posted
Many folks on this forum and elsewhere have long speculated that at one point in time, at least some Jews may have had a darker complexion and this would have been commonplace. There is certainly a strong Jewish history in certain African tribes...but they are often left out of the discussion. Today, I came across an incredibly well researched and detailed website about the complex genetic history of Jewish peoples. It tries to place the origins of E3b in the Middle East. Maybe because it also sites Baher (2004b) who calls sub-clade E-M35* a “major founding lineage” among Ashkenazim Jews.
Jews are willing to admit they have Middle Eastern ancestry. It's not really something they can run away from. The entire Israelite kingdom was in the Levant. But if E-M35 is a "major founding lineage" as Baher believes, then that poses major problems for them because it would be saying a major lineage originated in Africa. Does it not? Here's the website below. There's a lot to it, and I hope some of the geneticists on this board could elaborate. The link and parts of the study are below...
Possible Other Israelite Y-Haplogroups: J, E and G
Previously, the presence of Haplogroups J, E3b, and G among Jews was interpreted as additional evidence of Middle Eastern or Israelite ancestry in much the same fashion as the Cohanim Modal Haplotype. However, recent studies demonstrate that their origin is uncertain.
Unfortunately, misinformation about these haplogroups continues to pervade the public and media. Haplogroup E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup. Haplogroup J2, as previously discussed, is often incorrectly equated with J1 and described as “Jewish” or “Semitic,” despite the fact that it is present in a variety of non-Jewish Mediterranean and Northern European populations. And haplogroup G is rarely discussed in depth; its origin and distribution remain poorly understood.
Haplogroup E3b Among Jews
An examination of recent DNA studies clarifies the probable origins and history of Haplogroup E3b among Jewish populations. One important study by Cruciani explores and refines the origins and distribution patterns not only of E3b, but of the entire E haplogroup (Cruciani et al. 2004).
Researchers discovered that various branches and sub-branches of haplogroup E had very different evolutionary histories and distinct migration patterns (Cruciani et al. 2004). Two branches, E1 and E2, are found predominately in Africa. The third branch, E3, is further divided into E3a and E3b. Haplogroup E3b can be further broken down into a number of sub-clades, including E-M78, E-M81, E-M123, E-M281, and E-V6. If an individual does not fall into any of these sub-clades but still has the defining mutations for E3b, he is then in the ancestral group, E-M35* (Cruciani et al. 2004).
Although E3b arose in East Africa approximately 25,000 years ago, certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years (Cruciani et al. 2004). For example, although E-M78 occurs in about 30-20% of north and east African populations, it also occurs in 4.7% of French, 11.2% of Central Italians and 2.6% of Polish samples (Cruciani et al. 2004). It is particularly high in the Balkans, with some population having a frequency of 25% or more (Cruciani et al. 2004).
It appears that E-M78 migrated from the Middle East to Europe during the Neolithic period. Once it reached the Balkans, a distinctive cluster formed which Cruciani (2004) refers to as the “alpha cluster.” The majority of European E-M78 appears to have originated from this cluster.
However, another cluster of E-M78, known as the “delta cluster,” appears to have migrated to Europe from North Africa or the Middle East with a distinctive haplotype already formed (Cruciani et al. 2004). It is found in low frequency among Spanish, French, Basque and Italian groups (Cruciani et al. 2004). In North Africa, it is also prevalent among Moroccan Arab, Berber and Egyptian groups. Among Middle Eastern groups, it is found in Turkish, Druze Arab and Palestinian populations (Cruciani et al. 2004). This cluster is distinguishable from the Balkan form by distinctive STR haplotype differences.
n a study that presented frequencies of haplogroups J and E among various groups, including both Ashkenazi and Sephardic populations, researchers found 14 out of 77 Ashkenazim (18.2%) were E3b, while 12 out of 40 Sephardim were E3b (30%). (Semino et al. 2004). Ashkenazim were also reported to have a frequency of 5.2% of E-M78, while Sephardim had 12.5%. Yet the providence of this sub-clade among Jews continues to remain unresolved. It is possible that Ashkenazi E-M78 is the result of multiple sources. Only further testing of E-M78 among Sephardic and Ashkenazi groups will determine which of Cruciani’s clusters Jewish groups belong to and whether Ashkenazi and Sephardic groups share similar E-M78 ancestry. However, the fact that Behar (2004b, Supplementary Material) found E-M78 to be much more prevalent among eastern versus western Ashkenazim (10 out of 12 results) argues in favor of admixture with Greek, Italian, Balkan or Eastern European populations. It is also possible that the origin of this sub-clade among Ashkenazim is attributable to Khazarian ancestors.
The higher frequency of E-M78 among Sephardic groups may be the result of pronounced genetic drift, or more likely, gene flow from North African and Spanish populations. The likelihood of European and North African gene flow is further supported by the fact that another sub-clade, E-M81, occurs only among Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). It is also found in very high percentages among North Africans. Its frequency among the Sephardim at 5% is comparable to that seen in Spanish populations, again suggesting possible gene flow from Spanish and Berber populations into Sephardic groups.
Behar (2004b) deemed sub-clade E-M35* a “major founding lineage” among Ashkenazim. But according to Semino (2004), E-M35* only occurs among 1.3% of Ashkenazim and among 2.5% of Sephardim. Behar, on the other hand, reports finding E-35 at a frequency of 7.1% among Eastern European Ashkenazim, versus 19.1% among Ashkenazim in the west. Not only do Behar’s figures contrast sharply with that found by Semino, but Behar also apparently discovered a significant difference in the frequency of this sub-group between eastern and western Jews. The discrepancy between Behar and Semino’s results may be attributable to Behar including sub-clade E-M123 results within his larger E-M35 category. The fact that E-M123 does not appear separately as part of Behar’s data suggests that he did, in fact, combine these sub-clades into a single category.
In fact, the best candidate for possible E3b Israelite ancestry among Jews is E-M123. This sub-clade occurs in almost the same proportions (approximately 10-12%) among both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). According to Cruciani (2004), E-M123 probably originated in the Middle East, since it is found in a large majority of the populations from that area, and then back migrated to Ethiopia. He further notes that this sub-clade may have been spread to Europe during the Neolithic agricultural expansion out of the Middle East. However, because E-M123 is also found in low percentages (1-3%) in many southern European and Balkan populations, its origin among Jewish groups remains uncertain (Semino et al. 2004). Yet the fact that both Sephardim and Ashkenazim possess this sub-clade in similar high frequency supports an Israelite/Middle Eastern origin.
As for E-M35*, Semino (2004) did not find this group in either the Lebanese or Iraqi samples. Nor did Cruciani (2004) find it in any of his Middle Eastern samples. It is present, however, in East and North African samples; for example, it occurs in about 7.9% of Berber tribesmen from north-central Morocco (Semino et al. 2004). It also occurs in 2.7% of Andalusians in Spain, 5.5% of Sardinians and 1.5% Italian populations (Semino et al. 2004). It appears that the most likely explanation for Jewish E-M35* is that it represents gene flow from North African populations into Spain, Italy, and Sardinia, and hence, gene flow from these European populations into Jewish groups.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Who was it on this forum that advanced the idea that the original Israelites were simply Egytians who migrated to Palestine?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Many folks on this forum and elsewhere have long speculated that at one point in time, at least some Jews may have had a darker complexion and this would have been commonplace. There is certainly a strong Jewish history in certain African tribes...but they are often left out of the discussion. Today, I came across an incredibly well researched and detailed website about the complex genetic history of Jewish peoples. It tries to place the origins of E3b in the Middle East. Maybe because it also sites Baher (2004b) who calls sub-clade E-M35* a “major founding lineage” among Ashkenazim Jews.
Jews are willing to admit they have Middle Eastern ancestry. It's not really something they can run away from. The entire Israelite kingdom was in the Levant. But if E-M35 is a "major founding lineage" as Baher believes, then that poses major problems for them because it would be saying a major lineage originated in Africa. Does it not? Here's the website below. There's a lot to it, and I hope some of the geneticists on this board could elaborate. The link and parts of the study are below...
Unfortunately, misinformation about these haplogroups continues to pervade the public and media. Haplogroup E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup. Haplogroup J2, as previously discussed, is often incorrectly equated with J1 and described as “Jewish” or “Semitic,” despite the fact that it is present in a variety of non-Jewish Mediterranean and Northern European populations. And haplogroup G is rarely discussed in depth; its origin and distribution remain poorly understood.
Haplogroup E3b Among Jews
An examination of recent DNA studies clarifies the probable origins and history of Haplogroup E3b among Jewish populations. One important study by Cruciani explores and refines the origins and distribution patterns not only of E3b, but of the entire E haplogroup (Cruciani et al. 2004).
Researchers discovered that various branches and sub-branches of haplogroup E had very different evolutionary histories and distinct migration patterns (Cruciani et al. 2004). Two branches, E1 and E2, are found predominately in Africa. The third branch, E3, is further divided into E3a and E3b. Haplogroup E3b can be further broken down into a number of sub-clades, including E-M78, E-M81, E-M123, E-M281, and E-V6. If an individual does not fall into any of these sub-clades but still has the defining mutations for E3b, he is then in the ancestral group, E-M35* (Cruciani et al. 2004).
Although E3b arose in East Africa approximately 25,000 years ago, certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years (Cruciani et al. 2004). For example, although E-M78 occurs in about 30-20% of north and east African populations, it also occurs in 4.7% of French, 11.2% of Central Italians and 2.6% of Polish samples (Cruciani et al. 2004). It is particularly high in the Balkans, with some population having a frequency of 25% or more (Cruciani et al. 2004).
It appears that E-M78 migrated from the Middle East to Europe during the Neolithic period. Once it reached the Balkans, a distinctive cluster formed which Cruciani (2004) refers to as the “alpha cluster.” The majority of European E-M78 appears to have originated from this cluster.
I don't get the study's argument that calling "E" an African haplotype is misleading. Why? Many DNA researchers do not hesitate to label various DNA markers in Africa 'Arab", or "Middle Eastern", or ‘Eurasian” or some other such label that suggests non-Africanity, as noted by Keita (2005). Haplogroup E3A and E3B represent more than 70% of the Y-chromosones on the African continent. The highest frequencies of these haplotypes overall is found in Africa. So why do some shirk from calling them African? I notice the writer does not say it is 'misleading' to call "J" Eurasian.
It is true that E3b is found elsewhere in Europe, etc but this is because peoples there got a subset of the original African DNA diversity to begin with. The Middle east may be one route of the spread, but the original jumping off point for all subsequent mutations was Africa. "E" is very well represented in Africa. It is not a marginal element. The article itself notes that 'E" originated in East or Northeast Africa. So combined with the distribution and frequencies noted above, why do they have a problem calling it African?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: Who was it on this forum that advanced the idea that the original Israelites were simply Egytians who migrated to Palestine?
Unknown, but it appears that the Egyptians may have sparked early urbanization in Palestine according to one standard reference:
"Contact between northern Egypt and Palestine was overland, as evidence in northern Sinai demonstrates.. Israeli archeologists suggest that this evidence represents a commercial network established and controlled by the Egyptians as early as EBA Ia, and that this network was a major factor in the rise of the urban settlements found later in Palestine EBA II. Naomi Porat's technological study of ceramics from EBA sites in southern Palestine clearly demonstrates that in EBA Ib strata many of the pottery vessels used for food preparation were probably manufactured by Egyptian potters using Egyptian technology but local Palestinian clays. In EBA Ib strata there are also many storage jars made from Nile silt and marl wares, which must have been imported from Egypt. Not only did the Egyptians establish camps and way stations in northern Sinai, but the ceramic evidence also suggests that they established a highly organized network of settlements in southern Palestine where an Egyptian population was in residence."
Ian Shaw ed. (2003) The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt By Ian Shaw. Oxford University Press, page 40-63
Ian Shaw ed. (2003) The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt By Ian Shaw. Oxford University Press, page 4o-63
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:I don't get the study's argument that calling "E" an African haplotype is misleading. Why?
Because it means admitting that non africans have african ancestry, and non blacks, including asiatic jews have black ancestry.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:I don't get the study's argument that calling "E" an African haplotype is misleading. Why?
Because it means admitting that non africans have african ancestry, and non blacks, including asiatic jews have black ancestry.
It would fit in with what the Bible called a ?mixed multitude? leaving Egypt during the Exodus.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ausaru: Is there any genetic marker that clusters all jews together whether they are Ashkenazi,Yemeni,Ethiopian, or any of those socalled jews.
No.
The notion of a Jewish "People", as it is currently understood, is seriously flawed...
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Well considering the Levant's proximity right next to Africa, and Hebrew and other Semitic languages having ancestral Afrasian origins in Africa, is such a finding really surprising??
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Perhaps you'll be able to further elaborate on why you upped/bumped this thread?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
^Perhaps hoping to get in a dig at the Jews, since they can be "linked" to "those people" - i.e. Africans via Haplogroup E. Unfortunately for him, as you showed elsewhere, it appears also that 'Europeans" , the defining Caucasians, are not as "pure" as he hoped either.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
There IS a lot of unnecessary confusion on this topic!All the experts acknowledge the rather complex nature of the E3B cluster.Furthermore,statements about E3B being one of the "founding lineages"of the Jewish people are even more distracting.The subclade E-V22 is as Egyptian as the pyramids.Cruciani and others are pretty much agreed on that.Recent predictions indicate the origin of this subclade in the Lake Nubia region coinciding with the beginning of Egyptian dynastic history.Its presence in the Jewish community is ,quite simply,the contribution of the Alexandrian Jews who were comprised of true descendants of the Israelites and African converts.These converts made their way to Constantinople and then the Ukraine(Kiev)Every Jewish historian is aware of this.This explains the significantly higher number of Polish and Ukrainian Jews who have tested positive for the E-V22 subclade then their German Ashkenazic counterparts.A major trade route controlled by the Khazars connected Constantinople with the city of Kiev.The "Jewish" timing of this subclade corresponds with the last pogrom directed against the Jews in Constantinople which resulted in an exodus to the Khazarian frontier where Jews were safe.Not so confusing,is it??
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posted
^ BTW you know that V-22 peaks not in Egypt but the Horn of Africa at 25%?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I wonder why no mention of Lemba in the entire article.
Notice the dismissal in the article of the blacks among the Khazars mentioned by early authors. "The Khazars do not resemble the Turks. They are black-haired, and are of two kinds, one called the Kara-Khazars [Black Khazars] who are swarthy verging on deep black as if they were kind of Indian, and a white kind [Ak-Khazars], who are strikingly handsome. (Koestler 1976, p. 20)" The name of the black Khazars was Sabartu or Sabartu-Asfaloi the Sabar of the Zab.
Rest assured these blacks are Hebrew relatives of the Jews. They are called Sabir, Sabara, Sebi, Savirskaya, Severjane, Savartik from which originally came the term Sephardic. Whom the Armenian Josephus said took their name from the fact that they were "the black sons of Seva son of Kush." These people were spread from Central Asia to Turkey and are always referred to as blacks. Unfortunately due to the messed up chronology of the Near East their identity is rarely recognized.
It would be interesting to know which word was used in Arabic by Istakhri since the Persians used the word "Indi" generically for black Africans during his time, unfortunately for European interpretations.
Some of the premises the author notes in the article is what messes up the genetics
"1 Amorites: Western Semites like the Canaanites. They were probably the pastoral nomadic component of the Canaanite people. 2 Hittites: A non-Semitic people from Anatolia and Northern Syria. 3 Hurrians (Horites): A non-Semitic people who inhabited parts of Syria and Mesopotamia. Many kings of the early Canaanite city-states had Hurrian names. 4 Amalekites: Nomads from southern Transjordan. Even inimical references to this group in the Hebrew Bible “tacitly” acknowledge that the Israelites and Amalekites shared a common ancestry. 5 Philistines: Referred to in ancient texts as “Sea Peoples.” They invaded and settled along the coasts of ancient Canaan. Their culture appears to stem from that of Mycenae."
Philistine in Aegean wear
The Hebrew Torah, of course, says before their "spread abroad" the Philistine, Casluhim (Al-Haskuna), Cafturim (Keftiu)the Emim (Banu Umama), Amorites (Banu Morad)or Rephaim (Ruwafa), Amalek (Amalik), the Anakim (Banu Akk/Og)of Canaan and Nephilim (Banu Nifal) were the same population in different towns in Canaan and Edom (Ad-Dawasir region). And indeed most of them still ARE!
Only number 1 and 4 are largely correct the others are mostly inaccurate. Philistines before they became part of "the Sea peoples" and and black Keftiu of Mycenae and Syria, the Amorites, Midianites, Nabataeans and Amalekites as they are still called today in the Yemen (notice how at one time or another all of these folk are referred to as black or as Cushites in the Near East) and the "Israelites" of the Hijaz were all one people.
While the Kaleb or Kahanim in Afro-Asiatic tradition are originally considered to have come from the Erythraean Sea - like the Phoenicians/Canaanites just mentioned above - from Aram (Arim) near Sana'a (Senah) with Amr Musaikah (Moses) after leaving Meriba (Marib). Exodus 17
They settled at Khaibar and Yathrib where they are described until the 16th century, of course as black in color and Jews by explorers like Ludovico Bertolli.
The Samaritans or Banu Shamran (Zimran) are also still located in the Yemen, along with Amalek descendants of Philistim and the Amorites or Banu Murad and A'nakha. All near black in color.
The West expediently distorts genetics as well as archeological findings to write Europeans into Old Testament history and just ignore the facts; such things like how Josephus refers to the Amalekites as Phoenicians and says the Midianites and the rest of Keturahs descendants (the black Bayt Kathir as they r still called in the Yemen) had taken over or settled the Trogodyte area of Africa, or that the Phoenicians like the Philistines are portrayed in ancient Egyptian paintings the color of ancient Egyptians i.e. Africans. They ignore the fact that the Greeks considered the Phoenicians to have come from the Erythraean Sea (trying to say they meant mainly the Persian Gulf) where there is still Canaan or Wadi Kanawnah in southwest Arabia - "lowland of the Canaanites" - and that almost all of the Old Testament tribes are located there and nearby there today under their ancient names.
It is Meluchha Ethiopians or Amalek - Canaanites - "who spread abroad" i.e. back into Africa and northward into Syria and the Aegean and eastward in the second millenium B.C., not vice versa.
Keep pretending if you wish or believing European distortions and ignoring these facts, but the irrefutable Truth is coming out very soon, whether you are ready for it or not.
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