quote: My claim! Well, I (and not humble at all) can say without a shadow of a doubt that as an African-American, that some of my relatives once lived in the ancient Nile Valley; If I have, and of course I do, one Wolof or Yoruba or Fulani or Tuareg ancestor (I probably have all four) then my ancestry can be traced back to the ancient Nile Valley (Yes, to Kemet). I can also expect to find relatives in the kingdoms and provinces of Benin, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Mali, Sankore; also amongst the Dogon, the Kongo, the Zulu... There is simply too much history and science to dispute this, my heritage. A fool might give it a try, but...
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^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
West Africans came from many places. To say, "the majority of West Africans came from the Nile Valley" is erronous and false. Maybe if you have Dogon ancestors you can make that argument more strongly. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't tribes in West Africa like the Dogon that may share some ancestral history with the Nile Valley...but to make it seem like ALL of the tribes of this region ALL migrated from Egypt at some point in history is laughable at best. The DNA evidence doesn't support this, nor does the linguistic or cultural.
Case in point, the Tuareg have history with many regions in Africa including East, North, and West Africa. It's much more complex than you make it seem.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Apparently Clyde missed my response to Wally's claim in that thread here.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
West Africans came from many places. To say, "the majority of West Africans came from the Nile Valley" is erronous and false. Maybe if you have Dogon ancestors you can make that argument more strongly. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't tribes in West Africa like the Dogon that may share some ancestral history with the Nile Valley...but to make it seem like ALL of the tribes of this region ALL migrated from Egypt at some point in history is laughable at best. The DNA evidence doesn't support this, nor does the linguistic or cultural.
Case in point, the Tuareg have history with many regions in Africa including East, North, and West Africa. It's much more complex than you make it seem.
I did not say all West Africans. I named specific groups. These are the groups that mainly arrived in America, up to 1800 when the U.S., stopped "legally" importing slaves from Africa.
West Africans from other nations became Americans, as the United States expanded into former Spanish and French colonies which were absorbed by the US. The original Afro-Americans, for the most part, came from the Senegal-Guinee Coast.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Apparently Clyde missed my response to Wally's claim in that thread here.
I read your post. In it you said, like most white Liberals, Afro-Americans should claim the West African kingdoms. That's fine also.
But why should we stop there. Whereas , every European group attempts to claim the heritage of the Latins (Romans) or Greeks, the linguistic, archaeological and anthropological research makes it clear that Afro-Americans don't have to make up false geneologies to have ancestors that resided in the Nile Valley, as noted by the abundance of evidence, which points to the ancestors of the people of the Senegal-Guinee region originally inhabiting the Nile Valley, and migrating over time to the places where they now live along the upper Niger and Senegal rivers, on to the coast .
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^ Obviously what I wrote went over your head (or rather you refuse to accept it and let it sink in)!
quote:Djehuti wrote:
This is where I disagree and think it a mistake you're making to assume you have direct ancestry from Egypt. Though I do not doubt the possiblity exists, I think it it highly unlikely for you as an African American to have direct ancestry from Egypt. The Wolof, Yoruba, and Fulani, are West Africans having predominantly to entirely West African lineages. The Tuareg who vary in maternal lineages do share paternal lineages in common with Egyptians but this is far cry from saying that they directly descend from them. So even though you may have ancestry from all 4 groups of African peoples there is nothing to imply that any are from Egypt! I think this is where you show too much faith in Cheik Anta Diop when you believe in his claims of an Egyptian/Nile Valley exodus to West Africa when there is no evidence of such an event. You must accept that whatever similarities in culture these peoples had with Egypt stems from a relation of a common African origin and not that one derived from the other! As an African American of West African descent, it is far more likely you have ancestry from those other African kingdoms you mentioned Benin, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Mali, Sankore, Kongo, etc. But to claim ancestry from Egypt takes away the recognition and credit that these West African civilization so desperately deserve! To do so would make you sound just as bad as those Eurocentrics who think just because they are white they have ancestry from Greece or from Rome! In most of their European history lessons they give little credit to the actual peoples they descend from-- the various Germanic and Celtic tribes; more emphasis is given on Rome or Greece. Such a view of history is itself false and inaccurate:
PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
Diop was absolutely correct in pointing out the Africanity of Egypt, but he was wrong for trying to find "Egyptian ancestors" in West Africans. If anything. Diop's problem is that he tried to write African history based on the Western model which is itself flawed! As Thought and Rasol have pointed out before the mistake of trying to imitate Western/Eurocentric models!
MY claim is the best:
China is one of the world's early 'cradles of civilization', but it is also an Eastern Asian civilization founded by an Eastern Asian people. Now, Filippino culture has many traits in common with Chinese culture, but this can only be due to common Eastern Asian origin. As a Filippino, I even share the same paternal lineage (O) as Chinese men, and historically the Philippines has even had trade with the Chinese since China isn't that far away. All of these facts make the chances of me having Chinese ancestry far more likely than you having Egyptian ancestry all the way from the other corner of the African continent. However, I do NOT claim any ancestry from the Chinese at all but am quite satisfied and proud of my own Filippino ancestry. Of course I can claim a relation to Chinese as Eastern Asians and virtually no one disagrees with this fact unlike Egypt's situation where too many people do not even know about Egyptians' African identity.
Take it for what it is. (And this goes out to Clyde Winters as well as Wally!)
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
West Africans came from many places. To say, "the majority of West Africans came from the Nile Valley" is erronous and false. Maybe if you have Dogon ancestors you can make that argument more strongly. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't tribes in West Africa like the Dogon that may share some ancestral history with the Nile Valley...but to make it seem like ALL of the tribes of this region ALL migrated from Egypt at some point in history is laughable at best. The DNA evidence doesn't support this, nor does the linguistic or cultural.
Case in point, the Tuareg have history with many regions in Africa including East, North, and West Africa. It's much more complex than you make it seem.
I did not say all West Africans. I named specific groups. These are the groups that mainly arrived in America, up to 1800 when the U.S., stopped "legally" importing slaves from Africa.
West Africans from other nations became Americans, as the United States expanded into former Spanish and French colonies which were absorbed by the US. The original Afro-Americans, for the most part, came from the Senegal-Guinee Coast.
Even so, no one knows for certain how strong the relation between certain West African groups and Ancient Egypt is. The Yoruba say they came from the East and share many customs and traits with Egyptians. The Dogon tribe of Mali also share many customs with Ancient Egypt...but it is somewhat of a leap of faith to say they have DIRECT DESCENDENCE. There are many ways (especially over the course of hundreds of years) cultural customs can be adopted without having direct descendence. For the short term, look at the enormous impact Black Americans have had on Western music.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: But why should we stop there. Whereas , every European group attempts to claim the heritage of the Latins (Romans) or Greeks,..
LOL You accuse Doug of twisting your words to say *all* West Africans descend from the Nile Valley. Now I ask how *all* Europeans claim Roman or Greek heritage?! Irish people don't, Basque don't, Swedish don't, Baltic peoples like Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians don't. Alot more other peoples in Europe don't make such claims. The only people who do are the hardcore Eurocentrics who you so desperately emulate!
quote:the linguistic, archaeological and anthropological research makes it clear that Afro-Americans don't have to make up false geneologies to have ancestors that resided in the Nile Valley, as noted by the abundance of evidence, which points to the ancestors of the people of the Senegal-Guinee region originally inhabiting the Nile Valley, and migrating over time to the places where they now live along the upper Niger and Senegal rivers, on to the coast .
LOL And what evidence is this may I ask! Archaeologically there is no evidence of mass migration from the Nile Valley. Linguistically, Senegalese like most West Africans speak Niger-Congo languages. There are some groups who speak Afrasian languages akin to Egyptian like the Hausa yet there is little evidence to tie them to the Nile Valley let alone Egypt, and I've personally met a couple of Hausa and neither claim ancestry from Egypt. Anthropologically, what?-- That both Egyptians and West Africans share tropically adapted body plans is a no-brainer. Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
And of course genetics, verifies all of this with Senegalese and other West Africans being quite divergent in autosomal DNA. Senegalese in particular carry E2 lineages which is rare in Egyptians who carry E3b and E3a.
So Clyde, again I ask exactly what this evidence is you speak of?
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: LOL You accuse Doug of twisting your words to say *all* West Africans descend from the Nile Valley. Now I ask how *all* Europeans claim Roman or Greek heritage?! Irish people don't, Basque don't, Swedish don't, Baltic peoples like Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians don't. Alot more other peoples in Europe don't make such claims. The only people who do are the hardcore Eurocentrics who you so desperately emulate!
If this is not the case, why does every ancient history textbook written in the West begin with Greece, and people in the diverse Western nations maintain this is there heritage?
Djehuti
quote:
And of course genetics, verifies all of this with Senegalese and other West Africans being quite divergent in autosomal DNA. Senegalese in particular carry E2 lineages which is rare in Egyptians who carry E3b and E3a.
These are test done on contemporary Egyptians. As you know, most of the original Egyptians have long ago moved out of the Nile valley into other parts of Africa. The genetic evidence therefore tells us very little about the molecular make-up of the ancient Egyptians.
For the short term, look at the enormous impact Black Americans have had on Western music.
Why stop there?
This does not even match our impact on Science. We made cotton gin, and the light bulb and telephone work. We are also responsible for making the internet and I believe even the cell phones.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Clyde Winters: As you know, most of the original Egyptians have long ago moved out of the Nile valley into other parts of Africa. The genetic evidence therefore tells us very little about the molecular make-up of the ancient Egyptians.
Evidence please that most of the Egyptians moved out of Egypt? Modern Egyptians are directly descendents of the ancient Egyptians, you can argue that they've had alot of mixing due to the influx of conquerers for the last 2500 years, but to say that most of their ancestors migrated from Egypt makes you only look redicoulas, and an insult to modern Egyptians aswell as their ancestors.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: If this is not the case, why does every ancient history textbook written in the West begin with Greece,..
Because it is a tradition, one that is rooted in Eurocentric doctrine #5---PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
quote:and people in the diverse Western nations maintain this is there heritage?
Because of the very indoctrination of this belief and the traditionalism it is steeped in! Again I ask what Western nations claim Greek ancestry??
quote:These are test done on contemporary Egyptians. As you know, most of the original Egyptians have long ago moved out of the Nile valley into other parts of Africa. The genetic evidence therefore tells us very little about the molecular make-up of the ancient Egyptians.
LOL The above is lie to say the least. Most if even any Egyptians did not "move out of the Nile Valley". Where is the evidence of this mass exodus? We don't have any! In fact genetic evidence supports that-- Modern Egyptians carry predominantly African lineages with the non-African lineages being additions from immigrations.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Evidence please that most of the Egyptians moved out of Egypt? Modern Egyptians are directly descendents of the ancient Egyptians, you can argue that they've had alot of mixing due to the influx of conquerers for the last 2500 years, but to say that most of their ancestors migrated from Egypt makes you only look redicoulas, and an insult to modern Egyptians aswell as their ancestors.
The ironic thing Yonis, is that Ausar (a modern Egyptian) has repeated this over a hundred times on this board yet people like Clyde refuse to listen. Instead they prefer the fantasy of Egyptians leaving in a mass exodus to escape the rule and persecution of non-Africans who were invading their land. These Egyptians somehow made their way across the Sahara not stopping until they reached West Africa, leaving behind no materials in this great journey-- only modern day descendants including African Americans! LOLPosts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Evidence please that most of the Egyptians moved out of Egypt? Modern Egyptians are directly descendents of the ancient Egyptians, you can argue that they've had alot of mixing due to the influx of conquerers for the last 2500 years, but to say that most of their ancestors migrated from Egypt makes you only look redicoulas, and an insult to modern Egyptians aswell as their ancestors.
The ironic thing Yonis, is that Ausar (a modern Egyptian) has repeated this over a hundred times on this board yet people like Clyde refuse to listen. Instead they prefer the fantasy of Egyptians leaving in a mass exodus to escape the rule and persecution of non-Africans who were invading their land. These Egyptians somehow made their way across the Sahara not stopping until they reached West Africa, leaving behind no materials in this great journey-- only modern day descendants including African Americans! LOL
To be fair, the archeology required to properly look into this claim is nearly impossible looking at the state of many African nations. So where there MAY be evidence...it is not currently possible to do anything about it. Also, population migrations aren't an uncommon thing and if occured over generations may have not been recorded as a MASS MIGRATION as if everyone left at the same time. That's what I think Clyde is getting at...but it's still a faulty argument without the proper evidence and documentation.
Some examples though...You had the Great Migration in America between 1914 and 1950 when over 1 million Black southerners moved North and West to escape racism and joblessness in the South. You also had the Indian Trail of Tears here in America and the western Gold Rush along the Oregon Trail. So, to be fair to the theory, it's not EXTREMELY far-fetched and impossible...just not well documented and supported by strong, convincing evidence.
I've read a lot about the connections between Dogon/Egyptian cosmology, culture, religion, etc. So the argument is definently there...and not defined by the "afrocentrists" as seems to be the impression.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I wouldn't rule out Ancient Egyptian ancestry for some West Africans or black Americans, but significant levels are unlikely. They probably do share Saharan ancestors with AEs though.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Because it is a tradition, one that is rooted in Eurocentric doctrine #5---PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
The sad thing is that I've met people with this exact attitude towards history. I remember getting into an argument over the internet about which civilizations should be included in a computer game about history and the world's empires. My opponents were strongly against the inclusion of sub-Saharan and Native American civilizations because they "didn't contribute anything" to history or world culture. Attempts to convince them otherwise were fruitless. You just cannot rinse out that sort of mentality.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I love Egypt but I myself am genuinely proud of what Kingdoms/empires such as Ghana, Mali, Songhay, and Kanem-Bornu were able to accomplish, despite the lack of praise they receive in the mainstream, and couldn't care less about being a direct descendant of Thutmosis III when I can look to someone like Sundiata Keita or Sunni Ali Ber as a more direct relative..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Egyptian culture died when the Greeks and Romans came along, next Arabs came with Islam and destroyed what ever tried to survive.
Keita showed the E3a connection to Lower Kemet, Highest frequency Y chromosome haplotype amongst African American males is E3a.
Now for the record please stop pretending that Kemet was a monocultural environment because it was NOT, what was sacred in one Sepat(Nome)was not in another Sepat(Nome). Kemet was a LOOSE Federation of Sepat(Nomes,States) it was united by LANGUAGE so my advice is study the language affinities and you will find the descendants of Kemet.
Historical text showed numerous exodus of populations from Kemet especially under Roman and Arab rule some went south, some went WEST, hence we see the Kemetic language affinities with Wolof,Hausa etc. West Africa has been recently populated.
Diodorus Siculus
quote: Egypt is the most populated country in the world.
The most populated country in the world and located in Afrika, this heavily populated African country would definately house the Ancestors who made up some of todays Afrikan Americans.
Read historical text and drop the ignorance, Djehuti please stop comparing Afrikans and Chinese. those anologies are gibberish to me.
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
This is based on what study?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Historical text showed numerous exodus of populations from Kemet especially under Roman and Arab rule some went south, some went WEST, hence we see the Kemetic language affinities with Wolof,Hausa etc. West Africa has been recently populated.
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You guys make a number of valid points which might be used to see continuity between much of the contemporary Egyptian population and the ancient Egyptians. I must disagree. Since the Assyrians first conquered the Egyptians there has been a slow replacement of ancient Egyptians by Middle Eastern and Western European peoples.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large number of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These people began to take over many Egyptian settlements, while other Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Other ancient Egyptian caused political and military conflicts that led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deerters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testfy to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush and other parts of Africa.
In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). These rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426). This would had led to migrations of Egyptians out of Egypt to other parts of Africa.
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC and led to many Egyptians migrating back into Egypt.
By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled. Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule (Torok, 454-456). This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt.
The Kush was a multi-ethnic society. It included speakers of many languages within the empire. During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.
As more and more Egyptians, led by Egyptian nationalists, fled to Kush as it became under foreign domination the Egyptians formed a large minority in the Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
By the rise of Greeks in Egypt, the cultural ideology , like the people were changing. This is supported by the transition from Demotic writing (7th 5th Centuries BC) to Coptic (4th BC-AD 1400). The Coptic people are the best evidence for the change in the Egyptian population.
It was during these migrations that some Egyptians fled to West Africa.
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The connections are there and they are not as trivial as many may think. There are many verbal traditions all over Africa of Egyptian influence. I posted something a while back about some Africans saying they learned bead making from Egyptians. Of course, Europeans dont count such traditions. It is not just Egyptian influence either. It is Nile Valley influence that can be seen across Africa. This attests to the contacts between Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and other Nilotic civilizations and the rest of Africa. It does not make the Nile the ancestral homeland of all modern West Africans though.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The connections are there and they are not as trivial as many may think. There are many verbal traditions all over Africa of Egyptian influence. I posted something a while back about some Africans saying they learned bead making from Egyptians. Of course, Europeans dont count such traditions. It is not just Egyptian influence either. It is Nile Valley influence that can be seen across Africa. This attests to the contacts between Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and other Nilotic civilizations and the rest of Africa. It does not make the Nile the ancestral homeland of all modern West Africans though.
We agree on this point ,Doug, I have never said all West Africans came from Egypt.
But we have to face the fact that Egyptians exiles would have possessed the knowledge to make great contributions to African societies with lesser technology. This may have helped them to assimilate smoothly in many African societies where they settled after migrating from Egypt to escape unjust rule by non-Egyptians.
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Dr. Winters, you have provided the historical evidence but what of the textual and archaeological data of a exodous from the Nile Valley into Western Africa. You mention that during the Assyrian era in Egypt's history that Western Asians began to displace and rule indigenous Egyptians,and I wonder what first hand or second hand source are you basing such claim? Also, what type of exiles from Egypt migrated? Was it the populace or elite that were only a small percentage. If the elites then why is there no equivalent script in Western Africa that looks like Demotic? Also any large demic migration would bring more than just cultural artifacts and other items such as animal and food domesticates as well as pollen trails.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:But we have to face the fact that Egyptians exiles would have possessed the knowledge to make great contributions to African societies with lesser technology. This may have helped them to assimilate smoothly in many African societies where they settled after migrating from Egypt to escape unjust rule by non-Egyptians
To accept such assertion means that one must first prove what technological innovations that Egyptians exiles might have pocessed at the departure. You must make clear from what departure period did such exodus occur and what technology did the exiles contribute to indigenous Western Africans. Does such technology still exist within Western Africa? Do oral myths within certain Western African cultures support such foreign impetus?
.
Anyway,Dr. Winters, the burden of proof in on you to provide evidence. You have provided some strong historical evidence but rather weak concrete data.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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^Finally a true Egyptian speaks out! Get him, Ausar, I mean question him. LOL
The very idea of mass population displacement is ludicrous considering all the evidence we have.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus: I wouldn't rule out Ancient Egyptian ancestry for some West Africans or black Americans, but significant levels are unlikely. They probably do share Saharan ancestors with AEs though.
It is more likely the latter-- that both West Africans and Egyptians share ancestry from the Sahara like E3a lineages.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Because it is a tradition, one that is rooted in Eurocentric doctrine #5---PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
The sad thing is that I've met people with this exact attitude towards history. I remember getting into an argument over the internet about which civilizations should be included in a computer game about history and the world's empires. My opponents were strongly against the inclusion of sub-Saharan and Native American civilizations because they "didn't contribute anything" to history or world culture. Attempts to convince them otherwise were fruitless. You just cannot rinse out that sort of mentality.
^Indeed those people have serious issues if they ignore (deny) African and American civilizations and empires in a game about world empires. Obviously a freudian slip on their part-- that they consider only the West to be the world! Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: I love Egypt but I myself am genuinely proud of what Kingdoms/empires such as Ghana, Mali, Songhay, and Kanem-Bornu were able to accomplish, despite the lack of praise they receive in the mainstream, and couldn't care less about being a direct descendant of Thutmosis III when I can look to someone like Sundiata Keita or Sunni Ali Ber as a more direct relative..
One should always be proud of his or her own heritage and not always look to the heritages of others. Again I myself as a person of Eastern Asian descent am quite satisfied with my Filipino heritage and look to people like King Palu Palu than to try to cling onto great peoples outside my ethnicity like Chinese Emperor Chi Huang-di just because they are Asian! Some people just aren't satisfied with their own ethic heritage. In fact this mentality you see among some African Americans reflects Eurocentrics! Where you have people of Northwest European descent not only try to claim ancestors from Rome and Greece but even 'kacazoid' ancestors in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India etc!
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
This is based on what study?
The Batrawi study compounded by Crichtons re-evalutation of Brace's study. Sorry I forgot to cite my sources. Of course Egyptians possessed close affinities to West Africans but just not as close to their immediate neighbors.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For me it's not a matter of personal pride or shame,but evidence presented. A more multi-displinary reserch that is agenda free from either sides of the argument. An African American or anybody can claim their ancestors are ancient Egyptians but the validity of the argument is based on the evidence and not the claim itself. All the following is subject to personal interpretation and bias but with a more multidisplinary approach we can weed out weak and strong cases. I definately agree with Dr. Winters that such a consideration deserves much more attention and both side of the argument need to be heard.
BTW, Dr. Hawass reminds me of the Puerto drummer Tito Puente save for his busht eyebrows.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: BTW, Dr. Hawass reminds me of the Puerto drummer Tito Puente save for his busht eyebrows.
Exactamundo! Funny thing we do not go around shouting our affinity with monkeys and orangutangs!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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[/QUOTE]This is based on what study? [/qb][/QUOTE]The Batrawi study compounded by Crichtons re-evalutation of Brace's study. Sorry I forgot to cite my sources. Of course Egyptians possessed close affinities to West Africans but just not as close to their immediate neighbors. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Again, what is our hypothesis? and what is the null hypothesis? Sample size location will affect the outcome because places like Alexandria (Egypt)(obviously) will not be a close sample to the population known as West Africans? To back track, Alexandria can display MtDNA of those who came before, hence showing maternal West African heritage (highly UNLIKELY!) per the specific tribal group while saying Ethiopia, Kenya and Yemen would be likely areas of genetic preponderance!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Population displacement is a common though not necessarily reportable event since it may be taken care of very fast according to the powers that be! I look at the state of Palestine about a year before the occupation of the "foreigners" from Germany and 2 years afterwards. A 3-5 year difference can mean the destruction of any groups of people within a short period of time that would be insignificant in a historical context! The Spaniards arrival in the Americas, OR the Aborignees destruction by their prison brethren from UK/Ireland. If one was not knowledgeable about the period, one would assume the same present occupiers are the true natives of that land mass/area!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
You got to be kidding me. Black Americans do not *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. And don't dare tell me that some of the Nubians and it's many stocks went into the Congo and the Congolese were part of the Atlantic slave trade, and that's how black Americans share ancient Egyptian ancestry. Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: For me it's not a matter of personal pride or shame,but evidence presented. A more multi-displinary reserch that is agenda free from either sides of the argument. An African American or anybody can claim their ancestors are ancient Egyptians but the validity of the argument is based on the evidence and not the claim itself. All the following is subject to personal interpretation and bias but with a more multidisplinary approach we can weed out weak and strong cases. I definately agree with Dr. Winters that such a consideration deserves much more attention and both side of the argument need to be heard.
BTW, Dr. Hawass reminds me of the Puerto drummer Tito Puente save for his busht eyebrows.
Ausar makes an excellent point. But just to let you know, I am one of those people who are in an unbiased position in the first place. I am not against the notion of African Americans have ancestry from ancient Egypt since they are of African descent and the Egyptians are African, however I am not all for it either unless there are any actual facts to back up such claims. Many racist whites and Eurocentrics would probably fall ill at the idea of African Americans having ancestry from one of the first civilization builders as their objects of inferiority. On the other hand, African Americans would doing nothing but hurting themselves to make illegitimate historical or hereditary claims.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The facts remain that West Africa/West Africans has/have been civilized much longer than Western Europe has and one of the greatest empires(Mali) in Western Africa actually incorporated a land mass larger than Western Europe its self and sustained it for over 400 years, only to be succeeded by an even larger Empire(Songhay). They'd in fact fall ill simply knowing that if they'd simply ponder on the significance of it and if it weren't so often pushed under the rug..
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
You got to be kidding me. Black Americans do not *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. And don't dare tell me that some of the Nubians and it's many stocks went into the Congo and the Congolese were part of the Atlantic slave trade, and that's how black Americans share ancient Egyptian ancestry.
He didn't say (definitively) that African-Americans share Ancient Egyptian ancestry(or that none do), he's saying that both Ancient Egyptians and ancestors of African-Americans shared African ancestry, which is confirmed as fact..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Dr. Winters, you have provided the historical evidence but what of the textual and archaeological data of a exodous from the Nile Valley into Western Africa. You mention that during the Assyrian era in Egypt's history that Western Asians began to displace and rule indigenous Egyptians,and I wonder what first hand or second hand source are you basing such claim? Also, what type of exiles from Egypt migrated? Was it the populace or elite that were only a small percentage. If the elites then why is there no equivalent script in Western Africa that looks like Demotic? Also any large demic migration would bring more than just cultural artifacts and other items such as animal and food domesticates as well as pollen trails.
The Egyptian writing system was not used in West Africa because these people were using a syllabic writing system that had been popular in Africa for thousands of years. This form of writing was also used in ancient Egypt. As typified by the inscription from Gebel Sheikh Suleiman
One of the earliest syllabic inscriptions from Africa comes from Oued Mertoutek
Also don't forget the Meroites did not use Demotic.
There would not be a food domesticate and pollen trail because of the fact that the Egyptians mainly cultivated wheat, whereas other African people cultivated millets and sorghum.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: The facts remain that West Africa/West Africans has/have been civilized much longer than Western Europe has and one of the greatest empires(Mali) in Western Africa actually incorporated a land mass larger than Western Europe its self and sustained it for over 400 years, only to be succeeded by an even larger Empire(Songhay). They'd in fact fall ill simply knowing that if they'd simply ponder on the significance of it and if it weren't so often pushed under the rug..
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
You got to be kidding me. Black Americans do not *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. And don't dare tell me that some of the Nubians and it's many stocks went into the Congo and the Congolese were part of the Atlantic slave trade, and that's how black Americans share ancient Egyptian ancestry.
He didn't say (definitively) that African-Americans share Ancient Egyptian ancestry(or that none do), he's saying that both Ancient Egyptians and ancestors of African-Americans shared African ancestry, which is confirmed as fact..
No, he didn't say that. He said black Americans, as a people of African ancestry, do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. Just because Ancient Egyptians were "African" and black Americans are descendants of "Africans" does not mean they have a *shared* ancestry with Egyptians. Do you think Ethiopians have a *shared* ancestry with Nigerian just because they are both black and African?
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I agree, that an un-substantiated claim of AE ancestry would hurt our credibility.
I don't think it good rely too heavily on cranio-metric studies.
I couldn't find these comments where there were some claims of Arabs being the ruling elite class today[, but remember reading them - I read this thread earlier today].
Well, thing about that is, Arabs haven't been the monumental invading forces of destruction and displacement that alot of us think they were.
Recently, Egypt has undergone Arabization.
However, there were alot of SE European and some South Asian invadors, if I'm correct.
What ever happened to that thread where ausar, Doug M., and rasol informed us about the population growth and displacement throughout the years? - There were details I {yet again} foolishly didn't bookmark or save.
So if I'm getting this right, ausarus, and Thoth, adtive participants of this thread, you're saying that there were NO significant population changes or shifts?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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I do still maintain that African Americans (as well as the West Indies, Cuban and many Brazilians), without a doubt, are descendants of Ancient Kemet. I just can't see how anyone can dispute that. Given the fact that blood mixing has occurred since slavery and excluding current moral, cultural and education differences, it still doesn't diminish the truth about the above mentioned groups having a significant amount African in the blood in them.
Posts: 179 | From: United States | Registered: Jan 2007
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Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
This is based on what study?
The Batrawi study compounded by Crichtons re-evalutation of Brace's study. Sorry I forgot to cite my sources. Of course Egyptians possessed close affinities to West Africans but just not as close to their immediate neighbors.
We've gone through the Brace study [2005], which only had a single west African sample from Benin. He has already acknowledged the glaring flaws in his earlier studies. As for Batrawi, from what I've read, I don't recall him talking about west African being distinct from the Nile Valley, so citation along those lines would be welcomed. Please understand that I'm asking you these specifics based on your original mention of "quite distant from West Africans", when it is clear that West Africa has a host of people with diverse phenotypes, discussed ad nauseam here. In fact, Keita and others before him, have shown that AE crania fit both the so-called 'broad' and 'elongated' archetypes. In this regard, it would be interesting to note why AE crania would be "quite distant from that of West Africans".
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Again, what is our hypothesis? and what is the null hypothesis? Sample size location will affect the outcome because places like Alexandria (Egypt)(obviously) will not be a close sample to the population known as West Africans? To back track, Alexandria can display MtDNA of those who came before, hence showing maternal West African heritage (highly UNLIKELY!) per the specific tribal group while saying Ethiopia, Kenya and Yemen would be likely areas of genetic preponderance!
What do you make of the idea that M1 and U6 for example, are found in both the Lower Egypt and sub-Saharan west Africa?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Polymorphic Alu insertions and genetic diversity among African populations. Publication Date: 01-OCT-05 Publication Title: Human Biology Author: Herrera, Rene J.
"Egypt, which presents the highest number of loci in Hardy-Weinberg disequilibrium, is of particular interest in light of the notoriously heterogeneous genetic composition of this region as a result of past and present migrations. Historically, Egypt has been the recipient of constant genetic flow from northeastern sub-Saharan Africa by means of the Nile River. Moreover, a number of incoming migrations, such as the Middle Eastern penetrations during the introduction of agriculture to Africa as well as later occupations by the Greeks, Romans, and Arabs, have all contributed to a complex genetic landscape in this area (Lucotte and Mercier 2003)."
And
"The population of Egypt examined in this study was collected in the Nile delta and represents individuals of Arab, Berber, and possibly ancient Egyptian descent....The observed affinity between Egypt and Europe might represent a North African signature in the European genetic landscape as a result of historical migrations originating in Africa and reaching Europe through the Levantine corridor (Luis et al. 2004) or the Strait of Gibraltar. Conversely but not exclusively, the European genetic influence on North Africa may be the result of ancient back-flows into the southern Mediterranean basin and/or the consequence of the more recent Minoan, Greek, and Roman penetrations into the area. In light of the proposed Central Asian origin of extant European populations (Semino et al. 2000; Wells et al. 2001), the observed close association between Egypt and Indian groups in the phylogenetic trees may represent a manifestation of this Central Asian footprint in the European genetic background. Furthermore, the fact that in both phylograms (Figure 3) the Kenyan and Rwandan populations (Rwanda in particular) are the most closely related to the Egyptian group attests to the role played by the Nile River as an avenue for genetic flow between groups located to the north and south of the Sahara Desert. Previous analyses with the HpaI mtDNA marker have also suggested the occurrence of south-north gene flow through the Nile valley between sub-Saharan populations and northeastern Africa (Fox 1997).
^Please note that my posts herein, isn't to support the idea of mass migration from AE to western Africa, but to highlight the futility of argumentation which essentially amount to a euphemism for west Africans being some sort of a distinct "race", by way of talking about non-overlapping in both cranio-metric traits/phenotype and genotype across the said regions. One need not make such futile assessments to necessarily argue against "mass" migration from the northeastern corner of Africa.
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Willing Thinker, I never stated that there were no population shifts,nor were there ever demographic changes,but that evidence presented for such claims are not airtight. The issue definately should be taken more seriously and investigated further. Of course, the investigators should also having knowledge of Egypt's demographics from the dyanstic period to even periods of Medieval Egypt. The issue would require a muti-displinary approach to understand further.
Alot of people emphasize the invasions into ancient Egypt but also forget that voluntary and sometimes forced immigration of Asiatics lead to much mixing. Add to this immigration of Phonecians,Grecians,Carians,and others during the Late period. Ancient Egypt is unique because most of the invaders gradually adapting ancient Egyptian customs. Of course, during the Ptolemic and Roman era lots of animosity existed between these two foreign groups. The Romans literally destoryed and replaced the ancient Egyptian traditions with their own. Roman ruled eventually lead to marginalization of ancient Egyptian culture.
Most of the written material come from the elite instead of the commoners. I wonder if the commoners were as ethnocentric as the elite to not accept voluntary or involuntary immigration of Asiatics and others. That's speclative on my behalf but we do have evidence of foreigners working alongside commoners.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves, they have NO IDEA, in most cases, who they are and WHERE they are from. Americans from Europe dont call themselves European Americans, they call themselves Irish, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Greek, French, German and so on... American, all national identities. Only Africans from the diaspora are labelled as one monolithic group, which denies the fact that all Africans are not the same and all do not have the same background.
So, as someone else said, the issue here is one of RESEARCH, where one can actually trace the impact of any sort of migrations or other direct contacts between peoples of the Nile Valley and other parts of Africa. Technically, from a biological point of view, ancient Egyptians and East Africans are ancestral to West Africans as the earliest homo sapiens from Ethiopia and Kenya probably migrated and settled along the Nile before they settled in what is now West Africa. Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa. Now I am sure that continued research will reveal more, but my opinion is that lakes and rivers once existed that branched off the Nile and early humans migrated from East to West and South along such routes. The later populations that back migrated from the Sahara into the Nile Valley being a much more recent occurance than those migrations from 70,000 years BP. Nevertheless, ancient Egypt at the time of the modern slave trade in 1500 BC was long gone and it is therefore ridiculous to talk of relationships that existed thousands of years prior, as any trace of Nile Valley migrants would have been largely diffused into the a large body of African populations. However, that being said, it is true also that Nile Valley Africans played a major role in African cultures 500BC. Nilotic Africans have played a role THROUGHOUT African history, not just in the time of ancient Egypt. There have been contacts between Nile Valley Africans and other Africans throughout African history, although much of this is not properly documented in Western Scholarship.
Fundamentally, Ancient Egypt is part of the heritage of African Americans as both populations stem from the same background, Africa. But that is different from direct ancestry. However, given that human beings first existed in Eastern Africa before any other place on earth and that the Nile is a direct link between the birthplace of modern humans and Egypt, it is not far fetched that ancient Egyptians could have descended from populations that were indeed ancestral to West Africans.
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