posted
Am I missing something here? I am baffled. Anthropologists and genetists appear to be on the right track as far as Europe was concerned except for what accounted for the transition to the modern European populations.
"A more recent study by Brace et al. (2006) included a craniometric analysis of Upper Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic as well as modern European populations. On the basis of a Neighbor-joining analysis, they found that modern European populations from central and northern Europe were not similar to Neolithic populations from the same regions. While the overall results of the analysis support a model of demic diffusion from the Near East, they also suggest that modern central and northern populations were formed via an extensive admixture between incoming Near Eastern farmers and indigenous hunter-gatherer groups. One of the theoretical aspects missing from this earlier work was anexplicit a priori expectation of the extent to which craniometric data could be auseful or reliable proxy for genetic relationships. Hypotheses relating to thenature of the transition to agriculture must contend with two potentiallyconfounding evolutionary processes: non-neutral dispersal (which disrupts neutral gene flow patterns) and potential non-neutral selection in response to changesin subsistence strategy and/or climate (either via phenotypic plasticity or naturalselection). The substantial changes in food processing associated with the shift to farming were hypothesized to have a knock-on effect on the relative size andshape of the masticatory apparatus (e.g., Pinhasi et al. 2008; Sardi et al. 2004b),although most studies of this kind have focused on the forager farmer transitions in other regions of the world (e.g., Carlson and Van Gerven 1977;Gonza´lez-Jose´ et al. 2005; Paschetta et al. 2010; Sardi et al. 2006). Employing craniometric data as a reliable proxy for neutral genetic data is reliant upon the assumption that cranial morphology is evolving neutrally (Brace et al. 2006) and,therefore, is not likely to be confounded by selective factors relating to climate,diet, or other environmental forces. Fortunately, in recent years a growing body of research into global patterns of human craniometric variation has consistently found that the majority of cranial shape variation in modern human populations is the result of neutralmicroevolutionary factors (Gonza´lez-Jose´ et al. 2004; Harvati and Weaver 2006a,b; Relethford 1994, 2002, 2004; Roseman 2004; Roseman and Weaver 2004, 2007; Smith 2009, 2011; von Cramon-Taubadel and Weaver 2009; von Cramon-Taubadel 2009a,b, 2011). What this suggests is that, on average,diversification of cranial shape differences within and between human popula-tions was the result of mutation, gene flow and genetic drift, rather than being subjected to strong diversifying natural or sexual selection. Moreover, studies comparing matrices of genetic and craniometric distances directly have found a strong level of congruence between them, indicating that in the absence of genetic data, craniometric information can serve as a useful proxy for past population history (e.g., Hubbe et al. 2011; Konigsberg 1990a,b; Strauss and Hubbe 2010; von Cramon-Taubadel and Weaver 2009)."
I am puzzled over the authors hypothesis, "they also suggest that modern central and northern populations were formed via an extensive admixture between incoming Near Eastern farmers and indigenous hunter-gatherer groups." I am wondering who he thinks these so-called indigenous groups of hunter gatherers were. Is this a case of Western scholarship again not wanting to recognize when the bulk of the ancestors of modern Europeans were 3000 years ago. or more importantly WERE NOT?!
Were the Scythians i.e. Massagetae/Goths, Budini, iron age Galatians etc not ancestral to the Germanic and Slavic and Celtic people? Or am I just misreading history. Just because a few populations of hunter- gatherers were in Europe before the neolithic doesn't mean they were the primary ancestors of modern Europeans. I'm not getting what they are stuck on.
Neo-Nutsies may feel free to respond. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Otzi the Iceman, also called Similaun Man, Hauslabjoch Man or even Frozen Fritz, was discovered in 1991, eroding out of a glacier in the Italian Alps near the border between Italy and Austria. The human remains are of a Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic man who was died between about 3350-3300 BC. Because he ended up in a crevasse, his body was perfectly preserved by the glacier in which he was found, rather than crushed by the glacier's movements in the last 5,000 years.
________________________________
Ötzi seems to resemble mostly closely the people of Sardinia. Sardinians have remained moored to their genetic past, enough so that a 5,300 year old individual clearly can exhibit affinities with them.
some scholars have discerned a pre-Indo-European substrate in Sardinian which suggests a connection to the Basque.
New insights into the Tyrolean Iceman’s origin and phenotype as inferred by whole-genome sequencing. Keller et al 2012
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Hey Lioness this one peeked my interest…This is your chance to make up ground on me…you know I am baiting you. right? I have this covered before you began reading this post. That is why I am always so many steps ahead of you. That said….
This is probably the first case of direct evidence of the extermination of Africans on main land Europe commencing 5kya. This African was speared in the chest, his face then crushed in with a mallet and left for dead. Typical European MO?
If you haven’t read BOTH articles (this one and the prior one 2008(?)) please don’t reply. I don’t want to waste keystrokes. Also, make sure you UNDERSTAND the papers.
On a side-note some heavy hitters put their names to this one. eg Underhill, Henn,, Semino, Cabrera, Bustamante et al. These guys although Eurocentrics will “twist” the truth instead of outright falsify data. The study was thorough in many areas but lacking in one or two. This brotha had brown eyes and was O+ just as me. But I am lactose tolerant unlike him. Over 30 and still enjoy several glasses of milk per week.
If you don’t understand it I will critique it for you, soon.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ötzi’s genome also hints at other health problems: Zink’s team found almost two-thirds of the genome of Borrelia borgdorferi, a bacterium that causes Lyme disease. Zink found no other telltale signs of Lyme disease in Ötzi’s preserved tissues, but he speculates that tattoos on the iceman’s spine and ankles and behind his right knee could have been an attempt to treat the joint pain that occurs when the condition goes untreated.
Zink’s team also gathered information about Ötzi’s ancestry. His Y chromosome possesses mutations most commonly found among men from Sardinia and Corsica, and his nuclear genome puts his closest present-day relatives in the same area. Perhaps Ötzi’s kind once lived across Europe, before dying out or interbreeding with other groups everywhere except on those islands.
That makes sense, says Eske Willerslev, a palaeogenomicist at the University of Copenhagen. “Sardinians are a group that people have considered distinct from other Europeans, and in this regard it would be interesting if they were more widely distributed in the past.”
Ötzi's genetic profile marks him as being most closely related to small populations currently living in the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, as well as some of the more remote areas of Georgia and Russia, says geneticist Angela Graefen of the Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy, one of the principal researchers on the paper. That doesn't mean that Ötzi was Sardinian or Corsican, Graefen notes, but that those populations may be the closest living genetic matches to the hunter-gatherers who originally migrated into Europe.
The genome analysis, published this week in Nature Communications, also helps flesh out our picture of Ötzi the man: Researchers now know he had brown eyes, brown hair, type-O blood, and shared the lactose intolerance that was then still the norm among Neolithic Europeans.
Modern interpretation of historical, archaeological and anthropological evidence has proposed two broad hypotheses. The first, formerly more espoused view by Soviet-era researchers, roughly followed Herodotus' (third) account, stating that the Scythians were an Iranic group who arrived from Inner Asia, i.e. from the area of Turkestan and western Siberia.[14][18][19]
An alternative view explains the origin of the Scythian cultural complex to have emerged from local groups of the "Timber Grave" (or Srubna) culture (although this is also associated with the Cimmerians). This second theory is supported by anthropological evidence which has found that Scythian skulls are similar to preceding findings from the Timber Grave culture, and distinct from those of the Central Asian Sacae.[20]
Scythian and related archaeological groups in circum- Pontic region, c. 7th–3rd centuries BC Others have further stressed that "Scythian" was a very broad term used by both ancient and modern scholars to describe a whole host of otherwise unrelated peoples sharing only certain similarities in lifestyle (nomadism), cultural practices and language. The 1st millennium BC ushered a period of unprecedented cultural and economic connectivity amongst disparate and wide-ranging communities. A mobile, broadly similar lifestyle would have facilitated contacts amongst disparate ethnic groupings along the expansive Eurasian steppe from the Danube to Manchuria, leading to many cultural similarities. From the viewpoint of Greek and Persian ancient observers, they were all lumped together under the etic category "Scythians".
Genetics Early physical analyses have unanimously discovered that the Scythians, even those in the east (E.g. Pazyryk region), possessed distinctly European features. This has been supplemented and refined by analysis of ancient DNA.
In a 2009 study, the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The study authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages, the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than central and southern Asia.[21]
In a 2004 study, analysis of the HV1 sequence obtained from a male Scytho-Siberian's remains at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic revealed the individual possessed the N1a maternal lineage.[22] Mitochondrial DNA has been extracted from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic (Russia). Both remains were determined to be of males from a population who had characteristics "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of East Eurasian populations.[23]
In a 2002 study, maternal genetic analysis of Saka period male and female skeletal remains from a double inhumation kurgan located at the Beral site in Kazakhstan was analysed. The two individuals were found to be not closely related and were possibly husband and wife. The HV1 mitochondrial sequence of the male was similar to the Anderson sequence which is most frequent in European populations. Contrary, the HV1 sequence of the female suggested a greater likelihood of Asian origins.
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the first Europeans came from Central Asia across Southern Russia into Northern Europe M173 During the ice age they retreated South After the ice age some returned, hunter gatherers
Many thousands of years later some near Easterners went into the Anatolia region and Southern Europe, farming introduced M172
Later additional people also from Central Asia went into Europe
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Stumbled at the starting block already Lioness..... As I said...Iceman is African, check out this full paper and the one written back in 2008.
========== New insights into the Tyrolean Iceman's origin and phenotype as inferred by whole-genome sequencing
abstract'
'The Tyrolean Iceman, a 5,300-year-old Copper age individual, was discovered in 1991 on the Tisenjoch Pass in the Italian part of the Ötztal Alps. Here we report the complete genome sequence of the Iceman and show 100% concordance between the previously reported mitochondrial genome sequence and the consensus sequence generated from our genomic data. We present indications for recent common ancestry between the Iceman and present-day inhabitants of the Tyrrhenian Sea, that the Iceman probably had brown eyes, belonged to blood group O and was lactose intolerant. His genetic predisposition shows an increased risk for coronary heart disease and may have contributed to the development of previously reported vascular calcifications. Sequences corresponding to ~60% of the genome of Borrelia burgdorferi are indicative of the earliest human case of infection with the pathogen for Lyme borreliosis.
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Still can't distinguish Facts from Fiction when you read these papers...huh!
1. Facts are the data presented. 2. Fiction is in the Introduction and the "meaning" of the data ...ie spin.
It is very simple.
The skillful Eurocentric authors don't lie or at least minimize the lies eg Underhill and Henn.
What they do instead is leave bits and pieces of information OUT. They may publish it but most times in the Supplemental. So you HAVE to go find it.
Did you read the Supplementals????
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the first Europeans came from Central Asia across Southern Russia into Northern Europe M173 During the ice age they retreated South After the ice age some returned, hunter gatherers
Many thousands of years later some near Easterners went into the Anatolia region and Southern Europe, farming introduced M172
Later additional people also from Central Asia went into Europe
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posted
Still missing the fundamentals Lioness. There is no Refugia Theory. Half the genetic researchers don't beleive it. Do more reading.
There is no Refugia because R-M269 wasn't IN Europe during and immediately after the LGM. Of the 10's of aDNA sampled so far up to the Bronze age...no R-M269 has been found!!!! In other words, R-M269 never took refuge in Iberia!!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the first Europeans came from Central Asia across Southern Russia into Northern Europe M173 During the ice age they retreated South After the ice age some returned, hunter gatherers
Many thousands of years later some near Easterners went into the Anatolia region and Southern Europe, farming introduced M172
Later additional people also from Central Asia went into Europe
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Still missing the fundamentals Lioness. There is no Refugia Theory. Half the genetic researchers don't beleive it. Do more reading.
There is no Refugia because R-M269 wasn't IN Europe during and immediately after the LGM. Of the 10's of aDNA sampled so far up to the Bronze age...no R-M269 has been found!!!! In other words, R-M269 never took refuge in Iberia!!!
If you wnat to take the refugia theory out of the equation we are left with:
the first Europeans came from Central Asia across Southern Russia into Northern Europe M173 During the ice age they left Europe and/or died
Many thousands of years later some near Easterners went into the Anatolia region and Southern Europe, farming introduced M172
Later additional people also from Central Asia went into Europe
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Stumbled at the starting block already Lioness..... As I said...Iceman is African, check out this full paper and the one written back in 2008.
========== New insights into the Tyrolean Iceman's origin and phenotype as inferred by whole-genome sequencing
abstract'
'The Tyrolean Iceman, a 5,300-year-old Copper age individual, was discovered in 1991 on the Tisenjoch Pass in the Italian part of the Ötztal Alps. Here we report the complete genome sequence of the Iceman and show 100% concordance between the previously reported mitochondrial genome sequence and the consensus sequence generated from our genomic data. We present indications for recent common ancestry between the Iceman and present-day inhabitants of the Tyrrhenian Sea, that the Iceman probably had brown eyes, belonged to blood group O and was lactose intolerant. His genetic predisposition shows an increased risk for coronary heart disease and may have contributed to the development of previously reported vascular calcifications. Sequences corresponding to ~60% of the genome of Borrelia burgdorferi are indicative of the earliest human case of infection with the pathogen for Lyme borreliosis.
more from the same article:
We found indication for recent common ancestry between the Iceman and present-day inhabitants of the Tyrrhenian Sea (particularly Corsica and Sardinia), that the Iceman probably had brown eyes, belonged to blood group O and was probably lactose intolerant.
As we know Europeans all have blond hair and blues eyes (especially Italians) and have always been lactose tolerant.
Ok let's move on.
You say Otzi man was an African to be an African you have to not have lived out of Africa for too long. Otherwise just be virtue of having left your homeland after a certian period of time you are considered of the region you currently live in. For exaample American Indians are called indigenous. Yet if we go back in time they are said to have been people originally from Siberia who crossed the Bering Strait. So there was a point at which they had never set foot in North America and were not native Americans. But now that they've been there so man thousands of years they are considered indigenous. So you must think Otzi man had not lived in Europe that long such that he was still African. What leads you to this conclusion he was African? The article you site said he had the closest affinity to present-day inhabitants of the Tyrrhenian Sea (particularly Corsica and Sardinia) and present day Sardinians have a genentic signature that is considered unique amoung Europeans. So do you think the scientists in the article just made that up that there is genetic evidence of Otzi man showing staronger affinity to some Afican populaltion? Which population in Africa are your referring to?
I think in terms of clustering after Sardinians/Corsicans, he would cluster closer to Levantine populations before African, unless you evidence otherwise
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
This is probably the first case of direct evidence of the extermination of Africans on main land Europe commencing 5kya. This African was speared in the chest, his face then crushed in with a mallet and left for dead. Typical European MO?
explain why it is not a story of him being killed by other people who looked like him? You say "direct evidence of the extermination of Africans on main land Europe" Where is this conceptcoming from that there was an extermination of Africans in Europe. Do you not understand that modern Europeans had Africna ancestors or do you prefer the multi regionalist theory over OOA?
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Let's focus only on the paper at hand. Did you read and understand it? Do you understand the genetics involved? Do you understand the "Extension of Africa? Do you understand invasion? Do you understand extermination?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Otzi the Iceman, also called Similaun Man, Hauslabjoch Man or even Frozen Fritz, was discovered in 1991, eroding out of a glacier in the Italian Alps near the border between Italy and Austria. The human remains are of a Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic man who was died between about 3350-3300 BC. Because he ended up in a crevasse, his body was perfectly preserved by the glacier in which he was found, rather than crushed by the glacier's movements in the last 5,000 years.
________________________________
Ötzi seems to resemble mostly closely the people of Sardinia. Sardinians have remained moored to their genetic past, enough so that a 5,300 year old individual clearly can exhibit affinities with them.
some scholars have discerned a pre-Indo-European substrate in Sardinian which suggests a connection to the Basque.
New insights into the Tyrolean Iceman’s origin and phenotype as inferred by whole-genome sequencing. Keller et al 2012
Sorry Charlie - but your out at the starting gate. One man with round head does not a Mesolithic population make. The people he represents (round-heads) were not the predominant people of Europe in the Mesolithic paleolithic or neolithic.
Like it - OR NOT! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: wikipedia, Scythians:
Modern interpretation of historical, archaeological and anthropological evidence has proposed two broad hypotheses. The first, formerly more espoused view by Soviet-era researchers, roughly followed Herodotus' (third) account, stating that the Scythians were an Iranic group who arrived from Inner Asia, i.e. from the area of Turkestan and western Siberia.[14][18][19]
An alternative view explains the origin of the Scythian cultural complex to have emerged from local groups of the "Timber Grave" (or Srubna) culture (although this is also associated with the Cimmerians). This second theory is supported by anthropological evidence which has found that Scythian skulls are similar to preceding findings from the Timber Grave culture, and distinct from those of the Central Asian Sacae.[20]
Scythian and related archaeological groups in circum- Pontic region, c. 7th–3rd centuries BC Others have further stressed that "Scythian" was a very broad term used by both ancient and modern scholars to describe a whole host of otherwise unrelated peoples sharing only certain similarities in lifestyle (nomadism), cultural practices and language. The 1st millennium BC ushered a period of unprecedented cultural and economic connectivity amongst disparate and wide-ranging communities. A mobile, broadly similar lifestyle would have facilitated contacts amongst disparate ethnic groupings along the expansive Eurasian steppe from the Danube to Manchuria, leading to many cultural similarities.
I'm glad you brought this up. As you can see most researchers know that the Scythians were not a single population but that Scythian just a general name for people of the north or Eurasian plains whom were in fact of African, east Asian and modern European affiliation. Which just reconfirms how numerous were the ancestors of modern Northern Europeans in the world - NOT VERY - in the early Bronze Age period.
BTW - Timber Grave Srubnaya culture was an example of the early black i.e. proto-mediterranean (dolichocephalic) presence that led to trephination among the other Scythians as represented by the Andronovo people who probably adopted these practices and their Gods.
On the other hand the brachycranic people represented by Otzi were undoubtedly that group that showed up with a palaeolithic culture (mentioned by Mellaarte) in Cyprus during the time the Mesolithic and megalith-making Neolithic African-affiliated peoples in Asia (whose culture they half-adopted) i.e. the makers of Chatal Huyuk, Natufian, Ubaid, LBK Linear Band Ceramic, Danubian, Chamblandes GOBEKLI TEPE and so many other EUROPEAN and EURASIATIC cultures were THRIVING.
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^delusional as usual...
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Man this is some fascinating and captivating shyte…Looking past the picture spamming going on at ES. Sage you with me?
Wish there were more here who would get into this stuff besides you and me. I see Amun Ra (also DJ)is coming along but he needs to get past the SSA fixation. This is a human issue, some of these researchers are mis-leading us. But some guys here just parrot words without truly getting in-depth.
Any know of a non-racialist sites out there that can discuss this stuff? I would like to get past the racial name calling post.
I wish more blacks or at least objective researchers would get into this and challenge some of the biases and subjective work being done.
I decided to re-read(2008) this a few days ago after Lioness posted the phenotypic and male lineage study(2010) on the Alps Iceman. I have a better understanding now compared to back then …….and it is growing. Only DNATribes or a company with a large database can answer some of these questions. We will have to wait to see if DNATribes will take this one on.
Sage – correct me…or anyone capable of understanding this stuff.
Keep in mind K1 is found in Africa/Europe/Asia. In fact it is ,<0.05% in modern European lineage.
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Complete Mitochondrial Genome Sequence of the Tyrolean Iceman - Luca Ermini et al
We have then compared it with 115 related extant lineages from mitochondrial haplogroup K. We found that the Iceman belonged to a branch of mitochondrial haplogroup K1 that has not yet been identified in modern European populations.
The Iceman’s mtDNA, therefore, seems to belong to a novel branch of K1, defined by transitions at nucleotide positions 3513 and 8137. To assess the reliability of these two transitions, we checked their distribution throughout the total available complete-mtDNA genome database (as of April 2008). Both mutations, synonymous transitions, occur at low frequency throughout the mtDNA phylogeny and are part of the motif that defines some subhaplogroups, reducing the likelihood of their being phantom mutations . The transition at position 3513 is rare but has been seen previously, having occurred twice in published sequences. It forms part of the subhaplogroup L1c1a2 motif and also specifies, together with a transition at position 8607, the subhaplogroup M1a4
The Iceman’s sequence shares only this mutation with both the L1c1a2 motif and M1a4, excluding any possible identification of mosaic haplotypes.
[b]The transition at position 8137 has been found in samples from Pakistan, India, and the IBERIAN Peninsula. However, all of these samples belong to the major branch of U7 Therefore, again, the transition is known to have occurred during the evolution of the human mtDNA, and it is highly improbable that its presence in the Iceman’s lineage is due to an artifact. As before, the Iceman’s sequence does not show any of the other mutations that define U7, ruling out artificial recombination. The Iceman’s sequence also shares a transition at position 16362 with a single sequence (GenBank number:), belonging to the Family Tree which is the only other paraphyletic K1* complete mtDNA genome found to date: i.e., belonging to K1 but not falling within any of its defined subclades, K1a, K1b, and K1c.
See Iceman K1 sub-haplogroup in Table 1 from the study. The two novel motifs are found ONLY in Africans. There are two African recombinant motifs in K1.
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Now, the above combined with the 2010 Study confirms that the Alps Ice Man has a very very very strong African genetic influence. Remember his confirmed male linage and “actual” autosomal genetic material put him in the realm of either North African, Sardinian or Middle Eastern. He is genetically virtually separate and distinct from CEU/Northern European.
The 2 unique (recombinant)transitions puts him firmly on the African continent. Especially since 3513/L1c1a2 is Biaka, can’t get more African than that. Note I am not saying Ice man is Pygmy or San. I am saying he has close genetic ties to Pygmies. May be North African entering Southern Europe carrying South Saharan genetic material…where have I heard that before.
He is to me another example of the continuous wave of Africans migrating into Europe seeing Europe as an African homeland. Sadly they were mostly exterminated and assimilated.
Hopefully Dienkes and DNATrbies and the like will publish on this…using their extensive database. The researchers used databases from FamilyTree DNA(USA) and Genebase(Mostly European) to get some matches and may be ignored DNATribes. DNATribes seem to cover the entire globe. And they are continuously modifying and updating.
Also check this out –
Alps Ice Man “missense” for SLC45A2. The so-called “white skin” gene. (Explorer and KIK may remember the poster e1b1c(?) and his pet-peeve for SLC45A2). Ha! Ha! Ha! In other words Ice Man does not code for white skin’. GTFOH! They downplay that in the write-up and hide that key piece of information in the supplemental. Instead they focus on another pigmentation gene, HERC2, which codes for blue eyes. To their dismay he does not code for blue eyes either which means he has brown eyes like Africans and most of humanity.
Some researchers correlate HERC1/2 with light skin and others do NOT. That is why they glossed-over SLC45A2 and focused on HERC2. .He was definitely negative for SLC45A2. However most agree HERC codes for blue eyes. Ice Man does not have blue eyes but depending who you believe he MAY have light skin. But no SLC45A2!!!!
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BTW- While researching HERC2 I came across an interesting tid-bit. When I read it I almost fell off my chair. It looks like whites are actually Albinos. I was like WHOAAA!!! I hate calling people names but apparently some here may have been right all along with this Albino thing.
There is hot debate going on right now on the role of HERC2/HERC1 and OCA2 on skin pigmentation. I hate to say this but I may be coming around. It isn’t as simplistic as described by MK/Narmer and others with this Dravidian thing. There are several pigmentation genes involved working their chemical pathways as pointed out by Norton and Kittles. I will post on it sometime. I need to read them several times.
I am slowly coming around. I found it hard to accept but that poster may be right. It is not about Science and Investigation at all. It is not about finding the truth and getting the facts. It is more about maintaining a 200yo institution of European power and dominance. The spin is always about proving European dominance over others. Genetics is becoming the new battle ground of Coonian Anthropology
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Anyone has the article? forget it I got it ==== A decreasing gradient of 374F allele frequencies in the skin pigmentation gene SLC45A2, from the north of West Europe to North Africa
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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motif is only seen in L1c1a2 African pygmies motif is only seen in M1a4 East and North Africans
The other rare transition at position 8137 .....
motif is only seen in Iberia(North Africa) and Pakistan/India
----
There is a common theme here. The 2010/2012 SNP study shows he has close affinity with North Africans/Middle Eastern and Sardinians.
But here is the kicker. He! He! He!. The middle Eastern population tested is none other than.....QATAR!!! Remember we discussed Qatar with the Henn Study and DNATribes. They choose the most "African" of middle Eastern countries for their sampling.
They avoid the Levant...you do why...don't you?
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@ DJ. As I said. Heather Norton is light years ahead of that Jablonski nonsense...."food made them white". Read this paper and you may learn a thing or two then you and KIK may stop parroting that nonsense. There is a reason why latitude and skin pigmentation is a perfect correlation and it has nothing to do with food.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What does this table tell you?
Note Mazabites
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The rare transition at position 3513 .....
motif is only seen in L1c1a2 African pygmies motif is only seen in M1a4 East and North Africans
The other rare transition at position 8137 .....
motif is only seen in Iberia(North Africa) and Pakistan/India
----
There is a common theme here. The 2010/2012 study shows he has close affinity with North Africans/Middle Eastern and Sardinians.
But here is the kicker. He! He! He!. The middle Eastern population tested is none other than.....QATAR!!! Remember we discussed Qater with the Henn Study and DNATribes. They choose the most "African" of middle Eastern countries for their sampling.
They avoid the Levant...you do why...don't you?
The reason for the Qatar difference is recent AD events, look it up
You say there is a common theme. You mentioned L1c1a2 (3153) and 8137 which is Paksitan/India/Iberia not North Africa
Where is the pygmy 3153 in Keller's 2012 New insights of the complete genome ? Where is that theme?
Iberia is not mentioned in the 2012 but North Africa and Qatar are, the article states:
125 individuals from seven North African populations ranging from Egypt to Morocco on the Affymetrix 6.0 array and 20 Qatari samples from the Arabian Peninsula13. When plotting the Iceman's genotype along the first two major axes of variation in Principal Component space (PC1 versus PC2), PC1 is driven by a north-to-south gradient differentiating North Africans from Europeans, and PC2 aligns individuals along north-to-south gradient within Europe (Fig. 3a). The Iceman clusters nearest to southern European samples, suggesting no greater genetic affinity with the North African or Middle Eastern components of variation than present day southern Europeans
Comparisons between genotype and phenotype (diagnostic methane–hydrogen breath test) in South European individuals have shown that the homozygous ancestral C allele causes clinical symptoms in over 85% of cases[22]
[22] Obinu, D. A. et al. Prevalence of lactase persistence and the performance of a non-invasive genetic test in adult Sardinian patients. Eur. E-J. Clin. Nutr. Metab. 5, e1–e5 (2010).
posted
Did you read the supplementals? You have to be knowledgeable and thorough ..if you want to challenge me.
My discussion is on BOTH Papers. 2008 focused on his MtDNA. 2010/2012 focused on his Y-DNA and autosomal SNPs. You do realize in 2010/2012 they did NOT recover his entire genome. But they used "fillings" for the unrecovered portion. They actually recovered close to 70%.
The "actual" recovered DNA portions aligns him with Sardinians, North Africans and Qatari.
Have you ever read up on the history and ethnic groups in Sardinia. You do realize that indigenous Sardinians were reduced to close to several thousand around 17th-18th century. About 80% of "Sardinians" are migrants from the mainland of Europe/Italy.
Delusional imposters as usual.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
BTW - his male lineage, G2a4, is NOT on the European branch of G2. Researching the North African branch, I came up with nothing. Not published. This is why DNATribes will be helpful
If I get access to DNATribes database I can easily answer the questions. May be DNATribes will be forthright again and do a piece on Alps Iceman.
I have a feeling Underhill/Keller et al already know but will not admit it.
It will shatter the delusion.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The "actual" recovered DNA portions aligns him with Sardinians, North Africans and Qatari.
quote the 2012 paper where its says Otzi man is alligned with North Africans. Or table, chart etc. which excluding Sardinians and Qatrai indicates a North African alignment greater than other groups tested
You had begun with pygmies. Pygmies aren't North African. DNATribes says modern Maghrebian North Africans are primarily of non-African ancestry
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still researching G2a4. There are a few databases out there ..I am not the only one digging into this.
from Genebase: ====== QUOTE: Hi Morad,
Are you in the FTDNA G Project? Did you test with 23andMe? I think they may be listing "G2a4" in the wrong way. This might actually be G2a3b1a or G2a1. (They list G2c* as "G2c1" and haven't fixed it yet.)
G2a4 itself actually seems to be Druze, Palestinian, Upper Egyptian, and from Saudi Arabia, in fact quite "Arab" but it doesn't seem to be found north of the Galilee, even in Lebanon. We aren't quite sure though since no one has actually tested these G haplotypes beyond M201, which is just G.
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posted
That would align with K1/M1a4(East/North African)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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