posted
Ancient Egyptian ethnographic "mural of the races" found in the tomb of Rameses III - Monuments from Egypt and Ethiopia by Karl Richard Lepsius (German: "Denkmaler aus Agypten und Athiopian"). French Egyptologist Champollion found similar murals in other royal tombs.
The hieroglyphics to the right of each figure labels each one:
Rome (abbreviated; Ret) - Ancient Egyptians: Men. We also have "romé na romé" or "Men above men (mankind)." This ideology allows us to understand that there are actually only three races represented here; Black, White, and Semitic since the Egyptians considered themselves in a class of their own, while still showing that they belonged to the Black racial group.
Namu - Semite:Travelers or wanderers: We also have "Namu Sho" or "People who travel the sands": Nomads or Bedu.
Nahasu - Other Africans: Strangers or barbarians; Blacks who were not Black Egyptians
Tamhu - European: Red/pale yellow people ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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A description by Champollion, where he says the Egyptian and the Nubian are depicted almost the same, is found in Diop's book African origin. I'm not sure if it refers to this particular mural.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What's up with this white boy? You are really becoming annoying. What is the point of this post. . .along with the one from Rameses III tomb.
If you point is, Africans were slaves come out and say it. Idiot! we are not fooled!!!
quote:Originally posted by the lion: actual photo, not illustration, Tomb of Rameses III
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lion: you missed the whole point of this thread that modern illustrations are different from the actual photos of the original paintings on the wall. Then you go off posting another one.
Don't be a fool, troll. No missed the point of this troll thread.
My point is modern illustrations don't match actual photos. Secondly that Egyptians do not portray themselves as having the exact same clothing as Nahasu. (that should be obvious) And the other photo shows captive Nubians looking different from their captor Egyptians.
I'm of West African heritage, I don't care that much about these AEs with ostentatious tombs and dead culture
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posted
You have earned my respect in this thread 'the lion.' That was an excellent, right and exact post you put up.
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One way apart from the different skin tone and features you can tell a Nubian from an Egptian is that the Nubians are often shown with a wide sash which goes diagonally across their chest, swings around their waist like a belt and the remainder hangs far down below their waist. That is not the AE style to have it that wide and going across the chest diagonally.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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You are incredibly unintelligent and completely illiterate in the Mdu Ntr. The first figure - duplicated to create symmetry with the more important text above - is NOT Nahasu but rather Romé, which can be determined by the Ntr or "God" glyph between the first two figures...
The first figure(s) is an Ancient Egyptian!Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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______________________________________________ You are incredibly unintelligent and completely illiterate in the Mdu Ntr. The first figure - duplicated to create symmetry with the more important text above - is NOT Nahasu but rather Romé, which can be determined by the Ntr or "God" glyph between the first two figures...
The first figure(s) is an Ancient Egyptian!
1) these are three PAIRS of figures
2) Egyptians don't wear the same as Nahasu
That is obvious
stop lying for political convenience, that goes against the Ma'at
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: One way apart from the different skin tone and features you can tell a Nubian from an Egptian
What is the skin tone and features that supposedly distinguishes the two?
tribute bearers to Hekanefer, Prince of Miam (Aniba), a region of northern Nubia
good point, sometimes you can't tell exclusively by skin tone. That's why I also included facial features and clothing. The picture above shows two shades of Nahasu they are working together, have Nubian features, the same clothing and hairstyle.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: good point, sometimes you can't tell exclusively by skin tone. That's why I also included facial features and clothing. The picture above shows two shades of Nahasu they are working together, have Nubian features, the same clothing and hairstyle.
LOL predictably, troll, you ran from skin tone now you want to hide behind features. But not even here you can get comfort since those features ["elongated type"] are also shared by both groups of blacks. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
I thought I asked you troll to tell me the features that supposedly distinguish the two?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: I thought I asked you troll to tell me the features that supposedly distinguish the two?
I will answer. In the picture below everybody has the same features
Now a question for you, who are the people above? Don't pussy out on me and silently jump in your rabbit hole.
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posted
Jesus Christ bitch, what are the features that supposedly distinguish "Nubians" from Egyptians. You said there were, I'm waiting.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Jesus Christ bitch, what are the features that supposedly distinguish "Nubians" from Egyptians. You said there were, I'm waiting.
I'll be happy to answer the question but first you have to apologize for calling me a bitch and then make a new separate post asking the question with no sarcastic wording.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I think title of this thread is misleading:
"Topic: The Ancient Egyptian View of Race"
There is no information on their view of race or even if they had one.
The word "race" being used is a questionable translation.
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
This ideology allows us to understand that there are actually only three races represented here; Black, White, and Semitic since the Egyptians considered themselves in a class of their own, while still showing that they belonged to the Black racial group.
the problem with this statement is that
1) Wally is claiming that the Egyptians considered themselves in a class of their own, while still showing that they belonged to the Black racial group yet at the same time showing pictures where he claims there is no attempt made to make an Egyptian look in any way, including clothing, as in a different class, such as by clothing.
2) how is this depicting that depicting three "races" is "ideological" In fact the different types of people depicted are more than three if you look at the full picture as alTakruri pointed out:
Once you see the whole picture (even though a photo would be better), and see that there are 5 or 6 different types represented the idea that the word "races" as a translation may have been wrong and what we are really looking at are various nationalities. For example, the people in the full picture that look like they are of the same race or near to the same race aren't even grouped together.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: I think title of this thread is misleading:
"Topic: The Ancient Egyptian View of Race"
There is no information on their view of race or even if they had one...
...it is because you're a child who, being unable to read, can just look at the pictures.
--You then accuse the Ancient Egyptians of not having a view on race in order for you to present your own ill informed one.
--If you could read Mdu Ntr, you would know that the seven figures below are labeled; Romé, Namu, Nahasu, Romé, Namu, Nahasu, Tamhu - that's four!
The un-obscured part of the word Romé (Ntr or "Divine men/people")
--and you poor simpleton, I doubt that you understand the concept of ideology; the Ancient Egyptians referred to themselves as "romé na romé" or "Men above mankind", which most would agree is explicit ethnic chauvinism...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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--and you poor simpleton, I doubt that you understand the concept of ideology; the Ancient Egyptians referred to themselves as "romé na romé" or "Men above mankind", which most would agree is explicit ethnic chauvinism... [/QB]
oh you mean racists?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: I think title of this thread is misleading:
"Topic: The Ancient Egyptian View of Race"
There is no information on their view of race or even if they had one...
...it is because you're a child who, being unable to read, can just look at the pictures.
--You then accuse the Ancient Egyptians of not having a view on race in order for you to present your own ill informed one.
--If you could read Mdu Ntr, you would know that the seven figures below are labeled; Romé, Namu, Nahasu, Romé, Namu, Nahasu, Tamhu - that's four!
The un-obscured part of the word Romé (Ntr or "Divine men/people")
1) It was dishonest for you to post only the lower portion of this mural when you knew there were more figures. This is because you have what you claim to be two Romés on the bottom. No problem they look the same. But the Romé in the top row looks different. I guess you wanted to be simplistic about it and leave that out.
2) this illustration (not a photo) still does not make sense to me. Having two Namus makes sense because there are two types of Namu showing. So there are two of them two show that Namu can look two ways. Regardless of a different looking Rome on the top row why is there two Romes on the bottom looking exactly the same? What is the purpose of that? You have one of each of what Budge calls "races". But that scheme is broken, all of the sudden there are two for no apparent reason.
3) There are consistensies with clothing as it pertains to nationality, You continue to ignore this.
4) tou take this one illustration from one tomb and make a broad reaching statement " "The Ancient Egyptian View of Race"
That's being a simpleton
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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A description by Champollion, where he says the Egyptian and the Nubian are depicted almost the same, is found in Diop's book African origin. I'm not sure if it refers to this particular mural.
It does indeed, and these early Egyptologists clearly recognized and stated, because they could read Mdu Ntr, that these three races/ethnicities/phenotypes could be represented by any nationality which fit into the Ancient Egyptians' concept of the three racial types; you know, like today, a European can be a Greek, a German, a Frenchman...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
ASIATICS (NON-BLACKS) WERE ALSO CALLED AMU BY THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS, WHICH ESSENTIALLY MEANS CRUDE, UNSOPHISTICATED PEASANTS...
...
quote:The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three Ancient Egyptian words:
Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"
Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt
Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in Ancient Egypt. The phrase is a contemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in Ancient Egypt who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces. --Ade from J. Olumide Lucas' book
A description by Champollion, where he says the Egyptian and the Nubian are depicted almost the same, is found in Diop's book African origin. I'm not sure if it refers to this particular mural.
It does indeed, and these early Egyptologists clearly recognized and stated, because they could read Mdu Ntr, that these three races/ethnicities/phenotypes could be represented by any nationality which fit into the Ancient Egyptians' concept of the three racial types; you know, like today, a European can be a Greek, a German, a Frenchman...
The whole problem with that is that if there was some European mural showing "races" and in the white category they had one figure representing a Frenchman and another figure used to show a different nationality of white person. a German, they would be distinguished by different clothing and hairstyle. You can't escape this logic. There were early Egyptian military invasions of Nubia. The Egyptians portrayed the Nubians in their art with different clothing, jewelry and hairstyle. But we can't look at that because it doesn't fit into an agenda.
This illustration in the first post is labeled "Mural of Races"
Elsewhere it is called "Table of Nations"
Nationalism is different than Racial Supremacy
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: The Egyptians portrayed the Nubians in their art with different clothing, jewelry and hairstyle.
So you finally dropped your features and skin tone distinctions. LOL!
no, Nubians who were sometimes friendly with the Egyptians other times at war with them, are portrayed by the Egyptians in addition to different clothing, jewelry and hairstyle and the people they portray with this different clothing, jewelry and hairstyle have darker skin, wider nostrils and larger lips. happy now?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: have darker skin, wider nostrils and larger lips.happy now?
Yeh, I'm happy you dummy. You already said you can't tell by skin tone, now you claim they have "darker" skin. LOL!
You say they have wider nostrils and larger lips yet the pictures above show how idiotic your stereotypical portrayal of "Nubian" features are. LOL!
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: have darker skin, wider nostrils and larger lips.happy now?
Yeh, I'm happy you dummy. You already said you can't tell by skin tone, now you claim they have "darker" skin. LOL!
You say they have wider nostrils and larger lips yet the pictures above show how idiotic your stereotypical portrayal of "Nubian" features are. LOL!
Look at all the pictures throughout the dynasties not just the one with the incorrect explanation that happens to fit your political agenda
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posted
Nice try chimu, there are Egyptians also with dark skin and broad features. So again I ask, what are these distinguishing phenotypes that supposedly separates "Nubians" from Egyptians? Your political agenda is multiracialism, this is why you have yet to cite any scientific study to back up any of your claims. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Here are a couple of things to note about the above: 1) the paint of the guards or "policemen" has faded or maybe scrubbed. There is one whose paint is not faded and it is exactly the same colour as the sitting prisoners. I don't get the impression that the prisoners are slaves. Most likely war or skirmish prisoners. But they do look like South Sudanese such as Dinka, Nuer, or any of the host of South Sudan ethnic groups.
The guards themselves absent the paint would not be bona fide Egyptians. They could be migrants into Egypt who were given guard work. [Think of the Southern United States and the border guards many of whom are of Mexican-mestizo extraction]
With the brown paint restored--again the guards could locals or resident non-locals. The important thing though is to translate the caption on the mural.
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Nice try chimu, there are Egyptians also with dark skin and broad features. So again I ask, what are these distinguishing phenotypes that supposedly separates "Nubians" from Egyptians? Your political agenda is multiracialism, this is why you have yet to cite any scientific study to back up any of your claims.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: But they do look like South Sudanese such as Dinka, Nuer, or any of the host of South Sudan ethnic groups.
yes I agree
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: The important thing though is to translate the caption on the mural.
That is absolutely correct. Some here would rather post images and then present their OWN views on the topic. This thread is about the Ancient Egyptians' own views...
For example:
How the Ancient Egyptians viewed the Sudan historically
Names for Sudan found in Budge's The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2
Khentu Hon Nefer (page 554a) = founders of the Excellent Order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: The important thing though is to translate the caption on the mural.
That is absolutely correct. Some here would rather post images and then present their OWN views on the topic. This thread is about the Ancient Egyptians' own views...
For example:
How the Ancient Egyptians viewed the Sudan historically
Names for Sudan found in Budge's The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2
Khentu Hon Nefer (page 554a) = founders of the Excellent Order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Ta Khent (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Eau (page 952b/page 17b) = the old country ...
I see your strategy. It is to use Budge's dictionary to define a single word and then make a broad reaching statement covering the whole history about it. The Egyptians had different types of relations with the Kushites of Sudan in different periods. Sometimes they had friendly relations and sometimes they were at war with them. Are you telling me that there are no negative comments by the Egyptians toward them? I don't think a dictionary definition of a single word resolves a cultural viewpoint or that one cultural viewpoint is maintained the same way in a long history. Today we speak of nationalities, there are a huge number of them. When we speak of race it is a category of only a few types. Numerous nationalities can be fit into each so called "race" category. The mural in question is sometimes called "The Mural of Races" and elsewhere called the "Table of Nations" Find me the glyph which distinguishes a word "race" from a different word "nation" or "nationality". Also any Mural which is alleged to show different races should also have apart from a generalized definition of a single word in a dictionary (assuming that the definition is perfect) -should have bodies of text describing a so called racial description of each the figure shown. Now give us translations of the all the text surrounding this Table of Nations or the so called "Mural of Races". It is not talking about race.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: Numerous nationalities can be fit into each so called "race" category
Yes, but how you do it (e.g. Negro=Nubian, Egyptian=nonNegro) is based purely on conventional anthropological stereotypes; it is not science.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: Numerous nationalities can be fit into each so called "race" category
Yes, but how you do it (e.g. Negro=Nubian, Egyptian=nonNegro) is based purely on conventional anthropological stereotypes; it is not science.
Egypt was more diverse than Nubia because of it's location, at the narrow bottleneck between continents bordering both the Mediterranean and Red Seas. Egyptian= Negro/nonNegro
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: Egyptian= Negro/nonNegro
^ Like I said, social constructs based on (outdated) anthropological racial stereotypes. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: Egyptian= Negro/nonNegro
^ Like I said, social constructs based on (outdated) anthropological racial stereotypes.
discarding racial stereotypes is not the same as discarding the concept of race altogether
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posted
Why are you children using my thread to argue your foolishness? Take your besides the point crap to the more appropriate Ancient Egypt forum!
If you don't have anything to add or to debate regarding the topic, then DON'T POST HERE ANYTHING ELSE!Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: "my thread"? lol
Some of us take this internet thing way too seriously..
Are you that dense?? Whoever starts a topic, it becomes their thread; lacking sufficient moderation, it then becomes the responsibility of the topic originator to moderate his own thread...
You can LOL until your ass falls off, but refrain from posting irrelevant nonsense on this thread!Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Ancient Egyptian ethnographic "mural of the races" found in the tomb of Rameses III - Monuments from Egypt and Ethiopia by Karl Richard Lepsius (German: "Denkmaler aus Agypten und Athiopian"). French Egyptologist Champollion found similar murals in other royal tombs.
The hieroglyphics to the right of each figure labels each one:
Rome (abbreviated; Ret) - Ancient Egyptians: Men. We also have "romé na romé" or "Men above men (mankind)." This ideology allows us to understand that there are actually only three races represented here; Black, White, and Semitic since the Egyptians considered themselves in a class of their own, while still showing that they belonged to the Black racial group.
Namu - Semite:Travelers or wanderers: We also have "Namu Sho" or "People who travel the sands": Nomads or Bedu.
Nahasu - Other Africans: Strangers or barbarians; Blacks who were not Black Egyptians
Tamhu - European: Red/pale yellow people ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
ASIATICS (NON-BLACKS) WERE ALSO CALLED AMU BY THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS, WHICH ESSENTIALLY MEANS CRUDE, UNSOPHISTICATED PEASANTS...
...
quote:The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three Ancient Egyptian words:
Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"
Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt
Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in Ancient Egypt. The phrase is a contemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in Ancient Egypt who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces. --Ade from J. Olumide Lucas' book
posted
Every serious student of Egyptology should read carefully and analytically the following quote by Champollion the younger regarding the oldest ethnological document available to us:
quote: Right in the valley of Biban-el-Moluk, we admired, like all previous visitors, the astonishing freshness of the paintings and the fine sculptures on several tombs. I had a copy made of the peoples represented on the bas-reliefs. At first I had thought, from copies of these bas-reliefs published in England, that these peoples of different races led by the god Horus holding his shepherd's staff, were indeed nations subject to the rule of the Pharaohs. A study of the legends informed me that this tableau has a more general meaning. It portrays the third hour of the day, when the sun is beginning to turn on its burning rays, warming all the inhabited countries of our hemisphere. According to the legend itself, they wished to represent the inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to the Egyptians and we learn at the same time the great geographical or ethnographical divisions established during that early epoch. Men led by Horus, the shepherd of the peoples, belong to four distinct families. The first, the one closest to the god, has a dark red color, a well-proportioned body, kind face, nose slightly aquiline, long braided hair, and is dressed in white. The legends designate this species as Rot-en-ne-Rome, the race of men par excellence i.e., the Egyptians. There can be no uncertainty about the racial identity of the man who comes next: he belongs to the Black race, designated under the general term Nahasi. The third presents a very different aspect; his skin color borders on yellow or tan; he has a strongly aquiline nose, thick, black pointed beard, and wears a short garment of varied colors; these are called Namou. Finally, the last one is what we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body; he is called Tamhou. I hastened to seek the tableau corresponding to this one in the other royal tombs and, as a matter of fact, I found it in several. The variations I observed fully convinced me that they had tried to represent here the inhabitants of the four corners of the earth, according to the Egyptian system, namely: 1. the inhabitants of Egypt which, by itself, formed one part of the world ...; 2. the inhabitants of Africa proper: Blacks; 3. Asians; 4. finally (and I am ashamed to say so, since our race is the last and the most savage in the series), Europeans who, in those remote epochs, frankly did not cut too fine a figure in the world. In this category we must include all blonds and white-skinned people living not only in Europe, but Asia as well, their starting point. This manner of viewing the tableau is all the more accurate because, on the other tombs, the same generic names reappear, always in the same order. We find there Egyptians and Africans represented in the same way, which could not be otherwise; but the Namou (the Asians) and the Tamhou (Europeans) present significant and curious variants. Instead of the Arab or the Jew, dressed simply and represented on one tomb, Asia's representatives on other tombs (those of Ramses II, etc.) are three individuals, tanned complexion, aquiline nose, black eyes, and thick beard, but clad in rare splendor. In one, they are evidently Assyrians, their costume, down to the smallest detail, is identical with that of personages engraved on Assyrian cylinders. In the other, are Medes or early inhabitants of some part of Persia. Their physiognomy and dress resemble, feature for feature, those found on monuments called Persepolitan. Thus, Asia was represented indiscriminately by any one of the peoples who inhabited it. The same is true of our good old ancestors, the Tamhou. Their attire is sometimes different; their heads are more or less hairy and adorned with various ornaments; their savage dress varies somewhat in form, but their white complexion, their eyes and beard all preserve the character of a race apart. I had this strange ethnographical series copied and colored. I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve as vignettes for the history of the primitive Europeans, if ever one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeing them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved.
quote:those most detested by the Egyptians were the Asian shepherds of all kinds, from the Semites to the Indo-Europeans, for these, no epithets were insulting enough... "ignoble Asians," "accursed" and "pestiferous," "pillagers," "thieves..." ---from African Origin of Civilization, C.A. Diop, page 62
posted
I have to thank Wally for posting the above Champollion. It clears up a dispute over the identities of the four "races" or nationalities. It turns out that the identities of these races or nationalities has nothing to do with the four figures in the initial post. The identities of the figures apply to four different figures, total 8, of the same mural as discussed here:
quote:those most detested by the Egyptians were the Asian shepherds of all kinds, from the Semites to the Indo-Europeans, for these, no epithets were insulting enough... "ignoble Asians," "accursed" and "pestiferous," "pillagers," "thieves..." ---from African Origin of Civilization, C.A. Diop, page 62
This blows the perception/myth that AE was a multiracial society (as compared to "Nubia") out of the water.
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