posted
The pressure was getting too heavy. Even Tuareg people in Africa (Mali) have confirmed this to be true.
The irony is just too astounding for Columbus to have traveled to the Americas by "accident", while the Spaniards and Portuguese always had African maritime navigators on board. See the Niño brothers (The four Niño brothers, Pedro Alonso, Francisco, Juan and Bartolomé), Estevanico (Mustafa Azemmouri), Juan (Jan) Rodriguez. And more...
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: The pressure was getting too heavy. Even Tuareg people in Africa (Mali) have confirmed this to be true.
The irony is just too astounding for Columbus to have traveled to the Americas by "accident", while the Spaniards and Portuguese always had African maritime navigators on board. See the Niño brothers (The four Niño brothers, Pedro Alonso, Francisco, Juan and Bartolomé), Estevanico (Mustafa Azemmouri), Juan (Jan) Rodriguez. And more...
I always thought that as well. Abubakari II was trying to explore and his expedition was documented in more than one source, all one has to do is look in Brazil
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quote:Originally posted by King Charlie Bass: Abubakari II was trying to explore and his expedition was documented in more than one source, all one has to do is look in Brazil
you would have to have a quote and old source for that to be considered documented
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Only the Yte West questions this doc.
Arabics recorded from the mouth of Gonga Musa. The mansa explained it was how he came to rule.
Local Malien recordists disliked abdication. They muffled the occurrence, very negative about it.
Portugal was banking on W Afr maritime experience when it came to the Tordesillas line. Goods laden vessels into the Atlantic from W Afr coast is recorded by one of the Colon's.
There's archaeology evidence in the Americas where winds and currents would naturally steer boats to land. All kind of contorted refutals about them from 3 Monkeys style investigators, ie, ain't tryin ta hear that see
Only jealousy or the African Landlubber myth fends Abubakari II voyage from yte POV history.
Since the expedition is old old news thing now to do is flesh things out more n was done on ES at least 3 X before.
The OP 'book' is an (expanded) 16 page extract of the authors' Retake Your Fame: Black Contribution to World Civilization Vol. 1
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posted
Egypt was sailing the seas before Christ. 5000 bce. See: the Sea peoples wars. Historians know nothing of the origins of the sea people, they guess it was Greeks. it was a war that lasted for 100 years it seems.
Even China had very advanced ships before Christ.
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posted
^ Yes, but as far as we know Egypt only sailed the Mediterranean and Red Seas, and for a long time had maritime domination of only the Red Sea.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Only the Yte West questions this doc.
Arabics recorded from the mouth of Gonga Musa. The mansa explained it was how he came to rule.
Local Malien recordists disliked abdication. They muffled the occurrence, very negative about it.
Portugal was banking on W Afr maritime experience when it came to the Tordesillas line. Goods laden vessels into the Atlantic from W Afr coast is recorded by one of the Colon's.
There's archaeology evidence in the Americas where winds and currents would naturally steer boats to land. All kind of contorted refutals about them from 3 Monkeys style investigators, ie, ain't tryin ta hear that see
Only jealousy or the African Landlubber myth fends Abubakari II voyage from yte POV history.
Since the expedition is old old news thing now to do is flesh things out more n was done on ES at least 3 X before.
The OP 'book' is an (expanded) 16 page extract of the authors' Retake Your Fame: Black Contribution to World Civilization Vol. 1
I remember decades ago when I was in my high school library I came across a book I skimmed through about probable early African contacts in the Americas it wasn't They Came Before Columbus by Sertima but another book by a white author, but it did bring up in the very first chapter the Chronicle of Abubakari II and later in the book it talked about Thor Heyerdahl's trans-Atlantic journeys in his Ra and Ra II papyrus boats.
My point is, there were Europeans especially in the Iberian royal courts who heard about Abubakari's claims and this is documented. Just as the British courts got word from Ireland of Irish monk St. Brendan the Navigator who sailed west and discovered a new land there.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Yes, but as far as we know Egypt only sailed the Mediterranean and Red Seas, and for a long time had maritime domination of only the Red Sea.
Before man could move tons of fertile soil, and make fertilizers, I be thinking the Red Sea was no place to dominate. It was nothing but hot air and rocky shores. Just like the Nile River.
I see it could be used for a trade rout. but it does not look like it would be worth the time to travel 2500 mile by sea to Madagascar or India, every thing else's in the red sea area is hot, dry and rock.
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posted
^ The Red Sea was like it is today a maritime highway. In some ways sailing the Red Sea is easier than sailing the Nile. Traveling south in the Nile is go upstream against the current and there are cataracts that divide the Nile. The Egyptians were the first to have maritime dominance of the Red Sea sailing down the African coasts to trade with Nubians and the Land of Punt.
I recall another thread where it was suggested the Egyptians even explored further south down the Swahili coast and perhaps South Africa but I can't find the thread at the moment.
World's oldest depiction of a stern-mounted steering rudder (c. 1420 BC)
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@DJ
Yup No doubt the Portuguese who'd sailed to W Af in the mid 1400's knew the deal on Bubakar II and more.
I think u thinkin of Bradley, the Iceman Inheritance author, who claimed he never heard of vanSertima, claimed he got the idea from his little boy looking at a globe. Useful book, used to be excerpts from it here on ES. This post includes some Bradley. Search his name and follow the 19 hits.
posted
If you can find history of south America, you may think that some one lived there long ago, then the Egyptians show up. Life is recorded for 1000s of years, then another group of Egyptians show up, as the hieroglyphics change a bit. They then recorded history as a war breaks out of the two tribes in South America, They seem like they have new laws and wipe out the first Egyptian ways, and restart the recorded history of South America. The people of South America, (recorded) seem to come and then disappear 3 times.
In South America, They found keys to teach the egyptian hieroglyphics to the ancient, fist arrived Egyptians, So I guess, south America was discovered by egypt, long before recorded history.
They also have done some studies on mummies from Egypt, and found plants that are said to only come from south America, coca plant and tobacco. they used the plant tobacco to keep bugs away from the dead meat.
Just found this, that may support my thoughts on history of Americas.
That boat looks like it is in Fresh Water, the sailor is getting a drink of water from the Nile River. Or the boat is looking for something like fresh water. Something to consume. Or, since the guy hanging down may have been added later, as the painting has no official spot for him to even be in the panting.
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That boat looks like it is in Fresh Water, the sailor is getting a drink of water from the Nile River. Or the boat is looking for something like fresh water. Something to consume. Or, since the guy hanging down may have been added later, as the painting has no official spot for him to even be in the panting.
Well observed, but I don't know the meaning of him hanging down reaching into the water.
Tomb of Menna - funeral boat Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Gregws: If you can find history of south America, you may think that some one lived there long ago, then the Egyptians show up. Life is recorded for 1000s of years, then another group of Egyptians show up, as the hieroglyphics change a bit. They then recorded history as a war breaks out of the two tribes in South America, They seem like they have new laws and wipe out the first Egyptian ways, and restart the recorded history of South America. The people of South America, (recorded) seem to come and then disappear 3 times.
In South America, They found keys to teach the egyptian hieroglyphics to the ancient, fist arrived Egyptians, So I guess, south America was discovered by egypt, long before recorded history.
They also have done some studies on mummies from Egypt, and found plants that are said to only come from south America, coca plant and tobacco. they used the plant tobacco to keep bugs away from the dead meat.
Just found this, that may support my thoughts on history of Americas.
quote:Originally posted by Gregws: If you can find history of south America, you may think that some one lived there long ago, then the Egyptians show up. Life is recorded for 1000s of years, then another group of Egyptians show up, as the hieroglyphics change a bit. They then recorded history as a war breaks out of the two tribes in South America, They seem like they have new laws and wipe out the first Egyptian ways, and restart the recorded history of South America. The people of South America, (recorded) seem to come and then disappear 3 times.
In South America, They found keys to teach the egyptian hieroglyphics to the ancient, fist arrived Egyptians, So I guess, south America was discovered by egypt, long before recorded history.
They also have done some studies on mummies from Egypt, and found plants that are said to only come from south America, coca plant and tobacco. they used the plant tobacco to keep bugs away from the dead meat.
Just found this, that may support my thoughts on history of Americas.
The claim of Egyptians making their way to the Americas is one that's least plausible. Egyptians lived all the way in the northeastern corner of Africa. I think if one were to give Africans credit of reaching the so-called 'New World' it would be West African natives. Even though Egyptians were fellow Africans, to give them credit for something accomplished in another part of the continent is as erroneous as attributing that credit to Pheonicians or some other non-African group.
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posted
I think that the Italian mobs are in-fact, Arians, A Alchemists project under taken by a religion from long ago, breeding, like the Egyptians where very good at breeding dogs, they also breed humans.
I in-fact believe that they took Europeans to breed with the population in Gambia, and then to refine the breeding to perfection, hence, The Arian Race.
A lot of the people in Senegal have European traits. Some even have blonde afro hair, some have blue eye, some have both, and they even have light shades of skin. Senegal have a big port for shipping
The Gambino crime family (pronounced [ Gamˈbiːno ] is one of the "Five Families" that dominate organized crime activities in New York City, United States. I think they are related to Gambia, And I cant be sure, but, I guess the first Gambino to the USA, Gambino family, have Sub Sahara DNA.
The Gambia, officially the Republic of The Gambia, is a country in West Africa that is almost entirely surrounded by Senegal with the exception of its western coastline along the Atlantic Ocean. It is the smallest country within mainland Africa.
The first written records of the region come from Arab traders in the 9th and 10th centuries. In medieval times, the region was dominated by the Trans-Saharan trade and was ruled by the Mali Empire. In the 16th century, the region came to be ruled by the Songhai Empire. The first Europeans to visit the Gambia River were the Portuguese in the 15th century, who attempted to settle on the river banks, but no settlement of significant size was established. Descendants of the Portuguese settlers remained until the 18th century. In the late 16th century, English merchants attempted to begin a trade with the Gambia, reporting that it was "a river of secret trade and riches concealed by the Portuguese."
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Monday, 29 April 2013 African Ancestry of the Italians
Methods/Principal Findings
A total of 583 individuals were sampled from across the Italian Peninsula, from ten distant (if homogeneous by language) ethnic communities — and from two linguistic isolates (Ladins, Grecani Salentini). All samples were first typed for the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region and selected coding region SNPs (mtSNPs).
This data was pooled for analysis with 3,778 mtDNA control-region profiles collected from the literature. Secondly, a set of Y-chromosome SNPs and STRs were also analyzed in 479 individuals together with a panel of autosomal ancestry informative markers (AIMs) from 441 samples.
The resulting genetic record reveals clines of genetic frequencies laid according to the latitude slant along continental Italy – probably generated by demographical events dating back to the Neolithic. The Ladins showed distinctive, if more recent structure. The Neolithic contribution was estimated for the Y-chromosome as 14.5% and for mtDNA as 10.5%. Y-chromosome data showed larger differentiation between North, Center and South than mtDNA. AIMs detected a minor sub-Saharan component; this is however higher than for other European non-Mediterranean populations.
The same signal of sub-Saharan heritage was also evident in uniparental markers. Conclusions/Significance
Italy shows patterns of molecular variation mirroring other European countries, although some heterogeneity exists based on different analysis and molecular markers. From North to South, Italy shows clinal patterns that were most likely modulated during Neolithic times.
Ibn Amir Hajib, a member of the Mamluk court, noted how Mansa Musa strictly observed prayer and knew the Qur’an, but had maintained “the custom that if one of his subjects had a beautiful daughter, he brought her to the king’s bed without marriage.” Ibn Amir Hajib informed Mansa Musa that this was not permitted under Islamic law, to which Mansa Musa replied, “Not even to kings?” Ibn Amir Hajib said, “Not even to kings.” Henceforth Mansa Musa refrained from the practice.
"I" in the sentence is Ibn Amir Hajib
so the meaning is
I, Ibn Amir Hajib, asked their ruler Sultan Mansa Musa
I just mention this so we realize Mansa Musa is the sultan discussed not Ibn Amir Hajib who was conversing with him according to this account.
So this text is the (encyclopedia) Masalik Al-Absar recorded by al-Umari who died in 1349. Did the text say "white berbers" in Arabic? Maybe. Then it was translated into French by Gaudefroy-Demombynes in 1927. The English version I think was published in the late 1950s.
Anyway if "white berbers" is correct it could be "white" like is used in Mauritania today when they talk about "white moors" (Beydane) and "Black Moors" (Haratin). (the word Beydane means white) but some lighter brown, Arab or berber looking people would be described this way, "white berber" rather than someone looking like Donald Trump.
this is how the CIA describes the demographics of Mauritania
quote: black Moors (Haratines - Arab-speaking slaves, former slaves, and their descendants of African origin, enslaved by white Moors) 40%,
white Moors (of Arab-Berber descent, known as Beydane) 30%,
Sub-Saharan Mauritanians (non-Arabic speaking, largely resident in or originating from the Senegal River Valley, including Halpulaar, Fulani, Soninke, Wolof, and Bambara ethnic groups) 30%
The state’s limited capacity to provide basic public services, coupled with persistent inequalities, undermine its legitimacy and authority. Ethnic bias persists in all spheres of life. Discrimination targets Afro-Mauritanians and Haratine, while Beydane dominate the political sphere and occupy most elite government and military positions. --Policy Brief for the European Development Fund
so what do these "white moors" Beydane look like?
Ould Ghazouani, President of Mauritania_______ Mohamed Ould Abdel Aziz, former President of Mauritania
Ould Abdel Aziz, former President of Mauritania
I don't know if the original Arabic scholar meant this but if the term "white berber" is in the original text it could be similar to people like the above.
Mansa Musa from map attributed to Abraham Cresques, 1375
from Masalik Al-Absar by AL-UMARI (d. 1349) _________________________________
Anyway putting aside what is or what is not meant by "white moors" in the text>
wikipedia:
Abu Bakr II (fl. 14th century), also spelled Abubakri and known as Mansa Qu, may have been the ninth mansa of the Mali Empire. He succeeded his nephew Mansa Mohammed ibn Gao and preceded Mansa Musa. Abu Bakr II abdicated his throne in order to explore "the limits of the ocean". Virtually all that is known of Abu Bakr II is from the account of al-Umari. Al-Umari visited Cairo after Mansa Musa stopped there during his historic hajj to Mecca, and recorded a conversation between Musa and his host, Abu'l Hasan Ali ibn Amir Habib. According to Musa, Abu Bakr became convinced that he could find the edge of the Atlantic Ocean, and outfitted two expeditions to find it.
So this text above (below the globe picture) is virtually everything known about Abubakari II
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quote:Originally posted by Gregws: If you can find history of south America, you may think that some one lived there long ago, then the Egyptians show up. Life is recorded for 1000s of years, then another group of Egyptians show up, as the hieroglyphics change a bit. They then recorded history as a war breaks out of the two tribes in South America, They seem like they have new laws and wipe out the first Egyptian ways, and restart the recorded history of South America. The people of South America, (recorded) seem to come and then disappear 3 times.
In South America, They found keys to teach the egyptian hieroglyphics to the ancient, fist arrived Egyptians, So I guess, south America was discovered by egypt, long before recorded history.
They also have done some studies on mummies from Egypt, and found plants that are said to only come from south America, coca plant and tobacco. they used the plant tobacco to keep bugs away from the dead meat.
Just found this, that may support my thoughts on history of Americas.
The claim of Egyptians making their way to the Americas is one that's least plausible. Egyptians lived all the way in the northeastern corner of Africa. I think if one were to give Africans credit of reaching the so-called 'New World' it would be West African natives. Even though Egyptians were fellow Africans, to give them credit for something accomplished in another part of the continent is as erroneous as attributing that credit to Pheonicians or some other non-African group.
You made a great point, but we at Egyptsearch (to my knowledge) have not studied/ focused enough on the marine history of ancient Egyptians. What we focused on mostly was cultural and the physical anthropological aspects.
It's plausible that ancient Egyptian traveled through the Mediterranean-sea, along the North African Mediterranean-coast to West Africa, towards the Americas. Of course for now this is my theory. When we think of ancient Egyptian Maritime we think of the Nile and Red Sea. But Phoenicians came out of Egyptians as a subset, or at least that is what data shows. I think E-V22 can be used as a tracer. E-V22 is found all over the Sahara Sahel, from East to West African including Egypt and in snippets along the Mediterranean-coast of Europe. It also explains all these dark skinned people we have seen on murals, heads etc. from the Levant.
quote: E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews, in addition to the propagation of agriculture. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain. However, the Mediterranean route for the diffusion of agriculture (see map above) went through the exact same regions. It is therefore impossible to know at present which of the two periods (Neolithic or Classical Antiquity) played the stronger role in the spread of V22 around the Mediterranean.
[…]
Phoenician, Greek and Roman diffusions of E-M34
The classical antiquity brought new waves of colonisation across the Mediterranean. The first colonists were Phoenicians, who came from present-day Lebanon and the Tartus province of Syria. The Phoenicians possessed a variety of paternal lineages reflecting the complex ancient history of the Middle East. One of them was E-M34 (notably Levantine clades like Y15558 and Z21421), which makes up about 15% of modern Lebanese Y-DNA, but was probably higher before the Greek, Roman, Arabic, Byzantine, medieval crusader and Ottoman occupations altered the local gene pool. E-M34 is the main Middle Eastern variety of E1b1b and is thought to have arrived with the Proto-Semitic people in the Late Copper to Early Bronze Age. The Phoenicians would have spread E-M34 to Cyprus, Malta, Sicily, Sardinia, Ibiza and southern Iberia.
quote: “This involved comparing historically documented Phoenician sites with neighboring non-Phoenician sites for the identification of weak but systematic signatures shared by the Phoenician sites that could not readily be explained by chance or by other expansions.
PCS3+ scores strongly as a Phoenician-colonization candidate and is strongly associated with the SNP haplogroup E3b, but it does not show the wide geographic coverage that the other PCS+S demonstrate. It represents the strongest of the lower-coverage STR+S. [...]
Both PCS1+ and PCS2+ contain multiple haplogroups, primarily J2 but including J*(xJ2) and E3b, with PCS1+ containing the greatest diversity. [...]
The Phoenicians were a distinctive and independent civilization that dominated the Mediterranean Sea during the first millennium BCE, emerging from a coastal section of the Eastern Mediterranean, including the four main Bronze Age maritime cities of Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, and Arwad and located in the modern countries of Lebanon and southern Syria.”
~P. A. Zalloua et al., Identifying genetic traces of historical expansions: Phoenician footprints in the Mediterranean, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 83(5):633-642, 2008 DOI:
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: this is how the CIA describes the demographics of Mauritania
The same organization that told the world that Nelson Mandela was terrorist. The same organization that collaborated in destabilizing many African, Asian and Latin American countries, including Liberia (home of the former enslaved Africans). The same organization that is rooted in racism and has helped to assassinate many Pan-African-Black leaders, we are to believe to speak truth on Black/ African history? Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ The same organization that did drug experimentation on US citizens in public and brainwashing experiments on citizens and made money selling drugs to citizens (mainly black citizens).
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It's plausible that ancient Egyptian traveled through the Mediterranean-sea, along the North African Mediterranean-coast to West Africa, towards the Americas. Of course for now this is my theory. When we think of ancient Egyptian Maritime we think of the Nile and Red Sea.
But how plausible is this? Is it possible? Of course, but how probable? We have no evidence whatsoever of Egyptians contacts in the western Mediterranean let alone West African coast, not to mention the Americas. Meanwhile Africans already colonized the Canary Islands and Bissagos Islands. We think of the Nile and Red Sea when we think of Egyptian maritime affairs because these are the two areas they dominated. Technically the Nile is riverine while maritime refers specifically to seas so really the Red Sea mainly and partially the Mediterranean as they sailed the eastern Mediterranean as well but we have NO evidence they sailed the western Mediterranean let alone Atlantic coast.
quote:But Phoenicians came out of Egyptians as a subset, or at least that is what data shows. I think E-V22 can be used as a tracer. E-V22 is found all over the Sahara Sahel, from East to West African including Egypt and in snippets along the Mediterranean-coast of Europe. It also explains all these dark skinned people we have seen on murals, heads etc. from the Levant.
E-V22 predates dynastic Egypt and its spread to both the Levant and other parts of North Africa. I don't know how you could say this is evidence of West African contact.
Why not give credit to native West Africans for trans-Atlantic contact?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But how plausible is this? Is it possible? Of course, but how probable? We have no evidence whatsoever of Egyptians contacts in the western Mediterranean let alone West African coast, not to mention the Americas. Meanwhile Africans already colonized the Canary Islands and Bissagos Islands. We think of the Nile and Red Sea when we think of Egyptian maritime affairs because these are the two areas they dominated. Technically the Nile is riverine while maritime refers specifically to seas so really the Red Sea mainly and partially the Mediterranean as they sailed the eastern Mediterranean as well but we have NO evidence they sailed the western Mediterranean let alone Atlantic coast.
Perhaps nobody ever researched it that well, and started to connect some dots? I mean they did trace the Phoenicians routes. And Phoenician had close contact with Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: E-V22 predates dynastic Egypt and its spread to both the Levant and other parts of North Africa. I don't know how you could say this is evidence of West African contact.
Why not give credit to native West Africans for trans-Atlantic contact?
I should have posted this along,
"E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups." ~Hisham Y. Hassan, Peter A. Underhill, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza, and Muntaser E. Ibrahim Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
"E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80% in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco" ~Fulvio Cruciani The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages
"Saho, Eritrea (N=94) E-V22: score = 88.3% Turkana, Kenya (N=6) E-V22: score = 33.3% Gurage, Ethiopia (N=7) E-V22: score = 28.6%" ~Trombetta et al. A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
"Interestingly, this ancestral cluster includes populations like Fulani who has previously shown to display Eastern African ancestry, common history with the Hausa who are the furthest Afro-Asiatic speakers to the west in the Sahel, with a large effective size and complex genetic background.23 The Fulani who currently speak a language classified as Niger-Kordofanian may have lost their original tongue to as sociated sedentary group similar to other cattle herders in Africa a common tendency among pastoralists. Clearly cultural trends exemplified by populations, like Hausa or Massalit, the latter who have neither strong tradition in agriculture nor animal husbandry, were established subsequent to the initial differentiation of haplogroup E. For example, the early clusters within the network also include Nilo-Saharan speakers like Kunama of Eritrea and Nilotic of Sudan who are ardent nomadic pastoralists but speak a language of non-Afro-Asiatic background the predominant linguistic family within the macrohaplogroup.
[...]
The Sahel, which extends between the Atlantic coast of Africa and the Red Sea plateau, represents one of the least sampled areas and populations in the domain of human genetics. The position of Eritrea adjacent to the Red Sea coast provides opportunities for insights regarding human migrations within and beyond the African landscape." ~Eyoab I Gebremeskel1,2 and Muntaser E Ibrahim1 European Journal of Human Genetics (2014) 22, 1387–1392; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.41; published online 26 March 2014 Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism EJHGOpen
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posted
^ Yes, E-V22 spread throughout the Sahara prior to dynastic Egypt so I don't know what this has to do with Egyptian contacts in West Africa. Also you are correct that Phoenicians did have maritime activity in the western Mediterranean and even colonized that region so there is a higher chance of Phoenicians reaching the Guinea coast of West Africa than the Egyptians. No offense but all your claims seem to be nothing more than wishful thinking instead of factual evidence.
In all likelihood if trans-Atlantic contact was made by Africans it would have been by West Africans alone. Why involve Egyptians when there is no evidence for such? It sounds like the old Egyptian diffusionist arguments of Eurocentrics that whenever Africans elsewhere particularly Sub-Saharans accomplish something it has be due to Egyptian influence whether directly through culture or indirectly through genetic ancestry.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ This is argument is not West Africans could't have travel to the Americas by themselves. Btw, the time difference between Abubakari II and the ancient Egyptians is about 2000 years. It's merely a proposition because of the close contact these groups had. As I said, there is no actually evidence (yet), because it was never studied that history in that manner (from what I know). However there's a relations between the groups in cultural and physical appearances.
The fact that Phoenicians had contact with people in West Africa and also with Egyptians tells me that there is a possibility for the Egyptians to have traveled similar routes.
Btw, would be phenomenal if remains are found in the Americas with E-V22.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The fact that Phoenicians had contact with people in West Africa ...
Yes our taste for occasional Lebanese cuisine in a Senegalese's diet goes that far back. Heehee They say the supporting primary doc is a 'fake' or some sort.
posted
It's somewhat off topic, but I post this because I just found out about this while looking for board games.
quote: Mancala, Oware, Bao (Throughout Africa)
Mancala is one of the oldest games in the world, dating back thousands of years. Pits have been found carved into the roofs of ancient Egyptian tombs in Luxor and Thebes. You may know the game as bao, mancala, oware, ayo, omweso, enkeshui or aweet.
There are in fact more than 200 versions of this "count and capture" game, played throughout Africa, all with slightly different rules In North and West Africa it's common to use two rows of pits, in Ethiopia they play with 3 rows, and in East and southern Africa, they play with four rows. Some games have "stores" at the end of each board, others do not.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Old physically simple mentally complex as chess. Long time players on the continent move at lightening speed. Gotta be sharp to detect cheating.
You can play Cows and Kraals using an egg carton and buttons.
It has been played with pepples and scooped out holes in the soil.
There was a e-version on the net in the early 2000's that might still be around.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@tL u might like this translation? It's clearer about exactly who said what.
quote: al-Umari hints in his narrative that Muslims attempted to discover the actual contour of Africa through exploration. He reports that the Sultan of Mali dispatched fleets to sail around the continent, although he does not say exactly when:
quote:Ibn Amir Hajib said: I asked the Sultan Musah how the kingdom fell to him. He said,
He (Ibn Amir Hajib) continued: He was reprimanded. He said:
“After that, this sultan equipped two thousand ships, a thousand for himself and men he took as company, and a thousand for provisions and water. Then he made me his deputy and sailed out to the Encompassing Sea with his company. And this was the last time he was seen and all of those who were with him; and the rule fell to me alone.”
posted
yes from the book " Mapping the Chinese and Islamic Worlds " . Did you see the part on the Mountains of the Moon?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Nah, I got the cut rate World Map of al-‘Umari #226.1 version
quote:The first geographers to depict the correct triangular shape of Africa were Chinese working sometime during the latter part of the Yuan dynasty. No Islamic maps before this time display a triangular Africa. Fuat Sezgin thinks that Muslim seafarers traveled to West Africa before Bartolomeu Dias went to South Africa and found the Cape of Good Hope. He even argues that “[w]hen Portugal was still under Muslim protection, many Islamic explorers attempted to reach China from Lisbon on the western route across the Atlantic.” Yet we could expect Islamic maps to show Africa more accurately if they had frequently traveled along the west coast of Africa. However, if the Muslims who conducted the most vigorous activities in this region did not know the shape of Africa, how could Chinese cartographers draw the continent so exactly? Some other small pieces of evidence show that credit goes to North African merchants who sailed as far as the southern tip of Africa.
Did the Chinese accurately map the Ruwenzori? Does it play any part in Chinna myth or legend?
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-couldn't figure out how to get to the right page and couldn't find copy-able version but maybe somebody else can
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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