I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
I only listed a few things, but I can certainly post more for those who are interested.
quote: The prophet Mohammed, salallahu alayhi wassalam repeatedly told his sahabah of the effect a good attitude would have in forming an Islamic personality and in raising a person's status in the sight of Allah... The prophet, salallahu alayhi wassalam told them, "Among the best of you are those who have the best attitude towards others"
quote: "The most beloved to me and the closest to me on the Day of Resurrection will be those of you who have the best attitudes. And the most hateful to me and the furthest from me on the Day of Resurrection will be the prattlers and boasters and al-mutafayhiqoon." The sahabah said, "O Messenger of Allah, we understand who the prattlers and boasters are, but who are al-mutafayhiqoon?" He said, "The proud and arrogant."
*Tirmidhi, 3/249, in Abwaab al-Birr, hadith no 70.
quote: "Nothing will weigh more heavily in the balance of the believing servant on the Day of Resurrection than a good attitude towards others. Verily Allah hates those who utter vile words and obscene speech."
*Tirmidhi 3/244, in Abwaab al-Birr, baab husn al-khulq.
quote: "No greater deed will be placed in the balance than a good attitude towards others. A good attitude towards others will bring a person up to the level of fasting and prayer."
*Tirmidhi, 3/245, Abwaab al-Birr was-Silah, 61.
quote: "O' Abu Dharr, shall I not tell you of two qualities which are easy to attain but which will weigh more heavily in the balance?" He said, "Of course, O' Messenger of Allah." He said, "You should have a good attitude towards others and remain silent for lengthy periods. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, nothing that people have ever attained is better than these two."
*Abu Ya'la and Tabaraani: Al-Awsat; the men of Abu Ya'la are thiqaat. See majma' az-Zawaa 'id, 8/22
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
EDIT***
my sincere apologies LovedOne, thought you were someone else!
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
Thank you for the lovely words.
In the 4 months that I have been here, it happened on a fairly regular basis that someone gets fed up with the tone of the forum, and posts a "please behave" message in one form or another. Having observed the dynamics of the forum, I would classify those who cause the discord into two categories:
1. Deliberate Saboteurs: Their agenda is slander and discord. If things become civilized and go in a direction against their agenda, they work harder to get it back to slander and discord.
Solution: Ignore their posts. Provocative as they may be, do not respond at all. There is simply no other way. "Convincing" them is a lost cause. They are already convinced. Same Internet rule applies here: Don't feed the troll.
2. Thrill Seekers: They find exchanging insults more exciting than exchanging ideas. The personal like or dislike they have shapes who they respond to and how. Who wrote a post trumps what is in the post. At times, they will post something for the sole purpose of "trapping their enemies."
Solution: I can only remind those who are religious to look at what they do and realize that just because we are on the Internet with alias names does not mean that we are not accountable to God for what we say. This is not a game. The "fun" you are having here can be very expensive when it matters. If you are verbally attacked, just ignore it or respond "May God forgive you" and move on.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote: "The most beloved to me and the closest to me on the Day of Resurrection will be those of you who have the best attitudes. And the most hateful to me and the furthest from me on the Day of Resurrection will be the prattlers and boasters and al-mutafayhiqoon." The sahabah said, "O Messenger of Allah, we understand who the prattlers and boasters are, but who are al-mutafayhiqoon?" He said, "The proud and arrogant."
wonderful. Posted by Almaz. (Member # 14025) on :
quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect:
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
Thank you for the lovely words.
In the 4 months that I have been here, it happened on a fairly regular basis that someone gets fed up with the tone of the forum, and posts a "please behave" message in one form or another. Having observed the dynamics of the forum, I would classify those who cause the discord into two categories:
1. Deliberate Saboteurs: Their agenda is slander and discord. If things become civilized and go in a direction against their agenda, they work harder to get it back to slander and discord.
Solution: Ignore their posts. Provocative as they may be, do not respond at all. There is simply no other way. "Convincing" them is a lost cause. They are already convinced. Same Internet rule applies here: Don't feed the troll.
2. Thrill Seekers: They find exchanging insults more exciting than exchanging ideas. The personal like or dislike they have shapes who they respond to and how. Who wrote a post trumps what is in the post. At times, they will post something for the sole purpose of "trapping their enemies."
Solution: I can only remind those who are religious to look at what they do and realize that just because we are on the Internet with alias names does not mean that we are not accountable to God for what we say. This is not a game. The "fun" you are having here can be very expensive when it matters. If you are verbally attacked, just ignore it or respond "May God forgive you" and move on.
And I would add, even those that are not Religious could maybe remember that insulting, offending, attacking, using foul language, slander other religions on a regular basis 'anywhere' forum or not, does indeed reflect very bad intentions and an ill mind. Maybe those - Religious or not - that keep up with the above, should seek some therapy for their own sake, as it must be extremely tiring to always project 'hate' I believe.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
31:18 You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth carefree. God does not like the arrogant showoffs.
16:125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.
41:34 Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
49:11 O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote: 49:11 O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.
Thanks for reminding us. I guess sometimes the religion section can be good. Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
excellent posts !
P I - you are absolutely right in your assessment. and Loved One....thanks for the reminder.
Now THIS is what this section should be used for !
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
Ladies you need to actually name and call members out if you are serious. The culprits should be called out because this beating around the bush does nothing at all. If you truly identify some members as being detrimental to the general well being of this forum then please publicly state who you deem is the culprit.
This ambiguously vague stance is worthless. Please be brave enough to state your opinions. If you sincerely want to send a message then a vague one is not the way to go about it.
Posted by LovedOne (Member # 10222) on :
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne:
I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
This wasn't about calling anyone in particular out. Just a general reminder to us all.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne:
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne:
I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
This wasn't about calling anyone in particular out. Just a general reminder to us all.
It is genuinely nice of you - but if members here are sincere and you certainly can amass a valid and strong enough voice to make a difference. Then please exercise it.
Such as is - is the equivalent of a non-binding resolution. The members in this thread can make a difference and they should.
Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
Exiled, Darlin' What purpose or what could possibly be gained by naming names or calling them out? Members that are purposely starting fights, stating their opinions in an obnoxious way, or nitpicking each other to death, are quite aware of what they are doing, and in my opinion, they are not worth my breath or my time to worry about. They are obviously people that have an agenda, or are very unhappy in their own personal lives, or are very mistaken in their belief system. What possible good will it do to go after them. They are to be pitied, dont ya think? Imagine all the time and effort that it takes to go to all that trouble to cut and paste their various crappy things, or try to substantiate their various "proofs" to try and get someone on their side. I am sure that there are quite a few people that could come back at them quoting the Quran or the Bible at them (myself included), but, like me -they just shake their head at the screen and move on. I have better things to do with my life, than bother answering every stupid thing that I come across online. Sure - it bothers me when Islam gets misquoted by misguided people, and it also bothers me when the Christian side get attacked. I found out a while ago that you cannot force your ideas on religion on anyone. I wish that the whole world could see their religion in the peaceful way that it was intended to be, but God has His reasons, and he created us all differently, and I would just be banging my head against the wall to try and go against that.
what do you think? Is it REALLY worth it? Would I REALLY be able to change ANYONE's mind?
I can tell that you really REALLY care, and I worry that its eating away at your heart.
Breathe. Relax. its really not worth it. Use your delete key, and laugh at their foolishness.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
^^ What do I think?
I think ES should learn the word 3adalah/adala/عدالة
Arabs and Muslims are tainted left and right by regular members on ES and then these same people who belittle Muslims and Arabs are having a jolly good time with other members – like if their hate for Muslims and Arabs just disappeared. I will use Tiger Lilly as a perfect example so maybe you can feel what I feel:
What if I said : ‘those people’ – ‘are intolerant’ – ‘typical white person mentality’
عدالة This is what I want jean.
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
Exiled:
I understand where you are coming from. Let me explain why I suggested the approach that I did. One of my principles in life is to act for a purpose not for a reason. The distinction is that a reason is what happened before you act, while a purpose is what will happen after you act.
What you are suggesting would serve a purpose if there were moderator action. There isn't. That's the reality of this forum. Absent that, the only effective way to make the forum better is to ignore the garbage and focus on the constructive discussions. The rule "Don't feed the troll" does work if people stick to it.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
I agree with everyone it's so much easier to be nice, kind, forgiving and all that individually speaking ...
we all eventually come to this point at certain times, however this message board hasn't been maintained for just too long so hardly can you achieve that in already created chaos.
On the message board as it is now, solution is not to wait passively until 'something happens'.
Well, look how many months and days nothing changed? When you ignore issues, you pretty much "accept" status quo.
On most message boards spam is not wanted and it's removed immediately. This message board is abandoned so members have a choice to either a) leave or b) ignore or c) fight the issues ( not necessarily spam )
Many chose option a. Many chose option b. Some chose option c.
Both a) and b) did not work.
So I believe option c) is the only way.
After the message board is cleaned up and balance created, members could perhaps set a standard for debate and keep the balance of the board creating healthy climate for everyone interested.
It's possible! Also the good thing is that people want to talk about it.
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I agree with everyone it's so much easier to be nice, kind, forgiving and all that individually speaking ...
we all eventually come to this point at certain times, however this message board hasn't been maintained for just too long so hardly can you achieve that in already created chaos.
On the message board as it is now, solution is not to wait passively until 'something happens'.
Well, look how many months and days nothing changed? When you ignore issues, you pretty much "accept" status quo.
On most message boards spam is not wanted and it's removed immediately. This message board is abandoned so members have a choice to either a) leave or b) ignore or c) fight the issues ( not necessarily spam )
Many chose option a. Many chose option b. Some chose option c.
Both a) and b) did not work.
So I believe option c) is the only way.
After the message board is cleaned up and balance created, members could perhaps set a standard for debate and keep the balance of the board creating healthy climate for everyone interested.
It's possible! Also the good thing is that people want to talk about it.
Resistance is futile.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
You again! So since you are following me all over the egyptsearch.com aren't you going to help this place be a better place?
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: You again! So since you are following me all over the egyptsearch.com aren't you going to help this place be a better place?
It's called ES, if it wasn't it would be wwww.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi
Anywayz, I follow you around because you are so hilarious. Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
Loved One what is the name of this book, anyways. sounds like something I might like to read too.
Posted by LovedOne (Member # 10222) on :
Hello Jean Bean The name of the book is The Ideal Muslimah by Muhammad Ali Al-Hashimi. A friend of mine bought it for me while she was in Pakistan but I'm sure you could probably find it in Egypt or on Amazon. Great book, I'm really really loving it. I'll probably go back and re-read it a little slower after I finish it the first time.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Personally, I don't like it at all. It's the kind of "Islamic literature" I find extremely offputting (and degrading). Too many *musts* and stuff like "women must be obedient to the husband" and "he has more rights over her" etc.
For example the claim that a woman gains entry to paradise through her husband is un-Islamic and slightly blasphemic imho. And there are many claims like that in the text: The Muslim woman does not forget that her obedience to her husband is one of the things that may lead her to Paradise, as the Prophet (PBUH) said:
"If a woman prays her five daily prayers, fasts her month (of Ramadan), obeys her husband and guards her chastity, then it will be said to her: `Enter Paradise by whichever of its gates you wish.'"14 Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said: "The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: `Any woman who dies, and her husband is pleased with her, will enter Paradise.'"
The true Muslim woman knows that Islam, which has multiplied her reward for obeying her husband and made it a means of her admittance to Paradise, has also warned every woman who deviates from the path of marital obedience and neglects to take care of her husband, that she will be guilty of sin, and will incur the wrath and curses of the angels.
Bukhari and Muslim report from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (PBUH) said:
"If a man calls his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he goes to sleep angry with her, the angels will curse her until the morning."
Posted by LovedOne (Member # 10222) on :
Well Dalia, I guess it all depends on how you interpret things. I don't find taking care of my husband in the proper Islamic manner to be a chore or "degrading". I love him and am happy to please him in whatever way I can. I would suggest that if you have problems with the things that you quoted, that they are simply that, "your" problems. Best wishes in sorting that out.
Posted by doodlebug (Member # 11649) on :
Loved One I read all through the link that Dalia posted and although I had issues with some of the things in there for the mostpart it was a wonderful reading and I learned a lot from it.
I have to say, the things that I had issues with were because of the way I was brought up. There is so much that we just don't know on this earth and I believe that all will be revealed when it is time so although I may trudge through some of the things in there I do it for the sake of Allah. I am sooooo trudging at times and falter many times but I am definitely trying to plough through. Thanks for this thread I think any forum could take these suggestions.
Posted by LovedOne (Member # 10222) on :
You read the whole book in a day? It's 522 pages!! Or do you just mean that you looked through the chapter titles? Anyways, we all falter, none of us is perfect.
But it's great that you still keep trying regardless. That's really important, not to give up. Posted by doodlebug (Member # 11649) on :
Noooo!!! lol I have known about that link for a long time! I think I have a link to it on my blog. I didn't just see it here. I have that site bookmarked and go to it when I need to look up various sunnah.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I would suggest that if you have problems with the things that you quoted, that they are simply that, "your" problems. Best wishes in sorting that out.
I find it strange and sad that you feel the need to personally attack me, especially after you were the one who started this thread which should remind us to deal respectfully with others, even if we disagree with them.
I gave the link because I happened to know where it was, so everyone is free to read and form an opinion for themselves. I don't think there is anything wrong with me giving my personal opinion at the same time. Just like you, I have read the book. And I happen to have a different opinion about it than you. So what? I did not say you are having personal issues or try to insult you because you happen to like it.
I have said I feel offended by some things in the text and I regard some of them as un-Islamic. Usually, whenever I criticize something, I give reference as well as reasons why; so everyone can see where my opinion is coming from and can agree or disagree. However, getting personal instead usually makes any kind of serious exchange difficult.
You are correct, some things in this text *I* have a problem with, because *I* have never in my life been made to think or feel that there is anything I could not do or that I should be treated in a different way because I am a woman; I have never been made to feel I need to be obedient to a man and "put his wishes and pleasures before my own", simply because he is a man; the concept of this simply seems bizarre and ridiculous to me. It has never occurred to me that God wants another person to control me or that my main goal in life should be a mother and wife, otherwise I should be lacking in fulfilling a religious duty.
I also believe that I have a right to my body and my emotions; so the concept that I should be obliged to have sex with someone because this person supposedly has a greater right over my body than myself is likewise bizarre to me -- and very offending. The idea of a man forcing himself on me when I am not in the mood (for whatever reason!!!) is highly repulsive and disgusting. If you find that normal and non-objectionable, fine. But claiming this is a part of religion is a slap in the face of all women in this world who are suffering from marital rape and can't go to court because they happen to be living in a country where the laws give her husband the right to have sex with her anytime he wishes, because people like the author of that book claim that's God's command.
Again, the concept of marital rape in Islam and whether the husband has the right to force his wife to have sex has been discussed on here countless times. And if you take a look at those threads you might see that it's not only *me* who has a problem with this concept. I'd say any woman with a healthy sense of self-worth would find this appalling.
So does this mean I need "sorting out" because I don't comply with some mens' personal views on how the ideal woman or the ideal Muslima or the ideal daughter / mother / wife / sister should be? I don't think so. And it's a bit of a vain argument anyway because I know there are many people in this world who happen to share my point of view.
Also there are enough men -- Muslim and non-Muslim -- who don't want their wife to be a slave who feels "that a woman was barely qualified to wipe the dust from her husband's feet with her face" and that she has to be obedient all the time and should somehow be inferior to him. Alhamdullilah!
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I don't find taking care of my husband in the proper Islamic manner to be a chore or "degrading". I love him and am happy to please him in whatever way I can.
I don't find it in any way degrading to take care of your loved ones, quite the opposite! But there's a big difference between lovingly caring for someone and the relationship that I see described in some parts of this book. Love, care and respect are things that need to reciprocal, they can't grow properly in a relationship where one partner is dominating the other and / or given more rights.
If you want to be submissive to your husband, that is your choice alone. But claiming, for example, that a woman has to have sex with her husband whenever he wishes, regardless of her personal emotions, trying to make her feel guilty if she refuses, telling her she is committing a grave sin and God will be angry at her, that's a diferent matter altogether. Yes, I think it's very un-Islamic, and also it's simply un-humane.
The Qur'an is pretty clear on those things and on the relationship between husband and wife, which is described in beautiful terms in some verses. It does not say women are lesser than men or anything to that extent, but the author of said text does. He claims to be speaking in God's name, but it's clear that he is presenting his personal opinion on many things rather than divine rules.
For example he keeps stressing that household and children are the woman's prime responsibility and the most important thing for her. The text claims that the prophet's wives are a good example to follow. But there are many ahadeeth telling us that the prophet mended his own clothes, helped his wives in the household as much as he could, loved taking care of his kids etc. Now why are those not given the same importance and mentioning here?
Most of us know that according to the Qur'an every human being is being judged for their own deeds and intentions and that that nobody bears responsibility for another person. Yet here we read that the husband is some kind of intermediate between woman and God, we are told that through HIM she gets to paradise or not.
This is a very debatable and strange thing to say. You could have addressed this very valid point of mine and maybe explained your point of view on this issue. Instead you avoid direct conversation by insinuating there must either be something wrong with me personally or with my understanding of Islamic sources.
What I was and am addressing is what I percieve as a very dishonest way of presenting things ... too many subjective things are being presented as *truth*, while in fact the choice and selection of material used to make particular points is highly subjective.
It would be more beneficial if you could just address the points I made if you disagree with them, rather than trying to made snide remarks. I remember you've done that before when I explained that and why I don't accept authority for authority's sake. I don't understand what's so offensive about this, but for some reason it seems to bother you. Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: I have said I feel offended by some things in the text and I regard some of them as un-Islamic." .... "For example he keeps stressing that household and children are the woman's prime responsibility and the most important thing for her."
How dare he distort Islam like that!!! Real Islam teaches feminism. Some people just don't get it. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
is there no book based on Islamic text about 'The Ideal Muslim Husband'?? or are they all deemed as perfect because they are men?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Real Islam teaches feminism. Some people just don't get it.
Bezzabt kidda, ya UC. You finally got it. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: is there no book based on Islamic text about 'The Ideal Muslim Husband'?? or are they all deemed as perfect because they are men?
I remember we discussed those "how to treat your wife" and "how to treat your husband" texts a while ago. Didn't it say the husband should always speak with his wife "slowly and clearly until she understands", and he should "teach" her about Islam and make sure she leaves the house "properly clothed" etc.?
Personally, I don't like it at all. It's the kind of "Islamic literature" I find extremely offputting (and degrading). Too many *musts* and stuff like "women must be obedient to the husband" and "he has more rights over her" etc.
For example the claim that a woman gains entry to paradise through her husband is un-Islamic and slightly blasphemic imho. And there are many claims like that in the text: The Muslim woman does not forget that her obedience to her husband is one of the things that may lead her to Paradise, as the Prophet (PBUH) said:
"If a woman prays her five daily prayers, fasts her month (of Ramadan), obeys her husband and guards her chastity, then it will be said to her: `Enter Paradise by whichever of its gates you wish.'"14 Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said: "The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: `Any woman who dies, and her husband is pleased with her, will enter Paradise.'"
The true Muslim woman knows that Islam, which has multiplied her reward for obeying her husband and made it a means of her admittance to Paradise, has also warned every woman who deviates from the path of marital obedience and neglects to take care of her husband, that she will be guilty of sin, and will incur the wrath and curses of the angels.
Bukhari and Muslim report from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (PBUH) said:
"If a man calls his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he goes to sleep angry with her, the angels will curse her until the morning."
so why is it i heard that islam respects women? everything i read here does nothing but disrespect women Posted by bokragirl (Member # 14684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: • Avoid that your husband observes you in dirty clothes or rough shape.
Too late.
I dont remember seeing this before Dalia, its funny
no kidding! if i had to look pretty every time i was sick we'd have some problems
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Let's not ruin the point of the topic which is how we treat each other. I believe that Loved One simply tried to communicate with Muslim ladies who feel like her, and everyone took it in their own way.
I understood this topic as a message to members of how to treat each other, so I replied in that manner like a few others.
Loved One was refering to "good attitude", it's simply a matter of how man and woman learn to respect each other ( to be nice, kind, to think before you say something, to wait, to listen, to hear, to be patient...) that can benefit everyone.
For some people you could, you would, you should go extra mile, and for some you don't. It's simply between man and woman and how they relate to each other.
Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
oh yeah...If I was expected to look loverly everytime the hubby came home, I woulda gotten a divorce on the first week or so. I don't dress up around the house, and neither does he. Both are currently in sweats, sox and slippers. We ain't gorgeous, but we is warm !
And I am a person that leans more towards the "equal" thing. He gets up first in the morning and makes the coffee, and I make coffee for us at night. He does stuff around the house, and I am NOT the bestest of housekeepers - but he doesn't care, and neither do I. When the dust gets bad -we both attack it. I think I do more of the housekeeping, but he does more of the grocery shopping, takes care of the car, takes stuff to the ironing guy. I know that he likes to watch more football or news than I do - so that is my computer time. Its more 50/50 in my house
And I am of the belief that I, alone, am answerable to God for my actions, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with my hubby. Unless I was a totally rotten person to him - then I would be answerable to God, just like if I was rotten to someone else.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
We're a bit like that too Jean. He will cook if I dont want to or if he wants to anyway, he likes to cook Alhamdulillah, then leaves the kitchen for me to clean up!
Housework is same, either we both have a go or I do it when he's out of the way or he will do it if i'm out.
If he's in 'that' mood, he will sometimes go through the wardrobe and present me with what he wants me wearing but we know marriage is a two way thing and if im happy then hes happy Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
You know what drives me nuts – the fridge. That is something that I have to do by myself. Like the saying goes ‘if you want it done – do it yourself’.
The fridge is rarely organized and that’s okay but foods and vegetables literally get lost. So this morning I cleaned it out and rearranged everything. You know how in the bottom there are compartments for fruits and vegetables. NOT ANY MORE. Vegetables get lost down there!
I want all fruits and vegetable to be within sight. So the vegetable compartment is now for olives – I placed each in a jar. We currently have 3 kinds of olives. It is also for the cheeses. The fruit compartment is used for spinach, parsley and coriander because we stock large amounts of those they don’t go bad as quick.
The other vegetables are in a plastic tray – cleaned and in sight of the naked eye. The door also has one row for vegetables that get lost like the chillis, the zucchinis and other vegetables that get less over time. So for example if we are down to only a few carrots then they will be stored on the door – in open sight.
I was looking for leek the other day and it was beginning to rot.
My new system will prevent waste of vegetables Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
3 kinds of olive, YUK!!! I hate Olives
I cant get the coriander or other green flowery stuff to last longer than 2 days!!
I hate cleaning the fridge out too though Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: 3 kinds of olive, YUK!!! I hate Olives
I cant get the coriander or other green flowery stuff to last longer than 2 days!!
I hate cleaning the fridge out too though
I was the same way about olives too Ayisha but Egypt made me become fond of them. Try the Kalamata ones – they taste delicious. Stay away from the ones they have in small shops – the vinegar and salt solution is almost always too strong.
Yeah we usually stock only 2 kinds Spanish/Greek black olives and the Green ones but now we also have black olives that were brined in water. These olives are sliced and used as Pizza topping as the pickled ones taste gross with pizza.
Posted by Politically Incorrect (Member # 14181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I would suggest that if you have problems with the things that you quoted, that they are simply that, "your" problems. Best wishes in sorting that out.
I find it strange and sad that you feel the need to personally attack me, especially after you were the one who started this thread which should remind us to deal respectfully with others, even if we disagree with them.
I gave the link because I happened to know where it was, so everyone is free to read and form an opinion for themselves. I don't think there is anything wrong with me giving my personal opinion at the same time. Just like you, I have read the book. And I happen to have a different opinion about it than you. So what? I did not say you are having personal issues or try to insult you because you happen to like it.
I have said I feel offended by some things in the text and I regard some of them as un-Islamic. Usually, whenever I criticize something, I give reference as well as reasons why; so everyone can see where my opinion is coming from and can agree or disagree. However, getting personal instead usually makes any kind of serious exchange difficult.
You are correct, some things in this text *I* have a problem with, because *I* have never in my life been made to think or feel that there is anything I could not do or that I should be treated in a different way because I am a woman; I have never been made to feel I need to be obedient to a man and "put his wishes and pleasures before my own", simply because he is a man; the concept of this simply seems bizarre and ridiculous to me. It has never occurred to me that God wants another person to control me or that my main goal in life should be a mother and wife, otherwise I should be lacking in fulfilling a religious duty.
I also believe that I have a right to my body and my emotions; so the concept that I should be obliged to have sex with someone because this person supposedly has a greater right over my body than myself is likewise bizarre to me -- and very offending. The idea of a man forcing himself on me when I am not in the mood (for whatever reason!!!) is highly repulsive and disgusting. If you find that normal and non-objectionable, fine. But claiming this is a part of religion is a slap in the face of all women in this world who are suffering from marital rape and can't go to court because they happen to be living in a country where the laws give her husband the right to have sex with her anytime he wishes, because people like the author of that book claim that's God's command.
Again, the concept of marital rape in Islam and whether the husband has the right to force his wife to have sex has been discussed on here countless times. And if you take a look at those threads you might see that it's not only *me* who has a problem with this concept. I'd say any woman with a healthy sense of self-worth would find this appalling.
So does this mean I need "sorting out" because I don't comply with some mens' personal views on how the ideal woman or the ideal Muslima or the ideal daughter / mother / wife / sister should be? I don't think so. And it's a bit of a vain argument anyway because I know there are many people in this world who happen to share my point of view.
Also there are enough men -- Muslim and non-Muslim -- who don't want their wife to be a slave who feels "that a woman was barely qualified to wipe the dust from her husband's feet with her face" and that she has to be obedient all the time and should somehow be inferior to him. Alhamdullilah!
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I don't find taking care of my husband in the proper Islamic manner to be a chore or "degrading". I love him and am happy to please him in whatever way I can.
I don't find it in any way degrading to take care of your loved ones, quite the opposite! But there's a big difference between lovingly caring for someone and the relationship that I see described in some parts of this book. Love, care and respect are things that need to reciprocal, they can't grow properly in a relationship where one partner is dominating the other and / or given more rights.
If you want to be submissive to your husband, that is your choice alone. But claiming, for example, that a woman has to have sex with her husband whenever he wishes, regardless of her personal emotions, trying to make her feel guilty if she refuses, telling her she is committing a grave sin and God will be angry at her, that's a diferent matter altogether. Yes, I think it's very un-Islamic, and also it's simply un-humane.
The Qur'an is pretty clear on those things and on the relationship between husband and wife, which is described in beautiful terms in some verses. It does not say women are lesser than men or anything to that extent, but the author of said text does. He claims to be speaking in God's name, but it's clear that he is presenting his personal opinion on many things rather than divine rules.
For example he keeps stressing that household and children are the woman's prime responsibility and the most important thing for her. The text claims that the prophet's wives are a good example to follow. But there are many ahadeeth telling us that the prophet mended his own clothes, helped his wives in the household as much as he could, loved taking care of his kids etc. Now why are those not given the same importance and mentioning here?
Most of us know that according to the Qur'an every human being is being judged for their own deeds and intentions and that that nobody bears responsibility for another person. Yet here we read that the husband is some kind of intermediate between woman and God, we are told that through HIM she gets to paradise or not.
This is a very debatable and strange thing to say. You could have addressed this very valid point of mine and maybe explained your point of view on this issue. Instead you avoid direct conversation by insinuating there must either be something wrong with me personally or with my understanding of Islamic sources.
What I was and am addressing is what I percieve as a very dishonest way of presenting things ... too many subjective things are being presented as *truth*, while in fact the choice and selection of material used to make particular points is highly subjective.
It would be more beneficial if you could just address the points I made if you disagree with them, rather than trying to made snide remarks. I remember you've done that before when I explained that and why I don't accept authority for authority's sake. I don't understand what's so offensive about this, but for some reason it seems to bother you.
Hi, Dalia
Thank you for posting this detailed point of view. It helped me understand where you are coming from.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote: You are correct, some things in this text *I* have a problem with, because *I* have never in my life been made to think or feel that there is anything I could not do or that I should be treated in a different way because I am a woman; I have never been made to feel I need to be obedient to a man and "put his wishes and pleasures before my own", simply because he is a man; the concept of this simply seems bizarre and ridiculous to me. It has never occurred to me that God wants another person to control me or that my main goal in life should be a mother and wife, otherwise I should be lacking in fulfilling a religious duty.
Dalia, I also have a problem with it.
I have lived this life of believing that I was pleasing God when I pleased my husband. It happens in Christianity too. Problem was I could never please my husband so I kept trying harder. Until one day I gave up. Kinda like a dog chasing his own tail. I remember sitting in church listening to the preacher telling us how we needed to serve God and I thought...I can't do it anymore, I'm too weak. I eventually realized that God doesn't want me treated like this that and that I was teaching my children to sacrifice themselves for everyone else.
It seems to me when a person gives an opinion of something they think; like having slaves and raping them is wrong then people think they are speaking against Islam. Or if you voice that you think having sex with a child is wrong, then you are accused of being against Islam. Is this what Islam is? It sure is confusing to me.
I am offended on a regular basis with respect to how women are degraded on ES. It seems that no one notices or cares how women are demeaned on this site. Yet dare not say any thing that may offend "a man".
I thought men were suppose to be the stronger ones. Honestly when I look around, what I see mostly are strong women and weak men.
PI, I see strength in you. Just wanted to let you know that I see it, for what it's worth.
I am having a hard time posting this so I hope what I said here is understood how I mean it and not as a criticism of an others religion.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
I see this as an attack on Loved One because she views her marriage unlike some other women.
It's attack on her because she did not say anything to cause such feedback.
She simply stated she supports good attitude, and wanted to share her feeling about it.
I as a Muslim woman haven never been tretead in the way described, and despite such fact I haven't found what Loved One explained as offensive.
She had never said that she is supportive of mistreatment of women, yet this thread turned again into 'another stupid Muslim woman who is obedient to her husband'.
This is so unfair. We don't know how she is with her husband.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I see this as an attack on Loved One because she views her marriage unlike some other women.
It's attack on her because she did not say anything to cause such feedback.
She simply stated she supports good attitude, and wanted to share her feeling about it.
I as a Muslim woman haven never been tretead in the way described, and despite such fact I haven't found what Loved One explained as offensive.
She had never said that she is supportive of mistreatment of women, yet this thread turned again into 'another stupid Muslim woman who is obedient to her husband'.
This is so unfair. We don't know how she is with her husband.
Mashaa Allah a very intellegent response. Barakallahu feekum. What LovedOne has written initally is/were the ahadeeth of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalaam. They are his words and his naseehah to the Believing Women first and foremost. He salallahu alayhi wassalaam was sent as a mercy for ALL of mankind and he salallahu alayhi wassalam would not have advise the women to do something which was not beneficial for themselves in this life, life in the grave and in the life in the hereafter.
No one complains about how a woman is supposed to treat here children, male or female and the rewards she receives in caring for them in the dunya as well as the akhirah. So why try to focus or single out the rewards (which are many mashaa Allah) in this life as well as in the life in the hereafter for a woman who take care of the needs of here husband who is here other half, her garment.
O Muslim Sisters don't let someone try to influence you that loving and caring for your family is something to be ashame of or that you should inferior or a 2nd class citizen for doing so. No, shower your husband and if you have them children with love and affection and take care of them and nurture them with all that Allah has given you. Make your intention pure and soley for the pleasure of Allah Azza wa Jal and you will recieve a tremendous benefit and see the fruits of your efforts in this life as well what is/has been written for you in the hereafter bi'itinillah.
Just because some men don't fulfill their obligation and responsibilities doesn't mean that a women should not fulfill her obligations. We Muslims are advised to treat others better than we treat ourselves. To put the needs of others BEFRORE the needs of ourselves, and this holds true whether we are male or female.
Here is another special hadeeth of the Prophet Salallahu alayhi wassalaam: "When servant takes care of the needs of another person, then Allah takes care of his need (the one who help take care of the person in need)." This includes your husband, mother, friend relative whomever! So love and take care of your hubands sisters and don't be ashame or afraid of what someone tells you, for you have been given supreme advice from the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam in this regard, and his salallahu alayhi wassalaam's guidance is the best guidance.
BTW There is an very good book (which somone here said may not exist) called the "The Ideal Muslim" by Muhammad Ali Al-Hashimiit it's the book written for Men verse the book "The Ideal Muslimah" by the same author. If you have a male husband, a brother, uncle or cousin and they read English why not purchase it as a gift for them, you will not regret it.
In closing we Muslims must remember that male and females have different roles and responsibilities in soceity. We must not get confused and thing that our way of life (deen) needs to be change or is not fulfilling just because it does not conform to the way of the non-Muslims. They have their own way of living and we have ourselves. They have their own goals and objectives in the dunya and akhirah and we have ours. The two are not the same and they oppose each other in both worlds.
So keep your eyes on the prize which is Jannatul Firdous and strive with your whole self to obtain that goal, seeking the face of Allah Tabaraka Ta'ala and do not let the shayaateen or Iblis distract and fool you for sure his goal is for you to not reach yours i.e. Jannatul Firdous.
Remember in Allah is the tawfiq (success).
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote: Originally posted by lovingmylife: For some people you could, you would, you should go extra mile, and for some you don't.
Great, I get it now. Thanks for sharing. Posted by Farquhar (Member # 14656) on :
Loved one - Good topic , I do have to say though, that as a muslim woman myself I would also be cringing at the parts Dalia quoted.
LML - I dont think this has turned into any criticism of Lovedone for what she believes or how she lives her life AT ALL, Dalia just pointed out how she felt and things sge would not be comfortable with, and IMO did recieve a reply suggesting it was 'her' problem, which is not very warm and friendly - we all have different views, different ways of living and will interpret things in our own way, I think thats what makes life interesting and I dont think any of us would be here if we just all agreed with each other all the time - I know, hard to imagine hey?
Dalia and Jean Bean, I loved your posts on here. My Husband also helps me with the housework, if i cook, he washes up - I love that.
Exiled - You are sooooo right about the veggies going off in the trays in the bottom of the fridge, mine do too!
Ayisha - I freeze my corriander, in a bag, then i get it out all frozen, crush it in the bag and use what i need and put the rest back in the freezer- works for me Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I see this as an attack on Loved One because she views her marriage unlike some other women.
there were no 'attacks' here until now. Loved one 'did' reply to Dalia with a 'snipe' at her.
quote:It's attack on her because she did not say anything to cause such feedback.
what feedback? she got the feedback of the members reaction to her posting.
quote:She simply stated she supports good attitude, and wanted to share her feeling about it.
that great, and the original post was and still is seen as that.
quote:I as a Muslim woman haven never been tretead in the way described, and despite such fact I haven't found what Loved One explained as offensive.
As a Muslim woman I have never been treated in the way described either and I dont think anyone has seen what LovedOne originally posted as offensive
quote:She had never said that she is supportive of mistreatment of women, yet this thread turned again into 'another stupid Muslim woman who is obedient to her husband'.
This is so unfair. We don't know how she is with her husband.
You are the one thats called it 'another stupid Muslim woman who is obediant to her husband' thread, no one else has.
Dalia pointed out the book that LovedOne had taken the quotes from. The quotes in the post were to do with behaviour 'to each other', not necessarily between a husband and wife, it was nothing to do with that.
Dalia pointed out WHY she didnt like THE BOOK and was sniped at for her opinion on the BOOK.
The thread was not 'turned' by Dalias post it was 'turned' before that with some wanting members 'called out'.
Then we have Holy sands saying its meant for believing women in bold type, wonder if thats a dig at any in particular? One wouldnt expect it in a thread about behaviour towards others would one! Thing is there was nothing in LovedOnes original post directed at believing women it was to everyone!
Then we are blessed with a hadith of sands
quote:O Muslim Sisters don't let someone try to influence you that loving and caring for your family is something to be ashame of or that you should inferior or a 2nd class citizen for doing so. No, shower your husband and if you have them children with love and affection and take care of them and nurture them with all that Allah has given you. Make your intention pure and soley for the pleasure of Allah Azza wa Jal and you will recieve a tremendous benefit and see the fruits of your efforts in this life as well what is/has been written for you in the hereafter bi'itinillah.
I mean really should muslim start of their posts with 'O Muslim Sister' like its from Allah Almighty Himself?
This book is demeaning to women, thats now the arguement here, nothing to do with an 'attack' on anyone and certainly not on LovedOne, although she could have 'discussed' what Dalia had to say instead of sniping at her, which would have been better and shown that she herself had taken on board what she had said in her original post!
Lets not also forget another famous hadith, which is also probably in that same book to get women to 'do as they should'
7:62:125 "Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' "
Yes is IS SAHIH hadith.
Odd thing is that I see a LOT on here is that Dalia also posted verses from QURAN which 'agreed' with the original post, why weren't those verses posted as a means for us to understand how to behave towards each other? They are God's Words, and again they are 'passed over' in favour of hadith.
Dalia did not say anywhere that she didnt want to, or disagreed with, caring for or loving her partner, nowhere did she say that, but again the holy powers have twisted what she has said, and has explained in great detail, to something they see in her post that wasnt there!
In short, there was nothing wrong with LovedOnes original post and no one has said there was. Dalia expressed her feelings towards the book it came from and the author, which others have agreed with, she made references to other things said IN the book and SHE has been 'attacked' for that as being anti-islamic in her thinking. The author of the book is anti-Islamic in his thinking too as proved from Quran.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: [QB] ^^ What do I think?
I think ES should learn the word 3adalah/adala/عدالة
Very nice point. Jazaakum Allahu Khairan for the naseehah.
'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller."
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Why is is attack?
Loved One wanted to post some things from a book that she is currently reading with good intent ( "Seems like we could all benefit" )
When she gave title of the book, this book has been dissaproved and nothing positive was mentioned.
Loved One replied that it all depends on how you interpret things.
She as a Muslim woman doesn't find taking care of her husband in the proper Islamic manner to be a chore or "degrading".
She loves him and is happy to please him in whatever way she can.
What is offensive here? Nothing.
Islam is not degrading her, on contrary I also wish if all men become providers and show more respect and love towards ladies so that we have more Loved Ones posting such threads.
We need more threads like Loved One posts because she is speaking about good experiences, you could learn something from her.
She is happy with Muslim husband ( I assume Egyptian man ) so if you are interested how she makes it, hear her. Let her tell you.
You don't have to like it or agree, but let her express her happiness and share it without being attacked.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I see this as an attack on Loved One because she views her marriage unlike some other women.
It's attack on her because she did not say anything to cause such feedback.
She simply stated she supports good attitude, and wanted to share her feeling about it.
I as a Muslim woman haven never been tretead in the way described, and despite such fact I haven't found what Loved One explained as offensive.
She had never said that she is supportive of mistreatment of women, yet this thread turned again into 'another stupid Muslim woman who is obedient to her husband'.
This is so unfair. We don't know how she is with her husband.
Mashaa Allah a very intellegent response. Barakallahu feekum. What LovedOne has written initally is/were the ahadeeth of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalaam. They are his words and his naseehah to the Believing Women first and foremost.
Thank you Sands. Muslims have duty to take care of each other in our lives, especially our parents, children, wife, husband..
This is the best quality I learned throught Islam, and no matter what anyone says I know for myself and for most Muslims this is not just duty but also sign of caring behavior and compassion people have for each other.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: BTW There is an very good book (which somone here said may not exist) called the "The Ideal Muslim" by Muhammad Ali Al-Hashimiit it's the book written for Men verse the book "The Ideal Muslimah" by the same author. If you have a male husband, a brother, uncle or cousin and they read English why not purchase it as a gift for them, you will not regret it.
I had a read in it the other day.
What I found very strange is that the author keeps talking about "manhood". According to him, the husband is responsible for how his wife dresses, her practice of worship, her conduct etc. And if he loses control over the women in his family he supposedly loses this "manhood". I think this "manhood" issue is a tribal thing, I don't see what it has to do with religion ...
He again stresses the point that it is the husband who leads the wife to paradise or not. Also, it seems to me that the relationship between spouses which he describes seems more like the relationship between a parent and a child, not that between two intellectually, emotionally and spiritually equal persons.
Posted by M*A*S*R*I (Member # 14699) on :
quote:I had a read in it the other day.
What I found very strange is that the author keeps talking about "manhood". According to him, the husband is responsible for how his wife dresses, her practice of worship, her conduct etc. And if he loses control over the women in his family he supposedly loses this "manhood". I think this "manhood" issue is a tribal thing, I don't see what it has to do with religion ...
Any feminist would say the same thing. I know it's your opinion but projecting your own issues on the 2 books and claiming that both books are degrading for women is clearly wrong.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: Any feminist would say the same thing.
I am a feminist.
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: I know it's your opinion but projecting your own issues on the 2 books
I don't remember knowing you or having a conversation with you before, and you just joined the board this month, so I'm wondering how you can *know* whether I have issues and which they might be.
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: claiming that both books are degrading for women is clearly wrong.
Saying that "a woman was barely qualified to wipe the dust from her husband's feet with her face" is not degrading? How would you interpret this statement?
I explained clearly, in detail and with quotes what I found degrading to women. If you are saying they are not, why don't you just address the points I made instead of trying to suggest there is something wrong with my understanding, yet not giving a concrete example of why it should be wrong?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
From the chapter about marriage:
He has a deep and compassionate understanding of her nature and psychology, and he directs her towards the straight path of Islam (...). He recognizes her inclinations, desires and moods, and tries to reconcile between them and the ideal life and behaviour he wants for her, while never forgetting for an instant that she has been created from a bent rib, and straightening a bent rib is impossible. ...
The concern of Islam to affirm man's position of qawwam over women and reinforce her obligation to obey and please him, goes as far as forbidding her to fast at times other than Ramadan or to receive and guests without his permission.
Islam gave the husband this right to be qawwam over his wife so that he will be a real man, knowing how to steer the ship of family life towards the shore of safety and guidance. Islam warns all men against the trial and temptation (fitnah) of women, which may make them heedless and weak, and lessen their religious commitment, so that they turn a blind eye ot the waywardness and unIslamic behaviour of their wifes.
In this way, the female waywardness which we see in many so-called Muslim homes will be done away with. The man who sees his wife, daughters and sisters going out in the street with make-up, uncovered heads and bare arms, clothes but seeming naked, and does nothing to stop this disobedience of Islam, has surely lost his manhood, abandoned Islam and earned the wrath of Allah.
...
The sincere Muslim is responsible for his womenfolk's adherence to the Islamic teachings regarding her going out and the hijab which is the badge of Muslim women. The day when a husband lets his wife or his environment take over and dispenses with this Islamic ruling without being able to stand up to them, is the day he says good-bye to both his religion and his manhood.
The husband's responsibility for his wife does not stop with her outward appearance, but also includes her worship and conduct. He is responsible for her if she omits some act of worship, or if she neglects or deliberately ignores her duties towards Allah. He is responsible for her good behaviour and completion of her duties. Any shortcomings on her part will detract from her husband's manhood, diminish his Islam and damage the role of qawwam with which Allah has honoured him.
Islam considers women to be a trust which has been given to men for safe-keeping. As the wife is usually influenced by her husband, he may take her with him to Paradise or lead her to hell.
Posted by M*A*S*R*I (Member # 14699) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: Any feminist would say the same thing.
I am a feminist.
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: I know it's your opinion but projecting your own issues on the 2 books
I don't remember knowing you or having a conversation with you before, so I'm wondering how you can *know* whether I have issues and which they might be.
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: claiming that both books are degrading for women is clearly wrong.
Saying that "a woman was barely qualified to wipe the dust from her husband's feet with her face" is not degrading? How would you interpret this statement?
If you are saying they are not, why don't you just address the points I made instead of trying to suggest there is something wrong with my understanding, yet not giving a concrete example of why it should be wrong?
No we never had a conversation before but i've been reading ES for a while. and some topics and members are unavoidable
When we talk about relations between men and women then its better to remember what quran and Sunnah said about the subject and not to single situations.for example the Prophet pbuh said: "that heaven is under the feet of mothers"....why didn't you remember that if you are really knowledgeable about Islam!
Islam is a whole and you can't disregard part of it and take the other. I noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points, Yet you are not muslim..so why the trouble of discussing it in first place if you don't believe in Islam?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I:
When we talk about relations between men and women then its better to remember what quran and Sunnah said about the subject and not to single situations.for example the Prophet pbuh said: "that heaven is under the feet of mothers"....why didn't you remember that
If, as you said, you've been reading this board for while -- or even read this thread proplerly -- you should have noticed that this is exactly what I've been doing.
I have repeatedly said that I think the Qur'an describes the relationship between husband and wife in beautiful terms and that I feel all the statements we so often come across, describing a wife as a slave or inferior to her husband are a huge contradiction to that.
I've also said that -- from what I know of the prophet's life -- I don't see that his wife were submisse, opressed etc., quite the opposite. I've posted tons of texts describing that Islam empowers women and that the misogyny we so often come across in texts or actions of Muslims are a problem of patriarchal interpretations and not of Islam itself.
Those statements of mine are allover the place, in fact I'm sure some people have already become bored or annoyed by my repeated mentioning of those things. So it's weird that you haven't come across them although you claim you've read enough of my posts to *know* me.
And if you want to make a positive contribution, why don't you post some nice examples in my thread about great Muslim women:
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points
Errr ... of course I quote from the Qur'an or from Islamic sources if I want to make a point clear. It would hardly make sense to quote from the Bhagavadgita in a discussion about Islam, right? Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I:
Islam is a whole and you can't disregard part of it and take the other. I noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points, Yet you are not muslim..so why the trouble of discussing it in first place if you don't believe in Islam? [/QB]
MASRI did you know she answered the part about quoting Quran and NOT the sunnah, and she also (as usually) did NOT answer the part about her NOT being a Muslim and discussing issues of Islaam in the first place. Here is the piece of advice that I always give regarding Dalia..don't waste your time in endless and fruitless debates with her. You'll be chasing your tail like a dog i.e. just going around in circles.
However, I can tell that you do have encite about her and this is good.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: Islam is a whole and you can't disregard part of it and take the other. I noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points,
Yet you are not muslim..so why the trouble of discussing it in first place if you don't believe in Islam?
I want to know too. Dalia what's the reply on this question?
Posted by gab (Member # 14577) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: BTW There is an very good book (which somone here said may not exist) called the "The Ideal Muslim" by Muhammad Ali Al-Hashimiit it's the book written for Men verse the book "The Ideal Muslimah" by the same author. If you have a male husband, a brother, uncle or cousin and they read English why not purchase it as a gift for them, you will not regret it.
I had a read in it the other day.
What I found very strange is that the author keeps talking about "manhood". According to him, the husband is responsible for how his wife dresses, her practice of worship, her conduct etc. And if he loses control over the women in his family he supposedly loses this "manhood". I think this "manhood" issue is a tribal thing, I don't see what it has to do with religion ...
He again stresses the point that it is the husband who leads the wife to paradise or not. Also, it seems to me that the relationship between spouses which he describes seems more like the relationship between a parent and a child, not that between two intellectually, emotionally and spiritually equal persons.
EXACLY ...that is why they had all this honor killings (they lose face) tell me one more time it has nothing to do with ISLAM Posted by gab (Member # 14577) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I:
Islam is a whole and you can't disregard part of it and take the other. I noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points, Yet you are not muslim..so why the trouble of discussing it in first place if you don't believe in Islam?
MASRI did you know she answered the part about quoting Quran and NOT the sunnah, and she also (as usually) did NOT answer the part about her NOT being a Muslim and discussing issues of Islaam in the first place. Here is the piece of advice that I always give regarding Dalia..don't waste your time in endless and fruitless debates with her. You'll be chasing your tail like a dog i.e. just going around in circles.
However, I can tell that you do have encite about her and this is good. [/QB]
That goes for you to you are a woman hater why are you hiding in the closet Posted by gab (Member # 14577) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife:
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: Islam is a whole and you can't disregard part of it and take the other. I noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points,
Yet you are not muslim..so why the trouble of discussing it in first place if you don't believe in Islam?
I want to know too. Dalia what's the reply on this question?
maybe to understand why muslim are so left behind.. honey Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I:
When we talk about relations between men and women then its better to remember what quran and Sunnah said about the subject and not to single situations.for example the Prophet pbuh said: "that heaven is under the feet of mothers"....why didn't you remember that
If, as you said, you've been reading this board for while -- or even read this thread proplerly -- you should have noticed that this is exactly what I've been doing.
I have repeatedly said that I think the Qur'an describes the relationship between husband and wife in beautiful terms and that I feel all the statements we so often come across, describing a wife as a slave or inferior to her husband are a huge contradiction to that.
I've also said that -- from what I know of the prophet's life -- I don't see that his wife were submisse, opressed etc., quite the opposite. I've posted tons of texts describing that Islam empowers women and that the misogyny we so often come across in texts or actions of Muslims are a problem of patriarchal interpretations and not of Islam itself.
Those statements of mine are allover the place, in fact I'm sure some people have already become bored or annoyed by my repeated mentioning of those things. So it's weird that you haven't come across them although you claim you've read enough of my posts to *know* me.
And if you want to make a positive contribution, why don't you post some nice examples in my thread about great Muslim women:
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: noticed you always use copy/paste from Quran or Sunnah to show your points
Errr ... of course I quote from the Qur'an or from Islamic sources if I want to make a point clear. It would hardly make sense to quote from the Bhagavadgita in a discussion about Islam, right?
Why does it bug you so much Masri? Because Dalia brings up almost unrefutable points over and over again? Whether or not she IS or IS NOT Muslim is not the point, is it?
All that text about a husband over his wife is a crock of b.s. More legalism and dogma without a shred of spirituality or fact for that matter...doesn't it say in Quran something about all souls being responsible for themselves on the Day of Judgement? No intercession...including the intercession of a husband or man. This is just the Arab patriatrchial societial spin on Islam, nothing more. But loads of men and women buy into it. Sheez, can't you recognize women are living and breathing INDIVIDUALS...that made my stomach turn to see how men are programmed to believe how they are "in charge" of their wifes every move and thought. Thank God I was not born into such a mentality.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Wow the Non-Muslims here seem very angry, I mean VERY angry.
Dalia, Gab, humanist..take a prozac or valium and relax and please stop with the vulgar language go God sakes.
The Muslims here seem to enjoy the book as it was written for us. If you non-Muslims don't like the book it's okay no-one is forcing you to to read or accept it.
We will get the benefits from the book inshaa Allah.
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
... And in Allah is the tawfiq. (success) Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Wow the Non-Muslims here seem very angry, I mean VERY angry.
Dalia, Gab, humanist..take a prozac or valium and relax and please stop with the vulgar language go God sakes.
The Muslims here seem to enjoy the book as it was written for us. If you non-Muslims don't like the book it's okay no-one is forcing you to to read or accept it.
We will get the benefits from the book inshaa Allah.
I agree this thread has been made for those who find it interesting and could benefit them.
Now it turned into attack on Muslims.( again )
It was simply diverted from "The Good Behavior" into "Islam is disrespectful towards women".
I have read all replies and still can't see anything offensive in quotes provided.
It seems to me that people might be unwilling to let Loved One speak without being attacked just because she is a Muslim.
Do you think this would take place if she said the very same thing, but she stated she is Non-Muslim? ( I don't )
I think in that case people would be very nice to her and hear her story with lots of lovely feedback.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Wow the Non-Muslims here seem very angry, I mean VERY angry.
Dalia, Gab, humanist..take a prozac or valium and relax and please stop with the vulgar language go God sakes.
The Muslims here seem to enjoy the book as it was written for us. If you non-Muslims don't like the book it's okay no-one is forcing you to to read or accept it.
We will get the benefits from the book inshaa Allah.
I agree this thread has been made for those who find it interesting and could benefit them.
Now it turned into attack on Muslims.( again )
It was simply diverted from "The Good Behavior" into "Islam is disrespectful towards women".
I have read all replies and still can't see anything offensive in quotes provided.
It seems to me that people might be unwilling to let Loved One speak without being attacked just because she is a Muslim.
Do you think this would take place if she said the very same thing, but she stated she is Non-Muslim? ( I don't )
I think in that case people would be very nice to her and hear her story with lots of lovely feedback.
You know LML there has been so many threads about Egyptian and Foreigner marriages that went busted, let's not even talk about the relationships outside of marriage.
Then lovedone comes and shares some very exciting news about her marriage and good advice as well, and what happens. They start to pounce on her. It is like you said. It seems that many here would rather hear bad news of a marriage breakup verse good positive news for a change.
The proof is in the pudding. So like you said and I fully agree. Let's share news and advice that is beneficial and positive. There are enough alternative source where we can hear negative things. Let's not make ES one of them.
Warmest regards. Salaam, Sakinah wa Rahmatullah for All of our Brothers and Sisters.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
M*A*S*R*I
quote:Yet you are not muslim..so why the trouble of discussing it in first place if you don't believe in Islam?
SANDS
quote:did NOT answer the part about her NOT being a Muslim and discussing issues of Islaam in the first place. Here is the piece of advice that I always give regarding Dalia..don't waste your time in endless and fruitless debates with her. You'll be chasing your tail like a dog i.e. just going around in circles.
LML
quote:I want to know too. Dalia what's the reply on this question?
Here we have 3 self appointed 'Bouncers for Allah' who are sitting in His place in judgement. According to these 3 you cannot discuss Islam unless you are a Muslim. Even if you ARE a Muslim you can only discuss and agree with what they do, or you are declared a non-muslim by the 'Bouncers for Allah'.
Sands, a self appointed 'Bouncer for Allah' and 'Trainee Prophet', has declared above you are not to 'waste your time' discussing Islam with Dalia as you will be 'going round in circles' which goes to prove she has valid points that they cannot answer.
These self appointed 'Bouncers for Allah' seem to disregard the concept of 'Dawa' in Islam, which means discussing Islam WITH non-muslims and helping them to see the 'beauty, logic, fairness and truth' in Islam, in fact these self appointed 'Bouncers for Allah' dont actually SEE any beauty, logic, fairness in Islam, but they insist what they see is the Truth.
If you DO happen to question books on Islam from sources of MEN, you are accused of hating Islam and attacking it and its members:
LML
quote:Now it turned into attack on Muslims.( again )
LML, it turned into an attack on Dalia and Humanist, Humanist IS a Muslim but has been 'downgraded and thrown out' of Islam by the self appointed 'Bouncers of Allah'
LML
quote:It was simply diverted from "The Good Behavior" into "Islam is disrespectful towards women".
Here is where you are wrong. You cannot understand the difference between critisism of A BOOK and critisism of Islam. The ctitisism was for the BOOK and the ideas of its AUTHOR. I have to point out this book was NOT QURAN. Dalia has continually said ISLAM IS NOT DISRESPECTFUL TO WOMAN, and points out this author IS. This author is writing from his own perspective. Dalia ALWAYS uses QURAN in her discussions to try to point out these other books are NOT based on ISLAM.
LML
quote:It seems to me that people might be unwilling to let Loved One speak without being attacked just because she is a Muslim.
This is clearly the lie that will spread the hate. No one has attacked LovedOne here but this incitement to hate is saying they have. Because Dalia has disagreed with some points in the BOOK that LovedOne quoted from, and NOT even any of the actual quotes LovedOne made, the self appointed 'Bouncer for Allah' has turned this into an attack on LovedOne because she is Muslim, which any thinking person with a brain can see is NOT what has happened. Sadly the 'Bouncers for Allah' do not HAVE a brain nor are they allowed to THINK.
SANDS
quote:Then lovedone comes and shares some very exciting news about her marriage and good advice as well, and what happens. They start to pounce on her. It is like you said. It seems that many here would rather hear bad news of a marriage breakup verse good positive news for a change.
Now anyone not reading the full thread might even believe this. No one 'pounced' on LovedOne for sharing her ideas. Dalia gave her 'personal' opinion on a BOOK to which LovedOne replied, not in a very 'Islamic' manner, by twisting what Dalia had actually said and telling her it was 'her problem'.
The lovely thread was already ruined by another self appointed 'Bouncer of Allah', Exiled, with this line:
EXILED
quote:Ladies you need to actually name and call members out if you are serious. The culprits should be called out because this beating around the bush does nothing at all. If you truly identify some members as being detrimental to the general well being of this forum then please publicly state who you deem is the culprit.
This self appointed 'Bouncer of Allah' has also told me to 'leave Islam and Muslims alone' in another thread, declaring himself to be the guard of the 'gate' to God and the one who decides who is or is not Muslim, a job only Allah has.
I will name and call out the 'culprits' in this hate campaign on this board, Exiled.
LovingMyLife Somewhere In the Sands Exiled
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
Wherever you were at for 2 days Ayisha. I would be nice if you went back there. This thread and many other places on the forum was very quiet when you didn't post walhamdulillah.
There is something evil and nasty in your heart and it is expressed in your posts. Be kind and do everyone here a favor, go post on a different form that is condusive to their idealogy inshaa Allah.
I pray that Allah guide you to that which will benefit you in this life, life in the grave and life in the hereafter and that thing is the true understanding of Al-Islaam and love for the Muslimeen.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Sands, this forum was quiet for 2 days as you and your other 'Bouncers' didnt have me to attack, so you attacked Dalia and Humanist until they decided you weren't worth their time also. The other forums were still active with LML on her stuck record of hate though, even without me she is running around like a headless chicken accusing everyone of hate and demanding answers to rediculous questions, even when they are answered she cant see it.
Your prayers have been answered sands, I have the correct understanding of Islam, I pray one day you will too.
I am back by popular demand sands, deal with it 'brother'
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
I have no reason whatsover no to believe Sands as he had conversed with you for a very long time.
I don't need to experience the very same thing he experienced to know how to act with you.
I asked you bunch of questions to determine how much you are involved in hate and you failed again and again to show anything else but what it's in you.
Instead, during such conversation, and I was very nice to you, you turned around and talked bad about me to another member saying that your only goal is - to make fool of me.
With such comment you only made fool of yourself.
I don't respect you. I told you already why.
You sided with Muslim haters. You told everyone who you are. I don't think you are a Muslim.
If you were Muslim you would not even in your dreams think of slandering Islam or any Muslim whatsoever because you would understand our religion.
But you don't. I know I am wasting my time with you, please don't follow me all over egypt search message board.
I am not interested in conversations with you.
Find someone else whom will you attack try some Chatolics, Jews, Orthodox for a change. Let's see if they would embrace your attacks.
Leave Muslims and Islam alone.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
LML are YOU now telling me to leave Islam?
Lets get this right and out in the open shall we?
Are YOU telling ME to leave Islam like Exiled did?
Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
"O ye Ayisha! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Quran. 5:101-102)
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
lol UC, being declared non-muslim by sands, exiled and LML are only strengthening my faith Posted by Undercover (Member # 12979) on :
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Wherever you were at for 2 days Ayisha. I would be nice if you went back there. This thread and many other places on the forum was very quiet when you didn't post walhamdulillah.
There is something evil and nasty in your heart and it is expressed in your posts. Be kind and do everyone here a favor, go post on a different form that is condusive to their idealogy inshaa Allah.
I pray that Allah guide you to that which will benefit you in this life, life in the grave and life in the hereafter and that thing is the true understanding of Al-Islaam and love for the Muslimeen.
Mat 7:1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
____________________
2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud , blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers , incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good ,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded , lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: heady, highminded .
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
__________________
This is for you Ayisha. You have never giving me reason to think badly of Islam as stated by your accusers. I respect your views as a Muslim. No one can tell you who you are.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Posted by gab (Member # 14577) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I have no reason whatsover no to believe Sands as he had conversed with you for a very long time.
I don't need to experience the very same thing he experienced to know how to act with you.
I asked you bunch of questions to determine how much you are involved in hate and you failed again and again to show anything else but what it's in you.
Instead, during such conversation, and I was very nice to you, you turned around and talked bad about me to another member saying that your only goal is - to make fool of me.
With such comment you only made fool of yourself.
I don't respect you. I told you already why.
You sided with Muslim haters. You told everyone who you are. I don't think you are a Muslim.
If you were Muslim you would not even in your dreams think of slandering Islam or any Muslim whatsoever because you would understand our religion.
But you don't. I know I am wasting my time with you, please don't follow me all over egypt search message board.
I am not interested in conversations with you.
Find someone else whom will you attack try some Chatolics, Jews, Orthodox for a change. Let's see if they would embrace your attacks.
Leave Muslims and Islam alone.
hmm why are muslime killing each other every day update yourself honey
do some housework or something you breanless slapper... **** of Posted by gab (Member # 14577) on :
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Wherever you were at for 2 days Ayisha. I would be nice if you went back there. This thread and many other places on the forum was very quiet when you didn't post walhamdulillah.
There is something evil and nasty in your heart and it is expressed in your posts. Be kind and do everyone here a favor, go post on a different form that is condusive to their idealogy inshaa Allah.
I pray that Allah guide you to that which will benefit you in this life, life in the grave and life in the hereafter and that thing is the true understanding of Al-Islaam and love for the Muslimeen.
retarded idiot and a woman hater
come out of the closet faggot ... Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Wherever you were at for 2 days Ayisha. I would be nice if you went back there. This thread and many other places on the forum was very quiet when you didn't post walhamdulillah.
There is something evil and nasty in your heart and it is expressed in your posts. Be kind and do everyone here a favor, go post on a different form that is condusive to their idealogy inshaa Allah.
I pray that Allah guide you to that which will benefit you in this life, life in the grave and life in the hereafter and that thing is the true understanding of Al-Islaam and love for the Muslimeen.
Mat 7:1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
____________________
2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud , blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers , incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good ,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded , lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: heady, highminded .
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
__________________
This is for you Ayisha. You have never giving me reason to think badly of Islam as stated by your accusers. I respect your views as a Muslim. No one can tell you who you are.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Of_gold, thank you. The meaning is the same in Quran too and inshaAllah certian people will see that. Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
This is for you Ayisha. You have never giving me reason to think badly of Islam as stated by your accusers. I respect your views as a Muslim. No one can tell you who you are.
The person that you posted this for loves biblical quotes and it is attested to by her response. Thanks, it only reinforces what has been saying concerning her.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
sands, your posts lately have only reinforced what I, and others, thought and said about you too, but malesh eh?
Have a good day
Happy Birthday to me, Happy Birthday to me Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I:
quote:I had a read in it the other day.
What I found very strange is that the author keeps talking about "manhood". According to him, the husband is responsible for how his wife dresses, her practice of worship, her conduct etc. And if he loses control over the women in his family he supposedly loses this "manhood". I think this "manhood" issue is a tribal thing, I don't see what it has to do with religion ...
Any feminist would say the same thing. I know it's your opinion but projecting your own issues on the 2 books and claiming that both books are degrading for women is clearly wrong.
M*A*S*R*I,
Please don't be discouraged to post in Religion forum again. Especially after creating such a nice username.
I see both you and Loved One won't comment.
Some people here simply don't understand damage they cause to this place by being rude to Muslims like yourself.
This is Egyptsearch forum, you both should be here.
This place and Forum Religion is also about Islam and for Muslims like yourself.
We don't want to lose either of you, so hopefully you will have some new interesting threads and post again very soon.
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
Loved One,
I am really sorry that you thread was ruined.
I can see you won't make any comments or replies in your own thread.
I liked your thread, it was very nice and with good intent, very interesting and much needed.
Unfortunatelly members here did not allow you to lead your own thread and continue with your islamic thought.
As I told to M*A*S*R*I (the new member) despite everything this place is Egyptsearch and Religion forum is about Islam too.
So if anyone should be posting here, it's Muslims like you.
So I hope you come up with some new threads and hopefully this thread was worth at the end if nothing else for the opportunity to bring awareness and make a change.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife:
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
Loved One,
I am really sorry that you thread was ruined.
I can see you won't make any comments or replies in your own thread.
I liked your thread, it was very nice and with good intent, very interesting and much needed.
Unfortunatelly members here did not allow you to lead your own thread and continue with your islamic thought.
As I told to M*A*S*R*I (the new member) despite everything this place is Egyptsearch and Religion forum is about Islam too.
So if anyone should be posting here, it's Muslims like you.
So I hope you come up with some new threads and hopefully this thread was worth at the end if nothing else for the opportunity to bring awareness and make a change.
Excuse me, you really do have a problem dont you? If you look back to page 1 you will see that the thread was doing ok until your cohort Exiled posted, which caused it to be ruined. You are now continuing that same drama of hatred throughout the board, both of you, so stop it and stop making out you are whiter than white, its clear who is carrying on the same crap here, so stop it.
Posted by M*A*S*R*I (Member # 14699) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: So I hope you come up with some new threads and hopefully this thread was worth at the end if nothing else for the opportunity to bring awareness and make a change.
Thank you LML for your kind words. sorry i was busy and i don't spend much time online during weekends. Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
.
Isa 5:20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 ¶ Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Jam 3:13 ¶ Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Isa 5:20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 ¶ Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
And of mankind, there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.
They (think to) to deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!
In their hearts is a disease and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is their because they used to tell lies.
And when it is said to them: "Make not mischiedf on the earth." they say: "We are only peace makers."
Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they percieve not.
And when it is said to them "Believe as the people have believed." they say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Verily, they are the fools but they know not.
And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their shayatin (devils and hypocrites), they say; "Truly, we are with you; verily we were but mocking."
Allah mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doing to wander blindly!
These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided.
Suratul Baqarah verses 8-16
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:And when it is said to them: "Make not mischiedf on the earth." they say: "We are only peace makers."
Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they percieve not.
Mat 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I have lived this life of believing that I was pleasing God when I pleased my husband. It happens in Christianity too. Problem was I could never please my husband so I kept trying harder. Until one day I gave up. Kinda like a dog chasing his own tail. I remember sitting in church listening to the preacher telling us how we needed to serve God and I thought...I can't do it anymore, I'm too weak. I eventually realized that God doesn't want me treated like this that and that I was teaching my children to sacrifice themselves for everyone else.
But you were not being *weak*, in fact your decision to give up was one of strength.
I've heard many stories of women who "gave up" at a certain point, because they realized there was no way ever living up to pleasing their husbands, that it was impossible because the points that they kept fighting about were not really about issues in themselves, but rather a power struggle. There are husbands who constantly "punish" their wives and make them feel miserable by being insulted, reproachful etc.
There are many women in this world who try very hard to please their husbands, yet life seems to be a constant struggle for them since the husbands are never satisfied. It seems to me that men who have grown up within a somehow patriarchalic culture often tend to blackmail their women. Imo men like this are very immature and selfish, they use religion or anything else as a tool to suppress women. If the women don't do as they please they are not "really feminine", "not fulfilling their divinely ordained duty in life", "being too demanding", "indecent", "rebellious" and so on and so forth. They just use religion as an argument to support the desires of their egos.
Womens' souls have been crippled in many societies and for many centuries with arguments like that. It seems the best way to keep a woman in line is to let her know that she is somehow crossing her boundaries, acting against divinely ordained rules, that she is "not normal", "losing her femininity" and -- most of all -- "not good enough".
But what I see in reality is that very often women are the ones working the hardest to make relationships work. They are the ones being patient and dealing with sulky, complaining, lazy, injust, violent partners over and over again, out of love and the sincere desire to make the relationship work and the family happy. It's women who often suffer tremendously for the sake of their children.
We often hear and read from conservatives of all denominations that feminism and freedom of choice for women is the road to doom and moral decline of a society, that women, once given the freedom of choice and economic freedom, will desert their husbands at the slightest whim, because "women are irrational and often overcome by emotions".
But fact is, the majority of women only leave their husbands if life has become completely unbearable for them. They try and try again like a hamster in a wheel to make their relationships and families work before finally giving up. And often they only give up inside, still functioning in the outside world, but dying inside out of physical and mental exhaustion and of a complete drying out of their souls. There are many women in this world -- no matter whether in the "bad West" or in Islamic countries -- who are being solely responsible for their children since the husbands have disappeared and couldn't care less about their duty to care for their wife and offspring. There are women who are the sole financial providers of their families, yet their husbands keep demanding that they run all of the household, serve them and take care of the children, because of his supposed role as *leader of the family*, because he feels taking care of those things would be *beneath* him. There are women who keep up with this, who go to work for eight or nine hours a day, come home and cook dinner, iron clothes, help their kids with homework, clean the house etc., while their husbands are not doing half of it, yet expect to be served!
We keep reading in *Islamic* texts that the husband has to be "the leader of the family", that a woman can't be trusted with that responsibility, that he is the one to make important decisions, "to keep her on the straight path" and so on and so forth. But most of my personal observations contradict this statement -- so do several studies on the issue, such as the experiment with microbankig in Bangladesh by Muhammad Yunus, which I've posted about on here before.
It seems that -- generally speaking -- women tend to act more responsibly when it comes to holding a relationship or a family together. It also seems that women handle finances more carefully and try to make sure there will be as much benefit as possible for everyone involved -- themselves, their family and their community. So I will never believe the strange theory that the man has to be the one making important decisions and taking charge of things because women supposedly are not capable of this and need to be controlled, watched and morally *led*.
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: It seems to me when a person gives an opinion of something they think; like having slaves and raping them is wrong then people think they are speaking against Islam. Or if you voice that you think having sex with a child is wrong, then you are accused of being against Islam. Is this what Islam is? It sure is confusing to me.
Yes, it is confusing, but it's actually quite simple. Do you really believe a merciful, loving and forgiving God would want us to have sex with children, to own slaves and rape them? Can you imagine God actually created one gender superior and wants the other to be suppressed and sacrificing? I don't, and no words from any human being can change that.
quote: I am offended on a regular basis with respect to how women are degraded on ES. It seems that no one notices or cares how women are demeaned on this site. Yet dare not say any thing that may offend "a man".
That's how I feel. I am also regularly offended or feeling deeply disgusted by some of the statements regarding women here, that's why I keep saying what I'm saying. I am used to the insults and the attempts to intimidate me because I dare criticizing the words of men. It doesn't bother or frighten me, but I think it's sad that no honest, intelligent and respectful discussion about this subject seems to be possible on here.
quote: I thought men were suppose to be the stronger ones. Honestly when I look around, what I see mostly are strong women and weak men.
Exactly, that's what I was talking about above. I also find it interesting that in most cases the very same men who claim that they are the superior and more rational gender etc. pp. tend to be very emotional, aggressive and illogical.
quote: PI, I see strength in you. Just wanted to let you know that I see it, for what it's worth.
I agree. Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
Great post Dalia...I enjoyed seeing your passion from a more human, emotional side! I have always APPRECIATED your intellect and strength and to have seen your emotion in the above post further broadened my appreciation for you....Keep fighting the good fight girlfriend!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: I see this as an attack on Loved One because she views her marriage unlike some other women.
It's attack on her because she did not say anything to cause such feedback.
She simply stated she supports good attitude, and wanted to share her feeling about it.
I as a Muslim woman haven never been tretead in the way described, and despite such fact I haven't found what Loved One explained as offensive.
She had never said that she is supportive of mistreatment of women, yet this thread turned again into 'another stupid Muslim woman who is obedient to her husband'.
This is so unfair. We don't know how she is with her husband.
I agree this thread has been made for those who find it interesting and could benefit them.
Now it turned into attack on Muslims.( again )
It was simply diverted from "The Good Behavior" into "Islam is disrespectful towards women".
It seems to me that people might be unwilling to let Loved One speak without being attacked just because she is a Muslim.
Do you think this would take place if she said the very same thing, but she stated she is Non-Muslim? ( I don't )
With all respect, your self-pitying and the drama is totally unjustified and out of place. If you enjoy feeling like a victim, fine. But please stop blaming others for things they haven't said.
I have explained myself as best as I could in this thread, and I'm really surprised at some of the responses here. I think my posts were very clear; if you or others ignore parts of it in favour of feeling insulted or attacked I really can't help it, and I won't go around in circles, trying to explain or justify myself.
I have not said LovedOne is "another stupid Muslim woman who is obedient to her husband" or that she supports mistreatment of women, this is not what I think, and I don't see anyone else saying this.
If I had wanted to make fun of or attack her or anyone else, I would have written a sarcastic post about people who find it spiritually enlightening to read that it's recommendable to wash yourself regularly etc. If I had wanted to be malicious or spiteful, I would have suggested that women who find that sort of literature inspiring might have personal issues with masochism that need sorting out.
I have repeatedly said I find those things I talked about un-Islamic, it can hardly get any clearer. If you want to feel attacked, stereotyped or discriminated, if you want to feel I am attacking Islam and saying it suppresses women, that's your choice, but I think it's obvious to anyone with eyes to read and a brain to think that this is far from what I've been saying.
I would honestly be very interested in your answers (or LO's) to the questions I have asked repeatedly, though. To be honest, your reaction and hers completely puzzle me. I mean, it's blatantly obvious you are avoiding some of my points, but I'm not sure what that means. Do you prefer to look the other way and simply ignore those things I've quoted? Do you agree with them, i.e., do you believe your husband has the right to tell you what to do? Do you believe a man has the right to sleep with his wife, even when she does not want to? Do you believe, your partner has the right to *discipline* and beat you? Why is it that you chose to completely avoid those parts of my posts and my questions and to completely misinterpret others? Do you think you will be a lesser Muslima if you take some parts of what the author says and ignore others? What is it? I am really very puzzled , and I can't even try to imagine what's going on in your minds.
LovedOne quoted the few beautiful parts of the text in question. What does she do with the other parts? Does she ignore them? Agree with them? I'm not being facetious, I would very much like to know. But so far nobody in this or similar discussions has ever given me an answer to this. People either ignore the ugly parts, or they tell me they are correct and women are indeed inferior to men, but why would that be a problem, it's what "Allah intended" ... or they tell me they are not supposed to mean what they mean. Like one of our members who just tried to convince me in another thread that a quote like "men are better than women in and of themselves" does not mean what it very obviously does, that I might have a problem with comprehension of texts if I see it that way etc.
Anyway ... I see a lot of anger here and a lot of attempted attacks on me, and I'm wondering what this is all about.
As I said before, I did not attack anyone personally, neither did I mean to ruin this thread, which, I think, was a lovely idea we all could benefit from if we cared to take some of the advice on here seriously.
We all know this board is a merciless place, and if we post something that really means something to us, we might get attacked or ridiculed for it. Now again, I did not attack LO for what she originally posted, I thought it was very nice, and I posted some verses that, in my understanding, said the same thing.
I did, however, post a negative opinion about the book she took those quotes from. But, as I said before, I explained in detail what I find objectionable and why, and if you're not prepared to respond to criticism and don't have the emotional and intellectual maturity to deal with negative responses in a good way, you better not post here.
We're a diverse group here, there are huge differences in age, cultural upbringing, comprehension of language etc. Often we are having discussions with people whom we would never encounter in real life. So of course we can't all find the same things appealing and inspiring and there are bound to be huge differences of opinion. I'm sure many people on here would find the books on spirituality or philosophy etc. I am currently reading strange or silly or whatever. Likewise, I do not find texts like the one we discussed appealing to me personally at all.
Apart from the slightly patronizing language and the contained misogynism, the author's words just don't touch my heart or appeal to my emotions or my intellect at all. I don't feel I need to read about eating properly, exercising and paying attention to proper personal hygiene ... I've always believed that our bodies are a gift from the creator and we should treat them accordingly.
Also, I don't really find all those description of how to act and deal with others etc. inspiring. I don't see much benefit in being told not to lie, cheat, to be kind and patient with your family, friends, neighbours etc. It's something I try to do anyway although I'm well aware I often fail in this ... as most of us do. But I believe as long as we are being conscious of our thoughts and actions and try to observe, question and improve them, we are on the right way.
I can see why people might find things like that inspiring though, and that's fine! But to me many of those points are oblivious. I believe that any person who is at peace with him- or herself, who keeps trying to become a better person, who believes in justice, love, divine mercy etc. will *automatically* display those attitudes and behaviour described.
And, most importantly, the author's derogatory and disgusting statements about women and relationships in general simply make it impossible for me to take him seriously or ever accept him as a spirtual mentor or someone I could learn anything from.
I believe the person who started this thread has not disappeared because of the supposed merciless attacks of others, because of being belittled or intimidated etc. I would rather assume she is being embarrassed because her own strategy has backfired on her. She has tried to ridicule me by suggesting I might have personal issues and that's why I don't like the book we were talking about here. But now more people have stated that they can't relate to this text and find it offending, so this argument has become kind of obsolete.
Also, instead of taking to her own advice and being patient and kind, she got facetious and tried to attack me, which is a bit hypocritical, given the fact that she was the one who started this thread with the intention to make people become more aware of how they treat others.
Honestly, I can't get my head around this. If I'm really convinced of something I posted, if I am honestly standing behind the author's opinions, I should be able to defend and explain them to others. But getting aggressive and attacking the people who don't agree with it and then crying wolf that I'm being *discriminated* is just bizarre imo.
Posted by LovedOne (Member # 10222) on :
You're a real piece of work Dalia. I am not embarrassed about what I said and there was no strategy. You said you didn't like the book and I said that was your problem. The statement seems simple enough to understand to me. You are not Muslim and don't understand the beauty of Islam and the details that the book was explaining, and until you drop your extreme feminism and open your mind and heart, it will continue to be beyond you. I didn't reply earlier because it's generally a waste of time to reply to both you and Ayisha, you are two of a kind, but I'm tired of your pot shots against me. Grow up already.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Saying that I don't believe a husband has the right to beat, rape and dominate his wife is *extreme feminism*?
Saying that "a woman was barely qualified to wipe the dust from her husband's feet with her face" is a statement that shows *the beauty of Islam*? Can you explain to me where there is beauty and divine mercy in this statement?
quote: Grow up already.
I did. That's exactly why I object to men claiming I should be treated like a retard or a child, as the author of said text does. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: You're a real piece of work Dalia.
The statement seems simple enough to understand to me.
it's generally a waste of time to reply to both you and Ayisha
Life sometimes imposes on a Muslim woman the burden of having to live or mix with women whom she does not like, such as living in the same house with one of her in-laws or other women with whom she has nothing in common and does not get along well. ... How should the Muslim woman who has received a sound Islamic education conduct herself in such a situation? Should she be negative in her dealings, judgements and reactions, or should she be gentle, tactful, fair and wise, even with those whom she does not like?
... the Muslim woman who is truly guided by Islam should be fair, wise, gentle and tactful. She should not expose her true feelings towards those she dislikes, or expose her cold feelings towards them in the way she behaves towards them and reacts to them. She should greet such women warmly, treat them gently and speak softly to them. This is the attitude adopted by the Prophet (PBUH) and his Companions. Abu'l-Darda' (RAA) said:
"We smile at people even if in our hearts we are cursing them."52 `Urwah ibn al-Zubayr reported that `A'ishah told him: "A man sought permission to enter upon the Prophet (PBUH), and he said, `Let him in, what a bad son of his tribe (or bad brother of his tribe) he is!' When the man came in, the Prophet (PBUH) spoke to him kindly and gently. I said: `O Messenger of Allah, you said what you said, then you spoke to him kindly.' He said, `O `A'ishah, the worst of the people in the sight of Allah (SWT) is the one who is shunned by others or whom people treat nicely because they fear his sharp tongue.'"53 Being companionable, friendly and kind towards people are among the attributes of believing men and women. Being humble, speaking gently and avoiding harshness are approaches that make people like one another and draw closer to one another, as enjoined by Islam, which encourages Muslims to adopt these attitudes in their dealings with others.
The true Muslim woman is not swayed by her emotions when it comes to love and hate. She is moderate, objective, fair and realistic in her treatment and opinions of those woman whom she does not like, and allows herself to be governed by her reason, religion, chivalry and good attitude. She does not bear witness except to the truth, and she does not judge except with justice, following the example of the Mothers of the Believers, who were the epitome of fairness, justice and taqwa in their opinions of one another.
quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: You're a real piece of work Dalia. I am not embarrassed about what I said and there was no strategy. You said you didn't like the book and I said that was your problem. The statement seems simple enough to understand to me. You are not Muslim and don't understand the beauty of Islam and the details that the book was explaining, and until you drop your extreme feminism and open your mind and heart, it will continue to be beyond you. I didn't reply earlier because it's generally a waste of time to reply to both you and Ayisha, you are two of a kind, but I'm tired of your pot shots against me. Grow up already.
Mashaa Allah the response to Dalia was nice, short, sweet and simple. Oh and straight to the point.
I basically say what you said all the time but they just don't get it:
quote:The statement seems simple enough to understand to me. You are not Muslim and don't understand the beauty of Islam and the details that the book was explaining, and until you drop your extreme feminism and open your mind and heart, it will continue to be beyond you. I didn't reply earlier because it's generally a waste of time to reply to both you and Ayisha,
Maybe now they will Ya Rabb!
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Dalia*, thank you for your response to my post above. It was well written and I agree.
For the record, I have not seen you take "pot shots" at anyone on this thread. Nor have I seen you say anything against Islam, but then again, I must admit that I don't fully understand Islam. IF degrading women is Islam, then yes I have seen you speak against it.
The only explanation that I can see for them taking offense is a different thought processes. If a persons thought process is concrete then possibly when you disagree with something they believe to be correct then you have offended them.
They obviously feel that what is described in the book about women IS Islam, so in essence we unaware have insulted Islam by saying that we think women should not be treated like that. Clear cut, black and white, no abstract thought.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Excellent post Dalia as always. Such a shame the ones posting against you cant see that, but possible they didnt bother to read it.
LovedOne, you and sands have shown 'how to treat others' in your replies here. Dalia may not be a professed Muslim but I am and its understandable that it must be a real thorn in the side to have someone of intelligence like Dalia who can see how Islam was really intended to be instead of how the man made scholar books portray it.
It is often easier for someone looking from the outside to see how things really are then it is from someone looking from the inside, so to speak. Like saying 'you cant see the wood for the trees'.
Of_gold. This book thats being refered to here is only one mans 'interpretation' of what he thinks Islam is. Dalia has again poked holes in it and refered to Quran. The others here who are defending the book against Dalia have to resort to insults to back themselves up, Dalia never does that. They know she is right if they know anything about Quran, but they would never say that. They will stick together even if they are wrong. Anyone who had an inkling about Islam would see what Dalia posted is correct in reference to Quran, but Islam for the majority is not based on Quran anymore.
What you see here is not Islam.
Posted by Somewhere in the sands (Member # 13869) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
LovedOne, you and sands have shown 'how to treat others' in your replies here.
I see you have a problem with Muslims being straight to the point huh?
quote:Dalia may not be a professed Muslim
Professed Muslim NOT only is she NOT a PROFESSED Muslim, she (Dalia) isn't a Muslim. No need to sugarcoat it. We Muslimeen are NOT going to let a NON-MUSLIM intellegent or not come and tell us what Islaam is or should be. That would just be plain stupid.
quote:but I am
It has already been established that you may Profess to be Muslim..but your beliefs are outside of Islam, therefore putting you Outside of Islam wa Allahu ta'ala Alim.
quote:its understandable that it must be a real thorn in the side to have someone of intelligence like Dalia who can see how Islam was really intended to be
If she was as intellegent as you support her and make her out to be concerning Islaam then logic and reasoning would be that she embraces Islaam, professes Islaam and practice Islaam in her intellegent free-thinking way and Profess to be a Muslim like you and be one of the few the proud the Quraniyoon!
It is obvious by her actions and NOT her intellegent statements that she hasn't accept Islaam and became a Muslim. No matter how wonderful she may see Islaam in your intellegent way. She is still a Kaffir! Now that and a quarter i.e. 25 cents will buy you a cup of coffee.
BTW the saying is: You can't see the forrest for (because of) the trees. Posted by Mad Days (Member # 14718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: It seems to me when a person gives an opinion of something they think; like having slaves and raping them is wrong then people think they are speaking against Islam. Or if you voice that you think having sex with a child is wrong, then you are accused of being against Islam. Is this what Islam is? It sure is confusing to me.
Yes, it is confusing, but it's actually quite simple. Do you really believe a merciful, loving and forgiving God would want us to have sex with children, to own slaves and rape them? Can you imagine God actually created one gender superior and wants the other to be suppressed and sacrificing? I don't, and no words from any human being can change that.
Muhammad, a 7th century man, had a different understanding of God than you have. If you disagree with his understanding of God, maybe Islam is not for you. Simple as that.
Imagine if I converted to Hinduism and tried to convience the Hindus that their beliefs are misunderstood because in your own words "I Can not imagine God being like that". There would be no point in arguing with them, and in trying to reform their beliefs so that they conformed to mine, to MY understanding of God. That would be ridiculous.
God is one, but every religion has a different understanding of God. If you want to discuss God fine, but we are discussing about Allah here, the God of Islam.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
sands, no I dont have any problem with muslims or anyone else being straight to the point, i do have a problem with the continued insults from those claiming they and their 'sects' are being insulted.
Whether Dalia has professed Islam or not is not your or my concern, thats between her and God. She may in His 'eyes' be a much better one than you or I, or the whole of the ummah put together!
It has been established by the council of sands that you claim to be God and have decided I am not muslim. As above, that is between me and God, not you. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you are NOT GOD.
My beliefs may be outside what you and your scholars have claimed to be Islam, but they are not outside what God said is Islam. I care not a jot that the 'majority' follow man made rules, I care only for the rules of God.
Again in your last statement you are relying on YOUR version of Islam that Dalia must accept or she is not muslim, and again thats between her and God.
I bear witness that there is no God but God. Dalia also agrees that statement. Its you and your 'sects' that add anything to that.
BTW it may be 'forest' in USA, but its 'wood' in UK. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mad Days:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: It seems to me when a person gives an opinion of something they think; like having slaves and raping them is wrong then people think they are speaking against Islam. Or if you voice that you think having sex with a child is wrong, then you are accused of being against Islam. Is this what Islam is? It sure is confusing to me.
Yes, it is confusing, but it's actually quite simple. Do you really believe a merciful, loving and forgiving God would want us to have sex with children, to own slaves and rape them? Can you imagine God actually created one gender superior and wants the other to be suppressed and sacrificing? I don't, and no words from any human being can change that.
Muhammad, a 7th century man, had a different understanding of God than you have. If you disagree with his understanding of God, maybe Islam is not for you. Simple as that.
Imagine if I converted to Hinduism and tried to convience the Hindus that their beliefs are misunderstood because in your own words "I Can not imagine God being like that". There would be no point in arguing with them, and in trying to reform their beliefs so that they conformed to mine, to MY understanding of God. That would be ridiculous.
God is one, but every religion has a different understanding of God. If you want to discuss God fine, but we are discussing about Allah here, the God of Islam.
Hi Undercover
There is only one God. Allah is also the God of the Arab Christians, as you know. Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mad Days:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: It seems to me when a person gives an opinion of something they think; like having slaves and raping them is wrong then people think they are speaking against Islam. Or if you voice that you think having sex with a child is wrong, then you are accused of being against Islam. Is this what Islam is? It sure is confusing to me.
Yes, it is confusing, but it's actually quite simple. Do you really believe a merciful, loving and forgiving God would want us to have sex with children, to own slaves and rape them? Can you imagine God actually created one gender superior and wants the other to be suppressed and sacrificing? I don't, and no words from any human being can change that.
Muhammad, a 7th century man, had a different understanding of God than you have. If you disagree with his understanding of God, maybe Islam is not for you. Simple as that.
Imagine if I converted to Hinduism and tried to convience the Hindus that their beliefs are misunderstood because in your own words "I Can not imagine God being like that". There would be no point in arguing with them, and in trying to reform their beliefs so that they conformed to mine, to MY understanding of God. That would be ridiculous.
God is one, but every religion has a different understanding of God. If you want to discuss God fine, but we are discussing about Allah here, the God of Islam.
Are you telling me that: Having slaves raping women killing a man in battle and taking his wife as "war booty" having sex with children beating your wife and, killing those who don't believe the above, describes Islam?
Are you saying that these things describe are how most Muslims understand God?
Posted by Mad Days (Member # 14718) on :
Gold, Islam is not just the belief in one God. It is a way of life. There are rules.
It doesn't matter how Muslims understand God, but how Mohammad (pbuh) understood God.
Representing Islam as a feminist movement is lying. Quran and Hadith say that men are superior to women; How can you preach equality without changing what is in Quran?
If you want to fool yourself go ahead but you won’t be able to fool others. If you are so much attached to Islam, live by it. Don’t try to change it into what pleases you most. If you are unsatisfied with what you see, may be it is time to move on.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Issues of Concern for Muslim Women by Muslim Women's League
Renewed interest in and enthusiasm for Islam as a means of change is emerging in many parts of the world. By implementing Islamic principles, Muslims are hoping to improve their condition on many fronts, be they social, political, economic or others. The Muslim world is comprised of people of a variety of nationalities and ethnicities which, combined with geographical realities, determine priorities of action for improving the lives of women.
Most Muslims are taught that Islam liberated women by giving them rights not previously enjoyed. Some examples include rights of ownership, decision-making in marriage, divorce and so on. Indeed, when reviewing primary Muslim sources of Qur'an and authentic Hadith (words and deeds of Prophet Muhammed), one is impressed by an overall image of men and women as equal partners as those who are expected by God to "enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong" (9:71) in all spheres of life, and to act as His vicegerents in ensuring justice, freedom and equality for all.
The importance of developing a strong family as the major building block of a strong society is clearly expressed in Islamic literature. The family unit is solidified by mutual respect, understanding and compassion that applies within the family and among all members of society in general.
Unfortunately, over time, many of the original principles have been abandoned or modified to suit political agendas, thus presenting Muslims with laws and images that hardly resembled the original Islamic community led by Muhammad. Many of these laws were generated between the 10th and 12th centuries, long after the death of Muhammad, and are particularly reflected in legislation today related to marriage and divorce which often place women at a distinct disadvantage.
Muslims who live as minorities in non-Islamic countries are also affected by the sexist and authoritarian attitudes that pervade many communities and impact behavior in terms of marriage, divorce, abuse, exclusion of women from the mosques and decision-making bodies, double standards applied to male and female children and so on.
Because of a belief in a liberated, equitable and dignified position of women outlined in the Qur'an, many Muslims, men and women alike, are calling for reevaluation of attitudes and practices that, although done in the name of Islam, are actually contrary to the basic messages found in the primary sources. To question and possibly oppose entrenched positions that are based on archaic laws, weak Hadith, or cultural trends, requires courage and conviction on the part of religious leaders. But this is necessary and worth any risks in order to enable women to achieve liberation through Islam as originally intended.
Major problem areas that need to be addressed include the following:
~ Family laws pertaining to marriage and divorce that reinforce the image of relationships based on a hierarchy with the rights of the husband superseding those of the wife and that prevent women from being in control of their lives.
~ Violence against women which occurs in the home, community, and as a consequence of warfare which is claimed by some to be allowed by Islam when it is not.
~ Abuse of certain Islamic practices that affect women negatively, such as polygamy and temporary marriage, when applied out of context and without abiding by Islamic restrictions.
~ Excluding women from religious activities such as attendance in the mosque which has clearly been established as the Muslim woman's right.
~ Failure to promote the importance of a woman's contribution to society beyond child-bearing.
~ Failure to enable women to take advantage of rights of property ownership and inheritance outlined by Islam.
~ Focusing on the behavior of women as a marker for morality in society and subjecting them to harassment, intimidation or discrimination.
~ Lack of awareness of the important role of men in contributing significantly in sharing household responsibilities and child-rearing as exemplified by Prophet Muhammed.
Until recently, because of a pervasive sexist and oppressive presentation of women in Islam, Muslim women often felt the only way to be liberated intellectually, socially, politically and economically was by abandoning Islam. There appears to be a growing movement of Islamist women who are demanding that the rights guaranteed by Islam must be applied in their communities. In addition, women are joining the ranks of Islamic scholars, thus providing alternative points of view to what has heretofore been addressed by men. Reviewing Islamic history from an egalitarian perspective, recalling contributions of Muslim women over the centuries, exploring current practices and laws and criticizing them from an Islamic point of view, examining texts as they pertain to women specifically are a few examples of some areas addressed by women scholars today.
Muslims today are facing great challenges from within and without. Oftentimes, calls for change are seen as tools of an outside power that is seeking to undermine the efforts of Islam and Muslims. Certain geopolitical realities lend credence to this view. However, the current desire for change on the part of Muslim women is perhaps more borne out of the fervent belief in the image of the Muslim woman as communicated by God in the Qur'an of a liberated, vital human being who can work in cooperation with men on many levels to contribute to the betterment of society. They seek to expose this concept which has been buried by the persistence of attitudes that focus on competition and subsequent subjugation of one sex over the other in direct conflict with the spirit of the Qur'anic verse
"And thus does their Lord answer their prayer: I shall not lose sight of the work of any of you who works (in My way) be it man or woman: You are members, one of another." (3:195).
I am not fooling myself, I am not Muslim. I am trying to get a clear picture of what Islam is.
Posted by Tahira (Member # 14729) on :
OFGOLD I truly hope you do not think that is how most Muslims understand God.
Hope this helps you about Ayisha:
Again, the way he married a 9-year-old girl was not out of the norms of both time and place, specially when you know that the girls of this region – desert - till now reach their puberty in an early time - nine and ten years old. So it was not an act of harassment to `A’isha or violation of her innocence, but it was a norm that would put a girl to shame if she waited any longer after this age without getting married. Please notice that her sister Asmaa was married to Az-Zubayr at the age of eleven, and so did most of the girls at that time without even considering the age gap between the bride and groom.
Actually, there was a need for the Prophet to marry a girl at this age, in order to live long after his death to teach people lessons from his private life that only a wife would have witnessed. Thus, his many marriages and his marriage to a young girl were not something weird or to be ashamed of or even apologized for, from the criterion of his time as it may be now.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tahira: OFGOLD I truly hope you do not think that is how most Muslims understand God.
Not the ones that I am friends with Tahira, but apparently it is the consensus of this forum. It is what I have learned about Islam, on here.
I would think that the ones who believe other wise would be more vocal to oppose such views and stand up for their religion for the sake of those who are trying to understand. But time and time again I see only Ayisha and Dalia opposing them and Ayisha is being told she is not Muslim because she doesn't believe these things.
What conclusion would you draw?
Posted by Tahira (Member # 14729) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote:Originally posted by Tahira: OFGOLD I truly hope you do not think that is how most Muslims understand God.
Not the ones that I am friends with Tahira, but apparently it is the consensus of this forum. It is what I have learned about Islam, on here.
I would think that the ones who believe other wise would be more vocal to oppose such views and stand up for there religion for the sake of those who are trying to understand. But time and time again I see only Ayisha and Dalia opposing them and Ayisha is being told she is not Muslim because she doesn't believe these things.
What conclusion would you draw?
I am so sorry I modified my post about the time you responded to this. Actually I prefer not to speak for other people if you don't mind. I cannot understand their thoughts and I choose not to take their opinions as my own unless I know them more personally. I do not know of whom you are speaking.
There are many who question the religion so I'm confused what what you mean. Do you think there should be more on this particular message board questioning Islam or Christianity or any other relgiion or just Islam in particular ?
I see aboveyou wanted to learn more about Islam and I congratulate you for being interested enough to ask questions and that is always welcomed. Most here are more than happy to help you.
Lastly, if a person says la ilaha illa allah they are Muslims. They might not be a good Muslim but nobody is exactly in the perfect way. If someone else thinks the person is not a Muslim because they ask questions then I think the person making the judgment should remember :
Leave that which does not concern you
The scholars explain that only things of true worldly or next benefit should concern one. Everything else is, in reality, a waste of time and should, therefore be left, even when not in itself legally disliked or impermissible.
As for the merely permissible, it is the way of those seeking the path of the next life to have high intentions in such matters, with make them rewarded acts.
We have been instructed by the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) that, “From the excellence of a man’s islam is to leave that which does not concern him.” [A sound (hasan) hadith, transmitted by Tirmidhi and others]
Some early Muslims said, “Whoever busies themselves with that which does not concern them misses out on much of that which does concern them.”
Mulla Ali al-Qari (Allah have mercy on him) mentioned in his expansive commentary on Mishkat al-Masabih:
“The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “From the excellence of a man’s Islam is leaving that which does not concern him.”
“That is, to leave that which is not important or befitting of him, whether in speech, actions, or thought. Thus, ‘the excellence of a man’s Islam’ is its perfection, such that one remains steadfast in the submission to the commands and prohibitions of Allah, and surrenders to His rulings in accordance to His destiny and decree (qada wa qadr). This is the sign of the heart having been expanded by the light of its Lord, and the descent of quietude (sakina) into the heart. The reality of ‘that which does not concern him’ is that which is not needed for a worldly or next-worldly necessity, and dos not aide in attaining his Lord’s good pleasure, such that it is possible to life without it… This includes excess acts and unnecessary speech… This hadith may well be taken from Allah Most High’s saying, “And who shun all vain things.” (Qur’an, 23: 3 – changed from Pickthall’s ‘vain conversation’, for lagw is, as Baydawi explains: ‘that which does not concern them of speech and actions’)…
“And it has been related in a Prophetic hadith that, “The people of the Garden will not remorse except for moments that passed them by without remembering Allah.” (Tabarani from our master Mu`adh (may Allah be pleased with him)).
“So glad tidings to one who takes himself to account (hasaba nafsahu) before he it taken to account. Allah Most High has said, “O ye who believe! Observe your duty to Allah. And let every soul look to that which it sendeth on before for the morrow. And observe your duty to Allah! Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do. And be not ye as those who forgot Allah, therefore He caused them to forget their souls. Such are the evil-doers.” (Qur’an, 59: 18)
“al-Awza`i said, ‘`Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz wrote to us, ‘Whoever is frequent in remembering death is content with but a little of this world. And whoever counts his speech from his actions speaks little except in that which benefits him.’’ (Mirqat al-Mafatih, 8: 585 #4840, excerpt translated by Faraz Rabbani)
I hope you have a nice day. Posted by Mad Days (Member # 14718) on :
Muhammad himself used to think that women are deficient in intelligence and they constitute the majority of the inhabitants of the hell. He thought that women will be punished by Allah fo ever because they are not obedient to their husbands who provides for them. He even instructed his followers to scourge their wives if they are disobedient. Of course because according to this holy messenger women are deficient in intelligence their testimony in the court is worth half of that of a man and their inheritance is also half of them. Muslim men have been brought up with this kind of indoctrination for 1400 years and the change cannot come overnight. But you should not judge all men with an Arabic name the same way. Middle Eastern men can be very affectionate and loving if they do not follow the teachings of Quran literally. If you marry a man who is very religious you can be sure that you will have a very unhappy life. This is generally true for Muslim men irrespective of their nationality but Saudis are the worst.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: For the record, I have not seen you take "pot shots" at anyone on this thread.
Two words: pot kettle
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Let's focus on the topic of this thread.
This thread is called "the Good Behavior" and it turned into as I said "Islam is disrespectful to women"
This is because of agendas of some "non-Muslims" who are attacking Muslims who don't fit their "idea" of what Muslims should think or be.
Muslims find offensive that non-Muslims preach them what is ok and what is not ok.
It is very clear that this thread is about bashing Muslims and Islam, and clearly you all who are replying as of now are engaging into a conversation with non-Muslims who already have firm belief about YOU and Islam.
So the best way to handle such situations ( at this point ) is - to ignore their posts.
Ignore..
Ignore... Ignore...
Let them talk to themselves and we could exchange a few great islamic thoughts on our own. Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
Originally posted by LovedOne:
I wanted to post some things from a book that I'm currently reading. Seems like we could all benefit.
I only listed a few things, but I can certainly post more for those who are interested.
quote: The prophet Mohammed, salallahu alayhi wassalam repeatedly told his sahabah of the effect a good attitude would have in forming an Islamic personality and in raising a person's status in the sight of Allah... The prophet, salallahu alayhi wassalam told them, "Among the best of you are those who have the best attitude towards others"
quote: "The most beloved to me and the closest to me on the Day of Resurrection will be those of you who have the best attitudes. And the most hateful to me and the furthest from me on the Day of Resurrection will be the prattlers and boasters and al-mutafayhiqoon." The sahabah said, "O Messenger of Allah, we understand who the prattlers and boasters are, but who are al-mutafayhiqoon?" He said, "The proud and arrogant."
*Tirmidhi, 3/249, in Abwaab al-Birr, hadith no 70.
quote: "Nothing will weigh more heavily in the balance of the believing servant on the Day of Resurrection than a good attitude towards others. Verily Allah hates those who utter vile words and obscene speech."
*Tirmidhi 3/244, in Abwaab al-Birr, baab husn al-khulq.
quote: "No greater deed will be placed in the balance than a good attitude towards others. A good attitude towards others will bring a person up to the level of fasting and prayer."
*Tirmidhi, 3/245, Abwaab al-Birr was-Silah, 61.
quote: "O' Abu Dharr, shall I not tell you of two qualities which are easy to attain but which will weigh more heavily in the balance?" He said, "Of course, O' Messenger of Allah." He said, "You should have a good attitude towards others and remain silent for lengthy periods. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, nothing that people have ever attained is better than these two."
*Abu Ya'la and Tabaraani: Al-Awsat; the men of Abu Ya'la are thiqaat. See majma' az-Zawaa 'id, 8/22 [/quote]
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Let's focus on the topic of this thread.
This thread is called "the Good Behavior" and it turned into as I said "Islam is disrespectful to women"
This is because of agendas of some "non-Muslims" who are attacking Muslims who don't fit their "idea" of what Muslims should think or be.
Muslims find offensive that non-Muslims preach them what is ok and what is not ok.
It is very clear that this thread is about bashing Muslims and Islam, and clearly you all who are replying as of now are engaging into a conversation with non-Muslims who already have firm belief about YOU and Islam.
So the best way to handle such situations ( at this point ) is - to ignore their posts.
Ignore..
Ignore... Ignore...
Let them talk to themselves and we could exchange a few great islamic thoughts on our own.
LML stop trying to cause trouble again. If people wanted to go back to replying to the original topic they are quite capable of doing so. This has not changed into an Islam is disrespectful to women thread, unless you class this writer as 'Islam'. This BOOK is disrespectful to women and Dalia and others are pointing out that ISLAM IS NOT, if only you could see that instead of accepting what these books tell you when Quran tells you otherwise.
Deny it if you can
This is not an attack, it is a discussion with people who disagree on some points.
grow up and stop playing the victim
Posted by lovingmylife (Member # 13695) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Originally posted by LovedOne: I only listed a few things, but I can certainly post more for those who are interested.
Interested... post more. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Part Two of Muslims and Sex: Time for the Sisters To Get Mad
In part one I wrote about what a woman needs and the general thought in Muslim lands that a marriage does not need romance, but just a general understanding amongst Muslims that the man will provide a, b and c and the woman will provide x, y and z. They act within a framework of concern for the expansion of his bloodline or keeping ties or marriages based on backroom deals from brothers pawning off their daughters or something like that with no romantic notion at all.
It it totally a contract between two parties and if the business deal does not work out, then you terminate the contract ( i.e., divorce which will free up the brother to go and find another wife and could leave the sister to depression, a life full of misery because no one will want her, even her own family, of if we are in America maybe she will pursue a career as a “halal baby mamma” )
As one brother told me: “I just want a woman that can provide me with some children and food. I don’t need to talk to them” and I know of several brothers married to Moroccans who do not speak Arabic and the sisters do not speak English.
I know many disagree, but I feel that this is NOT a good way to look at marriage at all - at least not for one who grew up in the West with a different notion of marriage. Here in the West, we have a tradition of marriage where - ideally speaking - the spouse is supposed to be one’s best friend. That person that understands you. That person that understands that inside joke. That person that has your back when no one else does. That person that really loves you through thick and thin.
Let’s say that we have a man that understands the three things that a woman wants in a relationship and he is providing these things. How does the woman reciprocate? How does she know what he needs? Men have emotions too, and needs a woman that he can connect with on an intellectual level and appreciate what he is bringing to the table. On a certain level a man wants to know that all of his efforts to keep her happy are appreciated. She doesn’t necessarily have to explicitly tell him that, but she needs to show it to him.
When times get tough, she does not nag and complain about how “sorry” he is because she KNOWS that he is a good man that has provided in good times and that he cares about his family. Instead of endlessly cursing him and shouting at him, she comforts him and tries to be of assistance to him in every way instead of looking at these things as “beyond her job description”. A REAL man does not like a “fair weather wife”. A wife that is content when times are good and endlessly nags and complains when times are not so good.
There is a saying that “a man’s home is his castle”. The meaning of this is that a man wants his home to be a place of relaxation, comfort and refuge from the turmoil outside that he just came from. He wants to come home to laughing, a good meal, some romance and a good conversation. He doesn’t want a mindless drone in the home with no feedback on any interesting subject. (At least not to any man with an 8th grade education)
Just as he is willing to go out of his way for the woman, she should be willing to go out of her way for him. That can be a problem when you simply look at marriage as a carnal desire or necessary ritual in practicing your religion and to beget a few children or as a means to come to America or improving your financial condition. The marriage has to be a friendship. “You and me against the world!” That is the way we were raised to look at marriage and when we try to deny it and do something different, it does not work and the American-Muslim community is full of examples of this.
A friend of mine told me this story that illustrates my point:
A convert married to a woman from overseas came home from work one night (he worked late nights). His wife came out of the bedroom and said “Your cousin called and said that your mother died” and then she turned around and went back to sleep leaving him to cry on the couch. Anything beyond that was just beyond her “job description”. That was “his thing”.
In another incident - again a convert male married to a female from a Muslim country - his daughter from a previous marriage needed to stay with them, and his wife refused. She was under no obligation to take care of his previous daughter and felt like a fool caring for the daughter of another woman. Now, with all due respect, if that would have been me, and my daughter was in trouble and needed a place to stay and my wife caused a problem I would simply have turned to my wife and told her to go the F*** back to where she came from if she cannot accept my seed.
For us, this is a loveless sham. A man from overseas may see this as stupidity for even trying to go there in the first place with your wife who after all is a woman and what is a woman good for anyway…or at least that is how they think.
Understanding is very important and what sets a good man or woman apart. However, for women it can’t stop there. I know that many women complain that the man is “shallow”, but the women who understand the following are successful: A romantic relationship consists of emotional and sexual desire for the other person. Too many women feel like they can let themselves “go” once they get married and that the man should just “provide” because he is the husband or because the emotional connection is made that there is no more need for a physical connection.
In the strictest and most literal since, this is true. However, PART of keeping an emotional connection with a man is by looking good. She should work out, eat healthy food and try to stay in shape. And the man should facilitate these things by encouraging her (as opposed to putting her down) AND try to look good himself.
I want to be clear that I am NOT talking about a man that would nag his wife about her weight every time she puts on a few pounds. I am speaking of the problem that I have heard brother complain about: their wives becoming “content” and letting themselves “go”. The woman no longer sees a need to keep herself looking good. This thought process comes when a woman has a ritualistic thinking of marriage
I feel that a good woman will have pride (the good kind) in herself and the way she looks and will not let herself “go” whether she is married or not. She will not let her feet get hard and crusty. Her hair will not be a mess. She will take care of her face and keep her hair done in a nice manner.
Romance is reciprocal and abstract. Understanding is abstract. This is why it is so hard to conceptualize in a marriage for so many people from Muslim countries. It is the missing element in convert marriages. (Immigrant marriages probably don’t need it because they don’t have this tradition)
So a marriage breaks down when you have each party demanding their ‘rights’. The man coming home jumping up and down screaming about his food and sex and the woman jumping up and down screaming that the rent is late or that she needs some new shoes. Because ‘understanding’ is not literally and explicitly defined and spelled out in the texts, the thought is that it is not needed. Therefore, you have men resorting to ‘marital rape’ and women demanding a man spend his last $75 on her new jilbab because it is their right. Neither party cares for the other beyond being a means to practicing the ritual.
Many men from Muslim lands look at ‘understanding’ and ‘romance’ as code words for ‘disobedience’. This is not the case. There can be love, romance and understanding in a marriage in our context and within Islam. We don’t have to have a marriage just like they have in Muslim lands…
Furthermore, and I will say this in closing but it needs to be said; a man must sexually please his wife and a woman must do the same. He should take his time and do everything right and she should reciprocate and change things up a little bit and have a few surprises for him once in a while. I have known brothers who married sisters from overseas who they told me had virtually no sexual-desire and who had no imagination when it came to sex. One sister wanted to divorce a brother because he liked to suck on her nipples and she thought that was a perversion. Now, if the brother cant even do that what can he do?
Sisters from overseas need to understand that this is not the middle-east where a brother can be wowed by the mere fact that he has a woman to have sex with. She needs to perform in bed, she needs to “put it on him” if she wants to keep the interest of the man and realize the sad fact that she is not the only game in town and brothers need to be thinking about this same issue.
I will not turn this into a piece about sex but obviously that is a big part of this equation and I have got countless emails from brothers and sisters, not to mention those I know, who tell me that they have no sexual compatibility in their marriages and that this issue is tearing the marriage apart and many of these are cross-cultural marriages. So, I ask, why don’t we talk about these things from the minbar or in classes?
quote:Originally posted by Tahira: OFGOLD I truly hope you do not think that is how most Muslims understand God.
Hope this helps you about Ayisha:
Again, the way he married a 9-year-old girl was not out of the norms of both time and place, specially when you know that the girls of this region – desert - till now reach their puberty in an early time - nine and ten years old. So it was not an act of harassment to `A’isha or violation of her innocence, but it was a norm that would put a girl to shame if she waited any longer after this age without getting married. Please notice that her sister Asmaa was married to Az-Zubayr at the age of eleven, and so did most of the girls at that time without even considering the age gap between the bride and groom.
Actually, there was a need for the Prophet to marry a girl at this age, in order to live long after his death to teach people lessons from his private life that only a wife would have witnessed. Thus, his many marriages and his marriage to a young girl were not something weird or to be ashamed of or even apologized for, from the criterion of his time as it may be now.
You know Tahira,It was the norm at the time to worship idols too. Yet my understanding is that Mohammad spoke against it. So saying it was the norm is not a good justification when you also say that this man was an example to all as the perfect man. Just because something is the norm in society does not make it right. Men are also using Mohammads actions as justification to marry young girls today. Do you think it is right today?
It was once the norm in American to take Indian children away from the parents and raise them in a white school. It was wrong. What about FGM? Is it the norm in Egypt? Is it right?
I have read that Ayisha was 6 when he married her and 18 when he died. Are you telling me that a 6 year old is equipped to keep record of someones life?
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Good Post Dalia. I totally agree with your representation of a good marriage.
Is your description of Muslims marriages really how most of them are? There are problems in the West too. Woman will marry for money or prestige and men will marry to have a trophy wife. Or, I have seen people get into a convenient relationship for sex and end up marring out of obligation. I have a friend right now in a relationship that he is not in love to the girl but feels like he has to marry her so as not to hurt her.
Sorry but I didn't read it until after I posted the above post.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
but we know marriage is a two way thing and if im happy then hes happy ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)