Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387: Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah."
Who sang that song "The lunatics are taking over the asylum" Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
Say: "O you unbelievers, 109:2 I do not worship that what you worship, 109:3 and neither do you worship that what I worship. 109:4 And I do not worship that what you did worship, 109:5 and neither do you worship that what I worship. 109:6 Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine."
this is a sura in the holy book QURAAN. i believe in Quraan and the true hadith of Our prophet Mohamed (PBUH) and believe in all the prophet came before .
Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) the most tolerant human being came on earth ever. and we have another verse in Quraan said we never make differences between the prophets as they r all equal.
scholars can be wrong but Quran never wrong.
i dont know from where did u get this hadith.
i live in Egypt. Muslims and Christians live together.
India has the biggest Muslim population in the world and still loads of other religions there and still live together.
i hope i cleared things for u.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: scholars can be wrong but Quran never wrong.
i dont know from where did u get this hadith.
[/QB]
It is SAHIH Bukhari Pablo
So Quran again shows this Sahih hadith to be falsly attributed to the prophet.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
look shaikhs collected about 60 000 hadith . but we have only 4000 in sahih Bukhari . they wanted to get the true ones in one book which is Sahih Bukhari wa Muslim.
but we have in fiqh. what ever OPPOSITE to Quraan is not true and we dont take it. even if it was hadith collected after the death of our Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) u might find some falsely attributed to the prophet.
i hope we can lighten each other.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: look shaikhs collected about 60 000 hadith . but we have only 4000 in sahih Bukhari . they wanted to get the true ones in one book which is Sahih Bukhari wa Muslim.
but we have in fiqh. what ever OPPOSITE to Quraan is not true and we dont take it. even if it was hadith collected after the death of our Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) u might find some falsely attributed to the prophet.
i hope we can lighten each other.
but all the sorting out was supposed to have been done to arrive at what is now sahih, right? so how come there are MANY still in sahih hadith that shouldn't be, obviously they were not sorted out properly to begin with. The Quran itself tells you the BEST HADITH is the hadith of Allah. The Quran itself tells you what hadith do you need after this best hadith. So WHY bother with ANY hadith false or not other than Quran? Quran is the ONLY one that is 100%.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
great as we believe in Quraan 100% and im agree with u in that so we have to believe in MOHAMED as it was mentioned in Quraan. ( ما اتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا ) take what ever the prophet told u. and leave what ever he told u not to do .
so we have to be a bit careful. i would take it 100% if i heard it from Mohamed (PBUH) him self or matches what ever mentioned in Quraan.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: great as we believe in Quraan 100% and im agree with u in that so we have to believe in MOHAMED as it was mentioned in Quraan.
take what ever the prophet told u. and leave what ever he told u not to do .
so we have to be a bit careful. i would take it 100% if i heard it from Mohamed (PBUH) him self or matches what ever mentioned in Quraan.
where on earth did you get that translation from? It has nothing to do with being TOLD anything!
Might help with the rest of the verse
59.7 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
Given the previous verse 59.6 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from them - for this ye made no expedition with either cavalry or camelry: but Allah gives power to His messengers over any He pleases: and Allah has power over all things.
It is OBVIOUS it is talking about spoils of war and NOT whatever he said or some guy over 200 years later CLAIMS he said.
Honestly when will you people stop using that part of a verse to justify following some false hadith attributed to the prophet of ALLAH.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Honestly when will you people stop using that part of a verse to justify following some false hadith attributed to the prophet of ALLAH.
I am starting to think that most people who use that verse in order to claim we have to follow ahadeeth have simply been told that's what it means but never actually read it in context.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
[/QUOTE] where on earth did you get that translation from? It has nothing to do with being TOLD anything!
So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
It is OBVIOUS it is talking about spoils of war and NOT whatever he said or some guy over 200 years later CLAIMS he said.
Honestly when will you people stop using that part of a verse to justify following some false hadith attributed to the prophet of ALLAH. ] [QUOTE]
i think u need to read my post again.
may be ur translation is better coz u read it in English but for me i read it in Arabic.
im not saying to follow the false hadith and u just snapping at me .
all what i have said was to follow the hadith which is matching Quraan . if u see me wrong in this so please correct me.
i really want to ask u a question. r u Muslim Sunni ?
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Honestly when will you people stop using that part of a verse to justify following some false hadith attributed to the prophet of ALLAH.
I am starting to think that most people who use that verse in order to claim we have to follow ahadeeth have simply been told that's what it means but never actually read it in context.
i wanna show u some thing very important here. if u pray. how many times u pray every a day? who told u it is 5 times? who told u how to pray ? who told u how to to do WODHU ?
ITS ALL IN SUNNA an hadith. so if u dont follow sunna and hadith how can u pray? if u want only to follow Quraan . so how can u know how to pray and how many times?
but also i dont follow hadith blindly . it must be matching Quraan.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
where on earth did you get that translation from? It has nothing to do with being TOLD anything!
So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
It is OBVIOUS it is talking about spoils of war and NOT whatever he said or some guy over 200 years later CLAIMS he said.
Honestly when will you people stop using that part of a verse to justify following some false hadith attributed to the prophet of ALLAH. ]
quote:
i think u need to read my post again.
may be ur translation is better coz u read it in English but for me i read it in Arabic.
im not saying to follow the false hadith and u just snapping at me .
all what i have said was to follow the hadith which is matching Quraan . if u see me wrong in this so please correct me.
i really want to ask u a question. r u Muslim Sunni ?
Pablo if you think I snapped then I apologize but this verse is brought up by every person that wants to justify following hadith and as you will see if you read the verses as they are, the full verses in Quran, you will see it has nothing at all to do with the prophet giving you or telling you anything outside of Quran and is only to do with the spoils of war that the prophet distributed.
I am Muslim, the same as all the prophets were. I follow what Muhammed and all those before him followed which is the words of Allah. I have read Quran many times and I have also read Bukhari, Muslim and Maliks hadith and am familiar with them to the point I reject them as falsely attributed to the prophet by the enemies of Allah. The man in the hadith is NOT the man that was given the final message from Allah for mankind.
I also read that verse in Arabic and it still says nothing about TOLD anything. You should read the verse again, all of it.
Numerous times in Quran Allah has warned about following other things that are not from Him or the prophet.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i wanna show u some thing very important here. if u pray. how many times u pray every a day? who told u it is 5 times? who told u how to pray ? who told u how to to do WODHU ?
ITS ALL IN SUNNA an hadith. so if u dont follow sunna and hadith how can u pray? if u want only to follow Quraan . so how can u know how to pray and how many times?
Sorry, but these questions have been asked, answered and discussed literally dozens of times on here.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Honestly when will you people stop using that part of a verse to justify following some false hadith attributed to the prophet of ALLAH.
I am starting to think that most people who use that verse in order to claim we have to follow ahadeeth have simply been told that's what it means but never actually read it in context.
i wanna show u some thing very important here. if u pray. how many times u pray every a day? who told u it is 5 times? who told u how to pray ? who told u how to to do WODHU ?
ITS ALL IN SUNNA an hadith. so if u dont follow sunna and hadith how can u pray? if u want only to follow Quraan . so how can u know how to pray and how many times?
but also i dont follow hadith blindly . it must be matching Quraan.
sigh, visions of old chestnuts.
So Quran is not complete and fully detailed and Allah left bits out that Muhammed had to complete or correct later?
Lakum deenukum wa liya deen, Alahmdulillah!
All the above is IN Quran pablo, you gotta read it and reflect, but its all in there. prayer, wudu etc.
Tell me something Pablo, as the prophet was repeatedly told to follow the religion of Abraham, why don't you follow the hadith of Abraham an how did Abraham pray without the hadith of Muhammed? Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
okay. can u tell me any verse in Quraan tells us that we have to pray 5 times a day?
Mohamed (pbuh) came to complete the best of manners. not to complete Quraan.
Quraan is the complete word of God. allah needed the prophets to show us how to pray and how to treat people etc....
prayer it self was mentioned in Quraan but how many times and how to pray was only in Sunna.
i follow Ibrahim ( PBUH ) he is the father of all prophet , that all prophets came from his family and the friend of God. i believe in Ibrahim PBUH as i believe in Mohamed PBUH exactly. and all Muslims do.
did u know how he was praying?
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:
Lakum deenukum wa liya deen, Alahmdulillah!
quote:
i really want to know what did u mean?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: okay. can u tell me any verse in Quraan tells us that we have to pray 5 times a day?
How about you show us the hadith, it is not as simple as that in Quran as Allah wants you to THINK
quote:Mohamed (pbuh) came to complete the best of manners. not to complete Quraan.
Is it good manners to force people to believe or to burn Muslims in their homes if they don't turn up for prayer? these are hadith pablo.
quote:Quraan is the complete word of God. allah needed the prophets to show us how to pray and how to treat people etc....
If it is complete then He missed nothing out, you are saying He did by having prophets to show us things that can over the years become twisted and changed, His words cannot. If the hadith are how to treat people then you are also saying Allah did not show how to treat people in Quran and we should be forcing people to be muslim or kill than and if those muslims do not pray we should be burning them in their homes. Personally I do not believe after all the verses of Quran that Allah meant us to treat people like that.
quote:prayer it self was mentioned in Quraan but how many times and how to pray was only in Sunna.
No wrong, are you saying that Allah missed out the words bow, prostrate, worship? Are you saying He missed out when to pray? No, its all in there.
quote:i follow Ibrahim ( PBUH ) he is the father of all prophet , that all prophets came from his family and the friend of God. i believe in Ibrahim PBUH as i believe in Mohamed PBUH exactly. and all Muslims do.
then why follow the hadith as Abraham certainly did not follow the hadith of Muhammed.
quote:did u know how he was praying?
Yes, Quran tells you clearly enough.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Say: "O you unbelievers, 109:2 I do not worship that what you worship, 109:3 and neither do you worship that what I worship. 109:4 And I do not worship that what you did worship, 109:5 and neither do you worship that what I worship. 109:6 Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine."
this is a sura in the holy book QURAAN.
Again you're taking some Quranic verse out of context to 'prove' to us that Islam is peaceful. Sorry you're not convincing in the least.
For every tolerant verse you quote, I can quote ten more intolerant verses such as these:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection (9:29)."
"Slay the unbelievers whenever you find them" etc, etc.
As I have already stated a few millions of times before, the verses in the Quran that teach Muslims to live in peace should be examined within the historical context of Muhammad’s life, for it is this life that sheds light on an apparently ambiguous message. This historical context also sheds light on modern aspects of Islam, which ultimately derive from the life of its founder.
For instance, more than thirteen centuries ago, the relatively peaceful Muhammad fled Mecca. As he fled the city, he left the path of peace farther and farther behind him. He eventually returned at the head of an army, and few were brave enough to oppose him. Islamic law was suddenly supreme, with a host of bloody tales to warn its enemies. A similar phenomenon occurs in the world today. When Muslims are in the minority (as they are in America) the message is always "Let us live in peace with one another, for Islam is a religion of tolerance and understanding." Then, once Islam has spread throughout the country, the message suddenly changes to "Anyone who stands against the Prophet is worthy of death!"
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote:
Lakum deenukum wa liya deen, Alahmdulillah!
quote:
i really want to know what did u mean?
لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ
You understand it perfecty well, you posted it in this thread.
Edit: Don't waste time with vwvwv, it's a posting robot that does neither discuss nor debate. Previously known as Unfinished Thought.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i understand it right. but i didnt know why u add this into ur post.
i really dont want to go for a debate .
but lets find the things we both agree about which is QURAAN .
lets just follow Quraan. and obviously Quraan will lead u to follow the prophet of ALLAH Mohamed PBUH.
only the true hadith i believe in which is matching Quraan.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Quraan is the complete word of God.
You mean the word of God was incomplete?
In what ways the Quran is the complete word of God? Does the Quran guide society better than the New Testament? Does Muhammad fulfill and complete the mission and ministry of Jesus? I don't think so!
Suppose that I claim that my way is better than yours. Then I should be able to back up my verbal assertion with my actions in obvious ways. My behavior should actually be better than yours, for my actions speak louder than my words.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: and obviously Quraan will lead u to follow the prophet of ALLAH Mohamed PBUH.
Pablo, the prophet is dead. And following hearsay that has been written down many years after his death is not the same as following him.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: only the true hadith i believe in which is matching Quraan.
That is okay with me. If a hadith or a narration contradicts the Quran or the spirit of it we will reject it. That is how I look at the hadiths too.
However, in this case, freshsoda's hadith perfectly match Quran's instructions to:
"Slay the unbelievers whenever you find them"
“Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are harsh against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.”
So we see there is nothing extraordinary in freshsoda's hadith for us to doubt it. It is likely that this hadith is true.
For the same reason I cannot reject a Sahih Bukhari hadith on the basis of absurdiness or silliness, because you can find the same absurdiness and silliness in many parts of the Quran.
For example, who is more ridiculous Bukhari who recorded monkeys practice Sharia or the Quran that recirded that Jews were transformed into monkeys? I think you get my point.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Pablo, the prophet is dead. And following hearsay that has been written down many years after his death is not the same as following him.
These hadiths have been recorded by followers of Muhammad who gave their life for Islam.
The methodology they used, considering its time, was exemplary. They studied each hadith in details. its text and its chain of narrations and classified them into grades according to their authenticity.Most of the narrators were completely unrelated, yet they narrated the same story. Isn't that a miracle in itself?
Even by today’s standards, their scholarship and dedication to objectivity was amazing. Most of the two hundred thousand or so hadiths that were subjected to their thorough assessment were rejected and only a few thousands made it to their Sahih (correct) books.
Those early Muslim scholars, like Al Bukhari and Muslim, were no ordinary people; they were well informed highly educated and intelligent. In short, they were the geniuses of their time.
But forget the hadiths. How authentic is the Quran?
Q.2: 106. Any verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute with something better or similar. Don’t you know that Allah can do anything?
The above verse is a short answer to those who claim the Quran was preserved. The verse is a clear admission that the Quran contains contradicting (Muslims call it abrogated) verses, as well as verses that have been completely forgotten! But not to worry, Allah was capable to bring similar to those verses or even better!
Unlike the hadith, the collection of the Quran was politically motivated with none of methodology or high standards of scrutiny that characterized the hadiths’ collection. The vulnerability of the Quran lies in the fact that the presence of only one error, say a misplaced word or letter, is a good enough proof that the entire book is a hoax.
The Quran is probably the least authentic document in Islam as evidenced from the state of confusion and disagreements that prevailed among the early Muslims. The early Muslims disagreed on what constituted part of the Quran and what didn’t
Abdullah Ibn Umar said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an." Much of the Quran has gone’. Let him say instead, I have got what has survived..
The enormous amounts of repetitions and contradictions could be an indication of some degree of duplication and manipulation of the original text.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i understand it right. but i didnt know why u add this into ur post.
i really dont want to go for a debate .
but lets find the things we both agree about which is QURAAN .
lets just follow Quraan. and obviously Quraan will lead u to follow the prophet of ALLAH Mohamed PBUH.
only the true hadith i believe in which is matching Quraan.
Pablo, the prophet followed Quran, so following Quran is what a Muslim should do to follow the prophet. Not follow some لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Edit: Don't waste time with vwvwv, it's a posting robot that does neither discuss nor debate. Previously known as Unfinished Thought.
Who is talking to you? You are a posting bullshit in this forum, a bully, and a very manipulative person in your arguments.
All you care is to win an argument, and clearly not interested in any type of debate..unless you have the last word. Not to mention how patronising and rude and intolerant of other people you are! Putting down other posters makes you feel so important eh? No wonder noone wants to discuss anything with you! And you judge ME!
It is funny how you have to attack my person everytime you cannot adress any of my arguments. It must be very upsetting for you since you can't bring yourself to ignore me.
And Pablo got a mind of his own, you're not his mamma to tell him what to do. You are so ridiculous.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
An ignorant poster wrote:
quote:The Quran itself tells you the BEST HADITH is the hadith of Allah. The Quran itself tells you what hadith do you need after this best hadith. So WHY bother with ANY hadith false or not other than Quran? Quran is the ONLY one that is 100%.
This ignorant poster presuppose that Muhammad prohibited his companions from writing hadith about his life. However, there is absolutely no basis for that claim.
People used to tell stories from the Bible and Muhammad did not like competition, he denigrated the scriptures of previous messengers who he had already acknowledged as true and said they are corrupted, then he said that the Quran is "the best story" (haidth) meaning instead of paying attention to other traditions, listen to me only.
But he never said do not write anything about me and my life. Muhammad was a narcissist. He considered himself to be the center of the universe. He told everyone to emulate him.
As I quoted from the Quran, he claimed to be a “good example to follow” and have “an exalted standard of character” . Muslims cannot possibly follow his examples if they are not recorded.
The examples of Muhammad are not given or supposed to be given by Allah. They were witnessed by his followers. There was no need for Muhammad making his Allah describe him for his followers when they could witness that on their own. On various occasions he made his Allah extol him and talk about him superlatively, but apart from those adulatory pompous bragging there is no mention about his life and his examples in the Quran.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Edit: Don't waste time with vwvwv, it's a posting robot that does neither discuss nor debate. Previously known as Unfinished Thought.
Who is talking to you? You are a posting bullshit in this forum, a bully, and a very manipulative person in your arguments.
All you care is to win an argument, and clearly not interested in any type of debate..unless you have the last word. Not to mention how patronising and rude and intolerant of other people you are! Putting down other posters makes you feel so important eh? No wonder noone wants to discuss anything with you! And you judge ME!
It is funny how you have to attack my person everytime you cannot adress any of my arguments. It must be very upsetting for you since you can't bring yourself to ignore me.
And Pablo got a mind of his own, you're not his mamma to tell him what to do. You are so ridiculous.
UT I CAN ignore you dont worry about that. I have tried in the past to hold discussions with you but as always while I am answering one post you post another 10 copy paste articles.
I do not have the time or the inclination to debate or discuss in that manner.
yes Pablo has a mind of his own, my post was a warning as he is fairly new and has no idea what you are. Of course he is free to try to discuss with you if he so wishes, as is anyone else.
I do not even read your posts anymore, I am only answering this one as it was not a copy paste and came from you your very self. Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) the most tolerant human being came on earth ever. How many he killed in his life?
scholars can be wrong but Quran never wrong. So many scientific errors in Quran and you can google it
India has the biggest Muslim population in the world . Not true, it's Indonesia.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I do not even read your posts anymore
If you were truly ignoring me you wouldn't have to repeat yourself over and over again on how 'you do not read my posts anymore'. Is this how you understand 'ignore'?
If you think that by attacking my person you are discrediting my arguments you are mistaken.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote: Pablo, the prophet followed Quran, so following Quran is what a Muslim should do to follow the prophet. Not follow some لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ
so you dont believe that u have to follow the prophet of GOD PBUH and he was misleading people? u r joking right?
u didnt answer my question yet. r u Muslim sunni?
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
Muhammad made so many claims about being the best of the creation, and a perfect example to follow. How can we verify these self adulating claims? And how are we supposed to follow his examples as Allah asked us to do in the Quran if we are not allowed to read his history or believe it?
Furthermore, how do we know that the Quran preceded the hadiths by centuries? All we have is an undated book. We do not know how and when that book was written, unless we rely on the very hadith that Quran-only Muslims disparage.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote: Pablo, the prophet followed Quran, so following Quran is what a Muslim should do to follow the prophet. Not follow some لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ
so you dont believe that u have to follow the prophet of GOD PBUH and he was misleading people? u r joking right?
I did not say that, please read what I said. Do you think the prophet did NOT follow Quran when Allah told him to? Nowhere did I say the prophet was misleading anyone!
Are you saying that instead of following the Quran Muhammed made up something else to follow?
quote:u didnt answer my question yet. r u Muslim sunni?
I did answer it when it was asked. recheck the posts.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote: Lakum deenukum wa liya deen, Alahmdulillah
that was ur answer. what do u want me to understand then?
the Prophet Mohamed followed Quraan. and tought people its manners.
also Quraan told us to follow the Prophet of God Mohamed. so what u r on about?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote: Lakum deenukum wa liya deen, Alahmdulillah
that was ur answer. what do u want me to understand then?
No that wasn't my answer. My answer was
I am Muslim, the same as all the prophets were. I follow what Muhammed and all those before him followed which is the words of Allah.
quote:the Prophet Mohamed followed Quraan. and tought people its manners.
he taught from Quran, he warned from Quran, he judged rom Quran, he followed nothing but Quran so following Quran IS following the sunnah of Muhammed, it is what he followed and what he taught from.
quote:also Quraan told us to follow the Prophet of God Mohamed. so what u r on about?
And the prophet of God followed Quran, he did not invent anything else, only what was revealed to him in Quran. So why do you look to hadith in what to follow when its all in Quran?
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
The hadiths are not the problem, as the violence of Islam is not limited to the hadith.
There are plenty of violent and intolerant verses in the Quran itself,
take this verse for example:
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
or
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
or
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
or
8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers
Pablo said "only the true hadith i believe in which is matching Quraan." So I want to ask him isn't the hadith that freshsoda posted in sync with the above verses?
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
Also I'd like Pablo to explain how Islam completes Christianity, when in fact contradicts it and replaces it.
Why didn't jesus rouse his followers to fight the unbelievers?
Instead he said love your enemies and pray for them.
Quran: "And fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah" (Qur'an 8:39)
Bible: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44)
The Quran and Bible contradict each other as no other:
Jihad in the way of Allah elevates one's position in Paradise by a hundred fold. (Muslim 4645)
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)
I don't see how Islam possibly fullfills Christianity.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
r u sure this is a robot ayisha?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: r u sure this is a robot ayisha?
yes, a human one. It just posts one after another and no use answering any as there will be another 3 by the time you hit the reply button. As you can see. Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
ok. it seems like stupid robot needs a new soft ware. Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) the most tolerant human being came on earth ever.
Funny, there are numerous stories that come from early Muslim sources that seem eager to portray Muhammad as ordering assassinations, torturing prisoners etc.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: r u sure this is a robot ayisha?
= Let's call her a robot, that way I don't have to answer her question. How very convinient.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
pablo, if vwvwv is a robot then it has a good grasp of basic Christianity and the intricacies thereof. From what it has written on this thread, I cannot imagine what any Muslim could write to honestly contradict it! But then, I'm not Muslim and I realise that out thought patterns are very different when it comes to this sort of discussion. Furthermore, if vwvwv is not a robot and is indeed the former "unfinished thought": welcome back!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: ok. it seems like stupid robot needs a new soft ware.
No it just needs banning again for a few more months. Ignore it, it wont go away though, it keeps on and on and on and on. If you want to see where it all comes from google Ali Sina as its all copy pastes with just the odd word changed.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: r u sure this is a robot ayisha?
yes, a human one. It just posts one after another and no use answering any as there will be another 3 by the time you hit the reply button. As you can see.
Says the woman who can post 100 messages in a single day!! How many posts does she post in the marriage section? Most of them are attacks on other posters of course.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
I don't know about you, but I have never been banned from Egypt Search. Not once.
As for "it wont go away", well don't bet on it, you are repulsive enough to drive away any poster. You make people sick and I am only human.
Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: look shaikhs collected about 60 000 hadith . but we have only 4000 in sahih Bukhari . they wanted to get the true ones in one book which is Sahih Bukhari wa Muslim.
but we have in fiqh. what ever OPPOSITE to Quraan is not true and we dont take it. even if it was hadith collected after the death of our Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) u might find some falsely attributed to the prophet.
i hope we can lighten each other.
So you pick up the sahih hadith same how you pick up Tomato in the market, taking the good one and leaving the bad one, trying to close your eyes that all Tomatos are in one basket and sold by same man.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv: I don't know about you, but I have never been banned from Egypt Search. Not once.
No I have never either, nor have I ever used multiple names.
quote:As for "it wont go away", well don't bet on it, you are repulsive enough to drive away any poster. You make people sick and I am only human.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: pablo, if vwvwv is a robot then it has a good grasp of basic Christianity and the intricacies thereof. From what it has written on this thread, I cannot imagine what any Muslim could write to honestly contradict it! But then, I'm not Muslim and I realise that out thought patterns are very different when it comes to this sort of discussion. Furthermore, if vwvwv is not a robot and is indeed the former "unfinished thought": welcome back!
Thank you Ourluxor. This person always insults and attacks posters when she realises she cannot debunk their arguments.
Have you noticed how she always encourages and applauds posters (i.e Dalia) to post copy and pastes, as long as their content agrees with her views?
She keeps repeating like a parrot that she is ignoring me, yet she mentions my name in every post of hers. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv:
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: pablo, if vwvwv is a robot then it has a good grasp of basic Christianity and the intricacies thereof. From what it has written on this thread, I cannot imagine what any Muslim could write to honestly contradict it! But then, I'm not Muslim and I realise that out thought patterns are very different when it comes to this sort of discussion. Furthermore, if vwvwv is not a robot and is indeed the former "unfinished thought": welcome back!
Thank you Ourluxor. This person always insults and attacks posters when she realises she cannot debunk their arguments.
Have you noticed how she always encourages and applauds posters (i.e Dalia) to post copy and pastes, as long as their content agrees with her views?
She keeps repeating like a parrot that she is ignoring me, yet she mentions my name in every post of hers.
Oh dont talk wet woman! I mentioned your name once! Dalia posts and is able to discuss THAT post and doesn't resort to spamming a thread with post after post as you do. You are UNABLE to discuss or debate.
This is my LAST post to you.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
vwvwv
Don't let Ayisha get you down, She is notorious for insulting and attacking the posters when she can't refute what they say.
All you have to do is ask her why in the Quran it only speaks about what Men will get in Islamic Heaven and her true colors show. Since she can't refute that the Quran speaks about Women and other things that Male Muslims get in Heaven she will Insult you and then run. Another thing that sets her off is when you bring up the age of Ayisha. I refuted a while back a Article she posted that claims Ayisha was not nine when muhammad consumated his marriage with her. I posted a Article that refuted her long article word for word. After reading it she decided that she was too busy "Working" to refute it back. The truth is she could NOT refute it so she went back to her MO of Insults and attacks. Sad really.
All I can say is there is plenty of people who love to read your posts that don't post so keep up the good work and let the Haters Hate.
Peace
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: So you pick up the sahih hadith same how you pick up Tomato in the market, taking the good one and leaving the bad one, trying to close your eyes that all Tomatos are in one basket and sold by same man.
haha freshsoda
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: This is my LAST post to you.
This is your what..your 95th LAST?
I would say 'Amen' but seeing is believing.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Don't gloat vwvwv, it's very unbecoming!
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
What do you mean ourluxor?
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i really dont know what u r talking about? that loads of posts just gott me confused.
if u have any Question or DIGS from any thing u copy and past in here im ready to answer and kick ur arse . i am the door ayisha was talking about hahah.
she told u dont let the door hit ur ass . but i am the door who will kick ur ass Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
Personally I am not interested in kicking anybody's ass, neither I am interested in exchanging insults with you. Just trying to understand your point of view. So here's my question.
You said: "only the true hadith i believe in which is matching Quraan."
I explained to you that the Quran contains plenty of verses that match the hadith that freshsoda posted. Do you agree with that? If not why/explain.
For example the Quran says:
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
"5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"
"8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them"
"Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them"
"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers"
and many more
You also said: Originally posted by pablo_7777: "Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) the most tolerant human being came on earth ever."
I asked you, what about the numerous ahadith that show Muhammad ordering assassinations, torturing prisoners and so on?
On what basis do you deny these hadiths (if you do), I mean, do you have access to a different version of the history of the same events that contradicts all those narrations collected by Bukhari, Muslim etc?
Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
You will not get logic answers vw. only you will get a big basket full with good tomatos on the top while the spoiled ones are hidden. Islam is peace, Mohammed was the most tolerant human being, we love christians, we respect freedom of beliefs. You buy it as a good tomatos, take it to home and then you discover the truth later When you have terrible smell and you found you was being cheated.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Then what is the point in asking the question if you have already decided what the answer will be and your reaction to it?
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
Opsssssssss I think im late. My sister gave a birth ( Mashaa Allah ) day before yesterday that’s why I was with her.
First I want to know in what religion u believe in ? I respect all beliefs. As u knew that im a Muslim so I need to know what is ur religion.
. I hope if I find an open minded person to talk to. I mean VW ayisha..
quote: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
I don’t know whats wrong with this verse . although u used poor translation . But may be because he didn’t find the right word. which shows how poor is ur language.
FIGHTING IS PRESCRIBED: MEDICATION IS PRESCRIBED: I think u wouldnt take medication for cancer unless u have cancer. And after the doctor who knows more than u( PRESCRIBE). So if u don’t have cancer then doctors will not FORCE U AND prescribe that medication for u and that is a kind of mercy other wise u will die . SO CANCER FORCED U TO TAKE MEDICATION. NOT THE DOCTOR.
Second: God didn’t prescribe to fight .
When God saw that the unbeliever hurt Muslims and torture them then God said .
so God didn’t prescribe to fight. but the nonbeliever forced THE MUSLIMS to fight back. And to show u that. fight was not prescribed . that God said ( But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you) that is the medication which tastes horrible which will let u survive.
(كُتِب)By the way PRESCRIBED is not the perfect word for( here the meaning of this verse is that the nonbeliever forced u to fight back and u hate to fight. but u need to fight back Just to survive. The evidence that fighting never been allowed before in Islam. first episode finished Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Opsssssssss I think im late. My sister gave a birth ( Mashaa Allah ) day before yesterday that’s why I was with her.
First I want to know in what religion u believe in ? I respect all beliefs. As u knew that im a Muslim so I need to know what is ur religion.
. I hope if I find an open minded person to talk to. I mean VW ayisha..
quote: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
I don’t know whats wrong with this verse . although u used poor translation . But may be because he didn’t find the right word. which shows how poor is ur language.
FIGHTING IS PRESCRIBED: MEDICATION IS PRESCRIBED: I think u wouldnt take medication for cancer unless u have cancer. And after the doctor who knows more than u( PRESCRIBE). So if u don’t have cancer then doctors will not FORCE U AND prescribe that medication for u and that is a kind of mercy other wise u will die . SO CANCER FORCED U TO TAKE MEDICATION. NOT THE DOCTOR.
Second: God didn’t prescribe to fight .
When God saw that the unbeliever hurt Muslims and torture them then God said .
so God didn’t prescribe to fight. but the nonbeliever forced THE MUSLIMS to fight back. And to show u that. fight was not prescribed . that God said ( But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you) that is the medication which tastes horrible which will let u survive.
(كُتِب)By the way PRESCRIBED is not the perfect word for( here the meaning of this verse is that the nonbeliever forced u to fight back and u hate to fight. but u need to fight back Just to survive. The evidence that fighting never been allowed before in Islam. first episode finished
in DEFENSE are the words you are looking for here pablo.
Mabruk on sister's baby!
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Opsssssssss I think im late. My sister gave a birth ( Mashaa Allah ) day before yesterday that’s why I was with her.
First I want to know in what religion u believe in ? I respect all beliefs. As u knew that im a Muslim so I need to know what is ur religion.
. I hope if I find an open minded person to talk to. I mean VW ayisha..
quote: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
I don’t know whats wrong with this verse . although u used poor translation . But may be because he didn’t find the right word. which shows how poor is ur language.
FIGHTING IS PRESCRIBED: MEDICATION IS PRESCRIBED: I think u wouldnt take medication for cancer unless u have cancer. And after the doctor who knows more than u( PRESCRIBE). So if u don’t have cancer then doctors will not FORCE U AND prescribe that medication for u and that is a kind of mercy other wise u will die . SO CANCER FORCED U TO TAKE MEDICATION. NOT THE DOCTOR.
Second: God didn’t prescribe to fight .
When God saw that the unbeliever hurt Muslims and torture them then God said .
so God didn’t prescribe to fight. but the nonbeliever forced THE MUSLIMS to fight back. And to show u that. fight was not prescribed . that God said ( But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you) that is the medication which tastes horrible which will let u survive.
(كُتِب)By the way PRESCRIBED is not the perfect word for( here the meaning of this verse is that the nonbeliever forced u to fight back and u hate to fight. but u need to fight back Just to survive. The evidence that fighting never been allowed before in Islam. first episode finished
God didn't tell Christians to fight back. He said to turn the other cheek and to love your enemies. A much harder thing to do.
Congratulations on your sisters baby!
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
(كُتِب) is the word i didnt find here.
thank you Ayisha .
Posted by freshsoda (Member # 13226) on :
How much kilo tomato in Egypt today? Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Opsssssssss I think im late. My sister gave a birth ( Mashaa Allah ) day before yesterday that’s why I was with her.
First I want to know in what religion u believe in ? I respect all beliefs. As u knew that im a Muslim so I need to know what is ur religion.
. I hope if I find an open minded person to talk to. I mean VW ayisha..
quote: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
I don’t know whats wrong with this verse . although u used poor translation . But may be because he didn’t find the right word. which shows how poor is ur language.
FIGHTING IS PRESCRIBED: MEDICATION IS PRESCRIBED: I think u wouldnt take medication for cancer unless u have cancer. And after the doctor who knows more than u( PRESCRIBE). So if u don’t have cancer then doctors will not FORCE U AND prescribe that medication for u and that is a kind of mercy other wise u will die . SO CANCER FORCED U TO TAKE MEDICATION. NOT THE DOCTOR.
Second: God didn’t prescribe to fight .
When God saw that the unbeliever hurt Muslims and torture them then God said .
so God didn’t prescribe to fight. but the nonbeliever forced THE MUSLIMS to fight back. And to show u that. fight was not prescribed . that God said ( But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you) that is the medication which tastes horrible which will let u survive.
(كُتِب)By the way PRESCRIBED is not the perfect word for( here the meaning of this verse is that the nonbeliever forced u to fight back and u hate to fight. but u need to fight back Just to survive. The evidence that fighting never been allowed before in Islam. first episode finished
God didn't tell Christians to fight back. He said to turn the other cheek and to love your enemies. A much harder thing to do.
This is after the years of persecution of Christians and burning of witches and God decided the believers should fight back against the pagan oppressors. It shows they WERE turning the other cheek as it clearly says He prescribes a thing they do not LIKE to do, which is to fight.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
FIGHTING IS PRESCRIBED: MEDICATION IS PRESCRIBED: I think u wouldnt take medication for cancer unless u have cancer. And after the doctor who knows more than u( PRESCRIBE). So if u don’t have cancer then doctors will not FORCE U AND prescribe that medication for u and that is a kind of mercy other wise u will die . SO CANCER FORCED U TO TAKE MEDICATION. NOT THE DOCTOR.
Pablo, I am Christian. You said elsewhere that Islam fullfills Christianity. Yet Jesus prescribes a completely different kind of medicine to what Muhammad prescribes.
Instead of fighting Jesus prescribes forgiveness. For Christians forgiveness is the final step towards victory without violence. The important thing to remember is that we forgive as much or as more for our own sakes as for the sakes of those we forgive. Our forgiveness may or may not weaken the hold that evil has on our adversaries, but it will unfailingly offer us protection against that evil spreading into our own hearts. In the normal course of events, evil grows and festers inside people until they lash out and harm others. If those others respond in kind, evil is able to spread and reproduce by growing in the hearts of the victims. If, however, the victims are forgiving, the cycle of evil is disrupted.
When we execute a murderer, we often believe we are destroying evil. The opposite, however, is true. Although we may be killing the person who housed the evil and gave it form, we are providing another home for that same evil in our own hearts and souls. We murder people on behalf of the state, and in so doing we become evils new host.
The only true way to destroy evil is to drive it out with love.
What Jesus is asking to do is neither to approve of horrible things, nor to change our minds about what we consider wrong. Rather, he is instructing us to give up on revenge, to be mindful of our own flaws, and to place everything in Gods hands. What do we do in the face of remorseless, implacable evil? We deny it a place in our own hearts. In the end, who our adversaries are and what they have done to us is irrelevant. We forgive others as much for our own benefit as for theirs.
One question that I was never able to get an answer for is: if Allah wants to kill the unbelievers, why he does not do it himself? It should be easy for him to kill them, maim them, burn them, and strike them with all sorts of disasters and calamities. Why instead he asks his messenger and his zealot devotees to do his dirty work?
Is it perhaps that he is incapable to do it on his own? Or is it that he is no god at all but the figment of Muhammad's mind, a convenient scarecrow that would give the self acclaimed prophet unlimited power to plunder.
Muhammad claimed that the disbelief in Allah was the greatest crime punishable by death. Who benefited from this? He was the only contact between Allah and his followers.
Disobedience to him meant disobedience to God. Would really God's self esteem be hurt if these primates of the Earth did not recognize and praised him? Would he really be so offended that he would burn people eternally? That is an absurd preposition. But it gave Muhammad the same power as God to do anything he wished with no one to question him. He got the cart blanch to kill anyone, to demand his followers to go and fight even their own allies, relatives and friends and bring 20% of the booty to him. It gave him right to sleep with any number of women and choose the youngest and the prettiest of the captive women. The more he exalted Allah the more his power grew. Allah was an excuse that empowered a power hungry man to rise from poverty to absolute dominance and make him even dream of conquering the great kingdoms of Persia and Byzantine.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: so God didn’t prescribe to fight. but the nonbeliever forced THE MUSLIMS to fight back.
How did they do that? You do know that the majority of Muhammad's wars were offensive?
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
The truth is that the Meccans, did not opress Muslims neither drive the Muslims out of their homes.
They emigrated on their own volition and because of Mohammad’s insistence, and Pablo I have the verses to prove it if you like.
The truth is that despite the fact that Muhammad constantly insulted the religion of the Quraish and infuriated them with his abrasive behavior there is not a single incidence of physical violence or persecution against him or his followers recorded in Islamic annals.
Muslims today would not tolerate any criticism against their religion. But Arabs prior to Muhammad were more tolerant. They used to live with the Jews and Christians in harmony without any sign of religious animosity between them. Yet the ultimate test of tolerance came when Muhammad started to taunt their gods. Despite that kind of libeling the Quraish evinced incredible degree of tolerance and although being offended, never harmed Muhammad or any of his cohorts.
Compare this to the treatment of the Baha’is in Iran. Baha’is do not insult Muhammad or his Allah, they do not reject the Imams nor disagree with any part of Quran. All they say is that their messenger is the Promised One of the Muslims. This is nothing compared to Muhammad’s affronts of the beliefs of the people of Quraish. Nevertheless Muslims have not spared any act of atrocity against the Baha’is. They killed many of them, jailed them, tortured them, beat them, denied them of their human rights and treated them with utter inhumanity. None of that was done against Muhammad and his followers in Mecca even though he constantly accosted their gods with showers of taunts and would imprecate their sacred beliefs as if daring them to persecute.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:God didn't tell Christians to fight back. He said to turn the other cheek and to love your enemies. A much harder thing to do.
so dont take medication for cancer.
these following verses are in bible. and i dont believe that Jesus said that, so i think some verses in bible have been distorted.
The "full" quote, according to the New American Standard Bible (NASB) translation of the Bible, reads (Jesus speaking):
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB).
IF U WANT TO READ MORE THAT U CAN OPEN UR BIBLE WHICH ON TH SHELF. OR visit that site.
have a great time reading. Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
I post the verse that describes how Muhammad used to taunt the beliefs of Quraish.
When the Meccans had enough of it and could no more stand Muhammad’s mocking of their deities, a body of their elders repaired to Abu Talib, the uncle of the Prophet and complained:
“This Nephew of thine hath spoken opprobriously of our gods and our religion: and hath abused us as fools, and given out that our forefathers were all astray. Now, avenge us thyself of our adversary; or, (seeing that thou art in the same case with ourselves,) leave him to its that we may take our satisfaction.”
Abu Talib spoke to them softly and assured them he would counsel his nephew to be more deferential. But Muhammad would not change his proceedings. So they went again to Abu Talib in great vexation; and warned him that if he would not restrain his nephew from his offensive conduct, they would have to restrain him themselves. They added thus:
“and now verily we cannot have patience any longer with his abuse of us, our ancestors, and our gods. Wherefore either do thou hold him back from us, or thyself take part with him that the matter may be decided between us.”
And Pablo, this is all that is recorded about the persecution of the Muslims in Mecca. The above is a warning but falls short of issuing a threat. In fact until Abu Talib was alive and even after his death until Muhammad stayed in Mecca no harm was inflicted upon him and nor any of his followers suffered persecution.
The only physical violence reported against a Muslim is the beating of Omar of his own sister who had embraced Islam, which led to his own acceptance. This however cannot be called a real religious persecution but a family violence as Omar was an irritable man with an unpredictable temper who would lose his composure easily and resort to violence. Yet even this hadith may not be true because in another Hadith narrated by Omar himself he describes his story of conversion to Islam differently.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Pablo, did Jesus kill anyone?
No. Instead he said:
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
The sword in the verse you posted is a metaphore. It indicates that following Jesus may not bring peace to a family, but may "split" it up. We can not say the same about Muhammad's sword, because of his life and his actions.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i told u that i dont believe that he did or even say.
but i believe that the bible in ur hand now is distorted . u have to get rid of it now.
JOHN BERNARD SHOW said that the bible u have now is the most dangerous book has been written in the world. its not me who said that.
i believe in Jesus and his True holy book. not the distorted one.
can u tell me. what was the religion of Qureesh?
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: so dont take medication for cancer.
By cancer you mean disbelief? Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
by the way i dont read all what u write. its too much . u write so fast is it a 100 miles per hour?
i think also that u didnt read any ting at that site i just gave u .
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: so dont take medication for cancer.
By cancer you mean disbelief?
dont twist what i said. i said medication for cancer. i never call u names cos u have a different beliefs.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: can u tell me. what was the religion of Qureesh?
Pablo, prior to Islam, Arabia was what we'd call today a multi-cultural soiciety. They believed in many Gods, so they were Polytheists. Pagan and polytheistic religions are naturally more tolerant of others' beliefs.
Same with Arabia. Prior to Islam, Arabs were tolerant people. Religious animosity was unheard of. People fought over honor or other silly things, much like everywhere else but never over religion.
In fact they had specific months of the year that they regarded as sacred and never fought in those months. Even the thieves and highway rubbers respected the lives of people in those sacred months. Despite their differences all the Arabs gathered together and worshipped their gods. No one disparaged another person's deity.
They allowed anyone to preach their faith including Muhammad. They intermarried with Jews and Christians and never thought people are najis (filthy, impure, untouchable) for what they believe. Women were respected. They could travel alone. They could own and run their own businesses as in the case of Khadijah, they could even lead an army as in the case of Aisha. Khadijah, prior to marring Muhammad was a businesswomen who had made a fortune running her own trading business and who had many men at her service. Can women succeed in any Islamic country the way Khadijah succeeded in a pagan society? Was there a single woman after Khadijah in any Islamic country during these 1400 years that has rivaled her success? I guess not.
But gradually, as the teachings of Muhammad started to sink, the newer generations thought these practices belonged to the jahiliyah (the age of ignorance) and abandoned them. Arabs were cultured and their society was a much more humanistic one than what it became after Muhammad.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
look. if i want to find digs and snap it . make sure i will find it. if u r arguing and debating for the sake of arguing so please stop bothering ur self and bugging me.
if u really trying to find the truth . so we can talk and discuss. but if u want only to find digs to snap and get the meaning of Quraan and hadith out of its context. please save ur energy.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
By cancer you mean disbelief? [/qb][/QUOTE]dont twist what i said. i said medication for cancer. i never call u names cos u have a different beliefs. [/qb][/QUOTE]
Tell me what you mean then.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
pablo_7777
When you say the Bible was corrupted, Who did this? When did this corruption take place and why.
Peace
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
u still dodnt tell me what was the religion of Qureesh. but any way they were pagan . worshiping any thing and everything like stone, statues, . even they were making their gods from dates to eat it afterwords. they showed no respect even to their gods.
if u have any bad idea about how bad ISLAM treat women. so u r wrong.
dont judge ISLAM and QURAAN with what people do now a days.
read Quraan and understand it well then u can judge what u read. but please u have to understand it well and dont read it to find digs. i dont want to know what will be the result but it is only for ur self.
women i know do everything. they drive and study, go abroad to study, work.
they r equal in islam.
if there are some Muslims treat them as they r not equal so it is the fault of people themselves not the fault of ISLAM.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: if u really trying to find the truth . so we can talk and discuss.
I want to find the truth. But to convince me you will have to back up your arguments with evidence.
I don't think you are interested in backing up your statements, you just want to accept Islam without questioning.
I just find it strange when someone claims Islam is the most tolerant religion on earth, when all evidence suggest otherwise.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv: By cancer you mean disbelief?
dont twist what i said. i said medication for cancer. i never call u names cos u have a different beliefs. [/qb][/QUOTE]
Tell me what you mean then. [/QB][/QUOTE]
i mean we use medication for cancer to survive.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
Fine Pablo, let's agree to disagree.
Don't take it personally though. I don't mean to insult you as a person or your culture. I just find Islam false. I hope you are able to differentiate these two.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
pablo_7777
So I take it Pablo you can't backup your ideas about the Bible?
Peace
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: pablo_7777
When you say the Bible was corrupted, Who did this? When did this corruption take place and why.
Peace
Quran says this. Quran comes from God. End of the story.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i think i gave u the evidence which shows that Islam is the most tolerant religion on earth.
tell me. have u ever question the bible? i think no.
but believe me i asked lots of questions and always find the answer which convince me and make me satisfied.
i say thank God im a Muslim.
do u think if islam is violent i would be a Muslim?
just open ur mind and ur heart and understand the meaning of Islam.
by the way it is not very far from Christianity. but the distorted versos in bible make every one in doubt.
i wanna give u an example.
every on has his own interests . i like driving or reading or swimming or drinking or parting or or or..........
do u think i have to find the religion which suites me even if it was wrong ?
or to find the true words which might meet my interests or not and follow it?
i think every one rejecting islam is because u r not allowed to drink or have sex before u get married.
people dont find it right for them . and they never thought if what they do is right or wrong. all what they want is do anything whenever they want even if it was wrong.
for me its completely different coz i want to find the right thing to do.
i dont need to find a religion suites me but the most important is what i do suite the religion which i believe it is right. if yes so i feel really happy and satisfied
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i think i showed u the evidence but i think u didnt bother to read it KING.
do u think ur God is a liar?
quote: (He said to turn the other cheek and to love your enemies)
quote:
(The "full" quote, according to the New American Standard Bible (NASB) translation of the Bible, reads (Jesus speaking):
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB).)
quote:
can u tell me which one of these 2 vrsos is right?
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
The question is that if really God is displeased from anyone can't he punish him and why he needs one of his creatures tell him what to do? If there is an injustice done, shouldn't God be the judge? Who are we to tell God what are his duties?
Why non of Muhammad's enemies suffered any harm until he actually went and destroyed them physically?
Btw, in nowhere the humanist say that "oppression in the name of national security is acceptable". Oppression under no pretext is acceptable by the chapter of human rights. However, Oppression in the name of Islam is acceptable.
When Muhammad orders
Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191) this is oppression. When he asks them to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123) or slay them (Q. 9: 5) and fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) just because they want to have the freedom of belief this is oppression. When he asks the Jews and Christians to accept Islam or pay Jaziyah feeling subdued and humiliated (Q. 9: 29) and taxes them up to 50% of their income as he did in Kheibar, this is oppression. When Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam will be accepted (Q. 3: 85) this is oppression. When he call the non-believers najis (impure untouchable) (Q. 9: 28) and says they will go to hell (Q. 5: 11), this is oppression. When Muhammad orders his followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193), it is oppression. When it causes hate of the non-Muslims by telling stupid stories that they will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17) this is oppression. When he asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that “they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter” (Q.5: 34) this is oppression. When he uses fear mongering by tales like “As for the disbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods” (Q. 22: 9) this is oppression. When Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28), this is oppression. When it asks the Muslims to “strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9) this is oppression. When Muhammad demands his follower to “strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Q. 47: 4) this is oppression. When he says women are inferior to men and they are deficient in intelligence, and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34) this is oppression. When he says that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10) and maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228), it is oppression. when he denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), and regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282) this is oppression. This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Polygamy and polyamory with the slave grills and women captured in wars (Q. 4:3) is rape and oppression. The whole Islam is oppression.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i think i gave u the evidence which shows that Islam is the most tolerant religion on earth.
tell me. have u ever question the bible? i think no.
Of course i do. I have many questionmarks about the Bible,
I just like what Jesus stands for.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
what u wrote is too much for me to read quickly. but u really got the meaning out of its context.
i will talk about the first verse u wrote here.
quote: When Muhammad orders
Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191)
i think u read (Q.2:191) and took it out of its context. if u read ( Q.2:190 )Fight in the cause of Allah THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
please read Quraan and dont get it out of its context.
what is the harm when it says fight those who fight u?
please be careful when u get evidences.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
FIGHTING IS PRESCRIBED: MEDICATION IS PRESCRIBED: I think u wouldnt take medication for cancer unless u have cancer. And after the doctor who knows more than u( PRESCRIBE). So if u don’t have cancer then doctors will not FORCE U AND prescribe that medication for u and that is a kind of mercy other wise u will die . SO CANCER FORCED U TO TAKE MEDICATION. NOT THE DOCTOR.
Pablo, I am Christian. You said elsewhere that Islam fullfills Christianity. Yet Jesus prescribes a completely different kind of medicine to what Muhammad prescribes.
Instead of fighting Jesus prescribes forgiveness. For Christians forgiveness is the final step towards victory without violence. The important thing to remember is that we forgive as much or as more for our own sakes as for the sakes of those we forgive. Our forgiveness may or may not weaken the hold that evil has on our adversaries, but it will unfailingly offer us protection against that evil spreading into our own hearts. In the normal course of events, evil grows and festers inside people until they lash out and harm others. If those others respond in kind, evil is able to spread and reproduce by growing in the hearts of the victims. If, however, the victims are forgiving, the cycle of evil is disrupted.
When we execute a murderer, we often believe we are destroying evil. The opposite, however, is true. Although we may be killing the person who housed the evil and gave it form, we are providing another home for that same evil in our own hearts and souls. We murder people on behalf of the state, and in so doing we become evils new host.
The only true way to destroy evil is to drive it out with love.
What Jesus is asking to do is neither to approve of horrible things, nor to change our minds about what we consider wrong. Rather, he is instructing us to give up on revenge, to be mindful of our own flaws, and to place everything in Gods hands. What do we do in the face of remorseless, implacable evil? We deny it a place in our own hearts. In the end, who our adversaries are and what they have done to us is irrelevant. We forgive others as much for our own benefit as for theirs.
One question that I was never able to get an answer for is: if Allah wants to kill the unbelievers, why he does not do it himself? It should be easy for him to kill them, maim them, burn them, and strike them with all sorts of disasters and calamities. Why instead he asks his messenger and his zealot devotees to do his dirty work?
Is it perhaps that he is incapable to do it on his own? Or is it that he is no god at all but the figment of Muhammad's mind, a convenient scarecrow that would give the self acclaimed prophet unlimited power to plunder.
Muhammad claimed that the disbelief in Allah was the greatest crime punishable by death. Who benefited from this? He was the only contact between Allah and his followers.
Disobedience to him meant disobedience to God. Would really God's self esteem be hurt if these primates of the Earth did not recognize and praised him? Would he really be so offended that he would burn people eternally? That is an absurd preposition. But it gave Muhammad the same power as God to do anything he wished with no one to question him. He got the cart blanch to kill anyone, to demand his followers to go and fight even their own allies, relatives and friends and bring 20% of the booty to him. It gave him right to sleep with any number of women and choose the youngest and the prettiest of the captive women. The more he exalted Allah the more his power grew. Allah was an excuse that empowered a power hungry man to rise from poverty to absolute dominance and make him even dream of conquering the great kingdoms of Persia and Byzantine.
Excellent post vw!
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i say thank God im a Muslim.
do u think if islam is violent i would be a Muslim?
just open ur mind and ur heart and understand the meaning of Islam.
There are many Muslims that idealize Islam, and obviously you are one of them. They only chose to follow the good parts of Islam. But what we discuss here is whether Quran is divine or not. Again, this forum is about religion and we scrutiny and judge all religions. Judging by its ambiguous message and his Prophet it is obvious that it is not from God.
Quran preach both good and bad things. The good things is believe in one God, inner peace, the security you feel etc. I can see that. The bad part is the hidden agenda of its founder and the fact that many times instead of guiding people, it misguides them. Sometimes it is good when someone else criticizes our religion, because more often than not we do not realize that some bad practises of our culture stem from religious beliefs..
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
we discuss here is whether Quran is divine or not. Again, this forum is about religion and we scrutiny and judge all religions
ofcourse Quraan is divine. the true word of God which never been distorted and will never be distorted.
u just stated
quote: The good things is believe in one God, inner peace, the security you feel etc. I can see that.
Islam doesnt have any hidden AGENDA. just read Quraan and whatever there is the Islamic Agenda. and Quraan is not hidden from any one.
so Islam doesnt have any hidden agenda. Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote:God didn't tell Christians to fight back. He said to turn the other cheek and to love your enemies. A much harder thing to do.
so dont take medication for cancer.
these following verses are in bible. and i dont believe that Jesus said that, so i think some verses in bible have been distorted.
The "full" quote, according to the New American Standard Bible (NASB) translation of the Bible, reads (Jesus speaking):
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB).
IF U WANT TO READ MORE THAT U CAN OPEN UR BIBLE WHICH ON TH SHELF. OR visit that site.
Pablo, We know these. The Bible is full of parables. It talks about the word of God as the sword. If Jesus wanted us to use a literal sword don't you think that he would give some examples of this.
quote: Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i think i gave u the evidence which shows that Islam is the most tolerant religion on earth.
tell me. have u ever question the bible? i think no.
I have questioned, both the Bible and the deity of Jesus. Everyone should question. Only those who want the truth are willing to question. Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:O
Pablo, We know these. The Bible is full of parables. It talks about the word of God as the sword. If Jesus wanted us to use a literal sword don't you think that he would give some examples of this.
quote: Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
[/QB]
sword or word? u cant distort it any more .
if he wanted to say word of God he would have said word of God.
i think God is never Wrong, what do u think? Oro
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Pablo, A parable is a story that that has a hidden meaning, typically a moral one. Like a symbol. It's not a distortion.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:
[/QUOTE]The "full" quote, according to the New American Standard Bible (NASB) translation of the Bible, reads (Jesus speaking):
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB
quote: [QUOTE]
any way i didnt ever say Jesus said that. i cant believ that Jesus (PBUH)would say that.
so what u said that jesus never use the sword that means he never said sowrd.
from here u can recognize that BIBLE has been distorted . so it is not divine.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: what is the harm when it says fight those who fight u?
As Mahatma Ghandi said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
Self-defense or not it doesn't matter. It isn't the job of a representative of God to prescribe fighting in self defense. Self defense is a natural instict, you don't need Muhammad to tell you that. Are you telling me that before Islam, people did not fight in self-defense? Sp what's new?
Muhammad said nothing new. Jesus realised what a powerful weapon love and forgiveness is. More powerful and persuasive than the strongest weapons. It removes fear.
It is important to note however, that “those who wage war against Allah and his messenger” is referred to those who do not accept Muhammad’s claim to prophethood. The “enemies” of Islam are not necessarily those who take arm against Muslims. Any person who resists the invitation to accept Islam is an enemy and is waging war against Allah and his messenger and should receive punishment. For example people like me who have never hurt a single Muslim nor intend to do so but am using my laptop to expose Islam are considered as “waging war against Allah and his Messenger”.
Do you agree that people should be executed, crucified, their hands and feet chopped from opposite sides because they decide to leave Islam after finding it a false doctrine? Muslims should fight against such people. But if they come to Islam and repent then they can be forgiven. In Iran hundreds of Bahais were given this chance to come to Islam and recant and repent from being Bahais. Since they did not oblige they were tortured and executed. Though this may seem to you justice, in reality it is the acme of injustice.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: so what u said that jesus never use the sword that means he never said sowrd.
He did use the word sword, as a metaphore. Jesus used metaphors and parables a lot to get his point across.
Early Christians never waged a holy war on pagans who refused to convert or on civil authorities who persecuted them. They did not assassinate any opponent for any reason whatsoever, even for composing insult poetry. All of this, in contrast, Muhammad and his followers did, and the historical evidence on this is firm and full.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv: [QUOTE] Do you agree that people should be executed, crucified, their hands and feet chopped from opposite sides because they decide to leave Islam after finding it a false doctrine? Muslims should fight against such people. But if they come to Islam and repent then they can be forgiven. In Iran hundreds of Bahais were given this chance to come to Islam and recant and repent from being Bahais. Since they did not oblige they were tortured and executed. Though this may seem to you justice, in reality it is the acme of injustice.
again u taking the meaning out of its context.
i really have no time for people ignoring the facts and keep getting the meaning of words out of its context.
stop repeating urself.
Usama bin laden made by the biggest christian country in the world USA to make troubles in Russia before they divide it to small republics. and now every time al Qaeda do some thing u say Muslims are terrorists although al Qaeda has been made by the USA. that shows how much u r tolerant.
when GEORGE W BUSH said said it will be a crusade expedition to Iraq and middle east. that was ur tolerant.
please stop lying. even the word sword u wanted to make it word. when it is clearly Sword and u can understand it from what came after.
lie after lie after lie. please thats enough
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
"and now every time al Qaeda do some thing u say Muslims are terrorists although al Qaeda has been made by the USA."
where did I mention al Qaeda?
"again u taking the meaning out of its context."
Does one become a liar by quoting verses of the Quran?
"5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"
how am I taking this verse 'out of context'?
Do you honestly believe that God would say such a thing under any context? I can imagine Satan saying this, but God?
As regards to Osama bin Laden, he was able to justify his terrorism because he could find verses in the Quran that justified his crime. Far from being a clear book the Quran is replete with contradicting messages. That is why Muslims can find anything they want in the Quran and interpret it in any way they wish. Osama Bin Laden can find verses that justify his crimes and you can find verses to portray Islam as a tolerant religion. Thus far from being a book of guidance, the Quran misguides people. Muslims will do much better if they stop following this book of confusion and rely on their own intelligence to find their way, just like other people do.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
I'd like to quote Ali Sina's thoughts on God.
Those who do not believe in the God of Islam do not do it out of egotism and arrogance as Muhammad wrongly concluded, but because they do not find such notion logical.
Killing is the expertise of animals and reasoning is the skill of humans. Any ferocious beast can kill. That is what they do for living. What distinguishes humans from animals is their rational faculty. Animals are not endowed with rational faculty. They can’t win through logics. They have no understanding of it. All they know is force and violence. As far as animals are concerned, might is right. Humans are the only species that have developed rational faculty. They use reason to distinguish right from wrong and win over their opponents. Animals use violence or as you call it, qital.
I gave the example of me pointing a gun at your head demanding to accept my wrong point of view. If you want to live you have no choice but to agree with me, at least outwardly, even though inwardly you don’t. In this way the disagreement disappears and “peace” is restored (the Islamic way). But is what we believe true? Certainly not! Truth cannot be established by force. It must be established through reasoning.
If a religion is from God it cannot go against reason. The rays of sun are parallel. Why? It is because they emanate from the same source. They never cross each other. If both religion and reason are from God they should not cross each other either. If they do, it means that they come from different sources.
If God does not have to explain his actions and act irrationally how can we know he is God? There have been many false pretenders claiming to be messengers of God. There are many loonies who have made such claim and there has not been dearth of fools who have believed in them and even have given their lives for them. Read the story of cults. Cultists commit murder and suicide for their beliefs. They have faith, but is their faith true?
A real God would never play pranks with humans. A real God is not a deceiver. God is almighty and powerful. If you are all powerful you don’t deceive. You resort to deception when you have no power. I deceived you people coming to your site pretending to be a fellow Muslim. Why I did that? It is because in your site I have no power and no rights. You do not allow freedom of speech and my messages will be deleted as soon as I post them. So to make my message reach your deaf ears I had to deceive you. I had to lie in order to be read. If I had the right to say whatever I want freely, there was no need for me to deceive. Anyone can come to our forum and say whatever they want and they will not be censored. So why should anyone try to deceive us when they can say anything freely? It is powerlessness that forces people to resort to deception.
Why would an almighty God need to deceive his creatures? It makes no sense. The verse 3:54 "God is the Best Deciever" in the Quran is a giveaway. It shows that Allah is not God. It is not godly for God to deceive his own creatures. He is powerful and his creatures are helpless in front of him. Why a powerful being would need to deceive his helpless creatures? What would you say of the mental state of a parent who deceives his children? Muhammad attributes the qualities of Satan, who is a deceiver, to God.
God is the best in all virtues and not in all the vices. You can’t say God is the best liar, the best cheater, the best thief, the best murderer, the best con artist, the best idiot or the best deceiver. The verse 3:54 is blasphemy. Why would an all powerful God want to deceive, is something that only Muhammad can think of. Certainly, might and deception are oxymoronic. A God that resorts to deception, can't be almighty. The entire career of Muhammad was filled with deception, manipulations and tricks.
Where is the proof of Muhammad’s claim? Where is the proof that his Allah is the real God? Believing in him is stupid, but no one will punish you for being a fool. However, if you start killing innocent people because he said you should, then you are guilty. No real God would punish humans for foolishness. I don’t think Muslims or the followers of any religion will be punished for what they believe even if they believe is lies. After all, God knows that we are ignorant and overlooks our mistakes.
Will you punish a two year child if he kicks you or makes rude faces? Of course not! You would be insane if you do. You would hug him, kiss him and tell him he should not behave in this way. You won’t get offended by a child and would not burn him for what he does to you. Isn’t the difference between you and God infinitely bigger than the difference between you and the child? So how can an infinitely great God become offended by us insignificant humans and punish us in such a sadistic way that Muhammad has described, for eternity? This description belittles God. Muhammad’s god is a despot like Saddam Hussein, who liked to be praised and was offended by those who disrespected him and punished them. Attributing these insanities to God is blasphemy.
God will forgive your ignorance. What he won’t forgive is your crimes. If you kill other humans then you won’t be forgiven because forgiving you would be injustice to your victims.
It is foolish to say the scholars of Islam do not answer me because they don’t think I am important. I am not seeking importance. This movement is not about me. Everyone knows that the reason the scholars of Islam shy away from us is because they know they do not stand a chance. They are often demolished in the first round of the debate. It is their image and reputation that they try to save. It is not that we are supper smart. I talk about myself. I am an ordinary person and despite the claims of my opponents, no more intelligent than the average Joe. I am winning all my debates, not because I am smarter than my opponents or have more knowledge, but because I speak the truth. When you speak the truth you win always
You are afraid of words. I am not using guns and explosives. I am not threatening to behead anyone. All I have in my arsenal are words. Words that speak the truth and you are afraid of them. You are like a vampire who is afraid of light. The very fact that Muhammad did not enter in any dialogue with his opponents and instead of reasoning and logical arguments insulted them called them blind, deaf, and dumb, is proof that he was a liar. He avoided their questions and never provided an answer. Instead he said: "As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe" (Q.2.6)
The very fact that he resorted to violence is proof that he was not telling the truth. Were his deeds divine? That man assassinated his critics. He robbed people in the middle of the night. Are these actions divine? How much foolishness is enough? Look how much wealth he accumulated in just ten years. He was poor when he came to Medina. He did not have enough food. In just few years he became the wealthiest man in Arabia. It was all stolen money. It was all loot gained by destroying lives.
You wrote: “Those who are on the right path don’t make fun of the things don’t abuse personalities.”
If your maxim holds any truth, tell me why Muhammad maligned everyone else? Did he show any respect for the religion of the Quraish? Didn’t he desecrate their temple and burn their gods? That was their belief. They held it sacrosanct. To them that was truth. If he had the right to do what he did because in his view they were wrong, then we have the right to tell the truth about Muhammad and expose his lies because in our view he was an impostor.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Excellent post vw!
yes great copy paste from varius sites there Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
So much for ignoring me
Ridiculous woman go find someone else to stalk!!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv: So much for ignoring me
Ridiculous woman go find someone else to stalk!!
the reply was to doro, not you.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: JOHN BERNARD SHOW
George Bernard Shaw.
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda:
How much kilo tomato in Egypt today?
8 LE in Maadi, 3 LE in Saad Zaghloul. Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
hey Ayisha . Dont bother with such woman.
she cant believe that i answered all these questions and also showed her that she got it out of its context.
she might has the time to repeat herself . but im not going to repeat my self.
she can reread all the posts i added in here.
have a good day every one . im not going to bother with people dont understand what i say. BYE Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Excellent post vw!
yes great copy paste from varius sites there
she just copy and past without reading what is she copying .
thats really .
u know AYISHA she reminds me with some one was talking to one his friend saying. I DONT LIKE MY WIFE being angry with me. so that friend went to his wife and told her ur HUSBAND DOESNT LIKE U and he said that to me.
that is really ridiculous.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
Hey Pablo, I've been nice to you, nevertheless you have to resort to insults so typical of Muslims when they lose an argument. I don't know what I am posting eh? You who posted the most irrelevant things that had nothing to do with my question. Honestly you look like a retard to me, how is it possible to argue with someone like you? Like a wise man said: "never argue with an idiot..they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience". Your stupidity is indeed unbeatable and your ignorance shines through.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i didnt lose this debate VW. that u did lose it.
u look like very polite woman. u see i will not judge Christianity coz a mistake u did.
and u r not the person who is going to judge this debate coz obviously u will say that i lost.
childish mentality hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
okay child dont cry i lost hahahahahahaha are u happy now?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv: Hey Pablo, I've been nice to you, nevertheless you have to resort to insults so typical of Muslims when they lose an argument. I don't know what I am posting eh? You who posted the most irrelevant things that had nothing to do with my question. Honestly you look like a retard to me, how is it possible to argue with someone like you? Like a wise man said: "never argue with an idiot..they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience". Your stupidity is indeed unbeatable and your ignorance shines through.
resorting to insults is typical of who? Where did pablo insult you in this manner?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: so what u said that jesus never use the sword that means he never said sowrd.
He did use the word sword, as a metaphore. Jesus used metaphors and parables a lot to get his point across.
Early Christians never waged a holy war on pagans who refused to convert or on civil authorities who persecuted them. They did not assassinate any opponent for any reason whatsoever, even for composing insult poetry. All of this, in contrast, Muhammad and his followers did, and the historical evidence on this is firm and full.
Examples of the destruction of pagan temples in the late fourth century, as recorded in surviving texts, describes Martin of Tours' attacks on holy sites in Gaul [27], the destruction of temples in Syria by Marcellus[28] the destruction of temples and images in, and surrounding, Carthage,[29] the Patriarch Theophilus who seized and destroyed pagan temples in Alexandria,[30] the levelling of all the temples in Gaza and the wider destruction of holy sites that spread rapidly throughout Egypt.[29] This is supplemented in abundance by archaeological evidence in the northern provinces (for which written sources hardly survive) exposing broken and burnt out buildings and hastily buried objects of piety.[29]
The leader of the Egyptian monks who participated in the sack of temples replied to the victims who demanded back their sacred icons: "I peacefully removed your gods...there is no such thing as robbery for those who truly possess Christ.[29]
At the turn of the century St Augustine would exhort his congregation in Carthage to smash all tangible symbols of paganism they could lay their hands on "for that all superstition of pagans and heathens should be annihilated is what God wants, God commands, God proclaims!" – words uttered to wild applause, and possibly the cause of religious riots resulting in sixty deaths. It is estimated that pagans still made up half of the Empire's population.[31][29]
Sins punishable by death [edit] Blasphemy
Blasphemy against God and the Church was a crime punishable by death in much of Europe. 18 year old Thomas Aikenhead was the last person to be executed in Britain for the crime of blasphemy in 1697. He was prosecuted for saying on a cold Edinburgh night, "I wish I were in that place Ezra calls hell so I could warm myself." George Rosie wrote in the newspaper The Scotsman, "The killing of Thomas Aikenhead, like the hounding of Salman Rushdie for the same 'offence,' was a disgrace. . . a prime example of a God-fixated state killing a man in an attempt to stop the spread of an idea."[32] John William Gott was the last man to be convicted of the crime of blasphemy in Britain in 1921, being sentenced to imprisonment with 9 months hard labour for writing pamphlets that described, amongst other things, Jesus Christ entering Jerusalem as 'like a circus clown on the back of two donkeys'.[33] [edit] Homosexuality
European Christian scholars have historically argued that the crime of homosexuality should be punishable by death, based upon passages in the Bible.[34] Canon law called for capital punishment for homosexuality based on the findings of Christian legal scholars: "Bishop Wala, the leading churchman of the Frankish kingdom, convened the Council at Paris... the council explicitly endorsed the death penalty for sodomy. Moreover, Canon 34 not only endorsed Leviticus but also interpreted Paul's Epistle to the Romans as advocating capital punishment.... Paul accuses non-believers of a long list of sins, in which homosexuality is given a special prominence. Then he adds that the 'judgement of God' makes such sinners 'worthy of death.'"[34] Saint Thomas argued that homosexuality, even between consenting adults, was immoral and an offence of heresy against God, and therefore punishable by death (as heresy was).[35]
Suppression of heresies Main articles: Christian debate on persecution and toleration, Christian heresy, and List of Christian heresies
One of the roles of bishops, and the purpose of many Christian writings, was to refute heresies. The New Testament itself speaks of the importance of maintaining orthodox doctrine and refuting incorrect teachings, showing the antiquity of the concern.[36]
During those first three centuries, Christianity was effectively outlawed by requirements to venerate the Roman emperor and Roman gods. Consequently, when the Church labeled its enemies as heretics and cast them out of its congregations or severed ties with dissident churches, it remained without the power to persecute them.
Before 313 AD, the "heretical" nature of some beliefs was a matter of much debate within the churches, and there was no true mechanism in place to resolve the various differences of beliefs. It was only after the legalisation of Christianity, which began under Constantine I in 313 AD that the various beliefs of the Church began to be made uniform and formulated as dogma through the canons promulgated by the General Councils. Each phrase in the Nicene Creed, which was hammered out at the Council of Nicaea, addresses some aspect that had been under passionate discussion prior to Constantine I, and closes the books on the argument, with the weight of the agreement of the over 300 bishops, as well as Constantine I in attendance. [Constantine had invited all 1800 bishops of the Christian church (about 1000 in the east and 800 in the west). The number of participating bishops cannot be accurately stated; Socrates Scholasticus and Epiphanius of Salamis counted 318; Eusebius of Caesarea, only 250.] In spite of the agreement reached at the council of 325, the Arians, who had been defeated, dominated most of the church for the greater part of the fourth century, often with the aid of Roman emperors who favored them.
Irenaeus (c. 130–202) was the first to argue that his "orthodox" position was the same faith that Jesus gave to theapostles, and that the identity of the apostles, their successors, and the teachings of the same were all well-known public knowledge. This was therefore an early argument supported by apostolic succession. Irenaeus first established the doctrine of four gospels and no more, with the synoptic gospels interpreted in the light of John. Irenaeus' opponents, however, claimed to have received secret teachings from Jesus via other apostles which were not publicly known. Gnosticism is predicated on the existence of such hidden knowledge, but brief references to private teachings of Jesus have also survived in the canonic Scripture as did warning by the Christ that there would be false prophets or false teachers. Irenaeus' opponents also claimed that the wellsprings of divine inspiration were not dried up, which is the doctrine ofcontinuing revelation.
The first known usage of the term 'heresy' in a civil legal context was in 380 AD by the "Edict of Thessalonica" of Theodosius I. Prior to the issuance of this edict, the Church had no state sponsored support for any particular legal mechanism to counter what it perceived as 'heresy'. By this edict, in some senses, the line between the Catholic Church's spiritual authority and the Roman State's jurisdiction was blurred. One of the outcomes of this blurring of Church and State was a sharing of State powers of legal enforcement between Church and State authorities. At its most extreme reach, this new legal backing of the Church gave its leaders the power to, in effect, pronounce the death sentence upon those whom they might perceive to be 'heretics'. Within 5 years of the official 'criminalization' of heresy by the emperor, the first Christian heretic, Priscillian was executed in 385 by Roman officials. For some years after the Protestant Reformation, Protestant denominations were also known to execute those whom they considered as heretics, witness the Salem witch trials. The last known heretic executed by sentence of the Roman Catholic Church was Cayetano Ripoll in 1826. The number of people executed as heretics under the authority of the various 'church authorities' is not known, however it most certainly numbers into the several thousands.
Christian theologians like Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas had legitimized religious persecution to various extents and, during the Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, Christians considered heresy and dissent to be punishable offences. However, Early modern Europe witnessed the turning point in the Christian debate on persecution and toleration. Christian writers like John Milton and John Locke argued for limited religious toleration, and later authors like Thomas Jefferson developed the concept of religious freedom. Christians nowadays generally accept that heresy and dissent are not punishable by a civil authority. Many Christians "look back on the centuries of persecution with a mixture of revulsion and incomprehension."[37] [edit] Albigensian Crusade Main article: Albigensian Crusade
Jonathan Barker cited the Albigensian Crusade, launched by Pope Innocent III against followers of Catharism, as an example of Christian state terrorism.[38] The 20 year war led to an estimated 1 million casualties.[39] [edit] Inquisition Main article: Inquisition
Christian leaders and Christian doctrines have been accused of justifying and perpetrating violence during the Inquisition.[40] A legal basis for some inquisitorial activity came from Pope Innocent IV's papal bull Ad exstirpanda of 1252, which authorized and regulated the use of torture in investigating heresy. The inquisition expanded in size and scope following the twelfth century in response to the Church's fears that heretics were exerting improper and harmful influence on members of the church. The inquisition was initially used by the church to help it identify persons that were heretics. Later, the Church expanded the inquisition to include torture as a way to determine the guilt of suspected heretics.[41]
The Spanish Inquisition was a tribunal established in 1478. The Spanish Inquisition was originally intended in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave. Although the Inquisition was technically forbidden from permanently harming or drawing blood, this still allowed for methods of torture.[42] [edit] Witch hunts
The European witch-hunt craze dates from around 1468 when the Papacy first declared witchcraft a "crimen exceptum". Dominican inquisitors who specialised in witch-craft compiled a dossier of confessions obtained under torture in 1484 that persuaded Innocent VIII to issue the bull 'Summis desiderantes affectibus', which granted them enlarged powers. Two years later they issued “Malleus Maleficarum” the “great witch-encyclopedia” and international "best-seller" which was used as a handbook by Roman Catholics and Protestants. The techniques described in the book included placing incriminating words into the mouths of the victim and forcing them to repeat them under torture. The scriptural basis for killing witches used by Protestants was taken from Exodus 22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”. Both Calvin and Luther supported the execution of witches but in general it was the Calvinists who were the most zealous and fierce in this work. The Jesuits became the most noted popularisers of the the witch-hunts on the Roman Catholic side of the sectarian divide. [43] It has been estimated that between 40,000 and perhaps up to 200,000 people were killed between 1500-1700. The majority were women, subjected first to torture in order to confess and then burned to death or hanged in public. [44]
European wars of religion Main article: European wars of religion The Battle of the White Mountain in Bohemia (1620)—one of the decisive battles of the Thirty Years War
Following the onset of the Protestant Reformation, a series of wars were waged in Europe starting circa 1524 and continuing intermittently until 1648. Although sometimes unconnected, all of these wars were strongly influenced by the religious change of the period, and the conflict and rivalry that it produced. According to Miroslav Volf, the European wars of religion were a major factor behind the "emergence of secularizing modernity".
In the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre followers of the Roman Catholic Church killed up to 100,000 Huguenots (French Protestants) in mob violence. The massacres were carried out on the national day celebrating Bartholomew the Apostle. Pope Gregory XIII sent the leader of the massacres a Golden Rose, and said that the massacres "gave him more pleasure than fifty Battles of Lepanto, and he commissioned Vasari to paint frescoes of it in the Vatican".[45] The killings have been called "the worst of the century's religious massacres",[46] and led to the start of the fourth war of the French Wars of Religion.
Alan Dershowitz and other analysts assert that Christian leaders relied on Christian doctrines to justify the Crusades.[47]
The Crusades pitted Roman Catholics against Muslims. As recounted by many sources, when Jerusalem fell the first time, every Muslim and Jew in the city was killed, except perhaps for a few spared by less ruthless Crusaders. On the way, dissident monks and Eastern Christians had also been attacked, even slaughtered.
Christian leaders and Christian doctrines have been accused of justifying and perpetrating violence against Native Americans found in the New World.[48][49]
During the Age of Discovery, the Catholic Church inaugurated a major effort to spread Christianity in the New World and to convert the Native Americans and other indigenous people. The missionary effort was a major part of, and a partial justification for the colonial efforts of European powers such as Spain, France and Portugal. ChristianMissions to the indigenous peoples ran hand-in-hand with the colonial efforts of Catholic nations.
Jordan writes "The catastrophe of Spanish America's rape at the hands of the Conquistadors remains one of the most potent and pungent examples in the entire history of human conquest of the wanton destruction of one culture by another in the name of religion"[50]
The monk Las Casas recorded his eyewitness account of acts carried out in the name of Jesus Christ against the Indians:
"they made bets as to who would slit a man in two, or cut of his head at one blow; or they opened up his bowels. They tore the babes from their mothers breast by their feet, and dashed their heads against the rocks...they spitted the bodies of other babes, together with their mothers and all who were before them, on their swords"...they would hang chosen Tainos from a gallows frame, "just high enough for their feet to nearly touch the ground, and by thirteen's, in honour and reverence for our Redeemer and the twelve Apostles, they put wood underneath and, with fire, they burned the Indians alive....."Having sharpened their swords earlier that morning on whetstones in a riverbed, the soldiers were eager to test them out, and the occasion somehow offered itself: ' A Spaniard, in whom the devil is thought to have clothed himself, suddenly drew his sword. Then the whole hundred drew theirs and began to rip open the bellies, to cut and kill those lambs - men, women, children and old folk, all of whom were seated, off guard and frightened, watching the mares and the Spaniards. And within two credos, not a man of all of them there remains alive.[51]
^isn't this the same person who said "yes great copy paste from varius sites there "?
Posted by Rahala (Member # 16703) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwvwv: Hey Pablo, I've been nice to you, nevertheless you have to resort to insults so typical of Muslims when they lose an argument. I don't know what I am posting eh? You who posted the most irrelevant things that had nothing to do with my question. Honestly you look like a retard to me, how is it possible to argue with someone like you? Like a wise man said: "never argue with an idiot..they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience". Your stupidity is indeed unbeatable and your ignorance shines through.
Thought you would recognize this earlier!!
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
Good job Ayisha . but u will never be as good as WV in copy and paste.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
People who do these violent things are going against the teachings of Jesus.
There is no denying that atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity but these things can never be justified by the teachings of Jesus.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: People who do these violent things are going against the teachings of Jesus.
There is no denying that atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity but these things can never be justified by the teachings of Jesus.
They were done by Christians and as Islam gets attacked for anything any wayard Muslim does why is it ok for you to say that's not the teachings of Jesus and no matter how many times it is said that is NOT the teachings of Muhammed no one listens? The proof is there!
It says in the Bible 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
but we are now told this is a 'parable', so explain to me what sort of 'parable' is it that is to turn a man against his father and daughter against her mother and a man's enemies will be members of his household and how does that twist round to PEACE?
So those that do these voilent things are NOT actually against the teachings of Jesus and what he SAID but they are against what someone has twisted into this being a 'parable'. he SAID quite clearly he had NOT come to bring peace to the earth, so how is that a 'parable' to mean the opposite of what he SAID he had come to do?
Rahala, I was showing that I too can copy and paste articles and I provided the link to where I got it from to show I had not twisted anything or claimed it as my own.
Posted by vwvwv (Member # 18213) on :
Translation for dummies:
"I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Translation: I cannot offer peace (reconciliate myself with mankind), until sin, the passions and vices, have been cut down, as if by sword. (throughout the NT the word sword is used to describe the word of God: Ephesians 6:17-- "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.")
[The image of the sword is a powerful way to explain how the word of God pierces our hearts, the power of the word of God is even sharper than a two-edged sword.]
I did not come to force you to accept me, I did not come to crush the Roman Empire with army and weapons, instead I came to willingly lay down my life and die for the sins of the whole world. And it is up to you whether to accept my gift or not.
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth."
Do not suppose it will be easy. Some will hate you for following me. Some will persecute you. It is the sword of division that my word brings. It is the division of truth from error, and the reaction of the darkness against the light.
The sword that I bring, is the sword that my followers may have to suffer, a sword that is applied to them, not a sword that they wield against others.
In fact I tell you:
"Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’ No, ‘if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. [Rom 12.17-21] "
These are my instructions on how to spread my word:
Mark 6:8-11 'Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.'" Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: People who do these violent things are going against the teachings of Jesus.
There is no denying that atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity but these things can never be justified by the teachings of Jesus.
They were done by Christians and as Islam gets attacked for anything any wayard Muslim does why is it ok for you to say that's not the teachings of Jesus and no matter how many times it is said that is NOT the teachings of Muhammed no one listens? The proof is there!
It says in the Bible 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
but we are now told this is a 'parable', so explain to me what sort of 'parable' is it that is to turn a man against his father and daughter against her mother and a man's enemies will be members of his household and how does that twist round to PEACE?
So those that do these voilent things are NOT actually against the teachings of Jesus and what he SAID but they are against what someone has twisted into this being a 'parable'. he SAID quite clearly he had NOT come to bring peace to the earth, so how is that a 'parable' to mean the opposite of what he SAID he had come to do?
Rahala, I was showing that I too can copy and paste articles and I provided the link to where I got it from to show I had not twisted anything or claimed it as my own.
Yes, Ayisha, They were done by those claiming to be Christians. Christians do bad things, but we are not talking about Christians, we are talking about Jesus the Christ.
I have never read of Jesus using acts of violence, or teaching others to use acts of violence; Not in the Bible, not in any historical document, and not in the Quran.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
[QUOTE] "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
I don’t know whats wrong with this verse . although u used poor translation . But may be because he didn’t find the right word. which shows how poor is ur language.
When God saw that the unbeliever hurt Muslims and torture them then God said .
Originally posted by Ayisha:
This is after the years of persecution of Christians and burning of witches and God decided the believers should fight back against the pagan oppressors. It shows they WERE turning the other cheek as it clearly says He prescribes a thing they do not LIKE to do, which is to fight.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
They were done by Christians and as Islam gets attacked for anything any wayard Muslim does why is it ok for you to say that's not the teachings of Jesus and no matter how many times it is said that is NOT the teachings of Muhammed no one listens?
I am fully willing to say that violence is not the teachings of Muhammed (pbuh), and there are Muslims that say that violence is not done by Muhammed (pbuh)......... In one breath, then in the next give justification as to why it is.
It is Muslims who say that it is. These are your words, not mine.
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