posted
Today, people that are African or "black" are more commonly associated with slavery in Egypt. But in in ancient times, a lot of the laborers came from Asia. Not only that, but even in northern Egypt we don't see the ancient samples having had enough SSA ancestry to attribute it to African slaves. Not only do the Egyptian rulers talk about a massive inflow of Asiatics in the north, northern samples have virtually no SSA ancestry. Just dumping here estimates and demographic information as it comes along.
quote:Many slaves laboured on the estates of the pharaohs, the nobility and the priests. Seti I announced on the Wadi Halfa stela how he had endowed Min-Amen's temple at Buhen, so that his storehouse was filled with male and female slaves from the captivity of his majesty, L.P.H. Ramses III is said to have given 113,000 to the temples during the course of his reign. The slaves who found themselves serving the royal family [14] or the nobility were generally the lucky ones. Their life was often less hard than that of the native peasants. The children of a few of these slaves, foreigners or Egyptians, who had exceptional ability, made themselves indispensable to their masters and rose to high positions in the bureaucracy or married into their former owners' families after being set free.
Also from this source:
quote:According to Bagnall and Frier, 1994, the slave population in Middle Egyptian towns amounted to 13.5% in Roman times, while in the country it was about 8.5%. F. Rodriguez Adrados, L. A. Ray, G. Van Dijk, History of the Graeco-Latin Fable, 1999, think that outside Alexandria the slave population did not exceed six to seven percent.
It was also much more easier to socially integrate into Egyptian society as a slave than it'd be a chattel slave in the European colonies. Slaves didn't as often inherit the slave status their parents originally had. They weren't segregated, and legally unable to produce families with Egyptian natives for many generations.
quote:-In the same tradition, P.M Fraser, a historian who has investigated areas outside of Ptolemaic Egypt and who prepared the second edition of Rostovtzeff's Social and Economic History of the Hellenistic World, gives the highest of the current estimates of the slave population at Alexandria. According to Fraser, out of a total population of 1,000,000 persons, 600,000 were free and the rest were slaves.
posted
Wouldn't most of their non-Egyptian African slaves have come from their conflicts with Kush and other polities in the Sudanese Sahara rather than far south of the desert? You should know by now that most of those "Nubian" populations cluster closer to ancient Upper Egyptians than they do with most West/Central Africans in cranial and dental studies. I agree that, during the New Kingdom period, a larger proportion of the foreign slaves Egypt would have taken in would have come from the Middle East and Mediterranean Basin. But even if there were a large number of slaves from further up the Nile, their genetic signature might not look "sub-Saharan" in a hypothetical genetic study.
posted
Two issues... By this standard America has slavery today.
Unlike what happened in ancient Rome for instance, where the trade in slaves was often in the hands of rich merchants and took place in slave markets, the Egyptian slave trade was seemingly small scale [30]. During pharaonic times no slave markets seem to have existed. But even if slavery was never as pervading in Egypt as it was to be in other ancient societies, such as the Greek or Roman, it appears that slaves were traded widely from the New Kingdom onwards. Slaves were sold all over the Middle East, and Egypt was an, albeit rather insignificant, partner in these exchanges.
SSA ancestry is not required to be black, besides from ancient Egypt's POV they were SSAs.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
If you compare it to mass European slavery yes it was. Some slave states had nearly half of their populations enslaved. Rome had much higher numbers than Egypt too. Still Asiatics integrated a lot easier and faster than blacks in modern times. Meaning that as Asiatics Egyptianized and integrated, the slave populations were probably not from the same surviving (and segregated) bloodlines the way they were in chattel slavery, aparthied, Jim Crow, etc. anyway:
quote:2. The Booty Lists from the Asiatic Campaigns of Amenhotep II and Thutmose III.
Redford declares that “at no point in the history of the country during the New Kingdom is there the slightest hint of the traumatic impact [that] such an event” as the “loss of a servile population” must have had upon Egypt.129 This bold declaration must be strongly contested. At the conclusion of both campaign narratives recorded on the Memphis Stele, the scribe meticulously listed the spoils, with their quantities, that were taken as plunder. By comparing the booty lists recorded after the conquests of Amenhotep II and Thutmose III, it will be seen whether A2 is distinguished among these campaigns, and if it might attest to the exodus or the post-exodus events. The focus of A2 was upon the spoils that Amenhotep II reaped. “A record of the plunder that his majesty carried off: 127 princes of Retenu; 179 brothers of princes; 3,600 Apiru; 15,200 Shasu; 36,300 Kharu; 15,070 Nagasuites/Neges; 30,652 of their family members; total: 89,600 people, and their endless property likewise; all their cattle and endless herds; 60 chariots of silver and gold; 1,032 painted chariots of wood; 13,500 weapons for warfare.”130 Regarding the “89,600” total prisoners, the sum is actually 101,128 when the numbers are added.131 The error may be a mere mistake in addition, as the individual numbers are probably more reliable than the recorded sum.132 Therefore, a final tally of 101,128 is preferred over 89,600 for the total number of prisoners. Before contrasting A2 with other contemporary campaigns, it should be noted that the Egyptians confiscated 1,082 chariots, which, along with the 13,500 weapons, would be critical for replacing the “600 select chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt” that were lost in the Red Sea (Exod 14:7).
So in summary they estimate one of his campaigns is closer to 101k than 89k because:
36,300 Kharu; 15,070 Nagasuites/Neges; 30,652 of their family members; 15,200 Shasu; 3,600 Apiru; 127 princes of Retenu; 179 brothers of princes;
should be bout 101,128 captives
quote:The military campaigns of Thutmose III, which derive from The Annals of Thutmose III, also will be abbreviated: his first Asiatic campaign (T1), sixth (T6), and seventh (T7). The prisoners taken on the various campaigns are compiled as follows: T1 = 5,903 captives; T6 = 217 captives; T7 = 494 captives; A1 = 2,214 captives; and A2 = 101,128 captives.
In total, the annals of Thutmose III account for 109,956 people. Many "Egyptologists" want to downplay mass Asiatic immigration or importation because it's not at all in the interests of the mainstream narratives in the west or in east to consider it. Biblical researchers and theologians are more interested in religion than racial or ethnic politics so there's certainly merit to reviewing their supportive material too. So at a population of about 2.9 million, these raids imported 3% of Egypt's total population. There was probably more but this is a conservative estimate. It'd be great if we could gather more data during this time.
quote: SSA ancestry is not required to be black, besides from ancient Egypt's POV they were SSAs.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: If you compare it to mass European slavery yes it was. Some slave states had nearly half of their populations enslaved. Rome had much higher numbers than Egypt too. Still Asiatics integrated a lot easier and faster than blacks in modern times. Meaning that as Asiatics Egyptianized and integrated, the slave populations were probably not from the same surviving (and segregated) bloodlines the way they were in chattel slavery, aparthied, Jim Crow, etc. anyway:
I'm talking 2019 with mass incarceration.
There was virtually no slavery outside of POWs and it wasn't generational. That's America 2019.Slavery is legal for prisoners ie the one thing Kanye seemed to get.
quote:2. The Booty Lists from the Asiatic Campaigns of Amenhotep II and Thutmose III.
Redford declares that “at no point in the history of the country during the New Kingdom is there the slightest hint of the traumatic impact [that] such an event” as the “loss of a servile population” must have had upon Egypt.129 This bold declaration must be strongly contested. At the conclusion of both campaign narratives recorded on the Memphis Stele, the scribe meticulously listed the spoils, with their quantities, that were taken as plunder. By comparing the booty lists recorded after the conquests of Amenhotep II and Thutmose III, it will be seen whether A2 is distinguished among these campaigns, and if it might attest to the exodus or the post-exodus events. The focus of A2 was upon the spoils that Amenhotep II reaped. “A record of the plunder that his majesty carried off: 127 princes of Retenu; 179 brothers of princes; 3,600 Apiru; 15,200 Shasu; 36,300 Kharu; 15,070 Nagasuites/Neges; 30,652 of their family members; total: 89,600 people, and their endless property likewise; all their cattle and endless herds; 60 chariots of silver and gold; 1,032 painted chariots of wood; 13,500 weapons for warfare.”130 Regarding the “89,600” total prisoners, the sum is actually 101,128 when the numbers are added.131 The error may be a mere mistake in addition, as the individual numbers are probably more reliable than the recorded sum.132 Therefore, a final tally of 101,128 is preferred over 89,600 for the total number of prisoners. Before contrasting A2 with other contemporary campaigns, it should be noted that the Egyptians confiscated 1,082 chariots, which, along with the 13,500 weapons, would be critical for replacing the “600 select chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt” that were lost in the Red Sea (Exod 14:7). http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2010/02/04/Amenhotep-II-and-the-Historicity-of-the-Exodus-Pharaoh.aspx
So in summary they estimate one of his campaigns is closer to 101k than 89k because:
36,300 Kharu; 15,070 Nagasuites/Neges; 30,652 of their family members; 15,200 Shasu; 3,600 Apiru; 127 princes of Retenu; 179 brothers of princes;
should be bout 101,128 captives
he military campaigns of Thutmose III, which derive from The Annals of Thutmose III, also will be abbreviated: his first Asiatic campaign (T1), sixth (T6), and seventh (T7). The prisoners taken on the various campaigns are compiled as follows: T1 = 5,903 captives; T6 = 217 captives; T7 = 494 captives; A1 = 2,214 captives; and A2 = 101,128 captives.In total, the annals of Thutmose III account for 109,956 people. Many "Egyptologists" want to downplay mass Asiatic immigration or importation because it's not at all in the interests of the mainstream narratives in the west or in east to consider it. Biblical researchers and theologians are more interested in religion than racial or ethnic politics so there's certainly merit to reviewing their supportive material too. So at a population of about 2.9 million, these raids imported 3% of Egypt's total population. There was probably more but this is a conservative estimate. It'd be great if we could gather more data during this time.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I'm a lil fuzzy minded at the moment. I know remains specific to Abusir el Meleq yielded DNA. Is there DNA from other sites below Asyut to support the broad term "northern" in these statements?
quote:Originally posted by Ase: ... in northern Egypt we don't see the ancient samples [....] ... northern samples have ...
.
Thuya's STR profile exists in Upper Egypt and Sudan. After them, her closest near match is Somalia 'SSA'.
'sub-Sahara', of course, isn't limited to W Afr. No matter many how times that association's made. Somalia is in so-called SSA. Check the Horn SSA zone. South Sudan's not on the maps. Very roughly its border runs from where Chad and CAR meet to where the Blue Nile crosses Ethiopia's border.
posted
Ase, this topic was covered several times before though longer ago including here.
But to get to your point, the institute of slavery that was practiced in ancient Egypt was the same as the rest of Africa in that most slaves were captives of war or from enemy states or groups, though overall slaves were a minority in Egypt. This is in stark contrast to say Greek and Roman societies whose economies were largely depended on slave labor and therefore slaves actually made up the majority of those cultures. Also like other African societies, the slaves in Egypt were not viewed as chattel but as human beings indebted to the state of Egypt and therefore were not only eligible for emancipation but had the opportunity to move up in Egyptian society as a citizen. Unlike in Greco-Roman society where the chances of a slave's freedom are much slimmer but that the slave had no rights at all like chattel even to his/her own body.
Also, the Egyptians like other Africans and even peoples in the Middle East could sell themselves into slavery to pay off debts.
And despite the lingering misconception, slaves were not allowed to build sacred monuments like temples and pyramids because such edifices were only allowed to be built by freeborn natives.
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quote:The military campaigns of Thutmose III, which derive from The Annals of Thutmose III, also will be abbreviated: his first Asiatic campaign (T1), sixth (T6), and seventh (T7). The prisoners taken on the various campaigns are compiled as follows: T1 = 5,903 captives; T6 = 217 captives; T7 = 494 captives; A1 = 2,214 captives; and A2 = 101,128 captives.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: I'm talking 2019 with mass incarceration.
There was virtually no slavery outside of POWs and it wasn't generational. That's America 2019.Slavery is legal for prisoners ie the one thing Kanye seemed to get.
Thutmose III conducted at least 15 campaigns in 20 years. He was an active expansionist ruler, sometimes called Egypt's greatest conqueror or "the Napoleon of Egypt." He is recorded to have captured 350 cities during his rule and conquered much of the Near East from the Euphrates to Nubia during seventeen known military campaigns. The Mesopotamians and their kinsmen living in Syria refused to pay tribute and declared themselves free of Egypt.
Undaunted, Thutmose immediately set out with his army. He crossed the Sinai desert and marched to the city of Gaza which had remained loyal to Egypt... ________________________________
So if Thutmose was out conquering other nations so they could pay tribute to Egypt and these nations defended themselves then it would be justified to make their soldiers into slaves? How does that work?
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posted
^ In the Egyptian mindset, Asia was a threat to Egyptian power ever since the Hyksos takeover of the Delta. Note that imperialism (other than the unification of Upper and Lower Kemet) was never an institution until after the Hyksos expulsion. The conquest of not only Asiatic territories but also Nubian ones was a response to Egypt's near annihilation at the hands of the two groups.
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posted
War between nations does not require or justify captured soldiers to be made into slaves and "preemptive strikes" resulting in vassal tribute payers
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posted
I know other threads have been made on this. However, few have considered what it means for population affinity. Back then I imagine people assumed it didn't matter. When people do imagine the impact of slavery it's always when discussing SSA or "black" Africans, not Asiatics, where a lot if not the overwhelming majority of the slaves would've came from. The Abusir researchers for example, didn't think that their sample could've been the result of mass immigration or slavery despite talking about mass migrations from Canaan.The fact that Asiatic and Greek names/writing in the tombs was ignored as well. The trope of slavery is reserved for "blacks" only, while Asiatic ancestry is "supposed" to be there.
The irony is that by the Roman period 13% of Middle Egypt in particular were slaves. Remember that 1% foreign inflow can change a population over several thousand years. But when you multiply that rate by 13 times, the rate of change goes from several thousand years, to a mere 530 years. Amenhotep II captured over 100k people accounting for 3-4 percent of the total population. This would if done regularly produce a complete change in as little as 1750 years.
But if the Egyptians were already mixed to begin with, this amount of time it'd take to see samples as they've been found in the north go down dramatically. In the absence of a census (for most of AE history) documents on immigration or enslavement offer a conservative estimate on what was happening at the time.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: War between nations does not require or justify captured soldiers to be made into slaves and "preemptive strikes" resulting in vassal tribute payers
Thutmose came from the 18th Dynasty. The 17th Dynasty controlled a third of Egypt while 2/3s was controlled by foreigners. You could argue that they did what they had to do to prevent what happened in the past from happening again. They did not have a prison system or a slave reliant economy. I have heard the term for slave used synonymous with priest.I'm not sure if this is really slavery. If it is then isn't the US practicing slavery today?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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They started out clubbing somebody and displaying decapitated bodies
Yes this was the nature of the early wars or conflicts between Ta Shemu (Upper Egypt) and Ta Mehu (Lower Egypt). Funny how Euronuts never equate this to the "tribal wars" of SS Africans even though the very same tactics and war rituals were employed, and never do you hear anything of this predynastic conflict being a "race war" even though experts have longed noted certain general differences in phenotype between the two regions.
quote: War between nations does not require or justify captured soldiers to be made into slaves..
It does if the enemy soldiers are to recompense the winning nation especially economically for the loss of resources if not socially for the loss of lives! In modern times winning nations usually exact tribute in money and resources, but in ancient times the enemy soldiers pays the price directly through his own labor. Again, this is different from your Western forebears who saw foreign peoples or states as beasts of burden to give themselves more leisure time.
quote:..and "preemptive strikes" resulting in vassal tribute payers
Yes and again, this comes from the mentality that the foreign nations must be 'tamed' to prevent any further incursions into Egypt. Suffice to say, this actually worked but may have also backfired in that when other foreign powers saw the might and wealth of Egypt through its intrusion, Egypt itself became fair game for conquest. Or rather what goes around comes around.
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posted
^ Not so much my personal claim as it is the claim of the vast majority of Egyptologists. Do you have any claims to the contrary? If so, what is your reasoning?
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: [quote][qb]I have heard the term for slave used synonymous with priest. I'm not sure if this is really slavery. If it is then isn't the US practicing slavery today?
I think you're confused by the term hm or hem which has the general meaning of 'servant'. The generic term for priest in Egyptian is hem-neter meaning 'servant of god'. It's the same confusion with the Hebrew word avd or aved which is cognate with the Arabic abd or abed. The general Semitic root means 'servant' but can be applied to slave as a slave as slavery is a specific type of servitude. This is why many people think the Bible advocated for slavery when actually the form of slavery practiced by the Israelites was rather indentured servitude with many Israelites selling themselves into servitude or their children into servitude of wealthier houses but not as chattel slaves.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No doubt some seen in paintings like in Kha em Waset's and others' tombs.
quote:
he military campaigns of Thutmose III, which derive from The Annals of Thutmose III, also will be abbreviated: his first Asiatic campaign (T1), sixth (T6), and seventh (T7). The prisoners taken on the various campaigns are compiled as follows: T1 = 5,903 captives; T6 = 217 captives; T7 = 494 captives; A1 = 2,214 captives; and A2 = 101,128 captives.
In total, the annals of Thutmose III account for 109,956 people. Many "Egyptologists" want to downplay mass Asiatic immigration or importation because it's not at all in the interests of the mainstream narratives in the west or in east to consider it. Biblical researchers and theologians are more interested in religion than racial or ethnic politics so there's certainly merit to reviewing their supportive material too.
So at a population of about 2.9 million, these raids imported 3% of Egypt's total population.
I think Egypt was no more mixed, at the start, than the Levant was.
Egypt is African. Nation state started by river Africans. Delta Africans started no nation or state. Delta Africans weren't even confederated. River Africans forced Delta Africans into the nation state. River Africans invented the delta marsh state. They appropriately named it Ta Mehh.*
Delta Africans maybe had a very minor Levantine demographic. What do Pleistocene-Holocene climatic conditions indicate? Contacts between Mediterranean Africa and the Levant during the Last Arid Maximum. Little, if any, contact between Delta and the Lower River Valley until the African Humid Period.
Domestic sheep/goat remains suggest River African connections with Levantines. In this case apparently Levantine fauna were received, not people. In historic epochs, the Red Sea hills was a corridor into Egypt for Levantines. Traverse was regulated starting in the Middle Kingdom.
It's worth checking -sty/-stet suffixed ethnonyms, Medja Nehhesu, Shasu, Beduin interrelations. From the Nubian Desert, to the Eastern Desert & Red Sea hills, to Sinai, to the Negev & Levant.
This corridor, outside though adjacent to delta and valley, was it ever really part of the Egypt and Kush nation states?
* Ta Mehhu had [multiple] ethnic components [is my guess]. • Ta Mehh is a place name not an ethnic name. It designates the northern/papyrus region of the Nile Delta. It is the word translated as Lower Egypt.
Anybody could've been living there. Apparently, folk always lived just south of the delta since the Middle Stone Age. Many folk originating west of the delta and the Fayum settled near the delta. A smattering of folk migrated back and forth from the Levant to east of the delta for livestock fodder and trade but were never so much permanent settlers.
It's my take that the Narmer Palette shows all three of these major ethnies and maybe even one unguessed ethny.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Today, people that are African or "black" are more commonly associated with slavery in Egypt. But in in ancient times, a lot of the laborers came from Asia. Not only that, but even in northern Egypt we don't see the ancient samples having had enough SSA ancestry to attribute it to African slaves. Not only do the Egyptian rulers talk about a massive inflow of Asiatics in the north, northern samples have virtually no SSA ancestry. Just dumping here estimates and demographic information as it comes along.
From where did you (they) get all this weird stuff?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Ancient Egypt did not have slavery as in the way slavery was practiced in more recent history. In Ancient Egypt they had "war captives" from various conflicts in various regions. Enemies who weren't killed outright on the battlefield and captured alive were then put to work within the state as laborers. The AE did not attach any ethnic priority to such captives. Whoever they fought against could potentially become a war prisoner and laborer in that context. This is attested to by the many different ethnic groups shown at war with the AE and as captives or laborers. Within the AE proper they did not need war captives to produce their building projects or public works. The AE had an efficient bureaucracy that managed the indigenous population and used them for all aspects of their building works and monuments. Their culture was not built around "slaves" doing all the work. Most scenes of AE life showed servants and workers as indigenous Egyptians and not foreigners or captives. But there are examples of such in various time frames. The myth of the Jews building the pyramids is just a myth.
And of course "SSA" as a specific set of genetic markers, has nothing to do with blacks being in Egypt since the beginning. Egypt is in and North of the Sahara and there have always been black people there. There are a range of DNA markers that could have been present in those populations going into prehistory and isolating them into "SSA" vs non "SSA" in the context of ancient African prehistory makes no sense.
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quote: A section of Papyrus Brooklyn 35.1446 contains a list of 95 servants, many of whom are specified as "Asiatic" or coming from western Asia (i.e. Canaan). The servants with foreign names are given Egyptian names, just as Joseph was when he was a household servant under Potiphar (Genesis 41:45). The majority of the names are feminine because domestic servants were typically female, while the male servants often worked in construction or agricultural tasks. Approximately 30 of the servants have names identified as from the Semitic language family (Hebrew is a Semitic language), but even more relevant to the Exodus story is that several of these servants, up to ten, actually have specifically Hebrew names. The Hebrew names found on the list include: Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem (2 Kings 15:14); Ashera, a feminine form of Asher, the name of one of the sons of Jacob (Genesis 30:13); Shiphrah, the name of one of the Hebrew midwives prior to the Exodus (Exodus 1:15); ‘Aqoba, a name appearing to be a feminine form of Jacob or Yaqob, the name of the patriarch (Genesis 25:26); ‘Ayyabum, the name of the patriarch Job or Ayob (Job 1:1); Sekera, which is a feminine name either similar to Issakar, a name of one of the sons of Jacob, or the feminine form of it (Genesis 30:18); Dawidi-huat a compound name utilizing the name David and meaning “my beloved is he” (1 Samuel 16:13); Esebtw, a name derived from the Hebrew word eseb meaning “herb” (Deuteronomy 32:2); Hayah-wr another compound name composed of Hayah or Eve and meaning “bright life” (Genesis 3:20); and finally the name Hy’b’rw, which appears to be an Egyptian transcription of Hebrew (Genesis 39:14). Thus, this list is a clear attestation of Hebrew people living in Egypt prior to the Exodus, and it is an essential piece of evidence in the argument for an historical Exodus. Although it appears that the Israelites were centered around the northeast Nile Delta area—the regions of Goshen and Rameses and the cities of Rameses, Pithom, and On—this document is from the area of Thebes to the south and includes household servants like Joseph in his early years rather than building and agricultural slaves of the period of Moses. Thus, the list appears to be an attestation of Hebrews in Egypt in their earlier period of residence in the country, prior to their total enslavement, and perhaps shows that a group may have migrated south or was taken south for work. While remains of material culture such as pottery, architecture, or artifacts may be ethnically ambiguous, Hebrew names and possibly even the word or name Hebrew clearly indicates that there were Hebrews living in Egypt. Although rather obscure, the list includes the earliest attestation of Hebrew names that has ever been recovered in Egypt, and it demonstrates that Hebrews were in Egypt prior to the 1440s BC just as the story in the book of Exodus records.
posted
^ Very interesting. The main point should be conveyed is that Egypt was NOT a slave based economy which is why unlike Greece or especially Rome, slaves were a small minority. In Egypt the vast majority of slaves were prisoners of war or criminals. Slaves by the way were forbidden from building monuments such as temples and tombs because such edifices were considered sacred and unworthy of slave labor. The majority of laborers in Egyptian society were Egyptian citizens with a small percentage being foreign laborers hired from other lands. There is still debate as to whether the Hebrews in Egypt as described in the Bible were chattel slaves or hired laborers that served as an underclass in the delta. Even Exodus says they were never captured in war but were immigrants to the land of Egypt and worked there.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: In Egypt the vast majority of slaves were prisoners of war or criminals.
ethics question
which is true? (read carefully the differences)
A) It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers and civilians including women of the opposite side and force them to do labor indefinitely beyond the ending of the war
B) It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers and civilians including women of the opposite side and force them to do labor but only until the war ends
C) It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers but not civilians of the opposite side and force them to do labor beyond the ending of the war
D)It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers but not civilians of the opposite side and force them to do labor but only until the war ends
E) It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers and civilians including women of the opposite side and force them to do labor indefinitely beyond the ending of the war but only if the opposite side was the aggressor and started the war unjustly
F) It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers and civilians of the opposite side including women and force them to do labor but only until the war ends and only if the opposite side was the aggressor and started the war unjustly
G) It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers but not civilians of the opposite side and force them to do labor indefinitely beyond the ending of the war and only if the opposite side was the aggressor and started the war unjustly
H)It is morally acceptable in wartime to enslave soldiers but not civilians of the opposite side and force them to do labor but only until the war ends but only if the opposite side was the aggressor and started the war unjustly
I) It is never morally acceptable to force people to do labor for any reason
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Slavery and morality. Interesting. Pose them to beydan Maurs who moraly justify slavery or to Libyans at their slave markets.
Somehow. I don't think all those enslaved Aamu females were ex-soldiers. Aren't there teliefs and paintings of Aamu slave trade tribute and ship cargo? Can we rely on Genesis sale of Joseph, Aamw selling Aamw into slavery.
Semitic religion is oblivious to morality AND slavery. How many people in the world profess some form of Judaism Christianity Islam? Not that Vodun for example is anti-slavery.
BTW neither free nor enslaved were whipped in AE. Both were beaten with rods, iirc.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Somehow. I don't think all those enslaved Aamu females were ex-soldiers. Aren't there teliefs and paintings of Aamu slave trade tribute and ship cargo? Can we rely on Genesis sale of Joseph, Aamw selling Aamw into slavery.
Even if they weren't warriors, those women could still have ended up "war booty". The implications behind that are ugly, but those were different times.
EDIT: This is from the Semna stela of Senusret III, commemorating his attack on the people of Wawat ("Lower Nubia"):
quote:I have captured their women, I have carried off their subjects, Went to their wells, killed their cattle, Cut down their grain, set fire to it. As my father lives for me, I speak the truth! It is no boast that comes from my mouth.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Somehow. I don't think ALL those enslaved Aamu females were ex-soldiers. Aren't there teliefs and paintings of Aamu slave trade tribute and ship cargo? Can we rely on Genesis sale of Joseph, Aamw selling Aamw into slavery.
Even if they weren't warriors, those women could still have ended up "war booty". The implications behind that are ugly, but those were different times.
EDIT: This is from the Semna stela of Senusret III, commemorating his attack on the people of Wawat ("Lower Nubia"):
quote:I have captured their women, I have carried off their subjects, Went to their wells, killed their cattle, Cut down their grain, set fire to it. As my father lives for me, I speak the truth! It is no boast that comes from my mouth.
.
I never heard of female soldiers in any ancient SW Asian civilization army. Can we keep storytelling apart from history.
Here's warring New Kingdom era pharaoh Amenhotep III calling for Levantine'booty'. Prepayment made to one Milkilu, an Aamu willingly selling his own womenfolk and maidens. [*]
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben.
No markets with auctions, yet non-POW nor war related slave trade in SW Asians is a fact.
[*]During peacetimes, Arameans wanted to sell Joseph to Ishmaelis but Midianis beat them to it before any Egyptian buys him from Midanis. Note Midian and Midan are different.
quote: A section of Papyrus Brooklyn 35.1446 contains a list of 95 servants, many of whom are specified as "Asiatic" or coming from western Asia (i.e. Canaan). The servants with foreign names are given Egyptian names, just as Joseph was when he was a household servant under Potiphar (Genesis 41:45). The majority of the names are feminine because domestic servants were typically female, while the male servants often worked in construction or agricultural tasks. Approximately 30 of the servants have names identified as from the Semitic language family (Hebrew is a Semitic language), but even more relevant to the Exodus story is that several of these servants, up to ten, actually have specifically Hebrew names. The Hebrew names found on the list include: Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem (2 Kings 15:14); Ashera, a feminine form of Asher, the name of one of the sons of Jacob (Genesis 30:13); Shiphrah, the name of one of the Hebrew midwives prior to the Exodus (Exodus 1:15); ‘Aqoba, a name appearing to be a feminine form of Jacob or Yaqob, the name of the patriarch (Genesis 25:26); ‘Ayyabum, the name of the patriarch Job or Ayob (Job 1:1); Sekera, which is a feminine name either similar to Issakar, a name of one of the sons of Jacob, or the feminine form of it (Genesis 30:18); Dawidi-huat a compound name utilizing the name David and meaning “my beloved is he” (1 Samuel 16:13); Esebtw, a name derived from the Hebrew word eseb meaning “herb” (Deuteronomy 32:2); Hayah-wr another compound name composed of Hayah or Eve and meaning “bright life” (Genesis 3:20); and finally the name Hy’b’rw, which appears to be an Egyptian transcription of Hebrew (Genesis 39:14). Thus, this list is a clear attestation of Hebrew people living in Egypt prior to the Exodus, and it is an essential piece of evidence in the argument for an historical Exodus. Although it appears that the Israelites were centered around the northeast Nile Delta area—the regions of Goshen and Rameses and the cities of Rameses, Pithom, and On—this document is from the area of Thebes to the south and includes household servants like Joseph in his early years rather than building and agricultural slaves of the period of Moses. Thus, the list appears to be an attestation of Hebrews in Egypt in their earlier period of residence in the country, prior to their total enslavement, and perhaps shows that a group may have migrated south or was taken south for work. While remains of material culture such as pottery, architecture, or artifacts may be ethnically ambiguous, Hebrew names and possibly even the word or name Hebrew clearly indicates that there were Hebrews living in Egypt. Although rather obscure, the list includes the earliest attestation of Hebrew names that has ever been recovered in Egypt, and it demonstrates that Hebrews were in Egypt prior to the 1440s BC just as the story in the book of Exodus records.
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