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the lioness,
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which haplogroups are European?

xyyman and Clyde say there aren't any.

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xyyman
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not even SLC45A2 is European. Shriver et al. AMH left Africa with the "white" gene. I am waaaay ahead of you.

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the lioness,
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http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378


2010

Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia


Claudio Ottoni equal contributor,
Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor,
Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,Alessandro Achillii, Cristina Martínez-Labarga,Gianfranco Biondi,Antonio Torroni,
Olga Rickards

Abstract

The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1, a mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that is common in all Western European populations. To define how and when H1 spread from Europe to North Africa up to the Central Sahara, in Fezzan, we investigated the complete mitochondrial genomes of eleven Libyan Tuareg belonging to H1. Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago, while phylogenetic analyses reveal three novel H1 branches, termed H1v, H1w and H1x, which appear to be specific for North African populations, but whose frequencies can be extremely different even in relatively close Tuareg villages. Overall, these findings support the scenario of an arrival of haplogroup H1 in North Africa from Iberia at the beginning of the Holocene, as a consequence of the improvement in climate conditions after the Younger Dryas cold snap, followed by in situ formation of local H1 sub-haplogroups. This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.

Introduction

In the last few years the story of human migrations has been extensively reconstructed thanks to the contribution of archaeology and genetics, particularly the latter through the study of the two uniparentally transmitted genetic systems: mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome. The study of maternal genealogies appears to indicate that the peopling of the Eurasian continent by modern humans likely began around 60–70 thousand years ago (kya) through the ‘southern coastal route’ from the Horn of Africa via Arabia and South Asia, up to Australasia [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. However, alternative exit scenarios, including a more northern route into the Levant and multiple waves of migration (see Kayser 2010 [6] and Majumder 2010 [7] for a review), have recently regained some momentum after the postulated detection of some Neanderthal nuclear DNA variation in the genomes of modern Eurasians [8]. The ‘southern coastal route’ scenario instead implies that, blocked by deserts, humans could not move from the Arabian Gulf area into the Levant earlier than 50 kya, when climate conditions improved [9]. Entrance into the Levant paved the way to the dispersal of modern humans both north-westward into Europe and south-westward into Northern Africa [10], [11]. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), approximately between 26.5 and 19 kya [12] ice sheets largely covered large portions of North America and Europe. In warmer regions of the world, the climate was cooler and drier and deserts spread over large regions, particularly in Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia [13], [14]. Accordingly, during the LGM, humans concentrated in refugial areas of southwestern Europe, in the Balkans and Levant, and on the east European plains [9], [15], [16]. The subsequent Bølling warming, around 15 kya, triggered re-expansion processes which led to the resettlement of Central and Northern Europe. Genetic signatures of these expansions are evident in mtDNA genealogies, for instance haplogroups H1, H3 and V contributed to the gradual re-peopling of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge in the postglacial [17], [18]. Similarly, though to a lesser extent, H5*(xH5a), H20 and H21 may be associated to a postglacial population expansion phase in the Caucasus area [19]. Although restricted to the Mediterranean coast, an expansion took place also from the Italian peninsula northward, as attested to by the haplogroup U5b3 [20].

Evidence of trans-Mediterranean contacts between Northern Africa and Western Europe has been assessed at the level of different genetic markers (e.g. [21], [22], [23], [24]). With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent [17], [18], [25], but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa [26], [27]. So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.

Within the West-European component in North Africa, H1 is the most represented haplogroup with frequencies ranging from 21% in some Tunisian Berber groups to 1% in Egypt [28]. Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]. Tuareg are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of Northwest Africa, who speak a Berber language. MtDNA analyses performed on the Libyan Tuareg have highlighted their genetic relatedness with some Berber groups and other North African populations, mainly resulting from the sharing of a common West-Eurasian component. A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.

To better define the nature and extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya we have now determined the complete sequence of eleven of their mtDNAs belonging to H1. The comparison of these H1 sequences with those already available from Europe and North Africa provides new clues on how and when H1 spread in Northern Africa up to the Central Sahara.

Results

The most parsimonious tree encompassing eleven complete H1 mtDNAs from the Tuareg together with four previously published sequences from Tunisia [35], one Berber from Egypt [17] and two Jewish Moroccans [36] is illustrated in Figure 1. All Tuareg sequences clustered into three clades that had not been previously reported and thus were termed H1v, H1w and H1x. Five sequences grouped into the sub-clade H1v1 defined by the transition at np 4313. One Tunisian sequence (# 8) did not cluster into H1v1 but was closely related, since it harbored the mutation at 10314 that defines the clade H1v (Figure 1). The sub-clade H1v1 splits into two branches defined by the transitions at np 9148 (clade H1v1a) and 14560 (clade H1v1b). Three Tuareg mtDNAs formed the novel clade H1w that is defined by the transition at np 8966, while the last three Tuareg mtDNAs, apart from the HVS-I transitions at 16037 and 16256, were found to harbor mutations at nps 7765 and 10410 in the coding region (clade H1x). The Tuareg complete mtDNAs have been deposited in GenBank, under the accession numbers reported in Table S1.


Divergence values (rho statistics and ML estimates) and the age in years of the most recent common ancestor of the main clusters are reported in Table 1, according to the evolutionary rate estimates described in Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33]. The two evolutionary rates provide a coalescence time of about 8–9 kya for the whole H1 haplogroup in North Africa. As expected, the North African-specific clades are characterized by younger ages ranging from about 3.8 to 6.7 kya for H1v, and from 2.1 to 7.9 kya for H1v1. The youngest clades were found to be H1w and H1x, with an age of about 0.8–1.1 kya.


The survey of diagnostic markers 4313, 8966, 9148 and 14560 in 50 individuals characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype showed that all of these clustered within the two novel sub-clades H1v1 and H1w identified by initial sequencing of the eight entire mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 control-region motif. Overall the 64 Libyan Tuareg mtDNAs belonging to H1 (Table S2) were mostly distributed between the clades H1v1 (38%) and H1w (53%), with a minor component (9%) belonging instead to clade H1x. Within H1v1, half of the Libyan Tuareg (i.e. 12 individuals, equal to 50%) were characterized by the transition at np 9148 (sub-clade H1v1a) and half by the transition at np 14560 (sub-clade H1v1b). It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades. Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.

An up-to-date map of the H1 spatial distribution in Africa and West Eurasia is illustrated in Figure 2. Frequency data and other details of the populations from the literature included in this survey are reported in Table S3 and in the supplementary References S1. There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and Tunisia became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples, HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).


Discussion

The H1 phylogeny based on complete North African sequences reveals a degree of branch diversification that is almost undetectable when using only control region data. Moreover, when compared to the H1 phylogeny built using complete sequences from Europe [17], [19], [38], [39], it appears that the novel branches H1v, H1w and H1x identified during the course of this study are all African-specific. This finding suggests that these H1 sub-clades most likely arose in North Africa after the arrival of the H1 European founder sequence, corresponding to the H1 node in Figure 1. The issue of the North African specificity of H1v, H1w and H1x needs to be corroborated by additional survey of H1 variation in Western Europe, especially in Iberia, but for the moment none of the European complete mtDNA sequences belonging to H1 were found to belong to these clades. This scenario is further supported by the overall age of haplogroup H1 in North Africa. Using the evolution rates recently proposed by Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33], haplogroup H1 shows a coalescence time of approximately 8–9 ky (Table 1), in agreement with the hypothesis of an early arrival and radiation of H1 in the African continent in the first half of the Holocene, as a consequence of the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula. An arrival from Iberia explains the extent of H1 variation observed in North African populations (Table 2). Indeed, Moroccans and Tunisians, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices. Thus, the coastal areas of northwestern Africa, after the arrival of the Iberian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of North Africa. The rather high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg from Sahel (23.3%), in association with intermediate diversity values, is in agreement with the proposal that drift played a major role in shaping the genetic structure of inland populations after they were entrapped in the Sahel belt by the desertification of the Sahara [37]. As for the Libyan Tuareg, the extremely low values of the diversity indices confirm that the outstanding high frequency of H1 in this population is the result of even more recent founder events.

The H1 phylogeny shows a link between the Tuareg of Libya and one Tunisian at the level of clade H1v (Figure 1). Therefore, the H1v coalescence time of about 4–7 ky (Table 1) might correspond to an ancestral split within a nomadic population of Northwest Africa, which led also to the formation of a derived Central Saharan population. The H1v1 sub-clade most likely arose in this population of Central Sahara, which, in turn, contributed extensively to the mtDNA pool of the modern villages of Tahala and Al Awaynat. However, the distribution of the H1v1 lineages in the two Tuareg villages, with H1v1b found only in Al Awaynat and 80% of H1v1a in Tahala and only 7% in Al Awaynat, indicates a rather sharp distinction and a village-specificity of the modern mtDNA gene pool. This is probably the result of peculiar long lasting cultural practices in the Tuareg, who define the affiliation to tribes by matrilineal descent [40], and points to a high degree of isolation between the two villages, at least at the maternal level, regardless of their geographic proximity.

The migratory dynamics which took place over the last 2 ky in the hyperarid Central Sahara, and which possibly led small Tuareg groups with different maternal ancestries to mix and separate from one another [29], [41], [42], could explain the presence of the other two clades, H1w and H1x (respectively 53% and 9% of the total H1 mtDNAs analyzed), in the Libyan Tuareg sample. It should be noted that historically this phase coincides with the decline of the Garamantes, whom the Tuareg consider as their ancestors according to oral traditions [43], [44], [45]. These people inhabited the Fezzan between 2.7 and 1.8 kya and established state-entities based on sedentary settlements and the trans-Saharan caravan trade system. It is plausible that the dismantling of the Garamantian society led small groups to separate as distinct tribes, or alternatively to blend into larger groups.

The French colonization, in the early 20th century, might have also determined the admixture of different Tuareg groups. Indeed, when the Tuareg were confined to restricted areas, there was a decline in their socio-political system and a forced mixture of previously separated tribal groups [46]. Nevertheless, the hypothesis that the three H1 clusters detected here in the Tuareg were all present in the same founder group cannot be totally ruled out, particularly since we are dealing with a small and isolated human group in which genetic drift might have significantly affected the make-up of the mitochondrial pool.

Overall, the results of this study support the hypothesis that most of the West Eurasian maternal contribution detectable in Northwest African populations is likely linked to prehistoric (i.e. the post-glacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula) rather than more recent historic events [26], [27], [37]. Furthermore, the data presented confirm that the analysis of complete mtDNA sequences represents a valuable tool to reveal not only the spatial patterns beneath large-scale colonization events, but also those of smaller-scale dispersals which may have contributed to the origin of modern populations. In this regard, additional efforts in the full mtDNA analyses of nomad Northern African populations might resolve the debate concerning their origin and their mutual relationship.

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the lioness,
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.
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xyyman
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Yo! we beat this to death already. Come with something new.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Yo! we beat this to death already. Come with something new.

nobody die shyt on this artcle. It was posted in with other people putting up other articles in the same berber thread, But H specifically was not addressed in the comments
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Clyde Winters
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Your desire to find a unique set of genes to identify Europeans is almost impossible. Europeans want to make themselves appear to be unique when the skeletal remains and history make it clear that the earliest European skeletons date back only to 2000BC.

Scientists know this so they created two myths to give themselves an ancient history. First, the Neanderthals were white and Indo-European languages formerly were spoken.

Myth one, neanderthal man and aurignacian man was European. The archaeological evidence shows this claim is false.Neanderthals were Blacks.


[b] Let's look at the evolution of homo sapiens.

 -

The Eves were also African


 -

The Aurignacian people who replaced the Neanderthal looked like this


Below is the ancestor of Neanderthals

,

 -

.
Here is a picture of Neanderthal man


 -
.


By 100kya Neanderthal looked like this

 -


As you can see, there is little difference between the African ancestor of Neanderthals, and the Neanderthals themselves.

Here we have Cro-Magnon or Aurignacian man

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Given the archaeological evidence it is clear that when scientists claim that this or that gene dates back to 5kya, 10kya, 20kya and etc., the carriers of these genes would have been African or negro people.


The concept of Indo-European languages are a myth. The I-E languages can be explained by history. The Persians settled unruly Greeks in India. These Greeks were later joined by Greeks when Alexander established his empire in India. Since Greeks had a long history in India, it was only natural that when Panini wrote his grammar of Sanskrit, it included elements of Greek in Sanskrit . Because Sanskrit is a lingua franca it would show cognition between Indian languages and Greek.

Finally, since Asians and Europeans evolved from Africans it is only natural the haplogroups they carry would be African genes,

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Yo! we beat this to death already. Come with something new.

Cosigned.
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the lioness,
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Clyde
A dark skinned Neanderthal from Africa is a lot more differernt genetically and in bone structure from a modern African human than is a blond haired blue eyed European or East Asian. Looks are only skin deep


__________________________________________________

http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2013/02/04/genetics.112.148213.short?rss=1

Genetics doi: 10.1534/genetics.112.148213

Higher Levels of Neanderthal Ancestry in East Asians Than in Europeans

Jeffrey D. Wall et al.

Neanderthals were a group of archaic hominins that occupied most of Europe and parts of Western Asia from roughly 30-300 thousand years ago (Kya). They coexisted with modern humans during part of this time. Previous genetic analyses that compared a draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome with genomes of several modern humans concluded that Neanderthals made a small (1-4%) contribution to the gene pools of all non-African populations. This observation was consistent with a single episode of admixture from Neanderthals into the ancestors of all non-Africans when the two groups coexisted in the Middle East 50-80 Kya. We examined the relationship between Neanderthals and modern humans in greater detail by applying two complementary methods to the published draft Neanderthal genome and an expanded set of high-coverage modern human genome sequences. We find that, consistent with the recent finding of Meyer et al. (2012), Neanderthals contributed more DNA to modern East Asians than to modern Europeans. Furthermore we find that the Maasai of East Africa have a small but significant fraction of Neanderthal DNA. Because our analysis is of several genomic samples from each modern human population considered, we are able to document the extent of variation in Neanderthal ancestry within and among populations. Our results combined with those previously published show that a more complex model of admixture between Neanderthals and modern humans is necessary to account for the different levels of Neanderthal ancestry among human populations. In particular, at least some Neanderthal-modern human admixture must postdate the separation of the ancestors of modern European and modern East Asian populations.

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xyyman
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This was beaten to death already also.....

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
This was beaten to death already also.....

which haplogroups are European?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
This was beaten to death already also.....

which haplogroups are European?
Haplotypes in Europe are sub-clades!
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
This was beaten to death already also.....

which haplogroups are European?
Haplotypes in Europe are sub-clades!
which sub clades are European?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
This was beaten to death already also.....

which haplogroups are European?
Haplotypes in Europe are sub-clades!
which sub clades are European?
You already have posted about this in previous posts.


Therefore your question is obsolete.


There are no Haplotypes that find origin/ originated within Europe.


 -

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Patrol and XYZ or others can you recap or summarize:
Which sub-clades typically CLAIMED as "European"
or "Asian" have:

a) most frequency in Africa

b) most diversity in Africa

c) Older upstream variants in Africa preceding
the claimed "EUrasian" types?

For example doesn't "R" have certain upstream variants
in Africa that are older than the claimed "Eurasian" variants?


d) cranial or skeletal characteristics showing African
features yet with DNA claimed as "EUrasian"..


e) Root types or ancestral "proto" clades originating
in Africa. They ten expanded IN Africa BEFORE any
migration out. These may or may not have been lost or diluted in or near Africa:

One scholar says of "R" for example-
"The elevation of haplogroup R at the expense of other clades within
haplogroup N and the loss of ancestral L3 types, indicates that haplogroup
R arose during the period of drift that took place somewhere between
East Africa and India before the geographical spread started."

Banbelt et al 2006. Human Mitochondrial DNA and the Evolution of Homo sapiens

As to M1 another says:

"These indicate that the root of L3 gives rise to a multifurcation from a
single haplotype producing a number of distinct subclades... The
simplest explanation for this geographical distribution [haplogroups M
and N], however, is an expansion of the root type within East Africa,
where several independent L3 branches thrive, including a sister group
to L3, christened L4 (Kivisild et al. 2004; Chap. 7), followed by
divergence into haplogroups M and N somewhere between the Horn of
Africa and the Indian subcontinent. Since neither the L3 root type nor
any other descendants survive outside Africa, the root type itself must
have become extinct during a period of genetic drift in the founder
population as it diversified into haplogroups M and N, if the
diversification was outside Africa. If on the other hand the
diversification was indeed within East Africa, then Haplogroups M and
N must have either been carried out of Africa in their entirety or
subsequently have become extinct within Africa, with the singular
exception of the derived M1."

- Hans-Jürgen Bandelt et. 2006. EDS. Human Mitochondrial DNA and
the Evolution of Homo sapiens.


f) Other characteristics that suggest an African origin?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking at the idea that clades now claimed as
"Eurasian" may not deserve that label because of
one or a combination of the 6 factors/items above..

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the lioness,
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so zarahan, a Eurasian can't be distingusihed from an Afican genetically?
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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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How do you define an "EUrasian" genetically?

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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the lioness,
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That's what I'm asking
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xyyman
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SLC45A2 IS African and NOT European. This is a myth held by Euronuts.

Quote:

To explore these ideas, we first examined worldwide allele frequency distributions for the most strongly associated SNP at each locus, using information from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) [39] and HapMap III [19]. THE DERIVED APBA2 (OCA2) ALLELE IS PRESENT AT LOW FREQUENCIES IN ***MOST POPULATIONS*** OF AFRICAN ANCESTRY, AND AT HIGH FREQUENCIES IN MOST POPULATIONS OF ASIAN AND EUROPEAN ANCESTRY. By contrast, the derived HERC2 (OCA2) allele is absent??? from African and East Asian populations, and appears at high frequency only in Western and Northern Europe (Figure 6a, 6b). These results suggest that an APBA2 (OCA2) mutation conferring light skin arose BEFORE the spread of humans out of Africa, and that a HERC2 (OCA2) mutation conferring pale eye color arose much later.


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1487/light-skin-eyes-white-africans#ixzz2iy3V5d5j

 -

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R1B is not Europeans either. A sub-sub-clade of R1b ...maybe?

 -

M126, M160, etc (S116).

One stop shop....ESR. all your answers are there.

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xyyman
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To those who do not understand. The pattern is consistent with the "mutation" taking place IN Africa and going through selective sweep OUTSIDE of Africa, especially northern Europe and North East Asia.

That is why Norton and other speculated that light skin is "ancestral". Just as I believe straight hair is ancestral and coily hair is a "recent" development. Indigenous Africans carry ALL these genes and phenotype.


Remember Herc2 expressed as blue eyes(possibly?) is found in the Great Lakes region albeit NOT by Shriver et al.

So...no genes, if any, are unique to Europe!!!! euroepans are a sub-set of Africans.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Notice The darker blue(underived) is found at higher frequency in the tropical belts..irregardless..of geographic location. That is why Rees talked about removal of the constraint. ie UV. However it is important to note that the Derived is ALWAYS found in the tropical belt. Implying that it was carried by the first AMH. No admixture needed. LOL!

Same pattern is seen with SLC45A2.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:


So...no genes, if any, are unique to Europe!!!! euroepans are a sub-set of Africans. [/QB]

also what about Asians, Amerinidans and Oceanic people, respectively?

is there such thing as a non-African haplogroup? Is there an example of one?

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

which haplogroups are European?

xyyman and Clyde say there aren't any.

And since when have you taken anything xyman and Clyde says seriously?? Answer: You haven't

This thread is nothing more than a bait for them. If you want to argue against them, then so be it but don't try to drag the rest of us into it. [Embarrassed]

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the lioness,
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I suspect the belief that there are no non-African haplogorups extends to members beyond Clyde and xyyman.
This thread was to see if theres anybody out there who could name a non-African haplogroup. zarahan came out in support of xyyman
Since the mysterious thread deletions of a few week back a few other people havent been posting lately however.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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Clearly the lioness is only looking to bait Clyde and xyyman. But I just want to point forward a semantic precision.

Technically, every haplogroups currently in Europe, Africa, Asia are European, African and Asian haplogroups respectively.

When we say, european haplogroups, we mean haplogroup which originate in Europe. So that means, haplogroup where their first ancestor, the one who developed first the mutation now at the foundation of the haplogroup, originated in Europe. Same thing for other continents of course.

We know that biologists always have some difficulty to pin-point the exact location of the origin of every haplogroups. Usually they try to combine frequency and diversity of haplogroups in modern people to pin point the most likely location of their origin and other similar technique.

If we consider ancient history only, as we often do on this site focused on Ancient Egypt; This is the most mainstream way to see Y-DNA haplogroups origin:

 -

Basically A, B and E haplogroups are Africans. While D, C and F are non-African haplogroups. For MTDNA, L and M1 (possibly) are considered Africans and other hg non-Africans.

Then there's the question of more recent back migration/inter continental migration of people. People for example, from the R haplogroup in Africa and the E haplogroup in Europe. As I demonstrated in another thread, some R descendant in Cameroon can be almost 99% African on their whole genome even if they still carry one "foreign" haplogroup. This is because, haplogroups is only a one direct line of descent and are not recombining, which are practical to study population structure, while people are in reality composed of different ancestry on their whole genome.

Ultimately, all Africans and humans in general are a complex mix of genes and haplogroups. Which becomes more apparent when we analyse mtDNA (probably due to patrilocality and exogamy) and autosomal/recombining DNA (even if regional and geographic structuring still exist).

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Ish Geber
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quote:
The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia.
--Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree 2013
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html


quote:
A1a-M31 is observed in northwestern Africans; A1b1a-M14 is seen among click language-speaking Khoisan populations. A1b1b-M32 has a wide distribution including Khoisan speaking and East African populations, and scattered members on the Arabian Peninsula


--Y-DNA Haplogroup A and its Subclades - 2013
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpA.html


--Haplogroups CT and CF: Everyone who doesn't belong to Haplogroup A or B belongs to the super-group CT, which is defined by mutations M168 and M294. This is the branch of humanity that first left Africa, although the mutation that led to CT probably happened in Africa about 50,000 - 60,000 years ago, in a man from East Africa, who's been called the "Eurasian Adam", since his descendents include all Eurasian and Asian people today. Haplogroup CT was probably the group involved in the early migration out of Africa, which spread along the southern coast of the Arabian peninsula, Iran, Pakistan, India, and all the way to southeast Asia. Here are some maps showing these early migrations. As you can see, the dates calculated from the genetic evidence correspond only roughly to dates determined by the archeological evidence. These are not yet exact sciences in terms of dating, so we have to reckon with some degree of uncertainty. Haplogroup CF diverged soon after, also in Africa, and is defined by mutation P143. Both super-groups CT and CF are found all over the world, including the Americas.

--Interesting, so this should means that a of YAP occurred splitting this CT into C and T, causing mutations in the loci, just like the DE*, as mankind left the East African coast and moved into another region.

Y-DNA haplogroup A contains lineages deriving from the earliest branching in the human Y chromosome tree. The oldest branching event, separating A0-P305 and A1-V161, is thought to have occurred about 140,000 years ago. Haplogroups A0-P305, A1a-M31 and A1b1a-M14 are restricted to Africa and A1b1b-M32 is nearly restricted to Africa. The haplogroup that would be named A1b2 is composed of haplogroups B through T. The internal branching of haplogroup A1-V161 into A1a-M31, A1b1, and BT (A1b2) may have occurred about 110,000 years ago. A0-P305 is found at low frequency in Central and West Africa. A1a-M31 is observed in northwestern Africans; A1b1a-M14 is seen among click language-speaking Khoisan populations. A1b1b-M32 has a wide distribution including Khoisan speaking and East African populations, and scattered members on the Arabian Peninsula.


quote:
Y-DNA haplogroup B, like Y-DNA haplogroup A, is seen only in Africa and is scattered widely, but thinly across the continent. B is thought to have arisen approximately 50,000 years ago. These haplogroups have higher frequencies among hunter-gather groups in Ethiopia and Sudan, and are also seen among click language-speaking populations. The patchy, widespread distribution of these haplogroups may mean that they are remnants of ancient lineages that once had a much wider range but have been largely displaced by more recent population events.

Some geographic structuring is seen between the sub-groups B2a (B-M150) and B2b (B-M112). Sub-group B2b is seen among Central African Pygmies and South African Khoisan. Sub-group B2a is seen among Cameroonians, East Africans, and among South African Bantu speakers. B2a1a (B-M109) is the most commonly seen sub-group of B2a. About 2.3% of African-Americans belong to haplogroup B - with 1.5% of them belonging to the sub-group B2a1a.

--Y-DNA Haplogroup B and its Subclades - 2013
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpB.html


quote:
Y-DNA haplogroup F is the parent of all Y-DNA haplogroups G through T and contains more than 90% of the world’s population. Haplogroup F was in the original migration out of Africa, or else it was founded soon afterward, because F and its sub-haplogroups are primarily found outside, with very few inside, sub-Saharan Africa. The founder of F could have lived between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago, depending on the time of the out-of-Africa migration.

The major sub-groups of Haplogroup F are Haplogroups G, H, [IJ], and K, which are discussed elsewhere at this site. The minor sub-groups, F*, F1, and F2 have not been well studied, but apparently occur only infrequently and primarily in the Indian subcontinent. F* has been observed in two individuals in Portugal, possibly representing a remnant of 15th and 16th century contact of Portugal with India.

--Y-DNA Haplogroup F and its Subclades - 2013
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpF.html


quote:
The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1).
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711001649
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Son of Ra
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Good post Troll Patrol.
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xyyman
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bait me?! He! He! Ha! Ha! Ha! YaaaaaWn!
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Clyde Winters
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The dating of the haplogroups denies any possibility for the existence of any European or Asian genes. We can not avoid the fact that these populations did not exist prior to 3000 BC.

This means that Africans were the first to carry these genes and therefore there are no European genes.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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xyyman
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DJ...the plant. He! He! He!

Where did YOU come from? Ha! why don't you posting in the comical threads?

You know..the ones with picture spamming.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

which haplogroups are European?

xyyman and Clyde say there aren't any.

And since when have you taken anything xyman and Clyde says seriously?? Answer: You haven't

This thread is nothing more than a bait for them. If you want to argue against them, then so be it but don't try to drag the rest of us into it. [Embarrassed]


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xyyman
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Still don't understand how it works,, do you? That is the problems with racialist.


There is difference between genes polymorphism(SNP) and gene expression ie phenotype. There may be a few SNP that are unique to non-Africans ..at maybe K-12. Put up that SNP chart again. You will see at the basic level ......there are no Asian or European SNP.

But since we are a visual animal ..we process things through color and shapes. All eye skin color, shape of nose, lips, head etc is found IN Africa.

ALL of it originated IN Africa. ALL of it!!!!

Prove me wrong...anyone.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:


So...no genes, if any, are unique to Europe!!!! euroepans are a sub-set of Africans.

also what about Asians, Amerinidans and Oceanic people, respectively?

is there such thing as a non-African haplogroup? Is there an example of one? [/QB]


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xyyman
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As usual. You missed it. sub-sub-sub clade of R1b is an example. S116.

mtDNA hg-H will probably a similar structure when they finally get around to it. Older H being older in North Africa while younger hg-H in Europe.

we will see.......

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Chirp! Chirp! Good!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Hey. TP. Recently realize you are Ish Gebor. You disappeared for awhile back in the day. You were one of those that got me hooked. Others like Rasol regardless of our run ins. Lion of the Nile etc. Others. Quality of work from Lion has dropped somewhat. Joe Ngowa was great also. Mike' s style reminds of him.

Anyways keep it up.

I was never sure about Evergreen.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

DJ...the plant. He! He! He!

Where did YOU come from? Ha! why don't you posting in the comical threads?

You know..the ones with picture spamming.

Maybe I should since your scientifically illiterate ignorant-ass could only begin to hardly understand something unless there are pictures involved. [Roll Eyes]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

Clearly the lioness is only looking to bait Clyde and xyyman. But I just want to point forward a semantic precision.

Technically, every haplogroups currently in Europe, Africa, Asia are European, African and Asian haplogroups respectively.

When we say, european haplogroups, we mean haplogroup which originate in Europe. So that means, haplogroup where their first ancestor, the one who developed first the mutation now at the foundation of the haplogroup, originated in Europe. Same thing for other continents of course.

We know that biologists always have some difficulty to pin-point the exact location of the origin of every haplogroups. Usually they try to combine frequency and diversity of haplogroups in modern people to pin point the most likely location of their origin and other similar technique.

If we consider ancient history only, as we often do on this site focused on Ancient Egypt; This is the most mainstream way to see Y-DNA haplogroups origin:

 -

Basically A, B and E haplogroups are Africans. While D, C and F are non-African haplogroups. For MTDNA, L and M1 (possibly) are considered Africans and other hg non-Africans.

Then there's the question of more recent back migration/inter continental migration of people. People for example, from the R haplogroup in Africa and the E haplogroup in Europe. As I demonstrated in another thread, some R descendant in Cameroon can be almost 99% African on their whole genome even if they still carry one "foreign" haplogroup. This is because, haplogroups is only a one direct line of descent and are not recombining, which are practical to study population structure, while people are in reality composed of different ancestry on their whole genome.

Ultimately, all Africans and humans in general are a complex mix of genes and haplogroups. Which becomes more apparent when we analyse mtDNA (probably due to patrilocality and exogamy) and autosomal/recombining DNA (even if regional and geographic structuring still exist).

One small correction. 'Europe' is technically a subcontinent of Asia and is NOT a separate continent unto itself as the Eurocentric ideology proclaims. Thus it is no surprise that a bulk of the upstream ancestral clades of Europe actually originate just outside of the region in Central Asia or Southwest Asia. Recall the 'mysterious' origins of certain prominent mitochondrial clades in Western Europe here and here.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
One small correction. 'Europe' is technically a subcontinent of Asia and is NOT a separate continent unto itself as the Eurocentric ideology proclaims. Thus it is no surprise that a bulk of the upstream ancestral clades of Europe actually originate just outside of the region in Central Asia or Southwest Asia. Recall the 'mysterious' origins of certain prominent mitochondrial clades in Western Europe here and here.

You can call Europe the Russian peninsula it doesn't change anything. Most of Europeans ancestry do come from West Asia, before that probably India or just around it, then before that Africa, of course, like all humans. It doesn't mean they didn't have new mutations, thus haplogroups, since then, since their ancestors arrived to the European territory, that allow to differentiate modern European people from modern West Asian and modern African people. It's basic logic.

Same thing for Africans between one another. I like to say that African groups are close to each other genetically. Which is true of course, since there's been a lot of admixture between them as explained in the other thread. There's a cultural but also genetic unity. But there's still way to differentiate African ethnic groups between one another (if you ignore other groups below beside the blue groupings).

If people look at this graph for example:
 -

We can see both the close genetic distance between lets say African people or European within their regions respectively. Between one another. For example, Yoruba, Bantu, Mandenka, Mbuti, San are distinct to each others but at the same time close genetically to each others. And the relative high genetic distance between those the African grouping with the West Eurasian Grouping and the America groupings . Like between the African groupings in blue and the West Eurasia grouping in green. Do you understand the graph? I think it's easy to understand.

Denying that is just denying basic logic.

Native Americans are the furthest from all the other groups because they went through multiple bottleneck effect which reduced their diversity of genes and then, as any people on earth, gained new mutations through time in America.

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the lioness,
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Amerindians and Oceanic people are at a greater genetic distance to Africans than are Europeans

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
 -

I'm looking at this chart Chinese, South + East India and North West European are at close positions
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Amerindians and Oceanic people are at a greater genetic distance to Africans than are Europeans

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
 -


As I said above, it's because they went through multiple bottleneck effect. From history we know of at least 2 bottleneck effect.

When humans left Africa in a small groups. Thus reducing their diversity of genes. Then again when they went through Alaska and reduced their genetic diversity once again.

Obviously since that time they gained new mutations and thus haplogroups (and automomal SNPs,STR allele, etc). Every human is born with about 60-100 new mutations (SNPs) which can always potentially become a new haplogroup, if there's enough descendants (in term of percentage of the whole population).

That's why Africa got the greatest haplogroups and nucleotides diversity among all the world population. Then didn't went through the same level of bottleneck effect than other groups. So they didn't "lose" much haplogroups, STR alleles, and autosomal SNPs along the way. Africans share the same high diversity of genes (due to common "recent" origin and constant admixture between African people).

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm looking at this chart Chinese, South + East India and North West European are at close positions [/QB]

It's all relative I guess. We can see both the differentiation between East Asian people and Caucasian people and their closeness when they left Africa to form the Eurasian sub groupings. For example, in the DNA tribes tree, East Europeans are relatively genetically close to West Europeans but both those groups seem relatively far from Chinese. Not as far as Africans and Native Americans of course, but there's still a good differentiation.

This as I said in the other thread all related to the percentage of genes in the population (due to bottleneck effects and new mutations). In reality, the genetic distance between individuals within a population like within Africans or within West Europeans is similar than between individuals between different populations. Populations share the same diversity of genes. Since they share the same diversity of genes, we can determine regional sub-groupings. There's also admixtures between all humans which complicate the issue of finding populations sub-structure.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm looking at this chart Chinese, South + East India and North West European are at close positions

For example, in the DNA tribes tree, East Europeans are relatively genetically close to West Europeans but both those groups seem relatively far from Chinese.

No, on this chart the Chinese are not relatively far from the Europeans. They are close. The scale is at left, Y axis only.
They are close to Northwest Europeans and Mediterraneans and even closer to East Euroepans
The Chinese on this chart are much closer to Europeans of any type than they are to Japanese


 -

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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--
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
No, on this chart the Chinese are not relatively far from the Europeans. They are close. The scale is at left, Y axis only.
They are close to Northwest Europeans and Mediterraneans and even closer to East Euroepans
The Chinese on this chart are much closer to Europeans of any type than they are to Japanese

You're mistaken, the distance between the Japanese and Chinese populations is much smaller than between the Chinese and Northwest Europeans populations for example. As you say, you must measure the distance on the Y-axis, not the X, horizontal axis.

I posted another similar graph above with the populations bubbles of different colors (SNP graph).

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
No, on this chart the Chinese are not relatively far from the Europeans. They are close. The scale is at left, Y axis only.
They are close to Northwest Europeans and Mediterraneans and even closer to East Euroepans
The Chinese on this chart are much closer to Europeans of any type than they are to Japanese

You're mistaken, the distance between the Japanese and Chinese populations is much smaller than between the Chinese and Northwest Europeans populations for example. As you say, you must measure the distance on the Y-axis, not the X, horizontal axis.

I posted another similar graph above with the populations bubbles of different colors (SNP graph).

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^^ That's not how you measure distance on such trees. You must measure it from one node (or leaves) to another. As if the tree was roads you were walking on.

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For example to measure the distance between Chinese and Northwest Europeans, starting with Chinese, you must go up through the node labelled "East Asian" in red, then the node labelled "Eurasian" in red, then go down through the node labelled Caucasian and then Europeans (all in red). All this while keeping tab of the Y-axis distance you went through.

It's logical of course, since we know Chinese are much closer genetically (and culturally/historically for that matter) to Japanese than to Northwest Europeans. The other graph I posted above with the colored populations bubbles shows the same thing.

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the lioness,
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I'm going to take your word that you are reading the chart properly and my reading was wrong
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xyyman
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I see you are old school...Caucasians. When I use the word I am messing around.


quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm looking at this chart Chinese, South + East India and North West European are at close positions

It's all relative I guess. We can see both the differentiation between East Asian people and Caucasian people and their closeness when they left Africa to form the Eurasian sub groupings. For example, in the DNA tribes tree, East Europeans are relatively genetically close to West Europeans but both those groups seem relatively far from Chinese. Not as far as Africans and Native Americans of course, but there's still a good differentiation.

This as I said in the other thread all related to the percentage of genes in the population (due to bottleneck effects and new mutations). In reality, the genetic distance between individuals within a population like within Africans or within West Europeans is similar than between individuals between different populations. Populations share the same diversity of genes. Since they share the same diversity of genes, we can determine regional sub-groupings. There's also admixtures between all humans which complicate the issue of finding populations sub-structure. [/QB]


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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I see you are old school...Caucasians. When I use the word I am messing around.


quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm looking at this chart Chinese, South + East India and North West European are at close positions

It's all relative I guess. We can see both the differentiation between East Asian people and Caucasian people and their closeness when they left Africa to form the Eurasian sub groupings. For example, in the DNA tribes tree, East Europeans are relatively genetically close to West Europeans but both those groups seem relatively far from Chinese. Not as far as Africans and Native Americans of course, but there's still a good differentiation.

This as I said in the other thread all related to the percentage of genes in the population (due to bottleneck effects and new mutations). In reality, the genetic distance between individuals within a population like within Africans or within West Europeans is similar than between individuals between different populations. Populations share the same diversity of genes. Since they share the same diversity of genes, we can determine regional sub-groupings. There's also admixtures between all humans which complicate the issue of finding populations sub-structure.

[/QB]
I'm referring to the tree of course. The nodes labels in red.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^ That's not how you measure distance on such trees. You must measure it from one node (or leaves) to another. As if the tree was roads you were walking on.

 -

For example to measure the distance between Chinese and Northwest Europeans, starting with Chinese, you must go up through the node labelled "East Asian" in red, then the node labelled "Eurasian" in red, then go down through the node labelled Caucasian and then Europeans (all in red). All this while keeping tab of the Y-axis distance you went through.

It's logical of course, since we know Chinese are much closer genetically (and culturally/historically for that matter) to Japanese than to Northwest Europeans. The other graph I posted above with the colored populations bubbles shows the same thing.

according to this chart who is closer genetically to a Tropical West African,
A Finnic or North African?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^ That's not how you measure distance on such trees. You must measure it from one node (or leaves) to another. As if the tree was roads you were walking on.

 -

For example to measure the distance between Chinese and Northwest Europeans, starting with Chinese, you must go up through the node labelled "East Asian" in red, then the node labelled "Eurasian" in red, then go down through the node labelled Caucasian and then Europeans (all in red). All this while keeping tab of the Y-axis distance you went through.

It's logical of course, since we know Chinese are much closer genetically (and culturally/historically for that matter) to Japanese than to Northwest Europeans. The other graph I posted above with the colored populations bubbles shows the same thing.

according to this chart who is closer genetically to a Tropical West African,
A Finnic or North African?

X Y = A North African.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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