posted
Cultural Currents between North African and Spanish Levant rock art date back to the Mesolithic -
World Heritage List - Mediterranean Rock Art (Spain) No. 874
"The rock art of eastern Spain is a cultural phenomenon that is exclusive to the Mediterranean basin of the Iberian peninsula.... The closest parallels are to be found in North Africa,although the subject matter and techniques are very different."
p. 28 The Rock Art of Texas Indians, 1996.
"It is a product of the Mesolithic period dated between 10,000 and 5000 B.C. " p. 28 The Rock Art of Texas Indians
“While the affiliation of Spanish Levant art with the Franco-Cantabrian would seem to be remote or nonexistent , it is on the other hand, stylistically similar to some found in North Africa, the Sahara and South Africa. In fact, eastern Spain, Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia may prove to be a single entity so far as rock art is concerned (Graziosi, 1941: 279)."
Art of the Spanish Levant
p. 67 Rock Art of the Spanish Levant Antonio B. Martinez
"...the use of perspective tordue must remain in suspense for depicting the horns and antlers of animals depicted seen in profile is a convention common to both cave art and Levantine paintings. According to Brueil, it was first used in the Perigordian ...the same convention is found in neolithic paintings in North Africa and even later in situations which can have nothing to do with the neolithic." p. 67 Rock Art of the Spanish Levant Antonio B. Martinez
"The chronological attributions of Saharan rock arts have followed a pattern that is rather similar to that which we have noted in the Spanish Levantine rock art."
Rock Art of Spain
Rock Art of Chad
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posted
^ It is all the work of a Caucasian race that dispersed and diffused from Siberia to South Africa Scandinavia to Arabia and all the spaces in between! LOLPosts: 26279 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ LOL The color actually matches closer to the rock art of Chad. Unless you think Minoans were living in Chad. Nice try, lyinass but nobody is falling for your stupid strawman.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26279 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Interesting. It is not impossible that Africans were in Southern Europe. But what happended to them where is their genetic signature? They were either wiped back or chased back to African continent in which case Europeans would likely follow behind them. Also most of Spanish Levatine art dates from the noelithic.
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posted
I was looking at more Rock Art from the Spanish Levant. And noticed that the dress of the women reminded me a bit of some depictions of Minoan women I remembered from a long time ago.
These are Iberian women presumably dancing around a phallic figure. Notice the women's dress.. shape etc.
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posted
^^^^ Clearly the Minoan civilization had an African Influence..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Another clueless idiot. What are the African clades still present in Europe he ask…? There are three Major African clades on the male side. A, B and E(PN2). –E- is found in southern Europe. There are even trace amounts of –B-. End of discussion. On the female it is (L). Still found from 10-20% in extant Southern Europeans. Why even entertain this fool. Ignore the idiot. He is not worth the energy expended typing. LOL!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Another clueless idiot. What are the African clades still present in Europe he ask…? There are three Major African clades on the male side. A, B and E(PN2). –E- is found in southern Europe. There are even trace amounts of –B-. End of discussion. On the female it is (L). Still found from 10-20% in extant Southern Europeans. Why even entertain this fool. Ignore the idiot. He is not worth the energy expended typing. LOL!
Yes E is found in Europe. In the Balkans is believed to arrived via the Levant in the late neolithic. The people who brought it that likely weren't even Black.
Most of the E in South West Europe is a different variant, the kind found among North African Berbers, brought to Spain during the Moorish invasion.
And is L found in 10 to 20% of Europeans?
That's more than misleading. There are certain communities in Iberia where it is as high as 20%. The mean frequncy is less than 4 percent! Most of that also likely came with the Moors.
"Haplogroup L lineages are relatively infrequent (1% or less) throughout Europe with the exception of Iberia where frequencies as high as 22% have been reported and some regions of Italy where frequencies as high as 2 to 3% have been found.
In Iberia the mean frequency of Haplogroup L lineages reaches 3.83% and the frequency is higher in Portugal (5.83%) than in Spain (2.9% average) and without parallel in the rest of Europe. In both countries frequencies vary widely between regions with increase frequencies observed for Madeira (Portugal), Southern Portugal, Cordoba (Southern Spain) and North Western Castile (Spain).[22] In the Autonomous regions of Portugal, L haplogroups constituted about 13% of the lineages in Madeira, significantly more than in the Azores."
Pereira L, Cunha C, Alves C, Amorim A (April 2005). "African female heritage in Iberia: a reassessment of mtDNA lineage distribution in present times". Human Biology 77 (2): 213–29.
You have been smacked down fool.
Won't you get up and wipe the dirt off your face..I wanna smack you again!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Clearly the Minoan civilization had an African Influence..
Perhaps. It had ties with Egypt and supposedly with Libya. But their are definite influences form Anatolia for sure.
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posted
This dick is really clueless. Tripping over his own stupidity. First, Africans were “chased” out of Europe followed by referencing a study that states African lineages are still within extant European populations. Jeeeeze!!!! Why waste my energy. I am out!
BTW – all subclades of E is “a different type”. LOL!!!
He is not sure WHAT he is saying or WHAT he believes. If I was him I would shut my mouth about things I know nothing about. Stop repeating dogma.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This dick is really clueless. Tripping over his own stupidity. First, Africans were “chased” out of Europe followed by referencing a study that states African lineages are still within extant European populations. Jeeeeze!!!! Why waste my energy. I am out!
BTW – all subclades of E is “a different type”. LOL!!!
He is not sure WHAT he is saying or WHAT he believes. If I was him I would shut my mouth about things I know nothing about. Stop repeating dogma.
You're right why waste your energy? Why not devote your time to things that your intellectual ability is more suited for...like Saturday morning cartoons.
Just the same, let me show you what you missed. The study did say that they believed that some African DNA may have made it's way into Europe in the LGM. Most so called African lineages extant in Europe are not reflective of of an African presence in Meolithic Europe as Dana is alluding to. The majority of it especially in Spain can be traced to the Moors in historic times. And the reason I mentioned the different clades because the type of E that is found in Spain is largely E-m81, which is found mostly among Berbers, not much among Sub Saharan folk. And Cruciani et al. (2007) has E-V13 arriving in the Balkans only about 6000 years ago.
Somehow I think all of this is probably still lost on you..but I tried. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I agree..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Clearly the Minoan civilization had an African Influence..
Perhaps. It had ties with Egypt and supposedly with Libya. But their are definite influences form Anatolia for sure.
The Minoans have a lot paralells with Egypt from their art style even to their founding leader Minos which is reminiscent of the Egyptian Menes. The Bible mentions the Cretans as being descendants of (Misraim) Egypt. There must have been a good reason for them to believe this.
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Various African lineages have been found in Iberia, albeit at lower percentages, even some exotic ones like paternal A according to one study I didn't keep track of.
More over though, there percentage of admixture is like negligable today, however, there were tests done on ancient / prehistoric people who showed to be much more African, as has been recently posted about here:
quote:Originally posted by ma;content7: Interesting. It is not impossible that Africans were in Southern Europe. But what happened to them where is their genetic signature? They were either wiped back or chased back to African continent in which case Europeans would likely follow behind them. Also most of Spanish Levatine art dates from the neolithic.
LOL So how do you explain the presence of E-M81 and even older E2 male lineages present in Iberia, all of which predated the Moorish conquest??
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Clearly the Minoan civilization had an African Influence..
Indeed as is being discussed here.
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posted
It is probably stickied on ESR. I know the study you are talking about. The conclusion was some of the so-called SSA male lineage entered Iberia during the Neolithic times....I believe the term they used was "pre-history".
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
LOL So how do you explain the presence of E-M81 and even older E2 male lineages present in Iberia, all of which predated the Moorish conquest??
E-m81 is only about 5000 years old.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Various African lineages have been found in Iberia, albeit at lower percentages, even some exotic ones like paternal A according to one study I didn't keep track of.
More over though, there percentage of admixture is like negligable today, however, there were tests done on ancient / prehistoric people who showed to be much more African, as has been recently posted about here:
Haplogroup A would probably be reflective of Dana's scenario. I heard that there were also traces of A or B in Sicily.
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posted
^ Yes, along with Benin HBS (sickle cell) trait.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Yeah, Iberia had been Africanized in a previous wave than the Moors.
@ Djehuti, do you remember where the thread is or what study that is based on, the African paternal Iberian lineages predating Moorish rule in Iberia?
I remember that, I just don't remember the thread.
Beats me. Without a really good search engine, I can't find the thread either.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: E-m81 is only about 5000 years old.
So? E2 (M75) is 45,000 to 50,000 years old yet it too is found in Iberia. Both types found in Spain date to prior the Moorish conquest.
Posts: 26279 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: LOL So how do you explain the presence of E-M81 and even older E2 male lineages present in Iberia, all of which predated the Moorish conquest??
E-m81 is only about 5000 years old.
So are some of this rock art in the Spanish (IBERIAN)Levant.
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: LOL So how do you explain the presence of E-M81 and even older E2 male lineages present in Iberia, all of which predated the Moorish conquest??
E-m81 is only about 5000 years old.
So are some of this rock art in the Spanish (IBERIAN)Levant.
Cueva del Cavalls
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: LOL So how do you explain the presence of E-M81 and even older E2 male lineages present in Iberia, all of which predated the Moorish conquest??
E-m81 is only about 5000 years old.
Where is the rock art and skeletons of these white carriers of E-m81. White people are not the equivalent of early European. Get that through your head. Most in fact were not 'whites" ancestral to modern Europeans but "blacks". That is why Keita said it is not inpossible many so- called Eurasiatic gene carriers were in fact represented by Africans who had settled Europe.
Early Europeans were represented by a majority or preponderance of "black" peoples in palaeolithic, mesolithic megalithic and neolithic Europe. That is why you see their artwork all over the place even well into the Neolithic period AND THEIR MEGALITHS.
Sorry but Brace has shown conclusively that Cro-magnon was not you. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I agree..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Clearly the Minoan civilization had an African Influence..
Perhaps. It had ties with Egypt and supposedly with Libya. But their are definite influences form Anatolia for sure.
The Minoans have a lot paralells with Egypt from their art style even to their founding leader Minos which is reminiscent of the Egyptian Menes. The Bible mentions the Cretans as being descendants of (Misraim) Egypt. There must have been a good reason for them to believe this.
The Keftiu or Ketpatukka, Kamitou and Fulani and other related peoples were definitely in Crete that is why these parallels are there. Misraim is not modern Egypt but the ancient Mazurah or Musri i.e. Tuareg (Imazuragh) who named Egypt.
Ancient Africans were in Crete along with the white non-African Cretans (round-headed). They were distinct and separate people coming from two opposite sides of the Mediterranean and color spectrum and mixing there in Crete.
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posted
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Various African lineages have been found in Iberia, albeit at lower percentages, even some exotic ones like paternal A according to one study I didn't keep track of.
More over though, there percentage of admixture is like negligable today, however, there were tests done on ancient / prehistoric people who showed to be much more African, as has been recently posted about here:
Haplogroup A would probably be reflective of Dana's scenario. I heard that there were also traces of A or B in Sicily.
As Brace said neolithic peoples of the Mediterranean have more connection with Neolithic north and East Africans not with ancestors of modern Europeans. Cro-magnons were not you and neither were most mesolithic, neolithic and early Bronze Age Europeans.
Your ancestors start showing up in large numbers in the Mediterranean and Anatolia only during the late Bronze Age.
I am sorry if that hurts.
Genetics, physical anthropology, rock art, culture and linguistics all say the same thing.
That genetics papers are undoing your silly theories based on wishful thinking-
Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.
"The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East shows (highlights) in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the fact the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic as well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula shows the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material...."
"ABSTRACT The origins of the European populations have been extensively studied from different disciplines. It is thought that ancient demic expansions, like those occurred after the Late Glacial Maximum or during the neolithic diffussion from Middle East to Europe. The possibility to recover DNA from past populations offers an unique opportunity to test in situ these hypothesis. It were analyzed 197 teeth and bones from 115 individuals and 17 different archaeological sites from Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula . It was possible to recover 244pb-mitochondrial DNA sequences from 35 different individuals. They were compared to sequences from 38 European, African and Middle Eastern present-day populations. Phylogenetic reconstructions from Reynolds genetic distance showed that ancient samples clustered together, clearly separated from extant populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions based on ancient and modern haplotypes showed that ancient mitochondrial haplotypes are related to extant ones. Haplotype and haplogroup frequencies in the ancient samples from Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula are clearly different from those present nowadays in the same geographical regions. Haplogroups related to neolithic expansion to Europe J, U3, W and X- are absent in ancient middle eastern sample. There are two possible explanations to this fact. First, it could be possible that the ancient samples analyzed wont be representative of the Middle Eastern populations that expanded the neolithic. Second, it could be also possible that those haplogroups wont have been introduzed in Europe with demic expansions associated to neolithic. At this work it were also examined several technical aspects related to the obtention of genuine ancient DNA and the influence of different variables in DNA preservation. "
Autor(es): Fernández Domínguez, Eva -
You neglected to mention the obvious implication of this paper - that European populations in Spain are a lot more recent than African neolithic ones there.
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Modern North AFrica more Levantine than European ?
From DNA tribes digest "North Africa has been settled several times in history: by Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, and most recently, French and Spanish colonists. North Africans also conquered and settled parts of Iberia (present day Spain and Portugal) between the 8th and 15th centuries AD. However, Berber peoples have maintained distinctive local identities to the present day despite contacts with neighboring cultures. Languages spoken today in the North African region include Berber16 and Arabic, both classified as members of the Afro-Asiatic family of languages. Genetic analysis: Genetic contributions to the North African region from 32 world regions and thirteen Europa sub-regions were estimated. Results are illustrated in Figure 8 and summarized in Table 7 below. Discussion: Results in Table 7 indicate substantial genetic contributions from several sources. The greatest genetic contribution was identified from the Levantine genetic region (62.6%), which might reflect contacts with Arabic-speaking peoples recorded by history17 as well as contacts with earlier peoples, including cultures that brought the Afro-Asiatic language that became Berber to the Maghreb. The Portuguese contribution (19.1%) might reflect gene flow from the Iberian Peninsula following the retreat of Muslims from Al-Andalus after the Christian Reconquista (reconquest), but might also reflect older contacts with populations of Europe not known to history. In addition, substantial contributions were observed from the East African (8.2%), Southern African (6.5%), and West African (3.6%) regions, for a combined contribution of 18.3% from regions south of the Sahara Desert. This might reflect contacts with southerly populations, perhaps mediated by Saharan cultures such as the Tuareg.
15 It has been suggested that the terms such as Meshwesh, Maxyces, and Imazighen are variations of the same ethnonym transcribed in different languages during various eras. 16 However, traditional accounts also describe remote peoples of the Moroccan Rif speaking non-Berber languages, suggesting the possibility of an earlier stratum of culture predating the formation of Berberspeaking communities.
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