Statue of Prince Horemakhet, High priest of Amun, 25th dynasty. (photo kairoinfo4u on Flickr)
Harwa (TT 37) – a high official of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty (unesco)
Amenirdis I, daughter of Kashta and sister of Piankhy (unesco)
Statue of a Queen and a Prince (photo kairoinfo4u on Flickr)
Head of King Shabatka. 25 Dyn. Granite. Nubian Museum Aswan. Neferkare Shabaka (or Shabako) was a Kushite pharaoh of the Twenty-fifth dynasty of Egypt, who reigned from 721 BC–707/706 BC.
Replica of a Wooden Set of Nubian Archers Found in the Tomb of Asyut (11th Dynasty)
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.
That's not true. I have been there myself. And the murals, statues etc. all look like EXACTLY the people who reside there till this present time and day. This is what they look like:
Things throughout time have been tangled up and confused by these Eurocentric scholars who tried to "teach" about Africa.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.
Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.
Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.
The obsession is indeed astonishing. And the modern people of France aren't the same as those from ancient times, the medieval or the classical period.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:During the 1960s, construction of the High Dam approximately 10 km up the Nile from Aswan created a 500 km-long reservoir, with a surface area of over 5000 km2. Named Lake Nubia in the Sudan and Lake Nasser in Egypt, the reservoir extends into the Sudan and required the relocation of at least 100,000 Nubians. This chapter deals only with High Dam impacts on the 48,000 Egyptian Nubians resettled between October 1963 and June 1964.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.
That's not true. I have been there myself. And the murals, statues etc. all look like EXACTLY the people who reside there till this present time and day. This is what they look like:
Things throughout time have been tangled up and confused by these Eurocentric scholars who tried to "teach" about Africa.
The Dinka are The Kushites because they still carry the name. The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan. Throughout The Pharaonic period The Egyptians depicted The Kushites as Cattle-Herders with that same dark orange cow urine hair dye that The Dinka use today. Herodotus gave a description of The Kushites being the tallest people in the world exactly like The Dinka. These are all facts that can’t be ignored or explained away.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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--Historical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Nubia
You are still thinking that Nubia and Kush are synonymous when they are not. Me and several other posters have already shown that Nubia came from “NWB” which referenced the gold mining areas within Egypt hence why there was a place called Nubt. You are still using the term to refer to land South of Aswan when the term never referenced Kush/Sudan but the gold mining areas within Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.
Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.
If Egyptologists are using the term “Nubia” as a separate entity from Egypt for the sole purpose of disconnecting the present day Nubians from their Egyptian heritage. Then that would make the African-Centered Egyptologists just as guilty because most Black Egyptologists have promoted Nubia as some separate entity from Egypt and synonymous with Kush. So you cannot claim Egypt was Black and then in the same breath speak of “NWB” as a separate entity when the term simply referenced Gold areas in Egypt and never meant a separate place or people from Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
Its funny because the First Nome of Egypt, Ta-Seti..from Aswan to Luxor was once a "Nubian" kingdom that was incorporated into the Egyptian empire very early and remained a vital part of Egyptian/Pharonic culture and history.
Why dont they call the folks living in Aswan to Luxor "Nubians" and the Pharoahs, customs, rituals, and Gods(Amun) as Nubian Black Pharoahs..How odd that they pick and choose at will.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
The term Egyptians used for Africans south of Aswan was Nehesi, and there was no racial component to it, as some Nehesi were depicted as light skin, dark skinned, or even the same skin tone as the Egyptians.
There never existed in 4000 yr pharoanic historical records a unified African entity called "Nubia" and every single Egyptologists knows it
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.
Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.
If Egyptologists are using the term “Nubia” as a separate entity from Egypt for the sole purpose of disconnecting the present day Nubians from their Egyptian heritage. Then that would make the African-Centered Egyptologists just as guilty because most Black Egyptologists have promoted Nubia as some separate entity from Egypt and synonymous with Kush. So you cannot claim Egypt was Black and then in the same breath speak of “NWB” as a separate entity when the term simply referenced Gold areas in Egypt and never meant a separate place or people from Egypt.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Its funny because the First Nome of Egypt, Ta-Seti..from Aswan to Luxor was once a "Nubian" kingdom that was incorporated into the Egyptian empire very early and remained a vital part of Egyptian/Pharonic culture and history.
Why dont they call the folks living in Aswan to Luxor "Nubians" and the Pharoahs, customs, rituals, and Gods(Amun) as Nubian Black Pharoahs..How odd that they pick and choose at will.
EXACTLY! The Nubians of today are those same Ta-Setians. ''NWB'' just referenced gold and a city called Nubt WITHIN EGYPT!. It never referenced a people or a country and there is no evidence that The AE never used it to refer to Kush/Sudan.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
"The Ethiopians to whom this embassy was sent are said to be the tallest and handsomest men in the whole world-HERODOTUS
^^^^^^^^^^^^This is proof that Herodotus was talking about The Dinka people when describing The Ancient Kushites. The Nubians do not fit this description and have been warring with and enslaving The Dinka for centuries.
I also want to point out that The Ancient Kushites were cattle-herders like The Dinka. The Nubians are not cattle-herders
Word forms: plural -kas or -ka. a member of a Nilotic people of South Sudan, noted for their height, which often reaches seven feet tall: chiefly herdsmen. 2. the language of this people, belonging to the Nilotic group of the Nilo-Saharan family. Collins English Dictionary.
Dinka definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary www.collinsdictionary.com › dictionary › english › dinka
kas ( Kush) kas means Kush kAS = kAS = kAS = kAS = kAS = kAS = kAS = kAS_or_kS
^^^^^^^^^^^ As you can see The Dinka word for people and The Ancient Egyptian word for Kush ''KAS'' are the same. You cannot skip over and ignore these facts.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
There is a Museum in Aswan called the Nubian Museum. It has sculptures and other ancient objects in it. There are people ins Aswan that call themselves Nubian.
So why do we need all this talk ?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Dinka are The Kushites because they still carry the name. The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan. Throughout The Pharaonic period The Egyptians depicted The Kushites as Cattle-Herders with that same dark orange cow urine hair dye that The Dinka use today. Herodotus gave a description of The Kushites being the tallest people in the world exactly like The Dinka. These are all facts that can’t be ignored or explained away.
One thing you first need to do is segment the groups that lived in the region and still live in the region. You can take it from there.
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.
But you need to explain who the people are who now claim to be the Nubians and from where this mislabeling came.
I met one guy at Aswan, who looked like a Dinka. I had a little talk with him and the old me that he's Nubian.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I am still learning how to post images and I've been having a very difficult time doing it so I will refrain from posting images to avoid spamming until I learn. With that being said you can view pictures of The Dinka/Nuer and Mundari grooming practices and can clearly match them to Ancient Egyptian and Greek vases of The Kushites.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Dinka are The Kushites because they still carry the name. The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan. Throughout The Pharaonic period The Egyptians depicted The Kushites as Cattle-Herders with that same dark orange cow urine hair dye that The Dinka use today. Herodotus gave a description of The Kushites being the tallest people in the world exactly like The Dinka. These are all facts that can’t be ignored or explained away.
One thing you first need to do is segment the groups that lived in the region and still live in the region. You can take it from there.
Please, post images along so we know what you are referring at. I suspect this is what you are referring at?
YES! combine those pictures with the fact that The Dinka are an Indigenous Sudanese people and you will see that they are Identical.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.
But you need to explain who the people are who now claim to be the Nubians and from where this mislabeling came.
I met one guy at Aswan, who looked like a Dinka. I had a little talk with him and the old me that he's Nubian.
That Nubian man you met is an Indigenous Egyptian and his ancestors have been living in Aswan since the time of Ta-Seti. He has nothing to do with The historical Sudanese empire of Kush regardless of what he looks like. His people The Nubians later migrated to Sudan and that is where the confusion began because they pushed The Dinka/Nuer out of Northern Sudan and further into South Sudan.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan.
so what does the word Koc have to do with Kushites?
The Dinka word ''KOC'' sometimes spelled ''KAS'' means people. It is the exact same word The Ancient Egyptians used for the people of Kush/Sudan. The Nubians do not carry this name because they were never Kushites.
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posted
How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.
But you need to explain who the people are who now claim to be the Nubians and from where this mislabeling came.
I met one guy at Aswan, who looked like a Dinka. I had a little talk with him and the old me that he's Nubian.
That Nubian man you met is an Indigenous Egyptian and his ancestors have been living in Aswan since the time of Ta-Seti. He has nothing to do with The historical Sudanese empire of Kush regardless of what he looks like. His people The Nubians later migrated to Sudan and that is where the confusion began because they pushed The Dinka/Nuer out of Northern Sudan and further into South Sudan.
See this is what we are talking about: "The Nubians later migrated to Sudan and that is where the confusion began because they pushed"
You don't have the terminology in place, so it all becomes very confusing. Who are you referring at here?
The Nubians you are referring at now in this post are people you can see on murals and statues.
Is it these people:
Or these people:
Murals at Aswan (what the vast majority looks like):
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.
Nubian is a broader term,the Kushites being one of the Nubian groups
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: Rilly (2010) distinguishes the following Nubian languages, spoken by in total about 900,000 speakers:
1) Nobiin, the largest Nubian language with 545,000 speakers in Egypt, Sudan, and the Nubian diaspora. Previously known by the geographic terms Mahas and Fadicca/Fiadicca. As late as 1863 this language, or a closely related dialect, was known to have been spoken by the arabized Nubian Shaigiya tribe.[5]
2) Kenzi (endonym: Mattokki) with 100,000 speakers in Egypt and Dongolawi (endonym: Andaandi) with 180,000 speakers in Sudan. They are no longer considered a single language, but closely related. The split between Kenzi and Dongolawi is dated relatively recently to the 14th century.
3) Midob (Meidob) with 30,000 speakers. The language is spoken primarily in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
4) Birgid, spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei until the 1970s. Was the predominant language between the corridor of Nyala and al-Fashir in the north and the Bahr al-Arab in the south as recent as 1860.[6]
5) Kordofan Nubian, a group of closely related dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains; in particular by the Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru.
posted
@Ish Gebor I am talking about The Nubian people dressed in Islamic clothing in the 2nd image not those Nuba wrestlers in the 1st image. I have mentioned many times that Nubians and Nuba are two different people. The name Nuba originates from The Nuba Mountains in South Sudan and the name Nubian originates from The Egyptian word ''NWB'' for gold and a place called Nubt in Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: @Ish Gebor I am talking about The Nubian people dressed in Islamic clothing in the 2nd image I'm talking about those Nuba wrestlers in the 1st image. I have mentioned many times that Nubians and Nuba are two different people.
Ok, but who are the people in the Islamic clothes (djellaba), who we can see in the abundance of murals and statues? If I recall it correctly you stated th tha they moved to "Egypt" recently.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.
Nubian is a broader term,the Kushites being one of the Nubian groups
The Ancient Egyptian words NWB(Nubian) and KAS(Kush)are not synonymous and are unrelated. You keep playing in to the Egyptologist myth of a ''Nubian'' people distinct from Egyptians when no such distinction existed. There was Egypt(KMT) and Kush(KAS).
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: @Ish Gebor I am talking about The Nubian people dressed in Islamic clothing in the 2nd image I'm talking about those Nuba wrestlers in the 1st image. I have mentioned many times that Nubians and Nuba are two different people.
Ok, but who are the people in the Islamic clothes (djellaba), who we can see in the abundance of murals and statues? If I recall it correctly you stated th tha they moved to "Egypt" recently.
No those people in Islamic clothing are Nubians who originated in Egypt and later moved to Sudan. There was NEVER a migration from Sudan to Egypt. The Nubians are an Egyptian people living in Sudan. Not a Sudanese people living in Egypt.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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posted
The Nuba are Indigenous to The Nuba mountains region in South Sudan. The Nubians are NOT Indigenous to Sudan but are Descendants of Egyptian Immigrants. Don't confuse these two ethnic groups because they are not related.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.
Nubian is a broader term,the Kushites being one of the Nubian groups
The Ancient Egyptian words NWB(Nubian) and KAS(Kush)are not synonymous and are unrelated. You keep playing in to the Egyptologist myth of a ''Nubian'' people distinct from Egyptians when no such distinction existed. There was Egypt(KMT) and Kush(KAS).
posted
I will have to take the time to fully read those links. However The Nubian Language was not able to decipher The Meroitic Script so that proves today's Nubians regardless if they speak a Nilo-Saharan language were not the historical people of Meroe. We have the names Kush and Nehesy surviving in The Dinka/Nuer languages as ''KOC/KAS'' and ''NAATH/NATH''.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote: General chronology of Upper Egypt, Nubia and Central Sudan revised in light of the recent results from the Kerma area.
Map of Egypt and Nubia with the location of the main area where a chronological framework was established for Holocene prehistory. Between them is located the area of Kerma from where are coming the new data presented in this paper. Other sites mentioned in the text are indicated.
~Matthieu Honegger Recent advances in our understanding of prehistory in Northern Sudan
BRITISH MUSEUM PUBLICATIONS ON EGYPT AND SUDAN 1 THE FOURTH CATARACT AND BEYOND Proceedings of the 12th International Conference for Nubian Studies https://kerma.ch/documents/PublicationsPosts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I will have to take the time to fully read those links. However The Nubian Language was not able to decipher The Meroitic Script so that proves today's Nubians regardless if they speak a Nilo-Saharan language were not the historical people of Meroe. We have the names Kush and Nehesy surviving in The Dinka/Nuer languages as ''KOC/KAS'' and ''NAATH/NATH''.
Usually a language is related to a group/ ethnicity/ nationality. Do you agree?
posted
That's true but if The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt(Which The Egyptian government recognizes) then how could they be the people of Ancient Kush?. Kush was further South in Napata, Meroe ETC. The Dinka still carry the name ''KOC''. There is a placed called Koch County in South Sudan. The Dinka match the description Herodotus gave of The Kushites and also the depictions The Ancient Egyptians made of Kushites. Now with all of this being said we cannot claim that The Nubians are Kushites because they are Ethnically distinct from The Dinka.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: That's true but if The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt(Which The Egyptian government recognizes) then how could they be the people of Ancient Kush?. Kush was further South in Napata, Meroe ETC. The Dinka still carry the name ''KOC''. There is a placed called Koch County in South Sudan. The Dinka match the description Herodotus gave of The Kushites and also the depictions The Ancient Egyptians made of Kushites. Now with all of this being said we cannot claim that The Nubians are Kushites because they are Ethnically distinct from The Dinka.
Perhaps this will give some clarification.
quote:
Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies reported Nubians to be more similar to Egyptians and Ethiopians than to other Nilo-Saharan populations.....
A random subset of 18 individuals from each population was selected to avoid sample size bias. Columns represent individuals, where the size of each colour segment represents the proportion of ancestry from each cluster. Although k = 3 is the statistically supported model, here we show the results from k = 2 through k = 5 as they explain several ancestral components: North African/Middle Eastern (dark blue), Sub-Saharan (light blue), Coptic/Cushitic (dark green), Nilo-Saharan (light green) and Fulani (pink). MKK = Maasai from Kinyawa, Kenya; LWK = Luhya from Webuye, Kenya; YRI = Yoruba from Ibadan, Nigeria.
Populations from the North-East cluster: Beja, Ethiopians, Arabs and Nubians (Table 2) may be explained as admixture products of an ancestral North African population (similar to Copts).
Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. S1a). Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies reported Nubians to be more similar to Egyptians than to other Nilo-Saharan populations1,8: Nubians were influenced by Arabs as a direct result of the penetration of large numbers of Arabs into the Nile Valley over long periods of time following the arrival of Islam around 651 A.D20.
Interestingly, our analyses shows a unique ancestry for Sudanese Nilo-Saharan speaking groups (Darfurians and Nuba) related to Nilotes of South Sudan, but not to other Sudanese populations or sub-Saharan populations (Fig. 3).
This ancestral component is not present in places where the Bantu expansion left a strong footprint and creates a different genetic background that is not found among most African populations. Tishkoff et al.5. reported a common ancestry of Nilo-Saharan speaking populations. We also found this relationship of Nilo-Saharan Sudanese populations with other Nilo-Saharan populations from Kenya (Maasai), but not as strong, as Maasai show their own genetic component at k = 6, which is different from the Sudanese component (Supplementary Fig. S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations. In a previous Y-chromosome study8, most Nilo-Saharan speaking populations, except Nubians, showed little evidence of gene flow with other Sudanese populations.
The presence of the core of Nilo-Saharan languages in the confluence of the two Nile rivers suggests that the Sudanese region is the place of origin of the Nilo-Saharan linguistic family despite their fragmented distribution, as shown by the location of the Nubian language21,22. It is interesting to note that Nuba populations constitute an homogeneous group, even if some speak Kordofanian (of the Niger-Kordofanian family) and others different languages of two branches of the Nilo-Saharan family. Their genetic composition denotes their Nilo-Saharan origin, with linguistic replacements in some groups.
Population displacement, whether it is followed with cultural or genetic exchange with local populations, would explain why not every Nilo-Saharan speaking group has this genetic component (as is the case of Nubians) and not every population that has it is mainly formed by Nilo-Saharan speakers (as is the case of Niger-Kordofanian speaking Nuba).
~Begońa Dobon, Hisham Y. Hassan, et al. The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.
What?!! Now I know you are confused! The people Lioness posted have NOTHING to do with Dinka/Nuer except they were included in their Kushite Empire but were themselves not Kushite!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.
What?!! Now I know you are confused! The people Lioness posted have NOTHING to do with Dinka/Nuer except they were included in their Kushite Empire but were themselves not Kushite!
Wrong. They are THE! Kushites. I already stated numerous times that The Dinka/Nuer are The direct descendants of The Ancient Kushites. I posted on numerous occasions about the word Kush surviving today as ''KOC/KAS'' in The Dinka language. I've posted about Koch County in South Sudan. I've posted about Herodotus's description of The people of Meroe as being the tallest people in the world. I've posted about how The Dinka are cattle-herders like The Ancient Kushites. I've posted about The Greek vases that depict The Kushites with the same exact orange cow urine grooming practice. I've said a Zillion times that The Nubians are Indigenous to Southern Egypt and that their name derives from The city of Nubt which is located in The Aswan Governate where they originated and emerged as a people and where they were granted a right to return. I've made it abundantly clear from my first post that The Nubians have nothing to do with Kush but were and have always been Indigenous Egyptians and that they have never claimed nor have an oral history of a migration.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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I think we are spending too much time trying to reconcile something that is not reconcilable. Ancient "Nubia" never existed and there is no way to identify a "Nubian" people from 4,000 years ago because they didn't exist. Just like every other part of Africa, the Nile Valley had many different ethnic groups and languages over its long history. Lumping some of them together in history is purely in service of Egyptology trying to claim Egypt as separate from Africa in ancient times.
Therefore, it is impossible to reconcile modern "Nubian" people with the "Nubians" of Egyptology. They aren't the same even if the modern Nubians still live in Aswan and are less impacted by Arab culture and mixture. They simply represent the purest example of what ancient Egyptians looked like along with other Egyptians in the country to this day.
Everything else about the Dinka and Nuer and all these other groups have nothing to do with ancient Nubia. The Nobatae are not ancient Nubians nor are the Nuba or Sudanese from Khartoum and Meroe. These other groups were NEVER part of Nubia even in ancient times. Again, this is a made up concept for the purposes of Egyptology dividing up Africa.
So given that, why are people still using it as core of this debate? That makes no sense. We can discuss the diversity of African ethnic groups, languages and cultures without forcing them into frameworks of identity created by Non Africans for their own agendas.
To that point, the "Nubian" museum is not displaying artifacts from the flooding of Lake Aswan which are within the borders of Egypt along with the modern people called "Nubian". They are displaying artifacts from many miles to the South around Meroe and Kush. Those people were never of a shared identity as Nubians even to this day. The museum is designed to lump the people of Aswan with the people of Meroe and Kush when they never were part of any unified culture or identity, not in the medieval period, not in the early Christian era, not in the Roman Era and not today. It is completely a fabrication of Egyptologists.
The Nubian Museum in Aswan should be showcasing stuff from within Upper Egypt in the area between Aswan and the 2nd cataract not areas further South around the 4th or 5th Cataract. Those are not the same people.
The fact is the reason so many artifacts from Kush are in the museum is because in reality the areas between Aswan and the 2nd cataract were always considered as part of Egypt, even in the dynastic era.
Taken from 'Photographic Views of The Crystal Palace' by Phillip H.Delamotte'
quote: The Great Exhibition of the Works of Industry of All Nations or The Great Exhibition (sometimes referred to as the Crystal Palace Exhibition in reference to the temporary structure in which it was held), an international exhibition, took place in Hyde Park, London, from 1 May to 15 October 1851. It was the first in a series of World's Fairs, exhibitions of culture and industry that became popular in the 19th century.
the word Nubia may or may not have been derived from the city of Nubt ___________________________________________
.
This term "Nubia" was first applied by the Romans ( latin form Nubianus) They intended it to means all the various groups in Sudan
Did they also include the people of Nubt?
Maybe but we would need an example in their writing. But it could have included them also. But if they used this term because there were some people in Nubt, inside Egypt does not means that Nubt is the origin of all the various groups, Kush, Meore, Kerma, Medjay all of these groups
And this term Nubian is similar to the Egyptian term Nehesy. They are broader terms
So were the Egyptians of the same "race" ? Maybe, but that is a separate issue
During the Roman occupation the Romans were a minority.
A minority can control a majority if they bring in a big army that the native population might not want to challenge if they think they may not win. So they may accept the occupation
There is a political reality to what is called Egypt and what is outside of their territory.
The term "Canada" is used to indicate a separate nation from the United States even though that breaks down to sub groups and provinces.
So as regard Egypt and Nubia if someone wants to say they were of the same "race" or different in some way that is a separate issue from the political meaning and how the Romans were applying the term Nubian in a territorial sense not Nubt
And during the Roman occupation the native Egyptians were right there in Egypt being ruled by a Roman minority
This was going on as the Romans indicated this term "Nubian"
The the Romans say they forced all the native Egyptians into the Aswan and Sudan? NO
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Stop promoting that nonsense. I can't believe you're still using the term Nubian as distinct from Nubt to refer to Kush. Newsflash The Ancient Egyptians idea of Nubt is completely different from The Egyptologists idea of Nubia.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Stop promoting that nonsense. I can't believe you're still using the term Nubian as distinct from Nubt to refer to Kush. Newsflash The Ancient Egyptians idea of Nubt is completely different from The Egyptologists idea of Nubia.
Nubt is a place name not a people name. This you said yourself.
The Egyptians did not say they were Nubti
And the Egyptians did not say Nubt was a people
They had a word called "Nehesy" this refers to people to the south outside of their national boundary
the equivalent word "Nubians" is how the Romans sometimes called this same Nehesy
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] I think we are spending too much time trying to reconcile something that is not reconcilable. Ancient "Nubia" never existed and there is no way to identify a "Nubian" people from 4,000 years ago because they didn't exist.
There are people in Aswan you call themselves Nubians
So you would need to go in an Aswan forum and tell them they shouldn't call themselves that
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posted
Nubt-Nubianus-Nubian is how the term developed. Most Egyptologists would agree with this. It is for this reason that they prefer using The Arabic name Naqada instead of The Ancient Egyptian original name Nubt Because if they referred to it as The Nubt era then it's connection to The Nubian people would be painfully obvious.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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Stop promoting that nonsense. I can't believe you're still using the term Nubian as distinct from Nubt to refer to Kush. Newsflash The Ancient Egyptians idea of Nubt is completely different from The Egyptologists idea of Nubia.
Nubt is a place name not a people name. This you said yourself.
The Egyptians did not say they were Nubti
And the Egyptians did not say Nubt was a people
They had a word called "Nehesy" this refers to people to the south outside of their national boundary
the equivalent word "Nubians" is how the Romans sometimes called this same Nehesy
I already made it clear that Nubt and Nehesy are not Equivalent. The Romans usage of the term Nubian derives from Nubt and was applied to the people in Northern Sudan because they were the same people as those living in Nubt which is located in The same Aswan Governate that The Nubians live in today. The Romans obviously saw the people in Northern Sudan as deriving from the people in Nubt otherwise they would've never gave them that name.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: I already made it clear that Nubt and Nehesy are not Equivalent.
I didn't say they were equivalent.
Another thing that is not equivalent is Nubian meaning people of Nubt
"Nubian" as used by the Romans meant what Nehesy meant all the various groups including Kush, Meore, Kerma, Medjay etc
Nubian and Nehesy means virtually the same thing. They are broad terms for the people outside of Egypt's political boundary to the South
If you want to claim that the Romans used the word "Nubian" to mean people of the city of Nubt you will have to show a quote of the Romans doing this.
Did the Romans call the native Egyptians in general "Nubians"
No
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: The Romans obviously saw the people in Northern Sudan as deriving from the people in Nubt otherwise they would've never gave them that name.
No that is your assumption and you have not read Roman texts you are simply making your own assumptions
The Romans applied "Nubian" to all those groups including Kushites etc. that you claim are not Nubian
And the equivalent term that the Egyptians used was Nehesy
Do you see in Egyptian text the Kings paying tribute to Nubt as the origin of Egyptian civilization or as their forefathers?
No
So you need to look at what the Romans said and what the Egyptians said instead of all these assumptions and wishes
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: they would've never....
this is the type of thing one says when guessing and pretend it's fact
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