This is topic Should he forsake his family who reject the Sunnah? in forum Religion at EgyptSearch Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002764

---

Posted by sultan.org(In Makka ) (Member # 10368) on :
 
Question:
If a person's family rejects the necessity of following anything that's in hadeeth at all, and says you can follow only the Qur'an, can you give them salaams and say "Eid Mubarak" to them to reduce fitnah and not make them upset?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Every Muslim has to believe in all the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) – if they are saheeh – and not reject any of them, because his ahaadeeth and his Sunnah are revelation (wahy) from Allaah. Whoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has rejected revelation from Allaah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“By the star when it goes down (or vanishes).

Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only a Revelation revealed.

He has been taught (this Qur’aan) by one mighty in power [Jibreel (Gabriel)].

One free from any defect in body and mind then he (Jibreel — Gabriel in his real shape as created by Allaah) rose and became stable”

[al-Najm 53:1-6]

Allaah has commanded the people to obey His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He has enjoined this in many verses of the Qur’aan, of which we will quote some. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muhammad): “Obey Allaah and the Messenger (Muhammad).” But if they turn away, then Allaah does not like the disbelievers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:32]

“He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them”

[al-Nisa’ 4:80]

“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”

[al-Nisa’ 4:59]

“And perform As‑Salaah (Iqaamat‑as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) that you may receive mercy (from Allaah)”
[al-Noor 24:56]

And there are many similar verses.

The one who rejects the Sunnah is a kaafir and an apostate.

Al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his essay Miftaah al-Jannah fi Ihtijaaj bi’l-Sunnah:

Note that whoever denies that the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), whether it describes his words or deeds, so long as it meets the conditions outlined by the scholars, may be quoted as evidence, is a kaafir and has gone beyond the pale of Islam; he will be gathered with the Jews and the Christians or whomever Allaah wills among the kaafir sects [i.e., on the Day of Resurrection].

Those who want to restrict themselves to the Qur’aan only are called al-Qur’aaniyyoon. This view of theirs is an old view which the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned against in more than one hadeeth, as we shall see below. Among the soundest evidence that this view is false is the fact that those who say this do not really follow what they say.

How do these people pray? How many times do they pray each day and night? What are the conditions and details of zakaah? What is the nisaab (threshold of wealth) for paying zakaah? What is the amount that must be paid? How do they do Hajj and ‘Umrah? How many times do they circumambulate the Ka’bah? How many times do they go back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah?

There are many other issues the details of which are not narrated in the Qur’aan, rather they are mentioned in the Qur’aan in general terms, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained them in detail in his Sunnah.

Would these people refrain from acting upon these rulings because they are not narrated in the Qur’aan?

If their answer is yes, then they have passed judgement against themselves that they are kaafirs, because they have denied a basic principle of Islam that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing and on which there is unanimous consensus among the Muslims.

If they reply that they do not refrain from following these rulings, then they have demonstrated that their view is false.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said – after quoting the verses that enjoin following the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) –

These texts enjoin following the Messenger even if we do not find what he said specifically referred to in the texts of the Qur’aan. These verses also enjoin following the Qur’aan even if we do not find what is said in the Qur’aan specifically mentioned in the hadeeth of the Messenger.

So we must follow the Qur’aan and we must follow the Messenger. Following the one implies following the other, for the Messenger conveyed the Book, and the Book commands us to follow the Messenger. The Book and the Messenger do not contradict one another at all, just as the Book does not contradict itself. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

And there are many ahaadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which state that it is obligatory to follow the Qur’aan and that it is obligatory to follow his Sunnah, for example, the hadeeth in which he said: “I do not want to find any one of you reclining on his pillow, and when he hears of something that I have commanded or forbidden, he says, ‘Between us and you there stands this Qur’aan, whatever we find is permissible in it we will take as permissible, and whatever we find is forbidden in it we will take as forbidden.’ For I have been given the Book and something like it with it; it is like the Qur’aan or more.” This hadeeth is narrated in the books of Sunan and Musnad from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with a number of isnads from Abu Tha’labah, Abu Raafi’, Abu Hurayrah and others.

In Saheeh Muslim is it narrated from Jaabir that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said in his Farewell Sermon: “I am leaving behind among you something which, if you adhere to it, you will not go astray after that. It is the Book of Allaah.” The version narrated by al-Haakim says “The Book of Allaah and my Sunnah.” (Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2937).

In al-Saheeh it is narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi Awfa that it was said to him: Did the Messenger of Allaah leave a will? He said, No. It was said, How then is it prescribed for people to make wills when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not make a will? He said, He made a will in which he enjoined (adherence to) the Book of Allaah.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1634)

The Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah explains the Qur’aan, as it explains the number of prayers, how much should be recited in them, which should be recited out loud and which quietly. It also explains the amounts of zakaah to be paid and the threshold at which zakaah becomes due; the rituals of Hajj and ‘Umrah; how many times one should circumambulate the Ka’bah, go between al-Safa and al-Marwah and stone the Jamaraat, etc.

When any Sunnah is proven to be saheeh, the Muslims are agreed that it is obligatory to follow it. There may be something in the Sunnah which a person thinks appears to go against the apparent meaning of the Qur’aan and add to it, such as the Sunnah which explains the threshold of stealing at which the hadd punishment becomes due, and the Sunnah which stipulates that the married adulterer is to be stoned. This Sunnah must also be followed, according to the view of the Sahaabah and those who followed them in truth, and all the groups of Muslims.

Adapted from Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 19/84-86

That which was brought by the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is true just as the Qur’aan is true.

Secondly:

You should not forsake your family; rather you should treat them kindly and strive to call them to follow and accept the Sunnah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”

[al-Nahl 16:125]

“And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years give thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination.

But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not; but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience. Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do”

[Luqmaan 31:14-15]

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 
Sultan, have you already discovered this? I'm sure it will give you countless ideas for new cut-and-pastes.

Combat Kit To Use Against the "Quran Only" Muslims


 

---

Posted by sultan.org(In Makka ) (Member # 10368) on :
 
Thank you
Good luck
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):

There are many other issues the details of which are not narrated in the Qur’aan

---

Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
[6:114]

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
[12:111]  

A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know.
[41:3]  

And there is no creature on the earth, nor a bird flying with its two wings, but they are communities like you; We have not neglected anything in the Book; then to their Lord they shall be mustered.
[6:38]

The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[6:115]

We have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.
[18:54]  


Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."
[18:109]  

If all the trees on earth were made into pens, and the ocean supplied the ink, augmented by seven more oceans, the words of GOD would not run out. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[31:27]  

And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily in it is Mercy and Reminder to those who believe. 
[29:51]
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”

[al-Nahl 16:125]

016.125
YUSUFALI: Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

there is a difference in your verse and mine, I have put in bold.

Firstly this alters the meaning of the verse, the added bit

and secondly, what do you mean by Devine revelation AND the Quran??

The Devine Revelation IS Quran. I am having trouble expressing what I want to say to you here, how dare you? How dare you add words that make insinuations that there was a devine revelation given to Muhammed OTHER than Quran when as Dalia has clearly shown Quran speaks of this itself!!! Fully detailed, nothing neglected and YOU want me to believe the devine revelation was something else?? something not written, collected or passed on during the life of Muhammed when all he did was pass on Quran, thats all he was required to do, pass on the message.

sultan i am so angry i cant express myself, i could spit, i better shut up
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”
...

there is a difference in your verse and mine, I have put in bold.

this alters the meaning of the verse, the added bit

---

Interesting!

The word used in the Arabic version of this verse is hekma (7ekma). According to my, admittedly very limited, knowledge of Classical Arabic it comes from the root "ha-ka-ma" and is the plural of "hekam", which means "wisdom, intelligence, philosophy" etc. A "hakem", for example, is a wise person, a philosopher, doctor and so on.

Interpreting this word to mean "divine revelation and the Qur'an" does not seem to make any sense at all.


As I said, I don't know Arabic well, so if there's a mistake in what I just wrote I'd appreciate input from native speakers.
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

[URL=http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/combat_kit_for_muslims.htm

---

thumb up
 

---

Posted by necromancer (Member # 12656) on :
 
How do you know how to pray using the Quran alone?

The quran repeatedly mentions the word worship. The definition of worship is here

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship

note: honor, venerate, revere, adore, glorify, idolize, adulate.

Nowhere in this definition does it mention pray.
That is because worship and prayer are not the same thing

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pray

So the Quran tells us to WORSHIP.
You can pray to something that you worship, but you would not pray to money would you?
Therefore if God repeatedly tells us to worship it means worship!! it is that simple.
Praying is another thing altogether.


How do you know how much Zakaah to pay using the Quran alone?

Okay so that means that every moslem pays exactly this?
No!!!! what about children, invalids, the poor. orphans............it is not set in stone is it?


Hadn't the Quran been reached to us from the same sources we received our authentic hadith?

No Quran is divine revelation from God and Gabriel.
Hadith is heresay. Remember 700.000 hadith were wittled down to 1% which were reliable!!!! What was the percentage of Quran which was wittled down?

Why would Allah preserve the Quran and not preserve the meaning?

Is the Quran so hard to understand for moslems? Is it really a puzzle? that has to have 1% heresay explain it, and which at times contradicts it?
Seriously is Allah concerned if we breathe into a glass whilst drinking for it ( hadith)?

How much is the Jizyah that the People of the Book have to pay?
Where is the treasury, the accounts, the statements from their bank accounts? How many christians and jews pay in egypt?

Does the Quran say that cross dressing is haram?

Define cross dressing?
Male moslems wear galabeya!! , head scarves, this would be considered female dress in many western countries. Female moslems wear trousers, shirts, teeshirts, jeans etc. Does that make them cross dressers?
Most moslem women wear 'plenty' make up, is that not haram?
They all use soaps, moisturizers, perfumes.
So define cross dressing in the context of the Quran.

The Quran says that men could beat up their wives. But we know according to hadith that this is a spiritual beating and not a harmful physical. What is to stop a man from misinterpreting the Quran and beating the hell out of his wife?
Untrue!!!! Hadith says you can beat lightly with a stick!!!
This is not spiritual!! even if it is with a toothpick and it touches the other person constitutes physical!
Spiritual does not involve the sensation of touch

phys·i·cal (fĭz'ĭ-kəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1.
1. Of or relating to the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit. See Synonyms at bodily.
2. Involving or characterized by vigorous bodily activity: a physical dance performance.
3. Slang Involving or characterized by violence: "A real cop would get physical" (TV Guide).


Is it permissible for a man to look at a naked man?

Yes!!! it is!!
All over the world men look at naked men!
In doctors surgeries and hospitals all over the world. Literally look at them!
Should we take it that this should stop?

Now looking at a naked man with lust is something very different!


Can I pray Salaah naked?

Yes, you can pray salh any way you please as if you were naked in the middle of the desert, or boat in an ocean where you would not offend anyone then I am pretty sure that Allah would accept that prayer. You are of course praying to him and that is really what matters, not how, or where you do it.
 

---

Posted by necromancer (Member # 12656) on :
 
Do you think that Egypt pop: 98% moslem is an islamic society?
Do you think that the citizens follow the Quran and its message?

or do you think that the 98% do follow the ritual ( hadith)?

If you think that they follow the Quran you would find that you have a society with no corruption, no theft, no sexualization, with respect for women and men, a caring nurturing community, bent on giving each other their rights, caring for animals and property, clean, respectable hard working honest people.

Do you recognise Egypt in the above? are you picturing Cairo in your head?


I doubt it.
You have a society with 98% moslems, a mosque on every corner, men dropping to their knees in the streets in prayer, attending friday prayer, but the moment the ( hadith taught and enlightened) prayer ritual is over, is a self centered, greedy, rude, vain, corrupt nation, lacking in basic manners who can recite the Quran perfectly but have no idea of what the words actually mean.

Now take the quran alone, follow it, forget the recitation and singing and playing of surah's on the tape recorder and get an idea of its message and apply it.

That my friend is very simple to do.

Its not about how many rakas you do.

Its about humanity and realising that at the end of the day your actions will determine your key to the gates of paradise.
We dont need a further 1% heresay to explain the 10 commandments.
If you can tie your shoe laces, you can understand the Quran.
 

---

Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by necromancer:
Do you think that Egypt pop: 98% moslem is an islamic society?
Do you think that the citizens follow the Quran and its message?

or do you think that the 98% do follow the ritual ( hadith)?

If you think that they follow the Quran you would find that you have a society with no corruption, no theft, no sexualization, with respect for women and men, a caring nurturing community, bent on giving each other their rights, caring for animals and property, clean, respectable hard working honest people.

Do you recognise Egypt in the above? are you picturing Cairo in your head?


I doubt it.
You have a society with 98% moslems, a mosque on every corner, men dropping to their knees in the streets in prayer, attending friday prayer, but the moment the ( hadith taught and enlightened) prayer ritual is over, is a self centered, greedy, rude, vain, corrupt nation, lacking in basic manners who can recite the Quran perfectly but have no idea of what the words actually mean.

Now take the quran alone, follow it, forget the recitation and singing and playing of surah's on the tape recorder and get an idea of its message and apply it.

That my friend is very simple to do.

Its not about how many rakas you do.

Its about humanity and realising that at the end of the day your actions will determine your key to the gates of paradise.
We dont need a further 1% heresay to explain the 10 commandments.
If you can tie your shoe laces, you can understand the Quran.

---

I appreciate your post! You said everything I believe.
 

---

Posted by necromancer (Member # 12656) on :
 
Thank you humanist.
I think that any one capable of thought, of analysing these hadith, of being able to separate religion form culture would agree to.
But unfortunately moslems are encouraged not to think or to question.
That is their downfall and that is why they are behind other nations.
That is why it is impossible to trust in Egypt. Trust does not exist. Lying is commonplace, accepted even.
That is why every movement of any stranger in your home has to be watched, why no one trusts anyone.

Tell me Mr Sultan

Why is it that most egyptians are walking about with both hands when the punishment for theft is cutting of the hand?
I would expect a nation of limbless tongueless citizens. If the tongue was to be cut out for lying.


 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
Quran

4-113 Had not the Grace of Allah and His Mercy been upon you (O Muhammad SAW), a party of them would certainly have made a decision to mislead you, but (in fact) they mislead none except their own selves, and no harm can they do to you in the least. Allah has sent down to you the Book (The Quran), and AlHikmah (Islamic laws, knowledge of legal and illegal things i.e. the Prophets Sunnah - legal ways), and taught you that which you knew not. And Ever Great is the Grace of Allah unto you (O Muhammad SAW).
mohsin khan
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 
Please see my post above and explain to me why you translate "hekma" as "the prophet's sunna"? Isn't that a particular interpretation rather than a translation?


 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
batman what sura is that please?
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:


The word used in the Arabic version of this verse is hekma (7ekma). According to my, admittedly very limited, knowledge of Classical Arabic it comes from the root "ha-ka-ma" and is the plural of "hekam", which means "wisdom, intelligence, philosophy" etc. A "hakem", for example, is a wise person, a philosopher, doctor and so on.

---

quote:

---

batman what sura is that please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
حكمة in the quraaan means Sunna

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):

If AlHikmah is not the prophet Sunna, what will it be?

---

quote:

---

It doesn't need translation or dictionaries. It only needs only thinking and contemplating.

---

Well, if I think and contemplate on the verses that contain the word "hekma" I don't see how it could mean "sunna". So what do we do now?

Also -- if we don't need translations or dictionaries, then how did you come up with "sunna" in the first place? I know you don't read Arabic, so obviously you must have formed your opinion after reading a translation or an interpretation, no? You certainly didn't arrive at that conclusion after thinking and contemplating about the original text!


Btw, I find it strange that none of the native Arabic speakers around here has been willing to answer my questions which were serious.


 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran. If AlHikmah is not the prophet Sunna, what will it be?
It doesn't need translation or dictionaries. It only needs only thinking and contemplating.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
as sunnah is an Arabic word if Allah had MEANT sunnah there instead of hekma he would have said it, so you are correcting Allah batman??

---

dudette
Quran is interpretted by arabic language the arabic language is describtive and metaphorically

the wisedom is a metaphor for Hadith. because Sunna is the wisedom of the prophet

Go figure
 

---

Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
 
Go figure what? wake up! The Muslim world is in terrible shape because of people with YOUR MENTALITY...you and your type have sold out your religon and your people.

You'll find out one day that you had it all wrong.
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by humanist:
you and your type have sold out your religon and your people.
You'll find out one day that you had it all wrong.

---

 

---

Posted by sheba76 (Member # 12165) on :
 

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran. If AlHikmah is not the prophet Sunna, what will it be?
It doesn't need translation or dictionaries. It only needs only thinking and contemplating.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this contradicts everything you have previously said about how we DO need hadith do interpret Quran!!

---

This is the kind of stuff that confuses me Sultan. Want to explain?

I'm soooooooo confused. lol
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
It doesn't need translation or dictionaries. It only needs only thinking and contemplating.

---

Well, if I think and contemplate on the verses that contain the word "hekma" I don't see how it could mean "sunna". So what do we do now?

Also -- if we don't need translations or dictionaries, then how did you come up with "sunna" in the first place? I know you don't read Arabic, so obviously you must have formed your opinion after reading a translation or an interpretation, no? You certainly didn't arrive at that conclusion after thinking and contemplating about the original text!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:

حكمة in the quraaan means Sunna



the wisedom is a metaphor for Hadith. because Sunna is the wisedom of the prophet

Go figure

---

Well, I did go and do a root search for hakama yesterday, and I came across several verses that use the word حكمة / hekma. I can see that -- if you're intent on doing so -- you might interpret *hekma* as *sunna* in particular verses where it's used in conjunction with Mohammed. However, the word is used throughout the Qur'an, and in some verses it would not make any sense at all to translate it as *hadith* or *sunna*. I think that makes your theory very unlikely.


Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom.
Am yahsudoona alnnasaAAala ma atahumu Allahu min fadlihifaqad atayna ala ibraheema alkitabawaalhikmata waataynahum mulkan AAatheeman
[4:54]


"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel
WayuAAallimuhu alkitaba waalhikmatawaalttawrata waal-injeela
[3:48]


By Allah's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not Allah Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.
Fahazamoohum bi-ithni Allahiwaqatala dawoodu jaloota waatahu Allahualmulka waalhikmata waAAallamahu mimma yashaowalawla dafAAu Allahi alnnasa baAAdahumbibaAAdin lafasadati al-ardu walakinna Allahathoo fadlin AAala alAAalameena
[2:251]


We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him wisdom and sound judgment in speech and decision.
Washadadna mulkahu waataynahualhikmata wafasla alkhitabi
[38:20]
(This is referring to David.)


 
"This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
Thalika natloohu AAalayka mina al-ayatiwaalththikri alhakeemi
[3:58]


Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident
Ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa ibna maryama othkur niAAmatee AAalaykawaAAala walidatika ith ayyadtuka biroohialqudusi tukallimu alnnasa fee almahdi wakahlanwa-ith AAallamtuka alkitaba waalhikmatawaalttawrata waal-injeela wa-ithtakhluqu mina altteeni kahay-ati alttayribi-ithnee fatanfukhu feeha fatakoonu tayranbi-ithnee watubri-o al-akmaha waal-abrasabi-ithnee wa-ith tukhriju almawta bi-ithneewa-ith kafaftu banee isra-eela AAanka ithji/tahum bialbayyinati faqala allatheenakafaroo minhum in hatha illa sihrun mubeenun
[5:110]


Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.magic.'
OdAAu ila sabeeli rabbika bialhikmatiwaalmawAAithati alhasanati wajadilhumbiallatee hiya ahsanu inna rabbaka huwa aAAlamubiman dalla AAan sabeelihi wahuwa aAAlamu bialmuhtadeena
[16:125]


 
Mature wisdom; but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not.
Hikmatun balighatun famatughnee alnnuthuru
[54:5]


www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
Allah said,

﴿فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِى شَىْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ﴾

((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger). Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes.



59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

59 O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.

wat about this ya dahlia?
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
ayisha where r yaaaaaaaaa?
 

---

Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
ayisha where r yaaaaaaaaa?

---

I pictured Batman calling for Ayisha like Rocky does for Adrienne in the original movie. 'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadrienne'.
'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayisha'.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
i'm here Batman, did you miss me?
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
ayisha where r yaaaaaaaaa?

---

I pictured Batman calling for Ayisha like Rocky does for Adrienne in the original movie. 'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadrienne'.
'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayisha'.

---

i pictured u swya
lol

ayisha yes i missed u u gave up ES-ing?
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
no batman, im reading but am very busy these days and cant get enthusiastic about arguing with you and others like you, bit like banging your head against a wall really, its nice when you stop
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
no batman, im reading but am very busy these days and cant get enthusiastic about arguing with you and others like you, bit like banging your head against a wall really, its nice when you stop

---

dudette u cant win arguemnt wiz cavemen/buttyman
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
no batman, im reading but am very busy these days and cant get enthusiastic about arguing with you and others like you, bit like banging your head against a wall really, its nice when you stop

---

dudette u cant win arguemnt wiz cavemen/buttyman

---

exactly batman, no chance to win an arguement with someone who cant answer a simple question and has the brain of a neanderthal
 

---

Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
ayisha where r yaaaaaaaaa?

---

I pictured Batman calling for Ayisha like Rocky does for Adrienne in the original movie. 'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadrienne'.
'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayisha'.

---

i pictured u swya
lol

ayisha yes i missed u u gave up ES-ing?

---

Dude, have you been hacking my account and stealing my pic? This is the second time that has happened recently.

PS: LOL @ 'Buttyman'
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

Why aren't you answering the question, sultan? If you came up with your interpretation by thinking and contemplating, why can't you explain your thought process?

And please tell us which text exactly you contemplated on if you were not using a translation or a dictionary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sheba76:

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran. If AlHikmah is not the prophet Sunna, what will it be?
It doesn't need translation or dictionaries. It only needs only thinking and contemplating.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this contradicts everything you have previously said about how we DO need hadith do interpret Quran!!

---

This is the kind of stuff that confuses me Sultan. Want to explain?

---

 

---

Posted by welsafty (Member # 5051) on :
 
Although it is a tricky matter to talk about, the following of Habit in Sahih Bukhari, and Muslim blandly is not a requirement for every Muslim, the article is attacking those who take Quran as their highest source of law, and accuse them of being quranyeen, and describe them with incomplete faith, is such ugly allegation someone have to respond to.
It is very strange to always hear someone Pushing some hadith on me, and forcing me top accept its interpretation according to a book written by a man, and telling me how dare you think twice about what the elders have already discussed before, , how dare you deny the power of Sahih muslim and Sahih bukhari, and furthermore, telling me HOW dare you reject the words of Prophet Mohamed,
I get this all the time, the words of prophet Mohamed are complementary to Quran, and as powerful as Quran itself, and the notion that those who rely on Quran solely do reject the hadith is very strange , as if all Muslims decide to remove the power of Quran and replace it with those 2 other books, or allege that the power of Quran can only be substantiated with those 2 man made books. Mumbling verses in Quran in my face REMINDING ME that prophet Mohamed “Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
It is only a Revelation revealed. He has been taught (this Qur’an) by one mighty in power [Jibreel (Gabriel)].” [al-Najm 53:1-6] as if any one is denying that at all, if you USE your brain to think then you are not following the orders of Quran, just because some scholars have put an effort to collect hadith and make sure it is correct hadith , doesn’t mean that the book is bullet proof, it is still a man made book, and it is still human effort, I don’t recall any verse in Quran that promised us the correctness of the Sahih, either Bukhari or Muslim, with all respect for those 2 scholars and the great effort they have put to collect the hadith and remove all the bad hadith they found,
No doubt the method they have used to guarantee the correctness of those hadith, are sound and solid, and I have to respect and appreciate, but still the Sahih is only called sahih by other scholars, the prophet haven’t called it sahih, and Allah haven’t made it holly , and did not promises its preservation,

The [prophet have said “those who lie on my behalf should expect their seats in FIRE] if Bukhari and Muslim have absolutely succeeded in eliminating all the wrong hadith , this would make this habit I just mention, worthless, because there will be no lies told, the hadith was meant for all man kind in all ages, and for me that means that there will be always lies being told on the behalf of the prophet (PBUH)
He also said, “ if you ware told something on my behalf , examine it with Quran, if it differs from Quran, then through it out, because it isn’t coming from me“

Quran constantly reminds us the importance of thinking about the verses, within, and ordering us to go through it and analyze it,” these are verses for people who understand”, “these are verses for those with brains” “those are verses for people who always think”
ان في ذلك لايات لقوم يعقلون ....... ان في ذلك لايات لأولو الاباب, ان في ذلك لايات لقوم يتفكرون , الا فليتدبرون القران
Those are direct orders from Allah to use the brilliant gift he have bestowed upon us, not to put it aside and depend on what others have said, Quran never asked us to put logic aside and follow someone else’s logic,
The Sahihs and hadith books we can find in any book store have many things that my conscious cannot accept as the words of prophet Mohamed, therefore I have not only reject those hadith, but also be skeptical about any other hadith mentioned, unless it makes since to me,
For example,
Narrated Abu Huraira: "Abraham (A.I) did not tell a lie except on three occasions. [...] (Sahih Al- Bukhari, Vol.4, Hadith No 578, Translation by Dr. Muhsan Khan).
Wow, prophet Mohamed (PBUH) is calling prophet Abraham (PBUH)
Haven’t Quran told us about those prophet, and told us how they ware , how could I accept that the messenger of God is violating such a moral constraint such as lying, the teaching of Islam is all about being truthful with one self and with other, so how come the father of all prophets is not truthful ?
Haven’t Quran told us that all messengers are equal, and ofcourse if I accepted that prophet Ibrahim lied, then why not accept that prophet Moses commuted the mistake of murdering an innocent sole, and why not accept also that prophet yousif was about to commit adultery, prophet and why don’t I accept that prophet Mohamed was rude to the blind man,
Didn’t Quran told us about prophet Mohamed’s great manners,
And you are indeed with great superiour manners “ , انك لعلي خلق عظيم
And if you ware rude or thick hearted they would have walked away from you ان كت فظا غليظ القلب لانفضو من حولك
And we have sent you but a mercy for all man kind وما ارسلناك الا رحمة للعالمين
and in hadith itself, prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said “ My god have deepened, me and he deepened it well” ادبني ربي فاحسن تاديبي
how could I after all this accept the interpretation of Surah “abas” as an indication of prophet Mohamed bad manners, and how can I accept the hadith pf prophet Mohamed greeting the blind man with “Welcome to the man Allah have roughed me up about”

how can I accept the hadith that makes gold and silk unlawful to Men (AND MEN ONLY), and neglect Quran order to all Muslims to take their best garments to mosques,
Beautification and elegance are not merely permitted but are required by Islam, and in general it repudiates any attempts to prohibit them. Say: Who has forbidden the adornment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants, and the good things of His providing? (7:32)
and the same verse that is disputing the unlawfulness of the good things Allah have created for us, and that those garments “zinah” was initially created for the sake of the believers and promises that it will be pure to us in heaven.
The verse following this one explains more, “ say that My lord have only made unlawful the evil deeds visible and invisible, and to say about Allah what you do not know of”
How can I accept the hadith of prophet muhamed “take your religion after this redfaced (aisha) “ خذو دينكم عن هذة الحميراء , or “talk half your relegon after this red faced”خذو نصف دينكم عن هذة الحميراء and neglect the hadith that sais “ no nation succeeds if they give their lead to a woman لا يفلح قوم ولو امرهم امراءة and how can I neglect that “they are in complete in mind and religion ناقصات عقل و دين

I can go on and on about Hadith that contradict other hadith , or hadith that even contradict Quran, it is only wise for any Muslim to be most careful when he accept a hadith as being sahih , and not follow others blindly just because someone have a refrence to hadith doesn’t make the hadith correct, specially if it conflict with Quran,

Those who follow blindly without thinking have been mentioned in Quran as those who said “this is how we found our parents”. Even qith quran , I will not take the interpretation of any one unless I thinkn about it first,
For Quranyoon the ultimate reference is the quaint text, the text is fixed, and interpretation isn’t , this is why Prophet Mohamed had his sunnah and hadith , not to COMPLETE what was missing in Quran, but to clarify it is simple manner for us,

Those who say the only way for Muslims to know how many prayers to pray a day, and how, and how much is zakah, could have not been found in Quran, forgetting one important verse in Quran, “ and we have not neglected a thing in the book” وما فرطنا في الكتاب من شيئ
And just because us as humans have limited knowledge, and very narrow understanding of Quran , and some of us insist of interpreting Quran word by word, and treating it only as a history book, and forget that Quran is a whole package is more than sufficient , neglecting that the key to interpret of one verse exist in another one, and that verses of Quran are all linked to each other,
This is why we needed someone to point out and clarify what we cannot understand on our own, NOT BECAUSE IT WAS NOT IN QURAN, we are just too blind to see it without help

Alott of this hadith has talked about the prophets and instead of helping us understand how important they ware not only in the past, but still to our own daily life, instead, we have accepted hadiths that defys the logic of quran, to be embedded with other hadith , and we have became accustome to accept anything when someone say oh it is in bukhari, bukhari and Muslim after all ware only an ordinary humans who tried their best, but they ware not perfect , and the book they wrote, are not a reference but only the result of their efforts, and nothing is protecting their books from being altered or changed , intentionally or unintentionally, it is very strange the flood of Hadith told in what is known to be sunnah and hadith sahih, narrated by Abu horaira, comparing to hadiths narrated by Omar, or abu bakr, who ware not only closer to prophet Mohamed, but even accompanied him much longer than the 4 years Abu Horayra was Muslim before the departure of prophet Mohamed,
If you think about it, carefully you would find that if all the hadith attributed to Abu horayra, give us one indication, that this man have not done anything in his life except resisting hadith, and wouldn’t have had enough time to drink eat pray or even sleep.
Peace be upon prophet Mohamed, and his companions.

Isn’t it strange that all the hadith we have in the 2 sahih, when talking about prophets, every single one of them have committed a sin ? someone would say yes of course because god want us all to know they ware only humans, no one noticed that among all those hadiths telling us about the sins and mistakes committed by the prophets, not a single one by Prophet Jesus ? , what should I conclude from that is he really God, or the son of god like the Christians claim? ,,, yes I think this is the aim of all those bad hadiths we unfortunately find in the habit, to trick Muslims into undo their belief, and imbed ideas that will ultimately negate anything else the do.
If Allah said prophets are al equal, then where is Jesse’s sin? Nothing? Then maybe Muslims should reconsider. And start worshiping the cross instead of Allah himself
I am sorry I cannot accept that, and will not, and the only way I can do that is disagree with any hadith about prophet Mohamed that he even hinted about another prophet committing a sin. Non of them could lie, no one would murder, and no one would even think or attempt commuting adultery, or steel someone else’s wife, or deceive, anyone, any hadith that humiliate insults or discredit a prophet, any hadith that would insult my intelegenc, and any hadith that contradict another hadith or Quran, even if this hadith was in sahih bukhari or muslim ,
I will not accept hadiths that describe the “Buraq“the legendary creature that carried the prophet in his Israel and me3rag and neglect the verse in Quran that said “his heart was not deceived in what he have saw” a clear indication that the event was not physical but spiritual and the journey was not with the body regardless what anyone say, and how many books, because Quran have solved it for me in one word,

I will not accept Hadith that describe the comic saga of a debate between prophet Mohamed and Moses bargaining with God about how many prayers a Muslim should pray a day, and how was it reduced from 50 to 40 then 30 till it became only 5, simply because there is a verse in Quran that orders Muslims, to comply with their orders and turn there back from the infidels, if God have given the prophet an order, he wouldn’t have questioned God, and he would have complied immediately, and prophet mosses wouldn’t have put himself in a situation when he would be the one who advice against complying with Allahs orders, sounds more to me like a story that comes from the old testament than something that prophet mosses and Mohamed do in the pretense of Allah .
Then

You call me Quraneyan as if it was something wrong; I am prude to be Quranee and take Quran as my ultimate source.
I am proud to have the ability to think before I follow, and not be lead with the flock as if I was a cow being led to its slaughter, I use the gift Allah have given me wisely, so the day of judgment he wouldn’t tell me why have you wasted the gift I have given you
Yes my Lord, I heard, and I thought about what I heard, and I believed in you, and Obeyed, not because I was told “it is so… and you have to comply without thinking”, but because I took a long pause, and gave it a lot of thought, and found it in my heart, that this is the truth, Yes My God I didn’t say Quran is the legends of the forefather, Yes God, I have examined all the evidence and signs, I could find with the nature you have given me, and yes it does match everything pure you have created. And yes, I will not waste the gift, and will not make someone else think for me, because I know you will judge me based on what is in my heart and mind, and no one will take the blame for my mistakes except me,.
 

---

Posted by As Sihr (Member # 12656) on :
 
BRAVO MR WELSAFTY
BRAVO

 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
Welsafty, what a wonderful post. I hope now this has come from a 'real muslim' some people will learn to think.
 

---

Posted by LaZeeZ (Member # 10655) on :
 
I can't see any logical ground for those who reject the Sunnah to stand on but I do understand the frustration that made them go that way.
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:

why is it you all do not answer any questions??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

Why aren't you answering the question, sultan? If you came up with your interpretation by thinking and contemplating, why can't you explain your thought process?

And please tell us which text exactly you contemplated on if you were not using a translation or a dictionary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
My thinking
1- I think on the verse and I see it's sunna

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):

The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran. If AlHikmah is not the prophet Sunna, what will it be?

My thinking
1- I think on the verse and I see it's sunna

---

quote:

---

some verses don't really make sense if you replace "hikma" with "sunna"

---

wait
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
Quran

4-113 Had not the Grace of Allah and His Mercy been upon you (O Muhammad SAW), a party of them would certainly have made a decision to mislead you, but (in fact) they mislead none except their own selves, and no harm can they do to you in the least. Allah has sent down to you the Book (The Quran), and AlHikmah (Islamic laws, knowledge of legal and illegal things i.e. the Prophets Sunnah - legal ways), and taught you that which you knew not. And Ever Great is the Grace of Allah unto you (O Muhammad SAW).
mohsin khan

---

 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
Allah has sent down to you
1-the Book (The Quran), and

2-AlHikmah (Islamic laws, knowledge of legal and illegal things i.e. the Prophets Sunnah - legal ways), and taught you that which you knew not.


the interpretation betewwen () is the logic one we see
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
batman thats the whole point of this discussion! now we have gone full circle, AGAIN.

The bit thats ADDED to GODS words there is khans OWN words. OK?? understand that? what Dalia has said is that THAT ADDED bit is NOT what hikmah means IT MEANS WISDOM. So she has quite clearly shown you all those verses and changed where it originally said hikmah and put what YOU and Sultan are saying is the prophets sunnah just to show you that is NOT right.

I really dont know why I am bothering though.
 

---

Posted by homing pigeon (Member # 8039) on :
 
May I add my contribution to this thread, please?

(1) ALL translations of the quran are an approximation to the meaning of the quran. We dont say it is translation of the quran but translation of the meaning of quran. Bear this in mind.

(2) The Arabic word "hekma" which is literally translated as wisdom has been used to describe the quran metaphorically in Islamic literature. The basis for this is that the quran IS wise.

(3) The actual interpretation of this word in this verse according to Alkortoby is , indeed, wisdom, literally. He says that this verse was revealed in Mecca at a time where Allah ordered a truce with Quraysh. Altabary tafseer and ALgalaleen see that the word hekma refers to the quran only while Ibn Kathir explains that the word refers to the quran and the sunna.

So , actually, both interpretations are possible.

But you know, folks, why we are disagreeing? It's because we cannot reach an agreement about the content of the sunna. This is the danger. As long as we insist on crediting stories that are against any level of reason just because they're in Bukhari, we will continue to disagree.We come back to the point of how sacred is the text of Bukhari and muslim....and others.

If we could limit our concept to the definitive sunna for the purposes of the interpretation of this verse, at least, maybe we can reach a meeting point.
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
SUNNA N QURAN R REVEALED TO THE PROPHET
DENIAL OF SUNNA IS KUFR

YA HOMING
PROVIDE ME WITH UR REF SOURCE OF INTERPRETATION IN QURTBI AND IBN KATHIR
 

---

Posted by homing pigeon (Member # 8039) on :
 
www.reciter.org has the four tafseers. Who denied the sunna, Batman?
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
homing pigeon


ur source is corrupted or u dont read it well

ibn kathir
وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَهَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْهُمْ أَنْ يُضِلُّوكَ وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِنْ شَيْءٍ وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا

وقوله ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء وقال الإمام ابن أبي حاتم : أنبأنا هاشم بن القاسم الحراني فيما كتب إلي حدثنا محمد بن سلمة عن محمد بن إسحاق عن عاصم بن عمر بن قتادة الأنصاري عن أبيه عن جده قتادة بن النعمان وذكر قصة بني أبيرق فأنزل الله لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء يعني أسيد بن عروة وأصحابه يعني بذلك لما أثنوا على بني أبيرق ولاموا قتادة بن النعمان في كونه اتهمهم وهم صلحاء برآء ولم يكن الأمر كما أنهوه إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولهذا أنزل الله فصل القضية وجلاءها لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم امتن عليه بتأييده إياه في جميع الأحوال وعصمته له وما أنزل عليه من الكتاب وهو القرآن والحكمة وهي السنة " وعلمك ما لم تكن تعلم " أي قبل نزول ذلك عليك كقوله " وكذلك أوحينا إليك روحا من أمرك ما كنت تدري ما الكتاب " إلى آخر السورة وقال تعالى " وما كنت ترجو أن يلقى إليك الكتاب إلا رحمة من ربك " ولهذا قال وكان فضل الله عليك عظيما .
qurbi

وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ

ما بعد " لولا " مرفوع بالابتداء عند سيبويه , والخبر محذوف لا يظهر , والمعنى : " ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته " بأن نبهك على الحق , وقيل : بالنبوءة والعصمة .
لَهَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْهُمْ أَنْ يُضِلُّوكَ

عن الحق ; لأنهم سألوا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يبرئ ابن أبيرق من التهمة ويلحقها اليهودي , فتفضل الله عز وجل على رسوله عليه السلام بأن نبهه على ذلك وأعلمه إياه .
وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنْفُسَهُمْ

لأنهم يعملون عمل الضالين , فوباله لهم راجع عليهم .
وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِنْ شَيْءٍ

لأنك معصوم .
وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ

هذا ابتداء كلام . وقيل : الواو للحال , كقولك : جئتك والشمس طالعة , ومنه قول امرئ القيس : وقد أغتدي والطير في وكناتهما فالكلام متصل , أي ما يضرونك من شيء مع إنزال الله عليك القرآن .
وَالْحِكْمَةَ

القضاء بالوحي .
وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا

يعني من الشرائع والأحكام وكان فضله عليك كبيرا . و " تعلم " في موضع نصب ; لأنه خبر كان . وحذفت الضمة من النون للجزم , وحذفت الواو لالتقاء الساكنين .


homing plz if u dont know say u dont know
u say ibn kathir and qurbi say something not correct

shukran
thanks
 

---

Posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine (Member # 11915) on :
 
homing pigeon


ur source is corrupted or u dont read it well

ibn kathir
وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَهَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْهُمْ أَنْ يُضِلُّوكَ وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِنْ شَيْءٍ وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا

وقوله ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء وقال الإمام ابن أبي حاتم : أنبأنا هاشم بن القاسم الحراني فيما كتب إلي حدثنا محمد بن سلمة عن محمد بن إسحاق عن عاصم بن عمر بن قتادة الأنصاري عن أبيه عن جده قتادة بن النعمان وذكر قصة بني أبيرق فأنزل الله لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء يعني أسيد بن عروة وأصحابه يعني بذلك لما أثنوا على بني أبيرق ولاموا قتادة بن النعمان في كونه اتهمهم وهم صلحاء برآء ولم يكن الأمر كما أنهوه إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولهذا أنزل الله فصل القضية وجلاءها لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم امتن عليه بتأييده إياه في جميع الأحوال وعصمته له وما أنزل عليه من الكتاب وهو القرآن والحكمة وهي السنة " وعلمك ما لم تكن تعلم " أي قبل نزول ذلك عليك كقوله " وكذلك أوحينا إليك روحا من أمرك ما كنت تدري ما الكتاب " إلى آخر السورة وقال تعالى " وما كنت ترجو أن يلقى إليك الكتاب إلا رحمة من ربك " ولهذا قال وكان فضل الله عليك عظيما .
qurbi

وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ

ما بعد " لولا " مرفوع بالابتداء عند سيبويه , والخبر محذوف لا يظهر , والمعنى : " ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته " بأن نبهك على الحق , وقيل : بالنبوءة والعصمة .
لَهَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْهُمْ أَنْ يُضِلُّوكَ

عن الحق ; لأنهم سألوا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يبرئ ابن أبيرق من التهمة ويلحقها اليهودي , فتفضل الله عز وجل على رسوله عليه السلام بأن نبهه على ذلك وأعلمه إياه .
وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنْفُسَهُمْ

لأنهم يعملون عمل الضالين , فوباله لهم راجع عليهم .
وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِنْ شَيْءٍ

لأنك معصوم .
وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ

هذا ابتداء كلام . وقيل : الواو للحال , كقولك : جئتك والشمس طالعة , ومنه قول امرئ القيس : وقد أغتدي والطير في وكناتهما فالكلام متصل , أي ما يضرونك من شيء مع إنزال الله عليك القرآن .
وَالْحِكْمَةَ

القضاء بالوحي .
وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ تَعْلَمُ وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا

يعني من الشرائع والأحكام وكان فضله عليك كبيرا . و " تعلم " في موضع نصب ; لأنه خبر كان . وحذفت الضمة من النون للجزم , وحذفت الواو لالتقاء الساكنين .


homing plz if u dont know say u dont know
u say ibn kathir and qurbi say something not correct

shukran
thanks
 

---

Posted by homing pigeon (Member # 8039) on :
 
Batman, I thought you were looking at surat alnahl verse 125 which I saw in Ayisha's post. That is what my summary refers to. Please go review this and you will find that what I summarised was correct. Besides, you should have noticed that I said that the two interpretations were possible. I have no wish to fight with you, brother
 

---

Posted by sultan.org(In Makka ) (Member # 10368) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:
[QUOTE]If we don't need translations or dictionaries, then how did you come up with "sunna" in the first place? I know you don't read Arabic, so obviously you must have formed your opinion after reading a translation or an interpretation, no?

[54:5]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
What verse are you talking about?

---

Are you for real?
This what I asked YOU above.

You said:
The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran.
and:
I think on the verse and I see it's sunna


I said:

which verse exactly are you referring to? I posted several.

But never mind ... I should have known better than to try to get a reply from you anyway. It's obvious you're dancing around the issue and ignoring questions on purpose because you're unable and unwilling to answer.
 

---

Posted by sultan.org(In Makka ) (Member # 10368) on :
 
Sorry, We have some problems understanding each other. I'm refering to any verse having "the Book and Wisdom" expression. It does make sense to understand that "wisdom" is the prophetic Sunna.
 

---

Posted by homing pigeon (Member # 8039) on :
 
Batman, I have a grieviance with you now. You were in too much of a hurry to pass judgement of corrupt sources and not reading well in order to prove your point. I thi k you owe me an apology. I went back and reviewed the tafseers of this particular verse (surat Alnissa: 113) on www.reciter.org.

Ibn Kathir says wisdom here means sunna but Algalaeyn and Altabarry say in this veresw wisdom means the rulings in the quran while Qurtoby says it means divine inspiration. If you compare this to my summary above regarding their interpretation of the word wisdom in surat Alnahl. You will find that, indeed, each one of them has maintained their stance about the interpretation of the word. Which, should tell you again that it is possible that it means sunna and it is possible that it means otherwise.

Looking at another verse that contains the same words book and wisdom; (surat Algoma'a :2)

Alqortoby states that Alhassan has interpeted wisdom as sunna while Ibn Anas has interpreted wisdom as Islamic jurisprudence.

Algalaleyn maintain their stance that wisdom means the rulings of the quran or in other words Islamic jurisprudence

Altabbarry and Ibn Kathir do not enlarge on th interpretation of this word specifically here, probably becasue they have explained it many times over in earlier verses but the general feel of what they say is that it implies the whole of the creed of Islam.

If we review another verse, lets chose an early one on the book, again, to get a comprehensive explanation from the itnerpreters:
(Surat Al Imran: 164)

Ibn Kathir still maintains that wisdom is sunna, and here, ALGALAEYN and Altabarry agree while Qurtoby stil maintains that wisdom is the knowledge of islamic rulings and jurisfrudence (fiqh)

Now, the same words in surat Albaqara verse 129 are interpreted as follows:

Ibn Kathir states that according to Ahassan, Qatada, Ibn 7ayyan, Abu Malik and others, wisdom means sunna and according to Ibn Abbass it means obedience and faithfulness to Allah while others mentioned it is islamic jurisprudence while Ibn Ishaq says it means knowledge of what's good and what's evil...(so you see even Ibn Kathir has the sense of the rnowned scholar who presents the range of opinion although he himslef is convinced that wisdom is probably the sunna, he still lists the companions who have interpreted it differently.

Altabarry here lists the same range of opinion that Ibn Kathir mentions:
الْقَوْل فِي تَأْوِيل قَوْله تَعَالَى : { وَيُعَلِّمهُمْ الْكِتَاب وَالْحِكْمَة } . وَيَعْنِي بِالْكِتَابِ الْقُرْآن . وَقَدْ بَيَّنْت فِيمَا مَضَى لِمَ سُمِّيَ الْقُرْآن كِتَابًا وَمَا تَأْوِيله . وَهُوَ قَوْل جَمَاعَة مِنْ أَهْل التَّأْوِيل . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : 1713 - حَدَّثَنِي يُونُس قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنَا ابْن وَهْب , قَالَ : قَالَ ابْن زَيْد : { وَيُعَلِّمهُمْ الْكِتَاب } الْقُرْآن . ثُمَّ اخْتَلَفَ أَهْل التَّأْوِيل فِي مَعْنَى الْحِكْمَة الَّتِي ذَكَرَهَا اللَّه فِي هَذَا الْمَوْضِع , فَقَالَ بَعْضهمْ : هِيَ السُّنَّة . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : 1714 - حَدَّثَنَا بِشْر بْن مُعَاذ , قَالَ : ثنا يَزِيد , قَالَ : ثنا سَعِيد , عَنْ قَتَادَة , وَالْحِكْمَة : أَيْ السُّنَّة . وَقَالَ بَعْضهمْ : الْحِكْمَة هِيَ الْمَعْرِفَة بِالدِّينِ وَالْفِقْه فِيهِ . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : 1715 - حَدَّثَنِي يُونُس , قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنَا ابْن وَهْب , قَالَ : قُلْت لِمَالِكِ : مَا الْحِكْمَة ؟ قَالَ : الْمَعْرِفَة بِالدِّينِ , وَالْفِقْه فِي الدِّين , وَالِاتِّبَاع لَهُ . 1716 - حَدَّثَنِي يُونُس , قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنَا ابْن وَهْب , قَالَ : قَالَ ابْن زَيْد فِي قَوْله : { وَالْحِكْمَة } قَالَ : الْحِكْمَة : الدِّين الَّذِي لَا يَعْرِفُونَهُ إلَّا بِهِ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يُعَلِّمهُمْ إيَّاهَا . قَالَ : وَالْحِكْمَة : الْعَقْل فِي الدِّين ; وَقَرَأَ : { وَمَنْ يُؤْتَ الْحِكْمَة فَقَدْ أُوتِيَ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا } . 2 269 وَقَالَ لِعِيسَى : { وَيُعَلِّمهُ الْكِتَاب وَالْحِكْمَة وَالتَّوْرَاة وَالْإِنْجِيل } . 3 48 قَالَ : وَقَرَأَ ابْن زَيْد : { وَاتْلُ عَلَيْهِمْ نَبَأ الَّذِي آتَيْنَاهُ آيَاتنَا فَانْسَلَخَ مِنْهَا } . 7 175 قَالَ : لَمْ يَنْتَفِع بِالْآيَاتِ حَيْثُ لَمْ تَكُنْ مَعَهَا حِكْمَة . قَالَ : وَالْحِكْمَة شَيْء يَجْعَلهُ اللَّه فِي الْقَلْب يُنَوِّر لَهُ بِهِ . وَالصَّوَاب مِنْ الْقَوْل عِنْدنَا فِي الْحِكْمَة , أَنَّهَا الْعِلْم بِأَحْكَامِ اللَّه الَّتِي لَا يُدْرَك عِلْمهَا إلَّا بِبَيَانِ الرَّسُول صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَالْمَعْرِفَة بِهَا , وَمَا دَلَّ عَلَيْهِ ذَلِكَ مِنْ نَظَائِره . وَهُوَ عِنْدِي مَأْخُوذ مِنْ " الْحُكْم " الَّذِي بِمَعْنَى الْفَصْل بَيْن الْحَقّ وَالْبَاطِل بِمَنْزِلَةِ " الْجِلْسَة وَالْقَعْدَة " مِنْ " الْجُلُوس وَالْقُعُود " , يُقَال مِنْهُ : إنَّ فُلَانًا لَحَكِيم بَيِّن الْحِكْمَة , يَعْنِي بِهِ أَنَّهُ لَبَيِّن الْإِصَابَة فِي الْقَوْل وَالْفِعْل . وَإِذْ كَانَ ذَلِكَ كَذَلِكَ , فَتَأْوِيل , الْآيَة : رَبّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتك , وَيُعَلِّمهُمْ كِتَابك الَّذِي تُنَزِّلهُ عَلَيْهِمْ , وَفَصْل قَضَائِك , وَأَحْكَامك الَّتِي تُعَلِّمهُ إيَّاهَا .

While Algaleyn and Alqortoby say it is the rulings again (islamic jurisprudence or fiqh)

I hope now it is clear that there is a RANGE of possible explanations that all make sense in a broad way, wisdom is wisdom within the Islamic creed whether it be sunna, jurisprudence, knowledge of good and evil ....etc. Keep a broad perspective of the word, not a narrow inflexible one.

And Batman, please, do not try to patronize me again. I dont say anything before I'm sure of it as a rule.
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 
...
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 
up
 

---

Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
 
down
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:

Imam Ibn Kathir (RA) and many others (Muslimeen) says hikmah means sunnah and Dalia (Kaffirs/Free-thinkers) say hikmah does not mean sunnah.

Now who do should a Muslim believe? Dalia or Ibn Kathir (RA)? Go figure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Egypt:
so put many things which Hikma means in the verse and ask yourself was the prophet duty only to deliver the book ?

"He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His verses, purifying them and teaching them the Book and Hikmah ( many things ).And verily, they had been before in manifest error." (62:2)

so where are these many things that the prophet teached us ?

---

ROFL!!!

I did not mean that it literally means "many things". Love the example.

If you read my whole post it should become clear that I meant it means "wisdom" in most cases, but might mean something similar or different in a few others.

As I described before, I did a research and I did read many verses that contained "hekma", and in all cases I read, "wisdom" made the most sense. But I did NOT check every single ayat containing a "hekma" or another derivative of the root "hakama".

 

---

Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

Can you explain this?
Or can you post some texts by Ibn Kathir or other a'imma or shuyukh that explain this in a comprehensive manner or refer us to some kutub that might help with this issue?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

If you read my whole post it should become clear that I meant it means "wisdom" in most cases, but might mean something similar or different in a few others.

---

we need to know the other meanings of it, could one of them be the Sunnah as Ibn Kathir said ? especially the verse of Surat Al-Nisaa 4 speaks of the wisdom being sent down to the prophet with the book.
 

---

Posted by hitman (Member # 13360) on :
 
hey hey hey ,,,,,why r u getting every thing so complicated ...things are so simple and easy .and islam is meant to be simple and clear so don't make it hard on u ppl......1st don't argue about things like this while u r not (qualified) for giving critical infos on things like that ( not an authorised shiekh from islamic well known orgnisation ) or something..... second ..... sunnah only means one thing which is ( to follow prophet mohamad p.b.o.h with his actions ,,, like doing things in the same way he used to do it ..pray like this , or wash b4 praying like that ,or pray for forgivness b4 asr prayer ...etc etc ....,which muslims are not obliged to do , following that raises the level of good points of mankind within his book infront of god ,but its not (a duty from god ) but its prefered to do so,,,,, 3rd .... about Hekma word ,,,,,, and Dalia ,,I'll explain to u as I didn't see a real convincing reason here ,,,, look... arabic dictionary doesn't furfill the whole meanings of quran words ,coz god words in qura`n came in a way that have a kind of wt we call (miracle ) words have really deep meanings and special tones on mankind ears , there are some words that the islamic translation of it was according to the msg that god is sending within that sintance ,,,, (Hekma) means sometimes - wisdom , and in other sintances means - reliegon , and in some other sintances means - position as ruling,,,,,,so don't try to understand qura`n from a normal arabic dictionary ,,not even the best arabic dictionarys can .... there are special dictionarys for qura`n called ( tafseer elqur`an )-qur`an explaination- built on strong basics in islam and it have the right explanations for the holy qur`an .... hope I helped a little here ...and god knows better than me and any other ......thanks .
 

---

Posted by hitman (Member # 13360) on :
 
it cannot be to explain hekma as sunnah there if allah has sent down the holy qur`an on the phrophet mohamad p.b.o.h , coz how sunnah will be sent on mohamad while sunnah is a trail of prophet mohamad's purity in islam ....sunnah means to follow him in his actions ....so there it means that god brought down on him the holy qura`n and wisdom or (reliegon) which is a wisdom as well .... the sunna is not a one thing people ..... like when say (wa etb3o sunnat allah w rsoleh ) means sunna of allah and his prophet ...it means hear the holy words of allah and the trail of his phrophet (following allah's phrophet mohamad p.b.o.h .
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 
BTW where is Islamway i.e. Sultan..We need him back here..mashaa Allah what a wonderful Muslim.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
true he was fun too with his twisted version of Islam. Just like you he ignored glaringly obvious errors and questions on them, and just like you he was lacking a BRAIN to think with.
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
true he was fun too with his twisted version of Islam. Just like you he ignored glaringly obvious errors and questions on them, and just like you he was lacking a BRAIN to think with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
true he was fun too with his twisted version of Islam. Just like you he ignored glaringly obvious errors and questions on them, and just like you he was lacking a BRAIN to think with.

---

You kaffireen (Dalia and Ayisha) wouldn't know if Islaam if it slapped you in the face. Looks like I'm not the only one who has been showing you Al Haqq and you still don't get it.

The brother obviously got tired of responding to your garbage like me and found better use of his time than debating with imbeciles who can read or write in the langauage that Allah and the bless Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam spoke in and they that in 5 1/2 years they know the deen better than the ones who sat at the blessed feet of the Rasulullah Salalllahu alayhi wassalaam and now think that are the defenders and preservers of the deen.

Now whose version of Islaam is twisted? Ayisha who celebrates Christmas,attending church, rejecting ahadeeth, listening to Monks and Buddist chants all awhile proclaiming she is love tawheed? Or the Islaam of the As Salafah As Saleh?

Go figure!

---

quote:

---

than debating with imbeciles who can read or write in the langauage

---

I like this bit though, yes I have tired of debating with imbeciles like you who can read or write Arabic, the point is you can read or write Arabic and YOU STILL DONT GET IT because YOU HAVE A TINY BRAIN CELL and wouldnt recognize TRUTH if it slapped YOU in the face. THE TRUTH IS IN THE BOOK! And I dont mean the book of BUKHARI.
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Egypt:

I don't think you read Arabic

---

You have a bad memory, Mr. Egypt, because you've said this to me several times in the past, and every time I have told you I do read Arabic.

You obviously have not read this thread. How do you do a root search and use a dictionary if you don't read Arabic?
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
You kaffireen (Dalia and Ayisha) wouldn't know if Islaam if it slapped you in the face. Looks like I'm not the only one who has been showing you Al Haqq and you still don't get it.


Now whose version of Islaam is twisted? Ayisha who celebrates Christmas,attending church, rejecting ahadeeth, listening to Monks and Buddhist chants all awhile proclaiming she is loves tawheed? Or the Islaam of the As Salafah As Saleh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:

The brother obviously got tired of responding to your garbage like me and found better use of his time than debating with imbeciles who can't read or write in the langauage that Allah and the bless Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam spoke in

---

The brother does not speak or read Arabic. In fact, he doesn't even speak or read English properly.
 

---

Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:
You have a bad memory, Mr. Egypt, because you've said this to me several times in the past, and every time I have told you I do read Arabic.

---

actually I don't bother to know or memorize informations about you, no offense. If you read arabic I have posted for you what you asked and I doubt you even understood it even though you speak Arabic. unless you translate the paragraph and where's your comment about tafsir Ibn Kathir and his explanation of the wisdom as Sunnah ?
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
so why didnt Allah SAY sunnah?

wisdom is wisdom, old wise men have wisdom, they do not have 'the prophets sunnah'. Someone who is wise is not necessarily a prophet.
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Egypt:
actually I don't bother to know or memorize informations about you, no offense.

---

I'm not offended at all. Your latest replies just confirmed my opinion that you're not intelligent khalas.
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
so why didnt Allah SAY sunnah?

wisdom is wisdom, old wise men have wisdom, they do not have 'the prophets sunnah'. Someone who is wise is not necessarily a prophet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:

Allah uses the word dhikr to mean the Quran. Why didn't He just say Quran? He didn't, He says Dhirk right Dalia?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Here is the answer for you and Dalia Inshaa Allah.

Allah uses the word dhikr to mean the Quran. Why didn't He just say Quran? He didn't, He says Dhirk right Dalia?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Bil-Bayyināti Wa Az-Zuburi Wa 'Anzalnā 'Ilayka Adh-Dhikra Litubayyina Lilnnāsi Mā Nuzzila 'Ilayhim Wa La`allahum Yatafakkarūna

"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
15:9

Inshaa Allah now you see the importance of learning, studying, and reading the Dhikr (Quran) in the Arabic Language.

Sorry the Sandman was away in Jumuah Prayers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Here is the answer for you and Dalia Inshaa Allah.

Allah uses the word dhikr to mean the Quran. Why didn't He just say Quran? He didn't, He says Dhirk right Dalia?

---

I think it makes perfect sense. God sent the Qur'an as a reminder (dhikr). If you read the verse Jouer posted above, it is very clear ... "We have sent down the reminder and will guard it from corruption". It's obvious that this is referring to the Qur'an itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Oh now it makes perfect sense subhana Allah. La ilaha Illah. Why does it now make perfect sense. The word dhikr from the lugahtul Arabic could not in anyway mean Quran. The word dkhir when used in Quranic language is clarified by the mufasireen not by the dictionary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Oh now it makes perfect sense subhana Allah. La ilaha Illah. Why does it now make perfect sense. The word dhikr from the lugahtul Arabic could not in anyway mean Quran. The word dkhir when used in Quranic language is clarified by the mufasireen not by the dictionary.

---

Sorry, but I don't really understand the problem here. Of course the dictionaries don't list "Qur'an" as a translation for "dhikr", but nevertheless it is obvious when reading the verses in question, even without any additional explanations. It's a metaphor that makes perfect sense.


Edited: I just looked into my dictionary (I'm using Hans Wehr) and it does list "ad-dhikr al-hakim" as "the Qur'an"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Don't you play the word game. Look up the root word dha-ka-ra (dhikr)..not a jumlah word ad dhikr Al hakim..just like you looked the word up the root word for ha-ka-ma (hikmah) as the root word hikmah

Stop playing with words...We are not discusing the words ad dhikr al hakim. We were talking about two words:

1. hikimah ha-ka-ma
2. dhikr dha-ka-ra

---

I am not "playing" with words, I am trying to research a word and its meanings.

And, yes, of course I did look up the root "dha-ka ra".


Anyway, I still don't understand what your problem is and why you're picking on me, so I will repeat myself one more time and then leave this conversation with you:

If you look up "dha-ka-ra" and its derivatives, the verses posted above are perfectly clear. My point was that you don't NEED a dictionary to tell you that "dhikr" could mean "Qur'an" and you don't need explanations either; it is a metaphor and becomes self-evident when reading the verses in question. Thus I don't understand why you insist it should be a problem.


I'm off to the gym now, have a great day everyone.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 

quote:

---

Don't you play the word game. Look up the root word dha-ka-ra (dhikr)..not a jumlah word ad dhikr Al hakim..just like you looked the word up the root word for ha-ka-ma (hikmah) as the root word hikmah

Stop playing with words...We are not discusing the words ad dhikr al hakim. We were talking about two words:

1. hikimah ha-ka-ma
2. dhikr dha-ka-ra

Not ad dhirk al hikmah..astagfirullah

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44

so how do you explain 16:43?

"And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message."

The same word is used but it is clealy talking about the message/reminder sent before Quran.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
Sands am I to think you cant answer this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44

so how do you explain 16:43?

"And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message."

The same word is used but it is clealy talking about the message/reminder sent before Quran.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
Sands am I to think you cant answer this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44

so how do you explain 16:43?

"And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message."

The same word is used but it is clealy talking about the message/reminder sent before Quran.

---

---

Yes, ayisha..the Arabic language is very vast..I have said this before..a word may have 15 different meaning depending on the context in which it is used..

Hadeeth means communication, story, a tale, report it literal meaning as an adjective is new as opposed to old. It can also mean a narration.

The word dhikr has a vast meanings as well and one of the is Quran and message..

Inshaa Allah I hope that is clear.

Barakallahu feekum

BTW another example in English: the word spring

1. Spring..as in season
2. Spring as in a body of water
3. Spring..as in jumping
4. Spring as in a vehicle part

etc..a word take many meaning depending on the context in which it is used..

---

Thank you sands, that is now clear that dhikr does not necessarily mean quran as you originally stated it does throughout Quran. In all cases in Quran it means message or reminder, which CAN mean Quran but not always. when Allah means Quran He says Quran, when He means reminder or message He says dhikr.
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 
No that no completely what I said. I completely said that the work dhikr in the Quranic languge i.e. the Quran mean Quran.

Dhikr means Quran also.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
thats what I said sands. Quran means Quran, dhikr CAN mean Quran but not always, it means reminder or message. If you read Quran in Arabic then you will see that Allah says Quran when He means Quran and dhikr when He means reminder or message, the message or reminder CAN means Quran but not always, as is in 16:43, it clearly does NOT mean Quran it means 'message' or 'reminder' that was sent before Quran.

Would you like me to point out when He says Quran and means Quran??
 

---

Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
 
The Word dhikr was mentioned in the Quran 16 times. sometimes it means the Quran itself and sometimes it doesn't mean the Quran. Here are the verses that refers to the Quran as dhikr:

003.058
ذَلِكَ نَتْلُوهُ عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الآيَاتِ وَالذِّكْرِ الْحَكِيمِ
This We recite to you of the communications and the wise reminder.

015.006
وَقَالُواْ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِي نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ الذِّكْرُ إِنَّكَ لَمَجْنُونٌ
And they say: O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! you are most surely insane:

015.009
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.

016.044
بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

025.18
قَالُوا سُبْحَانَكَ مَا كَانَ يَنبَغِي لَنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ مِن دُونِكَ مِنْ أَوْلِيَاء وَلَكِن مَّتَّعْتَهُمْ وَآبَاءهُمْ حَتَّى نَسُوا الذِّكْرَ وَكَانُوا قَوْمًا بُورًا
They shall say: Glory be to Thee; it was not beseeming for us that we should take any guardians besides Thee, but Thou didst make them and their fathers to enjoy until they forsook the reminder, and they were a people in perdition,

025.029
لَقَدْ أَضَلَّنِي عَنِ الذِّكْرِ بَعْدَ إِذْ جَاءنِي وَكَانَ الشَّيْطَانُ
Certainly he led me astray from the reminder after it had come to me; and the Shaitan fails to aid man.

036.011
إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الذِّكْرَ وَخَشِيَ الرَّحْمَن بِالْغَيْبِ فَبَشِّرْهُ بِمَغْفِرَةٍ وَأَجْرٍ كَرِيمٍ
You can only warn him who follows the reminder and fears the Beneficent Allah in secret; so announce to him forgiveness and an honorable reward.

038.008
أَأُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ الذِّكْرُ مِن بَيْنِنَا بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّن ذِكْرِي بَلْ لَمَّا يَذُوقُوا عَذَابِ
Has the reminder been revealed to him from among us? Nay! they are in doubt as to My reminder. Nay! they have not yet tasted My chastisement!

041.041
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالذِّكْرِ لَمَّا جَاءهُمْ وَإِنَّهُ لَكِتَابٌ عَزِيزٌ
Surely those who disbelieve in the reminder when it comes to them, and most surely it is a Mighty Book:

043.005
أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكْرَ صَفْحًا أَن كُنتُمْ قَوْمًا مُّسْرِفِينَ
What! shall We then turn away the reminder from you altogether because you are an extravagant people?

054.025
أَؤُلْقِيَ الذِّكْرُ عَلَيْهِ مِن بَيْنِنَا بَلْ هُوَ كَذَّابٌ أَشِرٌ
Has the reminder been made to light upon him from among us? Nay! he is an insolent liar!

068.051
وَإِن يَكَادُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَيُزْلِقُونَكَ بِأَبْصَارِهِمْ لَمَّا سَمِعُوا الذِّكْرَ وَيَقُولُونَ إِنَّهُ لَمَجْنُونٌ
And those who disbelieve would almost smite you with their eyes when they hear the reminder, and they say: Most surely he is mad.

***********************************************
Here are the verses that refer to the dhikr as something else than the Quran.

016.043
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know

the followers of the Reminder in the verse above means the people of the Torah and the Injeel.

021.007
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not

same as verse 016.043

021.105
وَلَقَدْ كَتَبْنَا فِي الزَّبُورِ مِن بَعْدِ الذِّكْرِ أَنَّ الْأَرْضَ يَرِثُهَا عِبَادِيَ الصَّالِحُونَ
And certainly We wrote in the Book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit it.

in this verse the Reminder can't be the Quran as no divine Books were written after it

038:001
ص وَالْقُرْآنِ ذِي الذِّكْرِ
Sad: By the Qur'an, Full of Admonition

the Arabic Word dhikr is mentioned in the verse but it can't be the Qur'an itself
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
Thank you Mr Egypt, so dhikr does not necessarily mean Quran as I said, it can also mean Torah or Gospel, in fact any 'reminder' from Allah. When He means Quran He clearly says Quran.
 

---

Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
 
As far as I see it, the discussion is not over the meaning of "hikmah", which as one of its meanings undoubtedly can be read as "wisdom", but over what Allah meant when He wrote "al-hikmah" (the Wisdom) next to "al-kitab" (the Book). If you look at the verses below, it is clear that Allah not only revealed "the Book" to some of His Messengers, but that He also revealed "the Wisdom", something in addition to "the Book".

A book can obviously be any book, but when you add the definitive article to it, it becomes a specific book, and when we apply it to a specific book that is revealed by Allah, it is usually understood by most scholars of the Arabic language and interpreters of the Qur'an to mean a book of Scripture, e.g. the Qur'an, Gospel, Torah, etc. And when the definite article is added to wisdom, it becomes specific wisdom, which, when it is applied to the Messengers of Allah, is usually understood by most scholars of the Arabic language and interpreters of the Qur'an to mean prophethood or the Sunnah (the way of the Prophet).

When Allah also revealed "the Wisdom" to His Messengers, this was what made them more than just transmitters of His Message, which is what the word "rasul" (Messenger) means, it also made them in most cases in Arabic, "nabiy", which is translated in English usually as "Prophet". This was in addition to their roles as Messengers. This "Wisdom" that He also revealed to them was what distinguished them and also made them individuals assigned a special mission to guide humanity.

Here are the verses that I was referring to that I could find mention of "al-hikmah" in:

(1) "Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book and the Wisdom, and sanctify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."
( Al-Baqarah, Chapter 2, Verse 129)

(2) And when you have divorced women and they have fulfilled the term of their prescribed period, either take them back on reasonable basis or set them free on reasonable basis. But do not take them back to hurt them, and whoever does that, then he has wronged himself. And treat not the Verses of Allah as a jest, but remember Allah's Favours on you, and that which He has sent down to you of the Book and the Wisdom whereby He instructs you. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is All-Aware of everything.
(Al-Baqarah, 2:231)

(3) And He (Allah) will teach him (Jesus) the Book and the Wisdom, (and) the Torah and the Gospel.
(Al-Imran, 3:48)

(4) This is (part) of the Wisdom which your Lord has revealed to you (Muhammad). And set not up with Allah any other god lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected, (from Allahs Mercy).
(Al-Isra, 17:39)

(5) We made his (Solomon's) kingdom strong and gave him the Wisdom and sound judgement in speech and decision.
(Sad, 38:20)

(6) And when Isa came with (Our) clear Proofs, he said: "I have come to you with the Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) in which you differ, therefore fear Allah and obey me,
(Az-Zukhruf, 43:63)

(7) He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the Wisdom. And verily, they had been before in manifest error;
(Al-Jumua, 62:2)
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
Thanks newcomer and that does make sense especially as you have said messengers. It also shows that the 'wisdom' does not necessarily mean 'the prophets sunnah' as it also mentions it regarding Jesus and Soloman, so it could not have meant 'the propehts sunnah' in relation to Muhammed. It meant God's sunnah, Allah's 'WAY', which all the prophets followed.
 

---

Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
 
Of course they followed Allah's Way; they would have been pretty unbelievable prophets if they hadn't. But "the Wisdom" was something that was revealed to them in addition to the the Book, that made them more than Messengers; it also made them Prophets with special skills, knowledge, and abilites.
 

---

Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
Thank you Mr Egypt, so dhikr does not necessarily mean Quran as I said, it can also mean Torah or Gospel, in fact any 'reminder' from Allah. When He means Quran He clearly says Quran.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Of course they followed Allah's Way; they would have been pretty unbelievable prophets if they hadn't. But "the Wisdom" was something that was revealed to them in addition to the the Book, that made them more than Messengers; it also made them Prophets with special skills, knowledge, and abilites.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
Thanks newcomer and that does make sense especially as you have said messengers. It also shows that the 'wisdom' does not necessarily mean 'the prophets sunnah' as it also mentions it regarding Jesus and Soloman, so it could not have meant 'the propehts sunnah' in relation to Muhammed. It meant God's sunnah, Allah's 'WAY', which all the prophets followed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
As far as I see it, the discussion is not over the meaning of "hikmah", which as one of its meanings undoubtedly can be read as "wisdom", but over what Allah meant when He wrote "al-hikmah" (the Wisdom) next to "al-kitab" (the Book). If you look at the verses below, it is clear that Allah not only revealed "the Book" to some of His Messengers, but that He also revealed "the Wisdom", something in addition to "the Book".

A book can obviously be any book, but when you add the definitive article to it, it becomes a specific book, and when we apply it to a specific book that is revealed by Allah, it is usually understood by most scholars of the Arabic language and interpreters of the Qur'an to mean a book of Scripture, e.g. the Qur'an, Gospel, Torah, etc. And when the definite article is added to wisdom, it becomes specific wisdom, which, when it is applied to the Messengers of Allah, is usually understood by most scholars of the Arabic language and interpreters of the Qur'an to mean prophethood or the Sunnah (the way of the Prophet).

When Allah also revealed "the Wisdom" to His Messengers, this was what made them more than just transmitters of His Message, which is what the word "rasul" (Messenger) means, it also made them in most cases in Arabic, "nabiy", which is translated in English usually as "Prophet". This was in addition to their roles as Messengers. This "Wisdom" that He also revealed to them was what distinguished them and also made them individuals assigned a special mission to guide humanity.

---

I said something similar early on in this thread:

I can see that -- if you're intent on doing so -- you might interpret *hekma* as *sunna* in particular verses where it's used in conjunction with Mohammed. However, the word is used throughout the Qur'an, and in some verses it would not make any sense at all to translate it as *hadith* or *sunna*.

So, yes, it makes sense to use *wisdom* in order to refer to the things the prophets / messengers have been tought. Of course the way of acting, thinking and speaking that was enjoined on them had to contain a lot of wisdom by default, so to speak.

But I said it does not make sense in every verse where the word appears, which was what some people claimed earlier. That I was objecting to!

The discussion about the work "hekma" originally came about because the starter of this thread posted a translation of a verse that said:

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”

I then pointed out that it was misguiding to post a translation like this, because I felt it was a particular interpretation rather than a translation.


So I feel most of us are basically saying the same thing, just expressing it a bit differently.
 

---

Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
you will go at great links to try to put out the light of Allah in terms of denying that the hikmah can mean the sunnah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Of course they followed Allah's Way; they would have been pretty unbelievable prophets if they hadn't. But "the Wisdom" was something that was revealed to them in addition to the the Book, that made them more than Messengers; it also made them Prophets with special skills, knowledge, and abilites.

---

ok I can agree with that. But I still cannot agree that the majority of hadith are part of this 'wisdom', I still think that the vast majority are fabricated by whoever as there are too many that a prophet of God would never have come out with. I cannot agree that everything attributed to the prophet as a hadith is part of the 'wisdom' or that they have been 'preserved' as Quran has.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
you will go at great links to try to put out the light of Allah in terms of denying that the hikmah can mean the sunnah.

---

No, she is not! She just does not agree that each and every hadith is part of that sunnah.
So the way I see it, the two of you are not disagreeing on what "hekma" can be, but on what exactly the "sunna" consists of. And as far as I understood Ayisha she believes that the true sunna can be found in the Qur'an.

---

Thank you Dalia
Sands I am the one here trying to re-ignite the light of Allah for you, I am certainly not trying to put it out, it just shines brighter for me than the hadith do at this time.

You still talk of hikmah meaning sunnah of the prophet as you dont read half what you reply to or have any understanding of anything further than what you are told. I will keep my conversation with the more intelligent here if you dont mind
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia*:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
you will go at great links to try to put out the light of Allah in terms of denying that the hikmah can mean the sunnah.

---

No, she is not! She just does not agree that each and every hadith is part of that sunnah.
So the way I see it, the two of you are not disagreeing on what "hekma" can be, but on what exactly the "sunna" consists of. And as far as I understood Ayisha she believes that the true sunna can be found in the Qur'an.

---

Thank you Dalia
Sands I am the one here trying to re-ignite the light of Allah for you, I am certainly not trying to put it out, it just shines brighter for me than the hadith do at this time.

You still talk of hikmah meaning sunnah of the prophet as you dont read half what you reply to or have any understanding of anything further than what you are told. I will keep my conversation with the more intelligent here if you dont mind

---

tayyib mashi..I rather talk with Dalia anyway..she's in a more relax mood
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
You don't have to agree that all the Hadith are accurate recordings of the Sunnah, as it is well known that there are Hadith that are da`if (weak), mawdu` (fabricated), and many other classifications that have been given to them by scholars in sincere attempts to try to work out which ones are the sahih (authentic) ones.

---

quote:

---

But I feel that if we only use our own personal intellect to try to work out which are the sahih ones, we will make many mistakes, as our knowledge is limited. For example, we could decide that a Hadith is an authentic one because it makes sense to us, without realising that the person who is reported to have heard it was a known liar or could never have heard it from the Prophet himself as he reports, because he never met the Prophet.

We could also claim that a Hadith is not authentic because it doesn't make sense to us, within the limits of our knowledge, but science could discover tomorrow that what was actually said is true.

We could also claim that something was not something that the Prophet could have ever said or done, because we don't know all the evidence surrounding what happened, but that it makes sense when we know the context of it.

Another Hadith could be disregarded as it seems too fantastic/unbelievable for a human being to have done, but if we realise that it was done by a Prophet of Allah, who was given special skills and abilites, we could perhaps open our minds to the possibility that it might have happened.

It is too simple to just say that it doesn't make sense to us and use that as the criterion to disregard it. The least we can say is that I don't understand how this can be true, and either try to find out if it might have been (and we may turn out to be correct or incorrect) or accept the limitations of our understanding.

---

I understand that newcomer, and although it may 'seem' to those here that I am sat here working it all out myself with my limited understanding, which I suppose I am in a way, but I do read many many things including Quran, yes I do read hadith and tafsir too! among other things. I limit myself to Sahih Hadith as I have no wish to read the others as that would be the icing on the cake so to speak. Its bad enough knowing that probably 99% are fabricated or weak then to be told I have to agree with the 1% that 'might' be authentic according to a man born over 200 years after the death of the prophet.

But in all this, I am TOLD I have to agree with the authentic hadith as they are 'preserved' and part of the revelation from Allah, sorry NO! Never will that make any sense. I am also TOLD that hadith 'explain' Quran, sorry again NO! They often 'confuse' things more than they were already IF they were at all. I beleive Allah when He says some you will not understand, we are not meant to.

I agree with the Sunnah of GOD/ALLAH (there you go sands ) I have always said that. But i do not think that this is necessarily found in hadith and that they are 'preserved', thats my arguement. The sunnah of Allah is found in ALL prophets not just Muhammed. I do not hold prophet Muhammed in any higher esteeme than I hold Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah or any other prophet of Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be on them all. They ALL came with the same message (dhikr ) They ALL said worship only ALLAH, they ALL taught kindness, compassion, love, peace, being good to your neighbour - whoever they are, justice, etc. All GOOD things, righteous things. Allahs names are Merciful, Forgiver, and many other beautiful names.

All the 'scholars' spent years studying, they used their own minds and intelligence and thier own limited understanding in those times to get to where they have in the hadith and tafsir explanations, so why cant I use mine? I may not be a scholar, but Allah didnt just send the message to scholars, its for ALL mankind. I 100% beleive that there is a test, a message and a test, in Quran. There are many referrences to 'men of understanding' in there, this does not necessarily mean scholars, this means WE are to understand and take that test with our own intelligence and use the brain we were given and the 'common sense' we were also given, to see what answer we come up with. To ME Islam is beautiful, liberating, from The Creator, it is instruction in how to behave in life and if I take that instruction properly I win, if I take it wrongly I lose. There are many things Quran says 'you can do this' then it says 'this is better' 'or you can do this' so all the way through there are 'options' and which 'option' you take will depend on how your brain works and how you have understood the instructions. If I rely on someone else to take that test for me, which relying on hadith without 'questioning' is doing, then I am to lose anyway as I have not taken the test but 'cheated' using someone elses 'notes'. This is MY soul I am working for, not yours or sands or anyone elses, and if I am wrong then I will take what Allah deems as punishment. I 'might' be right though.

wow good ramble
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:wow good ramble [/QB]

---

Yep it was
 

---

Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
I am also TOLD that hadith 'explain' Quran, sorry again NO! They often 'confuse' things more than they were already IF they were at all. I beleive Allah when He says some you will not understand, we are not meant to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:
Its bad enough knowing that probably 99% are fabricated or weak then to be told I have to agree with the 1% that 'might' be authentic according to a man born over 200 years after the death of the prophet.

---

I have read quite a bit on this subject and I have never seen anyone make this claim and give any acceptable evidence to support it. It appears to be an opinion that was promulgated by Orientalists, the most prominent of which were Ignaz Goldziher and Joseph Schacht, who came to this conclusion, through an apparently limited study of the information available on the collection and preservation of the Hadith.

There are a few good books available on this subject now in English that you might be interested in reading, which show the gaps in the knowledge of those who disseminate this information as if it is a fact. The best two, in my opinion, were written by M.M. Azami: Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature and Studies in Early Hadith Literature. These are excellent books that go into detail about the care that the early Muslims took in preserving, teaching, transmitting, and recording the Hadith.

This is some information from some notes I made on these books that you might find interesting. The books give details about such things as:

• The misunderstanding that the Companions were never permitted to write down Hadith, and how they were just told this in the early days of Islam to save confusion, but how later on the Prophet not only permitted them to write things that he said, but that he also told them to.

• The Companions who had collections of Hadith that were written down either by themselves or their students.

• The study circles that the early Muslims attended, where students (who had to pass the strict entrance criteria) learnt Hadith from their teachers by oral recitations, dictation, how they gained Ijazah to be able to pass on the knowledge they had gained from their transcripts.

• How misinterpretations of the Arabic words "tadwin", "tasnif" and "kitabah" led people to think that the Hadith were not recorded in a written form until they were written in the compilations made by people such as Bukhari and Muslim, whereas they actually meant that they were not compiled into organized collections.

• The detailed methods Bukhari used when collecting Hadith and ensuring that he only included Hadith in his book that were authenticated, as far as he was able to ensure, with the detailed knowledge that he had of the transmitters and his understanding of the language and Islamic teachings.

In fact following written versions of Hadith were available during the first four centuries:
First Century:
Unorganized ahadith collections
Collections of ahadith of the Prophet
Decisions of Companions and Successors

From Middle of First Century:
Books on specific subjects, e.g. Fara’id, marriage, divorce, compensation, etc.; mixed hadith and fiqh.

Second Century :
Organized books covering all legal areas, e.g. Muwatta; mixed Hadith and Athar.Many books still not organized

End of Second Century:
Books of just Hadith organized in chapters appeared

Third and Forth Centuries:
Most books contained hadith only, entitled e.g. Musnad, Jami’, Sahih, Sunan, Mustakhraj, Mu’jam, etc.
Books relating to the Hadith

If you read what Bukahri said about his collection you will see that he said: "I have not included in my book al-Jami` but what is authentic, and I left out among the authentic what I could not get hold of." He did not mention all the parallel chains of transmission for each and every Hadith he included and he also left other authentic Hadith out to avoid his compilation becoming too lengthy.

The claim that 99% of the Hadith included in Bukhari's compilation is spurious. In fact he only included around 9,000 of the Hadith that he had authenticated in his Sahih - which without repetition, reduces to around 2,602 - and he left the other Hadith from the 600,000 that he collected, many of which were also authenticated.

Sorry for the long ramble
 

---

Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
 
^^^^ Mashaa Allah what a wonderful post and clear evidence regarding usloolul hadeeth. Barakallahu feeki. We hope that many here will sincerely read it and inshaa Allah ta'ala benefit from it.

I have present some small facts to the matter that ahadeeth were collect during the time of the Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam, however, that too was turned on death's ear.

Anyway in Allah lies the success.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
Newcomer thank you for your post and I am sorry if my ramble seemed the way it did to you.

You ask about what i have said about the 1% of hadith claimed to be authentic and that you have never heard of this, you misunderstand as in your last paragraph you make it clear what I mean and have saved me having to search.

You say there were 600000 hadith collected by Bukhari, many of which were authenticated, and that without repetition only 2602 are used. That is even less than 1%, that is 0.43% of the actual collection he made.

The 1% I have been referring to is not that in the final books of bukhari only 1% are considered authentic, it is that in the final books of Bukhari are only 1% of the collection, but I was wrong its 0.43%. Even if we say 9000 used, roughly, and include the repetitions thats still only 1.5% used.

Now if I am to believe that this is also 'part of the revelation from Allah' then shouldn't they also be 'included'? Why deprive me of 98.5% of the information? And why should I beleive that this 1.5% I am given are rellevant if the other 98.5% aren't?

Now you will say some were weak, fabricated, etc. but if 98.5% were considered weak or fabricated why should I beleive the 1.5% I am presented with are not?

If I was doing your accounts and I came to you with 98.5% errors so I left out those figures from your Balance Sheet would you accept that?? Wouldn't you also want to query the 1.5% that I gave you before you fire me?
 

---

Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
 
If I, as your professor, asked you to make me a compilation of authenticated Hadith, divided into relevant chapters - which was the task that Bukhari was given by his Sheikh that led to his compilation of Sahih Hadith - and you went off and did your research and then presented me with every single scrap of information that you had come across in all your reading, even from unverified sources, I would certainly fail you

Btw. with the 1%, I thought you meant Goldziher and Schacht's claims that only 1% of the Hadith in Bukhari were sahih - as it seemed most likely as you were using the same percentage as they did - and that was what I was referring to when I said that I have never heard anyone make that claim and be able to support with acceptable evidence.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
We are not talking about all the other scraps being from unverified sources though are we? as you said yourself many of those not included were also declared suthentic. Only some were weak or fabricated but how many exactly? we will never know. Thats how unreliable I see it.

We are also not talking about passing a university exam, we are talking about saving our souls, which is slightly different and a little more important.

Now if we say half of all collected are weak or fabricated and we are using the 9000, that is still only 3%. Taking account of repetitions its 0.87% used. Still not good enough for anything 'sound' enough for me to rely on for saving my soul. If more than half were weak or fabricated then all the rest are seriously questionable.

So if Allah is saying that he gave something else apart from Quran, and Muslims say thats the hadith or sunnah (the words are often used interchangably), then we are still short quite a lot for something so important in saving our souls.

Then there are also the verses where Allah says Quran is complete etc, but that discussion has been done.
 

---

Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
 
I guess that's why we have to be careful about listening to "some people", if we just accepted everything "they" said, we'd be up the creek without a paddle.

The Sunnah and the Hadith, in the context you are using them are not interchangeable words. They can be when we are talking generally (such as "We take knowledge from the Sunnah/Hadith"), but as we are talking more specifically, it is misleading. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said in the Farewell Sermon:
"O People, no prophet or messenger will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well therefore, O people, and understand the words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."

What he meant by the Sunnah was his example/way/path of how Islam should be carried out on earth, and as he said, that it includes his words. If he wants us to pass on his Sunnah, then by default we also have to include his deeds in that.

I gave the example of the university test in relation to Bukhari, because that was all he was doing; writing a research paper for his Sheikh and collecting authenticated Hadith that reported the things that the Prophet had said and done. He wasn't writing "the Sunnah". The Sunnah was the practical living example shown by the Prophet of how to put Islam into practice, and that was protected, as Allah guided the Prophet with the Wisdom and He corrected him when he made a mistake (as in the story about Abdullah ibn Umm Maktum that is reported in the Qur'an). The Sunnah can never be changed because it was what the Prophet did.

The Hadith, on the other hand are just reports of the Sunnah, passed down from the Sahabah to the Tabiyin, to the later generations in the careful way I described above. Those people were all aware of what the Prophet said, "“Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire.”

Yes, there were people who did invent Hadith for their own personal or political ends and there were people who had faulty memories who didn't pass Hadith on as accurately as they could, which was why Bukhari and others tried to authenticate the information that they had gathered. But it is agreed by those who have greater knowledge of the Hadith than I will ever have, that Bukhari is the soundest complication of authenticated Hadith, followed by Muslim and then the other books. There are a few that are contested in those books, but that doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater, without making some attempt to check out which are the questionable ones first, as they are our best source of information to learn what the Prophet taught us during his mission.

I mentioned that there are many Hadith in Bukhari that are duplicated, in terms of the text of the Hadith, but many of them are in fact regarded as individual Hadith because the chains of transmission had some differences and also Bukhari repeated some of the Hadith because they didn't fit neatly into single chapters, but included information that was relevant to more than one chapter. As far as I understand, the Hadith that he didn't include came into the first category, i.e. they would have been seen as individual Hadith due to their chains of transmission, but the text didn't add anything extra to the information he presented in his book.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
I agree that if we just accept everything 'some people' say we would be up the creek without a paddle, thats why I am seeking Newcomer

I have always said the sunnah and hadith are not the same and you agree with that here: "What he meant by the Sunnah was his example/way/path " i have always said that. But then you go on: "that it includes his words" where I say his words are Quran.

You also show a portion of the prophets farewell sermon which says he left 2 things, the Book and his sunnah. I have searched and 'most' referrences agree with that but not ALL, some say he only said THE BOOK OF ALLAH. All who say the sunnah actually use the word 'example' with 'sunnah' in brackets. Now I fully agree he WILL have left his 'example', but debate whether that 'example' is hadith. Ok I know this is confusing as we get the 'life' story from hadith, but if we just assume that Muhammed did everything 'right' according to Allah and Quran, then the 'example', the 'sunnah' is IN QURAN. The words we are to listen to from him are Quran, the words we are to pass on are Quran. Muhammed would not have 'added' words that are not in Quran but he would have 'explained' things in a different 'way' to those who didnt understand the actual Words in 'that time'. Now looking at the language used in those days to the language used now in life. If I take my own language as an example and I was trying to pass on Quran and explain to a group of teenagers on a street corner in UK I would use 'Allah is da Big Guy man, da Boss, there aint nuffin Bigger than Him man, He is kickin, He is BADDDDD, nuff said' Now if that was written down and used in say 200 years when language had 'changed' would it be taken as Allah is Bad?? Would 'nuff said' be taken as the 'final word'? YES for those that follow my 'hadith' and NO for those who stick with the BOOK. But all I am doing is using words that the people will 'understand' today. Those that read the Words in The Book will see that is not what I meant because the 'example' is there and will then 'explain' it in a way for their 'time'. They will see that Allah is Great and not Baaddddd. But there will also be those who will desperately hang on to my 'hadith' because I said it 200 years or so previously. Am I getting my point accross???

Now I agree that the 'sunnah' is the 'way'. But hadith, with its unreliability, is 'questionable'. It is 'possibly' reports of words used by the prophet during his life and I understand Muslims who stick to it like glue, but I can't. I will use what of them agree with Quran or show me 'how' something 'relating' to Quran was done. I am talking about taking Quran as a WHOLE. Those of hadith, that are supposedly 'authentic' but are 'wild' in my opinion as they do not relate anything of Quran I will leave and give a wide berth. I mean those like a devil up your nose at night, or what foot to enter the bathroom with, these are nothing to do with God's 'Message', in my opinion, and not rellevant. These are the ones that will be explaining 'something' in the language that those people understood in that TIME. Dont forget even though they were the first Muslims they had all been raised in their 'culture' with 'traditions' that had been practiced for centuries, so words they would understand for their knowledge at that time would have been used to 'explain' things in a way they will understand.

I believe Allah protected the Quran and the Sunnah (way) but I dont beleive He
protected the hadith. If He did then He didnt do a very good job if it was such a hard job to sift through and sort what 'some people' say are 'authentic'. If they were 'protected' they wouldnt have been lost or mixed up with weak or fabricated hadith. The 'sunnah' is clearly IN Quran and was the same 'sunnah' of ALL the prophets.

I had to laugh at this bit :
"But it is agreed by those who have greater knowledge of the Hadith than I will ever have, that Bukhari is the soundest complication of authenticated Hadith, followed by Muslim and then the other books."

fully agree but I know you meant 'compilation' and not complication.

But you also 'agree' that there are some that are contested, even though the 'majority' agree.

I understand the science of hadith collection and those efforts are commendable but they are not 'Gospel' for me. Quran IS. Quran is SAFE. Quran is THE WORDS OF GOD. Hadith is NONE of these.

Now reading your posts you are in one hand saying that the hadith is not 'complete' or 'Gospel' so to speak, but on the other hand you are saying what everyone else says and that I have to 'accept' them as 'Gospel' because the 'majority' with better knowledge do. I'm sorry but I cant put my soul in the hands of something or someone with all the knowledge in the world just because 'the majority' agree. My 'heart' says Trust God's Words because man's words are prone to error and misuse.

Now for those who WILL misunderstand everything I have said:
In simple terms what I am saying is that the sunnah of the prophet is the sunnah of ALL prophets and is the sunnah of God and found IN QURAN

The prophet WILL have said other WISE THINGS, he was a prophet after all. But many of those WISE WORDS are lost/mixed up with too many UNWISE words that I, in my opinion, cannot take as SAID by him as they dont MATCH Quran OR the sunnah and have no rellevance in Islam as MANY will be to do with the TIME and PLACE and CULTURE of the people.

Take for instance FGM. This was a practice long before Islam. There is a hadith that is used NOW to PROVE that it IS Islamic and it is STILL practiced today. The hadith says "when the circumcized part meets the circumcized part ghusl is necessary." meaning after sex have a bath. This is common sense but the people then needed to be told. It has nothing to do with Islam that they were both circumcized. There are also other hadith that said if you HAVE to then only take a small piece. It was a cultural tradition among all Arabs, even Christian ones, It is NOT Islam and there is NO evidence that the prophets daughters were cut, but it is still used by 'those who follow the traditions of their fathers' and think it as a part of Islam because there are hadith about it. These are the kind of misunderstandings in hadith that happen all the time. you know probably 99.9% of arguements in Islam are about hadith not Quran.

Not everything the prophet said was about Islam, much of it was about culture and tradition of his time. The ONLY thing that is able to 'move with the times' and 'across all cultures' is QURAN.
 

---

Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
 

quote:

---

too many UNWISE words that I, in my opinion, cannot take as SAID by him as they dont MATCH Quran OR the sunnah and have no rellevance in Islam

---

quote:

---

The prophet WILL have said other WISE THINGS, he was a prophet after all. But many of those WISE WORDS are lost/mixed up with too many UNWISE words

---

The Prophet says many unwise things in the Quran as well. Why you discard the hadith with the devil up the nose but not the Quranic verse that says that Jews were transformed into apes and swine?

The early Muslims did not need narrations about Muhammad because they had seen him themselves. But soon after he died, they went to Aisha and others asking about him so they could emulate him. There is no logical reason to believe that his companions started lying from day one and never said a word of truth. Yes exaggerations happen, memories fail and stories get twisted, but despite all that it is not difficult to find an approximation of what actually happened, especially on major events like assasinations, wars and mass murders. If we had a different version completely opposite to what we have, you would have a point. But what we have is all there is. There is no other version of the history of Islam and Muhammad.

If 99% of ahadith are fabricated, how do you know that the Quran has not been tampered, especially when the same Muslims who were so dishonest as to fabricate thousands of hadiths on Muhammad and were left unchecked were the very ones who transmitted the Quran? In fact, Rashed Khalifa admitted that the Quran has been tampered. http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

If the Quran has been tampered it throws out the claim that God has promised to preserve it. 15:9 The myth of inviolability of the Quran has been shattered. What guarantees we have that it has not been tampered more than once?
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 
undercover you deliberately misunderstand what I actually said.

I have not said that the companions started lying from day one. I have not said they lied at all. Just because I dont accept hadith written by a man born hundreds of years later in a different country to where it all happened as fact, does not mean i am saying the companions lied. I am questioning whether they were in fact FROM the companions and the prophet at ALL. We only 'know' that the companions went to aisha BECAUSE of these hadith, what if they are ALL fabricated?

What if certain rulers didnt like how Islam was spreading and how it changed many of their ways of making money, marrying, owning women, etc. What if they decided to blacken the good name of Islam from the 'inside' by inventing hadith? There were a few verses in 'The Book' they could play on. 'The ones that say follow Allah and His prophet' 'obey the messenger' etc. It would be easy to do. They even had a few 'sayings' of the prophet to add to these to make it acceptable, no one would dare question it if they said it was from the prophet would they? Just like now. As you say there is no other version of the history.

The Quran is a different thing altogether. It is From God. As for the companions tampering with it, they were the first 'Quranists', it was their 'BOOK' and they understood the importance of what they had, and no they were not dishonest or liars, which is why I dispute those rediculous hadith that someone said was from them.

Rashad Khalifa admitted the Quran was tampered with did he? he also claimed to be the messenger of the covenant too, did you know that?? he had to take out the last 2 verses of sura 9 to make his mathematical miracle 'fit' didnt he, thats why he said it had been tampered with, because it didnt fit his theory.
 

---

Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
 
What if they decided to blacken the good name of Islam from the 'inside' by inventing hadith?

Those were the very same people who preserved the Quran.

Also, this hadith from Bukhari clearly shows that Muhammad never made a final collection of the Quran, for when Abu Bakr was asked to collect the Quran into one volume he said, "How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?" Since there was no authorised Quran there was some confusion amongst the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Quran.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 509, p. 477; book 61
Narrated Zaid-bin-Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yama-ma had been killed (i.e. a number of the prophets companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said to me, "Umar has come to me and said: `Casualties were heavy among the Qurra of the Qur'an (ie those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the battle of Yama-ma, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra on other battle fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected'. I said to Umar, `How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?' Umar said, `By Allah, that is a good project'. Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest (persuaded me) for it and I began to realise the good idea which Umar had realised.

"Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them." (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p. 23).
 

---

Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
 
Those who deny the Hadiths use these verses of the Quran to prop up their claims.

Q. 12: 111
“In their history verily there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.

And

Q. 31: 6
“And of mankind is he who payeth for mere pastime of discourse, that he may mislead from Allah's way without knowledge, and maketh it the butt of mockery. For such there is a shameful doom”.

As the above verses reveal, Muhammad was ridiculed by his contemporaries and his Quran was called “non-sense stories” and “idle tales”. So in these verses he is defending his revelation arguing that Quran is not a tale (Hadith) invented by people or a frivolous discourse. He compares his words to the idle tales (Hadiths) of the people of his time and claims that they mislead men while the Quran guides them.

When Muhammad said these words, Bukhari, Muslim and other Hadith collectors were not yet born. In the above verse, the prophet is rejecting the tales or the Hadiths of the unbelievers not the stories of his own life that were not yet told. But since in referring to the idle stories of his contemporaries he used the word “Hadith”, which in Arabic means story, tale or tradition the deniers of the Hadith have taken it as the proof that Muhammad was against the Hadith.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 

quote:

---

What if they decided to blacken the good name of Islam from the 'inside' by inventing hadith?

Those were the very same people who preserved the Quran.

---

quote:

---

Those were the very same people who preserved the Quran.

Also, this hadith from Bukhari clearly shows that Muhammad never made a final collection of the Quran, for when Abu Bakr was asked to collect the Quran into one volume he said, "How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?" Since there was no authorised Quran there was some confusion amongst the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Quran.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 509, p. 477; book 61
Narrated Zaid-bin-Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yama-ma had been killed (i.e. a number of the prophets companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said to me, "Umar has come to me and said: `Casualties were heavy among the Qurra of the Qur'an (ie those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the battle of Yama-ma, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra on other battle fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected'. I said to Umar, `How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?' Umar said, `By Allah, that is a good project'. Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest (persuaded me) for it and I began to realise the good idea which Umar had realised.

"Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them." (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p. 23).

---

quote:

---

Ayisha why didn't you address this post from UNDERCOVER?"

---

quote:

---

As you are now misquoting me I will go back to not reading your posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:


Muhammed would not have 'added' words that are not in Quran but he would have 'explained' things in a different 'way' to those who didnt understand the actual Words in 'that time'. Now looking at the language used in those days to the language used now in life. If I take my own language as an example and I was trying to pass on Quran and explain to a group of teenagers on a street corner in UK I would use 'Allah is da Big Guy man, da Boss, there aint nuffin Bigger than Him man, He is kickin, He is BADDDDD, nuff said' Now if that was written down and used in say 200 years when language had 'changed' would it be taken as Allah is Bad?? Would 'nuff said' be taken as the 'final word'? YES for those that follow my 'hadith' and NO for those who stick with the BOOK. But all I am doing is using words that the people will 'understand' today. Those that read the Words in The Book will see that is not what I meant because the 'example' is there and will then 'explain' it in a way for their 'time'. They will see that Allah is Great and not Baaddddd. But there will also be those who will desperately hang on to my 'hadith' because I said it 200 years or so previously. Am I getting my point accross???

---

Yes, perfectly. I actually think it's a good example.

If I try to distinguish for my own understanding what might be part of religion and what might be part of culture + tradition, I sometimes try to imagine what Muhammad would do if he was to live in a totally different time and place, how we would dress, act, behave and speak. I am sure it would be completely suitable for the time and place he was in.

For example ... if he lived in NYC in the year 2005, would he dress in a gallabeya and sandals? Or would he wear Jeans or a suit? Would he use a miswak to clean his teeth, or would he use the best available electric toothbrush? Would he ride on a camel or use a taxi and a plane?

If he had been born into a tribe of Eskimos, would the scholars of hadith claim all of us have to be wrapped up in fur, no matter where we live? Probably ... and they would also tell us it's sunnah to wash your behind with snow after going to the bathroom, no matter whether this is applicable in our lifes or not.

If I think about those things it becomes crystal-clear for me that we HAVE to adapt certain things to our own time and culture, otherwise we are missing the deeper meaning and get stuck trying to observe rituals and bizarre rules.


Btw, your comment reminded me of this:


JIL: Don’t you see that the Quran’s permission for polygamy reflects the culture of seventh century Arabs?

BARLAS: There are two comments I could make about that. One is that the Quran is both particular and universal and I always make that claim side by side. It is particular in the sense that its first audience were seventh century Arabs and nobody should pretend that that was not the case. In addition, since the Quran was directly addressing seventh century Arabs it is spoken in a language and in a way that was relevant to those people’s lives. But the Quran is also universal. The concept of sexual modesty, for example, is a universal concept in the Quran, while the particular mode of just is a particular instance of Arab culture. Therefore, I think it is quite possible to distinguish between what is universal in the Quran and what is particular.


from: http://islamlib.com/en/page.php?page=article&id=854
 

---

Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
 
The commentary of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on the Qur’aan is of two types:

1 – Explaining things that are mentioned in general terms in the Holy Qur’aan, such as the five daily prayers, their times, prostration, bowing and all other rulings.

2 – Adding rulings to the rulings of the Qur’aan, such as the prohibition on being married to a woman and to her paternal or maternal aunt at the same time.
 

---

Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus):
The commentary of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on the Qur’aan is of two types:

1 – Explaining things that are mentioned in general terms in the Holy Qur’aan, such as the five daily prayers, their times, prostration, bowing and all other rulings.

2 – Adding rulings to the rulings of the Qur’aan, such as the prohibition on being married to a woman and to her paternal or maternal aunt at the same time.

---