posted
Since after all these years still mucho lotto whacko about Nubia. We have to deal with this concept so we may as well get it right. Khartoum Meroe Napata Kerma Wawat TaSeti
[trying to dig up the breakdown I posted not too long ago]
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Tukuler
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What is Nubia? Without defining Nubia confusion over the subject is possible.
Some people see a Nubia as everything upNile from the Egypt of the pharaohs even before the New Kingdom and even though the word wasn't used then.
Some folk see a Nubia as synonymous with a limited region no further south than the 2nd cataract.
Others see a border changing Nubia as Egyptian annexing rolled ever southward although New Kingdom Egyptians used the word Kush as in King's Son of Kush in that era.
Kush flexed its muscles and ripped, from various centers at various times, a territory from the junction of Blue and White Niles to the 1st catarct near Elephantine but it gets called Nubia too except for Egypt and the Levant (Meggido) when under its control. If so, southern Nubia (more or less all Meroe's territory) is south or upNile from Upper Nubia, 2nd to 4th cataract (Kerma - Napata). Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
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If so, southern Nubia (more or less all Meroe's territory) is south or upNile from Upper Nubia, 2nd to 4th cataract (Kerma - Napata).
There are those who can see no Nubia before the 4th century Noba take the stage and the word Nubia from Roman us of Nobatae (spelled a lot like Napata though far away from it).
So we come to Christian Nubia with Alwa south at the 6th cataract, Makuria in the Dongola Reach, and Nabatia 2nd to 1st cataracts.
Christian Makuri under Kalydosos whipped the Arabs forcing them to halt and come no closer south after they overan Egypt while spreading Islam near the 7th century's end.
Since then and up to the 14th century Arabs filtered in as "peaceful" traders and immigrants but it was a scimitar-less slow conquest via a half millennium long proselyting jihad.
In the middle of the 8th century the Makurian "King of Kings" Cyriacus invaded up to Lower Egypt ending Arab persecutions against the Copts their Christian co-religionists.
Tukuler
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In the middle of the 8th century the Makurian "King of Kings" Cyriacus invaded up to Lower Egypt ending Arab persecutions against the Copts their Christian co-religionists.
Nubia as an African bred and born polity was finished when the 16th century came in. After that "Arab" identity became the in thing after Arabian refugee influx in the wake of inter- Arab conflicts on the peninsula.
This was implemented upon Shakandu's treachery and enlistment of Arab aid to secure his usurpation of Makuria's throne. The same for Amai. Arabs of the numerous banu Kanz dominated Lower Nubia while the Guhayna Arabs dominated Upper Nubia.
The Shilluk Funj kingdom arose and Amara Dunqas held southern Nubia in the face of a confederated Arab onslaught. They did, however, eventually become Muslim. Funj government traded hands between Arabs and "Hamaji," as the Arabs dubbed Funj's unmixed blacks until the murderous Turk Muhammad Ali of the 19th century.
Tukuler
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What we see over millennia of history in the Nile Valley is a steady influx of Semitic speakers who from the start concentrated in Delta Lower Egypt precipitating ever southward marrying with Nile indigenees whose mixed progeny, and themselves, acquire rulership over the Nile Valley and usurp the identity of "true" Egyptian.
Whether symbolic or real Narmer fought them and limited their entry. Other pharaohs did so, the most notable ones were (part) Nehesi and birthed the Middle and New Kingdoms.
Napata stepped in to set things right for Egypt. Meroe blocked north Mediterranean conquests. Makaria barred mass Arab entry into Nubia and Makaria stepped in to set things right for Egypt.
Alwa's reaction to Arabs seems similar to Late Period Egypt's reaction to Persian designs and Funj went the way of the centuries long toll on Egypt where Semitic speakers precipitating ever southward marrying with Nile indigenees as they or their mixed progeny acquire rulership over the Nile Valley or over the minds of the rulers of the Nile Valley.
Today we see another bastion of wholly indigenous ancestry stem off largely indigenous ancestored Semitic speakers' aggression and draw another Nile Valley indigenee border like so many times in the past as they establish the nation of South Sudan.
Kenndo taught us about discreet lower upper and southern Nubias herePosts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Nubian Civilization.
"They" have defined "Nubia" geographically as
* Southern Nubia - central Sudan to 4th cataract * Upper Nubia - 4th to 2nd cataracts * Lower Nubia - 2nd to 1st cataracts (once to Gebel el Silsila)
Using those bounds for convenience I guess Nubian civilization starts with Early Khartoum (Khartoum Mesolithic) but I can see no collapse since Nubian culture(s) continue to survive and thrive.
Numerous polities appeared and disappeared through time in the given region. Each of them is as "Nubian" as the next so I can't subscribe to Meroe's end as any collapse of Nubian civilization, the Arabs for sure impacted and curtailed many "Nubian" ethnies and polities.
Yet and still you have these magnificent peoples carrying on from the Neolithic, pre-Dynastic, Dynastic, Classical, Christian, earlier Muslim, and modern Islamic epochs with polities ranging from Sai, Ta Seti, Kerma, Kush, Meroe, Nobatae, Alwa, Makuria, Nabatia, even Funj.
Each are part and parcel of the Great Nubian Civilization building the living culture(s) that neither the bloody Turk Muhammed Ali nor the dams of this and the last century have caused to collapse.
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Agreed. There was only Nubt and Egyptologists Falsely renamed it Naqada because if they still used the term Nubt then they would no longer be able to refer to Sudan as Nubia and it would become more apparent that the present day Nubians originate from Nubt and not Sudan. Basically without the term Naqada Egyptologists would be forced to recognize Todays Nubians as Egyptians.
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Tukuler
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I ain't got time to back and forth with you on this. Bumped threads and new post are just rehashing what I've developed over the last 16 years. Your post adds nothing to this thread nor does it refute it. I'm not interested in debate and you and me 'discussed' this already. We don't agree and let's just leave it at that.
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Tukuler
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Thx Ish, this gives post three some visual geography. U gotta Funj map?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Don't ig the alternative.
Our word Nubia ultimately derives from the 4th cent Noba people via the Latin word Nobatae.
Historical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Nubia By Richard A. Lobban
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wikipedia:
Nobatia
Nobatia /noʊˈbeɪʃə/ or Nobadia (/noʊˈbeɪdiə/; Greek: Νοβαδία, Nobadia; Old Nubian: ⲙⲓⲅⲓⲧⲛ︦ ⲅⲟⲩⲗ, Migitin Goul) was a late antique kingdom in Lower Nubia. Together with the two other Nubian kingdoms, Makuria and Alodia, it succeeded the kingdom of Kush. After its establishment in around 400, Nobadia gradually expanded by defeating the Blemmyes in the north and incorporating the territory between the second and third Nile cataract in the south. In 543, it converted to Coptic Christianity.
_____________________________
wikipedia uses the spelling "Nuba" to refer to Noba
wikipedia:
Nuba peoples (Noba)
The Nuba peoples are various indigenous ethnic groups who inhabit the Nuba Mountains of South Kordofan state in Sudan, encompassing multiple distinct peoples that speak different languages which belong to at least two unrelated language families. Estimates of the Nuba population vary widely; the Sudanese government estimated that they numbered 1.07 million in 2003.[1]
The term should not be confused with the Nubians, an ethnic group speaking the Nubian languages, although the Hill Nubians, who live in the Nuba Mountains, are also considered part of the Nuba geographic grouping of peoples.
Hill Nubians are a group of Nubian peoples who inhabit the northern Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan state, Sudan. They speak the Hill Nubian languages. Despite their scattered presence and linguistic diversity, they all refer to themselves as Ajang and call their language Ajangwe, "the Ajang language".
Origin Canadian linguist Robin Thelwall believes that the Hill Nubians probably didn't migrate to the Nuba Mountains from Nubia, considering their linguistic divergence, and instead probably reached the Nuba Mountains from central Kordofan during the earliest Nubian migrations. Joseph Greenberg believes that any split between Hill and Nile Nubian must have occurred at least 2,500 years before present.[
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The Historical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Nubia also talks about the confusing history of some of these terms. So if the word Nubia derives from the 4th cent Noba people via the Latin word Nobatae. If I am not mistaken that means the contemporary Noba (Nuba) people are not the same Noba people .
_______________________________________
Historical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Nubia By Richard A. Lobban
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Nubian Civilization.
"They" have defined "Nubia" geographically as
* Southern Nubia - central Sudan to 4th cataract * Upper Nubia - 4th to 2nd cataracts * Lower Nubia - 2nd to 1st cataracts (once to Gebel el Silsila)
Using those bounds for convenience I guess Nubian civilization starts with Early Khartoum (Khartoum Mesolithic) but I can see no collapse since Nubian culture(s) continue to survive and thrive.
Numerous polities appeared and disappeared through time in the given region. Each of them is as "Nubian" as the next so I can't subscribe to Meroe's end as any collapse of Nubian civilization, the Arabs for sure impacted and curtailed many "Nubian" ethnies and polities.
Yet and still you have these magnificent peoples carrying on from the * Neolithic, * pre-Dynastic, * Dynastic, * Classical, * Christian, * earlier Muslim, and * modern Islamic epochs with polities ranging from * Sai, * Ta Seti, * Kerma, * Kush, * Meroe, * Nobatae, * Alwa, * Makuria, * Nabatia, even * Funj.
Each are part and parcel of the Great Nubian Civilization building the living culture(s) that neither the bloody [Albanian] Muhammed Ali nor the dams of this and the last century have caused to collapse.
* Southern Nubia - central Sudan to 4th cataract * Upper Nubia - 4th to 2nd cataracts * Lower Nubia - 2nd to 1st cataracts (once to Gebel el Silsila)
Using those bounds for convenience I guess Nubian civilization starts with Early Khartoum (Khartoum Mesolithic) but I can see no collapse since Nubian culture(s) continue to survive and thrive.
Numerous polities appeared and disappeared through time in the given region. Each of them is as "Nubian" as the next so I can't subscribe to Meroe's end as any collapse of Nubian civilization, the Arabs for sure impacted and curtailed many "Nubian" ethnies and polities.
Yet and still you have these magnificent peoples carrying on from the * Neolithic, * pre-Dynastic, * Dynastic, * Classical, * Christian, * earlier Muslim, and * modern Islamic epochs with polities ranging from * Sai, * Ta Seti, * Kerma, * Kush, * Meroe, * Nobatae, * Alwa, * Makuria, * Nabatia, even * Funj.
Each are part and parcel of the Great Nubian Civilization building the living culture(s) that neither the bloody [Albanian] Muhammed Ali nor the dams of this and the last century have caused to collapse.
The problem is that these people that you listed in ancient times did not hail from or identify with nor were part of any federated ethnostate or political entity called "Nubia". And even to this day within Sudan itself, these groups often consider themselves as distinct peoples and cultures. The Noba are not the same as the Nuer are not the same as the Beja and not the same as the "Nubians" from Aswan.
At the end of the day, when Egyptologists say "Nubia" they mean "black folks to the South of Egypt". And we know for a fact that the people of Kemet did not see things or describe things that way because first off BLACK was not a name they used for OTHER people but themselves. Likewise the word "Nub" as in "gold" was another sacred concept not used for any other people outside of Kemet proper.
So while yes Sudan, Egypt and "Nubia" are just names, if you want to be technical the most appropriate term to use would be Sudanese instead of Nubians if you are referring to ancient populations in the boundaries of modern Sudan. "Nubia" as a concept means more than that, as it technically implies "all blacks" to the South of Egypt and this is technically how Egyptology uses it. The explicit or implicit distinction being that blacks were foreign to Egypt. And we know for a fact that Africans have never EVER unified under a single identity as blacks, even to this day. Except of course when in Europe or the Americas and so forth. Just like Asians never unified under a single identity as Asians and Europeans never unified under a single identity as white until the 1500s and colonization.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The problem is that these people that you listed in ancient times did not hail from or identify with nor were part of any federated ethnostate or political entity called "Nubia".
.
Er um uh nah look now but that's precisely my point.
Again ... only the ppl in southern Egypt and northern Sudan calling themselves so and seeing such as their ethnicity and co-joint homeland for these over ten centuries are Nubian proper.
TaNehesi is a proposal for the entire ancient region but you and I both know nobody's going to stop using Nubia any more than anybody started using Wo'se or No-Amun for Thebes that even you don't do yourself.
If you prefer then substitute some obscurant non-personally offending term in Great Nubian Civilization. Try the Great Ancient Sudan and Far South Egypt Civilization or whatever is more important than recognizing an intact surving civilization dating to pre- neolithic times.
Instead of just bitchin please post something about that, thx.
BTW Egyptologist don't limit their Nubians to black people and at least since Reisner never have.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The problem is that these people that you listed in ancient times did not hail from or identify with nor were part of any federated ethnostate or political entity called "Nubia".
.
Er um uh nah look now but that's precisely my point.
Again ... only the ppl in southern Egypt and northern Sudan calling themselves so and seeing such as their ethnicity and co-joint homeland for these over ten centuries are Nubian proper.
TaNehesi is a proposal for the entire ancient region but you and I both know nobody's going to stop using Nubia any more than anybody started using Wo'se or No-Amun for Thebes that even you don't do yourself.
If you prefer then substitute some obscurant non-personally offending term in Great Nubian Civilization. Try the Great Ancient Sudan and Far South Egypt Civilization or whatever is more important than recognizing an intact surving civilization dating to pre- neolithic times.
Instead of just bitchin please post something about that, thx.
BTW Egyptologist don't limit their Nubians to black people and at least since Reisner never have.
My problem with "Nubia" is no different than using the word "France" in 5,0000 years ago. There was no France 5,000 years ago. And yes, when they say Nubia today, most Egyptologists use it as a synonym for black folks, as in the "Black Pharaohs"
The first problem is that the term as used implies there was some sort of unified ethno-state to the South of Kemet where all the people shared a language, culture, religion and political organization from Aswan to the 5th cataract. There was not. Kemet was the first nation state with a formal national identity, religion and culture. And there was no such thing to the South of the Nile.
Even to this day, many of the ethnic groups in Sudan aren't unified. For example the "Nuba people" aren't a unified political group (ethno state) in Sudan.
Then you have the issue of languages. There is no agreement on the actual languages used by the various groups to the south of Kemet. There is a "Nubian Language" group but it is mostly based on languages spoken in Medieval Sudan.
Not to mention most of the populations in Africa going back over 4,000 years have been nomadic. They didn't settle in one place long enough to make them permanent settlements. So as people came and went along the Nile in the region over 4,000 years ago, lumping them together makes no sense. And it especially makes no sense to link those ancient groups with modern groups as a continuous monolithic ethnic identity.
Now we know that part of the basis for this concept of "Nubia" comes from the art of Kemet. But the people of Kemet had no such term as "Nubia" as we have discussed many times. The closest thing to Nubian in heiroglyphics would have been related to the word "Nub" which means gold in Mdu Neter. And thus "Nubian" would roughly equate to "golden one" or "golden people" and we know that there is no such term used for people to the South along the Nile. The only place we see this term used in this way was in reference to the town Nubt which was named the "gold city" because it was a center for the gold trade. We also know that there was no singular term used for all the various groups to the South just like there was no singular term used for the people to the North and West. Various terms were used. But none of these other terms are used in reference to modern day peoples and there is no equivalent of "Nubian" for any of these other regions. And we also know that there is no reference to the term "black" for people to the South along the Nile either in Mdu Neter. Both the terms "black" (kem) and "golden" (Nub) were sacred in Kemet and would not have been used to refer to hated foreigners to the South along the Nile.
Yet, even with that, scholars, including black scholars are still promoting this concept of a "Nubia" to this day with very recent videos. And in many of these videos they are identifying "Nubians" purely based on skin color in art from Kemet and mostly not much else. And the purpose of this is because they want to promote this idea of African history starting with Nubia. Any scholar who claims that African history starts with Nubia should be seen as promoting an agenda. African history is over 200,000 years old and does not start with anything called Nubia. And as such promoting "Nubia" this way is just another way to segregate Nile Valley history as if the border of Africa starts at Aswan. And that is simply how I see it being used and having been used going all the way back to Reisner.
So the point is that if laymen want to use the term then fine. But as a scholar using that term is simply incorrect because the FACT is that no such place, ethnic group or state called "Nubia" existed before the Medieval era. And anybody using it prior to then to refer to all groups to the South along the Nile going back over 4,000 years is just incorrect. Archaeologists typically use generic terms to refer to groups in prehistory with no writing or language, such as the beaker culture or corded ware culture and so forth. Only along the Nile are they determined to prop up this non existent concept of "Nubian" going back 5,000 years when they know full well nobody along the Nile used that term and had such an identity going that far back in history.
Overall the term I prefer is Nile Valley/Saharan Pastoral cultural complex. Kemet and all the various cultures along the Nile were part of the same cultural complex with the primary difference being that Kemet developed writing, math and architecture and a formal system of governance whereas other groups along the Nile did not. But they still shared the same cultural elements and practices as an African cultural complex.... And the roots of that complex all came from the same region between Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan as found in the Halfan, Qadan and Sebilan phases of Nile Valley history.
Tukuler
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Oooh, the agenda buzzword. Shiver and quake. On the for real side who doesn't have an agenda?
I'ma start pointing out everytime you use a modern Indo European word for any ancient or prehistoric place name or people to see how rigorously across the board you're applying your terminology agenda to yourself outside the narrow concern of the middle Nile basin. Everybody knows current nation states and their boundaries didn't exist before modern times. Yet w/o such references noboby will know who what or where anybody's talking about.
Realizing all terms today in English never were used or even existed in ancient or pre-historic times any where in the world
A very good lecture on "Nubian" presence in Phile temple space,it seems they were governing the space at least in part, another surprise is the that use of the name Ta-Seti was still in use during the GrecoRoman era, along with Ta-Nahsi.
A very influential Nubian family called Wyhakia ran the place for perhaps centuries, they funded the Temple and worked on the behalf of the Meroetic kings, one other Nubian family the Abareta ,claimed his family were goldsmith for 300 generations, I dont know what a generation meant to him, but if it's anything close to ours, he is saying with certainty that his family's occupation is 6000 yrs old like wow!! that's one hellova family history. This claim kinda remind me of the Shabaka stone,where he caused a worm eaten text written, written on leather by his forefathers to be written a new. Pls Klik and view.
.
Thx Bru
Can add 'Philly' to the Buhen Exchange Place as a space claimed to be Egypt's but under control of a Nubia through much if not the majority of it's time.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oooh, the agenda buzzword. Shiver and quake. On the for real side who doesn't have an agenda?
I'ma start pointing out everytime you use a modern Indo European word for any ancient or prehistoric place name or people to see how rigorously across the board you're applying your terminology agenda to yourself outside the narrow concern of the middle Nile basin. Everybody knows current nation states and their boundaries didn't exist before modern times. Yet w/o such references noboby will know who what or where anybody's talking about.
Realizing all terms today in English never were used or even existed in ancient or pre-historic times any where in the world
A very good lecture on "Nubian" presence in Phile temple space,it seems they were governing the space at least in part, another surprise is the that use of the name Ta-Seti was still in use during the GrecoRoman era, along with Ta-Nahsi.
A very influential Nubian family called Wyhakia ran the place for perhaps centuries, they funded the Temple and worked on the behalf of the Meroetic kings, one other Nubian family the Abareta ,claimed his family were goldsmith for 300 generations, I dont know what a generation meant to him, but if it's anything close to ours, he is saying with certainty that his family's occupation is 6000 yrs old like wow!! that's one hellova family history. This claim kinda remind me of the Shabaka stone,where he caused a worm eaten text written, written on leather by his forefathers to be written a new. Pls Klik and view.
Actually the way I would say it is that all of the deities in Kemet originated in the Nile from the South. The presence of Southerners at Philae only reaffirms that the culture of Kemet was ultimately of African origin not "Nubian" origin. Again, the roots of all the Nile Valley cultural practices are between Upper Egypt and Sudan going back 20,000 years ago. Yet note that no Nubiologist includes the Halfan, Qadan and Sebilan phases of Nile Valley history in the timeline of "Nubia" even though these occur in the exact same region. This is why I mention there being an agenda because they aren't consistent in their usage of the term.And it was from the South that the culture was renewed periodically up until the late period when it was finally destroyed by invading foreigners. The point being that they treat the Greeks and Romans as culturally Egyptian than the indigenous people of the Nile Valley. Calling them "Nubian" is simply implying a "foreign" element in Kemet which was never the case as all of these cultures were African in the first place. This talk of so-called "Nubians" at Philae doesn't point out the fact that the earliest examples of cattle burials and megaliths originated at Nabta Playa which technically is also "Nubian". So again, using this term "Nubian" implies that "Foreigners" were traveling to Aswan to worship an "Egyptian" deity that was given to them by conquest. It totally misses the point that Hathor and Isis were both African in origin and Hathor specifically was said to originate from the South along with Isis.
quote: 9Lower Nubia is then considered as that northerly part of Nubia, starting at the First Cataract and stretching upstream the Nile, crossing the national border of the modern republics of Egypt and Sudan and ending at the Second Cataract or slightly upstream of it, in the area of the Sudanese town Wadi Halfa (see the map in figure 1). The region between those first two Nile cataracts is relatively uniform with an extremely dry desert landscape fringing the shores of the Nile. However, it has periodically been wetter and less hostile explaining the continuous re-habitation of the area in ancient times(Welsby, 2001). Today, the Nile Valley in this region is to a large extent submerged under the watermasses of Lake Nasser but up until the second half of the last century, the Nilein this regionmade a slow and steady course though the Nubian sandstone, falling not more than 28 meters from the Second to the First Cataract(Hinkel, 1978:11). At the mouths of the larger wadis9alluvial deposits resulted in irregularly spread agricultural villages along the wide and calm river. In the geographical sense, this was the Nubian region that was most similar to the landscape of the Egyptian Nile Valley(Adams, 1977:24–25). Today, most of Lower Nubia lies within modern Egypt and constitutes its very southerly part along the river
And this isn't about English vs other languages. The fact is that the cultures between the 1st and 4th Cataracts were never part of any organized, centralized or unified political and ethnic identity called "Nubia" going back 4,000 years. It is simply false, because the term "Nubia" only came into use in the Nile Valley during the Medieval era. The people of Kemet did not use the term "Nubia" and there is no evidence of any groups to the South using it either again until the Medeival era. Just like nobody used the term "France" 5,0000 years ago either. And you don't see archaeologists labeling cultures 5,000 years ago as "French".
Yet they insist on using the term "Nubian" because they want to treat the region below Aswan as "African" culture and part of "black" history, while everything above Aswan to the North is considered "Mediterranean" or "Near Eastern" history. And this is the point I am making. All of these cultures came from the same root along the Nile and in the Sahara so this distinction between "black" Nubia and "Mediterranean" Egypt going back 5,000 years is simply nonsense history.
Also, the title of the Video is "The Goddess Isis and the Kingdom of Meroe", but the Meroites did not call themselves "Nubians". They were called "Meroites". And at that time the border of Egypt was pretty much at the Second cataract(Abu Simbel), so anybody living in Aswan was not "Nubian" but Egyptian.... And the border of Egypt has been at Abu Simbel since the 18th Dynasty. And Ta Seti is the region between the 1st and Second Cataract. Ta Seti is not and was never the same as Kush or Meroe. And the fact that they actually used the term Ta Seti right into the late period proves what I am saying that this concept of a monolithic entity called "Nubia" didn't exist at that time. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with these simple facts. Not to mention she doesn't also point out that Gebel Barkal was identified as the home of the god Amun which is another African deity found in Kemet. So are we claiming that all these African deities were picked up and worshiped in Kemet by people of Near Eastern or Mediterranean origin? It makes absolutely no sense. Yet this is distinctly what is being implied here. Not even going into the fact that she has another video that I already posted where she claims "Nubian" dancers were present in the worship of Hathor going back to the Middle Kingdom. And then also there is the worship of Amun which during the 18th Dynasty extended from Luxor to Gebel Barkal. So this late period worship of Isis by so-called "Nubians" simply misses the whole point.
A book describing the temples of Isis in Philae as primarily of Saite origins leading up to the Greco Roman period:
The significance here is that when the Romans conquered Egypt, they had to contend with the Armies of Kush at Meroe (not Nubia)in the person of the Candaces (female Kushite rulers) in the 1st Century CE. Eventually they reached a peace deal and Meroe was allowed to Rule the upper Nile South of Aswan. And this is where the video of Miss Ashby comes into play. Also, the Candaces of Meroe are considered as part of the history of the Ethiopian empire.
As for Nubiology itself it is primarily centered on the time period from 2,000 BCE (Kerma) to the Medieval Era.
quote: every great archaeological discovery is a milestone in recreating the past. That was true also in the case of the discovery of the medieval cathedral in Faras. Called “a miracle from Faras”, it not only turned out to be a scien-tific sensation but also led to the emergence of a new discipline, nubiology. Before Faras research on ancient nubia was conducted from the per-spective of ancient egypt; only later did nubiology take its rightful place. The wall paintings from Faras are a crown jewel of the national Museum in Warsaw collection, recently reopened in a new and highly climatic ex-hibition. Having been the object of scientific research for several dozen years, they have contributed to the extended studies of several genera-tions of Polish nubiologists and will most certainly continue to be an in-spiration for young researchers from all over the world. This volume by Stefan Jakobielski, who participated in the excavations in Faras from the very beginning, crowns the long-standing research on the chronology of the paintings and will remain for a long time a road sign and a model for research of the highest standard.
Yet they insist on using the term "Nubian" because they want to treat the region below Aswan as "African" culture and part of "black" history, while everything above Aswan to the North is considered "Mediterranean" or "Near Eastern" history. And this is the point I am making. All of these cultures came from the same root along the Nile and in the Sahara so this distinction between "black" Nubia and "Mediterranean" Egypt going back 5,000 years is simply nonsense history.
Would one of these names be better name for the museum?
Museum of Ancient Sudan
or
Museum of Ta-Nehisi
or
The Museum of Kush
or
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Tukuler
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I'll continue using Nubia so the world knows what I'm talking about. I will qualify with precision exactly which Nubia I mean by using the locale town/city kingdom or empire names under the Nubia umbrella, i.e., the middle Nile basin.
I share your misgivings but think Sahara much worse a term than Nubia. The Tropic of Cancer more or less bisects it so in reality is it not Tropical North Africa?
Then there's the Sahara Pump concept that posits that desert is the agent activating population movement, plant life, and waterway systems. The Sahara Pump Myth (link) The Sahara Sponge (link) The last with apologies to Zar for any untoward tone unrealized at the time. With the best intentions I can still come off so inadvertantly 'obanoxoius'.
Yet the West African Monsoon is what rained marshes, rivers, lakes, filled subterranean aquifers and attracted Sudanese, ie, blacks from as far south as Tanzania to come and inhabit a region no more than an expansion of their already familiar savanna terrain.
They were just expanding north and west in pursuit of food, the river lake grassland fish poultry and quadrupedss they knew all along.
Reason has Tropical North Africa a probable place originating earliest Senegal-Congo Nile-Sahra speakers' paternal haplogroups during Tropical North Africa's last West African Monsoon Optimum and retreat.
No, not after the last Ice Age. Africa knew no Ice Ages. Africa knew Monsoon Ages as in the last given link.
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Big problem I see in replacing ethnocentric accepted mainstream academic nomenclature is the unwieldiness of proper descriptive names. Who'll use Tropical North Africa instead of 3 syllable Sahara which is rightfully 2 syllable Sahra? Or West African Monsoon maximum and its optimums instead of post-Ice Age (or whatever) when early and mid Holocene is easier on the letter count?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'll continue using Nubia so the world knows what I'm talking about. I will qualify with precision exactly which Nubia I mean by using the locale town/city kingdom or empire names under the Nubia umbrella, i.e., the middle Nile basin.
I share your misgivings but think Sahara much worse a term than Nubia. The Tropic of Cancer more or less bisects it so in reality is it not Tropical North Africa?
Then there's the Sahara Pump concept that posits that desert is the agent activating population movement, plant life, and waterway systems. The Sahara Pump Myth (link) The Sahara Sponge (link) The last with apologies to Zar for any untoward tone unrealized at the time. With the best intentions I can still come off so inadvertantly 'obanoxoius'.
Yet the West African Monsoon is what rained marshes, rivers, lakes, filled subterranean aquifers and attracted Sudanese, ie, blacks from as far south as Tanzania to come and inhabit a region no more than an expansion of their already familiar savanna terrain.
They were just expanding north and west in pursuit of food, the river lake grassland fish poultry and quadrupedss they knew all along.
Reason has Tropical North Africa a probable place originating earliest Senegal-Congo Nile-Sahra speakers' paternal haplogroups during Tropical North Africa's last West African Monsoon Optimum and retreat.
No, not after the last Ice Age. Africa knew no Ice Ages. Africa knew Monsoon Ages as in the last given link.
=-=-=
Big problem I see in replacing ethnocentric accepted mainstream academic nomenclature is the unwieldiness of proper descriptive names. Who'll use Tropical North Africa instead of 3 syllable Sahara which is rightfully 2 syllable Sahra? Or West African Monsoon maximum and its optimums instead of post-Ice Age (or whatever) when early and mid Holocene is easier on the letter count?
The standard for archaeology when dealing with cultures with no written language and other self identifying symbols of state and culture is to use the material artifacts as a primary cultural reference. So just like they have the Halfan, Sebilan and Qadan cultures they could simply have another set of terms for the cultural features found among various groups along the Nile between Aswan and the 5th Cataract that didn't have a written language of their own.... They do this everywhere else for prehistoric (pre-literate) populations:
The only time they start specifically identifying ethnic/national identities is once evidence of organized settlements and civilizations emerge that can be uniquely identified by name.
Technically all of the Nile Valley was part of the same cultural complex including both the Nation State of Kemet and the various groups to the South and in the nearby Sahara. The primary distinction between the two within this complex is one had evolved into a settled nation state with a named identity while the others remained pastoral nomads right up to the 1st millennium BC when they adopted hieroglyphic script..
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The standard for archaeology when dealing with cultures with no written language and other self identifying symbols of state and culture is to use the material artifacts as a primary cultural reference. So just like they have the Halfan, Sebilan and Qadan cultures they could simply have another set of terms for the cultural features found among various groups along the Nile between Aswan and the 5th Cataract that didn't have a written language of their own.... They do this everywhere else for prehistoric (pre-literate) populations:
The only time they start specifically identifying ethnic/national identities is once evidence of organized settlements and civilizations emerge that can be uniquely identified by name.
Technically all of the Nile Valley was part of the same cultural complex including both the Nation State of Kemet and the various groups to the South and in the nearby Sahara. The primary distinction between the two within this complex is one had evolved into a settled nation state with a named identity while the others remained pastoral nomads right up to the 1st millennium BC when they adopted hieroglyphic script..
The civilizations in the Nile Valley were not illiterate.Kemit was not the only Nile Valley civilization with writing. They had been using the Thinite script for 10,000 years. This reality is evident in the fact that the pottery and ancient monuments along with syllabic signs were all based on Thinite.
The first syllabic writing system of Africans was the Thinite script. This writing was used first by Blacks in Nubia, like the Niger-Congo people who migrated out of this region into the rest of Africa.
The Thinite script provides many of the signs that are included in later scripts used by Africans.
In Nubia, Black Africans were using Thinite symbols before the rise of Egypt to record their ideas and report on important events.
The first inscriptions written in Thinite including the Gobekli Tepe monuments, Inscriptions on the Sphinx and etc., were written in the Mande language which was used as a lingua franca in much of the Nile valley that adhered to the Kushite federation.
This writing was later used by Africans to write inscriptions throughout Middle Africa.
The evidence of this writing is found throughout the Sahara. By the time Mande speaking people settled Dar Tichitt they left numerous inscriptions.
The people of Dar Tichitt were Mande speakers. These Mande speaking people also lived in the Fezzan where they were called Garamante/Garamandes. The Garamante settled Crete and are recognized as the Eteo-Cretans or Minoans.
As you can see from the above chart the Linear A signs and Mande/Manding signs are identical. If you look careful you will note that Africans, or Black people had also taken their writing system to Anatolia were your ancestors were living in the Caucasus mountains as hunter-gatherers.
The Kemites when they broke away from the Kushite "Confederation" introduced the Egyptian Hieroglyphics , Hieratic and Demotic. These writing system should not be seen as a monolithic. Each writing system came into popularity as different groups ruled the Egyptian Confederation.
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