“The Stoning of Soraya M.” explores some of the most contentious beliefs of fundamentalist Muslims.
Like “The Passion of the Christ,” McEveety’s new movie is not for the faint of heart. “The Stoning of Soraya M.” is adapted from the 1994 nonfiction of the same name by the French-Iranian journalist Freidoune Sahebjam, who traveled to a small Iranian village in the mid-1980s and came across the story of an innocent woman stoned to death over concocted charges of infidelity.
The film, which is selling to foreign distributors at the Cannes market and will be released domestically on June 26, is framed by the arrival of the journalist (played by “The Passion of the Christ’s” Jim Caviezel) into the hillside town of Kupayeh. The Shah of Iran has been overthrown as part of the Islamic Revolution, and there’s a resurgence of fundamentalist religious belief, which has reached the men of Kupayeh.
“What happened here yesterday was wrong,” a woman named Zahra (”House of Sand and Fog’s” Shohreh Aghdashloo) tells the journalist, before she relates the tragic events of what has happened to her niece, Soraya (Mozhan Marnò). Soraya’s husband was tired of his marriage and wanted a younger spouse; rather than pursue a divorce, he concocted a scheme to get rid of her.
The fabricated charge was adultery, which under the town leaders’ judgment was a crime not only against her husband but also Islam. The penalty was death by public stoning, and nothing Zahra or Soraya could do or say would stop it. “It is God’s law,” one person says, while the local mullah says, “With each stone you throw, your honor will return.”
Director and co-writer Cyrus Nowrasteh spares little in depicting the execution, in which Soraya is buried to her chest with her arms bound, and pelted with heavy rocks from close range until she bleeds to death.
“We had to keep toning it down so that people could bear it,” says McEveety. “It was far worse originally. But there were people who wanted us to tone it down even more than we did.”
Yet McEveety felt it was critical to depict Soraya’s killing graphically so that audiences would leave the theater outraged. “You can’t tone it down too much, or you do an injustice to the crime,” he says. But he doesn’t want people to be angry at the Islamic faith; rather, he wants to stop stoning around the world, even as it is . What’s more, McEveety wants people who see the film to cease being passive witnesses to injustice in any form.
“Another thing is that we’re all guilty — we don’t stand up when we should,” McEveety says. “I hope you will explore your own soul when you watch this film. Can you say that about many other movies?”
That’s not the only question the film might raise.
In its depiction of deeply religious yet merciless Muslims, “The Stoning of Soraya M.” risks creating a parallel argument about how Jews were shown in “The Passion of the Christ,” which any number of critics considered anti-Semitic. When the film is shown at the Los Angeles Film Festival on June 20, it will be accompanied by a panel discussion about stoning and religious fundamentalism. And Mpower says it has been showing the film to leaders in the Islamic faith.
“It’s more about the abuse of a religion than the religion itself,” says McEveety, adding that much of the filmmaking team, cast and crew were Iranian Muslims. “It’s their movie. I empowered them to tell their story.
“For me, it’s about victims and the abuse of women, which doesn’t only happen in Iran, but in our own backyards,” he says. “There are so many lessons in this film that don’t pertain to Iran or to Muslims. I think the movie is loaded with moral values. This has nothing to do with politics. This exists. People are stoned to death.”
In test screenings, the movie has been received best by Muslim women, McEveety says. “There’s no controversy because everybody agrees this is barbarous.”
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
From the trailer of the film, that's obviously a negative form of the tribal beliefs of Muslim societies adopted from Judaism and Christianity(Mary Magdalene) and made to picture the narrow minded villiage people of Iran or Afghanistan or whatever but not Arabia, since Arabs have good relations with the west, and obviously the producers don't want trouble with the Sheikhs of Saudi Arabia. The movie is another fiasco showing the sinners of Islam in action. I find the idea very childish and futile, and the old hag deserves to be stoned, she's old enough to not have done a silly mistake as such. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
I am not going to watch this movie as I know it would give me nightmares for weeks.
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The movie is another fiasco showing the sinners of Islam in action.
Dzosser, do you believe stoning people is a sin? Or making a movie about it? Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
The whole issue is ridiculous, including the movie, its like doing a movie about the Spanish or Roman inquisition. I haven't seen one prostitute nowadays taken into a football stadium and stoned till death,that's in Egypt at least, but I know that in conservative socities, both Islamic and Coptic, specially in rural ones, the girl is wasted by her own family..like in the well known film of El Bostagi (The Postman) after the novel by Tawfik El Hakim.
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
The difference is that stoning still happens today.
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The whole issue is ridiculous, including the movie, its like doing a movie about the Spanish or Roman inquisition. I haven't seen one prostitute nowadays taken into a football stadium and stoned till death,that's in Egypt at least
Dzosser, the Spanish inquisition is a thing of the past, while people are still being stoned to death in this day and age. It happens in several countries and human rights organizations have been trying to put a stop to the practice for a long time.
Also, even nowadays there are scholars who claim that stoning for adultery is obligatory. And it's not only Salafis or other extremists who do so. If you take a look at the popular website IslamOnline, run by Qaradawi who is considered a "moderate" by some people, you will find fatawa claiming that stoning adulterers is an obligation and not adhering to this supposed rule means you are not adhering to Islamic law.
Didn't you know that?
Currently, six out of fifty-two Muslim-majority countries in the world use stoning as a legally-sanctioned form of punishment: Afghanistan, Iran, Nigeria (about one-third among 36 states), Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. Two Muslim-majority countries, Iraq and Pakistan have reported incidents of stonings outside of the boundaries of law.
Dear questioner! Thanks a lot for your confidence in us and your eagerness to understand the true teachings of Islam and find guidance. May Allah help us fulfill His Commands!
First of all, a correction should be made to the following phrase in your question: “the punishment specified for the person who commits adultery is 80 lashes”. It’s to be noted that as regard flogging - as a punishment specified for an unmarried person guilty of fornication – it’s 100 and not 80 lashes. In the very beginning of Surat An-Nur, it is stated that 100 lashes is the punishment specified for unmarried adulterer and adulteress, Allah says: (The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.) (An-Nur 24: 2).
Coming to the issue of stoning to death as a punishment for married adulterer and adulteress, the statement that there is no verse stipulating that punishment is not correct. It is to be made crystal clear that the punishment is explicitly sanctioned by both the Qur’an and the Prophetic Tradition. Before explaining this further, it’s to be stressed that such punishment should not be a cause of wonder, especially when we know that it had been there in the Divine Scriptures revealed before the Glorious Qur’an. There is a reference to this punishment in the Bible, for instance. It reads: "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (Deuteronomy 22: 22) and also in Leviticus, we find the following verse: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20: 10).
All this makes it clear that it was neither Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) nor the glorious Qur’an, revealed to him, brought the capital punishment (as a punishment for adultery) out of the blue. Being the Seal Prophet, it was his mission to perfect the Divine Message of the Supreme Creator!
The second point that should be borne in mind on this issue is that, as previously refuted, the statement that the Qur’an is silent on this punishment is not genuine. Actually, according to renowned Muslim jurists, there was a verse (Ayah) in the Qur’an that talked about this matter. Though the verse was abrogated, but the abrogation here is in wording; the ruling is still kept in force.
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its teachings and rulings were set gradually. In addition, when abrogating the words of a verse but not its ruling, this serves as a reminder that not all the Divine messages are to be through one channel, i.e. a direct revelation. Rather, part of these messages is to be clarified through the practice and tradition of the Prophet sent to deliver the message.
So the point here is: the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is itself a part of revelation. Almighty Allah explains this saying: (And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.) (Al-Hashr 59: 7) Also Allah says: (…then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them) (An-Nur 24: 63).
According to eminent Qur’an exegetes, this verse serves as a strong warning against deviating from the Tradition of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Imam Ibn Kathir says: “The words ‘the messenger’s order’ refer to his Path, teachings, laws and tradition. Thus, all words and deeds should be weighed according to the words and deeds of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the sense that whatever correspond with his words and deeds are accepted and whatever contradicts that should be rejected.”
The abrogated verse stated that “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death.”
This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death. But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime. It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book.
So we are to bear in mind that the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is a part of the Divine Revelation, indicating that many things were revealed to the Prophet either through inspiration or instruction. Allah tells us in the Qur'an that the Prophet does not speak out of his own fancy. It is all an inspiration sent down to him. (An-Najm 53: 3-4) Therefore, what the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, teaches us is part of our religion. It is not something that he has determined by himself. It is certainly revealed to him.
In the Kuwaiti Encyclopedia of Islamic Jurisprudence, we read the following:
Ibn Qudamah wrote: “Muslim jurists are unanimous on the fact stoning to death is a specified punishment for married adulterer and adulteress. The punishment is recorded in number of traditions and the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stands as an authentic source supporting it. This is the view held by all Companions, Successors and other Muslim scholars with the exception of Kharijites.”
Al-Bahuty said: “The authentic practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) supports stoning to death as a punishment specified for adultery. In addition, the verse commanding this punishment was revealed in the Qur’an. Later, it was verbally abrogated but its ruling is still binding. `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “Almighty Allah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) with the truth and revealed unto Him the Qur’an. Among the revelation (brought by him) was the verse stipulating that married adulterer and adulteress should be stoned to death. We read, comprehended and understood it. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) acted in accordance with that and so did all of us. I fear, by the passage of time, that some people will say: ‘We do not find this verse in the Qur’an’, and thus they go astray abandoning an obligation given to them by Allah. Stoning to death is a Divine obligation and punishment specified for any married adulterer or adulteress once there is four witnesses or the confession of the accused.”
In another narration, `Umar added: “By the One in Whose hands is my soul, had it not been that people would say: ‘`Umar added to the Book of Allah, I would have reinserted it. It (the verse) read: “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death. This is a punishment from Allah. Allah is Almighty and Wise.”
Finally, we would like to note that there are many incidents in the Sunnah and the life of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which the Prophet stoned the married adulterer and adulteress to death. This happened in the case of Ma`iz and the Ghamidi woman. All this makes it clear that the punishment is proven and authentic and is not debatable.
´UK: “Muslim Law Councillor” sees “nothing wrong with stoning a women to death”…
February 27, 2009
“If an unmarried woman has an affair she is lashed 100 times. If a married woman has an affair she is stoned to death. What is wrong in it?”
Politicians in Brent are calling for the resignation of a councillor after he advocated the introduction of Sharia law for British Muslims on a website, including the death penalty for women who commit adultery.
The remarks were a response to The Archbishop of Canterbury’s comments made earlier this month in which he said the adoption of Sharia law in the UK seemed unavoidable.
“Yes of course I believe in Sharia, it is our way of life. I don’t see any harm in Muslims believing what is in the Koran.” But politicians from different parties have been outraged by the remarks and believe he should step down from his post. Councillor Ann John, leader of the Labour group, said: “I was pretty shocked and I don’t think he is fit to hold office. He should resign. He should be challenging his religion. It is disgusting. “To think that whipping and stoning women to death is okay is appaling. We live in a liberal and democratic society but we still have a long way to go. Saying that this is exceptable whether here or anywhere else is not right.” Mr Malik was expelled from the Brent Conservative group in May last year for voting against Tory policy. Councillor Bob Blackman, leader of Conservative group, said: “We live in the UK and our system of law works well for us. We can tolerate people having different views but such extremism renders him unfit to be a politician. These comments confirm the wisdom of the group to expell him and if the group had not already told him to leave then it would do now.”... web page Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
Some Muslim clerics such as Ayatollah Hussein Mousavi Tabrizi have spoken out against the practice and argued that stoning should be stopped as a response to the demands of modern age. Others decry that any punishment, including stoning, that defames, embarrasses or depicts a bad picture of Islam is harmful to the religion and should be discontinued.
Stoning is a grave and serious violation of International Human Rights Law.
Stoning breeches the International Convention of Civil and Political Rights (1966), to which Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, the Sudan are party signatories.
Article 6 of the ICCPR states that “in countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes”, of which adultery is not one.
Article 7 of the ICCPR states that "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".
This last injunction is the content of a whole Convention: the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1987), which is widely considered to have reached the level of customary law due to its strong international acceptance by more than fifty nations, including many Muslim nations.
# Shouldn’t we just accept stoning as part of someone’s culture and their right to freedom of belief?
There is no excuse for the killing of women in the name of any ‘religion’, ‘culture’ or ‘tradition’.
‘Religion’ and ‘culture’ cannot and must not be invoked as excuse for the killing of women, because religion and the laws which derive from it are always subjective interpretations. Culture is not static, but constantly re-created and re-defined by the various interests of groups in positions of power in a society at any given time. There is no excuse for the killing of women. Murder is a brutal violation of the most basic human right – the right to life – and any practice which harms women or impinges upon their agency and autonomy contradicts fundamental rights, such as the right to security; the right to freedom from violence; from inhuman, degrading treatment and punishment; from terror; the right to choose a marriage partner; and the right to not face discrimination under the law. As long as impunity exists, the misappropriation of culture and religion will continue to threaten women’s safety.
No ‘culture’ has the right to kill and harm women based on their perceptions of morality or honour. The freedom of belief does not mean freedom to kill. Stoning is a brutal example of how culture and religion are being misused to perpetuate violence against women.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
I think you guys are making a big issue out of nothing, since everybody knows that the trick is to never be caught in the act, simple and straight forward, Islam has very strict conditions to condemn the act, it needs 4 witnesses to prove the act being genuinely true. I think fornication and adultery are both taboos in other cultures and religions, depending on location and mentality even in places like Sardegna, or Sicily or even in those nomadic Ex-Soviet states ending in -ISTAN, like Uzbek, Kazakh and so on..who'd like to see his spouse in bed with another person ? We cannot just leave things like this, but rarely do they get caught, and sometimes retaliation could be in cutting off the guy's prick, like in the famous case we all know. I'd rather we protest the death penalty by lethal injection, or even worse the electric chair. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
I think the problem with this is that vary rarely do any of them produce 4 witnesses to the act, THATS the problem and thats what clear in Quran. When these barbaric countries agree to this its all supposedly 'from' the religion but stoning is not in Quran and the 4 witnesses are 'waved' also, therefore making it a 'cultural' practice rather then an Islamic one.
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
"Article 6 of the ICCPR states that “in countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes”, of which adultery is not one."
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Yes we know that, but the penalty itself has been stopped in many countries, while some states insist on this horrible technique, what's wrong with the good 'ol rope ?
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: I think you guys are making a big issue out of nothing, since everybody knows that the trick is to never be caught in the act, simple and straight forward, Islam has very strict conditions to condemn the act, it needs 4 witnesses to prove the act being genuinely true.
So you think stoning is Islamic and all the people who get stoned have simply been stupid because they got themselves caught in the act, so to speak?
Do you believe that killing people for having sex is justified?
Are you saying those countries who still stone people to death are acting in accordance with Islamic law? Why, then, are there many cases, like the one of Amina Lawal, where the woman is the one getting the death sentence while the man does not get the same punishment?
Really, Dzosser, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I am shocked by your apologetic attitude, your extremely cynical remarks and the fact that you seem to be suggesting there is nothing wrong with stoning at all. Also, you seem to be believing that the countries who are still stoning people to death are sticking to the four witness rule and that people who get stoned somehow deserve it.
And, yes, I am opposed to ALL sorts of capital punishment. But at least people who are put on the elecric chair or get a lethal injection die quickly and painlessly and without a drooling and screaming mob watching.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Dzosser
Not surprised a militant Muslim Like you is defending the Killing of Women in this way. It's just too bad that people seem to think they are following the rules of there religion when it comes to stoning people.
Thats just shameful. Wakeup Dzosser dying like that is inhumane. Getting Hanged is also wrong.
Peace
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
How is “adultery” proven, before a stoning sentence is passed in the courtroom?
In states where stoning is codified in law (Iran and the Sudan,) adultery must be proven in court. According to many interpretations of Islamic Law (including the Iranian Penal Code), proving adultery is very difficult, and a guilty sentence is nearly impossible to obtain through hard evidence. Adultery punishable by stoning must be proven by the eye-witness testimony of either four just men (or three just men and two just women) or through four separate confessions by the defendant before a judge. But in fact, most stoning sentences are issued not on the basis of testimony or confession but on the judge’s “knowledge” or “intuition.” Article 105 of the Islamic Penal code of Iran allows a single judge to rule according to his personal opinion instead of hard evidence. As a result, most if not all adultery cases are unfairly tried.
How is stoning carried out?
The Islamic Penal Code of Iran is very specific regarding the details of how stoning should be executed. Article 102 states that men shall be buried up to their waists and women up to their breasts for the execution. Article 104 states, referring to the penalty for adultery, that the stones used should “not be large enough to kill the person by one or two strikes; nor should they be so small that they could not be defined as stones (pebbles.)”. In some cases, if a victim can escape from the ditch during the stoning, they will be freed. However, because women are buried up to their breasts and men only at their waists, women will have a smaller chance of escaping than men.
What is the relationship between stoning and women’s rights?
Women are far more likely to become victims of stoning. For example, of the ten cases of individuals awaiting punishment by stoning in Iran, nine are women. Even though there is no article in law that mandates punishment by stoning exclusively for women, misogynist and discriminatory laws in the Iranian Penal Code, particularly Family Law, make women far more likely than men to be found guilty of “adultery”.
In the Iranian Penal Code, a married woman has no right to divorce, a privilege which is reserved for the husband. Women have no custody rights of their children after age seven; as a result, women who can obtain a divorce by proving their husbands are either abusive or an addict, choose not to do so fearing the loss of their children. A man can marry up to four wives simultaneously, and may establish a sexual relationship with any other single woman through a temporary marriage without the requirements of marriage registration, ceremony, or obligation to any possible child that may result. In addition, a woman is legally obliged to submit to her husband’s sexual demands and do her best to satisfy him sexually. Many similar discriminatory laws and regulations exist in other countries and communities where stoning is still practiced.
Hence if a man is sexually unsatisfied or in an unhappy relationship, he has many avenues open to him to dissolve the marriage and/or satisfy his sexual needs in a temporary “marriage”. However, these legal options are denied to women, and a woman seeking alternative intimate relationships is, in the eyes of the law, “committing adultery”.
Dalia of course I disagree with stoning like I disagree with using Sharia in our modern times, but its a fact that man has created laws to punish those who sin..the trick is not to be a sinner..is this a problem ? If you are a sinner then the law shall be applied, regardless of the kind of punishment, but a sinner must be punished...if a man rapes a woman he deserves to be hung..this is what we gave them in Egypt, while in the west, he's back into society after serving 3-5 years in the slammer! Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Dzosser
You said something I agree with. In the west pedofiles and rapist of women seem to get less and less time served. I think people who violate children should be giving the death penalty. I can't stand that perverts get to ruin a life and get like 2-4 years for there crimes. That is just shameful and the 1st World really needs to rethink there criminal justice system.
Lots of Children and Women commit suicide because they relive what happens to them and there life is basically over. Something Harsher needs to be done to these people.
Peace
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Dear questioner! Thanks a lot for your confidence in us and your eagerness to understand the true teachings of Islam and find guidance. May Allah help us fulfill His Commands!
First of all, a correction should be made to the following phrase in your question: “the punishment specified for the person who commits adultery is 80 lashes”. It’s to be noted that as regard flogging - as a punishment specified for an unmarried person guilty of fornication – it’s 100 and not 80 lashes. In the very beginning of Surat An-Nur, it is stated that 100 lashes is the punishment specified for unmarried adulterer and adulteress, Allah says: (The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.) (An-Nur 24: 2).
Adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
Fornication: voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
Clear to me, 100 stripes. An unmarried person cannot commit adultery, the word adultery refers to a married person. An unmarried person commits fornication, not adultery. Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I think the problem with this is that vary rarely do any of them produce 4 witnesses to the act, THATS the problem
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 806:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque, and he called him, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but that man repeated his statement four times, and after he bore witness against himself four times, the Prophet called him, saying, "Are you mad?" The man said, "No." The Prophet said, "Are you married?" The man said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said, "Take him away and stone him to death." Jabir bin 'Abdullah said: I was among the ones who participated in stoning him and we stoned him at the Musalla. When the stones troubled him, he fled, but we overtook him at Al-Harra and stoned him to death.
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 818:
Narrated Zaid bin Khalid Al-Jihani: I heard the Prophet ordering that an unmarried person guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be flogged one-hundred stripes and be exiled for one year. Umar bin Al-Khattab also exiled such a person, and this tradition is still valid.
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death. Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
Muhammad claimed to be the best example and a messenger of God yet he followed the pagan practices of a people whom he called ignorant. By doing so he made their 7th century laws and practises, norms for everyone. The Quran is self-evidently a writing of its time. It would never cross any open mind that the Quran might be the eternal dictate of the Creator.
Muhammad began and ended up with a pagan religion with the only difference being that he repackaged it in a monotheistic context.
If you hear a scholar say: to read the Quran in translation is to take it out of context, you may reply: No, it is you who have wrenched it from its context. It belongs within the context of the seventh century CE, in the context of a land of tribal feuds and treachery. That is the only context in which it stands. The Quran is indeed literal. It is human. All too human.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
UT you quote hadith and say this is what happened then quote Quran which shws what should happen. No matter how many times you say it the prophet was given his orders from God and no way would he have done what is quoted in hadith when he had a clear verse in Quran.
Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia* quoting islamonline.com: not all the Divine messages are to be through one channel, i.e. a direct revelation. Rather, part of these messages is to be clarified through the practice and tradition of the Prophet sent to deliver the message.
So the point here is: the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is itself a part of revelation.
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
They are not fake hadiths. They are Sahih Hadiths meaning authentic, true. The early Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih only when its authenticity was verified.
If stoning is a punishment from Allah then let Allah stone the adulterers in the afterlife. No one has the right to take the life of another human being.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Tibe, if God told His prophet a certain rule then how could he go against that? It is specific in Quran so Muhammed is not going to go his own way and stone someone when God said lashing. Muhammed would certainly not have treated the man in one way and the woman in another, the Quran is equal punishment for both the man and the woman and its lashing NOT stoning. Stoning was in use way before this and is from Torah, these men had to have a way to keep hold of their 'cultural traditions' after Muhammed died which is why the hadith do NOT match Quran even though they have 'supposedly' been 'scientifically sorted' to throw out any that contradict Quran, this one clearly does!
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: They are not fake hadiths. They are Sahih Hadiths meaning authentic, true. The early Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih only when its authenticity was verified.
If stoning is a punishment from Allah then let Allah stone the adulterers in the afterlife. No one has the right to take the life of another human being.
In Quran it is NOT a punishment from Allah as YOU clearly posted the verse. Stoning WAS a punishment in the Torah, a book YOU should still be following if it wasnt for Paul the founder of Christianity who made up a pack of lies to cover his own ass and split from Judaism which JESUS FOLLOWED. Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
quote:..when God said lashing.
Do you really believe these are the eternal words of God?
This is from Quran: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Still lashing is not an acceptable punishment for "fornification" in this time and age.
Posted by Sub-zero (Member # 9691) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
Did I understand you right when you said here that marrying four wives is not mentioned in the Quran? Please correct me.
Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Tibe, if God told His prophet a certain rule then how could he go against that? It is specific in Quran so Muhammed is not going to go his own way and stone someone when God said lashing. Muhammed would certainly not have treated the man in one way and the woman in another, the Quran is equal punishment for both the man and the woman and its lashing NOT stoning. Stoning was in use way before this and is from Torah, these men had to have a way to keep hold of their 'cultural traditions' after Muhammed died which is why the hadith do NOT match Quran even though they have 'supposedly' been 'scientifically sorted' to throw out any that contradict Quran, this one clearly does!
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
So does that mean that if the hadith is good - its true and usefull but if its saying something bad its lies or useless??? Im not a muslim-cristian or jew. Never had the desire to follow any old books or rules but still i find it interesting to discuss. (Please forgive if it sounds harsh, - i just like to challenge things by questioning them )
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [qb] Stoning WAS a punishment in the Torah, a book YOU should still be following if it wasnt for Paul the founder of Christianity who made up a pack of lies to cover his own ass
Stoning is what Jews practised 3000 years ago. Stoning is something only Muslims practice today, because Muhammad made it an eternal command.
Jesus never stoned anyone. In fact, the "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" incident is one of the most well-known lessons of the Bible.
"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"
"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."
"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."
"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"
"She said, No man, Lord."
"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:2-11 KJV)
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
Did I understand you right when you said here that marrying four wives is not mentioned in the Quran? Please correct me.
I didnt say it was not mentioned in Quran, it is, but it is also mentioned that you can do this IF you can treat them fairly and in 4:129 you are told quite clearly that Allah KNOWS YOU CANT no matter how much you try therefore = 1 is better for you. but man in his infinite wisdom thinks he knows better than Allah and carries on marrying up to 4 'coz Allah said he can' Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Tibe, if God told His prophet a certain rule then how could he go against that? It is specific in Quran so Muhammed is not going to go his own way and stone someone when God said lashing. Muhammed would certainly not have treated the man in one way and the woman in another, the Quran is equal punishment for both the man and the woman and its lashing NOT stoning. Stoning was in use way before this and is from Torah, these men had to have a way to keep hold of their 'cultural traditions' after Muhammed died which is why the hadith do NOT match Quran even though they have 'supposedly' been 'scientifically sorted' to throw out any that contradict Quran, this one clearly does!
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
So does that mean that if the hadith is good - its true and usefull but if its saying something bad its lies or useless??? Im not a muslim-cristian or jew. Never had the desire to follow any old books or rules but still i find it interesting to discuss. (Please forgive if it sounds harsh, - i just like to challenge things by questioning them )
doesnt sound harsh tibe and its good to question things, especially religion whether you believe or not you have a right to ask questions.
First I do not think hadith should be used as part of Islam, they are not from God and there are numerous posts here relating to hadith, when they could have been collected and the timings involved etc, I doubt all of them to be actually anything to do with the prophet and when we are told repeatedly about the 'scientific' ways of searching through and sorting them and classifying them into 'sahih' etc makes me laugh. the one thing they do say is if it doesnt match Quran its thrown out as false, this one obviously doesnt match Quran so why is it still there as 'sahih' hadith?? because then they invent that it 'used to be there' but was abrogated, leaving one to think that they are making Quran fit with hadith instead of the other way round.
The rules are all in Quran, it says its complete it says it has the rules then why does man need to add more?? because he needs it to fit with what MAN wants, as man did before and we were warned about IN Quran.
Posted by Sub-zero (Member # 9691) on :
Okay Ayisha, thank you, I thought so too. Are you aware that denying the Sunna or Prophetic traditions and sayings would be looked upon as denying Islam itself from the point of view of practically all Muslims? The way they see it, (and it was displayed here before by one of the members) that Hadith clarifies certain aspects in the Quran.
One thing always lingered in my mind concerning the stoning issue by the way. If we would agree that stoning was imposed by Omar Ibn El Khatab as some historians say, yet why do Shia’s use it till today like in Iran? They totally deny anything narrated by Omar nor his son, but why that specific issue? If we agree that stoning was not mentioned in Quran, might it be that this practice was approved by a higher authority than Omar, maybe the Prophet himself?
Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: [QB] Okay Ayisha, thank you, I thought so too. Are you aware that denying the Sunna or Prophetic traditions and sayings would be looked upon as denying Islam itself from the point of view of practically all Muslims? The way they see it, (and it was displayed here before by one of the members) that Hadith clarifies certain aspects in the Quran.
subz I am well aware that the majority of muslims would consider me a kafir, I have been called it enough times. I do not deny Islam, the Islam that Allah gave in His Books, I deny the man made Islam that most follow today as did the Jews and Christians, also warned about in Quran. I do not need a label of 'Muslim' to BE muslim and I will be judged by Allah alone. If the hadith worshippers consider me not a muslim then I would refer them to the hadith where it is said if one Muslim calls another a non-muslim, then one if them is certainly not muslim. I dont know the number or book thats in but it is sahih. if the hadith worshippers would care to have a verse from Quran also: 6:116 Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
quote:One thing always lingered in my mind concerning the stoning issue by the way. If we would agree that stoning was imposed by Omar Ibn El Khatab as some historians say, yet why do Shia’s use it till today like in Iran? They totally deny anything narrated by Omar nor his son, but why that specific issue? If we agree that stoning was not mentioned in Quran, might it be that this practice was approved by a higher authority than Omar, maybe the Prophet himself?
I dont see how it could be and again refer to what I said earlier. Muhammed got his rules from Allah, not from his own thoughts or ideas, if Allah gave a specific rule for a certain thing can you really see Muhammed going over His head and applying his own rules? As for shia I dont know a lot about them but they do have strange practices as far as I know like lashing and cutting themselves and such. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
No tibe, in Islam it should ALL be about compassion and tollerance, according to Quran anyway. All the way through it will give rules for this or that punishment yet at the same time it tells you if you repent then Allah is the most comapssionate, the most merciful.
Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
No tibe, in Islam it should ALL be about compassion and tollerance, according to Quran anyway. All the way through it will give rules for this or that punishment yet at the same time it tells you if you repent then Allah is the most comapssionate, the most merciful.
Yes but where are the tolerance in rules and punishments?? Especially rules that is against human nature such as premarital sex and why are women punished harder for the same crime than men are. Men given lashes and women being stoned to death. Why does they witness' to a crime have to be muslims and men (like with rape). Where is the tolerance and compassion in that?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
verse 25:68 says about adultery and fornication, that they should be punished.
verse 25:69 says the punishment will be doubled in heaven
verse 25:70 then says 'unless they repent' and work righteous deeds etc
how can one repent if one is stoned to death? Its clear by this that the punishment is lashing, then one can repent after the punishment, but not if you are stoned to death.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
No tibe, in Islam it should ALL be about compassion and tollerance, according to Quran anyway. All the way through it will give rules for this or that punishment yet at the same time it tells you if you repent then Allah is the most comapssionate, the most merciful.
Yes but where are the tolerance in rules and punishments?? Especially rules that is against human nature such as premarital sex and why are women punished harder for the same crime than men are. Men given lashes and women being stoned to death. Why does they witness' to a crime have to be muslims and men (like with rape). Where is the tolerance and compassion in that?
This is what im saying tibe, Quran gives the same punishment to men and women, there is no lashing for men and stoning for women, that is hadith and its from MAN not from GOD. Quran says for adultery and fornication 100 lashes, for BOTH men and women, man in his infinite wisdom has decided differently.
There has to be 4 witnesses to the ACT of sex, now unless they are doing it as a show in front of witnesses how is that ever going to happen?? Also if someone accuses someone of adultery and its false the accuser is lashed for lying. All in all SHOULD make people very careful about who they accuse of what and to be damned sure they can prove it, which does NOT happen today with using hadith to back up the MAN made rules they go by.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The rules are all in Quran, it says its complete
But it's not. The Quran without hadith is not complete. In hadith for example, you are given detailed instructions as to how perform the salat. If the Quran was complete why would Gabriel needed to teach it to Muhammad? Obviously the Quran was not enough and that is why Gabriel had to show to Muhammad how to perform the prayer. Then Muhammad explained that orally to his followers. That is what constitutes hadith. Therefore, again we see that without the hadith, not even the pillars of Islam can be practiced. Of course, there is a lot more to hadith. It is also the source of the history of Islam and that is the most important function of it. Islam will not become meaningless even if Muslims prayed differently, but without a history, the very existence of Muhammad can be questioned.
So you see the Quran is not complete. As a matter of fact, Quran is wrong in almost all its assertions. Every objective person can see that. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. You insist the Quran is complete and perfect,
This is how you prove your claim that ‘the Quran is divine’: The Quran is divine because it is a perfect and error free book.
And this how you prove your claim that ‘the Quran contains no errors’: It is illogical to say the Quran contains errors, because it is divine and perfect.
This is what I call circular reasoning.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
LOL Dzosser would you have me clap them in irons or hang them or stone them perhaps? for asking questions? What do I care?? I care because we all have questions at some point and asking those questions shouldnt be seen as an invitation to discriminate. At one time I asked a lot of questions and if I hadnt found answers to those questions maybe I wouldnt be Muslim today. Who are we to know whats in the heart of another person, Allah guides all people in different ways, one is to ask questions. Posted by Tibe still working (Member # 16647) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
LOL Dzosser would you have me clap them in irons or hang them or stone them perhaps? for asking questions? What do I care?? I care because we all have questions at some point and asking those questions shouldnt be seen as an invitation to discriminate. At one time I asked a lot of questions and if I hadnt found answers to those questions maybe I wouldnt be Muslim today. Who are we to know whats in the heart of another person, Allah guides all people in different ways, one is to ask questions.
There is bad attitudes and there is good attitudes - perfect example
Thanks for answering my critical questions Ayisha Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
LOL Dzosser would you have me clap them in irons or hang them or stone them perhaps? for asking questions? What do I care?? I care because we all have questions at some point and asking those questions shouldnt be seen as an invitation to discriminate. At one time I asked a lot of questions and if I hadnt found answers to those questions maybe I wouldnt be Muslim today. Who are we to know whats in the heart of another person, Allah guides all people in different ways, one is to ask questions.
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
"The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (Bukhari. vol. 1, no. 92)
The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (Bukhari vol. 1, no. 91)
"Allah has hated you...[for] asking too many questions." (Bukhari vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591.
"The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things." (The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
"Dear Muslim: If you love your faith and want to keep it, leave this site NOW. We have set thousands of Muslims free. Some of them were more faithful and more knowledgeable than you. Many of them are now helping other Muslims in their journey to freedom. Truth is very powerful and you may not have the strength to resist it. This site has the potential to undo Islam. This is no hyperbole. It is a reality that is already happening. A silent revolution is taking place, unprecedented in history. If you don’t leave Islam, your children will. The sun of truth has dawned. Your only chance to remain a Muslim is to keep your head deep in the sand. The more you learn the truth the more you will lose your faith. Truth will set you free, but if you fear freedom leave this site NOW. However, if you feel valiant, meet my challenge and I will remove this site."
LOL
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
ROFL Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Somali 'killer' stoned to death
Hardline Islamist militiamen in Somalia have stoned to death a man accused of raping and murdering a woman.
The execution took place in front of a large crowd in the town of Wanlaweyn, about 90km (55 miles) south of the capital Mogadishu.
The man was convicted by an unofficial court set up by the al-Shabab movement.
On Thursday in Mogadishu, al-Shabab - which advocates a strict form of Sharia - publicly amputated a hand and a foot from each of four men accused of theft.
"This man was accused of raping and killing an 18-year-old girl in May this year. The court found him guilty of the charges brought against him," Sheikh Mohamed Saleban, a local al-Shabab official, told AFP news agency on Sunday.
"He was a married man, which is why the court sentenced him to be stoned to death," he added, explaining that a rape conviction only incurs flogging.
Local resident Abdullahi Husein said most of the town's population turned out to watch the lynching, where gunmen banned cameras and mobile phones.
"Ten masked men from the al-Shabab forces stoned him to death in front of everyone. They had dug a hole, buried him to his neck before throwing stones at him," he told AFP.
In October last year, al-Shabab ordered a 13-year-old girl to be stoned to death in public in the southern city of Kismayo.
She was accused of adultery after reporting she had been raped by three men.
The radical Islamists, who are accused of links to al-Qaeda, already control much of the south of the country.
Since last month, al-Shabab's guerrillas have been locked in ferocious battles with forces loyal to the fragile UN-backed government in Mogadishu.
Last week, the administration appealed to neighbouring countries urgently to send troops to help.
A moderate Islamist president took office in January but even his introduction of Sharia law to the strongly Muslim country has not appeased the guerrillas.
Somalia has been without an effective government since 1991.
Nothing cries Peace, and love, like a good old fashion amputation. All good and legal like.
"MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) — A court run by an extremist Islamic group sentenced four Somali men on Monday to each have a hand and a leg cut off for allegedly stealing mobile phones and guns.."
Amnesty International appealed to al-Shabab not to carry out the "cruel, inhuman and degrading punishments," all while failing to recognize that it is not al-Shabab but rather sharia law that calls for "cruel, inhuman and degrading punishments."
I will quote two of Islamic scholars of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence (since that is the school generally followed in Somalia):
Abu al-Hasan al-Mawardi:
"All owned property beyond a certain minimum if stolen by a major in possession of his own faculties who has no rightful claim to it incurs the amputation of the right arm at the elbow joint." (Al-Mawardi, The Ordinances of Government [Al-Ahkam al-Sultaniyya], translated by Wafaa H. Wahba. Garnet Publishing, 1996, p. 245).
Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri:
"A person's right hand is amputated, whether he is a Muslim, non-Muslim subject of the Islamic state, or someone who has left Islam, when he: (a) has reached puberty; (b) is sane; (c) is acting voluntarily; (d) and steals at least a quarter of a dinar (n: 1.058 grams of gold) or goods worth that much (A: at the market prices current) at the time of the theft..." (Ahmed ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller ['Umdat al-Salik]: A Classical Manuel of Islamic Sacred Law, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Amana Publications, 2008, o14.1).
In terms of traditional Islamic jurisprudence the Somali al-Shabab group is hardly "extremist" (as the article would have us believe), but quite within the mainstream of Sunni judicial thought.
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
They of course follow the sunna of their Prophet:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261:
Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you sh ould join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot. So his (left) foot was cut off. He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.) He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off. He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him. So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.web page Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
RAJM: STONING TO DEATH
Sectarian Islam tried to revoke the Quranic verses and added something alien to the Quran: namely stoning to death. What is still more terrifying was the allegation of traditionalists who argued that there was a missing link in the Quran that had to be supplemented. According to their account, the verse that treated the stoning to death of the offender accused of adultery did exist but was eaten up by a goat.
In the meantime, we must not forget that all the sects without exception have vindicated this argument. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Davudi Hanbal, Ibn Maja hold a brief for the existence of rajm. Yet, the retribution for adultery is well explained in the Quran. To introduce a new provision that contradicts the Quran shows the kind of mentality and the degree of faith in the Quran of the traditionalist Islamist.
2 - The adulteress and the adulterer should be flogged a hundred lashes (jalda) each. Do not be swayed by kindness from carrying out God’s law, if you believe in God and the Last Day. And the punishment should be witnessed by a group of believers. 24 The Light, 2
The punishment is then the flogging of the offender with a jalda, an Arabic expression meaning a stick that would hurt the skin. The Arabic words ansa, minsa, which have the signification of rod, or cudgel, are not mentioned. By this is meant that the idea was not to inflict pain to the offender but merely to expose him/her to public censure. According to the Quran, to prove adultery, the testimony of four witnesses is required. If we take into consideration that immunity of private ownership is de rigueur in Islam, it is difficult for four persons to witness the adulterous act at the same time. Yet, this is a prescription that bans the institution of brothels. While even in such a case, God says not to be overtaken by compassion, how can a cruel punishment like stoning to death be envisaged? Moreover, in the preceding verse (24 The Light, 1) it is stressed that the verse to follow is explicit enough. This is the law of God who is never short of words (31 Luqmaan, 27); who is the Supreme Lawgiver (5 The Feast, 50); who is not forgetful (19 Mary, 64) and who has revealed the Quran in all its details (11 Hud, 1).
The story runs as follows: “The verses of the Quran written on papyri were kept in the house of Aisha, the Prophet’s wife. A hungry goat that had access ate them.” An account of this may be read in the books of Ibn Maja’s Nikah; Hanbal. How can a verse of the Quran that had been completed and learned by heart vanish after the death of the Prophet? According to the traditionalist Islam, Ibn Kutayba uses the following introductory remark before tackling the problem: “The goat is a holy animal.” Then he continues enumerating the merits of this holy goat. “God who annihilated the tribes Ad and Samud might well have a goat to repeal His verse.” Ibn Kutayba, who established an analogy between these atheist tribes destroyed by God and this event, sets a good example for the incongruous approaches of traditionalist, sectarian Islamists.
A hadith falsely ascribed to Caliph Omar states: “People will arise in the future who will deny the existence of rajm. These people will be religious apostates. Had I not feared the people’s allegation that Omar was making additions to the Quran, I would have introduced the rajm verse in the Quran” (Bukhari, Muslim Hudud, Abu Davud).
In our opinion, even this single hadith is enough to argue against the unreliability of the books of Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Davud. According to the mentality of these hadiths, Omar feared public censure more than God.
STONING OF ADULTEROUS MONKEYS
Not being content with such concoctions, Bukhari says that even monkeys having witnessed an adulterous relation between two monkeys had punished the offenders by stoning them to death. Kurtubi says that at the end of the Sura Ahzab there was a missing verse (namely the verse about rajm) and that it had been omitted by the scribes under Caliph Osman. There was no end to justifications sought to vindicate the existence of rajm.
To prove their case, sectarians have tried to abrogate (nasih) the explicit provision of 24 The Light, 2. According to one rumor, there was no rajm in the Quran during the time of Caliph Omar; according to another account, it is alleged that it had been omitted during the time of Caliph Osman. And according to another legend,it was said that a goat had eaten it. Then the rajm of monkeys are reported which, according to hearsay, the companions had witnessed. All these in total disregard the explicit prescription in the Quran to this effect! According to the Quran, the Quran is a self-sufficient and complete book. According to books of hadiths and the sectarians this is not so. While the Quran preached not to be divided into factions and sermonized against sectarians, the sects have been relentless in insisting on the details to be observed during the stoning: “In stoning, pebbles each of the size of a chickpea shall be used. The adulteress will be driven into a pit while the man shall be stoned standing.” (Book of four sects)
TIME TO BRING THE QURAN DOWN FROM THE WALL
It is to be regretted that the Quran has been hung at a lofty place and the contents only read for the souls of the departed. The sectarians argued that the Quran was a book that could only be understood by a few. Man’s common sense and intellectual genius were vilified. Sectarian imams had the exclusivity of the religion. Scholars in other branches of science could not possibly conceive what was said in the Quran and were to obey the word of the sectarians rather than formulating their own opinions.
100 - And He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. 10 Jonah, 100
10 - We have sent down to you a Book which has a reminder for you. Will you not then understand? 21 The Prophets, 10
20-year-old woman divorcee accused of committing adultery in Somalia has been stoned to death by Islamists in front of a crowd of about 200 people.
A judge working for the militant group al-Shabab said she had had an affair with an unmarried 29-year-old man.
He said she gave birth to a still-born baby and was found guilty of adultery. Her boyfriend was given 100 lashes.
It is thought to be the second time a woman has been stoned to death for adultery by al-Shabab.
The group controls large swathes of southern Somalia where they have imposed a strict interpretation of Islamic law which has been unpopular with many Somalis.
'Lenient'
According to reports from a small village near the town of Wajid, 250 miles (400km) north-west of the capital, Mogadishu, the woman was taken to the public grounds where she was buried up to her waist.
She was then stoned to death in front of the crowds on Tuesday afternoon.
The judge, Sheikh Ibrahim Abdirahman, said her unmarried boyfriend was given 100 lashes at the same venue.
Under al-Shabab's interpretation of Sharia law, anyone who has ever been married - even a divorcee - who has an affair is liable to be found guilty of adultery, punishable by stoning to death.
An unmarried person who has sex before marriage is liable to be given 100 lashes.
BBC East Africa correspondent Will Ross says the stoning is at least the fourth for adultery in Somalia over the last year.
Earlier this month, a man was stoned to death for adultery in the port town of Merka, south of Mogadishu.
His pregnant girlfriend was spared, until she gives birth.
A girl was stoned to death for adultery in the southern town of Kismayo last year. Human rights groups said she was 13 years old and had been raped, but the Islamists said she was older and had been married.
Last month, two men were stoned to death in Merka after being accused of spying.
President Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, a moderate Islamist, was sworn in as president after UN-brokered peace talks in January.
Although he says he also wants to implement Sharia, al-Shabab says his version of Islamic law would be too lenient.
The country has not had a functioning national government for 18 years.
A veteran Iranian human rights activist has warned that Sakineh Mohammadie Ashtiani, a mother of two, could be stoned to death at any moment under the terms of a death sentence handed down by Iranian authorities.
Only an international campaign designed to pressure the regime in Tehran can save her life, according to Mina Ahadi, head of the International Committee Against Stoning and the Death Penalty.
"Legally it's all over," Ahadi said Sunday. "It's a done deal. Sakineh can be stoned at any minute."
"That is why we have decided to start a very broad, international public movement. Only that can help."
Ashtiani, 42, will be buried up to her chest, according to an Amnesty International report citing the Iranian penal code. The stones that will be hurled at her will be large enough to cause pain but not so large as to kill her immediately.
Ashtiani, who is from the northern city of Tabriz, was convicted of adultery in 2006.
She was forced to confess after being subjected to 99 lashes, human rights lawyer Mohammad Mostafaei said Thursday in a telephone interview from Tehran.
She later retracted that confession and has denied wrongdoing. Her conviction was based not on evidence but on the determination of three out of five judges, Mostafaei said.
She has asked forgiveness from the court but the judges refused to grant clemency.
already signed...such a sad affair. Posted by nevermind (Member # 6674) on :
Signed...
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
signed, this is murder pure and simple
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Wed at 14, 'adulterous' girl, Azar Bagheri, awaits stoning
Wed at 14, 'adulterous' girl, Azar Bagheri, awaits stoning
SHE was only 14 when she was forced into marriage with an older man.
Yet within a year of her wedding, Azar Bagheri was charged with adultery and sentenced to be stoned to death.
The sentence could not be carried out until she was 18. So for the past four years, Ms Bagheri has been languishing on death row while the courts waited for her to reach maturity so she could be put to death.
According to Iranian human rights activist Mina Ahadi, Ms Bagheri was denounced by her husband, who accused her of committing adultery with two men.
Ms Ahadi said the teenager had been subjected to two mock stonings. On each occasion she was taken out of her cell and buried up to her shoulders in the yard of Tabriz prison, in northwest Iran, as if being prepared to be pelted to death with stones.
Ms Bagheri's lawyers are now planning to ask the judges to reduce her sentence to 99 lashes. Buoyed by an international campaign against Iran's death sentence for women convicted of adultery, they hope the court will show mercy.
After widespread condemnation of the sentence of stoning passed on another woman, Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, 43, the Iranians backed down last week. The Iranian embassy in London said that according to information from the judicial authorities in Tehran, the stoning of Ms Ashtiani would not go ahead.
But campaigners warned that Ms Ashtiani could still be executed by other means.
Amnesty International noted that three Iranians sentenced to death by stoning last year had been hanged instead.
"A mere change of the method of execution would not address the injustice," said Amnesty's deputy director for the Middle East, Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui.
Ms Ashtiani was sentenced in 2006 for having an "illicit relationship" with two men, for which she has already received a public flogging of 99 lashes. She was convicted of adultery even though she was a widow at the time -- her husband was killed before the alleged affair started.
Her family claims that during the trial of the two men accused of murdering her husband, another court found her guilty of adultery with the suspects, even though no evidence was given.
Her lawyer, Mohammad Mostafaei, said: "She has been waiting to be stoned to death for six years. She is having repetitive endless nightmares about death mixed with people stoning her."
Under Iran's penal code, adultery is the only crime punishable by stoning as an offence "against divine law". The death sentence may also be imposed for murder, rape, armed robbery and drug trafficking, but offenders are usually hanged.
Stoning is intended to cause a slow and painful death. Iran's penal code states: "The size of the stone . . . shall not be too large to kill the convict by one or two throws, and shall not be too small to be called a stone."
I do not agree though that the real crime is the stoning. I believe that the real crime is that someone can be sentenced to death by **any** means based on a sexual relationship so amended that bit to that effect.
Surely to God this is the most sickening twisting of culture and religion ever dreamt up by mankind that you can take a LIFE based on the sex act.
Even the Saudi Prince convicted of murder in London last week is scared to return to Saudi because he faces the death penalty for .... being homosexual .... not committing murder!
What a SICK SICK SICK society.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Signed, I hope it helps.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
These days, with Sharia being relatively high-profile, it has become common for Islamic apologists and whitewashers to claim that Sharia is nowhere being properly implemented today, and in particular that Saudi Arabia and Iran are not actually Sharia states at all, despite their own claims. This is, of course, manifestly absurd. Stoning for adultery, to take just this present example, is a Sharia punishment taught by all the madhahib (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) and founded upon Muhammad's example as delineated by numerous ahadith.
Posted by 'Shahrazat (Member # 12769) on :
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday that the case of a woman sentenced to death by stoning was still under investigation and denounced the US outcry over her sentence as biased.
The case of Sakineh Mohammadi-Ashtiani, who has been sentenced to die by stoning on charges of adultery, has sparked international outrage and calls from the United States and Europe for her execution to be called off.
Ahmedinejad said; "I want to make my own appeal. In the United States there are 53 women condemned to death. Why is the whole world not asking them to pardon these women? We handed to them a list of these women but the media is in their hands and this is why they are not covering this question."
"This case is still under investigation. Iran's investigative agencies are very competent and they will take the right decision on this matter,"
Mohammadi-Ashtiani was sentenced to death by two different courts in the northwestern city of Tabriz in separate trials in 2006. A sentence to hang for her involvement in the murder of her husband was commuted to a 10-year jail term by an appeals court in 2007. But a second sentence, to die by stoning, was on a charge of adultery levelled over several relationships, notably with the man convicted of her husband's murder. That was upheld by another appeals court the same year. Reports early this month that her execution was imminent sparked widespread international condemnation.
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