1. Comments about the Muslim population (90%) being Arab settlers from the Arabian peninsula, while the remaining 10% is made up of Copts, referred to as the “true” Egyptian descendants of Ancient Egypt.

   As for the true non-Egyptian origins of Copts, here is the link the explains it: http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/copts.html

2. Comments about the Muslim population being of a mixed blood, of Ancient Egyptian and Arabs who invaded Egypt at about 640 A.D. This of course implies that Ancient Egyptian blood no longer exists.
   

Two developments that foreign invasion created in the Egyptian society are, what is known as the Baladi population group, and what is known as the Afrangi group. Now, the Baladi means the “natives”, and Baladi people refer to a small layer of Egyptians they see as mainly of foreign origin, the Afrangi. The Baladi are the “silent” majority, while the Afrangi are the “loud” minority. The Afrangi comparatively enjoy higher social status than the silent majority Baladi, often in the form of high government positions, academic institutions, journalists and self-proclaimed intellectuals. The Afrangi played no minor role in molding the identity of contemporary Egypt, at least in the eyes of outsiders. Needless to say that, with the high status they enjoy, they are the culprits of molding the contemporary Egyptian geo-political identity . They compromised their Egyptian heritage only to gain favoritism from foreign invaders, and thereby enjoy higher social status. In doing so, the Afrangi looked upon the rest of Egyptian population with contempt. And they continued to do so, after the departure of foreign invaders.

But now we hear stories of how Egyptians willingly accepted foreign religions such as Christianity, and later on Islam. We also hear baseless assertions that, along with the development, the indigenous traditions have died. Reality is that old traditions continued to be practiced by the Baladi, under a thin veil of Islam, just to survive Arab invaders and satellite Egyptian Afrangi.

What about contemporary Egyptians knowing little about the Kemetian heritage?

We are often told that Egyptians know little about their heritage. But truth is that, through their Afrangi apostles, Mulsim historians managed to gain monopoly over history writing and as Egyptian Author Moustafa Gadalla put it:

“Because of the ironclad control of Islam over history writing since 641 CE, Moslem historians publicize that Egyptians forgot their identity and became a part of a big happy family called "Arabs". No one can dare oppose the line that Islam saved Egypt from previous Gahe-Liya (ignorance era). As a result, we witness an intellectual state of terrorism that conceals realities into a cloud of dust by the dominating Afrangi Egyptians... To grow up in Egypt, one is taught to accept the Koran as the "Book from God". Both the Koran and the Bible condemned ancient Egyptians' beliefs and the Pharaohs. No historical fact can contradict the Koran. The whole world's knowledge of Ancient Egypt is largely based on the biblical (koranic as well) accounts of interaction between the Hebrews and Egypt. And as our "view" is mostly from these sources, it is largely negative…A conflict between historical facts and religious convictions is very dangerous indeed. Because of such religious fear and intimidation, most fellow Egyptians do not appreciate their own ancient history, and as a result, they suffer from a self-imposed identity crisis. It is no wonder that the Ancient Egyptian history is studied almost exclusively by non-Egyptians. ”

Mr. Gadalla goes on to cite the Arabic news report by "Al-Ahram" (the largest newspaper in Egypt), as further evidence of the “fear” and “intimidation” technique to what amounts to cultural cleansing:

“The police department in Cairo continued its efforts to find the outlaws and those who practiced magic, charlatanism, etc, when they arrested a "charlatan" (61 years old) who performs zars (exorcism, etc) at her apartment in El Waylee, assisted by another 8 persons. The article goes on to say that the lady, whose name is Sadeeka Hasan Mohammed Gad, convinced her victims, especially young women, of her ability to solve their marital and health problems. There were three of these young women present at dawn when the suspects were arrested.
This police operation was in accordance with directives from the First Lieutenant to the Interior (Police) Ministry, who ordered the intensification of finding people who practice magic, …etc.”

“The above is a sample of the activities used to impose Islam on the people of Egypt, and suppress the indigenous beliefs of the Egyptians. In a democracy, other people's views and actions don't need to make sense to the thugs of the Egyptian Interior (Police) Ministry…Because of religious fear and intimidation, the Baladi (silent majority) Egyptians learned to camouflage their ancient traditions under an Islamic exterior. This is described in their common saying, "playing with an egg (traditions) and a stone (Islamic authority)", so as not to break the fragile egg with the [tyranny] of the stone.”

Sources: Author Moustafa Gadalla; Moustafa Gadalla is an Egyptian-American independent Egyptologist, who was born in Cairo, Egypt in 1944. He holds a Bachelor of Science degree in civil engineering from Cairo University. Gadalla is the author of eleven internationally acclaimed books about the various aspects of the Ancient Egyptian history and civilization and its influences worldwide. He is the chairman of the Tehuti Research Foundation—an international, U.S.-based, non-profit organization, dedicated to Ancient Egyptian studies. From his early childhood, Gadalla pursued his Ancient Egyptian roots with passion, through continuous study and research. Since 1990, he has dedicated and concentrated all his time to researching and writing

With regards to the monuments:
Let us not forget cultural vandalism by Copts in ancient times, followed by Muslim invaders, and then the looting and defacements by European adventurers, treasure hunters, and archeologists in the 18th and 19th. In those days, most of the discoveries weren’t adequately documented as they are today in the form of “original” onsite photographs and detailed field reports. And so you have an institution headed by Dr. Hawass to reside over such issues!

------------------
Logic

Maybe he was wrong but I still trust Volneys assessment of Coptic
origins over Gadallas illogic that

1. Hellenes imposed Greek on Egyptians
2. Egyptian Christians spoke Greek
3. Copts are the Egyptian Christians
4. Copts are Hellenes

when

5. Copts speak Egyptic

Premises 1, 2, & 3 do not lead to conclusion 4.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I find a lot of Gadallas writing hard to accept about Greek
origins for the Copts. Yes, there is a heavy even predominant Greek
element about the Copts, yet, if as Gadalla says the Greeks imposed
their language, why is it that Coptic is the only living language of
the Egyptian language family. Theophile Obenga recognizes that.

Maybe he was wrong but I still trust Volneys assessment of Coptic
origins over Gadallas illogic that

1. Hellenes imposed Greek on Egyptians
2. Egyptian Christians spoke Greek
3. Copts are the Egyptian Christians
4. Copts are Hellenes

when

5. Copts speak Egyptic

Premises 1, 2, & 3 do not lead to conclusion 4.

Statement 5 contradicts premise 2. All Egyptian Christians evidently
did not speak Greek exclusive of Egyptic. Though heavily miscegenated,
their holding onto Egyptic suggests Copts are descendents of AEs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
I agree that Gadalla's take on the Copts isn't accurate, but I guess the point he was trying to make, was that the Copts who claim to be the "purist" descendants of Ancient Egyptians, have enough Greek admixture to invalidate that claim. Not much of an argument, but this was probably the intended point of his stance on the Copts. That aside, what do you make of his assessment of contemporary Egyptian social class?

---

I dont know but its obvious that those assimilated to and/or
miscegentaed with the Arabian invaders are running the show as
is true for everywhere in Africa west of Misr and on to Maroc and
south of there down to the Maur country. Dare I add Sudan?

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I dont know but its obvious that those assimilated to and/or miscegentaed with the Arabian invaders are running the show as is true for everywhere in Africa west of Misr and on to Maroc and south of there down to the Maur country. Dare I add Sudan?

---

Which brings us to the question of whether there is such a thing as minority "Arab" ruling elite in Egypt.

quote:

---

rasol:
Islam and Christianity use different methods of religous conquest. Christianity does not have a 'single language' of the faith as Islam does.

---

That is what Arabization is all about, using religion as a leverage. This is a phenomenon Gadalla was referring to, in terms of how the minority ruling elite or post colonial bourgeois have been able to get some leverage in consolidating power in contemporary Egypt. Most of these elites would identify themselves as primarily Egyptians no doubt, but won't hesistate to intimately emphasize their "Arab" nationalism.

quote:

---

rasol:
The Copts were in some ways more notorious than the Arabs in terms of single minded destruction of what they regarded as a pagan African culture. (ethnically the copts are diverse, although their are on average more Eurasian elements than African)

---

...which must have had some influence on Gadalla's views on Copts. The catchword here is "relativism". There is certainly the viewpoint that Fellahins, particularly in upper Egypt, have the least foreign admixture and therefore the more "pure" descendants of Ancient Egypt founders.

quote:

---

I dont know but its obvious that those assimilated to and/or
miscegentaed with the Arabian invaders are running the show as
is true for everywhere in Africa west of Misr and on to Maroc and
south of there down to the Maur country. Dare I add Sudan?

---

The problem is Copts will say they were segregated from the Arabian population by Christianity,and that Egyptian Muslims were assimlated with Arab invaders.

The problem with this contention is that even before Arabs came into Egypt the populations of Egypt began to intermarry with Greeks. This is well documented by most historians that unions between these two groups usually took Egyptian names as opposed to Greo-Roman names.

Most of the earlier converts to Christianity in Egypt were either Jews or Greeks. Christianity did not begin to spread into Upper Egypt untill a much later time period,and it was spread by force.

The Coptic saints like St. Shenute and others went around destoying the ancient Egyptian temples and even killed the priests who pratic ed the indigenous religion. My question is why would indigenous Egyptians destoy their own forefathers creation? Makes no sense to me.

Contrary to popular historians, not everybody in Egypt adopted Christianity,and there were enclaves of non-Christian populations even when the Arabs invaded them. What populations that were forced into Christianity held tightly on to their old religion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The problem is Copts will say they were segregated from the Arabian population by Christianity,and that Egyptian Muslims were assimlated with Arab invaders.

The problem with this contention is that even before Arabs came into Egypt the populations of Egypt began to intermarry with Greeks. This is well documented by most historians that unions between these two groups usually took Egyptian names as opposed to Greo-Roman names.

The Coptic saints like St. Shenute and others went around destoying the ancient Egyptian temples and even killed the priests who pratic ed the indigenous religion. My question is why would indigenous Egyptians destoy their own forefathers creation? Makes no sense to me.

---

I agree. The Copts had heavily mixed with Greeks that made them by and large Graeco-Egyptian. Add to that a little bit of Roman blood and some Syrian admixture and you will get your typical modern-day Cairene Copt. It's obvious from their physical appearance that the typical Copts resemble Greeks far more than they do ancient Egyptians. Yes, it's probable that they did not mix with the invading Arab settlers and subsequent Arab immigrants; but that does not mean that they are pure descendants of the pharoahs. That's a big fat lie.

Look at Brutus Ghali. He could easily pass for a Greek. In fact, he looks European! But can he easily pass for an ancient Egyptian, judging from ancient Egyptian artwork? I don't think so.

It's absurd that some people think the Copts are the purest Egyptians because they didn't intermarry with Arabs, however it's equally absurd to say that they are Greeks. Without a doubt, the early Christian community in Egypt was diverse and many Copts may be descended from Greek, Syrian, and Roman immigrants. However, for a brief period, Egypt's population had a Coptic majority and Coptic was widely spoken in Egypt until the 15th century.

Unlike other countries in the Arab/Islamic world, Egyptian Copts and Muslims share many cultural and linguistic similarities. There are Coptic fellahin in parts of Egypt as well...

Another Greco-Roman Copt?

quote:

---

Originally posted by neo*geo:

It's absurd that some people think the Copts are the purest Egyptians because they didn't intermarry with Arabs, however it's equally absurd to say that they are Greeks. Without a doubt, the early Christian community in Egypt was diverse and many Copts may be descended from Greek, Syrian, and Roman immigrants. However, for a brief period, Egypt's population had a Coptic majority and Coptic was widely spoken in Egypt until the 15th century.

Unlike other countries in the Arab/Islamic world, Egyptian Copts and Muslims share many cultural and linguistic similarities. There are Coptic fellahin in parts of Egypt as well...

[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 23 December 2004).]

---

I don't think anybody said that the Copts were Greek, even though they tend to have Greek admixture and typically resemble Greeks to a large extent.

Nor did anyone say that all Copts conform to one phenotype. That's why I used the qualifier "typical." Please read carefully next time. It's no use beating a dead horse.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The Coptic saints like St. Shenute and others went around destoying the ancient Egyptian temples and even killed the priests who pratic ed the indigenous religion. My question is why would indigenous Egyptians destoy their own forefathers creation? Makes no sense to me.

---

For the same reasons that Atenism overrode the old religion and then
the old religion tried to totally obliterate all evidence of Atenism.

If the Copts' base ethnicity isn't Kmtyw then why did they preserve
Egyptic as a spoken language for 1600 years and retain it as the
liturgical language thereafter?

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

If the Copts' base ethnicity isn't Kmtyw then why did they preserve
Egyptic as a spoken language for 1600 years and retain it as the
liturgical language thereafter?

---

Interesting question, but as Ausar mentioned, I strongly doubt that the original copts in Egypt were ethnic Kmtyw (or kememu, kemmau or whatever). There were frequent indigenous rebellions against the original copts in Egypt, as there was frequent rebellions against Islam. At least as late as the early 1900's, the Fellahin still at least tried to preserve much of their ancient culture, whereas copts wreaked havoc delaring the old religion paganism from day one. If you haven't read The Fellahin of Upper Egypt, you should.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
For the same reasons that Atenism overrode the old religion and then
the old religion tried to totally obliterate all evidence of Atenism.

If the Copts' base ethnicity isn't Kmtyw then why did they preserve
Egyptic as a spoken language for 1600 years and retain it as the
liturgical language thereafter?

---

How about for the same reason the Afrangi compromised their heritage to gain favoritism from a minority ruling group, using religion again as a leverage in the quest for enjoying high social status, while creating conditions that will undermine any development the threatens that prospect? Just replace Islam with Christianity here, and it might make some sense. But in the case of the Copts, as pointed out earlier, this was at a time, when broad sections of Egyptian population spoke Coptic, including the non-Christian sections of the society. The problems of the small Christian elite seems to have come about with the change in the direction of the wind; i.e., new invaders (Arabs) with a new religion, which the invaders insisted on being learnt exclusively in their language (Arabic). Once again, attempts were made to impose a new religion (Islam) on broad sections of the society, only this time with a foreign language as an added leverage for authority. Small sections of the society didn't mind adapting to the new situation and seeked favoritism with these new minority rulers, so as to gain social priviledge. One effective way of gaining favoritism from foreign invaders, is to be complacent about their authority and adopt their "values" and "customs". This can provide some motivation for assisting in vandalism of the pre-existing culture(s). It appears that those who stuck with their Christian heritage in the face of change, also stuck with the indigenous Coptic language. As for the other sections of the society, well, you can probably come to the conclusion about what course they took; it appears that Gadalla has provided his insights on that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Interesting question, but as Ausar mentioned, I strongly doubt that the original copts in Egypt were ethnic Kmtyw (or kememu, kemmau or whatever). There were frequent indigenous rebellions against the original copts in Egypt, as there was frequent rebellions against Islam. At least as late as the early 1900's, the Fellahin still at least tried to preserve much of their ancient culture, whereas copts wreaked havoc delaring the old religion paganism from day one. If you haven't read The Fellahin of Upper Egypt, you should.

But just because copts preserved the old language doesn't mean they're ethnic Kmtyw. If another country invaded and took over the US, African Americans would probably continue to speak English as long as no other language was forced on us, but we are not ethnic Englishmen. And as long as the Bible is written in English, the Black church will probably read from an English Bible as long as possible.

---

Neither of the conquest analogies fit, not the historic one of
Gadalla and not the theoretical one involving Black Americans.

The original Christian Bible was written in
Koine Greek. Were the Copt
ethnic base Greek, and Greek was the lingua franca of that era, for
what reason would they learn, speak, and preserve Egyptic?

quote:

---

Originally posted by kembu:
I don't think anybody said that the Copts were Greek, even though they tend to have Greek admixture and typically resemble Greeks to a large extent.

Nor did anyone say that all Copts conform to one phenotype. That's why I used the qualifier "typical." Please read carefully next time. It's no use beating a dead horse.

---

Quite a few Egyptians are mixed with southern European ancestry but it is my opinion that the Copts are just as diverse as Egyptian Muslims.

quote:

---

alTakruri:
The original Christian Bible was written in
Koine Greek. Were the Copt ethnic base Greek, and Greek was the lingua franca of that era, for what reason would they learn, speak, and preserve Egyptic?

---

quote:

---

Before examining the contradictions circulating in the modern era and resulting from attempts to prove at any price that the Egyptians were Whites, let us note the astonishment of a scholar of good faith, Count Constantin de Volney (1757-1820). After being imbued with all the prejudices we have just mentioned with regard to the Negro, Volney had gone to Egypt between 1783 and 1785, while Negro slavery flourished. He reported as follows on the Egyptian race, the very race that had produced the Pharaohs: the Copts.

{quote} ... all have a bloated face, puffed up eyes, flat nose, thick lips; in a word, the true face of the mulatto. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when I visited the Sphinx, its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing that head, typically Negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where Herodotus says: "As for me, I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black with woolly hair. ..." In other words, the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples. {endquote}

{quote} But returning to Egypt, the lesson she teaches history contains many reflections for philosophy. What a subject for meditation, to see the present barbarism and ignorance of the Copts, descendants of the alliance between the profound genius of the Egyptians and the brilliant mind of the Greeks! Just think that this race of black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, ana even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of peoples who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery and questioned whether black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites! {endquote}

---

Diop quoting
Count Constantin-François Volney
Voyages en Syrie et en Egypte I
Paris: 1787, pp 74-77

A lot has changed since Volneys day yet he remains a firsthand eyewitness
for his time period and travels.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Copt itself is a Greek term. Copt is 1st and foremost a religion. Being a Copt doesn't prove that your ancestry is Kmtyw. How many Copt's even know what Kmtyw means?
And if they did know, how many would embrace the term?

---

Copt is a Greek term derived from AEL and Coptic is an Egyptic
language. AEL and Coptic are the only Egyptic languages known
to linguistics.

As far as Coptic as a religion, all the Orthodox Christian
religions are tied into ethnicity and nationality. Its not
at all like what youre used to in the west.

One could likewise ask how many Black Americans even know what
Kwa means? And if they did know, how many would embrace the term?

Whether ignorant, knowledgeable, accepting or rejecting, Black Americans
are in the majority Kwa descendents. And since km and its variations
survive in the Egyptic language known as Coptic at least the clergy
and lay clergy Copts do know what it means.

quote:

---

find a lot of Gadallas writing hard to accept about Greek
origins for the Copts. Yes, there is a heavy even predominant Greek
element about the Copts, yet, if as Gadalla says the Greeks imposed
their language, why is it that Coptic is the only living language of
the Egyptian language family. Theophile Obenga recognizes that.

Maybe he was wrong but I still trust Volneys assessment of Coptic
origins over Gadallas illogic that

1. Hellenes imposed Greek on Egyptians
2. Egyptian Christians spoke Greek
3. Copts are the Egyptian Christians
4. Copts are Hellenes

when

5. Copts speak Egyptic

Premises 1, 2, & 3 do not lead to conclusion 4.

Statement 5 contradicts premise 2. All Egyptian Christians evidently
did not speak Greek exclusive of Egyptic. Though heavily miscegenated,
their holding onto Egyptic suggests Copts are descendents of AEs.

---

What is your opinion of the following,al takruri?

93.0388
McBRIDE, Daniel R., The Development of Coptic: Late-Pagan Language of Synthesis in Egypt, JSSEA 19 (1989), [1993], 89-111.

Coptic existed as a pagan phenomenon long before its further development in Christianised Egypt. To explain the early stages of this process, a social model is proposed, which is based upon Greek-Egyptian interaction from 650 B.C. to 384 A.D., a period designated here as the Early Coptic Period. Coptic arose out of the needs of a relatively small Graeco-Egyptian social class whose primary concerns were religious. A decisive phase in this development began in 164 B.C., from which date membership in the Egyptian priesthood began to include Greeks. This provided in turn the base for a fusion of Greek and Egyptian philosophical and religious thought. The rise of Coptic is to be associated with Lower Egypt; Demotic became a bastion of the conservative south. W.H.

To this day most of the liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox is in Bohairic which is the most unpure form of the Coptic dialect. The most pure dialect spoken by the rural population probably up to the late 17th century was Sahidic. Sahidic is no longer used in liturgy ,but Boharic is in both Upper and Lower Egyptian churches.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

What is your opinion of the following,al takruri?

93.0388
McBRIDE, Daniel R., The Development of Coptic: Late-Pagan Language of Synthesis in Egypt, JSSEA 19 (1989), [1993], 89-111.

Coptic existed as a pagan phenomenon long before its further development in Christianised Egypt. To explain the early stages of this process, a social model is proposed, which is based upon Greek-Egyptian interaction from 650 B.C. to 384 A.D., a period designated here as the Early Coptic Period. Coptic arose out of the needs of a relatively small Graeco-Egyptian social class whose primary concerns were religious. [b]A decisive phase in this development began in 164 B.C., from which date membership in the Egyptian priesthood began to include Greeks. This provided in turn the base for a fusion of Greek and Egyptian philosophical and religious thought. The rise of Coptic is to be associated with Lower Egypt; Demotic became a bastion of the conservative south. W.H.

To this day most of the liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox is in Bohairic which is the most unpure form of the Coptic dialect. The most pure dialect spoken by the rural population probably up to the late 17th century was Sahidic. Sahidic is no longer used in liturgy ,but Boharic is in both Upper and Lower Egyptian churches.

[/B]

---

Makes logical sense to me. It says

1. Late pagan language
2. Base was Egyptian
3. Greeks were grafted in

Sounds like a repeat of the 2nd part of the Volney quote. It doesnt
at all state that Copts or Coptic is a foreign forced intrusion
like Gadalla wrote in his book as on the webpage Supercar cited.
Instead it clearly shows Coptic origins to be Egyptians who allowed
Greeks to get in on the religion deal. How about that? Manetho was
Graeco Egyptian by parentage. Too bad Coptic didnt come in until a century
or after his death. He could have wrote in an African language
instead of an Indo European one!

Coptic Calendar

All historians have agreed that the Egyptians were the first to calculate time. They divided the year into 12 months, according to their knowledge of the stars. They later discovered the solar year, and became dependent upon it. Each of the 12 months was 30 days long and they added five more days, which they called the small month. Therefore, their year became 365 days long. The final stage of rectifying the calendar, in 238 BC was to add a sixth day to the small month every four years. The beginning of their year was on the first day of the month of Thout, which is the first month of the Coptic year.

The Egyptians named their months after their gods, and chose their names according to the season of the climatic changes for agriculture. They divided the year into 3 main seasons:

The season of the flood of the Nile (Thout to Koiahk)
The season of vegetation (Tobi to Paremoude)
The season of reaping and harvesting (Pachons to Mesori) The small month was a chance for feasts and festivals.

The Coptic year is divided into 13 months. The first 12 are equal in days (30 days each) and that makes for 360 days of the solar cycle. The 13th month is called the small month and is adjusted to complete the solar year; i.e. 5 days in an unleap year and 6 days in a leap year.

. The 13 months of the Church coincide with 4 seasons, each is ~90 days long, these are: inundation, planting, harvest, and sailing. The ancient Egyptians used the calendar to regulate: planting, harvesting, distribution, and flood season. Egypt uses the Coptic Calendar to this day to regulate agriculture, and especially the common farmer knows his seasons based on the Coptic Calendar. Modern agriculture however can be regulated with more scientific dating.

. Here is the names of the Coptic Months: Tut, Babah, Hathor ("awaal el-shihoor" the first three months inundation season. Koiak, Toba, Amsheer (Winter Planting Season). Baramhaat, Baramodah, Bashans (Harvest season), Baonah Abeeb, Misra (summer Season, Sailing Season, Windy season). The small month also call nessi (forgotten days of the year).

. The difference between the Coptic Church Calendar and the Western Church Calendar is in the fact that the Coptic Calendar was synchronized with the Julian Calendar and was not changed to match the Gregorian Church Calendar.

The Coptic months are, in order:

Thout
Named after the god Tegot, Tut or Tuhout, who is the god of wisdom, science, art inventions and divine mysteries for the Egyptians.

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: September 11 to October 10.
Paapi

Named after Yee-pee or Ha-pee, the god of the Nile or of Thebes, who is also the god of vegetation, because in this month the face of the earth becomes green with vegetation.

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: October 11 to November 9.
Hathor

Named after Hator or Hatho, the goddess of love and beauty, because during this month the lands become lush and green.
Gregorian Calendar equivalent: November 10 to December 9.
Koiahk

Named after Ka-Ha-Ka, the god of good, who is the sacred bull Apis.
Gregorian Calendar equivalent: December 10 to January 8.
Tobi

Named after the god Amso or Khem, who is a form of the God Amoun-ru, the god of Thebes in Upper Egypt; he is the god of the growth of nature because much rain falls during this month.

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: January 9 to February 7.
Mechir

Particular to the genius of wind, because the storms and wind occur much during this month. It is the month in which the summer heat begins.
Gregorian Calendar equivalent: February 8 to March 9.
Paremhat

Named after the god Mont, which is the god of war. During this month the temperature is high and thus the Egyptians called it the month of the sun.
Gregorian Calendar equivalent: March 10 to April 8.
Paremoude

Named after Renno, the god of severe wind or death. During this month the season of vegetation ends and the earth becomes dry.

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: April 9 to May 8.
Pachons

Named after Khonso, the god of the moon, on of the Thebic trinity and the son of Amoun-Ru and Mout.

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: May 9 to June 7.
Paoni

Named after Khenti, on the names of Horus or the sun. It means "the god of metals".

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: June 8 to July 7.
Epip

Named after Api-fee or Abib, who is the big serpent which Horus (the sun), the son of Osiris, killed to revenge for his father.

Gregorian Calendar equivalent: July 8 to August 6.
Mesori

Particular to the birth of the sun or what is known as the "summer shift"
Gregorian Calendar equivalent: August 7 to September 5.
Little Month

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Yes, the Coptics have retained the calender system of the ancent Egyptians,but so have the Fellahin and Sai'idi people in rural parts of Upper Egypt.

---

Aren't there fellahin and Sai'idi copts as well?

quote:

---

alTakruri:
Makes logical sense to me. It says

1. Late pagan language
2. Base was Egyptian
3. Greeks were grafted in

Sounds like a repeat of the 2nd part of the Volney quote. It doesnt
at all state that Copts or Coptic is a foreign forced intrusion
like Gadalla wrote in his book as on the webpage Supercar cited.
Instead it clearly shows Coptic origins to be Egyptians who allowed
Greeks to get in on the religion deal. How about that? Manetho was
Graeco Egyptian by parentage. Too bad Coptic didnt come in until a century
or after his death. He could have wrote in an African language
instead of an Indo European one!

---

From what I have read from the posts here so far, it doesn't appear that anyone is questioning the "indigenousness" of Coptic language and origins in Egypt, but rather Copts as being the "purist" descendants of Ancient Egyptians, given the cultural vandalism encouraged by the various Coptic Christian priests and those within their circles, and not to mention the Indo-European and Eurasian admixtures that find expression in the diverse appearance of Copts.

Might I add though, that it does appear other posts here give the "impression" of the confusion about Coptic association mainly with religion.

Even Gadalla doesn't deny the indigenousness of Coptic language, as exemplified by this:

quote:

---

Gadalla:
In addition to the violation of Ancient Egyptian temples, the fanatic Christians adopted a new script called the Coptic language — basically demotic Egyptian written in Greek characters with a few additional letters — from about 300 CE. A non-Egyptian alphabet was intended for the use of those non-Egyptians who were schooled in the Greek language. This move had the effect of re-emphasizing the cultural divide between them and the true native Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Yes, the Coptics have retained the calender system of the ancent Egyptians,but so have the Fellahin and Sai'idi people in rural parts of Upper Egypt.

---

This is good. Now we are seeing the Copts, no matter how much mixed
with foreigners, as a surviving element sharing in remnants of
Kmt with those of ovbiously much much less north and east Med admixture.

There doesnt have to be a heavyweight bout where only one contestant
comes out with the belt. Every little piece adds up to the whole.

We need holistic understanding more than pigeonholing to
understand who are the heirs of Kmt by their retention of its culture
rather than by conquest of its real estate.

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:

Even Gadalla doesn't deny the indigenousness of Coptic language, as exemplified by this:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gadalla:
In addition to the violation of Ancient Egyptian temples, the fanatic Christians adopted a new script called the Coptic language — basically demotic Egyptian written in Greek characters with a few additional letters — from about 300 CE. A non-Egyptian alphabet was intended for the use of those non-Egyptians who were schooled in the Greek language. This move had the effect of re-emphasizing the cultural divide between them and the true native Egyptians.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 24 December 2004).]

---

What Godalla denies is that the Copts are of Egyptian origin. If one
critically examines the given quote from him it makes no sense.

I am sorry to say it but Godalla is babying his readership. Demotic is
a script not a language. And surely the nonEgyptians schooled in
Greek already had a nonEgyptian alphabet and character set. If there was
an attempt to re emphasize a cultural divide then sticking to the real
Greek characters would have been a better ploy.

I wont address violation of the temples because it was already
shown that in times of social or religious upheaval the Kmtyw did the same.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
What Godalla denies is that the Copts are of Egyptian origin. If one
critically examines the given quote from him it makes no sense.

I am sorry to say it but Godalla is babying his readership. Demotic is
a script not a language. And surely the nonEgyptians schooled in
Greek already had a nonEgyptian alphabet and character set. If there was
an attempt to re emphasize a cultural divide then sticking to the real
Greek characters would have been a better ploy.

I wont address violation of the temples because it was already
shown that in times of social or religious upheaval the Kmtyw did the same.[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 24 December 2004).]

---

I think the balance of evidence shows that the Copts are of diverse ethnic background.
Copt does not define an ethnicity per se. Certainly elements of Km.t culture survive among the Copts as they do among other groups of Egyptians, but there are also European cultural elements there as well.

I don't think Godalla's logic is flawed here and neither is yours. But you are talking past each other, so to speak by emphasizing different but valid aspects of Coptic identity which best serves your respective points of view.

quote:

---

alTakruri:
What Godalla denies is that the Copts are of Egyptian origin.

---

How he does specifically say so, in light of the quote I provided?

quote:

---

alTakruri:
If one critically examines the given quote from him it makes no sense.

---

On that note, please re-state the specifics of the quote that don't make sense, and analyze how so.

quote:

---

alTakruri:
I am sorry to say it but Godalla is babying his readership. Demotic is
a script not a language.

---

I am not sure how this ties in with the particular quote I provided, because here, he clearly states that "Coptic language" was basically "demotic Egyptian" written in "Greek characters" with "a few additional letters"; sure "demotic" is a script, but it is a script of what language according to the quote in question?

quote:

---

alTakruri:
And surely the nonEgyptians schooled in
Greek already had a nonEgyptian alphabet and character set. If there was
an attempt to re emphasize a cultural divide then sticking to the real
Greek characters would have been a better ploy.

---

I think what should be understood here, is the context in which Gadalla tries to put things. Take the example of his reference to the Afrangi. Here, he claims that the Afrangi compromised their heritage by appeasing to the authority, culture and values of the invading minority ruling group. The implication here, is that the Afrangi were also more willing to intermingle with the invaders, and adopt their language. All this for what? For earning favoritism from the invaders, and hence increasing the prospect of being afforded priviledged social status. Meanwhile he refers to the Afrangi as being perceived as minority foreigners. In the same sense, it can be said that a small group of Christians, which he refers to as fanatic Christians, were willing to compromise their indigenous heritage, and while not wholeheartedly accepting an entirely new language as in the case of the Afrangi, didn't hesistate to use Greek characters in their script as the expression of the spoken Egyptian language (which Gadalla refers to as "demotic" Egyptian). Again, the implication is that these Coptic Christians were more willing to mix with non-Egyptians (Greeks or Romans), with some Greek priests amongst local christian priests. Remember that at this point in time, foreigners who wanted to be seen as Egyptian citizens, still had to adopt elements of Egyptian culture. This changed with the coming of Arab invaders.

Additionally, the following should give an idea of where Gadalla is coming from:

quote:

---

Gadalla:

Ptolemy compensated his mercenary troops (Syrians, Greeks, Macedonians, Persians and Hellenized Asiatics) by giving them tracts of land among the Egyptian population in towns near the capitals of the provinces, into which Egypt was divided.

These pockets of foreign settlements are exactly where the Christian population is concentrated in present-day Egypt...

When the Romans arrived in Alexandria, they gave preferred treatment to the Jews. Augustus granted self-government to the Hellenized Jews of Alexandria...

The Romans reinforced foreign settlement, by bringing in more foreigners. The Jewish colony in Alexandria is said to have had a population of 1 million in the 1st century CE.

Christianity arrived early in Alexandria, from Judaea and Syria...

In 312 CE, Christianity was made the official and only religion of the Roman Empire. A short time later, the Roman Empire split. Egypt became part of the Eastern (or Byzantine) Empire in 323 CE.

The decree that there be only one religious system (Christianity), and that anything else is untrue, is dictatorial. It allowed Christian fanatics to destroy the native Egyptian religious rights, properties, and temples...

The same year (391 CE) saw the beginning of legislation that aimed to outlaw ancient Egyptian rites and to close the temples…

In addition to the violation of Ancient Egyptian temples, the fanatic Christians adopted a new script called the Coptic language — basically demotic Egyptian written in Greek characters with a few additional letters — from about 300 CE…The Greek characters are not any easier than the Egyptian demotic script, which is yet another indication that the Church emphasis was on the Greek-speaking population of Alexandria, Fayoum, and a few other colonies of foreigners...

The term Melkite [one of the two Christian factions in Egypt], as employed in Egypt, is of a Syriac origin, and there is no anachronism in using it before the Arab conquest. This is an additional piece of evidence that the early Christians were using Syriac language and names, indicating their origin to be Syria/Palestine and not Egypt.

Syrian migration to Alexandria constituted the bulk of the early Christians in Egypt. They — the Christians in Egypt — continue to maintain physical and personal traits that are very Syrian. It is easy for native Egyptians, to this date, to distinguish a Christian (so-called ‘Copt’), just based on his/her body language and features, which reflects peculiar Syrian (non-Egyptian) traits.

The spread of Persian power throughout Syria culminated in the conquest of Jerusalem (615 CE) and Persian hostility to Christians, which thrust more Syrian Christian refugees westward to Alexandria...

There is no archaeological evidence, outside Alexandria, to substantiate the Christians’ overly exaggerated popularity claims. Accepting Christianity is to accept the Bible, which condemns ancient Egypt and establishes the Jews as God’s "chosen people". It is totally incompatible with Egyptian history, nature, and traditions.

---

quote:

---

rasol:
I don't think Godalla's logic is flawed here and neither is yours. But you are talking past each other, so to speak by emphasizing different but valid aspects of Coptic identity which best serves your respective points of view.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I guess part of what is confusing me is that I always tend to associate Coptic with Christian when the two may not be interchangeable. I know that the early Christians in Egypt were not most tolerant group of people, but perhaps they were not Copts???

---

Well, Coptic is associated with the Christians. Over the years, it appears to have developed some kind of a nationalistic connotation to it, in a manner not too different from Arabic. But as Gadalla's comments pointed out, the bulk of Egypt's Christian population was in towns with relatively larger foreign settlements. The religion appeared to have gained some grounds, apparently during the Roman authority in Egypt, with the influx of foreigners. So the Christian groups had diverse foreign background with local admixture. What Gadalla took note of, is the development of Coptic script from within one of these areas of relatively larger foreign settlements, and spreading to other similarly occupied towns. Recalling one of his quotes, he made a reference to such cities harboring the bulk of the Christian population in contemporary Egypt. On the question of the move to express indigenous Egyptian language in the form Greek characters, Gadalla attributes this to the popularity it gained from fanatic Christians, and Churches within sections of Egypt with relatively larger settlements of Greek-speaking or Hellenized folks. So the script definitely has strong ties with Christian populations in Egypt, but Coptic in itself isn't Christianity. It is more like a linguistic lineage that Christian sections of the population identify with, given the history of its extensive and official usage in the Church.

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
Well, Coptic is associated with the Christians. Over the years, it appears to have developed some kind of a nationalistic connotation to it, in a manner not too different from Arabic.

---

The Egyptian nationalist element of the Copts is the pride they have in having not been Arabized through Islam. The Christians of Egypt resisted the Arab invaders and held on to the latter form of the ancient language. However, if you look closely, one can see that upper Egyptian Muslims have also held on to ancient customs and the language. Not all Copts are Egyptian nationalists however. There are quite a few who are Arab nationalists and identify themselves as Arabs.

Bottom line is, Gadalla may be right about foriegnors bringing Christianity to Egypt but he is wrong to give the impression that Copts are all descended from immigrants to Egypt.

As far as how Copts look. Most that I have known personally have looked mulattoish. More like Dominicans than Greeks...

Here's something I took from another forum:
http://www.salam-shalom.net/salam-shalom/arc120600.htm

"The truth of the matter is that Muslim Egyptian culture is fundamentally different from that of the Muslim Arabs, yet is identical to Coptic Christians'. Unlike the Arabs (of Arabia), the Egyptians have always remained agrarian and continued to develop city-states. Popular Egyptian Islam (like Coptic Christianity) has taken on symbols, customs, and practices that derive from ancient Egyptian religion. Many ancient Egyptian rituals and customs such as marriage rites and circumcision practices are still maintained by all Egyptians alike. The names of the months in the calendar used by both Muslim and Coptic Egyptians to calculate the agricultural seasons are the same as those used in ancient Egypt. The unique features of death and burial customs in Egyptian Islam, which are unparalleled in any other Muslim country, can be traced to Pharaonic burial practices. Muslims in Egypt focus on local saints and celebrate their birthdays in the manner it was done in ancient Egypt. Some older mosques in Egypt adhere to Pharaonic architectural principles, and the traditional hanging of ostrich eggs in front of mosques is still practiced by Egyptian villagers in keeping with the ancient custom in Egyptian temples. The local pilgrimages to the tombs of Muslim saints and the prayers recited there and the music that accompanies the reciting of the Qur'an are characteristic of ancient Egyptian religion, not Islam. In fact, traditional Islam abhors and prohibits these practices."

"The ruling Arabs guarded their lineage by not mixing with the locals, as per their tribal traditions (being Arab then was an ethnic identity based on kinship and descent). They felt superior to and more noble than Egyptians. Muslims Egyptians were considered Mawali and Christian Egyptians were Thimmi -- both designated a protected, albeit inferior, status. It was a far cry from the all-out oppression and persecution heaped upon the Egyptians by the Romans/Byzantines, but it wasn't the best either. This attitude between Egyptians and Arabs continued until the modern period, and the feeling was certainly mutual. The nomadic Arabs (Badou) who remained in Egypt looked down to rural Egyptians (both Muslims and Copts) with general contempt and considered them to be inferior "slaves", while the Egyptian fellahin held a traditional image of the Arabs as being ignorant, uncouth primitives, who lived by tyrannizing the fellahin and exploiting their sedentary culture. Urban Egyptians in the larger cities elaborated on this image to encompass all the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula, while modern nationalist intellectuals used it to distance Egyptian civilization from Arabism."

quote:

---

neo*geo:
Bottom line is, Gadalla may be right about foriegnors bringing Christianity to Egypt but he is wrong to give the impression that Copts are all descended from immigrants to Egypt.

---

Neo*geo, you are right that various "Copts" may trace their lineage to "indigenous" Egyptians, as opposed to just distant immigrants. But I am not sure about your understanding of Gadalla's perspective. I mean, what "impression" (the specifics) did he give that Copts are "all" descended from immigrants to Egypt?

quote:

---

alTakruri:

find a lot of Gadallas writing hard to accept about Greek
origins for the Copts. Yes, there is a heavy even predominant Greek
element about the Copts, yet, if as Gadalla says the Greeks imposed
their language, why is it that Coptic is the only living language of
the Egyptian language family. Theophile Obenga recognizes that.
Maybe he was wrong but I still trust Volneys assessment of Coptic
origins over Gadallas illogic that

1. Hellenes imposed Greek on Egyptians
2. Egyptian Christians spoke Greek
3. Copts are the Egyptian Christians
4. Copts are Hellenes

when

5. Copts speak Egyptic

Premises 1, 2, & 3 do not lead to conclusion 4.

Statement 5 contradicts premise 2. All Egyptian Christians evidently
did not speak Greek exclusive of Egyptic. Though heavily miscegenated,
their holding onto Egyptic suggests Copts are descendents of AEs.

---

I caste my doubts on the above analysis as a coherent expression of Mr. Gadalla's perspective. While evidently that of others may differ, this is my understanding of Gadalla's logic:

1. Jewish & foreign settlements in certain Greek controlled cities & towns were Hellenized; especially so in Alexandria.

2. Early Christian converts were among these "Hellenized" Jewish & foreign settlements, after the religion's introduction from "Judaea".

3. Early Christian Church literature was in Greek.

4. Native Egyptians spoke "Egyptic".

5. To spread the religion, i.e., to convert Native Egyptians, the Christian Church adopted Coptic script (Native Egyptian language translated in Greek characters, other words from demotic Egytian script).

6. Conversion tactics of the Christians were reckless under Byzantine authority, with Jews dispelled and symbols of Native Egyptian religion vandalized.

7. With Nomad Arab invasions, Islam replaced Christianity as the dominant religion.

8. Arabs called non-Muslims "Copts", a word derived from the Greek word for "Egyptian".

9. Given 1, 2, 3, 4 & 6, Christians (so-called "Copts") cannot be considered the true link between Ancient Egypt and the present. In other words, given their "un-Egyptian" origins and diverse background, "Copts" cannot be the "true" descendants of Ancient Egyptian founders.
   

I must retract the statement I made that Demotic is only a script
but not a language. Demotic was not only a script. It was the common
vernacular or colloquial language of Kmt used outside of official or
sacred communication. The script was a late innovation for writing down
the comon people's spoken tongue.

I make this self correction because I'm not interested in winning
a debate but am concerned with the facts not with promoting a dogma.
To that end I am looking into what the Copts themselves have to say
about their origins and heritage and the proofs they adduce for
carrying on articles of culture from Kmt though obviously not its
religious cultus.

quote:

---

alTakruri:
I must retract the statement I made that Demotic is only a script
but not a language. Demotic was not only a script. It was the common
vernacular or colloquial language of Kmt used outside of official or
sacred communication. The script was a late innovation for writing down
the comon people's spoken tongue.

I make this self correction because I'm not interested in winning a debate but am concerned with the facts not with promoting a dogma....

---

Well and good. Correction of one's statement should be encouraged in civilized discussions. Like you, there are others here too interested in getting and sharing facts, and not merely here for the sake of "winning debates or promoting dogma".

quote:

---

alTakruri:
To that end I am looking into what the Copts themselves have to say about their origins and heritage and the proofs they adduce for carrying on articles of culture from Kmt though obviously not its religious cultus.

---

It's generally a good idea to examine a variety of sources and a variety of perspectives on a subject, for one to use their judgement and come to a conclusion. I am sure that the "Copts" have things to say about their heritage, which on the one hand represent facts, while on the other, represent exaggerations motivated by building pride. Of course they aren't alone in that department, for every human society has these traits. So-called Copts obviously have heritage from the "indigenous" Ancient Egyptian culture, as well as those from immigrants. On the same token, they have diverse racial backgrounds, with various "Copts" tracing their lineage back to pre-dynastic and dynastic Ancient Egyptians. The point of discussion here is a relative one, concerning their being the "closest" link to indigenous Ancient Egyptians, in light of the various foreign intrusions that occurred over time. It is on that premises, I believe that Mr. Gadalla's perspective is being questioned, for I doubt "anyone" here is in effect denying the fact that "Copts" have preserved some indigenous Egyptian culture, as did other descendants of dynastic Egyptians. I personally felt that Mr. Gadalla's point wasn't fully understood by some here, and on that issue, we may or may not still be in agreement with one another. However, I have presented my take on his message!

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
But I am not sure about your understanding of Gadalla's perspective. I mean, what "impression" (the specifics) did he give that Copts are "all" descended from immigrants to Egypt?

---

From Gadalla's essay on Copts:

quote:

---

Researchers of Ancient Egypt assumed WRONGLY that the Christians in Egypt (so-called "Copts") are the link between Ancient Egypt and our present time. On the contrary, the Christians in Egypt are NOT natives of Egypt, but a foreign minority.

---

From that statement he is clearly making the generalization that Christians in Egypt aren't indigenous. This is wrong. Christians in Egypt are no different from Muslims ethnically and culturally. I'd like to add that there are both minority foriegn Christians and Muslims in Egypt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by neo*geo:
From that statement he is clearly making the generalization that Christians in Egypt aren't indigenous. This is wrong. Christians in Egypt are no different from Muslims ethnically and culturally. I'd like to add that there are both minority foriegn Christians and Muslims in Egypt.

---

Certainly, you are entitled to deduce what you wish from that statement. I tend to examine the entire body of his commentary, and then come to the conclusion about what he is trying to convey to his readership. I take it that you haven't quite read his take on Muslims in Egypt in the link I provided several posts ago, for he is just as critical about their origins in Egypt. In that website, he gives the reader his take on the minority Afrangi, in a manner which does not leave the reader with an impression of better character than that of fanatic Christians. As mentioned before, these groups add a nationalistic connotation to those labels given to them, mainly by foreigners. At the same time, their members give the impression that this is suppose to be the indigenous Egyptian identity. This is what Gadalla seems to have a problem with. He is looking at the overall picture from the beginnings of the so-called groups (The "Afrangi" and "Copts"), the foreign traditions they adopted over indigenous culture (not withstanding some which they may have preserved), the extent of their intermingling with foreigners, and what they identify with. His conclusion is that neither of these folks can be looked as the "true" link between Ancient Egyptians and the present, from the perspective of origin, track record, cultural identity and racial outlook, as they have been perceived by some.

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:

Today there may be visible evidence of Ancient Egyptian presence in Egypt, in the form of the artifacts and building complexes they left behind, but the traditions the passed on may not be as visible. This leads one to think about the contrast between the highly civilized society of Ancient Egyptians, and the chaotic state of modern Egypt. Needless to note that this contrast has spawned several baseless assessments of modern day Egypt, like:

1. Comments about the Muslim population (90%) being Arab settlers from the Arabian peninsula, while the remaining 10% is made up of Copts, referred to as the “true” Egyptian descendants of Ancient Egypt.

   As for the true non-Egyptian origins of Copts, here is the link the explains it: http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/copts.html

---

These are the statements that prompted my replies, that Gadalla is the
only reference given and given to the effect of denying Copts their true
Egyptian descent. If that premise is now being modified to admit that

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:

So-called Copts obviously have heritage from the "indigenous" Ancient Egyptian culture, as well as those from immigrants. On the same token, they have diverse racial backgrounds, with various "Copts" tracing their lineage back to pre-dynastic and dynastic Ancient Egyptians. The point of discussion here is a relative one, concerning their being the "closest" link to indigenous Ancient Egyptians, in light of the various foreign intrusions that occurred over time.

---

then I have no issue to persue as I am not parcel to concepts of pure
descent for any people unless they have lived in total isolation. The
relative proportion of phenotypic "racial" inheritance <ahem> pales in
comparison to cultural survivals, lineage, and continuacy of residence.

By those criteria, Copts are as much latent Egypt in modern Egypt as
are certain other groups in that land today. By criterium of "pure race,"
"limpieza de sangre," etc., I leave myself out of such discussion as the
proponents of those kind of ideas fostered such things as eugenics, the
Expulsion from Spain of Imazighen, Hebrews, and Arabs and the atrocities
of Nazi Germany againsts damn near everyone they wanted to exterminate
or confiscate their land and or finances including whole countries.

The limits of the usefulness of Gadalla's work, The Exiled Egyptians,
-- from which the reference URL is an extract -- is a topic I'd be willing
to discuss in a new thread devoted to that topic.

Here is an old post from Egyptsearch that hopefully will clarify matters without further comment from moi:

quote:

---

]Egyptiangurl writes: just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANEN BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!

---

quote:

---

alTakruri:

Originally posted by supercar:
“Today there may be visible evidence of Ancient Egyptian presence in Egypt, in the form of the artifacts and building complexes they left behind, but the traditions the passed on may not be as visible. This leads one to think about the contrast between the highly civilized society of Ancient Egyptians, and the chaotic state of modern Egypt. Needless to note that this contrast has spawned several baseless assessments of modern day Egypt, like”:

1. Comments about the Muslim population (90%) being Arab settlers from the Arabian peninsula, while the remaining 10% is made up of Copts, referred to as the “true” Egyptian descendants of Ancient Egypt.

2. As for the true non-Egyptian origins of Copts, here is the link the explains it: http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/copts.html "
   

These are the statements that prompted my replies, that Gadalla is the only reference given and given to the effect of denying Copts their true Egyptian descent. If that premise is now being modified to admit that

Originally posted by supercar:
“So-called Copts obviously have heritage from the "indigenous" Ancient Egyptian culture, as well as those from immigrants. On the same token, they have diverse racial backgrounds, with various "Copts" tracing their lineage back to pre-dynastic and dynastic Ancient Egyptians. The point of discussion here is a relative one, concerning their being the "closest" link to indigenous Ancient Egyptians, in light of the various foreign intrusions that occurred over time.”

Originally posted by alTakruri:
then I have no issue to persue as I am not parcel to concepts of pure descent for any people unless they have lived in total isolation. The relative proportion of phenotypic "racial" inheritance <ahem> pales in comparison to cultural survivals, lineage, and continuacy of residence.

By those criteria, Copts are as much latent Egypt in modern Egypt as are certain other groups in that land today. By criterium of "pure race," "limpieza de sangre," etc., I leave myself out of such discussion as the
proponents of those kind of ideas fostered such things as eugenics, the Expulsion from Spain of Imazighen, Hebrews, and Arabs and the atrocities of Nazi Germany againsts damn near everyone they wanted to exterminate or confiscate their land and or finances including whole countries.

The limits of the usefulness of Gadalla's work, The Exiled Egyptians, -- from which the reference URL is an extract -- is a topic I'd be willing to discuss in a new thread devoted to that topic.

---

The premise hasn't changed from the intro notes. Based on Gadalla's notes, I stated that "Copts" were perceived by some as the "True" decendants of Ancient Egyptians. Naturally, this would have to be a "relative" comparison, for other Egyptians too would argue that they can trace their lineage to Ancient Egypt. Saying that Christians in Egypt have "non-Egyptian" or "un-Egyptian" origins, if one carefully reads the Gadalla notes on the link provided, should be understood. As for the second quote of mine, I am trying to let it be known, that no one is denying there is some link, but that this isn't the issue. There is no need to start a whole new topic on what was just said here, involving excerpts of "The Exiled Egyptians".

quote:

---

rasol:
I can understand and agree with Gadalla's comments because I understand the context of what he is responding to.

Here is an old post from Egyptsearch that hopefully will clarify matters without further comment from moi:

Egyptiangurl writes: just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANEN BUT NOT BLACK...PERIOD!

---

I am with you on this.

93.0388

McBRIDE, Daniel R., The Development of Coptic: Late-Pagan Language of Synthesis in Egypt, JSSEA
19 (1989), [1993], 89-111.

Coptic existed as a pagan phenomenon long before its further development in Christianised Egypt. To explain the early stages of this process, a social model is proposed, which is based upon Greek-Egyptian interaction from 650 B.C. to 384 A.D., a period designated here as the Early Coptic Period. Coptic arose out of the needs of a relatively small Graeco-Egyptian social class whose primary concerns were religious. A decisive phase in this development began in 164 B.C., from which date membership in the Egyptian priesthood began to include Greeks. This provided in turn the base for a fusion of Greek and Egyptian philosophical and religious thought. The rise of Coptic is to be associated with Lower Egypt; Demotic became a bastion of the conservative south.
W.H.

A piece taken from Ausar's thread:
The Development of Coptic: Late-Pagan Language of Synthesis

You did initially plainly state the Copts truly are of nonEgyptian
origin and used Gadalla to back you up. Of late you did modify your
initial statement to allow primeval Egyptian origins for Copts.

Therre are many topics in The Exiled Egyptians that would make
excellent discussion material for the group. It doesnt have to be about
Gadallas opinion of the Copts but for one it could be about his general
disdain for biblical religions and western civilization and how that
discolors his presentation of Sahelian cultures in relation to Kmt.

For instance

1. original negroids tutored by highly civilized light skinned people
   
2. West African bronze casting was taught to them by Egyptians, not an independent local invention
   
3. Nok learned ferrous metallurgy from Kush
   
4. Songhai are not native Africans
   
5. Nile and Niger were connected 2kya
   
6. Egyptians were the founders and ruling class of the Sahelian kingdoms
   
7. there were no gold mines in West Africa outside of the present confines of Mali
   
8. Wangaran gold came from "exiled" Egyptians
   
9. Tuareg are self proclaimed caucasians
   
10. alMoravids were gangsters
    
11. Soninke Keitas were barbarian aggresive gangsters
    
12. Malian Mansas ushered in the African Dark Age
    
13. the word Orisha comes from Horus the latinized version of Heru
    
14. Yoruba and Igbede houses and lamps are of Roman design
    
15. Benin source of copper was melted down Egyptian statues
    
16. Fulani are uncultured gloomy people without song or dance hated and feared by West Africans
    
17. Fulfulde is Hausa
    
18. Uthman dan Fodio developed a terrorist camp
    
19. alHajji Umar was a terrorist gang leader
    
20. Sokoto Caliphate was a bloody animal farm
    
21. Shehu Ahmadu was a terrorist
    
22. European colonialism ended Africas misery
    

This is subject matter unrelated to this thread and would need a
new thread of its own were it and other topics in The Exiled Egyptians
discussed by all this groups membership as to the limits of its usefulness.

Philo, the Alexandrian Jewish Philosoph who lived in the first century
said "The first Christians took from the Ancient Egyptian Hymns & used
it in their new worship"

Whether they took it as is, adding a spiritual dimension or didn't
take it, the Egyptian Art was still living and was still Egyptian
Flesh & Blood. The Singary tune was named after Singar a city in
the delta since Ramses II which became famous in the Coptic Aera. . .

. . . Edriby Tune is probably named after Edribah the City whose
Ancient temple was changed by Abba Shenuti to a church.. Copts used
also to find a relation with the Coptic word "Eder Hipi" which means
sorrowful.

. . . The Egyptian Church arts & dogmas began to raise with the
beginning of Christianity in Egypt.. The Egyptian Church has it's
own four masses never used by any other church.

. . . Certainly the Egyptian St.Basil Mass does belong to the
Egyptian Church. It was used before the division of 451 (long
before St.Basil the Great). St.Basil's Mass Music is pure
Egyptian except the confession part & Confession Introduction
they are Byzantine.

This Byzantine part also belongs to the Egyptian Church since it
has no brother in the Costantinople text except a small sentence.

. . . The sorrowful hymns have a very strong influence.. No music
in the whole world is similar. It seems that this special aspect
did characterise Egypt since very old ages: Herodote who visited
Egypt in 460 BC said in his book about Egypt section 79:"One thing
I am wondering about, which is the source of the song called Linos.
I think it is so old there, they call it Maniros. They say that Maniros
was the only son of their very first King. He died very young so that
they sang this sorrowful song for him. And that this song was the first
one they had." In 1933, when more than 30 European Musician & Scientist
heard these sorrowful songs, in the Music Conference held in Cairo, where
I had the honour to be a member, a strong feeling mastered them.. I will
never forget the "Singing Science" Professors in the Sorbone - Paris who
asked Hegmn. Morcos Shenouda to repeat the Commemoration of Saints OVER 6 TIMES.

Coptic Music is Not Arabic, Not Turkish, Not Byzantine & Not Western
IT IS PURE ORIGINAL EGYPTIAN MUSIC.

. . . Copts tend now to use western songs & hymns which are superficial
in both structure & meaning.. It's music is repulsive with our Church's
beautiful dogmas & hymns. What really hurts me & breaks my heart is that
these songs did invade some of our Coptic Orthodox Church's atmosphere.
which surely not appropriate with our father's spirit.

So, dear Copts I urge you to preserve Your heritage & Your church's tradition..

These exerpts tells one -- not THE ONLY so called TRUE -- version how
Egyptic entered Arabic dialects. Those only interested in race talk will
find it boring but should try to read it anyway.

Common words in the spoken Arabic of Egypt, of Greek or Coptic origin
by Prof. Dr. Georgy Sobhy Bey

Preface

. . . I hope that the present modest work will stimulate the
sons and daughters of the Coptic Community—the direct descendants
of that great nation, the .ancient Egyptians—to study their own
language and to strive to (the utmost in their power to stop that
dear idiom from disappearing altogether; and to tight with all the
means in their possession, and to condemn whoever, amongst the clergy
and the laity, attempts or promotes in .my way the cessation of the
recital of the liturgy in any language but Coptic.
. . . .

Introduction

The Coptic language, so-named by the Arabs on their conquest of Egypt,
is the vernacular spoken language of Ancient Egypt. The language we
read in the Hieroglyphic texts was that of books and of official and
sacred texts. Side by side with this language, the common people and
the public used a freer and earlier idiom in their daily relations.
This colloquial language was unfortunately never written down until
the Saitic Period 600 B. C. A special script was devised for it, and
was called by the contemporaneous Greeks "'The Demotic", or the language
of the people", and by the Ancient Egyptians themselves the - Egyptian
language to distinguish it from the language of the hieroglyphic and
the hieratic texts, which was considered as the sacred language. With
the lapse of time the Demotic language evolved; and by the Roman Period,
when Egvpt became Christian, it had become the official colloquial language
of the country, with the gradual disuse of the sacred, but inelastic and
unevolving. language. The Greek civilisation pervaded all phases of life
in Egvpt, and the thought came, to the First. Egyptian Christian converts,
to write their language in Greek letters — much as the Turks have done in
our days.

Special signs from the 'Demotic' were added to the Greek alphabet to
represent characteristic sounds of Coptic that could not be represented
by the Greek letters and the Coptic alphabet was constituted.

We do not know whether any part of the Scriptures was translated in Demotic
but there are extensive parts of the Scriptures translated into the Akhmimic
Dialect, the most archaic of all dialects, synchronous in all probability
with the use of Demotic by the non-converted Egyptians. We must bear in mind
that it was the Christian Egyptians who wrote their language in the Greek
alphabet although certain trials had been made by the Pagans before them.

There are certain qualities of the spoken Arabic of Egypt which are
characteristic to it and do not obtain in any other dialect of Arabic
in other countries. Moreover there are phenomena including particular
vocabularies in different provinces of Egypt, phenomena which are
comparable to similar ones in the Coptic idiom of the same different
provinces.

continue at http://www.coptic.org/language/georgy/common.htm

Coptic Music From Mothers Chanting To Mlm.Mikhail El-Batanony Hymns
By Dr.Ragheb Habashy Moftah (Jan 7th, 1995)
---------------------------------------------------------------

Music is known to be different from all other arts whose influence
disappear when it goes away. It is an art, where all people participate
and sing, day & night, in sadness & joy. Even when it disappears, a
picture remains surviving on people's tongues, sang as time passes.

At Scholars and Scientists testimony, Ancient Egyptian music is STILL
surviving under two forms:

One form appears in the life of people specially Egyptian peasants
mainly in the South who have lived until this day isolated from outer
coming influences.. Their songs and hymns remained undoubtfuly unchanged
since long ages. What might have changed are the words. But we suggest
performance is most likely the same as in ancient times. The second
form, is the hymns which are sung in Coptic Churches everywhere by
cantors and people. Copts are Egyptians, they inherited from their
fathers, the Ancient Egyptians the music. Even the new belief didn't
affect or change this heritage, at the contrary, the belief put on
the music. New words coloured the ancient music which remained intact,
Pharaonic in flesh & blood.

About folklore Music, it is known that it comes out of peoples life
over thousands of years. That is quite clear because the same atmosphere
which pushed the Egyptian in the past to express himself in singing and
chanting is still unchanged until today. Traditions, Customs, Environment
and Nature didn't change except few.

Illona Borsai, presents several examples supported by musical transcriptions
proving this previous opinions.. Among others, a song sung by mothers to calm
their babies is:

"Ho..
Nam, Nam
Wadbahlak Goz Hamam
Wafarrak hulak ealgiran
Oskot, Oskot
Wadbahlak Goz Kot Kot.."

Also, the tradition of borrowing some women to cry the dead, helping,
therefore his family to cry & regret the person's death are all very
old traditions. Also, the songs of sailors and workers where one leader
sings many monotonous verses and the whole group replies always with a
standard sentence. All that represent very old singing even if words are
keeping changing.

About Coptic Church Music, Illona Borsai says that melodic aspects always
remain intact in unwritten oral musics such as folk and Oriental Church
Music melodies.

THE COPTIC CHURCH MUSIC IS A DESCENDANT OF ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MUSIC:

One more thing proving the reliability of Ancient Egyptian Music in Coptic
Hymns is the resemblance in words and difference in music with other churches.
That is well shown in Ethiopian Church Music which is very different from
Coptic Music although the whole Ethiopian Church was conceived by the Coptic
Church. Each of them, in fact, preserve and represent the aspects of it's
ancient culture (The same applies to all Apostolic Churches)

Hickman proved that by comparing the singers face muscles found on "New
Kingdom Sakkara's temples" walls and those of Coptic cantors when performing.

Their is also a resemblance in melodic and rhythmic signs performed by a singer
or orchestra conductor, giving the rhythm by his right hand on the knee while
the left hand draws in the air the main skeleton of the melody. The rhythm bits
usually accompany the melody in all bits.. (the translator: I think that means
the "Dum" & the "Tak") or sometimes the hand shows the "Dums: heavy bits of the
rhythm" only to clarify the speed and kind of rhythm which is played. From here
came out the hand signs (Cheironomy) showing Rhythm and Melody of Music. As we
know they are both the hypostasis of any music.

. . .

Chanting & Praising Methods:

The Coptic Church uses its vocal (not instrumental) music in worship. This is
an Ancient Egyptian secular & religious habit. In the New Kingdom of Pharaohs
time, the voice got great importance and big emphasis. They considered human's
voice as transmitter of spirit from one person to another. And the purest and
most honest method of expression. The God Tot named Osiris as (True of voice).
One of the dogmas performed in temples was called (The release of voice), this
latest is well known to Copts (Osh Evol). They believed that voice has a magic
power.

. . .

Sources of the Coptic Church Hymns:

- We have mentioned that Philo (1st century) told that the Early Christians did
take the Ancient Egyptian tunes and put to them Christian texts. Among those
hymns: Gholgotha which Ancient Egyptians used when mummifying and Pek Ethronos
whose first half is full of sadness and sorrow for the Pharaoh's death and the
second full of joy to celebrate his wedding trip to the Sun Boat to take him to
Ra3 in the world of eternity.

continue at http://www.coptic.org/music/xmas95.htm