posted
I just don't get it. We have a group of Native Blacks who still live in Egypt today and still carry the name of Egypt's first city yet both Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics are still bickering back and forth about the race of The Pharaohs???? this just doesn't make any sense to me so feel free to give your opinion.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: They are too African/ Black for Eurocentrics and too "Arab"/ non-Black for Afrocentrics.
I hope that answered your question.
Excellent answer. I never thought of it that way. They seem to lean on Cultural/Linguistic comparisons with Tropical Africans to prove The Blackness of Ancient Egypt Yet they ignore the actual Black Egyptians who still exist. they don't realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot when they do that.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
Since I just can't seem to post pictures here I provided a link with a Nubian man in Elephantine who is identical to Hesy-Ra
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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^^ this is the proper URL form right clicking (Ctrl click on Mac) cell or tablet If you don't have a mouse, you can bring up the right click menu by holding your finger on the screen for one to two seconds, or until the menu appears
select copy image address ( or link location)
I have gone to the web page where the photo is not just the google location that you tried to use, go to the page where the photo actually is
and not every photo is copyable
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
(below has one of the items from SMirk92's link )
Hesy-Ra (also read Hesy-Re and Hesire) was an Ancient Egyptian high official during the early 3rd dynasty. His most notable title was Wer-ibeh-senjw, meaning either "Great one of the ivory cutters" or "Great one of the dentists", which would make him the earliest dentist whose name is known to us.
worked during the reign of 3rd Dynasty king (pharaoh) Djoser and maybe also under king Sekhemkhet.
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: A Walk Through the Alleys of Ancient Egypt By Abeer El-Shahawy, Farid S. Atiya
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I just don't get it. We have a group of Native Blacks who still live in Egypt today and still carry the name of Egypt's first city yet both Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics are still bickering back and forth about the race of The Pharaohs???? this just doesn't make any sense to me so feel free to give your opinion.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I just don't get it. We have a group of Native Blacks who still live in Egypt today and still carry the name of Egypt's first city yet both Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics are still bickering back and forth about the race of The Pharaohs???? this just doesn't make any sense to me so feel free to give your opinion.
this is one of the main quotes on that from the above article
quote: By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Meleq with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of sub-Saharan African ancestry after the Roman Period, which corroborates the findings by Henn and colleagues16. Further investigation would be needed to link this influx to particular historic processes. Possible causal factors include increased mobility down the Nile and increased long-distance commerce between sub-Saharan Africa and Egypt49. Trans-Saharan slave trade may have been particularly important as it moved between 6 and 7 million sub-Saharan slaves to Northern Africa over a span of some 1,250 years, reaching its high point in the nineteenth century50. However, we note that all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt. It is possible that populations in the south of Egypt were more closely related to those of Nubia and had a higher sub-Saharan genetic component, in which case the argument for an influx of sub-Saharan ancestries after the Roman Period might only be partially valid and have to be nuanced. Throughout Pharaonic history there was intense interaction between Egypt and Nubia, ranging from trade to conquest and colonialism, and there is compelling evidence for ethnic complexity within households with Egyptian men marrying Nubian women and vice versa51,52,53. Clearly, more genetic studies on ancient human remains from southern Egypt and Sudan are needed before apodictic statements can be made.
posted
The present day Nubians in Egypt have always been there. they are the very people of The NUBT Culture which is mislabeled ''Naqada Culture. The name ''Naqada'' was invented by Egyptologists so they can cut off The Nubians from their link to Nubt. They've managed to convince the world that Nubt(Nubia) is Sudan when in actuality Nubia is Nubt I.E what is now falsely being mislabeled Naqada.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The present day Nubians in Egypt have always been there. they are the very people of The NUBT Culture which is mislabeled ''Naqada Culture. The name ''Naqada'' was invented by Egyptologists so they can cut off The Nubians from their link to Nubt. They've managed to convince the world that Nubt(Nubia) is Sudan when in actuality Nubia is Nubt I.E what is now falsely being mislabeled Naqada.
Nubt is in what is now modern day Qena not Aswan
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The present day Nubians in Egypt have always been there. they are the very people of The NUBT Culture which is mislabeled ''Naqada Culture. The name ''Naqada'' was invented by Egyptologists so they can cut off The Nubians from their link to Nubt. They've managed to convince the world that Nubt(Nubia) is Sudan when in actuality Nubia is Nubt I.E what is now falsely being mislabeled Naqada.
Nubt is in what is now modern day Qena not Aswan
I already mentioned that The Nubians were pushed out of Nubt and further into Aswan and eventually Sudan.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
We don't need DNA to prove the race of The Ancient Egyptians because we have their living breathing descendants(The Nubians) still alive and well today. Most DNA studies done on the Ancient Egyptians contradict each other so you can't rely on DNA alone because many absurd claims have been made about The DNA of The Ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
you will have to send an email to the authors of that book.
If we are only looking at the wood panels of Hesire with no other information he is depicted with 3 different types of hair so it is not possible to tell just from looking alone if any is a wig unless there is some Egyptian text talking about it
Someone suggested in another thread that the fact that the hair goes around the ear proves it's not a wig but I don't think it's proof.
I posted this because people typically leave out the other panels.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you will have to send an email to the authors of that book.
If we are only looking at the wood panels of Hesire with no other information he is depicted with 3 different types of hair so it is not possible to tell just from looking alone if any is a wig unless there is some Egyptian text talking about it
Someone suggested in another thread that the fact that the hair goes around the ear proves it's not a wig but I don't think it's proof.
I posted this because people typically leave out the other panels.
I don't have to, because I know it's a B.S. claim.
quote: Images from: “The Social and Ritual Contextualisation of Ancient Egyptian Hair and Hairstyles from the Protodynastic to the End of the Old Kingdom, Volume 1”
~Geoffrey John Tassie The Social and Ritual Contextualisation of Ancient Egyptian Hair and Hairstyles from the Protodynastic to the End of the Old Kingdom, Volume 1
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
Why is it those remains don't show admixtures? How come these are homogenous?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
Why is it those remains don't show admixtures? How come these are homogenous?
what remains?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
Why is it those remains don't show admixtures? How come these are homogenous?
what remains?
The remains of these mummies you are talking about, what else could I be referent at?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QUOTE] Images from: “The Social and Ritual Contextualisation of Ancient Egyptian Hair and Hairstyles from the Protodynastic to the End of the Old Kingdom, Volume 1”
Two different panels above depicting Hesire. Why does his hair look different in the different panels? This thesis quote does not explain It describes "round curly style" with "internal decoration" ( note the word "style" and "decoration" is used not "type") And then the other one is also called a style "shoulder-length style"
another quote from this thesis you reference is
quote: The natural hair of the Predynastic and Protodynastic peoples varied through very darkbrown, dark-brown, brown, light-brown, (Brunton & Caton-Thompson 1928: 20), and even some incursions of red hair occurred - ginger in the British Museum, a natural Naqada II mummy from Gebelein; and also grey hair. Both straight and curly hair occurred, but by far the most prevalent type of hair was wavy.
the author also pointed out a waves in the Hesire hair at top (that occur in the head area but not further down). On the other hand Hawass has described this as a wig
.
____________________________________________
give me an accurate description why the man on the right's hair looks different than two of the other men
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
Why is it those remains don't show admixtures? How come these are homogenous?
what remains?
The remains of these mummies you are talking about, what else could I be referent at?
I had two in mind but since you said those remains don't show admixture you must be referring to something unless you are bluffing
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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give me an accurate description why the man on the right's hair looks different than two of the other men
His hair is processed. That's why! lol It was already posted in the previous post. lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: As for DNA analysis very very little Y DNA STR/SNP analysis as been done thus far on mummies or other ancient Egyptian remains especially ones before the late period
Why is it those remains don't show admixtures? How come these are homogenous?
what remains?
The remains of these mummies you are talking about, what else could I be referent at?
I had two in mind but since you said those remains don't show admixture you must be referring to something unless you are bluffing
Two is plural. So why don't these remains of mummies you babble about don't so admixture, but are always homogeneous? lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I would like to know the method this Afar man's hair was processed
Different types of wax (fats) is what was used, because the Afrotexture is soft it starts to hang down. lol
It was known during ancient times and is still being used.
quote: The head cones were actually solid lumps of perfumed fat that melted over the heads of their wearers and acted as a sort of ancient, fragranced hair gel.
quote:Using non-destructive analysis including portable X-ray fluoroscopy in the field, the researchers determined that the “interior of both cones showed peaks characteristic of plant or animal wax.” They further conclude that, “as beeswax is the only biological wax currently known to have been used by the ancient Egyptians, it can be posited to be the source of this material.”
quote: The Ethiopian tribes who use BUTTER to style their hair: Incredible photos reveal the elaborate curled creations of the Afar people, and the Hamer who mix ghee with red ochre to spectacular effect
The Afar tribe is famous for its butter-covered 'asdago' afro styles and elaborately curled 'dayta' 'do
But the Afar aren't the only ones to use dairy products as an unguent - the Bofana and Hamer also do
Particularly spectacular is the look adopted by the Karrayyu tribe who allow butter to drip through their hair
All four tribes are cattle herders by tradition and make the butter that they use on their hair by hand
Although many of their compatriots use shea butter, for the Afar and Hamer, using real butter is traditional
Why don't these remains of mummies you babble about don't show admixture, but are always "homogeneous"? lol
How in the hell is that possible, when they all came from the same region over a span of more than a thousand years. Yet all of a sudden in 750 A.D. sub-Sahara "admixture" shows up in all modern Egyptians? lol
I would like to know the method this Afar man's hair was processed
quote: The Ethiopian tribes who use BUTTER to style their hair: Incredible photos reveal the elaborate curled creations of the Afar people, and the Hamer who mix ghee with red ochre to spectacular effect
The Afar tribe is famous for its butter-covered 'asdago' afro styles and elaborately curled 'dayta' 'do
But the Afar aren't the only ones to use dairy products as an unguent - the Bofana and Hamer also do
Particularly spectacular is the look adopted by the Karrayyu tribe who allow butter to drip through their hair
All four tribes are cattle herders by tradition and make the butter that they use on their hair by hand
Although many of their compatriots use shea butter, for the Afar and Hamer, using real butter is traditional
quote: Their distinctive 'asdago' afro hairstyle is created using butter, which lends their locks a slightly ashy appearance as well as protecting it from the sun and keeping it perfectly supple.
And it's not just asdago hairdos that benefit from a spot of butter: another look, the 'dayta', also relies on dairy as a means of keeping the elaborate curls, created using a stick, in place.
ok, butter and sticks
Those Afar curls don't look like this
This may be a wig however it look straighter than Egyptian wigs I've seen but there could be other types that have never been found or deteriorated
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: continued
quote: Their distinctive 'asdago' afro hairstyle is created using butter, which lends their locks a slightly ashy appearance as well as protecting it from the sun and keeping it perfectly supple.
And it's not just asdago hairdos that benefit from a spot of butter: another look, the 'dayta', also relies on dairy as a means of keeping the elaborate curls, created using a stick, in place.
posted
newsflash black women in America don't use cow butter in their hair, shea and cocoa
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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the ends look like braids, maybe strings added depicted as lines
I love your picture spam and whitesplaining. It shows how desperate you are.
quote: Before these very recent discoveries, however, no physical evidence of these wax cones had ever been found to help us understand their production and use in real life. Their discovery illustrates that even after centuries of archaeological investigation in Egypt, there is still much for us to uncover about the ancient Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ you are trying to tell me that that is all African DNA ?
That was not my question, "expert". My question was and is. Why do these mummies not show admixture, while these have a span of over a thousands years in that region?
I am watching Ballator, UFC and later Boxing. So I will be offline (here). I expect to see a proper answer when I log back on.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The present day Nubians in Egypt have always been there. they are the very people of The NUBT Culture which is mislabeled ''Naqada Culture. The name ''Naqada'' was invented by Egyptologists so they can cut off The Nubians from their link to Nubt. They've managed to convince the world that Nubt(Nubia) is Sudan when in actuality Nubia is Nubt I.E what is now falsely being mislabeled Naqada.
Why do you keep repeating this fallacy when you were already corrected on two other threads (here and here). There were 2 cities named Nubt one in Qena near the town of Naqada hence 'Naqada' Culture and the other near Aswan which was culturally part of the predynastic Nubian A-Group. There was no mislabeling. Naqada were the predynastic Egyptians while A-Group were the predynastic Nubians.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I don't know
So you don't know how to interpret the data you are posting? lol
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
you tell me why you think the above chart shows no admixture
Because it doesn't show, that's why. It's not what I think, it's what they show, or rather you showed. lol How is it possible that in a settlement where allegedly "many subclades have been discovered" going back more than a thousand years, the mummies don't show intermingling (admixture)? How is that logical for any demographic?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The present day Nubians in Egypt have always been there. they are the very people of The NUBT Culture which is mislabeled ''Naqada Culture. The name ''Naqada'' was invented by Egyptologists so they can cut off The Nubians from their link to Nubt. They've managed to convince the world that Nubt(Nubia) is Sudan when in actuality Nubia is Nubt I.E what is now falsely being mislabeled Naqada.
Why do you keep repeating this fallacy when you were already corrected on two other threads (here and here). There were 2 cities named Nubt one in Qena near the town of Naqada hence 'Naqada' Culture and the other near Aswan which was culturally part of the predynastic Nubian A-Group. There was no mislabeling. Naqada were the predynastic Egyptians while A-Group were the predynastic Nubians.
Ok. Thanks for the information I admit I was unsure about The Nubians but it makes more sense now. There is definitely a shared Ancestry between todays Nubians and The Ancient Egyptians even if they are two different people. I have a picture of a Nubian boy who is a spitting image of a Young King Tut. They are definitely related but different groups. I would say the relationship between todays Nubians and The Ancient Egyptians is similar to the relationship between Italians and Spaniards. Different people but similar Ancestry/Background ETC.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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you tell me why you think the above chart shows no admixture
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Because it doesn't show, that's why. It's not what I think, it's what they show, or rather you showed. lol How is it possible that in a settlement where allegedly "many subclades have been discovered" going back more than a thousand years, the mummies don't show intermingling (admixture)? How is that logical for any demographic?
I don't know what you mean. We have a chart here of haplogroups
So if we are looking at a chart of haplogroups representing a site how would you determine if the charts is showing intermingling or not?
For instance you say the above chart shows that mummies at Abusir el-Meleq show no intermingling (admixture)
so if other haplogroups were on that chart could they show admixture in the site?
Or are you saying it doesn't matter if any haplogroup in the whole world was on this chart it would still show no admixture ?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The present day Nubians in Egypt have always been there. they are the very people of The NUBT Culture which is mislabeled ''Naqada Culture. The name ''Naqada'' was invented by Egyptologists so they can cut off The Nubians from their link to Nubt. They've managed to convince the world that Nubt(Nubia) is Sudan when in actuality Nubia is Nubt I.E what is now falsely being mislabeled Naqada.
Why do you keep repeating this fallacy when you were already corrected on two other threads (here and here). There were 2 cities named Nubt one in Qena near the town of Naqada hence 'Naqada' Culture and the other near Aswan which was culturally part of the predynastic Nubian A-Group. There was no mislabeling. Naqada were the predynastic Egyptians while A-Group were the predynastic Nubians.
That mislabeling comes from the Egyptologists. Ancient Nubt was a gold trading town that traded gold with the cultures of Ta Seti around Aswan during the predynastic and the nomadic Blemmyes in the Eastern desert. Technically all of these populations were considered "Nubian" as in inhabitants of the ancient primary gold trading centers of during the predynastic. And the town of "Nubt" as the birthplace of the worship of the god Set is indeed the right "Nubt" as excavated by Petrie.
quote: Naqada was the necropolis of the town of Nubt, the town of gold, known in Greek as Ombos. It had been devoted to the god Set, or Set of Nubt, Nubty, as he is called in the Pyramid Texts, and as evidenced by inscribed blocks found at Naqada.
Seth was thought to have been born in the Naqada region and had been connected with the kingship from Early Dynastic times at least, appearing on the macehead of King Scorpion. Along with Horus, Set was embodied in the person of the king. First Dynasty queens held the title "she who sees Horus and Set," and the Second Dynasty king Peribsen emphasized Set as his protector. There are ruins of the temple dedicated to Set which dates to the 18th Dynasty in New Kingdom times.
Naqada lies on the west bank of the Nile, downstream from Luxor (ancient Thebes), midway between Qurna and Dendara, and opposite Qena where the Nile bends. It stood opposite the entrance to the Wadi Hammamat, one of the relatively few direct accesses to the Red Sea coast and the gold reserves of the eastern desert. Naqada and Koptos on the opposite bank were thus in good position to be the centers of Predynastic gold trade in the region.
The majority of Predynastic sites in Naqada region belong to this culture. The sites range in area from a few thousand square meters to 3 hectares. The settlements probably housed 50 to 250 persons. Small postholes and the wooden stub of a post suggest flimsy wickerwork around a frame of wooden posts. Many dwellings were probably constructed from Nile mud and desert surface rubble.
The houses contained hearths and storage pits. Graves in some cases were dug right into the floor of the houses. Trash areas were interspersed with domestic dwellings. The houses included animal enclosures.
A portion of the site was termed "South Town" which was a walled town built of brick connected to a series of cemeteries. One of these, called cemetery T, seems to have been a rulers cemetery, as the graves were lined with brick and were large and well-furnished.
A staggering total of 2,149 graves were discovered, packed into approximately 17 acres on the low desert overlooking the Nile Valley. Graves had been placed side by side, virtually saturating the area with tombs.
And Naqada in all reality refers to the burials found at the ancient town of Nubt.
When Petrie excavated the cemeteries and pyramid he called the area ancient Nubt. So no, Smirk is totally correct.
quote: The town of Naqada is located on the west bank of the Nile in Kena Governatore. In ancient Egypt, it was called Nubt (from the ancient Egyptian word "nbwt", which means "gold"), and in the late antiquity was known as Ombos. Thanks to archaeological researches, the town of Naqada is known for its Eneolithic culture, dating from ~ 4400-3000 BC. Here, in 4 km from the modern riverbed of the Nile, and in ~ 300 meters to the North of the ruins of the ancient site of Ombos (Nubt), close to the modern city of Naqada one can see the ruins of one of the seven Minor Step Layer Pyramids, which are so little known. This pyramid does not have its own name. None of the artifacts, discovered in its environs gives even a slightest hint of its belonging to any of the ancient Egyptian Kings. So, for now, it is known only in the narrow circles of researchers of Ancient Egypt as the Pyramid of Naqada, or sometimes as the Pyramid of Ombos, and not much often - as the Pyramid Nubt.
The confusion comes from the fact that the predynastic burial area for ancient Nubt is far away from the Nile as it flows today. this is due to how the river has shifted since ancient times. The town of Naqada is closer to the current flow of the Nile. That ancient town is NOT the same as the modern town featuring the temple of Kom Ombo which was also called Nubt at some point in the dynastic era. However, the fact that two towns were called Nubt one in the north excavated by Petrie near Naqada and the other in the South nearer to Aswan reflects the fact that this area between the two was the original "Nubia" as in gold trading area. This reflects the root of the term "nub" meaning gold and has nothing to do with "Nubia" as used by Egyptologists meaning "black folks". And this area is also the area that overlaps with ancient Ta-Seti, which was also to become part of the Dynastic state.
Also Nehesi didn't mean "Nubian" and didn't mean "black people" in AE either.
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I get the point he is making but I'm not talking about different populations all over the world looking alike. I'm specifically talking about Northeast Africans looking alike.
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