Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Mena7 where you hiding?
Your 'museum' collects some unknown gems. Looking for the fresco of Mykenean marines backing one Libyan faction against another it was your Black Roman and Greek thread had the clearest image. Further proof of using the copious ES archive as document sourcing.
Can someone vet it?
Features not congruous with all other Fayoum portraiture.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
There are others but all posted above I could have sired them on a red-black, a mulatta, or an [off/near-]white mommy.
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About 21st century art inspired by Fayoum portraits. No need to Bridgerton Roman period Egyptian art. There's enough authentic African histoy being left untouched to go around misappropriating other peoples histories. Makes it look like Africa(ns) have none of their own.
=-=
In the empire's capital women's hair/wigs are often enough done in styles popular among today's ADOS/FBA and W Afrs. Were there African hair braiding salons in Rome?
posted
Beautiful images,even though the first one kinda looks fake. It might be because she looks like any sista on the street as to why I like the first pic the best.
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I honestly wonder whom the subjects of the Fayum portraits were. Phenotypes aside, their attire looks more Greek or Roman than native Egyptian to me. If they're supposed to be ethnically Egyptian, they sure show a lot of evidence for cultural Greco-Romanization.
posted
Its a work done my a modern Artist who is using the Fayuim style. Ill have to find the link to their work, I think its on Flickr if I remember correctly
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Mena7 where you hiding?
Your 'museum' collects some unknown gems. Looking for the fresco of Mykenean marines backing one Libyan faction against another it was your Black Roman and Greek thread had the clearest image. Further proof of using the copious ES archive as document sourcing.
Can someone vet it?
Features not congruous with all other Fayoum portraiture.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Mummy Portrait of Artemidorus, Early 2nd Centruy. Artist Unknown (Egyptian). Encaustic on limewood; L: 171 cm. overall. Hawara (Faiyum), Egypt, British Museum, London, England. Archive Source: Scholars Resource 9913
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^^^ his curl pattern... in fact all of the fayum in including the women have curl patterns that are not "european... but admixed/creole typical curl patterns
there is an artist that is doing roman statue recreations with AI & Photoshop...
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
There something weird about those statutes representation as real people,they look off with a stereotypical European face. There foreheads look incompatible with their faces.
That Hapshepsut looks like Sudanese singer Alsarah with a wider nose.
I had never really paid attention to the roman statues physiognomies before.. one would just assume yte people are yte people
What is shocking to me as I actually LOOK at these statues is how Irish/English they look.. and very unlike current Southern Italians today
the roman statues do not look like the famous Med Race
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posted
For me it would be like Brad Pitt and various white male actors in north American cinema.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Pt 1
Among themselves Europeans have a great Germanic/Romantic divide (alpine/slav Euros tend to either, pending geography). Nordicentrists and Medicentrists fight each other almost as much as both fight Blackcentrics. There's even a great divide between Greeks and Macedonians.
Paint residue on some statues suggest hair, eye, and skin color. My question is what does the recontructing artist use to base their choice of colors?
We can't tell it but Euros have just as many complexions as we do and many of them don't see brownblack through yallared when looking at us just brown.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: For me it would be like Brad Pitt and various white male actors in north American cinema.
Brad Pitt reads Nordic/Swede to me... Pitt is Americanized spelling of German Pitz
To me the Roman statues look like the current English and not the current Greeks or Romans..
quote: Among themselves Europeans have a great Germanic/Romantic divide (alpine/slav Euros tend to either, pending geography). Nordicentrists and Medicentrists fight each other almost as much as both fight Blackcentrics. There's even a great divide between Greeks and Macedonians.
Paint residue on some statues suggest hair, eye, and skin color. My question is what does the recontructing artist use to base their choice of colors?
I think I lean to the statues as Alpine def
Yes... Euro's def find distinction among themselves.. that is why Amerikkka has never had a President that is from the Med Race proper.. and I would inlcude some New world Latinos in the Med Race proper... Most Presidents have been English/German/Dutch/Irish/Scot
The guy is also using historical accounts of the Emperors to come up with some coloring
here is Septimus
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Didn't see YLB's reply before composing this post. But it's only natural dark skinned Amazigh Roman emperor Septimius Severus'd pop up. No images but Manilius' pen portrait gives general complexions of peoples from the 'Roman world' from the palest to the most color rich by geography. Iirc he lists four contrasted yte Euro skin colors. Also era paintings show us what hair eye and skin colors dominated in Roman Italy.
But the so-called olive complexion is pure horsemanure. Nobody has green skin and the only human skin colours
olives come in are black and red, Africans' tones as in --excuse me-- black nigger and red nigger.
And despite my protest it was a blue-eyed black haired pink skinned Greek woman hipped me to this fact and who knows olives better than Greek womens?
She say: I see yours but where's my skin?
=-=
Pt 2
Polychrome of Severus and Julia
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When the Eskenazi Museum reopens, in a year or two, it will host a special exhibition featuring the busts of Severus and Julia. To show the original polychromy, Abbe and Van Voorhis have considered projecting colored light on the statues for part of the day. (A set of friezes at the Ara Pacis museum, in Rome, have been presented this way, to pleasing effect.) Another idea is to present a video animation in which the color gradually appears on the two Roman busts, suggesting how successive layers of paint might have been applied.
Abbe and Van Voorhis will have to engage in some speculation, particularly when it comes to hair color and skin tone. They have no reason to believe that there wasn’t pigment on the skin or hair of the busts, but they have not found any traces of it. “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,” Abbe wrote to me, in an e-mail. “Classic neoclassical assumption!”
Later, in another e-mail, Abbe pointed out that much of the Roman élite “came from diverse-looking stock—Berber, Arab, Transylvanian, Danubian, Spanish, etc.” He also noted that sculptures of African people from the ancient world were sometimes carved from black stones, such as basalt, and then painted with reddish-brown pigments to create a lifelike effect. One such example, at the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe, in Hamburg, is the head of a young boy, from the first century B.C.; patches of mahogany-colored paint can still be seen on the nose and the cheeks.
A bust of a young African boy, sculpted in the first century B.C. Ancient sculptures of African people were often made of basalt and painted with reddish-brown layers to create a lifelike effect. Mahogany-colored paint is still visible on the boy’s face. Courtesy Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg
Severus was of Berber origin, from an élite family in Libya. Julia came from a priestly family in Emesa, Syria.
A panel painting of the couple, known as the Berlin Tondo, has survived: Severus has a chestnut-brown complexion and a grizzled gray beard; Julia is paler, with dark hair and eyes. The Tondo will help guide Abbe and Van Voorhis in their work on the busts, just as the Fayum portraits aided Verri.
=-=
No one [GIANT] please bother posting washed out photo images of that famous tondo like always happens to soften/hide the actual tone of dark skin in ancient art.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You so funny!!!
Hahahaa u jus lak Chump projecting your mess as somebody elses M O.
You data mine hard to find and post washed out images depicting false color/tint and have a whole history of it.
Why do you do it? Because in each case it's "the one you like better".
But why frown & clown when so many love you and your 'lesser the black better the show' washed out/altered imgs?
Now go on and blank out your useless 4 posts or even better data mine us up some new rarely seen imgs of Roman and ancient Greek faces, please. I know you can, but will you?
Thass all folks no more my attention for GIANT today too many can attest the above facts. Authentic always means direct from the museum holding the primary original vs ones with repro versions as I taught GIANT re Narmer's Palette etc. But beware touch ups, restorations, and refinishes.
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For those who didn't follow our new Amazigh(?) member's link, this is authenticity provided by the holder of the 'primary document'.
Death of Sophonisba (banquet scene) -20 a.C. - 25 d.C. Afficher en réalité augmentée
<< Display in augmented reality >>
Il quadro, delimitato da una cornice gialla, mostra una scena di banchetto che si svolge in un sontuoso ambiente caratterizzato da colonne che sostengono drappeggi.
<< The painting, delimited by a yellow frame, shows a banquet scene that takes place in a sumptuous environment characterized by columns supporting draperies. >>
Détails
Titre: Death of Sophonisba (banquet scene) Date de création: -20 a.C. - 25 d.C. Dimensions physiques: 78x112 cm Photo Credits: Luigi Spina Origin: Pompeii Museum Location: room LXXI Inv.: Inv. 8968
posted
I simply put up the wikipedia because it was convenient, like you have done numerous times
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Death of Sophonisba (banquet scene) -20 a.C. - 25 d.C. Afficher en réalité augmentée
Il quadro, delimitato da una cornice gialla, mostra una scena di banchetto che si svolge in un sontuoso ambiente caratterizzato da colonne che sostengono drappeggi.
Détails
Titre: Death of Sophonisba (banquet scene) Date de création: -20 a.C. - 25 d.C. Dimensions physiques: 78x112 cm Photo Credits: Luigi Spina Origin: Pompeii Museum Location: room LXXI Inv.: Inv. 8968 [/QB]
^^ this is a google link, not a link to the Museum. The picture may or may not be official
this is not the museum link either however this picture has the fame and inventory number on the frame
____________________________ VIII.2.39 Pompeii. Found 22nd July 1769. Wall painting of banquet scene in a colonnaded room.
Now in Naples Archaeological Museum. Inventory number 8968.
This was previously (apparently wrongly) identified as the death of Sophonisba or as Scipio and Sophonisba.
See Real Museo Borbonico, Vol. 1, Ta XXXIV.
See Helbig, W., 1868. Wandgemälde der vom Vesuv verschütteten Städte Campaniens. Leipzig: Breitkopf und Härtel. (1385) ____________________________________
So how could if be that the background in one is dark brown and in another with a textured cement like look? I'm not sure, maybe it was remounted but I don't know the details. The brown background if true is likely painted over later
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
OK now, replying on the serious side
There is no brown background. That's just where paint and plaster peeled off.
The authentic img from the holding museum photographer: Luigi Spina presented above can be compared with the one offered by Allposters photographer: Samuel Magal which has no official emblem of the museum. It's color may be the truest not at all washed out like the one from that book over in the Massinissa thread.
These two are both authenticated Inv.8968 The complexions above look true to life to me.
This one's from Rollers' Oxford published book. In my eye few skin tones there resemble those in real life.
Looking at the img in its museum frame w.inv # at bottom I'm supposing this is the actual mural right off the Pompeii wall it was painted on and has been matted and framed for display by the museum? Right? ??
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] There is no brown background. That's just where paint and plaster peeled off.
The authentic img from the holding museum presented above can be compared with the one offered by Allposters which has no official emblem of the museum. It's color may be the truest not at all washed out like the one from that book over in the Massinissa thread.
the official emblem is used on a google site URL so it is not clear to be if that is the Museum's photo or if the photo has been added to the museum logo but not by the museum
this area is drastically different and I'm trying to find out why. One is dark with no texture the other is much lighter and has texture, the blank areas. That is why I changed the source form the other thread's OP. The cement-like texture looked more authentic to me but now I'm not sure of the explanation for this difference but am investigating
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Mena7 where you hiding?
Your 'museum' collects some unknown gems. Looking for the fresco of Mykenean marines backing one Libyan faction against another it was your Black Roman and Greek thread had the clearest image. Further proof of using the copious ES archive as document sourcing.
Can someone vet it?
Features not congruous with all other Fayoum portraiture.
people have since pointed out that the top picture is modern
but what are you referring to in particular when you say " Features not congruous" ?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The museum's logo for one tells me the Google sponsored site is indeed by the museum. Unauthorized use surely carries legal consequences. But lemme dig deeper. Here ya go ...
quote:
Google Arts & Culture is a non-profit initiative. We work with cultural institutions and artists around the world. Together, our mission is to preserve and bring the world’s art and culture online so it’s accessible to anyone, anywhere.
Again, follow the link and click its links Don't be 'scarred' cos it ain't in English. Aïmane posted the link from a francophone land or ISP so it's in French? I dunno? Cos France has a claim on Naples Italy?
after 100% just keep clicking the zoom icon in the picture within the picture within the picture for unbelievable square millimetre detail. That 3rd lil frame is how you navigate this mega level.
=-=
Why I invited vetting the OP img and one other?
Paint quality and wideness temple to temple are a tip off. Widest is cheek to cheek in the Real McCoy's. Plus the cracks look more like paint than aged wood. Lovely as she is I'm pleased to know its factual 'provenance' as disclosed earlier by Thereal Jari and Doug.
after 100% just keep clicking the zoom icon in the picture within the picture within the picture for unbelievable square millimetre detail. That 3rd lil frame is how you navigate this mega level. [/QB]
I didn't notice that tool before and how high quality the image is
I could be wrong but this lower right portion looks like raw canvas showing through what seems to be brown paint on a canvas My theory is that these fragments could have been glued to a canvas or simply laid flat on top of it, that this was done a long time ago but might not be ancient
They may have later mounted the fragments in cement and framed it to put it on a wall in the museum to give it a more wall like background for the fragments I messaged an expert to see what the story is
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You're being mystified by underlying smoothed wall casting again.
It's no different than the missing portions here It's what's underneath not an overlay as you've once proposed. Try n remember this time. It applies to various such works worldwide.
1st the wall is smoothed in preparation for 2nd the plaster base that 3rd layout to full pigmenting will be applied to 4th execute a fresco
a painting done rapidly in watercolor on wet plaster on a wall or ceiling, so that the colors penetrate the plaster and become fixed as it dries.
• the fresco method of painting, used in Roman times and by the great masters of the Italian Renaissance including Giotto, Masaccio, and Michelangelo.
.
Again its where paint and plaster fell off the wall. It's nothing integral to the mural's composition. No competent individual will tell you otherwise.
The museum had to back, mat, and frame the surviving fresco fragment if that's wha's dere hangin' on da wall.
Hope you're enjoying yanking my chain but hopefully somebody'll take away something relevant from this 'Voyage of the Obvious'.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You're being mystified by underlying smoothed wall casting again.
It's no different than the missing portions here It's what's underneath not an overlay as you've once proposed. Try n remember this time. It applies to various such works worldwide.
1st the wall is smoothed in preparation for 2nd the plaster base that 3rd layout to full pigmenting will be applied to 4th execute a fresco
a painting done rapidly in watercolor on wet plaster on a wall or ceiling, so that the colors penetrate the plaster and become fixed as it dries.
• the fresco method of painting, used in Roman times and by the great masters of the Italian Renaissance including Giotto, Masaccio, and Michelangelo.
.
Again its where paint and plaster fell off the wall. It's nothing integral to the mural's composition. No competent individual will tell you otherwise.
The museum had to mat and frame the surviving fresco fragment if that's what's hanging on da wall.
Hope you're enjoying yanking my chain but hopefully somebody'll take away something relevant from this 'Voyage of the Obvious'.
Yes I know all this. Above the wall of the tomb. You can see the texture of the stone. On top of the stone are fragments of a painting which was once a complete layer of stucco plaster on the wall but much of it fell off
______________________________
.
. A similar look at on this bottom version but not the top
The top I believe is the painted plaster fragments on top of a canvas of brown
the bottom, these same fragments mounted into a cement-like modern material to resemble those fragments on the original wall
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^ OK kewl, Kitty
=-=
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: That Hapshepsut looks like Sudanese singer Alsarah with a wider nose.
Sfunny is genomics iinm shows at least one shared ancestral strain from Sudan north and westward to Morocco. Seen similar Alsarah facial bone structure in some Kenya highland ladies.
How does Alrima strike you for the man behind the lady in that Death of Sophonisba fresco. How far'm grasping?
=-=
So Leese, you n Thereal gonna show us the Two Brothers of Fayoum as Two modern maternal Brothers from da Bronx maybe?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Bzzzaapppt -- ouch. HEY! Just noticed the swastika.
On ES always out of the old something new huh?
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Don't forget this one of two "brothers".
I honestly wonder whom the subjects of the Fayum portraits were. Phenotypes aside, their attire looks more Greek or Roman than native Egyptian to me. If they're supposed to be ethnically Egyptian, they sure show a lot of evidence for cultural Greco-Romanization.
posted
They are so obviously brothers... typical in admixed people some siblings are lighter than others ... Yte people who are unfamiliar with admixed people would of course project whatever is in their subconscious minds on something to which they have no knowledge
this can happen over generations over time after initial admixture
I was watching a video on the Tuareg the "white" people of the Sahara... and Euro's crack me up
little things like thinking some of these people have totally straight hair do not understand how admix hair reacts in cold/dry and hot dry temps versus sticking that same person in 90% humidity..
also, the variety of hair textures in some Taureg families have ranges from 4c curls to straight...
this is also an indication of admixture could have occurred thousands of years ago before the transaharan slave trade
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Originally posted above on January 27, 2021 on by Tukuler:
Didn't see YLB's reply before composing this post. But it's only natural dark skinned ['Libyan'] Roman emperor Septimius Severus'd pop up. No images but Manilius' pen portrait gives general complexions of peoples from the 'Roman world' from the palest to the most color rich by geography. Iirc he lists four contrasted yte Euro skin colors. Also era paintings show us what hair eye and skin colors dominated in Roman Italy.
But the so-called olive complexion is pure horsemanure. Nobody has green skin and the only human skin colours
olives come in are black and red, Africans' tones as in --excuse me-- black nigger and red nigger.
And despite my protest it was a blue-eyed black haired pink skinned Greek woman hipped me to this fact and who knows olives better than Greek womens?
She say: I see yours but where's my skin?
=-=
Pt 2
Polychrome of Severus and Julia
=-=
When the Eskenazi Museum reopens, in a year or two, it will host a special exhibition featuring the busts of Severus and Julia. To show the original polychromy, Abbe and Van Voorhis have considered projecting colored light on the statues for part of the day. (A set of friezes at the Ara Pacis museum, in Rome, have been presented this way, to pleasing effect.) Another idea is to present a video animation in which the color gradually appears on the two Roman busts, suggesting how successive layers of paint might have been applied.
Abbe and Van Voorhis will have to engage in some speculation, particularly when it comes to hair color and skin tone. They have no reason to believe that there wasn’t pigment on the skin or hair of the busts, but they have not found any traces of it. “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,” Abbe wrote to me, in an e-mail. “Classic neoclassical assumption!”
Later, in another e-mail, Abbe pointed out that much of the Roman élite “came from diverse-looking stock—Berber, Arab, Transylvanian, Danubian, Spanish, etc.” He also noted that sculptures of African people from the ancient world were sometimes carved from black stones, such as basalt, and then painted with reddish-brown pigments to create a lifelike effect. One such example, at the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe, in Hamburg, is the head of a young boy, from the first century B.C.; patches of mahogany-colored paint can still be seen on the nose and the cheeks.
A bust of a young African boy, sculpted in the first century B.C. Ancient sculptures of African people were often made of basalt and painted with reddish-brown layers to create a lifelike effect. Mahogany-colored paint is still visible on the boy’s face. Courtesy Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg
Severus was of Berber origin, from an élite family in Libya. Julia came from a priestly family in Emesa, Syria.
A panel painting of the couple, known as the Berlin Tondo, has survived: Severus has a chestnut-brown complexion and a grizzled gray beard; Julia is paler, with dark hair and eyes. The Tondo will help guide Abbe and Van Voorhis in their work on the busts, just as the Fayum portraits aided Verri.
=-=
No one [GIANT] please bother posting washed out photo images of that famous tondo like always happens to soften/hide the actual tone of dark skin in ancient art.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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