By Sheikh Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid ( A Saudi Islamic lecturer and author)
Rape is an abhorrent crime and an abominable sin. This heinous crime is forbidden not only in Islam but in all religions, and all people of sound thinking and pure human nature reject it.
The Arabic word ightisab (rape) refers to taking something wrongfully by force. It is now used exclusively to refer to transgression against the honor of women by force.
This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who possess sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it.
Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is haram (forbidden) and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it.
Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
The laws of Islam came to protect women’s honor and modesty. Islam forbids women to wear clothes that are not modest. In addition, Islam encourages young men and women to marry early, and many other rulings that close the door before rape and other crimes. Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies, which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement! It is worth mentioning here that in America , for example, Amnesty International stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year.
The punishment for rape in Islam is the same as the punishment for zina (adultery or fornication), which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.
Moreover, Ibn `Abdul-Barr (may Allah bless his soul) said
The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (that is, if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her. (Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146).
In addition, the rapist is subject to the hadd punishment for zina, even if the rape was not carried out at knifepoint or gunpoint. If the use of a weapon was threatened, then he is a muharib, and is to be subjected to the hadd punishment described in the verse in which Allah says (The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter) (Al-Ma’idah 5:33).
So the judge has the choice of the four punishments mentioned in this verse and may choose whichever he thinks is most suitable to attain the objective, which is to spread peace and security in society, and ward off evildoers and aggressors.
By Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:
In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.
A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.
If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.
A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”
As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).
Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.muslims.ca
Punishment for Rapists
By Dr. Ahmad Yusuf Sulaiman, professor of law and Islamic Shari`ah at Cairo University:
Islamically speaking, the raped woman is not guilty of any sin because she was forced to it beyond her control. Stressing this, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “Allah has forgiven my Ummah for their mistakes, what they forget and what they are forced to do.” Thus, the raped woman is a victim and all members of her community should deal with her with honor and kindness and should encourage her to obtain her rights through all possible means.
If a woman is raped, she should press charges against the one who raped her. If it is proved that she was raped, then the court must apply discretionary punishment or ta`zir on the rapist. Such discretionary punishment may reach the death penalty, according to some schools of thought. This is based wholly on the fact that the rape is confirmed through medical tests and court procedures, without the confession of the rapist himself.
In cases where the rapist confesses the crime, then the penalty for zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) is to be applied to him. If he is not married, then he is to be whipped 100 lashes. If he is married, then he is to be stoned to death.
As for the rape victim, no punishment is to be inflicted on her. She is to be treated with dignity and honor, and all forms of help should be given to her to gain her rights.
Excerpted from :http://www.islamonline.net/ Fatwa
Posted by REALITY CHECK (Member # 11887) on :
EGYPT: TOUGHER LAWS NEEDED TO STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN, ACTIVISTS SAY
July 13, 2005 (IRIN) - Several women's rights organisations have called upon Egyptian parliamentarians to amend existing laws and develop tougher legislation to stop violence against women.
A statement was made on Monday by the groups in reaction to a recent rape and murder case in which one of the accused was sentenced to only three years imprisonment in May.
The second accused was sentenced to two years and on appeal this sentence was reduced to two months imprisonment.
The Arab Women's Alliance (AWA), the New Women's Research Centre (NWRC), and the Egyptian Centre for Women's Legal Assistance (ECWLA), along with several other women's rights groups, demanded the implementation of fresh legislation concerning rape.
"The judge referred to article 17 of the penalties code which gives judges discretion in taking mercy in cases and reducing the degree of the crime," Hala Abdel-Kader of ECWLA said.
"Article 17 is an important clause in the Egyptian law because there are cases that deserve mercy due to the circumstances of the crime. However, we cannot find any justifications in this case for mercy," she added.
According to a statement issued by the women's rights organisations, the two accused men in the rape case confessed to their crime. The first accused had lured the 23 year-old girl to his flat where he raped and beat, resulting in her death.
According to Abdel-Kader, who is a lawyer, article 290 of the criminal code stipulates that a criminal accused of kidnapping and raping a woman should receive a capital punishment.
"The accused have confessed to their crime. In addition, the judge explained when passing the sentence that he strongly believes that the girl was kidnapped and raped. Still he referred to article 17 of the penalties code without giving any explanation to why," she said.
As an observer, Judge Ghareeb Ezzat told IRIN that article 17 was not a compulsory article that is used in all cases.
"Article 17 is only used in criminal cases and depending on the circumstances of the case itself," he said, adding that each crime has its own set of circumstances which need to be taken into consideration when sentencing.
The girl's brother submitted an appeal request to the prosecutor after the verdict was announced. When it was refused he wrote a petition to the general prosecutor and is waiting for a date to be set for an appeal.
"In criminal cases, the prosecutor is delegated to handle the case on behalf of the victim and in the name of the people," Administrative Prosecutor, Mustafa Abaza, said.
"The prosecutor only accepts appeal cases when it sees that the law has not been used correctly in a case," he explained, adding that in this case the judge's ruling was legitimate.
With regard to this regulation, women rights organisations are now demanding that the victim have the right of appeal against decisions in criminal cases, without having to go to the prosecutor.
According to Abdel-Kader, this case has highlighted loopholes in the Egyptian legislative system, especially with regard to crimes of violence against women.
"Such crimes should not be left unpunished and criminals should be sentenced to a punishment that fits the degree of their crime," she said.
Domestic Violence III.1 Woman Battering The dominance of men over women is accepted to varying degrees among Egyptians of both genders. For example, the 1995 Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey found that a significant number of women, especially among lower and middle income women and those residing in rural areas, believed that wife beating was justified under certain circumstances.20 Another study - carried out between January and March 1997 on a sample of 100 women aged between 14 and 65 years old (married or having been married) from Manshier Nasser, an informal settlement located ten minutes from the city of Cairo - reveals that 30% of the women questioned admitted to being subjected to domestic violence on a daily basis, 34% on a weekly basis, 15% on a monthly basis and 21% occasionally.21 For 75% of these women, the main reason for this domestic violence was found to be sexual. Women are beaten, raped or abused for having refused to have sex with their husbands. Other reasons cited were spending (65%), visiting (32%), housework (25%), religion (8%), jealousy (6%) and disobedience (5%).22 Sixteen percent of the women suffered injuries necessitating hospitalisation, such as broken arms, broken ribs, internal bleeding and wounds in the head or the arms requiring stitches, while 9% of them attempted to commit suicide.23 Following this violence, most of them (53%) suffered in silence; 13% went to the police, although all of them subsequently withdrew the charges, the objective being only “to teach the husband a lesson”, not really wanting to cause him any harm.24 Only 6% of these women demanded a divorce. Of the remainder, 26% called their neighbours; 25% tried to leave their homes at least once; 23% got help from family members (either their own or their spouse’s), while 15% responded to the violence. The fact that 87% of these women did not mention the violence to the police is due to embarrassment (65%), for the children’s sake (32%), fears for their husband (19%), fear of their husband 20 – F. El-Zanaty et.al, Egypt Demographic and Health Survey, 1996, p. 206, quoted in Nemat Guenena and Nadia Wassef, see note 6, p. 38. 21 – Marlyn Tadros, Rightless Women, Heartless Men. Egyptian Women and Domestic Violence, The Legal Research and Resource Center for Human Rights, Cairo, 1998, p. 46. 22 – Ibid., pp. 51-62. 23 – Ibid., pp. 62-71. 24 – Ibid. III (13%), and fear of their own families (7%).25 Four percent felt that it was a waste of time, while 11% cited other reasons. The researcher specified that although this study is not representative of Egyptian society as a whole, she feels that “the instances of violence even among different social classes within Egyptian society is widespread.”26 OMCT welcomes the promulgation of Law No. 6 of 1998, mentioned in the fifth and fourth government report on page 15, which criminalises the phenomenon of intimidation and the threat of the use of force or violence against a wife, offspring or parents. However, it believes that this measure does not provide women with sufficient protection from domestic violence as wife battering in Egypt is only dealt with as a crime if it exceeds the accepted limits of disciplining or if it results in certain injuries.27 Social and other interpretations of religious values reinforce the wife’s duty to obey and serve her husband, a role reinforced by the media. Moreover, the custom of a man paying a dowry for his future wife also perpetuates the idea that a wife is her husband’s property. Although OMCT welcomes the amended personal law which allows women the right to unilateral divorce, it is concerned that the rights granted to women by law are still too limited to enable them to leave their husbands. First of all, a woman can only get a divorce if she can afford to pay back her dowry. As women are still often economically dependent on their husbands, returning the dowry will in many cases be impossible. Neither does the new law improve the conditions of Egyptian Coptic women who must go through the complex procedure of applying for an annulment of a marriage from their church. Moreover, as mentioned above, the law still makes it illegal for any institution to separate a wife from her husband without his consent. Consequently, women cannot seek refuge in a shelter from a violent husband. According to information received, since the law has been implemented in February 2000, a few dozen cases have occurred. According to the newspapers, two or three divorces have been granted on these grounds. According to lawyers this has not yet been the case.
V i o l e n c e a g a i n s t W o m e n i n E g y p t 20 25 – Ibid. 26 – Ibid, p. 82. 27 – Information received from the Egyptian Organisation for Human Rights (EOHR), member of the OMCT SOS Torture network, in answer to an OMCT questionnaire on violence against women.
************************************************** 21 Domestic Violence III.2 Marital Rape In Egypt, a husband who forces his wife to have sexual intercourse is not considered by the law to have committed a criminal offence, “because the woman is legally obliged due to the marriage contract to obey her husband and to follow him to his bed each time he asks her, and she can only refuse for a legally valid reason.”28 A study conducted by the New Women Research Centre and El-Nadim Centre has found that 93% of the women in the sample considered intercourse under such conditions as rape. However, 46% of the men in the sample said that they were entitled to force their wives to have intercourse.29 III.3 Crimes against Women Committed in the Name of Honour As already discussed above, there is a notable difference in the penalty for the murder of one’s spouse upon discovery of adultery. Whereas men are given a light prison sentence of not more than three years for murdering an adulterous wife, women are often sentenced to hard labour for life for murdering an unfaithful husband. This difference is justified by the widespread attitude that a man’s honour is dependent upon his wife’s virtue. Consequently, his violent reaction to his wife’s adultery becomes excusable, especially if committed in the heat of the moment. Moreover, although under the penal code, only the husband is “afforded” a lesser sentence for “provocation”, the woman’s family is often given a provocation defence by lenient court officials.30 Judges allegedly impose light sentences in such cases as an appreciation of the family’s suffering.31
************************************************** Cases • Fathiyah was murdered by her brother, Khayri Muhammad, for not consenting to an abortion in order to “avoid bringing shame on her family and husband” who was working outside the country. In the presence of her four children, he locked Fathiyah in her bathroom, 28 – Sami a. Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh, L’Ethique sexuelle en droit musulman et arabe, cas de l’Egypte, passé, présent et avenir, unpublished text. 29 – El-Nadim Centre and New Women Research Centre, 1994, quoted in Nemat Guenena and Nadia Wassef, see note6, p. 37.
proceeded to pour a can of gasoline under the door and set it alight. He wanted to make sure she would be “completely charred”. Khayri Muhammad was only sentenced to three years hard labour, because the Court established through a pathologist that Fathiyah was in fact pregnant at the time of her death.32 • Thurayya Abd-al-Hamid, a 37 year-old housewife, drowned in a pool of her own blood after her throat was slit by her brother, a government official. She was stabbed 160 times all over her body. Thurayya was murdered because of a rumour that she was going out with her brotherin- law while her husband was out of the country.33 • A pregnant woman in the Muharram Bey quarter of Alexandria was electrocuted to death by her mother for not disclosing the identity of the man who had impregnated her. The mother then filed a report stating that her daughter died of natural causes. After signs of torture were discovered, the mother said that this was done to protect the family honour.34 • A 23-year old woman was assaulted and killed with an axe by her brother for her alleged “misconduct”. He had “doubts about her behaviour”.35 • A man slit his daughter’s throat in order to “cleanse” his honour. He carried her dead body through the streets and repeated, “I have been cleansed of my shame”.36 V i o l e n c e a g a i n s t W o m e n i n E g y p t 22 30 – Muhammad Sa’id, Al Wafd, Crimes of Shame in Defense of Honour, October 24, 1998, pp. 38-39. 31 – Ibid. 32 – Three Years at Hard Labor for Man Who Murdered His Sister in Al-Gharbiyah, Al-Ahrar, December 16, 1998. (This material was provided by Mrs. Nevine Ebaid, International Relation Coordinator for Center for Egyptian Women Legal Assistance (CEWLA), translated from the original Arabic text on file in the Georgetown Women’s Human Rights Center), quoted in a paper written by Marji Kirkwood on honour killings in Egypt, 1999. 33 – Abd-al-Ilah Muhammad, Official Slaughters Sister and Rips Apart Her Body Because of a “Rumor", Al-Ahrar, December 16, 1998. (This material was provided CEWLA, translated from the original Arabic text on file in the Georgetown Women’s Human Rights Center), quoted in ibid. 34 – Center for Egyptian Women’s Issues, Violence and Honor Crimes, 1998, quoted in ibid. 35 – Brother Murders Sister With an Axe Because of Her Misconduct, Al-Ahrar, November 6, 1998. (This material was provided by CEWLA, translated from the original Arabic text on file in the Georgetown Women’s Human Rights Center), quoted in ibid. 36 – Muhammad Sa’id, Al-Wafd, see note 30.
• A wife was shot in “a sensitive spot of her body” because her husband had doubts about her “behaviour”. She did not die.37 • A young woman was killed by her brother because of her bad reputation in their village. However, a pathologist established that the young woman was a virgin.38 • A young woman was killed by her father after trying to run away on her wedding day. “He pursued her and began hitting her on the head with a metal object in the presence of passers-by until she died”.39 • A woman who had completed a two year sentence for adultery was saved by the police from being murdered by her three brothers. They wanted to “erase their dishonour” because of their sister’s adultery.40 • In September 1998, a girl was murdered by her brother because of a rumour. Her body was displayed for all to see.41 • In October a husband murdered his wife and their children because of doubts regarding her “behaviour”.42 Over half of the actual or attempted murder cases reported in Egypt occur within families, either by spouses, parents, children, in-laws, or rejected fiancés.43 Official statistics indicate that murders committed in defence of honour accounted for 5.4% of all the murders committed in 1997.44 In a four-month study for 1998, there were a total of 14 murders allegedly motivated by honour.45 Of those, five were motivated by mere suspicion, one case was motivated by the woman’s occupation (she was a dancer), and eight were by pregnancy resulting from adultery.46 Studies show that this 23 Domestic Violence 37 – Ibid. 38 – Ibid. 39 – Ibid. 40 – Police Thwart Brothers’ Attempt Erase Their Dishonor by Murdering Their Disreputable Sister After Her Release from Prison, Al-Ahram, December 6, 1998, quoted in Marji Kirkwood, see note 32. 41 – Center for Egyptian Women’s Issues, Violence and Honor Crimes, 1998, quoted in ibid. 42 – Ibid. 43 – Enid Hill, Mahkama! Studies in the Egyptian Legal System, Courts & Crimes, Law & Society, 126, 1979, quoted in ibid. 44 – Muhammad Sa’id, Al-Wafd, see note 30. 45 – Center for Egyptian Women’s Issues, see note 34. 46 – Ibid.
type of crime is prevalent in Upper Egypt, the Egyptian countryside, and in low-income urban neighbourhoods.47 Keeping tabs on virginity is therefore rigidly enforced. The least threat to women’s values and morality is severely repressed, hindering their entrance into the public sphere. III.4 Early Marriages Egyptian law stipulates that the legal age for marriage is 16 for girls and 18 for boys. OMCT fears that the age difference in this law encourages the completion of education for boys at the age of 18, while curtailing that of girls, implying that it is of lesser importance. Moreover, this law is rarely enforced and marriage of even younger girls is common. A study conducted by the Minister of Health of Upper Egypt revealed that 44% of rural women married between 1989 and 1993 were under 16 years old at the time of their marriage.48 Traditional, religious and economic motives dictate such marriages. Through the practice of the mahr or bride price, some families see early marriages as a means of improving their financial situation. Early marriage often leads to early pregnancy, before girls are biologically and psychologically mature, which is detrimental to the lives of both the mother and the child.49 The Beijing Platform for Action addressed the problems of early pregnancy associated with child marriage, urging Governments “to enact and strictly enforce laws concerning the minimum legal age of consent and the minimum age of marriage and raise the minimum age for marriage where necessary.”50 According to the national statistics from the Egypt Demographic and Health Survey (1996) of a sample of 14,000 married women, of those who reported having being beaten, 32% were beaten during pregnancy, with V i o l e n c e a g a i n s t W o m e n i n E g y p t 24 47 – Muhammad Sa’id, Al-Wafd, see note 30. 48 – Laila Shukry Al-Hamamsy, Early Marriage and Reproduction in Two Egyptian Villages, Paper for the Population Council/UNFPA, Cairo, 1994, quoted in: Marlyn Tadros, see note 21, pp. 14 -15. 49 – Abortion: A tabulation of available data on the frequency and mortality of unsafe abortions, WHO Doc., WHO/FMF/MSM/92.13, 2nd edition, Maternal Health and Safe Motherhood Programme, Division of Family Health, World Organisation, Geneva, 1993, Violence Against Women, WHO Doc., WHO/FRH/WHD/97.8. 50 – Beijing Platform for Action, para. 274.
ما عشان البلد وسخة مش محتلرمة مليانة خمرة و بانجو و مخدرات الحريم لازم يخلوا بالهم
Posted by REALITY CHECK (Member # 11887) on :
imshi ya arbagy
Posted by Batman , discovering lies (Member # 11915) on :
quote:Originally posted by REALITY CHECK: imshi ya arbagy
طيب ابقي خلي بالك من نفسك لحسن البلد مليانه خمورجية و محششين و ناس مسطولة كتيير
و مليانة كمان عربجية و شوارعجنجية
انتي بقا هتمشي ازاي في وسط العالم ده
ولا أي بنت هتمشي ازاي وسط العالم ده
go figure Posted by Batman , discovering lies (Member # 11915) on :
By the way,
Women rights is stolen every where not only in Egypt
Who stole these rights??
The Governments that don't ban Alcohol and Narcotic drugs.
U called me arbaggy" like rubbish in English" because i added my point of view. I dont think one like you will be able to launch Women rights by your abusive ways.
I will be happy if u managed to launch Women rights
Regards, Yours Arbaggy
Posted by REALITY CHECK (Member # 11887) on :
inta shaz Posted by tami025 (Member # 9181) on :
so when the quran tell us that if a man calls his wife to the bed and she refuses, the angels scorn her til' morning...that isnt rape? so if she isnt in the mood and doesnt want it one night, she has to allow him to do it anyway or else she is a sinner??? hmmm, makes me wonder. and that whole honor killing crap. if i saw someone kill their own child, i wouldnt think 'oh youre kid was a whore' i would be thinking, 'what the hell kind of sicko kills their own kid?'
Posted by BANANA FACE(luv it toots thnx) (Member # 11270) on :
but u see this is does happen and in many cases ithappens in western marriages too the exhusband was not very nice been there and wudnt want to be there again ,i know wat its like to be raped by your own husband to be raped by a stranger then dont know but then myhusband (ex) was a stranger ,quoted wudnt give it to him u go to the crner u stand wif one leg in a bucket of water and then ur leg is tied with rope and to his arm u move his arm move u suffered the concequences im not aashamed to tell this cus im knOW IM good person AND im lovely and beautiful not not the ugly person he made me to be ,,i tell allwomen now its not u its him ...but its not easy ,,being a muslim commnunity it has its stigma u had to be careful what u said and how u did ,,or they wud taunt u or spit at u the men ,,even though it was not you ,but after 16years im weary but changed i wonder for the good i have or not cause im changed i do not trust hardly any more ...
but let u on one note i have forgiven my exhusband cause he will answer to his fault when he dies so this is the challenge ive done my part and he since al this has suffered a great deal ,so i assume my guardian angel was with me inshallah
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by tami025: so when the quran tell us that if a man calls his wife to the bed and she refuses, the angels scorn her til' morning...that isnt rape?
It's MEN that tell us this, not the Qur'an.
A man who sleeps with a woman against her will is a rapist, whether he's married to her or not.
rape
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Is there recognition of marital rape in Islam?
In the context of jirah, it would appear so: where there is any physical harm or disease caused to a spouse, there may be a claim for jirah compensation. The law of jirah provides for compensation for physical harm between spouses, and supports Islamic legislation against domestic abuse. Even in these discussions of appropriate jirah compensation, the question of the injured party’s consent plays a central role. Some Islamic jurists considered consent to be presumed by virtue of the marital relationship, while others maintain that where harm occurs, it is an assault, regardless of the consent, and therefore compensation is due.
In our modern era, one might take these precedents and their premium focus on consent and apply the Islamic principle of sexual autonomy to conclude that any sex without consent is harmful, as a dishonoring of the unwilling party’s sexual autonomy. Thus, modern Islamic jurists and legislators, taking a gender-egalitarian perspective, might conclude that Islamic law does recognize marital rape, and assign the appropriate injunctions and compensation for this personally devastating harm." (Qureshi)
An often misquoted and abused hadith that is used to tyrannize women is that women cannot and should not say no to their husband when he approaches them. Women are advised not to turn away from their husbands except if they have their period or any other reasonable excuse. So much so that she is to break her voluntary fast if her husband approaches her. And if they do angels will curse them. However, this hadith is not quoted with the complementary one that advises men of the same consideration.
In the same manner men are advised that meeting the needs of their wives takes precedence over voluntary worship. Narrated Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-As: "Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “O Abdullah! I have been informed that you fast all the day and stand in prayer all night?” I said, ‘Yes, O Allah's Apostle!’ He said, “Do not do that! Observe the fast sometimes and also leave them at other times, stand up for the prayer at night and also sleep at night. Your body has a right over you and your wife has a right over you.” (Bukhâri)
To a certain degree these ahâdîth are used to confuse and distract from the issue, since rape does not have anything to do with permission or lack of permission. In a marriage abusive or forced sexual activity cannot be justified by abusing this hadith. Rape is defined as unwanted, violent and forced sex, whether this occurs in a marital context or outside it. The definition of rape does not change because of the relationship.
It is important to not confuse the issue of mutual rights that a couple has on each other with the misguided, distorted and misogynist assumption that women become a husband's property. Islam does not allow for or tolerate ownership of human beings. Human dignity does not allow that any one person has the right to own, mind/body/soul, another human being... and Islam demands that all human beings respect the humanity of everyone.
How do women get justice, in countries where rape is not illegal in marriage? Where do they go to find protection in countries where they have to ask their husband for permission to leave the house? How do women escape when they are not even allowed to drive? Who cares for the women, in countries where there are no refuge centres to escape to?
I find the declaration that ''raped women should not be punished incredible.'' What a notion.
Rape is a global issue. This problem is caused by the actions of some evil men. All good women and men should work hard to make sure that the shame of rape lands squarely on abusive men. Being married to a woman is not an excuse for abuse. Using religion to justify violating women is unacceptable. The law should offer justice, not protect ancient misogynistic views.
Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
Good article Banana. I wish those "devils on horseback", i.e. the Janjaweed in Sudan, would read this article. "Vengence is Mine", saith the Lord(Book of Romans). Salaam
Posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha (Member # 12077) on :
quote:Originally posted by MY NAME IS NO MORE .....,:
Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
Excerpted from :http://www.islamonline.net/ Fatwa
Islamonline is wrong. Western studies show that rape and sexual assualt is commited by someone the victim knows and it overwhelmingly done in the victim's own residence.
Islamonline is chosing to perpetuate a grandiose "urban myth" to encourage the curtailment of women's freedoms.
this excerpt is what troubles me most:
These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
the way "Islamonline" frames it as "the woman brought it on herself" which is normally a misgonist view of rape victims. Too bad a so called authority of how God wants us to live brings false testimony of how sexual assualts and rapes are commited and the setting in which they occur.
But what I have read on Islamonline, its pretty much the usual and why I don't trust Islamonline.
If Islamonline wants to help cut down on rapes and sexual assualts or end either, Islamonline needs to encourage victims to come forward even if it the crime was commited by a relative. Islamonline needs to understand that women who wear the Burqah are just as likely to be sexually assualted as women who dress like Pamela Lee Anderson. Its not the opportunity, its how men chose to view women and whether they chose to dehumanize them.
Islamonline needs to submit to God before they submit to male-power!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha:
Islamonline is wrong. Western studies show that rape and sexual assualt is commited by someone the victim knows and it overwhelmingly done in the victim's own residence.
Islamonline is chosing to perpetuate a grandiose "urban myth" to encourage the curtailment of women's freedoms.
this excerpt is what troubles me most:
These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
the way "Islamonline" frames it as "the woman brought it on herself" which is normally a misgonist view of rape victims. Too bad a so called authority of how God wants us to live brings false testimony of how sexual assualts and rapes are commited and the setting in which they occur.
But what I have read on Islamonline, its pretty much the usual and why I don't trust Islamonline.
If Islamonline wants to help cut down on rapes and sexual assualts or end either, Islamonline needs to encourage victims to come forward even if it the crime was commited by a relative. Islamonline needs to understand that women who wear the Burqah are just as likely to be sexually assualted as women who dress like Pamela Lee Anderson. Its not the opportunity, its how men chose to view women and whether they chose to dehumanize them.
I completely agree. And I find it very disturbing to see those myths and misconceptions being perpetuated on so many *Islamic* websites in an attempt to make a point against the West.
Posted by DAISUKE (Member # 12216) on :
STOP THIS RAPE NOW!!
Girls as young as 9 living in the streets in Iran Sat. 21 Oct 2006
Iran Focus
Tehran, Iran, Oct. 21 – Girls as young as nine are running away from their homes and living on the streets in Iran, according to a classified report issued by the Ministry of Education.
The report was made public by several Persian-language news websites run by former government officials.
It notes that there is an exceptionally high number of run-away girls near Iran’s holy cities of Qom and Mashad.
Iran has one of the highest record of runaway girls and women in the world.
The state-run news agency ILNA reported in July that there were some 300,000 run-away women and girls in Iran and that 86 percent of girls who ran away from their homes for the first time were raped. The majority of such victims are rejected by their families if they choose to return after having been raped.
Islamonline is wrong. Western studies show that rape and sexual assualt is commited by someone the victim knows and it overwhelmingly done in the victim's own residence.
Islamonline is chosing to perpetuate a grandiose "urban myth" to encourage the curtailment of women's freedoms.
this excerpt is what troubles me most:
These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
the way "Islamonline" frames it as "the woman brought it on herself" which is normally a misgonist view of rape victims. Too bad a so called authority of how God wants us to live brings false testimony of how sexual assualts and rapes are commited and the setting in which they occur.
But what I have read on Islamonline, its pretty much the usual and why I don't trust Islamonline.
If Islamonline wants to help cut down on rapes and sexual assualts or end either, Islamonline needs to encourage victims to come forward even if it the crime was commited by a relative. Islamonline needs to understand that women who wear the Burqah are just as likely to be sexually assualted as women who dress like Pamela Lee Anderson. Its not the opportunity, its how men chose to view women and whether they chose to dehumanize them.
I completely agree. And I find it very disturbing to see those myths and misconceptions being perpetuated on so many *Islamic* websites in an attempt to make a point against the West.
I agree with Albino and Dalia. It has taken enough time in western countries to stop idiotic old male judges linking the length of a woman's skirt to her 'encouraging' rape. Men who rape are 100 percent responsible for abusing women. Raped women don't 'Ask for it''. It's about time these outdated ideas were kicked out by Islamic websites. It doesn't reflect well on Islam.
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
DaisyDuke, a sad report and alarming statistics!
Posted by BANANA FACE(luv it toots thnx) (Member # 11270) on :
where wat report ,,someone has my avetar ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh so not good ....my banana Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
LOL, I just saw the banana and thought of you, Chimps. Apologies to both Daisy and Ms Banana. I've changed it. Posted by BANANA FACE(luv it toots thnx) (Member # 11270) on :
DAISY DUKE huh mean daisuks my banana,, Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
quote:Originally posted by BANANA FACE(luv it toots thnx): DAISY DUKE huh mean daisuks my banana,,
Oh, no...LOL. From now on, I will wear my reading glasses, before posting. Thanks Chimps. Oops, again Daisuke Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: It has taken enough time in western countries to stop idiotic old male judges linking the length of a woman's skirt to her 'encouraging' rape. Men who rape are 100 percent responsible for abusing women. Raped women don't 'Ask for it''. It's about time these outdated ideas were kicked out by Islamic websites. It doesn't reflect well on Islam.
RAPE MYTHS
Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of passion. The victim is irresistible to the rapist.
Fact: Rape is an act of violence, not of sexual desire. The majority of rapes are planned: the place arranged, enticement used, or the victim deliberately sought and coerced into sexual relations. It is the vulnerability of the victim that attracts the sexual predator. Victims range from infants to the elderly. Anyone, regardless of age, sex, physical appearance, marital status, ethnic, religious or socio-economic background can be raped.
Myth: Women are sexually assaulted when they are out alone at night. If women stay home they will be safe.
Fact: Studies show that the majority of sexual assaults are committed in either the victim’s home or the offender’s home.
Myth: Most rapists hide in dark alleys, waiting for a stranger to walk past.
Facts: The majority of reported rapes occur either in the victim’s home or the home of the attacker. In many cases, the victim met the offender in a public place and then was coerced into accompanying the rapist to the place of the assault. Most rape victims know their attacker at least casually. In many cases, offenders were well known to the victim and were in relationships that one would normally trust, i.e. boyfriend, family friend, close neighbor or relative.
Myth: Sexual assault is provoked by the victim. Victims ask for it by their actions, behaviors, or by the way they dress.
Fact: To say that someone wants to be raped is the same as saying that people ask to be mugged or robbed. In fact, most rapes are at least partially planned in advance and the victim is often threatened with death or bodily harm if he or she resists. Sexual assault is not a spontaneous crime of sexual passion. It is a violent attack on an individual using sex as a weapon. Sex is used to defile, degrade and destroy a victim’s will and control over his or her own body. For the victim, it is a humiliating, near death situation. No person would ask for or deserve such an attack.
Myth: Only “bad girls” get sexually assaulted.
Fact: Sexual assault occurs in all segments of our society. Most rapists choose their targets without regard to physical appearance or lifestyle. Victims are of every type, race, and socio-economic class, young and old alike.
Myth: Rapists are crazy, deranged, abnormal perverts. They are lonely men without female partnership.
Fact: Rape is not a crime of spontaneous passion. Studies show that 60 to 70% of all sexual assaults are planned. Most rapists are married and having consensual sexual relations while assaulting other women. Rapists themselves do not describe their motivation in terms of sexual gratification, but in terms of hatred and conquest. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and degradation on a victim. Indeed, rapists have said that rape is “lousy sex.” Sexual offenders come from all educational, occupational, racial and cultural backgrounds. They tend to test differently from the normal, well-adjusted male only in having a greater tendency to express violence and rage.
Pakistan's parliament has voted to amend controversial laws on rape, removing it from the sole jurisdiction of religious Sharia courts and placing it under the civil penal code. The change makes it easier for victims of rape to prosecute their attackers and has been praised by the Pakistani president.
Pervez Musharraf said the vote was necessary to amend the "unjust rape laws" and helped improve women’s rights.
The change however met with strong opposition by politicians from conservative Islamic parties, who stormed out of the parliament chamber in protest.
They are angry at what they say is the curtailment of Islamic law.
The changes must still be approved by the Pakistani senate in order to take effect. Unfair treatment
Under the Protection of Women Bill, judges will now have the discretion to try rape cases in a criminal rather than an Islamic court.
Until now, rape victims had to produce four – usually male - witnesses to the rape in order to result in a conviction. If not, they could themselves be prosecuted for adultery.
The laws formed part of the Hudood Ordinances introduced in 1979 by Pakistan’s then military ruler, Zia-ul-Haq.
The changes, if approved, will allow convictions to be made on the basis of forensic and circumstantial evidence.
Shaukat Aziz, the Pakistani prime minister, said after the vote would "help lessen to a great extent the unfair and illegal treatment meted out to women".
But, he added, "we are fully aware of the fact that we still have a lot more to do."
Women’s rights groups meanwhile have given the vote a cautious welcome.
"We wanted a total repeal of the 1979 rape law, but the government has not done it," Hina Jillani, a leading Pakistani activist, told the Associated Press news agency.
Conservative opposition politicians have said they will fight to make sure the bill does not pass the senate stage.
"We reject it," said Malaun Fazlur Rahman, head of the Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam (Islamic Party of Religious Leaders).
I am a Muslimah and like all other Muslims, I don’t have a brain. Kafirs may think that living without a brain is difficult, but someone called A.T.M.M (Allah the most merciful) has shown us a way of living without a brain.
We do exactly what a Mullah says and the Mullah says exactly what is written in Qura’n. So, we live on this earth following the words of A.T.M.M. We don’t think of our own. We don’t have our own ideas on anything. When Mullahs tell us something we just obey them. Even though I live in India, I hate India the most, just because Mullahs told me to hate India. I do whatever possible to see the destruction of India. Kafirs may think that living in India and trying to destroy India is something like setting fire to one’s own house. But it has been written in Qura’n that this world is divided into two, dar-ul-islam and dar-ul-harb, and that I should always work for destroying darb-ul-harb. That is what the mullahs taught me. I follow that exactly although it means destroying my own country. Kafirs may think that I am foolish, but they think because they have an additional organ in their body, called brain in which the Satan resides. I am fortunate that I am a Muslimah and I don’t have a brain.
When I was a schoolgirl, my classmates used to sing the national song of India “vande mataram” which means ‘I bow before my motherland’ during the school assembly. But I used to keep quite because being a Muslim I should bow only before A.T.M.M and the mullahs (As per my knowledge, Allah and mullah are brothers and a mullah lives exploiting the faith that people have in Allah). Most of my classmates were Kafirs. Though they loved me more than their lives, I hated them. But I acted as if I loved them. One of my Kafir friends had some strange ideas. She always used to tell me that god doesn’t need mosques, churches or temples to live in. Instead of wasting money on mosques, churches and temples, people should spend money on helping each other. According to her, “humanity” is the greatest religion. Being a Muslimah, I consider humanity as the greatest threat to Islam.
My eldest brother became a smuggler at 22 years of age when I was in sixth grade. All other brothers joined him later. Kafirs say that Muslims can be easily made to join in smuggling gangs and terrorist organizations as Muslims can be easily brainwashed. That makes me laugh. A Muslim can be washed, but not brainwashed, as we Muslims are lucky in not having a brain. Kafirs complain that instead of doing some productive works, Muslims either become smugglers or terrorists. What is wrong in being a smuggler or a terrorist? If you have a brain then you will think it is wrong. But if you remove the evil organ called brain from your head, you will understand how noble these professions are.
I got married at a very young age like most of the other Muslim women. Today I am the wife of a proud jihadi and mother of 9 children. I want to give birth to at least 6 more children. Kafirs may laugh at this but they laugh because they have an additional organ called brain. We Muslims have no brains and we will go on producing children like machines till our Muslim army is big enough to defeat the Kafir army.
All of my eight brothers are smugglers and I help them in all possible ways to destroying the economy of my country, India. My husband is a jihadi leader who gets frequent training from Pakistan. His terrorist organization gets all the money from Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East. He often tells me that Saudi Arabia is the father of jihad and Pakistan is the mother, so we should always respect these two countries. Of course, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have a special place in the minds of all Muslim children. I have heard them singing “ Jihad, Jihad, everywhere, Saudi Arabia is the father and Pakistan is the mother”. United States of America, our worst enemy claims that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are its closest allies in the war against terror. Wow, how thrilling! It is better to be a Muslim than being an American as it is better not to have a brain than having a brain and not using it.
My husband was once caught by the police, but thanks to the democratic system that exists in my country. Congress and communist leaders came rushing in to save my husband. They somehow forced the police to let him free even without registering a case against him. Recently, a bullet from the police hit my husband’s leg. Now he is planning to retire from jihad and become a mullah. In the past, the practice was that mullahs became jihadi leaders at the end of their career, but today the practice is that jihadis become mullahs at the end of their career. My husband tells me that mullahs have the “holy license” to lead a luxurious life sucking the blood of common Muslims. That means I can lead a luxurious life along with my husband, his three other wives (I call them co-wives) and our army of children. Our children are also very happy about it (I did not mention the total number of children because I have not counted them till date). My husband knows nothing other than loving Islam, giving hate speeches and killing civilians. Naturally, becoming a mullah becomes his only choice after retirement. He has never even seen the gate of a school or a college. Schools are places where it is taught that earth is round! How stupid! It has been stated in Qur’an that earth is flat. Just by looking down itself one can understand that the earth is flat. The additional organ called brain is really spoiling the Kafirs. In schools, some other stupidities are also taught, like, “theory of evolution” and “solar system”. According to Qur’an, all the human beings are made of dirt. Sun rises from the mud and sets in the mud. So why are schools wasting time teaching “theory of evolution” and “solar system”? I am really tired of these Kafirs.
Mullahs teach the Muslim community the real science called “Miracles of Islam”. Some people who are hesitant in respecting mullahs argue that according to true Islam, mullahs have no place in the religion. But being Allah’s brothers, Mullahs voluntarily came forward to help Allah in establishing his laws of the land. Allah-mullah duo works with great coordination, even better than Ronaldo-Ronaldinjho duo for achieving their goals. I don’t know what Allah gets by establishing his law on the land, but I know exactly what mullahs get. Mullahs attain high social status, political strength as well as economic power through helping Allah. Wow, three birds in one shot! There is no wonder why mullahs came forward to help their brother Allah. Kafirs can’t understand what a common Muslim gains by letting mullahs suck our blood and eat away our freedom. Some of them even say that mullahs lead a ‘shameless’ life by exploiting ordinary Muslim masses. Mullahs are never doing anything ‘shameless’. If a prostitute lives by selling her body, what is wrong in a mullah living by selling his religion?
My husband as well as my brothers can’t live without my assistance. I give them new ideas everyday, be it killing civilians or smuggling drugs. Still I consider myself a less intelligent compared to them just because A.T.M.M has told that we women are less intelligent compared to men. After my death, even if I reach heaven, I well get nothing as nothing is available for a woman in the heaven. But, my husband will get 72 houris with swelling boobs and large eyes. Anyway, I am really afraid of hellfire. I can’t even imagine myself getting burnt in hellfire. I always carry a fire extinguisher along with me so that if I die and reach hell, I can save myself from A.T.M.M’s punishment “hellfire”. We Muslims are ready to turn the whole world into a bloody hell in order to save ourselves from going to hell. Kafirs have no other choice than going to hell according to our great religion. I know why Kafirs never make it to heaven. They have an evil organ in the body, BRAIN. What is this stupid organ all about? It is really making me curious. Is it possible to buy a brain from somewhere? I want to live with a brain just for one day. I just want to know what this thinking process is. I want to know why I would question Qur’an as well as Allah-mullah duo’s supremacy, if I have a brain. Where can I buy a brain? Even if I live with a brain for one day, I may not reach heaven. But I know the solution. With a brain I can THINK and find out some way of reaching heaven without Allah-mullah duo’s knowledge. So I want a brain just for one day.
Where can I buy a brain?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
CONSENT? WHAT CONSENT?
By Jawad Ali
Question: Is it not a form of sexual abuse for a husband to be able to force his wife to have sex? How come the wife does not have the same right?
Answer: ...there is a legal difference between the husband and wife’s right to sex: the husband can demand sex, and the wife is obliged to agree unless there is a genuine physical or Shariah preventative. Even if she disagrees, he has the legal right to insist that she comply. While it is obligatory for the husband to fulfill his wife’s sexual needs, she cannot demand that he have sex with her if he does not want to. (their emphasis)
Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani at SunniPath.com. Read the entire thing here .
Here are 17 observations in no particular order (seventeen is a good Islamic number):
1. Marital rape is wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
2. People who don’t understand this should not be issuing fatwas. Children shouldn’t be playing with matches.
3. The sheikh argues that if a man is not allowed to have sex with his wife (with or without her consent), then he will go out and create abominations is society. There is no guarantee that such a man will cause abominations. There is an absolute guarantee of abomination if a man has sex with his wife without her consent.
4. One abomination that the sheikh does mention by name is masturbation. Dear Islamic scholars, if you are thinking of sexually abusing your wife, please go ahead and use the fist instead. Please do it in moderation. You have my permission as long as it is your own.
5. The only other abomination that the scholar mentions is that a woman's right to sexual consent will cause “sexual politics” in the family. Maybe it did not occur to him that the presence of sexual abuse may cause sexual politics in the household also.
6. All the Islamic sources that the sheikh cites are gender neutral and make the general opposite point: “men be kind to your wives, women be kind to your husband” sort of stuff. The scholar does not explain how he extracted “man demands non-consensual sex: allowed. Woman demands the same: not allowed” from these.
7. The only quote that he uses that is not perfectly gender neutral is the famous one about angels cursing wives who do not give their consent for sex every single time. The sheikh makes no effort to explain why this means that no consent is required to begin with.
8. Where do all these abominable fatwas come from?
a. Some come from poor Shariah, such as the obviously man made hadith mentioned above. b. Some come from terrible logic applied to perfectly good Shariah. Take two verses from the Quran that say "be kind to your wife" and conclude that this proves that a wife’s consent is not needed for sex. There is a lot of “2 + 2 = 5” in traditional Islamic scholarship, and the teacher is always right no matter what he comes up with. c. Sometimes it is neither a set of bad sources, or bad logic applied to good sources. Sometimes it is bad social science and bad understanding of human nature that is masquerading as Allah’s will.
9. One of the silliest (but not uncommon) objections to a woman leading the prayers is that the sight of a woman in prayer would drive men into an uncontrolled sexual frenzy. I don’t know what sort of perverts these scholars hang out with, but that is not how any man I have ever known behaves. This sort of amateur (and perverse) social theory lies at the heart of a lot of Islamic ruling on gender issues.
10. Maybe Islamic scholars should discuss the reasons why a wife might not want sex on a particular day, and all the things that a husband could do short of forcing himself upon her. Listening to her would be a good start. Maybe a little cuddling would be nice too. Maybe it's his turn to empty the dishwasher.
11. I am not impressed that these harsh and unkind rulings come packaged in general platitudes about Islamic kindness. Hogwash. Don’t tell me that it is OK for me to rape the cleaning lady when she comes over, and then add that the rape must be conducted within the framework of Islamic kindness. Man’s laws about marital rape can not coexist with God’s laws about kindness and justice. One or the other has to give.
12. Among the sources that the sheikh cites are “a scholar” and “one of the scholars from Syria” without any further references. Maybe a high-school level critical thinking and writing class should be required from all Sunni Path muftis. Of course, none of these anonymous scholars have anything specific to say about not needing a wife’s consent.
13. Maybe the scholar has some secret sources that directly support his twisted logic about sexual consent. Why does he bother with the rest of the mumbo-jumbo if he is not going to share these sources?
14. The scholar says that good sex makes a happy marriage, and then he adds that Western studies agree with this. Hey, even I agree with this. But who cares what Western studies say? If the good scholar is so concerned about Western studies then maybe he should look up what they say about sex without consent.
15. Sunni Path is not some fringe loony institution located in tribal areas of Pakistan. They are a mainstream American Muslim institution, as best as I can tell. “Most of our teachers were raised and educated in the West and only studied with teachers in the Muslim heartlands later in their lives,” they proclaim. This is explained in the section where they talk about how they are "sensitive to the needs of Muslims living in the modern world."
quote:Originally posted by tami025: so when the quran tell us that if a man calls his wife to the bed and she refuses, the angels scorn her til' morning...that isnt rape?
It's MEN that tell us this, not the Qur'an.
A man who sleeps with a woman against her will is a rapist, whether he's married to her or not.
rape
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
No Qur'an tell us that
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
God is aware of men's needs. He knows that a man may have just come home, and maybe he desires something or maybe he saw something. He knows what this need is, and this is why he ordered the wife to consent to her husband, even if she is by the stove. Even if she is baking she must consent to him. Moreover, the Prophet Muhammad said to the woman: "Compare yourself to him, he's your paradise and your hell." Imam Ahmad passed this on in his true Hadith. The wife must consent to her husband's wishes and obey him.
The wife in the West is not obligated to do so. Moreover, a wife can be raped by her husband there. They claim that if he has sex with her against her will - this is rape! They consider this rape. They claim she must be willing. They claim that she must want it. There is a disagreement in the West on this issue. Some do give the husband the right to whatever he wants, but in many other cases they don't. Therefore, the wife doesn't submit to the man whenever he wants.
I need a smiley puking his guts out. Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Dalia you need to quit it. You know the hadeeth. You know it's authentic. Just be a good Muslimah if/when your husbands calls you to bed..just go and obey like good wife.
Don't make trouble don't make the angels mad..just go. Stop trying to bump up against the system.
Women like you are making the problems not the men. You hate to be told to do anything especially by a man. Get over it.
We are not equal (men/women) we both have different roles to play and fulfil such is life. Good, bad, right or wrong, like it or not. You ain't gonna change Islaam to some new age thinking cult. It ain't gonna happen. The Quran and ahadeeh will always disprove your theories any day, any time walhamdulillah.
Posted by reserved (Member # 14062) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Dalia you need to quit it. You know the hadeeth. You know it's authentic. Just be a good Muslimah if/when your husbands calls you to bed..just go and obey like good wife.
Don't make trouble don't make the angels mad..just go. Stop trying to bump up against the system.
Women like you are making the problems not the men. You hate to be told to do anything especially by a man. Get over it.
We are not equal (men/women) we both have different roles to play and fulfil such is life. Good, bad, right or wrong, like it or not. You ain't gonna change Islaam to some new age thinking cult. It ain't gonna happen. The Quran and ahadeeh will always disprove your theories any day, any time walhamdulillah.
I'm starting to wonder if Sammy hires people like you and hormheb to juice up the forum a bit! How much does he pay you?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by reserved:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Dalia you need to quit it. You know the hadeeth. You know it's authentic. Just be a good Muslimah if/when your husbands calls you to bed..just go and obey like good wife.
Don't make trouble don't make the angels mad..just go. Stop trying to bump up against the system.
Women like you are making the problems not the men. You hate to be told to do anything especially by a man. Get over it.
We are not equal (men/women) we both have different roles to play and fulfil such is life. Good, bad, right or wrong, like it or not. You ain't gonna change Islaam to some new age thinking cult. It ain't gonna happen. The Quran and ahadeeh will always disprove your theories any day, any time walhamdulillah.
I'm starting to wonder if Sammy hires people like you and hormheb to juice up the forum a bit! How much does he pay you?
Darn it! I've been busted.
Remember people don't forget to support our advertisers!
(Be quiet reserve don't tell anyone let's just keep this between you and I okay?)
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Islam and the Submission of Women
FP: So tell us in general where Islam stands on women and why.
Warner: Islam’s stand on women is the same as its stand on every issue—duality and submission. Dualism demands that everything is seen, not as a unified whole, but as divided. The primary political duality is the division between kafirs (unbelievers) and believers. The primary internal duality is the division between males and females.
The principle of submission means that one must rule over the other. No surprise, the women must submit to the men.
CSPI measured the submission of the female to the male by analyzing the Islamic doctrine. All of Islam’s doctrine is found in the Koran, the Hadith (Traditions) and the Sira (the life of Mohammed), the Trilogy. We collected every verse, every paragraph and every sentence that mentioned women and their power relationships. These were all categorized into the women being superior, inferior, equal or merely mentioned.
In 4% of the cases, women were superior, in 91% of the cases they were inferior and in 5% they were equal. But there is a big catch. The only way that women are equal is after death on Judgment day, when men and women will be judged on how well they followed the Koran and the Sunna. And guess what? The only way to follow the Koran and the Sunna is to obey men. Equality means obeying men.
Woman are superior by being a mother, who must obey her husband. So the perfect woman on Judgment day will be a mother, who obeyed all the men in her life. So really, the women are subordinate to men in 100% of all of the Koran, Hadith and the Sira.
FP: So what’s the story on sex in heaven? Apparently men will have lots of fun but not women?
Warner: What does the perfect Muslim woman find when she gets to Paradise? A male Paradise. Her husband will have his pick of Allah’s houris for sex. These houris are the perfect Islamic women. They are light-complexioned, sexy, shy, perpetual virgins who never say no.
The question arises: why shy and why virgins? Since submission is key to Islam, then submission must apply in Paradise as well. A virgin knows nothing, is a blank slate, and is easily dominated. A shy woman has the same submissive qualities. A houri will not even look you in the eye, nor offer any opinions about anything.
The word houri never appears in the Koran. It is always in the plural, houris, although the Koran does not say 72 virgins, just virgins. So a subservient Islamic woman must wait in line behind perfect women to see her husband. The promised equality on Judgment day would imply that there are male houris for her pleasure, but no. There are eternally young, beautiful boys, but they don’t seem to be there for the women.
However, women are included in the drinking wine, fine food, lying about in the shade and watching and taunting the kafirs (unbelievers) burning in Hell. So Paradise is just like earth, a place based upon duality and submission. Women must submit to men in this life and the life hereafter.
This parallel between Islam after death and in this life is important. Islam is usually seen as a vague and confusing doctrine. This is not true. All of Islam is built on duality and submission. Islam is absolutely logical and coherent in heaven, hell and earth. Islam is submission and duality yesterday, today and tomorrow.
FP: Why does Islam teach that most people in hell will be women?
Warner: Women may come up shy in Paradise, but they get more than their fair share of justice in Hell. The Bukhari’s Hadith (Traditions) record over twenty times how the majority of those in Hell will be women. Why are these women in Hell? Murder? Theft? Lying? Cheating? No, they were not grateful to their husband. They were not submissive enough.
In the same hadith, Mohammed says that women are not as smart as men. That is the reason that it takes two women to equal the testimony of one man. By that formula, a woman is half as smart as a man. The final part of this hadith also assures us that women are spiritually inferior to men because they can’t pray when having their period.
Again, all of this is a manifestation of submission, women must submit to men in all things including intelligence and spirituality.
This inferiority started with Mohammed, just like everything else in Islam. Since Mohammed is the ideal model of a Muslim, the one to be copied in everything, we must turn to Mohammed to understand sexual roles in Islam.
FP: How many wives did Mohammed have?
Warner: We know a great deal about Mohammed’s sexuality. It is recorded in incredible detail. Mohammed’s sexual life is like the Koran in that it is divided into Mecca (early) and Medina (later). In Mecca he was married to a widow and had six children. His wife died shortly before he was driven out of Mecca into Medina. After her death, his sex life took an abrupt turn. He engaged himself to Aisha at the age of six and also married a widow.
In Medina he (age 53) started having sex with the nine-year-old Aisha. She was always his favorite. Most of the sexual details are told by Aisha and recorded in the Hadith.
By the time he died he had nine wives and several sex slaves. Mohammed is seen as the perfect Islamic husband and part of his perfection is his role as “stud” in the harem. Every Muslim male wants to be like Mohammed.
FP: How about the subject of wife beating?
Warner: Women must submit to men in all things. But this causes some human problems. If the woman does not submit, what is the man to do? After all, the wife will have violated the sacred law of submission. Mohammed had a solution to this misbehavior—beat her. After all, Allah said it was good to beat the wife. Koran 4:34 says that if a wife is not submissive, first admonish them and remind them that Allah wants them to submit. If they don’t submit then use social pressure by ignoring them and not having sex. If that doesn’t work, then beat them lightly.
Mohammed laid out more rules for these beatings. Do not strike them in the face. (That leaves public bruises.) One of his rules (Sunna) was not to ask a man why he beats his wife.
He stood around, more than once, while beatings were administered to women and slaves. Beatings are a fundamental part of Islamic justice. The Koran mentions Job beating his wife, beatings in Hell and beatings for adultery. Mohammed gave advice to a woman not to marry a certain man because he beat his wives, but he did not condemn the beatings. When a woman came before him seeking justice about her husband, her face was bruised from a beating. Mohammed made no comment about the beating that bruised her face.
Beating the Muslim wife is not to be done in outrage. No, the husband is putting the world into Islamic order of duality and submission. The husband submits to Allah and the Sunna of Mohammed. The wife must submit to Allah, the Sunna and her husband. Her lack of submission is a fault in the world and the beating restores the proper order of submission. Beatings are justice. So when the husband beats his wife, both are partaking in a sacred moment of good (what is permitted).
FP: Did Mohammed beat any of his wives?
Warner: We have only one record of Mohammed hitting one of his wives, Aisha. Her father, in the presence of Mohammed, also hit Aisha. Mohammed made no complaint. At one period in Medina, Mohammed said not to beat women. But that developed into the practical advice that if you beat your wife during the day, don’t expect to get any loving that night.
Mohammed was around a lot of beatings. For example, he stood by while Ali beat Mohammed’s slave to make her tell the truth about the affair of Aisha and her possible assignation with a jihadist.
FP: What was Mohammed’s family life like?
Warner: Mohammed had a very busy family life. But even though he was the most perfect man who ever lived, life was not always harmonious around the house. His favorite wife was the little Aisha, but for a while his favorite sex partner was a Christian slave called Mary. She was a gift to him and came with a sister. He gave the sister away as a present to help placate his favorite poet.
One day, one of his wives, Hafsa, went into her room to find Mohammed in some state of intimacy with his sex slave. Now, it was granted by Allah that Mohammed could have as many sex slaves as he wished, but not in a wife’s bedroom. Hafsa was outraged and Mohammed tried to placate her and told her not to mention it to the other wives. Good luck. The harem erupted in anger and coolness.
Mohammed retreated from his wives and set up his sex slave in another apartment. He stayed away for a month. Allah even weighed in on his sex life (Allah had a lot to say about Mohammed and sex and it was all good for Mohammed). Allah said Mohammed could divorce all of them and get better ones, if he wanted.
In the end, he went back to his familiar family scene.
Allah also gave him permission to marry his daughter-in-law. Mohammed craved his adopted son’s wife. Incest laws prevented his marriage, but Allah weighed in and said that his adopted son was never a real son, so go ahead and marry her. Even Aisha remarked that Allah was quick to grant Mohammed his pleasures.
There is a large amount of text about how the wives fought, argued, and plotted against each other. Jealousy was an ongoing state of affairs in the Mohammed household. It turns out that you can’t get a houseful of women to live in harmony with the ideal man.
FP: Can you talk a bit about menstruation?
Warner: Islam is always about submission and duality. What is amazing is how completely this is applied. There is no part of being a human being that is not to submit to Islam. Women are divided from men and must submit in all things, including every aspect of femininity. Men tell women what they can and cannot do about their most personal life, having a period. Allah and Mohammed tell women that they are unclean during their period. They should not go the mosque or pray during their period.
But it does not stop there. Men even tell women how long to nurse a child. Islam is obsessive/compulsive. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is left out for Islam to dictate.
FP: Is it true that Islamic doctrine advocates rape?
Warner: Mohammed and the Koran advocate rape of the kafirs. After their battles the jihadists partook in the pleasure of raping the wives and daughters of the conquered men. Duality separates the kafirs from a real humanity and submission means that the cruelest treatment is given to them so they will submit. It is only just.
Rape is a supreme tactic of war and Mohammed used it in everyway possible. Rape humiliates the kafir men and crushes the spirit of the women. It is the perfect weapon of fear and subjugation. How much more humiliated and subjugated can a woman be? The history of jihad shows that rape was a constant.
Rape is in use today, but the media refuses to talk about it. The media does not want to offend Islam by unpleasant news. The use of rape by Islam is a forbidden topic. Islamic rape of European women is happening now, but our media refuses to ever mention it. Now, it could be that the media does not like to connect sexual malfeasance with a religion, but the media eagerly reports about Catholic priests and children for instance. Think of the number of times the press has covered some preacher’s sexual misconduct. No, the media loves sex and religion.
What the media does not want to do is to criticize anything about Islam. Reporting the rape of the school children at Beslan, Russia would mean finding fault in Islam. And Islam would harass the media. The media fear Islam.
Dualistic ethics make rape a virtue. Islam has one ethical code for Muslims and another one for kafirs—dualism. The kafir woman is not real human. Allah hates kafirs and sanctioned rape. So when a Muslim rapes a kafir, he is partaking in sacred behavior, sanctioned by his ethics. Rape of the kafir is Sunna (following the ideal behavior of Mohammed).
FP: Why is the veil/hijab so important and what is its real role?
Warner: The veil is the supreme symbol of duality and Islam. How separate can a woman be? The most dangerous aspect of a women is her sexuality. All aspects of the veil/hijab control this, including the headscarf. It says to Muslims, “I have submitted to Islamic men.”
The Muslim female dress is a battle flag of jihad. She is better than us. It says to the civilization of equality and freedom, “I hate your freedom. I hate your equality. I want nothing of you (except your money and technology).” For the kafir the veil is the same symbol of subjugation and oppression that of the Ku Klux Klan white robe.
The veil/hijab is also a way of subjugating the woman in public. All aspects of being a woman are controlled by Islam (men).
In the end, there are two things to remember about Islam and sex—duality and submission . Islamic dualism separates men from women. Submission makes sure that the women submit to the men.
Islam is a civilization that is entirely based upon duality and submission. Our civilization is based upon equality and freedom. These two civilizations cannot co-exist. Islam is ahead of us here, because the incompatibility of the two is clearly stated and gives the world the solution for this incompatibility. We must submit to Islam and exchange freedom and equality for Islamic slavery.
This is not really an inherent problem, since we have faced other doctrines that said we must submit. Communism and Nazism come to mind. In the past our intellectuals have attacked our enemies of our civilization and defended our civilization. But our intellectual system has degenerated and is no longer capable of defending us or attacking our enemy.
Our intellectuals have decided that we don’t even have a civilization, it is just one big multicultural world where all of the cultures are equal. So there is nothing to defend.
FP: Bill Warner, thank you for joining us.
Warner: Thank you Jamie. web page Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Just be a good Muslimah if/when your husbands calls you to bed..just go and obey like good wife.
Don't make trouble don't make the angels mad..just go.
You're trying a bit too hard, sands, it's very obvious. But continue the good work, you keep cracking me up.
But you know, I can imagine better things for my life than being no more than a hole for a man's sperm that he can use and dispose of whenever he wishes. Unfortunately, people like this sheikh are so stuck up in their own desires, ideas and ignorance that they are unable to see a woman as anything else but a sexual object and a slave to her husband. "God is aware of men's needs" ... yeah, right! And what about womens' needs? Just because Mr Al Munajjid couldn't care less about womens' needs he assumes God doesn't either. Big mistake imo ...
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Just be a good Muslimah if/when your husbands calls you to bed..just go and obey like good wife.
Don't make trouble don't make the angels mad..just go.
You're trying a bit too hard, sands, it's very obvious. But continue the good work, you keep cracking me up.
But you know, I can imagine better things for my life than being no more than a hole for a man's sperm that he can use and dispose of whenever he wishes. Unfortunately, people like this sheikh are so stuck up in their own desires, ideas and ignorance that they are unable to see a woman as anything else but a sexual object and a slave to her husband. "God is aware of men's needs" ... yeah, right! And what about womens' needs? Just because Mr Al Munajjid couldn't care less about womens' needs he assumes God doesn't either. Big mistake imo ...
Everyone knows women are sexual creatures too. Even Umar bin Khattab (RA) asked Hafs this question and this was the reason he called the men back from jihad after 4 months of service.
Don't act like you women don't need or want sex. If anyone being hard here it's you Dalia..loosen up a bit..you'll enjoy the finer things in life better inshaa Allah.
Posted by Om Bubblemouth (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: How do women get justice, in countries where rape is not illegal in marriage?
Marital rape isn't even illegal in the State of Maryland unless the husband threatens or uses force. A simple *no* does not count in Maryland. I'm sure several other U.S. states are like this, too. Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Does this marial rape issue go for me as well?
Are men able to be raped by women and take their wives to court for marital rape?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Lord Woolf, issuing new sentencing guidelines to Crown Court judges, agreed with the view that "rape is rape" and cannot be divided into more or less serious offences.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Okay Dalia is not the only one who has to answer that question.
Can a woman/wife rape her husband?
Can a GF rape her BF?
Can a mistress rape her lover?
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Amnesty reports widespread rape in Sudan
Arab militias in Sudan are gang-raping and abducting girls as young as eight and women as old as 80, systematically killing, torturing, or using them as sex slaves, an Amnesty International report has said.
Militias known as Janjaweed, which rights groups say are backed by the government, have been fighting rebels in Sudan's western Darfur region since last year, triggering one of the world's worst humanitarian crises.
"When we tried to escape they shot more children," one woman told Amnesty researchers.
"They raped women, I saw many cases of Janjaweed raping women and girls. They are happy when they rape. They sing when they rape and they tell us that we are just slaves and that they can do with us how they wish."
Homes bombed, crops stolen
As many as 30,000 people have been killed in Darfur and more than a million displaced, their homes bombed by government planes, their crops stolen.
In a report called "Rape as a Weapon of War", Amnesty outlines sexual violence against women it says is happening on a massive scale. It says Khartoum is actively violating its legal obligations to protect civilians.
"Soldiers of the Sudan government army are present during attacks by the Janjaweed and when rapes are committed, but the Sudan government has done nothing so far to stop them," Amnesty researcher Benedicte Goderiaux told a news conference.
Darfur's rebels accuse the government of arming the Arab Janjaweed to loot and burn African villages in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Khartoum denies the charge.
The Sudan embassy in Beirut said in a statement that the Amnesty report was aimed at defaming the government, distorting Arab culture and driving a wedge between Sudan's ethnic groups.
Gang rapes
The Amnesty report, launched in Beirut and Nairobi, details gang rapes, public rapes, killings of those who resist rape, abductions for sexual slavery, and cases where women and girls have had their legs broken to stop them running away.
It is based on hundreds of testimonies collected from refugees in camps in Chad. Although the sample of victims was limited, Amnesty said it pointed to widespread abuse.
The London-based group said rebels fighting the Janjaweed may also have raped civilians, but facts were limited.
One woman was five months pregnant when the Janjaweed abducted her and eight others during an attack in July.
"After six days some of the girls were released. But the others, as young as eight years old, were kept there," she said.
"Five to six men would rape us in rounds, one after the other for hours during six days every night. My husband could not forgive me after this, he disowned me."
Calls for disarmament
Efforts to end the crisis through negotiations are in tatters after rebels stormed out of peace talks last week. They said they would only meet government delegates when Khartoum fulfilled promises including disarming the Janjaweed.
Amnesty called for an end to the conflict, better protection of civilians, Janjaweed disarmament, trials for those carrying out the attacks and an international commission of inquiry to examine war crimes in Darfur.
A separate conflict in Sudan between the government and southern rebels has killed around two million people in the past two decades. Peace negotiations have brought it close to an end.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Don't act like you women don't need or want sex.
You completely missed my point.
I know this is hard to comprehend for some people, but believe me -- even women with a high sex drive don't want to be raped.
Oh, and thanks for your advice, but I already know very well how to appreciate the finer things in life. Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Don't act like you women don't need or want sex.
You completely missed my point.
I know this is hard to comprehend for some people, but believe me -- even women with a high sex drive don't want to be raped.
You're missing my point to. However, you (and the majority of the women here) keep bypassing over whether men can be martial rape by their spouses..still waiting for a reply.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Well, I guess they can, and if they do, the perpetrator should be punished, of course.
I don't know much about this subject though, I know men get raped by other men, but I guess men being raped by women is something that happens much less frequently.
I'm at work now, so I don't really have time to research this issue ... but I will later.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Well, I guess they can, and if they do, the perpetrator should be punished, of course.
I don't know much about this subject though, I know men get raped by other men, but I guess men being raped by women is something that happens much less frequently.
I'm at work now, so I don't really have time to research this issue ... but I will later.
Okay thanks..I wait for your research info..and also for other women to response.
However, please if it is the case that men are raped less frequently don't give it less credence and sweep this issue under the rug..it is just as important as women being "marital rape".
Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point?
Certainly a woman who rapes a man should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. No doubt, this is a harder case to prove let alone the fact that gender stereotypes will influence many people today to believe a man can't be raped. That is probably what you believe also, no?
Even though women can rape, such acts are perpetrated by males at such a higher frequency than women because agression and violence...thanks to testosterone...are simply wired into the male psyche far more than a woman.
Most men, no matter what country they are from, believe, on some level that they are entitled to their wife's body whenever they wish. Even American men...but American men have been properly educated and trained that this attitude will get them alot less action if they dare "demand" it.
The smart man respects his wife's feelings and moods...such give and take creates intimacy and helps them grow closer together...such intimacy creates emotional trust...an emotional need that needs to be met in a woman if she is going to desire her husband.
Posted by Om Bubblemouth (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Okay Dalia is not the only one who has to answer that question.
Can a woman/wife rape her husband?
Can a GF rape her BF?
Can a mistress rape her lover?
Yes. The simplest example is statutory rape. A person under a certain age is not deemed capable of giving consent.
When I worked in the court system, I had a case where a woman had sex with her own 9 year old son. She was charged with rape.
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Posted by reserved (Member # 14062) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it.
Didn't read the rest of the thread but I like your observation. Quite valid
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by humanist: [QB] Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point? QUOTE]
My point is/was can a woman commit marital rape. My point was NOT can a woman rape a man.
I asked 3 specific question.
You fail to answer NONE of them.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Very good question and perspective. I will try to find the answer for you Islamically. Even though the answer may have been given vaguely earlier.
Personally I can't see any pleasure or enjoyment out of having sex with an wife or husband is does not want to have sex. However, the question you raised is, "Is it permissible for a husband or wife" to force themselves on their spouse?
I'll will ask this question with a Scholar. I don't know the answer because the thought and I have never been around people who think like this walhamdulillah.
But I am sure Islam has an legitimate answer. We already now what SOME non-muslim governments feel about the issue.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Om Bubblemouth:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Okay Dalia is not the only one who has to answer that question.
Can a woman/wife rape her husband?
Can a GF rape her BF?
Can a mistress rape her lover?
Yes. The simplest example is statutory rape. A person under a certain age is not deemed capable of giving consent.
When I worked in the court system, I had a case where a woman had sex with her own 9 year old son. She was charged with rape.
Thank you for your input.
However, the issue here is NOT about statutory rape. I believe that is a whole different subject. The issue is marital rape. Where a spouse is charged with rape be it, male or female.
Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition? Can a woman rape her husband?
Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [QUOTE]Originally posted by humanist: [QB] Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point? QUOTE]
My point is/was can a woman commit marital rape. My point was NOT can a woman rape a man.
I asked 3 specific question.
You fail to answer NONE of them.
OK, let me help you connect the dots. I know its tough for someone with a lukewarm IQ like you...if a woman can rape a man than YES she can rape her husband....duhh?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by humanist:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [QUOTE]Originally posted by humanist: [QB] Yes, men can be raped by a woman. An erection can occur spontaneously, even though the man does not want sex. So what's your point? QUOTE]
My point is/was can a woman commit marital rape. My point was NOT can a woman rape a man.
I asked 3 specific question.
You fail to answer NONE of them.
OK, let me help you connect the dots. I know its tough for someone with a lukewarm IQ like you...if a woman can rape a man than YES she can rape her husband....duhh?
No it was I you helped you. Thank you for your response. The issue wasn't about rape per se. It was about marital rape. So do make a distinction.
Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
There is no difference between rape and maritial rape. both imply the act of forcible sex on an unwilling person. The "maritial" part is just semantics.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by humanist: There is no difference between rape and maritial rape. both imply the act of forcible sex on an unwilling person. The "maritial" part is just semantics.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Others have a different opinon, thus this is the reason for the thread. Thanks.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition?
Stupid question, rape is rape, as has been mentioned here several times. In my country you can go to prison for raping your wife, the same goes for some other countries. Whether the rapist is married to the victim or does not change the fact that it's a crime. Btw, studies have shown that women who get raped by a partner suffer even more from the consequences which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition?
Stupid question, rape is rape, as has been mentioned here several times. In my country you can go to prison for raping your wife, the same goes for some other countries. Whether the rapist is married to the victim or does not change the fact that it's a crime. Btw, studies have shown that women who get raped by a partner suffer even more from the consequences which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense.
Where do you live? Don't hide behind your country. Oh there you go with the guilt trip.."Btw, studies have shown that women who get raped by a partner suffer even more from the consequences which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense." You must have read the book "how to win friends and influence people." You always like to add side issue to the topic.
Again what is "YOUR" country?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Side issues? LOL, this thread is about rape, so how can mentioning the effects of rape be a side issue?
And, no, I haven't read the book, I'm not interested in winning friends and influencing people.
Have a great day, I have to start working now.
Some researchers have compared the psychological effects of being raped by one's partner to other forms of violence. Given that women who are raped by their partners are likely to experience multiple assaults, completed sexual attacks, and that they are raped by someone whom they once presumably loved and trusted, it is not surprising that marital rape survivors seem to suffer severe and long-term psychological consequences (Kilpatrick et al., 1988; Frieze, 1983). Similar to other survivors of sexual violence, some of the short-term effects of marital rape include anxiety, shock, intense fear, depression, suicidal ideation, disordered sleeping, and post-traumatic stress disorder (Bergen, 1996; Kilpatrick et al., 1988; Russell, 1990; Stermac et al., 2001).
Women raped by their intimate partners are more likely to be diagnosed with depression or anxiety than those who are victims of physical violence and those who were sexually assaulted by someone other than one's partner (Plichta & Falik, 2001). Long-term effects often include disordered eating, sleep problems, depression, sexual distress, problems establishing trusting relationships, distorted body image, and increased negative feelings about themselves (Bergen, 1996; Frieze, 1983; Ullman & Siegel, 1993).
Research has also indicated that the psychological effects are likely to be long lasting - some marital rape survivors report flash-backs, sexual dysfunction, and emotional pain for years after the violence (Bennice & Resick, 2003; Bergen, 1996; Finkelhor & Yllo, 1985).
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [QB] Side issues? LOL, this thread is about rape, so how can mentioning the effects of rape be a side issue?
And, no, I haven't read the book, I'm not interested in winning friends and influencing people.
Have a great day, I have to start working now.
LOL you skipped right over the 1st question, but I knew you would do that..You are so transparent.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
"...Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies, which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement!..."
Actually this part is not true!
Rape always occurs most in societies where women are viewed a sex objects and especially in societies where women have low status.
In fact there are or were many societies with permissive attitudes towards sex and where members of both sexes had sexual freedom and contact yet rape was unheard of! Such societies can still be seen today in many rural areas of Africa and Asia.
Rape is a violent act of power in which a mand displays the ultimate form of control over a woman by control over her body. It is only in societies where men have such views that rape is common. Take note that many Muslim societies like Palestine, Iran, and especially Pakistan have rate crimes as high if not higher than Western societies.
Posted by Om Bubblemouth (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: However, the issue here is NOT about statutory rape. I believe that is a whole different subject. The issue is marital rape. Where a spouse is charged with rape be it, male or female.
Can spouses be charged with rape. That is the quesition? Can a woman rape her husband?
It's all the same thing -- sex without *consent.* A person must consent to having sex or it is rape. Statutory rape merely means that a person has been deemed (by *statute* or law) incapable of giving consent to such a serious act because the person has not reached the age of majority.
Yes, a woman can rape her husband. *Consent* is key. This is not rocket science.
If you take a woman's (or man's) right to consent or refuse, then you are seeing her merely as property rather than as a human being. Your choice.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
I watched an interesting movie last night (One Way) in which a woman actually did *rape* the man who had raped her before. She used handcuffs, a gun and a rubber penis.
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
LMFAO, Dalia you gotta stop watching all that prono.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
I recommend checking a dictionary before using words whose meaning you obviously don't understand.
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
I love juice!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
She also shot him afterwards.
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
Oooh, that's dirty stuff!
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
I am Muslim woman, by birth. What Dalia wrote is true. She has proven her case because anything else is not making sense. Thank you Dalia for standing up for Truth and Islam the way it's intended. If a Muslim woman don't want to make love to her husband, she just like any Muslim man can freely say 'No'.
Do not listen to anyone else who tells you otherwise. I always encourage people to use their own common sense instead of applying theory blindly. You simply can't make someone have sex with you if person for whatever reason is not interested, even if that person is your wife.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I am Muslim woman, by birth. What Dalia wrote is true. She has proven her case because anything else is not making sense. Thank you Dalia for standing up for Truth and Islam the way it's intended. If a Muslim woman don't want to make love to her husband, she just like any Muslim man can freely say 'No'.
Do not listen to anyone else who tells you otherwise. I always encourage people to use their own common sense instead of applying theory blindly. You simply can't make someone have sex with you if person for whatever reason is not interested, even if that person is your wife.
Now I get it, because you (Lovingmylife) and Dalia understand it or because it make sense to the both of you because you are free thinkers and everyone else is bind we are just supposed to accept it.
Well we all might as well close the thread pack up everything and go home. Case closed.
We can now just refer to what you two feel is common sense and forget our own beliefs, thoughts and opinions.
You see a movie (disgusting one at that, at least from your description) and we are to derive factual evidence because of a movie? Oh and yes, because "lovingmylife" is a born Musliim also. I think you have expressed on several ocassions (whether openly or vaguely) that you have to be born into a Muslim family to truly understand Islaam. Everyone else is just blindly following. I could be wrong but that is the impression I gathered from several of your previous post.
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
A woman can rape a man if she wants to, by the use of a dildo like Dalia's movie suggests.
I don't see what's hard to understand there, the booklet only has one rule, insert dildo here.
Although it might be tough for a woman to get a man tied up anyway!
Posted by advocate (Member # 13367) on :
Leito you are CRAZY!!! Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
So, now you will marry me ?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: We can now just refer to what you two feel is common sense and forget our own beliefs, thoughts and opinions.
So what *are* your own beliefs, thoughts and opinions?
If you personally think rape and marital rape is ok, then stop beating around the bush and just say it, instead of hiding behind empty phrases, ridiculous polemics and lots of pseudo-Isläämic blabber.
Posted by advocate (Member # 13367) on :
Leito I am too old for you!!
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
Are you quite sure of that ?
Posted by Rumicrazieluv (Member # 12053) on :
quote:Originally posted by Leito: A woman can rape a man if she wants to, by the use of a dildo like Dalia's movie suggests.
I don't see what's hard to understand there, the booklet only has one rule, insert dildo here.
Although it might be tough for a woman to get a man tied up anyway!
It wouldnt be hard if you gave him a nice cup of tea before bed with a couple sleepers mixed up in it. Not enough to snow him completely, just long enough to cuff him to the bed. Then he would be wide awake knowing whats happening. If he was really nasty and deserved it then you would just sneak up on him when he is sleeping and crack him really good in the head with a cast iron skillet before chaining him to the bed.....
Disclaimer: I never took advantage of my exhusband nor any other male. This is purely speculation and planning ahead. I am a well organized person and you never know when you might have use for something. It is always good to be prepared . Nor am I encouraging women to drug and rape their husbands, So Ladies NEVER DO THIS AT HOME!!
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce our manrape expert ^^. Up there ^.
Haha, sleepers in tea ?
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: If you personally think rape and marital rape is ok
This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape.
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Posted by reserved (Member # 14062) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: If you personally think rape and marital rape is ok
This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape.
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse Posted by advocate (Member # 13367) on :
Leito, I can assure you I must be old enought to be your mother..now behave!!! Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
HEY, why is everyone telling me to behave ?! I wonder why ??!!
Anyway, I'm already gonna marry old bag. *blows raspberry*
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
quote:Originally posted by reserved: And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse
I hate to repeat myself, now for the third time, but since you are asking let me try again. Look for the word 'crime':
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Posted by reserved (Member # 14062) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect:
quote:Originally posted by reserved: And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse
I hate to repeat myself, now for the third time, but since you are asking let me try again. Look for the word 'crime':
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
I have to admit that I did not read the thread in its entirety and have no plans on doing so. From the snippets I read, the discussions revolve around "Rape" and "Marital Rape". You pointed out that no one is entitled to use force to secure their rights and I agreed.
Then Dalia posted a question which you quoted: "If you personally think rape and marital rape is OK"
Your reply: "This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape."
I took that to mean that you do not consider using force to have sexual intercourse with one's spouse to be "Rape"! And so I posed the question:
"And what do you call using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse"
Becasue everything I read in this thread dealt with rape and specifically Marital Rape. That is, as you put it, using force to secure one's right to sexual intercourse (I'm paraphrasing).
To which you replied:
"I hate to repeat myself, now for the third time, but since you are asking let me try again. Look for the word 'crime':"
Does that mean that you believe using force to secure one's right to sexual relation with a spouse is a crime other than rape?
I'm clearly missing the point regardless of what it is.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
In Islam, the husband can't claim to have rights over his wife's will, body, mind, and soul.
If she says no, and he says yes, that is still NO because she did not agree. It's her body. He can't now say, he has right over his wife's will, mind, body and soul. He doesn't.
That would be considered - rape. 100%
Wife is not denying him right to make love to her ( eventually ), she is telling him "without her this is not possible at this particular moment". ( maybe Later, can he wait? )
In other words, husband has right but only after she says - yes. ( self-explanatory )He can wait, that's why Islam teaches Patience as #1 islamic virtue, and fasting teaches you to learn how to control yourself.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: This was not addressed to me, but I have already pointed out that the issue raised in the OP is not about rape.
... I have one comment about the title of the thread versus the content of the thread.
If you have a right to something, this does not mean that you are entitled to use force to secure it. If someone owes you money and refuses to pay, they are at fault, but you can't pull a gun and force them to pay. That would be a crime regardless of who had the rights to what.
The question of whether sex is a marital right for men in Islam is an important question, but it is not a question about rape. If the wife is at fault for withholding sex from her husband, or the husband is at fault for say withholding support from his wife, this does not entitle the wronged party to use force to get what they want.
Sorry, but just like the poster above I do not understand at all what you're trying to say. Maybe you can clarify?
You are saying that having a right - such as a right to sleep with your wife - does not mean you're entitled to enforce that right.
Actually, I'm with you on that one, and it's also a point I made previously:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
rape does not have anything to do with permission or lack of permission. In a marriage abusive or forced sexual activity cannot be justified by abusing this hadith. Rape is defined as unwanted, violent and forced sex, whether this occurs in a marital context or outside it. The definition of rape does not change because of the relationship.
It is important to not confuse the issue of mutual rights that a couple has on each other with the misguided, distorted and misogynist assumption that women become a husband's property. Islam does not allow for or tolerate ownership of human beings. Human dignity does not allow that any one person has the right to own, mind/body/soul, another human being... and Islam demands that all human beings respect the humanity of everyone.
It is important to not confuse the issue of mutual rights that a couple has on each other with the misguided, distorted and misogynist assumption that women become a husband's property.
However, the issue we are debating here is that some people - and particularly some Islamic scholars - claim that it's ok for a man to force his wife to have sex with him and that this would NOT be considered rape. In fact, as I pointed out above, some are even mocking those who claim that a husband can rape his wife or have objections towards that. They simply deny that forced sex is rape if the perpetrator is married to the victim.
So my conclusion would be - yes, this thread is about rape! Or, more precisely, about who defines what as rape.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: It wouldnt be hard if you gave him a nice cup of tea before bed with a couple sleepers mixed up in it. Not enough to snow him completely, just long enough to cuff him to the bed. Then he would be wide awake knowing whats happening.
Exactly, it would be very easy. A few tranquilizers, maybe turn him on a bit, and slip the handcuffs on. Besides, many people actually do use handcuffs as an accessory for lovemaking, so you could just pretend you want to try something new. Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
I think Prince of Nothing would like a woman with handcuffs, he said he likes dominant women. Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Leito: Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce our manrape expert ^^. Up there ^.
Haha, sleepers in tea ?
ROFL ....I never knew I could laugh so hard from a thread about rape.
Posted by Leito (Member # 14189) on :
I think there's too many manrapists in this thread .
Thank god I don't drink tea .
*runs away laughing*
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
It does look like there is some scheming going on.....
......gold meekly raises hand to ask a question....
How would you get them to stop coming after you to even get the opportunity to rape a man? It seems like it might just be another excuse for them to use to get in your pants....I mean he would be like, you can rape me if you want .... Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
Oh, never mind, I get it now...that is what the tranquilizers are for ... Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
How come when I make a post and it says the number of Post: 381 then when I make another one it still says Post: 381 ?
Someone is manipulating the numbers...It has to be Hammer...those Republicans never can play fair.
Never mind......I figured this one out too....Either I am brilliant or I have been working in front of the computer for too long.
I'm going with brilliant ..... Posted by StickyHairspray (Member # 14332) on :
It says 382 not to worry now .
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
...
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: How come when I make a post and it says the number of Post: 381 then when I make another one it still says Post: 381 ?
Someone is manipulating the numbers...It has to be Hammer...those Republicans never can play fair.
Never mind......I figured this one out too....Either I am brilliant or I have been working in front of the computer for too long.
I'm going with brilliant .....
It says 1517 now. Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Thank you Vader for noticing, my numbers just keep growing.
Yours says 3185 Does this mean that you are smarter than me? Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
It means I waste more time than you do.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
It's just that school and work get in the way of my posting...
If I could only think of a way to get graded and paid for my post...
good nite...must break for sleep. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
up
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
King is like the christian version of sands Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
The Tide is Turning for Opinions on Abortion in Egypt
Egyptian society has been fighting over abortion for over 10 years. Abortion is still illegal in the country, but there have been many moves to legalize abortion pregnancies that are the result of rape. So after all this fighting, why is there still no result?
In a 1998 action that was described as “revolutionary appeal” by the international women’s right watch, Egypt’s former Grand Mufti Shaikh Nasr Farid Wasel approved abortions for rape survivors before 120 days of pregnancy. In June 2004, Grand Sheikh Muhammad Sayed Tantawi of Al Azhar, approved a draft law allowing women to abort a pregnancy that is the result of rape even more than four months after conception. Mr. Mohamed Khalil Quetta, a member of the Egyptian people’s Assembly, presented a legislative amendment to give a rape victim the right for an abortion in case where the rape resulted in a pregnancy to the assembly on Dec 26, 2007. On Dec 30, 2007, Al Azhar’s Islamic Research Academy approved abortions for rape survivors. Then, in April 2008, Quetta’s move was approved by the People’s Assembly to be presented to Constitutional and Legislative Council committee—a step that is still not finalized now, five years later, because legal and religious officials split up into two teams: those who were in favor of the proposal, and those who refused it.
On November 9, 2009, a diverse group of NGOs gathered together as part of the international campaign “One Day, One Struggle”, organized by the Coalition for Sexual and Bodily Rights in Muslim Societies. Egypt’s participation was by both Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR) and New Woman Foundation, who held a press conference that day.
Activists asked the Assembly to treat the matter of abortion rights for rape survivors with much more consideration, in light of what is, according to EIPR researcher Dr. Dalia Abdel-Hamid, a double failure:
“The continued denial of these women’s rights reflects the double failure of the government, which failed first in the protection of these women from the horrible crime of rape, and then failed again to preserve them their dignity and mental and physical health through giving them the right to terminate a pregnancy resulting from the crime.”
On the other hand, Hoda Mahmoud, a women’s advocate and development specialist, has a different angle from which she is looking at this matter:
“Egyptian society continues to stigmatize rape victims. Why would they go to the police just to have them say disgusting and horrific things at them? Egyptians continue to believe they are at fault for being raped and until we can change the perspective, things will not get better, even with a law.”
Egyptian media highlights Mahmoud’s concerns. The Egyptian TV show 90 minutes has interviewed three guests from different sides to discuss this matter. The guest list included Quetta, Shaikh Gammal Kotb–who supports the draft–and Dr. Faiza Khater, head of philosophy and religion at Al-Azhar University, who wonders why everyone is being so attentive to the rape victim, rather than questioning why she got raped in the first place. After victim-blaming rape survivors, Khater hinted that rape results from how expensive life is now in Egypt, which makes it even harder for men to get married and have a legal wife!
Dr. Khater’s alarming statements are not all that uncommon. Even one of the women who works on Egypt’s Centre for Women’s Rights, Engy Ghozlan, says, “many young men lack employment and incomes – so much so that marriages are being delayed, making men sexually frustrated and giving them lots of free time to sexually harass women or consider rape.”
These statements reflect the myth that rape is about sex. Rape is about power, and Ghozlan’s statements hint at the fact that unemployed men feel powerless, but then mistakenly attribute rape to sexual frustration.
Now, after a long time of dealing with this matter as a topic for talk shows to interview celebrities to talk about, blame officials, and vaguely ask the community to prevent such a crime of rape, we can actually witness a complete change. The law has been approved by different official institutes; when the grand mufti approves such a law, it’s a step. All we need is the vote for it. I know it’s not huge, but it’s a very good start to have the support of shaikhs and government officials in dealing with issue. Before, no one even talked about this matter. Slowly, editors, TV presenters, and even TV series started to discuss it. At first, the dialogue was all about blaming the victim, even if indirectly, but now it’s slightly changing. Two of three guests on 90 Minutes were with the law: one is an MP and the other is a sheikh–normal people are now watching these words coming from these people, these men. Perhaps because of this, majority opinion on abortion may change.
In a country that does not allow elective abortion, allowing a rape victim to have a safe legal abortion is not only the victim’s right, but in fact the government owes this to her: they couldn’t protect her at first, but now they are ready to share responsibility and help her through getting over this. She no longer has to go through the life-threatening experience of illegal abortion.
When the law is passed, this is going to change the whole perspective by which Egyptians look at rape and rape victims. Even when abortion is medically allowed, it is still something big. Having the government give a rape survivor the right to do this means a lot.
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Sheikh Yussuf al Qaradawi from Islamonline.com [/QB]
Qaradawy cannot have said that .
He is one of those who demands strongly for women's right
Do you have fatwa for him about that?!
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Qaradawy cannot have said that .
He is one of those who demands strongly for women's right
By propagating female genital mutilation, obedience of the wife to the husband and wife-beating? By comparing women to cows, buffalos and she-goats? By calling unmarried women "surplus women" and saying they would be better off being a second wife than staying single? By saying that women's private parts are "ordinarily disgusting to man"? By stating that women's testimony should be half of a man's because her emotions supposedly overtake her rational mind? By suggesting it is a woman's own fault if she gets raped because she wasn't dressed or acting "decently" enough?
Wow -- what a great advocate of women's rights!
Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Qaradawy cannot have said that .
He is one of those who demands strongly for women's right
By propagating female genital mutilation, obedience of the wife to the husband and wife-beating? By comparing women to cows, buffalos and she-goats? By calling unmarried women "surplus women" and saying they would be better off being a second wife than staying single? By saying that women's private parts are "ordinarily disgusting to man"? By stating that women's testimony should be half of a man's because her emotions supposedly overtake her rational mind? By suggesting it is a woman's own fault if she gets raped because she wasn't dressed or acting "decently" enough?
Wow -- what a great advocate of women's rights!
Come on, Dalia! Don't you know BAD rights are better than NO rights at all? Rights are rights even if the women are not "rational" enough to see how these rights benefit them. The man knows best - doesn't he? Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Qaradawi cannot have said that .
He is one of those who demands strongly for women's right
By propagating female genital mutilation, obedience of the wife to the husband and wife-beating? By comparing women to cows, buffalos and she-goats? By calling unmarried women "surplus women" and saying they would be better off being a second wife than staying single? By saying that women's private parts are "ordinarily disgusting to man"? By stating that women's testimony should be half of a man's because her emotions supposedly overtake her rational mind? By suggesting it is a woman's own fault if she gets raped because she wasn't dressed or acting "decently" enough?
Wow -- what a great advocate of women's rights!
References ,please !! what makes you believe I am going to take anything you say for granted ?!
supply weblinks or books written or said by him, if you want me to believe you and give yourself credibility
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
to illustrate his opinions
-FGM: they (he and others)that it is Sunnah but we have to say what is the definition of FGM in his opinion .He sees that not every female should undergo FGM ,but some of them and he sees the Hadith of the prophet about FGM is Sunnah not an arabic tradition . He has his proof and his Mazhab .
He might be true but I disagree with him .
-I do not know where he compared women to cows ....,his daughter is a professor of Nuclear physics in the university BTW and his other daughter has a good position as well
-and Yes it is good to be a second wife rather than being a single ,I do not care about your opinion ,he has his proofs
and I agree with him ,what kind of society will we live in if every women is so selfish and cannot see that her sister cannot have a husband ?!
Back in the day of the prophets ,the Companions of Al-Madina (Al-Ansar)gave half of their wives to the companions of Mecca(Al-Mohagreen )(AlAnasar divorces them and Al-mohagreen married them ).This is how it goes in Islam ,Muslims are not selfish ,of course women can always refuse that her husband marry a second wife .
I do not care about your opinion about women ,All I care is the opinion of Islam and the Verses in Koran ,and Hadith . Women in Egypt for example.
93% of married women in Egypt refuse that their husbands marry a second wife .90% of unmarried women agree to be a send wife .
So it is natural to be married to a sec ind wife .Allah Himself gave the permission in the Quran .The prophet and most of the companions were married to more than one woman and women did not complain
This is Islamic tradition and most of the Prophets were married to more than one wife .
No harm in that.
I agree with him
-for the testimony I do not know where he said that ,I am sure he did not say that ,there is a difference between the testimony (Shahada ) and written statement(Estesh-had)in the which in the latter yes the "estesh-had of the women is half of the man " this is explicit verse in Quran
-what do you expect ,you want to walk in the street naked and no one harass you ?!
There are always sick personalities in societies they are like wolfs looking for their prey and a women in this Egypt will get harassed if she is walking in a dark street ,or .......
but yes it is your fault if you walked in the nude or dressed in a non decent manner if you get harassed ,however dressing in a decent manner does not prevent harassment or rape ,as I said they are wolves out there .
God describe Mariam and the wife of prophet Moses pbuh in the Koran as so decent and and so shy and this is what women should be like.>>>DECENT and Pious ,not wearing tight clothes and walking in an inappropriate manner .
Banat akher zamn.
Then please do not drag me to an empty discussion about his opinions ,he does not need your opinion for sure ,he is one of the best
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Originally posted by Rahala:
quote: and I agree with him ,what kind of society will we live in if every women is so selfish and cannot see that her sister cannot have a husband ?!
Since there are more men than women it is quite clear that it is you who is being selfish to your brother by not letting your wife have a second husband...
Are there more women in the world than men? Answer According to www.INED.fr The number of men and women in the world is roughly equal, though men hold a slight lead with 101 men for 100 women (in 2005). More precisely, out of 1,000 people, 503 are men (50.3%) and 497 are women (49.7%). For every 100 girls, 105 boys are born, but males have a higher risk of dying than females, both in childhood and at adult ages. So at a certain age, the numbers of men and women even out. In France this occurs at age 35 (in 2005). Beyond this age, women outnumber men and the numerical difference between the two sexes increases with age. In France, eight centenarians in ten are women (in 2005).
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: So it is natural to be married to a sec ind wife .Allah Himself gave the permission in the Quran .
004.003 YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
004.129 YUSUFALI: Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
No he did not give permission, He made it quite clear HE KNOWS you cannot deal fairly between women yet YOU MEN think you know better than ALLAH
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Why does it say this?
"...or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. "
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: -what do you expect ,you want to walk in the street naked and no one harass you ?!
There are always sick personalities in societies they are like wolfs looking for their prey and a women in this Egypt will get harassed if she is walking in a dark street ,or .......
but yes it is your fault if you walked in the nude or dressed in a non decent manner if you get harassed ,however dressing in a decent manner does not prevent harassment or rape ,as I said they are wolves out there .
I see you still have not read the whole thread. Here are some important facts I posted earlier:
RAPE MYTHS
Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of passion. The victim is irresistible to the rapist.
Fact: Rape is an act of violence, not of sexual desire. The majority of rapes are planned: the place arranged, enticement used, or the victim deliberately sought and coerced into sexual relations. It is the vulnerability of the victim that attracts the sexual predator. Victims range from infants to the elderly. Anyone, regardless of age, sex, physical appearance, marital status, ethnic, religious or socio-economic background can be raped.
Myth: Women are sexually assaulted when they are out alone at night. If women stay home they will be safe.
Fact: Studies show that the majority of sexual assaults are committed in either the victim’s home or the offender’s home.
Myth: Most rapists hide in dark alleys, waiting for a stranger to walk past.
Facts: The majority of reported rapes occur either in the victim’s home or the home of the attacker. In many cases, the victim met the offender in a public place and then was coerced into accompanying the rapist to the place of the assault. Most rape victims know their attacker at least casually. In many cases, offenders were well known to the victim and were in relationships that one would normally trust, i.e. boyfriend, family friend, close neighbor or relative.
Myth: Sexual assault is provoked by the victim. Victims ask for it by their actions, behaviors, or by the way they dress.
Fact: To say that someone wants to be raped is the same as saying that people ask to be mugged or robbed. In fact, most rapes are at least partially planned in advance and the victim is often threatened with death or bodily harm if he or she resists. Sexual assault is not a spontaneous crime of sexual passion. It is a violent attack on an individual using sex as a weapon. Sex is used to defile, degrade and destroy a victim’s will and control over his or her own body. For the victim, it is a humiliating, near death situation. No person would ask for or deserve such an attack.
Myth: Only “bad girls” get sexually assaulted.
Fact: Sexual assault occurs in all segments of our society. Most rapists choose their targets without regard to physical appearance or lifestyle. Victims are of every type, race, and socio-economic class, young and old alike.
Myth: Rapists are crazy, deranged, abnormal perverts. They are lonely men without female partnership.
Fact: Rape is not a crime of spontaneous passion. Studies show that 60 to 70% of all sexual assaults are planned. Most rapists are married and having consensual sexual relations while assaulting other women. Rapists themselves do not describe their motivation in terms of sexual gratification, but in terms of hatred and conquest. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and degradation on a victim. Indeed, rapists have said that rape is “lousy sex.” Sexual offenders come from all educational, occupational, racial and cultural backgrounds. They tend to test differently from the normal, well-adjusted male only in having a greater tendency to express violence and rage.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No he did not give permission, He made it quite clear HE KNOWS you cannot deal fairly between women yet YOU MEN think you know better than ALLAH
The first verse you posted gives the permission for polygamy ,it means a man must be fair for his wives.
the second verse talks about the men will never be able to be just between his wifeBecause his heart cannot a man has only one heart and he cannot divide it equally but what he can make is to be just at them apparently :give his wifes the same time :spending on them equally :blah balh balh:love them equally ,but deep in his heart he cannot love them equally ,there must be a difference and this s the meaning of the second verse .
Your understanding is not correct ,since most of the companions were married to more than one woman and the prophet himself was married to more than one and he loved his wife Aisha the most and all his wives knew that .The prophet did not commanded that his companions should restrict themselves to one woman ;Abo Baker his best friends was married to more than one;Omar the same case .
Allah gives the permission on condition man can be fair and equal to them apparently but in the 4:129 He tells us that we will never be equal in our hearts and if this would be a stone in the way to equality between one's wives then "so do not incline too much to one of them"
King Fahd 4:129
"You will never be able to do perfect justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire, so do not incline too much to one of them (by giving her more of your time and provision) so as to leave the other hanging (i.e. neither divorced nor married). And if you do justice, and do all that is right and fear Allah by keeping away from all that is wrong, then Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful"
The verse it self says in the part I bold when Allah is addressing married men -it says "them " which is goes back to the wives of them man which is an implicit pointer to the permission given before
I do not have time for any kind of mental rambling .
The prophet himself asked God to help him be fair he said -I do not remember the exact text of Hadith-but the meaning is "I can not control my heart so Allah don't call me to account for what is in my heart but account for what I do "
So a question to you
You say the prophet was wrong when he married more than one wife?!
Was he wrong when he did not tell the companions to leave their wives ?!
simple questions yes or no
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Since there are more men than women
It is not about men more than women !
Not all men can marry ,not all men can work ,not all of them can think ,not all them are not impotent .
A woman has the right to choose her husband and I am sure that an ordinary and natural woman would love to have kids (Kids and many are the only entertainment in this world -from Quran )an ordinary woman would like to have a husband who can spend on her and her needs ...........
it is not about the number ,I say Islam is not an enemy for the women >>>>> women are the enemy of the women
and a woman can not be a wife for 2 men at the same time ,
so it is about the number of men but rather about the number valid ,healthy ,productive ,able to marry
There is an obvious deterioration in the manners of human beings.Islam is the religion of alfetra which means roughly "Human Instinct" the good instinct in Islam is that a man would marry one and only one woman but the some men can love more than one woman but women Can not love except one man
huge difference
and it is the mother of Mary(Mariam ) who said
2:63
"And the male is not like the female,"
it is not me who said that ,the one who said that is the mother of the greatest woman in history
males are not like females
Footnote
3:14
"Beautified for men is the love of things they covet; women, children, much of gold and silver (wealth), branded beautiful horses, cattle and well-tilled land. This is the pleasure of the present world's life; but Allah has the excellent return (Paradise with flowing rivers) with Him."
the verse goes in the other way too ,women loves men and any ordinary woman would love a man and would love to Have kids
Allah tells me that
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: -what do you expect ,you want to walk in the street naked and no one harass you ?!
There are always sick personalities in societies they are like wolfs looking for their prey and a women in this Egypt will get harassed if she is walking in a dark street ,or .......
but yes it is your fault if you walked in the nude or dressed in a non decent manner if you get harassed ,however dressing in a decent manner does not prevent harassment or rape ,as I said they are wolves out there .
I see you still have not read the whole thread. Here are some important facts I posted earlier:
RAPE MYTHS
Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of passion. The victim is irresistible to the rapist.
Fact: Rape is an act of violence, not of sexual desire. The majority of rapes are planned: the place arranged, enticement used, or the victim deliberately sought and coerced into sexual relations. It is the vulnerability of the victim that attracts the sexual predator. Victims range from infants to the elderly. Anyone, regardless of age, sex, physical appearance, marital status, ethnic, religious or socio-economic background can be raped.
Myth: Women are sexually assaulted when they are out alone at night. If women stay home they will be safe.
Fact: Studies show that the majority of sexual assaults are committed in either the victim’s home or the offender’s home.
Myth: Most rapists hide in dark alleys, waiting for a stranger to walk past.
Facts: The majority of reported rapes occur either in the victim’s home or the home of the attacker. In many cases, the victim met the offender in a public place and then was coerced into accompanying the rapist to the place of the assault. Most rape victims know their attacker at least casually. In many cases, offenders were well known to the victim and were in relationships that one would normally trust, i.e. boyfriend, family friend, close neighbor or relative.
Myth: Sexual assault is provoked by the victim. Victims ask for it by their actions, behaviors, or by the way they dress.
Fact: To say that someone wants to be raped is the same as saying that people ask to be mugged or robbed. In fact, most rapes are at least partially planned in advance and the victim is often threatened with death or bodily harm if he or she resists. Sexual assault is not a spontaneous crime of sexual passion. It is a violent attack on an individual using sex as a weapon. Sex is used to defile, degrade and destroy a victim’s will and control over his or her own body. For the victim, it is a humiliating, near death situation. No person would ask for or deserve such an attack.
Myth: Only “bad girls” get sexually assaulted.
Fact: Sexual assault occurs in all segments of our society. Most rapists choose their targets without regard to physical appearance or lifestyle. Victims are of every type, race, and socio-economic class, young and old alike.
Myth: Rapists are crazy, deranged, abnormal perverts. They are lonely men without female partnership.
Fact: Rape is not a crime of spontaneous passion. Studies show that 60 to 70% of all sexual assaults are planned. Most rapists are married and having consensual sexual relations while assaulting other women. Rapists themselves do not describe their motivation in terms of sexual gratification, but in terms of hatred and conquest. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and degradation on a victim. Indeed, rapists have said that rape is “lousy sex.” Sexual offenders come from all educational, occupational, racial and cultural backgrounds. They tend to test differently from the normal, well-adjusted male only in having a greater tendency to express violence and rage.
I know that I was replying to the point dalia raised about Qradawi (about women in the streets behaving wrong)of course the phenomena in the west is more complex than in the Middle east for sure
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: and a woman can not be a wife for 2 men at the same time
Says who? There are a lot of women in this world who are in a relationship with two men at the same time. There are also societies in which polyandry has been or is still being practiced. See this thread>
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: References ,please !! what makes you believe I am going to take anything you say for granted ?!
Because I never state anything that I can't back up.
I will give you the references, but not today because I just got back from a four-hour seminar and am tired. But for a start you could read "The Lawful and the Prohibited", or check out the fatawa on his website.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: -FGM: they (he and others)that it is Sunnah but we have to say what is the definition of FGM in his opinion .He sees that not every female should undergo FGM ,but some of them and he sees the Hadith of the prophet about FGM is Sunnah not an arabic tradition . He has his proof and his Mazhab .
His "proof" is a weak hadith that he interprets in a very illogical manner. The hadith speaks of "not going to extremes" when cutting because "that is better for the woman's health". Qaradawi interprets it to mean that female circumcision itself is better for the women's health. That is highly illogical from a linguistic viewpoint, and utter nonsense from a medical viewpoint.
Plus, the fact that he personally feels female circumcision is a good thing speaks volumes about him and his attitude towards women.
However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.
Actually, Muslim countries differ over the issue of female circumcision; some countries sanction it whereas others do not. Anyhow, it is not obligatory, whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world. But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin for it is mainly meant to dignify women as held by scholars.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Yes it is good to be a second wife rather than being a single ,I do not care about your opinion ,he has his proofs
He has no proof at all, just his personal opinion, which is based on him being an old man who grew up in a very patriarchalic society where a woman is not worth much if she doesn't have a husband.
And it is not up to you or Mr. Qaradawi to decide what is better for women. We can very well decide that for ourselves. It is each woman's personal decision whether she prefers to stay single or not, marry or not, become a second wife or not.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: 93% of married women in Egypt refuse that their husbands marry a second wife .90% of unmarried women agree to be a send wife .
Has there been a national inquiry or where do you take this number from? I don't believe this for a second. Where is your proof?
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: -for the testimony I do not know where he said that ,I am sure he did not say that
I am absolutely sure he said that women are guided by their emotions rather than their mind. I read that repeatedly in regards to various issues. For example, he gives this as a reason why a man should have more rights to initiate divorce. And he also claims this as the reason why women should be obedient to men and men should have the right to "discipline", i.e. beat them.
I am not entirely sure if he also said it in regards to women's testimony though, I'll check up on that when I have time.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: he does not need your opinion for sure ,he is one of the best
Well, that is your opinion which you are entitled to. I don't like him because he says many awful things about women. And he also makes a huge difference in regards to sexuality between men and women, which is wrong and un-Islamic. And I am certainly not the only one who feels that way, I know countless Muslims who can't stand him and feel exactly the same way. And I know a lot of people, for example, who read "The Lawful and the Prohibited" and threw it out in disgust after having read it.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I was replying to the point dalia raised about Qradawi (about women in the streets behaving wrong)of course the phenomena in the west is more complex than in the Middle east for sure
Huh? Can you explain what you mean? Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Be merciful to Qaradawi
Yusuf al-Qaradawi shows no clemency to Muslims who deviate from his dogma, but we should not stoop to his inhumanity
The government's decision to ban Muslim extremist cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi from entering Britain is illiberal, unwarranted and unmerciful.
Don't get me wrong. There's no shred of doubt in my mind that Qaradawi is antisemitic, homophobic and sexist, and that he justifies terrorist attacks on innocent civilians. He is the spiritual head of the reactionary Muslim Brotherhood, and his politics are well to the right of the odious British National Party (BNP).
But Qaradawi wants to come to Britain for medical treatment, not to promote his prejudiced preaching. In these circumstances, banning him is unjustified and heartless. We should show Qaradawi the mercy that he seeks to deny to fellow Muslims who transgress his dogmatic, illiberal interpretation of Islam.
The government is wrong to stoop to Qaradawi's level of inhumanity. We should let him come to Britain for medical treatment, and thereby show him and the world that our (albeit imperfect) liberal, humanitarian values are better than his bigotry and his glorification of religious-inspired violence.
Qaradawi is, of course, a complete hypocrite. He wants medical treatment in a country whose liberal values he despises. He doesn't believe in universal human rights. He thinks our laws on the rights of women and gay people are an abomination. Despite this, he is quite happy to use the medical services of non-believers to save his own life. Two-faced or what?
Let's hope his surgeon is a gay Israeli Jew - and that he performs a successful operation, so that Qaradawi is forced to acknowledge that he owes his life to a Jewish sodomite.
Qaradawi is also a hypocrite because he is seeking medical treatment, when there are certain circumstances in which he would apparently deny treatment to people who do not share his hardline Islamism. He believes that such people should be allowed to die. Qaradawi is on record as saying that Muslims should not donate organs to people who adopt other faiths or become atheists. An apostate should not be given an organ donation because he has transgressed Islam and "deserves killing", Qaradawi wrote in a fatwa issued on the website, Islamonline, of which he is the chief scholar, on 24 June 2002.
Such extreme, inhuman views are not untypical of Qaradawi. He also advocates:
• Killing Muslims who have turned away from Islam (apostates) • The execution of gay people in Islamic societies • Suicide bombing of innocent Israeli civilians • Female genital mutilation (female "circumcision") • Compelling women to wear the hijab, even if they don't want to • Violence against disobedient wives in certain circumstances • Blaming rape victims who dress immodestly • Flogging women who have sex outside marriage
References to his expression of these far right views can be found in this dossier compiled by the multi-ethnic, multi-faith London Community Coalition and in this dossier produced by OutRage! and the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association. Both these documents refute the apologia and distortions of the truth by those who defend and support Qaradawi.
This evidence of Qaradawi's authoritarian political and religious views comes from his own books, like The Lawful and Prohibited in Islam, and from quotes in his name on the website that he heads, Islamonline. All are in English, in his own words, so there can be no dispute about their accuracy.
Despite his fundamentalist, anti-humanitarian views, Qaradawi is defended by the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, the Socialist Workers Party, Respect, the Muslim Association of Britain and, of course, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB).
Because I have criticised Qaradawi, some of these people denounce me: "Tatchell is a racist ... Tatchell is an Islamophobe," they say. These insults are, of course, without any factual basis. I never condemned Qaradawi because of his race and I have never condemned Islam or Muslims in general - only extremists like Qaradawi.
These apologists are talking nonsense when they claim that Qaradawi is a moderate. Sure, compared to the Taliban and al-Qaida he is less extreme, but compared to most Muslims in Britain he is a fundamentalist and a preacher of intolerance.
It is an insult to British Muslims to suggest that Qaradawi represents their views. Such drivel from sections of the far left and their Islamist allies plays straight into the hands of the BNP. It gives Nick Griffin the ammo he needs to fuel his scare-mongering and anti-Muslim diatribes. It gives him an excuse to tar all Muslims with the extremist tag.
Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB's assistant secretary-general, fallen into a similar trap. His reaction to Qaradawi's exclusion from the country, as expressed here on Comment is Free, has conveniently ignored Qaradawi's anti-humanitarian agenda. Such spin only serves to bring the MCB into disrepute.
If you doubt me when I say that Qaradawi is a right-wing extremist, remember this. In October 2004, a petition signed by 2,500 of the world's leading Muslim intellectuals from 23 countries was delivered to the United Nations. It condemned Islamic theologians who promote fundamentalism, intolerance and violence, including Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Listing him as one of the "sheikhs of death", the petition signatories accused him of "providing a religious cover for terrorism".
I never supported Qaradawi being banned from coming to Britain when Ken Livingstone hosted him at City Hall in 2004. But I did object to him being feted and given a platform in the name of the people of London.
The only circumstances where it is legitimate to exclude people from the country is where they explicitly incite violence. Qaradawi comes close to doing this but not quite. The best way to respond to his reactionary, oppressive views is by protesting against them and by exposing and challenging them in rational debate.
"And if he has divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she has married another husband. Then, if the other husband divorces her, it is no sin on both of them that they reunite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. These are the limits of Allah, which He makes plain for the people who have knowledge."
Now ,if a woman can have 2 husbands at a time why the 2nd husband have to divorce her so that she would be able to return to her first husband?!
The verse is obvious she has has to divorce the 2nd husband to be able to return to the first husband
You should stop using pointless discussions
4:3
"And if he has divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she has married another husband. Then, if the other husband divorces her, it is no sin on both of them that they reunite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. These are the limits of Allah, which He makes plain for the people who have knowledge."
The permission is only for men not women read the verse .When Allah wants to make a legislation for women He says "women " if He wants to say that women can have more than one husband He would have said it like this verse
49:11 "Let not a group scoff at another group of men , it may be that the latter are better than the former. Nor let (some) women scoff at other women"
if women have the same right then the verse 4:3 would have given women the same Right explicitly .
and Wait ,weren't you the one who said that Quran contains every example ?!
Now,it s not in the Quran ,so women have no right .
Allah when he describes women ,he says they are shy ,....and other good descriptions .
and Ayisha ,wife of the prophet ,said in Hadith that Islam destroyed all these kind of marriages that were in Al-Jahlia
You should be ashamed of yourself for this question
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Says who?
Quran says that
Ahmad, if you were referring to legal and religious issues, you should have said "Muslim women are not allowed to have more than one husband". But you wrote:
a woman can not be a wife for 2 men at the same time
So your statement was about women in general, making it sound as if it is impossible for a woman to be with two men at the same time. A look at reality shows us that this is not true.
quote:Allah when he describes women ,he says they are shy
Is this what Allah says or how you want women to be? Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: you should have said "Muslim women are not allowed to have more than one husband
Yes mI should have said that .However ,I think I know what the opinions of a lot people about swingers and other perverted behavior .It is disguisting ,even animals do not do that .As far as I know I do not know female Animals who could go with 2 males at the same time !
if you know any animals then please enlighten me.
quote: Is this what Allah says or how you want women to be?
Read what Allah says about Marriam and the wife of the prophet Moses !! Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: His "proof" is a weak Hadith that he interprets in a very illogical manner
JUST because it is weak does not mean we leave it ,the reasoning with Hadith is different .Besides,some Hadith scientists says that this Hadith is Hasan .After All,it did happen at the days of the prophet and that was their traditions
He has his proof ,the most strongest of them is the Hadith that talks about "Al-khetanayn" )الْخِتَانَانِ(which is Hadith sahih in Al-bukhary
Calling the private parts of the woman as الْخِتَانَانِ means it is circumcised .
There are other proofs -they are proofs but Al-Azhar thinks of them as traditions of the Arabs not orders .I am agianst this opinion
quote: Plus, the fact that he personally feels female circumcision is a good thing speaks volumes about him and his attitude towards women
Yes ,there is nothing in him thinking that Al-Khefad is Makrama.The word FGM is not the same as Khefadخفاض
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: However ,I think I know what the opinions of a lot people about swingers and other perverted behavior .It is disguisting ,even animals do not do that
So a man with two women is okay, but a woman with two men is digusting and perverted? Interesting. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Yes ,there is nothing in him thinking that Al-Khefad is Makrama.The word FGM is not the same as Khefadخفاض
Please do not try to turn this into another "you need to learn Arabic" debate. We discussed those terms before and I am familiar with them.
Cutting off part of a woman's clitoris IS mutilation, no matter how you chose to call it.
Mr. Al Qaradawi says that it is okay to mutilate girls, i.e. to cut off a part of their clitoris and thus inflict physical and psychological damage on them. That is disgusting, anti-Islamic and highly misogynistic.
Men's libido, according to Qaradawi, is something natural, healthy and needs to be catered to be any means. But in women it should be restricted, damaged and controlled. That's just plain sick.
But thank you for finally admitting that you support FGM, that says a lot. Does your daddy make money mutilating poor girls who have no say in the matter?
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote: And it is not up to you or Mr. Qaradawi to decide what is better for women. We can very well decide that for ourselves. It is each woman's personal decision whether she prefers to stay single or not, marry or not, become a second wife or not.
No ,it is not up to you .Marriage in Islam is a must and I posted the verse before in the above article about the state of men loving women and women loving men .The ordinary and Natural women would choose to marry and have kids .
The verse does not talk about Muslims men but about men in general
The verse is up there 4 or 5 posts before this one
quote: Has there been a national inquiry or where do you take this number from? I don't believe this for a second. Where is your proof?
I read it on one of Sharawwy books and I have the video link here it is and yes it is natural inquiry in the past times
I don't remember which episode it was ,but I can upload it to you if you want .
quote: am absolutely sure he said that women are guided by their emotions rather than their mind
part if this is true.
in the Quran God says"the male is not like the female "
quote: I don't like him because he says many awful things about women
Quran itself says "the male is not like the female" Quran does not restrict the verse to a certain ability but yes women are not like men AT ALL. each kind is created for a special mission in this world and we must not transgress the limits of Allah .
quote: And he also makes a huge difference in regards to sexuality between men and women
This is true ,there is a difference between men and women and I do not know what do you mean by the word HUGE!!
quote: I know countless Muslims
Apart from the fact we cannot check the correctness of this sentence ,you say that Muslims blah blah blah but in fact most of those who you call muslims are not Muslims:those who does not believe in the Sunnah are not Muslims :this is not me but the 4 Major Emam and All professors of Islam and Islamic philosophy says that and I will prove it shortly after i finish my exams .Not every one who said Al-shehada is Muslim-he is a monotheist not a Muslim
quote: Huh? Can you explain what you mean?
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: However ,I think I know what the opinions of a lot people about swingers and other perverted behavior .It is disguisting ,even animals do not do that
So a man with two women is okay, but a woman with two men is digusting and perverted? Interesting.
I did not say a man with 2 women is ok .
Every woman must have her separate life .Allah says it is Halal so ot is distgusting
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Yes ,there is nothing in him thinking that Al-Khefad is Makrama.The word FGM is not the same as Khefadخفاض
Please do not try to turn this into another "you need to learn Arabic" debate. We discussed those terms before and I am familiar with them.
Cutting off part of a woman's clitoris IS mutilation, no matter how you chose to call it.
Mr. Al Qaradawi says that it is okay to mutilate girls, i.e. to cut off a part of their clitoris and thus inflict physical and psychological damage on them. That is disgusting, anti-Islamic and highly misogynistic.
Men's libido, according to Qaradawi, is something natural, healthy and needs to be catered to be any means. But in women it should be restricted, damaged and controlled. That's just plain sick.
But thank you for finally admitting that you support FGM, that says a lot. Does your daddy make money mutilating poor girls who have no say in the matter?
I did not say I support FGM ,I said I disagree with him.This is your tyical behaviour when you have nothing to say you transfer the discussion into nonsensical talk.
You did not reply to the hadith that says Al-khetanayn ?! Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I did not say a man with 2 women is ok .
Yes, you did>
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
So it is natural to be married to a sec ind wife .Allah Himself gave the permission in the Quran .The prophet and most of the companions were married to more than one woman and women did not complain
This is Islamic tradition and most of the Prophets were married to more than one wife .
No harm in that.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote: I don't like him because he says many awful things about women
Quran itself says "the male is not like the female" Quran does not restrict the verse to a certain ability but yes women are not like men AT ALL.
Of course women are not like men, duh! But there is a huge difference between saying that the genders are different and saying that one should have control over the other because one is better, stronger, more rational etc. pp.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote: Huh? Can you explain what you mean?
I wanted to know what you mean by women "behaving wrong in the street". And why is this a phenomenon that is "more complex in the West than in the Middle East"?
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote: And he also makes a huge difference in regards to sexuality between men and women
This is true ,there is a difference between men and women and I do not know what do you mean by the word HUGE!!
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: You did not reply to the hadith that says Al-khetanayn ?!
IF the prophet really said what he supposedly said according to that hadith, all it shows is that the circumcising females was a custom in pre-Islamic Arabia and that the prophet tried to limit the harm done to women through this.
I posted a very detailed analysis of all the ahadeeth used to justify FGM which clearly explains why none of them can and should be used to support such a practice. >
And now I'm off to the gym. Have a good afternoon everyone. Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Yes, you did>
There is huge difference between what I said "a man married to 2 wives" and "a man with 2 women " the latter gives the impression that he dates them at the same table and sleeps with them on the same bed.
quote: But there is a huge difference between saying that the genders are different and saying that one should have control over the other because one is better, stronger, more rational etc. pp.
I did not say men should control women ,
and Qaradawi did not say that men should control women ,It is Al-Welaya :something you obviously did not notice .
quote: I wanted to know what you mean by women "behaving wrong in the street
walking naked for example ,wearing inapprperiate clothes ........
I said before that women and men should behave in a decent and approperiate manner
33:32
"0 wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech"
the verse is for all women not only the wives of the prophet .
quote: And why is this a phenomenon that is "more complex in the West than in the Middle East"?
people in the middle east think different than those in the west ,Simple answer .
In the west you have famous serial rapists ,serial killers ....in Egypt none of these exist
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: and that the prophet tried to limit the harm done to women through this.
The hadith I gave is not included in your analysis and the prophet DID not try to stop this act .All we know from Sirah ia that the happit continued in the Islamic era .
The hadith is Sahih and in Al-Bukhary and I gave you its number
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: and Qaradawi did not say that men should control women
He says the wife has to obey the husband at all times. He says a husband should force his wife to wear a veil. He says a woman should never refuse sex with her husband ... and so on. All this IS control, no matter which name you chose to give it.
" ... a wife is obliged to obey her husband in everything except disobeying Allah. ... " (Qaradawi)
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: walking naked for example ,wearing inapprperiate clothes ........
I said before that women and men should behave in a decent and approperiate manner
Ahmad, you have never been to any Western country. Where in the world do you get the idea from that people walk in the street naked? This is ridiculous.
As for inappropriate clothes ... the way many girls and women dress in Cairo would be considered VERY provocative and inappropriate in Europe. Believe me, you would not be allowed in any serious workplace in Europe or the States with the kind of clothes, shoes and makeup many Egyptian women wear. And most parents would not let their teenage daughters go to school with heavy makeup, corsage- or negligee-style tops, porno shoes and other things I used to see daily on the Cairo Metro.
As for "decent and appropriate" behaviour ... sexual harassment is a huge problem in most Islamic countries. It is not a problem at all in my homecountry, for example, and in most parts of Europe. THAT is indecent behaviour. So I am really wondering how you come to the conclusion that "indecent behaviour" is a problem that exists in the West, but not in the Middle East.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I read it on one of Sharawwy books and I have the video link here it is and yes it is natural inquiry in the past times
I don't remember which episode it was ,but I can upload it to you if you want .
I don't have the time or the nerve to go through this site, and I don't like videos in general ... they are a waste of time.
If there has been an official study which proves that 90% of the unmarried Egyptian women would rather become a second wife than stay unmarried, it must be available in writing somewhere, and I'd ask you to please post it.
As I said, I don't believe this for a second. I don't know a single Egyptian woman who would agree to become a second wife. Also, the high divorce rate and the increasing number of women filing for divorce speaks a different language -- it proves that there are many, many women who even prefer being divorced / unmarried to being a first wife.
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
Dalia if you call listening or watching Elsharawy is waste of time ,,,then you emphasis it now that you are a truly ignorant thing ,,, before i thought of you only as a shallow minded bad manners thing ,
you know what you are ? you are such a parrot for Doglilly and her other log in names . and i am sure many of your copy/paste posts ,,you do not read them because you do not care to know ,, it is just your ignorance what moves you and your plan of making everything Egyptian or islamic smell bad ,,
it is so serious now , when it comes to such Imams ,,,you just need to shut up and even do not listen because Such Imams are very advanced for your little brain and to high for your corrupted soul
Paste and copy the witch is Doglilly Ayisha is a nother name of lilly she puts the poison in sweet jelly to improve Egypt is good in dancing with belly undressed her till she looks naked and silly Egypt screams it is so cold Doglilly Dog shout at her wait till i get my dirty money Egypt said am i that bad, really ?
then Dog cries i love Egypt but need money !
if you are fooling Ahmed that he was not abroad ,,,i have lived more than 4 years in many different europian countries , stop your bullshit
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: Dalia if you call listening or watching Elsharawy is waste of time ,,,then you emphasis it now that you are a truly ignorant thing ,,,
You need to learn to read properly, my dear. I was speaking about internet videos in general. I consider them a waste of time because I prefer READING my information. That's much faster and more effective.
And, fyi ... I'm a woman, not a "thing".
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: you know what you are ? you are such a parrot for Doglilly and her other log in names . and i am sure many of your copy/paste posts ,,you do not read them because you do not care to know ,, it is just your ignorance what moves you and your plan of making everything Egyptian or islamic smell bad ,,
it is so serious now , when it comes to such Imams ,,,you just need to shut up and even do not listen because Such Imams are very advanced for your little brain and to high for your corrupted soul
I read everything I post. You, on the other hand, comment without reading as we just saw in the thread about the mosque at ground zero.
You can bully me as much as you wish, I will not shut up and I will keep criticizing Qaradawi and his likes whenever I wish. It's them who make Islam look bad and turn a beautiful religion into something ugly and hateful, only you are not capable of seeing it.
Now quit stalking people, take a deep breath and go take your dog for a walk.
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
so give me a name of some Imams that make Islam look Good in your shallow empty mind ?
by the way Dr.Qaradwi and great imam sharway ,,both under what we call wasatia ,,,but your target is just to attack and you have no idea about what you are talking about very hard to have a conversation with an ignorant ,,and this what prophet Muhammed (pbuh) advise us not get in a conversation with them ,
Yes my beloved prophet ,,how great and wise you are ?
peace be upon you and upon all great imams
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
oh , for me you are a thing because i can not see any different between you and a thing ...even a thing is better because he does not have a mouth to show it's ignorance Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
may be you will ask why i called a thing HE while it should be IT it is just because when we compare a thing with it i mean you , then the thing should be He :::: Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: very hard to have a conversation with an ignorant ,,
true, thanks for providing the living proof many times in the past couple of days Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: If there has been an official study which proves that 90% of the unmarried Egyptian women would rather become a second wife than stay unmarried, it must be available in writing somewhere, and I'd ask you to please post it
There is ,it is so old -might be 30 years before-it is in one of his books I do not remember that book,you just need to search the Arabic sources.
The whole second wife issue is taking more than it should ,Do you know how many men are out there married to more than one wife at the same time ?
Do you the percentage ?!
in Egypt it is from 3-5% so they are minority and those will always find some women who want to be second wife .
and what do you prefer to be a girlfriend or a second wife?!
A girlfriend that has no right and her lover can abandon her at any moment or a second wife who has all rights?!
If you prefer to be a girl friend then hate to tell you you are humiliating yourself.
but after all,not everything is on the INTERNET .
BTW,this is a clever excuse to get away from seeing the video
quote: t proves that there are many, many women who even prefer being divorced / unmarried to being a first wife.
It does not prove that .It proves that people are not choosing their soul mate in the right way .
If everyone of us ,men , chose right according to the Hadith of the prophet ".......marry the woman who has the best manners/religion .." we would have become a good society but we sadly do not look at the religion but alot of men look at the face ,tits and the crotch
It only proves that people are far away from the religion which is reality .
quote: All this IS control, no matter which name you chose to give it.
you are exercising the ugliest mental terrorism I have ever seen in my life !
You cannot see that he might be right ,all you see is that your opinion is the right and no-one is right .Personally I know some women who LOVE the veil and adore it .And yes ,I said before a ship with 2 leaders will sink ,so only one opinion will be undertook ,seems you have to leave planet Neptune and come back to mother earth to see the real human life.
quote: THAT is indecent behaviour
This society have a lot of problems because people still do not know their religion well .not because people are bad .No,people are good but they need someone who guides them ,what do you expect from a society which 20% of its members cannot read or write?!
-hint:this is the Egyptian scoot .
You still do not get the fact that Islam is the religion of al-Fitra :the true instinct,the instinct that have been touched by atheism .
When Islam says a man can have more than one wife ,this is instinct;When Islam says a woman can only have one husband ,then this is true instinct .
"See you not how Allah sets forth a parable? A goodly word as a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the sky (i.e. very high)."
these are muslims,they are like goodly trees only needs to be irrigated and cared after .
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: very hard to have a conversation with an ignorant ,,
true, thanks for providing the living proof many times in the past couple of days
wow wow wow ,there are questions waiting for you up there why don't answer them ?!
Anyone who dares to ignore or even forget your holy questions ,you go around the forum and sing "he did not answer my questions,you do not answer my questions ,you can't answer my questions" but now you igonre mine?!
I think motherEgypt is partially saying the truth when she called you ignorant
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
Rahala
i am not she , i am he and my name is Ahmed
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: Rahala
i am not she , i am he and my name is Ahmed
No let me clarify for Ahmed here:
MotherEgypt is a she/he born with tits, a vagina and a dick - he's a HERMAPHRODITE. To make it easier to understand for you look here:
MotherEgypt is infact gay but lately feels very motherly.
I know I know Rahala this is a lot for you to take in at once!! You'll get over your initial shock and disgust in time!!!!!!
Now back to the main topic...
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: Rahala
i am not she , i am he and my name is Ahmed
if you ain't she why would you call yourself motheregypt? Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
Rahala
when i register here long ago ,this time i used to live in Russia ,Russian call it Mother Russia ,, so i guess i get effected by the name i just like it and did not think of it and took the name Mother Egypt Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
mashy ya wa7sh ,bas 7'ali balak men zozo
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
Zozoooo,,,,zozo ,,,meen zozo ,,,zozo beta3 hussein fahmy walla zozo beta3 aih ,,
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: There is ,it is so old -might be 30 years before-it is in one of his books I do not remember that book,you just need to search the Arabic sources.
You are referring to a 30 year old study in order to prove something that, according to you, is the case nowadays?!?
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: and what do you prefer to be a girlfriend or a second wife?!
A girlfriend that has no right and her lover can abandon her at any moment or a second wife who has all rights?!
If you prefer to be a girl friend then hate to tell you you are humiliating yourself.
Nicely parroted. I've read this countless times in every book, pamphlet and website trying to propagate the supposed benefits of polygamy.
Personally, I can imagine nothing more humiliating than being married to a man who sleeps with another woman whom he calls his second wife. That's just disgusting.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: You cannot see that he might be right ,all you see is that your opinion is the right and no-one is right .Personally I know some women who LOVE the veil and adore it
I also know women who love the veil, but that's beside the point.
The point is that Qaradawi says a man should FORCE his wife to wear a veil, even if she does not want to.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: And yes ,I said before a ship with 2 leaders will sink ,so only one opinion will be undertook ,seems you have to leave planet Neptune and come back to mother earth to see the real human life.
I am looking at human life, and from what I have observed the most successful marriages are the ones where both partners respect each other and make important decisions togehter -- not the ones where one person is in control.
A relationship is not a ship, this much overused metaphor is silly and can not be applied to a marriage.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: When Islam says a man can have more than one wife ,this is instinct;When Islam says a woman can only have one husband ,then this is true instinct .
The permission to marry more than one was a solution for taking care of orphans at a particular time and situation, it has nothing whatsoever to do with instinct. It is not a solution for men who can't control their libido or whose wifes have particularly long menstrual periods, as Mr. Qaradawi claims.
But the issue of polygamy has been discussed over and over again on here, I really have no interest in getting into it again. If you think you have anything of value to add that has not been said yet, I suggest you post it in the relevant threads.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: This society have a lot of problems because people still do not know their religion well .not because people are bad .No,people are good but they need someone who guides them ,what do you expect from a society which 20% of its members cannot read or write?!
That is besides the point again.
You said that indecent public behaviour is a complex problem in "the West" but not in the Middle East.
I just pointed out that in my experience it is exactly the other way around.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
careful Dalia, you will get dizzy Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Since there are more men than women
It is not about men more than women !
Not all men can marry ,not all men can work ,not all of them can think ,not all them are not impotent .
A woman has the right to choose her husband and I am sure that an ordinary and natural woman would love to have kids (Kids and many are the only entertainment in this world -from Quran )an ordinary woman would like to have a husband who can spend on her and her needs ...........
it is not about the number ,I say Islam is not an enemy for the women >>>>> women are the enemy of the women
and a woman can not be a wife for 2 men at the same time ,
so it is about the number of men but rather about the number valid ,healthy ,productive ,able to marry
There is an obvious deterioration in the manners of human beings.Islam is the religion of alfetra which means roughly "Human Instinct" the good instinct in Islam is that a man would marry one and only one woman but the some men can love more than one woman but women Can not love except one man
males are not like females
"It is not about men more than women ! Not all men can marry ,not all men can work ,not all of them can think ,not all them are not impotent."
Very good point Rahala. So you are saying that not all men have the right to have a wife. Then some men have the right to have four wives.
But if not every man has the right to have a wife then why does every woman have the right to have a husband?
If you think logically about this subject, it makes more sense for the woman to have more than one husband because a woman does not have to preform sexually like a man does, and the man makes more money so the more males the better the quality of life for the family. If the man is the one expected to provide for the family and there is just one husband and and injury or something happens to him the family sinks into poverty. If there are two or more husbands the provisions continue and the other husbands can provide for the family while the injured one recovers.
Also, I disagree that a man can love more than one woman. A man can f*** more than one woman but nature shows that their capacity for real love is not as great as woman. A woman loves many, children, parents, husband, friends... IMHO
I think that if a man takes a second wife it is because he is not happy with the first wife so one would assume that his love has faded.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
It is a fact that, to be absolved from guilt, the raped woman must have shown some sort of good conduct, in the sense that what befell her must be something beyond her control. This is where Islam excels. ...
So, for a rape victim to be absolved from guilt, she must not be the one that opens her house for robbery and her dignity for deflowering. If, after trying her best to resist the attack, she gets overcome by the assailants, she is totally absolved from punishment.
Muslim scholars are unanimous on this. They maintain that any woman, who, despite doing her utmost to resist these thugs and their ilk, is raped, is not guilty of any sin. This is since the situation is beyond her control, and anyone who is forced to do something is not guilty of sin.
la2 da ana bas kont 3awez a3raf enta betefham 3arabi walla la2
keda enta 3adeet elemte7an ya shater Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: la2 da ana bas kont 3awez a3raf enta betefham 3arabi walla la2
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: careful Dalia, you will get dizzy
Of course and you can stay away from answering the questions
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: You are referring to a 30 year old study in order to prove something that, according to you, is the case nowadays?!?
Did not you read the word I said "might be "??
Just to show you how twisted you are ,weren't you the one who posted the FGM video which you claimed that the man in the conversation was supporting FGM?
So ,now we can't use vids in the debate!!
Well,let's agree to your opinion and we say that the stat is wrong .I said before that only 3-5% of people get a second wife ,then at least 3-5% of women agree to be a second wife .This time the stat is on the INTERNET ,it is in the Egyptian population study
quote: Nicely parroted. I've read this countless times in every book, pamphlet and website trying to propagate the supposed benefits of polygamy.
Personally, I can imagine nothing more humiliating than being married to a man who sleeps with another woman whom he calls his second wife. That's just disgusting.
This is a good way to escape answering the question .
you still did not answer the question .
I know it hurts ,but you have to admit ,some women however small percentage they are -do agree to be a second or a third wife or even a forth wife .
I said before that Al-ansar divorced their BELOVED women so that Immigrants at the days of the prophet can marry them ,I think this is huge sacrifice ;this is what I call brotherhood .
quote: The point is that Qaradawi says a man should FORCE his wife to wear a veil, even if she does not want to.
This is brand new ,I haven't heard it before and I am dead sure he did not say it .
Besides not answering mu questions ,you are pushing me to consider your points about Qaradawi so that you can practice your lovely habit :copy and paste.
quote: I am looking at human life, and from what I have observed the most successful marriages are the ones where both partners respect each other and make important decisions together -- not the ones where one person is in control.
I can't agree more
quote: A relationship is not a ship, this much overused metaphor is silly and can not be applied to a marriage.
I did not say relationship is a ship ,did I ?
Marriage is partnership and one decision have to be made .Just to make it clear ,I am with the opinion that a man should always consult his wife -even his children ,but in the last ONE decision have to taken .ONLY one and sorry would you please tell me who would make that decision?!
quote: The permission to marry more than one was a solution for taking care of orphans at a particular time and situation, it has nothing whatsoever to do with instinct.
who said that ?!
the verseS is so general .The prophet did not marry for that orphan thing,not Abobaker nor Omar .Would you please point me how many of the companions were married to orphans?!
Did the prophet ordered that his best friend Abobaker to marry an orphans?
Did he ordered any of his companions to just be satisfied by one woman ?!
hint:answer is no .
and Just to put and end to this idiotic thinking(which is probably is not yours but one of the articles you read) ,take this verse
60:10
"a you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them; Allah knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers send them not back to the disbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them. But give them (the disbelievers) that (amount of money) which they have spent [as their Mahr] to them. And there will be no sin on you to marry them if you have paid their Mahr to them. Likewise hold not the disbelieving women as wives, and ask for (the return of) that which you have spent (as Mahr) and let them (the disbelievers) ask back for that which they have spent. That is the Judgement of Allah, He judges between you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."
Allah is addressing all those who believe to marry Muslim women,after testing them .Obviously the addressing is not only about the orphans not it is about single men ;it is for all Muslim men to marry Muslim women who were immigrating to them in al-Madina
whoops!!
quote: It is not a solution for men who can't control their libido or whose wifes have particularly long menstrual periods, as Mr. Qaradawi claims.
No read the verse well ,it says
"en kheftm alla tokseto fy alyatama"
4:4
"And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls then marry (other) women of your choice"
It says if you can't deal justly with them .Justly for any reason ,may be he can't control his libido ,maybe he likes her ,maybe he csnt to control her money .Furthermore ,the verse says"then marry other women of your choice" it does not say marry the orphans girls.
And who the heck you are spreading the culture that GIRLS can marry ?!
In Islam ,girls do not marry ,only women can marry .
A girl becomes a woman in Islam when she has one menstrual cycle ,which is changed in later to be 3 menstrual cycles.
and Ending Footnote
Al-Bakara:235
"And there is no sin on you if you make a hint of betrothal or conceal it in yourself, Allah knows that you will remember them, but do not make a promise of contract with them in secret except that you speak an honywable saying according to the Islfunic law. And do not consummate the marriage until the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that Allah knows what is in your minds, so fear Him. And know that Allah is OftForgiving, Most Forbearing."
Allah in verse is giving the permission for all men (the pronoun you refers to men in the previous verse 234)to marry even divorced women (the pronoun them refers to divorced women widows or any kind of women ).Note that Allah doesnot even mention women who "make a hint of betrothal or conceal it in yourself "because it is not the norm ,it does not go with the shyness and the politenss behaviour of women's manners -which all women should be .
At the end ,we conclude that polygamy is Islamic legislation and it is instinct
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: If you think logically about this subject, it makes more sense for the woman to have more than one husband because a woman does not have to preform sexually like a man does, and the man makes more money so the more males the better the quality of life for the family. If the man is the one expected to provide for the family and there is just one husband and and injury or something happens to him the family sinks into poverty. If there are two or more husbands the provisions continue and the other husbands can provide for the family while the injured one recovers.
It is not about A MAN SPENDING MONEY ON HIS FAMILY.
It is about good instinct ,Chasity,piousness,shyness,manners .
I really do not know what kind of women who can agree that two man see her **** !!!
Even Animals do not do that !
These are not women for sure .
Women are described in the Koran and Islam goes beyond spoiling when he deals with women.
quote: as great as woman
Completely right
quote: Also, I disagree that a man can love more than one woman
I have just posted the verse that Allah talks about men mentioning women at the end of the previous post in response to Dalia .
It is reality a man can feel inclined to more than one woman but of course not equally.
God says man can do that ,but true women can't
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
no time Akmad, too busy laughing at your fellow moron Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
la2 da ana bas kont 3awez a3raf enta betefham 3arabi walla la2
keda enta 3adeet elemte7an ya shater
Mashi ya gameel .....begad neg7t ,,yahhhhhhhhh ,, el nas di mish 3awzeen Mon2asha ,,,walahi lo 3amelt keda al 100 sana el gayeen ya Hamaza houma magwezenn masreen , at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here , they are only here to pick on Islam ,,so no matter how you try ,,,bas khals Rabena ygazek Khair ya gamel ,,,
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
Just to show you how twisted you are ,weren't you the one who posted the FGM video which you claimed that the man in the conversation was supporting FGM?
So ,now we can't use vids in the debate!!
*sigh*
I did not say we can't use videos in a debate. I explained that I personally prefer texts because watching videos takes much, much longer than to read the same thing.
But moreover -- if YOU want to prove something you said, you can't post a link to a site full of videos and expect the other person to watch several of them in order to find a single statement you were referring to.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
I know it hurts ,but you have to admit ,some women however small percentage they are -do agree to be a second or a third wife or even a forth wife .
So what? I am well aware of this.
There are people agreeing to all sorts of odd or immoral things, that is not a proof for anything.
quote:
quote: The point is that Qaradawi says a man should FORCE his wife to wear a veil, even if she does not want to.
This is brand new ,I haven't heard it before and I am dead sure he did not say it .
A Muslim husband is to order his wife to wear hijab. ...
Muslim wives are to obey their husbands and wear hijab. If a woman disobeys her husband in that respect, he should take a serious decision on the matter if they are still in the beginning of their marriage. ... It is to be noted that a Muslim woman is principally obliged to wear hijab, for Allah Almighty has ordained her to do so. Her husband’s ordering her to wear it is a kind of emphasizing that obligation.
Besides not answering mu questions ,you are pushing me to consider your points about Qaradawi so that you can practice your lovely habit :copy and paste.
The issue of this thread was rape and marital rape, and it was you who asked me about Qaradawi. I just explained why I don't like him.
quote: Marriage is partnership and one decision have to be made .Just to make it clear ,I am with the opinion that a man should always consult his wife -even his children ,but in the last ONE decision have to taken .ONLY one and sorry would you please tell me who would make that decision?!
Err ... no. In a good relationship / marriage husband and wife make their decisions together. What makes you think that only one person should have the final right to make a decision? And if, why should it be the man? It has been proven over and over again that when decisions regarding the family are concerned, women tend to make the better decisions that are more likely to benefit everyone. Remember the famous Muhammad Yunus and his microcredit strategy? He lends money almost exclusively to women because it turned out they are much better at paying it back, handling it and using it for the overall good of everyone involved.
Saying that a man should be the one having the last word just because he has a different set of chromosomes is idiotic and does not make any sense.
quote: "And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls then marry (other) women of your choice"
It says if you can't deal justly with them .Justly for any reason ,may be he can't control his libido ,maybe he likes her ,maybe he csnt to control her money
The verse is about doing justice to the orphans. In no way can it be intepreted to be related to a man's libido!
Pickthall: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, Yusuf Ali: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Shakir: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, Dr. Ghali: And, in case you fear that you will not act equitably towards the orphans,
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Many Muslim nations which now consider polygamy unconstitutional have justified such changes in legislation on the basis of the overall Qur'anic perspective on marriage, as well as on modern Islamic perspectives of marriage. The marriage of subjugation at the time of revelation was premised on the need for females to be materially provided for by some male. The ideal male for a female child was the father, and for the adult female, the husband. This economic perspective of marriage - as indicated by several verses discussed above - will also be reviewed here with regard to polygamy.
If you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not be able do do justly (with them),then only one, ... to prevent you from doing justice. (4.3)
First, this verse is about treatment of orphans. Some male guardians, responsible for managing the wealth of orphaned female children, were unable to refrain from unjust management of that wealth. (4:2). One solution suggested to prevent mismanagement was marriage to the female orphans. On the one hand, the Qur'an limited this number to four, and on the other hand, the economic responsibility of maintaining the wife would counterbalance the access to the wealth of the orphaned female through the responsibility of management. However, most proponents of polygamy seldom discuss it within the context of just treatment of orphans.
In fact, as far as they are concerned, the only measurement of justice between wives is material - can a man equally support more than one wife? This is an extension of the archaic idea of marriages of subjugation, because fairness is not based on quality of time, equality in terms of affection, or on spiritual, moral, and intellectual support. These general terms of social justice are not considered with regard to just treatment with wives.
It is especially clear that this verse is concerned with justice: dealing justly, managing funds justly, justice to the orphans, and justice to the wives, etc. Justice is the focus of most modern commentaries concerned with polygamy. In the light of the verse 4:129 - "You are never able to be just and fair as between women ..." - many commentators assert that monogamy is the preferred marital arrangement of the Qur'an. Surely, it is impossible to attain the Qur'anic ideal with regard to mutuality ("They (feminine plural) are raiment for you (masculine plural) and you are raiment for them" (2:187)), and with regard to building between them "love and mercy" (30:21), when the husband-father is split between more than one family.
Finally, with regard to three common justifications given for polygamy, there is no direct sanction in the Qur'an. One is financial: in the context of economic problems such as unemployment, a financially capable man should care for more than one wife. Again, this assumes that all women are financial burdens: reproducers, but not porducers. In today's world a lot of women neither have nor need male supporters. For one thing, it is no longer accepted that only men can work, do work, or are the most productive workers, in all circumstances. With regard to work outside the home, i.e. paid employment, the market is based on productivitiy. Productivity in turn is based on a numer of factors, and gender is only one of them. Surely, polygamy is no simple solution to complex eoconomic problems.
Another rationale given for a man having more than one wife centres on the woman who is unable to have children. Again, there is no mention of this as a rationale for polygamy in the Qur'an. However, the desire for children is natural. Thus, consideration for the barren man and the barren woman should not exclude either from the chance of marriage, nor from the care and upbringing of children. What possible solution is mutually available when the wife or husband is sterile and the couple cannot have their own children?
In a world of war and devastation, there are still orphaned Muslim (and other) children who would benefit from the love and care of childless couples. Perhaps caring for all of the earth's children might be practised by Muslims in the light of global catastrophes still unresolved. One's own blood relations are important, but perhaps not in terms of the final judgement of one's ability to care and nurture.
Finally, the third rationale given for polygamy not only has no sanction in the Qur'an but is clearly un-Qur'anic as it attempts to sanction men's unbridled lust: that if a man's sexual needs cannot be satisfied by one wife, he should have two. Presumably, if his lust is greater than that, he should have three, and on until he has four. Only after this fourth are the Qur'anic principles of self-constraint, modesty, and fidelity finally to be exercised.
As self-constraint and fidelity are required at the onset for the wife, these moral virtues are equally significant for the husband. It is clear that the Qur'an does not stress a high, civilized level for women while leaving men to interact with others at the basest level. Otherwise, the mutual responsibility of khilafah (trusteeship) would be left to one half of humanity while the other half remains near the animal state.
Amina Wadud: Qur'an and Woman. Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's perspective Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
la2 da ana bas kont 3awez a3raf enta betefham 3arabi walla la2
keda enta 3adeet elemte7an ya shater
Mashi ya gameel .....begad neg7t ,,yahhhhhhhhh ,, el nas di mish 3awzeen Mon2asha ,,,walahi lo 3amelt keda al 100 sana el gayeen ya Hamaza houma magwezenn masreen , at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here , they are only here to pick on Islam ,,so no matter how you try ,,,bas khals Rabena ygazek Khair ya gamel ,,,
Wallhy ana 3aref en elnas de mafesh fy dem3'ha 7aga 3'er elhag9 we 3omrohom ma7yte3lemo 7aga homa mabye2darosh yedo ay daleel aw 7ogga we may2darosh ye8are3o el7oga be 7oga tanya shoyet neswan ma3ndahash showyah men el27mar
7atab gahanam Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here
I don't have a husband. Why would I? Egyptian guys are easy ... so it's much more convenient to have a bunch of toyboys instead.
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
Dalia ,,i did not mean you so please chill out a bit ,,,and i am ready to invite you a drink any time you like ,,,so you would know that i do not have a double face
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Gosh, ME, do you think everyone is as easy as you are???
What a shame that you have to screw tourists to bring your daily food on the table. Hopefully your dog receives a bone at least once in a while.
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here
I don't have a husband. Why would I? Egyptian guys are easy ... so it's much more convenient to have a bunch of toyboys instead.
You cannot get me Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: did not say we can't use videos in a debate. I explained that I personally prefer texts because watching videos takes much, much longer than to read the same thing.
But moreover -- if YOU want to prove something you said, you can't post a link to a site full of videos and expect the other person to watch several of them in order to find a single statement you were referring to
I offered you to upload that specific episode but you did not ask !
Besides ,we were taught that when you see and hear something it would be more easy than reading it ,this is one of the principles of education .
any teacher knows that .
quote:So what? I am well aware of this.
There are people agreeing to all sorts of odd or immoral things, that is not a proof for anything.
But this situation is completely moral and was permitted by Allah Himself .
I posted several proofs for polygamy which you chose to ignore ,how twisted can you be more than that?!
ignoring the proofs and the facts and the refutation and saying polygamy is immoral .
No ,It is Moral even if you hate it .
quote:A Muslim husband is to order his wife to wear hijab
Look how twisted how you are .
You said before he said that the man said "men have the right to order their wives to wear NIQAB"
now you say Hijab?!!!
this is the lamest and the most pathetic thing I have ever came across through my whole life .
Yes ,a man has the right to order his wife wear HIJAB and decent clothes.
I can provide dozens and dozens of proofs .
quote: The issue of this thread was rape and marital rape, and it was you who asked me about Qaradawi. I just explained why I don't like him.
No No no .
lets revise this again ,I said
"there are a lot of people WHO are willing to do anything to justify their opinions even if they are wrong "
you said
"like all those sheiks are justifying that "
I asked to be given examples and you gave me only 3 !!!!
This does not coincide with the word "all those "
just to show you how far you can go to prove your biased and ant-men point .
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote: And if, why should it be the man?
4:34
الرجال قوامون على النساء
"men are protectors and maintaniers of women "
let's analyze this verse the word"qwwam " basically means "standing " which can contain a lot of meaning the word "Qwwam " is something like "he is tired and endeavoring in standing " !! صيغة مبالغة and 4:32
"And wish not for the things in which Allah has made some of you to excel others"
so do not wish Dalia as a woman to be a man
sorry but maneuvering in the Quran is my playground ,you cannot beat me there.
secondly Money is one aspect in this life ,there are thousands of other aspects that should be considered to say who is better.
Men are not better than women and women are not better than men ,every gender was created for certain and specific job in this life and it is the normal behavior that man has the last word .I can provide a lot of evidence if you need .I already gave one .Men and women MUST collaborate to build a family ,only wise ,mature and rational men listen to their wives and they both think together to balance things out ,to compare things and ,only smart men can make this ,but after all life is a ship and there is one leader for that ship .
quote: It has been proven over and over again that when decisions regarding the family are concerned, women tend to make the better decisions that are more likely to benefit everyone. Remember the famous Muhammad Yunus and his microcredit strategy? He lends money almost exclusively to women because it turned out they are much better at paying it back, handling it and using it for the overall good of everyone involved.
It has not been proven.Firstly you are talking about money which sadly is not true since the first 10 millionaire in this world are men and the number of women in the 500 hundred list given by Forbes can be safely ignored .Could you tell me please how many women are there in that list ?!!
secondly ,you do not get it ,I do not get my knowledge from a creature like me ,I get it from the Creator of all Creatures :Allah the All-Wise.
when you buy a TV you read its manual;the manual prepared by the engineers who created that machine .Now ,we are talking about Human beings ,surely we should ask the Creator.
If those men proved anything ,they only proved exceptions if the experiment really did work out or even if the experiment was carried out in the first place!!
quote: The verse is about doing justice to the orphans. In no way can it be intepreted to be related to a man's libido!
firstly ,it is interpreted.
The verse does not restrict the meaning to any cause ,so this is so general and you have no proof for what you say .
The reason can be anything ,I hope you read my post again slowly
The verse says"if you are afraid to deal unjustly " but does not say afraid of what and does not say why !
The verse is so general and can be looked upon form any respect.
For example,there might be a gorgeous orphan girl but rich and it might happened that the man looking after her sees her beautiful and guess what happens ?he suddenly likes her and wants to marry her ,isn't that called libido ?!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here
I don't have a husband. Why would I? Egyptian guys are easy ... so it's much more convenient to have a bunch of toyboys instead.
You cannot get me
ROFLMAO OMG like anyone would WANT you!!
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here
I don't have a husband. Why would I? Egyptian guys are easy ... so it's much more convenient to have a bunch of toyboys instead.
You cannot get me
ROFLMAO OMG like anyone would WANT you!!
Another pm
she became a Muslim and wear Hijab to achieve a devilish plan of her own,She went to an industrial tribunal and got the money for religious discrimination after being called Valerie Bin Laden for wearing a hijab. They gave her the £6,000 to get rid of her and kicked her out.Now she has the money and a job in Luxor and she has ditched the hijab !!!! End .......................................
Do you still wear your Hijab ?
I am not against any Muslim girl does not wear Hijab (i do not judge when it comes to God thing ) and because God when he ordered women to wear Hijab.his call was for the faithful women ,,being a Muslim does not make every one faithful in general but iam against using God and religion for own benefits !!!!
this one is for you :-
What goes through your mind? As you sit there looking at me Well I can tell from your looks That you think I’m so oppressed But I don’t need for you to liberate me
My head is not bare And you can’t see my covered hair So you sit there and you stare And you judge me with your glare You’re sure I’m in despair But are you not aware Under this scarf that I wear I have feelings, and I do care
So don’t you see? That I’m truly free This piece of scarf on me I wear so proudly To preserve my dignity...
My modesty My integrity So don’t judge me Open your eyes and see... “Why can’t you just accept me?” she says “Why can’t I just be me?” she says Time and time again You speak of democracy Yet you rob me of my liberty And all I want is equality Why can’t you just let me be free?
For you I sing this song My sister, may you always be strong From you I’ve learnt so much How you suffer so much Yet you forgive those who laugh at you You walk with no fear Through the insults you hear Your wish so sincere That they’d understand you But before you walk away This time you turn and say:
But don’t you see? That I’m truly free This piece of scarf on me I wear so proudly To preserve my dignity My modesty My integrity So let me be She says with a smile I’m the one who’s free
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: at home they tell their husbands something and they say something else here
I don't have a husband. Why would I? Egyptian guys are easy ... so it's much more convenient to have a bunch of toyboys instead.
You cannot get me
ROFLMAO OMG like anyone would WANT you!!
Did Rahala/Akmad just tried to flirt here with Dalia??? Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
Besides ,we were taught that when you see and hear something it would be more easy than reading it ,this is one of the principles of education .
Yeah, that is true if you're speaking about a documentary or something like that. But I if you just have a speaker sitting in front of the camera saying things you could just as well read, then no.
Most people read much, much faster than a person speaks. So reading something takes way less time than listening to someone telling it to you.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
The verse says"if you are afraid to deal unjustly " but does not say afraid of what and does not say why !
Yes, it does. It says that if you are afraid to deal unjustly WITH THE ORPHANS. You can not just drop a part of the verse in order to distort its meaning.
Since you are a fan of Ibn Kathir, I suggest you read his tafsir on the verse in question. He also explains that it is clearly about orphans and managing the orphans' wealth>
I posted several proofs for polygamy which you chose to ignore ,how twisted can you be more than that?!
ignoring the proofs and the facts and the refutation and saying polygamy is immoral .
I did not ignore them. I don't see them as proofs.
Polygamy was a solution for taking care of orphans and widows at a particular time in history when a) polygamy was the norm anyway and b) people lived in tribal society structures and women were not capable of taking care of themselves financially.
The Qur'an offers a solution for that particular situation but also clearly says that monogamy is the preferred form of marriage. God clearly tells us that a man will never be able to be just to more than one wife, it can't get clearer than that.
Also, there are other, beautiful, verses which describe the relationship of man and woman. They say, for example, that husband and wife are "garments for each other", that they should find peace and tranquility in their relationship. God says men and women are awliya (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another. All that is not possible in a polygamous relationship.
As for morality -- the Qur'an also contains many instructions on how to deal with slaves. But no sane person would conclude from that that slavery is the norm and that it would be morally right to practice it nowadays.
The same goes for polygamy. But there are selfish, immoral men who won't let go of what they regard as a privilege, that's why we still see some people defending it and claiming it's God's will.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
quote:A Muslim husband is to order his wife to wear hijab
Look how twisted how you are .
You said before he said that the man said "men have the right to order their wives to wear NIQAB"
now you say Hijab?!!!
Would you please stop lying!
My fist post on the issue said>
He says a husband should force his wife to wear a veil.
Yes ,a man has the right to order his wife wear HIJAB and decent clothes.
I can provide dozens and dozens of proofs .
Nonsense. You can provide texts by Qaradawi and other morons who claim this, based on their twisted, patriarchalic understanding of men--women relationships. But there is nothing in the Qur'an that says a man is to boss his wife around and tell her how to dress.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
"like all those sheiks are justifying that "
I asked to be given examples and you gave me only 3 !!!!
This does not coincide with the word "all those "
just to show you how far you can go to prove your biased and ant-men point .
Err ... I don't understand your problem at all. Three influential scholars justifying marital rape is not enough as an example? I would say that is already three to many.
And those were only the ones mentioned in this thread before. If you read "Islamic" books, websites, pamphlets, you will find more. There are countless fatawa and texts out there saying that a wife is not allowed to refuse sex with her husband and / or saying that it is the husband's right to force his wife to have sex. That IS marital rape, in case you weren't aware. And, yes, it IS amazing what all those scholars claim to prove their point although they are wrong. Coercion and forced sex have no place in a relationship! How does that go along with love, mercy, with being awliya of each other, with finding peace with your partner?
This guy -- Mufti Ikrima Sabri from Palestine -- even makes fun of people who claim that marital rape is a crime and that the wife should give her consent. How disgusting is that?!
They even have some laws in the West that if a husband has sex with his wife against her will, or, in other words, when she doesn't want it, he is tried and jailed. ... a woman who was rebellious against her husband sued him for sleeping with her against her will. He was treated as a rapist. The husband was considered a rapist and was severely punished.
He was punished as a rapist merely because he slept with his wife against her will.
Btw., how come you are getting all angry and upset about me criticizing those scholars who defend marital rape, but the issue itself is not worth a single comment for you. So I assume you agree with the morons who defend and propagate this abysmal crime.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
Firstly you are talking about money which sadly is not true since the first 10 millionaire in this world are men and the number of women in the 500 hundred list given by Forbes can be safely ignored .Could you tell me please how many women are there in that list ?!!
That has nothing to do with what I was saying.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
If those men proved anything ,they only proved exceptions if the experiment really did work out or even if the experiment was carried out in the first place!!
You lost me now. Which men and which experiment are you talking about?
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
Men are not better than women and women are not better than men ,every gender was created for certain and specific job in this life and it is the normal behavior that man has the last word
There is nothing normal about this at all. It is only "normal" if you believe men are smarter, better, more rational and more capable of making right decisions ... which is nonsense.
As for men and women only being created for specific jobs -- I posted a very good and comprehensive text on this earlier here. There is nothing to add.
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ROFLMAO OMG like anyone would WANT you!!
Now the attorney has some time to reply Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rahala: and what do you prefer to be a girlfriend or a second wife?!
A girlfriend that has no right and her lover can abandon her at any moment or a second wife who has all rights?!
If you prefer to be a girl friend then hate to tell you you are humiliating yourself.
Defendtly choose to be the girlfriend. You got that all wrong Ahmed. Being a 2. wife is humiliating. Then you show the world you are not woman enough for your man and he shows his bad moral in public by marrying more than 1 woman at a time. To hell with the rights your talking about. Being a girlfriend also gives y rights - the right to run fast if the bastard even as much as think of bringing another woman into the relationship. Marriage in Egypt for some men is a way of chaining women to the man and the house insted of given them rights. Even the use of the word right is a total misunderstanding.
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Yeah, that is true if you're speaking about a documentary or something like that. But I if you just have a speaker sitting in front of the camera saying things you could just as well read, then no.
Most people read much, much faster than a person speaks. So reading something takes way less time than listening to someone telling it to you.
This might be the first exception I see-assuming you saying the truth not just giving a lame excuse.
quote: Yes, it does. It says that if you are afraid to deal unjustly WITH THE ORPHANS. You can not just drop a part of the verse in order to distort its meaning.
Since you are a fan of Ibn Kathir, I suggest you read his tafsir on the verse in question. He also explains that it is clearly about orphans and managing the orphans' wealth>
Yes ,it says so ,but it does not say why ?!
Does the verse give the reason ?!
It does not .This is the point .What you are trying to do is to restrict the meaning of the verse which is not true ,the verse is so general and you you trying to give the verse specific meaning-I have been asking questions and I have no reply !!
Seems as if someone do not have an answer.
I am not a big fan og Ibn Katheer ,I respect his opinions but he does not say Quran .
quote: Polygamy was a solution for taking care of orphans and widows at a particular time in history when a) polygamy was the norm anyway and b) people lived in tribal society structures and women were not capable of taking care of themselves financially.
I posted several other proofs and verse which you did not reply to .
you concentrating only in one verse ,which you insist on restrict its meaning to specific reason which you cannot back up .
quote: He says a husband should force his wife to wear a veil
The veil is Niqab and you know this .Hijab is scarf and do not twsit things .
quote: But there is nothing in the Qur'an that says a man is to boss his wife around and tell her how to dress.
I can provide as much as i can .
Just to illustrate this ,A muslim man can force his MUSLIM woman to Hijab not niqab .
Hijab is fard ,Niqab is not
taha :132
"And enjoin As-Salat (the prayer) on your family,"
The verse says that the prophet MUST force his wives and others to the prayer.
The verse of course is not restricted to the prayer ,the soul of the verse means order them to do all the duties .what kind of language would we have in the Kora if God says :order them to pray ,do alms ,.....thousands of other orders
And I provided the Other verse ehich says simply that men are "Qwwammon "
You are saying a lot of things that you cannot back up .
quote: Three influential scholars justifying marital rape is not enough as an example?
Thy are influential as you think ,Al0Mnjid is not as influsnetial as you think ,and I have never read something for him and won't.
Al-Qaradawi did not say "man can rape his wife " it is your humble understanding .
you did not back up that.
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: That has nothing to do with what I was saying.
It has .You gave Muhammad Yuus ax example and you said woman can make wiser financial decision (microcredit)the microcredit is about money nothing more nothing less.
And I gave a lot of verses that back up my opinions in which you are choosing to ignore .Just to show how sincere you are .
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: This might be the first exception I see-assuming you saying the truth not just giving a lame excuse..
Now this is getting a bit ridiculous. To say it one last time ... I prefer reading to watching someone sitting in front of a camera telling me things. That is MY personal preference because it saves a lot of time, and I find it easier to digest information that way. I don't need an "excuse" for that.
quote: I posted several other proofs and verse which you did not reply to .
you concentrating only in one verse ,which you insist on restrict its meaning to specific reason which you cannot back up .
Again: What you see as "proof" I don't.
I explained my opinion on polygamy and will not change it no matter how many "proofs" you bring. And I don't see much sense in further arguing about it. You have your opinion and I have mine, we just have to agree to disagree.
quote: The veil is Niqab and you know this .Hijab is scarf and do not twsit things .
Please do not tell me what I supposedly mean or said.
When I say veil, I am referring to hijab, i.e. a headscarf. If I am talking about niqab, I say niqab, as you can check in other discussions.
The word hijab comes from the root hajaba / حجب, which means to veil, cover, screen, shelter, seclude (from), to hide, obscure (from sight) etc. So for me it makes perfect sense to use the word veil to refer to hijab, it's as simple as that.
quote: Just to illustrate this ,A muslim man can force his MUSLIM woman to Hijab
Fine. That's your opinion. I disagree. Not much sense further arguing about it.
quote:Thy are influential as you think ,Al0Mnjid is not as influsnetial as you think ,and I have never read something for him and won't.
His name is al-Munajjid.
He might not be influential in the little bubble you are living in. But his fatwa site is one of the most popular ones out there and countless Muslims hold his opinions in very high regard. Sadly, there are also many Muslim forums out there where only his fatawa and those of a few other select Salafi scholars are accepted.
He is a horrible, horrible man and I wish he was less influentual. But neither that, nor the fact that you don't know him, changes the fact that he is.
quote:Al-Qaradawi did not say "man can rape his wife " it is your humble understanding .
Let me spell it out for you one last time: If a scholar claims that a wife has no right to refuse her husband if he wants sex with her, if he says that a woman is committing a big sin if she does not sleep with her husband and that the angels will curse her and other such crap, this IS propagating marital rape. If you don't understand this, I suggest you read the first pages of this thread where this was explained and discussed before. I don't see much sense in repeating things over and over again.
quote:It has .You gave Muhammad Yuus ax example and you said woman can make wiser financial decision (microcredit)the microcredit is about money nothing more nothing less.
No, you missed the point. It is not "only about money".
It is about the ability to make responsible decisions for the overall good of the family. Something that, according to you, Qaradawi and others, only men are capable of.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: And I gave a lot of verses that back up my opinions in which you are choosing to ignore .Just to show how sincere you are .
I am not ignoring them, I simply don't think they prove what you say they prove. And I see no sense in arguing with someone who has an entirely different understanding. If you believe a verse that speaks about doing justice towards orphans, for example, could be referring to a man's libido, there is simply no common ground to argue.
And I know that if I keep discussing this with you, the discussion will soon take the same course all other discussions with you took: You will accuse me and anyone else who disagrees with you of being stupid, of not knowing Arabic well enough, of being unbelievers etc. pp. And soon you will resort to foul language, insults and claiming that you are the only one who understands things correctly.
I have neither the time nor the energy for that sort of thing. Luckily, I know enough Muslims who share my understanding of faith and with whom I can have positive, enlightening debates; so I'd rather spend my time talking to them than going around in circles and reading insults and chauvinistic crap. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
In a recent Friday sermon from Qatar by Sheikh Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi, he condemned Christmas celebrations in Muslim countries, saying that they were forbidden and stating that the Muslim nation is abandoning its Muslim identity.
The guy is 83 ... I think it's about time he drops dead, that would be one instigator less in this world. Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Again: What you see as "proof" I don't
Exactly what I thought.
You can not bring anything about my logic or my proofs but I can refute whatsoever you say.
That's why people like you can make no change UN real life.
Saying that evidence are not proofs .I can reply in return telling you that what you write is not an opinion
How sophistic can you go not to admit the reality ?
quote: When I say veil, I am referring to hijab
Do not twist things out. why can't you admit that you are lying and twisting things out?
do this :
in google type :define veil
amazingly we will get this
face covering worn by women: a length of fabric, usually sheer, worn by women over the head and face as a concealment or for protection
Guess what it means
!
Well ,I think you should author your own dictionary and please do not forget to publish to the web so we can check the meaning of your words
quote: His name is al-Munajjid.
Bravo ,I do not care what is his name ,it would amaze you if I told you I never heard of him until I came across this site.
I do not know where did you got those brilliant information :his site is one of the most visited ;most influential .
You are so desperate .
And do not twist things ,you said "all those" but you can only give 3 examples
You can keep running away from the real discussion
quote: I simply don't think they prove what you say they prove
using your logic ,Then me too I do not think what you write is a proof for anything nor does it express an opinion
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: And I know that if I keep discussing this with you, the discussion will soon take the same course all other discussions with you took: You will accuse me and anyone else who disagrees with you of being stupid, of not knowing Arabic well enough, of being unbelievers etc. pp. And soon you will resort to foul language, insults and claiming that you are the only one who understands things correctly
Good excuse to escape from the discussion
quote: I know enough Muslims who share my understanding of faith
Apart from the fact that we an never check the reality of this sentence ,I think the word "enough " you used means lesbians and gays you like and have friendship with them .
I might be mistaken .
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: You can not bring anything about my logic or my proofs but I can refute whatsoever you say.
You still don't get it, do you?
I see neither logic nor any sort of proof in your argument, and I find the way you hold a debate tedious and not productive, that's why I don't see any sense in further going around in circles.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: That's why people like you can make no change UN real life.
Obviously you don't know me in real life. And I am sure I have done more to eliminate prejudices about Islam than you and the hateful, intolerant stuff you write on a message board.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Do not twist things out. why can't you admit that you are lying and twisting things out?
do this :
in google type :define veil
amazingly we will get this
face covering worn by women: a length of fabric, usually sheer, worn by women over the head and face as a concealment or for protection
Guess what it means
I explained to you two times now that I was referring to hijab, i.e. headcover. If you, as a native Arabic speaker, can not understand that the words "hijab" and "hajaba" have the same root and my definition thus makes sense, I can't help you. Take it or leave it. If you believe I am lying, I suggest you take a look at old threads and you will see that whenever I mean niqab I write "niqab".
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Well ,I think you should author your own dictionary and please do not forget to publish to the web so we can check the meaning of your words
I am using Hans Wehr's Arabic -- German dictionary which is one of the most renowned ones.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Bravo ,I do not care what is his name ,it would amaze you if I told you I never heard of him until I came across this site.
Actually, even your beloved Qaradawi uses Munajjid's fatawa on his Islamonline website.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: You are so desperate .
And do not twist things ,you said "all those" but you can only give 3 examples
You can keep running away from the real discussion
Actually, you are the one running away from the discussion. You have not once taken a clear stand on the issue we were talking about, i.e. rape and marital rape. Instead you keep dancing around the subject and nitpicking on the fact that I didn't give you "enough" examples of scholars justifying it.
There are way more than just three scholars who defend marital rape by claiming the wife HAS to sleep with her husband no matter whether she wants to or not. I have no problem giving you more examples, but, as I said, I already gave you the names of three well-known scholars and I believe that is sufficient in order to discuss the issue.
But let me guess ... you probably agree with them that it is a husband's right to force his wife to sleep with him. Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
This is how Arabs were so fascinated by women, that they gave each her correct description in one single word..some are obscene, but what the heck, we're not babies anymore and nobody reads arabic anyway, except very few..
الجريم : المرأة إذا الجسم الطويل ومؤخرتها متجانسة مع مسحة ظهرها .
السبحـلة : المرأة إذا زادت ضخامتها ولم تـقـبح .
العـيطبـول : المرأة اذا كان ثديها ثابتاً
القسيـمـة : المرأة صاحبت الخصر النحيل والصدر الكبير .
الخــود : المرأة شـديـدة سـواد الشعر وبياض الوجه مع سعـة المقـلة .
الممـلـودة : المرأة اذا كانت كبيرة العينين صغيرة الوجه ونحيلة الجسم
الخرعـبـة : المرأة ذات المؤخرة الكبيرة المشدودة .
الشنقيطية: المرأة ذات المؤخرة الكبيرة ومبسوطة في الانفتاح وترتـج من سمنها
البرمادة : المرأة ذات الفخوذ السمينة.
الرقراقة : ممدودة الشفتين صغيرة العينين ..
العـبـقـرة : المرأة المرأة الناعـمة الجميلة كثيرة الحركة وتلفت الانتباه برجرجة صدرها ..
الغـيـداء : المرأة التي تبرز مؤخرتها عمدا
الرشـوف : المرأة المتوازنة من حيث حجم صدرها ومؤخرتها .
أنـــوف : المرأة اذا كانت مؤخرتها صغيرة .
الـشـموع : المرأة .. اللعـوب .. الضحـوك ..
الدخيـمة : المرأة اذا كانت منخـفـضة الصوت .
البلهـاء : المرأة الكـريـمـة .
الفيصاء : المرأة الطويلة العـنـق ..
وفي الجنس قالت العرب:
العـروب : الزوجة التي تتعامل مع جسد زوجها بشئ من التكلف
الـنـوار : المرأة التي تبدو وكأنها لا تحب المعاشرة الجنسية
الشموس : المرأة التي لا تطمع الرجال في نفـسها
الفرس : المرأة التي تتولى زمام المبادرة في طلب الجنس
المهـاب : المرأة التي تكون مسؤولة عن قيادة اللقاء الجنسي للوصول إلى الذروة
مقـلات : الزوجة التي لا تهتم بمظهرها في الفراش
محمقة : المرأة التي تستجيب للجنس بتلقائية
الشفره : هي التي شهوتها مابين شفريها وعلامتها أن تكون متململه عند الجماع
الونانة: وهي التي تئن عند الجماع
الهبوب: تعشق العضو القصير الغليظ وتحب حك الشفرين وتستلذ بذلك وبأن لا يولج الرجل فيها مباشرة
العـانـق : المرأة التي لاتحب الجماع على ظهرها كثيرا فهي تفضل الجماع على جنبها 0
القعره : وهي التي شهوتها في قعر فرجها وتحب الشدة من الرجل وتحب الجماع والرهز والمشاركة
الشمالية: تعشق العضو الطويل الغليظ الصلب
الرجراجة : وهي السريعة الإنزل مرة بعد مره مادام الرجل مقبلاُ على جماعها فإذا تركها سكنت وهدأت وإن أستمر أستمرت.
الرتـكـة : وهي التي لايشعر الرجل بإنزالها ولاتخبره بذلك بل شهوتها مع الرجل مستمره ولذتها به دائمه
الأنوفه: المرأة التي تجامع على مضض، وتأنف من الجماع قبل الإنزال، وما أن ينزل ماؤها حتى تنبعث شهوتها وترغب في الإستمرار
الدهثمة : المرأة السـهـلة .
الهنانة : وهي التي تنضح عند الإنزال حتى تملأ فرجها وقضيب الرجل بمائها ويكون لفرجها دموع كدموع القضيب ويحس الرجل بدفقها على بطنه وبين فخذيه
الربوخه : وهي التي يغشى عليها عند إنزالها وذلك لشدة شهوتها ولا تفيق إلا فاترة الأعضاء
Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
translation please Dzosser Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Micky ! Merry Xmas ! Actually it can't be translated into English since the words are in Arabic just to describe a woman with a big/small butt/boobs, 'SHANKETEYA/ANOOF' or one that is multi-orgasmic 'REGRAGA'..or the one that orgasms without telling her man 'RATIKA' or the one that's soaked.. 'HANANA' and the one that faints from pleasure 'RABOUKHA', the one that enjoys short thick dick 'HABOUB'..the one that fancies long stiff dicks 'SHAMALEYA'..the words are straight to the point..our language is very rich Micky, I don't want to translate them all since the 'conservative members' will be offended by a dirty old man's post. Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
ty ....merry Christmas to you too ...dirty ole man
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Also, I disagree that a man can love more than one woman. A man can f*** more than one woman but nature shows that their capacity for real love is not as great as woman. A woman loves many, children, parents, husband, friends... IMHO
I disagree with this part of your post. Love towards children, parents etc. is NOT the same as love towards a spouse or intimate partner. I would say that very, very few men AND women are capable of loving more than one person romantically.
When talking about the issue of polygamy, we should always keep in mind that the ideal of romantic love as we know it is a relatively new one, in the East as well as in the West. The practice of polygamy and the rules pertaining to it come from a time when marriage had little to do with love but a lot with strengthening bonds between families, economic factors, political reasons and so on and so forth. And most conservative Islamic scholars still look at marriage from that perspective -- sex and service for the man, a "dignified" position and material security for the woman. That's why they focus on material aspects only when discussing the subject of equality and justice and neglect all the other aspects which for most of us in this day and age are essential for a romantic relationship.
Anyway ... merry Christmas everyone! I'm off now to help my friend and her kids decorate the tree and celebrate a bit.
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: I see neither logic nor any sort of proof in your argument, and I find the way you hold a debate tedious and not productive, that's why I don't see any sense in further going around in circles.
No No ,you still do not get what I want to say .
All I can see in your ousts is a mere arrangement of words that do not fit together and further more it does not make any sense at least for 1.2 million people on this planet.
quote:Obviously you don't know me in real life. And I am sure I have done more to eliminate prejudices about Islam than you and the hateful, intolerant stuff you write on a message board.
Wow,of course you did .
A woman who hate all prophets besides being abashed about her religion .Surely you did a lot.
quote: Actually, you are the one running away from the discussion. You have not once taken a clear stand on the issue we were talking about, i.e. rape and marital rape.
I am not the one who said
"And I know that if I keep discussing this with you, ....."
Seems like someone is running away of the arena
Anyway ,you are welcomed any time.
quote: I believe that is sufficient in order to discuss the issue.
Sufficient in your little bubble known as your logic.
You are welcomed in the debate again any time.But ,please the next time, make sure you arrange the words well so they make sense .
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Micky ! Merry Xmas ! Actually it can't be translated into English since the words are in Arabic just to describe a woman with a big/small butt/boobs, 'SHANKETEYA/ANOOF' or one that is multi-orgasmic 'REGRAGA'..or the one that orgasms without telling her man 'RATIKA' or the one that's soaked.. 'HANANA' and the one that faints from pleasure 'RABOUKHA', the one that enjoys short thick dick 'HABOUB'..the one that fancies long stiff dicks 'SHAMALEYA'..the words are straight to the point..our language is very rich Micky, I don't want to translate them all since the 'conservative members' will be offended by a dirty old man's post.
Wow ,Dzosser Those Arabs were so God damn experienced in the process
Where did you get those ?!
Is it from Feqh Al-Lo3'a Al3arabya?!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Da wa7id ba3athali 3al mail..beygeeli kiteer min dah ya Ahmed Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
fehmt fehmt
Fe3lan el3arab kan 3andohom 7a2 enhom ye3tazo belo3'tehom Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
The Effects of Marital Rape
Despite the myth that has historically existed that rape by one's partner is a relatively insignificant event causing little trauma, research indicates that marital rape often has severe and long-lasting consequences for women. The physical effects of marital rape may include injuries to the vaginal and anal areas, lacerations, soreness, bruising, torn muscles, fatigue, and vomiting (Adams, 1993; Bergen, 1996). Women who have been battered and raped by their husbands may suffer other physical consequences including broken bones, black eyes, bloody noses, and knife wounds that occur during the sexual violence.
Campbell and Alford (1989) report that one half of the marital rape survivors in their sample were kicked, hit, or burned during sex. Specific gynecological consequences of marital rape include vaginal stretching, anal tearing, pelvic pain, urinary tract infections, miscarriages, stillbirths, bladder infections, infertility, and the potential contraction of sexually transmitted diseases including HIV/AIDS (Campbell & Alford, 1989; Campbell & Soeken, 1999; Eby, Campbell & Sullivan, 1995). A study of existing research conducted by Maman, Campbell, Sweat, and Gielen (2000) found that there is a relationship between increased HIV risk and forced sexual intercourse. Most notably this is the result of women's inability to use barrier contraceptives because of their partners' threats or refusal to use condoms (Bennice & Resick, 2003; Eby et al., 1995). The inability to use contraception may also lead to unwanted pregnancy. Campbell and Alford (1989) found that approximately 17% of the marital rape survivors in their sample reported an unwanted pregnancy. The same study found that 20% of the women who had been raped by their partner experienced miscarriages or stillbirths (Campbell & Alford, 1989).
Some researchers have compared the psychological effects of being raped by one's partner to other forms of violence. Given that women who are raped by their partners are likely to experience multiple assaults, completed sexual attacks, and that they are raped by someone whom they once presumably loved and trusted, it is not surprising that marital rape survivors seem to suffer severe and long-term psychological consequences (Kilpatrick et al., 1988; Frieze, 1983).
Similar to other survivors of sexual violence, some of the short-term effects of marital rape include anxiety, shock, intense fear, depression, suicidal ideation, disordered sleeping, and post-traumatic stress disorder (Bergen, 1996; Kilpatrick et al., 1988; Russell, 1990; Stermac et al., 2001). Women raped by their intimate partners are more likely to be diagnosed with depression or anxiety than those who are victims of physical violence and those who were sexually assaulted by someone other than one's partner (Plichta & Falik, 2001). Long-term effects often include disordered eating, sleep problems, depression, sexual distress, problems establishing trusting relationships, distorted body image, and increased negative feelings about themselves (Bergen, 1996; Frieze, 1983; Ullman & Siegel, 1993). Research has also indicated that the psychological effects are likely to be long lasting - some marital rape survivors report flash-backs, sexual dysfunction, and emotional pain for years after the violence (Bennice & Resick, 2003; Bergen, 1996; Finkelhor & Yllo, 1985).
...
Many women do not feel comfortable contacting the police, and alternatively choose to speak with their religious advisers. Researchers have found that support for women in violent relationships is not always forthcoming from religious advisers.
In a study of battered women, Bowker (1983) found that they ranked clergy members as the least helpful of those to whom they had turned for assistance. The emphasis of some religious institutions on wives' responsibility "to obey their husbands" and the sinfulness of women's refusal to have sexual intercourse with their husbands, perpetuate the problem of marital rape.
Thus, it is particularly important for religious leaders to hold men accountable for their sexually violent behavior and to challenge ideology that perpetuates victim-blaming (Adams, 1993; Bennice & Resick, 2003).
There is a particular need for religious leaders to end the silence surrounding rape in intimate relationships and publicly "name" this form of violence and acknowledge its prevalence within their communities (Adams, 1993). There are several recommendations offered by Yllo and LeClerc (1988) and Adams (1993) for religious advisors to assist marital rape survivors, including; inviting women to speak about their experiences of sexual violence, helping women to name their experiences "rape," focusing on the responsibility of the abuser not the wife, and working to challenge social conventions that perpetuate marital rape.
... Clearly, most women enter marriage with the expectation that they will voluntarily enjoy sexual relations with their husbands. Equally clear is that many women do not. Statistics of reported rape regardless of religious affiliation indicate that 25 percent of all such attacks involve a husband, as the perpetrator, and his wife, as the victim, according to Pamela Cook, a Certified Domestic Violence Worker for the state of Illinois, a political scientist, and a doctoral student at the University of Chicago, whose research considers issues of race, gender, and power. ...
One Imam humorously shared a story about a husband who engaged in forced sexual intercourse with his wife because the husband “couldn’t help himself.” In the story, the couple went to court at which the judge directed the husband to “just take her to dinner.” Apparently, to this American Muslim leader, rape does not occur within marriage. His perspective resonates with the sentiments of a Muslim leader in Malaysia, who claimed in 2004, “forcing one’s wife to have sex is not marital rape and not against Islam” (13). At the time, another Malaysian official announced that Islamic law was sufficient to “check” any spousal abuses by the husband (14). Yet, Malaysian women continue to be forced to engage in marital sex, begging the question: Is it the civil law, Shari’ah Law, their interpretations, or any one of the former that require our urgent attention?
quote:Originally posted by MY NAME IS NO MORE .....,:
By Sheikh Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid ( A Saudi Islamic lecturer and author)
Rape is an abhorrent crime and an abominable sin. This heinous crime is forbidden not only in Islam but in all religions, and all people of sound thinking and pure human nature reject it.
The Arabic word ightisab (rape) refers to taking something wrongfully by force. It is now used exclusively to refer to transgression against the honor of women by force.
This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who possess sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it.
From the same sheikh:
... With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that once a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger. Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine.
In other words: It's ok to rape a girl as long as you're married to her.
This is so disgusting and perverted, I really lack words to express my emotions!!! Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
It is reality a man can feel inclined to more than one woman but of course not equally.
God says man can do that ,but true women can't
No. God says in very clear words than a man can't do that.
You will never be able to do perfect justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire 4:129
And what the heck is a "true woman"? The opposite of an "untrue woman"? Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Women’s Hell, Rapist’s heaven, God’s forgotten land …
The general consensus in civilised cultures is that raping women is wrong. Those men who do choose to commit such evil should be at least locked up to keep other women safe. But some societies prefer to deal with rape in a very different manner.
In Saudi Arabia society makes it easy on the rapists by blaming women for being women.
If you are raped you did something wrong. Men are just men and can’t help themselves. Because women do wrong all the time. Because women are sin and guilt and all evil.
It is only reasonable they should be enclosed, locked up in segregated schools, houses, and when they are out and about, locked up in constricting suffocating layers of black cloth. Oh, yes, to ensure nobody can object, they make some twisted references to religion, Islam.
Because religion makes sure nobody can complain. It’s really like the tale of the Emperor’s new clothes…
So if a girl is being gangraped, and then is burdened with an unwanted baby, and tries to get an abortion.
What happens?
Do you think she might get counselling? She might get an abortion? She might get justice for the crime which has been committed to her?
No!
If she is gangraped, a whole night long: she must have been at fault!
So she should be punished!
She gets locked up in prison! A whole year long! She is not allowed an abortion! She is sentenced to torture: 100 lashes! All in the name of Islam and Allah, the just, the mercifull….. And the rapists?
No punishment is mentioned. After all they are men, they can’t help themselves.
Why should they get punished for what is a woman’s fault? Believe it or not, It could be worse… In Iran a young girl got stoned to death for the crime of being raped…
She got stuck in a hole and men threw stones at her until she died.
All in the name of Islam and Allah, the just, the merciful …
A senior Muslim cleric who runs the country's largest network of sharia courts has sparked controversy by claiming that there is no such thing as rape within marriage.
Sheikh Maulana Abu Sayeed, president of the Islamic Sharia Council in Britain, said that men who rape their wives should not be prosecuted because "sex is part of marriage". And he claimed that many married women who alleged rape were lying.
His comments have angered senior police officers, who say that such statements undermine the work they do to encourage women to report rape, a notoriously under-reported crime.
Sheikh Sayeed made the comments in an interview with the blog The Samosa, before reiterating them later when contacted by The Independent.
He told the website: "Clearly there cannot be any rape within the marriage. Maybe aggression, maybe indecent activity... Because when they got married, the understanding was that sexual intercourse was part of the marriage, so there cannot be anything against sex in marriage. Of course, if it happened without her desire, that is no good, that is not desirable."
Later he told this newspaper: "In Islamic sharia, rape is adultery by force. So long as the woman is his wife, it cannot be termed as rape. It is reprehensible, but we do not call it rape."
British law was changed in 1991, making rape within marriage illegal.
Dave Whatton, Chief Constable of Cheshire and spokesman on rape for the Association of Chief Police Officers, said: "We know that the majority of rapes do not take place through strangers attacking women late at night but between acquaintances and within marriages and partnerships.
"It is a fundamental principle that sharia law should not replace the laws of the UK. Putting out views that rape can be dealt with in another way fundamentally undermines everything we are trying to do."
The cleric's comments come just days after Germaine Greer suggested that rape victims should name and shame their attackers online instead of reporting it to the police.
Mr Whatton added: "The comments of Sheikh Sayeed and Germaine Greer suggest there are other ways of dealing with rape. If that happens, victims of rape do not get the medical and counselling support they need to overcome this traumatic experience – and we are not in a position to effectively prosecute offenders."
In the interview on the website, Sheikh Sayeed suggests that women who claim to have been raped by their husbands should not immediately go to the police, saying: "Not in the beginning, unless we establish that it really happened. Because in most of the cases, wives... have been advised by their solicitors that one of the four reasons for which a wife can get a divorce is rape, so they are encouraged to say things like this."
Sheikh Sayeed said the Islamic Sharia Council had only dealt with two or three cases of rape since the arbitration tribunal was founded in 1982. Asked about how men who are found to have forced themselves upon their wives were punished, he explained: "He may be disciplined, and he may be made to ask forgiveness. That should be enough."
Inayat Bunglawala, chairman of Muslims4UK, said: "Sheikh Sayeed's comments are woefully misguided and entirely inappropriate. Rape – whether within marriage or outside it – is an abominable act and is clearly against the law."
A WOMAN, COVERED head-to-toe in a black veil, appeared on Egyptian television this summer to drop a bombshell: two policemen, she said, had raped her.
It’s unclear if she normally wears the niqab, the face veil, or if it served to protect her anonymity. But there was no doubt that her allegation served as a sledgehammer to strike two of Egypt’s sorest spots of late: sexual assault and police brutality.
The latter has been the subject of outcry and unprecedented protest since Khaled Said, a young businessman, died on June 6 from what his family and witnesses say was a police beating. Two plainclothes police officers went on trial on July 27, charged with illegal arrest and excessive force.
Standing up to the police in a country that’s been under emergency law for 29 years comes with considerable risk. Said’s family says he was targeted after posting an online video allegedly showing police sharing the profit of a drug bust.
Reporting rape anywhere is difficult but in Egypt’s conservative culture, women keep quiet rather than risk arousing blame or humiliation, and at times rape again at a police station. In some cases, they risk being killed by a relative to rid the family of shame.
“I am sacrificing my reputation by telling the story… to protect every girl, every woman who may trust a police van. I tell them now, if you see a police van, you must be very careful,” she said. “I want the officials to know what policemen do to the people. Even now, I still can’t believe or comprehend that these were policemen.”
Her lawyer told the TV station a police investigation had recognized that the rape took place but didn’t identify the attackers as policemen. It’s unclear how her case has proceeded. Assailants in rape cases face sentences ranging from three years to life imprisonment. Marital rape is not illegal in Egypt.
Some 20,000 rapes are reported in Egypt each year, according to a state-run research center. But that figure is said to represent just 10 percent of the total number of victims. When I was a reporter in Cairo, psychiatrists were my source for information on sexual assaults. They are the ones rape survivors went to for help to cope.
Sexual assaults have been surfacing for a while, often with a background of police ineptitude or compliance. In 2005, hundreds of Egyptians staged an angry protest against the sexual harassment and assault of female activists and reporters by suspected government supporters. The women said police and security forces stood by, some shouting orders during the assaults.
Sexual assaults in downtown Cairo during a religious festival in 2006 forced Egypt to confront the consequences of its unchecked sexual harassment. Women said police did nothing as men tore off their clothes and headscarves, groping them and in some cases trying to rape them during the festival. The Interior Ministry denied the assaults even took place.
Bloggers at the scene posted photographs and videos of the assaults, pushing them onto the headlines and forcing a long-overdue reckoning. A number of draft laws dealing with sexual harassment are under consideration by Parliament but there is still nothing on Egypt’s statute books that specifically prohibits street harassment.
Later this year, a volunteer-run private venture, HarassMap, will be launched that will allow women to report street sexual harassment by sending an SMS to a centralized computer. They will receive a reply offering support and practical advice, and the reports will be used to build up a detailed and publicly available map of harassment hot spots that activists hope will shame authorities into taking greater action.
Attitudes toward rape across the Arab world generally are abysmal. The stigma – and often the law – is much harsher on the woman than on the rapist.
Two cases notorious for their miscarriage of justice clearly illustrate why most women who are raped keep quiet. In 2007, a Saudi woman who reported being gang-raped was sentenced to 200 lashes and imprisonment for being alone with a man. After an international outcry, the Saudi king pardoned her.
In June, a court in Abu Dhabi sentenced an 18-year-old Emirati woman to a year in prison for illicit sex after she reported that six men had gang-raped her. The court said that by agreeing to go for a drive with a male friend, a 19-year-old military police officer, she had consented to having sex with him.
The woman in niqab on Egyptian television understood the magnitude of what she was doing. Her tearful TV segment, which has gone viral on YouTube, stands to become as iconic as the harrowing footage in 2006 of policemen sodomizing bus driver Emad Kabir with a stick. Two bloggers posted that footage and two of the policemen were sentenced to three years in jail. Kabir’s testimony helped break the taboo around male rape in police custody.
The woman in niqab is helping break a taboo too, but neither she nor Egypt is ready for her to do so as publicly as Kabir, whose name we know and whose face was clearly visible as he screamed in pain in the footage of his rape.
All we know of the woman in niqab is that she is a grandmother.
She told that to the police she accuses of raping her as she pleaded with them to stop.
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And what about womens' needs? Just because Mr Al Munajjid couldn't care less about womens' needs he assumes God doesn't either. Big mistake imo ...
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. Nor am I encouraging women to drug and rape their husbands, So Ladies NEVER DO THIS AT HOME!!
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