In a study published in Nature1 last week, a large international team, including contributors from Oman and Morocco, sequenced the ancient genomes of a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Germany, and eight ~8,000-year-old hunter-gatherers from Sweden and Luxembourg, and compared them to 2,345 contemporary European genomes. The patterns of SNPs—single base variations between the genomes—were used to trace back the ancestry of modern-day Europeans, and propose a new model of prehistoric European population dynamics.
The results indicate that, contrary to previous thought, farming was not introduced into Europe by immigrants from the Near East who replaced native Europeans, but rather that native Europeans had already intermixed with the Eurasian immigrants before their arrival in central Europe.
This provides new insight into the origin of farming in Europe, and shows that present-day Europeans originate from an ancestral mix of three distinct populations; west European hunter-gatherer, early European farmer (a mix of indigenous Europeans and near Eastern immigrants) and ancient north Eurasian – an older Eurasian population that split before the emergence of the early European farmer.
posted
I always entertained the idea of Europe being similar to India as it was populated by different waves who people during different time periods. "Modern" Europeans are said to not be descendants of more Ancient Europeans, not even during the mid-early neolithic. Of course I'm not saying anything new.
Many studies say the same thing as the one you posted.
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Tukuler
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Iosif Lazaridis et al Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Nature 513, 409–413 (18 September 2014)
We sequenced the genomes of a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Germany and eight ~8,000-year-old hunter-gatherers from Luxembourg and Sweden. We analysed these and other ancient genomes1, 2, 3, 4 with 2,345 contemporary humans to show that most present-day Europeans derive from at least three highly differentiated populations: west European hunter-gatherers, who contributed ancestry to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners; ancient north Eurasians related to Upper Palaeolithic Siberians3, who contributed to both Europeans and Near Easterners; and early European farmers, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harboured west European hunter-gatherer related ancestry. We model these populations’ deep relationships and show that early European farmers had ~44% ancestry from a ‘basal Eurasian’ population that split before the diversification of other non-African lineages.
posted
A recent study based on mitochondrial dna haplogroup H show that ancient Europeans mysteriously disappeared,it was extensively discussed on EgyptSearch.
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quote:Originally posted by Ponsford: A recent study based on mitochondrial dna haplogroup H show that ancient Europeans mysteriously disappeared,it was extensively discussed on EgyptSearch.
quote:Originally posted by Ponsford: A recent study based on mitochondrial dna haplogroup H show that ancient Europeans mysteriously disappeared,it was extensively discussed on EgyptSearch.
Current articles of the past couple years on early Europeans may not all neatly dovetail with each other. They are theoretical
the article you mention Modern Europe's Genetic History Starts in Stone Age describes different waves if migration into Europe, each one replacing the other "a huge populaltion turnover" ( A similar article: Ancient Europeans Mysteriously Vanished 4,500 Years Ago www.livescience.com/28954-ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished.html Apr 23, 2013 .
This contradictcs Lazaridis et al> Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans
The aforementioned Europeans Mysteriously Vanished article is based on
Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans
^^ will the moderator kindly delete the giant space scene spam on it thanks.
Lazaridis' basal Eurasian and Brotherton's vanishing have been mentioned a lot on other threads
However I think the angle that has not been discussued is the apparent contradictory conclusions between these articles
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In a study published in Nature1 last week, a large international team, including contributors from Oman and Morocco, sequenced the ancient genomes of a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Germany, and eight ~8,000-year-old hunter-gatherers from Sweden and Luxembourg, and compared them to 2,345 contemporary European genomes. The patterns of SNPs—single base variations between the genomes—were used to trace back the ancestry of modern-day Europeans, and propose a new model of prehistoric European population dynamics.
The results indicate that, contrary to previous thought, farming was not introduced into Europe by immigrants from the Near East who replaced native Europeans, but rather that native Europeans had already intermixed with the Eurasian immigrants before their arrival in central Europe.
This provides new insight into the origin of farming in Europe, and shows that present-day Europeans originate from an ancestral mix of three distinct populations; west European hunter-gatherer, early European farmer (a mix of indigenous Europeans and near Eastern immigrants) and ancient north Eurasian – an older Eurasian population that split before the emergence of the early European farmer.
Interesting findings that show the genetic diversity of Europeans. Of course the authors of these findings don't in any way seek to split or divide modern Europeans as 'true whites' vs. fake whites(?). Yet I would think that a certain ultimate nutcase would say so if he was focused on the unity of Europeans as he is Africans. LOLPosts: 26241 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^Do you think Greeks are the "fake" whites since they show more genetic distance towards NE Africans compared to other Europeans?
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We caution, however, that copy count in Loschbour is at the high end of present-day humans, showing that high copy counts of AMY1 cannot be accounted for entirely by selection since the switch to agriculture. Both Loschbour
--- agriculture. We compared the ancient genomes to 2,345 present-day humans from 203 populations genotyped at 594,924 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)with the Human Origins array8 (Supplementary Information section 9) (Extended Data Table 1). We used ADMIXTURE13 to identify
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
As I said – I don’t have time to argue K2= Cluster, Oh!=Kluster=German. Lol!
Here is what I spend my time on. From your study…
Quote --- We carried out large-scale sequencing of libraries prepared with uracil DNAglycosylase (UDG),which removes deaminated cytosines, thus reducing errors arising from ancient DNA damage (Supplementary Information section 3). The ancient individuals had indistinguishable levels of Neanderthal ancestry when compared to each other (,2%) and to present-day Eurasians (Supplementary Information section6).The heterozygosity of Stuttgart (0.00074) is at the high end of present-day Europeans, whereas that of Loschbour (0.00048) is lower than in any present human populations (Supplementary Information section 2); this must
----
Significance – and more importantly, why is that so important to be looked at and discussed?
Anyone!!!!????
. Tic! Toc!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^Do you think Greeks are the "fake" whites since they show more genetic distance towards NE Africans compared to other Europeans?
Of course not! That's because I don't subscribe to such ridiculous notions of 'race' to begin with. Greeks by physical appearance are obviously 'white' despite whatever recent African ancestry they have. My entire post by the way was in reference to AmunRa (AmaNut) the Ultimate who falsely accuses me and others of trying to 'divide' Africans and perpetuating 'Hamitic race' fallacies just because we acknowledge the FACT that African populations show genetic diversity via different clades and lineages as well.
The very science of genetics has thoroughly disproved the very existence of racial groups yet this hasn't stopped folks (mostly Eurocentrics but even some Afrocentrics as well) from corrupting or distorting the science to perpetuate their racial agendas.
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^Do you think Greeks are the "fake" whites since they show more genetic distance towards NE Africans compared to other Europeans?
Of course not! That's because I don't subscribe to such ridiculous notions of 'race' to begin with. Greeks by physical appearance are obviously 'white' despite whatever recent African ancestry they have. My entire post by the way was in reference to AmunRa (AmaNut) the Ultimate who falsely accuses me and others of trying to 'divide' Africans and perpetuating 'Hamitic race' fallacies just because we acknowledge the FACT that African populations show genetic diversity via different clades and lineages as well.
The very science of genetics has thoroughly disproved the very existence of racial groups yet this hasn't stopped folks (mostly Eurocentrics but even some Afrocentrics as well) from corrupting or distorting the science to perpetuate their racial agendas.
Indeed. I know race does not exist biologically. Notice I emphasized "race". What I meant was that Eurocentrics like to say East Africans are not "true Africans" due to showing the most genetic closeness to Eurasians in terms if genetic distances. Meanwhile Greeks show more genetic distance to Africans compared to other Europeans. I wasn't saying Greeks were actually "fake whites", I know they are European. I was just using Eurocentric tactic's against them. I was agreeing with you.
Anyways Greeks showing more genetic closeness to Africans via genetic distance I got from this study by Arnaiz-Villena, which is quite old.
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posted
^ The whole Villena study on Greek HLA has been beaten to death multiple times in this forum..
..that and
Y chromosome E1b1b
and
Benin HBS (sickle cell) Posts: 26241 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The whole Villena study on Greek HLA has been beaten to death multiple times in this forum..
. And I'll tell you what pisses me off about that to no end. The admins cut the threads where I went into it with Supercar/the Explorer and later with Zarahan over the validity of A-V's reports re Greek:some Africans on one HLA locus.
Unless somebody else can find them.
This was done recently as I saved those threads just two years ago.
Admin's got me seriously miffed. I mean here we at E & AE kept this place alive. Then when we spike usage what do they do? They reopen the defunct fora and skim data from us to make room for them.
I'm not going to work hard at modding when the admin/owner gets the financial advantage, and won't even give me the courtesy of correspondance less lone input.
I surmise their plan is to screw us royally once the other fora pick up some users. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Don't hold your breath.....or blow a blood vessel
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Don't blow a blood vessel
Too late!
A lot of work and research went into those threads as well as the one Clyde talked about where we into the Fulani Zebu.
Of course now I save the good pages of good threads and back up the back up too (lost mucho lotto stuff when my former backup broke). But still why dust us for inactive fora? Just don't make no sense just like your prejudice is senseless.
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I will not tolerate prejudice bigotry and stereotyping in this the Egyptology forum and since you want to try me notice your posts are outtasight -- they gone!
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Here's an old post copy below. If I remember it was rightly said that HLA is NOT definitive on the subject, and using it to claim Greeks as "black" or African is shaky ground. If I remember someone said back (you?) then that HLA had its limits as far as population affinity studies. This is no doubt true. SO HLA is not an infallible last word on the subject, but part of a package, another confirming line of evidence as to Greek-African links, not a sweeping claim of Greek-African identity. And if Africans are labeled as "mixed" likewise Greeks too are "mixed" at some level. Even, steven..
NOTE- The Greek example above must be qualified. Bear in mind, no one is claiming ALL Greeks are African or came from Africa. More modern Greeks would not have the identical mix as ancient Greeks. Other studies do not show identical results to HLA gene data. There are differences, but the main idea is to show that there is some relatedness between Greeks and Africans. WHy then aren't many running around talking about Greeks being "mixed"? This double standard is the central point. Here is a roundup from an old ES Post: (keep the double standard in mind). -------------------------------------------------
1-- Certain Greek samples using HLA gene data cluster with Africans. This pattern does not mean all Greeks are identical to Africans or "come from Africa." The data is in: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127
Villena has attracted controversy because various data on Greeks-Macedonians- Africans it seemed to genetically link Jews and Palestinians more closely than seemed politic. This info was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Some use this to claim that the Greek data above was "withdrawn." False. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it, and are a separate dispute.
Bear in mind that while HLA has its limitations it is used by other scholars in DNA affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies) for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited? Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples.
2-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations. Note we are talking Greeks and Africans.
3-- It is true that the data being used is highly variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese and south African blacks grouping together in relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.
4-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
5-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
6-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, africans again having a wde range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic... It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
-------------------------------
7.. ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS
QUOTE: "Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or (III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes). SPecifically, Europeans contain the E3b subhaplogroup, which was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa.. It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."
--T. Frudakis. 2006. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA Well according to genetic analyses the Greeks are close to 1/4th black carrying 23% African paternal lineages.
Critique of critique of HLA studies. The "critique" made by some is to proffer shaky strawmen made by alleged "Afrocentrists" that can then be "refuted." BUt no credible observer claims that all Greeks are Africans. We all know that Greeks are primarily European, just as Ethiopians are primarily African. The only point at issue is that there is clearly documented gene mix and cultural flow between Greece and Africa from ancient times. HLA studies are ONE link in that documented chain of evidence. And if "mixed race" models are to be deployed to describe African diversity, then their use is likewise justified in describing EUropean diversity as "mixed race." Eurocentrics no longer get' to play the standard hypocritical one-way labeling game.
VARIOUS OBJECTIONS
The minimization ploy- Cystic fibrosis The cystic fibrosis finding is admitted but minimized with dubious sleight of hand. Objectors and their supporters hold that Dörk et al. did find an African-type of cystic fibrosis mutation in Greeks, however this mutation was extremely rare; it was detected only in three Greek families. WHat they conveniently leave out is that the Greek families were part of a batch of 17 samples under detailed analysis. 3 out of 17 is approx 18%, but they attempt to make it appear as if it is only 3 families out of all of Greece where the cystic fibrosis mutation occurs. See Dork ref. Dörk T, El-Harith EH, Stuhrmann M, et al. (August 1998). "Evidence for a common ethnic origin of cystic fibrosis mutation 3120+1G-->A in diverse populations". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63
The mysteriously missing African samples to "refute" Objectors and their servitors then tout a 2000 study by Richards that found "very little" African gene flow in Greece, but in fact, Richards's study specifically EXCLUDED African samples. Objectors and their supporters further proffer Maaspina 2000 as another example, saying that the "only African" DNA trace in a Greek sample was hg "A" at less than 1%. The only thing that they conveniently forget to tell the reader is that the African samples were mostly Arabized types from Egypt, not sub-Saharan Africa, crucially East Africa/Ethiopia where an apples to apples comparison could be done.
The non-sequitir "comparison" The Objectors also cite a study by A. Petlichkovski on Macedonians showing where "sub-Saharans" groups away from the Macedonians thus allegedly "contradicting" Vilenna. Again they conveniently leave out that the samples of Petlichkovski were NOT from the same area of Africa as Vilenna's Ethiopians, his main group that clustered with Greeks. The sampling was not an apples to apples comparison. INterestingly enough, Petlichkovski's study groups Egyptians with other African populations.
More "missing" Africans to "refute" The Objectors continue their sleight of hand by proferring another study by Weale 2001, but this study concerned Armenians and had NO African samples. Other claims by the Objectors attempt to use an obscure Siberian haplotype as some sort of "stand in" for Africans but indeed the studies proffered for Greek-African comparisons are notable for the ABSENCE or minor use of African samples.
The nugatory "North African" markers Semino 2004 is used by assorted objectors to argue a Medit Supreme line, alleging that the Greeks show little of the "North African marker" J-M267, essentially setting up a strawman true type to "refute." But in fact Semino's Greek samples showed significant amounts of E-M78, a haplotype itself originating in East Africa per Semino. Objectors usually fail to mention this. J-M267 is important to them however, because the Dork cystic fibrosis study found a link with Saudi populations which have much J-M267. But what Objectors and their supporters conveniently leave out is that other studies of Saudis such as Amero 2008, found almost 14% of the Saudi samples to have sub-Saharan DNA markers, confirming Dork's view of long-standing Africa-Arabia gene flow. Hence it is not merely "North African" J-M267 that could cause a link with the Greek and Africans, but long-standing African markers. The link shows up in people who are African or African influenced like Saudis or African-Americans.
Curious charts The Objectors also proffer a critique by JObling of Vilenna's sub-Saharan tracers, but Jobling did not dispute the presence of such African alleles only how they were used in creating a chart, since their origin was known before the study. But such is standard procedure in other DNA studies run by European race category proponents. Only this time, it showed the Greek- African links rather than the usual "true type" segregation format.
The "three wise men" critique- claim a part is the whole to "refute" Objectors also refer to criticism of Vilenna by "three respected geneticists" Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch. But the three men over no detailed rebuttal of Vilenna's results, only "puzzlement" over how Greeks link with Africans and how Japanese could be in the mix. They express puzzlement on how: "Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans."
But the "three sages" misrepresent Vilenna with false strawmen. Vilenna is not referring to ALL greeks but part of them, as seen in samples from the Aegean and near Athens. The "all Greeks" charge is bogus, just as the "identical Japanese" is similarly bogus. The three sages conveniently fail to mention that HLA genes, in association with certain rheumatoid arthritis MEDICAL conditions, can show similarity across several distant populations, and thus accounting for why Japanese would share certain arthritis conditions with South African San. Doesn't mean there was historic gene flow between them- this would require some archaeological evidence as well- which Greeks and Africans do have present. The similarity only shows that the gene mutations involved in the particular rheumatoid arthritis conditions may hit both peoples in a similar way. ( Rimoin and Emery 2006 Principles and practice of medical genetics).
HLA limitations
While HLA has its limitations it is used by other scholars in DNA affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies) for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited? Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
The above does not mean that there are no weaknesses in using HLA to study populations, but neither does it mean that HLA cannot be used as one of SEVERAL lines of confirmatory cross evidence on the issue of links between Africa and Greece.
Gene frequencies are sometimes touted as "racial" markers- i.e. high frequencies of certain genes in "Eurasian" areas enables the population to be labeled as "Eurasian." But the same method is, curiously, too often, suddenly not applied when African gene data is involved. Hence high frequencies of certain genes in Africa do not earn them the "African" label when there are overlaps into Europe and the so-called "Middle East". Many who speak expansively of "mixed races" in Africa suddenly maintain a mysterious silence when the concept is extended into Europe. Suddenly numerous sub-divisions, obfuscations and "qualifications" enter the labeling picture - the standard modus operandi of Euro-centric hypocrisy and double standards.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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I will not tolerate prejudice bigotry and stereotyping in this the Egyptology forum and since you want to try me notice your posts are outtasight -- they gone!
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thanks for that Zar but I miss the actual threads with all the individual back and forth by each poster representing their points and counterpoints for themselves and especially the HLA figures I posted from other geneticists than A-V and Hajjej who did nothing but restate A-V. Also the list of things I posted that strongly show Greek connections to some Africans. I succinctly showed A-V weakens the case and is unneeded and if included in the last will be latched on to pooh pooh the strong points.
When you got iron rods you don't bunch asparagus canes along with them.
I could kill Sammi! Grrrrrrr. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Yes, if I remember you noted HLA limitations and also showed it is not necessary to rely on HLA to demonstrate Greek-African cultural and genetic links.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Not to rely on one HLA locus. In the original I did show valid relations using iirc three loci at least.
I lost my homemade charts along with the threads on either a now broke PC or a portable drive.
I think the Spanish who support the Macedonians paid Sammi to axe it and GOOGLE/YAHOO/etc to not cache it (psyche!)
Maybe Arnie's got a copy. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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We also have to consider that there may be other reasons, beyond your control or influence, why the forum is dead ie lack of posters. Look at ESR They are so many more lurkers than posters.
Race is becoming less of an issue. Only the die hard fanatics still hold on to those archaic beliefs. Fanatics on BOTH sides. Black racist and white racist. Those who were sincerely interested are no longer interested.
It is a fact now AEians were an indigenous black African civilizations and modern Europeans had absolutely nothing to contribute or any connection to that civilization. The only connection, modern Europeans (Basal Eurasian) left Africa about 8-10k before the inception of AE. Albeit, modern Europeans are more African than we thought 10years ago. The Rosenberger paper made that very clear a decade ago. Lazaridis was the landmark paper that made it widely known.
You have to come up with a plan to revitalize the Forum. The current debate is in genetics but most people are clueless. Posting pictures and commenting is much easy and require less brain cells. The game has changed.
ES is not the only one.
Mathilda is dead, Many other foras like that is dead. Those that are alive are the ones with post of “superficial’ la la land stuff.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Come on Lioness. This is exactly what I am talking about above. We have gone past the stage of posting pictures to support our point of view. Here is what Lazaridis Sept 2014 says
Quote: -----……
advent of agriculture. We compared the ancient genomes to 2,345 present-day humans from 203 populations genotyped at 594,924 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)with the Human Origins array8 (Supplementary Information section 9) (Extended Data Table 1). We used ADMIXTURE13 to identify 59 ‘west Eurasian’ populations that cluster with Europe and the Near East (Supplementary Information section 9 and Extended Data Fig. 3). Principal component analysis (PCA)14 (Supplementary Information section 10) (Fig. 2) indicates a DISCONTINUITY BETWEEN THE NEAR EAST AND EUROPE, with each showing north–south clines ****bridged**** only by a few populations of mainly Mediterranean origin.Weprojected15
This is exact what DNATribes observed. I posted on this already. DNATribes speculated it was either Through North Africa OR the Levant and NOT both. They were not sure.
That is my point. Many are up to discussing this stuff …but this is where we are at.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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[*]Iosif Lazaridis et al Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Nature 513, 409–413 (18 September 2014)
We sequenced the genomes of a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Germany and eight ~8,000-year-old hunter-gatherers from Luxembourg and Sweden. We analysed these and other ancient genomes1, 2, 3, 4 with 2,345 contemporary humans to show that most present-day Europeans derive from at least three highly differentiated populations....
you seem to always arrive at conclusions opposite of those drawn by the article. Is it possible your monitor is upside down?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I made it clear over year ago that Otzi Alps Iceman and the Mbuti shared a recent and unique genetic link. No one understood what I was talking about. Many TreeMix studies show a close link between Iberians and Mbuti. About 2 years ago Dienekess chalked that up to an anomaly. But guess what, Lazaridis et al Sept2014 CONFIRMS that connection between Otzi and Mbuti. Keep in mind Mbuti was the baseline African population chosen and may not be the source population.
Also as I recently found out, my bad for not paying closer attention WITHIN Africa, but MButi are Nilo-Saharan speaking a click language unlike Biaka. Nilo-Saharan???? Basal Eurasian=EEF=Otzi. Take it from there. Get it! got it!
This is not rocket science.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
That is the problem. Many don’t grasp it what they are reading..
I asked DJ about a month ago in that Lactase thread…….which came first the camel or the gene? He rightly answered the gene.
Now, I asked earlier in this thread ..which came first the starch or the gene? As Lazaridis pointed out AMY exited long before the advent of agriculture.
My point? Tic! Toc!
This is not roacket science
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I made it clear over year ago that Otzi Alps Iceman and the Mbuti shared a recent and unique genetic link. No one understood what I was talking about.
So you rae saying that the Otzi iceman is more related to African pygmies than Sardinians. alert the media
question so who are the ancestors of modern Sardinians
posted
To those fcking idiots are pretend to understand this stuff. “Basal Eurasian” is the genetic material observed by DNATribes in “their” study, yes, I said “study” because it was. They used their own dataset, independent of Lazaridis to confirm “Basque” genetic material…….found throughout Africa…even in South Saharans Africans…..Basque? LOL! The nerve!
That’s right! …chirp! chirp!
I own this!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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But to the lurkers to be clear. Three popualtions YES!, but look at the percentages in the table. Southern Europeans are at least 80% Basal ie EEF. The remainer percentage is WHG and ANE. Northern Europeans have more WHG and ANE but are still at least 50% EEF. Thus, I understand the use of the term "Basal European"
Tic! Toc!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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But guess what, Lazaridis et al Sept2014 CONFIRMS that connection between Otzi and Mbuti. Keep in mind Mbuti was the baseline African population chosen and may not be the source population.
:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
So you rae saying that the Otzi iceman is more related to African pygmies than Sardinians. alert the media
tic toc
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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advent of agriculture.]We compared the ancient genomes to 2,345 present-day humans from 203 populations genotyped at 594,924 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)with the Human Origins array8 (Supplementary Information section 9) (Extended Data Table 1). We used ADMIXTURE13 to identify 59 ‘west Eurasian’ populations that cluster with Europe and the Near East (Supplementary Information section 9 and Extended Data Fig. 3). Principal component analysis (PCA)14 (Supplementary Information section 10) (Fig. 2) indicates a discontinuity between the Near East, with each showing north–south clines bridged only by a few populations of mainly Mediterranean origin.
-----
This is exact what DNATribes observed. I posted on this already. DNATribes speculated it was either Through North Africa OR the Levant and NOT both. They were not sure.
That is my point. Many are up to discussing this stuff …but this is where we are at. [/QB]
"each showing north–south clines bridged only by a few populations of mainly Mediterranean origin"
posted
Remember that stupid argument in that other thread about clusters vs population for K value.
I was kind of slow on that one……the fcking idiots do not know that K=Kluster in German. I lost sight of that and could have killed that discussion from the git go.
---
why waste my time?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
xyyman would it be correct to say genetically there is nothing that distinguishes a modern European from an African?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
HLA is not an infallible last word on the subject, but part of a package, another confirming line of evidence as to Greek-African links, not a sweeping claim of Greek-African identity. And if Africans are labeled as "mixed" likewise Greeks too are "mixed" at some level. Even, steven..
Agreed! And I'd like you to break this down into palatable chunks (one post for each numeral bullet for instance) and cross post to the A-V PC thread. Thanks!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I don't have to do nothing but moderate posts. I don't own a thing here except my posts. Like I said I have TNV and time is on my side.
And BTW ES is much more than just genetics.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
You have to come up with a plan to revitalize the Forum. The current debate is in genetics but most people are clueless. Posting pictures and commenting is much easy and require less brain cells. The game has changed.
ES is not the only one.
]
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Let's get back on topic.
If not just let the thread die.
There are stickies to discuss the state of the forum and mod.
posted
What is this? A trick question? Nice try bro. SMH. It depends, there is no yes or no answer. For instance the two phenotype that is used to distinguish Europeans from Africans, skin shade and high nose originated IN Africa Shriver et al.(for skin color). . 35ky old Kenyan man for high nose. Europeans have a consistent and higher frequency of SPECIFIC genes and thus phenotype. Africans other hand has a much greater range of variability. Both in genotype and thus phenotype.
Eg LCT genes . ALL are found in Africa because all originated in Africa even the Asians and Native Americans that do NOT carry any of these phenotype. This is not rocket science.
Oh! Am I casting Africans in a bad light(sic)? Being prejudicial to Africans or Europaens?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman would it be correct to say genetically there is nothing that distinguishes a modern European from an African?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
To the lurkers and those who may not get it the picture. The picture emerging is that many genes originated not only in Africa but surprisingly NOT as a result of external stimulus. Eg Africans carry ALL variations of lactose tolerance 13910, 19315, and many others found ONLY IN Africa. This includes Africans that are also NOT lactose tolerance just as Asians and Native Americans. As Lazaridis just pointed out, Loshbour and many pre-agriculture humans carried high copies of the AMY genes which they thought was a result due to the switch to a high starch diet. In fact these ancient humans carried higher copies than many modern Europeans. Asians and modern Native Americans carry the highest frequency. See table in the Lazaridis study.
What does that tell us? Europeans BS a lot and they don’t know what they are talking about. They should refrain from interpreting the data.
Another example is skin shade. Shriver concluded that AMH left Africa with the ability to develop light skin. And he came to that conclusion when studying SSA. Yes SSA. That is high tropical /UV belt Africans. Rees/Mekova speculated over a decade ago that the ability to develop light skin ALWAYS existed in Africans. She speculated “remove the constraint” and light skin will develop. I posted on this about 5 years ago. Light skin development has nothing to do with Vit D deficiency or diet! Jablonski was BSing. Full analysis is posted on ESR.
Europeans, Asians and Native Americans are a sub-set of Africans.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman would it be correct to say genetically there is nothing that distinguishes a modern European from an African?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Eg LCT genes . ALL are found in Africa because all originated in Africa even the Asians and Native Americans that do NOT carry any of these phenotype. This is not rocket science.
Oh! Am I casting Africans in a bad light(sic)? Being prejudicial to Africans or Europaens?
Why would all mutations originate in Africa if humans have been outside Africa 60-70 K or longer why couldn't unique mutations develop outside Africa? If there is gentic variation inside Africa why can't there be genetic variation that occured and originated outside Africa?? What, all mutation stopped after people left Africa?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ Indeed, just as there are Euronuts who downplay African genetic diversity by attributing it to 'back-migrations', you have Afronuts on the other side denying any back-migrations at all. But to deny that non-Africans have even developed any alleles of their own is just down right idiotic.
And you wonder why nobody takes xyzmouse seriously except YOU. Posts: 26241 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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