Fiji, an island archipelago in the Pacific Ocean in the southern tropics is a holiday paradise It has the honor of being the first place on Earth to welcome the new day. It lies longitudinally on the 180th meridian, the International Date Line, which makes a special bend eastwards around the island group so that Fijians will all keep the same time. Fiji is twelve hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time. 3,500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the south-west, and from the north-east, Polynesians and Melanesians paddled their canoes to Fiji to settle in this new land. The natives gradually scattered across the country forming village groups throughout the islands. Until 150 years ago, warring and cannibalism among these early settlers was quite common. But when the first missionaries arrived in 1840 and introduced Christianity, the Fijians were transformed into the gentle, peace-loving devout Christians that we know today.
Of the 330 Fijian islands, only 106 are inhabited. Most of the population of just under one million live on the largest island, Vita Levu. Fiji islanders and Fiji-Indians are the main inhabitants while other islanders, Chinese and Europeans are in the minority. Fiji is a developing country with abundant forest, mineral and fish resources and a thriving sugar industry. Tourism is growing with approximately 350,000 visitors annually. Many come especially to dive among the beautiful coral reefs that surround each island.
The recent military coup has adversely affected Fiji's business economy and the European Union has suspended all aid until the next elections. This has resulted in a drastic down-turn in the building industry because of a lack of available funds. The economy of Fiji is severely depressed with 25% of the people living below the poverty line.
The Fiji-Indians are the businessmen and the towns and city streets are lined with all manner of shops and businesses almost all owned by the Indians. Each town has at least one market place where tourists can have fun bartering for items on sale. The wide variety of stalls offer local fruit and vegetables, wonderful exotic spices like turmeric, ginger, cardamom and chillies, sulis, sarongs, colorful shirts, hand made arts and crafts, beads, pearls, shells, plus many more delights it is almost impossible to visit the market place and come away empty handed.
While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a family-oriented community who live mainly in villages. They live a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with the villagers helping each other. They grow their own fruit and vegetables and keep chickens, goats and cows for eggs, milk and meat. They are practically self-sufficient for their day-to-day sustenance This style of community living is all-encompassing, with each family member from the oldest to the youngest being treated as a person of worth. Many Fijians are employed in the luxury tourist resorts, sugar mills, and other laboring jobs where they work for just $1 - $2 an hour.
A visit to Fiji is a step back in time there are no high-rise buildings, crowds, commercialism, fast cars (there is an 80kph speed limit), in fact, it's as if you have entered a time warp from the 1970s. The pace is slower Fiji time'. That is how things are done here no hurry, so just settle back and enjoy your Fijian holiday. Bula!
.
A factual guide to Fiji - Australia & South Pacific - Helium - by ... 3500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the ... While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a ... www.helium.com/ tm/856986/ island-archipelago- pacific-ocean - 33k - Cached - Similar pages Chronological History of Tanganyika (Tanzania) Interestingly, the flowering tree seen in the images below is common to both Tanganyika and Fiji. In Fiji it is called the Fijian Tulip and is found all ... www.fijibure. com/tang. htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages More results from www.fijibure. com Friends of the Serengeti The Fijian's believe that their forefathers recently (about 600 years ago) came from Tanganyika the accepted cradle of man! www.tokencoins. com/gea05. htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods | Travel Writing and Fiji ... Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). ... www.travelintellige nce.com/. ../Fiji/Viti- Levu/ Vatuka/Vatukacevace va-Encounters- with-the- Gods.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Raceandhistory. com - AFRICAN PRESENCE IN FIJI Fijian Tradition "We, the Black people in Fiji, came here a long time ago to our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East Africa. ... www.raceandhistory. com/historicalvi ews/africanfiji. htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
The Straight Path: A Story of Healing and Transformation in Fiji ... PART ONE : HEALING IN FIJIAN CULTURE 8 ..... religious customs, oral history and iconography. ..our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East...exactly ... www.questia. com/.../book/ the-straight- path-a-story- of-healing- and-transformati on-in-fiji- by-richard- katz.jsp - Similar pages
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Australasia > Fiji > Viti Levu > Vatuka > Articles
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods Suddenly the track gives way, and we lurch over the edge. For a moment we hover between disaster and salvation, before the goddess of mercy intervenes.
Articles
12,001 Miracles
Those Other Pyramids of Egypt
Tibet's Wild East
Under the Trees in Mozambique
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods
Waters of Life: Bali Goes World Heritage
We’re in the rugged Nakauvadra Ranges of Fiji, a place where four-wheel drive has never before ventured. Suddenly the track gives way, and we lurch over the edge. For a moment we hover between disaster and salvation, before the goddess of mercy intervenes. With the greatest of luck we manage to clamber to safety, the 4WD perched at a precarious 45° angle. Then I remember Chief Semesa’s words: "If you don't get my blessing to go into the hills, the ancestral spirits will chase you down again!" Have we angered the gods by bringing a 4WD up into this rarefied atmosphere?
On this occasion, we’re fortunate to be driving a machine that would do anyone proud. A Daihatsu Feroza -- a luxury in most parts of the world, but a near-necessity here in Fiji, where the inland 'roads' are so bad that a lunar landing vehicle might be more appropriate. The leader of this trip, through the mountains north of Vatukacevaceva village is Tom Valentine of Taveuni Island, a proud and amiable character, as befits a member of a race that (unofficially) traces its origins back to ancient Egypt. One of his great grandmothers married an American: hence the Western-sounding name, which in former times was a passport to an education. Tom seems to know Fiji better than most other Fijians put together.
One might think that the gods would choose a more pronounceable name than 'Vatukacevaceva'. For the record, it's pronounced: Va-tu-KAR-they-va-they-va. Vatuka (for short) is not only the cradle of Fijian civilisation, but also a place of awesome beauty, and a cattle-raising centre of renown. The stockmen of the northern coastal towns of Fiji's main island, Viti Levu, have earned for themselves the title "Fiji Cowboys", wearing outfits that make them look as though they've just stepped out of a Wild West movie set. But the real cowboys of Vatukacevaca, inland from the coast, have no need to put on a show. Daily they perform feats that would put the ersatz coastal cowboys to shame, riding at speed through mountainous terrain that would leave the lowlanders quivering at the knees.
Travelling the road to Vatuka we stop to ask an elderly gentlemen on horseback for directions. He doesn’t know this area, but directs us to a nearby village. Here we meet Malo, who comes along for the ride. Above us, rearing their heads like dragons, are the hills of the Nakauvadra Range, so jagged that they seem to have been cut from the earth with a celestial fretsaw. In the plummeting valleys far below, horses and cattle peacefully graze. This Range is the home of the ancestral gods, in particular the serpent god Degei, still revered and worshipped by the locals despite the introduction of Christianity.
Mareivalu, the village headman of Vatuka, has been out on horseback tending the village cattle; nevertheless, he offers to show us around the village. Vatuka is a peaceful community, seemingly permanently awe-struck by the beauty of its natural setting. Later we’re privileged to be introduced to the village chieftain, Ratu Semesa. He produces for our perusal a sacred stone, a perfect sphere the size and weight of a cannonball. It was found, they say, floating in a pool of water, about 90 years ago. I’m sorry, I can’t verify this story, but such is the stature and gravitas of the chieftain that you feel no inclination to doubt his word.
Ratu Semesa tells us about the layout and tracks through the Nakauvadra Range, and then, in a warning that is to prove prophetic, says: "If you don't get my permission to visit the hills, the ancestral spirits will chase you down again!"
Taking Ratu Semesa’s implied permission as a blessing, we decide to try to emulate the horses that negotiate these rough hills with alacrity. This strictly 'low range' territory. We ford a couple of streams and then start climbing, along a ridge so steep that the hills above almost overhang. On either side of the narrow saddle we’re climbing, the valley floor yawns far below.
And then... the track gives way. The next hour is spent digging the earth from under the topmost wheels to lower the vehicle to a level plane. Eventually we succeed, and I have the dubious privilege of reversing down the hill, my heart so firmly in my mouth that I can just about taste the ventricles.
Later, I find out a little more about this awesome mountain. According to legend, the god Degei, whose wrath we’ve aroused, is worshipped as a spirit, an ancestor and an ordinary human being all at once. The story goes that Degei and Lutonasobusobu were the first people to arrive in Fiji. Travelling inland from the coast, they settled at the foot of the Nakauvadra Range, and founded the village of Vatukacevaceva. Degei later took refuge in a cave in the hills.
Later, they say, came the 'Great Flood' (Ualuvu Levu), which dispersed people to all parts of Fiji. Is this the same flood as that of the Old Testament? Several days later I meet a character who throws in another perspective on the story. Albert O'Connor, who now runs a dive and holiday resort on remote Kadavu Island, is one-eighth Irish and seven-eighths much more than just Irish. His great-grandfather was an escaped convict from Australia, who along with several others jumped ship to Galau Island, near Kadavu. Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). From here, parties set out east in search of new territory, calling in at Java and Papua New Guinea on the way. Eventually they reached Fiji, landing at Narewa on the northern coast of Viti Levu - just twenty kilometres from where Vatuka stands today. According to Albert, it's these people who founded the village of Vatukacevaceva.
A similar story is told by a cultural interpreter at Pacific Harbour museum complex, southeast of Suva. Embellishments to the story include the assertion that the Tanganyikan voyagers came originally from Egypt. The Pacific Harbour narrator add further details to the story. Many died during the trip. To replace them, the travellers raided Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, where few were able to resist. The only people smart enough to escape the invading hordes were the Australian aborigines, who knew in advance of the convoy's approach, and watched silently from hiding places in the hills.
However, some historians say that all these 'legends' could be a hoax, stemming from a single hoary story unleashed by missionaries in the 1890s. To these authorities, a more acceptable explanation is that the Fijians came from Indochina, via the Philippines and Indonesia. These people later became the Melanesians and Polynesians.
Whatever the true story may be, the mystery remains. Get to know the Fijian people a little, and this mystique only deepens. Despite the continuing turmoil, coups and uprisings, Fiji comes as a profound eye-opener.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Balson Holdings Family Trust holds a number of historically significant historical collections covering old maps, political memorabilia, old and rare books, and unusual numismatic items. The most famous, the money of the Griqua people, can be seen at this link.
The Balson Holdings Family Trust has a valuable representative collection of Fiji's bank notes and complete collection of Fiji's pre-decimal coins . The history of the bank notes is as fascinating as the country itself. The interest in these collections resulted directly from the development of the innovative niche travel market of Fijian Village Homestays established by Scott Balson after he fell in love with the people and their culture.
But first, a brief history of Fiji: Fijians believe that they originated from the shores of Lake Tanganyika ("fish bag" in Fijian) situated on the western border of Tanganyika (East Africa). Fable records that Lutunasobasoba, a powerful chief and navigator, guided his people in their huge ocean going canoes to their final landing place at Vuda (our source) on Viti Levu's western coast near Ba. Interestingly, one of the largest coastal river systems in Tanganyika (now Tanzania) is the Rufiji - made famous by the German Cruiser, the SMS Konigsberg, and von Lettow Vorbeck, the German General who kept the British Allies on the run throughout World War One. More on this fascinating historical overlap can be viewed at this link. Science tells a different story with the island of Lakeba (in the Lau Island group) located between Viti Levu and Tonga being the first base of Polynesians and Melanesians who travelled south and settled here some 3,000 years ago. Ancient carbon-dated pottery found on Lakeba dates back to about 1500BC. Scientists believe they were the first Fijians.
During the centuries leading up to the arrival of the whiteman and following the arrival of the first Missionaries in 1835 horrific stories of massacres and brother killing brother were common. It was common practice in early Fijian villages to simply strangle men and women who were old and sick who could no longer play a useful role in their society. Cannibalism was rife with the brains of the victims being the delicacy most sought after. The two major powers in the decades leading up to the cession of Fiji to Great Britain were Bau, under Cakobau ("Tui Viti") the King of Fiji and the villages under Rewa. These two peoples fought wars that lasted decades and resulted in some horrific massacres and killings which included burying people alive. The Fijian spoken today by ethnic Fijians originates from the "Bau" dialect.
Over many generations the Fijian people scattered throughout the islands as they tried to escape stronger waring groups. Theses stragglers made their way across the main island of Viti Levu's Nadrau Plateau - then settled in little villages like Namatakula on the coral coast. You can follow their footseps by going on a trek from Nadrau. Just 150 years ago these villages were at war and cannibalism was common. It was at the village of Nabutautau, near Nadrau, that the British Missionary Thomas Baker was killed and eaten by cannibals in 1867. On the coastline between Namatakula and Navutulevu are the remains of a historic stone wall erected by the villagers of Namatakula preventing the neighbouring coastal villagers of Navutulevu from attacking them.
Image right: the remains of the stone wall on the beach at Namatakula
The Fijian's traditionally most prized possession is the golden tabua... more at this link
When the first missionaries arrived in the 1840s a remarkable transformation took place and today the Fijians are peace-loving and God-fearing people with churches dominating their villages. The Fijians stopped their killing and settled down into a hunter-gatherer lifestyle with villages side by side living in peace. It was at about this time the first bank notes appeared in Fiji. In 1874 Fiji became a British colony and the next year a severe measles epidemic killed about one third of the population.
A breakdown of important Chiefs and Rulers of Fiji from the 1700s to date is at this link
A more detailed history of Fiji politics up to date can be seen at this link.
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
The Fijian assertion that they are African in origin is valid; and should be obvious to all that in appearance and culture, they are native to the Black Collective of people.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
While some Fijians have a memory of African origin that does not mean that they all came from Africa. Many of them came from aboriginal populations of New Guinea, Indonesia and South East Asia as well.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Finally, our limited genetic data from Tanzanians belonging to haplogroups M1, N1, and J suggest 2 alternatives that are not mutually exclusive. Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest "back" migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.
I never said that all present day Fijians hail from Africa. However, those who assert that they do have as much a valid claim to African anscestry as any on this forum who are not indigenous Africans but claim descent in part or full.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
We all know that humans originated in Africa over 100,000 years ago. The issue is how much of an impact RECENT migrations from Africa had in Oceania as Oceania has been populated with blacks for over 60,000 years.
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
Doug M
With respect,
I note your comments on the geographical origin of the human race, and its subsequent diffusion or migrations to other areas of the earth. Would it be fair to presume that you view the disciplines of evolution and anthropology as credible? Within reason, I judge yes.
Suffice to say, on my part, I prefer and find reliable the explanations of my forefathers, which dates no further back in time than 4500 to 6000 years, as regards our origins. And it certainly did not begin in present day Africa.
Having said this, I am not averse to learning from the harvest of human experience or its teachings (evolution and anthropolgy included).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Many researchers have long noted the presence of African placenames in the Pacific and Asia generally. A certain Mr. Onimisi Baiye has an interesting site where he discusses Yoruba and Japanese placenames.
JAPANESE............. ºE....... ºN....... NIGERIAN 1 Azuma-san (mountain) 140-141 37-38.... Zuma Rock , Niger State
2 Tobi-shima (island) 139-140 39-40.... Tobi: Rivers State male name
3 Akō(town) 134-135 34-35.... Akō: Yoruba, excessive pride
4 Akan(town) 144-145 43-44...... Akandu: Ibo male name
5 Ibara(town) 133-134 34-35....... Ibarapa, Oyo State
6 Minna-jima (island) 124-125 24-25..... Minna, Niger State
18 Watanabe...... Watanabe: Southern Borno State name
19 Kōbe(city) 134.41 135.1....... Achakōbe: Isoko,Delta State name
20 Machida .......Maccido: Fulani, Sokoto State name
Compiled by Onimisi Baiye onimisibaiye@yahoo.co.uk
Onimisi Baiye wrote:
quote:
Far East Asian Languages Are Near African Languages
Written and Compiled by: Onimisi Baiye
If you do an Internet image search, www.google.com on the following Nigerian names: Haruna, Sambo, Pankan, Kwashi, Imoko, Chika, Azuka, Ezuka, Koma, Zoro, Watanabe, Nene, Osato, Osaru, Okada, Edo, Baba, Emiko, Kano, Nana, Aya, Tami, Tai, Sada, Ikimi, Ume, you will more likely see a Japanese link than a Nigerian link.
The writing system of Japanese hides the striking similarities between Japanese and African languages. But on closer examination of the syllables that make up the Kanji character set, the syllables easily describe the Nigerian Languages.
Japanese festivals and dressing are very African in color combination. Also Shinto is about shrines, ancestors, mountain spirits, tree spirits, the so-called heathen religions that was used to justify the enslavement of Blacks.
Japanese were bleached out by invading Mongolians, that is why Southern Japanese people are darker-skinned than their northern counterparts.
Chinese and Korean map to the Calabar languages of South-Southern Nigeria. One has to listen to and see the physical stature someone from that part of Nigeria to to have a feel of of the similarities to Chinese and Koreans. Unfortunately, because of the Eurocentric nature of post-colonial Nigerians, the Calabar people cannot understand why Chinese and Koreans are their bleached-out descendants. Martial Arts is of African origin.
web page Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Fijian origin tale is most interesting given the fact that the speakers of the Niger Congo languages originally lived in Nubia. The presence of these people here may point to an early migration of speakers of these languages also into Tanzania. This would explain the presence of West African place names in the Pacific and West Africa. These names were probably carried to both areas by Niger-Congo speaking people formerly of Nubia.
Baiye is not the first person to note the presence of African placenames in the Pacific. The first person to discuss this hypothesis was W.J. Page.
Williams John Page discussed the Lakato Hypothesis. The Lakato Hypothesis stated simply implies that the Melanesian people of Fiji were carried to the Pacific Islands by Indonesian maritime merchants after they had colonized parts of East and central Africa.
A recent article on Nigerian place names in India was published by Dr. R. Balakrishnan titled "African roots of the Dravidian-speaking Tribes: A case in Onomastics", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 34(1) (2005),pp.153-202. Like Baiye, Dr. Balakrishnan found almost 500 Nigerian placenames, and 46 tribal names in Koraput, India; and 110 ethnonyms of Koyas in Nigeria. This led Dr. Balakrishnan to declare that :"However, the overwhelming evidence available from the toponymic corpuses of Koraput and Nigeria, and ethnonyms, surnames and personal names of Koyas seem more adequate to propose an African origin to the Koyas, the Dravidian speakers" (p.177) It is interesting to note that we find Koya placenames in Nigeria, and Nigerian place names on the East Coast of India (Balakrishnan), Nigerian place names throughout the Pacific (Page) and Nigerian placenames and surnames in Japan (Baiye). This shows a direct spread of Nigerian place names from Africa, across the Indian Ocean into the Pacific. The discovery of common placenames in three different regions can not be accounted by coincidence.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: We all know that humans originated in Africa over 100,000 years ago. The issue is how much of an impact RECENT migrations from Africa had in Oceania as Oceania has been populated with blacks for over 60,000 years.
There were probably four major migration of the Africans into the Pacific. The first migration was the migration of early homo sapiens sapiens out of Africa around 60,000 BC. The remnants of this migration is probably the highland Melanesians and Australians. These people demonstrate the physical type associated with the early homo sapien sapiens.
The second migration was a migration of pgymy and bushman type people around 20,000-15,000 BC. These people settle many Indian Ocean Islands, India, and East Asia. Remnants of these people are the Munda speakers of India and inhabitants of the Nicobar and Andamen islands. These people made little impact in Oceania which was predominantely still occupied at this time by the Australian type people.
Andaman People
Munda Woman
Tribal People Orissa
Bushman
The third migration was of modern Africans. This migration occurned between 2000-1500 BC. These people spoke languages related to the Niger-Congo and Dravidian groups. They are predominately known as Kushites and spread the use of red-and-black pottery, cattle rearing and millet and yam cultivation to India, Central and East Asia .These Africans also spread a common megalithic culture from Africa to Hawaii. The Fijians were probably part of this group.
The fourth migration took place between 1000-500 BC. This migration resulted from the Hua (contemporary) Chinese defeating the Yin-Shang situated at Anyang, China. These Africans forced out of East Asia and Southeast Asia settle the low land areas of Near Oceania. The lapita artifacts suggest that some of these Africans may have also made their way to Fiji.
The Hua defeat of the Yin-Shang forced Africans and Dravidians out of North China into Central Asia, and onto the Pacific islands. Dravidian speakers (mainly Tamil) were forced into Central Asia, and via Yunnan Province across Southeast Asia and into South India.
Although most Yin people remained in Indonesia. Other Yin people, or Proto-Polynesians began to settle the Pacific Islands during this period.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The original migrants out of Africa had different features than the contemporary Africans.
Here is an Australian
Here is a contemporary Africans
You can clearly see differences between the Australian and African type; while both individuals are described as Negroes you will note that the forehead of the Australian matches in many ways the cranium of earlier hominid forms dating back to the rise of homo sapiens sapiens in Africa.
Any physical anthropologists would note these changes. The coastal Melanesians usually show mixed Australian-African features or features commonly found among Africans--not Australians.\
Fijians
Australians
A simple observation of Melanesians and Aborigines make it clear that they resemble Africans moreso than Aborigines--the original settlers of Asia.
The ancestors of the Melanesians and Polynesians probably lived in East Asia. The late appearance of Melanoid people from East Asia on the shore areas of Oceania would explain the differences between the genetic make up of Melanesians living in the highlands and Melanesians living along the shore [1-2].
The skeletal evidence from East Asia [3-7,12] suggests that the TMRCAs of the Polynesians and some of the coastal Melanesians may be mainland East Asia, not Taiwan. The ancestral population for the shoreline Melanesians was probably forced from East Asia by Proto-Polynesians as they were pushed into Southeast Asia by the Han or contemporary Chinese. This would explain the genetic diversity existing among shoreline Melanesians, in comparison to the genetic homogeneity among isolated inland Melanesian, like the Highland New Guineans.
There were two Shang Dynasties, one Melanoid (Qiang-Shang) and the other Proto-Polynesian (Yin-Shang). The first Shang Dynasty was founded by Proto-Melanesians or Melanoids belonging to the Yueh tribe called Qiang [7]. The Qiang lived in Qiangfeng, a country to the west of Yin-Shang, Shensi and Yunnan [7-11,13].
The archaeological evidence also indicates that the Polynesians probably originated in East Asia [4,6-7,12-13]. Consequently, the Polynesian migration probably began in East Asia, not Southeast Asia. Taiwan genetically probably belongs to the early Polynesians who settled Taiwan before they expanded into outer Oceania.
Given the archaeological record of intimate contact between Proto-Polynesians and Proto-Melanoids, neither a “slow boat” or “express train” explains the genetic relationship between the Melanesian and Polynesian populations. This record makes it clear that these populations lived in intimate contact for thousands of years and during this extended period of interactions both groups probably exchanged genes.
References 1. Manfred Kayser, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J. Trent, Mark Stoneking Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians. The American Journal of Human Genetics - 10 January 2008, 82 (1); pp. 194-198.
2. J. S. Fredlaender, F.R. Friedlaender, J.A. Hodgson, M. Stoltz, G. Koki, G. Horvat,S. Zhadanov, T. G. Schurr and D.A. Merriwether, Melanesian mtDNA complexity, PLoS ONE, 2(2) 2007: e248.
3 F. Weidenreich F., Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163.
4. Kwang-chih Chang, Archaeology of ancient China (Yale University Press, 1986) p. 64.
5. G. H. R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp. 301-309).
6. K. C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977): p. 76
7. Winters, Clyde Ahmad, “The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils”, Journal of Tamil Studies, no27 (June 1985), pp. 65-92.
8. K. C. Chang, Shang Civilization, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1980) pp. 227-230.
9. C. A. Winters, The Dravido-Harappa Colonization of Central Asia, Central Asiatic Journal, (1990) 34 (1-2), pp. 120-144.
10. Y. Kan, The Bronze culture of western Yunnan, Bull. Of the Ancient Orient Museum (Tokyo), 7 (1985), pp. 47-91.
11. S. S. Ling, A study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double, and Deck canoes of ancient China, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean. The Institute of Ethnology Academic Sinica. Nankang, Taipei Taiwan, 1970.
12. Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964): pp. 359-375: 375).
13. Winters,Clyde Ahmad, “Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia”, India Past and Present 3, no2 (1986): pp. 225-241.
.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
I can't put my finger on it but I found the above essay just very amusing and very simple-minded. Who is the author?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The original migrants out of Africa had different features than the contemporary Africans.
Here is an Australian
Here is a contemporary Africans
You can clearly see differences between the Australian and African type; while both individuals are described as Negroes you will note that the forehead of the Australian matches in many ways the cranium of earlier hominid forms dating back to the rise of homo sapiens sapiens in Africa.
Any physical anthropologists would note these changes. The coastal Melanesians usually show mixed Australian-African features or features commonly found among Africans--not Australians.\
Fijians
Australians
A simple observation of Melanesians and Aborigines make it clear that they resemble Africans moreso than Aborigines--the original settlers of Asia.
The ancestors of the Melanesians and Polynesians probably lived in East Asia. The late appearance of Melanoid people from East Asia on the shore areas of Oceania would explain the differences between the genetic make up of Melanesians living in the highlands and Melanesians living along the shore [1-2].
The skeletal evidence from East Asia [3-7,12] suggests that the TMRCAs of the Polynesians and some of the coastal Melanesians may be mainland East Asia, not Taiwan. The ancestral population for the shoreline Melanesians was probably forced from East Asia by Proto-Polynesians as they were pushed into Southeast Asia by the Han or contemporary Chinese. This would explain the genetic diversity existing among shoreline Melanesians, in comparison to the genetic homogeneity among isolated inland Melanesian, like the Highland New Guineans.
There were two Shang Dynasties, one Melanoid (Qiang-Shang) and the other Proto-Polynesian (Yin-Shang). The first Shang Dynasty was founded by Proto-Melanesians or Melanoids belonging to the Yueh tribe called Qiang [7]. The Qiang lived in Qiangfeng, a country to the west of Yin-Shang, Shensi and Yunnan [7-11,13].
The archaeological evidence also indicates that the Polynesians probably originated in East Asia [4,6-7,12-13]. Consequently, the Polynesian migration probably began in East Asia, not Southeast Asia. Taiwan genetically probably belongs to the early Polynesians who settled Taiwan before they expanded into outer Oceania.
Given the archaeological record of intimate contact between Proto-Polynesians and Proto-Melanoids, neither a “slow boat” or “express train” explains the genetic relationship between the Melanesian and Polynesian populations. This record makes it clear that these populations lived in intimate contact for thousands of years and during this extended period of interactions both groups probably exchanged genes.
References 1. Manfred Kayser, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J. Trent, Mark Stoneking Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians. The American Journal of Human Genetics - 10 January 2008, 82 (1); pp. 194-198.
2. J. S. Fredlaender, F.R. Friedlaender, J.A. Hodgson, M. Stoltz, G. Koki, G. Horvat,S. Zhadanov, T. G. Schurr and D.A. Merriwether, Melanesian mtDNA complexity, PLoS ONE, 2(2) 2007: e248.
3 F. Weidenreich F., Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163.
4. Kwang-chih Chang, Archaeology of ancient China (Yale University Press, 1986) p. 64.
5. G. H. R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp. 301-309).
6. K. C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977): p. 76
7. Winters, Clyde Ahmad, “The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils”, Journal of Tamil Studies, no27 (June 1985), pp. 65-92.
8. K. C. Chang, Shang Civilization, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1980) pp. 227-230.
9. C. A. Winters, The Dravido-Harappa Colonization of Central Asia, Central Asiatic Journal, (1990) 34 (1-2), pp. 120-144.
10. Y. Kan, The Bronze culture of western Yunnan, Bull. Of the Ancient Orient Museum (Tokyo), 7 (1985), pp. 47-91.
11. S. S. Ling, A study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double, and Deck canoes of ancient China, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean. The Institute of Ethnology Academic Sinica. Nankang, Taipei Taiwan, 1970.
12. Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964): pp. 359-375: 375).
13. Winters,Clyde Ahmad, “Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia”, India Past and Present 3, no2 (1986): pp. 225-241.
.
Actually Melanesians and other Pacific Islanders look like people from New Guinea not Australians. People from New Guinea are black, look like Africans and do not look like Australians. They are also remnants of the original OOA migration.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm interested and want to see and read more.
In the whole article there's only one unsupported phrase in a sentence about partial East African origins for Fijians as claimed by one Peta Young.
Where is the supporting multidiscipline evidence and who are the Fijians (plural) presenting it?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: by Peta Young 3,500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the south-west, ...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
OK, good. Here we have a non-professional oral history.
Do Fijians have professional oral historians? Since Tanganyika did not exist as a nation at the time of the exode, what was the actual name Fijians used for the place in E. Africa where some of them originated?
Egypt before Tanganyika? Incredible!
Is this on record from any early transcriber of Fiji's lore or is it as suspected, just a work of European missionary ultra-diffusionist myth?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). From here, parties set out east in search of new territory, calling in at Java and Papua New Guinea on the way. Eventually they reached Fiji, landing at Narewa on the northern coast of Viti Levu - just twenty kilometres from where Vatuka stands today. According to Albert, it's these people who founded the village of Vatukacevaceva.
A similar story is told by a cultural interpreter at Pacific Harbour museum complex, southeast of Suva. Embellishments to the story include the assertion that the Tanganyikan voyagers came originally from Egypt. The Pacific Harbour narrator add further details to the story. Many died during the trip. To replace them, the travellers raided Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, where few were able to resist. The only people smart enough to escape the invading hordes were the Australian aborigines, who knew in advance of the convoy's approach, and watched silently from hiding places in the hills.
However, some historians say that all these 'legends' could be a hoax, stemming from a single hoary story unleashed by missionaries in the 1890s. To these authorities, a more acceptable explanation is that the Fijians came from Indochina, via the Philippines and Indonesia. These people later became the Melanesians and Polynesians. Whatever the true story may be, the mystery remains. Get to know the Fijian people a little, and this mystique only deepens. Despite the continuing turmoil, coups and uprisings, Fiji comes as a profound eye-opener.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This material bears and is capable of linguistic analysis.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: But first, a brief history of Fiji: Fijians believe that they originated from the shores of Lake Tanganyika ("fish bag" in Fijian) situated on the western border of Tanganyika (East Africa). Fable records that Lutunasobasoba, a powerful chief and navigator, guided his people in their huge ocean going canoes to their final landing place at Vuda (our source) on Viti Levu's western coast near Ba. Interestingly, one of the largest coastal river systems in Tanganyika (now Tanzania) is the Rufiji - made famous by the German Cruiser, the SMS Konigsberg, and von Lettow Vorbeck, the German General who kept the British Allies on the run throughout World War One.Â
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Agreed, and unless the migrants were all females we expect confirmation from NRY haplogroups too.
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: I never said that all present day Fijians hail from Africa. However, those who assert that they do have as much a valid claim to African anscestry as any on this forum who are not indigenous Africans but claim descent in part or full.
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
I await instruction on this thread.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: I await instruction on this thread.
Perhaps this will help. 4 papers on Fijian genetics-- all Polynesian not African.
Hertzberg, M. et al. 1989 “An Asian-specific 9-bp deletion of mitochondrial DNA is frequently found in Polynesians,” Am J Hum Genet 44(4): 504–510
One hundred fifty Polynesians from five different island groups (Samoans, Maoris, Niueans, Cook Islanders, and Tongans) were surveyed for the presence of an Asian-specific length mutation of mitochondrial (mt) DNA by using enzymatic amplification with thermostable Taq DNA polymerase. Ninety-three percent of Polynesians exhibited this 9-bp deletion, including 100% of Samoans, Maoris, and Niueans. The same deletion was also found in 8% of Tolais from New Britain and in 14% of coastal New Guineans. A deletion frequency of 82% in Fijians confirmed their ethnic affinity to Polynesians. In contrast, the deletion was absent in 30 New Guinea highlanders and 31 Australian aborigines, the only exception being an aborigine who also had the Southeast Asian triplicated zeta-globin gene rearrangement in his nuclear DNA. These data support the theories claiming that an independent group of pre-Polynesian ancestors who colonized into the Pacific were ultimately derived from east Asia.
Trent, R. J., et al. 1988 Globin genes are useful markers to identify genetic similarities between Fijians and Pacific Islanders from Polynesia and Melanesia. Am J Hum Genet. 1988 April; 42(4): 601–607.
DNA mapping studies in Fijians have enabled the identification of rearrangements and RFLPs involving the alpha-, zeta-, and gamma-globin genes. Comparisons of these data with corresponding gene markers in Polynesians and Melanesians of Papua New Guinea show considerable overlap between the three population groups. The utility of globin genes as population markers is further confirmed.
Lum, J. K. and R, L. Cann 1998 “mtDNA and Language Support a Common Origin of Micronesians and Polynesians in Island Southeast Asia,” Am. J. Physical Anthropology 105:109–119 (1998)
The ancestral mtDNA region V consists of two copies of a 9-bp repeat (Horai et al., 1993), which is considered the ‘‘standard length’’ (XX). Possible mutational mechanisms producing the four non-standard length polymorphisms are depicted in Figure 3. The most common short-length polymorphism (X.I) results from the deletion of one 9-bp repeat as described by Wrischnik et al. (1987). X.I is found in all the populations except the Moken, Australian Aborigines, and Papuan-speaking Melanesians. Observed frequencies of X.I are low to moderate in Mainland Asia (0.12 to 0.32), moderate in Island Southeast Asia (0.27 to 0.40), high to near fixation in Micronesia (0.56 to 0.94) and near fixation in Polynesia (0.86 to 1.0). . . .
Marianas Islands in Northwestern Micronesia, which has a frequency of 0.13. There is a west to east cline in X.I frequencies in the Melanesian populations sampled. X.I is absent in Papua New Guinea, low in Vanuatu (0.13), and high in Fiji (0.64). All of the individuals with X.I share a phylogenetically distinct group of control region sequences (Cann and Lum, 1996) which correspond to Lineage Group I (Lum et al., 1995). . . .
Table 1 shows a qualitative association between language and genetics; populations that speak Oceanic Austronesian languages tend to have high frequencies of X.I. The exception to this trend is Vanuatu. As noted earlier, there is a west to east frequency cline in X.I across Melanesia. Of the two Austronesian-speaking Melanesian populations, Vanuatu in the west is closer to Papuan-speaking populations and has a relatively low frequency of X.I. Fiji, in contrast, is at the eastern edge of Melanesia and has a high X.I frequency, comparable to other Oceanic Austronesian-speaking populations in Micronesia (Table 1). Fijians sampled in this study are from the Yasawa Island Group in the extreme west of Fiji. In this population we observe an X.I frequency of 0.64 while Hertzberg et al. (1989) reported a frequency of 0.82 from Fiji. The difference in X.I frequencies may reflect a west to east gradient within Fiji analogous to that seen across Melanesia. We suspect that all Oceanic speaking populations initially had high frequencies of X.I and interpret the low X.I frequency of Vanuatu as evidence of gene flow from Papuan-speaking Melanesia. Studies of both a-globin haplotypes (Roberts-Thomson et al., 1996) and HLA allele frequencies (Serjeantson, 1985) have grouped Fijians and other Austronesian speaking Melanesians with Papuan-speaking Melanesians to the exclusion of other Austronesian speakers. This suggests extensive gene flow east across Melanesia. Taken with the results from our mtDNA analysis, this indicates that gene flow from Papuan speaking populations into Austronesian speaking populations within Melanesia has been sex biased; gene flow suggested by studies of autosomal loci extends farther east than that observed in mitochondrial studies.
Kayser, M. et al. 2006 “Melanesian and Asian origins of Polynesians: mtDNA and Y-chromosome gradients across the Pacific,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 23(11):2234–2244.
The human settlement of the Pacific Islands represents one of the most recent major migration events of mankind. Polynesians originated in Asia according to linguistic evidence or in Melanesia according to archaeological evidence. To shed light on the genetic origins of Polynesians we investigated over 400 Polynesians from eight island groups, in comparison with over 900 individuals from potential parental populations of Melanesia, Southeast and East Asia, and Australia, by means of Y-chromosome (NRY) and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) markers. Overall, we classified 94.1% of Polynesian Y-chromosomes and 99.8% of Polynesian mtDNAs as of either Melanesian (NRY-DNA: 65.8%, mtDNA: 6%) or Asian (NRY-DNA: 28.3%, mtDNA: 93.8%) origin, suggesting a dual genetic origin of Polynesians in agreement with the “Slow Boat” hypothesis. Our data suggest a pronounced admixture bias in Polynesians towards more Melanesian men than women, perhaps as a result of matrilocal residence in the ancestral Polynesian society. Although dating methods are consistent with somewhat similar entries of NRY/mtDNA haplogroups into Polynesia, haplotype sharing suggests an earlier appearance of Melanesian haplogroups than those from Asia. Surprisingly, we identified gradients in the frequency distribution of some NRY/mtDNA haplogroups across Polynesia and a gradual west to east decrease of overall NRY/mtDNA diversity, not only providing evidence for a west-to-east direction of Polynesian settlements but also suggesting that Pacific voyaging was regular rather than haphazard. We also demonstrate that Fiji played a pivotal role in the history of Polynesia: humans probably first migrated to Fiji, and subsequent settlement of Polynesia probably came from Fiji.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: I can't put my finger on it but I found the above essay just very amusing and very simple-minded.
Truth. This thread is a redundant joke whose contentions have been refuted before.
Quetzalcoatl's links to the 4 genetic studies are accurate. Winters claims are thus dismissed.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by lamin: I can't put my finger on it but I found the above essay just very amusing and very simple-minded.
Truth. This thread is a redundant joke whose contentions have been refuted before.
Quetzalcoatl's links to the 4 genetic studies are accurate. Winters claims are thus dismissed.
Why do you always make it appear that this is my claim. This is just a reporting of the oral tradition of the Fiji people. If you desire to deny their claim fine with me. But please don't make it appear as if this is something I made up.
Instead of denying the history of these people you should try to discover what evidence may support this claim.
This is what i have tried to do. First, the Fijians claim they came from Africa. We know a megalithic culture expanded from Africa into the Indian/Pacific Ocean areas after 2000 BC. Secondly, African place names are found in the Pacific and correspondences between lexical items.
Common Terms:
English Manding Melanesian Polynesian
arrow bye,bya fana,pane fana,pana
Father baba babi papa
Man tye ta taga-ta
head ku tequ-qa tuku-noa
pot daga taga taga
vase bara pora,bora bora-bora
fish yege ige, ika ika
ox, cattle konga,gunga kede kuda
The ancient Austronesians cultivated rice, millet, yams and sugarcane. (Bellwood 1990, p.92)
It would appear that the Polynesians learned agriculture from the Manding as illustrated below:
Polynesian English Manding
*talun fallow, land daa
*tanem to plant, sow daa
*suluq torch, jet of flame suu
*kuDen cooking pot,bowl ku
This evidence provides linguistic and anthropological support for the Fiji tradition. It is wrong that you guys deny a people history just because your European masters to do not present evidence in support of a native tradition.
If you keep waiting for Europeans to verify our history you will have a long wait.
.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Clyde Winters : If you keep waiting for Europeans to verify our history you will have a long wait.
Don't attack the messenger, Dr. Clyde Winters
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Agreed, and unless the migrants were all females we expect confirmation from NRY haplogroups too.
There are other genetic markers which point to a relationship between the Fijians and Africans. For example, haplogroup V appears in New Guinea, while haplogroup IV has been found only in New Guinea, Near Oceania and Northwestern most Micronesia according to Merriwether et al., Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific, p.159, in SS Papilia, R. Deka & R. Chakraborty (Ed.), Genomic Diversity.In Cordaux et al.,Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India, Eur. J Hum Genet (2003)11(2):253-264, in figure 2 notes that Clusters X1 and X are found in Africa and the Pacific.
Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Fijian no more generally claim to come from Africa than Nigerians generally claim to come from Arabia, or Berber claim to come from Yemen, or Dravidians claim to come from Africa.
If a given peoples oral myths are divisible by 100%, and 95% of them make claims having nothing to do with Africa, while 5% make some mention of Africa, Winters will disingenuously claim "said people claim to come from africa".
Adding to this dishonesty he will imply that their indigenous histories are being ignored by anyone who does not take these claims at face value.
Winters so exploits lack of sound reason in his target audience.
In logic: it's Winters who ignored 95% of the oral histories of these people - in order to assert the 5% that serves *his* political purposes.
Don't get it?
Well here's and article on Melanesian origins, and origin *myths.*
The word Africa does not even appear in either context:
Polynesian peoples are believed to have settled the Fijian islands some 3,500 years ago, with Melanesians following around a thousand years later. Most authorities agree that they originated in Southeast Asia and came via Indonesia. Archeological evidence shows signs of settlement on Moturiki Island from 600 BC and possibly as far back as 900 BC.
The Fiji Times reported on 3 July 2005 that recent research by the Fiji Museum and the University of the South Pacific (USP) has found that skeletons excavated at Natadola in Sigatoka, at least 3000 years old, belonged to the first settlers of Fiji, with their origins in South China or Taiwan. The skeletons are to be sent to Japan for assembling and further research. Obsidian, a rare volcanic glass found only in Papua New Guinea had been discovered there, according to Patrick Nunn, USP Professor of Ocean Science and Geography, who theorized that the people could originally have left southern China or Taiwan some 7000 years ago, settling in Papua New Guinea before drifting on to Fiji and other countries. Lapita pottery found on the surface of the graves was almost 2500 years old, he said. Fiji Museum archaeologist Sepeti Matararaba said that the area beside the sea must have been occupied, because a great deal of pottery, hunting tools, and ancient shell jewellery had been discovered. More than 20 pits had been dug following the discovery of lapita in the area.
On 15 July 2005, it was reported that the same teams had uncovered 16 skeletons at Bourewa, near Natadola. The skeletons were found in a layer of undisturbed soil containing pottery from around 550 BC. Professor Nunn said there was now abundant evidence that Bourewa had been the first human settlement in the Fiji archipelago, occupied from around 1200 BC onwards. "Lapita people were the first people to come to Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Tonga and Samoa. These people left evidence of their existence by mainly their elaborately decorated and finely fashioned pottery," Nunn said. He said the evidence pointed to Papua New Guinea or the Solomon Islands as the place from where the earliest Fijians came, as the pottery fragments were typical of the early Lapita period in Papua New Guinea and the Solomons, but not readily found on Lapita Pottery in Fiji.
Nunn announced on 9 November 2005 that a black obsidian rock discovered near Natadola in southwest Viti Levu had originated in the Kutau-Bao obsidian mine on Talasea Peninsula on the island of New Britain, in Papua New Guinea, some 4500 kilometers away. Although carried throughout the Western Pacific by the Lapita people, it is not often found in Fiji. The obsidian, which showed signs of being "worked," probably arrived soon after the initial Lapita settlement in Bourewa circa 1150BC, Nunn said. He theorized that it was kept by the Lapita settlers as a talisman, a reminder of where they had come from.
Fiji Television reported on 20 March 2006 that an ancient Fijian village, believed to have been occupied by chiefs sometime between 1250 and 1560, had been discovered at Kuku, in Nausori. Its heavily fortified battle fort contained unique features not seen elsewhere in Fiji. Archeologist Sepeti Matararaba of the Fiji Museum expressed astonishment at some of the discoveries at the site, which included an iron axe used by white traders in exchange for Fijian artefacts. Local villages were reported to be rebuilding the site with a view to opening it up to tourists in July 2006.
According to oral tradition, the indigenous Fijians of today are descendants of the chief Lutunasobasoba and those who arrived with him on the Kaunitoni canoe. Landing at what is now Vuda, the settlers moved inland to the Nakauvadra mountains. Though this oral tradition has not been independently substantiated, the Fijian government officially promotes it, and many tribes today claim to be descended from the children of Lutunasobasoba. from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_Fiji"
^ and so, the thread exists for comedy as Winters asks - "who wants to get played?"
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
Clyde Winters is right.
There is something disturbing about certain members on this forum who question, reject and ridicule the oral chronicles of indigenous peoples in explaining their origin.
To add insult to injury, these guardians, gatekeepers and acolytes of Eurocentric academia then demand ' verifiable evidence' of and from indigenous peoples about their assertions, which they reserve the 'right' to label authentic or not.
How anybody could doubt or be 'objective' about the assertion of Fijians that originally they hail from modern day Africa escapes me??
All the Fijians I've met and discoursed with don't have any issues with their African origin.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876. .
K-M9 is not an African haplotype, see
Kayser, M. et al. 2003 “Reduced Y-Chromosome, but Not Mitochondrial DNA, Diversity in Human Populations from West New Guinea,” J. Hum. Genet. 72:281–302.
p. 289
quote: Haplogroup K-M9 most likely represents the common ancestor of the majority of non-African Y chromosomes, and many Y-SNP markers are known on the M9G background (Underhill et al. 1997, 2000, 2001b). Haplogroups carrying the M9G mutation (and additional markers that define sublineages of M9G) are widespread in Asia and account for 78.4% of all Y chromosomes in this study (table 3; fig. 2). For WNG, the proportion of Y chromosomes carrying only M9G and no derived markers (haplogroup K-M9) is small (_6% of the entire sample), and usually they were found in only single individuals from some populations. An exception is the Korowai/Kombai population, in which haplogroup KM9 occurs in _54% of the samples (table 3 and 4; figs. 1 and 3).
A search of the Woods paper finds that the words Fiji, M-M4, M-P34, and Melanesia do not occur in the paper,
Wood, E.T. et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” [B}European Journal of Human Genetics [/B]13 (7)867–876
To investigate associations between genetic, linguistic, and geographic variation in Africa, we type 50 Y chromosome SNPs in 1122 individuals from 40 populations representing African geographic and linguistic diversity. We compare these patterns of variation with those that emerge from a similar analysis of published mtDNA HVS1 sequences from 1918 individuals from 39 African populations. For the Y chromosome, Mantel tests reveal a strong partial correlation between genetic and linguistic distances (r1/40.33, P1/40.001) and no correlation between genetic and geographic distances (r1/4 0.08, P40.10). In contrast, mtDNA variation is weakly correlated with both language (r1/40.16, P1/40.046) and geography (r1/40.17, P1/40.035). AMOVA indicates that the amount of paternal among-group variation is much higher when populations are grouped by linguistics (UCT1/40.21) than by geography (UCT1/40.06). Levels of maternal genetic among-group variation are low for both linguistics and geography (UCT1/40.03 and 0.04, respectively). When Bantu speakers are removed from these analyses, the correlation with linguistic variation disappears for the Y chromosome and strengthens for mtDNA. These data suggest that patterns of differentiation and gene flow in Africa have differed for men and women in the recent evolutionary past. We infer that sex-biased rates of admixture and/or language borrowing between expanding Bantu farmers and local hunter-gatherers played an important role in influencing patterns of genetic variation during the spread of African agriculture in the last 4000 years.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: Clyde Winters is right.
There is something disturbing about certain members on this forum who question, reject and ridicule the oral chronicles of indigenous peoples in explaining their origin.
No he is wrong.
No one here has ridiculed anyone's oral history.
Winters dropped this bait precisely to make you respond defensively, so he can then exploit your emtotions instead of addressing the facts.
It's what he does.
You are new to this forum.
You will catch on.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote: search of the Woods paper finds that the words Fiji, M-M4, M-P34, and Melanesia do not occur in the paper.
lol. Nothing ever changes.
There is no understanding Dr. Winters without grasping his cynicism.
You're not *supposed* to check up on him. You're just supposed to defend his bizarre claims out of celebrity worship..... don't you know that? Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Private labelings of clusters of indeterminate origin notwithstanding, map shows the opposite of what Winters contends.
14 clusters are identified.
Application of logical comparison:
How many are shared between Africans and New Guinea but not found in Eurasians.... (?)
ZERO
How many are shared between Africans and Eurasians, but *not* found in New Guinea....(?)
EIGHT
How many are shared between Eurasian and New Guinea but not found in Africa..... (?)
TWO
This graph actually shows that PNG and African populations are the LEAST related.
This graph actually shows why it is *impossible* for PNG to be descendant from recent Africans.
But then, we are not supposed to *apply critical thinking* about how ridiculous are Witners claims.
Being useful idiots we are just supposed to look at pretty pictures and "agree" with whatever he says about them. Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
Rasol,
Your comments are noted with due regard.
However, I stand by my posit that certain members on this forum are dismissive about the oral histories of the indigenous people of a land unless it is validated by eurocentric scholarship. Please note that my position on this matter is not influenced by Clyde Winters' recent comments.
As concerns Fijians, I am only sharing with the forum what they revealed to me over 21 years ago. By then, I was almost 30 years old; and at the time rather pharasaical about facts and objectivity but indifferent to the reality that even those perceived as 'dull and ignorant' must also have their say.
20+ years on, I have developed an appreciation for the opinions of the 'dull and ignorant' because in the final analysis, it is their story. Let them have their say. What's emotion got to do with anything?
Respect
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
And how many peoples have myths about origins somewhere else? If a northern European group has legends about originating in a land across the ocean how many would agree that they are African?
As for Rasol, he explained everything that is needed. This is nothing more than a baited thread by Winters to perpetuate his African origin for anyone in the world who is black. Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
Blacks/Africans have never determined membership or affiliation to the collective based on skin tone alone. There is the matter of appearance, form, lineage and blood ties to the land. Therefore, it would be ludicruous for me to support or have sympathy for any position which argues that any people who are dark or black skinned in tone have African origins.
I have met and being acquainted with black skinned South Indians darker than myself but have never felt any affinity with them as a people of African origin. They were never black to me, and are not to Africans. They are Indian not Black/African.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: Rasol,
Your comments are noted with due regard.
However, I stand by my posit that certain members on this forum are dismissive about the oral histories
Fair enough.
Likewise, I stand by my posit that Winters is only interested in oral history that he can misuse to further his own agenda - and himself completely ignores said histories when they contradict his agenda - as they usually do.
As such - his use and abuse of oral history is cynical and biased.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Therefore, it would be ludicruous for me to support or have sympathy for any position which argues that any people who are dark or black skinned in tone have African origins.
I have met and being acquainted with black skinned South Indians darker than myself but have never felt any affinity with them as a people of African origin. They were never black to me, and are not to Africans. They are Indian not Black/African.
Ok. But note, these are the very people that Winters claims ARE AFRICAN.
This is his primary point.
If you feel the way you do, then you definitely do not agree with Winters, as you suppose.
Clyde Winters thinks that Meroitic text is and Indo-European script that comes from India and not Africa.
He formed a personal theory of langauge to support this view.
This is why he *must* call Indians - Africans.
His major base of support comes from India-centrists.
He works hard to keep neophyte African scholars confused about what he is actually saying and what it implies.
You will discover all this in due time. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Black and African are not synonymous terms hence its oxymoronic to state "black skinned South Indians" are not "Black."
Black? Yes they are. African? No they are not.
Relegating black to African is but a rehashing of the true negro myth.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ cosign. Patience is in order with the new poster. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9* while haplogroup M-M4 was not found in Africa at all.
This is not NRY confirmation for a Fiji-Africa match.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Agreed, and unless the migrants were all females we expect confirmation from NRY haplogroups too.
In the West Africa where Jo hails from they probably have a red vs black dichotomy even among born no foreign extraction Africans. In Senegal for instance, in privacy among themselves, a Wolof and even some Peuhl will laugh if a Tekrour calls himself black (Peuhl and Tekrour are both halPulaaren). Some West Africans are very jealous over whom they'll admit into the black category.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ cosign. Patience is in order with the new poster.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9*
K-M9* is also and upper paleolithic lineage, which much like maternal M* and N* is disputed for it's African or Eurasian origin.
Lineage K-M9* has low frequencies in Europe and Africa, is the second most frequent in Mongolia (30%), and was not observed in Native Americans - Y-Chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demographic Histories in the Americas Maria-Catira Bortolini,1,2 Francisco
Whether K-M9* is African lineage carried forth in the original outmigration 50 kya~ or and M-168 derived Eurasian lineage reflecting low frequeny non African ancestry in Africans - it cannot in either case reflect recent African ancestry in Melanesia.
For Y chromosome evidence of this - you must find E, A or B haplotypes, because these are the haplotypes that distinguish modern Africans.
This is how we can *know* that said populations do - or in the absense of the noted haplotypes - do *not* stem from recent African migrations.
Although Winters is cynical about many things - I concede its possible that he may simply not understand this particular.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9* while haplogroup M-M4 was not found in Africa at all.
This is not NRY confirmation for a Fiji-Africa match.
And why not, this is a y-chromosome haplogroup and even you have to admit that the haplogroup exist in Africa. Existence of the lineage in both Africa and Fiji supports the relationship maintained by the Fijians themselves.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:And why not?
This question was answered.
Dont' play dumb:
quote:Whether K-M9* is African lineage carried forth in the original outmigration 50 kya~ or and M-168 derived Eurasian lineage reflecting low frequeny non African ancestry in Africans - it cannot in either case reflect recent African ancestry in Melanesia.
For Y chromosome evidence of this - you must find E, A or B haplotypes, because these are the haplotypes that distinguish modern Africans.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
An 0.8% Afrisan and 0.1% Niger-Congo frequency for K-M9* is hardly supportive of a parental African child Fijian hypothesis.
Please research and note the frequencies of K-M9* among the world's populations then rank them.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9* while haplogroup M-M4 was not found in Africa at all.
This is not NRY confirmation for a Fiji-Africa match.
And why not, this is a y-chromosome haplogroup and even you have to admit that the haplogroup exist in Africa. Existence of the lineage in both Africa and Fiji supports the relationship maintained by the Fijians themselves.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Winters response when at a dead end: "I will say no more on the subject."
But then he starts new threads repeating the same dead end arguments.
The methods of the propagandist.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Private labelings of clusters of indeterminate origin notwithstanding, map shows the opposite of what Winters contends.
14 clusters are identified.
Application of logical comparison:
How many are shared between Africans and New Guinea but not found in Eurasians.... (?)
ZERO
How many are shared between Africans and Eurasians, but *not* found in New Guinea....(?)
EIGHT
How many are shared between Eurasian and New Guinea but not found in Africa..... (?)
TWO
This graph actually shows that PNG and African populations are the LEAST related.
This graph actually shows why it is *impossible* for PNG to be descendant from recent Africans.
But then, we are not supposed to *apply critical thinking* revealing how ridiculous are Winters claims.
Being useful idiots we are just supposed to look at pretty pictures and "agree" with whatever he says about them.
Posted by JMT (Member # 12050) on :
I've routinely read members on this forum say only "laymen" rely on wikipedia, yet at the same time consciously quoting sources from wikipedia when convenient to support a particular claim. Interesting double standard. So which is it, wiki is reliable or it isn't?
It's rather disingenuous and insulting for those to disregard the oral histories of Fijians without producing a shred of independent data of their own to refute specific claims. Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web as being 'accurate.' The real work actually involves traveling to the source to investigate these specific claims, interviewing Fijians, learning their language, learning their customs, composing and analyzing independent genetic material, etc. None of this is going on here, just cyber politics.
Science isn't written in stone. Things are subject to change. Perhaps the Fijians do have a direct genetic relationships with continental Africans. And maybe they don't. But how would anyone know what's accurate from inaccurate if they don't do their own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources?
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Don't have much time but this had to be addressed.
JMT wrote:
------------------------ Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web as being 'accurate.' -------------------------
And we all know who they are.
------------------------- But how would anyone know what's accurate from inaccurate if they don't do their own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources? -------------------------
Egyptsearch hero/idol worshippers (ie. forum lackeys) take note and learn from the above.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by JMT: I've routinely read members on this forum say only "laymen" rely on wikipedia, yet at the same time consciously quoting sources from wikipedia when convenient to support a particular claim. Interesting double standard. So which is it, wiki is reliable or it isn't?
The question is naive.
Wikipedia is only the name of a website.
it's not the name of and author, or a publisher or singular source.
Wikipedia has much information sourced from the brilliant minds of SOY Keita, and Chiekh Anta Diop, as well as Christopher Ehret.
Wikipedia has absolutely idiotic garbage posted from no name sources.
Wikipedia is just a word, not a credibility level.
One reason why so much really shabby thinking is found in many of these threads is that many really don't know how to think.
They don't know how to take information or sources in context or how to objectively and critically assess them.
Egyptsearch has seen better days when there were many highly intelligent posters and discussions one could learn from.
Now, there are many naive/laymen posters who keep discussion mired down at a 'baby talk' level.
Perhaps thats the future of this site.
It's boring having to explain the obvious.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but to me - these threads, are just dumb.
It means, frankly, that it may be time for me to move on.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Rasol
The day you leave this forum, Is the day that egyptsearch will take a turn for the worse. You can't let These posters chase you from posting. You have taught a lot of people valuable information. I understand where you are coming from, when posters make threads like this claiming any and everyone as Black, you are usually the one who is forced to correct them. Since these posters are really only about there ideology the ignore the truth that rips to shreds there views.
Talking to people like this can be tireing and annoying, but you do it for a reason. You try to make sure new posters are aware of the *REAL* truth and to not take these people serious. Trust me when I say that you have educated many posters and even though it may seem like a thankless job, we all respect what you do. Stay up Rasol.
Peace
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol,
I remember when I first read one of your posts at the old forum (Nilevalley), I was so afraid to say something because I felt so uneducated, particularly in genetics and the next thing I did was to order a book by Diop. You are the reason who opened to my heritage and helped a great deal which I am embarrassed to say here. And you were the corestone who led me to understand the "Western" Civilization, and the world we are living in.
I understand why new posters tend to attack you, because you are trophy for them, besides what would Dr. Clyde Winthers do if you leave us?
I don't think Dr. Clyde will be here testing his theories and subject somthing to other people who barely know nothing about Ancient Egypt history first, if you were not here.
You could do a great things if you start your own website and educate people like me.
A good start would be here http://wordpress.com/ (you can have your own domain also, eg. www.rasol.com. It costs 15 $ a year, otherwise it is free. There are a lot professional people who have their own website, and the only reason is of couse to propagate their ideas and ideologies)
Please don't waste this opportunity, for the sake of all of us.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
Rasol:
“Writing is Fighting.”
Ishmael Reed Link Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
EgyptSearch Ancient Egypt & Egyptology has died the death. It's spirit force alpha-jerked with Ausar's moving on. There was a wake but not a funeral and burial. Now hyenas and vultures are picking away at the unprotected corpse while the legimate heirs have no court to bring plaint and must chose the best course of action to incarnate the original ES AE&E modus vivendi elsewhere or remain here grief stricken and in shock unable to fend off the ultimately victorious carrion.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: One reason why so much really shabby thinking is found in many of these threads is that many really don't know how to think.
They don't know how to take information or sources in context or how to objectively and critically assess them.
Egyptsearch has seen better days when there were many highly intelligent posters and discussions one could learn from.
Now, there are many naive/laymen posters who keep discussion mired down at a 'baby talk' level.
The reason why so many so-called "stupid" threads are posted here is because of the fact of the nonsense that is regularly published in mainstream education, television and print which supports such nonsense. Until the educational system, television and print media is changed to tell the truth, then of course people will still have nonsense in their heads about the past.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The reason why so many so-called "stupid" threads are posted here is because of the fact of the nonsense that is regularly published in mainstream education, television and print which supports such nonsense. Until the educational system, television and print media is changed to tell the truth, then of course people will still have nonsense in their heads about the past.
I agree 100%
Also remember, most posters are younger students, searching a place in this world.
Al-T,
Please stop doomsday scenario, and it is not first time you say this. If you feel, you don't have nothing to contribute, then I suggest to be quiet .
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
For once I agree with the caterwauling SA.
This forum is full of intellectual lightweights who have problems related to thinking. As in they can't think.
They are the type of people that go around pulling on doors marked push. hahahaheeee
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Arwa wrote:
----------------- most posters are younger students, searching a place in this world. -----------------
Obviously with the level of intellect of these younger students, their place in this world should be inside of a special education classroom.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Finally, our limited genetic data from Tanzanians belonging to haplogroups M1, N1, and J suggest 2 alternatives that are not mutually exclusive. Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest "back" migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.
Several other times, I have pointed out that, just from the title of the paper "Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages," it is obvious that the study deals with the original "Out of Africa" migration and not with any recent migration of the type Winters claims.
To make sure, I contacted Dr. Gonder and she replied as follows:
quote: Date: Mar 17, 2008 9:34 AM Hi,
You are correct, we were referring to the initial migration of out of Africa. Cluster together....I haven’t looked at the tree in detail for some time, but as I remember, the TZ M formed part of the “basal” lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes. Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.
Hope that helps.
Katy
It is too much to hope that Winters will stop citing Gonder's paper in support of his thesis, but again the record is clear that he has no support in the refereed genetics literature.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This note from Gonder changes nothing, the good doctor continues to support a relationship between TZ and Oceanic genome as I discussed earlier.
Plus we don't even know the contexts of your question so we don't know exactly what you asked her. In addition, she admits that she has not looked at the data for some time.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Several other times, I have pointed out that, just from the title of the paper "Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages," it is obvious that the study deals with the original "Out of Africa" migration and not with any recent migration of the type Winters claims.
To make sure, I contacted Dr. Gonder and she replied as follows:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mar 17, 2008 9:34 AM Hi,
You are correct, we were referring to the initial migration of out of Africa. Cluster together....I haven’t looked at the tree in detail for some time, but as I remember, the TZ M formed part of the “basal” lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes. Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.
It is too much to hope that Winters will stop citing Gonder's paper in support of his thesis, but again the record is clear that he has no support in the refereed genetics literature.
This statement does not change the matter at all. First of all she makes it clear that
"You are correct, we were referring to the initial migration of out of Africa. Cluster together....I haven’t looked at the tree in detail for some time, but as I remember, the TZ M formed part of the “basal” lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes. Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. "
This statements supports my claim--not dispute them .
Let's critically analyze her statements. She specifically says that the TZ M formed part of the 'basal' lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes".
This reads to me that (1)the Tanzanians carry hg M today of African and non-African origin. (2) The non-African genome they carry today ,according to the good doctor is of "Oceanic origin".
This note does not take away anything from what I said. In fact it opens up additional questions like why do contemporary Tanzanians carry Oceanic genes if the two groups have been separated since the original out of Africa event of AMH 60kya.
The only answer can be that these genes found among Oceanic and African people probably result from the alleged Fijian migration to Oceania described by the Fijians themselves.
Also I noticed that you did not fully quote the good professors as evidenced by the "...." in her statement. Granted this was probably unimportant--but. Gonder et al can not change the information in the original article. Nowhere in her note does she deny a relationship between Oceanic and TZ M. As a result, I will continue to quote this source in support of the existence of a relationship between African hg M and Oceanic M, which is supported by Gonder's note.
If TZ do carry the ancient M lineages, this is significant news to me since I never read of the existence of these ancient M lineages outside Oceania. To date there is no mention of these haplogroups in mainland Asia, while they are found from the Andamen to Oceanic islands.
Interesting post Quetzalcoatl--but it changes nothing.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Quetzalcoatl
[QUOTE]:
You can dance, you can spin, you can fill the air with verbiage, but Gonder's paper does not support you contentions. Her conclusion is :
quote:We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.
To provide context: My question follows:
quote:Thank you so much for sending me the supplementary information for your paper. I have no idea why Molecular Evolution and Biology made it impossible to download. Unfortunately, they do not answer my basic question. Clyde Winters has been quoting your paper in support of his theory that the Mande migrated out of Africa a few thousand years ago ,i.e. "- BioEssays 29:497-498, 2007. writes that your paper supports his claims that Mande speakers migrated from Africa to become the Dravidians of India. Quote: " Anna Oliviera et al. argue that M1 must have originated in West Asia, because none of the Asian M haplogroups harbor any distinguishing East African root mutations. (30) They claim that the presence of any East African M1 root mutations in Asian-specific clades suggest a recent arrival of M1; and that the absence of M1 root mutations among Eurasian sister clades indicate a back migration into East Africa of HG M1. (30) Oliviera et al. claim that East African M1 root mutations are absent in Eurasian M sister clades is not supported by the evidence. (36) For example, Gondar [sic] et al. make it clear that the Tanzanian M1 haplogroup cluster with people from Oceania. In addition, Roychoudhury et al. noted nucleolides shared by East African M1, and Indian M haplogroups include HG M4 at 16311; HG M5 at 16,129; and HG M34 at 16,249."
Winters is referring to the following passage in your paper: "Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana- Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest ''back'' migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans."
I think that when you speak of Tanzanian M1 "clustering" with Oceania etc. the reference is to the initial Out of Africa migration not to fairly recent events. Is this correct? What exactly did you mean by "cluster together"
Gonder's answer again:
quote: You are correct, we were referring to the initial migration of out of Africa. Cluster together....I haven’t looked at the tree in detail for some time, but as I remember, the TZ M formed part of the “basal” lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes. Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Yes Gonder's response
quote:
Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.
If the genomes are of Oceanic origin they have to relate to a migration of Oceanic people to TZ which can not be supported by the archaeological evidence; or they are the result of Africans migrating to Oceania as claimed by the Fijians, a claim supported by linguistics, oral traditions and archaeological evidence.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There is also evidence from Arabian M clades that may support the Fijian migration tradition.
Abu-Amero et al, Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula (2008)
quote:
However, as a few M1 haplotypes did not fit in the M1a1 cluster we did genome sequencing for two of them (Figure 2). Lineage 471 resulted to be a member of the North African clade M1b, more specifically to the M1b1a branch. As we have detected another M1b lineage in Jordan [38], it is possible that the Saudi one could have reached Arabia from the Levant or from northwest African areas. The second Saudi lineage (522) belongs to a subcluster (M1a4) that is also frequent in East Africa [37]. Recently, Tanzanian lineages have been studied by means of complete mtDNA sequences [39]. Three of these sequences also fall into the M1 haplogroup. Two of them belong to the Ethiopian M1a1 subclade (God 626 and God 635), and the third (God637) shares the entire motif that characterizes lineage M1a5 [37] with the exception of transition 10694. Therefore, this mutation should define a new subcluster M1a5a (Figure 2).
The lineages found in Tanzania further expand, southeastwards, the geographic range of M1 in sub-Saharan Africa. Inspecting the M1 phylogeny of Olivieri et al. [37] we realized that our lineage 957 [38] has the diagnostic positions 13637, that defines M1a3 and 6463 that defines the M1a3a branch. Therefore, we have placed it as an M1a3a lineage with an 813 retromutation (Figure 2). It seems that, likewise L lineages, the M1 presence in the Arabian Peninsula signals a predominant East African influence with possible minor introductions from the Levant.
Inclusion of rare Saudi Asiatic M sequences into the macrohaplogroup M tree.
The majority (12) of the 19 M lineages found in the Arabian Peninsula that do not belong to M1 [see Additional file 1] have matches or are related to Indian clades, which confirm previous results [30, 31]. In addition, in this expanded Saudi sample, we have found some sequences with geographic origins far away from the studied area. For instance, lineage 569 [see Additional file 1] has been classified in the Eastern Asia subclade G2a1a [40] but probably it has reached Saudi Arabia from Central Asia where this branch is rather common and diverse [41]. Indubitably the four sequences (196, 479, 480 and 494) are Q1 members and had to have their origin in Indonesia. In fact their most related haplotypes were found in West New Guinea [42]. All these sequences could have arrived to Arabia as result of recent gene flow. Particularly documented is the preferential female Indonesian migration to Saudi Arabia as domestic workers [43]. Five undefined M lineages were genome sequenced (Figure 3). It is confirmed that 5 of the 6 Saudi lineages analyzed have also Indian roots. Lineage 691 falls into the Indian M33 clade because it has the diagnostic 2361 transition. In addition, it shares 7 transitions (462, 5423, 8562, 13731, 15908, 16169, 16172) with the Indian lineage C182 [20], which allows the definition of a new subclade M33a. Lineage 287 is a member of the Indian M36 clade because it possesses its three diagnostic mutations (239, 7271, 15110). As it also shares 8 additional positions with the Indian clade T135 [20], both conform an M36a branch (Figure 3). Saudi 514 belongs to the Indian clade M30 as it has its diagnostic motif (195A- 514dCA-12007-15431). Lineage 633 also belongs to the related Indian clade M4b defined by transitions 511, 12007 and 16311. In addition it shares mutation 8865 with the C51 Indian lineage [20] that could define a new M4b2 subclade. We have classified sequence 551 as belonging to a new Indian clade M48 defined by a four transitions motif (1598-5460-10750- 16192) which is shared with the M Indian lineage R58 (Figure 3). Australian clade M42 [44] and New Britain M29 clade [24] also have 1598 transition as a basal mutation. However, they are respectively more related to the East Asia clade M10 [40] and to the Melanesian Q clade [27], as their additionally shared basal mutations are less recurrent than transition1598 [45].
All these Indian M sequences have been found in Arabia as isolated lineages that belong to clusters with deep roots and high diversity in India. Therefore, its presence in Arabia is better explained by recent backflow from India than by supposing that these lineages are footsteps of an M ancestral migration across Arabia.
The Saudi sequence 201 deserves special mention (Figure 3). It was previously tentatively related to the Indian M34 clade because both share the 3010 transition. However, it was stated that due to the high recurrence of 3010 most probably the 201 sequence would belong to a yet undefined clade [31]. The recent study of new Australian lineages [26] has allowed us to find out an interesting link between their Australian M14 lineage and our Saudi 201 sequence (Figure 3). The authors related M14 to the Melanesian clade M28 [24] because both share the 1719-16148 motif [26]. We think that the alternative motif shared with the Saudi lineage, 234-4216-6962, (Figure 3) is stronger, as 1719 and 16148 transitions are more recurrent than 234, 4216 and 6962 [45]. Therefore, we think that the last three mutations defined the true root of the Australian M14 clade and relate it to a Saudi Arab sequence.
This quote makes it clear that several Arabian clades correspond to genome found in New Guinea and Melanesia (e.g., clades 514, 201, 1719-16148 and etc.). The authors try to explain this to the recent introduction of Indonesian female workers to Saudi Arabia, an Indian backflow to Arabia and Australian camel herders. This explanation does not suffice since we know 1) Australian aborigines did not come to Saudi Arabia as camel herders and 2)Saudi Arabians are Wahabbis and rarely marry non-Arabs. They usually marry cousins.
Finally there is no documented Indian migration back into Arabia, nor is there a relationship between Arabic and the Dravidian languages. As a result, the idea of a backflow can not be supported.
On the otherhand, the evidence of Indian and African haplogroups in Arabia, would support the archaeological, linguistic and anthropological evidence supporting a recent migration of Dravidian speakers out of Nubia, into India.
As a result, the presence of these lineages in Saudi Arabia, must predate the 20th century and may relate to the migration of East Africans to Near Oceania, and Dravidian speakers to India in the past 4000 years since they are not related to ancient hg M lineages--lineages that would support the presences of these genomes in Arabia dating back to the first exit of AMH from Africa 60kya.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^^^^Up
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^Pacific Island peoples have strong oral traditions, although since the time of *European influence* on their cultures alien elements have been incorporated into certain traditions, and some have been reinvented, such as the FICTITIOUS yet widely-believed story that Fijians originated in East Africa exposed by Geraghty in 1977. - Patrick Nunn, University/South Pacific, Suva, Fiji.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: EgyptSearch Ancient Egypt & Egyptology has died the death. It's spirit force alpha-jerked with Ausar's moving on. There was a wake but not a funeral and burial. Now hyenas and vultures are picking away at the unprotected corpse while the legimate heirs have no court to bring plaint and must chose the best course of action to incarnate the original ES AE&E modus vivendi elsewhere or remain here grief stricken and in shock unable to fend off the ultimately victorious carrion.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^Pacific Island peoples have strong oral traditions, although since the time of *European influence* on their cultures alien elements have been incorporated into certain traditions, and some have been reinvented, such as the FICTITIOUS yet widely-believed story that Fijians originated in East Africa exposed by Geraghty in 1977. - Patrick Nunn, University/South Pacific, Suva, Fiji.
As usual rasol, the European knows all in relation to your awe of Europeans. Since Europeans deny the claim it must be untrue in your opinion.
This may be your opinion, and that of your European gods, but the archaeological and linguistic data support a recent African origin of the Fijian people.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Like almost all your posts, the above makes no sense, as it is Europeans who fabricated this myth to begin with. You further it out of cynicism, but only naives and nitwits believe it.
The genetic data proves that Oceanan - are not - recent emigree' from East Africa.
Which is why you fail to address it...
Your linguistic claims are pure comedy since you claim Japanese, Dravidian and other non African languages come from the Mandingo, the Yoruba, etc..
You're a joke.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
quote: 3,500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the south-west, and from the north-east, Polynesians and Melanesians paddled their canoes to Fiji to settle in this new land.
What is the evidence for this claim other than claims? Linguistc genetic?
South West is Australia.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The claim is supported by West African place names, genertically related languages and genetic data.
There are genetic markers which point to a relationship between the Fijians and Africans. For example, haplogroup V appears in New Guinea, while haplogroup IV has been found only in New Guinea, Near Oceania and Northwestern most Micronesia according to Merriwether et al., Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific, p.159, in SS Papilia, R. Deka & R. Chakraborty (Ed.), Genomic Diversity.In Cordaux et al.,Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India, Eur. J Hum Genet (2003)11(2):253-264, in figure 2 notes that Clusters X1 and X are found in Africa and the Pacific.
Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Dr. Winters is apparently senile, as well as geneologically illiterate.
Why else would he repost the very data that further debunks him.... (?)
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Private labelings of clusters of indeterminate origin notwithstanding, map shows the opposite of what Winters contends.
14 clusters are identified.
Application of logical comparison:
How many are shared between Africans and New Guinea but not found in Eurasians.... (?)
ZERO
How many are shared between Africans and Eurasians, but *not* found in New Guinea....(?)
EIGHT
How many are shared between Eurasian and New Guinea but not found in Africa..... (?)
TWO
This graph actually shows that PNG and African populations are the LEAST related.
This graph actually shows why it is *impossible* for PNG to be descendant from recent Africans.
But then, we are not supposed to *apply critical thinking* about how ridiculous are Witners claims.
Being useful idiots we are just supposed to look at pretty pictures and "agree" with whatever he says about them.
^ note: Dr. Winters never responded to the above. Yet he stupidly reposts the same chart, which he still fails to comprehend.
You're a joke Winters.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Dr. Winters as geneologically illiterate laughing stock, contd. .....
quote:Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9.
Another redundant and stupid argument which has already been exploded.
Haplogroup K and its descendant haplogroups are the patrilineal ancestors of most of the people living in the Northern Hemisphere, including most Europeans, Asians, and Native Americans. Other lineages derived from Haplogroup K are found among Melanesian populations, indicating an ancient link between most Eurasians and some populations of Oceania.
Haplotype K cannot indicate recent migrations from Africa, but rather the ancient and common lineage of almost *all* non Africans.
Now please take your senility medicine and stop repeating stupid arguments that have already been refuted.
You must enjoy making a fool of yourself, but you have done great harm to this forum with unrelenting spew of redundant ignorance.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Dr. Winters as geneologically illiterate laughing stock, contd. .....
quote:Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9.
Another redundant and stupid argument which has already been exploded.
Haplogroup K and its descendant haplogroups are the patrilineal ancestors of most of the people living in the Northern Hemisphere, including most Europeans, Asians, and Native Americans. Other lineages derived from Haplogroup K are found among Melanesian populations, indicating an ancient link between most Eurasians and some populations of Oceania.
Haplotype K cannot indicate recent migrations from Africa, but rather the ancient and common lineage of almost *all* non Africans.
Now please take your senility medicine and stop repeating stupid arguments that have already been refuted.
You must enjoy making a fool of yourself, but you have done great harm to this forum with unrelenting spew of redundant ignorance.
No I enjoy making a fool out of you. This article was published in a peer reviewed journal. The peer reviewers who read tha article had to have checked the facts.
Your insistence that this researcher is wrong is invalid. It reflects your narrow mind and desire to live in a world of fantasy where you are always right and every one else is wrong. Stop being a foolish person and admit you are dumb and wrong.
.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Which journal was this article published in, what is the name of it and where does it say Fijians are recent migrants from Africa?
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
To me many Fiji Islanders look like African Americans. Like the mixture of predominantly African with European mixed in allowed for similar features to those of those Islanders. It's interesting how population mixing in one part of the world can create resemblance to people in other parts of the world.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The claim is supported by West African place names, genertically related languages and genetic data. Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
.
This was wrong the last time you posted it and it is wrong now.
K-M9 is not an African haplotype, see
Kayser, M. et al. 2003 “Reduced Y-Chromosome, but Not Mitochondrial DNA, Diversity in Human Populations from West New Guinea,” J. Hum. Genet. 72:281–302.
p. 289
quote:Haplogroup K-M9 most likely represents the common ancestor of the majority of non-African Y chromosomes, and many Y-SNP markers are known on the M9G background (Underhill et al. 1997, 2000, 2001b). Haplogroups carrying the M9G mutation (and additional markers that define sublineages of M9G) are widespread in Asia and account for 78.4% of all Y chromosomes in this study (table 3; fig. 2). For WNG, the proportion of Y chromosomes carrying only M9G and no derived markers (haplogroup K-M9) is small (_6% of the entire sample), and usually they were found in only single individuals from some populations. An exception is the Korowai/Kombai population, in which haplogroup KM9 occurs in _54% of the samples (table 3 and 4; figs. 1 and 3).
A search of the Woods paper finds that the words Fiji, M-M4, M-P34, and Melanesia do not occur in the paper,
Wood, E.T. et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13 (7)867–876
To investigate associations between genetic, linguistic, and geographic variation in Africa, we type 50 Y chromosome SNPs in 1122 individuals from 40 populations representing African geographic and linguistic diversity. We compare these patterns of variation with those that emerge from a similar analysis of published mtDNA HVS1 sequences from 1918 individuals from 39 African populations. For the Y chromosome, Mantel tests reveal a strong partial correlation between genetic and linguistic distances (r1/40.33, P1/40.001) and no correlation between genetic and geographic distances (r1/4 0.08, P40.10). In contrast, mtDNA variation is weakly correlated with both language (r1/40.16, P1/40.046) and geography (r1/40.17, P1/40.035). AMOVA indicates that the amount of paternal among-group variation is much higher when populations are grouped by linguistics (UCT1/40.21) than by geography (UCT1/40.06). Levels of maternal genetic among-group variation are low for both linguistics and geography (UCT1/40.03 and 0.04, respectively). When Bantu speakers are removed from these analyses, the correlation with linguistic variation disappears for the Y chromosome and strengthens for mtDNA. These data suggest that patterns of differentiation and gene flow in Africa have differed for men and women in the recent evolutionary past. We infer that sex-biased rates of admixture and/or language borrowing between expanding Bantu farmers and local hunter-gatherers played an important role in influencing patterns of genetic variation during the spread of African agriculture in the last 4000 years.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Which journal was this article published in, what is the name of it and where does it say Fijians are recent migrants from Africa?
lol. It doesn't of course. Winters is referring to a genetic study that contains the posted chart, showing that African and Oceanian are *not* closely related.
But he is too stupid [willfully so] to be able to read the chart, and I guess he thinks others are too.
Winters continues to make a fool out of himself.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:This article was published in a peer reviewed journal. The peer reviewers who read tha article had to have checked the facts.
Your insistence that this researcher is wrong is invalid.
Of course no one is saying that the geneticists are wrong, so this is just another in a long line of stupid remarks from our resident charleton.
We *are* saying you are too dumb and dishonest to understand genetics.
All you ever do is play dumb.
You even pretend to be too dumb to understand that we are not taking issue with the geneticists, with whom we agree, but rather with *you*.
Keep pretending you don't understand this.
Do you think we did not notice that in your reply -you edited out- the relevant explantion of the chart in question which demonstrates how stupid you are being?
You're a joke.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Dr. Winters is apparently senile, as well as geneologically illiterate.
Why else would he repost the very data that further debunks him.... (?)
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Private labelings of clusters of indeterminate origin notwithstanding, map shows the opposite of what Winters contends.
14 clusters are identified.
Application of logical comparison:
How many are shared between Africans and New Guinea but not found in Eurasians.... (?)
ZERO
How many are shared between Africans and Eurasians, but *not* found in New Guinea....(?)
EIGHT
How many are shared between Eurasian and New Guinea but not found in Africa..... (?)
TWO
This graph actually shows that PNG and African populations are the LEAST related.
This graph actually shows why it is *impossible* for PNG to be descendant from recent Africans.
But then, we are not supposed to *apply critical thinking* about how ridiculous are Witners claims.
Being useful idiots we are just supposed to look at pretty pictures and "agree" with whatever he says about them.
^ note: Dr. Winters never responded to the above. Yet he stupidly reposts the same chart, which he still fails to comprehend.
You're a joke Winters.
Posted by SEEKING (Member # 10105) on :
Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being the resident punching bag of Rasol and others?
Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being willfully deceitful?
Mr. Winters, what do you get out of being dishonest?
Mr. Winters, has there ever been a time that you have won an argument/debate since your initial appearance on this site?
Mr. Winters, I guess you have to put up this charade, because if you do not it will put your life's work in jeopardy/down the toilet?
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
SEEKING
You said a mouthful.
Peace
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Which journal was this article published in, what is the name of it and where does it say Fijians are recent migrants from Africa?
European Journal of Human Genetics (2003) 11, 253–264. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200949
Mitochondrial DNA analysis reveals diverse histories of tribal populations from India Richard Cordaux1, Nilmani Saha2, Gillian R Bentley3, Robert Aunger4, S M Sirajuddin5 and Mark Stoneking1
web page Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being the resident punching bag of Rasol and others?
Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being willfully deceitful?
Mr. Winters, what do you get out of being dishonest?
Mr. Winters, has there ever been a time that you have won an argument/debate since your initial appearance on this site?
Mr. Winters, I guess you have to put up this charade, because if you do not it will put your life's work in jeopardy/down the toilet?
I am not a punching bag. I enjoy reading post from people like you they indicate that you follow an ignorant person. You chose to believe whatever he writes even when the material is disputed by peer reviewed journals. You are sad indeed.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The claim is supported by West African place names, genertically related languages and genetic data. Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
.
This was wrong the last time you posted it and it is wrong now.
K-M9 is not an African haplotype, see
Kayser, M. et al. 2003 “Reduced Y-Chromosome, but Not Mitochondrial DNA, Diversity in Human Populations from West New Guinea,” J. Hum. Genet. 72:281–302.
p. 289
quote:Haplogroup K-M9 most likely represents the common ancestor of the majority of non-African Y chromosomes, and many Y-SNP markers are known on the M9G background (Underhill et al. 1997, 2000, 2001b). Haplogroups carrying the M9G mutation (and additional markers that define sublineages of M9G) are widespread in Asia and account for 78.4% of all Y chromosomes in this study (table 3; fig. 2). For WNG, the proportion of Y chromosomes carrying only M9G and no derived markers (haplogroup K-M9) is small (_6% of the entire sample), and usually they were found in only single individuals from some populations. An exception is the Korowai/Kombai population, in which haplogroup KM9 occurs in _54% of the samples (table 3 and 4; figs. 1 and 3).
A search of the Woods paper finds that the words Fiji, M-M4, M-P34, and Melanesia do not occur in the paper,
Wood, E.T. et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” European Journal of Human Genetics 13 (7)867–876
To investigate associations between genetic, linguistic, and geographic variation in Africa, we type 50 Y chromosome SNPs in 1122 individuals from 40 populations representing African geographic and linguistic diversity. We compare these patterns of variation with those that emerge from a similar analysis of published mtDNA HVS1 sequences from 1918 individuals from 39 African populations. For the Y chromosome, Mantel tests reveal a strong partial correlation between genetic and linguistic distances (r1/40.33, P1/40.001) and no correlation between genetic and geographic distances (r1/4 0.08, P40.10). In contrast, mtDNA variation is weakly correlated with both language (r1/40.16, P1/40.046) and geography (r1/40.17, P1/40.035). AMOVA indicates that the amount of paternal among-group variation is much higher when populations are grouped by linguistics (UCT1/40.21) than by geography (UCT1/40.06). Levels of maternal genetic among-group variation are low for both linguistics and geography (UCT1/40.03 and 0.04, respectively). When Bantu speakers are removed from these analyses, the correlation with linguistic variation disappears for the Y chromosome and strengthens for mtDNA. These data suggest that patterns of differentiation and gene flow in Africa have differed for men and women in the recent evolutionary past. We infer that sex-biased rates of admixture and/or language borrowing between expanding Bantu farmers and local hunter-gatherers played an important role in influencing patterns of genetic variation during the spread of African agriculture in the last 4000 years.
You have not read the paper or looked at the illustrations. I repeat Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The figure makes it clear that Africans and PNG share X,and Xl.This proves a relationship exist.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being the resident punching bag of Rasol and others?
Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being willfully deceitful?
Mr. Winters, what do you get out of being dishonest?
Mr. Winters, has there ever been a time that you have won an argument/debate since your initial appearance on this site?
Mr. Winters, I guess you have to put up this charade, because if you do not it will put your life's work in jeopardy/down the toilet?
He's just and egomaniac. He will argue that two plus two is five, and if you present him with picture of two and two and ask him to count it.... he will ignore the question, and repeat his claim.
You're a joke, Clyde. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The figure makes it clear that Africans and PNG share X,and Xl.This proves a relationship exist.
.
X -> Eastern Eurasia = 37 Africa = 12 PNG = 1 XI-> Eastern Eurasia = 17 Africa = 9 PNG = 6
X and XI are most common in Eastern Eurasia, not in Africa or PNG and therefore cannot possibly show recent African ancestry in PNG.
Anyone who can't see this is innumerate.
You're a joke.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:You have not read the paper or looked at the illustrations.
I have and so have you.
The difference is as follows.
- I actually understand what I am reading.
- I am not a chronic liar.
quote: I repeat Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9.
Actually Fijians share haplotype K with other East and Southern Asians and Melanesians, because K is and ANCIENT M-168 derivitive.
K shows that Fijians are descendant from Ancient Asians.... not recent Africans.
What they completely lack is actual African haplotypes E, A or B. [which makes up almost all of contemporary African haplotypes - and which therefore and by definition would make up the majority of PNG haplotypes *IF* they were recent descendants of Africans - which they are not.
^ Dr. Winters, all you offer by way of opposition is being too dense and dishonest to understand the obvious.
You're a joke.
Posted by SEEKING (Member # 10105) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being the resident punching bag of Rasol and others?
Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being willfully deceitful?
Mr. Winters, what do you get out of being dishonest?
Mr. Winters, has there ever been a time that you have won an argument/debate since your initial appearance on this site?
Mr. Winters, I guess you have to put up this charade, because if you do not it will put your life's work in jeopardy/down the toilet?
I am not a punching bag. I enjoy reading post from people like you they indicate that you follow an ignorant person. You chose to believe whatever he writes even when the material is disputed by peer reviewed journals. You are sad indeed.
.
I am actually following you with the hope that you will win a debate. I guess I am ignorant for keeping hope alive.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Unidentified Fijian man wearing (traditional?) clothing, photographed by Thomas Andrew circa 1890s
Vijay Singh (Indo-Fijian)
Fiji-born PGA champion Vijay Singh at a press conference on May 18, 2005, commented on what he said was a deterioration in race relations in Fiji, saying that for such a small country, people of all races should live together, put their differences aside, and get on with life. Relations between Indo-Fijians and indigenous Fijians had been more harmonious when he was younger, he said. -- Source
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The figure makes it clear that Africans and PNG share X,and Xl.This proves a relationship exist.
.
X -> Eastern Eurasia = 37 Africa = 12 PNG = 1 XI-> Eastern Eurasia = 17 Africa = 9 PNG = 6
X and XI are most common in Eastern Eurasia, not in Africa or PNG and therefore cannot possibly show recent African ancestry in PNG.
Anyone who can't see this is innumerate.
You're a joke.
This new post idicates that your earlier obtuse comments, did not reflect total ignorance and the inability to read. Your comments regarding the chart above have been absurd given the fact that it comes from a peer reviewed source. Your responses have been slow-witted--inane-- but now I see you can finally see the connection.
In your folly, demonstrated in your ealier responses indicated your credulity because the distribution of the relationship does not matter. What matters is that now you have stepped out of your deliberate ignorance and see that there is a relationship as demonstrated by the chart.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being the resident punching bag of Rasol and others?
Mr. Winters, are you not tired of being willfully deceitful?
Mr. Winters, what do you get out of being dishonest?
Mr. Winters, has there ever been a time that you have won an argument/debate since your initial appearance on this site?
Mr. Winters, I guess you have to put up this charade, because if you do not it will put your life's work in jeopardy/down the toilet?
I am not a punching bag. I enjoy reading post from people like you they indicate that you follow an ignorant person. You chose to believe whatever he writes even when the material is disputed by peer reviewed journals. You are sad indeed.
.
I am actually following you with the hope that you will win a debate. I guess I am ignorant for keeping hope alive.
Yes you are ignorant because you are following a fool. Following a fool leads to followers who are ignorant of the truth and reality.
If you were not following a fool you would have recognized that the debate was won long ago by myself.
First I demonstrated that the Fijians have a tradition of migration from Africa to Fiji.
Secondly I demonstrated that this tradition is supported by genetic evidence, linguistic evidence, place-names and genetically related languages.
Rasol has only shown a chart. A chart that does not in anyway contradict the chart I originally posted.In fact , the shallowness of rasol's reponse is vividly illustrated by the fact he offers no discussion of the charts he post.
The nescience of this simplton act, and its support by certain members of the form is a clear indication of the stupidity of these members who fail to have any understanding of the art of debate. You guys assume that just because someone you respect, demonstrates dilettantism, what ever he says is truth eventhough the response shows rasol has no clue to what he is talking about. Your support of ignorance is a clear indication of your lameness and adherence to a band wagon phenomena--which leads you to believe that if you support a veteran of the forum you are on the right side.
Debate is based on proposition and supporting evidence. I have presented multiple examples of support for my proposition. Rasol has presented a chart he does not even explain. You believe he wins the argument by making a proposition and failing to support it with abundance of evidence this shows that you are unacquainted with the basics of argument and prefer to live in darkness while you support a fool an ignoramus.
In the real world--not a fantasy world where people become cheerleaders of a fool, abundance of evidence during argument wins the debate.
I rebuke you in the name of intelligence and knowledge.
Aluta continua
.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
It's A luta continua. But your fight is useless as all your supposed evidence still is debunked if you cannot counter the vidence that is presented that contradicts the claim. Either you can give an alternate explanation as to why that contradictory evidence would exist, or your claim is tenuous at best. But when you ignore the contradicting evidence completely and just post the evidence that seems to agree with you (if even that) then you are just engaging in puerile debate for the sake of it because you obviously know you can't address those posts that contradict you.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Your comments regarding the chart above have been absurd given the fact that it comes from a peer reviewed source.
lol at your redundant stubborn stupidity.
i agree with the chart and geneticists who created it.
you are the one who disagrees with both.
this is because you don't understand genetics, and you are a charlatan and simply refuse to understand anything that debunks you.
you are a chronic self deluded liar who continues to argue that 2 and 2 is 5.
you're a joke.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb]
The figure makes it clear that Africans and PNG share X,and Xl.This proves a relationship exist.
.
X -> Eastern Eurasia = 37 Africa = 12 PNG = 1 XI-> Eastern Eurasia = 17 Africa = 9 PNG = 6
X and XI are most common in Eastern Eurasia, not in Africa or PNG and therefore cannot possibly show recent African ancestry in PNG.
Anyone who can't see this is innumerate.
You're a joke.
quote:but now i see that you finally see the connection
as usual, your empty rhetoric fails to address specifics and appears to be targeted at stupid people.
The issue is whether Oceanics descend from Ancient Asians or recent Africans.
You cite cluster X who statistics are:
Asia = 37
Africa = 12
PNG = 1
Cluster 10 is primarily found in Asia to begin with, and hardly found in PNG at all.
What you need to find is a cluster found only in PNG and Africa but not found in Eurasia.
But there aren't any, which debunks your claims.
This is why no geneticist agrees with you, and neither does any intelligent person frankly.
For that matter - neither do you believe your own claims, you simply have chronic need to lie.
You're a joke.
quote: The distribution of the relationship does not matter.
This is another stupid remark, since the whole purpose of the chart is to show different distribution frequency of 14 genetic clusters.
Of course the distribution of the relationship matters because your claim relates the -distribution- of populations.
You cannot address the chart without addressing distribution.
That you refuse to address the distribution of the clusters is simply another example of your *shutting your brain down* whenever confronted with any unpleasant facts.
You claim that the PNG population recently 'distributes' FROM East Africa, to PNG, and *not* from ancient Asians to PNG. [this notion is actually ridiculous and does not exist in any scholarly discipline outside of Dr. Winters bizarro-world cartoon thesis]
Therefore you need to show a cluster that exists primarily in East Africa and then distributes to PNG.
But there aren't any - because your claim is wrong.
Instead you cite clusters found primarily in Asia, which is even worse for you, as it implies the *opposite* of your claims.
But you are either too dense to understand this, or too dishonest to admit it.
And example of a distributed genetic relationship from recent Africans to non Africans is Benin Hbs, which causes sickle cell trait which provides resistance to malaria and is found in Greeks, in Italians, in Arabs, in Jews and other people who actually have recent African ancestry.
Yet sickle cell trait is virtually unknown in malarial PNG, as is every male and female lineage that is common among recent Africans.
These facts - settle this issue - and if you are too dense and dishonest to accept this truth, well that's your problem.
This is why no geneticists can support your claims, which are both false, and easily shown to be so, by anyone of normal intelligence.
lol. You're a joke.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Egyptsearch used to be and intelligent forum, before Winters and others began dumbing it down.
For any signs of intelligent life remaining on ES:
quote:The sickle haemoglobin gene has deleterious health effects in people who are homozygous. However, it does confer protection against malaria and has concentrated, with other protective haemoglobinopathies, in areas of the world where malaria is endemic.1 It is found widely in Africa, the Mediterranean, the Middle East and parts of India, and in communities of African descent in countries such as the United States and the Caribbean,2 but has never previously been reported in Papua New Guinea. This seems surprising in a country where malaria is endemic, where the thalassaemias are common,3-5 where there is a wide variety of G6PD variants6,7 and where Southeast Asian ovalocytosis (SAO) is also common. 8,9
Here, we report the first documented case of the sickle-cell gene in a Papua New Guinean.
A four-year-old boy from the Oro Province of Papua New Guinea was admitted to hospital with pain over the left upper abdominal quadrant after a fall. He had been admitted on previous occasions with recurrent anaemia. Red-cell indices were not part of the routine report from the provincial laboratory. The blood film showed sickle cells.
Discussion with the parents after sickle-cell/β+-thalassaemia was confirmed disclosed that the mother's grandmother was either African or of mixed Solomon Islands and African parentage. She had originally come to Papua New Guinea early in the 20th century as a missionary and had married into the local community. The patient's immediate pedigree is shown in Box 3.
Not really. ES was a forum dominated by rude posters who attack anyone who dares argue with them. You are not my mother. You are also ignorant so you have nothing to teach me so far.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Ad hominem whining does not explain why this chart shows 14 clusters, some of which are found
- in only Eurasians and Africans, and some of which are found in
- only Eurasians and New Guineans,
- but none of which are found in only Africa and New Guinea.
By definition, this makes New Guinean and African -least related-, which is consistent with all data and all scholarship - which contradicts you.
It is this fact that debunks you, and that is really what angers you, so instead of attacking 'rude posters', why don't you just try admitting the truth for a change.
PNG are not recent emigree' from Africa, and you know it.
You will continue being miserable as long as you force yourself to lie, out of egomanical obtuseness.
Solution: Try admitting the truth for a change. You'll feel better. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote: you have nothing to teach me so far.
^ Actually we've taught you quite a bit, if I recall correctly, without our teachings and our steadfast insistence on accuracy and honesty, you usually confuse male Y chromosome lineages with maternal X lineages.
You actually need us to teach you and reign in your atrocious habit of lying thru your teeth, and relying on preaching to and audience of 'simpletons' who never bother to check and correct your nonsense.
Of course you resent your teacher for disciplining you thusly, but that's par for the course, no?
But it doesn't explain why you are such a *slow* learner. Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: It's A luta continua. But your fight is useless as all your supposed evidence still is debunked if you cannot counter the vidence that is presented that contradicts the claim. Either you can give an alternate explanation as to why that contradictory evidence would exist, or your claim is tenuous at best. But when you ignore the contradicting evidence completely and just post the evidence that seems to agree with you (if even that) then you are just engaging in puerile debate for the sake of it because you obviously know you can't address those posts that contradict you.
Evidence is not debunked by rhectoric. Evidence supercedes hollow words. There has been no contradicting evidence. The poster publish a chart. The chart list specific genomic data. I publish a chart that also list specific genetic information. You claim this is contradicting evidence, yet, the author of the chart posted never disputes the substance of the researchers arguments. Moreover, the article I published was in a peer reviewed journal and anyone who has published in a peer reviewed journal like myself, know that the peer reviewers check the facts before the article is published.
Jaime, this is no way to conduct an argument. Evidence must be relevant , valid and somehow contradicts the work of someone else. The evidence presented so far lacks prohibitive value.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Winters writes: Evidence is not debunked by rhetoric.
Exactly, and that's why you always lose these "debates".
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The figure makes it clear that Africans and PNG share X,and Xl.This proves a relationship exist.
.
X -> Eastern Eurasia = 37 Africa = 12 PNG = 1 XI-> Eastern Eurasia = 17 Africa = 9 PNG = 6
X and XI are most common in Eastern Eurasia, not in Africa or PNG and therefore cannot possibly show recent African ancestry in PNG.
Anyone who can't see this is innumerate.
You're a joke.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: you have nothing to teach me so far.
^ Actually we've taught you quite a bit, if I recall correctly, without our teachings and our steadfast insistence on accuracy and honesty, you usually confuse male Y chromosome lineages with maternal X lineages.
You actually need us to teach you and reign in your atrocious habit of lying thru your teeth, and relying on preaching to and audience of 'simpletons' who never bother to check and correct your nonsense.
Of course you resent your teacher for disciplining you thusly, but that's par for the course, no?
But it doesn't explain why you are such a *slow* learner.
You have taught me nothing. Every statement you guys said about how I was wrong about this or that genetic information have been proven wrong. The proof is that I have published papers on these topics. This shows that your comment are illegitimate and reflect your bias and jealousy of my success.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Winters writes: Evidence is not debunked by rhetoric.
And...
quote:Winters pleads: Every statement you guys said about how I was wrong about this or that genetic information have been proven wrong.
^ Uh, that would be rhetoric.
Here is the evidence...
14 clusters, some exclusive to Eurasia and Africa, some exclusive to Eurasia and PNG, but *none* exclusive to Africa and PNG.
Why is this Dr. Winters?
Don't bother replying if you can't address the evidence by answering this question.
Any reply that is not and answer is a tacit admission that you are too dense and dishonest to address the evidence, so think carefully before you reply and make a fool of yourself once more.
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
Home Program Links Gallery Philippe's Message Melanesian Culture Melanesian NIUS Events Music Map
Melanesian Spearhead Group
VOM PROGRAM
Hello People of Melanesia and Friends of Melanesia, Please forward to your network.
VOM is Our Radio Program here in Sydney, Australia on 88.9FM and the only program in the Entire World that Unites MELANESIA. Unique avec la difference!
Program breakdown:
9.00pm Welcome music & Welcome to program 9.15pm Prayer by The Uniting Melanesian Lotu/Sydney 9.30pm Pidgin English segment (Raw!) 10.00pm English News (All Areas-Audio) 10.15pm French News (New Caledonia & Vanuatu-Audio) 10.30pm Bau Fijian News-Audio 10.40pm Hindi Fijian News-Audio
From Melanesian Tribal Music to Modern - till midnight or longer!!
About me: Philippe.(Father- Shefa Province, Vanuatu & Mother- Loyalty Islands, New Caledonia inside Melanesia)
VOM Now operating for the past 3 years and looking good!
MELANESIAN Educational for the World to know that we do exist as a Human Race. Melanesians originate from AFRICA via East Africa, India, Asia and into the Western Pacific... Papua New Guinea was our base before we migrated as far central as Fiji and as far west as the Torres Strait Islands and Cape York Peninsula on mainland Australia, including Our Kanaka South Sea Islanders of mainland Australia - descendants of the Melanesians of the Western Pacific taken into Queensland in the 1800's
The name MELANESIA was coined in 1832 by D'Urville in order to map the Pacific Ocean. We are a similar Race/National to Indo-Africans/Afrocoids/Negrittos....One People, Many Nations, Plenty of Languages!
My Melanesian Tribal Language is MAKURAAN I'm not English/French or Pidgin English educated, but I have to use these 3 Common languages to COMMUNICATE with the Outside World of MELANESIA
My vision is to UNITE MELANESIA and work very closely in the near future with the MELANESIAN SPEARHEAD GROUP (An Organisation formed in 1993- Head Office in Port Vila/Vanuatu. Melanesian Spearhead Group
Member countries: Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu & Fiji. Interested Members: Torres Strait Islands, East Timor, Autonomous Bougainville Island, New Caledonia and Aboriginal Australia. Your Face! Aboriginal Australia? Yes...Melanesians & Aboriginals of Australia originally come from AFRICA - Melanesians via India, Asia, PNG and Western Pacific. Aboriginals from AFRICA via INDIA and directly across to Australia. Their hair, language, chanting are similar to some parts of Southern India. So there you have it!
Hope by the end of 2008 early 2009 MSG will cover all these areas. The aim is to preserve THE CUSTOMS, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS of MELANESIA.
MINORITY/DIASPORA GROUPS IN MELANESIA: PAPUANS (Motu-Hiri) - Papua New Guinea + (600 Islands off the coast) ROTUMANS- Fiji Islands BANABAN ISLANDERS (OCEAN ISLANDERS)- Fiji Islands MICRONESIANS - Fiji Islands INDIAN-HINDI - Fiji Islands. WALLIS & FUTUNESE POLYNESIANS- In New Caledonia. ASIANS -In Melanesia CAUCASIANS- In Melanesia AFRICANS - In Melanesia. MICRONESIANS - In Melanesia POLYNESIANS - In Melanesia MIXED RACE/HALF CASTS - In Melanesia.
Contact Philippe philippe@voiceofmelanesia.com
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Educational for the World to know that we do exist as a Human Race. Melanesians originate from AFRICA via East Africa, India, Asia and into the Western Pacific. Melanesians & Aboriginals of Australia originally come from AFRICA .
This is true Jo.
This is relating the evolutionary African origin of the human species from 50+ thousand years ago. This is *not* what Winters is saying. He is saying Fijian are *not* descendant from aboriginal but rather from recent African emigree'.
And since you personally *deny* that humanity originates in Africa, why would you site this, which contradicts your anti evolutionary beliefs while also debunking Winters. (??)
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
quote:OrClyde Winters: You have taught me nothing. Every statement you guys said about how I was wrong about this or that genetic information have been proven wrong. The proof is that I have published papers on these topics. This shows that your comment are illegitimate and reflect your bias and jealousy of my success.
LOL Opinion papers are not the same as peer reviewed research. Something you have always failed to do.
Posted by Jo Nongowa (Member # 14918) on :
"Educational for the World to know that we do exist as a Human Race. Melanesians originate from AFRICA via East Africa, India, Asia and into the Western Pacific... Papua New Guinea was our base before we migrated as far central as Fiji and as far west as the Torres Strait Islands and Cape York Peninsula on mainland Australia, including Our Kanaka South Sea Islanders of mainland Australia - descendants of the Melanesians of the Western Pacific taken into Queensland in the 1800's."
Rasol:
Why would you draw inferences from the above quote thar the writer subscribes to evolutionist or 'Out of Africa' theories to explain his origins or humanity, in general?
By now you should be aware that I view as spurious and false the disciplines of evolution and anthropology, which serve other agendas than that of their stated objectives.
My opinion on the thread's topic is that the Fijians or Melanesians (Black Islanders) have valid claims to African descent in terms of historical lineage as it relates to ethnicity/culture, albeit centuries removed; and that their assertions should not be diluted with inferences that they are only credible because of a posit, which states that 'all of humanity originates from Africa'.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa:
Rasol:
Why would you draw inferences from the above quote thar the writer subscribes to evolutionist or 'Out of Africa' theories to explain his origins or humanity, in general?
Because that is exactly what they are relating:
Melanesians originate from Africa via East Africa, India, Asia and into the Western Pacific...
^ This refers to the southern land route in OOA theory and would have occured 50 + thousand years ago.
Winters is saying that Tanzanians made it to Oceania by sea a few thousand years ago, and are not related to indiginous Asians or even Australians.
You don't seem to understand the information you are citing.
Also you don't seem to be following his discussion very well.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^Modern humans emerged just once out of Africa - and headed straight for the beach - new genetic research suggests.
Most scientists agree that modern humans left Africa relatively recently, and it was traditionally thought that the route taken was northwards, overland into the Middle East and beyond.
But by measuring genetic variation in an isolated population in southeast Asia, Vincent Macaulay at the University of Glasgow, UK, and a team of international colleagues, conclude that the dispersal actually took a southern coastal route.
“It looks likely that a founder population crossed the Red Sea, and spread to Australia via India and southeast Asia, taking a southern route along the coast,” says Macaulay.
Original inhabitants Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) accumulates mutations over generations, so measuring differences between different human populations can estimate the time since they diverged from one another. The team analysed the mtDNA of 260 members of an isolated population living in Malaysia, called the Orang Asli. The ancestors of these people were the original inhabitants of the Malay Peninsula.
Comparisons of mtDNA between the Orang Asli and other sources from Eurasia and Australasia allowed Macaulay’s team to calculate that the first humans arrived in Malaysia around 65,000 years ago. At this time, the northern route out of Africa from the Sinai Peninsula across northern Arabia to the Indian Ocean was blocked by a desert, which early humans would have found almost impossible to cross.
“The southern route has been seen as just another route taken by anatomically modern humans out of Africa,” says Macaulay. “But we are proposing that it is the only route required to explain the mtDNA evidence.”
After reaching Malaysia, a group that would eventually settle Europe branched away, but the main dispersal group made a speedy onward journey to Australia, reaching it only a few thousand years later.
Ancient Australians The work clears up a question that has long troubled anthropologists: how did modern humans from Africa populate distant Australia long before nearby Europe? The oldest human remains in Australia date from 46,000 to 50,000 years ago, fitting neatly with the new genetics data.
The oldest European human remains, however, consist of an adult male’s jawbone, discovered in Romania and dated to between 34,000 and 36,000 years old.
“If the migrants had taken the northern route by looping northwards to Turkey to avoid the desert, then the question arises why they did not continue to Europe as well and leave ancient finds there,” says Peter Forster of the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research at the University of Cambridge, UK. “By default, the southern route makes more ecological sense.”
The southern coastal route might have made more culinary sense, too. “The change to the incorporation of shellfish in the human diet [suggested by earlier research] may have made the coastal route attractive,” says Macaulay. “It’s even possible that the motivation for expanding eastwards was declining fish stocks in the Red Sea at the time of the glacial maximum, around 70,000 years ago.” Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Archaeologists Find Evidence of Origin of Pacific Islanders By Heidi Chang Honolulu, Hawaii
March 31, 2008
The origin of Pacific Islanders has been a mystery for years. Now archaeologists believe they have the answer. As Heidi Chang reports, they found it in China.
China had a sea-faring civilization as long as 7000 years ago. Archaeologist Tianlong Jiao says, one day, these mariners sailed their canoes into the vastness of the Pacific Ocean, and stayed. He points out, "Most scientists, archaeologists, historical linguists and human biologists agree that today's southeast China, Taiwan and Northern Philippines, the whole region is the ultimate homeland of the Austronesian people." The Austronesians include today's Polynesian, Micronesian, Melanesian, and the indigenous people in Philippines, in the Southeast Asia archipelago, and in Taiwan.
He says understanding how seafaring technology developed in prehistoric China 3000 to 7000 years ago is critical in understanding the origins of Pacific heritage. "These people did not have a writing system, so they didn't record their own history, they had an oral history, but over many thousand years, the oral history is easily lost."
"Earlier researchers argued that the reason people first left China and crossed to Taiwan, is because over-population pushed them off the coastal plain of mainland China," he explains, adding that his research takes a different approach. "We're looking at environmental factors that may have contributed in pushing people [from the coastal plain of mainland China] to look for new land." He believes rising sea levels may have stimulated interest in a maritime way of life, and gathering food from the sea.
Rolett is now a professor of anthropology at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where he teaches classes on Pacific archaeology. "So when I talk about the connection between Pacific Islanders, especially Polynesians, and southeast China, then my Native Hawaiian students are usually surprised, and they say, 'How could it be that Polynesians have roots in China? We don't look like Chinese.' And then I have to explain to them that, 'Yes, they don't look like the people living in southeast China today, but the people living there 6000 years ago, were completely different.' -- Source
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^^ Good post Myra.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Reviewing Winters unaddressed pity plea.....
quote:First I demonstrated that the Fijians have a tradition of migration from Africa to Fiji.
^ This is unproven, as it is likely that this myth of exotic and non native origin of Fijian comes from European invaders, and not Fijian themselves.
Oral legend - per se - without supporting data - constitutes heresay and has little evidentiary value: doesn't matter whose legends they are - Fijian, or as is more probable here -> European.
quote:Secondly I demonstrated that this tradition is supported by genetic evidence
We have shown that this is one of your many lies, and can only be argued via genetic illiteracy. The very geneticist you site directly repudiate your claims.
You then have little recourse, but to proceed to argue with geneticts over their own conclusions pertaining their own study.
It's easy for you to argue with the geneticist since you don't understand the discipline anyway, however ignorance is not evidence, and arguing out of ignorance is only evidence of stubborness.
quote:Rasol has only shown a chart.
Several actually, all of which relate the same reality,
Oceanic are not closely related to contemporary African, they are descendant from ancient and aboriginal populations:
You were asked to explain why they all show that Melanesian and African are genetically distant from one another - the opposite of your claims.
You failed to do so.
Now here is answer from a geneticist:
There is more genetic similarity between Europeans and Africans and between Europeans and Melanesians, than there is between Africans and Melanesians. - Geneticist Alan Templeton
Note that Templeton is not referring directly to any of the genetic studies referenced in the above charts, but rather to his own.
Yet, what Templeton says.... is exactly what those charts show.
This falsifies your claims and ends this pointless argument.
Of course you don't admit this - but you never do, no matter how wrong you are, so that is par for the course for a charlatan.
quote: A chart that does not in anyway contradict the chart I originally posted.
All three genetic studies and all the data presented from them completely destroy your thesis.
That you are too dense and dishonest to admit it, is your problem.
quote:In fact , the shallowness of rasol's reponse
Actually your entire reply is sour rhetoric which still fails to answer a single question pertaining the data.
Empty rhetoric is all you're good for.
This is why other posters, who previously [supported you], are now openly professing their disappointment.
In turn this wounds your inflated ego.
So now you attack them.
But you underestimate them if you don't think they see thru this.
Your reply is really meant to salve your ego with rhetoric....not address the data, or answer their questions.
So it finally constitutes -one more disappointment-.
quote:he offers no discussion of the charts he post.
^ translation: You are begging me to teach you more.
I actually related the meanings of the data in detail, and of course you fail to address this.
But if you or anyone else has questions - feel free to ask them, but don't pretend that the answers have not been provided.
quote:The nescience of this simplton act and its support by certain members of the form
translation: More and more discussants are calling you out as a charlatan, and it's beginning to anger you.
quote: is a clear indication of the stupidity of these members
^ Rage rant. Hilarious.
quote: who fail to have any understanding of the art
^....the art of pseudo-science is what you have brought to this forum.
And this is what has become of it.
Winters: I can guarantee you one thing: the more you post, the less your credibility.
This is because you pile up outragious claims, and keep insisting on them out of egocentrism, no matter how manifestly absurd they are demonstrated to be.
It eventually becomes clear to most discussants that you can't help it, and that they should not take you seriously.
This is what you are venting against, to no avail, of course.
quote:You guys assume that just because someone you respect, demonstrates dilettantism, what ever he says is truth
translation: Bitter reproachment to other discussants from a self absorbed pseudo scholar, because he know longer has the passive-minded army of -followers- that he seeks.
Debunking you is not our goal, it is simply the inevitable consequence of seeking truth.
quote:Debate is based on proposition and supporting evidence.
^ Yes and note that your entire post is based on blowhard rhetoric and empty noisemaking with no evidence whatsover.
That's why you always lose these debates.
quote:Rasol has presented a chart he does not even explain.
You sound almost desparate - ie - begging me to explain.
Actually I already have explained all this data, but if anyone has a specific question, please ask.
That's fair no?
quote: You believe he wins the argument by making a proposition and failing to support it
It's more that you LOSE the argument, because you never answer questions about the data.
You still haven't. This long silly reply by you, that I am taking apart piece by piece just to amuse my self is a perfect example of why you lose.
It contains no information, no data, no answers.
It translates to:
Dr. Winters loses a debate and needs to CRY about it.
^ You're a joke.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Archaeologists Find Evidence of Origin of Pacific Islanders By Heidi Chang Honolulu, Hawaii
March 31, 2008
The origin of Pacific Islanders has been a mystery for years. Now archaeologists believe they have the answer. As Heidi Chang reports, they found it in China.
China had a sea-faring civilization as long as 7000 years ago. Archaeologist Tianlong Jiao says, one day, these mariners sailed their canoes into the vastness of the Pacific Ocean, and stayed. He points out, "Most scientists, archaeologists, historical linguists and human biologists agree that today's southeast China, Taiwan and Northern Philippines, the whole region is the ultimate homeland of the Austronesian people." The Austronesians include today's Polynesian, Micronesian, Melanesian, and the indigenous people in Philippines, in the Southeast Asia archipelago, and in Taiwan.
He says understanding how seafaring technology developed in prehistoric China 3000 to 7000 years ago is critical in understanding the origins of Pacific heritage. "These people did not have a writing system, so they didn't record their own history, they had an oral history, but over many thousand years, the oral history is easily lost."
"Earlier researchers argued that the reason people first left China and crossed to Taiwan, is because over-population pushed them off the coastal plain of mainland China," he explains, adding that his research takes a different approach. "We're looking at environmental factors that may have contributed in pushing people [from the coastal plain of mainland China] to look for new land." He believes rising sea levels may have stimulated interest in a maritime way of life, and gathering food from the sea.
Rolett is now a professor of anthropology at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where he teaches classes on Pacific archaeology. "So when I talk about the connection between Pacific Islanders, especially Polynesians, and southeast China, then my Native Hawaiian students are usually surprised, and they say, 'How could it be that Polynesians have roots in China? We don't look like Chinese.' And then I have to explain to them that, 'Yes, they don't look like the people living in southeast China today, but the people living there 6000 years ago, were completely different.' -- Source
.
While I do agree that the Pacific Islands are connected with South East Asia and Asia historically, I still think the so-called MYSTERIES of the origin of Eastern Pacific Islands is NONSENSE. Why is it a mystery? Because MOST Eastern pacific Islanders were KILLED OFF due to European diseases and warfare. Therefore, there AREN'T many full blooded Eastern Pacific Islanders left. Therefore, MOST studies that are trying to understand the origins of the people in the Eastern Pacific are only giving HALF or PARTIAL information at best. And a lot of these studies make it seem as if the Eastern Pacific Islanders were UNRELATED to those in Melanesia and Micronesia, which is absolutely ridiculous. So a lot of these studies need to be taken with a grain of salt. You cant just study Chinese maritime traditions and NOT look at Island South East Asia, which INDEED has been populated THE LONGEST of any part of Asia. You CANT skip over New Guinea and Melanesia and not study the ancient nature of those maritime traditions. Genetic studies aren't going to tell the whole picture because there AREN'T enough Eastern Pacific Islanders that aren't HEAVILY MIXED to use as a representative sample. Not only that, but those who are left today are CERTAINLY NOT representative of the ancient diversity in the islands as it was MOSTLY DESTROYED.
The so-called Polynesian look of today is really the result of RECENT European and Asian ancestry among native Pacific Islanders in the east, which makes up MOST of their ancestry in many cases.
Example of MODERN Hawaiian people (mostly NON Hawaiian):
But there are thousands if not millions of historical documents that record what the Hawaiians have looked like over the last 300 years, so there is NO EXCUSE for researchers to pretend to be ignorant.
LOL. Dougie. Where was the "Asian" look and where did it develop independently form those "Black" you claim were either displaced or dissapeared by admixture?
Posted by JMT (Member # 12050) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: LOL. Dougie. Where was the "Asian" look and where did it develop independently form those "Black" you claim were either displaced or dissapeared by admixture?
Back again for another beatdown, Mustafino?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: LOL. Dougie. Where was the "Asian" look and where did it develop independently form those "Black" you claim were either displaced or dissapeared by admixture?
YOU YOURSELF posted that the "Asian" look is not limited to Asia and developed among Africans A VERY LONG TIME AGO among some of the oldest people in Africa.
But this isn't about WHAT is or isn't the "Asian" look.
Again, you ask EMPTY questions because of YOUR OWN inability to address FACTS, including posting SENSELESS BABBLE that REFLECTS a LACK of THOUGHT in YOUR OWN BRAIN. Because YOU YOURSELF have shown how ALL FEATURES and ALL COMPLEXIONS ultimately DERIVE FROM BLACKS. But you are TOO STUPID to realize it.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Archaeologists Find Evidence of Origin of Pacific Islanders By Heidi Chang Honolulu, Hawaii
March 31, 2008
The origin of Pacific Islanders has been a mystery for years. Now archaeologists believe they have the answer. As Heidi Chang reports, they found it in China.
China had a sea-faring civilization as long as 7000 years ago. Archaeologist Tianlong Jiao says, one day, these mariners sailed their canoes into the vastness of the Pacific Ocean, and stayed. He points out, "Most scientists, archaeologists, historical linguists and human biologists agree that today's southeast China, Taiwan and Northern Philippines, the whole region is the ultimate homeland of the Austronesian people." The Austronesians include today's Polynesian, Micronesian, Melanesian, and the indigenous people in Philippines, in the Southeast Asia archipelago, and in Taiwan.
He says understanding how seafaring technology developed in prehistoric China 3000 to 7000 years ago is critical in understanding the origins of Pacific heritage. "These people did not have a writing system, so they didn't record their own history, they had an oral history, but over many thousand years, the oral history is easily lost."
"Earlier researchers argued that the reason people first left China and crossed to Taiwan, is because over-population pushed them off the coastal plain of mainland China," he explains, adding that his research takes a different approach. "We're looking at environmental factors that may have contributed in pushing people [from the coastal plain of mainland China] to look for new land." He believes rising sea levels may have stimulated interest in a maritime way of life, and gathering food from the sea.
Rolett is now a professor of anthropology at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where he teaches classes on Pacific archaeology. "So when I talk about the connection between Pacific Islanders, especially Polynesians, and southeast China, then my Native Hawaiian students are usually surprised, and they say, 'How could it be that Polynesians have roots in China? We don't look like Chinese.' And then I have to explain to them that, 'Yes, they don't look like the people living in southeast China today, but the people living there 6000 years ago, were completely different.' -- Source
.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
quote:Originally posted by JMT:
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: LOL. Dougie. Where was the "Asian" look and where did it develop independently form those "Black" you claim were either displaced or dissapeared by admixture?
Back again for another beatdown, Mustafino?
Nice try. Moderator assisted ccensorship is not a beatdown. It is just cowardice on the part of the resident debaters.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Actually you [Salsassin, Jamie, alias ad nauseum] are a troll, and have historically used conventional troll tactics, including extremely vulgar language, flame bait redundancies, and misrepresentations.
You do feign courtesy for awhile when you change to a new pseudonym - until you suffer another beatdown - and show your true colors.
Or should I respect your mulatoo-centrism and say....colors (s) (s) (s) (s)?
So in essense, Jmt and Charlie Bass and Doug and AlTakruri are right about you.
I pass this along to the uninformed, but otherwise will continue to ignore you - since it's clear that your primary goal is to feed off negative energy [anger] from others, and so assuage your own.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Oh please. Rasol you are the most pedantic insulting person on this board along with supercar and Djehuti. Your condescending posts, and disrespectful mode of addressing people in a debate leads to people responding in kind. Take your hypocricy somewhere else. Oh wait, you can't as you have no life beyond Egyptsearch.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Take your hypocricy somewhere else. Oh wait, you can't as you have no life beyond Egyptsearch.
^ said the banned troll and closet masochist, bitter as usual and back for another beatdown.
quote:Jmt: Back again for another beatdown, Mustafino?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ So Dr. Winters, I take it you have no further questions, and will stop making false assertions, and spreading "reverse Hamite myths" about the ancestry of the Indiginous Fijians?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Reviewing Winters unaddressed pity plea.....
quote:First I demonstrated that the Fijians have a tradition of migration from Africa to Fiji.
^ This is unproven, as it is likely that this myth of exotic and non native origin of Fijian comes from European invaders, and not Fijian themselves.
Oral legend - per se - without supporting data - constitutes heresay and has little evidentiary value: doesn't matter whose legends they are - Fijian, or as is more probable here -> European.
quote:Secondly I demonstrated that this tradition is supported by genetic evidence
We have shown that this is one of your many lies, and can only be argued via genetic illiteracy. The very geneticist you site directly repudiate your claims.
You then have little recourse, but to proceed to argue with geneticts over their own conclusions pertaining their own study.
It's easy for you to argue with the geneticist since you don't understand the discipline anyway, however ignorance is not evidence, and arguing out of ignorance is only evidence of stubborness.
quote:Rasol has only shown a chart.
Several actually, all of which relate the same reality,
Oceanic are not closely related to contemporary African, they are descendant from ancient and aboriginal populations:
You were asked to explain why they all show that Melanesian and African are genetically distant from one another - the opposite of your claims.
You failed to do so.
Now here is answer from a geneticist:
There is more genetic similarity between Europeans and Africans and between Europeans and Melanesians, than there is between Africans and Melanesians. - Geneticist Alan Templeton
Note that Templeton is not referring directly to any of the genetic studies referenced in the above charts, but rather to his own.
Yet, what Templeton says.... is exactly what those charts show.
This falsifies your claims and ends this pointless argument.
Of course you don't admit this - but you never do, no matter how wrong you are, so that is par for the course for a charlatan.
quote: A chart that does not in anyway contradict the chart I originally posted.
All three genetic studies and all the data presented from them completely destroy your thesis.
That you are too dense and dishonest to admit it, is your problem.
quote:In fact , the shallowness of rasol's reponse
Actually your entire reply is sour rhetoric which still fails to answer a single question pertaining the data.
Empty rhetoric is all you're good for.
This is why other posters, who previously [supported you], are now openly professing their disappointment.
In turn this wounds your inflated ego.
So now you attack them.
But you underestimate them if you don't think they see thru this.
Your reply is really meant to salve your ego with rhetoric....not address the data, or answer their questions.
So it finally constitutes -one more disappointment-.
quote:he offers no discussion of the charts he post.
^ translation: You are begging me to teach you more.
I actually related the meanings of the data in detail, and of course you fail to address this.
But if you or anyone else has questions - feel free to ask them, but don't pretend that the answers have not been provided.
quote:The nescience of this simplton act and its support by certain members of the form
translation: More and more discussants are calling you out as a charlatan, and it's beginning to anger you.
quote: is a clear indication of the stupidity of these members
^ Rage rant. Hilarious.
quote: who fail to have any understanding of the art
^....the art of pseudo-science is what you have brought to this forum.
And this is what has become of it.
Winters: I can guarantee you one thing: the more you post, the less your credibility.
This is because you pile up outragious claims, and keep insisting on them out of egocentrism, no matter how manifestly absurd they are demonstrated to be.
It eventually becomes clear to most discussants that you can't help it, and that they should not take you seriously.
This is what you are venting against, to no avail, of course.
quote:You guys assume that just because someone you respect, demonstrates dilettantism, what ever he says is truth
translation: Bitter reproachment to other discussants from a self absorbed pseudo scholar, because he know longer has the passive-minded army of -followers- that he seeks.
Debunking you is not our goal, it is simply the inevitable consequence of seeking truth.
quote:Debate is based on proposition and supporting evidence.
^ Yes and note that your entire post is based on blowhard rhetoric and empty noisemaking with no evidence whatsover.
That's why you always lose these debates.
quote:Rasol has presented a chart he does not even explain.
You sound almost desparate - ie - begging me to explain.
Actually I already have explained all this data, but if anyone has a specific question, please ask.
That's fair no?
quote: You believe he wins the argument by making a proposition and failing to support it
It's more that you LOSE the argument, because you never answer questions about the data.
You still haven't. This long silly reply by you, that I am taking apart piece by piece just to amuse my self is a perfect example of why you lose.
It contains no information, no data, no answers.
It translates to:
Dr. Winters loses a debate and needs to CRY about it.
^ You're a joke.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^Up
This is why Doug M believes all Black people look alike
.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: While some Fijians have a memory of African origin that does not mean that they all came from Africa. Many of them came from aboriginal populations of New Guinea, Indonesia and South East Asia as well.
They don't come from Africa. Their ancestors were stocks from Asia. If any migration took place, it took place from Asia.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: We all know that humans originated in Africa over 100,000 years ago. The issue is how much of an impact RECENT migrations from Africa had in Oceania as Oceania has been populated with blacks for over 60,000 years.
Thank you. Those lands been populated 40-60,000 years with various asiatic stocks. I don't know why Clyde Winters keep looking for a black history outside of Africa. Those people are strictly Asian though they are black.
Posted by JMT (Member # 12050) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
They don't come from Africa. Their ancestors were stocks from Asia. If any migration took place, it took place from Asia.
Then prove it. The burden of proof is on you. And please don't plagiarize debatable theories from anonymous sources from the web.
It's rather disingenuous and insulting for you to disregard the oral histories of Fijians without producing a shred of independent data of your own to refute specific claims. Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web and presenting it as being 'accurate.' The real work actually involves traveling to the source to investigate these specific claims, interviewing Fijians, learning their language, learning their customs, composing and analyzing independent genetic material, etc.
Nothing is written in stone. Things are subject to change. Perhaps the Fijians do have a recent, direct genetic relationships with continental Africans. And maybe they don't. But how would you know what's accurate from inaccurate if you don't do your own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
Fact: Melanesians are closer related to other Asian people than Africans.
Clyde:
This is primarily the argument against using phenotype as a tool in the ridiculous pursuit of race understanding. People from New Guinea look like Africans but ARE more related to Asians. This is why the term Negroid to denote race makes NO SENSE.
I am actually interested in determining if the Melanesians may have actually looked similar to Chinese people and then evolved into the more tropically adapted types we see today.
Here is my hypothesis: Tropical adaptation is an advance form of adaptation the same with Leucodermia/Albinoism. These are both extreme climatic adaptations from an original type that would be much more similar to Ethiopian people today. The East African people are not intermediates but rather the original type from which we have two extreme adaptations (White and Black).
I realize this lacks any source and very little evidence. The only evidence I have is the history of migrations. In this case I am referring to Blacks as in Bantu tropical adaptation.
Argument:
Considering that the Bantu people are East African derived and that their parent group from which they split are not as tropically adapted, does it follow that their tropical adaptation is a more recently evolved adaptation?
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote: I am actually interested in determining if the Melanesians may have actually looked similar to Chinese people and then evolved into the more tropically adapted types we see today.
Modern humans did not originate in China, nor did humans in China have a phenotype that matches that of today's pale Chinamen until recently in evolutionary terms, about 10kya.
quote: Here is my hypothesis: Tropical adaptation is an advance form of adaptation the same with Leucodermia/Albinoism. These are both extreme climatic adaptations from an original type that would be much more similar to Ethiopian people today. The East African people are not intermediates but rather the original type from which we have two extreme adaptations (White and Black).
Nope, as we can see from the following when our species homo sapien/modern humans, became human, they lost their fur, to be able to sweat, being that they were in equatorial East Africa their skin would have had to evolve(if pink) to darkly pigmented (black) to be able to provide the skin with enough protection from the sun. This is basic science anyone who denies it, must have a hard time understanding.
Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
quote:I realize this lacks any source and very little evidence. The only evidence I have is the history of migrations. In tis case I am referring to Blacks as in Bantu tropical adaptation.
Yes, this lacks evidence and is completely ignorant of OOA.
quote: Argument:
Considering that the Bantu people are East African derived and that their parent group from which they split are not as tropically adapted, does it follow that their tropical adaptation is an evolved adaptation?
Nope, completely wrong. Elongated Africans are actually extremely tropically adapted, while other Africans are tropically adapted, so in actuality East Africans are more tropically adapted than West Africans. Ancient Egyptians also shared these extremely tropical adaptation.
The difference in phenotypes is a result of adaptation to different climates a hot-dry climate, and a hot-humid climate.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Correct. The notion that tropical adaptation is either recent or extreme is anti-evolutionary, and is dis-proven by physical anthropology, and genetics.
Based upon the principal of natural selection, genetics, and skeletal anthropology tropical adaptation is the ORIGINAL and universal state of homo sapiens.
No geneticist or physical anthropologist will refute this.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote: Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
The logic that informs the above is quite clear.
It is amazing the number of people who will fight against it, because it somehow 'bothers' them to know that their ancestors were Black.
The reality of the dark skinned origins of *all* humans directly undercuts the ideology of race.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:asked in April 2008..... 14 clusters, some exclusive to Eurasia and Africa, some exclusive to Eurasia and PNG, but *none* exclusive to Africa and PNG.
Why is this Dr. Winters?
hmm. 6 months later, still no answer from Dr. Faker. Posted by Boofer (Member # 15638) on :
Can someone explain what these "tropical adaptations" actually are? Dark skin and long limbs? What about nose width? I often hear about drier climates proudicing narrow noses. Is that true?
Even still, I think it has also been mentioned that East Africans are not always those pointy-nosed folks...Some do not look much different from stereotypical West Africans and vice-versa, and there is great overlap.
Like what was mentioned in another thread; East African is not one common look. But, I'm still not completely sure which looks are almost soley indigenous, and which looks show great recent admixture from the arabian penninsula. I've heard that the Amhara have lots of recent admixture, but not the Oromo...And then I've heard that both groups do not differ much as far as admixture is concerned.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
"Yes, this lacks evidence and is completely ignorant of OOA."
No, I am well aware of the current theories and I am proposing my own for which I plan to determine if their is any evidence to support it. I am quite aware that I am going against the mainstream.
"Nope, completely wrong. Elongated Africans are actually extremely tropically adapted, while other Africans are tropically adapted, so in actuality East Africans are more tropically adapted than West Africans. "
So without getting hungup on semantics. You agree with my premise that West Africans evolved their features from a climatic differential between East and West Africa? The Elongated East Africans evolved into the Congoid people of today? Or are the Bantu people simply a mixture of elongated types and pygmy (not my premise)?
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by JMT:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
They don't come from Africa. Their ancestors were stocks from Asia. If any migration took place, it took place from Asia.
Then prove it. The burden of proof is on you. And please don't plagiarize debatable theories from anonymous sources from the web.
It's rather disingenuous and insulting for you to disregard the oral histories of Fijians without producing a shred of independent data of your own to refute specific claims. Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web and presenting it as being 'accurate.' The real work actually involves traveling to the source to investigate these specific claims, interviewing Fijians, learning their language, learning their customs, composing and analyzing independent genetic material, etc.
Nothing is written in stone. Things are subject to change. Perhaps the Fijians do have a recent, direct genetic relationships with continental Africans. And maybe they don't. But how would you know what's accurate from inaccurate if you don't do your own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources?
You're a fvcking idiot. I don't pull anything from the web. Fijans are primitive people and oral history is not reliable. Aborigines say they came from the milky way. That is their oral history. Fijans are strictly Asiatic people and they belong to Asiatic stock. I would like Fijans to prove they recently migrated from Africa. They did not. Their ancestors who came from Asia maybe had ancestors who came from Africa - like everyone else in the world. West Africans have all this great oral history of them being some advanced people who once wore clothes, had written languages, had gun powder, build large structures, and high tech boats. You don't find any evidence of these things. Only primitive people goes by oral history. Other people who have REAL history have records.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There are other genetic markers which point to a relationship between the Fijians and Africans. For example, haplogroup V appears in New Guinea, while haplogroup IV has been found only in New Guinea, Near Oceania and Northwestern most Micronesia according to Merriwether et al., Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific, p.159, in SS Papilia, R. Deka & R. Chakraborty (Ed.), Genomic Diversity.In Cordaux et al.,Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India, Eur. J Hum Genet (2003)11(2):253-264, in figure 2 notes that Clusters X1 and X are found in Africa and the Pacific.
Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
"The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]"
Climates change and as a consequence we have a green Sahara in recent history. People living in the green Sahara could have evolved until desertfication into the elongated African type. When the Sahara dried those that moved into more tropical environments would start to re-evolve tropical features. I don't know the term for that but essentially adaptations that are dormant still exist in our DNA and can come back out due to environmental cues.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Fact: Melanesians are closer related to other Asian people than Africans.
Clyde:
This is primarily the argument against using phenotype as a tool in the ridiculous pursuit of race understanding. People from New Guinea look like Africans but ARE more related to Asians. This is why the term Negroid to denote race makes NO SENSE.
I am actually interested in determining if the Melanesians may have actually looked similar to Chinese people and then evolved into the more tropically adapted types we see today.
Here is my hypothesis: Tropical adaptation is an advance form of adaptation the same with Leucodermia/Albinoism. These are both extreme climatic adaptations from an original type that would be much more similar to Ethiopian people today. The East African people are not intermediates but rather the original type from which we have two extreme adaptations (White and Black).
I realize this lacks any source and very little evidence. The only evidence I have is the history of migrations. In this case I am referring to Blacks as in Bantu tropical adaptation.
Argument:
Considering that the Bantu people are East African derived and that their parent group from which they split are not as tropically adapted, does it follow that their tropical adaptation is a more recently evolved adaptation?
No one turn from pale to black. Dark is natural; pale is not. You can be black/dark and become lighter even till you are pale, but the opposite is not possible. Mongols had to come from a dark people who hair was already straight. Nappy hair can't make straight hair. Mongols ancestors looks similar to the very population that's there today. The only exception is that their ancestors were dark.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There is also evidence from Arabian M clades that may support the Fijian migration tradition.
Abu-Amero et al, Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula (2008)
quote:
However, as a few M1 haplotypes did not fit in the M1a1 cluster we did genome sequencing for two of them (Figure 2). Lineage 471 resulted to be a member of the North African clade M1b, more specifically to the M1b1a branch. As we have detected another M1b lineage in Jordan [38], it is possible that the Saudi one could have reached Arabia from the Levant or from northwest African areas. The second Saudi lineage (522) belongs to a subcluster (M1a4) that is also frequent in East Africa [37]. Recently, Tanzanian lineages have been studied by means of complete mtDNA sequences [39]. Three of these sequences also fall into the M1 haplogroup. Two of them belong to the Ethiopian M1a1 subclade (God 626 and God 635), and the third (God637) shares the entire motif that characterizes lineage M1a5 [37] with the exception of transition 10694. Therefore, this mutation should define a new subcluster M1a5a (Figure 2).
The lineages found in Tanzania further expand, southeastwards, the geographic range of M1 in sub-Saharan Africa. Inspecting the M1 phylogeny of Olivieri et al. [37] we realized that our lineage 957 [38] has the diagnostic positions 13637, that defines M1a3 and 6463 that defines the M1a3a branch. Therefore, we have placed it as an M1a3a lineage with an 813 retromutation (Figure 2). It seems that, likewise L lineages, the M1 presence in the Arabian Peninsula signals a predominant East African influence with possible minor introductions from the Levant.
Inclusion of rare Saudi Asiatic M sequences into the macrohaplogroup M tree.
The majority (12) of the 19 M lineages found in the Arabian Peninsula that do not belong to M1 [see Additional file 1] have matches or are related to Indian clades, which confirm previous results [30, 31]. In addition, in this expanded Saudi sample, we have found some sequences with geographic origins far away from the studied area. For instance, lineage 569 [see Additional file 1] has been classified in the Eastern Asia subclade G2a1a [40] but probably it has reached Saudi Arabia from Central Asia where this branch is rather common and diverse [41]. Indubitably the four sequences (196, 479, 480 and 494) are Q1 members and had to have their origin in Indonesia. In fact their most related haplotypes were found in West New Guinea [42]. All these sequences could have arrived to Arabia as result of recent gene flow. Particularly documented is the preferential female Indonesian migration to Saudi Arabia as domestic workers [43]. Five undefined M lineages were genome sequenced (Figure 3). It is confirmed that 5 of the 6 Saudi lineages analyzed have also Indian roots. Lineage 691 falls into the Indian M33 clade because it has the diagnostic 2361 transition. In addition, it shares 7 transitions (462, 5423, 8562, 13731, 15908, 16169, 16172) with the Indian lineage C182 [20], which allows the definition of a new subclade M33a. Lineage 287 is a member of the Indian M36 clade because it possesses its three diagnostic mutations (239, 7271, 15110). As it also shares 8 additional positions with the Indian clade T135 [20], both conform an M36a branch (Figure 3). Saudi 514 belongs to the Indian clade M30 as it has its diagnostic motif (195A- 514dCA-12007-15431). Lineage 633 also belongs to the related Indian clade M4b defined by transitions 511, 12007 and 16311. In addition it shares mutation 8865 with the C51 Indian lineage [20] that could define a new M4b2 subclade. We have classified sequence 551 as belonging to a new Indian clade M48 defined by a four transitions motif (1598-5460-10750- 16192) which is shared with the M Indian lineage R58 (Figure 3). Australian clade M42 [44] and New Britain M29 clade [24] also have 1598 transition as a basal mutation. However, they are respectively more related to the East Asia clade M10 [40] and to the Melanesian Q clade [27], as their additionally shared basal mutations are less recurrent than transition1598 [45].
All these Indian M sequences have been found in Arabia as isolated lineages that belong to clusters with deep roots and high diversity in India. Therefore, its presence in Arabia is better explained by recent backflow from India than by supposing that these lineages are footsteps of an M ancestral migration across Arabia.
The Saudi sequence 201 deserves special mention (Figure 3). It was previously tentatively related to the Indian M34 clade because both share the 3010 transition. However, it was stated that due to the high recurrence of 3010 most probably the 201 sequence would belong to a yet undefined clade [31]. The recent study of new Australian lineages [26] has allowed us to find out an interesting link between their Australian M14 lineage and our Saudi 201 sequence (Figure 3). The authors related M14 to the Melanesian clade M28 [24] because both share the 1719-16148 motif [26]. We think that the alternative motif shared with the Saudi lineage, 234-4216-6962, (Figure 3) is stronger, as 1719 and 16148 transitions are more recurrent than 234, 4216 and 6962 [45]. Therefore, we think that the last three mutations defined the true root of the Australian M14 clade and relate it to a Saudi Arab sequence.
This quote makes it clear that several Arabian clades correspond to genome found in New Guinea and Melanesia (e.g., clades 514, 201, 1719-16148 and etc.). The authors try to explain this to the recent introduction of Indonesian female workers to Saudi Arabia, an Indian backflow to Arabia and Australian camel herders. This explanation does not suffice since we know 1) Australian aborigines did not come to Saudi Arabia as camel herders and 2)Saudi Arabians are Wahabbis and rarely marry non-Arabs. They usually marry cousins.
Finally there is no documented Indian migration back into Arabia, nor is there a relationship between Arabic and the Dravidian languages. As a result, the idea of a backflow can not be supported.
On the otherhand, the evidence of Indian and African haplogroups in Arabia, would support the archaeological, linguistic and anthropological evidence supporting a recent migration of Dravidian speakers out of Nubia, into India.
As a result, the presence of these lineages in Saudi Arabia, must predate the 20th century and may relate to the migration of East Africans to Near Oceania, and Dravidian speakers to India in the past 4000 years since they are not related to ancient hg M lineages--lineages that would support the presences of these genomes in Arabia dating back to the first exit of AMH from Africa 60kya.
.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: "The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]"
Climates change and as a consequence we have a green Sahara in recent history. People living in the green Sahara could have evolved until desertfication into the elongated African type. When the Sahara dried those that moved into more tropical environments would start to re-evolve tropical features. I don't know the term for that but essentially adaptations that are dormant still exist in our DNA and can come back out due to environmental cues.
Living in the desert have nothing to do with being elongaged. People look the way they do do to living and breeding amongst the same family/clan. Elongated Africans are found basically in West Africa, Central Africa, and East Africa with the exception of Ethiopia and Bantus.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The figure makes it clear that Africans and PNG share X,and Xl.This proves a relationship exist.
.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boofer: Can someone explain what these "tropical adaptations" actually are? Dark skin and long limbs? What about nose width? I often hear about drier climates proudicing narrow noses. Is that true?
Even still, I think it has also been mentioned that East Africans are not always those pointy-nosed folks...Some do not look much different from stereotypical West Africans and vice-versa, and there is great overlap.
Like what was mentioned in another thread; East African is not one common look. But, I'm still not completely sure which looks are almost soley indigenous, and which looks show great recent admixture from the arabian penninsula. I've heard that the Amhara have lots of recent admixture, but not the Oromo...And then I've heard that both groups do not differ much as far as admixture is concerned.
As explained, the difference in phenotypes is a result of adaptation to different climates a hot-dry climate, and a hot-humid climate. Elongated types are more adapted to hot dry climates....broad faced types to hot humid climates. Tropical adaptation entails- dark skin, longer limbs. Elongated Africans, in example East Africans are extremely tropically adapted and have longer limbs than other Africans.
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid”body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicatesthat the Egyptians generallyhave tropical bodyplans.Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clusteredtogether as compared to the other populations.
As for the admixture, note the following
The Story of Man
Carleton Coon
p 196-197
Borzoi Books, 1965
quote: Few skeletons have been found in the Sahara, and these are hard to date because of soil erosion. In Arabia prehistoric archaeology has barely been started. Yet we can be reasonably confident, until other evidence upsets the theory, that these deserts were the home of the slender variety of Caucasoid man. In East Africa this type has survived among the slender, narrow-faced Watusi and other cattle people.
According to Coon, the Tutsis represent an ancient "Caucasoid" man in Africa. But Tutsis have ~80% E3a according to published data. Tutsis are elongated Africans just as Ethiopians are. There is absolutely no outside non-African admixture in the Tutsis. Yet they display thin noses and lips. Which shows the diversity of Africa.
quote:....inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question include some of the blackest people in the world with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height.
C. Loring Brace Nonracial Approach Towards Human Diversity
Cited from The Concept of Race Edited by Ashley Montagu The Free Press p. 135-136
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
The logic that informs the above is quite clear.
It is amazing the number of people who will fight against it, because it somehow 'bothers' them to know that their ancestors were Black.
The reality of the dark skinned origins of *all* humans directly undercuts the ideology of race.
The 'ideology' of race is very real. We are not the same. Give up. I hate liberals.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Originally posted by Boofer: Can someone explain what these "tropical adaptations" actually are? Dark skin and long limbs? What about nose width? I often hear about drier climates proudicing narrow noses. Is that true?
Even still, I think it has also been mentioned that East Africans are not always those pointy-nosed folks...Some do not look much different from stereotypical West Africans and vice-versa, and there is great overlap.
Like what was mentioned in another thread; East African is not one common look. But, I'm still not completely sure which looks are almost soley indigenous, and which looks show great recent admixture from the arabian penninsula. I've heard that the Amhara have lots of recent admixture, but not the Oromo...And then I've heard that both groups do not differ much as far as admixture is concerned.
As explained, the difference in phenotypes is a result of adaptation to different climates a hot-dry climate, and a hot-humid climate. Elongated types are more adapted to hot dry climates....broad faced types to hot humid climates. Tropical adaptation entails- dark skin, longer limbs. Elongated Africans, in example East Africans are extremely tropically adapted and have longer limbs than other Africans.
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid”body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicatesthat the Egyptians generallyhave tropical bodyplans.Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clusteredtogether as compared to the other populations.
As for the admixture, note the following
The Story of Man
Carleton Coon
p 196-197
Borzoi Books, 1965
quote: Few skeletons have been found in the Sahara, and these are hard to date because of soil erosion. In Arabia prehistoric archaeology has barely been started. Yet we can be reasonably confident, until other evidence upsets the theory, that these deserts were the home of the slender variety of Caucasoid man. In East Africa this type has survived among the slender, narrow-faced Watusi and other cattle people.
According to Coon, the Tutsis represent an ancient "Caucasoid" man in Africa. But Tutsis have ~80% E3a according to published data. Tutsis are elongated Africans just as Etiopians are. There is absolutely no outside non-African admixture in the Tutsis. Yet they display thin noses and lips. Which shows the diversity of Africa.
quote:....inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question include some of the blackest people in the world with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height.
C. Loring Brace Nonracial Approach Towards Human Diversity
Cited from The Concept of Race Edited by Ashley Montagu The Free Press p. 135-136
Ethiopians are not elongated. They are short, small to medium built people. The women are short and curvy and the men are short, deform-shaped with no masculine appeal.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
The logic that informs the above is quite clear.
It is amazing the number of people who will fight against it, because it somehow 'bothers' them to know that their ancestors were Black.
The reality of the dark skinned origins of *all* humans directly undercuts the ideology of race.
The 'ideology' of race is very real. We are not the same. Give up. I hate liberals.
Ok...Let's play the game. Address the fact that Europeans are closest genetically to Africans whereas the original OOA populations. I.e Oceanians appear furthest away genetically from Africa, if Oceanians and Europeans are part of the same non-African OOA population structure, then Europeans should be as distant genetically from Africans, as Oceanians are. If this is not due to post OOA Neolithic migrations into Europe from Africa, then what is it?
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia.
Can you debunk or address the recent African admixture in Europeans that would make Europeans appear intermediate between Africans and Oceanic(non African) populations????
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote: Ethiopians are not elongated. They are short, small to medium built people. The women are short and curvy and the men are short, deform-shaped with no masculine appeal.
You're way too easy.... You have a lot to learn, but from reading some of your previous posts it seems you don't want to learn, but hey, you provide opportunity for others to learn, so you do serve some purpose.
Ethiopians are Elongated East Africans, period, just as the Tutsi, Somali, and Masai are. According measurements comparing them to OTHER Elongated East Africans...
Tutsi of Rwanda:
*[color=green]Stature: 176 cm * Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]
Masai:
[color=blue] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]
Galla(Oromo):
[color=red] * Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]
Sab Somali:
[color=gray] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]
Warsingali Somali:
[color=navy] * Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
Source:
Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa pg 142
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
The logic that informs the above is quite clear.
It is amazing the number of people who will fight against it, because it somehow 'bothers' them to know that their ancestors were Black.
The reality of the dark skinned origins of *all* humans directly undercuts the ideology of race.
The 'ideology' of race is very real. We are not the same. Give up. I hate liberals.
Ok...Let's play the game. Address the fact that Europeans are closest genetically to Africans whereas the original OOA populations. I.e Oceanians appear furthest away genetically from Africa, if Oceanians and Europeans are part of the same non-African OOA population structure, then Europeans should be as distant genetically from Africans, as Oceanians are. If this is not due to post OOA Neolithic migrations into Europe from Africa, then what is it?
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia.
Can you debunk or address the recent African admixture in Europeans that would make Europeans appear intermediate between Africans and Oceanic(non African) populations????
You're a fvcking idiot! Europeans share more DNA with Africans because they are YOUNGER! The oceanic people are the FARTHEST because they are just as old! DNA is a timeline you fvcking idiot. Their branch broke from the indigenous (original) population in a SHORT due time. I don't know what is the timing that separated the oceanians from the "original Branch" but it didn't take long. If that is the case, ALL the descendants from the oceanic branch who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock should share less DNA with Africans who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock. If I had a daughter(biological) she would match me 99.99-100%. However, if she has a child and it doesn't matter with whom -it could be with her brother, well anyway, if she has a child, and her child has a child, and her child has a child, and her child has a child, and so on....That descendant will not match me 99.99-100%. Depending on the generation (time) that child would match me less. It would be anywhere below that 99.99% The more generations away from me, the less matching. You're a fvcking idiot.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:If that is the case, ALL the descendants from the oceanic branch who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock should share less DNA with Africans who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock.
Yes Indeed, this would be the case, now you're learning, since Europeans are part of the original OOA population structure -meaning they descend from Oceanic populations, Oceanic's ultimately descend from Africa.
Indeed Europeans, as explained, should be as far genetically as these non African populations, but if you understood genetics you would know why they are not further, and are actually closer, which is because of the recent Neolithic admixture into the European gene pool. Genetic lineages which arose amongst Africans after the original OOA population left to become the ancestor of all non Africans, was brought into Europe.
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia.
Can you debunk or address the recent African admixture in Europeans that would make Europeans appear intermediate between Africans and Oceanic(non African) populations????
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:If that is the case, ALL the descendants from the oceanic branch who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock should share less DNA with Africans who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock.
Yes Indeed, this would be the case, now you're learning, since Europeans are part of the original OOA population structure -meaning they descend from Oceanic populations, Oceanic's ultimately descend from Africa.
Indeed Europeans, as explained, should be as far genetically as these non African populations, but if you understood genetics you would know why they are not further, and are actually closer, which is because of the recent Neolithic admixture into the European gene pool. Genetic lineages which arose amongst Africans after the original OOA population left to become the ancestor of all non Africans, was brought into Europe.
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia.
Can you debunk or address the recent African admixture in Europeans that would make Europeans appear intermediate between Africans and Oceanic(non African) populations????
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
This shyt you wrote don't make no fvcking sense. What I wrote makes genuine sense. I already told you why Europeans has more common ancestry with Africans and I explained why the Oceanic people don't. What you wrote don't agree with anything I said. It is another case of hocus pocus science. There was never an OOA journey. People broke off the main branch by family/clan. That is where phenotype comes from. Fijans did not come from Africa. They are an Asiatic stock. That is where their ancestral branch come from. LOL! If there is "recent" African 'admixture' amongst Europeans that is because they have "recently" 'mix' with Africans. If you are asking why do Europeans share more DNA that is common amongst Africans - I already told you that they are a younger stock. I don't know how many generations ago some European stocks broke away from branches that you find in Africa today. As far as Europeans appearing "intermediate" between Oceanic and African that doesn't make sense to me. If you are asking about DNA frequency I think I already answer that. It has all to do with TIMING. Can anyone really recap generations and where it began? Hmmmm...Just kill it! Take your Pseudo science and shove it.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:If that is the case, ALL the descendants from the oceanic branch who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock should share less DNA with Africans who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock.
Yes Indeed, this would be the case, now you're learning, since Europeans are part of the original OOA population structure -meaning they descend from Oceanic populations, Oceanic's ultimately descend from Africa.
Indeed Europeans, as explained, should be as far genetically as these non African populations, but if you understood genetics you would know why they are not further, and are actually closer, which is because of the recent Neolithic admixture into the European gene pool. Genetic lineages which arose amongst Africans after the original OOA population left to become the ancestor of all non Africans, was brought into Europe.
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia.
Can you debunk or address the recent African admixture in Europeans that would make Europeans appear intermediate between Africans and Oceanic(non African) populations????
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
This shyt you wrote don't make no fvcking sense. What I wrote makes genuine sense. I already told you why Europeans has more common ancestry with Africans and I explained why the Oceanic people don't. What you wrote don't agree with anything thing I said. It is another case of hocus pocus science. There was never an OOA journey. People broke of the main branch by family/clan. That is where phenotype comes from. Fijans did not come from Africa. They are an Asiatic stock. That is where their ancestral branch come from. Just kill it!
You're disagreement with OOA will not make it wrong, all non-Africans (Oceanics, Asians, Europeans etc..) carry a sub-set of East African genes. This occurred from the original OOA populations migrating from Africa. Fijians descend from the same population that all Non-Africans(Oceanics, Asians, Europeans etc..) descend from. Europeans, as explained, should be as far genetically as these other non African populations, from Africans, since Europeans are resultant of populations descending from Oceanics......
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
This means a lot and is why it makes you so mad. Europeans do not appear closer to Africans because they are younger. Europeans, like all non Africans descend from the same OOA population. This would put Europeans , as far genetically as Oceanics or Asians etc.. if they didn't receive post OOA lineages.
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia. All post OOA lineages.
Posted by JMT (Member # 12050) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by JMT:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
They don't come from Africa. Their ancestors were stocks from Asia. If any migration took place, it took place from Asia.
Then prove it. The burden of proof is on you. And please don't plagiarize debatable theories from anonymous sources from the web.
It's rather disingenuous and insulting for you to disregard the oral histories of Fijians without producing a shred of independent data of your own to refute specific claims. Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web and presenting it as being 'accurate.' The real work actually involves traveling to the source to investigate these specific claims, interviewing Fijians, learning their language, learning their customs, composing and analyzing independent genetic material, etc.
Nothing is written in stone. Things are subject to change. Perhaps the Fijians do have a recent, direct genetic relationships with continental Africans. And maybe they don't. But how would you know what's accurate from inaccurate if you don't do your own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources?
You're a fvcking idiot. I don't pull anything from the web. Fijans are primitive people and oral history is not reliable. Aborigines say they came from the milky way. That is their oral history. Fijans are strictly Asiatic people and they belong to Asiatic stock. I would like Fijans to prove they recently migrated from Africa. They did not. Their ancestors who came from Asia maybe had ancestors who came from Africa - like everyone else in the world. West Africans have all this great oral history of them being some advanced people who once wore clothes, had written languages, had gun powder, build large structures, and high tech boats. You don't find any evidence of these things. Only primitive people goes by oral history. Other people who have REAL history have records.
If you don't "pull" anything from the web then cite your sources. Your ignorant opinion and guess work is irrelevant.
How do you know Fijian oral history is "unreliable", because you say so? What investigation have YOU done into this matter? Have you bothered to study their language and customs, yes or no? Are you a linguist? What qualifies YOU to say Fijian oral history is false?
You just insulted a number of African tribes that have a tradition of oral history. Various African tribes from every corner of the continent have used oral history to some extent. If I didn't know better I would assume you are white. If you are black then you're a pitiful example why some Africans have an unfavorable opinion of AAs. Interesting you used West Africa only as a model when it's clear a number of African tribes from north to south, east and west have used oral histories.
You failed to answer my initial question; prove Fijian oral history is false. The burden of proof is on you since you believe the Fijians are "primitive".
Lastly, be careful who you call an idiot. I've seen a number of members use rather unfavorable verbs in reference to you.
Prove : to learn or find out by experience 2 a: to test the truth, validity, or genuineness of <the exception proves the rule> <prove a will at probate> b: to test the worth or quality of ; specifically : to compare against a standard —sometimes used with up or out c: to check the correctness of (as an arithmetic result) 3 a: to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic) <prove a theorem> <the charges were never proved in court> b: to demonstrate as having a particular quality or worth <the vaccine has been proven effective after years of tests> <proved herself a great actress>
Have you done any of the above, Bettyboo? If not STFU!
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Fact: Melanesians are closer related to other Asian people than Africans.
Clyde:
This is primarily the argument against using phenotype as a tool in the ridiculous pursuit of race understanding. People from New Guinea look like Africans but ARE more related to Asians. This is why the term Negroid to denote race makes NO SENSE.
I am actually interested in determining if the Melanesians may have actually looked similar to Chinese people and then evolved into the more tropically adapted types we see today.
Here is my hypothesis: Tropical adaptation is an advance form of adaptation the same with Leucodermia/Albinoism. These are both extreme climatic adaptations from an original type that would be much more similar to Ethiopian people today. The East African people are not intermediates but rather the original type from which we have two extreme adaptations (White and Black).
I realize this lacks any source and very little evidence. The only evidence I have is the history of migrations. In this case I am referring to Blacks as in Bantu tropical adaptation.
Argument:
Considering that the Bantu people are East African derived and that their parent group from which they split are not as tropically adapted, does it follow that their tropical adaptation is a more recently evolved adaptation?
No one turn from pale to black. Dark is natural; pale is not. You can be black/dark and become lighter even till you are pale, but the opposite is not possible. Mongols had to come from a dark people who hair was already straight. Nappy hair can't make straight hair. Mongols ancestors looks similar to the very population that's there today. The only exception is that their ancestors were dark.
At least cite me a source else you are just wasting you time with giving me your opinion to undermine my hypothesis.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
JMT wrote:
------------------------- If I didn't know better I would assume you are white. If you are black then you're a pitiful example why some Africans have an unfavorable opinion of AAs. -------------------------
Man use your brain. Of course he's white. Its vida aka wolofi aka "the ointment man". He uses the same schtick.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
The logic that informs the above is quite clear.
It is amazing the number of people who will fight against it, because it somehow 'bothers' them to know that their ancestors were Black.
The reality of the dark skinned origins of *all* humans directly undercuts the ideology of race.
The 'ideology' of race is very real. We are not the same. Give up. I hate liberals.
How do you see race? Is it by the way someone looks or is it by their lineage? Can it be both?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ I see it as a pseudo-scientific ideology.
You might as well ask me if UFO's are from outer space or from another dimension....or both.
Posted by meninarmer (Member # 12654) on :
^ This is because you are subject to a skewed perception and have absolutely no understanding of physics. The ancient Egyptians did and the significance of the Universal Cosmic Color, Black.
BettyBoo (Hammer), he/she has even less of a clue, but sees racial differences according to the European OCA induced, optically distorted worldview primed by, fear.
Posted by Hibbah (Member # 12156) on :
what the HELL.
Bettyboo posts in this section? ROFL. Wow, her spelling and grammar are much better here:
Bettyboo Member Member # 12987
Rate Member Icon 1 posted 02 November, 2008 06:53 PM Profile for Bettyboo Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
You dumb fvck. There are no christians who commit violent acts on God's behalf. Any christian who commit a violent act is sinning agaisnt the faith. Do christian Sin - Yes; Do christian sin on the behalf of God or in Christ's name - Hell No! Can't same the same about muslimes.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I see it as a pseudo-scientific ideology.
You might as well ask me if UFO's are from outer space or from another dimension....or both.
quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: ^ This is because you are subject to a skewed perception and have absolutely no understanding of physics.
^ lol at your usual incoherent response.
-> "This is because" (??)
What noun is referenced by your use of 'this'.
If I try to read past your incoherence, it would appear that you are expressing a belief in UFO's?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I see it as a pseudo-scientific ideology.
You might as well ask me if UFO's are from outer space or from another dimension....or both.
I do agree with you. RACE as we understand it was designed as a strategy of conquest.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: ^ This is because you are subject to a skewed perception and have absolutely no understanding of physics. The ancient Egyptians did and the significance of the Universal Cosmic Color, Black.
BettyBoo (Hammer), he/she has even less of a clue, but sees racial differences according to the European OCA induced, optically distorted worldview primed by, fear.
This so true. That is why the Indians talk about Kar (Black) and Ma (Great). The Great Blackness which invigorates and denotes our existence.
.
Posted by HistoryFacelift (Member # 14696) on :
So....
Is Bettyboo the new village idiot?
Posted by HistoryFacelift (Member # 14696) on :
So....
Is Bettyboo the new village idiot?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Haplotype X(hX) is found among people of Tanzania and Chad. Shimada et al argue that X(hX) is found in Melanesia.
Makoto K. Shimada*, , Karuna Panchapakesan , Sarah A. Tishkoff , Alejandro Q. Nato, Jr* and Jody HeY, Divergent Haplotypes and Human History as Revealed in a Worldwide Survey of X-Linked DNA Sequence Variation, Molecular Biology and Evolution 2007 24(3):687-698
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
We also find hg N1 in Oceania. The N1 hg is also found in Tanzania.
This is in addition to Cordaux et al (2003) who claimed that HV1 sequences of mtDNA clusters X and X1 are shared between Africans and Oceanians.
It is interesting that X(hX) and hg N1 are found in Tanzania and Oceania because the Fijians claim they original came from Tanzania to settle Fiji.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ There's evidence of Melanesians in New Guinea that is over 50Ky. So I am not following you Clyde even if I find your books entertaining. If you claim the Luiza was a Melanesian then I understand your point. Claiming that they are African is about as useful as claiming that Europeans are African - oh wait - you do.
LOL!
One big happy family.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Many researchers fail to recognize that there is a craniometric difference between Australoids /Australians representatives of the OOA population, Mongoloids and Melanoids; craniometric differences that indicate two migrations of the Black Variety into the Pacific and East Asia.
Tsuenehiko Hanihare discussed the phenotypic variations between these populations(1). Tsuenehiko classified these people into three major populations Southeast Asian Mongoloids (Polynesians), the Australians or Austroloid type and the Nicobar and Andaman (Melanoid) samples which he found lie between the predominately Southeast Asian and Australoid/Australian type (1).
The Australian aborigines and Melanesians show cranonical variates and represent two distinct Black populations(2).[/] The Australoids or Australians live mainly in Australia and the highland regions of Oceania, the Melanoid people on the otherhand live in the coastal regions of Near Oceania and Fiji. D.J de Laubenfels discussed the variety of Blacks found in Asia.[b] Laubenfiels explained that Negroids/Melanoids such as the Tasmanians are characterized by wooly black hair and sparse body hair (2). Australoids or Australians on the otherhand have curly, wavy or straight hair and abundant body hair. Other differences between these Black populations include Negroid / Melanoid brows being vertical and without eyebrow ridges, whereas Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges (2).
This led M. Pietrusewky to recognize two separate colonizations of the Pacific by morphologically distinct populations one Polynesian and the other Melanesian (3). Pietrusewky’s research indicates a clear separation between the Australian-Melanesian crania and the Polynesian crania (3). The findings indicate an origin for the Polynesians in Southeast Asia (3-5), and an early Australo-Melanesian presence in East Asia as discussed in the earlier comment.
Laubenfels argues that the Australians are remnants of the original African migration to the region 60kya (2). This view is supported by David Bulbeck who found that the Australian craniometrics are different from the Mongoloid (Polynesian), and Melanoid crania metrics (4). This research indicates that whereas Australian aborigine crania agree with the archaic population of Asia and first group of Africans to exit Africa, they fail to correspond to the Sahulland crania which are distinctly of Southwest Pacific or Melanoid affinity (2,4). This suggests that by the rise of Sahulland there were two distinct Black populations in Asia one Austroloid and the other Melanoid (4).
The Melanesian type does not appear in East Asia (Siberia) until after 5000 BC. This is thousands of years after Luizia and Eva Neharon had existed in Brazil and Mexico respectively.
By the Neolithic the Melanoids or Papuans are associated with millet cultivation at Yangshao and Lougshan according to Pietrusewky’s work (5). Tsang argues that the probable homeland of the Austronesian speakers was the Pearl River delta, here the Melanoid people cultivated millet (6). Sagart believes that there is a Proto-Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian family of languages based on the millet culture the Melanoids introduced to China (7). The craniometrics make it clear the Australians are not related to the Melanesians.
Reference:
1. Tsunehiko Hanihare, Interpretation of craniofacial variations and diversification of East and Southeast Asia. In Bioarchaeology of Southeast Asia. (Eds.) Marc Oxenhan and Nancy Tayles (pp.91-111). Cambridge, 2005.
2. D.J. Laubenfels, Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions. Annals Association of Am. Geographers, 58(1), 1968: 42-50.
3. Michael Pietrusewky, A multivariate craniometric study of the prehistoric and modern inhabitants of Southeast Asia, East Asia and surrounding regions:A human kaleidoscope. Cambridge Studies in Biological and Evolutionary Anthropology, No. 43, 2006: 59-90.
5. M. Pietrusewsky, The Physical anthropology of the Pacific, East Asia: A multivariate craniometric analysis. . In L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (Eds), The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology,Linguistics and Genetics (pp.201-229). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
6. Tsang Cheng-Hwa, Recent discoveries at Tapenkeng culture sites in Taiwan;Implications for the problem of Austronesian origins. In The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics ,(Eds) L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (pp.63-74). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
7. L. Sagart, Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian an Updated and improved argument. In L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (Eds), The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics (pp.161-176). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
First of all the original migrants OOA population had different features than the contemporary Africans.
Here is an Australian
Here is a contemporary Africans
You can clearly see differences between the Australian and African type; while both individuals are described as Negroes you will note that the forehead of the Australian matches in many ways the cranium of earlier hominid forms dating back to the rise of homo sapiens sapiens in Africa.
Any physical anthropologists would note these changes. The coastal Melanesians usually show mixed Australian-African features or features commonly found among Africans--not Australians.\
Fijians
Australians
A simple observation of Melanesians and Aborigines make it clear that the former population resemble Africans moreso than Aborigines--the original settlers of Asia.
The ancestors of the Melanesians and Polynesians probably lived in East Asia. The late appearance of Melanoid people from East Asia on the shore areas of Oceania would explain the differences between the genetic make up of Melanesians living in the highlands and Melanesians living along the shore [1-2].
The skeletal evidence from East Asia [3-7,12] suggests that the TMRCAs of the Polynesians and some of the coastal Melanesians may be mainland East Asia, not Taiwan. The ancestral population for the shoreline Melanesians was probably forced from East Asia by Proto-Polynesians as they were pushed into Southeast Asia by the Han or contemporary Chinese. This would explain the genetic diversity existing among shoreline Melanesians, in comparison to the genetic homogeneity among isolated inland Melanesian, like the Highland New Guineans.
There were two Shang Dynasties, one Melanoid (Qiang-Shang) and the other Proto-Polynesian (Yin-Shang). The first Shang Dynasty was founded by Proto-Melanesians or Melanoids belonging to the Yueh tribe called Qiang [7]. The Qiang lived in Qiangfeng, a country to the west of Yin-Shang, Shensi and Yunnan [7-11,13].
The archaeological evidence also indicates that the Polynesians probably originated in East Asia [4,6-7,12-13]. Consequently, the Polynesian migration probably began in East Asia, not Southeast Asia. Taiwan genetically probably belongs to the early Polynesians who settled Taiwan before they expanded into outer Oceania.
Given the archaeological record of intimate contact between Proto-Polynesians and Proto-Melanoids, neither a “slow boat” or “express train” explains the genetic relationship between the Melanesian and Polynesian populations. This record makes it clear that these populations lived in intimate contact for thousands of years and during this extended period of interactions both groups probably exchanged genes.
References 1. Manfred Kayser, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J. Trent, Mark Stoneking Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians. The American Journal of Human Genetics - 10 January 2008, 82 (1); pp. 194-198.
2. J. S. Fredlaender, F.R. Friedlaender, J.A. Hodgson, M. Stoltz, G. Koki, G. Horvat,S. Zhadanov, T. G. Schurr and D.A. Merriwether, Melanesian mtDNA complexity, PLoS ONE, 2(2) 2007: e248.
3 F. Weidenreich F., Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163.
4. Kwang-chih Chang, Archaeology of ancient China (Yale University Press, 1986) p. 64.
5. G. H. R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp. 301-309).
6. K. C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977): p. 76
7. Winters, Clyde Ahmad, “The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils”, Journal of Tamil Studies, no27 (June 1985), pp. 65-92.
8. K. C. Chang, Shang Civilization, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1980) pp. 227-230.
9. C. A. Winters, The Dravido-Harappa Colonization of Central Asia, Central Asiatic Journal, (1990) 34 (1-2), pp. 120-144.
10. Y. Kan, The Bronze culture of western Yunnan, Bull. Of the Ancient Orient Museum (Tokyo), 7 (1985), pp. 47-91.
11. S. S. Ling, A study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double, and Deck canoes of ancient China, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean. The Institute of Ethnology Academic Sinica. Nankang, Taipei Taiwan, 1970.
12. Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964): pp. 359-375: 375).
13. Winters,Clyde Ahmad, “Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia”, India Past and Present 3, no2 (1986): pp. 225-241.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote: Ethiopians are not elongated. They are short, small to medium built people. The women are short and curvy and the men are short, deform-shaped with no masculine appeal.
You're way too easy.... You have a lot to learn, but from reading some of your previous posts it seems you don't want to learn, but hey, you provide opportunity for others to learn, so you do serve some purpose.
Ethiopians are Elongated East Africans, period, just as the Tutsi, Somali, and Masai are. According measurements comparing them to OTHER Elongated East Africans...
Tutsi of Rwanda:
*[color=green]Stature: 176 cm * Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]
Masai:
[color=blue] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]
Galla(Oromo):
[color=red] * Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]
Sab Somali:
[color=gray] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]
Warsingali Somali:
[color=navy] * Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
Source:
Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa pg 142
You're a fvcking idiot. Ethiopians are NOT elongated. Those people are fvcking short. The women are short and curvy. They narrow waists and rounded hips and plump booties. The men are short and many are deform-shaped. They tend to be thin and unmuscular.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Dark skin evolved with the loss of 'fur' in hominids and is the original state of all homo sapiens. - Jablonski. [2000]
The original human population would have been very dark, similar to, today's equatorial Africans. - Jablonski [2006]
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was Black, and the intense sun *killed off the progeny with any whiter skin* that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein- - (Rogers 2004:107).
The logic that informs the above is quite clear.
It is amazing the number of people who will fight against it, because it somehow 'bothers' them to know that their ancestors were Black.
The reality of the dark skinned origins of *all* humans directly undercuts the ideology of race.
The 'ideology' of race is very real. We are not the same. Give up. I hate liberals.
How do you see race? Is it by the way someone looks or is it by their lineage? Can it be both?
It can be phenotype, lineage, or in some cases both.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:If that is the case, ALL the descendants from the oceanic branch who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock should share less DNA with Africans who ancestors broke off from the "original" stock.
Yes Indeed, this would be the case, now you're learning, since Europeans are part of the original OOA population structure -meaning they descend from Oceanic populations, Oceanic's ultimately descend from Africa.
Indeed Europeans, as explained, should be as far genetically as these non African populations, but if you understood genetics you would know why they are not further, and are actually closer, which is because of the recent Neolithic admixture into the European gene pool. Genetic lineages which arose amongst Africans after the original OOA population left to become the ancestor of all non Africans, was brought into Europe.
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia.
Can you debunk or address the recent African admixture in Europeans that would make Europeans appear intermediate between Africans and Oceanic(non African) populations????
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
This shyt you wrote don't make no fvcking sense. What I wrote makes genuine sense. I already told you why Europeans has more common ancestry with Africans and I explained why the Oceanic people don't. What you wrote don't agree with anything thing I said. It is another case of hocus pocus science. There was never an OOA journey. People broke of the main branch by family/clan. That is where phenotype comes from. Fijans did not come from Africa. They are an Asiatic stock. That is where their ancestral branch come from. Just kill it!
You're disagreement with OOA will not make it wrong, all non-Africans (Oceanics, Asians, Europeans etc..) carry a sub-set of East African genes. This occurred from the original OOA populations migrating from Africa. Fijians descend from the same population that all Non-Africans(Oceanics, Asians, Europeans etc..) descend from. Europeans, as explained, should be as far genetically as these other non African populations, from Africans, since Europeans are resultant of populations descending from Oceanics......
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
This means a lot and is why it makes you so mad. Europeans do not appear closer to Africans because they are younger. Europeans, like all non Africans descend from the same OOA population. This would put Europeans , as far genetically as Oceanics or Asians etc.. if they didn't receive post OOA lineages.
^ All found in West Eurasia....and not in East Eurasia, SouthEast Asia, Australia, New Guinnea, Melanesia. All post OOA lineages.
You're a fvcking idiot. That shyt you cited in bold does not mean a damn thing. First you said the Europeans are an 'intermediate' between the Africans and Oceanic and now you are saying they just as old. Just because certain groups carry the same DNA does not mean they branched off from the same source at the same time. You're a fvcking idiot. You still don't make any sense. Who said the OOA tale is wrong? I'm telling you that it never happened. Europeans share more DNA that is common amongnst those who are found in "Africa" today because they are a YOUNGER group. If they are not the younger group, and they are, then the more common DNA that they share with those found in "Africa" today is due to 'recent' admixture. It is the first or both. You are one confuse fvck. Take your pseudo science and shove it.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by JMT:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by JMT:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
They don't come from Africa. Their ancestors were stocks from Asia. If any migration took place, it took place from Asia.
Then prove it. The burden of proof is on you. And please don't plagiarize debatable theories from anonymous sources from the web.
It's rather disingenuous and insulting for you to disregard the oral histories of Fijians without producing a shred of independent data of your own to refute specific claims. Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web and presenting it as being 'accurate.' The real work actually involves traveling to the source to investigate these specific claims, interviewing Fijians, learning their language, learning their customs, composing and analyzing independent genetic material, etc.
Nothing is written in stone. Things are subject to change. Perhaps the Fijians do have a recent, direct genetic relationships with continental Africans. And maybe they don't. But how would you know what's accurate from inaccurate if you don't do your own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources?
You're a fvcking idiot. I don't pull anything from the web. Fijans are primitive people and oral history is not reliable. Aborigines say they came from the milky way. That is their oral history. Fijans are strictly Asiatic people and they belong to Asiatic stock. I would like Fijans to prove they recently migrated from Africa. They did not. Their ancestors who came from Asia maybe had ancestors who came from Africa - like everyone else in the world. West Africans have all this great oral history of them being some advanced people who once wore clothes, had written languages, had gun powder, build large structures, and high tech boats. You don't find any evidence of these things. Only primitive people goes by oral history. Other people who have REAL history have records.
If you don't "pull" anything from the web then cite your sources. Your ignorant opinion and guess work is irrelevant.
How do you know Fijian oral history is "unreliable", because you say so? What investigation have YOU done into this matter? Have you bothered to study their language and customs, yes or no? Are you a linguist? What qualifies YOU to say Fijian oral history is false?
You just insulted a number of African tribes that have a tradition of oral history. Various African tribes from every corner of the continent have used oral history to some extent. If I didn't know better I would assume you are white. If you are black then you're a pitiful example why some Africans have an unfavorable opinion of AAs. Interesting you used West Africa only as a model when it's clear a number of African tribes from north to south, east and west have used oral histories.
You failed to answer my initial question; prove Fijian oral history is false. The burden of proof is on you since you believe the Fijians are "primitive".
Lastly, be careful who you call an idiot. I've seen a number of members use rather unfavorable verbs in reference to you.
Prove : to learn or find out by experience 2 a: to test the truth, validity, or genuineness of <the exception proves the rule> <prove a will at probate> b: to test the worth or quality of ; specifically : to compare against a standard —sometimes used with up or out c: to check the correctness of (as an arithmetic result) 3 a: to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic) <prove a theorem> <the charges were never proved in court> b: to demonstrate as having a particular quality or worth <the vaccine has been proven effective after years of tests> <proved herself a great actress>
Have you done any of the above, Bettyboo? If not STFU!
I don't give a fvck about some Africans having unfavorable opinions of AAs. That shyt goes both ways. Who the fvck are Africans? AAs don't give a shyt about Africans opinion. Fijans don't come from Africa you fvcking idiot. Their DNA, culture, language, customs, prove it. What part of Africa do these people come from. Why no one in Africa speaks the same language as the Fijans. Oral history is primitive and it does not matter especially when there is no evidence. Like I said, West Africans have oral history as some great, advanced civilization who once wore clothes, had written languages, built palaces and great buildings, lived in cities, had great inventions, travel with hi-tech boats, there are no evidence of any such thing. Fijans are brain washed by you stupid afrocentrics. Why do you want them to be from Africa?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Actually, ttbomk, it was white European Christian missinaries who told Fijians that they came from East Africa. Check above posts for details.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Bettyboo/Wolofi wrote: --------------------------------------- Like I said, West Africans have oral history as some great, advanced civilization who once wore clothes, had written languages, built palaces and great buildings, lived in cities, had great inventions, travel with hi-tech boats, there are no evidence of any such thing. ---------------------------------------
You are summarily dismissed once again as the non-intellectual simpleton whose desperate attempts to usurp this forum with 2nd grade troll tactics have relegated you to being the main victim of intellectual thrashings on this forum.
Bettyboo is the result of what happens when a 40 year old man who is still trying to pass 5th grade has children.
bwahahahahahahaahahahahahaheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Actually, ttbomk, it was white European Christian missinaries who told Fijians that they came from East Africa. Check above posts for details.
^ Correct. And again the perpetrator Dr. Winters knows this.
I must admit on one level Winters is sometimes right.
He tells very silly lies, to people he presumes to be very unintelligent.
Sometimes he does find his small target audience, who begin to defend his ridiculous claims, out of some sort of warped loyalty to afrocentric ideology.
It's an interesting though sometimes ugly phenomenon.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Best disinfectant for Winters poisonous pseudo-science is actual research on the topic...
Friedlaender also says that the study gives a different perspective on the notion of the "apparent distinctions between humans from different continents, often called racial differences. In this part of the Pacific, there are big differences between groups just from one island to the next -- one might have to name five or six new races on this basis, if one were so inclined. Human racial distinctions don't amount to much."
^ This also indicates the antiquity of the dark skinned melanoderm phenotype.
Both because the genes that make Melanesian skin black are ancient, because they are identical to the genes that make African skin black, and because dark skin is a universal characteristic of melanesian peoples.
This is notable when you remember that many of these peoples have lived in relative isolation - even from one another for perhaps 10's of thousands of years - according to the genetics involved.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ maybe jackass akoben can spend the next 20 pages of this thread trying to misintrepret the above as advocating 5 or 6 new races.
then when that fails, he can pretend that Freilaender is denouncing genetics, instead of debunking race. Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Way back on another page:
''If I try to read past your incoherence, it would appear that you are expressing a belief in UFO's?''
It's hard to get some countries' airline pilots and Air forces around the world to lay off the crack pipe isn't it.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasolowitz: Both because the genes that make Melanesian skin black are ancient, because they are identical to the genes that make African skin black, and because dark skin is a universal characteristic of melanesian peoples.
"black" (if such exists) genetic influence" - Keita
LOL
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben:
quote:Originally posted by rasolowitz: Both because the genes that make Melanesian skin black are ancient, because they are identical to the genes that make African skin black, and because dark skin is a universal characteristic of melanesian peoples.
"black" (if such exists) genetic influence" - Keita
quote:Originally posted by rasolowitz: Both because the genes that make Melanesian skin black are ancient, because they are identical to the genes that make African skin black, and because dark skin is a universal characteristic of melanesian peoples.
"black" (if such exists) genetic influence" - Keita
LOL
^ the day you learn to post and argument which is not a non-sequitur, strawman or mis-citation and therefore actually makes sense - will be the day you graduate beyound your well deserved title of jackass akoben.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This statement by Friedlaender does not dispute my findings. Friedlaender and I have already debated this issue elsewhere and he was unable to justify his proposition difference did not exist between Melanesian and Australian populations. See
Friedlaender also says that the study gives a different perspective on the notion of the "apparent distinctions between humans from different continents, often called racial differences. In this part of the Pacific, there are big differences between groups just from one island to the next -- one might have to name five or six new races on this basis, if one were so inclined. Human racial distinctions don't amount to much."
^ This also indicates the antiquity of the dark skinned melanoderm phenotype.
Both because the genes that make Melanesian skin black are ancient, because they are identical to the genes that make African skin black, and because dark skin is a universal characteristic of melanesian peoples.
This is notable when you remember that many of these peoples have lived in relative isolation - even from one another for perhaps 10's of thousands of years - according to the genetics involved.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
Clyde, you really need to step into modern times(reality), the realm of genetics, and leave the sole correlation of old outdated racial anthropology alone. Because you're completely failing.
quote: It is sometimes claimed that craniometric traits are DNA equivalents (Brace 1993), and that trees should be the same when generated from both types of data. But a comparison of studies indicates that in trees based on serogenetics or DNA, New Guineans/Melanesians cluster with mainland Asia, whereas in a craniometric study they group with some Africans -- Soy Keita
Academics analysed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome DNA of Aboriginal Australians and Melanesians from New Guinea. This data was compared with the various DNA patterns associated with early humans. The research was an international effort, with researchers from Tartu in Estonia, Oxford, and Stanford in California all contributing key data and expertise.
The results showed that both the Aborigines and Melanesians share the genetic features that have been linked to the exodus of modern humans from Africa 50,000 years ago.
The researchers analyzed more than 800 genetic markers (highly informative microsatellites) in nearly 1,000 individuals from 41 Pacific populations, as opposed to prior small-scale mitochondrial DNA or Y chromosome studies, which had produced conflicting results.
"The first settlers of Australia, New Guinea, and the large islands just to the east arrived between 50,000 and 30,000 years ago, when Neanderthals still roamed Europe," says Jonathan Friedlaender, professor emeritus of anthropology at Temple and the study's lead author. "These small groups were isolated and became extremely diverse during the following tens of thousands of years. Then, a little more than 3,000 years ago, the ancestors of the Polynesians and Micronesians, with their excellent sailing outrigger canoes, appeared in the islands of Melanesia, and during the following centuries settled the islands in the vast unknown regions of the central and eastern Pacific.
"Over the last 20 years there have been many hypotheses concerning where the ancestors of the Polynesians came from in Asia, how long it took them to develop their special seafaring abilities in Island Melanesia, and how much they interacted with the native Melanesian peoples there before they commenced their remarkable Diaspora across the unexplored islands in the Pacific," he adds.
According to Friedlaender, one scenario called the 'fast train hypothesis,' which is supported by the mitochondrial evidence, suggests that ancestors of the Polynesians originated in Taiwan, moved through Indonesia to Island Melanesia, and then out into the unknown islands of the Pacific without having any significant contact with the Island Melanesians along the way.
A counter argument called 'slow boat hypothesis,' which the Y chromosome evidence supports, suggests that the ancestors of the Polynesians were primarily Melanesians, and that there was very little Asian or Taiwanese influence. A third position, called the "entangled bank hypothesis," suggests these ancient migrations simply can't be accurately reconstructed by looking at the genetics of today's populations, even in the context of the available archaeological evidence.
In their paper, the researchers state that their analysis is consistent with the scenario that the ancestors of Polynesians moved through Island Melanesia relatively rapidly and only intermixed to a very modest degree with the indigenous populations there. "Our genetic analysis establishes that the Polynesians' and Micronesians' closest relationships are to Taiwan Aborigines and East Asians," says Friedlaender. "Some groups in Island Melanesia who speak languages related to Polynesian, called Austronesian or Oceanic languages, do show a small Polynesian genetic contribution, but it is very minor -- never more than 20 percent.
"There clearly was a lot of cultural and language influence that occurred, but the amount of genetic exchange between the groups along the way was remarkably low," he says. "From the genetic perspective, if the ancestral train from the Taiwan vicinity to Polynesia wasn't an express, very few passengers climbed aboard or got off along the way."
Friedlaender adds that this study also confirms and expands their findings from previous studies about the genetic diversity of Island Melanesians--among the most genetically diverse people on the planet, showing further that their diversity is neatly organized by island, island size, topography and language families.
The study, "The Genetic Structure of Pacific Islanders," is published in the January issue of PLoS Genetics.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You can't read. As I said earlier I have already debated this issue and the author of this study could not support his theory.See
As you can see from my paper the authors based their analysis solely on genetic evidence. Evidence they could not support with archaeological and craniometrics.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Clyde, you really need to step into modern times(reality), the realm of genetics, and leave the sole correlation of old outdated racial anthropology alone. Because you're completely failing.
quote: It is sometimes claimed that craniometric traits are DNA equivalents (Brace 1993), and that trees should be the same when generated from both types of data. But a comparison of studies indicates that in trees based on serogenetics or DNA, New Guineans/Melanesians cluster with mainland Asia, whereas in a craniometric study they group with some Africans -- Soy Keita
Academics analysed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome DNA of Aboriginal Australians and Melanesians from New Guinea. This data was compared with the various DNA patterns associated with early humans. The research was an international effort, with researchers from Tartu in Estonia, Oxford, and Stanford in California all contributing key data and expertise.
The results showed that both the Aborigines and Melanesians share the genetic features that have been linked to the exodus of modern humans from Africa 50,000 years ago.
The researchers analyzed more than 800 genetic markers (highly informative microsatellites) in nearly 1,000 individuals from 41 Pacific populations, as opposed to prior small-scale mitochondrial DNA or Y chromosome studies, which had produced conflicting results.
"The first settlers of Australia, New Guinea, and the large islands just to the east arrived between 50,000 and 30,000 years ago, when Neanderthals still roamed Europe," says Jonathan Friedlaender, professor emeritus of anthropology at Temple and the study's lead author. "These small groups were isolated and became extremely diverse during the following tens of thousands of years. Then, a little more than 3,000 years ago, the ancestors of the Polynesians and Micronesians, with their excellent sailing outrigger canoes, appeared in the islands of Melanesia, and during the following centuries settled the islands in the vast unknown regions of the central and eastern Pacific.
"Over the last 20 years there have been many hypotheses concerning where the ancestors of the Polynesians came from in Asia, how long it took them to develop their special seafaring abilities in Island Melanesia, and how much they interacted with the native Melanesian peoples there before they commenced their remarkable Diaspora across the unexplored islands in the Pacific," he adds.
According to Friedlaender, one scenario called the 'fast train hypothesis,' which is supported by the mitochondrial evidence, suggests that ancestors of the Polynesians originated in Taiwan, moved through Indonesia to Island Melanesia, and then out into the unknown islands of the Pacific without having any significant contact with the Island Melanesians along the way.
A counter argument called 'slow boat hypothesis,' which the Y chromosome evidence supports, suggests that the ancestors of the Polynesians were primarily Melanesians, and that there was very little Asian or Taiwanese influence. A third position, called the "entangled bank hypothesis," suggests these ancient migrations simply can't be accurately reconstructed by looking at the genetics of today's populations, even in the context of the available archaeological evidence.
In their paper, the researchers state that their analysis is consistent with the scenario that the ancestors of Polynesians moved through Island Melanesia relatively rapidly and only intermixed to a very modest degree with the indigenous populations there. "Our genetic analysis establishes that the Polynesians' and Micronesians' closest relationships are to Taiwan Aborigines and East Asians," says Friedlaender. "Some groups in Island Melanesia who speak languages related to Polynesian, called Austronesian or Oceanic languages, do show a small Polynesian genetic contribution, but it is very minor -- never more than 20 percent.
"There clearly was a lot of cultural and language influence that occurred, but the amount of genetic exchange between the groups along the way was remarkably low," he says. "From the genetic perspective, if the ancestral train from the Taiwan vicinity to Polynesia wasn't an express, very few passengers climbed aboard or got off along the way."
Friedlaender adds that this study also confirms and expands their findings from previous studies about the genetic diversity of Island Melanesians--among the most genetically diverse people on the planet, showing further that their diversity is neatly organized by island, island size, topography and language families.
The study, "The Genetic Structure of Pacific Islanders," is published in the January issue of PLoS Genetics.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by akoben:
quote:Originally posted by rasolowitz: Both because the genes that make Melanesian skin black are ancient, because they are identical to the genes that make African skin black, and because dark skin is a universal characteristic of melanesian peoples.
"black" (if such exists) genetic influence" - Keita
LOL
^ the day you learn to post and argument which is not a non-sequitur, strawman or mis-citation and therefore actually makes sense - will be the day you graduate beyound your well deserved title of jackass akoben.
The day you stop projecting your mis-quotes and representation of scholar's positions onto others, while playing pretend "geneticist", is the day you will stop looking like the contradicting ignoramus you are. LOL
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Posted by Clyde: You can't read. As I said earlier I have already debated this issue and the author of this study could not support his theory.See
Skeletal Evidence
As you can see from my paper the authors based their analysis solely on genetic evidence. Evidence they could not support with archaeological and craniometrics.
Lol, Clyde Clyde Clyde. First of all you're supposed to be a scholar, yet you don't know genetics trump cranio-metrics. Genetics is how we are able to prove OOA, if there were no genetics, than we wouldn't know, say, where Europeans comes from. Early Europeans resembled Australians and Africans, recent Europeans are descended from this population that still resembled Australians.
Some 40,000 years ago, Cro-Magnons -- the first people who had a skeleton that looked anatomically modern -- entered Europe, coming from Africa. A group of geneticists, coordinated by Guido Barbujani and David Caramelli of the Universities of Ferrara and Florence, shows that a Cro-Magnoid individual who lived in Southern Italy 28,000 years ago was a modern European, genetically as well as anatomically.
The researchers wrote in the newly published paper: "The Paglicci 23 individual carried a mtDNA sequence that is still common in Europe, and which radically differs from those of the almost contemporary Neandertals, demonstrating a genealogical continuity across 28,000 years, from Cro-Magnoid to modern Europeans."
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
Although it's pretty clear he explained the facts to you, and you reply to him with outdated anthropological terms such as Mongoloid, Australoid, Negroid etc...
No wonder he didn't bother to respond to your outdated pseudo scholarship....
When will you learn Clyde?
quote: Originally submitted as a Reader Response by Jonathan Friedlaender (jfriedla@temple.edu) on 5 February 2008:
It is clear that Africa is the homeland of modern humanity, one way or another. Our paper is consistent with the "Out of Africa" hypothesis for the majority of STR variants (figure 2), although there is still room for suggestion of minor contributions from earlier Homo erectus populations.
However, **we did not** find any signature of a special relationship between the (small number of) African populations sampled in the CEPH panel and any of our Pacific groups, either by Structure analysis of STR frequencies, or by shared rare alleles. This may change, but that's the result we obtained with the available data.
**We did find unequivocal genetic evidence** of ties between Polynesians, Micronesians, and Taiwan Aborigines (as well as East Asians). Papuan-speaking groups in Island Melanesia are very distinctive, but **do not** seem to be especially related to Africans in spite of some similarities in appearances.
Regarding the craniometric evidence, Michael Pietrusewsky's work in Asia and the Pacific is the authoritative contemporary reference, although I believe his interpretation of Island Melanesian "intermediate" status should be altered. However, I am certain he would reject any argument that there is any evidence of recent African influence in East Asia, much less Island Melanesia.
Clyde nonsensically responds.....
quote:RE: RE: Skeletal Evidence of Early Polynesian and Melanesian Contact in East Asia Clyde98 replied to PLoS_Genetics on 09 Apr 2008 at 04:07 GMT
Friedlaender fails to recognize that there is a craniometric difference between Australoids /Australians, Mongoloids and Melanoids; craniometric differences that indicate two migrations of the Black Variety into the Pacific. Tsuenehiko Hanihare discussed the phenotypic variations between these populations(1). Tsuenehiko classified these people into three major populations Southeast Asian Mongoloids (Polynesians), the Australians or Austroloid type and the Nicobar and Andaman (Melanoid) samples which he found lie between the predominately Southeast Asian and Australoid/Australian type (1). The Australian aborigines and Melanesians show cranonical variates and represent two distinct Black populations(2). The Australoids or Australians live mainly in Australia and the highland regions of Oceania, the Melanoid people on the otherhand live in the coastal regions of Near Oceania and Fiji. D.J de Laubenfels discussed the variety of Blacks found in Asia. Laubenfiels explained that Negroids/Melanoids such as the Tasmanians are characterized by wooly black hair and sparse body hair (2). Australoids or Australians on the otherhand have curly, wavy or straight hair and abundant body hair. Other differences between these Black populations include Negroid / Melanoid brows being vertical and without eyebrow ridges, whereas Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges (2). This led M. Pietrusewky to recognize two separate colonizations of the Pacific by morphologically distinct populations one Polynesian and the other Melanesian (3). Pietrusewky’s research indicates a clear separation between the Australian-Melanesian crania and the Polynesian crania (3). The findings indicate an origin for the Polynesians in Southeast Asia (3-5), and an early Australo-Melanesian presence in East Asia as discussed in the earlier comment. Laubenfels argues that the Australians are remnants of the original African migration to the region 60kya (2). This view is supported by David Bulbeck who found that the Australian craniometrics are different from the Mongoloid (Polynesian), and Melanoid crania metrics (4). This research indicates that whereas Australian aborigine crania agree with the archaic population of Asia and first group of Africans to exit Africa, they fail to correspond to the Sahulland crania which are distinctly of Southwest Pacific or Melanoid affinity (2,4). This suggests that by the rise of Sahulland there were two distinct Black populations in Asia one Austroloid and the other Melanoid (4). By the Neolithic the Melanoids or Papuans are associated with millet cultivation at Yangshao and Lougshan according to Pietrusewky’s work (5). Tsang argues that the probable homeland of the Austronesian speakers was the Pearl River delta, here the Melanoid people cultivated millet (6). Sagart believes that there is a Proto-Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian family of languages based on the millet culture the Melanoids introduced to China (7). Due to the expansion of the Mongoloid population after the fall of the Anyang Shang Dynasty , Melanoids began to settle the Pacific Islands and spread the Lapita culture (8). This is supported by Lapita skeletal remains that lack the characteristic 9b.p. deletion of the Polynesians, but show Melanesian similarities (9-11). In summary, Melanesian Lapita skeletal remains indicate a Melanoid migration from East Asia to the Pacific (10-11). The crania dating to the first out of Africa exit which has Australian characteristic (2); the appearance of Melanoid people in Sahulland 12000 years ago (4); and the subsequent migration to the Pacific of Melanoids carrying the Lapita culture support two migrations of the Black Variety into the Pacific. Migrations that explain the genetic difference between Polynesians , Near Oceania coastal inhabitants, and the Highlanders in Oceania (9-10) .
Nowhere in his response did Clyde speak upon the genetic facts presented to him. Clyde simply offered more pseudo-scientific outdated anthropological scholarship instead.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
KIK718 you're so stupid. If you read his response you will see that he tried to counter my anthropology evidence with evidence of his own.
He did respond he said:
quote:
Regarding the craniometric evidence, Michael Pietrusewsky's work in Asia and the Pacific is the authoritative contemporary reference, although I believe his interpretation of Island Melanesian "intermediate" status should be altered. However, I am certain he would reject any argument that there is any evidence of recent African influence in East Asia, much less Island Melanesia.
I said
[quote] This led M. Pietrusewky to recognize two separate colonizations of the Pacific by morphologically distinct populations one Polynesian and the other Melanesian (3). Pietrusewky’s research indicates a clear separation between the Australian-Melanesian crania and the Polynesian crania (3). The findings indicate an origin for the Polynesians in Southeast Asia (3-5), and an early Australo-Melanesian presence in East Asia as discussed in the earlier comment.
He did not respond further because I showed that M. Pietrusewky's work supported my conclusions. Since he had used M. Pietrusewky as the source for his opposition to my proposition and the source did not say what he thought the researcher would say he had no other recourse but to end the discussion
You just don't get It.You can not use genetic evidence alone to prove a point because the genetic evidence is relying on the premise that the people living in an area today have always lived in the area. As you may know this is often not the case so you need collateral evidence to support any proposition you make.
Since you are not a researcher you can't seem to understand that a proposition without evidence is worthless.
. .
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:You can not use genetic evidence alone to prove a point because the genetic evidence is relying on the premise that the people living in an area today have always lived in the area.
Lmao, funny you say that, because well basically, you can't use anthropology alone(which is what you do). Of course geneticists use genetic evidence from from past and present populations, you dumb pseudo-scholar. That's how they come to their conclusions. Of course you need genetic evidence to confirm your theory, something you DON'T have.
quote:As you may know this is often not the case so you need collateral evidence to support any proposition you make.
Pray, do tell where this is not the case?
quote: DNA from Pre-Clovis Human Coprolites in Oregon, North America
M. Thomas P. Gilbert,1* Dennis L. Jenkins,2* Anders Götherstrom,3 Nuria Naveran,4 Juan J. Sanchez,5 Michael Hofreiter,6 Philip Francis Thomsen,1 Jonas Binladen,1 Thomas F. G. Higham,7 Robert M. Yohe, II,8 Robert Parr,8 Linda Scott Cummings,9 Eske Willerslev1{dagger}
The timing of the first human migration into the Americas and its relation to the appearance of the Clovis technological complex in North America at about 11,000 to 10,800 radiocarbon years before the present (14C years B.P.) remains contentious. We establish that humans were present at Paisley 5 Mile Point Caves, in south-central Oregon, by 12,300 14C years B.P., through the recovery of human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from coprolites, directly dated by accelerator mass spectrometry. The mtDNA corresponds to Native American founding haplogroups A2 and B2. The dates of the coprolites are >1000 14C years earlier than currently accepted dates for the Clovis complex.
Also, Clyde you make a correlation from the above that this population carried A2 and B2 from Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. But Clyde you don't realize is, the A2 and B2 haplogroups found in this study are actually Mtdna markers, while San and Pygmies carry A and B which is a Y-chromosome. Two different genetic markers, Y-dna and Mtdna. Clyde you makes mistakes but will never admit to them. All the while adding it to your theories and promoting it as truth.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
Clyde you are a sad pseudo scholar, and never will be regarded as anything more than so......
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:This is your opinion. I have published 4-5 articles in peer reviwed genetics journals. How many articles have you published?
This shows that while you talk the talk. I go out and do the research necessary to support my claims.
By the way I have more articles in-press.
Now please list the articles you have published in this field, or anthropology that indicate your mastery of the subject.
Clyde, I am sorry but this why you'll always be regarded as a pseudo-scientist and nothing more..
Your distortion of genetics to fit your theories is just one of the many flaws of Clyde Winters. These are STR's specifically amplified in many Y-chromosome studies, just because it's amplified in one study on Polish populations and then Fuegians and then Britains does not imply all the populations carry the same haplogroups or are closely related. DYS19 was a biallelic system which was also amplified to protect from contamination of modern DNA as a marker or Native American origin, in the study, the results clearly revealed, Y-STRs and Mtdna of Native American origin, not African.
quote: Ancient mtDNA was successfully recovered from 24 skeletal samples of a total of 60 ancient individuals from Patagonia-Tierra del Fuego, dated to 100-400 years BP, for which consistent amplifications and two-strand sequences were obtained. ***Y-chromosome STRs*** (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) and the **biallelic system DYS199** were also ***amplified*** , Y-STR alleles could be characterized in nine cases, with an average of 4.1 loci per sample correctly typed. In two samples of the same ethnic group (Aonikenk), an identical and complete eight-loci haplotype was recovered. The DYS199 biallelic system was used as a control of contamination by modern DNA and, along with DYS19, as a marker of American origin. The analysis of both mtDNA and Y-STRs revealed DNA from Amerindian ancestry. The observed polymorphisms are consistent with the hypothesis that the ancient Fuegians are close to populations from south-central Chile and Argentina, but their high nucleotide diversity and the frequency of single lineages strongly support early genetic differentiation of the Fuegians through combined processes of population bottleneck, isolation, and/or migration, followed by strong genetic drift. This suggests an early genetic diversification of the Fuegians right after their arrival at the southernmost extreme of South America.
quote: Int J Legal Med. 2005 Sep ;119 (5):303-5 15834734 (P,S,G,E,B) Polish population study on Y chromosome haplotypes defined by 18 STR loci.
Polymorphism of 18 STR loci specific to the human Y chromosome (DYS19, DYS388 , DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390 , DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS426, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS460, GATA H4.1, DYS385 a/b, and YCAII a/b) was evaluated by means of a multiplex (octadecaplex) PCR reaction and capillary electrophoresis in a Polish population sample of 208 unrelated males. A total of 192 different haplotypes and 183 unique haplotypes were identified. The observed haplotype diversity was 0.998, while discrimination capacity was 92.3%. DYS389 was shown to be the most valuable in discrimination of similar haplotypes, whereas DYS388, DYS393, DYS426, and DYS438 did not affect the discrimination power of the multiplex.
Clyde, tell me, from your understanding of the above amplified polymorphisms of ***18 STR loci specific to the human Y chromosome*** , in this study on a Polish population Y-chromosome, does it indicate that they carry hgA1? Or that Polish are related to the Fuegians?
quote: Abstract
Summary
We analyze the allelic polymorphisms in seven Y-specific microsatellite loci and a Y-specific alphoid system with 27 variants (αh I–XXVII), in a total of 89 Y chromosomes carrying the DYS199T allele and belonging to populations representing Amerindian and Na-Dene linguistic groups. Since there are no indications of recurrence for the DYS199C→T transition, it is assumed that all DYS199T haplotypes derive from a single individual in whom the C→T mutation occurred for the first time. We identified both the ancestral founder haplotype, 0A, of the DYS199T lineage and seven derived haplogroups diverging from the ancestral one by one to seven mutational steps. The 0A haplotype (5.7% of Native American chromosomes) had the following constitution: DYS199T, αh II, DYS19/13, DYS389a/10, DYS389b/27, DYS390/24, DYS391/10, DYS392/14, and DYS393/13 (microsatellite alleles are indicated as number of repeats). We analyzed the Y-specific microsatellite mutation rate in 1,743 father-son transmissions, and we pooled our data with data in the literature, to obtain an average mutation rate of .0012. We estimated that the 0A haplotype has an average age of 22,770 years (minimum 13,500 years, maximum 58,700 years). Since the DYS199T allele is found with high frequency in Native American chromosomes, we propose that 0A is one of the most prevalent founder paternal lineages of New World aborigines.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Actually, ttbomk, it was white European Christian missinaries who told Fijians that they came from East Africa. Check above posts for details.
And the Afrocentrics believe that shyt.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Bettyboo/Wolofi wrote:
You're a fvcking idiot. SHEBA is not in Nigeria or Africa. It is found in Asia the Middle Eastern region, present day Yemen/Saudi Arabia. Nigeria is not in the bible and neither are her people.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Winters - the self proclaimed Afrocentrist, does not believe Fijians are recent immigrants from Africa.
He just gets off on the sense of empowerment that comes from being able to convince other people that his made-up stories are true.
This is a characteristic trait of charlatan and distortion junkies.
They want to tell a story - and make you believe it's true, even when they know it is not.
One way for Winters to lie about this, is to exploit the truth - which is that all humans ultimately originate in East Africa from 70 thousand years ago.
Of course this includes Finlanders, and French as well as Fijians, but Winters doesn't call them 'Africans', and this is not what Winters is saying.
He is specifically saying that these peoples were living in Africa a few thousand years ago, when in fact, they have been living in Asia/Pacific for at least 50 thousand years.
But I've seen willfull idiots rush to his defense before by trying to confuse the African origin of all humans - with Winters claims that Fijians migrated from Africa to Fiji within historic times.
By intentionally confusing the nature of Winters claims, they aid their own self delusion.
Again, it's interesting to see how the cynical falsehoods of Winters 'works', when interacting with the simple minds of his target audience.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Clyde you are a sad pseudo scholar, and never will be regarded as anything more than so......
You can keep this opinion while I continue to publish articles on population genetics in peer reviewed journals and you stand on the sidelines making stupid faces in the mirror.
.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Bettyboo wrote: ------------------------------- You're a fvcking idiot. SHEBA is not in Nigeria or Africa. It is found in Asia the Middle Eastern region, present day Yemen/Saudi Arabia. Nigeria is not in the bible and neither are her people. -------------------------------
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!
Never said any of the above. Your response only reinforces that you're a dumb jealous trolling misfit who can't comprehend a response to his own braindead writings.
However your unrequested response allows for yet another opportunity for me to spread some scholarship. Enjoy : )
PS. I don't have any ointment. LOL!
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Clyde you are a sad pseudo scholar, and never will be regarded as anything more than so......
You can keep this opinion while I continue to publish articles on population genetics in peer reviewed journals and you stand on the sidelines making stupid faces in the mirror.
.
As usual Clyde continues to make claims that have been disproved assuming that readers will not remember. These "articles in peer reviewed journals" are NOT, in fact reviewed because they are NOT articles but comments or letters about truly "peer reviewed" articles. i.e there has been no validation by others of Clyde's claims as there would have been if there had been a true "peer review"
below are two responses I posted before to my queries about editorial policy on letters and comments
Thanks for your message – good question. Reader Responses are intended to be more informal and to encourage community dialogue. As such, they do not undergo peer review by our editors or by external referees (whereas correspondence is treated differently and is peer reviewed).
Instead, Reader Responses are reviewed by staff (to check they are not obscene, abusive, defamatory, libelous, or in some other way illegal or discriminatory; otherwise, we will post them). I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Andy
Andy Collings Publications Manager, PLoS Genetics plosgenetics@plos.org / http://www.plosgenetics
In other words, Clyde Winters is a fraud.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Bettyboo wrote:
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I never said you said any of the above. For any black person or any Nigerian to believe that some "wall" in Nigeria is the Kingdom of the Queen of Sheba shows a lack of confidence and superiority thinking. It is only wishful thinking. Even the archeologist and the BBC reporters knows this, and that is why they said this:
"Dr Darling says the beliefs of the locals cannot be discounted.
"I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but ... the local people believe it and that's what is important."
He believes that, whatever the case, Eredo could become Nigeria's first world heritage site, joining monuments like Stonehenge in the UK and the pyramids of Egypt."
Another trick to boost you people confidence and make you appear noble like TRUE great civilizations. The writer is correct...It is what the "Local People" believe.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Quetzalcoatl wrote: --------------------------------- ---------------------------------
In other words, Clyde Winters is a fraud.
No Quetzacoatl is a liar. Here are my other articles:
quote:
2008 Int J Hum Genet, 8(4): 325-329 (2008) Origin and Spread of Dravidian Speakers Clyde Winters Uthman dan Fodio Institute, Chicago, Illinois 60643, USA E-mail: c-winters@govst.edu KEYWORDS Haplotype; mtDNA phenotype; haplogroup; macrohaplogroup; molecular ABSTRACT Some Researchers argue that there should be more cooperation between anthropologist and population geneticists due to the confounding variables that can influence patterns of interaction between populations and population structure generally, which are usually unknown by molecular biologists who know only the molecular evidence. They argue that the absence of cooperation between these groups may be the cause of disparity between the dates for Indian haplogroups among different population geneticists and interpretations of Indian populations. For example, many researchers claim that the Indian M haplogroup originated in situ among Dravidian speakers, because haplogroup M1 is only found in East Africa. Using molecular evidence we find that M1 is not isolated in East Africa. The molecular evidence indicates that M1 is spread across Sub-Saharan Africa, Arabia/Yemen and is even found in India; while the Indian haplogroup M3 is found on the Horn of Africa, Arabia/Yemen, and Iran along a migration path to South India, which is congruent with anthropological, linguistic and archaeological evidence that suggest a recent African origin for the Dravidian speakers in Nubia.
quote: Can parallel mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-I motifs in Indian M haplogroups
Clyde Winters
Source of Support: None, Conflict of Interest: None
How to cite this article: Winters C. Can parallel mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-I motifs in Indian M haplogroups. Indian J Hum Genet 2007;13:93-6
How to cite this URL: Winters C. Can parallel mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-I motifs in Indian M haplogroups. Indian J Hum Genet [serial online] 2007 [cited 2008 Nov 27];13:93-6. Available from: http://www.ijhg.com/text.asp?2007/13/3/93/38982
Controversy surrounds the relationship between the Eastern African M1 haplogroup and Indian M haplogroups. Some researchers see a "relationship" between the Eastern African M1 and Indian M haplogroups, [1],[2],[3] while other researchers maintain that the Eastern African HVS-I signature motif 16,129, 16,189, 16,249, and 16,311, [4] is not found in Indian M haplogroups, and this motif when it is found results from "parallel mutation." [5],[6]
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
The quality of peer review in this journal can be judged from the following:
Winters continues to claim that M1 exists in India citing a 1999 Kivisild et al article despite the fact that Kivisild himself wrote in reply to Winters that Winters had misunderstood the paper because the name had been changed and the 1999 M1 is NOT the haplotype called M1 today but M3. This is a common occurrence and referees should have been aware of this. It is also ridiculous to believe that Winters knows better than Kivisild himself what Kivisild's article says. A referee should have read the papers in question to see this. A minor point, but indicative of sloppyness, is Winters' citation of Rosenberg et al (2007) as Rosenberg et al (2006).
2008 Int J Hum Genet, 8(4): 325-329 (2008) Origin and Spread of Dravidian Speakers Clyde Winters
quote: pp. 326-327 Kivisild et al. (1999) noted that 26 of the subjects in his study belonged to the M1 haplogroup. These researchers reported that the Indian subcluster M1 was found mainly in Kerala and Karnataka among high caste individuals. Chaubey et al. (2007) argues that the Indianhg M1 in Kivisild et al. (1999) was changed into hg M3 to avoid parallel nomenclatures. This seems unlikely because Kivisild et al. (1999) already had a nomenclature hg M3, in addition to hg M1. Moreover, a cursory examination of the Indian hg M1 of Kivisild et al. (1999) indicates that this subcluster had transitions at 16311, 16129 and 16189, the same as Ethiopian hg M1. Chaubey et al (2007) also claims that the work of Rosenberg et al. (2006) supports the absence of African genes among Indians. This is untrue. Rosenberg et al.. (2006) argue that there is a low level of genetic divergence across geographically and linguistically diverse Indian populations based on their analysis solely of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers from India.
A reviewer should have noticed that, even if Winters cites Chaubey et al (2007), the senior author is Kivisild, the senior author in 1999 who is the authority on what his 1999 paper means. He should have also noticed that Winters does not reply to Kivisild's citation of Olivieri et al (2006) as well as the correct date of Rosenberg et al (2007). See below:
quote:Chaubey G, Mait Metspalu, Richard Villems, Toomas Kivisild 2007. “Reply to Winters.” BioEssays, 29(5): 499.
MtDNA-based genetic arguments provided by Dr. Winters in favor of gene flow from Africa to Dravidian-speaking Indians are, however, entirely erroneous. The author has been, unfortunately, confused by overlooking changes in mtDNA haplogroup (hg) nomenclature. Namely hg, M1 in Kivisild et al.(4) has been later changed to hg M3, in order to avoid parallel nomenclatures.(5) Furthermore, a recent dedicated paper on phylogeography of mtDNA hg M1(6) as well as an extensive comparative mapping of autosomal genetic markers among many Indian populations relative to global populations elsewhere, including Africans,(7) do not provide any clues for a putative recent gene flow, from Africa, to Dravidian-speaking populations in South Asia.
6. Olivieri A, Achilli A, Pala M, Battaglia V, Fornarino S. et al. 2006. The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa. Science 314:1767–1770.
7. Rosenberg NA, Mahajan S, Gonzalez-Quevedo C, Blum MGB, Nino-Rosales L. et al. 2007. Low Levels of Genetic Divergence acrossGeographically and Linguistically Diverse Populations from India. PLoS Genet 2:e215
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Quetzacoatl you're just jealous because your fame is the result of attacking Afrocentric researchers instead of doing original research.
You are such a liar. I gave the proper citation for Rosenberg:
Citation: Rosenberg NA, Mahajan S, Gonzalez-Quevedo C, Blum MGB, Nino-Rosales L, et al. (2006) Low Levels of Genetic Divergence across Geographically and Linguistically Diverse Populations from India. PLoS Genet 2(12): e215. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0020215
Oh you Great Deviever.....You . .
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Quetzacoatl you're just jealous because your fame is the result of attacking Afrocentric researchers
^ some truth here, perhaps, but you should not present such an easy target.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Quetzacoatl you're just jealous because your fame is the result of attacking Afrocentric researchers
^ some truth here, perhaps, but you should not present such an easy target.
Debunking Afrocentric researchers does little for one's academic reputation. When Winters publishes books by academic presses instead of Lulu and publishes real papers in mainline refereed journals in the relevant disciplines (i.e. like Journal of African Languages and Linguistics Studies in African Linguistics, or Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika or mainline journals on Mesoamerica i.e. Estudios de Cultura Maya, Mesoamerica, Latin American Antiquity)-- then we might have a case.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Quetzacoatl you're just jealous because your fame is the result of attacking Afrocentric researchers
^ some truth here, perhaps, but you should not present such an easy target.
Debunking Afrocentric researchers does little for one's academic reputation. When Winters publishes books by academic presses instead of Lulu and publishes real papers in mainline refereed journals in the relevant disciplines (i.e. like Journal of African Languages and Linguistics Studies in African Linguistics, or Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika or mainline journals on Mesoamerica i.e. Estudios de Cultura Maya, Mesoamerica, Latin American Antiquity)-- then we might have a case.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Debunking Afrocentric researchers does little for one's academic reputation
two words:
Mary Lefkowitz.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Debunking Afrocentric researchers does little for one's academic reputation
two words:
Mary Lefkowitz.
Her academic reputation (fame) and her tenure were based on these books: Greek Gods, Human Lives: What We Can Learn from Myths
Women's Life in Greece and Rome: A Source Book in Translation
The Victory Ode: An Introduction
First-Person Fictions: Pindar's Poetic "I
WOMEN IN GREEK MYTH
Lives of the Greek Poets
Women's Life in Greece and Rome
and numerous article such as these:
Mary Lefkowitz, Autobiographical Fiction in Pindar Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 84, (1980), pp. 29-49
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You're such a fake Bernardo aka Quetzalcoatl. Let's look at your publications :
Life and Death in the Templo Mayor by Eduardo Matos Moctezuma, Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano (Translator), Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator)
Offerings of the Templo Mayor by Leonardo Lopez Lujan, Bernard R. De Montellano, Lopez Luj, Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator)
Tamoanchan, Tlalocan : Places of Mist by Alfredo Lopez Austin, Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano (Translator) , Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator) , Bernard R. De Montellano (Translator) , Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator)
Aztec Medicine, Health, and Nutrition by Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano
Except for the last book your other publications are translations of other peoples work. Your own book was published by Rutgers Press which has a vanity press component. This is also the Press where the Journal of African Civilization is published.
Being published by Rutgers Press, is no different from being published by lulu.com.
And I repeat, up to your retirement your only claim to fame was attacking Ivan and Hunter Adams. You banked many speaking engagements and published papers on this theme. Often the publications like Current Anthropology would not publish rebuttals of your work. So you moved into a fantasy world in which you believed everything you wrote was true.
That's why I like you being here. Here you show your ignorance in everyone of our debates now that you don't have Doug or Maat banning posters who dispute your garbage.
You are the fraud. Except for your dissertation you have nothing to show for orignal research.
You Great Deciever ....You.
.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote: you have nothing to show for orignal research.
Clyde, distortion of FACTS, and pretty much fabrication of evidence, are far from original research.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Her academic reputation (fame) and her tenure were based on these books:
^ Nonsense. She had no *fame* and sold few books. She was a middling scholar who labored in obscurity.
The wiki description of her is perfectly accurate:
She has published on subjects including mythology, women in antiquity, Pindar, and fiction in ancient biography. **She has come to the attention of a wider audience through her criticism of the claims of Afrocentrism,** particularly in Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth As History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lefkowitz
^ Her other works are not even mentioned by name, because no one cares.
Tell us honestly if you've actually read her 'other works', or ever would, notwithstanding her infamous anti-afrocentric posturings and an ad hoc need to somehow validate her beyound the petty polemicisms of US right wing politcos? [ie- she is the sarah palin of academia]
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:re: jamie/Bernard/salsassin/etc. - You Great Deciever ....You.
^ I would say he is a significant gadfly to you, and an insignificant fly-speck to anyone else.
Again if you learn to temper your penchant for fabrication, and stop playing down to the lowest common denominator audience - he would be far less effective as and irritant to you.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:re: jamie/Bernard/salsassin/etc. - You Great Deciever ....You.
LOl, is that the same salsassin from youtube who thinks this guy is indigenous to Africa, and has no non-African admixture? The one who believes Ancient Egyptians also looked this??
quote:salsassin: Wrong. They have been mentioned as "super negroid" as stating that their faces have evolved farther in the direction that Negroid faces would go if the continued in the same pattern. Hence thry are not negroid. But that is irrelevant. They are not Black Africans, nor have they ever been considered as such. Negroid is a bone structure. Black is a skin tone or ethnic description. They are not interchangeable. The San have never belonged to a Black ethnic group, nor are they dark skinned, And they live in desert territiories out in the open. SO you are wrong there as well. As stated before, the San are in the same latitude distance from the Equator as North Africans. North Africans have shown Caucasoid (Not White) featres since the Pleistocene. They have been described as heterogenous in their skin tones. You claimed light skin could not exist in Africa. The San are ample evidence that they can without admixture. Thus, they corroborate the light skin in North Africans as a similar environmental capacity.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You're such a fake Bernardo aka Quetzalcoatl. Let's look at your publications :
Life and Death in the Templo Mayor by Eduardo Matos Moctezuma, Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano (Translator), Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator)
Offerings of the Templo Mayor by Leonardo Lopez Lujan, Bernard R. De Montellano, Lopez Luj, Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator)
Tamoanchan, Tlalocan : Places of Mist by Alfredo Lopez Austin, Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano (Translator) , Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator) , Bernard R. De Montellano (Translator) , Thelma Ortiz De Montellano (Translator)
Aztec Medicine, Health, and Nutrition by Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano
Except for the last book your other publications are translations of other peoples work. Your own book was published by Rutgers Press which has a vanity press component. This is also the Press where the Journal of African Civilization is published.
Being published by Rutgers Press, is no different from being published by lulu.com.
Journal of African Civilizations is published by Transaction Publishers NOT Rutgers University Press, which has no "vanity press" components. My book went through peer review. As a matter of fact my translations were also peer reviewed because they were all published by University presses.
quote:And I repeat, up to your retirement your only claim to fame was attacking Ivan and Hunter Adams. You banked many speaking engagements and published papers on this theme. Often the publications like Current Anthropology would not publish rebuttals of your work. So you moved into a fantasy world in which you believed everything you wrote was true.
LOL. I'll put my publication list below and people can see what I published before my retirement in 1998. Let's see 2 papers in Science one a cover article, 2 publications in [B}Current Anthropology[/B], 2 in Ethnohistory, 3 in [BJ]ournal of the American Chemical Society[/B], 1 in American Anthropologist, 2 in Journal of Ethnopharmacology and 4 invited encyclopedia articles for starters. Not only peer reviewed but the leading prestigious journals.
quote: That's why I like you being here. Here you show your ignorance in everyone of our debates now that you don't have Doug or Maat banning posters who dispute your garbage.
You are the fraud. Except for your dissertation you have nothing to show for orignal research.
You Great Deciever ....You. .
Books
Ancient and Modern Medical Practices in Mesoamerica. Greeley, CO: Univ. of Northern Colorado.
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Alfredo López Austin, Human Body and Ideology. Aztec Physiological Concepts (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1988) 2 vol.
Aztec Medicine, Health, and Nutrition (New Brunswick: University of Rutgers Press 1990).
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Alfredo Lopez Austin, Myths of the Opossum: Pathways of Mesoamerican Mythology (Albuquerque: Univ. New Mexico Press, 1993).
Medicina, nutrición, y salud de los aztecas (Mexico: Siglo XXI, 1993). Spanish translation of 1990.
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Leonardo López Luján, The Offerings of the Templo Mayor of Tenochtitlan (Boulder: University Press of Colorado, 1994).
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Eduardo Matos Moctezuma, Life and Death at the Templo Mayor (Boulder: University Press of Colorado, 1995).
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Georges Baudot, Mexico and Utopia (Boulder: University Press of Colorado, 1996).
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Alfredo López Austin, The Rabbit on the Face of the Moon (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1996).
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Michel Graulich, Rituals and Myths of Ancient Mexico (Norman: Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1997)
Translator with T. Ortiz de Montellano of Alfredo López Austin, Tamoanchan, Tlalocan (Boulder: University Press of Colorado, 1997).
Translator of Alfredo López Austin and Leonardo López Luján, The Indian Past of Mexico (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2001).
Articles
METAL-AMMONIA REDUCTION OF NONCONJUGATED DIENES AND ENONES, J. Am. Chem. Soc.,89, 3365 (1967) with B.A. Loving, T.C. Shields and P.D. Gardner.
ANALYSIS OF PESTICIDE RESIDUES BY A DUAL-ELECTRON CAPTURE DETECTOR METHOD, J. Agric. Food Chem.,17, 264 (1969), with L. J. Purdue and J. Bryant.
REACTION OF 3-CYCLOHEXENYL RADICAL WITH NUCLEOPHILES, J. Am. Chem. Soc.,95, 5832 (1973), with D.Y. Myers, C.G. Stroebel and P.D. Gardner.
COUPLING OF RADICALS WITH NUCLEOPHILES: SCOPE OF THE REACTION, J. Am. Chem. Soc., 96, 1981 (1974), with D.Y. Myers, C.G. Stroebel and P.D. Gardner
THE STEPCHILDREN OF LAW AND ORDER, St, Mary's University Bulletin,4 (#1), 6 (1971).
JAILHOUSE POLITICS, J. Contemporary Law, 1, 30 (1974).
EMPIRICAL AZTEC MEDICINE, Science, 188, 215 (1975); REPRINTED in the following: Katunob, 9 (#3) (1976); N. Klein, Ed., Culture Curers and Contagion (San Francisco: Chandler Sharp, 1979).
AZTEC MEDICINE; FANCY OR FACT?, Student Osteopathic Medical Assoc. Publication, 5 (#2), 1 (1976).
UNA CLASIFICACION BOTANICA ENTRE LOS NAHUAS?, in X. Lozoya, Ed.,Estado Actual del Conocimiento de Plantas Medicas Mexicanas (Mexico: IMEPLAM, 1976).
CURANDEROS; SPANISH SHAMANS OR AZTEC SCIENTISTS?, Grito del Sol, 1 (#3), 21 (1976); REPRINTED in the following: La Raza Habla (New Mexico State University), 1 (#4), 1 (1976).
AZTEC CANNIBALISM; AN ECOLOGICAL NECESSITY?, Science, 200, 611 (1978).
THE RATIONAL CAUSES OF DISEASE AMONG THE AZTECS, Memoirs XLII International Congress of Americanists (Paris, September 1976), Vol. 6, 287 (1979); REPRINTED in Katunob, 10 (#2), 23 (1979).
MAGIC MYTH AND MINORITY SCIENTISTS,in Proceedings Society for the Advancement of Chicanos and Native Americans in Science (Boulder, Co: SACNAS, 1978) p. 62; REPRINTED in the following: ERIC, Resources in Education (1979); Grito del Sol, 4 (#2), 47 (1979).
THE SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR AZTEC TREATMENT OF WOUNDS, in C. Viesca Trevino Ed., Estudios Sobre Etnobotanica y Antropologia Medica (Mexico: IMEPLAM, 1979), Vol. 3,p. 145.
DRUGS OF THE FUTURE: DRUGS OF THE PAST, a review essay of Medical Botany by N.H. Lewis and M.P.F. Elvin-Lewis, Reviews in Anthropology, 6 (#4), 425 (1979); REPRINTED in translation in Medicina Tradicional (Mexico), 2 (#8), 71 (1980).
THE MESOAMERICAN CALENDAR: PHILOSOPHY AND COMPUTATIONS, Grito del Sol, 4 (#2), 47-73 (1979).
AZTEC SURVIVALS IN MODERN FOLK MEDICINE, Grito del Sol, 4 (#2), 11-26 (1979).
EL CANIBALISMO AZTECA, NECESIDAD ECOLOGICA?, Anales de Antropologia (Natl. Univ. of Mexico), XVI, 155 (1979).
LAS YERBAS DE TLALOC, Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl ( Natl Univ. of Mexico), 14, 287 (1980).
MINORITIES AND THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL MONOPOLY; ETHICAL AND POLITICAL ASPECTS OF THE INTERACTION OF TRADITIONAL MEDICINE AND SCIENCE, Grito del Sol, 5 (#2), 27 (1980); REPRINTED in J.V. Martinez and D. Marinez, eds., Aspects of Hispanic and American Indian Involvement in Biomedical Research (Bethesda, MD: SACNAS, 1982).
HOME EXPERIMENTS IN AN ADULT GENERAL EDUCATION PROGRAM, J. of College Science Teaching, 10 (#5), 297 (1981), with J.A. Anderson, D.R. Bowen, J.A. Juskevice and J.R, Woodyard.
ENTHEOGENS; THE INTERACTION OF BIOLOGY AND CULTURE, Reviews in Anthropology, 8 (#4), 339 (1981).
CIENCIA Y TECNOLOGIA PARA GRUPOS MINORITARIOS, Ingenieria (Natl. Univ. of Mexico), LI (#3), 60 (1981), with P. Pastor.
THE BODY DANGEROUS: PHYSIOLOGY AND SOCIAL STRATIFICATION, Reviews in Anthropology, 9(#1), 97 (1982).
COUNTING SKULLS: COMMENT ON THE AZTEC CANNIBALISM THEORY OF HARNER-HARRIS, American Anthropologist, 45, 403 (1983).
THE ANTIBACTERIAL PROPERTIES OF AN AZTEC WOUND REMEDY, J. of Ethnopharmacology, 8, 149 (1983), with J. Davidson.
SPANISH ORIGIN POPULATION IN DETROIT ( Detroit, MI: WSU Center for Urban Studies, MIMIC, 1984) with I. Salas.
BASES FOR THE CHOICE OF HERBAL MEDICINES IN OAXACA, MEXICO, J. of Ethnopharmacology, 13, 57-88 (1985), with C. Browner.
AZTEC MEDICINAL HERBS; EVALUATION OF THERAPEUTIC EFFECTIVENESS, in N.L. Etkin, Ed., Plants in Indigenous Medicine & Diet: Biobehavioral Approaches (Bedford Hills, NY: Redgrave, 1986), 113-127.
HERBAL EMMENAGOGUES USED BY WOMEN IN COLOMBIA AND MEXICO, in N. L. Etkin, Ed., Plants in Indigenous Medicine & Diet: Biobehavioral Approaches (Bedford Hills, NY: Redgrave, 1986), p. 32-47 (with C. Browner).
AZTEC SOURCES OF SOME MEXICAN FOLK MEDICINE, in R. Steiner, Ed., Folk Medicine: the Art and the Science (Washington, D.C.: American Chemical Association, 1986), p. 1-22.
EL CONOCIMIENTO DE LA NATURALEZA ENTRE LOS MEXICAS. TAXONOMIA in A. Lopez Austin, Ed., La Historia General de la Medicina en Mexico (Mexico: Academia Nacional de Medicina & UNAM, 1984), Vol. 1, p. 115-132.
LOS PRINCIPIOS RECTORES DE LA MEDICINA ENTRE LOS MEXICAS. ETIOLOGIA, DIAGNOSTICO Y PRONOSTICO, in A. Lopez Austin, Ed., La Historia General de la Medicina en Mexico (Mexico: Academia Nacional de Medicina & UNAM, 1984), Vol. 1, p. 159-170.
ETHNOPHARMACOLOGY in S. P. Parker, ed., McGraw-Hill Yearbook of Science and Technology 1988 (NY:McGraw-Hill, 1987)pp. 311-313.
REDUCTIONIST OR HOLISTIC MEDICINE: ITS ROLE IN LATIN AMERICA, in C. Viesca Trevino, Ed., Estudios de Antropologia Medica (Mexico: UNAM, 1986) Vol. 4, 115-137.
CAIDA DE MOLLERA: AZTEC SOURCES FOR A DISEASE OF SUPPOSED SPANISH ORIGIN, Ethnohistory, 34 (#4), 381-399 (1987).
IMPROVING THE SCIENCE AND MATHEMATIC ACHIEVEMENT OF MEXICAN AMERICAN STUDENTS THROUGH CULTURALLY RELEVANT SCIENCE, Eric Digest, EDO-RC- 88-07 (March 1988) with D.I. Marinez
A METHODOLOGY FOR CROSS-CULTURAL ETHNOMEDICAL RESEARCH, Cultural Anthropology , with A. Rubel and C. Browner Current Anthropology, 29, 681-702 (1988).
FALLEN FONTANELLE IN THE SPANISH SOUTHWEST: ITS ORIGIN, EPIDEMIOLOGY, AND POSSIBLE ORGANIC CAUSES, Medical Anthropology 10 (#4): 207-217 (1988) with M. Logan and R. Trotter.
ENSEÑANZAS QUE DERIVAN DEL USO DE YERBAS MEDICINALES EN OAXACA, MEXICO in Memorias 45o Congreso Internacional de Americanistas (Bogotá, Colombia, 1985). Patrones Cognitivos: Rituales y Fiestas de las Americas (Bogotá: Ediciones Uniandes, 1988), pp. 358-367. (with C.H. Browner).
REPLY TO: H.R. FABREGA, ON RESEARCH METODOLOGY FOR ETHNOMEDICINE, Current Anthropology, 30: 347-348 (1989) with C. H. Browner and A.J. Rubel.
SYNCRETISM IN MEXICAN AND MEXICAN-AMERICAN FOLK MEDICINE 1992 Lecture Series. Working Papers #5 (College Park: Department of Spanish and Portuguese, University of Maryland, 1989).
THE BODY, ETHICS, AND THE COSMOS: AZTEC PHYSIOLOGY, in D. Carrasco,Ed., The Imagination of Matter: Religion and Ecology in Mesoamerican Religious Traditions (Oxford: BAR International Series 515, 1989). 191-210.
MESOAMERICAN RELIGIOUS TRADITION AND MEDICINE, in L.E. Sullivan, Ed., Healing and Restoring; Health and Medicine in the World's Religious Traditions (NY: Macmillan, 1989) pp. 359-394.
GHOSTS OF THE IMAGINATION; JOHN BIERHORST'S TRANSLATION OF CANTARES MEXICANOS, New Scholar, 11, 35-46 (1989). Reprinted in Tlalocan (Mexico), 11, 469-482 (1989).
MULTICULTURAL PSEUDOSCIENCE: SPREADING SCIENTIFIC ILLITERACY AMONG MINORITIES. I. Skeptical Inquirer 16 (#1): 46-50, 1991. Reprinted in Kendrick Frazer, ed. Science, Knowledge, and Belief: Encounters with the Paranormal. Bufffalo, NY: Prometheus Books. 1998. IN PRESS
MAGIC MELANIN: SPREADING SCIENTIFIC ILLITERACY AMONG MINORITIES. II. Skeptical Inquirer 16 (#2): 162-166 1992.
AVOIDING EGYPTOCENTRIC PSEUDOSCIENCE: COLLEGES MUST HELP SET STANDARDS FOR SCHOOLS. Chronicle of Higher Education. March 22, 1992, B1-2.
PAIN: A MESOAMERICAN VIEW. Advances in Nursing Science, 15 (#1), 21-32 1992. (with T. Villaruel).
EL ANALYSIS COMPARATIVO DE SISTEMAS MEDICOS, In P. Sesia, ed. Medicina tradicional, herbolaria y salud comunitaria en Oaxaca. (Oaxaca: CIESAS\Gobierno del Estado de Oaxaca, 1992), pp. 223-263. (with C. H. Browner and A. Rubel).
AFROCENTRICITY, MELANIN AND PSEUDOSCIENCE. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36, 33-58 (1993).
PHARAOH WAS NO EINSTEIN. Newsday, July 9, 1995, pp. A36, 38, 39.
MULTICULTURALISM, CULT ARCHAEOLOGY, AND PSEUDOSCIENCE. In F. Harrold and R. Eve, eds., Scientific Creationism and Cult Archaeology (Ames: University of Iowa Press, 1995) pp. 134-151.
AFROCENTRIC PSEUDOSCIENCE: THE MISEDUCATION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS. Annals of the New York Academy of Science. 775: 561-572 (1996)
THE DOGON REVISITED. Skeptical Inquirer, (Nov./Dec): 39-42 (1996).
ROBBING NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURES: VAN SERTIMA AND THE OLMECS. Current Anthropology (with Gabriel Haslip-Viera and Warren Barbour), 38(#3): 419-441 (1997).
THEY WERE NOT HERE BEFORE COLUMBUS: AFROCENTRIC DIFFUSIONISM IN THE 1990’S. Ethnohistory 44 (#2) 1997(with Gabriel Haslip-Viera and Warren Barbour): 199-234.
POST-MODERN MULTICULTURALISM. APS Forum Physics and Society Newslettter, 24 (#4): 3-5 (1997). Reprinted in American Physical Society News 7 (#1 January) 12 (1998).
ETHNOPHARMACOLOGY OF MEXICAN ASTERACEAE (COMPOSITAE), Annual Review of Pharmacology and Toxicology 38 :539-565 (1998)(with E. Rodríguez, M. Heinrich., M. Robles, J. West).
“BLACK WARRIOR DYNASTS”:L’AFROCENTRISME ET LE NOUVEAU MONDE. In Fauvelle, F.-X., Chretien, J.-P., Perrot, C.-H. (eds.). Afrocentrismes. L’histoire des Africains entre Égypte et Amérique, 249-270 Paris: Karthala (2000).
ETHNIC POLITICS AND THE FLIGHT FROM SCIENCE. Rocky Mountain Skeptic 17 (#5): 3-4 (September 2000); reprinted in Wonder een is gheen Wonder (Belgium) IN PRESS
DISEASE, ILLNESS AND CURING. The Archaeology of Ancient Mexico and Central America: An Encyclopedia. S.L. Evans and D. L. Webster, eds. New York: Garland Publishing. 2001.
MULTICULTURAL SCIENCE: WHO BENEFITS? Science Education 85: 77-79 (2001).
LA MEDICINA AZTECA. Storia della Sciezia, Sandro Petruccioli, ed. Vol II, pp. 1019-1026. Rome: Istituto della Enciclopedia Italiana. 2001.
THE HUMAN BODY. D. Carrasco, ed. Oxford Encyclopedia of Mesoamerican Cultures, vol II, pp. 23-27 Oxford: Oxford University Press. 2001
GOOD VERSUS BAD CULTURALLY RELEVANT SCIENCE: AVOIDING THE PITFALLS (with Cathleen C. Loving) In M.S. Hines, ed. 2003. Multicultural Science Education: Theory, Practice, and Promise 147-166 N.Y: Peter Lang.
PLANT EVIDENCE FOR CONTACT BETWEEN AFRICA AND THE NEW WORLD. Posted electronically- http://www.thehallofmaat.com. June 2004.
MAGIA MEDICINAL AZTECA.. Arqueología Mexicana XII (#69): 30-33 2004.
MEDICINA Y SALUD EN MESOAMERICA Arqueologia Mexicana XIII (#74) 32-37 (2005)
Here is a review of my book
Author(s): Alfred W. Crosby Reviewed work(s): Aztec Medicine, Health, and Nutrition by Bernard R. Ortiz de Montellano Source: Isis, Vol. 83, No. 3 (Sep., 1992), p. 470
quote:Bernard R. Ortiz de Montellano. Aztec Medicine, Health, and Nutrition. xviii + 308 pp., illus., tables, apps., bibl., index. New Brunswick, N.J./London: Rutgers University Press, 1990. $40 (cloth); $15 (paper). This book will probably stand for years to come as the most important secondary source on its subjects. The author spends the first chapters setting the subject into a context of what we know and can surmise about the Aztecs' culture, religion, and agriculture, and, as well, about their epidemiology and nutrition relative to the latitude, altitude, and carrying capacity of the Basin of Mexico. He goes on to discuss the Aztec view of disease, its causes and cures. There are appendixes-very helpful for those interested in further research-on the nutritional values of the standard items of the Aztecs' diet and on the empirical value of their medicinal herbs. The book ends with folk medicine today, and its blend of pre- Columbian and Spanish (mostly humoral) traditions. All of these matters are controversial, from the size of the population of Meso- America when Cort6s disembarked to the ethnic origin of a given therapy offered by curanderos today. Several of the most prestigious among our experts on sixteenthcentury Mexico estimate that the Aztecs were so numerous on the eve of the conquest that malnutrition was common, so much so that they practiced cannibalism for the sake of protein as much as ritual. Bernard Ortiz de Montellano carefully analyzes all available data, referring many times to the most recent medical and nutritional research, and judges that the population was not pressing upon the carrying capacity of the area and that the people there were well nourished and quite healthy. His arguments are sophisticated, reasonable, and convincing. So, unfortunately, are the arguments of those who disagree: the historical data are not plentiful or clear. My own assessment of pre-Columbian Indian populations depends largely on whom I have read last (a pitiful admission). The central part of the book is devoted to Ortiz de Montellano's specialty, a subject on which we do have a good deal of information: the ancient and contemporary indigenous medicine of central Mexico. This discussion, in Mexico as everywhere else, involves considerable information about alleged supernatural influences. One cannot discuss the attitudes to and the treatment of leprosy in medieval Europe without reference to Christianity, and one cannot consider any number of Mexican physical and mental disorders without reference to Tlaloc, Tepoztecatl, and the like. This section of the book provides some valuable mindbroadening exercise for Europeans and Euro-Americans. The Aztec tonalli, for instance, is sort of like but a good deal unlike the Judeo-Christian soul. When the Aztecs divided up their universe for consideration and manipulation, they did not do so as we do-nor do contemporary Mexican Indians. The book ends with a fascinating and quite convincing chapter on the survival of pre-Columbian elements in Mexican folk medicine today and, as well, on the presence therein of elements borrowed from European tradition. Syncretism in medicine, as in all else, is the rule in the mestizo land of Mexico. ALFRED W. CROSBY
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
As I said before Quetzalcoatl you made your name on the backs of Ivan and Hunter the articles in Current Anthropology, Ethnohistory and American Anthropologist discussed Afrocentrism.
You were a nobody until you pimped Afrocentrism. This is the only work you will be remembered for.
quote:
MULTICULTURAL PSEUDOSCIENCE: SPREADING SCIENTIFIC ILLITERACY AMONG MINORITIES. I. Skeptical Inquirer 16 (#1): 46-50, 1991. Reprinted in Kendrick Frazer, ed. Science, Knowledge, and Belief: Encounters with the Paranormal. Bufffalo, NY: Prometheus Books. 1998. IN PRESS
MAGIC MELANIN: SPREADING SCIENTIFIC ILLITERACY AMONG MINORITIES. II. Skeptical Inquirer 16 (#2): 162-166 1992.
AFROCENTRICITY, MELANIN AND PSEUDOSCIENCE. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36, 33-58 (1993).
PHARAOH WAS NO EINSTEIN. Newsday, July 9, 1995, pp. A36, 38, 39.
MULTICULTURALISM, CULT ARCHAEOLOGY, AND PSEUDOSCIENCE. In F. Harrold and R. Eve, eds., Scientific Creationism and Cult Archaeology (Ames: University of Iowa Press, 1995) pp. 134-151.
AFROCENTRIC PSEUDOSCIENCE: THE MISEDUCATION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS. Annals of the New York Academy of Science. 775: 561-572 (1996)
THE DOGON REVISITED. Skeptical Inquirer, (Nov./Dec): 39-42 (1996).
ROBBING NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURES: VAN SERTIMA AND THE OLMECS. Current Anthropology (with Gabriel Haslip-Viera and Warren Barbour), 38(#3): 419-441 (1997).
THEY WERE NOT HERE BEFORE COLUMBUS: AFROCENTRIC DIFFUSIONISM IN THE 1990’S. Ethnohistory 44 (#2) 1997(with Gabriel Haslip-Viera and Warren Barbour): 199-234.
POST-MODERN MULTICULTURALISM. APS Forum Physics and Society Newslettter, 24 (#4): 3-5 (1997). Reprinted in American Physical Society News 7 (#1 January) 12 (1998).
“BLACK WARRIOR DYNASTS”:L’AFROCENTRISME ET LE NOUVEAU MONDE. In Fauvelle, F.-X., Chretien, J.-P., Perrot, C.-H. (eds.). Afrocentrismes. L’histoire des Africains entre Égypte et Amérique, 249-270 Paris: Karthala (2000).
ETHNIC POLITICS AND THE FLIGHT FROM SCIENCE. Rocky Mountain Skeptic 17 (#5): 3-4 (September 2000); reprinted in Wonder een is gheen Wonder (Belgium) IN PRESS
MULTICULTURAL SCIENCE: WHO BENEFITS? Science Education 85: 77-79 (2001).
GOOD VERSUS BAD CULTURALLY RELEVANT SCIENCE: AVOIDING THE PITFALLS (with Cathleen C. Loving) In M.S. Hines, ed. 2003. Multicultural Science Education: Theory, Practice, and Promise 147-166 N.Y: Peter Lang.
PLANT EVIDENCE FOR CONTACT BETWEEN AFRICA AND THE NEW WORLD. Posted electronically- http://www.thehallofmaat.com. June 2004.
You great Pimp and Deciever.....You
.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: As I said before Quetzalcoatl you made your name on the backs of Ivan and Hunter the articles in Current Anthropology, Ethnohistory and American Anthropologist discussed Afrocentrism.
You were a nobody until you pimped Afrocentrism. This is the only work you will be remembered for.
My “fame” or “infamy” from papers on Afrocentrism extends only to Afrocentrics. Mainstream scholars don’t particularly care. The fact of the matter is that neither Ivan van Sertima nor Clyde Winters has made an impact on mainstream Olmec or Mesoamerican studies. Therefore, there is very little credit in writing critiques. Here is some empirical data Neither Van Sertima nor Clyde Winters is mentioned in the index or the bibliographies of the following:
Collections of essays on the Olmecs
Stark, B. L. and P. J. Arnold, eds. 1997 Olmec to Aztec Tucson: University of Arizona Press.
Clark, J. E. and M. E. Pye, eds. 2000 Olmec Art and Archaeology in MesoamericaNew Haven: Yale University Press
Guthrie, J. 1995 The Olmec World Ritual and Rulership Princeton, NJ: The Art Museum, Princeton University
Benson, E. P. and B. de la Fuente, eds. 1996 Olmec Art of Ancient Mexico Washington: National Gallery of Art
Clark, J. E. ed. 1994 Los Olmecas en Mesoamerica Mexico: El Equilibrista
Texts on the Olmecs
Pool, C. A. 2007 Olmec Archaeology and Early Mesoamerica Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Diehl, R. A. 2004 The Olmecs. America’s First Civilization NY: Thames & Hudson Does not mention Winters and Van Sertiima is only mentioned negatively.
p. 63
quote:The second set of sculptures contains three ColossalHeads placed in a line oriented east to west. David Grove believes they proclaim La Venta’s divine nature personified in its deified ruler, a very appropriate theme for the entrance to the dynastic center. Ivan van Sertima and other “Afrocentric” writers have recently tried to “prove” that the Olmecs were migrants from Africa with the false claims that Matthew W. Stirling found the heads gazing eastwards toward their African homeland. In reality, Stirling clearly stated that all three faced north.
General surveys Mesoamerica No mention of Van Sertima or Winters in bibliography
Evans, S. T. 2004 Ancient Mexico & Central America NY: Thames & Hudson (BOM book)
Lopez Austin, A. and L. Lopez Lujan 2001 Mexico’s Indigenous Past Norman: Univ. Oklahoma Press. [BOM book]
Coe, M. D. and R. Koontz 2002 Mexico. From the Olmecs to the Aztecs 5th ed. NY: Thames & Hudson [BOM cannibal]
Reviews
No mention of Van Sertima or Winters in bibliography
Grove, D. C. 1997 “Olmec Archaeology: A Half Century of Research and Its Accomplishments,” Journal of World Prehistory 11(1); 51-101
Diehl, R. A. 2000 “The Precolumbian Cultures of the Gulf Coast,” in Adams, R. E. W. and MacLeod, M. J. 2000 The Cambridge history of the Native Peoples of the Americas Vol. 11, part 1, pp. 156-197. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Joyce, R. A. and J.S. Henderson 2001 “Beginnings of Village Life in Eastern Mesoamerica,” Latin American Antiquity 12 (1); 5-24
Flannery, K. V. and J. Marcus 2000 “Formative Mexican Chiefdoms and the Myth of the ‘Mother Culture,” Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 19: 1-37
Winters is not mentioned in the following
Olmec writing
Meluzin, S. 1992 “The Tuxtla Script: Steps toward Decipherment Based on La Mojarra Stela 1,” Latin American Antiquity 3(4): 283-297
Macri, M. J., and L. M. Stark 1993 A sign catalog of the La Mojarra script San Francisco: Pre-Columbian Art Research Institute Monograph 5
Kaufman, T. and J. Justeson 2004 “Epi-Olmec,” in Woodard, R. D. ed. The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World’s Ancient Languages, pp.1071-1108 Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Houston, S. D. and M.D. Coe 2003 “Has Isthmian Writing Been Deciphered?” Mexicon 25: 151-161
In books debunking Afrocentrism and/or pseudoarchaeology Van Sertima is mentioned, but not Winters’ linguistic, Olmec, Mayan etc. claims. Only one Winters’ paper is cited and it is one he is qualified to write about Winters, C. 1994 “Afrocentrism: A Valid Frame of Reference,” Journal of Black Studies 25: 170-190
Williams, S. 1991 Fantastic Archaeology Philadelphia: University Pennsylvania Press (VS)
Feder, K. L. 1999 Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries. Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology, 3rd 3Mountain View, CA: Mayfield Publishers (VS)
Fagan, G. G. 2006 Archaeological Fantasies London: Routledge (VS)
Berlinerblau, J. 1999 Heresy in the University. The Black Athena Controversy and the Responsibilities of American IntellectualsNew Brunswick: Rutgers University Press VS)(Winters 1994)
Howe, S. Afrocentrism. Mythical Pasts and Imagined HomesLondon:Verso (VS)(Winters 1994)
Davies, N. 1979 [Voyagers to the New World[/B] Albuquerque: Univ. new Mexico.
Fingerhut, E. R. 1994 Explorers of Pre-Columbian America? The Diffusionist-Inventionism ControversyClaremont, CA:Regina (VS)
Fritze, R. H. 1993 Legend and Lore of the Americas Before 1492 Denver, CO;ABC-CLIO (VS)
Posted by DevilNegrokiller_Wolofi (Member # 15898) on :
Interesting that the vultures of black research and black exploitation is so profitable. Smh we just don't see how VALUABLE we are.
Posted by meninarmer (Member # 12654) on :
LOL, did you believe the whites on this site are here because they CARE about Africa and African resource. They wish to be the future Mary Lefkowitz and write something more then 100 people actually read.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: The fact of the matter is that neither Ivan van Sertima nor Clyde Winters has made an impact on mainstream Olmec or Mesoamerican studies.
Fact is Van Sertima did show you up as the lying scum you are de Montellano. Your only shield is the establishment. And we know from the likes of Lefkowitz et al. that having such a shield doesn't = sound scholarship.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
My most lasting achievement in Olmec studies was popularization of the authentic name the Olmec called themselves in books, newspaper articles and websites.
A History of the African-Olmecs: Black Civilizations of America from Prehistoric Times to the Present Era (Paperback) by Paul Alfred Barton (Author)
Truth submerged shall rise again, New African, Oct 2004 by Barton, Paul
Lynn Gelfand, Ancient/Classical History: New Directions in Folklore 4.2 October, 2000
Enjoy.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: My most lasting achievement in Olmec studies was popularization of the authentic name the Olmec called themselves in books, newspaper articles and websites.
You base your claim on a Post-Classic MAYA claim from Tozzer 1941 But the cite refers to the Tutul Xiu NOT the "Xi'.
Second point-- of the list you presented the only "mainstream" cite is the article by thomas Maugh in the LA Times. Maugh uses the Olmec=Xi but does not attribute it to you or any one else.I know maugh is wrong, but just to be surr I emailed Michael Coe see below
quote: From: OlmecC To: bortiz@ Subject: Re: Olmecs =Xi? Date: Dec 8, 2008 8:35 PM Hi Bernard --
That's baloney! (to give it a polite name). Where did this guy get the notion that the Olmec called themselves "Xi"?
That's a new one to me. Makes one wonder about these so-called science writers.
Best,
Mike
Sorry to intrude again but I saw a claim that the Olmecs called themselves "Xi". I don't think so but an article by Thomas Maugh, who writes for Science, also makes the claim
^ van sertima exposed this coe fellow also. bernard you are a racist bastard.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
I don't know why you keep trying to imply I have not made any presentations before professional organizations. I have presented papers on the Olmec at many national antropological meetings.
Winters, Clyde.(1997). The decipherment of the Olmec writing. 74th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Milwaukee. April.
____________.(1998). Jaguar kings: Olmec Royalty and religious leaders in the first person. 75th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Kansas City, Missouri. April.
___________.(1998). The Olmec Religion. 75th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Kansas City, Missouri. April.
____________.(1999). Olmec symbolism in Mayan Writing. 76th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Chicago, Illinois. April.
____________.(1999). Harappan origins of Yogi. 74th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Chicago, Illinois. April.
____________.(1999). Olmec voices: The syllabic signs. 98th Annual Meeting of the American Anthropological Association . Chicago, Illinois. November.
This shows how people like you and Coe are working overtime to attempt to get people to ignore my work but the people are recognizing my work anyway.
.
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: My most lasting achievement in Olmec studies was popularization of the authentic name the Olmec called themselves in books, newspaper articles and websites.
You base your claim on a Post-Classic MAYA claim from Tozzer 1941 But the cite refers to the Tutul Xiu NOT the "Xi'.
Second point-- of the list you presented the only "mainstream" cite is the article by thomas Maugh in the LA Times. Maugh uses the Olmec=Xi but does not attribute it to you or any one else.I know maugh is wrong, but just to be surr I emailed Michael Coe see below
quote: From: OlmecC To: bortiz@ Subject: Re: Olmecs =Xi? Date: Dec 8, 2008 8:35 PM Hi Bernard --
That's baloney! (to give it a polite name). Where did this guy get the notion that the Olmec called themselves "Xi"?
That's a new one to me. Makes one wonder about these so-called science writers.
Best,
Mike
Sorry to intrude again but I saw a claim that the Olmecs called themselves "Xi". I don't think so but an article by Thomas Maugh, who writes for Science, also makes the claim
quote:Clyde: but the people are recognizing my work anyway.
Yea as pseudo science, and nothing more. Lol
You're not an Afro-centrist, rather an pseudocentrist. Because when we have people like you Clyde, then we will always be brushed off as nothing more than crazy Afro-centrsts. All anyone has to do is read your nonsense, and they dismiss everything. Please stop, or atleast make a REAL correlation, because your distortion of genetics and anthropology are seriously becoming more and more pseudoscientific by the day.
If you actually made sense, I would be glad to promote your work.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Yea as pseudo science, and nothing more.... All anyone has to do is read your nonsense, and they dismiss everything. Please stop, or atleast make a REAL correlation, because your distortion of genetics and anthropology are seriously becoming more and more pseudoscientific by the day
^ is this a confession on your part whiskey? Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben:
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Yea as pseudo science, and nothing more.... All anyone has to do is read your nonsense, and they dismiss everything. Please stop, or atleast make a REAL correlation, because your distortion of genetics and anthropology are seriously becoming more and more pseudoscientific by the day
^ is this a confession on your part whiskey?
I've already intellectually beaten you down, you copycatting unoriginal jackass. When will you get off my nuts?
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I don't know why you keep trying to imply I have not made any presentations before professional organizations. I have presented papers on the Olmec at many national antropological meetings.
Winters, Clyde.(1997). The decipherment of the Olmec writing. 74th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Milwaukee. April.
____________.(1998). Jaguar kings: Olmec Royalty and religious leaders in the first person. 75th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Kansas City, Missouri. April.
___________.(1998). The Olmec Religion. 75th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Kansas City, Missouri. April.
____________.(1999). Olmec symbolism in Mayan Writing. 76th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Chicago, Illinois. April.
____________.(1999). Harappan origins of Yogi. 74th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Chicago, Illinois. April.
____________.(1999). Olmec voices: The syllabic signs. 98th Annual Meeting of the American Anthropological Association . Chicago, Illinois. November.
This shows how people like you and Coe are working overtime to attempt to get people to ignore my work but the people are recognizing my work anyway.
I'm sure Mike Coe is far too busy doing anthropology to bother trying to "get people to ignore your work." If "people are ignoring your work" they are doing it on their own. If anything, what I do is to try to get people to know about your work
What I wrote about above was the fact that your ideas were not making an impact in academic publications on the Olmec and Mesoamerica in general.
As you know, but perhaps other readers don't, is that presentations at meetings are not peer reviewed and are not published. BTW were your presentations poster sessions or part of arranged sessions? If they were arranged sessions, what were the titles of the sessions and the other papers?
If you are so proud of your work on the Mande, Olmec, etc., why aren't these papers listed on the vita you post at work? Here is the vita you post at Governor's State University:
Academic Credentials: Ph.D. Loyola University, 2000, Educational Psychology Minors: Research Methods; Special Education; Curriculum and Instruction M.S. Chicago State University, 1994, Education - Special Education M.A. University of Illinois, 1973, Social Science B.A. University of Illinois, 1973, Sociology/History
Research Interests: Brain-based learning, educational linguistics and student attributions
Publications and Presentations: Books: Career Development Activies for Language Arts and Social Studies (6th Grade Social Studies Lessons). Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1998. Structured Curriculum Handbook A Resource Guide for Grade Six Social Science First Semester. Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1999. Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 9& 10 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1997. Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 6, 7& 8 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1998.
Recent Articles:
Brain based learning and special education. In Thomas E. Deering (Ed.), Teacher Education (pp.128-167), Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut India (ISBN: 81-85126-91-7). Popular culture, critical pedagogy and the African American Print Media". In James J Van Patten (Ed.) The future of Education Issues & Trends (pp.164-184), Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut India (ISBN: 81-85126-102-7) Emotion, neurobiological learning and classroom instruction, Research Journal of Philosophy and Social Science,No.1-2, pp.23-34.
Recent Presentations: Computer Savvy:Parent Attitudes Towards Technology, Poster Presentation: Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, February 28 (2003), Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois. Using technology for problem based social studies projects. Presentation: Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, February 28 (2003),Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois. A Walk Down Memory Lane: Exploring Community History via the Standards. Presentation: Connections Conference, April 16, 2003.Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois. Informed Insight:Parental Attitudes toward technology. Presentation: AERA 2003 Annual Meeting, April 2003. Chicago, Illinois. Clyde Winters, A Walk Down Memory Lane. Presentation Creative Classrooms 2003. September 2003. Chicago, Illinois. Mi Casa,Su Casa:The role of Latino Social Service Centers as an Adjunct to Professional Counseling, September 2003. University of Illinois, Urbana, Illinois. Intimate Voices: Teacher Emic and Etic views of ESL. Midwest Philosophy of Education Society Annual Conference. November 2003, Chicago State University: Chicago, Illinois.
Why don't you list the Afrocentric agenda as a part of your "research agenda" and your list of publications would be much longer if you listed all your other publications.
BTW is "University lecturer" a tenured position?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I don't know why you keep trying to imply I have not made any presentations before professional organizations. I have presented papers on the Olmec at many national antropological meetings.
Winters, Clyde.(1997). The decipherment of the Olmec writing. 74th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Milwaukee. April.
____________.(1998). Jaguar kings: Olmec Royalty and religious leaders in the first person. 75th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Kansas City, Missouri. April.
___________.(1998). The Olmec Religion. 75th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Kansas City, Missouri. April.
____________.(1999). Olmec symbolism in Mayan Writing. 76th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Chicago, Illinois. April.
____________.(1999). Harappan origins of Yogi. 74th Annual Meeting Central States Anthropological Society, Chicago, Illinois. April.
____________.(1999). Olmec voices: The syllabic signs. 98th Annual Meeting of the American Anthropological Association . Chicago, Illinois. November.
This shows how people like you and Coe are working overtime to attempt to get people to ignore my work but the people are recognizing my work anyway.
I'm sure Mike Coe is far too busy doing anthropology to bother trying to "get people to ignore your work." If "people are ignoring your work" they are doing it on their own. If anything, what I do is to try to get people to know about your work
What I wrote about above was the fact that your ideas were not making an impact in academic publications on the Olmec and Mesoamerica in general.
As you know, but perhaps other readers don't, is that presentations at meetings are not peer reviewed and are not published. BTW were your presentations poster sessions or part of arranged sessions? If they were arranged sessions, what were the titles of the sessions and the other papers?
If you are so proud of your work on the Mande, Olmec, etc., why aren't these papers listed on the vita you post at work? Here is the vita you post at Governor's State University:
Academic Credentials: Ph.D. Loyola University, 2000, Educational Psychology Minors: Research Methods; Special Education; Curriculum and Instruction M.S. Chicago State University, 1994, Education - Special Education M.A. University of Illinois, 1973, Social Science B.A. University of Illinois, 1973, Sociology/History
Research Interests: Brain-based learning, educational linguistics and student attributions
Publications and Presentations: Books: Career Development Activies for Language Arts and Social Studies (6th Grade Social Studies Lessons). Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1998. Structured Curriculum Handbook A Resource Guide for Grade Six Social Science First Semester. Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1999. Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 9& 10 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1997. Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 6, 7& 8 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1998.
Recent Articles:
Brain based learning and special education. In Thomas E. Deering (Ed.), Teacher Education (pp.128-167), Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut India (ISBN: 81-85126-91-7). Popular culture, critical pedagogy and the African American Print Media". In James J Van Patten (Ed.) The future of Education Issues & Trends (pp.164-184), Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut India (ISBN: 81-85126-102-7) Emotion, neurobiological learning and classroom instruction, Research Journal of Philosophy and Social Science,No.1-2, pp.23-34.
Recent Presentations: Computer Savvy:Parent Attitudes Towards Technology, Poster Presentation: Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, February 28 (2003), Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois. Using technology for problem based social studies projects. Presentation: Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, February 28 (2003),Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois. A Walk Down Memory Lane: Exploring Community History via the Standards. Presentation: Connections Conference, April 16, 2003.Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois. Informed Insight:Parental Attitudes toward technology. Presentation: AERA 2003 Annual Meeting, April 2003. Chicago, Illinois. Clyde Winters, A Walk Down Memory Lane. Presentation Creative Classrooms 2003. September 2003. Chicago, Illinois. Mi Casa,Su Casa:The role of Latino Social Service Centers as an Adjunct to Professional Counseling, September 2003. University of Illinois, Urbana, Illinois. Intimate Voices: Teacher Emic and Etic views of ESL. Midwest Philosophy of Education Society Annual Conference. November 2003, Chicago State University: Chicago, Illinois.
Why don't you list the Afrocentric agenda as a part of your "research agenda" and your list of publications would be much longer if you listed all your other publications.
BTW is "University lecturer" a tenured position?
You're full of it as usual. You can not present a paper at a conference unless is is reviewed by your peers before it is allowed on the program. These presentations were all papers, not posters.
The programs are on-line if you desire further details.
.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [Q]You're full of it as usual. You can not present a paper at a conference unless is is reviewed by your peers before it is allowed on the program. These presentations were all papers, not posters.
The programs are on-line if you desire further details.
.
Not only have I presented a number of times at different national meetings (Am Anthropological Association, Am. Assoc, for the Advancement of Science) not regional meetings like the Central States-- where my graduate students went to practice, but I organized sessions. They are NOT "peer reviewed" like journal articles and they are not published.
I would love to see the URLs of these sessions. I looked and could not get the AAA 1999 Meeting Abstracts on line for example.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^ did you debate van sertima at those "national meetings" bernard? Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: ^ did you debate van sertima at those "national meetings" bernard?
As I pointed out earlier my academic reputation was made before I wrote about Van Sertima. Most of the papers presented at these meetings dealt with my work on Aztec medicine.
I did do some presentations on "Afrocentric science" but there wasn't enough interest in the Anthropological Association to get the African-Olmec connection on the program although I organized and proposed a session on this.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
I never asked you about your condescending proposal of "Afrocentric science". Did you debate Van Sertima, yes or no?
especially after he showed you up as a slimy lying weasel.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: I never asked you about your condescending proposal of "Afrocentric science". Did you debate Van Sertima, yes or no?
especially after he showed you up as a slimy lying weasel.
As I have repeatedly shown here, to adequately deal with claims such as Winters' and Van Sertima's requires extensive research to find and document accurately what sources actually say. This means that the proper way to "debate" is in writing.
As to who has been exposed. One of many possible examples
Van Sertima 1998 Early America Revisited regarding our 1997 paper G. Haslip-Viera, B. R. Ortiz de Montellano and W. Barbour, "Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima and the Olmecs," Current Anthropology, 38 (#3): 419-441 (1997) says:
quote: p. 138 VS LIE SEVEN “They indulge in an even more vicious dishonesty with regard to cotton, claiming that I said ‘Old World cottons came to America with a fleet of Nubians circa 700 B.C.’ I never linked cotton transfer to Nubian contact.”
What we actually wrote (1997: 429) says
quote: “Van Sertima (1976: 180-191; 1992) argues based on Stephens (1966), that cotton seeds would not float and retain their viability long enough to cross the Atlantic or the Pacific, although they could make journeys of up to 1000 miles. He then argues that the "seeds of the African diploid cotton could not [emphasis original] have drifted by themselves across the ocean but had to come to the New World in the hands of African men.... that African man, bearing cotton, made a drift journey to the Americas in the fourth millennium B. C. (Van Sertima 1976: 190)." [footnote 28].
footnote 28 says
quote: It is hard to see how a purely conjectural cotton-bearing voyage (from where?, or on what conceivable vessel?) in the 4th millennium B.C. supports or proves Egypto-Nubian contact in 700 B.C.”
What an honest scholar would do would be to actually go to Van Sertima's book They Came Before Columbus p. 180-191 especially p. 190 And to our paper p. 429 AND footnote 28 and see who is quoting accurately.
Further, in the 1997 paper we proved that Van Sertima's claims that Africans brought cotton to the New World were erroneous
quote: p. 437 Recent work on cotton completely eliminates any possibility of human involvement in the hybridization of New World cotton. Wendel and co-workers (Wendel 1989,Percy and Wendel 1990, Wendel and Albert 1992) have proved that the hybridization of diploid African cottons and diploid New World cottons resulting in the tetraploid cottons found in the New World, claimed as evidence for diffusion, took place before the emergence humans, 1 to 2 million years ago.
Van Sertima does not mention this.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Look man, don't talk rubbish. Academics do open debates as well as writing. You just don't want to suffer the same fate that Sephen Howe, Mary Lefkowitz and Rogers suffered. You don't want to be exposed as the lying weasel you are. So you prefer to hide behind the establishment to twist, lie, insult and block free and objective exchange of ideas.
Nice nit picking by the way, but you were linking it to the Egypto-Nubian contact in 700 B.C. but p. 190 he was not. And you are accused of even bigger omissions. In any event he revised a lot of his work in Early America Revisited. Do you still see ancient Egypt as not black? You still have racist nineteenth century Coonian views on "true negroes" and what not? Do yo still think tools were too blunt to make straight noses etc? Or was that Coe.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: Why don't you list the Afrocentric agenda as a part of your "research agenda" and your list of publications would be much longer if you listed all your other publications.
BTW is "University lecturer" a tenured position?
Lecturer is not a tenured publication.
I don't list all of my publications because there is not enough room in the format of the Faculty List.
Below is a list of my publications in Educational Psychology, Research Methods, and Learning. One of my major interest is Brain Based Learning.
PUBLICATIONS Books Clyde Winters, Brain Based Learning and Special Education, Shivaji Road, Meerut (India): Anu Books,2004.
_____________, Career Development Activies for Language Arts and Social Studies (6th Grade Social Studies Lessons). Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1998.
_____________, Structured Curriculum Handbook A Resource Guide for Grade Six Social Science First Semester. Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1999.
______________, (Program of Study Committee).Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 9& 10 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1997.
______________, (Program of Study Committee).Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 6, 7& 8 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1998.
I participated in the development of the second edition of: A.A. Glatthorn, F. Boschee, and B.M. Whitehead, Curriculum Leadership: Strategies for development and Implementation (see: pg.xxiv).
Articles
Clyde A. Winters,"Contemporary Trends in Traditional Chinese Islamic Education". INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF EDUCATION, 30(4):475 479. ___________________. 1987. "Koranic Education and Militant Islam in Nigeria". INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF EDUCATION, 33(2):171 185. ___________________. 1987b. "Traditional and contemporary Trends in Chinese Muslim Education",MUSLIM EDUCATION QUARTERLY ,4(4):52 65. ___________________. 1988. "Contemporary Trends in Chinese Muslim Education". MUSLIM EDUCATION QUARTERLY,4(4):52 65.
___________________. 1988b. "ISLAMIZATION AND EDUCATION IN MUSLIM CHINA".THE MUSLIM WORLD LEAGUE JOURNAL, 15:18 23. ___________________. 1988c. "Psychology Test and Black Police Recruits",LABOR LAW JOURNAL, 39(9):634 636. ___________________. 1988d. "Police Quotas", CHICAGO TRIBUNE,9 December,Sec.1, p.26.
___________________. 1989. "Psychology Test, Suits and Minority Applicants", THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXll (l):22 30.
__________________. 1989b. "Chicago Female Police", THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXll (2):136 142. __________________. 1990. "Problems of Variance in the Utility of the MMPI in the Selection of Metropolitan Police",THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXlll (2):121 128.
___________________. 1991. "Informal Assessment of Special Needs Adults and K W L Plus in Correctional Education". ADULT EDUCATION Connection 4(3):5. ___________________. 1991b. "Hispanics and Policing in Chicago and Cook County, Illinois". THE POLICE JOURNAL, LXlV (l):71 75. Mathews,M &________. 1992. Bibliotherapy and the Life centered curriculum for Offender populations in prison, Yearbook of Correctional Education, pp. 61-68. ___________________. 1993. "A Theoretical Model for Correctional Education in the U.S.". THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXVI (2):211-219. -----------------, et al. 1993. "The Role of a Computer-Managed Instructional System's Prescriptive Curriculum in the Basic Skills Areas of Math and Reading Scores for Correctional Pre-Trial Detainees". THE JOURNAL OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION, 44(1):10-19. ----------------.1993. "The Therapeutic use of the Essay in Corrections", JOURNAL OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION,44(2):58-61. ----------,et al..1993. "An Education Policy for Large Jail Programs:A Case Study". THE JOURNAL OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION, 44, (3): 124-133. -------------------.1993. "Making Math Easy for the Unique Learner".ADULT & CONTINUING EDUCATION TODAY,XXIII (10):5.
------------------.1994. "Non-Standard English and Reading". ERIC Clearinghouse on Reading, English and Communication. ED 358 438. 13 pp. __________________.1994. "The Application of Neurobiological Research in Special Education Instruction". Special Issue: Knowledge Production and Educational Change for Democratic Renewal, PART II: Implications for Educational Policy: Transforming Educational Practice. Thresholds in Education, 20 (2 & 3), 36-42.
_________________.1995a. "Inmate Opinions Towards Education and Participation in Prison Education Programmes". The Police Journal, LXVII, 39-50.
_________________.1995b. IACEA Survey of correctional educators. Keeping Pace, (Newsletter Illinois Adult and Continuing Educators Association,Inc.) 13 (1), Spring, p.15.
________________.1995c. Neurobiological Learning and Adult Literacy, ERIC Clearinghouse on Reading & Communication Skills. ED 385 740.
________________.1995d. Gang's, Drugs and Violence. Teacher's Guide. Chicago: Gangs, Drugs and Violence Prevention Consultants. ________________.1996a. "Adult Math Learning Difficulty Among Offender Students". The Criminologist 20, (2), 75-80.
_________________.1996c. "The Effects of Never-married Parenthood on Offender Non-marital Fatherhood". Police Journal LXIX (3), 262-265.
________________.1996d. "Adult Learning and Multisensory Teaching. ERIC Clearinghouse . ED 393 966. 16p.
________________.1996e. Concentrations of Poverty and Urban Gangs. The Criminologist, 20 (4), 217-228.
________________.1996f. Foundations of the Afrocentric Ancient History Curriculum, The Negro Educational Review, XLVII (3-4), 214-217.
________________.1997. Learning Disabilities, Crime, Delinquency, and Special Education Placement. Adolescence , 32 (126), 451-62. _______________. 1998. Urban American youth and correctional education.The Criminologist, 22(1), 15-20.
_____________. 1998a.Ebonics and special education placement. The Negro Educational Review, 19 (1-2), 83-86. ____________. 1998b.Communication theory and its implication for teaching and offender rehabilitation. The Criminologist, 22 (3),131-136. ___________.1998.Dewey, correctional education and offender habilitation.Police Journal, 59(6), 341-348.
___________.2000."Making math easy for the learning disabled adolescents: Neurobiology and the use of math manipulatives. Review Journal of Philosophy and Social Science, 25 (1&2), 58-68.
___________.2000. Neurological Basis Cognition, Emotion and Classroom Instruction. Research Journal of Philosophy and Social Sciences, 25 (1&2), 39-44.
___________.2002. Brain based learning and special education. In Thomas E. Deering (Ed.), Teacher Education (pp.128-167), Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut India (ISBN: 81-85126-91-7).
____________.2003. Popular culture, critical pedagogy and the African American Print Media". In James J Van Patten (Ed.) The future of Education Issues & Trends (pp.164-184), Anu Books, Shivaji Road, Meerut India (ISBN: 81-85126-102-7)
____________.(2003). Emotion, neurobiological learning and classroom instruction, Research Journal of Philosophy and Social Science,No.1-2, pp.23-34.
____________.(2005). Teaching matters: Phonological Brain based teaching methods and reading improvement. Research Journal Philosophy & Social Science, 31 (1-2), 33-46.
____________.(2005). Dewey and the organization of learning on the World Wide Web. In Midwest Philosophy of Education Society: Proceedings of Midwest Philosophy of Education Society Annual Conferences 2001-2003, (ED.) O. Jagusah, D. Smith, A. Makedon (pp. 565-575). Author House, Bloomington, IN. 47403.
____________.(2005). Predator or Victim:The role of correctional education, offender habitation and democracy. In Midwest Philosophy of Education Society: Proceedings of Midwest Philosophy of Education Society Annual Conferences 2001-2003, (ED.) O. Jagusah, D. Smith, A. Makedon (pp. 576-593). Author House, Bloomington, IN. 47403.
_____________.(2005). Infusing an international curriculum in the Division of Education.Paul Keys (Ed.), Globalization and Education:The University in the Interdependent World of the Twenty-First Century (pp.13-18). Occasional Papers. International Colloquium Governors State University May 2004. University PK., Illinois: Governors State University.
_____________.(2006). E-Pedagogy and the Student Social Science Research Community. Review Journal of Philosophy and Social Science, 31, 1&2, 75-104.
___________(2007).Ignite Student Learning:Insights from a Neurologist and Classroom Teacher, in the TCRecord , 16 February 2007.
____________(2007).Planning for Disaster Education Policy in the Wake of Hurricane Katrina, Multicultural Education,15(2) (2007): 39-42
CONFERENCE PRESENTATIONS
"Learning Disabilities and Correctional Education",13th Annual Illinois Adult and Continuing Education Association (IACEA), March 27,1992. Oak Brook, Illinois.
"Making Math Easy for the Learning Disabled",Partnerships for Literacy X Conference, February 3,1993. Chicago, Illinois.
"One + One= Success: Hands On Math for Adult Learners", 14th Annual IACEA Conference, March 23, 1993. Springfield, Ill.
"Creating High Interest Reading Materials for the Older ABE Student",2nd Annual Adult Learning Skills Program Conference, April 17, 1993. Chicago.
"Communication Theory and Its Implications for Teaching and Offender Rehabilitation", International Correctional Education Association 48th Annual Conference, July 13,1993 . Chicago.
"The Applications of Neurobiological Research to Special Education Instruction", 3rd Annual Research Symposium, Thresholds in Education Foundation, October 8,1993. Northern Illinois University, Dekalb, Illinois.
"Enriching the Multicultural World and U.S. History Curriculum" , Multicultural Forum, The Chicago Teachers Union, February 22, 1995. Chicago, Illinois.
"The Potential of the Neurobiological Knowledge Base on the Education of Individuals with Learning Disabilities, 17th International Conference on Learning Disabilities, October 27, 1995. Chicago.
"Resources on Islam in Central Asia", Resources for Central Asian Studies workshop on Contemporary Methodologies, May 19, 1996. Ohio State University: Middle East Studies Center. Columbus Ohio.
"Egyptian Tour", Creative Classrooms. September 27, 1997. Chicago Foundation for Education. Chicago Illinois.
"Biblioconscientization and Multicultural Literacy", 19th International Conference on Learning Disabilities, October 25, 1997. Arlington, Virginia.
"A Multicultural/ Global View of Good Teaching", Education and Social Transition in a Global Society, November 1, 1997. Midwest Comparative and International Education Society Conference. University of Illinois. Urbana, Illinois.
"Vygotsky, Biblioconscientioustization and the role of training Pre-Service teachers in the Social Transition of Contemporary Students in a Global Society", November 2,1997.Midwest Comparative and International Education Society Conference . University of Illinois. Urbana, Cognition, Dewey, and the Organization of Teacher Education and Small Schools", Midwest Philosophy of Education Society Annual Conference: November 7, 1998. Loyola University Chicago. "Cognition, Dewey and the organization of teacher education in Small Schools", Midwest Philosophy of Education Society, 7 November 1998, Loyola University, Chicago.
"Dewey Correctional education, and Offender habilitation", Midwest Philosophy of Education Society, 6 November 1998, Loyola University, Chicago.
"Brain-based methods for teaching math", CPS 5th Annual Miniconference Under the Umbrella, 22 January 1999, Malcolm X College, Chicago.
"Olmec Symbolism in Mayan Writing", Panel: Mexico and Guatemala: Invented Traditions and Abiding Symbols. Central States Anthropological Society, 16 April 1999, Chicago.
"Harappan Origins of Yoga", Panel Religion and the Sacred Self. The Anthropology of Religion Section of the AAA, 17 April 1999, Chicago.
"Young People Accessing Future Careers", Connections’99, 20 April 1999, Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles, Illinois.
"The potential impact of the neurobiological knowledge base in the Education of the Learning Disabled", Roundtable: Brain and Education, American Educational Research Association, 23 April 1999, Montreal, Canada.
"Wings to the World of Social Studies", Area VII Hub Technology Leadership & Mentors Conference,24 September, Chicago,Illinois.
"Corey H Inclusion and School Change", 21st International Conference on Learning Disabilities, 16 October 1999, Minneapolis, Minnesota.
"Wings to the Afrocentric Internet World", Chicago Public Schools Rising to the Challenge Annual Professional Development Conference, Navy Pier, 29 October 1999, Chicago, Illinois.
"Rocket to Success", ICE Educational Technology Conference '99, 12 November 1999, Naperville, Illinois. "Music Across the Ages", Creative Classroom 2000 Workshop: September 9, 2000.
"Internet to Teach Community History", Illinois Education and Technology Conference: October 16, 2000. Springfield , Illinois.
"The Sky's No Limit:Students making their Own Business", Illinois Education and Technology Conference: October 16, 2000. Springfield , Illinois.
"Motivations behind Inmate Participation in Correctional Education Programs", Mid-Western Educational Research Association Conference: October 26, 2000, Chicago, Illinois.
Clyde Winters,Computer Savvy:Parent Attitudes Towards Technology, Poster Presentation: Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, February 28 (2003), Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Using technology for problem based social studies projects. Presentation: Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, February 28 (2003),Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois.
Clyde Winters, A Walk Down Memory Lane: Exploring Community History via the Standards. Presentation: Connections Conference, April 16, 2003.Pheasant Run Resort, St. Charles Illinois.
Clyde Winters,Informed Insight:Parental Attitudes toward technology. Presentation: AERA 2003 Annual Meeting, April 2003. Chicago, Illinois. Clyde Winters, A Walk Down Memory Lane. Presentation Creative Classrooms 2003. September 2003. Chicago, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Mi Casa,Su Casa:The role of Latino Social Service Centers as an Adjunct to Professional Counseling, September 2003. University of Illinois, Urbana, Illinois.
Clyde Winters , Intimate Voices: Teacher Emic and Etic views of ESL. Midwest Philosophy of Education Society Annual Conference. November 2003, Chicago State University: Chicago, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Using Computers to prepare exceptional children For the World of Work, February 2004. Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, Pheasant Run, St.Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Student Attitudes on Hands –on Science. February 2004. Illinois Technology Conference for Educators, Pheasant Run, St.Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Teaching for Substance: Brain based Teaching and Special Students, 2004 Connections Conference, April 2004, February 2004, Pheasant Run, St.Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Brain based teaching: Back to the Basics. 2005 Illinois Technology Conference for Educators. Pheasant Run, St.Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, A sociocultural view of technology and learning:Coming to grips with the digital divide.Technology & Knowledge in an Open Society, February 2005, Berkeley, California.
Clyde Winters, Teacher self-efficacy and emotional intelligence, 2005 Midwest Philosophy of Education Society, November 2005, National Louis University, Chicago, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, From Chaos to Order: Coping with educational challenges after natural disasters or a terrorist attack. Illinois Association of Teacher Educators 35th Annual Fall Conference, November 2005, Eastern Illinois University, Charleston, Illinois.
Clyde Winters,Race and Identity:Ancient relations between Africans and Mexicans.Vernacular Colloquium 2005. October 2005, The Universidad de las Americas Puebla, Puebla, Mexico.
Clyde Winters, Keepin’ it Real: Using Technology in Concert with Emotional Intelligence and Empathy to Promote Student Achievement. IL-TCE: Illinois Computing Educators 2006 Conference.March 3,2006, Pheasant Run Resort & Convention Center, St. Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters,Flamin’ Hots and Soda Pop: Addressing Issues of Obesity in the Schools. IL-TCE: Illinois Computing Educators 2006 Conference.March 3,2006, Pheasant Run Resort & Convention Center, St. Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Using Emotion to Motivate Students to Learn. 2006 Connections Conference. April 12,2006. Crowne Plaza Hotel, Springfield, Illinois.
Clyde Winters,Teacher Perspectives on Global Education.Poster Session 1. IL-TCE: Illinois Computing Educators 2007 Conference.March 2,2007, Pheasant Run Resort & Convention Center, St. Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters, Using Computers in the implementation of Differentiated Instruction in the Intermediate Classroom. IL-TCE: Illinois Computing Educators 2007 Conference.March 2,2007, Pheasant Run Resort & Convention Center, St. Charles, Illinois.
Clyde Winters,Planning for Disaster. American Educational Research Association, 2007 Annual Meeting. April 9,2007. Chicago, Illinois.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: I would love to see the URLs of these sessions. I looked and could not get the AAA 1999 Meeting Abstracts on line for example.
Here is the Program
Note that the program says "Reviewed by archaeology Division".
This is peer review.
Quetzalcoatl You Great Deciever.....You.
.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: Why don't you list the Afrocentric agenda as a part of your "research agenda" and your list of publications would be much longer if you listed all your other publications.
BTW is "University lecturer" a tenured position?
Lecturer is not a tenured publication.
I don't list all of my publications because there is not enough room in the format of the Faculty List.
Below is a list of my publications in Educational Psychology, Research Methods, and Learning. One of my major interest is Brain Based Learning.
[list] [*]PUBLICATIONS Books Clyde Winters, Brain Based Learning and Special Education, Shivaji Road, Meerut (India): Anu Books,2004.
_____________, Career Development Activies for Language Arts and Social Studies (6th Grade Social Studies Lessons). Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1998.
_____________, Structured Curriculum Handbook A Resource Guide for Grade Six Social Science First Semester. Chicago: Chicago Public Schools, 1999.
______________, (Program of Study Committee).Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 9& 10 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1997.
______________, (Program of Study Committee).Expecting More: Program of Study Grades 6, 7& 8 Social Science. Chicago: Chicago Board of Education, 1998.
I participated in the development of the second edition of: A.A. Glatthorn, F. Boschee, and B.M. Whitehead, Curriculum Leadership: Strategies for development and Implementation (see: pg.xxiv).
Articles
Clyde A. Winters,"Contemporary Trends in Traditional Chinese Islamic Education". INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF EDUCATION, 30(4):475 479. ___________________. 1987. "Koranic Education and Militant Islam in Nigeria". INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF EDUCATION, 33(2):171 185. ___________________. 1987b. "Traditional and contemporary Trends in Chinese Muslim Education",MUSLIM EDUCATION QUARTERLY ,4(4):52 65. ___________________. 1988. "Contemporary Trends in Chinese Muslim Education". MUSLIM EDUCATION QUARTERLY,4(4):52 65.
___________________. 1988b. "ISLAMIZATION AND EDUCATION IN MUSLIM CHINA".THE MUSLIM WORLD LEAGUE JOURNAL, 15:18 23. ___________________. 1988c. "Psychology Test and Black Police Recruits",LABOR LAW JOURNAL, 39(9):634 636. ___________________. 1988d. "Police Quotas", CHICAGO TRIBUNE,9 December,Sec.1, p.26.
___________________. 1989. "Psychology Test, Suits and Minority Applicants", THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXll (l):22 30.
__________________. 1989b. "Chicago Female Police", THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXll (2):136 142. __________________. 1990. "Problems of Variance in the Utility of the MMPI in the Selection of Metropolitan Police",THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXlll (2):121 128.
___________________. 1991. "Informal Assessment of Special Needs Adults and K W L Plus in Correctional Education". ADULT EDUCATION Connection 4(3):5. ___________________. 1991b. "Hispanics and Policing in Chicago and Cook County, Illinois". THE POLICE JOURNAL, LXlV (l):71 75. Mathews,M &________. 1992. Bibliotherapy and the Life centered curriculum for Offender populations in prison, Yearbook of Correctional Education, pp. 61-68. ___________________. 1993. "A Theoretical Model for Correctional Education in the U.S.". THE POLICE JOURNAL,LXVI (2):211-219. -----------------, et al. 1993. "The Role of a Computer-Managed Instructional System's Prescriptive Curriculum in the Basic Skills Areas of Math and Reading Scores for Correctional Pre-Trial Detainees". THE JOURNAL OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION, 44(1):10-19. ----------------.1993. "The Therapeutic use of the Essay in Corrections", JOURNAL OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION,44(2):58-61. ----------,et al..1993. "An Education Policy for Large Jail Programs:A Case Study". THE JOURNAL OF CORRECTIONAL EDUCATION, 44, (3): 124-133.
I just found it interesting that you did not list your Afrocentric research as one of your research areas.
All these publications and no tenure Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: I would love to see the URLs of these sessions. I looked and could not get the AAA 1999 Meeting Abstracts on line for example.
Here is the Program
Note that the program says "Reviewed by archaeology Division".
This is peer review.
Quetzalcoatl You Great Deciever.....You.
.
Thanks. it wasn't on line. What was your talk about? Do you have the abstract available. Did you read the "Olmec signs" in Mande using Vai script?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Hard to tell sometimes whether you two are fighting or, uh...kissing.
Posted by Shisha-Master (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Hard to tell sometimes whether you two are fighting or, uh...kissing.
WTFZOMGLOLBBQ
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: Look man, don't talk rubbish. Academics do open debates as well as writing. You just don't want to suffer the same fate that Sephen Howe, Mary Lefkowitz and Rogers suffered. You don't want to be exposed as the lying weasel you are. So you prefer to hide behind the establishment to twist, lie, insult and block free and objective exchange of ideas.
You misunderstand what I've tried to do. What I want to do is to publish articles in as prestigious referred journals as I can because that gives them academic credibility. My intended audience are Mesoamerican scholars to provide them with copiously documented rebuttals of inaccurate claims. Most working Mesoamerican scholars don't have the time or inclination to do the labor intensive work of digging up all the obscure and/obsolete references. Researching and publishing about Mesoamerica is what provides academic rewards and credit. As I mentioned before, there is little academic credit to what I do in this area. My problem, for example, with regard to Winters' work is that I haven't been able to figure out where to publish it. It was hard enough to get Current Anthropology to publish our Van Sertima article and, furthermore, most journals will not give me the number of pages that would be needed. Eventually, it may have to be a book, if I can convince an academic press.
quote:Nice nit picking by the way, but you were linking it to the Egypto-Nubian contact in 700 B.C. but p. 190 he was not. And you are accused of even bigger omissions. In any event he revised a lot of his work in Early America Revisited. Do you still see ancient Egypt as not black? You still have racist nineteenth century Coonian views on "true negroes" and what not? Do yo still think tools were too blunt to make straight noses etc? Or was that Coe.
We were not "linking Egypto-Nubian" the exact opposite we said that the argument about African cotton did not provide evidence of a trip in 700 BC.
Van Sertima did revise his argument. He shifted the date of the contact with the New World because the colossal Olmec heads had been dated to 1100 BC and thus would have been made several hundred years BEFORE the presumed contact at 700 BC. However, this causes a different problem. Egypt had not erected pyramids for several hundred years by 1100 and could not have been the model for Mesoamerican pyramids. Van Sertima had argued that by 700 BC there were Nubian pyramids as models.
Van Sertima also introduced new material but it was also problematic for instance, from a different publication of mine:
guanín Van Sertima (1995; 1998:3-4) claims that Columbus described an African artifact in the journals of his 3rd voyage.(5)
quote:Columbus wanted to find out what the Indians of Española had told him, that there had come from the south and the southeast, Negro people, who brought those spear points made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the king and queen for assay which [sic] was found to have 32 parts- 18 of gold, 6 of silver, and 8 of copper (Thacher 1903-1904: vol. 2, 380).(6)
Van Sertima continues,
quote: “The proportion of gold, silver, and copper alloys were found to be identical with spears being forged at that time in African Guinea. Apart from the eyewitness testimony of the Native Americans, here is incontestable metallurgical evidence from Europeans themselves (their meticulous assays establishing the identical proportions of metal alloys in the spears found in the Caribbean and the spears made in Guinea) (Van Sertima 1998: 3).”
Even though our primary focus is on the Olmec period, we need to briefly deal with Van Sertima’s claims that guanín is an artifact. Van Sertima presents the claim of identity between African and New World alloy spears as if it were a continuing paraphrase of the quote from Columbus. In fact, neither Thacher, Las Casas, Columbus nor anyone else says anything about African gold spears, their analysis, or their identity with the gold alloy from the New World.(7) Van Sertima asserts this identity with no evidence whatsoever. This complete lack of evidence disposes of his claim, but we will discuss the matter briefly. Copper/gold and copper/gold/silver alloys are not distinguished from each other and are referred to generically as tumbaga.(8) Guanín is a word in Arawak, the language of the inhabitants of Hispaniola, not Mandingo and was, therefore, not imported. Rivet and Arsandaux (1946: 60 ff.) show that in many Arawakan languages words like guanín or guani and words resembling karakoli, in Carib languages, designate tumbaga alloys. In his discussion of this issue, Van Sertima relies on the Afrocentric hyperdiffusionist Harold Lawrence, not on Columbus and the early chroniclers. Lawrence (1987) claims that "Mandinga traders” from West Africa made “several” voyages to the Americas after 1300 and established colonies in Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Venezuela, and the island of St. Vincent. In any case alloys in Africa were not the same as Columbus’ guanín. Lawrence, Van Sertima’s source, cites Bosman (1967) for the composition of gold alloy objects (though not spear heads). For comparison, Moche tumbagas are also provided (Lechtman 1988). The composition is given in percentages to facilitate comparison. gold copper silver Columbus-guanin56% 25% 19%
Guinea 50% 25% 25%
Guinea 65% 17.2% 17.2%
Mochica 31% 60% 10%
Moche 68% 13% 19%
Moche 67% 11% 22%
The proportions of this ternary alloy vary so widely that a particular composition is not an identifying marker.(9) Columbus found natives trading all kinds of objects (not just spear points) made from guanín in the whole region of Central America and Venezuela (Morison 1942: 265, 589). This was to be expected, because copper/gold and copper/silver/gold alloys were first made by the Moche culture of Peru about A.D. 100 (Lechtman, Erlij, and Barry 1982) and eventually diffused through the New World reaching Western Mexico about A.D. 1200 (Hosler 1994: 127). There is no need to posit diffusion of this alloy to the circum-Caribbean region from Africa because gold/copper/silver alloys were being made in neighboring South America 1400 years before Columbus’ journey.
Notes 5-9; (5) Morison (1963: 259) says that Bartolomé de Las Casas made an abstract of the journal of the Third Voyage. This manuscript was first printed in full by De Lolis in Raccolta I ii 1-25 and “so far as I can ascertain, the only English translation published is an unreliable one in Thacher... [This is the source used by Van Sertima].” An abstract of a scribe’s report of statements from Christopher Columbus is not quite the equivalent of a “controlled archaeological dig” in evaluating an artifact. (6) Thacher is not quoted correctly- it should read- “... he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people, who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call ‘guanin’ of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver, and 8 of copper.” It is also problematic that Thacher was used (presumably because that is what Wiener used) when a better and more accessible translation (Morison 1963: 263) was available. (7) Why Africans would limit themselves to bring soft gold tipped spears to the New World is beyond us. Africans smelted iron and steel by 600 B.C. in Tanzania (Schmidt and Childs 1995; Schmidt 1996), and iron tools reached West Africa 2000 years ago, fueling the Bantu explosion that populated Central Africa (Diamond 1994). Columbus and his editor, Bartolomé de Las Casas, were convinced that Africans had not come to the Americas because the two continents were too distant from each other (Morison 1963: 271; Thacher 1903-04: vol. 2, 392-393). (8) Tumbaga is a Sanskrit loan word for copper which came to the New World via Tagalog (Philippines) and Spanish, and in turn, copper/gold alloys taken to the Far East by the Spanish were called tumbaga (Blust 1992). (9) Rivet and Arsandaux (1946: 48-59) found tumbaga objects with a gold content ranging from 11% to 81% and copper ranging from 18% to 87%>
bibliography
Blust, R. 1992. “Tumbaga in Southeast Asia and South America,” Anthropos 87: 443- 457. Bosman, W. 1967 [1705]. A New and Accurate Description of the Coast of Guinea. London: Frank Cass & Co. Diamond, J. 1994. “How Africa Became Black,” Discover (February): 72-81. Hosler, D. 1994. The Sounds and Colors of Power. The Sacred Metallurgical Technology of Ancient West Mexico. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press. Lawrence, H. 1987. “Mandinga Voyages Across the Atlantic,” in African Presence in Early America. edited by I. Van Sertima. 55-81. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books. Lechtman, H. 1988. “Tradition and Styles in Central Andean Metalworking,” In The Beginning of the Use of Metals and Alloys, ed. R. Maddin. 344-378. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press. Lechtman, H., A. Erlij, and E. J. Barry. 1982. “New Perspectives on Moche Metallurgy: Techniques of Gilding Copper at Loma Negra, Northern Peru.” Antiquity. 47: 3-30. Morison, S.E. 1942. Admiral of the Open Sea. A Life of Christopher Columbus. Boston: Little Brown. ---- trans. and ed. 1963. Journals and Other Documents on the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus New York:The Heritage Press. Rivet, P. and H. Arsandaux. 1946. La Métallurgie en Amérique Précolombienne. Paris: Institut d’Ethnologie, Musée de l’Homme. Schmidt, P. R., ed. 1996. The Culture and Technology of African Iron Production. Gainesville, FL: University Press of Florida. Schmidt, P. R. and S. T. Childs. 1995. “Ancient African Iron Production,” American Scientist 83: 524-533. Thacher, J.B. 1903-1904. Christopher Columbus. His Life, His Works, His Remains. NY: G.P. Putnam’s Sons. Van Sertima, I. 1998. Early America Revisited. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.
Posted by DevilNegrokiller_Wolofi (Member # 15898) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: I would love to see the URLs of these sessions. I looked and could not get the AAA 1999 Meeting Abstracts on line for example.
Here is the Program
Note that the program says "Reviewed by archaeology Division".
This is peer review.
Quetzalcoatl You Great Deciever.....You.
.
Wow Clyde Im impressed
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Bumped for LoLo (from Fiji?). Start from page 1 of 5.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
Fijans aren't from East Africa. You black people have no business wanting Fijans to be from East Africa. Those people belong to Asian stock so get over it.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^^And why are Fijians not from Africa?
Remind me again??
Lion!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: Fijans aren't from East Africa. You black people have no business wanting Fijans to be from East Africa. Those people belong to Asian stock so get over it.
And the difference is??
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^^And why are Fijians not from Africa?
Remind me again??
Lion!
Such a stupid fvcking question. Fijans aren't from Africa and never came from Africa you stupid afrocentrist. Why do you want them to be from Africa. Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: Fijans aren't from East Africa. You black people have no business wanting Fijans to be from East Africa. Those people belong to Asian stock so get over it.
And the difference is??
You aren't asking me the difference between Asian and African?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^^And why are Fijians not from Africa?
Remind me again??
Lion!
Such a stupid fvcking question. Fijans aren't from Africa and never came from Africa you stupid afrocentrist. Why do you want them to be from Africa. Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa.
Such an ignoramus! Having eyes yet blind!
Poor thing!
Lion! Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^^And why are Fijians not from Africa?
Remind me again??
Lion!
Such a stupid fvcking question. Fijans aren't from Africa and never came from Africa you stupid afrocentrist. Why do you want them to be from Africa. Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa.
Such an ignoramus! Having eyes yet blind!
Poor thing!
Lion!
Get over it. Fijans aren't African if you are black from African descent you have no business wanting them to be African. You are a fvcking sad soul.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Bettyboo Quote: "Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa."
I am assuming that you are just having a bad day, and tomorrow you will remember that just as Whites in the Americas, are still White Central Asians, even though they got to the Americas by way of Europe. So too are Blacks who no longer live in Africa, still Black and African. Hope you feel better soon.
BTW - Do you know what a Fijian looks like?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: ^^And why are Fijians not from Africa?
Remind me again??
Lion!
Such a stupid fvcking question. Fijans aren't from Africa and never came from Africa you stupid afrocentrist. Why do you want them to be from Africa. Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa.
Such an ignoramus! Having eyes yet blind!
Poor thing!
Lion!
Get over it. Fijans aren't African if you are black from African descent you have no business wanting them to be African. You are a fvcking sad soul.
Your boyfriend must be out of town.. or you ran out of your medications? Which one?
Lion! Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
bump^
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Bettyboo Quote: "Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa."
I am assuming that you are just having a bad day, and tomorrow you will remember that just as Whites in the Americas, are still White Central Asians, even though they got to the Americas by way of Europe. So too are Blacks who no longer live in Africa, still Black and African. Hope you feel better soon.
BTW - Do you know what a Fijian looks like?
Get over it. Fijans aren't African and they look nothing like Africans. You have no business wanting to be African. Their culture and language and genetic markers are different and distanced from Africa. I guess we can say everyone in the whole world is African going by your logic. Just get over it...fijans aren't African people and if you are African descent you have no business wanting them to be African.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Bettyboo Quote: "Everyone that is from Africa is still found in Africa. Fijans language, culture, heritage, genetic markers, have nothing to do with Africa."
I am assuming that you are just having a bad day, and tomorrow you will remember that just as Whites in the Americas, are still White Central Asians, even though they got to the Americas by way of Europe. So too are Blacks who no longer live in Africa, still Black and African. Hope you feel better soon.
BTW - Do you know what a Fijian looks like?
Get over it. Fijans aren't African and they look nothing like Africans. You have no business wanting to be African. Their culture and language and genetic markers are different and distanced from Africa. I guess we can say everyone in the whole world is African going by your logic. Just get over it...fijans aren't African people and if you are African descent you have no business wanting them to be African.
Huh huh? Somebody still has a wicked hangover from a bad family-christmas get together...
Bettypoop, didja kill some family member over the hols??? Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
There is a large bodied population of African-appearance on Fiji who claim African descent. They make up the indigenous Fijians and look like the people where Julius Nyrere was from. This group is related to African or Negroid element on nearby Tonga and probably also to early Hawaiians, like Kamehameha.
One wonders if these people were not responsible for bringing the pyramids and pyramid technology to the South Pacific and Central America.
Fijian women
Samoan woman
Fijians built pyramid-like homes also "built on a pyramid base".
Early painting or rendition of Tonga "step pyramid"
Pyramid like structures are found in the South Pacific as well as the winged sun-disk symbolism.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
From W. W. Gill, Myths of the South Pacific, 1876.
"Maui created six great cocoa-nut fibre ropes to make his royal nooses to catch the sun god Ra; the first noose he set at the opening where the sun climbs up from Avaiki the underworld ... the Sun God Ra was now allowed to proceed on his way; but Maui wisely declined to take off these ropes wishing to keep Ra in constant fear."
Question: How did the Sun God Ra, steppe pyramids and the winged sun disk get to the South Pacific?
Answer: The same way they got to Central America.
Fijian military man
Fijians celebrate
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Rowboat... or something else.
Posted by Chimu (Member # 15060) on :
Oh please.,the Megalithic burial mounds/pyramids or langi at Tonga are nothing like American pyramids or Egyptian pyramids.They are burial mounds with slabs around them. Fiji's god is Tama-nui-te-rā, Not just Ra. And Fiji was colonized 1500BC. Pyramids were already in Peru by that time. Much more advanced than anything in Tonga or Fiji.
DNA show that Fijians are Austronesian and Melanesian stock, not African.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chimu: Oh please.,the Megalithic burial mounds/pyramids or langi at Tonga are nothing like American pyramids or Egyptian pyramids.They are burial mounds with slabs around them. Fiji's god is Tama-nui-te-rā, Not just Ra. And Fiji was colonized 1500BC. Pyramids were already in Peru by that time. Much more advanced than anything in Tonga or Fiji.
DNA show that Fijians are Austronesian and Melanesian stock, not African.
Let me know which "Austronesians" they belong to when you get a chance. Better yet get some clarification about what the word "Melanesian" means while your at it.
"Maui created six great cocoa-nut fibre ropes to make his royal nooses to catch the sun god Ra; the first noose he set at the opening where the sun climbs up from Avaiki the underworld ... the Sun God Ra was now allowed to proceed on his way; but Maui wisely declined to take off these ropes wishing to keep Ra in constant fear." someone quoted a South Pacific myth!
This is one of many Gods similar to those found in east Africa. Guess some white Phoenicians brought some Bantu slaves over to the Islands and taught them to build pyramid-like structures and about the winged sun disk and to worship the Gods of modern Africans Tama, Amma, Taita and Ra. Get a grip and then get a life.
No one said anything about the Egyptian pyramids and Central American pyramids being the same as the ones at Tonga. I don't know enough about the ones at Tonga, Samoa or elsewhere in the Pacific to be talking about that.
Thanks for repeating the info that Fijians arrived which sounds like the time the pyramids were built among the Olmecs were built by the cornrow wearing Bantu-looking people who put their 5- 22 ton heads next to and on top of early pyramids there.
Next you'll be telling me the Egyptian pyramids and those of the Central Americans don't have any similarities. And that you don't know about the black crania and mummification found in Peru or that you think they had some UFO come down and decide to help people build pyramids at the same time in human history.
Maybe ancient Peruvians just had telepathic projection with the ancient Egyptians. Oh please.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
But of course since the pyramids of Peru only go back to around 200 B.C. anybody could have built them.
Not so for the pyramids of Mauritius and Tenerife thought to have been built by the same people.
Antoine Gigal reports on the discovery of massive walls, hydraulic systems and road systems on the island of Mauritius, which are connected with the pyramid complexes that have been rediscovered there in recent months. It highlights that this area of the island once hosted a civilisation worthy of that name.
Enormous stone walls, as well as an ancient road network, which was paved and elevated in certain sections; promontory platforms with impressive ramps in front of the ocean; a hydraulic system with terraces; all of these things are of the same era and design of the pyramids, which my team has identified on the island of Mauritius. And that is not all: there are also worked caverns, with their axes aligned north-south, and worked stones that have fallen to the bottom of the ocean. Seeing all these structures are in the same general area of the seven pyramids that have been discovered on the island, it is rather straightforward to conclude that everything was likely built by the same civilisation – and that this was done a long time ago."
"Seven pyramids have been identified on the African island of Mauritius. Remarkably, in construction, they are identical to the ones found on the island of Tenerife, an island on the opposite side of the continent. It underlines the likelihood that one civilisation sailed to various islands off the coast of Africa and constructed these structures....
There are many parallels between the pyramids of Mauritius and Tenerife. On both island, the pyramids are part of a complex: a series of pyramids grouped together in one location. On both islands, the pyramids are made from lava stone and the construction does not use any mortar or other connecting agent. Some of the structures on Mauritius have been partially dismantled, with the stones remployed nearby. In one coating of basalt rollers, there can be found limestone blocks underneath, no doubt of coral origin."
Hmm -now I wonder who built these pyramids and megalithic monuments. Maybe it was the Spaniards from Tenerife who built pyramids there before moving onto Mauritius.
Pyramid of Mauritius
Tonga
Olmec head of NATIVE AMERICAN HAIR?
Or maybe it was the people who still build megaliths, and built pyramids and great stone heads up until not long ago in Africa.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE] [qb] Next you'll be telling me the Egyptian pyramids and those of the Central Americans don't have any similarities. And that you don't know about the black crania and mummification found in Peru or that you think they had some UFO come down and decide to help people build pyramids at the same time in human history.
Maybe ancient Peruvians just had telepathic projection with the ancient Egyptians. Oh please.
Or perhaps the Egyptians got it all from the south Americans.
The oldest pyramids in the worlds are Huaca de los Idolos in Aspero, Peru dated to about 3500 B.C
The oldest artificial mummies are in Chile. The oldest Chinchorro mummy is dated 5050 BC thousands of years before the Egyptian mummies.
Arriaza, B. 1995 Beyond Death: the Chinchorro Mummies of Chile Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution, pp. 42, 57.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Or perhaps the Egyptians got it all from the south Americans.
The oldest pyramids in the worlds are Huaca de los Idolos in Aspero, Peru dated to about 3500 B.C
Notwithstanding the underlying sarcastic tone, there is no material evidence of that possibility. The Egyptian examples are maturations of the mastaba tradition, which means that there is clear progression in the conception of pyramids therein. The mastaba tradition in turn harkens back to mounds.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Or perhaps the Egyptians got it all from the south Americans.
The oldest pyramids in the worlds are Huaca de los Idolos in Aspero, Peru dated to about 3500 B.C
Notwithstanding the underlying sarcastic tone, there is no material evidence of that possibility. The Egyptian examples are maturations of the mastaba tradition, which means that there is clear progression in the conception of pyramids therein. The mastaba tradition in turn harkens back to mounds.
By the same token there is a progression of in situ development for the cultures of Mesoamerica and the Andes. Why deny these people the intelligence to develop pyramids, temples, mummification, writing, calendars, etc. independently without the master race of Egyptians or Mande speakers teaching them how to do it?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
By the same token there is a progression of in situ development for the cultures of Mesoamerica and the Andes.
I have nothing against that assessment. That being the case, can you shed some light -- with examples of this, as it relates to pyramids.
quote: Why deny these people the intelligence to develop pyramids, temples, mummification, writing, calendars, etc.
Talking to the wrong person here. I simply weighed in on what appears to be a sarcastic response [from you] to another poster.
As for mummification, yes, I'm quite aware that it had been practiced in a few places, but the ways in which these were performed were different. For instance, the ancient Egyptian mummification techniques of the dynastic era were more than likely different from those practiced in Chile.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
By the same token there is a progression of in situ development for the cultures of Mesoamerica and the Andes.
I have nothing against that assessment. That being the case, can you shed some light -- with examples of this, as it relates to pyramids.
Yes, the first thing to point out is that the pyramids were built in entirely different fashions. The pyramids in Aspero, Caral, etc. in South America were built using sacks full of rocks. The pyramids in Mesoamerica were built from fill covered on the outside with slabs of rock. Both of these methods differed from that used in Egypt. The same methods were used from the earliest beginning to the ones built by the Aztecs, i.e. local development and progression. Second, the pyramids were built for a different reason. In Mesoamerica they were built as the base of temples, some had burials in them but that was not the primary purpose as it was in Egypt. In some cases like the Temple of Quetzalcoatl in Teotihuacan the burials were sacrificed captives not royalty. Thirdly, in the case of the Olmecs, the "pyramid" was built 1200-1000 BC, but, at this time, Egyptians were not building any pyramids-- burial were in the Valley of the Kings. The last step pyramid-- the closest analog to the Mesoamerican style had been bullt in 2680 BC and the last regular large pyramid was Khenjefer's, ca. 1777 BC. Why would have Mesoamericans be taught to build pyramids by Egyptians who had not built one for centuries or millennia?
quote: Why deny these people the intelligence to develop pyramids, temples, mummification, writing, calendars, etc.
Talking to the wrong person here. I simply weighed in on what appears to be a sarcastic response [from you] to another poster.[/QUOTE]
Just frustration at the usual glib Afrocentric claim, but also pointing out that the case for a south American origin of Egyptian culture is as valid as the reverse claim.
quote:As for mummification, yes, I'm quite aware that it had been practiced in a few places, but the ways in which these were performed were different. For instance, the ancient Egyptian mummification techniques of the dynastic era were more than likely different from those practiced in Chile.
Exactly, they were very different and much older- and therefore they did not come from or go to Egypt. Independent invention not diffusion in either direction.
My point is that the very logical questions you raised are never raised in this discussion group when Clyde or van Sertima supporters make equally dubious claims about Egyptian or Mande diffusionism to the New World, When these questions are raised, one is accused of racism or Eurocentrism.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
No de montellano, I think you are called racist for using the "true negro" criteria (via Brace 1993 etc) when assessing the ethnic or "racial" makeup of the AE. That and alot of other things I wont get into right now makes you a racist.
Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: No de montellano, I think you are called racist for using the "true negro" criteria (via Brace 1993 etc) when assessing the ethnic or "racial" makeup of the AE. That and alot of other things I wont get into right now makes you a racist.
You are making this up. Exactly where have I used the "Brace criteria of true Negro" in talking about the racial make up of AE. You mean, by definition, that I disagree with Afrocentrist ideas, that makes me a racist?
More than fifty years ago, I worked on boycotts to integrate restaurants and public acommodations in Austin, where I was a student at the time. For many years, I worked to increase the access, enrollment , and participation of African-Americans and other minorities in science at the university level at my own universities and at the national level through the AAAS. What have you done , other than call people names on the internet.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
WTF?! Where did I say you used "Brace criteria of true Negro"? Read carefully old man, you were using that study to argue against AE being black with certain phenotypes i.e. you were using true negro criteria. And dont give me any sh!t about your alleged civil rights resume, that makes you look even more like a condescending racist prick.
You know the type, "some of my best friends are jews" or in this case negros. lol
PS and you couldn't help yourself with the "Afrocentric" brush could you? Who the f!ck said anything about Afrocentrism old man?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Yes, the first thing to point out is that the pyramids were built in entirely different fashions. The pyramids in Aspero, Caral, etc. in South America were built using sacks full of rocks. The pyramids in Mesoamerica were built from fill covered on the outside with slabs of rock. Both of these methods differed from that used in Egypt.
These are "differences" in building techniques between the said cultures, that you are describing. My inquiry was actually along the lines of "what sort of progression of development or conceptualization" do we see about MesoAmerican pyramids, as in the brief example I mentioned about the Egyptian examples.
quote: My point is that the very logical questions you raised are never raised in this discussion group when Clyde or van Sertima supporters make equally dubious claims about Egyptian or Mande diffusionism to the New World, When these questions are raised, one is accused of racism or Eurocentrism.
What does Van Sertima say about said diffusion. Can you please share it, along with the title of the work at hand.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The veterans and 2nd generation members of this forum are not monolithic in viewpoint. There are a variety of viewpoints on these issues. You're too new to know but you can GOOGLE or YAHOO! search this site to see what's gone on before. Some of us are just tired of slinging the same old hash over and over again and so just remain silent in the face of tireless enthusiasts.
But you shouldn't be as likewise careless and lump Winters and Van Sertima together when they are not even nearly coming from the same place.
More later.
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Why would have Mesoamericans be taught to build pyramids by Egyptians who had not built one for centuries or millennia?
...
Why deny these people the intelligence to develop pyramids, temples, mummification, writing, calendars, etc.
...
My point is that the very logical questions you raised are never raised in this discussion group when Clyde or van Sertima supporters make equally dubious claims about Egyptian or Mande diffusionism to the New World, When these questions are raised, one is accused of racism or Eurocentrism.
Let's be careful not to put words into Van Sertima's mouth. He never claimed Africans to be the father of civilization in the Americas.
quote: "I think it necessary to make it clear -- since partisan and ethnocentric scholarship is the order of the day -- that the emergence of the Negroid face, which the archeaological and cultural data overwhelmingly confirm, in no way presupposes the lack of a native originality the absence of other influences or the automatic eclipse of other faces"
-- Journal of African Civilizations, V8#2, 1986 p. 16
quote: "Not all of these heads are African. I have said that over and over again. I have never claimed that Africans carved these heads or that they were the only models for them. What I have claimed, . . . is
that the skull and skeletal evidence examined in certain Olmec settlements show a distinct African physical prescence AMONG THEM
that this alien prescence is displayed not only in bones but in the features of SOME of the Olmec stones . . .
-- Early America Revisited, 1998, p. 52
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
As a matter of observation, painting the diversity of viewpoints here as one, is usually the M.O. of those who themselves wish to justify their own questionable motives. For instance, is dealing with the dishonesty of an "Afrocentric" with a reverse but equally dishonest perception any more justifiable than the actions of the former?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I see! Montellano's been around at least since 2007. He's not so new as I thought. In fact he's already read what I posted above when I first reposted it in the Ivan Van Sertima thread in which he also participated sparring with Winters.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
DE Montellano knews Van Sertima wasn't the "Afrocentric" ethnocentric caricature he painted in his attacks. He knows his work. The guy is just a dishonest and hypocritical, which is why he is denying now he cited Brace, Sforza et al. to argue Sub Saharan Africans as some sort of separate group from Egyptians and Nubians.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE] [qb] Next you'll be telling me the Egyptian pyramids and those of the Central Americans don't have any similarities. And that you don't know about the black crania and mummification found in Peru or that you think they had some UFO come down and decide to help people build pyramids at the same time in human history.
Maybe ancient Peruvians just had telepathic projection with the ancient Egyptians. Oh please.
Or perhaps the Egyptians got it all from the south Americans.
The oldest pyramids in the worlds are Huaca de los Idolos in Aspero, Peru dated to about 3500 B.C
The oldest artificial mummies are in Chile. The oldest Chinchorro mummy is dated 5050 BC thousands of years before the Egyptian mummies.
Arriaza, B. 1995 Beyond Death: the Chinchorro Mummies of Chile Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution, pp. 42, 57.
If that were the case we would find Native American skeletons in Egypt rather than the other way around Negroid skeletons and mummies in early Peru and Central America.
And again, unless there was some sort of telepathy going on there are not going to be people at nearly the same time in the history of homo sapiens sapiens all of a sudden deciding to build pyramids and mummify their people. You don't need a Ph.D. to come that conclusion - just common sense.
Furthermore, some scientists outside of Egyptology believe that the Sphinx is as much as 10000 years old or more and for good reason.
Take it from someone of African and indigenous American descent whose great grand parents were put on reservations here in the U.S. - Native Americans and ancient African people in the America's don't look alike! That is my observation besides being forensic fact.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Furthermore, some scientists outside of Egyptology believe that the Sphinx is as much as 10000 years old or more and for good reason.
^ yes, there is an attempt to down play the "starting" date for ancient Egypt and we see this especially in relation to Mesopotamia. This is something to bear in mind when assessing the "beginnings" of Egyptian culture.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
I personally would like to know whats going on with those scientific studies or scientists that were saying the great pyramids were many thousands of years older than suspected. Would also like to see what Egyptologists are saying about them - if anything.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
Posted by viti dua (Member # 19016) on :
Bula!
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: by Peta Young
Fiji, an island archipelago in the Pacific Ocean in the southern tropics is a holiday paradise It has the honor of being the first place on Earth to welcome the new day. It lies longitudinally on the 180th meridian, the International Date Line, which makes a special bend eastwards around the island group so that Fijians will all keep the same time. Fiji is twelve hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time. 3,500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the south-west, and from the north-east, Polynesians and Melanesians paddled their canoes to Fiji to settle in this new land. The natives gradually scattered across the country forming village groups throughout the islands. Until 150 years ago, warring and cannibalism among these early settlers was quite common. But when the first missionaries arrived in 1840 and introduced Christianity, the Fijians were transformed into the gentle, peace-loving devout Christians that we know today.
Of the 330 Fijian islands, only 106 are inhabited. Most of the population of just under one million live on the largest island, Vita Levu. Fiji islanders and Fiji-Indians are the main inhabitants while other islanders, Chinese and Europeans are in the minority. Fiji is a developing country with abundant forest, mineral and fish resources and a thriving sugar industry. Tourism is growing with approximately 350,000 visitors annually. Many come especially to dive among the beautiful coral reefs that surround each island.
The recent military coup has adversely affected Fiji's business economy and the European Union has suspended all aid until the next elections. This has resulted in a drastic down-turn in the building industry because of a lack of available funds. The economy of Fiji is severely depressed with 25% of the people living below the poverty line.
The Fiji-Indians are the businessmen and the towns and city streets are lined with all manner of shops and businesses almost all owned by the Indians. Each town has at least one market place where tourists can have fun bartering for items on sale. The wide variety of stalls offer local fruit and vegetables, wonderful exotic spices like turmeric, ginger, cardamom and chillies, sulis, sarongs, colorful shirts, hand made arts and crafts, beads, pearls, shells, plus many more delights it is almost impossible to visit the market place and come away empty handed.
While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a family-oriented community who live mainly in villages. They live a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with the villagers helping each other. They grow their own fruit and vegetables and keep chickens, goats and cows for eggs, milk and meat. They are practically self-sufficient for their day-to-day sustenance This style of community living is all-encompassing, with each family member from the oldest to the youngest being treated as a person of worth. Many Fijians are employed in the luxury tourist resorts, sugar mills, and other laboring jobs where they work for just $1 - $2 an hour.
A visit to Fiji is a step back in time there are no high-rise buildings, crowds, commercialism, fast cars (there is an 80kph speed limit), in fact, it's as if you have entered a time warp from the 1970s. The pace is slower Fiji time'. That is how things are done here no hurry, so just settle back and enjoy your Fijian holiday. Bula!
.
A factual guide to Fiji - Australia & South Pacific - Helium - by ... 3500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the ... While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a ... www.helium.com/ tm/856986/ island-archipelago- pacific-ocean - 33k - Cached - Similar pages Chronological History of Tanganyika (Tanzania) Interestingly, the flowering tree seen in the images below is common to both Tanganyika and Fiji. In Fiji it is called the Fijian Tulip and is found all ... www.fijibure. com/tang. htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages More results from www.fijibure. com Friends of the Serengeti The Fijian's believe that their forefathers recently (about 600 years ago) came from Tanganyika the accepted cradle of man! www.tokencoins. com/gea05. htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods | Travel Writing and Fiji ... Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). ... www.travelintellige nce.com/. ../Fiji/Viti- Levu/ Vatuka/Vatukacevace va-Encounters- with-the- Gods.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Raceandhistory. com - AFRICAN PRESENCE IN FIJI Fijian Tradition "We, the Black people in Fiji, came here a long time ago to our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East Africa. ... www.raceandhistory. com/historicalvi ews/africanfiji. htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
The Straight Path: A Story of Healing and Transformation in Fiji ... PART ONE : HEALING IN FIJIAN CULTURE 8 ..... religious customs, oral history and iconography. ..our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East...exactly ... www.questia. com/.../book/ the-straight- path-a-story- of-healing- and-transformati on-in-fiji- by-richard- katz.jsp - Similar pages
As far as I know more than half of all Fijians are Melanesians unless we can conclusively establish that some Africans were brought over from Tanganyika, I would classify this as bogus.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:If that were the case we would find Native American skeletons in Egypt rather than the other way around Negroid skeletons and mummies in early Peru and Central America.
Negroid mummies in Peru and Central America? Really? Can you prove that?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:If that were the case we would find Native American skeletons in Egypt rather than the other way around Negroid skeletons and mummies in early Peru and Central America.
Negroid mummies in Peru and Central America? Really? Can you prove that?
melchior7 - If your level of knowledge is really that low, perhaps you should consider just lurking, and leave posting to others.
Posted by viti dua (Member # 19016) on :
My grandfather once told me that stories were passed down from one generation to another and that was one of the method they used to keep records of things that happened. Another method they used to keep their stories passed on is through chanting and dancing - 'meke' in Fijian.
This is one example of one of their many stories that talks about them drifting from Lake Taganyika across the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean and reaching the island that they named, "Viti" or Fiji today.
My ancestors, let me talk about about them. When the came from South Africa. Oh! Verata(spelling is probably wrong b'coz it's Fijian pronouncitation) their real village near the big Lake Tanganyika.
Lutunasobasoba led them as they travelled from South Africa. With Nai his wife, a woman from East Egypt. Lutunasobasoba had five children, Today, they are the chiefly descendants of Fiji. He had only one daughter, Buisavulu(her name) she lives in Bureta.
Rokomautu(one of his son) lives in Verata, Melasiga(second son) lives in Burebasaga. Tuinayavu(third son) lives in the Batiki area. Daunisai lives in Kabara.
The reason why they came out off Tangayika A serious illness(some form of sickness) had struck them. They travel across the Atlantic. They looked for places/islands/land to stay across the Pacific Ocean.
A storm hit them They were terrified/fearful inside their canoe/boat. The Kaunitoni and the Duibana and the Kaunitera is the name of their canoe.
Lutunasobasoba wept and cried, O! my poor people/future generation is gonna suffer My stone chest has dropped/fallen/spilled(off the boat) With it's book/writings.
(that's was the end of the chant/song/meke)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
We know a megalithic culture expanded from Africa into the Indian/Pacific Ocean areas after 2000 BC. Secondly, African place names are found in the Pacific and correspondences between lexical items.
Common Terms:
English Manding Melanesian Polynesian
arrow bye,bya fana,pane fana,pana
Father baba babi papa
Man tye ta taga-ta
head ku tequ-qa tuku-noa
pot daga taga taga
vase bara pora,bora bora-bora
fish yege ige, ika ika
ox, cattle konga,gunga kede kuda
The ancient Austronesians cultivated rice, millet, yams and sugarcane. (Bellwood 1990, p.92)
It would appear that the Polynesians learned agriculture from the Manding as illustrated below:
Polynesian English Manding
*talun fallow, land daa
*tanem to plant, sow daa
*suluq torch, jet of flame suu
*kuDen cooking pot,bowl ku
This evidence provides linguistic and anthropological support for the Fiji tradition. It is wrong that you guys deny a people history just because your European masters to do not present evidence in support of a native tradition.
.
Posted by Waqa (Member # 19879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Move it up.
I have no qualm about Fijiand being African dessent. There is a problem I am trying to quel and that is that my father now 68 experienced his deseased brother chopped up the stern of the Kaunitoni just because he was tired of going back into the woord to fetch firewood. THis is in the Eastern Island of Moala.
Posted by Waqa (Member # 19879) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: by Peta Young
Fiji, an island archipelago in the Pacific Ocean in the southern tropics is a holiday paradise It has the honor of being the first place on Earth to welcome the new day. It lies longitudinally on the 180th meridian, the International Date Line, which makes a special bend eastwards around the island group so that Fijians will all keep the same time. Fiji is twelve hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time. 3,500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the south-west, and from the north-east, Polynesians and Melanesians paddled their canoes to Fiji to settle in this new land. The natives gradually scattered across the country forming village groups throughout the islands. Until 150 years ago, warring and cannibalism among these early settlers was quite common. But when the first missionaries arrived in 1840 and introduced Christianity, the Fijians were transformed into the gentle, peace-loving devout Christians that we know today.
Of the 330 Fijian islands, only 106 are inhabited. Most of the population of just under one million live on the largest island, Vita Levu. Fiji islanders and Fiji-Indians are the main inhabitants while other islanders, Chinese and Europeans are in the minority. Fiji is a developing country with abundant forest, mineral and fish resources and a thriving sugar industry. Tourism is growing with approximately 350,000 visitors annually. Many come especially to dive among the beautiful coral reefs that surround each island.
The recent military coup has adversely affected Fiji's business economy and the European Union has suspended all aid until the next elections. This has resulted in a drastic down-turn in the building industry because of a lack of available funds. The economy of Fiji is severely depressed with 25% of the people living below the poverty line.
The Fiji-Indians are the businessmen and the towns and city streets are lined with all manner of shops and businesses almost all owned by the Indians. Each town has at least one market place where tourists can have fun bartering for items on sale. The wide variety of stalls offer local fruit and vegetables, wonderful exotic spices like turmeric, ginger, cardamom and chillies, sulis, sarongs, colorful shirts, hand made arts and crafts, beads, pearls, shells, plus many more delights it is almost impossible to visit the market place and come away empty handed.
While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a family-oriented community who live mainly in villages. They live a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with the villagers helping each other. They grow their own fruit and vegetables and keep chickens, goats and cows for eggs, milk and meat. They are practically self-sufficient for their day-to-day sustenance This style of community living is all-encompassing, with each family member from the oldest to the youngest being treated as a person of worth. Many Fijians are employed in the luxury tourist resorts, sugar mills, and other laboring jobs where they work for just $1 - $2 an hour.
A visit to Fiji is a step back in time there are no high-rise buildings, crowds, commercialism, fast cars (there is an 80kph speed limit), in fact, it's as if you have entered a time warp from the 1970s. The pace is slower Fiji time'. That is how things are done here no hurry, so just settle back and enjoy your Fijian holiday. Bula!
.
A factual guide to Fiji - Australia & South Pacific - Helium - by ... 3500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the ... While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a ... www.helium.com/ tm/856986/ island-archipelago- pacific-ocean - 33k - Cached - Similar pages Chronological History of Tanganyika (Tanzania) Interestingly, the flowering tree seen in the images below is common to both Tanganyika and Fiji. In Fiji it is called the Fijian Tulip and is found all ... www.fijibure. com/tang. htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages More results from www.fijibure. com Friends of the Serengeti The Fijian's believe that their forefathers recently (about 600 years ago) came from Tanganyika the accepted cradle of man! www.tokencoins. com/gea05. htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods | Travel Writing and Fiji ... Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). ... www.travelintellige nce.com/. ../Fiji/Viti- Levu/ Vatuka/Vatukacevace va-Encounters- with-the- Gods.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Raceandhistory. com - AFRICAN PRESENCE IN FIJI Fijian Tradition "We, the Black people in Fiji, came here a long time ago to our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East Africa. ... www.raceandhistory. com/historicalvi ews/africanfiji. htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
The Straight Path: A Story of Healing and Transformation in Fiji ... PART ONE : HEALING IN FIJIAN CULTURE 8 ..... religious customs, oral history and iconography. ..our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East...exactly ... www.questia. com/.../book/ the-straight- path-a-story- of-healing- and-transformati on-in-fiji- by-richard- katz.jsp - Similar pages
As far as I know more than half of all Fijians are Melanesians unless we can conclusively establish that some Africans were brought over from Tanganyika, I would classify this as bogus.
I am a FIjian, and proud to be one, I travel alot, and I see Fijian features in faces of Africans I see. Typical structures of the chick bones, etc. THe Melanesian is only a word that was developed during an era when anthropologist are trying to segrgegate and identify clusters of human groupd spread on this globe. Egypt, Peru, Africa, Fiji. One thing for sure is that these humans are so resourceful just as we are today. For any consulation, the more we try to identify ourselves the more we divide ourselves, the we loose the credibility humans have collectively progressed through achievements they have attained which none now have matched except for going to the moon. As far as I am concerned, I am proud to call any african brother just for the color of our skin, and any other the same for the human achievements so far, less the negative impacts.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
We know a megalithic culture expanded from Africa into the Indian/Pacific Ocean areas after 2000 BC. Secondly, African place names are found in the Pacific and correspondences between lexical items.
Pyramid of Mauritius
Tonga
Common Terms:
English Manding Melanesian Polynesian
arrow bye,bya fana,pane fana,pana
Father baba babi papa
Man tye ta taga-ta
head ku tequ-qa tuku-noa
pot daga taga taga
vase bara pora,bora bora-bora
fish yege ige, ika ika
ox, cattle konga,gunga kede kuda
The ancient Austronesians cultivated rice, millet, yams and sugarcane. (Bellwood 1990, p.92)
It would appear that the Polynesians learned agriculture from the Manding as illustrated below:
Polynesian English Manding
*talun fallow, land daa
*tanem to plant, sow daa
*suluq torch, jet of flame suu
*kuDen cooking pot,bowl ku
This evidence provides linguistic and anthropological support for the Fiji tradition. It is wrong that you guys deny a people history just because your European masters to do not present evidence in support of a native tradition.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Get a grip and then get a life.
