We will tell you the story of a great Muslim woman; we hope that you will find what you are looking for, and that this will be a light to guide you to the path of Truth.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
how is this showing that there IS respect to women? Do you mean just because he told the story??
Posted by crisálida (Member # 13923) on :
I am just going to read this, but why do they feel the need to put this:
"Response to a request from a kaafir woman for a story of a great Muslim woman"
any thoughts on my topic in relationship section would be appreciated Posted by crisálida (Member # 13923) on :
a strange story, I'm not sure how it shows respect for women, it seems more about how she put the needs of her husband before her own, unless she wanted to have another child and thought that this might not happen if he learns of his sons death. Why would she need to have kept her grief inside? i'm not sure I understand
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by crisálida: Why would she need to have kept her grief inside? i'm not sure I understand
A baby dies. The mother does not share her grief with the father, instead her son is lying in his bed, dead and covered, while people are having dinner in another room. Then she dolls herself up and sleeps with her husband in order to *make* a new one. And only then does she tell him that their child died.
I'm not sure I understand either. Why would she not share with the father immediately? Why this charade which surely must have caused her immense pain???
This story made me incredibly sad. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
It just makes it that not only women are seen as 'cattle' but also babies are too and that 'making another to replace it' is normal, its NOT, no new baby can replace a dead child.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Posted by crisálida (Member # 13923) on :
I'm glad I am not the only one who found this a very strange story, by all accounts the husband did too...
"He became angry and said, “You left me until I did what I did (i.e., had intercourse), then you tell me that my son has died!” "
to use that as an example of a woman not facing restrictions is even more bizarre, she chose to intentionally mislead her husband, cook dinner for guests, make a baby, then tell him - for his own good...how did she get to decide this was for his own good? how could she even have done all this? the only 'freedom from restriction' that i see in that story is the woman deciding what was right for her husband, which would surely be wrong?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
not only all that but when new replacement baby comes she doesnt even feed it and leaves it crying of hunger all night!!
No sorry, that does NOT show any respect for women OR for GOD OR for the prophet OR for ISLAM.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by crisálida: I'm glad I am not the only one who found this a very strange story
If he wanted to tell the story of a great Muslim woman, why did he not chose to talk about Khadija's strength, intelligence, talent for business, religious dedication and her love of and support for Muhammad? Why did he not tell a story about Ayisha's courage? Why did he not tell the wonderful story of the queen of Sheba who made difficult and right decisions for all of her people after her powers of insight and intuition made her see the right way?
Why are the stories about Muslim women we read on this site (or that we get in mails by *well meaning* Muslim friends, colleagues and acquaintances) in most cases about women suffering and being submissive to their husbands?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
talk about rabbid dogs..my my
Posted by crisálida (Member # 13923) on :
Perhaps that is what many men consider a 'good woman' after all she is attending to their needs...If they tell a story of a woman who is achieving something without the aid of a man, the first question the man will ask is 'why is a woman doing it instead of a man? a man should have been the hero of this story' - sorry guys, not meaning to be sexist but i do think men are generally not that interested in hearing about strong women stories, it doesn't fit with the image of the caring, self sacrificing, attentive woman that they hold in their brain Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: not only all that but when new replacement baby comes she doesnt even feed it and leaves it crying of hunger all night!!
I don't understand this part either.
So she does not feed her newborn because she wants "the first thing to enter the child’s mouth to be food from the Prophet". But why? The Prophet, no matter what a great man, was a human being, so what benefit would it have to neglect her newborn the food it needs for a whole night? What is so special about food that the prophet has chewed beforehand? What effect does she believe would it have on her child?
The text even states: "this was a sign of her great faith, because the woman’s natural instinct is to hasten to feed the baby as soon as he is born".
Why is this supposed to be a good example of "the effect Islam had on the hearts of Muslim women and how the religion of Allaah bore fruits of righteous deeds and good lives."? Denying yourself the right to grieve properly, denying your newborn child the right to be fed properly, ignoring all your instincts and your inner voice is a "sign of great faith"? Why???
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:So she does not feed her newborn because she wants "the first thing to enter the child’s mouth to be food from the Prophet". But why? The Prophet, no matter what a great man, was a human being, so what benefit would it have to neglect her newborn the food it needs for a whole night? What is so special about food that the prophet has chewed beforehand? What effect does she believe would it have on her child?
This is all part of the inflicted 'divinity' of the prophet Muhammed. Muslims like these raise the status of the prophet from 'man' to something higher in their attempts to make us adhere to the hadith and beleive God sent something other than Quran with him. They imply because of this action the child grew to have no one better than him and he died a martyr.
'tis all part of the brainwashing Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Don't you women know that the sweat of the prophet muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam smelled like perfume?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: They imply because of this action the child grew to have no one better than him and he died a martyr.
What I've heard and read about the prophet so far, he was a very gentle and caring person who loved children. So I'm wondering ... would he have let a newborn suffer for a whole night? Would he approve if someone did? What was his reaction when the woman told him ... or didn't she?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: talk about rabbid dogs.
Sad Dogs! Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
What did I learn from this Story?
A faithful patient woman is genius. This woman the companion generation( Al-salaf) is a wonderful model for all wives and all men. Today, Allah wanted her to be honoured even after 1400 of her Death by making me reach that link and post it her.
Allah tried her and she succeeded in the Test. It is not the only one to learn from. There are millions of stories like this from where Human can learn.
Posted by crisálida (Member # 13923) on :
Joueur - But learn what???
Are you saying its o.k to withold essential information from your husband? for what reason? What exactly was her reason for not telling him as soon as he came home and asking the guests to leave?, why did they have to try for another baby straight away to 'replace' the boy who was lying dead in the next room??
what is genius or patient about this? surely patience would be to grieve and wait for another baby?
I really dont get it...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus):
What did I learn from this Story?
A faithful patient woman is genius. This woman the companion generation( Al-salaf) is a wonderful model for all wives and all men.
So she does not feed her newborn because she wants "the first thing to enter the child’s mouth to be food from the Prophet". But why?
What is so special about food that the prophet has chewed beforehand?
What effect does she believe would it have on her child?
Why is this supposed to be a good example of "the effect Islam had on the hearts of Muslim women and how the religion of Allaah bore fruits of righteous deeds and good lives."?
Denying yourself the right to grieve properly, denying your newborn child the right to be fed properly, ignoring all your instincts and your inner voice is a "sign of great faith"? Why???
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
We learn how to handle a hard problem . We learn how to be merciful to our husband or wife. We learn to be true believer with full trust on Allah.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
To answer your question, Dalia, I need a lot of times but I am very interested in your questions.
she does not feed her newborn because she wants "the first thing to enter the child’s mouth to be food from the Prophet". But why?
The companions of the Prophet did Love him because he was The prophet whom Allah sends to light up their hearts by Islam. Any thing from the prophet of Allah is a valuable thing. Their used to take their children to the prophet.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
[quote]He asked, “How is my son?” She said, “O Abu Talhah, from the time he fell sick, he has never been as calm as he is now, and I hope that he is resting.” (She spoke vaguely so as not to upset him; this was not a lie. She was referring to the calmness of death and the child finding relief from the pain of his sickness, but her husband took it to mean that the child’s condition had improved). She brought the meal and they all ate dinner, then the people left. Then he went to bed and lay down, and she got up and put on perfume and adorned herself, making herself more beautiful than she ever had before. (This was a sign of her patience and great faith in the will and decree of Allaah. She was seeking reward from Allaah and concealing her feelings, hoping that she would become pregnant that night to make up for the loss of her child). ............
In the morning, he did ghusl (full ablution) then he went to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and prayed with him, and told him what had happened. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “May Allaah bless you for last night.” She conceived a child (thus the Prophet’s prayer for them was answered).
firstly, it WAS a lie no matter how flowery you make it
secondly, a woman loses a BABY, a child she has carried, gave birth to and fed dies. She makes herself look good for her husband before telling him his son is dead?
Then he prays with the prophet, BEFORE telling him his son is dead, then the prophet tells him his wife is pregnant with replacement baby and we are told this is what the prophet had prayed for?? HOW? he didnt know about the death until AFTER the prayer
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
If he wanted to tell the story of a great Muslim woman, why did he not chose to talk about Khadija's strength, intelligence, talent for business, religious dedication and her love of and support for Muhammad?
Why did he not tell a story about Ayisha's courage?
Why did he not tell the wonderful story of the queen of Sheba who made difficult and right decisions for all of her people after her powers of insight and intuition made her see the right way? Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Why do not they Love the prophet ? If even the animal and plant did love him. * The crying of the tree trunk when the prophet left it * The camel speaking and seeking refuge in Prophet Muhammad
* The speaking of the wolf and his testimony that Prophet Muhammad is the true prophet of Allah.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
If he wanted to tell the story of a great Muslim woman, why did he not chose to talk about Khadija's strength, intelligence, talent for business, religious dedication and her love of and support for Muhammad? Why did he not tell a story about Ayisha's courage?
Why did he not tell the wonderful story of the queen of Sheba who made difficult and right decisions for all of her people after her powers of insight and intuition made her see the right way?
This is What Allah wanted to come in his mind. Allah knows best. Your questions are sometimes strange to me but I will ISA reply by what Allah wants to be in my mind.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Ayisha Questions
firstly, it WAS a lie no matter how flowery you make it.
No, it is not a lie Ayisha
a woman loses a BABY, a child she has carried, gave birth to and fed dies. She makes herself look good for her husband before telling him his son is dead?
It is really astonishing. This faithful woman could hide all that sadness and got over it. She also defeated the despair. This shows you how powerful The female companions were. Indeed, Men and women have to learn from female companions a lot of lessons in patience and tolerance .
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Then he prays with the prophet, BEFORE telling him his son is dead, then the prophet tells him his wife is pregnant with replacement baby and we are told this is what the prophet had prayed for?? HOW? he didnt know about the death until AFTER the prayer
The prophet muhammed?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Don't you women know that the sweat of the prophet muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam smelled like perfume?
so does my husbands to me. Ever heard of pheromones??
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Then he prays with the prophet, BEFORE telling him his son is dead, then the prophet tells him his wife is pregnant with replacement baby and we are told this is what the prophet had prayed for?? HOW? he didnt know about the death until AFTER the prayer
The prophet muhammed?
sorry was there another one around that the father of the dead baby was praying with at the time?? Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
quote:If he wanted to tell the story of a great Muslim woman, why did he not chose to talk about Khadija's strength, intelligence, talent for business, religious dedication and her love of and support for Muhammad?
Khadijah was born in the year 555 C.E. By the time she reached the age of forty she had attained quite a reputation for herself. She was known as a wealthy, business woman. She was a wealthy business women long before she met Muhammad. Prior to marring Muhammad she had made a fortune running her own trading business and had many men at her service. Doesn’t this prove that there are fewer opportunities in Islamic world for women than what Khadijah had in a pagan world? Can women succeed in any Islamic country the way Khadijah succeeded in a pagan society? Was there a single woman after Khadijah in any Islamic country during these 1400 years that has rivaled her success? If not, why not?
Women in pagan Arabia had more rights than women who lived during and after Muhammad. Muhammad took away many of their rights.
This is evidenced from the following hadith:
Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 648: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: I had been eager to ask 'Umar about the two ladies from among the wives of the Prophet regarding whom Allah said (in the Qur'an saying): If you two (wives of the Prophet namely Aisha and Hafsa) turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet likes) (66.4), till performed the Hajj along with 'Umar (and on our way back from Hajj) he went aside (to answer the call of nature) and I also went aside along with him carrying a tumbler of water. When he had answered the call of nature and returned. I poured water on his hands from the tumbler and he performed ablution. I said, "O Chief of the believers! ' Who were the two ladies from among the wives of the Prophet to whom Allah said:
'If you two return in repentance (66.4)? He said, "I am astonished at your question, O Ibn 'Abbas. They were Aisha and Hafsa."
Then 'Umar went on relating the narration and said. "I and an Ansari neighbor of mine from Bani Umaiya bin Zaid who used to live in 'Awali Al-Medina, used to visit the Prophet in turns. He used to go one day, and I another day. When I went I would bring him the news of what had happened that day regarding the instructions and orders and when he went, he used to do the same for me. We, the people of quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the ansar, we noticed that the ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the ansari women. Once i shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and i disliked that she should answer me back.She said, 'Why do you take it ill that I retort upon you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet retort upon him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day till night.' What she said scared me and I said to her, 'Whoever amongst them does so, will be a great loser.'..
As you see here Umar is complaining that while the people of Quraish, used to have “authority” over their women, since they came to Medina they noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men.
Mecca was a religious hub. In all religious centers, often fanaticism overrides commonsense and wherever religion has a stronger grip, women are discriminated. Mecca was no exception. It was natural that women in Mecca had a lower status than their Jews and Ansari counterparts and when they encountered the liberty that the women of Medina enjoyed, they wanted it too. This of course did not sit well with Umar and Muhammad. The above conversation between these two central figures of Islam clearly shows that they were not pleased to see their wives getting used and enjoying the taste of freedom.
Arabs were not used to write their history. Very little is left of their pre Islamic culture and way of life. What the Muslim historian wrote of that time is all derogatory calling it the days of ignorance "jahiliya" and claiming that until the advent of Islam they were barbarians, who buried their daughters alive and were constantly in war. They say that women prior to Islam were worth less than camels and it was the Prophet who gave them the status of human being. The above hadith however tell us a different story. We can see that Arab women everywhere, except in Mecca, had more rights that Islam took them away. And it shows that the dismal treatment of women in Islam is not a Divine mandate but is how the Qurash used to treat their women. The Prophet being from Quraish himself was used to that kind of women abuse and to him that was the right way. Naturally he projected his is bias against women in his religion and his book.
Apart from Khadija, we also know that there were other women in pre-Islamic days who not only took part in the affairs of Mecca by the side of their men; they also participated in business ventures without their men being involved in them. They, moreover, often exercised considerable influence as prophetesses or as poetesses. At the annual fairs in the neighborhood of Mecca, particularly at the fair of Oqhad, women are known to have entered along with men in poetic contests and recited their price-winning poems before the public.
The above observations provide us a glimpse of the extent of freedom that the women of Arabia used to enjoy before the dawn of Islam and negate the claim of the Muslim doctors who tell us that it was Islam, which has granted women those freedoms with which they have been living their lives in our modern time. In reality, the contrary is true. It is, in truth, Islam, which has snatched away much of women’s previous freedom and liberties. After Islam, when Muslims started to put into practice their prophet’s teachings, women were discarded and were relegated to second class citizens.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Then he prays with the prophet, BEFORE telling him his son is dead, then the prophet tells him his wife is pregnant with replacement baby and we are told this is what the prophet had prayed for?? HOW? he didnt know about the death until AFTER the prayer
The prophet muhammed?
sorry was there another one around that the father of the dead baby was praying with at the time??
To be honest, I know something but I am not sure of the answer. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): The companions of the Prophet did Love him because he was The prophet whom Allah sends to light up their hearts by Islam. Any thing from the prophet of Allah is a valuable thing. Their used to take their children to the prophet.
It still doesn't make any sense to me. You are praising this woman for making a newborn suffer because of her love for the prophet. Sorry, to me this sounds suspiciously like shirk. The prophet was there to reveal things to people, to help them on their way to discovering the truth. Modelling your behaviour on him is one thing -- but believing that even the food that he has chewed before has miraculous properties is superstition imo, not a sign of love or faith. It's like saying his saliva, his sweat, his sperm and his urine are holy.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): a woman loses a BABY, a child she has carried, gave birth to and fed dies. She makes herself look good for her husband before telling him his son is dead?
It is really astonishing. This faithful woman could hide all that sadness and got over it. She also defeated the despair. This shows you how powerful The female companions were. Indeed, Men and women have to learn from female companions a lot of lessons in patience and tolerance .
What tells you that this woman "got over the sadness" within such a short time? Which part of the story indicates this? And if she did, would that really be a good thing?
The way I read the story she denies herself the sadness and the grieving; that's different from "overcoming".
Also, what is so admirable about a parent getting over the loss of a child within 24 hours or so?
As you might happen to know, grieving has different stages, as I'm sure every person on here who has ever lost a loved one can tell you. It is important to live through all those stages and completely acknowledge and accept them before a person can finally be able to let go of the grief.
If this story was "a lesson in patience and tolerance" it would maybe have shown how woman and husband together overcome their grief and help each other during this difficult time. It might show how they don't hasten to *replace* the child but put their trust in God that they will be blessed with a new one once they are ready for it. And so on ...
I'm sorry, but the image I get when reading this story is just sad and very creepy to me: a woman cooking dinner while her dead baby lies in another room; putting makeup, perfume and sexy underwear on and trying to seduce her husband while her baby just died hours earlier. To me it's a picture of denial, of incredible sadness, of a husband and a wife who are not emotionally close enough to share such a life-shattering event properly. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:You are praising this woman for making a newborn suffer because of her love for the prophet. Sorry, to me this sounds suspiciously like shirk. The prophet was there to reveal things to people, to help them on their way to discovering the truth. Modelling your behaviour on him is one thing -- but believing that even the food that he has chewed before has miraculous properties is superstition imo, not a sign of love or faith. It's like saying his saliva, his sweat, his sperm and his urine are holy.
I agree. there are people here who are doing exactly what Allah warned against, which is the same as happened before. Muhammed was a MAN. Be careful how and WHO you 'worship'.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Muhammad was a man, but Muhammad is the subject of our discussion. He claimed to be a prophet of God and pretended that Allah praises him.
"And surely thou hast sublime morals" (Q. 68:4).
“Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow" (Q. 33:21).
We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures. (Q. 21:107). Verily this is the word of a most honorable Messenger, (Q. 81.19)
Since these claims are made in the Quran and since the character, honesty and state of the mind of Muhammad are key to giving any credibility to the Quran, we cannot ignore him and his character in our discussion of the Quran.
Therefore the character of Muhammad is important. Those above verses are the claims of the Quran. Shouldn’t we analyze those claims?
If Muhammad was just a mailman bringing to us a book sealed and signed from God and we all could see that the book is actually written and signed by God himself then you would be right. The Character of the mailman would have been irrelevant. However the Quran was not written by God. It was allegedly revealed to Muhammad. Those words came out of the mouth of Muhammad. Therefore we cannot overlook the character of the messenger. What if he was a liar? You take for granted that Muhammad was a truthful messenger of God and that Quran is the book of God even before we have a chance to study that book. The conclusion therefore is pre drawn. That is hardly a logical or a scientific approach.
Then again if you part from such assumption that Quran is the book revealed by God, what else is left to discuss? Are we to become judges of the words of God?
Our first task must be to establish whether Quran is from God or not and the first question we have to ask ourselves is whether the messenger is trustworthy or not.
Zhuang zi said "The wise man teaches not by words but by actions." And Muslims tell me the actions of Muhammad are irrelevant and what counts are his words? That even though he lived like a criminal he can teach us to live like saints? Look at the sainthood of the Islamic world. Those who follow him most are...? If you are a good person it's because you deny the hadidth, reinterpret the Quran and its obvious meanings and refuse to live the way Muhammad lived or follow his examples. But are you truly a Muslim?
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Dalia, You insist to measure Things according to your own culture and way of living. You need to read more about Sira to get used to the way of living the companions lead to understand their stories. To Teach you them, I need a lot of time and efforts and we will be in a lot of discussions because you and Ayisha are talking a lot and asking a lot.
The aim of this thread was to show you that Sheikh Muhammed salih Al-Munajjid does respect women and the point is proven and I think It reaches you.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Cultural Expression of Love and respect to the Prophet does not mean They made the prophet a partner with Allah ( shirk).
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus):
The aim of this thread was to show you that Sheikh Muhammed salih Al-Munajjid does respect women and the point is proven and I think It reaches you.
No the point is not proven at all Joueur. Just because this Sheikh has told a story about a woman does not prove he has any respect for them. I can tell a story about a unicorn but it doesnt make them real.
Sorry joueur you will have to find something else from this sheikh to 'prove' he respects women as this one doesn't do it.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus):
The aim of this thread was to show you that Sheikh Muhammed salih Al-Munajjid does respect women and the point is proven and I think It reaches you.
No the point is not proven at all Joueur. Just because this Sheikh has told a story about a woman does not prove he has any respect for them. I can tell a story about a unicorn but it doesnt make them real.
Sorry joueur you will have to find something else from this sheikh to 'prove' he respects women as this one doesn't do it.
I think Joueur has proven the point. I believe that the shaykh does respect women and Islaam and there are others here who believes he does also.
Just because the you (Ayisha), some Quraniyoon, and some kaffireen say he doesn't, doesn't mean he doesn't.
Joueur don't waste your time debating with these people. They have their own agenda and they will never agree with you. Just leave them with that which they are upon after you have presented your position and move on to other issues.
That's my opinion and like them I'm entitled to it.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Yes sands you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but joueur posted this to 'prove' that this 'sheikh' respected women. This does not in any way 'prove' that and various people with NO AGENDA have picked HOLES in it. If you want to provide 'proof' there should be no way to pick ANY holes in it, thats what makes it 'proof'.
You and joueur will of course see things differently because you 'believe' blindly that this 'sheikh' respects women, others wanted the 'proof' that the OP claimed it had.
The OP wasnt posted for 'Muslims' only, it was for those of us that can see quite plainly from the 'sheikhs' other 'rediculous fatwa' that this 'sheikh' is misogynistic in his views.
Hence, we are still waiting for 'proof' that he isn't.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus):
The aim of this thread was to show you that Sheikh Muhammed salih Al-Munajjid does respect women and the point is proven and I think It reaches you.
No the point is not proven at all Joueur. Just because this Sheikh has told a story about a woman does not prove he has any respect for them. I can tell a story about a unicorn but it doesnt make them real.
I totally agree.
I don't understand your point, joueur. Mr al Munajjid says that women are inferior to men, that they are less intelligent, less wise, less perfect, their brains are inferior, they have to be beaten and mutilated and so on. Those statements do NOT show respect at all, and they are there black on white. This story does not in any way nullify those comments. Why do you think it does?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): you and Ayisha are talking a lot and asking a lot.
Sorry if that bothers you but that's how you learn.
I have been brought up to not just accept anything because it's been shoved at me by some authority, but to research and question. The questions I asked in this thread are not *strange*, btw. They might seem strange to you because you have taken this story at face value and not thought about all its implications.
You accuse me of not being broad minded enough to understand the story, or to understand anything from another culture or time. But I could throw this argument right back at you. I am not the only one who has expressed discomfort with this story. I have tried to explain why, and I have said which things I find strange or disturbing. If you were as open-minded as you want me to be, you would at least try to answer those questions or try to understand what we are saying. Instead you ignore questions and claim anyone who has a different understanding of the story than you didn't *get it*. That's not the way to have a meaningful discussion.
Did you never have to analyze stories or books in school and university? It's not about one person telling you what you are supposed to be thinking and what is right or wrong. It's about different people giving their different understanding and trying to get to the deeper meaning by discussing those different perceptions and opinions.
Posted by Yowza (Member # 14400) on :
Very well said Dalia!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Joueur, this story is saying this woman forbade her new baby any food until she had seen the prophet, so this sheikh is actually saying that she thought more of the prophet than Allah, as Allah says;
006.140 YUSUFALI: Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Ayisha, Allah ( azz wa Jall) honours the Sahaba ( the companions) of the prophet in Quran and honours the people who are following them in the following Verse. Do you think you will be better in knowledge than The companions? Do you think you can Judge Them after Allah had declared his pleasure of them?
[And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajiroon (those who migrated from Makkah to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (the citizens of Al-Madinah who helped and gave aid to the Muhajiroon) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.] (9:100)
The following verse is for people rejecting the Prophet decision ( in which He approves what that faithful female companion did)
(4:65) But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Dalia, These Verse are for you
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.
And if We had ordered them (saying), "Kill yourselves (i.e. the innnocent ones kill the guilty ones) or leave your homes," very few of them would have done it; but if they had done what they were told, it would have been better for them, and would have strengthened their (Faith);
And indeed We should then have bestowed upon them a great reward from Ourselves.
And indeed We should have guided them to a Straight Way.
And whoso obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace, of the Prophets, the Siddiqoon (those followers of the Prophets who were first and foremost to believe in them, like Abu Bakr AsSiddiq), the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are!
Such is the Bounty from Allah, and Allah is Sufficient as AllKnower.
(Quran-Chapter The women)
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
OK ... I should have expected that you would change the subject and try to patronize me instead of honestly trying to answer any of our questions.
This thread has not in any way demonstrated that Mr. Al Munajjid has respect for women. But it has once again proven that those who refuse to think for themselves are not able to have a serious discussion; that they run away from clear words rather than actually facing them.
I still stand by what I said earlier:
Mr al Munajjid says that women are inferior to men, that they are less intelligent, less wise, less perfect, their brains are inferior, they have to be beaten and mutilated and so on. Those statements do NOT show respect at all, and they are there black on white. This story does not in any way nullify those comments.
Thanks for the discussion. Good night.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Mr al Munajjid says that women are inferior to men, that they are less intelligent, less wise, less perfect
How is that un-islamic? Isn't that what the Quran-Ahadith says?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Ayisha, Allah ( azz wa Jall) honours the Sahaba ( the companions) of the prophet in Quran and honours the people who are following them in the following Verse. Do you think you will be better in knowledge than The companions? Do you think you can Judge Them after Allah had declared his pleasure of them?
No joueur im not judging the companions im saying I dont believe that story happened. The prophet or the companions did not go against God and the companions did not treat the prophet as a god either. The verse I quoted said not to withold food that Allah has provided for them from a child. It also says 'inventing lies against Allah' so from that I would take that story as a lie against Allah
006.140 Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
quote:
The following verse is for people rejecting the Prophet decision ( in which He approves what that faithful female companion did)
(4:65) But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.
this verse is nothing to do with that, it is to do with all the laws Allah gave in sura 4, if there was dispute amongst the people regarding those laws then Muhammed would sort it out from the Laws in Quran, read 4:64 before it.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Joueur, dalia is right you are changing the subject and this thread has still not shown in any way that the sheikh has any respect for women, you have purposefully avoided those questions regarding what this man actually does say about women.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
The virtues of Faatimah the daughter of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
Question: I hear that Fatima (ra) and Ali (ra) had a daughter in addition to Hassan (ra) and Hussein (ra), but I know nothing else about her. Could you tell us something about her please, like how her life was, and whether she had any role in Islamic history, etc.
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Faatimah, the daughter of the leader of mankind, Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), al-Qurashiyyah al-Haashimiyyah, Umm al-Hasanayn [the mother of al-Hasan and al-Husayn]. She was born shortly before the beginning of the Mission of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she married ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him) after the battle of Badr.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) loved her and honoured her. She was patient, devoted to Islam, generous, chaste, devout and thankful to Allaah.
When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, she grieved and wept for him, and said, “O my father, to Jibreel we tell the news of his death, O my father, he answered the call of his Lord, O my father, in Paradise is his eternal abode.”
Faatimah’s speech most closely resembled that of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I never saw anyone whose speech more closely resembled that of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) than Faatimah. When she entered upon him, he would stand up to greet her, kiss her and welcome her, and she would do the same for him.”
Faatimah lived for six months after the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). She was buried at night. Al-Waaqidi said: this is the most correct view. He said, al-‘Abbaas prayed (the funeral prayer) for her, and he, ‘Ali and al-Fadl lowered her into her grave. Her sons were al-Hasan and al-Husayn (may Allaah be pleased with them) and her daughters were Umm Kulthoom, who was wed by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), and Zaynab who was wed by ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ja’far ibn Abi Taalib.
It was narrated from Masrooq that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “Faatimah came walking in the manner of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Welcome, O my daughter.’ Then he seated her to his right or to his left, then he said something privately to her and she wept. I said to her, ‘Why are you weeping?’ Then he said something privately to her and she smiled. I said, ‘I have never seen anything like that which I have seen today, of joy so close to grief.’ I asked her what he had said, and she said, ‘I would not disclose the secret of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) passed away, I asked her and she said, ‘He told me, “Jibreel used to review the Qur’aan with me once every year, but this year he has reviewed it with me twice, so I know that my appointed time (of death) is approaching. And you will be the first of my family to join me.” So I wept. Then he said, “Would it not please you to be the leader of the women of Paradise or the women of the believers?” So I smiled.’”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Manaaqib, 3353)
Among the things that prove her virtue is that which was reported in al-Saheehayn from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to pray at the Ka’bah, and Abu Jahl and his companions were sitting there. They said to one another, ‘Who will bring the intestines of the camel of So and so and put it on Muhammad’s back when he prostrates?’ So the most wretched of people went and brought it and waited until the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prostrated, then he put it on his back, between his shoulders. I was watching but I could not help him because I did not have any power. They started laughing and leaning against one another (because of their laughter), and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was prostrating and did not raise his head until Faatimah came and removed it from his back. Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) raised his head, and said, ‘O Allaah, deal with Quraysh,’ three times. They became worried when he prayed against them, because they used to believe that du’aa’s made in that land would be answered…”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 233; Muslim, 3349)
Among her virtues was also that which was narrated in al-Saheehayn, that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Faatimah is a part of me, and whoever angers her, angers me.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3437; Muslim, 4483)
And Allaah knows best.
See Nuzhat al-Fudalaa’ Tahdheeb Siyar A’laam al-Nubalaa’, 1/116
Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
joueur. why dont you answer the questions raised? This man shows no respect to women. It's no good posting stories of the sahabah as he is not really giving an 'opinion' on them, he is just 'relating' stories. He would 'have' to show respect for any of the prophets wives or daughters anyway.
Show us ONE incident where he shows any respect for 'ordinary' women nowdays.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Do you mind giving us a clue why you believe the text in that link nullifies the misogyny and blasphemy of statements such as Allaah has made men superior to women?
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
"Superior" has a lot of meanings , Dalia I think "superior" means greater in quantity. We can interpret this statement according to the fact that Men are commanded to pray more than women as women are excused during the periods. It is not a misogyny or blasphemy statement at all. As I have told you before we have to understand the exact intention of the person before we Judge.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): "Superior" has a lot of meanings , Dalia
Yeah right!
If I read "superior" in conjunction with the following statements there is very little room for interpreting "superior" as "greater in quantity", I'd say:
the gender of men is more perfect than the gender of women.
men are better than women, because the masculine is honour and perfection, whereas the feminine naturally has something lacking physically.
men are better than women in and of themselves
they are superior in physical nature, attitude, status, obedience to the commands of Allaah
men excel women because they have more powers of reason and religious commitment
Men are more intelligent and have a better ability to distinguish right from wrong.
Men have the advantage of being more wise and more capable of management
Scientific and specialized studies have shown that men's minds are more perfect than those of women, and reality and experience bear witness to that.
a man is inherently better than a woman, and he is superior to her because he spends on her.
he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her
men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do.
Allaah has made men superior to women
Women are imperfect
a woman is like a slave or prisoner of her husband
Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason.
women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation.
The husband is the master (sayyid) according to the Book of Allaah
he is more perfect in rational thinking than her in most cases
her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.
The husband is physically stronger and is more wise than the wife.
he is stronger and more able to earn a living
obedience to the husband is obligatory
Let the woman beware of incurring her husband’s wrath because this will lead to Allaah’s being angry with her.
In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from Allaah and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant kaafir sees it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. ... He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly beat his head against the rock of reality.
*shake head in disbelief*
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Your statements are in Bold, Dalia
the gender of men is more perfect than the gender of women.
"Perfect" means "exactly fitting the need in a certain situation " and We can say that Men are more fitting in certain situation than women. It depends on the intention of The sheikh.
Should I reply in each statement in Details. Each statement should be interpreted in the correct intention of the Sheikh? Be careful! Don't get them Wrong.
There are also neutralizing matriarchal points you should mention to make the balance.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Forget it, joueur. I have eyes to read and a brain to think, and I very clearly understand those statements. Please don't embarrass yourself by trying to twist words and claiming that those statements don't mean what they are clearly saying.
Saying that "Allah has made men superior to women" is a very clear blasphemy in my eyes, no ifs and buts. There is no talking away or explaining away statements like this!
Sorry joueur, but reading your last posts seriously reminded me of "The Emperor's New Clothes".
The things this man is saying / writing are so incredible, so disgusting, so wrong, twisted and blatantly derogatory; it is a complete mystery to me how anyone can be able to deny this, excuse it or try to explain it away. I will pray for you that you will be able to open your eyes and stop denying the things that are going wrong one day.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
You just said it.
quote:Saying that "Allah has made men superior to women" is a very clear blasphemy in my eyes
It does mean that you are judging by your eyes which are not an accurate measure.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Joueur, this story is saying this woman forbade her new baby any food until she had seen the prophet, so this sheikh is actually saying that she thought more of the prophet than Allah, as Allah says;
006.140 YUSUFALI: Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
Researchers in rural Ghana, where early initiation of breastfeeding was not the norm, found that babies who started to breastfed in the first hour of life were more likely to survive the neonatal period than those who did not.
• Babies who did not start breastfeeding until after 24 hours of age were 2.5 times more likely to die than babies who started within the first hour of life, whether they were partially or exclusively breastfed.
• 30% of babies in the study were fed solids or other milk before one month of age. These infants were 4 times more likely to die than babies who were exclusively breastfed.
• 16% of newborn deaths could be prevented if newborns were breastfed exclusively from day one.
• 22% of newborn deaths could be prevented if newborns initiated breastfeeding within one hour of birth.
Researches done globally also indicate that:
• 36% of all child deaths are neonatal.
• Neonatal mortality could be reduced by 24% if 99% of infants initiated breastfeeding on day 1 of life and by 31% if 99% of initiation was within the first hour.
• Potentially about 30% of newborn deaths (10% of under-five deaths) might be prevented with universal coverage of breastfeeding initiation within the 1st hour.
Health in Islam is a state of dynamic equilibrium between body, mind and soul (rooh). Imbalance in this equilibrium leads to ill health. The maintenance of this balance is as prescribed in the Qur'an. Allah Ta'ala says:
We send down (stage by stage) of the Qur'an that which is a healing and mercy to those who believe. (17:82)
The words of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) prescribing medicine are specific and yet all encompassing. The Sunnah (way of life or example) pertaining to health are numerous and comprehensive, relating to preventative, curative and restorative aspects of health. There are great lessons in health for us in the Prophet's (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) eating habits, sleeping habits, personal hygiene, fasting and every aspect of life.
The Sunnah of putting something sweet in a newborn's mouth has special pain relieving properties which are proven scientifically.
It is a long established practice among Muslim parents to put a piece of well chewed date (or other available sweet fruit) in the mouth of a new born baby. Muslims do this following the practice of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasallam), believing him to be, as the Qur'an says, sent as a healing and as a mercy to mankind. We may infer from the way which this custom originated that there is a virtue in it. Complimentary to the virtue and pleasure of following the Sunnah (the practice of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) placing a 'sugary substance' inside the mouth of a new born baby dramatically reduces pain sensation and heart rate. An interesting scientific medical study, published in the British Medical Journal (No 6993,10 June 1995), proved beyond any doubt the benefit of giving a newborn child sugar, in order to reduce the feeling of any painful procedure like heel pricking for a blood sample or before circumcision.
The study, entitled 'The analgesic effect of Sucrose in full term infants: a randomise controlled trial', was done by Nora Christopher Wood, Gillian Griffiths and Malcolm Levene, in the post-natal ward in the Leeds General Infirmary in England. 60 healthy infants of gestational age 37-42 weeks and post-natal age of 1-6 days, were randomised to receive 2ml of one of the four solutions: - 12.5% sucrose, 25% sucrose and sterile water (control).
The first group of thirty babies received Sugar syrup before a routine blood test (heel pricking, which is usually painful) done to detect jaundice.
The other 30 babies were given only sterile water as a control group. Placing 2ml of a 25% or 50% sucrose solution on the tongue before pricking the heel significantly reduced the crying time, compared to babies who got water.
In addition, their heart rate returned to normal more quickly. The stronger sugar solution had the greater effect, crying reduced further with increasing concentration of sucrose. From which we may conclude that sucrose (sugar), placed on the tongue may be useful and safe form of analgesia for use with newborn infants.
Blass and Hoffmeyer also showed that 12% solution of inter-oral sucrose significantly reduced the duration of crying in newborn babies subjected in new heel pricking, or circumcision. This study was reported in the Independent newspaper (Friday, 9 June 1995) as well as in the British Medical Journal article.
The practice of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) is recorded in the collections of his sayings and reports about him, of which the most revered are the two Saheeh collections of Bukhari and Muslim: Abu Buradah reported from Abu Moosa (radhiallahu anhu), who said: 'I had a newborn baby, I took him to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) who called him Ibraheem. The Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) chewed a date then he took it and rubbed the inside of the baby's mouth with it.'
The date contains the very high percentage of sugar (70-80%); it has both fructose, and glucose, which have high calorific values, it is easily and quickly digestible, and very helpful to the brain. The date contains 2.2% protein, vitamin A, and it has traces of minerals needed for the body such as potassium, sodium, calcium, iron, manganese and copper.
Potassium, of which percentage is very high, has been found to be very effective for cases of haemorrhage, such as the occasions of birth or circumcision.
We may note that the Sunnah also commends dates for the breaking of the fast in Ramadhaan. Dates should be eaten, if available before the sunset prayer, this is medically and nutritionally the best way and the Sunnah.
The great worth of dates is also indicated in the famous and beautiful passage of the Qur'aan, Surah Maryam: 'And shake towards you the trunk of the palm tree and it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So eat, drink, and be comforted.'
This was the prescription of Allah, the Creator, for Maryam (alayhas salaam) at the time of the birth of Eesa (alayhis salaam), The blessed Prophet of Allah. It was a prescription to make a delivery easy and comfortable.
As in the example we have briefly recorded, we believe further research will confirm for those who still doubt the full worth and truth, the wisdom of the teachings of the Qur'aan and Sunnah.
'We shall show them our signs on the furthest, horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient that your Lord is witness over all things?' (41:53)
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:We send down (stage by stage) of the Qur'an that which is a healing and mercy to those who believe. (17:82)
Muslims do this following the practice of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasallam), believing him to be, as the Qur'an says, sent as a healing and as a mercy to mankind.
What???
The Quran is the mercy and healing, not the prophet.
you missed off the end of the verse joueur, "to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss." so if the prophet was the mercy and the healing, does the end of the verse mean if he stuffed a date in someones mouth who was 'unjust' it would kill them??
3 translations of the verse: 017.082 YUSUFALI: We send down (stage by stage) in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. PICKTHAL: And We reveal of the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy for believers though it increase the evil-doers in naught save ruin. SHAKIR: And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust.
The Quran, the Words contained in it, are a Healing and Mercy.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
The practice of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) is recorded in the collections of his sayings and reports about him, of which the most revered are the two Saheeh collections of Bukhari and Muslim: Abu Buradah reported from Abu Moosa (radhiallahu anhu), who said: 'I had a newborn baby, I took him to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) who called him Ibraheem. The Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) chewed a date then he took it and rubbed the inside of the baby's mouth with it.'
None of this indicates that a newborn should be deprived of food for a long time in order to be given a date instead!
I won't deny that dates are very healthy, I know they are, but that is not the point here.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): You just said it.
quote:Saying that "Allah has made men superior to women" is a very clear blasphemy in my eyes
It does mean that you are judging by your eyes which are not an accurate measure.
Oh, but if Mr. Al Munajjid judges things by his own standards, that's ok? Are you saying his standards are more accurate than mine? If he says most women are stupid, inferior, emotional, in need of mutilation etc., that's *accurate*?
I think the whole point here is that you basically agree with him, so you see nothing wrong with his disgusting statements.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Who can say what is good and what is evil? That is up to the messenger of God to decide.
Muhammad was a moral relativist. For example, the Quran forbids husbands to marry more than four women, but Muhammad received a revelation granting him immunity from this law.
Killing, assisinations, etc are divine if they were practiced by Muhammad and if they advance his cause. If they are practised by non-Muslims they are bad.
“Fight them to eliminate oppression” What oppression? The very existence of people of other beliefs is considered to be oppression. Yet, demanding jizya from non-Muslims is not oppression.
The offspring of moral relativism is hypocrisy.
Many Muslims are genuinely unaware of this duplicity and double standard.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
I wrote (Health in Islam is a state of dynamic equilibrium between body, mind and soul (rooh). Imbalance in this equilibrium leads to ill health. ) Some people among Sahaba neglected somethings related to the Body to increase the soul things.
quote:Oh, but if Mr. Al Munajjid judges things by his own standards, that's ok? Are you saying his standards are more accurate than mine?
You want to Judge according to your standards which does not fit all cultures and actual intentions of people. Is My point still vague?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): You want to Judge according to your standards which does not fit all cultures and actual intentions of people. Is My point still vague?
I see. So you are saying the following statements by Mr Al-Munajjid are objective, free of prejudice and "fit all cultures and actual intentions of people"???
the gender of men is more perfect than the gender of women.
men are better than women, because the masculine is honour and perfection, whereas the feminine naturally has something lacking physically.
men are better than women in and of themselves
they are superior in physical nature, attitude, status, obedience to the commands of Allaah
men excel women because they have more powers of reason and religious commitment
Men are more intelligent and have a better ability to distinguish right from wrong.
Men have the advantage of being more wise and more capable of management
Scientific and specialized studies have shown that men's minds are more perfect than those of women, and reality and experience bear witness to that.
a man is inherently better than a woman, and he is superior to her because he spends on her.
he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her
men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do.
Allaah has made men superior to women
Women are imperfect
a woman is like a slave or prisoner of her husband
Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason.
women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation.
The husband is the master (sayyid) according to the Book of Allaah
he is more perfect in rational thinking than her in most cases
her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.
The husband is physically stronger and is more wise than the wife.
he is stronger and more able to earn a living
obedience to the husband is obligatory
... a man is less patient than a woman when it comes to doing without intercourse. The most disturbing thing for a man is his sexual impulse, so Islam urges women to help their husbands in this regard.
Whether the husband wants to discipline his wife, or forgive her, or take another wife, or divorce her, this is all up to him to choose. Let the woman beware of incurring her husband’s wrath because this will lead to Allaah’s being angry with her.
It is obligatory on slave women and free women alike not to refuse their masters or husbands if they call them, so long as the woman who is called is not menstruating or sick in such a way that intercourse will be harmful to her, or observing an obligatory fast. If she refuses with no excuse, then she is cursed.
She must obey him if he asks her to come to his bed, and that is obligatory upon her. If she refuses to come to his bed, she is a defiant sinner.
God is aware of men's needs. He knows that a man may have just come home, and maybe he desires something or maybe he saw something. He knows what this need is, and this is why he ordered the wife to consent to her husband, even if she is by the stove. Even if she is baking she must consent to him. Moreover, the Prophet Muhammad said to the woman: "Compare yourself to him, he's your paradise and your hell." Imam Ahmad passed this on in his true Hadith. The wife must consent to her husband's wishes and obey him.
The wife in the West is not obligated to do so. Moreover, a wife can be raped by her husband there. They claim that if he has sex with her against her will - this is rape! They consider this rape. They claim she must be willing. They claim that she must want it.
In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from Allaah and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant kaafir sees it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. ... He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly beat his head against the rock of reality.
This is getting really ridiculous; please stop insulting my intelligence, Jouer! Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
More quotes from Mr. Al-Munajjid's site which show his deep respect for women and his wonderful understanding of the female psyche and physiology. Masha'allah!
circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females.
circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women.
Circumcising females is sunnah; it is neither a bad practice or harmful
Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women.
... the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females ...
Hence the fuqaha’ of all madhhabs are agreed that circumcision for both men and woman is part of the fitrah of Islam and one of the symbols of the faith, and it is something praiseworthy.
From the above it is clear that the circumcision of girls – which is the topic under discussion here – is part of the fitrah of Islam, and the way it is to be done is the method that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained. It is not right to abandon his teachings for the view of anyone else, even if that is a doctor, because medicine is knowledge and knowledge is always developing and changing.
Female circumcision is either obligatory or recommended.
There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam
it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour.
In the case of women, it serves a useful purpose which is to reduce desire. This is seeking perfection, not removing something harmful.
With regard to the wisdom behind the circumcision of women, it is to regulate their desire so it will be moderate.
It takes away excessive libido from women
It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.
It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections
It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
the purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words “O son of an uncircumcised woman” are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
Alas, my point is still vague. I will try again. We have to put every statements in its place to get the actual meaning of the writer, we have to question the writer to get the actual meaning before we judge.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
the statements of this writer cannot really give any other meaning joueur, they mean what they say in whatever context you try to dress it up in. Dalia IS questioning the writer.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Thanks, Ayisha. I think I definitely did try to "get the actual meaning" before judging (i.e., I tried to read as much as possible by the author in order to get an idea of his background, opinions etc.); so I'm not sure what that comment above is supposed to mean.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
When God created woman he was working late on the 6th day.
An angel came by and said: “Why spend so much time on that one?”
And the Lord answered: “Have you seen all the specifications I have to meet to shape her?"
“She must be washable, but not made of plastic, have more than 200 moving parts which all must be replaceable and she must function on all kinds of food, she must be able to embrace several kids at the same time, give a hug that can heal anything from a bruised knee to a broken heart and she must do all this with only two hands”.
The angel was impressed.
“Just two hands ... impossible!“ And this is the standard model?! “Too much work for one day ... wait until tomorrow and then complete her“.
“I will not”, said the Lord. “I am so close to complete this creation, which will be the favourite of my heart”.
“She cures herself when sick and she can work 18 hours a day”.
The angel came nearer and touched the woman.
“But you have made her so soft, Lord” “She is soft", said the Lord, “But I have also made her strong. You can’t imagine what she can endure and overcome.“
“Can she think?" the angel asked.
The Lord answered: “Not only can she think, she can reason and negotiate."
The angel touched the womans cheek ... “Lord, it seems this creation is leaking! You have put too many burdens on her.”
“She is not leaking ... it’s a tear” the lord corrected the angel
“What’s it for?" asked the angel.
And the Lord said: “Tears are her way of expressing grief, her doubts, her love, her loneliness, her suffering and her pride.”
This made a big impression on the angel; “Lord, you are genius. You thought of everything. The woman is indeed marvellous!"
Indeed she is! Woman has strengths that amazes man. She can handle trouble and carry heavy burdens. She holds happiness, love and opinions. She smiles when feeling like screaming. She sings when she feels like crying, cries when she is happy and laughs when she is afraid.
She fights for what she belives in. Stands up against injustice. She doesn’t take “no” for an answer, when she can see a better solution. She gives herself so her family can thrive. She takes her friend to the doctor if she is afraid.
Her love is unconditional.
She cries when her kids are victorious. She is happy when her friends do well. She is glad when she hears of a birth or a wedding.
Her heart is broken when a next of kin or friend dies. But she finds the strength to get on with life.
She knows that a kiss and a hug can heal a broken heart.
There is only one thing wrong with her:
She forgets what she is worth.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: When God created woman he was working late on the 6th day.
An angel came by and said: “Why spend so much time on that one?”
And the Lord answered: “Have you seen all the specifications I have to meet to shape her?"
“She must be washable, but not made of plastic, have more than 200 moving parts which all must be replaceable and she must function on all kinds of food, she must be able to embrace several kids at the same time, give a hug that can heal anything from a bruised knee to a broken heart and she must do all this with only two hands”.
The angel was impressed.
“Just two hands ... impossible!“ And this is the standard model?! “Too much work for one day ... wait until tomorrow and then complete her“.
“I will not”, said the Lord. “I am so close to complete this creation, which will be the favourite of my heart”.
“She cures herself when sick and she can work 18 hours a day”.
The angel came nearer and touched the woman.
“But you have made her so soft, Lord” “She is soft", said the Lord, “But I have also made her strong. You can’t imagine what she can endure and overcome.“
“Can she think?" the angel asked.
The Lord answered: “Not only can she think, she can reason and negotiate."
The angel touched the womans cheek ... “Lord, it seems this creation is leaking! You have put too many burdens on her.”
“She is not leaking ... it’s a tear” the lord corrected the angel
“What’s it for?" asked the angel.
And the Lord said: “Tears are her way of expressing grief, her doubts, her love, her loneliness, her suffering and her pride.”
This made a big impression on the angel; “Lord, you are genius. You thought of everything. The woman is indeed marvellous!"
Indeed she is! Woman has strengths that amazes man. She can handle trouble and carry heavy burdens. She holds happiness, love and opinions. She smiles when feeling like screaming. She sings when she feels like crying, cries when she is happy and laughs when she is afraid.
She fights for what she belives in. Stands up against injustice. She doesn’t take “no” for an answer, when she can see a better solution. She gives herself so her family can thrive. She takes her friend to the doctor if she is afraid.
Her love is unconditional.
She cries when her kids are victorious. She is happy when her friends do well. She is glad when she hears of a birth or a wedding.
Her heart is broken when a next of kin or friend dies. But she finds the strength to get on with life.
She knows that a kiss and a hug can heal a broken heart.
There is only one thing wrong with her:
She forgets what she is worth.
so true Dalia, this one always brings a tear to my eyes, its lovely
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): the gender of men is more perfect than the gender of women.
"Perfect" means "exactly fitting the need in a certain situation " and We can say that Men are more fitting in certain situation than women.
I see you used dictionary.com in order to get your definition, but you intentionally ignored the first two definitions:
per·fect
1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
The last definition which you chose does not make sense in the grammatical context of Mr. al-Munajjid's words. If you take a closer look at the definition from dictionary.com, you can see that "perfect" means "exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose" if it is used in conjunction with a noun and referring to a particular task or situation.
The sheikh did NOT say men are more suitable than women for certain tasks in certain situations, he said they are better and more perfect "in and of themselves". He has also made this even clearer by saying that women are lacking in many important things, such as intelligence, religion, wisdom, spirituality, physical capabilites etc.
You're insulting other people's intelligence by trying to use that sort of argument.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Dalia is better than Joueur in and of herself.
Dalia excels Joueur because she has more powers of reason and religious commitment.
She is more intelligent and has a better ability to distinguish right from wrong.
She has the advantage of being more wise and more capable of management.
Scientific and specialized studies have shown that Dalia's mind is more perfect than that of Joueur, and reality and experience bear witness to that.
Allaah has made Dalia superior to Joueur.
She is more perfect in rational thinking than he in most cases
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
I have no problem if this is true. All of us know there are variation in the ability of people to comprehend, think, Judge, speak, reasoning,
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: When God created woman he was working late on the 6th day.
An angel came by and said: “Why spend so much time on that one?”
And the Lord answered: “Have you seen all the specifications I have to meet to shape her?"
“She must be washable, but not made of plastic, have more than 200 moving parts which all must be replaceable and she must function on all kinds of food, she must be able to embrace several kids at the same time, give a hug that can heal anything from a bruised knee to a broken heart and she must do all this with only two hands”.
The angel was impressed.
“Just two hands ... impossible!“ And this is the standard model?! “Too much work for one day ... wait until tomorrow and then complete her“.
“I will not”, said the Lord. “I am so close to complete this creation, which will be the favourite of my heart”.
“She cures herself when sick and she can work 18 hours a day”.
The angel came nearer and touched the woman.
“But you have made her so soft, Lord” “She is soft", said the Lord, “But I have also made her strong. You can’t imagine what she can endure and overcome.“
“Can she think?" the angel asked.
The Lord answered: “Not only can she think, she can reason and negotiate."
The angel touched the womans cheek ... “Lord, it seems this creation is leaking! You have put too many burdens on her.”
“She is not leaking ... it’s a tear” the lord corrected the angel
“What’s it for?" asked the angel.
And the Lord said: “Tears are her way of expressing grief, her doubts, her love, her loneliness, her suffering and her pride.”
This made a big impression on the angel; “Lord, you are genius. You thought of everything. The woman is indeed marvellous!"
Indeed she is! Woman has strengths that amazes man. She can handle trouble and carry heavy burdens. She holds happiness, love and opinions. She smiles when feeling like screaming. She sings when she feels like crying, cries when she is happy and laughs when she is afraid.
She fights for what she belives in. Stands up against injustice. She doesn’t take “no” for an answer, when she can see a better solution. She gives herself so her family can thrive. She takes her friend to the doctor if she is afraid.
Her love is unconditional.
She cries when her kids are victorious. She is happy when her friends do well. She is glad when she hears of a birth or a wedding.
Her heart is broken when a next of kin or friend dies. But she finds the strength to get on with life.
She knows that a kiss and a hug can heal a broken heart.
There is only one thing wrong with her:
She forgets what she is worth.
so true Dalia, this one always brings a tear to my eyes, its lovely
It brought tears to my eyes too.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
* Men are superior at making war and killing his fellow man.
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
so true Dalia, this one always brings a tear to my eyes, its lovely --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It brought tears to my eyes too.
---------------------------------
me three. beautiful Dalia
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): I have no problem if this is true.
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