According to ahl al-sunnah wa l-jamaah God has Eyes, face, hands and fingers and site verses in Quran and hadith to prove that.
038.075 YUSUFALI: (Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
055.027 YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.
These hadith are actually taken to mean God has 2 eyes, although it does not say that in any of them:
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 553: Narrated Ibn Umar:
Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people, glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, "l warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed."
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 241: Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
Allah's Apostle stood up amongst the people and then praised and glorified Allah as He deserved and then he mentioned Ad-Dajjal, saying, "I warn you of him, and there was no prophet but warned his followers of him; but I will tell you something about him which no prophet has told his followers: Ad-Dajjal is one-eyed whereas Allah is not."
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 504: Narrated 'Abdullah:
Ad-Dajjal was mentioned in the presence of the Prophet. The Prophet said, "Allah is not hidden from you; He is not one-eyed," and pointed with his hand towards his eye, adding, "While Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a protruding grape."
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 505: Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Allah did not send any prophet but that he warned his nation of the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). He is one-eyed while your Lord is not one-eyed, The word 'Kafir' (unbeliever) is written between his two eyes."
""Fingers: The prophet said: "The hearts of the children of Adam are all between the two fingers of the fingers of al-Rahman, like a single heart; he turns them how He chooses..." recorded in Sahih Muslim, chapter on Qadar and other sources"" Unfortunately i cannot find that hadith.
So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Why wouldn't God have all those things you mentioned? Humans were made in his ''image'' (Of course there may another explanantion for image.)If He doesn't have any of those I sure wouldn't want to look at Him very long. Of course if one believes in the ''invisible'' aspect of God then there isn't anything to discuss. This way no further conversation need be sought after.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
thanks for your reply grumman. So you dont see anything odd or wrong in thinking God is like us in human form?
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
No. These are figurative expressions to convey a meaning and a feeling to us humans. God describes Himself in verse 42:11 saying
"...Nothing is similar to His likeness..." Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Thank you PI, that is also my personal view. However the book I have here which was given to me when I started my Islamic studies says this is actual fact that Allah has eyes, hands, fingers and a face.
The book is:
Tawhid of Allah's Most Beautiful Names & Lofty Attributes
Under the title it says:
The Belief of Ahl Al-Sunnah wa l-Jamaah
It is written by:
Muhammed ibn Khalifah al-Tamimi who is the associate professor at the Islamic University of Medinah.
Next to the part that says hands, face, eyes and fingers it says 'dhatiyyah' and actually says 'stated below is a proof for each of the attributes mentioned above' then it gives the verses and hadith i mentioned.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Allah has all of the attributes which He describes Himself with in the Quran.
A wonderful book to read along with Shaykh's Muhammad ibn Khalifah Al Tamimi (may Allah preserve him) is (and I'll say it again): Aqeedatul Wasitiyah or Aqeedah Tahawiyah book books talks about the attributes (sifat) of Allah and Allah says he has hands..We don't know what His hands tabaraka ta'ala look like but there is no doubt He azza wa jal has hand, eyes and any other attribute which He has stated in the Quran. Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: We don't know what his hands look like but there is no doubt He azza wa jal has hand, eyes and any other attribute which He has stated in the Quran.
Just to make sure that what I said is clear, I was answering the specific question:
quote:do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
(emphasis added)
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: ^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
so this means nothing?
042.011 YUSUFALI: (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).
It is easier for humans to think of God as another like them as we cannot comprehend exactly 'what' God is, but I think its a big mistake to even try to comprehend what He is, our minds dont reach that level.
Sands does He have a long white beard too? Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands does He have a long white beard too? [/QB]
Read again, again and if you have to over AGAIN:
1. Aqeedatul Wasitiyah: available at Darus Salaam bookstore in English 2. Aqeedatul Tahawiyah: As far as I know only available in the Arabic language 3. Usool Sunnah: Available Online for free. Just look up Imam Ahmed bin hambal (RA) and Usool Sunnah insha Allah
Then you will have the anwer to your questions BEFORE you meet my Lord Allah.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
could you give me that in English please Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: could you give me that in English please
Refere to my post above yours..I edited so that others may benefit as well.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
so for those who dont know the secret language
Principles of Islamic faith Islamic Belief Foundation of the Sunnah
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Allah has two hands. Both of His hands are busy.
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 515:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Right (Hand) of Allah Is full, and (Its fullness) is not affected by the continuous spending night and day. Do you see what He has spent since He created the Heavens and the Earth? Yet all that has not decreased what is in His Right Hand. His Throne is over the water and in His other Hand is the Bounty or the Power to bring about death, and He raises some people and brings others down." (Hadith No. 508)
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: so for those who dont know the secret language
Principles of Islamic faith Islamic Belief Foundation of the Sunnah
LOL when you go into the book store you can't ask for the book with possible the exception of Foundations of the Sunnah using the English title of the books.
You have to ask for them by the Secret languge(Arabic) titles..LOL
If you went into the book store and asked for Islamic Belief they wouldn't know who or what book you are referring to..LOL
In this case you will do best if you mentioned the books in the Secret Lanaguge (Arabic) names which I have posted.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Yes sands but I needed to know what it said in MY language before I go and ask in the secret language.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
A common point of disagreement between Muslims and Christians is the Christian belief that God does take on a human form and actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God. Yet, Christians do not believe that God in his essential nature is man, but only became man at the Incarnation. Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him.
Furthermore, according to the NT God actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1, 14
Hence, God in his essential nature is immaterial, invisible and spaceless. Yet, God assumed visible form and actually took on a physical body at the Incarnation of Jesus Christ without this effecting his invisible, immaterial divine nature:
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9
This is precisely the point that Muslims refuse to accept. Muslims think it inconceivable that their god, Allah could or would assume a visible form or actually become man.
Yet, interestingly both the Quran and hadiths affirm that Allah actually has a visible form and that Allah actually moves from place to place. Here is a sampling of Quranic passages affirming that Allah has a visible body:
The Quran Gives A Visible Form To Allah
By the Star when it goes down,- Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: He was taught by one Mighty in Power, Endued with Wisdom: FOR HE APPEARED (in stately form); While he was in the highest part of the horizon: THEN HE APPROACHED HIM AND CAME CLOSER, And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer; SO DID HE (God) CONVEY THE INSPIRATION TO HIS SERVANT- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. S. 53:1-10 (Yusuf Ali's translation)
This passage clearly states that Muhammad saw Allah approaching him in visible form. Muslims have claimed that the person whom Muhammad saw was the Angel Gabriel. This interpretation will not work since the passage claims that the person that appeared to Muhammad was Muhammad's sovereign as indicated by the last part of the sentence, "TO HIS SERVANT." Unless Muslims want to claim that Muhammad is the servant of Gabriel, there is no avoiding the inescapable conclusion that the person whom Muhammad saw in visible form was none other than Allah himself.
Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before THE LORD OF THE THRONE, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust. And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed; And without doubt HE SAW HIM IN THE CLEAR HORIZON. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen. Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed. S. 81:19-25
Again, the person whom Muhammad saw is none other than the Lord of the Throne, i.e. Allah. There is no other referent in the context of the passage and therefore the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to show that Muhammad did not see Allah visibly, but rather the Angel Gabriel. Noted Islamicist, F.E. Peters comments on the preceding Suras, specifically 53:1-12:
"None of the pronouns is identified in these verses, though there is little doubt that the recipient of the vision was Muhammad. Who was seen is less clear, and if Muhammad's being referred to as his 'servant' in verse 10 suggests that is God Himself, the Muslim tradition preferred to understand that it was Gabriel in all the other instances, chiefly because later in his own career Muhammad, as we shall see, had unmistakably come to the same conclusion. But there is no other mention of Gabriel in the Meccan suras, and it appears far more likely that God Himself first appeared to Muhammad 'on the high horizon' and then on a second occasion by the lotus tree near the 'garden of the dwelling' to show him 'the signs of his Lord.' Muhammad was clearly earthbound when he had his first experience, but where the latter vision took place, whether in a known locality in Mecca or, as is often thought, in some heavenly venue, is not further indicated. Neither is there anything to suggest that it was on either of these occasions that Muhammad received the words of the Quran.
"If Sura 53:1-18 seems to say that Muhammad believed that on two distinct occasions he had a vision of God, who thereby prompted him and showed to him His signs, the second vision is referred to only in briefing in passing. (Quran 81:19-27)
"Although verse 10 appears to refer back to the same vision 'on the high horizon' mentioned in 53:7-9, the Muslim commentators saw in the first three verses of this passage from Sura 81 an unmistakable reference to Gabriel. But there is abundant evidence that Muhammad not only did not identify Gabriel as the agent of revelation until his Medina days, but that while at Mecca he was criticized for the fact that God had not sent an angelic messenger: 'They said: "If your Lord had so pleased, He would certainly have sent down angels; as it is, we disbelieve your mission".' (Quran 41:14)
"Muhammad's earliest response did not encourage them to think that there was in fact an angel in God's revelation to him:
They say: 'You to whom the Reminder is being sent down, truly you are jinn-possessed! Why do you not bring angels to us if you are one of those who posses truth?' We do not send down the angels except when required, and if they came, there would be not repsite. (Ibid., 15:6-8)
And before you as well the Messengers we sent down were but men, to whom We granted inspiration. And if you do not understand that, ask the people who possess the Reminder. (Ibid., 16:43) (F.E. Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam [State of University Press New York, Albany 1994], pp. 142-143)
The next set of hadiths clearly say that Allah appeared visibly and literally touched Muhammad:
Narrated AbdurRahman ibn A'ish Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I saw my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious in the most beautiful form. He said: What do the Angels in the presence of Allah contend about? I said: Thou art the most aware of it. He then placed HIS PALM between my shoulders and I felt its coldness in my chest and I came to know what was in the Heavens and the Earth. He recited: 'Thus did we show Ibrahim the kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth and it was so that he might have certainty.' (6:75) Darimi reported it in a mursal form and Tirmidhi also reported. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 237- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was detained one morning from observing the dawn prayer (in congregation) along with us till the sun had almost appeared on the horizon. He then came out hurriedly and Iqamah for prayer was observed and he conducted it (prayer) in brief form. When he had concluded the prayer by saying As-salamu alaykum wa Rahmatullah, he called out to us saying: Remain in your places as you were. Then turning to us he said: I am going to tell you what detained me from you (on account of which I could not join you in the prayer) in the morning. I got up in the night and performed ablution and observed the prayer as had been ordained for me. I dozed in my prayer till I was overcome by (sleep) and lo, I found myself in the presence of my Lord, the Blessed and the Glorious, in the best form. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What these highest angels contend about? I said: I do not know. He repeated it thrice. He said: Then I saw Him put HIS PALMS between my shoulder blades till I felt the coldness of His fingers between the two sides of my chest. Then everything was illuminated for me and I could recognize everything. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What do these high angels contend about? I said: In regard to expiations. He said: What are these? I said: Going on foot to join congregational prayers, sitting in the mosques after the prayers, performing ablution well despite difficulties. He again said: Then what do they contend? I said: In regard to the ranks. He said: What are these? I said: Providing of food, speaking gently, observing the prayer when the people are asleep. He again said to me: Beg (Your Lord) and say: O Allah, I beg of Thee (power) to do good deeds, and abandon abominable deeds, to love the poor, that Thou forgive me and show mercy to me and when Thou intendst to put people to trial Thou causes me to die unblemished and I beg of Thee Thy love and the love of one who loves Thee and the love for the deed which brings me near to Thy love. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: It is a truth, so learn it and teach it. Transmitted by Ahmad, Tirmidhi who said: This is a hasan sahih hadith and I asked Muhammad ibn Isma'il about this hadith and he said: It is a sahih hadith. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 245; ALIM CD-ROM Version)
The Quran also applies human qualities and characteristics to Allah:
quote:A common point of disagreement between Muslims and Christians is the Christian belief that God does take on a human form and actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God. Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him. Yet, Christians do not believe that God in his essential nature is man, but only became man at the Incarnation.
When I read the above quote I couldn't help but crack up i.e. start laughing..it is so silly and they i.e Undercover and Freshsoda called us i.e. Muslims brainwashed and belonging to a cult..Jesus Christ!
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Muhammad, misunderstood what the term "Son of God" meant with respect to Christianity. He thought of it only in terms of sexual reproduction, i.e. that God fathered a child through sexual intercourse with Mary. Therefore he spoke out against it.
Muhammad was unable to distinguish between the Christian belief in Jesus as the Son of God and the Arab Pagan belief in idols as offspring of God, i.e., Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, (these were idols worshipped around Mecca as daughters of the supreme God - or Allah). Muhammad misunderstood that Christians in no way consider Jesus - the Son of God, in the same way the Arab Pagans understood their idols.
Muhammad's misconception of the Sonship of Christ is another proof that the Quran was not revealed to him by God, but rather it was built upon Muhammad's own concepts and ideology.
Because of Muhammad's misunderstanding, Islam places limits on God's power.
Muslims believe that the Quran - their Word of God - is eternal. The Quran also calls Jesus the Word of God. Since Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal, yet is able to enter into the limitations of time and space, and become available in book form, could not Jesus as the Word of God, be made manifest in human form? If on earth, Muslims believe that the uncreated Word of God - i.e., the Quran - is found as a book making it both uncreated and created, then cannot the uncreated Word of God be revealed as a human, if God willed it? That God has willed this is revealed in the testimony of the Gospels - God's eternal self-expression, His Word, His Son, has entered human form as Jesus the Messiah.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Uncover wrote:
quote:Because of Muhammad's misunderstanding, Islam places limits on God's power.
The Quran says: Allah, Huwa a'la kulli shayin Qadeer
Translation: Allah, He is all powerful over everything.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
The incarnation is actually God becoming a human being so that we could understand or know Him and how to relate to Him better. It was a part of God's revelation of who He is to us. In Islam and all other religions, man is trying to reach up to God. However, in the Bible, God is trying to reach down to us as human beings and reveal Himself to us in a way that will enable us to relate to Him the way He wants us to relate to Him.
To understand the incarnation, you first have to understand the Biblical concept of Allah.
A Personal God Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Undercover:
To understand the incarnation, you first have to understand the Biblical concept of Allah.
Biblical or New Testament?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QB] Is God human or does God have human attributes? ]
Did you want a Islamic reference or others as well?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
is there something wrong with your 'f' key or does that read right?
reference for what or what??
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands does He have a long white beard too?
Read again, again and if you have to over AGAIN:
1. Aqeedatul Wasitiyah: available at Darus Salaam bookstore in English 2. Aqeedatul Tahawiyah: As far as I know only available in the Arabic language 3. Usool Sunnah: Available Online for free. Just look up Imam Ahmed bin hambal (RA) and Usool Sunnah insha Allah
Then you will have the anwer to your questions BEFORE you meet my Lord Allah. [/QB]
So these are your beliefs sands? in these books?
Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah
35. "Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings."
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: ^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands does He have a long white beard too?
Read again, again and if you have to over AGAIN:
1. Aqeedatul Wasitiyah: available at Darus Salaam bookstore in English 2. Aqeedatul Tahawiyah: As far as I know only available in the Arabic language 3. Usool Sunnah: Available Online for free. Just look up Imam Ahmed bin hambal (RA) and Usool Sunnah insha Allah
Then you will have the anwer to your questions BEFORE you meet my Lord Allah.
So these are your beliefs sands? in these books?
Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah
35. "Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings."
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: ^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
[/QB]
Yes, dear Ayisha I support that statement 100%!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
which one sands?
You have said that you think God has hands, face, eyes and fingers like humans do but the Islamic Belief that you claim you follow says He is not like humans
incase you didnt notice they contradict each other so which is it sands?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: which one sands?
You have said that you think God has hands, face, eyes and fingers like humans do but the Islamic Belief that you claim you follow says He is not like humans
incase you didnt notice they contradict each other so which is it sands?
He is my position:
quote:Allah has all of the attributes which He describes Himself with in the Quran.
A wonderful book to read along with Shaykh's Muhammad ibn Khalifah Al Tamimi (may Allah preserve him) is (and I'll say it again): Aqeedatul Wasitiyah or Aqeedah Tahawiyah book books talks about the attributes (sifat) of Allah and Allah says he has hands..We don't know what His hands tabaraka ta'ala look like but there is no doubt He azza wa jal has hand, eyes and any other attribute which He has stated in the Quran.
Furthermore, it was a typo (which the sandman is known to do OFTEN).
There is nothing like unto Him Azza wa Jal.
Thank you for pointing out my typo. Inshaa Allah my position is clear.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Sands please check your private messages.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
I took that from Aqeedatul Tahawiyyah sands. It is still not clear whether you think God has hands, face, eyes, and fingers like humans do and you have replied to this same question 3 times now.
Do you understand the question?
Do you think God has hands face eyes and fingers like humans do
I dont see any typo, either you do or you dont, you have replied twice that you do, is that where you claim is a typo?
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Sands stated clearly Allah is not having features of Human ( hands, eyes, face, fingers ).
How many times someone needs to say it? 56?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Sands stated clearly Allah is not having features of Human ( hands, eyes, face, fingers ).
How many times someone needs to say it? 56?
THIS is the only CLEAR statement sands made in this subject
quote:^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
and I can understand why YOU would see that as opposite to what it says on account of your lack of understanding anything written.
Now dont get into THIS 'debate' unless you have something to offer the thread besides more of your hateful attacks, ok?
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Sands stated clearly Allah is not having features of Human ( hands, eyes, face, fingers ).
How many times someone needs to say it? 56?
Sands can answer for himself. What are you his spokesman? Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Ayisha, it's not Sands who doesn't understand, it's you.
This wasn't 'debate'.
You simply overestimate your intellectual abilities & knowledge about Islam.
For instance in this thread you showed again 1) lack of comprehension and 2) inability to focus on issue in question.
He did not argue, he simply was nice to you and replied to you trying to help you understand.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
LML do you have a blockage in your brain?
Its YOU who does not have the ability to understand that sands had CLEARLY stated that he DOES think that God has hands, face, eyes, and fingers LIKE HUMANS DO and now he is backtracking and saying 'typo', fine what TYPO??? and is his opinion still the same?
Your lack of comprehension and ability to focus on the issue in question is shinning brightly again today. I didnt say sands argued I said it was not clear NOW what his position was. Im sure you dont have to speak for him do you, its bad enough HIM not being able to answer a straight question without you and your inability to read and understand getting in the way.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Ayisha, it's not Sands who doesn't understand, it's you.
This wasn't 'debate'.
You simply overestimate your intellectual abilities & knowledge about Islam.
For instance in this thread you showed again 1) lack of comprehension and 2) inability to focus on issue in question.
He did not argue, he simply was nice to you and replied to you trying to help you understand.
Thank you LML, my thoughts EXACTLY.
Posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus) (Member # 14353) on :
To know about Allah, Visit this http://www.godnames.org/ Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
I'm glad you started this thread Ayisha. Whenever I read the Koran, I wonder about these physical attributes that are associated with the image of GOD. However, I believe that there are many creatures in this world that have hands, face,eyes, and fingers, so it's very difficult to imagine what God, subhanu we Ta3ala is like.
Having said that I don't understand why some religions are so fixated about how God looks like. Who cares, is it really important?
Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: A common point of disagreement between Muslims and Christians is the Christian belief that God does take on a human form and actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God. Yet, Christians do not believe that God in his essential nature is man, but only became man at the Incarnation. Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him.
Furthermore, according to the NT God actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1, 14
Hence, God in his essential nature is immaterial, invisible and spaceless. Yet, God assumed visible form and actually took on a physical body at the Incarnation of Jesus Christ without this effecting his invisible, immaterial divine nature:
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9
This is precisely the point that Muslims refuse to accept. Muslims think it inconceivable that their god, Allah could or would assume a visible form or actually become man.
Yet, interestingly both the Quran and hadiths affirm that Allah actually has a visible form and that Allah actually moves from place to place. Here is a sampling of Quranic passages affirming that Allah has a visible body:
The Quran Gives A Visible Form To Allah
By the Star when it goes down,- Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: He was taught by one Mighty in Power, Endued with Wisdom: FOR HE APPEARED (in stately form); While he was in the highest part of the horizon: THEN HE APPROACHED HIM AND CAME CLOSER, And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer; SO DID HE (God) CONVEY THE INSPIRATION TO HIS SERVANT- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. S. 53:1-10 (Yusuf Ali's translation)
This passage clearly states that Muhammad saw Allah approaching him in visible form. Muslims have claimed that the person whom Muhammad saw was the Angel Gabriel. This interpretation will not work since the passage claims that the person that appeared to Muhammad was Muhammad's sovereign as indicated by the last part of the sentence, "TO HIS SERVANT." Unless Muslims want to claim that Muhammad is the servant of Gabriel, there is no avoiding the inescapable conclusion that the person whom Muhammad saw in visible form was none other than Allah himself.
Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before THE LORD OF THE THRONE, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust. And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed; And without doubt HE SAW HIM IN THE CLEAR HORIZON. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen. Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed. S. 81:19-25
Again, the person whom Muhammad saw is none other than the Lord of the Throne, i.e. Allah. There is no other referent in the context of the passage and therefore the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to show that Muhammad did not see Allah visibly, but rather the Angel Gabriel. Noted Islamicist, F.E. Peters comments on the preceding Suras, specifically 53:1-12:
"None of the pronouns is identified in these verses, though there is little doubt that the recipient of the vision was Muhammad. Who was seen is less clear, and if Muhammad's being referred to as his 'servant' in verse 10 suggests that is God Himself, the Muslim tradition preferred to understand that it was Gabriel in all the other instances, chiefly because later in his own career Muhammad, as we shall see, had unmistakably come to the same conclusion. But there is no other mention of Gabriel in the Meccan suras, and it appears far more likely that God Himself first appeared to Muhammad 'on the high horizon' and then on a second occasion by the lotus tree near the 'garden of the dwelling' to show him 'the signs of his Lord.' Muhammad was clearly earthbound when he had his first experience, but where the latter vision took place, whether in a known locality in Mecca or, as is often thought, in some heavenly venue, is not further indicated. Neither is there anything to suggest that it was on either of these occasions that Muhammad received the words of the Quran.
"If Sura 53:1-18 seems to say that Muhammad believed that on two distinct occasions he had a vision of God, who thereby prompted him and showed to him His signs, the second vision is referred to only in briefing in passing. (Quran 81:19-27)
"Although verse 10 appears to refer back to the same vision 'on the high horizon' mentioned in 53:7-9, the Muslim commentators saw in the first three verses of this passage from Sura 81 an unmistakable reference to Gabriel. But there is abundant evidence that Muhammad not only did not identify Gabriel as the agent of revelation until his Medina days, but that while at Mecca he was criticized for the fact that God had not sent an angelic messenger: 'They said: "If your Lord had so pleased, He would certainly have sent down angels; as it is, we disbelieve your mission".' (Quran 41:14)
"Muhammad's earliest response did not encourage them to think that there was in fact an angel in God's revelation to him:
They say: 'You to whom the Reminder is being sent down, truly you are jinn-possessed! Why do you not bring angels to us if you are one of those who posses truth?' We do not send down the angels except when required, and if they came, there would be not repsite. (Ibid., 15:6-8)
And before you as well the Messengers we sent down were but men, to whom We granted inspiration. And if you do not understand that, ask the people who possess the Reminder. (Ibid., 16:43) (F.E. Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam [State of University Press New York, Albany 1994], pp. 142-143)
The next set of hadiths clearly say that Allah appeared visibly and literally touched Muhammad:
Narrated AbdurRahman ibn A'ish Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I saw my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious in the most beautiful form. He said: What do the Angels in the presence of Allah contend about? I said: Thou art the most aware of it. He then placed HIS PALM between my shoulders and I felt its coldness in my chest and I came to know what was in the Heavens and the Earth. He recited: 'Thus did we show Ibrahim the kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth and it was so that he might have certainty.' (6:75) Darimi reported it in a mursal form and Tirmidhi also reported. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 237- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was detained one morning from observing the dawn prayer (in congregation) along with us till the sun had almost appeared on the horizon. He then came out hurriedly and Iqamah for prayer was observed and he conducted it (prayer) in brief form. When he had concluded the prayer by saying As-salamu alaykum wa Rahmatullah, he called out to us saying: Remain in your places as you were. Then turning to us he said: I am going to tell you what detained me from you (on account of which I could not join you in the prayer) in the morning. I got up in the night and performed ablution and observed the prayer as had been ordained for me. I dozed in my prayer till I was overcome by (sleep) and lo, I found myself in the presence of my Lord, the Blessed and the Glorious, in the best form. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What these highest angels contend about? I said: I do not know. He repeated it thrice. He said: Then I saw Him put HIS PALMS between my shoulder blades till I felt the coldness of His fingers between the two sides of my chest. Then everything was illuminated for me and I could recognize everything. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What do these high angels contend about? I said: In regard to expiations. He said: What are these? I said: Going on foot to join congregational prayers, sitting in the mosques after the prayers, performing ablution well despite difficulties. He again said: Then what do they contend? I said: In regard to the ranks. He said: What are these? I said: Providing of food, speaking gently, observing the prayer when the people are asleep. He again said to me: Beg (Your Lord) and say: O Allah, I beg of Thee (power) to do good deeds, and abandon abominable deeds, to love the poor, that Thou forgive me and show mercy to me and when Thou intendst to put people to trial Thou causes me to die unblemished and I beg of Thee Thy love and the love of one who loves Thee and the love for the deed which brings me near to Thy love. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: It is a truth, so learn it and teach it. Transmitted by Ahmad, Tirmidhi who said: This is a hasan sahih hadith and I asked Muhammad ibn Isma'il about this hadith and he said: It is a sahih hadith. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 245; ALIM CD-ROM Version)
The Quran also applies human qualities and characteristics to Allah:
So basically you are trying to tell us that the Koran is saying the truth? lol Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
No. These are figurative expressions to convey a meaning and a feeling to us humans. God describes Himself in verse 42:11 saying
"...Nothing is similar to His likeness..."
Perfect, this verse answers the question very clearly.
Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Is God human or does God have human attributes? So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
I can add another question, what was God doing before He created the universe? Try to figure out.
God is infinite and in everywhere, althought he spoke to Adam, Abraham/Ibrahim and Moses and they heard him which appeared his limitation to one place but still infinite In Exodus 33:20 God said "No one may see me and live" also Quran sura 7:143 quite the same meaning, so how God would be able to communicate with Humans by his heavenly nature, is there any way to communicate with humans and humans can live after that??
The human characteristics which attributed to God is to make it possible for humans to understand who is God because man is limited in his understanding; God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings as in bible and Quran as well Sura 20:10-24 but it was in a way that Moses could understand and his weak human body could stand infront God, voice of God heard through a tree or fire as what happened to Moses this suppose to mean that God has the power to speak through anything tree, fire or even human.
If God's voice was heard to a human, it means God can speaks like us and if he speaks sure his speaking would be wisdom,light,truth…does this mean God have mind like us? If God creates his creatures by mind to think how the creator can't have?
Is God dead? Sure not otherwise God could be an Idea in our minds but not exist in real and if God is not dead it means he is living so the conclusion that God is exist, has mind and able to speaks, living not dead and this is by the way the definition if trinity creed in simple which is a hight level understanding to the minds who says God is one and stop thinking more.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Jesus is seen in Christianity in the same way that the Qur'an is seen in Islam. Muhammad is seen in the same way that we see the Apostle Paul.
Jesus is the revelation of God, an expression that demonstrates who God is and what He is like. Even the Qur'an calls Him the "Word of Allah" (Kalamatullah), which is also what the Bible calls Him.
You see, God wanting to reveal Himself to us and be in a loving relationship with us, lowered Himself to become like us so that it would easier for us to relate to Him and know who He is. Jesus was and is that physical human form of God. As the Bible describe it, "God put on mankind like a garment." He put on a physical body, because many times we are limited as human beings to the physical world around us, and cannot fully understand the spirit world that God is a part of. He became like us so that we would be capable of understanding and relating to Him just like we would a loving Father. Because we know what Jesus is like, we have a better way of knowing who God really is and how to be able to relate to Him.
A Personal God Posted by PeaceAtLast (Member # 14252) on :
...maybe God is a chick Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
I think Aiysha by somehow struggling to link her Christianity background with Islam but unfortunately Islam came to smash the core of Christianity faith and to remain on the top while other faiths considered blasphemy to Islam. So to accept Islam in which a complete religion to previous ones is a big deceives and illusion, anyway that's her choice.
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: I think Aiysha by somehow struggling to link her Christianity background with Islam but unfortunately Islam came to smash the core of Christianity faith and to remain on the top while other faiths considered blasphemy to Islam. So to accept Islam in which a complete religion to previous ones is a big deceives and illusion, anyway that's her choice.
fresh, the only 'struggle' I think im having is in finding and pinning down The Truth, thats all im after. I have no problems 'linking' my Christian background to Islam, its all there in Quran anyway.
You say Islam came and smashed the core of Christianity in reference to me and how im seeing Islam, but the 'core' of Christianity as you see it is Jesus being either the son of God or God himself, or both, I never believed that anyway when I WAS a Christian, so thats not it
I fully accept Islam with no problems, but the Islam in Quran, not the man-made Islam that the masses seem to follow.
I didnt start this thread because i dont know the answer, it was to get other peoples ideas after I had read it in a book a long time ago when I had not been a convert very long. At least one member here follows this 'sect' of Islam which I find totally alien to Islam itself.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Fresh you raised some brilliant questions here and just what I was looking for!
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Is God human or does God have human attributes? So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
I can add another question, what was God doing before He created the universe? Try to figure out.
God is infinite and in everywhere, althought he spoke to Adam, Abraham/Ibrahim and Moses and they heard him which appeared his limitation to one place but still infinite In Exodus 33:20 God said "No one may see me and live" also Quran sura 7:143 quite the same meaning, so how God would be able to communicate with Humans by his heavenly nature, is there any way to communicate with humans and humans can live after that??
The human characteristics which attributed to God is to make it possible for humans to understand who is God because man is limited in his understanding; God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings as in bible and Quran as well Sura 20:10-24 but it was in a way that Moses could understand and his weak human body could stand infront God, voice of God heard through a tree or fire as what happened to Moses this suppose to mean that God has the power to speak through anything tree, fire or even human.
If God's voice was heard to a human, it means God can speaks like us and if he speaks sure his speaking would be wisdom,light,truth…does this mean God have mind like us? If God creates his creatures by mind to think how the creator can't have?
The bit I made bold is very well put.
We are human and God is not, we are created and God is not. We cannot possibly comprehend 'what' God IS so in our limited minds we have to 'make' Him 'similar' to a human being, a man. This is WRONG, God is NOT a man. God describes himself in HUMAN words that WE can understand, as human words is all we have. God 'communicates' in 'our' way to 'us'.
quote:Is God dead? Sure not otherwise God could be an Idea in our minds but not exist in real and if God is not dead it means he is living so the conclusion that God is exist, has mind and able to speaks, living not dead and this is by the way the definition if trinity creed in simple which is a hight level understanding to the minds who says God is one and stop thinking more.
Is God dead? I asked a similar question to a vicar when I was a child, he laughed.
'God made man in His image' is THE most misleading statement ever! This one statement forces you to think of God in terms of 'man' because we KNOW what WE look like, so we make God a 'man' like us. If that statement was 'God made man in the image of a monkey' we would all be worshipping monkeys as being the image of God, they do have hands, face, eyes and fingers too.
God is NOTHING LIKE ANYTHING HE CREATED. To think of Him in terms of 'man' limits Him, He is beyond limits. He only needs 'say' BE and it IS, but is this 'say' as in how WE 'say' something? No, because that makes Him a man again!
There is no way on this earth I can believe God has fingers, hands, eyes and face in terms of how we 'think',ie. as humans do. We will never be able to comprehend 'what' God IS and we shouldnt be trying to 'make' Him 'human'.
I think this is one of the reasons some Christians think of Jesus as God, or the son of God or both, but 'human'. I never could 'click' with the explanation of the trinity, fresh, so please dont try to explain it Honest I have heard it a million times and it wont go in, but i can see HOW this has happened if we are 'forced' into thinking we are made in God's image just by that one statement.
So is God dead or alive? there we make Him human again. Does 'alive' mean 'living'? Something thats 'living' eventually 'dies'. Attributes of creation and not created.
Im going a bit 'deep' here I think I better stop
Hubby says I think too much
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Thanks Mr Egypt. There is something in here that I am having difficulty with and would appreciate your input please.
"To imagine Allah in a certain form is not correct. The safest way for a Muslim is to believe in all the attributes of Allah is without adding any interpretation. To negate the attributes of Allah altogether or to compare Him to someone is a deviation from the right path. Our Lord is unique and without any equal at all."
So we are not to imagine Allah in any form, ok I get that.
"Whosoever questions us and says, ‘Do you believe God has a face?’, the answer is: ‘We believe it contrarily to the belief of the innovators; and His words ‘And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will abide forever’ (Qur’an 55:27) are a proof of it.’"
Here I am starting to get confused This is saying we believe He has a face but we believe that 'contrarily to the innovators', what does that mean?
"If anybody says, ‘You do not deny that God’s words ‘from what Our hands have made’ and His words, ‘before him whom I have created with My two hands’ are metaphorical", the answer is: The rule of the Word of God is that it is to be interpreted literally and truly, and a thing is not transferred from its literal meaning to a metaphorical one, except by proof."
So we are to take hands and face as their 'literal' meaning, as hands and face that 'we know' of like humans
"We therefore affirm these attributes of Allah (swt) and realize that
"There is nothing like unto Him" (Qur’an 42:11), that
"There is none comparable to Him" (Qur’an 112:4)"
Now based on what I have quoted so far that God has hands and face, the first sentence here 'affirms' that, but the following 2 say there is nothing like him etc. Something contradicts here as we are saying 'yes He has hands and face' but then we say 'there is nothing like Him', if He has hands and face then there IS something like him. Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
Thanks Mr Egypt. There is something in here that I am having difficulty with and would appreciate your input please.
"To imagine Allah in a certain form is not correct. The safest way for a Muslim is to believe in all the attributes of Allah is without adding any interpretation. To negate the attributes of Allah altogether or to compare Him to someone is a deviation from the right path. Our Lord is unique and without any equal at all."
So we are not to imagine Allah in any form, ok I get that.
"Whosoever questions us and says, ‘Do you believe God has a face?’, the answer is: ‘We believe it contrarily to the belief of the innovators; and His words ‘And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will abide forever’ (Qur’an 55:27) are a proof of it.’"
Here I am starting to get confused This is saying we believe He has a face but we believe that 'contrarily to the innovators', what does that mean?
"If anybody says, ‘You do not deny that God’s words ‘from what Our hands have made’ and His words, ‘before him whom I have created with My two hands’ are metaphorical", the answer is: The rule of the Word of God is that it is to be interpreted literally and truly, and a thing is not transferred from its literal meaning to a metaphorical one, except by proof."
So we are to take hands and face as their 'literal' meaning, as hands and face that 'we know' of like humans
"We therefore affirm these attributes of Allah (swt) and realize that
"There is nothing like unto Him" (Qur’an 42:11), that
"There is none comparable to Him" (Qur’an 112:4)"
Now based on what I have quoted so far that God has hands and face, the first sentence here 'affirms' that, but the following 2 say there is nothing like him etc. Something contradicts here as we are saying 'yes He has hands and face' but then we say 'there is nothing like Him', if He has hands and face then there IS something like him.
But Ayisha as I said above, there are many creatures in this world that have hands and faces, so God subhanu we ta3ala, could have these qualities but in a unique form that we have never seen before.
Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Undercover: [QB] Jesus is seen in Christianity in the same way that the Qur'an is seen in Islam. Muhammad is seen in the same way that we see the Apostle Paul.
Jesus is the revelation of God, an expression that demonstrates who God is and what He is like. Even the Qur'an calls Him the "Word of Allah" (Kalamatullah), which is also what the Bible calls Him.
QUOTE]
Lol so in your opinion the Koran is once again saying the truth? Don't you see? You keep walking into the same trap! Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Through the New Testament it is made very clear that Jesus is indeed God, revealed as The Word of God.
John the Baptist, a prophet chosen of God, bore witness to Jesus's prior existence, that He was from the beginning. He took upon Himself a human body to make known truth and redeem mankind.
John 1:1-5 Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. 2 He has always been alive and is himself God. 3 He created everything there is--nothing exists that he didn't make. 4 Eternal life is in him, and this life gives light to all mankind.
NIV John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
NIV John1:9-15 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'" 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
The Almighty Designer became part of His Creation, confined by time, space and age to rescue and give to mankind the gift of Eternity with Him. The Word as a human being came in the fulfilment of promises made. The Word of God, Jesus, carried out and accomplished for us our Redemption, which was planned in Genesis at the beginning.
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
Ayisha, simply whatever your mind makes you imagine to be Allah, He isn't Allah. Nothing like Him. 016.074 SHAKIR: Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: Ayisha, simply whatever your mind makes you imagine to be Allah, He isn't Allah. Nothing like Him.
Err ... I thought that has been her point all through this thread.
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: Ayisha, simply whatever your mind makes you imagine to be Allah, He isn't Allah. Nothing like Him.
Err ... I thought that has been her point all through this thread.
I see Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Exactly Dalia, im glad there is someone here with a brain who doesnt try to twist what I say.
Mr Egypt i dont imagine Allah to be anything but a Force or Power, you need to discuss the human factors with sands and LML who see Him with hands etc. I alreasy KNOW that which you are pointing out as Dalia said, that was my whole point in this thread.
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
Read the verse Ayisha: Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know. so don't say He has face like humans but He has a face. say He has eyes but don't say like humans or anything else.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Mr Egypt, read what I said and read what sands said. It was sands who claimed 'like humans do' NOT ME. Are all you people BLIND? Am I typing in a totally alien language?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: Read the verse Ayisha: Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know.
Mr Egypt, you did not read the thread properly.
You are trying to convince Ayisha of the very same thing she said before:
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: "...Nothing is similar to His likeness..."
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Thank you PI, that is also my personal view.
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Mr Egypt, you did not read the thread properly.
You are trying to convince Ayisha of the very same thing she said before:
I have read the thread from the start Dalia so don't assume things here, I am not debating Ayisha on this , I am giving her my personal view as she didn't start this thread because she doesn't know the answer but to get other people views on the subject
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Mr Egypt, read what I said and read what sands said. It was sands who claimed 'like humans do' NOT ME. Are all you people BLIND? Am I typing in a totally alien language?
I have a question for you Ayisha, just curious. Did you ever imagine the likeness of God when you were Christian ?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
No Mr Egypt as I was aware then also that God is nothing like anything in His creation. I was fully aware He was not a 'man' or in the form of a human with any human likeness whatsoever.
Posted by Mr Egypt (Member # 10436) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No Mr Egypt as I was aware then also that God is nothing like anything in His creation. I was fully aware He was not a 'man' or in the form of a human with any human likeness whatsoever.
Does the bible give such description to God ?
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Yes it does, Mr Egypt.
The doctrine of the Trinity begins with the assumption that the true God is not totally comprehensible to man because God is not totally comprehensible to man. Any god we could fully understand and explain would be no greater then what we are. But although God is not FULLY comprehensible to man He is comprehensible to man as much as He has revealed Himself to us. The inescapable truth is that God will and must always be greater than our finite capacity to understand fully or to explain exhaustively.
Our failure or understand or explain fully the Trinity or any other aspect of God is not due to some defect in God or in His revelation but rather the result of the fact that God is infinite and we are finite and our abilities and intellects are limited.
If the Trinity were fully understandable, this in itself, would be an indication that it is erroneous. Christians are not ashamed that the Trinity is difficult to comprehend, that we are left with unanswered questions, because the Trinity is a mystery and we boast in it, 1Cor 1:31.
But to say the Trinity is not totally understandable or explainable does not mean that it is irrational, illogical, or unknowable at all. We simply that God is beyond man's ability to understand or explain exhaustively and beyond man's understanding not contrary to it. We can have limited but true knowledge of God. Jer 9:23,24; Dan 11:32; Jn 17:3; Gal 4:8,9; 1Jn 4:4-8; 5:18-21.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Proof from the Qur'an and Sunnah that the Attributes of Allah are to be taken literally
As for the Qur'an:
Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
As for the Sunnah:
1). On the authority of Abi Yunus Saleem bin Jabeer, Mawlah of Abu Hurayrah that he said, “I heard Abu Hurayrah reciting the verse, “Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts..” until, “surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing” (Annisa’a: 58) He said, “I saw the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) put his hand on his ears and eye.” Abu Hurayrah (radhiallahu ‘an) said, “I saw the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) recite this verse and do that.” (Abu Dawood, Ibn Khuzaymah, Ibn Habban, At-tabarani, Ibn Mindah) Ibn Yunus said, that Al-Muqre’e said, “Surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing, means that Allah sees and hears.” Abu Dawood said, “And this is a refutation of the Jahmees.” In this hadeeth we see that the attributes of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) are to be taken literally. This doesn’t mean that Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) is similar to the creation, He is above that. As Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) said, “there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees” So He affirms hearing and seeing to himself, while negating that it is like any creation.
2). On Ubaydallah bin Maqsim that he was looking at Abdullah bin ‘Umar talking about how the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) talked and said, “Allah (Azza Wa Jal) will take the heavens and earth with his hands and will say, “I am Allah” and he will straighten his fingers and then constrict them, and then say, “I am the King” when I looked to the pulpit I saw it shaking because of something moving under it, to the point that I said it will not fall with the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ) standing on it” (Muslim) From this we see the affirmation of Allah clenching and straightening his fingers without comparing it to that of the creation.
3). In a long hadeeth on the authority of Abdullah bin Mas’ood (radhiallahu ‘an) that the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said in the end of this hadeeth, “The slave asks Allah to enter him into Jannah, Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Would you be happy if I gave you from Jannah similar to the earth and what is in it?” The slave says, “Do you mock me and you are the Mighty Lord”—the narrator then says that Abdullah bin Mas’ood then laughs, and then says, “Why don’t you ask me why I am laughing?” They said, “Why did you laugh?” Ibn Mas’ood said, “The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) laughed, then said to us, “Why don’t you ask me why I am laughing?” We said, “Why are you laughing of Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam)?” He (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “Allah laughs when this person says, “Do you mock me and you are the Mighty Lord?” (Ahmad, Abu Awanah, Abu Yahla, Ashaashe, Attabarani, Al hHkim) This hadeeth shows the literalness of Allah’s laughing.
4). On the authority of Jabir (radhiallahu ‘an) that the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) used to increase in saying, “Oh changer of the hearts, make my heart firm on your religion.” Some of the Sahaba said to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam), “Do you fear for us after we believed in you, and what you brought?” He said, “Indeed the heart is between 2 fingers from the fingers of Allah (Azza Wa Jal)” he said like this, and Abu Ahmad moved his fingers. (Abu Ya’lah, Tabare, Addarqatne, ibn Minda) This shows the literalness of Allah’s fingers.
5). On the authority of Hammad bin Salama that he said, “The fingers have been affirmed on the authority of Anis bin Malik on the Prophet when Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) said, “And when his Lord appeared to the mountain.” He said, “Like this” And he showed a piece of his little finger. My father said that Mu’adh related this to us, and Hameed Attaaweel said to him, “What do you want from this oh Abu Muhammad--- or, does this confirm the fingers?” He said so he hit him in his chest with a powerful blow and said, “And who are you oh Hameed? And what are you oh Hameed? Anis bin Malik relates this to me on the authority of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) and you say, “What do you want from this?!”
6). On Abbas (radhiallahu ‘an) that he said, “A Jew passed by the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) and the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said to him, “Oh Jew, tell us something.” So the Jew said, “What do you say Abu Qasim about when Allah takes the heavens on this, the earth on this, the water on this, the mountains on this, and all of the creation on this.” And Abu Ja’far Muhammad bin Assilt pointed to his little finger for the first one then to the next finger until he reached the thumb. And Allah revealed, “No just estimate have they made of Allah, such as is due to Him.” (Tirmidhee classified it as strange but authentic, Ahmad, Ibn Khuzama and others) And Abdullah said in “Assunnah” I heard my father may Allah have mercy on him say, “Yahya bin Sa’eid told us of the hadeeth of Sufyan on Al ‘Amash on Mansoor on Ibraheem on Abeed on Abdullah on the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) that he said, “Indeed Allah holds the heavens on his fingers.” My father may Allah have mercy on him said, “Yahya showed us with his fingers, going from finger to finger until he reached the last one.” (Bukhari and Muslim) These affirm that Allah has fingers, as well as their literalness, without comparing them to the fingers of the creation.
7). Harith bin Suwayd said, “I entered on Abdullah while he was sick, he gave us two talks, one about himself, and the other a hadeeth on the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) where he said, “Allah is happier with repentance of his slave than a person who is in the desert, and with him is his animal which has all his food and drink, so he sleeps, and when he wakes he finds his animal gone, then he looks for it and finally stops from thirst and says, “I will return to my former place and sleep until I die.” So he puts his head down to die, and when he wakes he sees his animal with his food and drink still on it. So Allah is happier with the repentance of his slave, than this man would be with finding his animal.” (Bukhari and Muslim) And this hadeeth affirms the attribute of happiness to Allah, and shows its literalness.
8). Abu Razeen (radhiallahu 'an) said, "The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, "Our lord laughs from His slaves' desperateness although His relief is near." I said, "Oh Messenger, the Lord laughs?" He said, "Yes." I said: "We will never miss out on goodness from a lord who laughs" (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Ateyalsee, and others) From this we know that the companion understood the attribute of Allah laughing and its literalness, and it shows good and mercy.
9). On Jabir (radhiallahu ‘an) in the long hadeeth about the Prophet’s (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) Hajj, from the speech on Arafah he said, “And indeed I left for you something of which you will not be misguided if you held to it, the Book of Allah, and you ask from me, so what will you do?” They said, “We bear witness that you gave us the message and advised us.” So he said while pointing his index finger to the sky, “Oh Allah bear witness, Oh Allah bear witness.” three times. (Muslim) This hadeeth proves that Allah is above the heavens with the pointing of the Prophet towards the sky.
Source: الأشاعرة في ميزان أهل السنة لفيصل الجاسم
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
The majority of World's Muslims are non-Muslims who can't understand or read Arabic. If the Quran is so universal for all the world, then why does one have to learn arabic to understand the religion?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Undercover:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
The majority of World's Muslims are non-Muslims who can't understand or read Arabic. If the Quran is so universal for all the world, then why does one have to learn arabic to understand the religion?
Just because SOME Muslims don't take the time to learn the language in which Allah spoke is not the fault of Allah. Arabic is the language in which the Quran was revealed and it the language in which the deen has been preserved in.
Again Allah said that He made the Quran in Arabic so that we will understand it. There are millions of people's whose mother tongue is NOT Arabic, however, they have taken the time to learn the language of Arabic both written and spoken.
When Islam spreaded in the past, so did the language of Arabic, however, this is not the case today and many make themselves dependent on translations verses taking the time to learn and study Arabic. Egypt was not a Arabic speaking country prior to Islaam. However, today the Arabic is the spoken language of the country walhamdulilah. The same holds true for many countries prior to their people accepting of Islam.
The issue for Muslims is to learn the original language in which the Quran was revealed. When they do not learn the Arabic lanaguage and those people will be limited to the Islamic information which has been preserved in the Arabic language because they will only be dependent of books that have been translated. Many of the scholars of the past book's have not even been translated. The amount of information that is available in the English language is extremely limited in comparsion to the Arabic language which the Quran and ahadeeth were written in.
Again if Muslims today fail to do so i.e. learn the language of Arabic then it doesn't mean that the Quran or Islaam will cease to be understood. Each individual is responsible for his/her own soul. Which paths that they take they will ultimately be responsible for their actions.
Even people like you undercover if you take the time to learn Arabic, even you will see Islaam in a different light wa Allahu Ta'ala Al Alim.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Whe Islam spreaded in the past so did the language of Arabic. Egypt was not a Arabic speaking country prior to Islaam. However, today the Arabic is the spoken language of the country walhamdulilah. The same holds true for many countries prior to their people accepting of Islam.
The hadith no. 5751 (Mishkat, Vol. 3) reports the Prophet saying:
"Love the Arabs for three reasons because (1) I am an Arab (2) the Holy Koran is in Arabic and (3) the tongue of the dwellers of paradise shall also be Arabic."
"(O Prophet) tell people if you really love Allah, follow me, and if you act like this, then Allah will love you, too, and He will forgive your sins." (The House of Imran, III: 30)
Thus, to be a Muslim, a non-Arab believer has to live as an Arab to qualify for Allah's love and pardon. All Muslims must learn the Arabic language to be able to recite the Quran and to offer prayers, adopt Arabic names and conform to Islamic (read Bedouin Arab) culture. This is naked Arab imperialism in the guise of religion.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
sands again you use the word 'proof' and provide none.
Posted by Reality_Meanie (Member # 14540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No Mr Egypt as I was aware then also that God is nothing like anything in His creation. I was fully aware He was not a 'man' or in the form of a human with any human likeness whatsoever.
Does the bible give such description to God ?
As a non-trinitarian, there is a verse out of Genesis in which its stated that Adam was created out of the likeness of the Creator himself and non-human animals don't resemble the Creator.
Mr. Egypt are you afraid to open the Bible or Torah and look to see if this description is there?
Or are you just asking in order to create an arguement?
Posted by Reality_Meanie (Member # 14540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Mr Egypt, you did not read the thread properly.
You are trying to convince Ayisha of the very same thing she said before:
I have read the thread from the start Dalia so don't assume things here, I am not debating Ayisha on this , I am giving her my personal view as she didn't start this thread because she doesn't know the answer but to get other people views on the subject
Logic lesson for mr. egypt.
Your opinion is different than Ayisha's doesn't mean your opinion is the "answer" and since Ayisha disagrees with your opinion doesn't mean she is wrong or doesn't have a right to her opinion.
Also other people's views even if they did match your own opinion doesn't meant prevailing or popular opinion makes popular opinion fact.
Fact isn't democratically voted in, fact is proven with evidence and logic. Most often reviewed by a panel of "experts" and not trolls on an internet forum.
Copeche?
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Undercover:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Whe Islam spreaded in the past so did the language of Arabic. Egypt was not a Arabic speaking country prior to Islaam. However, today the Arabic is the spoken language of the country walhamdulilah. The same holds true for many countries prior to their people accepting of Islam.
The hadith no. 5751 (Mishkat, Vol. 3) reports the Prophet saying:
"Love the Arabs for three reasons because (1) I am an Arab (2) the Holy Koran is in Arabic and (3) the tongue of the dwellers of paradise shall also be Arabic."
"(O Prophet) tell people if you really love Allah, follow me, and if you act like this, then Allah will love you, too, and He will forgive your sins." (The House of Imran, III: 30)
Thus, to be a Muslim, a non-Arab believer has to live as an Arab to qualify for Allah's love and pardon. All Muslims must learn the Arabic language to be able to recite the Quran and to offer prayers, adopt Arabic names and conform to Islamic (read Bedouin Arab) culture. This is naked Arab imperialism in the guise of religion.
The hadeeth above is Daeef (WEAK) and is not authentic.
Thats your opinion about naked Arab imperialism.
Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: You say Islam came and smashed the core of Christianity in reference to me and how im seeing Islam, but the 'core' of Christianity as you see it is Jesus being either the son of God or God himself, or both, I never believed that anyway when I WAS a Christian, so thats not it
You say you never believed that when you was Christian, it means you wasn't a Christian but it was only label, the core of Christianity is the redemption of Jesus on cross not only the title son of God which Quran failed to change it from Christian's minds because it's matching the logic, when the angel came to Mary, informed her, God would send a gift to her a (boy) his name would be Messiah as per bible and Quran sura 3:45
" The angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter "
Have you Noticed the words " Allah giveth…a word from him…his name is ISA" Logically because the boy hadn't an earthy father ,his name came from God directly,so people simply called him son of God regardless of what he did or said after that ,that's the story as you know and if you can call him other than son of God or Son of Mariam your help will be appreciated.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
I TIMOTHY 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Proof from the Qur'an and Sunnah that the Attributes of Allah are to be taken literally
As for the Qur'an:
Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
Very convincing proof. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics and qualities to nonhuman beings, inanimate objects, or natural or supernatural phenomena. Animals, forces of nature, and unseen or unknown sources of chance are frequent subjects of anthropomorphous. The term is derived from two Greek words, anthropos, meaning human, and morphe, meaning shape or form. ...
It is a common and seemingly natural tendency for humans to perceive nonhuman animals or inanimate objects as having human characteristics, one which some suggest provides a window into the way in which humans perceive themselves. Common examples of this tendency include naming cars or begging machines to work. It is also probably true that humans have a natural tendency to deny common traits with other species, most particularly apes, feeling that humans are unique and "special." This tendency may be described as anthropomorphophobia and has been referred to as Anthropodenial by primatologist Frans de Waal, author of Our Inner Ape and other books and articles.
In religions and mythologies
In religion and mythology, anthropomorphism refers to the perception of a divine being or beings in human form, or the recognition of human qualities in these beings. Many mythologies are almost entirely concerned with anthropomorphic deities who express human characteristics such as jealousy, hatred, or love. The Greek gods, such as Zeus and Apollo, were often depicted in human form exhibiting both commendable and despicable human traits. Anthropomorphism in this case is sometimes referred to as Anthropotheism.
In Biblical literalism
Numerous sects throughout history have been called anthropomorphites, including a sect in Egypt in the 4th century, and a group in the Roman Catholic Church in the 10th century, who literally interpreted Genesis chapter 1, verse 27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."
In Hinduism
The ten avatars of the Hindu supreme god Vishnu possess both human and divine forms and qualities, although their degrees of divinity vary. In Vaishnavism, a monotheistic faith, Vishnu is omniscient and benevolent, in contrast to gods of the Greek and Roman religions. See Conceptions of God in Hinduism.
Opposition to anthropomorphism
Many religions and philosophies have condemned anthropomorphism for various reasons. Some Ancient Greek philosophers did not approve of, and were often hostile to their people's mythology. These philosophers often developed monotheistic views. Plato's (427–347 BCE) Demiurge (craftsman) in the Timaeus and Aristotle's (384–322 BCE) prime mover in his Physics are notable examples. The Greek philosopher Xenophanes (570–480 BCE) said that "the greatest god" resembles man "neither in form nor in mind." (Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies V xiv 109.1-3). The similarity of these philosophers' concepts of god to the concepts found in the Bible facilitated the incorporation of much pre-Christian Greek philosophy into the Medieval Christian world view by the Scholastics, most notably Thomas Aquinas. Anthropomorphism of God is condemned by Islam, since Muslims feel that God is beyond human limits of physical comprehension. This conception is also championed by the doctrinal view of Nirguna Brahman.
From the perspective of adherents of religions in which the deity or deities have human characteristics, it may be more accurate to describe the phenomenon as theomorphism, or the giving of divine qualities to humans, rather than anthropomorphism, the giving of human qualities to the divine. According to their beliefs, the deity or deities usually existed before humans, therefore humans were created in the form of the divine. However, for those who do not believe in the doctrine of the religion, the phenomenon can be considered anthropomorphism. In fact, Stewart Elliott Guthrie, in his book Faces in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (1993), theorizes that all religions are simply anthropomorphisms that originate in the human brain's tendency to over-detect the presence or vestiges of other humans in the natural world.
Interestingly, Charles Dodgson's novel Alice's Adventures in Wonderland was banned in Hunan because "animals should not use human language" and it "put animals and human beings on the same level."
quote:Originally posted by Reality_Meanie: Mr. Egypt are you afraid to open the Bible or Torah and look to see if this description is there?
Or are you just asking in order to create an arguement?
as a Muslim , I don't believe what you call the torah say and I was just curious if Ayisha believes the description of God which mentioned in it. and btw, thank you for the lesson
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If on earth, Muslims believe that the uncreated Word of God - i.e., the Quran - is found as a book making it both uncreated and created, then cannot the uncreated Word of God be revealed as a human, if God willed it? That God has willed this is revealed in the testimony of the Gospels - God's eternal self-expression, His Word, His Son, has entered human form as Jesus the Messiah.
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Hubby says I think too much
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This is saying we believe He has a face but we believe that 'contrarily to the innovators', what does that mean?