posted
According to the Mdu Ntr and also the modern Coptic language, the word "Kush" simply means "the lands south of Egypt." It is a synonym for the word(s) that mean "border; frontier; etc" - Thosh, Ethosh...
Words for Kush; Kushite Ekush; Ekushti; Ukushti Kashi - (Coptic: Ethosh) Kashi.t - (Coptic: Ethoshi; Etchooshe)
Mdu Ntr words for frontier; front-land (South); border Ube Hon.t Khen.t (E)Tash (Coptic: Tosh) (E)Thash
Clearly, the words Ethoshi, Ekushi are simply different ways of saying the same things. It defines this (also repeated in the first book of Moses) as the southern regions, and which formed part of the Km.t Nw.t or "The Black Nations." (also repeated in the first book of Moses as "The Sons of Ham; Kush, Mizraim (Egypt), Phut, and Canaan.)
Mdu Ntr Synonyms for "Kushites" - which means "peoples in the lands south of Egypt" Khentiu = "The Founders" : Budge lists "Khent = in the front, in the fore part, before, aforetime, formerly, previously, in advance, the beginning, the land south of Egypt." Kentiu Hon-Nefer = "Founders of the Perfect Order"
This doesn't preclude the later adoption of this term, at a specific time to designate a particular state(s); for example, the same as the Pharaoh who used the title, Pa Nahasi (the barbarian; the foreigner; the stranger; the one from the south; etc.) Many of the original Nile Valley Civilizations' geographical terms were later duplicated in Asia (ie, Shinar, Kush, etc.)...
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posted
The Hebrew word Kush derives from the AEL word Kesh which which in turn comes from the word QEVS.
Hansberry (1977) say, after Sayce and Griffith of Oxford based on an inscription, the people under question themselves used Qevs as the original indigenous designation of their own country.
Unfortunately William Leo Hansberry died before he could publish that information in Africa & Africans himself and the published book's editor, Joseph Harris, occluded footnotes. However I did find this in the biblio:
Griffith, F. L. Meroitic Studies III and IV Journal of Egyptian Archeaology v4 London, 1917 pp. 21-24, 159-173
The precise info can be retrieved via interlibrary loan at a university.
The northern part of QEVS they called Keneset while the southern area to clear past the 6th cataract they called Alu.
One of the northern divisions was known as Athiye whence Aethiopia, and one of the southern divisions was Yesbe.
Hansberry knew more than 100 native QEVS words for their towns and cities and neighboring inhabitations including designations that covered wide stretches of land and diverse groups of people but he didn't get to publish them. He does tell us that Meroe is from the QEVS word for the city Merheu.
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Numerous possibilities for its origin have been put forward, including:
* that the name is a corruption of "Caucasus Indicus." * In modern Persian, the word "Kush" is derived from the verb Kushtan - to defeat, kill, or subdue. This could be interpreted as a memorial to the Indian captives who perished in the mountains while being transported to Central Asian slave markets., or to the massive number of natives that invading Muslims killed in the 11th century before the remainder accepted Muslim rule and converted to Islam: before that, the Hindu kingdms of Kabul and Zabol resisted the Muslims for 4 centuries: see this link. * that the name refers to the last great 'killer' mountains to cross when moving between the Afghan plateau and the Indian subcontinent, named after the toll it took on anyone crossing them; * that the name is a corruption of Hindu Koh, from the (modern) Persian word Kuh, meaning mountain. Rennell, writing in 1793, refers to the range as the "Hindoo-Kho or Hindoo-Kush"; * that the name means Mountains of India or Mountains of the Indus in some of the Iranian languages that are still spoken in the region; that furthermore, many peaks, mountains, and related places in the region have "Kosh" or "Kush" in their names.
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posted
Or the Kassites seem to have been refered to as Cush
Like the Biblical Cush, son of Ham. The Empire of Kush to the south of Egypt is known from early times, but this name has also been associated by some with the Kassites (cush-ites even possibly Kassidim) who inhabited the Zagros area of Mesopotamia.
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posted
I don't know. The word isn't in Rn Mdw. Its in the language language native to Qevs. That language could belong to Afrisan or NiloSaharan or ...?
When the monarchies were initiated TaWy went on to embrace writing. Qevs kept signs and symbols but held out on writing for some hundreds of years. By the time monarchies were instituted all the Afrisan subsets were seperate.
But if we examine languages by the affinity model instead of the genetic tree model regional languages would've had some lexiconical compatibility.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One of the northern divisions was known as Athiye whence Aethiopia, and one of the southern divisions was Yesbe.
Does Athiye have a known meaning in mdw ntr?
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posted
Let me first state that I truly admire and respect the pioneering work of professor Hansberry. Sadly he, like Lorrain Hansberry, died too soon. I feel, however, that he, like many of his time, and some in the present, operated within the confines of White historical dogma regarding Ancient Egypt and African history. The focus of the African historians then was to emphasize the "Ethiopian/Nubian/Negro" contributions to Ancient Egyptian culture, rather than directly challenge White historical dogma; it took Diop to do that. So now I challenge the concepts put forward...
quote: The Hebrew word Kush derives from the AEL word Kesh which in turn comes from the word QEVS...etc, etc
a) Kush is an Egyptian word; it was a loan word in Hebrew, borrowed from the Mdu Ntr.
b) How does one derive Kush from Qvs? Shouldn't we first know the meaning of the etymon?
c) It is simplistic to confine the discussion to a single word; there were many words in the Mdu Ntr for "Kush" ; this is the same dogmatic way that the White historians use with the word "Kemet", as though it was the only self-descriptive word in the Pharaonic Egyptian vocabulary - it's parochial thinking.
again... Ancient and Modern Egyptian Words for Kush; Kushite Ekush Ekushti Ukushti Kash (Kahsh) Kashi (Kah.shee) Ethosh Kashi.t Ethoshi Etchooshe (Ate.Koo.shay) Kas
Hansberry's words and the Mdu Ntr Athiye (??)
Alu = Child
Keneset = Kens/Kenset > Kenus - which were an ancient people of Egypt/Sudan - the Kenus people still exist today.
Merheu - Merhu was a Sudani country (pg 1001); Meroe was the name of Cambyses', the Persian colonizer of the ancient Nile Valley, sister. You all decide the origin of the name Meroe...
Yesbe (??)
To stress the importance of the southern kingdoms over Kemet would be the same as to try and prove that the Hausa/Fulani civilization was greater than that of the Songhai. It isn't done, simply because White folks didn't steal the Songhai...
Ancient African history developed thusly (dialectically) > pre-Saharan cultures > The Ancient Fertile Saharan cultures > The Sudanese culture > The Egyptian culture ...
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posted
Now Wally you know more about AEL than I do but this has got to stop.
We need to examine this without the hackneyed objective of protesting against "the white man." It's a matter of linguistics. I wouldn't look for definitions of English words in a German dictionary. So I quite naturally don't expect to find every Qevs word in a Rn Mdw lexicon.
To go from Qevs to Kesh to Kush is phonetically simple enough. But it seems very imperialistic to assume the people of Kush needed people downriver to supply them with a name.
It does appear there were significant language differences between Kush (Khartoum to near Edfu) and Egypt (Biga to the Mediterranean) which is why Meroitic inscriptions largely await translation (Dr Winter's work excepted).
Hansberry used Budge's translation of the Nastesen stele to arrive at Kenset and Alu. He also used many primary documents. There's no need to besmirch Hansberry as chasing white ghosts while at the same time actually relying on Budge (a white man) yourself.
It seems much more within the confines of "white historical dogma" to prefer "the white man's" purely anecdotal "sister of Cambyses" origin for Meroe when the people there at the place themselves left Merheu on record. What, they waited for the Persians to come around and name their city for them? Now that's really chasing a white ghost instead of acknowleding the firsthand research revelation from a black scholar. But then so many just won't believe it until "Simon says". It's the old doctor vs coloured doctor mentality, you know, a coloured doctor isn't a real doctor. So Hansberry's research isn't real research, its some old off the mark inferior coloured research.
I strongly suggest purchasing and reading Hansberry's Africa and Africans on indigenous Kush designations before speculatively criticising it and accusing him of being an unwitting "dupe of the white man." Keita isn't the only trustworthy black scholar just because "Simon says" he is.
Like it or not there was a major fork in the previously unified Nile Valley cultural complex that commenced with the development of distinct TaWy and TaSeti polities.Recognizing this in no way stresses the importance of either one over the other. And I've written on the continued interaction between the two. Two brothers from the same mother and father are not one and the same individual no matter how close they are, not even if they're twins. Time to learn up some on brother Kush independent of brother Egypt.
The name the people of Qevs had for themselves entered the Rn Mdw lexicon. Languages are constantly infused with loan words which then take on variations and even new meanings. This is usually revealed by the lack of a native root word having the radicals of the infusion.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Now Wally you know more about AEL than I do but this has got to stop.
We need to examine this without the hackneyed objective of protesting against "the white man." It's a matter of linguistics. I wouldn't look for definitions of English words in a German dictionary. So I quite naturally don't expect to find every Qevs word in a Rn Mdw lexicon.
To go from Qevs to Kesh to Kush is phonetically simple enough. But it seems very imperialistic to assume the people of Kush needed people downriver to supply them with a name.
It does appear there were significant language differences between Kush (Khartoum to near Edfu) and Egypt (Biga to the Mediterranean) which is why Meroitic inscriptions largely await translation (Dr Winter's work excepted).
Hansberry used Budge's translation of the Nastesen stele to arrive at Kenset and Alu. He also used many primary documents. There's no need to besmirch Hansberry as chasing white ghosts while at the same time actually relying on Budge (a white man) yourself.
It seems much more within the confines of "white historical dogma" to prefer "the white man's" purely anecdotal "sister of Cambyses" origin for Meroe when the people there at the place themselves left Merheu on record. What, they waited for the Persians to come around and name their city for them? Now that's really chasing a white ghost instead of acknowleding the firsthand research revelation from a black scholar. But then so many just won't believe it until "Simon says". It's the old doctor vs coloured doctor mentality, you know, a coloured doctor isn't a real doctor. So Hansberry's research isn't real research, its some old off the mark inferior coloured research.
I strongly suggest purchasing and reading Hansberry's Africa and Africans on indigenous Kush designations before speculatively criticising it and accusing him of being an unwitting "dupe of the white man." Keita isn't the only trustworthy black scholar just because "Simon says" he is.
Like it or not there was a major fork in the previously unified Nile Valley cultural complex that commenced with the development of distinct TaWy and TaSeti polities.Recognizing this in no way stresses the importance of either one over the other. And I've written on the continued interaction between the two. Two brothers from the same mother and father are not one and the same individual no matter how close they are, not even if they're twins. Time to learn up some on brother Kush independent of brother Egypt.
The name the people of Qevs had for themselves entered the Rn Mdw lexicon. Languages are constantly infused with loan words which then take on variations and even new meanings. This is usually revealed by the lack of a native root word having the radicals of the infusion.
I like your thinking on this subject,good post.
note-kush as a empire went even further south beyond khartoum,how far south?i guess we may never really know but the answer might come soon enough.
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quote: AlTakruri wrote: To go from Qevs to Kesh to Kush is phonetically simple enough. But it seems very imperialistic to assume the people of Kush needed people downriver to supply them with a name.
a) The words Kash (Kush); Ekushi (Kush); etc are phonetically related but we know that they are indeed related because we know what the words all mean.
b) The citizens of Rakoti/Sobti went to sleep one night and woke up the next morning to find out that they were now Alexandrians!
--The Oromo became the Galla
--The Kemetians became the Egyptians; an entire country named for a city('s) (temple)
quote: Hansberry used Budge's translation of the Nastesen stele to arrive at Kenset and Alu. He also used many primary documents. There's no need to besmirch Hansberry as chasing white ghosts while at the same time actually relying on Budge (a white man) yourself.
You mistook criticism for besmirch. There is nothing wrong with the structure of Hansberry's work; I was critiquing the details...
quote: It seems much more within the confines of "white historical dogma" to prefer "the white man's" purely anecdotal "sister of Cambyses" origin for Meroe when the people there at the place themselves left Merheu on record. What, they waited for the Persians to come around and name their city for them? Now that's really chasing a white ghost instead of acknowleding the firsthand research revelation from a black scholar. But then so many just won't believe it until "Simon says". It's the old doctor vs coloured doctor mentality, you know, a coloured doctor isn't a real doctor. So Hansberry's research isn't real research, its some old off the mark inferior coloured research.
Entirely mistaken: --It was Diop, in his "The African Origin of Civilization" who remarked in his notes that the word "Meroe" did not seem to be of Negro-African linguistic origin.
--Cambyses did conquer "Meroe." (it would then be prudent to seek to find if he indeed had a sister) (It's a tough one; I've been looking for some time now))
Flavius Josephus: "SABA, which was a royal city of Ethiopia, which Cambyses afterward named MEROE, after the name of his own sister."
--There is a city in the Sudan which is called Merowe, which is not the same as this "Meroe"; it's farther north down-river...
--According to biblical accounts and the Mdu Ntr; this place identified as "Meroe" was originally called Seba/Saba...
According to the first book of Moses; the sons (or nations) of Cush (Sudan) are named Saba, Sabtecha, Sheba, Dedan, etc... This document also asserts that the first imperialist on earth was Nimrod of Cush, whose empire consisted of cities in Shinar(in Sudan). Considering this, then the name "Saba" was a self-given and original one of and by the Cushites. The etymology of the word (Saba)would theoretically then be from there where it would later enter other languages (a guess on my part).
quote: I strongly suggest purchasing and reading Hansberry's Africa and Africans on indigenous Kush designations before speculatively criticising it and accusing him of being an unwitting "dupe of the white man." Keita isn't the only trustworthy black scholar just because "Simon says" he is.
I have read the works of professor Hansberry, George James, J.A. Rogers, Richard Wright, W.E.B. Dubois, Marcus Garvey, in fact all the Founding Fathers of African history; I recommend that everyone who participates in this forum should do so as well. (In fact, I routinely, over time, re-read these authors.)
It is because of the works of these founders that we were then given the contributions by Continental Africans, who will then bear a new generation of both Diaspora and Continental African historians that will make even the works of Diop, Obenga, et al, seem quaint by comparison.
All of the works of the Founders are built upon a solid foundation; upon a fundamental truth, but as Diop said, it's the details that we have to critize (ie, methodology, etc)...
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posted
OK. But I still stand with Hansberry's Merheu which is on a Keshli inscription naming Meroe (not Merowe) over Josephus' anecdote. And Cambyses never conquered Meroe. Nastesen left on record that he beat "Kembasuden" and took all his ships while the invading army was decimated in the desert. "Dunjee" one of the Founding Mothers of African history wrote about that. Other than these points I find nothing to basically disagree with in your above post.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK. But I still stand with Hansberry's Merheu which is on a Keshli inscription naming Meroe (not Merowe) over Josephus' anecdote. And Cambyses never conquered Meroe. Nastesen left on record that he beat "Kembasuden" and took all his ships while the invading army was decimated in the desert. "Dunjee" one of the Founding Mothers of African history wrote about that. Other than these points I find nothing to basically disagree with in your above post.
one correction-nastesen was really fighting a egyptian prince of nubian origin in egypt during the 4th cen. b.c. so egypt or most of it was free until the greeks conqured egypt. cambyses was earlier in the 6th cen b.c.,he invaded nubia but failed to conqure it,persia lost that war,so you are right persia never conqured meroe.
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It is because of the works of these founders that we were then given the contributions by Continental Africans, who will then bear a new generation of both Diaspora and Continental African historians that will make even the works of Diop, Obenga, et al, seem quaint by comparison.
All of the works of the Founders are built upon a solid foundation; upon a fundamental truth, but as Diop said, it's the details that we have to critize (ie, methodology, etc)... ________________________________________________________________
Great post, I agree completely.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Thanks for the precision Kenndo. I see those who equated KMBSWDN with Cambyses were grasping. The inscription itself clarify's KMBSWDN's nationality and nothing denoting Persian is implied.
Herodotus is the historian nearest in time to the event and he traveled as far south as Elephantine. He wrote of Cambyses' mad attempt and failure. The "Macrobian Ethiop" king's reply to Cambyses "Fish Eater" spies is one of the most stirring challenges I ever read and still impresses as much now as it did in my childhood:
quote: "The king of the Persians sent you not with these gifts because he much desired to become my sworn friend; nor is the account which you give of yourselves true, for you are come to search out my kingdom.
Also your king is not a just man; for were he so, he would not have coveted a land which is not his own, nor brought slavery on a people who never did him any wrong.
Bear him this bow, and say: 'The king of the Ethiops thus advises the king of the Persians; when the Persians can pull a bow of this strength thus easily, then let him come with an army of superior strength against the long-lived Ethiopians. Till then, let him thank the gods that they have not put it into the heart of the sons of the Ethiops to covet countries which do not belong to them.' "
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK. But I still stand with Hansberry's Merheu which is on a Keshli inscription naming Meroe (not Merowe) over Josephus' anecdote. And Cambyses never conquered Meroe. Nastesen left on record that he beat "Kembasuden" and took all his ships while the invading army was decimated in the desert. "Dunjee" one of the Founding Mothers of African history wrote about that. Other than these points I find nothing to basically disagree with in your above post.
one correction-nastesen was really fighting a egyptian prince of nubian origin in egypt during the 4th cen. b.c. so egypt or most of it was free until the greeks conqured egypt. cambyses was earlier in the 6th cen b.c.,he invaded nubia but failed to conqure it,persia lost that war,so you are right persia never conqured meroe.
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quote: Meroe: ancient capital of Kush, located in Sudan. Meroe was originally called Sheba. It was renamed by Cambyses after his sister Meroe. Cambyses was a Persian king who claimed the right to be pharaoh of Egypt and Kush, probably on account of the fact that his mother was an African princess.
Here are similar passages regarding Cambyses' campaign agains the long-lived Ethiopians; Note the confusion on the usages of Nubian; Kushite; Ethiopian...
quote: Attempts to conquer south and west of Egypt From Egypt Cambyses attempted the conquest of Kush, i.e. the kingdoms of Napata and Meroe, located in the modern Sudan. But his army was not able to cross the deserts and after heavy losses he was forced to return. In an inscription from Napata (in the Berlin museum) the Nubian king Nastesen relates that he had defeated the troops of "Kembasuden", i.e. Cambyses, and taken all his ships (H. Schafer, Die Aethiopische Königsinschrift des Berliner Museums, 1901). Another expedition against the Siwa Oasis failed likewise, and the plan of attacking Carthage was frustrated by the refusal of the Phoenicians to operate against their kindred.
quote: From Egypt Cambyses attempted the conquest of Ethiopia (Cush), i.e. the kingdom of Napata and Meroe, the modern Nubia. But his army was not able to cross the deserts; after heavy losses he was forced to return. In an inscription from Napata (in the Berlin museum) the Ethiopian king Nastesen relates that he had beaten the troops of Kembasuden, i.e. Cambyses, and taken all his ships (H. Schafer, Die Aethiopische Konigsinschrift des Berliner Museums, 1901). Another expedi-. tion against the great oasis failed likewise, and the plan of attacking Carthage was frustrated by the refusal of the Phoenicians to operate against their kindred.
A Biblical take http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/index.html#TableofContent%20-%20V1 Josephus attests that Saba was an ancient metropolis of the kingdom of Meroe, in the very fertile region between the Nile and Astaboras (or Bahr-el-aswad); and that it ultimately received the name of Meroe after a sister of Cambyses King of Persia, although Meroe seems rather to be a word of Ethiopic derivation. The ruins of the ancient Meroe lie four miles to the north-east of Shendy, in Nubia.
Excert from Utopian themes in Three Greek Romances.
quote: More obviously utopian is Meroe itself, associated with Herodotus' ideal Ethiopians who repelled Persian aggression. Meroe's government, ruled by a priest-king and an advisory council of philosopher/saints, the Gymnosophists, which pursues, in the worship of the Sun and Moon, a celestial harmony, shows parallels with later philosophical utopias like Campanella's City of the Sun, as well as the solar-oriented theologies of later antiquity.
A couple of questions to start with... --If Cambyses did not conquer Saba, how was he able to change its name to Meroe - if he did? --Why was Cambyses' army unable to reach these kingdoms, but the armies of Kemet could? They were almost always in constant conflict with the Wawat ("rebels"), for example...
(This is off topic, I know, but relevant. The topic, of course, is the etymology of "Kush")
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posted
Primary sources nearest in time to Cambyses relate that he failed to conquer Kush stating that his army was ill prepared, underprovisioned, and decimated in the desert before even beginning the approach to Qerma less lone points much more further so far south upriver as the 5th cataract.
Please peruse primary resources (or their translations) not later anecdotal materials.
Which Persian annal records the name of any of his sisters as Meroe? All such notices are late Roman era anecdotes.
Rather than take nonKeshli authors at their anecdotal word I prefer Kesht monumental inscriptions and their usage of Mehreu. Why would they perpetuate the memory of a supposed defeat by continued use of a projected conquerers nomeclature in preference to their own indigenous namings?
There's no reason for free and independent Keshli monarchs to employ a foreigner's designation for one of their own cities. Only pets and slaves accept the name their masters give them.
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Cambyses (or Cambese) is the Greek version of the name of several monarchs of Achaemenid line of ancient Persia . The same name appears as Kambujiya (or perhaps Kambaujiya or Kamboujiya) in old Persian, as Kamboja in the Indian epic Mahabharata, as C-n-b-n-z-y in Aramaic, Kambuzia in Assyrian, Kambythet in Egyptian, Kam-bu-zi-ia in Akkadian, Kan-bu-zi-ia in Elamite, and Kanpuziya in Susian language. It appears to have been a very popular name among ancient Iranians .
Careful review of Old Persian inscriptions and classical writings reveals at least three Cambyses in the dynastic line of Achaemenids.
Cambyses I (Kambujiya I) was an earlier member of the Achaemenid line (7th C BCE). He was probably the son and successor of Teispes of Anshan, who himself was the successor of Achaemenes, the founder of the dynasty. (Herod., VII.II)
Cambyses II (Kambujiya II) was a son of Cyrus I, and ruled Anshan from 600 to 559 BCE. He was a Persian king of good family, to whom king Astyages of Media, had married his daughter Mandane. The issue of this union was Cyrus II (Herod., I, 46, 107).
Cambyses III (Kambujiya III) was son and successor of Cyrus II (or Cyrus the Great) and had ruled Persia from 530 to 522 BCE. He is famous for his conquest of Egypt, and the havoc he wrought upon that country.
Noted scholars like Dr. C. Lassen, Dr. S. Levi, Dr. E. Kuhn, Dr. J. Charpentier, Dr H. W. Bailey, Dr. M. Witzel, and numerous others have linked the royal name Kambujiya or Kambaujiya of the Achaemenid line with the ethnic name Kamboja of the ancient Sanskrit/Pali texts and of king Ashoka's Rock Edicts. Numerous ancient sources attest that the land of Kambojas was center of Iranian civilization which is also evident from the Mazdean religious customs of the ancient Kambojas as also from the Avestan language they spoke. The Kambojas, in turn, seem to have given their name to the modern nation of Cambodia.
Next look at this :
Himyar was a state in ancient South Arabia dating from 110 BCE. It conquered neighbouring Saba in 25 BCE , Qataban in 50 CE and Hadramaut 100 CE. Its political fortunes relative to Saba changed frequently until it achieved power around 280 CE.
Looks like Josephus might have confused some stuff that's all.
posted
Let's pick up with events after Cambyses' Fish-Eater spies were given the challenge from the Macrobian king for Cambyses to go on and assemble an army and bring it on.
quote: From Herodotus' Histories
[3.25.1] Having seen everything, the spies departed again. When they reported all this, Cambyses was angry, and marched at once against the Ethiopians, neither giving directions for any provision of food nor considering that he was about to lead his army to the ends of the earth; [3.25.2] being not in his right mind but mad, however, he marched at once on hearing from the Fish-eaters, ordering the Greeks who were with him to await him where they were, and taking with him all his land army. [3.25.3] When he came in his march to Thebes, he detached about fifty thousand men from his army, and directed them to enslave the Ammonians and burn the oracle of Zeus; and he himself went on towards Ethiopia with the rest of his host. [3.25.4] But before his army had accomplished the fifth part of their journey they had come to an end of all there was in the way of provision, and after the food was gone, they ate the beasts of burden until there was none of these left either. [3.25.5] Now had Cambyses, when he perceived this, changed his mind and led his army back again, he would have been a wise man at last after his first fault; but as it was, he went ever forward, taking account of nothing. [3.25.6] While his soldiers could get anything from the earth, they kept themselves alive by eating grass; but when they came to the sandy desert, some did a terrible thing, taking by lot one man out of ten and eating him. [3.25.7] Hearing this, Cambyses feared their becoming cannibals, and so gave up his expedition against the Ethiopians and marched back to Thebes, with the loss of many of his army; from Thebes he came down to Memphis, and sent the Greeks to sail away.
[3.26.1] So fared the expedition against Ethiopia.
We should be as critical of Josephus who wrote some 600 years after the event as we would be of Hansberry who bases himself on Keshli inscriptions unlike Josephus' account designed for his Roman patron which relied on Strabo just 90 years earlier.
Strabo misreported Diodorus, 40 years before him, who passed on an anecdote that Meroe was named after Cambyses mother. Yet, Diodorus put little faith in that story because he also wrote:
quote: Cambyses, for instance, they say, who made war upon [the Ethiopians] with a great force, both lost all his army and was himself exposed to the greatest peril;
code:
c. 525 BCE Cambyses c. 450 BCE Herodotus ~ 75 years after Cambyses' time c. 56 BCE Diodorus ~470 years after Cambyses' time c. 15 BCE Strabo ~510 years after Cambyses' time c. 80 CE Josephus ~605 years after Cambyses' time
I trust these critical details have cleared up the misconception of foreign origins for the name of a city deep upriver at the Nile's 5th cataract highly inaccessible to Iranian armies or even all but the most persistent of foreign travelers.
Meroitic extracontinental trade was conducted by Keshli merchants exporting merchandise to entrepots more convenient for foreigners, either taking it themselves downriver to Kenset or Athiye ("Nubia') or to those (likely the traders in the kingdom of Da’amat) who could then transport the goods to the Red Sea ports and on to Arabian Sea -- and its gulfs -- destinations.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Cambyses (or Cambese) is the Greek version of the name of several monarchs of Achaemenid line of ancient Persia . The same name appears as Kambujiya (or perhaps Kambaujiya or Kamboujiya) in old Persian, as Kamboja in the Indian epic Mahabharata, as C-n-b-n-z-y in Aramaic, Kambuzia in Assyrian, Kambythet in Egyptian, Kam-bu-zi-ia in Akkadian, Kan-bu-zi-ia in Elamite, and Kanpuziya in Susian language. It appears to have been a very popular name among ancient Iranians . _____________________________________________________________________
It is interesting to note that except for the beards worn by the Achaemenids (Hakhâmanišiya): royal dynasty of ancient Persia, named after its legendary founder Achaemenes (Hakhâmaniš), the Achamenids and Nubias had similar hair styles.
Darius
Nubian from Persopolis
Nubian from Egyptian Relief
Modern Nubian
Cyrus the Greart Kourosh
Interesting .......
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Like Gary Bartz said back in 1975: "The Shadow Do!" _____ _____
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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THE the last picture of the nubians-those are helmets you could see it here it this picture more closely in the picture that says warrior. it looks like the warrior is from the napatan period,since alot of troops(not all) of early kush did not wear armour and shirts like the later napatan,meroitic and periods.certain troops early of napata did have the armour and shirts.
later periods troops had chainmail armour like the late romans had but it was different of course or had thier own style,but they could have started wearing chainmail in the late kush period but i am not sure. I need to find some books on african and early african armour and helmets. note-in post meroe in lower nubia there is a picture of a king wearing roman like nubian armour that was nubianized.his name i think was silko and i think many if not all in lower nubia after meroe had it until the upper nubian kingdom of markuria conquered them in medieval times. another christain kingdom was formed for a short time later in the medieval period.
picture of a early kushite warrior below.
i saw a larger picture of the book and it looks same but the helmets looks brighter maybe because he is standing in the sun. The book has not come in yet,but i will get a better look at the pictures when i get it. I am also getting the ancient egyptians as well.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: hotep2u quote: ______________________________________________________________
Cambyses (or Cambese) is the Greek version of the name of several monarchs of Achaemenid line of ancient Persia . The same name appears as Kambujiya (or perhaps Kambaujiya or Kamboujiya) in old Persian, as Kamboja in the Indian epic Mahabharata, as C-n-b-n-z-y in Aramaic, Kambuzia in Assyrian, Kambythet in Egyptian, Kam-bu-zi-ia in Akkadian, Kan-bu-zi-ia in Elamite, and Kanpuziya in Susian language. It appears to have been a very popular name among ancient Iranians . _____________________________________________________________________
It is interesting to note that except for the beards worn by the Achaemenids (Hakhâmanišiya): royal dynasty of ancient Persia, named after its legendary founder Achaemenes (Hakhâmaniš), the Achamenids and Nubias had similar hair styles.
Darius
Nubian from Persopolis
Nubian from Egyptian Relief
Modern Nubian
Cyrus the Greart Kourosh
Interesting .......
What I see is two attempts to represent curly hair.
But the Persians appear to have extremely heavy beards [real or fake?], generally Nile Valley Africans do not.
Of course there are Persians with no beards and Africans with heavy beards - but still, that iconography does not appear particularly 'alike', to me.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I think Dr Winters was saying the 'do's were similar not identical. The Persian 'du is elaborate in design. Their natural hair was loosely wavy, as you can see at the edge of the king's crown, then the ends were tightly curled. All in all it produces the effect of wooly hair like the curly Afro some Ladinos, Iranians, and Arabs used to wear back in the 70's. You know, the "Jewfro"
And, yes, when you get down to detail it's as you said "that iconography does not appear particularly 'alike'."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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The first two PICTURES is showing hair while the last picture are really helmets that almost seem to look like hair. early kush warriors had wigs,helmets like those above and other head gear. later periods were diverse too,but LATER warriors did not wear wigs.i seen recreations of some of these pictures and other pictures before by artists. i could be wrong but the last picture looks so much like that picture of the early kushite warriors helmet,but it is known any way the kushite troops had helmets.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Kenndo is right; the image of a "Nubian" labeled "Nubian from Persopolis" appears to show what is the natural hair of the individual, while the image labeled "Nubian from Egyptian Relief" shows individuals wearing on their heads, what appears to be wigs.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Kenndo is right; the image of a "Nubian" labeled "Nubian from Persopolis" appears to show what is the natural hair of the individual, while the image labeled "Nubian from Egyptian Relief" shows individuals wearing on their heads, what appears to be wigs.
right or helmets,i think most likely they are helmets. take a look at the nubian warrior in the book above and than take a look at the other nubian troops.the helmet in the cover of the book has almost the same look here is a larger picture inside the link.click inside i will get the book soon and i will a get better look.
the reason i say they are helmets because every wig i have seen of these early nile valley cultures you could see the ears,while on tut and his wife you see him siting on his chair and he has a helmet crown and it covers the ears just like the warrior in front of the book and the pictures of the kushite warriors above too and it looks almost like those pictures .the only thing is that tut's helmet like crown is blue.
but i will ask a nubian scholar(send a email) this week and get a answer later to make sure. but one thing is for sure nubians had helmets as well. Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Isn't it great and remarkable that the above image and all of the rest of the images of Tutankhamen (and everyone else in Ancient Egypt) resemble so accurately the one made by the National Geographic Society and Hawass!! What a remarkable reproduction of a North African Caucasoid! I mean, there's no way these images look Nuuubian. Ahhh, the triumph of modern science...
PS: On a serious note, this topic is supposed to be about "The Etymology of 'Kush'"; have this topic been exhausted? Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Clyde and alTakruri, I'm currently working on a project to correct the nonsense of Kushites, Nubians, Ethiopians, being a part of the Persian Empire. Though all sources translate the Persian word as "Kušâya" the come back with Kushites, Nubians, Ethiopians: all of which are wrong. As detailed above, Persia never conquered below Egypt.
Clearly the The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago knows that too. And just as clearly, they, like all Albino institutions, are trying fix it so that in the minds of the public, Blacks are only found in Africa.
Any thoughts on Kush, and what the Persian word "Kus" might mean?
I know that delegation is Asian (because of the Antelope type), possibly somewhere in India, but I'm stuck there.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Interpreting the name Kus(h), is very difficult. In Hebrew mythology Kush was the name for the first son of Ham. It appears that the term Kush was used as a place name in Africa and Eurasia. It appears to support Homer’s statement that there was a Kush in Africa and a Kush in Asia, that was founded by the same ethnic group.
This is the reason behind the presence of the K s h element in many place names in Asia e.g., Kashgar, HinduKush, and Kosh. The HinduKush in Harappan times had lapis lazuli deposits.
The Elamites called themselves:Khatan. The capital city of the Elamites Susa ,was called: Khuz by the Indo European speakers, and Kussi by the Elamites. The Chinese called the Elamites Kashti. The Armenians called the eastern Parthia: Kushana.
The major Kushite group from Mesopotamia to northern India were the Kassites. The Kassites, who occupied the central Zagros were called Kashshu. This name agrees with Kaska, the name of the Hattians. P.N. Chopra,in The History of South India, noted that the Kassite language bears unmistakable affinity to the Dravidian group of languages.
Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place names. (Singer 1981) Singer (1981) has suggested that the Kaska, are remnants of the indigenous Hattian population which was forced northward by the Hittites. But at least as late as 1800 BC, Anatolia was basically settled by Hattians. (Haas 1977)
Civilization (Handbook of Oriental Studies, New York:Brill,1997) out lines the history of the term Kush in relation to the Kushites on pages 2-3. Torok points out that the name for the first ruler of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, Kashta, probably meant "the Kushite". He also noted that Kush, also appears as the ancestral kingdom of Piya in his Sandstone Stela and King Arqamani in the Second Century BC received the mortuary Horus name "The Kushite whose-coming-into-being -is divine".
In the Meroitic text the Meroites refer to themselves as Qes(h)( see: Torok, p.2-3: and J.Leclant:Recherches sur la toponymie meroitique, Tran. Centre de Recherche sur le Porche-Orient 4, (1975), p.105)in the Hamadab and Tanyidamani Stelas.The textual evidence make it obvious that the people of Meroe, and earlier rulers of Egypt from the same region, called themselves Kushites.
The Egyptians and Hebrews called the Meroites Kushites because it was the name they called themselves. This is supported by the Meroitic text.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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