posted
Forwarded from here, is this exchange between Djehuti and I, on the issue of the correlations between Egyptian deities and Greek deities…
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
While I cannot speak for all deities, or details of religion in general, what is clear, is that there are strong correlations between various Egyptian gods and those of ancient Greece.
Djehuti: I fail to see the resemblances
quote:Supercar: A few examples that come to mind:
Amun Other Names: Ammon, Amen, Kematef
Patron of: the wind, the sun, in later periods he was the supreme deity.
Appearance: A man with a punt beard and feathered crown, sometimes wearing the sun disk. He is also shown as a ram or ram-headed man.
Description: A primordial Egyptian creation god, a member of the Ogdoad, and the consort of Amaunet. He was also the consort once of Mut, their child is the moon-god Khonsu.
Worship: Cult centers at Karnak and Deir-el-Bahari (near Luxor), after he was combined with Ra he became the primary deity of the state religion. He was also worshipped by the Greeks as a variant of Zeus.
Variants:
Amun-Ra Composite deity with Ra (starting around the XI Dynasty), king of all the gods, worshipped primarily at Thebes.
Ammon The Greek version, worshipped as a variant of Zeus.
Djehuti: Zeus was an Indo-European thunder god who ruled from mount Olympus. I don't see how this relates to Amun, a creator god who was often concieved of as invisible or transcendant.
quote:Supercar posted:
Imhotep Other Names: Imhetep.
Patron of: architecture and the sciences.
Appearance: a man dressed in the robes of a noble with the punt beard and carrying the tools of a builder.
Description: Not really a god in the truest sense of the word, Imhotep was a deified man. He was originally the chief architect, grand vizier, physician, and scientist under Zoser (III Dynasty, c.2635-2570 BC). He designed the Step Pyramid at Saqqara and formulated the architectural theories that would lead to the construction of the Pyramids of Giza only a few generations later. He was also an accomplished astronomer and physician.
After his death a cult sprang up dedicated to him. It quickly grew in popularity among the learned people of Egypt (Imhotep's life had occurred during a sort of Renaissance) and continued for many centuries. His followers believed him to be the son of Ptah, the architect of the entire universe.
Worship: Worshipped widely throughout Egypt, he even had a flourishing cult in Greece where he was identified with Asclepius, another deified man and the god of healing.
Djehuti: Asclepius was a medicinal god, but other than that the similarity ends there with him having no connections ot architecture.
quote:Supercar posted:
Osiris There is an interesting parallel between Osiris, a fertility/agriculture god, and the Greek Persephone, an agriculture goddess. Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by "legal loopholes" in the laws of the gods. Persephone remains in the underworld for half a year because she tasted the food of the dead. Osiris remains in the underworld because Ma'at dictates that the dead, even dead gods, may not return to the land of the living." - touregypt.net
Djehuti: Persephone was a female fertility deity who didn't actually die, at least not in the same sense as Osiris. Osiris would seem to better correspond to Adonis, lover of Aphrodite who in turn was actually based on the Semitic god Adon.
quote:Supercar posted:
Isis Other Names: None.
Patron of: women, mothers, children, magic, medicine, and the Ritual of Life.
Appearance: A beautiful woman in magnificent clothing, sometimes shown wearing the sun disk. She has almost no variant forms.
Description: Isis may be the oldest deity in Egypt, and certainly the oldest to survive the ages in much the same form. She may also be the most important, for although the other gods were worshipped widely, Isis was worshipped almost universally by all Egyptians. The major goddess of the Egyptian pantheon, she had many of the same attributes of other mother-goddesses found all over the world. She was revered as the great protector, prayed to for guidance, and beseeched for peace in the world. Temples to Isis are found everywhere in Egypt, some of them quite ancient, and many houses had shrines to her devotion. Her worship was taken up by the Greeks and the Romans, and indeed, Isis followers are still found today.
She was the daughter of Nut and Geb, the sister to Osiris, Set, and Nephthys, and the mother of Horus. In earlier times she was not only the wife to Osiris, but his female counterpart, equal in all ways and powers. In the Legend of Osiris it is she who travels the world to find all the pieces of his body and it is she who brings him back to life with the aid of Thoth. But that is not the only time she is associated with Thoth. Together they taught man the secrets of magic, medicine, and agriculture. Her power is spoken of much in the ancient stories, and she may have been even more powerful than Ra and Osiris. She did after all trick Ra's secret name out of him to gain his power. Yet she is never shown as selfish or cruel, except to those who would harm those she loves. Power and compassion, crafty but merciful, Isis represents all the qualities of women.
Worship: Worshipped widely not only throughout Egypt but also much of the known world.
The source for the god and goddess info: TourEgypt.Net
Djehuti: Yes, well Isis was perhaps the only Egptian deity that really was adopted by Europeans and became especially popular during the early Roman Empire.
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And now, analyzing Djehuti’s responses to my postings:
quote:Djehuti: Zeus was an Indo-European thunder god who ruled from mount Olympus. I don't see how this relates to Amun, a creator god who was often concieved of as invisible or transcendant.
Djehuti doesn’t see the relationship between Zeus and Amun, but let’s explore why TourEgypt’s authors took it upon themselves to see this relationship…
TourEgypt wrote:
Amun Other Names: Ammon, Amen, Kematef
Worship: Cult centers at Karnak and Deir-el-Bahari (near Luxor), after he was combined with Ra he became the primary deity of the state religion. He was also worshipped by the Greeks as a variant of Zeus…
Ammon The Greek version, worshipped as a variant of Zeus.
Now, lets carefully examine TourEgypt’s wording. It is claimed that “Amon was worshipped as a “variant” of Zeus. And here is why, according to TourEgypt:
"In the mostly abandoned village of Aghurmi in the Siwa Oasis is a most famous temple of Amun, now more known as the Temple of the Oracle because of Alexander's visit when he conquered Egypt. It is actually one of two temples dedicated to Amun at Siwa, the other being Umm Ubayda. It sits atop a flat rock, and is a spectacular sight. Built during the 26th Dynasty (though the Oracle's origin is reputed to be much, much older), this temple and its Oracle flourished well into the Greek and Roman periods.
The Oracle at Siwa was held in such high favor in Greece that an Athenian galley was commissioned solely to convey envoys to Mersa Matruh, then called Ammonia, where they would begin their desert trek to the oasis. The Greeks probably learned of the Oracle after they invaded the northern coast and established Cyrene (now Libya) in 637 BC. Afterwards, the Oracle was absorbed into Greek religion and associated with Zeus, who became associated with the Egyptian Amun. The Oracle is reputed to have cursed Andromeda and she was tied to a rock to be devoured by a sea-serpent. Perseus is said to have stopped off to visit the Oracle prior to beheading Medusa, and Hercules is though to have visited it before he fought Bursiris…
We are told that Alexander the Great, in 331 BC) consulted the Oracle in order to seek confirmation that he was the son of Zeus (Amun), and therefore a legitimate ruler of both Egypt and other lands that he conquered. When he and his entourage arrived after capturing Egypt, a manifestation of the Oracle was paraded through the city accompanied by eighty priests. After his visit to the Oracle, whenever his image appeared on coins, Alexander was shown with the horns of the ram, symbolic of the god Amun. We know that Alexander consulted the Oracle at least once, and probably more than one time. After Alexander, Hannibal is reported to have visited the Oracle and the Elians were so deeply influenced by the Oracle that they kept a list of all their questions and answers provided by the Oracle, which they engraved in stone upon a temple wall. However, by the time of the Romans, the Oracle began a decline."
Besides, you got another thing wrong: Amun was represented in "human form", notwithstanding that he was supposed to be one of the many manifestations of the 'invisible' Creator, as the "King of Kings".
The next relationship that Djehuti seems to have an issue with, is that of Imhotep and the Greek Asclepius. Let’s see what the TourEgypt notes say:
Imhotep Other Names: Imhetep.
Description: Not really a god in the truest sense of the word, Imhotep was a deified man.…
Worship: Worshipped widely throughout Egypt, he even had a flourishing cult in Greece where he was identified with Asclepius,another **deified man** and the god of healing.
Now, why did the Greeks feel the need to make a cult out of an adored Egyptian figure!…Well, perhaps unlike Djehuti, the Greeks felt that there was a correlation to make between their deified figure and that of the Egyptians. Plain and simple.
Who is the next victim of Djehuti’s doubts…ah, it’s Osiris!
Whom did TourEgypt correlate Osiris:
Osiris There is an interesting parallel between Osiris, a fertility/agriculture god, and the Greek Persephone, an agriculture goddess. Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by "legal loopholes" in the laws of the gods. Persephone remains in the underworld for half a year because she tasted the food of the dead. Osiris remains in the underworld because Ma'at dictates that the dead, even dead gods, may not return to the land of the living." - touregypt.net
In carefully dissecting TourEgypt’s words, the author claims that there is a parallel to be made here, and what is this according to the author? It is spelt out virtually in a plain and simple language, which was that, aside from both being associated with agriculture,…
“Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by "legal loopholes" in the laws of the gods. Persephone remains in the underworld for half a year because she tasted the food of the dead. Osiris remains in the underworld because Ma'at dictates that the dead, even dead gods, may not return to the land of the living."
Nowhere in TourEgypt’s notes, is it mentioned that Persephone died in the same manner as Osiris did; it would appear this is just a strawman that Djehuti needed to create, only then to knock it down.
The only Egyptian deity that seemed to have escaped Djehuti’s questioning was Isis, with regards to whom, Djehuti wrote:
Yes, well Isis was perhaps the only Egptian deity that really was adopted by Europeans and became especially popular during the early Roman Empire.
Now, if Isis could be an example of an Egyptian deity that was passed onto the Europeans, I don’t see why other Egyptian deities couldn’t have been used as templates in antiquity. I don’t see why Isis was needed to be the first and last [notwithstanding that Isis is amongst the earliest Nile Valley deities], and that, it is impossible for this to have occurred again…basically, the Europeans taking it upon themselves to say “we are just going to stop at Isis; no more deities related to that of Egypt!”.
In the meantime, recalling from an earlier discussion, from Dec. 2004, where a poster by the name Sunstorm2004 posted the following link, with some of the photos below. Something worth exploring further, in my opinion…
“The frontal pose, the left foot extended forward, the arms attached or close to the hips, the rigid pose, and the mysterious smile are all characteristics of the Kouros and Kore statues of the Archaic period. The sculpture of the Archaic Greek style is evidently influenced by ancient Egypt as the commerce between the two countries was flourishing.”
Kouros Marble, lifesize, circa 540 B.C. Found at the cemetery of Anavysos On the base a verse was carved: "Stand and grieve at the tomb of Kroisos the dead, in the front line slain by the wild Ares" (Translated by GreekLandscapes.com)
Kouros Lifesize, circa 550 B.C. From the island of Melos.
Other photos:
Kouros, Marble, 3m tall, circa 600 B.C. Found in a pit at the temple of Poseidon at Sounio along with parts of four other destroyed kouroi
Kore (Phrasikleia) by Ariston of Paros and Kouros, lifesize, circa 550 B.C. Found in a pit at Merenda in Attica in 1972. The base of Phrasikleia has been known since 1729 and it reads:
"Marker of Phrasikleia I could be called kore (maiden) for ever instead of wedded by the gods thus being named [Aris]tion of Paros created me" (Translated by GreekLandscapes.com)
Now, let’s take a look at an example of the standing gestures of statues of Egyptian Pharaohs:
posted
^^ I do not doubt that the Greek Kouros statues were influenced by Egypt, as is obviously seen by the appearance of the statues themselves!
But statues aside, I don't think that any of the Greek gods were based on or influenced by Egypt.
Plain and simple, when Greeks first began visiting Egypt they began to identify the Egyptian gods as their own but this doesn't mean their gods had an Egyptian origin.
For example, Zeus was king of the gods in the Greek pantheon and since Amun was king of the gods in Egypt, it was easy to say he was Zeus.
Heck, the Greeks identified Djehuti (Thoth) as Hermes due to some similarities this does not mean Hermes was actually derived from him.
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quote:Originally posted by Pax Dahomensis: Zeus, and Jupiter are one and same Indo-European God.
Correct. Zeus is derived from Deus and Jupiter from Deus-piter. Deus is the Indo-European root for sky.
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But statues aside, I don't think that any of the Greek gods were based on or influenced by Egypt.
These strawman tactics prove to be futile, when used on posters like myself. I suggest, you read the notes provided earlier carefully AGAIN, and listen to what is being said therein!
quote:Djehuti: Plain and simple, when Greeks first began visiting Egypt they began to identify the Egyptian gods as their own but this doesn't mean their gods had an Egyptian origin.
When did the Greeks first begin visiting Egypt? And when did they begin to "identify Egyptian gods as their own"? If I am not mistaken, you at admitted earlier, that at least one of the deities mentioned, made its way to Greece/Europe...or you are now retracting from that admission? If you aren't retracting from that earlier acknowledgement, what then, do you make of what was said about that matter?
quote:Zeus: For example, Zeus was king of the gods in the Greek pantheon and since Amun was king of the gods in Egypt, it was easy to say he was Zeus.
Is this the reason, according to TourEgypt [whose notes you were responding to], that the Greeks made a connection between Amun and Zeus?
quote:Djehuti: Heck, the Greeks identified Djehuti (Thoth) as Hermes due to some similarities this does not mean Hermes was actually derived from him.
Another strawman. It seems that strawman arguments is all you have been able to offer at this point; you haven't actually said anything that either refutes or addresses my initial posting, which you jumped at without careful consideration to the specifics provided therein.
On the side: In any case, it at least now seems that you are acknowledging some correlations/parallels between the deities, which facilitated the Greeks to make identifications with their own. Are all such parallels just mere coincidences, perhaps because elements of them were found in some antiquated 'Near Eastern' societies,...or might this have something to do with how these antiquated societies incorporated theological elements of other cultures into their own, when they came into contact? Certainly, the Greeks continued to do so in the classical era, as we have seen; see the TourEgypt example of Zeus. What about the archaic Greek era? Not to say that various new cosmological elements [involving stories surrounding deified characters] haven't evolved from older ones or introduced, but the classical Greeks actually inherited many such cultural elements from their predecessors in the region. Could those predecessors not have done what classical Greeks apparently did, absorbing cosmological elements of another society into their own; and hence, what you have in the end isn't an exact duplicate, but a sense of parallelism from the amalgamation of ideas/thoughts?
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These strawman tactics prove to be futile, when used on posters like myself. I suggest, you read the notes provided earlier carefully AGAIN, and listen to what is being said therein!
I read them carefully and whatever similarities are superficial at best and are akin to Winter's Dravidian similarities with Africa.
quote:When did the Greeks first begin visiting Egypt? And when did they begin to "identify Egyptian gods as their own"? If I am not mistaken, you at admitted earlier, that at least one of the deities mentioned, made its way to Greece/Europe...or you are now retracting from that admission? If you aren't retracting from that earlier acknowledgement, what then, do you make of what was said about that matter?
Yes the Greeks adopted Isis as well as the Romans during the Roman empire when traders who've sailed to Egypt made it popular throughout the empire. What does this have to do with native Greek gods?
quote:Is this the reason, according to TourEgypt [whose notes you were responding to], that the Greeks made a connection between Amun and Zeus?
Yes. The Greeks themselves claim the existence of other gods besides their own but what does this have to do with their own deities?
quote:Another strawman. It seems that strawman arguments is all you have been able to offer at this point; you haven't actually said anything that either refutes or addresses my initial posting, which you jumped at without careful consideration to the specifics provided therein.
Sorry if you feel that way, but I just don't think any of the evidence presents any actual connections to Egypt.
quote:On the side: In any case, it at least now seems that you are acknowledging some correlations/parallels between the deities, which facilitated the Greeks to make identifications with their own. Are all such parallels just mere coincidences, perhaps because elements of them were found in some antiquated 'Near Eastern' societies,...or might this have something to do with how these antiquated societies incorporated theological elements of other cultures into their own, when they came into contact? Certainly, the Greeks continued to do so in the classical era, as we have seen; see the TourEgypt example of Zeus. What about the archaic Greek era? Not to say that various new cosmological elements [involving stories surrounding deified characters] haven't evolved from older ones or introduced, but the classical Greeks actually inherited many such cultural elements from their predecessors in the region. Could those predecessors not have done what classical Greeks apparently did, absorbing cosmological elements of another society into their own; and hence, what you have in the end isn't an exact duplicate, but a sense of parallelism from the amalgamation of ideas/thoughts?
Archaic Greek culture has been largely attributed to Anatolia so of course most of the parallels and similarities exist with that area.
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These strawman tactics prove to be futile, when used on posters like myself. I suggest, you read the notes provided earlier carefully AGAIN, and listen to what is being said therein!
I read them carefully and whatever similarities are superficial at best and are akin to Winter's Dravidian similarities with Africa.
...but your answer here still makes it clear, that you haven't CAREFULLY read what you were requested to 'carefully' read...and you still haven't figured out why this is the case! Before you make baseless comparisons of what is being presented here to discussions elsewhere, which undoubtedly have no relevance to the issue at hand, you have to indicate to the rest of us that you understand what is being presented. You haven't demonstrated this yet.
quote:
quote:Supercar: When did the Greeks first begin visiting Egypt? And when did they begin to "identify Egyptian gods as their own"? If I am not mistaken, you at admitted earlier, that at least one of the deities mentioned, made its way to Greece/Europe...or you are now retracting from that admission? If you aren't retracting from that earlier acknowledgement, what then, do you make of what was said about that matter?
Yes the Greeks adopted Isis as well as the Romans during the Roman empire when traders who've sailed to Egypt made it popular throughout the empire. What does this have to do with native Greek gods?
Well then, did you read the comment that I made about the matter? Again, your response is indicative of the possiblity that you either haven't read it...or this is merely another diversion tactic of yours. I have a feeling that the latter is more likely the case. Besides, you haven't answered my questions, but simply asked strawman questions in the place of an actual answers.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: Is this the reason, according to TourEgypt [whose notes you were responding to], that the Greeks made a connection between Amun and Zeus?
Yes.
Good. Then pick out the citation from the TourEgypt notes presented, that the reason of the said connection between Zeus and Amun, was for none other, but that Amun was the 'King of gods'.
quote:Djehuti: The Greeks themselves claim the existence of other gods besides their own but what does this have to do with their own deities?
If you had carefully read what the TourEgypt notes said about the Zeus and Amun connection, as you claim you have, then why are you asking this bizarre question as to 'what this has to do with their own deities'?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: Another strawman. It seems that strawman arguments is all you have been able to offer at this point; you haven't actually said anything that either refutes or addresses my initial posting, which you jumped at without careful consideration to the specifics provided therein.
Sorry if you feel that way, but I just don't think any of the evidence presents any actual connections to Egypt.
It isn't what I feel; I have merely stated the facts of the situation. You have tried and continue to try to place claims into both my mouth and the TourEgypt notes provided, while never actually addressing the specifics provided therein. Can you actually address the notes provided; you haven't done so yet, and that is the FACT!
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: On the side: In any case, it at least now seems that you are acknowledging some correlations/parallels between the deities, which facilitated the Greeks to make identifications with their own. Are all such parallels just mere coincidences, perhaps because elements of them were found in some antiquated 'Near Eastern' societies,...or might this have something to do with how these antiquated societies incorporated theological elements of other cultures into their own, when they came into contact? Certainly, the Greeks continued to do so in the classical era, as we have seen; see the TourEgypt example of Zeus. What about the archaic Greek era? Not to say that various new cosmological elements [involving stories surrounding deified characters] haven't evolved from older ones or introduced, but the classical Greeks actually inherited many such cultural elements from their predecessors in the region. Could those predecessors not have done what classical Greeks apparently did, absorbing cosmological elements of another society into their own; and hence, what you have in the end isn't an exact duplicate, but a sense of parallelism from the amalgamation of ideas/thoughts?
Archaic Greek culture has been largely attributed to Anatolia so of course most of the parallels and similarities exist with that area.
Nice try with the non-sequitur, and needless to say, doesn't again really address what you are supposedly responding to. You had earlier claimed that there was some similarities between some of the deities you noted, which you claimed made it easy for the Greeks to identify Egyptian deities with their own; are you now retracting from that?
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posted
Another thing to point out is that the archaic Greek temples were modelled on the Egyptian style of temple building, with columns, etc. So you have statues and temples modelled after Egyptian themes, but not the gods themselves? Something is missing here. Seems that this is an argument over semantics. While no one would deny that there was a pre Egyptian worship of various dieties of some sort in Greece, the evidence does show significant influence from Egypt in the form of temple construction and sculpture, which would lead one to believe that there was also influence in terms of ceremony and cosmology as well. Face facts, Egypt at 600 B.C. was the superpower of the Mediterranean and the Greeks of that time would have had many reasons to emulate certain characteristics of Egyptian culture.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Another thing to point out is that the archaic Greek temples were modelled on the Egyptian style of temple building, with columns, etc. So you have statues and temples modelled after Egyptian themes, but not the gods themselves? Something is missing here...While no one would deny that there was a pre Egyptian worship of various dieties of some sort in Greece, the evidence does show significant influence from Egypt in the form of temple construction and sculpture, which would lead one to believe that there was also influence in terms of ceremony and cosmology as well.
A reasonable question and observation. And even as we look at the above examples of statues emulating ancient Egyptian styles, something unique about them remains, and an apparent one at that: the subjects being totally naked. This is obviously a mixing of a foreign tradition with a local one.
Ideas are absorbed or integrated into pre-existing local or indigenous ones, in a variety ways. We have come across an instance, as presented in the TourEgypt notes, where a deity was incorporated, with little change made to the original deity...that deity being Isis, while in another instance, an pre-existing deity from another culture was incorporated as a manifestation of an existing local deity, that deity being Zeus. And now, I am going to present an instance, where a deity is to serve as a prototype of a local deity...
Earlier I posted:
quote: On the side: In any case, it at least now seems that you are acknowledging some correlations/parallels between the deities, which facilitated the Greeks to make identifications with their own. Are all such parallels just mere coincidences...or might this have something to do with how these antiquated societies incorporated theological elements of other cultures into their own, when they came into contact? Certainly, the Greeks continued to do so in the classical era, as we have seen; see the TourEgypt example of Zeus. What about the archaic Greek era?...Could those predecessors not have done what classical Greeks apparently did, absorbing cosmological elements of another society into their own; and hence, what you have in the end isn't an exact duplicate, but a sense of parallelism from the amalgamation of ideas/thoughts?
And so, speaking of absorption or amalgamation of ideas, here I use the Egyptian deity, the Benu, as a possible example. From the notes of www.philae.nu, we have the following…
quote: “Oh Atum-Khoprer, you became high on the height, you rose up as 'bnbn'-stone in the Mansion of the Benu in On (Heliopolis).” - Pyramid Texts, utt 600
The Benu is the protoype of the Greek Phoenix, which Herodotus some 2000 years later than its first appearance in ancient texts confused it with. True that there are mythological similarities between these two creatures, they are both linked to the Sun and to rebirth, but the differences are greater than similarities and revolve around other matters.
Origin The Benu bird is mentioned for the first time in the Pyramid Texts, utterance 600, which is cited above. At this time, the Old Kingdom, the bird is represented as what is thought to be a wagtail, (Motacilla flava) and symbolizing Atum, the Heliopolitan Sun-god. Later in the Middle Kingdom, the Benu was called the ‘Ba’ (physical manifestation of the soul) of the sun-god Ra/Re. In the Book of the Dead from the New Kingdom, however, the Benu is represented as a grey heron (Ardea cinera), with long head plumes and a straight beak. Though primarily associated with Atum and Re, the resurrection aspect led to an association with Osiris and the heron was sometimes depicted wearing the ‘atef’ crown.
In ancient Egyptian, the hieroglyph for ‘Benu’, which probably were a derivation of the word ‘weben’, means to ‘rise in brilliance’ or ‘to shine’. But the heron is represented with two different hieroglyphs; standing upright as if wading through water (Gardiner 31) and perching on its peg (Gardiner 32). The standing heron appears in naturalistic or symbolical scenes connected with the sun-god or life after death. Often the sun-disc was drawn above its head, pointing at the connection with the myth of the sun-god and its day and night journey. The heron also represented the ‘Ba’ - the soul of Ra, during the Late Period the hieroglyph Gardiner 53 was to represent the Ba.
Manifestation of the Creator God The Benu was one of the manifestations of the Creator God at Heliopolis. Like him, the Benu was imagined as being self-created, in the mythological papyri of Dyn 21 he described as ‘He who came into being by himself’. He emerged out of the original darkness before creation to be:
“…that breath of life which emerged from the throat of the Benu bird, the son of Re in whom Atum appeared in the primeval naught, infinity, darkness and nowhere.”
By the cry of the Benu bird, existence was announced as a coming into being. The silence of the primeval night is broken and the light and life is brought to creation.
This is no minor deity but, to quote Rundle Clark: “the herald of all things to come” and an aspect of the creator god himself. From the ‘Isle of Fire’, the mythical place where the gods were born, beyond the limits of the created world, the Benu comes flying. And the place where it lands becomes the symbolic center of the earth - Heliopolis. On the sarcophagus of the God’s Wife of Amun, Ankhesneferibre, (British Museum) the Benu is perched on a sacred willow tree in the temple.
There are depictions of the heron perching on a cliff or a little piece of land which is rising above the flooded water. In this way it became an adequate image of life emerging out of the primeval waters at the first time of creation, just like the sun was said to do, and thus symbolizing rebirth. This piece of land was called the ‘ben-ben’ stone, and as the place where the heron landed at the time of creation, it became the sacred stone of Heliopolis. It seen in the hieroglyph with the sitting heron (G32).
A Symbol of Rebirth Because of its association with rebirth, the heron also became a manifestation of the resurrected Osiris. There are depictions of the heron wearing an ‘atef’ crown normally worn by Osiris and also of it sitting in the willow tree of Osiris. In the underworld Benu is a symbol for expected renewal of life, and appears on heart scarabs which were buried with the deceased, as well as frequent depictions in the afterlife books…
Herodotus and the Phoenix Let’s say this first: Herodotus was a stranger to the Egyptian way of thinking and interpreted what he heard and saw according to his own cultural conditioning. Herodotus was told about the Benu by priests at Heliopolis, during his travel in Egypt in 500’s B.C. This is what he tells:
“They have also another sacred bird called the phoenix which I myself have never seen, except in pictures. Indeed it is a great rarity, even in Egypt, only coming there (according to the accounts of the people of Heliopolis) once in 500 years, when the old phoenix dies. Its size and appearance, if it is like the pictures, are as follows:- The plumage is partly red, partly golden, while the general make and size are almost exactly of that of the eagle. They tell a story of what this bird does, which does not seem to me to be credible: that he comes all the way from Arabia, and brings the parent bird, all plastered over with myrrh, to the temple of the Sun, and there buries the body. In order to bring him, they say, he first forms a ball of myrrh, and the ball is then of exactly the same weight as at first; so he brings it to Egypt, plastered over as I have said, and deposits it in the temple of the Sun. Such is the story they tell of the doings of this bird.”
It is easy to see how Herodotus mixed what he was told with elements of the myth of the Phoenix, which was known to him from other ancient authors. The similarities between the Benu and the various Phoenix myths which existed and still exist around the world, from Europe to China, come together in associations with rebirth, the solar motif, and the connection with Heliopolis.During the ancient days, several authors added to the myth. In ancient Rome the phoenix was used politically as a symbol for the Roman empires ability to regenerate its power and in Christian times the Church incorporated the phoenix as the symbol for the immortal soul. Motifs like egg, fire and various forms of regeneration can be found. But it all seems to have begun in ancient Egypt long before the time of Herodotus.
Herodotus tells us nothing about his priest-informants, if they were well-educated and highly placed in the temple hierarchy, or if they were young acolytes with not much knowledge of the sacred texts. There might also be problems with the translation from ancient Greek. Other sources for the Benu and its development through time since the first mentioning in the Pyramid Texts are lacking, all we know is that the Benu bird became included in funerary ritual where he ensured the rebirth of the deceased, but we don’t know how this development came about.
One thing to keep in mind when studying myths is to allow them their differences, no matter how eager we might be to see similarities between them. The differences are reflections of their respective cultural belongings and heritage, and in a way they thereby reflect both the differences and similarities between Man as he appears in his various cultures. And so, as with all efforts of understanding myths and their origin, we are left partially to wonder, which is not always a bad thing.
Sources: The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt - Richard H. Wilkinson Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt - R.T. Rundle Clark Egyptian Myths - George Hart Reading Egyptian Art - Richard H. Wilkinson Historia - Herodotus http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/heredotus/3.html Pyramid Texts, Faulkner Transl. Symbollexikonet - Hans Beadsman
Notwithstanding that in the last paragraph, the author(s) above cautions on over-emphasizing similarities while downplaying differences, even the author(s) here doesn’t dismiss the notion of the ancient Egyptian deity Benu serving as a prototype for the Greek version, and possibly for those found elsewhere, where some of the basic elements of the tradition associated with the bird, could have ultimately originated in the Nile Valley. The point here is that, while it is possible that parallel thinking could have occurred among different people in different regions at different timeframes, some things seem a little too coincidental, for instance, this again from the above:
“The similarities between the Benu and the various Phoenix myths which existed and still exist around the world, from Europe to China, come together in associations with rebirth, the solar motif, and the connection with Heliopolis...”
...and a contributing factor to the divergence of the symbolic usage of this bird...
"...During the ancient days, several authors added to the myth"Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But exactly where is the evidence that such similarities are due to diffusion from Egypt?
Are you now saying the Chinese phoenix is also of Egyptian origin??
Don't know exactly how the Chinese phoenix connects with the Egyptian one, other than the fact that they are both birds of the "Sun" or "fire", that they both have long lives, and that the Egyptian one, in particular, is the oldest recorded one to date. I take the same stance, as the author(s) of the above notes, when it comes to this issue. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the idea originated somewhere, or in some specific places, and then spread through either trade or conflict to other areas. It is certainly possible that ideas from the Nile Valley could have reached places as far as China in antiquity and vice versa, since the Egyptians dealt a lot with "Near Eastern" cultures, whom in turn dealt with Indus and Chinese ancient cultures. None of these cultures existed in isolation, which you should be quite aware of; this is what made them grow in the first place. So, the spread of cultural elements doesn't necessarily have to come through direct contact; it can flow via third parties, in any direction. What is quite evident however, is the link between the Egyptian phoenix and that of the ancient Greeks.
I think denying that archaic Greeks incorporated elements of Nile Valley cosmology into their own, as they did with other cultural elements, is what is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to assume that the archaic Greeks didn't have their own local cosmological cultures. The exact depth of how much of Egyptian cosmology flowed into archaic Greece either through direct contact, or through third parties, is difficult to gauge, since there has been a period of dark ages in the development of affairs in ancient Greece, and a lot that is known about what classical Greeks inherited from their predecessors, comes from oral traditions in that part of the world, as well as artwork/visual arts from the predecessors of Greek culture in the region through to classical Greece. The Minoans had a script, as did the Minoan-influenced Myceneans, but less is known about the literacy of the cultures in between the Myceneans and the classical period. Certainly the classical Greeks, like their predecessors, incorported elements of Nile Valley culture and "Near Eastern" cultures into their own ones, and needless to say, elements of the cosmological ideas of the latter cultures, weren't exempt from this flow of culture!
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^^Is it possible for ideas to travel by trade? Yes, but the evidence doesn't hold up for many of the things you claim.
The Phoenix for example. While I don't know whether or not the Greeks adopted the idea from the Greeks, this concept of a firebird was widespread with many variances that correspond to certain areas.
The Egyptian phoenix was modelled after the Benu bird which was a heron, but the phoenix of the Near-East was more hawk-like with heron-like depictions occasionally seen more in Arabia. While the Chinese fenghuang was more fowl like and the Japanese Hoo was similar to the Chinese. The east Asian variant is a true immortal, never having to die and be reborn but always living. In fact, the very prominece of the 'pheonix' figure in mythology should be taken as that of the dragon-- that it is a common global theme rooted in the human psyche. The dragon concept of a powerful serpent or lizard like creature is found from Africa to the Native Americas, perhaps this is a diffusion from Egypt? The pheonix is a bird representing the sun and day.
As far as cosmology, I fail to see the similarities between Greek and Egypt. The Greek cosmology, especially from archaic times, reflected moreso those of the Middle-East as can be seen the succession of gods by the son violently overthrowing his father. This myth can be seen in the Hattian myth of Anatolia as well as the Greek cosmogony.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^Is it possible for ideas to travel by trade? Yes, but the evidence doesn't hold up for many of the things you claim.
Evidence doesn't hold up for which "things" I have claimed. "Vagueness" is something I have had to deal with, from you up to this point. How about being more specific in your feedbacks, for a change.
quote:Djehuti: The Phoenix for example. While I don't know whether or not the Greeks adopted the idea from the Greeks, this concept of a firebird was widespread with many variances that correspond to certain areas.
YOU don't know whether or not the Greeks adopted the idea from the Egyptians, which I presume is what you meant above, however, I do.
As far as the concept of a firebird being widespread, this point has been acknowledge, and the fact that the differences between the said myths are greater than the similarities, has been acknowledged; so, tell me something that hasn't yet been acknowledged!
The point where some of these myths converge, notwithstanding their respective differences, i.e., the idea of the fire-bird being associated with the sun god, rebirth and connection with Heliopolis, to me, seems a little too coincidental.
quote:Djehuti: The Egyptian phoenix was modelled after the Benu bird which was a heron, but the phoenix of the Near-East was more hawk-like with heron-like depictions occasionally seen more in Arabia. While the Chinese fenghuang was more fowl like and the Japanese Hoo was similar to the Chinese. The east Asian variant is a true immortal, never having to die and be reborn but always living.
I suppose it is absolutely impossible for the most basic concept of a sun-bird or fire-bird in divinity to spread, and incorporated into a local myth. Ever heard of the term 'synchretism'?
quote:Djehuti: In fact, the very prominece of the 'pheonix' figure in mythology should be taken as that of the dragon-- that it is a common global theme rooted in the human psyche.
...and how did this mythical creature, come to become a common global theme rooted in the human psyche?
Indeed, parallel think is something that can happen and does happen, mainly in the area of basic human survival strategies, as well as basic human emotions towards their environment and fellow humans. But now, for a minute, let us think about a concept like the Dragon, as an example you brought forth, in terms of parallel thinking:
People from different parts of the globe simply decided that they should come up with a mythical creature/reptile, that breaths fire and perhaps, flies. It is not possible that the basic concept of such a creature, barring the mythological stories attached to it, first developed at a specific place(s), at a specific point in time(s), and then spread elsewhere, where it would then be molded into local myths, either through direct contact in some cases, or through third party contacts?
quote:Djehuti: The dragon concept of a powerful serpent or lizard like creature is found from Africa to the Native Americas, perhaps this is a diffusion from Egypt?
You said it; not I. What I am saying, as with everything else you've attempted to interpret here, are two different things, and this is because, you are bent on putting words into my mouth, and then knocking them down. There is a term for this: it is called creating a strawman. Here is what I have said earlier, with respect to spread of ideas:
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the idea originated somewhere, or in some specific places, and then spread through either trade or conflict to other areas.
...the spread of cultural elements doesn't necessarily have to come through direct contact; it can flow via third parties, in any direction.
What is it about these statements, that you don't understand, for example?
And if you weren't so busy knocking down straw man arguments, what did I say about the pheonix, pertaining to your earlier question?...
Don't know exactly how the Chinese phoenix connects with the Egyptian one [or the Indian one for that matter], other than the fact that they are both birds of the "Sun" or "fire", that they both have long lives, and that the Egyptian one, in particular, is the oldest recorded one to date.
...and then,
What is quite evident however, is the link between the Egyptian phoenix and that of the ancient Greeks.
And now, getting back to your claim about the similarities between the Chinese phoenix and the Japanese phoenix, how do you suppose that came to be?
quote:Djehuti: The pheonix is a bird representing the sun and day.
Okay?
quote:Djehuti: As far as cosmology, I fail to see the similarities between Greek and Egypt.
Well, as far as this concerns the "specifics" I've provided herein, that is your problem; not mine. Those "specifics" remain unrefuted or unadressed, strawman aside.
quote:Djehuti: The Greek cosmology, especially from archaic times, reflected moreso those of the Middle-East as can be seen the succession of gods by the son violently overthrowing his father.
There is no doubt that cosmological elements from the "Near East" have found their way to archaic Greece. There can also be no doubt that cosmological elements from the Nile Valley did the same. Pertaining to which culture, in this aspect, has flowed to archaic Greece more than others, it would be relative term. Are you denying that Nile Valley cosmological elements have ever been incorported into Greek mythology?
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: YOU don't know whether or not the Greeks adopted the idea from the Egyptians, which I presume is what you meant above, however, I do.
As far as the concept of a firebird being widespread, this point has been acknowledge, and the fact that the differences between the said myths are greater than the similarities, has been acknowledged; so, tell me something that hasn't yet been acknowledged!
The point where some of these myths converge, notwithstanding their respective differences, i.e., the idea of the fire-bird being associated with the sun god, rebirth and connection with Heliopolis, to me, seems a little too coincidental.
however, these characterisitcs of the sun and rebirth are also found in the phoenix of Near-Eastern religions including Anatolia and again the Greek depiction of the phoenix is much more similar to depictions found in the Near-East.
quote:I suppose it is absolutely impossible for the most basic concept of a sun-bird or fire-bird in divinity to spread, and incorporated into a local myth. Ever heard of the term 'synchretism'?
Since when does it have to syncretism? Why not a similar convergance of thought?
quote:...and how did this mythical creature, come to become a common global theme rooted in the human psyche?
Indeed, parallel think is something that can happen and does happen, mainly in the area of basic human survival strategies, as well as basic human emotions towards their environment and fellow humans. But now, for a minute, let us think about a concept like the Dragon, as an example you brought forth, in terms of parallel thinking:
People from different parts of the globe simply decided that they should come up with a mythical creature/reptile, that breaths fire and perhaps, flies. It is not possible that the basic concept of such a creature, barring the mythological stories attached to it, first developed at a specific place(s), at a specific point in time(s), and then spread elsewhere, where it would then be molded into local myths, either through direct contact in some cases, or through third party contacts?
Of course it's possible, but in the case of the dragon, the evidence just does not show this and apparently neither does the phoenix. What evidence is there that Native Americans of North America have had contact with the Near-East of Europe to have dragon myths which strikingly resemble each other?
quote:You said it; not I. What I am saying, as with everything else you've attempted to interpret here, are two different things, and this is because, you are bent on putting words into my mouth, and then knocking them down. There is a term for this: it is called creating a strawman. Here is what I have said earlier, with respect to spread of ideas:
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the idea originated somewhere, or in some specific places, and then spread through either trade or conflict to other areas.
...the spread of cultural elements doesn't necessarily have to come through direct contact; it can flow via third parties, in any direction.
What is it about these statements, that you don't understand, for example?
And if you weren't so busy knocking down straw man arguments, what did I say about the pheonix, pertaining to your earlier question?...
Don't know exactly how the Chinese phoenix connects with the Egyptian one [or the Indian one for that matter], other than the fact that they are both birds of the "Sun" or "fire", that they both have long lives, and that the Egyptian one, in particular, is the oldest recorded one to date.
...and then,
What is quite evident however, is the link between the Egyptian phoenix and that of the ancient Greeks.
I never meant to create a strawman, only an example that the phoenix as well as the dragon was not a result of diffusion but convergence of beliefs.
quote:[qb]And now, getting back to your claim about the similarities between the Chinese phoenix and the Japanese phoenix, how do you suppose that came to be?
This may be in fact due to diffusion or even common origin since both cultures are East Asian and not only do both associate the phoenix with the Sun but with the empress.
quote:Well, as far as this concerns the "specifics" I've provided herein, that is your problem; not mine. Those "specifics" remain unrefuted or unadressed, strawman aside.
Again I say those "specifics" don't seem to be strong enough proof of Egyptian origins.
quote:There is no doubt that cosmological elements from the "Near East" have found their way to archaic Greece. There can also be no doubt that cosmological elements from the Nile Valley did the same. Pertaining to which culture, in this aspect, has flowed to archaic Greece more than others, it would be relative term. Are you denying that Nile Valley cosmological elements have ever been incorported into Greek mythology?
You still fail to show if these cosmological elements were truly of Egyptian origin!
As another example, Greek myths state that before the creation of the universe there was only a dark chaos. Many diffusionists would be quick to assume this to be the Egyptian Nun or primeval dark watery chaos from which everything sprang. However, this cosmological theme is also widespread and this theme is also found in the Germanic myth of creation where everything sprang from the dark chaotic void of Gunnangugap. The Sumerian myth of creation actually better resembles Nun in that the dark chaotic primeval source is also watery, yet there is no evidence to suggest Sumerian cosmology was influenced by Egypt.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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YOU don't know whether or not the Greeks adopted the idea from the Egyptians, which I presume is what you meant above, however, I do.
As far as the concept of a firebird being widespread, this point has been acknowledge, and the fact that the differences between the said myths are greater than the similarities, has been acknowledged; so, tell me something that hasn't yet been acknowledged!
The point where some of these myths converge, notwithstanding their respective differences, i.e., the idea of the fire-bird being associated with the sun god, rebirth and connection with Heliopolis, to me, seems a little too coincidental.
however, these characterisitcs of the sun and rebirth are also found in the phoenix of Near-Eastern religions including Anatolia and again the Greek depiction of the phoenix is much more similar to depictions found in the Near-East.
Isn't it apparent that you don't know the contents of the mythology surrounding the Greek phoenix! I suspect that if you did, you wouldn't be denying the idea of the Egyptian sun-bird serving as the prototype of the Greek counterpart.
quote:Djehuti:
quote: Supercar: I suppose it is absolutely impossible for the most basic concept of a sun-bird or fire-bird in divinity to spread, and incorporated into a local myth. Ever heard of the term 'synchretism'?
Since when does it have to syncretism? Why not a similar convergance of thought?
...ever since the archaic Greeks and their successors were known to be syncretistic. Did you understand the question, or you just decided not to answer it?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: ...and how did this mythical creature, come to become a common global theme rooted in the human psyche?
Indeed, parallel think is something that can happen and does happen, mainly in the area of basic human survival strategies, as well as basic human emotions towards their environment and fellow humans. But now, for a minute, let us think about a concept like the Dragon, as an example you brought forth, in terms of parallel thinking:
People from different parts of the globe simply decided that they should come up with a mythical creature/reptile, that breaths fire and perhaps, flies. It is not possible that the basic concept of such a creature, barring the mythological stories attached to it, first developed at a specific place(s), at a specific point in time(s), and then spread elsewhere, where it would then be molded into local myths, either through direct contact in some cases, or through third party contacts?
Of course it's possible, but in the case of the dragon, the evidence just does not show this and apparently neither does the phoenix. What evidence is there that Native Americans of North America have had contact with the Near-East of Europe to have dragon myths which strikingly resemble each other?
That emphasized portion of your comment, is the only part that has any relevancy to the question posed. It is all that was needed to be maintained as a point, pertaining to the question posed. The remaining portion of your comment, is well, just hog wash and as with every other response of yours in this topic, it relates to nothing anybody said.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: You said it; not I. What I am saying, as with everything else you've attempted to interpret here, are two different things, and this is because, you are bent on putting words into my mouth, and then knocking them down. There is a term for this: it is called creating a strawman. Here is what I have said earlier, with respect to spread of ideas:
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the idea originated somewhere, or in some specific places, and then spread through either trade or conflict to other areas.
...the spread of cultural elements doesn't necessarily have to come through direct contact; it can flow via third parties, in any direction.
What is it about these statements, that you don't understand, for example?
And if you weren't so busy knocking down straw man arguments, what did I say about the pheonix, pertaining to your earlier question?...
Don't know exactly how the Chinese phoenix connects with the Egyptian one [or the Indian one for that matter], other than the fact that they are both birds of the "Sun" or "fire", that they both have long lives, and that the Egyptian one, in particular, is the oldest recorded one to date.
...and then,
What is quite evident however, is the link between the Egyptian phoenix and that of the ancient Greeks.
I never meant to create a strawman, only an example that the phoenix as well as the dragon was not a result of diffusion but convergence of beliefs.
Why, do you disagree that there is an evident link between the Egyptian sun-bird and that of the Greeks? If so, what is your basis for this, other than perhaps a reflection of your unfamiliarity with the Greek myth?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: And now, getting back to your claim about the similarities between the Chinese phoenix and the Japanese phoenix, how do you suppose that came to be?
This may be in fact due to diffusion or even common origin since both cultures are East Asian and not only do both associate the phoenix with the Sun but with the empress.
Djehuti, if anything, at least have the decency to be consistent. Your comment just prior to this one, seem to be absolutely ruling out cultural diffusion, pertaining the basic concept(s) of the phoenix, and here you are, accepting the possibility. Which is it?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: Well, as far as this concerns the "specifics" I've provided herein, that is your problem; not mine. Those "specifics" remain unrefuted or unadressed, strawman aside.
Again I say those "specifics" don't seem to be strong enough proof of Egyptian origins.
You are quite funny. What are these "specifics" provided herein by myself, and how have you refuted them, much less addressed them, other than knocking down strawmans, like you are doing right now?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: There is no doubt that cosmological elements from the "Near East" have found their way to archaic Greece. There can also be no doubt that cosmological elements from the Nile Valley did the same. Pertaining to which culture, in this aspect, has flowed to archaic Greece more than others, it would be relative term. Are you denying that Nile Valley cosmological elements have ever been incorported into Greek mythology?
You still fail to show if these cosmological elements were truly of Egyptian origin!
I haven't failed to do anything thus far in this thread. You on the other hand, continues to fail addressing the "specifics", pertaining to the said relationships. All you can do, is offer strawmans as a 'defensive' form of argument; you haven't accomplished anything yet, but I'm willing to wait and see, if this will change.
quote:Djehuti: As another example, Greek myths state that before the creation of the universe there was only a dark chaos. Many diffusionists would be quick to assume this to be the Egyptian Nun or primeval dark watery chaos from which everything sprang. However, this cosmological theme is also widespread and this theme is also found in the Germanic myth of creation where everything sprang from the dark chaotic void of Gunnangugap. The Sumerian myth of creation actually better resembles Nun in that the dark chaotic primeval source is also watery, yet there is no evidence to suggest Sumerian cosmology was influenced by Egypt.
A bunch of rubbish. When you are ready to deal with the "specifics" provided herein, keep me posted. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Isn't it apparent that you don't know the contents of the mythology surrounding the Greek phoenix! I suspect that if you did, you wouldn't be denying the idea of the Egyptian sun-bird serving as the prototype of the Greek counterpart.
I am aware of the contents but again for the third time, such features are also found in the phoenix of Anatolia and the Near-East. Who's to say concept came from Egypt only?
quote:...ever since the archaic Greeks and their successors were known to be syncretistic. Did you understand the question, or you just decided not to answer it?
I understand the question and I agree that the archaic Greeks were indeed syncrenistic based on many of the similarities they had with their neigbors, such as the Koros statues for example. But in terms of mythology, again I don't see any specific links to Egypt even in regards to the phoenix.
quote:That emphasized portion of your comment, is the only part that has any relevancy to the question posed. It is all that was needed to be maintained as a point, pertaining to the question posed. The remaining portion of your comment, is well, just hog wash and as with every other response of yours in this topic, it relates to nothing anybody said.
Well sorry if you couldn't understand my response, but I made my points perfectly clear.
quote:...the spread of cultural elements doesn't necessarily have to come through direct contact; it can flow via third parties, in any direction.
What is it about these statements, that you don't understand, for example?
And if you weren't so busy knocking down straw man arguments, what did I say about the pheonix, pertaining to your earlier question?...
I understand your statements clearly but again, the evidence is not concrete in support of what you are stating about these mythological motifs.
quote:Why, do you disagree that there is an evident link between the Egyptian sun-bird and that of the Greeks? If so, what is your basis for this, other than perhaps a reflection of your unfamiliarity with the Greek myth?
We should all know by now per the antics of Winters that a similarity doesn't necessarily mean a link. Also, as I have stated before, the Greek sun-bird corresponds even closer to that of the Near-East than that of the Benu bird of the Egyptians. Southern Arabia's phoenix is sometimes depicted as Benu or heron, why is this not said to be an Egyptian link? I also forgot to mention that some Native American cultures also hold the myth of a great firebird who represents the sun. Although I doubt they adpoted this from the Japanese, let alone Egypt.
quote:Djehuti, if anything, at least have the decency to be consistent. Your comment just prior to this one, seem to be absolutely ruling out cultural diffusion, pertaining the basic concept(s) of the phoenix, and here you are, accepting the possibility. Which is it?
My reference to diffusion here was with the phoenix of China and Japan. Both China and Japan are East Asian cultures and not only is the creature here depicted very similarly but is also identified mythologically and ritually in the same fashion. The evidence for diffusion is much stronger and if not, a common origin of the concept.
quote:You are quite funny. What are these "specifics" provided herein by myself, and how have you refuted them, much less addressed them, other than knocking down strawmans, like you are doing right now?
LOL YOU are the funny one, failing to acknowledge the points I made and calling them strawmen when in fact they are very relevant to the topic at hand.
quote:I haven't failed to do anything thus far in this thread. You on the other hand, continues to fail addressing the "specifics", pertaining to the said relationships. All you can do, is offer strawmans as a 'defensive' form of argument; you haven't accomplished anything yet, but I'm willing to wait and see, if this will change.
Not really.
quote:A bunch of rubbish. When you are ready to deal with the "specifics" provided herein, keep me posted.
No, just more relevant examples. I have already dealt with the 'specifics', not my problem if you fail to understand them.
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posted
[Please forgive the length of this post and please do not quote this whole lengthy post when replying to it, just the piece you're commenting on. It'd be a drain of resource to keep repeating the whole thing over and over again. Thanks!]
Was this already presented or is it too simplistic?
Herodotus in his Histories 2.48-64 gives his impression on this topic. Being a Greek it may be bery relevant. Below are a few quotes from him. A good analytic source on Greek mythology showing connections through all the ancient world is Graves' The Greek Myths.
quote: the Greeks, however (those I mean who gave the son of Amphitryon that name), took the name from the Egyptians, and not the Egyptians from the Greeks, is I think clearly proved, among other arguments, by the fact that both the parents of Hercules, Amphitryon as well as Alcmena, were of Egyptian origin.
quote: Melampus, who was a wise man, and had acquired the art of divination, having become acquainted with the worship of Bacchus through knowledge derived from Egypt, introduced it into Greece, with a few slight changes, at the same time that he brought in various other practices. For I can by no means allow that it is by mere coincidence that the Bacchic ceremonies in Greece are so nearly the same as the Egyptian- they would then have been more Greek in their character, and less recent in their origin. Much less can I admit that the Egyptians borrowed these customs, or any other, from the Greeks.
quote: Almost all the names of the gods came into Greece from Egypt. My inquiries prove that they were all derived from a foreign source, and my opinion is that Egypt furnished the greater number. For with the exception of Neptune and the Dioscuri, whom I mentioned above, and Juno, Vesta, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids, the other gods have been known from time immemorial in Egypt. This I assert on the authority of the Egyptians themselves. The gods, with whose names they profess themselves unacquainted, the Greeks received, I believe, from the Pelasgi, except Neptune. Of him they got their knowledge from the Libyans, by whom he has been always honoured, and who were anciently the only people that had a god of the name.
quote: After a long lapse of time the names of the gods came to Greece from Egypt, and the Pelasgi learnt them, only as yet they knew nothing of Bacchus, of whom they first heard at a much later date. Not long after the arrival of the names they sent to consult the oracle at Dodona about them. This is the most ancient oracle in Greece, and at that time there was no other. To their question, "Whether they should adopt the names that had been imported from the foreigners?" the oracle replied by recommending their use. Thenceforth in their sacrifices the Pelasgi made use of the names of the gods, and from them the names passed afterwards to the Greeks.
quote: Whence the gods severally sprang, whether or no they had all existed from eternity, what forms they bore- these are questions of which the Greeks knew nothing until the other day, so to speak. For Homer and Hesiod were the first to compose Theogonies, and give the gods their epithets, to allot them their several offices and occupations, and describe their forms; and they lived but four hundred years before my time, as I believe.
quote: ...at Dodona, however, the women who deliver the oracles relate the matter as follows: - "Two black doves flew away from Egyptian Thebes, and while one directed its flight to Libya, the other came to them. She alighted on an oak, and sitting there began to speak with a human voice, and told them that on the spot where she was, there should henceforth be an oracle of Jove. They understood the announcement to be from heaven, so they set to work at once and erected the shrine. The dove which flew to Libya bade the Libyans to establish there the oracle of Ammon." This likewise is an oracle of Jupiter. The persons from whom I received these particulars were three priestesses of the Dodonaeans, the eldest Promeneia, the next Timarete, and the youngest Nicandra- what they said was confirmed by the other Dodonaeans who dwell around the temple.
The Dodonaeans called the women doves because they were foreigners, and seemed to them to make a noise like birds. After a while the dove spoke with a human voice, because the woman, whose foreign talk had previously sounded to them like the chattering of a bird, acquired the power of speaking what they could understand. For how can it be conceived possible that a dove should really speak with the voice of a man? Lastly, by calling the dove black the Dodonaeans indicated that the woman was an Egyptian.
quote: The Egyptians were also the first to introduce solemn assemblies, processions, and litanies to the gods; of all which the Greeks were taught the use by them. It seems to me a sufficient proof of this that in Egypt these practices have been established from remote antiquity, while in Greece they are only recently known.
quote: The Egyptians first made it a point of religion to have no converse with women in the sacred places, and not to enter them without washing, after such converse. Almost all other nations, except the Greeks and the Egyptians, act differently, regarding man as in this matter under no other law than the brutes.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Isn't it apparent that you don't know the contents of the mythology surrounding the Greek phoenix! I suspect that if you did, you wouldn't be denying the idea of the Egyptian sun-bird serving as the prototype of the Greek counterpart.
I am aware of the contents but again for the third time, such features are also found in the phoenix of Anatolia and the Near-East. Who's to say concept came from Egypt only?
Myself and authors, e.g., like the one from whom the earlier notes about the Benu came from. Djehuti, the problem lies with either your reading habbits, or transparent intentional diversion tactics, which you assume others aren't quite observant about. I understand though; it is the ways of a person who is failing miserably to address 'specifics' provided. Earlier, it was mentioned that the very basic concepts of the birds converged, but the differences may be greater than the similarities. As such, who talked about this convergence of basic concepts extending to the superficial features of the sun-birds? That is yet another figment of your imagination, as every thing else you've forwarded in your strawmans. There are obvious links between the Egyptian "phoenix" and that of the ancient Greeks. Now, you claim that you know the contents of the myths surrounding these sun-birds, then how come you aren't able to catch these basic links? What is the Anatolian myth of the sun-bird, and the "Near East", and when & how did these come about? Are these myths older than the Greek one? From what historic sources, are these based on?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: ...ever since the archaic Greeks and their successors were known to be syncretistic. Did you understand the question, or you just decided not to answer it?
I understand the question and I agree that the archaic Greeks were indeed syncrenistic based on many of the similarities they had with their neigbors, such as the Koros statues for example. But in terms of mythology, again I don't see any specific links to Egypt even in regards to the phoenix.
They have incorporated the so-called Near Eastern myths and those from "their neighbors", interacted a lot with the Egyptians, since time immemorial, and just decided to exempt cosmological elements of the Nile Valley at all cost, from being incorporated into their own, as they did with other aspects of culture. With that kind of logic is that , are you for real?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: That emphasized portion of your comment, is the only part that has any relevancy to the question posed. It is all that was needed to be maintained as a point, pertaining to the question posed. The remaining portion of your comment, is well, just hog wash and as with every other response of yours in this topic, it relates to nothing anybody said.
Well sorry if you couldn't understand my response, but I made my points perfectly clear.
Not that I don't understand your response. As with much of your responses on this topic, I fail to see how, other than the first phrase, it addressed the comment, it was supposed to be addressing. On this, my point, is very clear, and is obvious to anyone who is observing our exchanges!
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: ...the spread of cultural elements doesn't necessarily have to come through direct contact; it can flow via third parties, in any direction.
What is it about these statements, that you don't understand, for example?
And if you weren't so busy knocking down straw man arguments, what did I say about the pheonix, pertaining to your earlier question?...
I understand your statements clearly but again, the evidence is not concrete in support of what you are stating about these mythological motifs.
Concrete evidence about what? "Vagueness" is the trait of a losing debater. I have provided specifics of relationships or correlations of specific Egyptian deities with specific ones of Greeks; how have you addressed any of these at this point, other than replacing them with your strawmans?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: Why, do you disagree that there is an evident link between the Egyptian sun-bird and that of the Greeks? If so, what is your basis for this, other than perhaps a reflection of your unfamiliarity with the Greek myth?
We should all know by now per the antics of Winters that a similarity doesn't necessarily mean a link.
Non-sequitur. Disrespecting another discussant in another topic, that has nothing to do with the charges you are attributing to the aforementioned discussant, is yet another weak diversion antic, that loosing debaters resort to; how can you blame them?
quote:Djehuti: Also, as I have stated before, the Greek sun-bird corresponds even closer to that of the Near-East than that of the Benu bird of the Egyptians. Southern Arabia's phoenix is sometimes depicted as Benu or heron, why is this not said to be an Egyptian link?
See my earlier comment and associated questions pertaining to the Greek and these so-called "Near eastern" phoenixes. Can you please address those!
quote:Djehuti: I also forgot to mention that some Native American cultures also hold the myth of a great firebird who represents the sun. Although I doubt they adpoted this from the Japanese, let alone Egypt.
Keep on with the strawmans...at the moment, I am still being very patient as to when you'll actually address the specifics provided.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supecar: Djehuti, if anything, at least have the decency to be consistent. Your comment just prior to this one, seem to be absolutely ruling out cultural diffusion, pertaining the basic concept(s) of the phoenix, and here you are, accepting the possibility. Which is it?
My reference to diffusion here was with the phoenix of China and Japan. Both China and Japan are East Asian cultures and not only is the creature here depicted very similarly but is also identified mythologically and ritually in the same fashion. The evidence for diffusion is much stronger and if not, a common origin of the concept.
Really? Let's retract:
Supercar wrote:
I suppose it is absolutely impossible for the most basic concept of a sun-bird or fire-bird in divinity to spread, and incorporated into a local myth. Ever heard of the term 'synchretism'?
Djehuti: Since when does it have to syncretism? Why not a similar convergance of thought?
...and then, later, wrote:
I never meant to create a strawman, only an example that the phoenix as well as the dragon was not a result of diffusion but convergence of beliefs.
I am not surprised that you refuse to see contradictions within your own comments. For the perceptive, the implications are obvious!
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: You are quite funny. What are these "specifics" provided herein by myself, and how have you refuted them, much less addressed them, other than knocking down strawmans, like you are doing right now?
LOL YOU are the funny one, failing to acknowledge the points I made and calling them strawmen when in fact they are very relevant to the topic at hand.
Please demonstrate to us, how your strawmans have addressed the 'specifics' I have provided herein; how you have "relevantly" addressed each and every relationship perculiar to the "specific" cases mentioned! I predict, we will be seeing more strawmans, perhaps mythical stories about kangaroos, unicorns, lions, and so on, right?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: I haven't failed to do anything thus far in this thread. You on the other hand, continues to fail addressing the "specifics", pertaining to the said relationships. All you can do, is offer strawmans as a 'defensive' form of argument; you haven't accomplished anything yet, but I'm willing to wait and see, if this will change.
Not really.
I agree, you will continue with strawmans, since you can't obviously discredit the specific cases provided as examples. It is the only diversion tool you have at your disposal at this point.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: A bunch of rubbish. When you are ready to deal with the "specifics" provided herein, keep me posted.
No, just more relevant examples.
Relevant to the "specifics" I have provided, how?
quote:Djehuti: I have already dealt with the 'specifics', not my problem if you fail to understand them.
You mean the "specifics", which at the very beginning of this topic, I have exemplified how your reading skills have miserably failed you? Well, if that is all you've got, my friend, then you've accomplished nothing but spam the threads with strawmans. Now that, is your problem. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Myself and authors, e.g., like the one from whom the earlier notes about the Benu came from. Djehuti, the problem lies with either your reading habbits, or transparent intentional diversion tactics, which you assume others aren't quite observant about. I understand though; it is the ways of a person who is failing miserably to address 'specifics' provided. Earlier, it was mentioned that the very basic concepts of the birds converged, but the differences may be greater than the similarities. As such, who talked about this convergence of basic concepts extending to the superficial features of the sun-birds? That is yet another figment of your imagination, as every thing else you've forwarded in your strawmans. There are obvious links between the Egyptian "phoenix" and that of the ancient Greeks. Now, you claim that you know the contents of the myths surrounding these sun-birds, then how come you aren't able to catch these basic links? What is the Anatolian myth of the sun-bird, and the "Near East", and when & how did these come about? Are these myths older than the Greek one? From what historic sources, are these based on?
The Greek pheonix was concieved of as being similar in appearance to a bird of prey, not a heron like a benu. There may be influences on certain beliefs later on like the creature flying to Heliopolis, but I don't think this warrants that the whole concept of the creature itself comes from Egypt.
quote:They have incorporated the so-called Near Eastern myths and those from "their neighbors", interacted a lot with the Egyptians, since time immemorial, and just decided to exempt cosmological elements of the Nile Valley at all cost, from being incorporated into their own, as they did with other aspects of culture. With that kind of logic is that , are you for real?
The phoenix seems to be really minor, if it figured at all in the cosmological beliefs of the Greeks. But as far as cosmological beliefs themselves, usually cultures inherit such beliefs from their ancestors instead of incorporating things foreign. The Greek cosmology reflects this with beliefs from Anatolian and Indo-European ancestors.
quote:Not that I don't understand your response. As with much of your responses on this topic, I fail to see how, other than the first phrase, it addressed the comment, it was supposed to be addressing. On this, my point, is very clear, and is obvious to anyone who is observing our exchanges!
So is my point as well!
quote:Concrete evidence about what? "Vagueness" is the trait of a losing debater. I have provided specifics of relationships or correlations of specific Egyptian deities with specific ones of Greeks; how have you addressed any of these at this point, other than replacing them with your strawmans?
And as I have explained, your correlations are weak. One could find these 'specifics' with Mesopotamian, Chinese, and even Native American deities!
quote:Non-sequitur. Disrespecting another discussant in another topic, that has nothing to do with the charges you are attributing to the aforementioned discussant, is yet another weak diversion antic, that loosing debaters resort to; how can you blame them?[/qb]
The only reason why I brought up Winters is to state that YOU also are making the same mistakes as he!
quote:See my earlier comment and associated questions pertaining to the Greek and these so-called "Near eastern" phoenixes. Can you please address those!
I thought I did.
quote:Keep on with the strawmans...at the moment, I am still being very patient as to when you'll actually address the specifics provided.
Sorry, but how is what I said a strawman?
quote:Really? Let's retract:
Supercar wrote:
I suppose it is absolutely impossible for the most basic concept of a sun-bird or fire-bird in divinity to spread, and incorporated into a local myth. Ever heard of the term 'synchretism'?
Djehuti: Since when does it have to syncretism? Why not a similar convergance of thought?
...and then, later, wrote:
I never meant to create a strawman, only an example that the phoenix as well as the dragon was not a result of diffusion but convergence of beliefs.
I am not surprised that you refuse to see contradictions within your own comments. For the perceptive, the implications are obvious![qb]
I never said diffusion was not possible, but I only ask what is the case that the Greek phoenix specifically derived from Egypt?
quote:[qb]Please demonstrate to us, how your strawmans have addressed the 'specifics' I have provided herein; how you have "relevantly" addressed each and every relationship perculiar to the "specific" cases mentioned! I predict, we will be seeing more strawmans, perhaps mythical stories about kangaroos, unicorns, lions, and so on, right?
Nope, but I will try to address your 'specifics' again.
quote:I agree, you will continue with strawmans, since you can't obviously discredit the specific cases provided as examples. It is the only diversion tool you have at your disposal at this point.
No, not really.
quote:You mean the "specifics", which at the very beginning of this topic, I have exemplified how your reading skills have miserably failed you? Well, if that is all you've got, my friend, then you've accomplished nothing but spam the threads with strawmans. Now that, is your problem.
I don't have a problem but I will try to address you claims again soon enough, especially your claims on Greek deities.
Your insults alone seem indicative that it is YOU who has the problem though.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The Greek pheonix was concieved of as being similar in appearance to a bird of prey, not a heron like a benu.
...and so? What has that to do with the point of convergence, and the Egyptian deity serving as the prototype of the divine bird of the sun-god?
quote:Djehuti: There may be influences on certain beliefs later on like the creature flying to Heliopolis, but I don't think this warrants that the whole concept of the creature itself comes from Egypt.
Oh, now you are admitting that there have been some "influences", which you seem to be ruling out altogether earlier; we are making slight progress, however slow it may be.
The bird being connected with the sun-god, the idea of ressurection, and the bird making its final destination to the sun-city or Heliopolis, where the temple of the sun-god lies, isn't evident enough of the basic links between the Egyptian myth and that of the Greek? What more do you want, an exact duplication of myths, so as to warrent them of being a product of synchretism? Lol.
quote:Djehuti: The phoenix seems to be really minor, if it figured at all in the cosmological beliefs of the Greeks.
If it didn't figure at all in the cosmological beliefs of the Greeks, perhaps we wouldn't be hearing about it, every time the Egyptian Benu is brought up, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Perhaps, even the Romans wouldn't have picked up the Greek mythology!
quote:Djehuti: So is my point as well!
The specific points I have laid down, and the strawmans you resort to; how are these one and same?
quote:Djehuti: And as I have explained, your correlations are weak.
You've simply said it, but you haven't "explained" how the specific points [point by point] I laid down are weak, nor have you provided substantiation to the contrary.
quote:Djehuti: One could find these 'specifics' with Mesopotamian, Chinese, and even Native American deities!
You are so predictable with your resort to strawmans. Why not throw in Jamaica, Timbuktu, Papua New Guinea, or the North and South pole, while you are at it. It still won't address the specifics at hand.
quote:The only reason why I brought up Winters is to state that YOU also are making the same mistakes as he!
The reason you brought him up, is for the same reasons you created other strawmans, which is to run away from the specifics provided. You can't discredit them, so you have to create the illusion that I am a casual cultural diffusion advocate, when in reality, you are running away from the "specifics" I have laid down. Pure and simple.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: See my earlier comment and associated questions pertaining to the Greek and these so-called "Near eastern" phoenixes. Can you please address those!
I thought I did.
How so? Where have you shown us the connection between the Anatolian myth concerning the "Phoenix" and the Greek myth, or other unnamed "Near Eastern" cultures for that matter? Where is the response to the request on when these myths were acquired? Other than your casual reference to some "influences", how have you addressed the request in question?
quote:Sorry, but how is what I said a strawman?
It is a strawman, because it relates to nothing I said or put forth. It is something that you've put on the table, so as to give you some room to knock down claims that weren't made in the first place. I have provided "specifics", each point unique to its own. Your actual addressing these specifics, is still pending.
quote:Djehuti: I never said diffusion was not possible, but I only ask what is the case that the Greek phoenix specifically derived from Egypt?
Thus far, this is precisely what your responses imply, i.e., the impossibility of any cultural diffusion of Kemetic myths into Greek culture. Of course, it is a position which is hard to defend, and which is why, in the face of specific examples provided, you break down and resort to strawmans instead. You've asked this question, even as the answer was provided in an example from an internet website [I posted earlier], which I felt put matters into perspective.
quote:Djehuti: Nope, but I will try to address your 'specifics' again.
It is about time already. Up to this point, about 19 threads already, you haven't addressed or disproven any of the specifics provided. So, by all means, proceed with dealing with nothing else, but the "specifics" provided, and as they were provided, without replacing them with your strawmans.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Supercar: I agree, you will continue with strawmans, since you can't obviously discredit the specific cases provided as examples. It is the only diversion tool you have at your disposal at this point.
No, not really.
You can deny it; but your strawmans are readily available for everyone to see.
quote:Djehuti: I don't have a problem but I will try to address you claims again soon enough, especially your claims on Greek deities.
I agree. It is about time already; it has been long overdue!
quote:Djehuti: Your insults alone seem indicative that it is YOU who has the problem though.
How have I insulted you in anyway, other than state the fact that, the only tool that you seem to have at your disposal, is the resort to strawmans to knock down, and that you haven't really disproven any of the specific examples provided, with their specific points made? It is either that, or your reading skills have to be put into question. You on the other hand, have disrespectfully brought other discussants into the subject, which they have nothing to do with, and ridiculing them. You bring them into the topic, as a diversion tool, and as a way to ridicule me in the process, while the specific issues at hand go unaddressed and unrefuted, with substantiation. You are the only culprit insulting folks here; so once, again, you resort to a strawman. When will you let go of this futile and transparent diversion tactic? You "insult" our intelligence, by your very act of making it seem that we don't notice these diversion antics.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
The phoenix is an entirely mythical bird not related to any type of 'earthly' bird, and is naught but a metaphor to describe a scientific process which began with the Egyptians converting lime into explosive gas.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: ...and so? What has that to do with the point of convergence, and the Egyptian deity serving as the prototype of the divine bird of the sun-god?
The belief in the sunbird is found from Egypt, the Near-East through East Asia all the way to America. What is there specifically to point to it's origins being in Egypt?
quote:Oh, now you are admitting that there have been some "influences", which you seem to be ruling out altogether earlier; we are making slight progress, however slow it may be.
The bird being connected with the sun-god, the idea of ressurection, and the bird making its final destination to the sun-city or Heliopolis, where the temple of the sun-god lies, isn't evident enough of the basic links between the Egyptian myth and that of the Greek? What more do you want, an exact duplication of myths, so as to warrent them of being a product of synchretism? Lol.
Yes the whole part about Heliopolis is of Egyptian origin but I probably not the bird itself.
quote:If it didn't figure at all in the cosmological beliefs of the Greeks, perhaps we wouldn't be hearing about it, every time the Egyptian Benu is brought up, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Perhaps, even the Romans wouldn't have picked up the Greek mythology!
It seems that the Greeks considered the phoenix to be a legend moreso than a deeply an aspect of their cosomology, and contrary to popular belief the Romans borrowed some ideas from Greece but predominantly had their own mythological conceptions.
quote:The specific points I have laid down, and the strawmans you resort to; how are these one and same?
Not really
quote:You've simply said it, but you haven't "explained" how the specific points [point by point] I laid down are weak, nor have you provided substantiation to the contrary.
Again, the story about Heliopolis is of Egyptian orign but where is the evidence that the concept is entirely of Egyptian origin.
quote:Djehuti: One could find these 'specifics' with Mesopotamian, Chinese, and even Native American deitiesYou are so predictable with your resort to strawmans. Why not throw in Jamaica, Timbuktu, Papua New Guinea, or the North and South pole, while you are at it. It still won't address the specifics at hand.
My point is that the belief in the sun bird is widespread, so why do you try to say it is entirely of Egyptian origin?
quote:The reason you brought him up, is for the same reasons you created other strawmans, which is to run away from the specifics provided. You can't discredit them, so you have to create the illusion that I am a casual cultural diffusion advocate, when in reality, you are running away from the "specifics" I have laid down. Pure and simple.
Nope I have already addressed the 'specifics'
quote:Where have you shown us the connection between the Anatolian myth concerning the "Phoenix" and the Greek myth, or other unnamed "Near Eastern" cultures for that matter? Where is the response to the request on when these myths were acquired? Other than your casual reference to some "influences", how have you addressed the request in question?
The belief in the Pheonix is found from Arabia to Babylonia and Assyria and even in some Hurrian (Anatolian) beliefs.
quote:It is a strawman, because it relates to nothing I said or put forth. It is something that you've put on the table, so as to give you some room to knock down claims that weren't made in the first place. I have provided "specifics", each point unique to its own. Your actual addressing these specifics, is still pending.
You have said a lot concerning Greek mythology and it's so-called relation to Egypt.
You claim that the Greek Zeus was Amon even though the Greeks identified Amun with their own Zeus because he was a 'king of the gods'.
You say that Asclepius, god of medicine and healing was Imhotep, even though there are similar deities further north in Europe like the Baltic god Aujbatas whose symbol was the rod and snakes.
You even try to say that Persephone was derived from Osiris! Yes, both are agricultural deities whose deaths represent the agricultural cycle of barreness and fertility but Osiris was a male deity who actually died in life while Persephone was brought live to the underworld and raped by Hades, in much the same way that the Mesopotamian fertility goddes Ninlil was raped by Enlil and brought live into the underworld. Notice the parallels with Mesopotamia are closer.
As far as this phoenix nonsense, again the story of Heliopolis does represent Egyptian influence in the story but may not explain the origins of the creature itself. You also call it cosmological, even though the pheonix is not considered a cosmological being within Greek religious beliefs.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: ...and so? What has that to do with the point of convergence, and the Egyptian deity serving as the prototype of the divine bird of the sun-god?
The belief in the sunbird is found from Egypt, the Near-East through East Asia all the way to America.
Non-sequitur.
quote:Djehuti:
What is there specifically to point to it's origins being in Egypt?
What was said, and I have to keep repeating myself like a broken record simply because you either fail to simply read what others have written or you are pretending to not understand what is being written as a diversion tactic, was that the Egyptian Benu is a prototype of the Greek pheonix, and the reason was provided as to how this could be. Can you refute this reason? Yes or no? You haven't done so yet.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Oh, now you are admitting that there have been some "influences", which you seem to be ruling out altogether earlier; we are making slight progress, however slow it may be.
The bird being connected with the sun-god, the idea of ressurection, and the bird making its final destination to the sun-city or Heliopolis, where the temple of the sun-god lies, isn't evident enough of the basic links between the Egyptian myth and that of the Greek? What more do you want, an exact duplication of myths, so as to warrent them of being a product of synchretism? Lol.
Yes the whole part about Heliopolis is of Egyptian origin but I probably not the bird itself.
You care about what shape the bird is, but I care not...well, because it is irrelevant to the point made.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:If it didn't figure at all in the cosmological beliefs of the Greeks, perhaps we wouldn't be hearing about it, every time the Egyptian Benu is brought up, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Perhaps, even the Romans wouldn't have picked up the Greek mythology!
It seems that the Greeks considered the phoenix to be a legend moreso than a deeply an aspect of their cosomology, and contrary to popular belief the Romans borrowed some ideas from Greece but predominantly had their own mythological conceptions.
The Greek pheonix was a deity and part of their cosmology. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
The Roman pheonix stories, are inherited from the Greeks. Do you have evidence to contrary?
The above is all that matters.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:The specific points I have laid down, and the strawmans you resort to; how are these one and same?
Not really
I agree that what I say, and how you intepret them [and continue to do so], are a universe apart. So now, how about dealing with the specifics laid down?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:You've simply said it, but you haven't "explained" how the specific points [point by point] I laid down are weak, nor have you provided substantiation to the contrary.
Again, the story about Heliopolis is of Egyptian orign but where is the evidence that the concept is entirely of Egyptian origin.
Thanks for acknowledging what was "actually" said, even though you had followed the admission up with another strawman. It's not where you need to be; nonetheless, still a sign of progress.
quote:Djehuti:
My point is that the belief in the sun bird is widespread, so why do you try to say it is entirely of Egyptian origin?
My point is that, start actually addressing what was said, and NOT what wasn't.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:The reason you brought him up, is for the same reasons you created other strawmans, which is to run away from the specifics provided. You can't discredit them, so you have to create the illusion that I am a casual cultural diffusion advocate, when in reality, you are running away from the "specifics" I have laid down. Pure and simple.
Nope I have already addressed the 'specifics'
...not from where any perceptive reader is sitting.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Where have you shown us the connection between the Anatolian myth concerning the "Phoenix" and the Greek myth, or other unnamed "Near Eastern" cultures for that matter? Where is the response to the request on when these myths were acquired? Other than your casual reference to some "influences", how have you addressed the request in question?
The belief in the Pheonix is found from Arabia to Babylonia and Assyria and even in some Hurrian (Anatolian) beliefs.
Okay? What has this to do with the point made? You failed to address an earlier question, as you have with others preceding it, and so, I'll repeat it:
What is the Anatolian myth of the sun-bird, and the "Near East", and when & how did these come about?
Are these myths older than the Greek one?
From what historic sources, are these based on?
quote:Djehuti:
quote:It is a strawman, because it relates to nothing I said or put forth. It is something that you've put on the table, so as to give you some room to knock down claims that weren't made in the first place. I have provided "specifics", each point unique to its own. Your actual addressing these specifics, is still pending.
You have said a lot concerning Greek mythology and it's so-called relation to Egypt.
Yes, I have provided "specific" examples, that still need to be address according to those specifics.
quote:Djehuti:
You claim that the Greek Zeus was Amon even though the Greeks identified Amun with their own Zeus because he was a 'king of the gods'.
Nope, that is what YOU are claiming. See the parent topic, and read the specifics c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y.
quote:Djehuti:
You say that Asclepius, god of medicine and healing was Imhotep, even though there are similar deities further north in Europe like the Baltic god Aujbatas whose symbol was the rod and snakes.
Again, your claim.
quote:Djehuti:
You even try to say that Persephone was derived from Osiris!
Your interpretation; your reading problem. What else is new?
quote:Djehuti: As far as this phoenix nonsense, again the story of Heliopolis does represent Egyptian influence in the story but may not explain the origins of the creature itself. You also call it cosmological, even though the pheonix is not considered a cosmological being within Greek religious beliefs.
I understand; its natural for you call it nonsense, since you can’t address the issues. But the topic is self-explanatory for anyone who can read, and understand its specific direction. As far as the Greek phoenix being cosmological, scroll up to see my earlier question, and see if you can actually address that, without using your usual diversion antics.
But all in all, the specifics remain firm, without challenge. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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No, just more relevant examples. I have already dealt with the 'specifics', not my problem if you fail to understand them.
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