“20 of the R1b-P297 (XL51) ancients have been placed on the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) aDNA chart. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background PDF download is available. Very cool. “
Quote: The goal of the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project is to investigate the history and distribution of the most upstream (or basal) clades of haplogroup R1b-M269/R1b1a2. The project is open to anyone tested to be M269+ P312- U106-. You may join our project by clicking this link.
This project is sometimes called the ht35 project, a legacy of its early history. The original goal of this project, when it was formed in 2007, was to facilitate the discovery of SNP markers that would help differentiate the old "ht15" type of R1b1a2 found primarily in western Europe from the "ht35" type of R1b1a2 found primarily in southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia.
The list of SNPs discovered in members of this project since then and especially since late 2013 is quite long. These discoveries have kept us busy, not least in a need to continually update the names we use.
The data in our project demonstrate that haplogroup R1b1a2 is relatively young, with its most recent common ancestor having lived less than 7,000 years ago somewhere in southwestern Asia.
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posted
Could you give us a breakdown of the estimated age of haplogroup R* ages before and after the split to R1a, R1b, R1c, and the various ages of those sub clades
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posted
And Busby said their was no latitudinal cline....
Quote from FTDNA Two particular TaqI 49a,f haplotypes have been found to be associated with what we now know to be haplogroup R1b1a2. The two haplotypes are ht15 and ht35. ht15 is most commonly found in western European R1b1a2, and most likely represents a mesolithic or neolithic population expansion in western Europe. ht35, the PARENT haplotype of ht15, is most commonly found in ***SOUTH***eastern Europe and ***SOUTH***western ASIA. Elevated levels of ht35 have also been observed among ASHKENAZI AND SEPHARDIC JEWISH POPULATIONS.
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posted
As a told Swenet awhile back. I am not into coalescence age based upon mutation rate. It is an inexact science. It is faulty. Based upon new and developing technique the age of R1b-M269 is 3-6K years old. R* ?. Keep in mind based upon new calculation techniques E1b1a is also aroung the same age. 5-8K years old. That is why I don’t believe they will find E1b1a in aDNA of West Africans. Yorubans as we know them are also …new. They are Neolithics.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Could you give us a breakdown of the estimated age of haplogroup R* ages before and after the split to R1a, R1b, R1c, and the various ages of those sub clades
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posted
I am rummaging through the FTDNA charts …”initially” observation is that the R1b-M269 version in the Yamnya are ….hold your breath……related to Asians like Pathans, Bashkirs, Tabasarns, some Russians. EXACTLYwhere they should be. Lol! Asians and NOT Western Europeans. The only “Europeans” that matches the Yamanya R1b–M269 are the…..Sardnians and Sicilians!!!. Two Islands off the coats of Africa.
This will be resolved soon. As I said the West Europeans version of R1b-M269 could not possibly come from the Steppes.
When I am done I will post charts on ESR.
Man, I love being right!
Europeans are depigmented Africans
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Man. This turned out to be much easier than I thought. If this was my full time job and not a hobby I would have resolved this problem already. Nevertheless.
He is the skinny….Yamanyas are on the Z2103 Z2105 branch of R1b-M269 found predominantly among Central Asians and some Dravidians. The West European Branch of R1b-M269, U106/S21 was NOT found in the Yamanya . These fukcging geneticist knew this that why they were waffling. Lol! Now they are exposed. Ha! Ha! Ha! Will post charts when I have time.
Yamanyas are NOT Ancestors of West Europeans. Lol!
Busby was right all along. MFer!
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posted
This is becoming so clear now. It is only a matter of time. I see this coming to a close 2016. After the R1b-M269 saga is resolved.
My prediction? Both branches of R1b-M269, Z2103/Z2105 and U106/S21 will be “discovered” in a Sahara/Berber population. Just as ALL branches of the Neolithic DNA, LBK, Trukic and Aegan, branches are found in the Sahara INCLUDING Hunter gatherer Loschbour.
The Sahara 'pump" is evident.
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posted
Xyman, it's been known that Western Europeans are primarily R1b whereas the steppe yamana were primarily R1a. Scandinavians and Germanics are hybrid of these two haplogroups whereas the Basque aren't and are more rooted in Europe.
This confirms what I have been saying countless times again and again and which you keep dismissing as does Mike.
The Albino's of Black European settlers settled and went to Northern Europe and bred with Yamana steppe herders as they entered Europe. They created the Germanic people when R1b albino Black Europeans mixed with R1a Eurasian steppe peoples in Northern Europe.
However, the albino black European R1b Western European survived in Western Europe in isolation as wars, diseases, plagues killed off most of the original Black Europeans.
They then repopulated Europe and mixed with the steppe peoples in Central Europe and Scandinavia and spread their mixed genes throughout Europe when the Roman empire fell and the Barbarian invasions started happening.
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posted
To clarify. My prediction. Both branches of R1b-M269 will be found IN Sahara Africa. The West European Version AND the Yamnaya version. Both will increase with increasing distance from Africa. THAT will be conclusive evidence of an African origin of R1b. Tic! Tic! We await. Busby, the ball is in your court. prove to use there is no latitudinal cline.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This is becoming so clear now. It is only a matter of time. I see this coming to a close 2016. After the R1b-M269 saga is resolved.
My prediction? Both branches of R1b-M269, Z2103/Z2105 and U106/S21 will be “discovered” in a Sahara/Berber population. Just as ALL branches of the Neolithic DNA, LBK, Trukic and Aegan, branches are found in the Sahara INCLUDING Hunter gatherer Loschbour.
The Sahara 'pump" is evident.
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quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: Xyman, it's been known that Western Europeans are primarily R1b whereas the steppe yamana were primarily R1a. Scandinavians and Germanics are hybrid of these two haplogroups whereas the Basque aren't and are more rooted in Europe.
This confirms what I have been saying countless times again and again and which you keep dismissing as does Mike.
The Albino's of Black European settlers settled and went to Northern Europe and bred with Yamana steppe herders as they entered Europe. They created the Germanic people when R1b albino Black Europeans mixed with R1a Eurasian steppe peoples in Northern Europe.
However, the albino black European R1b Western European survived in Western Europe in isolation as wars, diseases, plagues killed off most of the original Black Europeans.
They then repopulated Europe and mixed with the steppe peoples in Central Europe and Scandinavia and spread their mixed genes throughout Europe when the Roman empire fell and the Barbarian invasions started happening.
This theory is incongruent because Xyman said the Yamanyas are on the Z2103 Z2105 branch of R1b-M269, not Rb1a.
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posted
I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup. These new discoveries confirm my research first published in 2010 in relation to the spread of the Kushites and king Tut's carry of R1 indicated that it was an African haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup]
Where does R-M207 originiate?
Also what country in Africa has the highest frequency of M173 ?
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup]
Where does R-M207 originiate?
Also what country in Africa has the highest frequency of M173 ?
Don't play stupid; We already discussed this: Africa. Formerly, 207 was called V45.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: Xyman, it's been known that Western Europeans are primarily R1b whereas the steppe yamana were primarily R1a. Scandinavians and Germanics are hybrid of these two haplogroups whereas the Basque aren't and are more rooted in Europe.
This confirms what I have been saying countless times again and again and which you keep dismissing as does Mike.
The Albino's of Black European settlers settled and went to Northern Europe and bred with Yamana steppe herders as they entered Europe. They created the Germanic people when R1b albino Black Europeans mixed with R1a Eurasian steppe peoples in Northern Europe.
However, the albino black European R1b Western European survived in Western Europe in isolation as wars, diseases, plagues killed off most of the original Black Europeans.
They then repopulated Europe and mixed with the steppe peoples in Central Europe and Scandinavia and spread their mixed genes throughout Europe when the Roman empire fell and the Barbarian invasions started happening.
This theory is incongruent because Xyman said the Yamanyas are on the Z2103 Z2105 branch of R1b-M269, not Rb1a.
Clyde I am referring to the mass steppe migrations into Europe well after Europe was settled by blacks/brown people from Southwest Asia and Africa.
It's a fact that there were migrations of R1a carrying people from Central Asia and Siberia like in the Germanic, Scythian, Cimmerian, Sarmatian, Alan, Avar, Slavic, Turkic, Bulgar etc etc migrations into Europe which changed Europe's demographics completely.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup]
Where does R-M207 originate? We need this stated for this thread
Also what country in Africa has the highest frequency of M173 ?
Don't play stupid; We already discussed this: Africa. Formerly, 207 was called V45.
Cylde, for the benefit of the readers, which country in Africa has the highest frequencies of M173 ?
If you don't answer this easy question people are going to get suspicious.
The floor is yours Clyde, please be as concise as possible
Please, nobody help Clyde on this. Let's see if he can back his claim with a location, that's reasonable.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup]
Where does R-M207 originate? We need this stated for this thread
Also what country in Africa has the highest frequency of M173 ?
Don't play stupid; We already discussed this: Africa. Formerly, 207 was called V45.
Cylde, for the benefit of the readers, which country in Africa has the highest frequencies of M173 ?
If you don't answer this easy question people are going to get suspicious.
The floor is yours Clyde, please be as concise as possible
Please, nobody help Clyde on this. Let's see if he can back his claim with a location, that's reasonable.
LOL. Hahaha.This is a stupid question.
M-173 is spread throughout Africa, so the country were it is predominant has nothing to do with the African origin of the R haplogroup.
posted
Clyde, a haplogroup might have a high frequency in one country and an extremely low frequency in another country. I hope you are not trying to hide this very pertinent information. I feel you are bluffing now, stop it and back what you say. This is a very relevant question which country in Africa has the highest frequencies of M173 ? This is step one. Then we will look at diversity and then human remains.
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posted
Yes. About 9 years ago I was caught up in modern dogma of racialism. After getting my head and hands around genetics I am certain that Europeans are a subset of Africans. There were two MAIN migration OOA. The first beginning with the "metapopulation" like La Brana. That is why La Brana, Loschbour, KOS14 all align with Dravidians, Australians etc. The Neolithics replaced these older populations beginning in the Sahara and extending into Europe and Near East and as far as the Harrapan Valley. modern West Africans are part of that Neolithic Package that remained southern Sahara. That is why modern Europeans carry MORE African DNA than on-African DNA. Rosenberg et al and Lazaridis eta al.
The odd thing is R1b-M269 rose to dominance AFTER the Neolithic. The question is how and why? It is clear they are not Neolithics since the haplogroup is clearly NOT within the Neolithic Package.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup. These new discoveries confirm my research first published in 2010 in relation to the spread of the Kushites and king Tut's carry of R1 indicated that it was an African haplogroup.
posted
This explains why Neanderthal DNA has higher frequency IN East Asians and Australians etc than modern Europeans. Sub-Structure. The population that left in the FIRST wave carry longer segments since they are older and are 'isolated" from Africa. The Neolitihc and other modern Africans are NEW(carrying more diversity due to polymorphism) thus carry shorter segments. That is why it took them a while to realize even Africans carry the so called Neanderthal DNA.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: Xyman, it's been known that Western Europeans are primarily R1b whereas the steppe yamana were primarily R1a. Scandinavians and Germanics are hybrid of these two haplogroups whereas the Basque aren't and are more rooted in Europe.
This confirms what I have been saying countless times again and again and which you keep dismissing as does Mike.
The Albino's of Black European settlers settled and went to Northern Europe and bred with Yamana steppe herders as they entered Europe. They created the Germanic people when R1b albino Black Europeans mixed with R1a Eurasian steppe peoples in Northern Europe.
However, the albino black European R1b Western European survived in Western Europe in isolation as wars, diseases, plagues killed off most of the original Black Europeans.
They then repopulated Europe and mixed with the steppe peoples in Central Europe and Scandinavia and spread their mixed genes throughout Europe when the Roman empire fell and the Barbarian invasions started happening.
This theory is incongruent because Xyman said the Yamanyas are on the Z2103 Z2105 branch of R1b-M269, not Rb1a.
Clyde I am referring to the mass steppe migrations into Europe well after Europe was settled by blacks/brown people from Southwest Asia and Africa.
It's a fact that there were migrations of R1a carrying people from Central Asia and Siberia like in the Germanic, Scythian, Cimmerian, Sarmatian, Alan, Avar, Slavic, Turkic, Bulgar etc etc migrations into Europe which changed Europe's demographics completely.
All of the populations mentioned above date only back to 1000-800 BC. The major problem you have is that you believe that Europe was only populated by Black populations carrying R1b, this is a false assumption because Blacks carrying R1a would have also been in Western Europe. The Kushites replaced the the Anu people in many centers around the world after 3000 BC. You need to read Dravidian origins and the west by Dr. N. Lahovary, this book will help you get an understanding of the diverse Black populations that formerly lived in Europe.
The civilization in Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) was founded by Harappans or IVC people and Elamites. The archaeology makes it clear that that the BMAC originated after the decline of the IVC site of Shortughai (c.2400-2200BC) on the Oxus river. Most researchers have noted that the BMAC have strong Elamite affinities. Artifacts from the BMAC site at Altyn depe ruins have terracotta statuettes with Proto Elaimite and linear Sumerian script.
Some researchers have attempted to base an Indo-Aryan origin on the BMAC based on artifacts from Gilund. This is a fantasy because the pottery from Gilund, Rajasthan, and the banks of the Bana river is BRW. The Indo-Aryans used PGW as discussed above.
The exotic goods found at Gilund suggest that the site was a warehouse were goods imported from Central Asia were housed.
The BMAC is associated with Elamites and Harappans--not Indo-Aryan people who did not enter India until 1300 BC. The discovery of BRW at Gilund suggest that the people spoke Dravidian languages--not Indo-Aryan. The BRW ceramic style is found at Harappan sites and the lower levels of Madurai and Tirukkampuliyur at South Indian megalithic sites. This pottery tradition supports the widespread nature of Dravidian populations in North India prior to the Aryan Invasion of India 1300BC.
The Kushana came from Xinjiang. They were not IE speakers. In the Chinese literature they were called Kuishuang and Yuezhi. The Kushana are related to the Qijia culture, not Afanasievo culture of the Steppes. The Qijia culture existed from the upper Weishui Valley in the east, the Huangshui Valley of Qijia in the West, Ningxia and the westernmost Inner Mongolia in the north. Qijia pottery signs are analogous to those found in the Harappan writing and on Harappan pottery
The evidence of Harappans first exploiting the metals in Central Asia, as indicated by the major IVC colony Shortughai in the area. The Dravidians from Harappa established mines along the lapis lazuli mines of Sar-i-Sang in Badakshan from Shortughai. Other lapis lazuli was mined in the Chagai massif of Northern Baluchistan, near the lapis lazuli centres on the Hilmand or the Indus. The archaeological evidence of the association of mining operations and irrigation sites in Central Asia points to the long establishment of Dravidians in Central Asia, as indicated by the discovery of Harappan artifacts at Dashly and Balkhab.
Let's not forget that vessels from the IVBI workshop at Tepe Yahya, have a uniform shape and design. The vessels sharing this style are distributed from the Uzbekistan to the Indus Valley.The intercultural style vessels from Tepe Yahya show clear parallel between Indus Valley, Sumerian and Elamiten sites.
Imported Indus seals have also been found at Altyn-Depe, the large ceremonial center situated in southern Turkmenia.
The early Dravidian miners and explorers probably used the southern Zagros region of Iran, as its dispersal point into Central Asia. This would explain the presence of Dravidian placenames in Central Asia.
Francefort outlined the archaeological data supporting a Dravidian colonization of farming and mining habitats in Central Asia. This would explain the Dravidian substratum in the Kushana/Tocharian language.
The Dravidian substratum supports the view that Harappan Dravidian speakers introduced innovative technological and economic culture traits. It suggest that the majority of people in Central Asia prior to the Harappan settlement of the area were hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads, since the Dravidians probably introduced many items of culture and civilization and trade to the Bactrians, Dravidian was a language served as an early lingua franca linking the urbanized Dravidian speaking people with the Dravidian and non-Dravidian speaking nomadic groups from Bactria in the West, to China and Mongolia.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yes. About 9 years ago I was caught up in modern dogma of racialism. After getting my head and hands around genetics I am certain that Europeans are a subset of Africans. There were two MAIN migration OOA. The first beginning with the "metapopulation" like La Brana. That is why La Brana, Loschbour, KOS14 all align with Dravidians, Australians etc. The Neolithics replaced these older populations beginning in the Sahara and extending into Europe and Near East and as far as the Harrapan Valley. modern West Africans are part of that Neolithic Package that remained southern Sahara. That is why modern Europeans carry MORE African DNA than on-African DNA. Rosenberg et al and Lazaridis eta al.
The odd thing is R1b-M269 rose to dominance AFTER the Neolithic. The question is how and why? It is clear they are not Neolithics since the haplogroup is clearly NOT within the Neolithic Package.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I am happy that after only five years, researchers like yourself are finally recognizing the African origin of R1-M173, that I advocated back in 2010. Everyday we are getting more evidence of the African origin of the R haplogroup. These new discoveries confirm my research first published in 2010 in relation to the spread of the Kushites and king Tut's carry of R1 indicated that it was an African haplogroup.
We have known that Europeans were a subset of Africans, since the 1920's, when it was found that the Khoisan were Cro-Magnon people by Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man. Since these people were the first Europeans naturally Europeans are of African descent.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Europeans are a subset of Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: We have known that Europeans were a subset of Africans, since the 1920's,
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Also included with this second (OOA) group were Albinos
Everybody is in agreement
The first white people were light skinned and straight haired were Africans and were part of one of the intial waves of OOA migration, tens of theosands of years before any known civilization. Blacks were also a part of these early migrations
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Europeans are a subset of Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: We have known that Europeans were a subset of Africans, since the 1920's,
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Also included with this second (OOA) group were Albinos
Everybody is in agreement
The first white people were light skinned and straight haired were Africans and were part of one of the intial waves of OOA migration, tens of theosands of years before any known civilization. Blacks were also a part of these early migrations
I don't think so. .
.
First OoA migrants out of Africa 60-100kya. .
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mike said "second (OOA)" that's around 45 Kya
I don't think so. .
.
The second migration was the Khoisan the ancestors of the modern white Europeans.
.
You're both saying second migration, where's the discrepancy?
Also we are dealing with a reconstruction of this skull Oase 2, Romania, 35kya
European made "reconstruction"
^We must assume the reconstructions made by Europeans are deceptions
Paleolithic Grimaldi
According to Mikean theory the albinos left Africa for a purpose, -to migrate to a climate more hospitable to them
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posted
For the record . The initial OOA were ALL blacks. The black European LA Brana was black like midnight as attested to by his DNA. He carried absolutely no allele for light skin unlike modern Yorubans, just as a melenesians carry all ancestral allele for black skin. Yet again proof Yorubans are part of the Neolithic package and the meta population was Melenesian Dravidians -like .
ALL Neanderthals tested to this point carry ancestral allele for black skin, .,and straight hair , proving black skin has dominated all of "humanity" for at least 300,000years. It is only recently the light skin allele rose to dominance not only in Europeans but the existence in Africans. We became human because of blackness .
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: For the record . The initial OOA were ALL blacks. The black European LA Brana was black like midnight as attested to by his DNA.
Do you realize that La Brana represents neither anything nearly as old as OOA, nor the whole of humanity?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
ALL Neanderthals tested to this point carry ancestral allele for black skin, .,and straight hair , proving black skin has dominated all of "humanity" for at least 300,000years.
You say it proves all of "humanity" for at least 300,000 years had dark skin, nonsense. Do you realize that humanity is comprised of 1-4% neanderthal admixture and anything about the neanderthal does not prove anything about all humaity?
As for the neanderthal genome, show us any quote with article title pertaining to skin of the neanderthal "for the record" to support your claim otherwise it has no credibility
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posted
You go “girl”!! incite and misdirect. Neanderthal skin pigmentation profile has been posted here several times. It can readiliy be found on ESR. Your one-stop-shop.
All ancient humans and humanoids tested thus far have carried ancetarsl allele for DARK skin. Meaning All of humanity was black up to about 6000ya(La Brana included). 600,000years for virgin Blackness.
Also. Not all geneticist belive humans carry Neanderthal admixture. I am one of those. It is ”substructure”. We are in the minority. But time will prove me right as usual. The Neanderthal admixture thing is sensationalism and marketing gimmick to get dollars from the gullible and ignorant…and racist. Why? The premise of Neanderthal Admixture makes absolutely no sense.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
X: We became human because of blackness . D: We became black because of humaness .
Other primates/anthropoids/hominoids are mostly fair-skinned beneath their mosquito-proof fur which protects them against flying biting infectious insects.
We humans lost our fine fur coats when our ancestors flipped their woven bowl nests over shielding them from biters and allowing good sleep on terra firma. Skin color depended environmental selection based on both camouflage and UV, tree-bark tone was predominant in the thick-canopied rainforest and sunlight was dappled, but as they became more populous and successful, they expanded to the forest edge where bright sun and dark shadows were common, and beyond to the open plains (savannah/desert) where sun meets earth directly producing tawny-sandy colors predominated they evolved red-yellow-apricot skin coloration. Since humans are upright bipeds (like leaping lemurs and swinging siamangs) they hunted and foraged omnivorously until they hit natural borders that caused them to refract or follow these boundaries (eg. sea coasts).
The very first (Genus) Homo 5.2ma (48chromosome -> 46) were most likely fair-skinned under a dark fur coat, probably with some or much melanin on exposed skin.
The very first Homo sapiens 300ka were most likely tree-bark toned (not jet-black but dark skin), and of pygmy size, I do not know exactly where but certainly in the tropical rainforest belt.
posted
Not bad. I agree with some of your hypothesis. But I will indulge. One of the few times I will get into hypotheticals.
I agree that light skin IS probably ancestral to dark skin. I said that many times before. But since light skin has an African origin (Shriver et al, Keita et al, Lazaridis et al etc)I will contend that the allele for light skin NEVER dissipated and was always present IN African populations. But for some unknown reason during the Neolithic period it returned to high dominance(the alleles). That would explain “substructure” and why the first humans and humanoids are ALL black skin.
Why do I say we became human because of blackness. Melanin played a key role in cognitive and other development that makes us human. There is a reason Albinos and other light skin humans suffer from so many mental health diseases. It is not only due to lack of diversity but also Melanin deficiency.
Also agree our ancestors ‘development” to humans was in the plains of Africa and not tropical forest regions. And yes, there was a gradual change from light skin, to “tan” skin to eventual black skin. Sarah Tishkoff and Heather Norton speculated on that. That tan skin was the first step forward.
And yes, most likely first humans were small in stature. But as the evidence show most likely there were rapid morphological changes(plasticity). Negritos are not archaic traits nor retention of traits. But co-evolution.
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All ancient humans and humanoids tested thus far have carried ancetarsl allele for DARK skin.
name the allele so that we can see if modern Europeans and East Asians don't have it. You make a ton of unsupported statements. I deal with the the original Egyptsearch readership. "But I said some stuff on ESR" does not qualify as an argument
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Also. Not all geneticist believe humans carry Neanderthal admixture. I am one of those.
So according to you there was no admixture. Fine, then the below unsupported statement doesn't apply to homo sapiens at all
quote:Originally posted by xwhyman:
ALL Neanderthals tested to this point carry ancestral allele for black skin, .,and straight hair , proving black skin has dominated all of "humanity" for at least 300,000 years.
Light Skinned Hunter-Gatherers lived in what is now Sweden 7,700 years ago
The first farmers from the Near East also carried both genes for light skin. Hunter gatherers hunter-gatherers in Spain, Luxembourg, and Hungary however had darker skin
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By comparing the ancient European genomes with those of recent ones from the 1000 Genomes Project, population geneticist Iain Mathieson, a postdoc in the Harvard University lab of population geneticist David Reich, found five genes associated with changes in diet and skin pigmentation that underwent strong natural selection.
First, the scientists confirmed an earlier report that the hunter-gatherers in Europe could not digest the sugars in milk 8000 years ago, according to a poster. They also noted an interesting twist: The first farmers also couldn’t digest milk. The farmers who came from the Near East about 7800 years ago and the Yamnaya pastoralists who came from the steppes 4800 years ago lacked the version of the LCT gene that allows adults to digest sugars in milk. It wasn’t until about 4300 years ago that lactose tolerance swept through Europe.
When it comes to skin color, the team found a patchwork of evolution in different places, and three separate genes that produce light skin, telling a complex story for how European’s skin evolved to be much lighter during the past 8000 years. The modern humans who came out of Africa to originally settle Europe about 40,000 years are presumed to have had dark skin, which is advantageous in sunny latitudes. And the new data confirm that about 8500 years ago, early hunter-gatherers in Spain, Luxembourg, and Hungary also had darker skin: They lacked versions of two genes—SLC24A5 and SLC45A2—that lead to depigmentation and, therefore, pale skin in Europeans today.
But in the far north the team found a different picture in hunter-gatherers: Seven people from the 7700-year-old Motala archaeological site in southern Sweden had both light skin gene variants, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin.
Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency.
Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe
Iain Mathieson et al.
The arrival of farming in Europe beginning around 8,500 years ago required adaptation to new environments, pathogens, diets, and social organizations. While evidence of natural selection can be revealed by studying patterns of genetic variation in present-day people, these pattern are only indirect echoes of past events, and provide little information about where and when selection occurred. Ancient DNA makes it possible to examine populations as they were before, during and after adaptation events, and thus to reveal the tempo and mode of selection. Here we report the first genome-wide scan for selection using ancient DNA, based on 83 human samples from Holocene Europe analyzed at over 300,000 positions. We find five genome-wide signals of selection, at loci associated with diet and pigmentation. Surprisingly in light of suggestions of selection on immune traits associated with the advent of agriculture and denser living conditions, we find no strong sweeps associated with immunological phenotypes. We also report a scan for selection for complex traits, and find two signals of selection on height: for short stature in Iberia after the arrival of agriculture, and for tall stature on the Pontic-Caspian steppe earlier than 5,000 years ago. A surprise is that in Scandinavian hunter-gatherers living around 8,000 years ago, there is a high frequency of the derived allele at the EDAR gene that is the strongest known signal of selection in East Asians and that is thought to have arisen in East Asia. These results document the power of ancient DNA to reveal features of past adaptation that could not be understood from analyses of present-day people.
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As stated the light skin allele is due to migration of Farmers FROM the “south”. Apparently SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 arrived at different times farmers ADMIXING with a black population that had light eyes.
Quote ------ Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe - Iain Mathieson* [1], Iosif Lazaridis 2015
We detect no evidence of lactase persistence in Early Neolithic farming populations like the Linearbandkeramik (LBK), or in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya, despite their use of domesticated cattle (Figure 2).
We also found evidence of selection at two loci that affect skin pigmentation. The derived alleles of rs1426654 at SLC24A5 and rs16891982 at SLC45A2 are, respectively, fixed and almost fixed in present day Europeans23,24. As previously reported7,11,12, both derived alleles are absent or very rare in western hunter-gatherers. suggesting that mainland European hunter-gatherers may have had dark skin pigmentation. SLC45A2******FIRST***** appears in our data at low frequency in the Early Neolithic, and increases steadily in frequency until the present, when it has frequency 1 in all populations except Spanish (IBS, Figure 2; estimated selection coefficient �� =0.020, CI=0.011-0.031). In contrast, the derived allele of SLC24A5 increases rapidly in frequency to around 0.9 in the Early Neolithic, suggesting that most of the increase in frequency of this allele is ***DUE*** to its high frequency in the early farmers who migrated to Europe FROM the southeast at this time, although there is still strong evidence of ongoing selection after the arrival of farming (p=5.5× 10-7, �� =0.025, CI=0.003-0.21).
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BTW. I continue to look for the paper where ancient human MA-1 haplogroup was correct from R to the paragroup Q, typical Asian. I was sloppy in filling that study. I knew it was published probably the later part of this year. This will align with Sardnians and Amazigh carrying BOTH Q and R and recent results have shown.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As stated the light skin allele is due to migration of Farmers FROM the “south”. Apparently SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 arrived at different times farmers ADMIXING with a black population that had light eyes.
Quote ------ Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe - Iain Mathieson* [1], Iosif Lazaridis 2015
We detect no evidence of lactase persistence in Early Neolithic farming populations like the Linearbandkeramik (LBK), or in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya, despite their use of domesticated cattle (Figure 2).
We also found evidence of selection at two loci that affect skin pigmentation. The derived alleles of rs1426654 at SLC24A5 and rs16891982 at SLC45A2 are, respectively, fixed and almost fixed in present day Europeans23,24. As previously reported7,11,12, both derived alleles are absent or very rare in western hunter-gatherers. suggesting that mainland European hunter-gatherers may have had dark skin pigmentation. SLC45A2******FIRST***** appears in our data at low frequency in the Early Neolithic, and increases steadily in frequency until the present, when it has frequency 1 in all populations except Spanish (IBS, Figure 2; estimated selection coefficient �� =0.020, CI=0.011-0.031). In contrast, the derived allele of SLC24A5 increases rapidly in frequency to around 0.9 in the Early Neolithic, suggesting that most of the increase in frequency of this allele is ***DUE*** to its high frequency in the early farmers who migrated to Europe FROM the southeast at this time, although there is still strong evidence of ongoing selection after the arrival of farming (p=5.5× 10-7, �� =0.025, CI=0.003-0.21).
quote: To all of you DOUBTING THOMAS’S out there who distrust the originality of this photograph: It is NOT Photoshopped. I was in the local communal lands looking for my lost Dalmatian dog, and I stopped to ask his mother if she had seen it. While I was talking to her, her son, who was playing with his siblings and friends nearby, caught my eye. I asked her if I could photograph him, and this is the first picture that I took of him – it was possibly his first interaction up close with a white person, and his fascination in me, or in the camera, is plainly evident. I took a few photos of him at the time, and a few more later on a follow-up. An ophthalmologist friend had this to say about his unusual eyes:
”The picture of the little boy with the blue eyes and dark skin probably represents Ocular Albinism or Nettleship-Falls albinism, or Juvenile uveitis. Both conditions cause the pigment of the iris to be less dense.”
quote:Editor's Note: Adam Hickenbotham, an optometrist and clinical researcher at the University of California, Berkeley, contacted us to say he believes Nong has a mild case of ocular albinism. This would explain the boy's lightly-pigmented irises, and would also cause him to have a lower than usual amount of pigment in his retinas. this would make them appear slightly reflective, and would cause Nong to have difficulty seeing in bright light.
These blue eyed black hunter gatherers had ocular albinism. So naturally my hypothesis is correct, the Black European settlers had to have albino's of their own IN NORTHERN EUROPE!
quote: Oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) is an autosomal recessive disorder caused by either complete lack of or a reduction of melanin biosynthesis in the melanocytes. The OCA1A is the most severe type with a complete lack of melanin production throughout life, while the milder forms OCA1B, OCA2, OCA3, and OCA4 show some pigment accumulation over time. Mutations in TYR, OCA2, TYRP1, and SLC45A2 are mainly responsible for causing oculocutaneous albinism.
Recently, two new genes SLC24A5 and C10orf11 are identified that are responsible to cause OCA6 and OCA7, respectively.
So basically White modern Europeans have all four of the mutation genes of TYR, OCA2, TYRP1, and SLC45A2.
quote: Oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) is a heterogeneous and autosomal recessive disorder with hypopigmentation in the eye, hair, and skin color. Four genes, TYR, OCA2, TYRP1, and SLC45A2, have been identified as causative genes for nonsyndromic OCA1-4, respectively. The genetic identity of OCA5 locus on 4q24 is unknown. Additional unknown OCA genes may exist as at least 5% of OCA patients have not been characterized during mutational screening in several populations. We used exome sequencing with a family-based recessive mutation model to determine that SLC24A5 is a previously unreported candidate gene for nonsyndromic OCA, which we designate as OCA6.
Dude, I keep telling you that White Europeans are albino's and the EVIDENCE IS RIGHT HERE! WHITES CARRY FOUR OF THE MUTATED VERSIONS OF THE ALBINISM GENES!
But you and others refuse to agree for some odd reason.
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Carrying any of these four genes TYR, OCA2, TYRP1, and SLC45A2 does not mean a person is albino. Only rare mutated forms of these four genes cause albinism and a child would have to have male and female forms of these genes, one from each parent to have albinism
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I never denied it was Albinism. I just I don't like calling people deragatory names. They are not Dravidian Albinos. They are genetically closer to Africans although many genecits are trying their hardest to disaprove this.
Europe is a stone throw away from Afrios. It makes sense that they be genetically closer to Africans than Asians/Dravidians. It is a North OSuth Cline Africa/Europe. Same as in Asia Dravidians-Melenesians-Australians/light skin Asians to the North.
This is not rocket science.
I am trying to get my hands on an old paper that where this was observed and stated. “ earths peoples are divided in a North-South Cline”. I thought I had it on ESR but can’t find it. Not sure which one of my computers has it also. I posted on it about 4-5 years go. Maybe.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I never denied it was Albinism. I just I don't like calling people deragatory names. They are not Dravidian Albinos. They are genetically closer to Africans although many genecits are trying their hardest to disaprove this.
Europe is a stone throw away from Afrios. It makes sense that they be genetically closer to Africans than Asians/Dravidians. It is a North OSuth Cline Africa/Europe. Same as in Asia Dravidians-Melenesians-Australians/light skin Asians to the North.
This is not rocket science.
I am trying to get my hands on an old paper that where this was observed and stated. “ earths peoples are divided in a North-South Cline”. I thought I had it on ESR but can’t find it. Not sure which one of my computers has it also. I posted on it about 4-5 years go. Maybe.
Xyman, why is it so hard to understand that Northern Europeans are basically the mixed albino's of Dravidians and African Europeans? Why is it unfeasible that when you mix a black albino with an Indian albino, you get a Germanic/Scandinivian person?
I have already shown you proof, the Basque people, the oldest Europeans don't have Haplogroup R1a genes yet Eastern Europeans are full of Haplogroup R1a to over 40%. Wheras R1b is more prevalent in Western Europe.
The blondest people in Europe come from the Baltics which is full of Haplogroup R1a, which is a foreign gene to Europe and has origins in Central and South Asia.
This means that Central and Northern Europeans are essentially hybrids of African and Dravidian albino's. Haplogroup R1a is FOREIGN to Europe!
Just go look at a genetic table of Europeans!
Also if Whites are not Dravidian albino's or part Draividian albino's, how come they LOOK EXACTLY LIKE WHITE PEOPLE??????!?!!?
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quote: The Migration Period, better known as the Barbarian Invasions also referred to as the Völkerwanderung (in German),[1] was a period of intensified barbarian invasion in Europe, often defined from the period when it seriously impacted the Roman world, as running from about 376 to 800 AD[2][3] during the transition from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. This period was marked by profound changes both within the Roman Empire and beyond its "barbarian frontier".
The barbarians who came first were Germanic tribes such as the Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii, Jutes and Franks; they were later pushed westwards by the Huns, Avars, Slavs, Bulgars and Alans.[4] Later barbarian invasions (such as the Viking, Norman, Hungarian, Moorish, Turkic, and Mongol invasions) also had significant effects (especially in North Africa, the Iberian peninsula, Anatolia and Central and Eastern Europe); however, they are outside the scope of the Migration Period.
quote: coming from the East continued to arrive in this region and tried to conquer the local, settled peoples (Romanised population, Sarmatians, Germanic tribes, Slavs). The local Late Antique and Germanic communities of the Carpathian Basin came into contact with the Eurasian steppe peoples in an age when movements of individuals and communities became possible on a larger scale, in the huge area between the Chinese Great Wall and the Atlantic Ocean, between Scandinavia and the Mediterranean Sea.
In post-Roman Europe, the Avarian state, organised along steppe-nomadic lines, was unlike any other. After the brief Hunnic rule, the Carpathian Basis saw the formation of competing Germanic tribal kingdoms. On the territory of the province of Pannonia (western Hungary), the Germanic Ostrogoths and Suevi co-existed with the remainder of the Romanised population, the territory between the rivers Danube and Tisza (central Hungary) was inhabited by the Germanic Sciri, and east of the river Tisza (eastern Hungary, northwestern Romania), Germanic Gepidae lived together with the remaining Sarmatian population.
At the beginning of the 6th century, Germanic Langobardians (or Lombards), arriving from around the river Elbe, settled down in Pannonia, but after the appearance of the nomadic Avars in AD 568 they moved on to Italy.
The Avars, a people of Inner- and Central-Asian origin, joined by East European nomads, settled down in the Carpathian Basin.
The Avar Khaganate was the first entity to unite under one rule the different regions of the Carpathian Basin: Transdanubia (western Hungary), the Great Hungarian Plain (eastern Hungary) and Transylvania (western Romania). The Avars from the eastern steppes conquered the Germanic and Romanised population, and, in the course of campaigns against the Byzantine Empire, carried off to the Carpathian Basin a great number of prisoners of war from the Balkans. From that time on, immigration of Slavic groups is likely to have taken place.
So far, about 60,000 graves of the Avar Age have been excavated in the Carpathian Basin, and about a third of these burials can be dated to the Early Avar Age (AD 568-700).
quote: The Migration period, also called the Barbarian Invasions or Völkerwanderung (German: wandering of the peoples), was a period of human migration that occurred roughly between the years 300 to 700 CE in Europe, marking the transition from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages.
These movements were catalyzed by profound changes within both the Roman Empire and the so-called 'barbarian frontier'. Migrating peoples during this period included the Goths, Vandals, Bulgars, Alans, Suebi, Frisians, and Franks, among other Germanic and Slavic tribes.
Migrations of peoples, although not strictly part of the 'Migration Age', continued beyond 1000 CE, marked by Viking, Magyar, Moorish, Turkic and Mongol invasions, and these also had significant effects, especially in Eastern Europe.
Xyman, as you can see from the above, the original population of Europe was swamped by these barbarians and climatic changes. These barbarians came from Central Asia and Siberia and carried Haplogroup R1a to Europe.
So Xyman if you know that there were large scale central Asian foreign migrations into Europe and they overwhelmed and mixed with the previous African European populations there, why do you find my idea so hard to grasp?
Doesn't this simply prove that White Northern Europeans are mixtures of Dravidian albino's from Central Asia like the Alans, Scythians, Avars, Slavs, Goths, Germanics, if all these groups are not from Europe and carried the R1a haplogroup to Europe in major waves?
And this is evident in the genes of present day Europeans and especially Scandinivians and Germanic peoples and Eastern Europeans. Why do you disbelieve me?Posts: 1558 | From: US | Registered: Sep 2015
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Xyman it's my contention and belief that White Europeans in Central, Northern and North-West Europe are infact tri-racials or mulatto's.
But I don't mean mulatto in the sense of a black person mixing with a white person and producing a brown-caramel complexioned child/children.
I mean mulatto in the sense of a black ALBINO or a black person WITH ALBINISM mixing with a White Eurasian migrant who is also the product of albinism.
Basically a mulatto of an Indian person and a Black African person except both of these persons have one form of albinism or another. As a result you would get extremely pale and albino looking people in these regions with African bodies and Indian features.
In the most Northern parts of Europe, you got the Saami, so it would make sense that that whites here would be tri-racials of black albino/Indian albino/Saami and genetic data shows that.
In Eastern Europe and Russia, the Whites seem to change and here you see the ORIGINAL migrant Germanic/Slavic/Avar/Alan/Scythian remnants of the migrants that entered into Europe during the migration period.
These people are different from Western Europeans, and they have haplogroup R1a. These are the Dravidian Albino's Mike keeps talking about.
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"The DNA of the Neolithic woman resembled ancestors mostly Middle Eastern in origin... resembled a darker southern European woman than a red-haired Irish lass"
"I am surprised see how different the [dark complexioned] Neolithic woman, who was found in 1855 and lived over 5,000 years ago, was from the [light complexioned blue eyed] three male skeletons analyzed. With just millennia separating them, their genomes shouldn't have looked so strikingly different - which suggests that some major migration really must have occurred. Based on the men's DNA, the researchers suspect that their ancestors may have come to Ireland from the Pontic Steppe - a region Eastern Europe that sits over the Black Sea, including what's now the Ukraine [Crimea].(Kambiz Kamrani @ Anthropology.net) http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113
"We also observe a strong signal of continuity between modern day Irish populations and the Bronze Age individuals, one of whom is a carrier for the C282Y hemochromatosis mutation (blood-Iron hoarding genes), which has its highest frequencies in Ireland today." --- Ukraine soil is very low in Iodine, but Iron too? Seawater is very low in Iron, coastal emigrants? I'd say the King Arthur/Atlantis/Atrahasis tale originated at Crimea (7.7ka) and was brought west to Eire by 4ka.
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"Based on the men's DNA, the researchers *****suspect**** that their ancestors"
Do you want to know why they used the word "suspect". They are CYA. They know they are not from the Steppes.
Closer analysis shows that the Steppes carry a different version of R1b to Western Europeans. Also confirmed by Busby et al. Infact the "Europeans" that carry R1b closest Steppes are ....Sardinians and Italians. two islands of the coast of Africa
Understand the game bro and play on words by the authors.
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If you haven't connected the dots as yet. If the libegae came from the Steppes then Western Europeans would carry a subset or similar R1b as the Steppes Yamanya. They don't which means it is all BS. Hence the word "suspect". They know it is BS.
Keep in mind also they are assuming there were no women from the Steppes. lol! So all the supposed Steppe SNP came from the men. lol! It is all BS. Ha! Ha!
The Yamanya did NOT invade Western Europe.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: "Based on the men's DNA, the researchers *****suspect**** that their ancestors"
Do you want to know why they used the word "suspect". They are CYA. They know they are not from the Steppes.
Closer analysis shows that the Steppes carry a different version of R1b to Western Europeans. Also confirmed by Busby et al. Infact the "Europeans" that carry R1b closest Steppes are ....Sardinians and Italians. two islands of the coast of Africa
Understand the game bro and play on words by the authors.
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