posted
Creating this topic, because I don't believe there has been one made on here. Researched through the archive.
I think this is an interesting topic we should talk about in depth. Saw a similar topic on another site. I doubt the Egyptians would know how to make iron and so they would have had to import it. Though from where exactly? Most people in the field of Egyptology say Egypt only used bronze due to no civilizations using iron at the time. Yet they forget about about other parts of Africa like Central and West.
Now why would the Egyptians use iron? When they viewed it as evil. Which is why they and Nubia never really developed an iron industry until very late. If I remember correctly they would need Iron for cutting certain stones for the pyramids.
quote:"...Franz Löhner doesn't allege, that the ancient Egyptians already knew the difficult and elaborate procedure of making wrought iron - but, that they acquired the valuable iron by trading. The Egyptian smiths then made tools from this iron or at least were able to maintain temper and sharpen) the tools acquired...
...1.Sawing granite with copper saws: First I experimented with copper saws made from copper sheets of different thickness. I used soft, half soft and hardened copper sheets and made saw blades with different teeth (wavy, small teeth, large teeth). Then I tried to saw granite, it didn't work, the copper deformed. As an abrading medium I added quartz sand, then Corundum (a gem with a hardness on Mohs scale of 9) and even steel sand (made from steel grit and used to cut through concrete). But even after hours of work barley a scratch was visible on the surface of the granite block. In the same time and with the same effort I surely would have managed to split two or three blocks of granite if using the appropriate tools, ergo iron tools!"
^^^So we know bronze/copper wasn't good enough for cutting the type of stone the Egyptians used, but again where did they purchase it from?
quote:"It is suggested that these facts support the theory that it is from Africa that iron first came into use. The finding of worked iron in the Great Pyramids seems to corroborate this view. The metal, however, is singularly scarce in collections of Egyptian antiquities. The explanation of this would seem to lie in the fact that the relics are in most cases the paraphernalia of tombs, the funereal vessels and vases, and iron being considered an impure metal by the ancient Egyptians it was never used in their manufacture of these or for any religious purposes. This idea of impurity would seem a further proof of the African origin of iron. It was attributed to Seth, the spirit of evil who according to Egyptian tradition governed the central deserts of Africa."
quote:"Around the same time some Egyptologists, notably the Frenchman Gaston Maspéro, concluded that ancient Egypt had learned its ironworking from black Africans to the south."
quote:"This paper presents new evidence from North-Central Africa, in the Djohong area in the Cameroons, and Ndio area in the Central African Republic, both situated in the northeastern part of the Adamawa Plateau. Iron production activities are documented to have taken place as early as 3000–2500 BC"
In regards to the Nile Valley, we know that Meroitic Nubia was a major source of iron manufacturing, though traditionally it was assumed they adopted this from Asiatics. I'm not at all surprised if they actually adopted it from other Africans further west. Even the Nok Culture of West Africa tends to be given conservative dates of the 1st millennium BCE by academia which is usually the case with so-called 'Sub-Saharan' cultures per Eurocentric doctrine #6 IF IT WAS GREAT, IT MUST HAVE BEEN WHITE. So no surprise that more evidence shows the culture to be much older than previously thought (by the Euronuts). Great info by the way. I don't think I've seen those sources before.
Many scholars when dealing with iron industry in Africa often focus on proto-Bantu yet obviously the industry predates even proto-Bantu by centuries.
As for Meroitic Nubia being the source of iron manufacturing, didn't the people of Nubia have the same views of Iron as the Ancient Egyptians? Meaning they thought iron was evil? I thought Nubia developed iron very late?
As for Africans further west. There's a really good Youtuber named "davidcici11Evolution" who has believes that during pre-dynastic EGypt when the Sahare was wet, that there was this big culture in the Sahara stretching from Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Algeria, Niger, Chad, Mali. So isn it possible that the ancestors of the Nok or the Nok themselves taught the Egyptians about Iron? Who knows?
And yeah I too agree that the Iron industry definitely pre-dates the Bantu. I mean wasn't Iron already said to be produced in the West African urban settlement known as Tichit Walata? Which I believe was said to be around 3,000 BC.
And I'll check out that thread about Kush. looks interesting.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ Actually the topic of iron in Africa was discussed in these past threads:
. People don't realize ES is a resource more robust than any stagnant one man production biased website.
There's not a topic of interest that one can't find via a simple GOOGLE search like site:egyptsearch.com key1 key2 key...
What to do?
PS not only ES but ESR and TNV too!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
I meant that no one posted a thread hinting that the Egyptians imported iron from the interior of Africa. I already seen topics of iron in Africa on this site though.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
"Now why would the Egyptians use iron?"
It's not for us to try to guess why. They used it. Near the cap of the Great Pyramid a tool made from meteoric iron was found.
2000 years later Meroe produced so much terrestial iron that one Euro Nubianologist, Arkell, dubbed it the Birmingham of Africa. Production methods indicate Meroe neither imported nor exported the technology from central or west Sahelien Africa. Africa's east or its central heartland? I don't know enough to say yea or nay.
For me, YouTube is not the place to gatherfacts. The easy accessibility to publish a video there means that any unlearned body can do what a book publisher would reject but an adoring, but equally unlearned, audience will accept.
"I mean wasn't Iron already said to be produced in the West African urban settlement known as Tichit Walata? Which I believe was said to be around 3,000 BC."
Iron, Tichit, 3000 BCE? ROTFLMAO! Somebody pick me up off the floor.
The Iron roads in Africa: Iron metallurgy in Africa from the third millennium to the fifth century B.C. unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0012/001202/120220eo.pdf
EDIT: Grrrr! imageshack has rescinded free account photos gimme time to dredge up that unesdoc timeline please.
EDIT2: OK found it and put it in place but fair warning to all, better save any images you really like 'cos tomorrow they may be gone!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Who the hell said YT was a place to gather facts? I only said for DJ to check out the video(since the Youtuber cites sources). Also your view of Youtube could be said about here. Any laymen can post sources on a discussion board, that academia would reject. And I don't know why you have such a cocky attitude. I read something about Tichit being around 3,000 BC or somewhere around that period. I think this article. Between 4000 BC and 1000 BC: At Tichitt-Walata—"Before 2000 BC, what is today the southern Sahara was inhabited by significant numbers of herders and farmers. On the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Walata (Birou) and Tagant Plateaus in modern day Mauritania,they built what are considered among the earliest known civilizations in western Africa. Composed of more than 400 stone masonry settlements, with clear street layouts, some settlements had massive surrounding walls while others were less fortified. In a deteriorating environment, where arable land and pasturage were at a premium, the population grew and relatively large-scale political organizations emerged - factors which no doubt explain the homogeneity of architecture, settlement patterns, and material culture (e.g., lithic and ceramic traditions). This agro-pastoral society traded in jewelry and semi-precious stones from distant parts of the Sahara and Sahel, while crafts, hunting, and fishing were also important economic pursuits...Their elites built funerary monuments for themselves over a period extending from 4000 to 1000 BC." [sources: see Ray A. Kea, and Mauny, R.(1971),“The Western Sudan” in Shinnie: 66-87. Monteil, Charles (1953),“La Légende du Ouagadou et l’Origine des Soninke” in Mélanges Ethnologiques (Dakar: Bulletin del’Institut Francais del’Afrique Noir)]
Wouldn't Tichit have an iron industry around that period?? Especially since it was said to be a sophisticated civilization?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Then why cite a YouTuber?
Here, the best of us fully cite our references for any and all to check out.
Did you check out the sources given out here in the past as linked in my post? No. A lot of your surmises are dealt with there.
Don't gripe about it. Post us references about Tichitt iron in 3000 BCE.
I'm not standing by and letting the youth and others swallow a lot of hog swill about Africa that will turn them off about it's history, cultures, and civilizations once they find out that weak stuff is just a pack of feel good lies and thus come to believe there is no academically accepted truth to African Studies etc.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Then why cite a YouTuber?
I wasn't citing him for for my own gain. I said a Youtuber has a theory of a large Saharan culture when the Sahara was wet, since DJ said, "I'm not at all surprised if they actually adopted it from other Africans further west." I posted the video to him because a Youtuber has a similar view.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Just stop it.
You're not PMing DJ You're addressing ES.
Give us some solid source backed facts, please, not unsubstantiable fantasies.
If what I post on this thread is bothering you then why continue to post on this thread?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You're not PMing DJ
Why do I need to PM DJ???
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You're addressing ES.
Give us some solid source backed facts, please, not unsubstantiable fantasies.
OK?
Elaborate on the "fantasies" that I'm giving.
None of the sources I posted was psuedo-historic/science. None of the things I said was extreme. So I don't get your case. This thread is about, "Did the Ancient Egyptians import iron from the interior of Africa?" I posted material that wasn't "unsubstantial fantasies", backing up the theory.
So whats your problem?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
"I don't know why you have such a cocky attitude."
Hal Pulaaren are not noted as being nice. Hal Pulaaren are known to be contentious, not liked by either Berber or Black.
It's not about my 'tude or any other thing but the Africana not personalities.
"So whats your problem?"
Notice I haven't said a thing about your personality just the subject matter you post. Now if your ego is bound up in that then too bad for you.
Really, imo, your posts are more for ESR or even the AE forum more so than E. On ES Egyptology we rip sloppy "scholarship" apart.
And when I'm in error feel free to rip me a new anal orifice too. Many here have done it.
If you don't want me tearing into what I find in error in what you post then post to Ancient Egypt forum where I won't touch it. And if you keep talking about me instead of addressing the points I brought up I will move this thread to AE where you'll find it safe from dissection.
So please, take a walk, calm down, then come back and dispassionately reread what I wrote and one by one get back to me.
PS did I have a 'tude and was I cocky when I praised your immaculate scholarly research on Melanosyrii?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
"Even with modern tools—stone chisels and diamond wheels—we would have a tough time doing such fine work in granite," says Hopkins.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I beg you to follow and study, not read, the links I gave.
You will see there many of the things you are pondering.
Please especially read the Diop-Maes article in the ESR archive. It's not complete. The full but not formatted version is on TNV.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
^I actually already read through the through thread. A lot of good stuff. Some I never knew. I can't read the Diop-Maes article right now, but I bookmarked it. Going to read it after I come home from college.
I like this source that you posted.
quote:'Iron ore use, contrary to the use of meteoritic iron was affirmed to have existed 2 600 BC in Egypt, by several soft iron samples [44]; we have never come to the conclusions of such an important discovery. However, cast-iron using an alloy of iron and carbon containing approximately 6% carbon; makes it brittle. Soft iron, or pure, is theoretically void of carbon, which explains its malleability. We go from cast-iron to soft iron by progressive extraction of carbon from the special alloy in the casting process; during this process of reducing the carbon content, we go from all intermediary concentrations of carbon in the iron, corresponding to the different varieties of cast-iron, to steel: steel is but an alloy of iron and a carbon content of less than 0,85%' [45].
Again good job. Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Are you in college or university.
I want to put you to work acquiring full book PDFs from Hathi Trust that non-students can only download page by page (man what a draggggggggg).
posted
Its just a regular two year college sadly. Nothing special. But clicked on the link and everything looks really interesting. Thanks! But again I only go to a two year(still very young) and so my college wasn't listed.
But I really dont mind downloading page by page.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Thanks! But again I only go to a two year(still very young) and so my college wasn't listed. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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