Originally posted by akoben:
Bernard, do you still think Nubians and Egyptians don't have phenotype of the "slave ancestors of African-Americans"?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:This was falsified by Dr. Wiener almost 100 years ago. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America discussed the fact that the West African zodiacs are of 13 months like that of the Amerindians ( Vol.3, p.279). This information is based on the work of F.Bork, Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen, in Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft, Vol.21, p.266.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
I'll make it easier for you to falsify my hypothesis. I'll eliminate the Initial Series Long Count component.
A Calendar round in which each day has two names- one from a combination of numbers 1 to 13 and 20 day names and two from a 365-day calendar of 18 20-day months and 1 5-day month in which a day with the same two names will not repeat for 52 years can only be found in Mesoamerica and nowhere else in the world.
All you have to to falsify this hypothesis is to show evidence for the existence of this in Africa, or somewhere else in the world.
quote:The only evidence presented for African calabashes is a citation to F. Bork, 1916-17. "Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen," in Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft vol. XXI pp. 266-ff BUT Wiener does not tell us what Bork found, does not have a picture of what these calabashes look like, etc. Thus, NO evidence is presented. I am in the process of getting Bork's paper so that we can all see what this evidence is supposed to be, but without it Wiener has not "proved" a thing.
pp. 270-71 For astrological purposes there was in use a division of the zodiac in thirteen parts, such as has been found ion three calabashes in western Africa, and it is a curious fact that a similar division into thirteen is recorded only among the Kirghizes [in Afghanistan] and in America. The division of the year into thirteen parts would demand a twenty-eight day month, but, in reality, the order is reversed, for we still have among the Berbers a division of the year into twenty-eight parts, of thirteen days each, (. . .), which is based on the astronomical or astrological calculations of the Arabs, whose twenty-eight lunar mansions of thirteen days each were, in the IX. Century or later, adopted from the Hindus, (Nallino..), who had by that time arranged the twenty-eight nakshatras, or constellations, into equally spaced divisions of the Zodiac, which naturally led to the thirteen days unit of time.
quote:Again, pure assertion with no evidence. I cannot believe that readers of ES can think that this "proves" that the Mande brought the 260-day calendar, much less the 52-year Calendar Round, to the Olmecs, 500 B.C.
p. 278 In Arabic. . quimar refers to any game of chance. The Spanish-Arabic dictionary in the beginning of the XVI. Century translates Spanish “dados” and “naypes” by quimar, which shows that even at that late date “dice” and “cards” were not yet fully distinguished. But “cards” were called naypes in Spanish from Arabic () naib “lieutenant,” and the first fundamental row of the geomantic gadwal is called alanaua, (ref. 3) unquestionably from naib “lieutenant, regent,” for we find this word as laibe “story” in Wolof, which indicates that in the Western Sudan the game was closely related to the gadwal. Cards seem not to have been known before the end of the XIV. Century, and it is significant that, although the original deck of cards had 4X18 and more cards, it soon developed into a deck of 4X13 cards, in which the 13 is identical with the calabash zodiacs of western Africa. It, therefore, follows from this that in western Africa there was, for reasons which we do not at present know, in vogue the 4X13 astrological cycle, which forms the same cycle in Mexico and Central America
quote:
You can still keep time without the 365 day Mayan calendar as proven by contemporary Americans. Coe and Stone, Reading the Maya Glyphs wrote : "The first part of a Calendar Round is the 260-day Count, often called in the literature by the ersatz Maya name "tsolk'in". This is the eternally repeating cycle , and concist of the numbers 1 through 13, permuting against a minicycle of 20 named days. Since 13 and 20 have no common denominator, a particular day name will not recur with a particular coefficient until 260 days have passed. No one knows exactly when this extremely sacred calendar was invented, but it was certainly already ancient by the time the Classic period began. There are still highland Maya calendar priests who can calculate the day in the 260-day Count, and [b]it is apparent that this basic way of time-reckoning has never slipped a day since its inception" (pp.41-42).
This sacred calendar has 13 months of 20 days (13x20=260). John Montgomery, How to Read Maya Hieroglyphs, wrote "The Tzolk'in or 260 day Sacred Almanac, was widely used in ancient times for divinatory purposes. Guatemalan Maya and other cultures in Mexico still use it as a means of "day keeping". " (p.74).
.
quote:It took months for me to track down the paper and get a copy. I had to get a friend of mine who teaches at Harvard to send a graduate student to the library and Xerox a copy.
Sometimes I think that you must live in an alternate universe where repeating an error over and over again will somehow magically transmute it into being true. I won't waste any time reposting the reams of contrary evidence including an e-mail from Mike Coe explicitly telling you that you have misquoted and misunderstood him. You get by with this because your acolytes and others will not bother to check out your claims. If readers of ES re not too lazy or uninterested complete rebuttals are available here
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000348
quote:I have already answered your question. Both systems are based on 20 and 60. The site you list has nothing to do with the Mande terms for 20 and 60 that are discussed below.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The easy reply is that you evaded my questions completely. You provided a mishmosh of arguments about the numbers 20 and 60 but from the Dogon and in relation to their mythology concerning Sirius and a 60 year ceremony. This has nothing to do with the Mesoamerican calendar or a Mande calendar . Scattered babbling will not explain what you have to explain.
To remind you of the essential claim you make: about 100 BC the Mande were the source for the Initial Series Long Count calendar used in Mesoamerica. This means, as I asked you,
That ALL THESE FEATURES HAVE TO BE EXPLAINED BECAUSE THEY ARE ESSENTIAL COMPONENTS
1. an interlocking 260-day calendar of 13 numbers and 20 day names AND a 365-day calendar composed of 18 20-months and 1 5-day month.
2. A starting date for this interlocking calendar of August 11, 3114 B.C.
3. A vertical place notation of a modified base-20 number system
4. A true zero
Your post does not even come close to answering any of these points.
BTW you are wrong about the way the number 60 is said in Bambara. The system is decimal and 60 is 6X10 ta[ng] wooro
see
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/number/mandinka.html
I am waiting for an answer since you claim all the Olmec writing is Mande
quote:This makes it clear that the Maya had a base 20 notation system. . The Mayan values like the Mande increased by powers of twenty (Sharer, p.558).
Not only did the Indians have a count for the year and months, as has been said and previously set out, but they had a certain method of counting time and their affairs by their ages, which they counted by twenty year periods, counting thirteen twenties, with one of the twenty signs of their months, which they call Ahau/Ajaw
Sharer, p.572
quote:LOL Clyde, sometimes I wonder how you can post with a straight face
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Quetzalcoalt neither Wiener nor I said the calabashes date back to the preColumbian era. We only stated that West Africans had a 13 month calendar.
Please post the description of Calabash 3. Thanks.
.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:look at and read the argument in http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=73
Originally posted by akoben:
Bernard, do you still think Nubians and Egyptians don't have phenotype of the "slave ancestors of African-Americans"?
quote:This what I wrote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:LOL Clyde, sometimes I wonder how you can post with a straight face
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Quetzalcoalt neither Wiener nor I said the calabashes date back to the preColumbian era. We only stated that West Africans had a 13 month calendar.
Please post the description of Calabash 3. Thanks.
.
You and your governor suffer from the same malady-- "I can say anything because no one is listening to my phone calls"
What the hell have we been debating for months? If not that Wiener and you are claiming that the Mande showed the Olmecs and Mayas how to run a calendar? And that finally, when cornered, you claimed that PROOF of this was to be found in the 3 calabashes.
see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000393 and others.
You, of course, had never bothered to look up the cited paper or the actual paper with the images of these calabashes.
The description of calabash 3 is on p. 267 as posted above and in Bork's fuller 1914 paper, which you can look up-- after all I can't do all your work for you.
Participants in ES know that, when refuted, Clyde fills the airwaves with irrelevant spam, so we can ignore the following posts which merely repost from the thread I gave the URL above.
The bottom line, is that these- unknown provenance 19th century calabashes can no longer be used to claim that the Mande taught the 13 division zodiac to the Olmecs 2000 years previously, or even as Wiener (and Van Sertima) claim to the Mesoamericans in the 14th century AD.
quote:I did not provide a date for the calendars. I just said they were 13 month calendars.
This was falsified by Dr. Wiener almost 100 years ago. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America discussed the fact that the West African zodiacs are of 13 months like that of the Amerindians ( Vol.3, p.279). This information is based on the work of F.Bork, Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen, in Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft, Vol.21, p.266.
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:This what I wrote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:LOL Clyde, sometimes I wonder how you can post with a straight face
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Quetzalcoalt neither Wiener nor I said the calabashes date back to the preColumbian era. We only stated that West Africans had a 13 month calendar.
Please post the description of Calabash 3. Thanks.
.
You and your governor suffer from the same malady-- "I can say anything because no one is listening to my phone calls"
What the hell have we been debating for months? If not that Wiener and you are claiming that the Mande showed the Olmecs and Mayas how to run a calendar? And that finally, when cornered, you claimed that PROOF of this was to be found in the 3 calabashes.
see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000393 and others.
You, of course, had never bothered to look up the cited paper or the actual paper with the images of these calabashes.
The description of calabash 3 is on p. 267 as posted above and in Bork's fuller 1914 paper, which you can look up-- after all I can't do all your work for you.
Participants in ES know that, when refuted, Clyde fills the airwaves with irrelevant spam, so we can ignore the following posts which merely repost from the thread I gave the URL above.
The bottom line, is that these- unknown provenance 19th century calabashes can no longer be used to claim that the Mande taught the 13 division zodiac to the Olmecs 2000 years previously, or even as Wiener (and Van Sertima) claim to the Mesoamericans in the 14th century AD.
quote:I did not provide a date for the calendars. I just said they were 13 month calendars.
This was falsified by Dr. Wiener almost 100 years ago. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America discussed the fact that the West African zodiacs are of 13 months like that of the Amerindians ( Vol.3, p.279). This information is based on the work of F.Bork, Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen, in Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft, Vol.21, p.266.
The fact that many Mayan words relating to calendrics and numerals correspond to Mande terms was the reason I said the Mande speaking Olmecs introduced the calendar to the Mayan people.
The 13 month calendars can be used to say the Mande/Olmecs introduced this calendar to the Amerinds because these calendars are of 13 months and include most features associated with the Mande including the mat on the back of the lizard forming the shape of the kanaga sign as illustrated in calabash 3.
quote:
Your publication of these calabashes in no way disputes the fact Africans and Mayan people had 13 month calendars.
quote:In relation to the Mayan zodiac Sharer wrote:” The ancient Maya may have had a zodiac, composed of thirteen houses” (months) or a 13 uinal (month) 20 k’in (day ) . Are you disagreeing with Sharer?
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:This what I wrote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:LOL Clyde, sometimes I wonder how you can post with a straight face
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Quetzalcoalt neither Wiener nor I said the calabashes date back to the preColumbian era. We only stated that West Africans had a 13 month calendar.
Please post the description of Calabash 3. Thanks.
.
You and your governor suffer from the same malady-- "I can say anything because no one is listening to my phone calls"
What the hell have we been debating for months? If not that Wiener and you are claiming that the Mande showed the Olmecs and Mayas how to run a calendar? And that finally, when cornered, you claimed that PROOF of this was to be found in the 3 calabashes.
see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000393 and others.
You, of course, had never bothered to look up the cited paper or the actual paper with the images of these calabashes.
The description of calabash 3 is on p. 267 as posted above and in Bork's fuller 1914 paper, which you can look up-- after all I can't do all your work for you.
Participants in ES know that, when refuted, Clyde fills the airwaves with irrelevant spam, so we can ignore the following posts which merely repost from the thread I gave the URL above.
The bottom line, is that these- unknown provenance 19th century calabashes can no longer be used to claim that the Mande taught the 13 division zodiac to the Olmecs 2000 years previously, or even as Wiener (and Van Sertima) claim to the Mesoamericans in the 14th century AD.
quote:I did not provide a date for the calendars. I just said they were 13 month calendars.
This was falsified by Dr. Wiener almost 100 years ago. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America discussed the fact that the West African zodiacs are of 13 months like that of the Amerindians ( Vol.3, p.279). This information is based on the work of F.Bork, Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen, in Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft, Vol.21, p.266.
The fact that many Mayan words relating to calendrics and numerals correspond to Mande terms was the reason I said the Mande speaking Olmecs introduced the calendar to the Mayan people.
The 13 month calendars can be used to say the Mande/Olmecs introduced this calendar to the Amerinds because these calendars are of 13 months and include most features associated with the Mande including the mat on the back of the lizard forming the shape of the kanaga sign as illustrated in calabash 3.quote:
Your publication of these calabashes in no way disputes the fact Africans and Mayan people had 13 month calendars.
LOL This is irrelevant. What I published, however, proves that these unknown provenance 19th century calabashes cannot be used as evidence that the Mesoamericans did not independently develop their calendar and number system and that they got it from the Mande.
BTW ad nauseam-- the Mesoamerican ritual calendar has 20 months of 13 days NOT 13 months.
quote:Why do you think I didn't read your racist insults in "Robbing Native American Cultures"? Explain how I misinterpreted you. I understand you want to focus on plants. However I'm not an expert so I wont know if your lying, again. I do however know a thing or two about Nile Valley. So I want to know if you still hold your racist views expressed in "Robbing Native American Cultures", especially under "The Colossal Olmec Heads"? If I have misrepresented what you have said please do explain.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:look at and read the argument in http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=73
Originally posted by akoben:
Bernard, do you still think Nubians and Egyptians don't have phenotype of the "slave ancestors of African-Americans"?
and for further discussion of Van Sertima's plant diffusion arguments see http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=88
do some reading instead of parroting
quote:Uhh Bernard, I was reading your work, and umm... I see you mentioned gourds didn't appear in Egypt until 3300-3500 BCE. Well this would be wrong.
The bottle gourd (Lagenaria siceraria), although not a food plant, was domesticated early because of its usefulness as a container. The wild gourd is endemic to tropical Africa and originated there (Whitaker 1971, Whitaker and Bemis 1976). However, cultivated bottle gourds earlier than 7000 B.C. were recovered in the Ocampo caves in Mexico (Whitaker, Cutler, and MacNeish 1957, Whitaker and Bemis 1976), while the oldest cultivated forms in South America date to about 3000 B.C. (Whitaker 1971). Lanning (1963) reported a much earlier site, but the gourds there were probably gathered rather than cultivated. Remains of L. siceraria were found in Egyptian tombs dated about 3300-3500 B.C. (Whitaker and Bemis 1976). Thus gourds were cultivated in the New World much earlier than in Egypt.
quote:
Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, African Studies Chair
University of California at Los Angeles
One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty years was the discovery that the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies involved in this momentous development included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). The earliest domestic cattle came to Egypt apparently from these southern neighbors, probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East.
One major technological advance, pottery-making, was also initiated as early as 9000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egypt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East.
Very late in the same span of time, the cultivating of crops began in Egypt. Since most of Egypt belonged then to the Mediterranean climatic zone, many of the new food plants came from areas of similar climate in the Middle East. Two domestic animals of Middle Eastern origin, the sheep and the goat, also entered northeastern Africa from the north during this era.
But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125). One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egyptian bdt, or "bed of gourds" (Late Egyptian bdt, "gourd; cucumber"), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, "edible gourd." Other early Egyptian crops of Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans.
quote:You act as if we had not had this conversation before. As I showed in this thread
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
]In relation to the Mayan zodiac Sharer wrote:” The ancient Maya may have had a zodiac, composed of thirteen houses” (months) or a 13 uinal (month) 20 k’in (day ) . Are you disagreeing with Sharer?
Quetzalcoatl..Oh you Great Deciever You.
.
.
quote:and on June 14
As often happens, we can’t tell where Sharer ends and Winters begins. Where are the ending quotation marks? What page is this supposed to be in? I went through every index entry in Sharer for calendar, and— SURPRISE Sharer did not say “The ancient Maya may have had a zodiac, composed of thirteen house (months”).
I did not expect him to say any such thing, and the word “zodiac” does not occur in the index. Zodiac is not used in referring to the Mayan calendar- the word is not in the index of Coe, Sharer, Schele, Thompson, and other standard texts on the Maya.
However, the time was not wasted because I got some interesting quotes from Sharer (whom you cite as an authority)
pp. 556-557 “It now appears that by the Late Preclassic the Maya had begun to use a system of numeration by position—one that is, much like our own, involving the use of the mathematical concept of zero, a notable intellectual accomplishment and apparently the earliest known instance of this concept in the world.”
pp. 560 “The three cyclic counts most frequently used by the ancient Maya—the 260-day sacred almanac, the 365-day vague year, and the 52-year calendar round— are very old concepts, shared by all Mesoamerican peoples... ..
The Long Count operated independently of the 260-day and 365-day cycles; it functioned as an absolute chronology, by tracking the number of days elapsed from a zero date, deep in the past, to reach a given day recorded by these two basic calendar cycles.”
pp. 562 The sacred almanac was not divided into months, but was, rather a single succession of 260 days, each day uniquely designated by prefixing a number from one to thirteen before one of the twenty Maya day names.” So your postulated “zodiac” of 13 “months” of 20 days DID NOT EXIST among the Maya.
quote:
I notice that you have not admitted that you made up a quote supposedly written by Sharer. Your own cited reference Sharer 5th ed. points out that the 260-day ritual "tzolkin was not considered to have "months" but just to run a continuous series of 260 days., I guess he is the great deceiver.
quote:Thank you for a fact-based and footnoted reply. The problem is that Lagenaria siceraria the "bottle gourd" is not edible. thus we are referring to different gourds. Unfortunately Ehret's paper does not provide a botanical name so identification is not crystal clear.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Uhh Bernard, I was reading your work, and umm... I see you mentioned gourds didn't appear in Egypt until 3300-3500 BCE. Well this would be wrong.
The bottle gourd (Lagenaria siceraria), although not a food plant, was domesticated early because of its usefulness as a container. The wild gourd is endemic to tropical Africa and originated there (Whitaker 1971, Whitaker and Bemis 1976). However, cultivated bottle gourds earlier than 7000 B.C. were recovered in the Ocampo caves in Mexico (Whitaker, Cutler, and MacNeish 1957, Whitaker and Bemis 1976), while the oldest cultivated forms in South America date to about 3000 B.C. (Whitaker 1971). Lanning (1963) reported a much earlier site, but the gourds there were probably gathered rather than cultivated. Remains of L. siceraria were found in Egyptian tombs dated about 3300-3500 B.C. (Whitaker and Bemis 1976). Thus gourds were cultivated in the New World much earlier than in Egypt.
quote:
Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, African Studies Chair
University of California at Los Angeles
One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty years was the discovery that the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies involved in this momentous development included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). The earliest domestic cattle came to Egypt apparently from these southern neighbors, probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East.
One major technological advance, pottery-making, was also initiated as early as 9000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egypt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East.
Very late in the same span of time, the cultivating of crops began in Egypt. Since most of Egypt belonged then to the Mediterranean climatic zone, many of the new food plants came from areas of similar climate in the Middle East. Two domestic animals of Middle Eastern origin, the sheep and the goat, also entered northeastern Africa from the north during this era.
But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125). One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egyptian bdt, or "bed of gourds" (Late Egyptian bdt, "gourd; cucumber"), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, "edible gourd." Other early Egyptian crops of Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans.
quote:
New genetic and archaeological approaches have substantially improved our understanding of the transition to agriculture, a major turning point in human history that began 10,000–5,000 years ago with the independent domestication of plants and animals in eight world regions. In the Americas, however, understanding the initial domestication of New World species has long been complicated by the early presence of an African enigma, the bottle gourd (Lagenaria siceraria). Indigenous to Africa, it reached East Asia by 9,000–8,000 before present (B.P.) and had a broad New World distribution by 8,000 B.P. Here we integrate genetic and archaeological approaches to address a set of long-standing core questions regarding the introduction of the bottle gourd into the Americas. Did it reach the New World directly from Africa or through Asia? Was it transported by humans or ocean currents? Was it wild or domesticated upon arrival? Fruit rind thickness values and accelerator mass spectrometer radiocarbon dating of archaeological specimens indicate that the bottle gourd was present in the Americas as a domesticated plant by 10,000 B.P., placing it among the earliest domesticates in the New World. Ancient DNA sequence analysis of archaeological bottle gourd specimens and comparison with modern Asian and African landraces identify Asia as the source of its introduction. We suggest that the bottle gourd and the dog, two ‘‘utility’’ species, were domesticated long before any food crops or livestock species, and that both were brought to the Americas by Paleoindian populations as they colonized the New World.
quote:The 260 day cycle consists of the complete cycle constructed by the interlocking of the first 13 numbers with the 20 named days. The fact that there are 20 days, means that the 13 numbers represents months.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:You act as if we had not had this conversation before. As I showed in this thread
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
]In relation to the Mayan zodiac Sharer wrote:” The ancient Maya may have had a zodiac, composed of thirteen houses” (months) or a 13 uinal (month) 20 k’in (day ) . Are you disagreeing with Sharer?
Quetzalcoatl..Oh you Great Deciever You.
.
.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000393
you just made up the Sharer quote. I post my comments from the last time.
on June 13 I posted
quote:and on June 14
As often happens, we can’t tell where Sharer ends and Winters begins. Where are the ending quotation marks? What page is this supposed to be in? I went through every index entry in Sharer for calendar, and— SURPRISE Sharer did not say “The ancient Maya may have had a zodiac, composed of thirteen house (months”).
I did not expect him to say any such thing, and the word “zodiac” does not occur in the index. Zodiac is not used in referring to the Mayan calendar- the word is not in the index of Coe, Sharer, Schele, Thompson, and other standard texts on the Maya.
However, the time was not wasted because I got some interesting quotes from Sharer (whom you cite as an authority)
pp. 556-557 “It now appears that by the Late Preclassic the Maya had begun to use a system of numeration by position—one that is, much like our own, involving the use of the mathematical concept of zero, a notable intellectual accomplishment and apparently the earliest known instance of this concept in the world.”
pp. 560 “The three cyclic counts most frequently used by the ancient Maya—the 260-day sacred almanac, the 365-day vague year, and the 52-year calendar round— are very old concepts, shared by all Mesoamerican peoples... ..
The Long Count operated independently of the 260-day and 365-day cycles; it functioned as an absolute chronology, by tracking the number of days elapsed from a zero date, deep in the past, to reach a given day recorded by these two basic calendar cycles.”
pp. 562 The sacred almanac was not divided into months, but was, rather a single succession of 260 days, each day uniquely designated by prefixing a number from one to thirteen before one of the twenty Maya day names.” So your postulated “zodiac” of 13 “months” of 20 days DID NOT EXIST among the Maya.
quote:
I notice that you have not admitted that you made up a quote supposedly written by Sharer. Your own cited reference Sharer 5th ed. points out that the 260-day ritual "tzolkin was not considered to have "months" but just to run a continuous series of 260 days., I guess he is the great deceiver.
quote:OK. Still, the quote you cited referred to the inedible bottle gourd, which did appear late as I pointed out.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
Note: I wasn't making a connection between Egypt and the Americas, I was just noting domestication occurred in Africa, in situ, earlier than thought.
quote:
Specimens [of bottle gourd] were found in Zambia and South Africa dated at about 2000 B.C. and in Kenya dated about 800 B.C. (Sauer 1994: 51).
quote:Actually no. It refers to the edible bottle gourd.
OK. Still, the quote you cited referred to the inedible bottle gourd, which did appear late as I pointed out.
From my paper in Hallofmaat
quote:
But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125). One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egyptian bdt, or "bed of gourds" (Late Egyptian bdt, "gourd; cucumber"), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, "edible gourd." Other early Egyptian crops of Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans.
quote:Since you haven't read it or looked at the figures, how do you know what I said? The whole question of who is or isn't "black" is a swamp as we can see from the inexaustible and vituperous discussions on ES on this topic. Focus on dolicocephalic and prognathous in regard to the Olmec heads.
Originally posted by akoben:
Oi, Bernardo:
Why do you think I didn't read your racist insults in "Robbing Native American Cultures"? Explain how I misinterpreted you. I understand you want to focus on plants. However I'm not an expert so I wont know if your lying, again. I do however know a thing or two about Nile Valley. So I want to know if you still hold your racist views expressed in "Robbing Native American Cultures", especially under "The Colossal Olmec Heads"? If I have misrepresented what you have said please do explain.
Don't want to expose yourself eh?
quote:Don't play this game with me old man. We are talking "social races" (know that term?), and you know damn well what I mean by "black". Which is why you even used Brace 1993 (of all studies) to "debunk" the so-called Afrocentric argument that Nile Valley inhabitants were black. And this, "Some Afrocentrists have argued that modern populations of Egyptians and Nubians look different from those of antiquity, but both Trigger (1978) and Berry, Berry, and Ucko (1967) point to a "remarkable degree of homogeneity" in this area for 5,000 years." As if you even knew what was said here.
Since you haven't read it or looked at the figures, how do you know what I said? The whole question of who is or isn't "black" is a swamp as we can see from the inexaustible and vituperous discussions on ES on this topic. Focus on dolicocephalic and prognathous in regard to the Olmec heads.
quote:Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
Accordingly, civilization was said to have originated with the "black" peoples of the Upper Nile in Ethiopia and the Sudan and to have been transmitted from there to the ancient Egyptians, also defined as "black" regardless of their skin color and their other physical characteristics.
quote:Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone, what is this about? Please explain? Slave ancestors??
The people claimed by Van Sertima and other Afrocentrists to have influenced the Olmecs (and to be the models for the heads) are Nubians or Egyptians, that is, North and East Africans, whereas the slave ancestors of African-Americans came primarily from tropical West Africa. These groups are very different and do not look alike. [17] Flat noses are particularly inappropriate as racial markers, because the shape of the nose is primarily a function of climatic factors such as the ambient temperature and the moisture content of the air.
quote:You forced me to do some research. I have Ehret 1993 what it says on p. 119 is :
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Actually no. It refers to the edible bottle gourd.
OK. Still, the quote you cited referred to the inedible bottle gourd, which did appear late as I pointed out.
From my paper in Hallofmaat
quote:
But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125). One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egyptian bdt, or "bed of gourds" (Late Egyptian bdt, "gourd; cucumber"), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, "edible gourd." Other early Egyptian crops of Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans.
quote:note that at this time all he had was linguistic evidence-- but it refers to cucurbits not Lagenaria
... no later than the proto-Sahelian period, which followed the proto-Saharo-Sahelian era and is estimated to have been about the mid-seventh millennium. the linguistic evidence also suggests something not yet followed up in archaeological investigations: thus this period may have seen the domestication of indigenous cucurbits in the Saharo-Sudanese neolithic.
quote:]
{cucurbits} members of the family are not very common in the wild in the United States (withthe exceptioin of the Buffalo gourd in the Southwest), but some of them are very familiar in cultivation. they include pumpkins and squashes, various species of the genus Cucurbita; the watermelon, Citrullus vulgaris; and the cucumber and muskmelon, different species of Cucumis
quote:Well, that's the wrong paper. This paper, "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture" was published in 1996. In this paper he clearly states edible gourds.
You forced me to do some research. I have Ehret 1993 what it says on p. 119 is :
quote:Oh, so now it's the inedible ones?
But not what I was dealing with the hard-shelled inedible Lagenaria
quote:I an not Salsassin and I've never said that Egyptians were not native Africans. so the following is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
TE]Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
quote:Actually it's completely relevant as I was reading your work and you seem to think Ancient Egyptians were not, as you put it "black Africans".
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:I an not Salsassin and I've never said that Egyptians were not native Africans. so the following is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
TE]Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
L
quote:As I pointed out the question of "black" is a swamp that immediately gets vituperous and contentious. Basalt is a black rock and is not evidence in and of its own. Our argument about the Olmec heads NOT being images of Egyptians does not hinge on the color of the statues.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Actually it's completely relevant as I was reading your work and you seem to think Ancient Egyptians were not, as you put it "black Africans".
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:I an not Salsassin and I've never said that Egyptians were not native Africans. so the following is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
TE]Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
L
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
). However, there are generalities that apply to the majority of people in a particular ecologic situation for example—people all over the world that live in dry environments (deserts, high altitudes) have longer noses because they need to moisten the air before it reaches the lungs. The point is that when we really take a good look at ALL 19 Olmec heads they do not resemble EITHER Egyptians OR people from Benin (as a representative sub-Saharan West African) so that neither Van Sertima’s Egyptians (particularly in his revised time table of 1100 BC nor Winters’ Mande were the models for these heads. quote:i.e. flat noses but not prognathous or dolicocephalic.
The people represented in the Olmec sculptures had short, round, flat faces with thick lips, flat noses, and epicanthic folds; that is, they resembled people who still live in the tropical lowlands of Mexico (see figs. 10 and 11).
quote:Indeed, I'll admit, it(black) can
As I pointed out the question of "black" is a swamp that immediately gets vituperous and contentious.
quote:Straw man.
Our argument about the Olmec heads NOT being images of Egyptians does not hinge on the color of the statues.
quote:Notice this racist bastard talks about African Americans in the most condescending way as fools only capable of superficial reasoning.
The reason why Van Sertima’s or Winters’ proposals resonate with African Americans is that when they see the black basalt colossal Olmec Heads they have an immediate (but superficial reaction) “they look like us!” They are immediately receptive and uncritical to the rest of the “evidence” proposed.
quote:Yes there blacks of africa that do not look exactly
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:The reason why Van Sertima’s or Winters’ proposals resonate with African Americans is that when they see the black basalt colossal Olmec Heads they have an immediate (but superficial reaction) “they look like us!” They are immediately receptive and uncritical to the rest of the “evidence” proposed. We had to deal with the question that, in fact, there is an enormous amount of both genetic and morphological variation in Africa— the Khoisan, Akan, Senegalese, Egyptian, etc. etc. are ALL African but they don’t look alike.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:I an not Salsassin and I've never said that Egyptians were not native Africans. so the following is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
TE]Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
L
quote:THERE IS SO MUCH PROOF SHOWING EARLY NUBIANS,MOST MODERN NUBIANS AND MOST ANCIENT EGYPTIANS LOOK CLEARLY BLACK and they look like west africans and central africans.
Originally posted by akoben:
quote:Straw man.
Our argument about the Olmec heads NOT being images of Egyptians does not hinge on the color of the statues.
quote:Notice this racist bastard talks about African Americans in the most condescending way as fools only capable of superficial reasoning.
The reason why Van Sertima’s or Winters’ proposals resonate with African Americans is that when they see the black basalt colossal Olmec Heads they have an immediate (but superficial reaction) “they look like us!” They are immediately receptive and uncritical to the rest of the “evidence” proposed.
Notice too that he misrepresents Van Sertima who never said ALL 19 Olmec heads were Africans. And when the Great Deceiver talks of "generalities that apply to the majority of people" he over looks the fact that even as you can find Egyptian and Nubians that don't "look like" the heads you can find native Americans that don't look like the heads either. So when he condescendingly talks of blacks as having immediate but superficial reaction to the heads he is really confessing his superficiality.
If Africa has enormous amount of both genetic and morphological variation why did you selectively choose those Nubians when there are clearly others that "look like us!"? If Africa has enormous amount of both genetic and morphological variation how can you imply Africans didn't have epicanthic folds? You admit your deception when you said photographs can prove almost anything, well isn't that what you where trying to do: provide pictorial "evidence" that the Egyptians and Nubians didn't look like stereotypical true Negro, or even native African? Which is exactly why you used Brace and Cavalli-Sforza with their nineteenth century craniology and theories of "Caucasian Ethiopians". You knew damn well what "black" was and you were out to prove Nile Valley civilisation was not black.
quote:And what is all this talk of Slave Ancestors...? LOL....you all out Clyde for misunderstanding History and make a generalized racist comment like Slave Ancestors, when the Native Americans especially those decended from the Mexica, Incas, and other Meso Americans were the Slaves BEFORE us African Americans...LOL...and the sad part is it happened in your own land by Europeans...The only reason African Slaves were brought over was to replace your people so don't start feeling your self.....
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Indeed, I'll admit, it(black) can
As I pointed out the question of "black" is a swamp that immediately gets vituperous and contentious.
be subjective. But, I'm afraid
I am going to have to ask you to
please give me an example of what
you mean by "black African"??
The rest of the post is irrelevant
as I'm not arguing for Africans as
the Olmecs. I point out that genetic
and anthropological evidences provide
clear indication of Asian genetic
lineages and skeletal morphology.
The fault of Clyde is limited
understanding of OOA.
OOA provides evidence confirming
that African-Australian resembling
humans, inhabited East Asia during
the Paleolithic, but not as a direct
migration from Africa(as Clyde would
want to believe), but as a result
of expansion of OOA migrants.
Since one of the confirmation
stipulations are to find skeletons/skulls
similar to those in Australia, Asia,
Europe, and the Americas around the
time of OOA. This confirms OOA.
(Out Of Africa)
quote:
Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
Second, how are the Ancient Egyptians and Nubians not a representation of a Black African state..? Where is your evidence of a Non Black..Non African origin and peopling of Egypt and Nubia..?
Last I checked Egypt, its culture, people, religion, and state came from the South of Africa amoung people we would label black....
Badarian - Ancestral origins
Debates over the ancestral origins of Ancient Egypt continue to this present day, despite numerous conclusive scientific studies which all seem to point in the same direction. Because the Badarians were obviously ancestors of the ancient Egyptians, numerous anthropological studies were performed after two successful excavations were made in the mid- to late-1920s. Summarizing the results of them all, in 1971 Physical Anthropologist Eugen Strouhal, discusses and re-analyzes over a dozen independent scientific studies (a couple of which were his own) performed previously. He concludes that the Badarians were predominantly a mixture of races:
...the Negroid component among the Badarians is anthropologically well based. Even though the share of 'pure' Negroes is small [in the sample of 117 Badarian skulls studied] (6-8 per cent), being half that of the Europoid forms (12.9 per cent), the high majority of mixed forms (80.3 per cent) suggests a long-lasting dispersion of Negroid genes in the population. It can be interpreted by the supposition that the mixture of both components began many generations previously (The Journal of African History, 1971, Volume 12, Number 1, pp. 1-9).
[/QB]
quote:Just showing ignorance. WE know the Aztec name perfectly well tonalpohualli "count of the days". The Yucatec Maya Diccionario Cordemex on p 384 lists tsol'kin as the name for this 260-day sacred calendar .
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Anthropologist do not know the name for the Amerind sacred calendar or the 13 numbers so they gave it a name.
quote:
The Maya, for example, in using the calendar allowed them to recognize the seasonal events. For example, we see the moon for a period of 20 days, and then the moon is waxing for 13 days.
In addition to studying the moon, the Maya were also interested in Venus. The third brightest star in the heavens is Venus. Among the Maya, Venus is associated with several events of the maize cycle : 1) planting maize with Venus of morning star ; and Venus as evening star when maize grows.
quote:
A significant aspect of American calendrics is the wedding of rituals and the Sacred Round. We see Twenty Signs at intervals of 13. The Four year Bearers are Rabbit, Reed, Flint and House. If you look carefully at the almanac we see ritual plants/trees elk/deer,heart , crescent moon, (Royal) Lord, bowl, four world quarters, bird. In addition to these elements we see a number of Toltec gods: Black Elk, Hill Heart, Maize God and etc. and Nine Figures.[
quote:This representation is clearly colonial and definitely NOT toltec. The bottom line-- more spam to avoid acknowledging that the supposed PROOF by the (unknown provenance 19th century) 2 not 3 calabashes from West Africa that the Mande taught the Olmecs about a supposed 13 unit zodiac is totally worthless.
Here we see another Toltec almanac. In this calendar we see many cultural elements of Toltec society including the crocodile, bird, trees/plants,deer, snake, sun, and moon
.
quote:BWAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!
The great majority of the slaves that came from Africa to the United States came from sub-Saharan West Africa as shown in the following http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofafricadiaspora.html.
quote:http://books.google.com/books?id=2Lw_UwfZlPAC&pg=PA157&dq=origin+american+slaves+curtin&ei=zFVISY9hicgyzsCp4QY
Originally posted by argyle104:
The above scholarly beatdown has been brought to you by Argyle.
quote:Curtin began the myth that only 10 million Africans came to the Americas. This was a guesstimation. Back in the 1970's there was considerable debate showing that this was just revisionist history.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:http://books.google.com/books?id=2Lw_UwfZlPAC&pg=PA157&dq=origin+american+slaves+curtin&ei=zFVISY9hicgyzsCp4QY
Originally posted by argyle104:
The above scholarly beatdown has been brought to you by Argyle.
As someone said "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Just showing ignorance. WE know the Aztec name perfectly well tonalpohualli "count of the days". The Yucatec Maya Diccionario Cordemex on p 384 lists tsol'kin as the name for this 260-day sacred calendar .
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Anthropologist do not know the name for the Amerind sacred calendar or the 13 numbers so they gave it a name.
quote:
The Maya, for example, in using the calendar allowed them to recognize the seasonal events. For example, we see the moon for a period of 20 days, and then the moon is waxing for 13 days.
In addition to studying the moon, the Maya were also interested in Venus. The third brightest star in the heavens is Venus. Among the Maya, Venus is associated with several events of the maize cycle : 1) planting maize with Venus of morning star ; and Venus as evening star when maize grows.
Humbug. You have no references for this.
quote:
A significant aspect of American calendrics is the wedding of rituals and the Sacred Round. We see Twenty Signs at intervals of 13. The Four year Bearers are Rabbit, Reed, Flint and House. If you look carefully at the almanac we see ritual plants/trees elk/deer,heart , crescent moon, (Royal) Lord, bowl, four world quarters, bird. In addition to these elements we see a number of Toltec gods: Black Elk, Hill Heart, Maize God and etc. and Nine Figures.[
This is NOT a Toltec or Maya tonalpohualli. Its folio 1 of the Fejervary-Mayer Codex that belongs to the Borgia group of codices. There is no such god in Mesoamerica as "Black Elk".
You just make up things as you go along-- it only shows the depth of your ignorance.
.
quote:This representation is clearly colonial and definitely NOT toltec. The bottom line-- more spam to avoid acknowledging that the supposed PROOF by the (unknown provenance 19th century) 2 not 3 calabashes from West Africa that the Mande taught the Olmecs about a supposed 13 unit zodiac is totally worthless.
Here we see another Toltec almanac. In this calendar we see many cultural elements of Toltec society including the crocodile, bird, trees/plants,deer, snake, sun, and moon
.
quote:Your post only contained a link with trumped up numbers and then ascribed to groups that the writer feels will best serve eurocentric propaganda.
As someone said "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts
quote:Then explain why there is documented evidence of northern Africans, eastern Africans (including the African horn), and southern Africans, this includes the so called berbers.
As someone said "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts
quote:Explain why African Americans look like northern, eastern, and southern Africans. Are you saying that Europeans can make the western Africans that you say were brought over look like Moroccans, Egyptians, Nigeriens, Malians, South Africans, Ethiopians, Somalis, Sudanese, Algerians etc?
quote:Based on what? Your own personal fantasy?
The great majority of the slaves that came from Africa to the United States came from sub-Saharan West Africa
quote:LOL! Notice how they left off both of the Congo countries. Again these maps are basically pseudoscience anthropology reformed to masquerade as pseudohistory.
The great majority of the slaves that came from Africa to the United States came from sub-Saharan West Africa as shown in the following http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofafricadiaspora.html.
quote:^^^Lmaooooo, sounds like a lot of he said she said. I've also heard white people say Ancient Egyptians looked white or Arab, so what's your point?? Damn kid, can you want to be anything less, or be anymore ashamed of being west African(If you even are part of the African diaspora)? Do tell me why you are so hell bent in representing West Africans as East Africans, South Africans everything except West African? Why do you hate West Africans so much?
I have seen South Africans write that Dr. Dre looks like a South African, northern Sudanese write that Bill Cosby looks like he is from northern Sudan, Ethiopians tell another Ethiopian that she looks like Diana Ross. I have also seen Ethiopians tell another Ethiopian that he looks like Tupac Shakur, Somalis say that Aaliyah and Puff Daddy look like somalis.
quote:Its interesting that I whenever I refute the psychotic Eurocentric pathology expoused on this board constantly that slavery was limited to only a few African groups whites deemed as "negroid", you pop out and attack my doing so with utmost hostility.
^^^^Lmao too funny!!!! Is that all you know how to post? I mean seriously, you have 1083 posts at the moment, and I honestly can say 1050 of them are the exact same post as the above, with the same claim to have given an intellectual beatdown, hilarious......
You talk about others being intellectual frauds who argue regurgitated subjects.....damn hypocrite. ha ha ha
quote:Well unlike those white people, the Sudanese, South Africans, Somalis, and Ethiopians are right. Since I've seen many images of the people of the above groups.
Lmaooooo, sounds like a lot of he said she said. I've also heard white people say Ancient Egyptians looked white or Arab, so what's your point?? Damn kid, can you want to be anything less, or be anymore ashamed of being west African(If you even are part of the African diaspora)? Do tell me why you are so hell bent in representing West Africans as East Africans, South Africans everything except West African? Why do you hate West Africans so much?
quote:Define what nations are "West Africa".
Do tell me why you are so hell bent in representing West Africans as East Africans, South Africans everything except West African? Why do you hate West Africans so much?
quote:Dude, look in the mirror, it's because you're white and live in Europe, stop the bullshit, you're not fooling anyone.
Its interesting that I whenever I refute the psychotic Eurocentric pathology expoused on this board constantly that slavery was limited to only a few African groups whites deemed as "negroid", you pop out and attack my doing so with utmost hostility.
quote:That last part isn't surprising given the fact that more of us have L1b than have L1c, and L1c is more common in the Southern half of Africa while L1b is more common in the Northern half.
Ely B, Wilson JL, Jackson F, Jackson BA.
African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups.
BMC Biol. 2006 Oct 12;4:34.
Department of Biological Sciences, University of South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina, 29208, USA. ely@sc.edu
We have studied the distribution of mtDNA haplotypes among West African ethnic groups to determine how often mtDNA haplotypes can be used to reconnect Americans of African descent to a country or ethnic group of a maternal African ancestor. The nucleotide sequence of the mtDNA hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) usually provides sufficient information to assign a particular mtDNA to the proper haplogroup, and it contains most of the variation that is available to distinguish a particular mtDNA haplotype from closely related haplotypes. In this study, samples of general African-American and specific Gullah/Geechee HVS-I haplotypes were compared with two databases of HVS-I haplotypes from sub-Saharan Africa, and the incidence of perfect matches recorded for each sample. RESULTS: When two independent African-American samples were analyzed, more than half of the sampled HVS-I mtDNA haplotypes exactly matched common haplotypes that were shared among multiple African ethnic groups. Another 40% did not match any sequence in the database, and fewer than 10% were an exact match to a sequence from a single African ethnic group. Differences in the regional distribution of haplotypes were observed in the African database, and the African-American haplotypes were more likely to match haplotypes found in ethnic groups from West or West Central Africa than those found in eastern or southern Africa. Fewer than 14% of the African-American mtDNA sequences matched sequences from only West Africa or only West Central Africa.
quote:^Shows the diversity of Africans, which have never been static.
CONCLUSION: Our database of sub-Saharan mtDNA sequences includes the most common haplotypes that are shared among ethnic groups from multiple regions of Africa. These common haplotypes have been found in half of all sub-Saharan Africans. More than 60% of the remaining haplotypes differ from the common haplotypes at a single nucleotide position in the HVS-I region, and they are likely to occur at varying frequencies within sub-Saharan Africa.
quote:
However, the finding that 40% of the African-American mtDNAs analyzed had no match in the database indicates that only a small fraction of the total number of African haplotypes has been identified. In addition, the finding that fewer than 10% of African-American mtDNAs matched mtDNA sequences from a single African region suggests that few African Americans might be able to trace their mtDNA lineages to a particular region of Africa, and even fewer will be able to trace their mtDNA to a single ethnic group. However, no firm conclusions should be made until a much larger database is available. It is clear, however, that when identical mtDNA haplotypes are shared among many ethnic groups from different parts of Africa, it is impossible to determine which single ethnic group was the source of a particular maternal ancestor based on the mtDNA sequence.
quote:^The above is on E1b1b1a formerly known as E3b1a, E3b2 or E3b*78.
"Haplotype XI is an "Oriental" haplotype (Lucotte and Smets, 1999); and the mean frequency of 11.3% observed for this peculiar haplotype in the various western populations studied here is suggestive of the corresponding contribution in their gene pools, coming -in historical times- from such regions as Egypt (Persichetti et al, 1992) or East Africa (Pasarino et al,1998). The most elevated percentages of haplotype XI observed in the present study concern Songhaiis (from Niger) and Bambaras (from Mali)."
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 17 - n, 1(1-5) - 2002
Haplotypes of the Y Chromosome in Some Populations of West Africa
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:Define "west" Africa.
Most slaves were ubducted and sold, sold, or taken from West Africa. And .. most Afro Americans were born somewhere in the Americas. While on one hand for me this establishes a bond with West Africa, the greater bond with all Africa (that all africans share) isn't to be ignored or forgotten IMO.
quote:Look folks, the above strawman and ad hominem attacks are what he has been reduced to. The above is how he is trying to escape the intellectual thrashing that is being administered to him.
Dude, look in the mirror, it's because you're white and live in Europe, stop the bullshit, you're not fooling anyone.
quote:So are you saying that those Africans are lying? We know that you do on this forum is repeat and believe whatever your eurocentric masters say or write, but this absolutely amazing.
^^^Lmaooooo, sounds like a lot of he said she said. I've also heard white people say Ancient Egyptians looked white or Arab, so what's your point??
quote:Even if we assume that your Mande ideology is correct, and this is not a sure thing since you give no references and we know that you make up things, this only shows that the calabashes have African ideology. It proves absolutely nothing about these being the origin of Mesoamerican calendrics. Just one of the many differences-- Mesoamericans associated the rabbit with the Moon not Orion.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Prudence M. Rice in Maya Calendar Origin, makes it clear that the Maya sacre calendar of 13 month 20 days include the day names: ‘rain, Lord, world, snake ,deer and rabbit (see p.34). This is interesting because the same characters are found on the 13month calabash from West Africa.
Mande calendrics are the result of a combination climatic, social andastronomical factors. The moon, seasons and stars are used for reckoning time. The major star studied by the Mande is Sirius.
Mats play an important role in Mande calculations. The mat and mat motifs play an important role in Mayan society as well.
If you look at this calabash you will notice that in the center of the calabash we have a figure that resembles the Kanaga sign. It also very interesting that this Kanaga figure also includes a mat constituting the central design in the figure.
The characters on this calabash are explained by Mande cosmology. We see the following charaters on this almanac.
1. 2 lizards pointing out the four directions (North, South, East and West) plus the mat in the center of the four directions. These lizard figures probably represent the world.
2. Antelope (deer)
3. 7 circles or the Pleides
4. butterfly
5. bow/ double sword
6. grain/tree
7. 2 people representing humanity and the headrest denoting royalty in African societies
8. Crescent Moon & star (Venus?)
9. heart or ace of club figure
10. rabbit/hare
11. crocodile & snake
12. Crane
13. Calabash or bowl
These figures on the Calabash are ritual emblems associated with Malinke-Bambara.The Malinke-Bambara recognized the Sirius system in their cosmology.
In relation to the Lizard in facing upward we see the calabash or bowl on the right hand side. This calabash may represent the water bowl of Faro, the leading god of the Bambara. On the left hand side of this Lizard we see the seven circles, which are believed to have represented the seven stars of the Pleides. Among the Malinke-Bambara and other West African people the Pleides was a marker of the growing season.
The second Lizard is facing left. Above the right arm we see the seven stars of the Pleides. Below the right are we see the double sword which may represent Orion’s sword. Orion’s sword is that region of the sky below Orion’s belt that includes the Orion Nebula. It is interesting that in relation to the Pleides and Sword of Orion, we see the rabbit/hare. This is most interesting because Orion was said to be the hunter of the hare/rabbit.
The Antelope is believed to have taught human beings to farm. It relates to the Malinke-Bambara tradition that a half-man half-antelope introduced agriculture to mankind.
The Crane is also related to Malinke-Bambara tradition. Among the Bambara the Crested Crane is credited with the birth of speech.
The adult figure on the calabash and the head rest make it clear that this figure represented a Lord of dignitary. Finally the heart shaped or ace of clubs figure probably represents the flani da. The flani da symbolized the One Creator.
This interpretation of the calabash from the Guinea coast suggest that it records some event that involved agriculture. It also suggest that it corresponds to Malinke-Bambara traditions.
The Maya day signs: Lord ,World, snake, deer, and rabbit are found on the sacre calendar of the Maya. As noted above these same signs are found on the Guinea calabash calendar (or almanac ?). We have shown how the signs on the Guinea calabash are explained by Malinke-Bamabara ideology. The similarity in Mayan and Malinke-Bambara ideology found in the calendrics can best be explained by the fact that the Maya and other Amerind groups got this calendar from the Olmecs, who I have shown spoke Malinke-Bambara. These shared ideology for the figures on the sacre Mayan calendars and the Guinea coast calabash support the view of Leo Wiener in Africa and the Discovery of America that the calendars were related.
In summary this calabash confirms the theory of Leo Wiener, that the Mayan sacre calendar was related to calendars in West Africa.
.
quote:This does not disprove anything written by Wiener. Wiener only claimed West Africans had a 13 month calendar, like the Americans. This calabash calendar support this view.
1- Moon and Venus
2-buffalo head
3-double sword
4-snake staff
5-scarab
6-fetish chair
7-tree
8-plant
9-butterfly
10-ship
11-crane
12-crossed lizards
13Pleiades
The two calabashes are clearly derived from the same tradition. They have 10 identical symbols. Number 3 has crocodile, two men, and antelope, while number 2 has scarab, plant, and (most crucially) a ship flying an English flag. This clearly disproves BOTH Wiener's (and Van Sertima's) claim that the Mande influenced Mesoamerica circa AD 1300 and your claim that the influence was epi-Olmec (100 BC) or even much older. I can't believe that Wiener actually saw the images of the calabashes and , despite the image of the English ship, still claimed that the calabashes represented a link in the 1300's with Mesoamerica.
quote:Your response is sort of incoherent.
In this instance I was referring to the area that is usually referred to as West africa: the gold coast up to the Sahel and the connected inland areas on the Western side of Africa. Really, areas referred to as NorthWestern or SouthWestern Africa are still in Western Africa though. Like Morroco, Algeria, and Namibia.
What term I use depends on the context. When I'm referring to Kemet or ancient Egypt/Sudan I use either North, Northern, Saharan, or East -African, and rarely "North Eastern" only because when I want to get that specific I might as well say Nile Valle yAfrican.
quote:LOL Clyde you are so amusing when you spin and turn when you have no reply and are throwing up red herrings and spam to cover up factual nakedness.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Quetzalcoatl
quote:This does not disprove anything written by Wiener. Wiener only claimed West Africans had a 13 month calendar, like the Americans. This calabash calendar support this view.
1- Moon and Venus
2-buffalo head
3-double sword
4-snake staff
5-scarab
6-fetish chair
7-tree
8-plant
9-butterfly
10-ship
11-crane
12-crossed lizards
13Pleiades
The two calabashes are clearly derived from the same tradition. They have 10 identical symbols. Number 3 has crocodile, two men, and antelope, while number 2 has scarab, plant, and (most crucially) a ship flying an English flag. This clearly disproves BOTH Wiener's (and Van Sertima's) claim that the Mande influenced Mesoamerica circa AD 1300 and your claim that the influence was epi-Olmec (100 BC) or even much older. I can't believe that Wiener actually saw the images of the calabashes and , despite the image of the English ship, still claimed that the calabashes represented a link in the 1300's with Mesoamerica.
The ship on this calabash, like the two human beings on the other clabash support the view that these calabashes may have also served as an almanac. If they were almanacs, this calabash was simply recoding the date/season an English ship arrived in the area.
I don't understand why you keep claiming that Wiener dated these calabashes back to Olmec or Medieval times. He did no such thing.
Quetzalcoatl.....Oh you Great Deciever You.
.
quote:Thus, Wiener clearly claims that Mexican civilization had Arabic words that had come through the Mandingo. This provides a time range for these events. I use AD 1300 as a shorthand because this is what Van Sertima claims on the basis of Abu Bakari's trip.
Chapter XII “The Mandingo Elements in the Mexican Civilization” pp. 228-322
p. 232 [speaking of the loincloth maxtli]”But this Arabic word got to Mexico through the Mandingos before Columbus.”
pp. 236-238 [Wiener writes of the development of heraldry among the Arabs after AD 1000 and its extension to the Mandingoes] pp. 238 “thus there cannot be the slightest doubt that the Mexican coats of arms are evolutions of the Mandingo n’tene in its original signification.
p.240 [speaking of the name toltecatl “It can be easily shown that the name arose only after the Mandingos had influenced the Mexican civilization.”
quote:If you read properly, Wiener did not claim that the New World had a 13 month calendar. He said that the calendar was 20 times 13. The reference is to a 13 part ZODIAC and the theme of the whole chapter and this section is that Africans introduced these concepts to the New World.
pp. 268-272 [The section leading up to and including the calabashes.]
p. 268 “We shall now begin ad ovo and will show the evolution of certain aspects of astrology and magic from the Arabs through the Mandingos to the American Indians, especially of Mexico and Central America.”
p. 269 “To us the most interesting gadwal is the one which is the basis of the ‘Plate of the Bacabs’ in Central America. . . we have still ample documentary evidence to prove that the American ‘Plate’ has gone through a Mandingo redaction. In the first place, the central square contains the Mandingo tutelary god with is attributes and appurtenances. The numerical calculation based on 20 and 13, which is the essence of American calendars, is surely built on African models. Here again we posess but the scantiest material for verification, but just enough to be startling and unique, Travelers have taken no trouble to ascertain African calendars and chronologies. The following few facts are about all we know. The Habbes have a lunar month of five weeks of six days each. (1) The Tchi tribes have a seven-day week of varying length, (2) while the Yorubas have a week of five days, six of them making a lunar month.(3) The Islamic week has everywhere else taken the place of the native time reckoning, but as the numeration of the Mandes, like that of most Sudanese people is based on “five,” (4) the original week was unquestionably the same as the Yorubas. For astrological purposes there was in use a division of the zodiac in thirteen parts, such as has been found on three calabashes in western Africa (5 Bork paper)and it is a curious fact that a similar division into thirteen is recorded only among the Khirghizes and in America.”
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Sauron:
quote:
Originally posted by Hori:
ROFLMBAO!!!
IS THAT YOUR LAME ASS ATTEMPT (RUSSELL & TONY LAWRENCE) AT SAVING FACE
^^ A SOLEMN PICTURE OF argyle104 AND HIS SECRET ASIAN FB
^^^ BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAA!!!!!!!!!!! :
quote:Spam- already dealt with see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000348
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Wiener has already shown that the Mande probably had a calendar with 13 months of 20 days as evident from the Calabash zodiacs.
Mande calendrics are the result of a combination climatic, social andastronomical factors. The moon, seasons and stars are used for reckoning time. The major star studied by the Mande is Sirius.
The Mande have several calendars, lunar, ritual and etc. The Mande system of notation is based on 20, 60 and 80 according to M. Griaule & G.Dieterlen.
Aspects of the Mande notation system is found among most West Africans. Griaule in Signes grapheques des Dogon, made it clear that the number 80 also represented 20 (80÷20=20; 20 x 4=80) and probably relates to the Mande people (see: R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery, (1976) p.80)
The base of the Mande calculation is 60 (60÷20=3; 3x20=60). The Malinke-Bambara term for 20 is muġa . The Malinke-Bambara term for 60 is debė ni- muġa or 40+20 (=60).
[IMG]http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/Dogon1.GIF
[/IMG]
The Dogon claim they got their calendric system from the Mande. The importance of the number 20 is evident in the discussion of the trajectory of the star Digitaria around Serius, as illustrated in Figure iii, above. Note the small cluster of 20 dots (DL) in the figure that represent the star when it is furtherest from Sirius (R. Temple, Sirius Mystery (1976) p.40)
In the figure of Kanaga sign above Figure i, also illustrates the base notation 20 and 60. The head, tail and four feet each represent 20 ,i.e., 6 x 20=120; 120÷60=2. The calculation of Sigui also indicates the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 as illustrated in Figure ii.
Further confirmation of the base 20 notation in relation to the Sirius system is the kosa wala. For example on the koso wala we have 10 sequences made up of 30 rectangles (10x30 =300), which can be divided by 20: 300÷20=15; and 60: 300÷60=5. And as noted by Griaule & Dieterlen in addition to the above, 20 reactangles in the koso wala represent stars and constellations (R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery (1976) p.48).
The Mayan system like the Mande system is also based on 60 and 20. For example as you note in your question the basic part of the Haab year is the Tun 18 month 20 day calendar, plus the five day month of Wayeb.
The basic unit of the calendar is the Tun made up of 18 winal (months) of 20 k’in (days) or 360 days. Thus we have 18x20=360; 360÷60=6.
Next we have the K’tun,(20 Tun) which equals 7200 days, 7200÷60=120÷60=2; or 7200÷20=360÷20=18.
After K’tun comes Baktun (=400 Tun) 144,000 days, 144,000÷60=2400÷60=40; or 144,000÷20=7200÷20=360÷20=18.
Yes the Mande had the zero. The Mayan symbol for ‘zero’ means completion. M. Griaule in Signes d’Ecriture Bambara, says the Malinke-Bambara sign for zero is fu ‘nothing, the emptiness preceding creation’ (see Signes graphique soudanais, (eds) Marcel Griaule & Germaine Dieterlen
In conclusion, Mayan calendrics are probably based on the Mande notation system of 20 and 60. And the Malinke-Bambara people possessed the zero.
As pointed out on numerous occasions during this debate many Mayan groups record successfully time only using the 13 month 20 day calendar so there was no need for the Olmec to record a date and use a system like the Haab (Tun+ Wayeb ) to determine its actual time. A similar calendar of 13 months and 20 days was recorded on West African calabashes.
As illustrated above the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 is also the system of the Maya. The Mayan name for day k’in, may also be of Mande origin since it agrees with the Malinke-Bambara term kenè that means ‘day light, day’. The Mayan term for series of 360 days is tun, this corresponds to the Mande term dõ-na ‘an arrangement of dates/days’, the Mande term for calendar is dõ-gyãle-la. The Mayan speakers probably used tun, because they learned the Mande calendar in association with ritual days of the Mande speaking Olmecs.
.
quote:As usual when Clyde gets desperate he fills the air waves of reposted spam which has already been dealt with see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000348
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
the 13 month calendar continues to be used in Meso-America and the finding that Africans also used this calendar would provide great import into the origin of this calendar in MesoAmerica.
You are such a deciever and will do anything to win an argument. Leo Wiener was talking about the sacre calendar of the Maya called Tzolk'in.
This calendar is where we get the Calendar Round. Coe and Stone, Reading the Maya Glyphs wrote : "The first part of a Calendar Round is the 260-day Count, often called in the literature by the ersatz Maya name "tsolk'in". This is the eternally repeating cycle , and concist of the numbers 1 through 13, permuting against a minicycle of 20 named days. Since 13 and 20 have no common denominator, a particular day name will not recur with a particular coefficient until 260 days have passed.[b] No one knows exactly when this extremely sacred calendar was invented, but it was certainly already ancient by the time the Classic period began. There are still highland Maya calendar priests who can calculate the day in the 260-day Count, and it is apparent that this basic way of time-reckoning has never slipped a day since its inception" (pp.41-42).
This sacre calendar has 13 months of 20 days (13x20=260). John Montgomery, How to Read Maya Hieroglyphs, wrote "The Tzolk'in or 260 day Sacred Almanac, was widely used in ancient times for divinatory purposes. Guatemalan Maya and other cultures in Mexico still use it as a means of "day keeping". The origins of the 260-day calendar are debatable although a number of scholars have suggested it corresponds to the nine moth period of human gestation" (p.74).
As you can see experts don't know where this calendar originated. Dr. Wiener, as an astute scholars suggested that it originated in Africa, where we see the 13 month zodiac calabashes.
Shame on you. Why can't you tell the truth instead of attacking great scholars such as Leo Wiener.
.
quote:^
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
^^^^ http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000506
If you haven't realized that
everyone takes you as a joke,
by now, you really are a nutcase.
The intellectual thrashings?
Lmaoooo buwahahahahahahahahaa.
I could flinch, and more
intellectuality will come from
my keyboard than you can any ever
produce in your entire life...
You can also find your fallacies
here....
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000111;p=1#000044
EXACTLY! lol.
quote:Just curious...did you not just make a post at Queztquatl about East, north and South African being sold as slaves and now you post to alive to define a West African nation???
Originally posted by argyle104:
Alive-(What Box) we all have noticed that you have avoided the questions.
You once again have proven yourself to be the forum's butler.
quote:HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM............
Just curious...did you not just make a post at Queztquatl about East, north and South African being sold as slaves and now you post to alive to define a West African nation???
HMMM
quote:LOL...What a moron you are, boy. Don't force me to be added to the LIST of people that have intellectually and scholarly thrashed and abused you on this site...LOL. Your nothing but comedy...a laugh....the forums annual trash...I laugh at your ignoRANTS...boy.
Originally posted by argyle104:
Jari-Ankhamun wrote:
quote:Now DEFINE...North, South and East Africa...I mean you are such a big Scholar right?
Originally posted by argyle104:
Quetzalcoatl wrote:
quote:Then explain why there is documented evidence of northern Africans, eastern Africans (including the African horn), and southern Africans, this includes the so called berbers.
As someone said "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts
Are you saying those historical documents I posted are lies? If so post your evidence.
quote:wtf?!
Originally posted by argyle104:
Notice how Jari-Ankhamun ... Because he knows he has been exposed as the racist he is towards Africans.
quote:Get a clue. I am Salsassin and I never made such a stupid claim. I clearly stated that ancient Egyptians came from the South the West and the East. It is quite obvious the West and the South was of indigenous African stock. While some admixture has occurred, Egypt is still predominantly indigenous. With all its variations. But none of them look like Olmec sculptures.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
quote:Anyone with an functioning rational brain would know that the variation in African Americans is due to the Various peoples of the African region where the Slave Trade took place and through indiginous Native Americans and Europeans...not becuase All of Africa was enslaved. The very thought or mention of such a statement is obsurd to the point its a question of mental insanity.
Originally posted by Chimu:
I see this stupidity is still going on.
African Americans have various phenotypes predominantly because of admixture. Not because they where brought from all parts of Africa and beyond.
Nunn breaks it down quite nicely:
Slave trade numbers by present day regions:
Angola 3,607,020
Ghana 1,614,793
Nigeria 1,406,728
Dem Rep of Congo 759,468
Benin 456,583
Mozambique 382,378
Guinea 350,149
Mali 331,748
Togo 289,634
Senegal 278,195
Guinea Bissau 180,752
Burkina Faso 167,201
Congo 94,663
Malawi 88,061
Sierra Leone 69,607
Cameroon 66,719
Ivory Coast 52,646
Madagascar 36,349
Gabon 27,403
Gambia 16,039
Tanzania 10,834
Liberia 6,790
Zambia 6,552
Cen African Republic 2,010
South Africa 1,944
Uganda 900
Chad 823
Sudan 615
Zimbabwe 554
Mauritania 417
Kenya 303
Namibia 191
Niger 133
Equatorial Guinea 11
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/4134/1/MPRA_paper_4134.pdf
You can tell immediately where the population concentrations are that would affect African American phenotypes:
But African Americans have varied levels of European contributions
And Afro Latinos have even more admixture:
Which explains much of the variation that replicates features from other parts of Africa and beyond.
Including replication of many features that exist already in tropical indigenous American populations that show no admixture whatsoever.
Krenak, Kaingang, Boticudos, Fuegeans, Mayas, Huichol, etc are all genetically sampled populations that show many members with broad facial features, but are clearly indigenous and show no evidence of African admixture. Thus invalidating the claim that their broad features are somehow the product of admixture and not of localized evolution.
Again, Clyde et al need to address these videos before talking so much trash:
Untold Black History?: Why Olmec were Indigenous Americans, not African. Part 1.
Untold Black History?: Why Olmec were Indigenous Americans, not African. Part 2.
For Afrocentrics claiming Olmecs
quote:I never made an assertion that the Olmecs were Egyptians........
Originally posted by Chimu:
quote:Get a clue. I am Salsassin and I never made such a stupid claim. I clearly stated that ancient Egyptians came from the South the West and the East. It is quite obvious the West and the South was of indigenous African stock. While some admixture has occurred, Egypt is still predominantly indigenous. With all its variations. But none of them look like Olmec sculptures.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
Salsassin, since you seem to have this belief that Ancient Egyptians weren't indigenous East Africans.
quote:^^^Salsassin, are you still going around thinking "Super Negroid" was giving implications on facial structure? Or that Ancient Egyptians weren't "black Africans"?
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:LOl, is that the same salsassin from youtube who thinks this guy is indigenous to Africa, and would have no non-African admixture? The one who believes Ancient Egyptians also looked this??
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
re: jamie/Bernard/salsassin/etc. - You Great Deciever ....You.
quote:
salsassin writes:
Wrong. They have been mentioned as "super negroid" as stating that their faces have evolved farther in the direction that Negroid faces would go if the continued in the same pattern. Hence thry are not negroid. But that is irrelevant. They are not Black Africans, nor have they ever been considered as such. Negroid is a bone structure. Black is a skin tone or ethnic description. They are not interchangeable. The San have never belonged to a Black ethnic group, nor are they dark skinned, And they live in desert territiories out in the open. SO you are wrong there as well. As stated before, the San are in the same latitude distance from the Equator as North Africans. North Africans have shown Caucasoid (Not White) featres since the Pleistocene. They have been described as heterogenous in their skin tones. You claimed light skin could not exist in Africa. The San are ample evidence that they can without admixture. Thus, they corroborate the light skin in North Africans as a similar environmental capacity.
quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]re: jamie/Bernard/salsassin/etc. - You Great Deciever ....You.
quote:And your evidence that he has admixture such that it would affect his phenotype is where? LOL Light skin to that degree exists in the same latitude in South Africa. Even lighter people. The San. And skull shapes like that have been seen since the late Pleistocene. Erroneously called Caucasoids. So do you have a point? Go look up what the isolated Guanches looked like.
LOl, is that the same salsassin from youtube who thinks this guy is indigenous to Africa, and would have no non-African admixture? The one who believes Ancient Egyptians also looked this??
quote:Super Negroid has been used to refer to different things by different anthropologists. Groves and Bulbeck used it to describe the further evolution of the San from the stereotype of the Negroid skull. Cranimetrics
^^^Salsassin, are you still going around thinking "Super Negroid" was giving implications on facial structure? Or that Ancient Egyptians weren't "black Africans"?
quote:Nice try. I clearly was speaking of the KhoiSan. Try again.
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
^^^Wrong, again. Don't try to retract now either, like you were talking about another study. The "super Negroid" was used in terms of body proportion, that is the same study I posted to you before. Now you know how to read a lil better so you realize it is reference towards body proportions. Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans (elongated). Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of most Africans........
quote:Nice try. You will have to do better than that. Read the part of West Africa, elongated types and it has Moors.
That Moroccan is not an extremely tropically adapted individual, does not fit into the elongated Africans. Most likely not even tropically adapted, let alone extremely tropically adapted. You're fooling no one.
quote:Nice try by you, but I was speaking about Ancient Egyptians being termed super Negroid for their extremely tropically adapted body plans, that the values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations. Like I said, that Morrocon does not have longer limbs than many African populations, sorry.
quote:Nice try. I clearly was speaking of the KhoiSan. Try again.
Originally posted by Chimu:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
^^^Wrong, again. Don't try to retract now either, like you were talking about another study. The "super Negroid" was used in terms of body proportion, that is the same study I posted to you before. Now you know how to read a lil better so you realize it is reference towards body proportions. Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans (elongated). Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of most Africans........
quote:Feel free to show through measurements, that the Moroccan does not have similar proportions.
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Nice try by you, but I was speaking about Ancient Egyptians being termed super Negroid for their extremely tropically adapted body plans, that the values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations. Like I said, that Morrocon does not have longer limbs than many African populations, sorry.
quote:Nice try. I clearly was speaking of the KhoiSan. Try again.
Originally posted by Chimu:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
^^^Wrong, again. Don't try to retract now either, like you were talking about another study. The "super Negroid" was used in terms of body proportion, that is the same study I posted to you before. Now you know how to read a lil better so you realize it is reference towards body proportions. Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans (elongated). Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of most Africans........
Elongated Africans
quote:You can quote all you want: Elongated Africans exhibit brachial and crural indices which show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations.
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
The evidence is the fact that Elongated Africans exhibit brachial and crural indices which show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations. That Moroccon's (you posted) limbs are not elongated and do not compare sorry, not even to regularly tropically adapted Africans. Please post this information which says the Moroccan in your picture is an Elongated African as described by hiernaux.....??
quote:Key points: They used a stereotyped Negro proportion chart vs a White one. Racialism at it's best. No assumption of other body types.
Predynastic egyptian stature and physical proportions
G. Robins
Abstract An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using Trotter &Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published by Trotter &Gleser. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic, proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed «super-negroid».
quote:Sounds like she was saying that Egyptians had less of an African body plan at first and slowly increased their likeness to African body plans.
The ancient Egyptians have been described as having a “Negroid” body plan (Robins, 1983). Variations in the proximal to distal segments of each limb were therefore examined. Of the ratios considered, only maximum humerus length to maximum
ulna length (XLH/XLU) showed statistically significant change through time. This change was a relative decrease in the length of the humerus as compared with the ulna, suggesting the development of an increasingly African body plan with time. This may also be the result of Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample from Gebelein.
quote:Prove it, so far you posted a short limbed ligtskinned Arab looking Moroccan. Who doesn't fit an elongated African tropical body plan.
Many Moroccans have the elongated bodies that would fall under such descriptions,
quote:You love that true negroid notion don't you?
Chimu writes:
and yet they would not be described as Negroid craniometrically.
quote:Yes she said, the MK(middle Kingdom) might have represented a Nubian population, but guess what, they found no differences in body proportions, from pre-dynastic throughout the New Kingdom in this study, which implicates that all groups tested were extremely tropically adapted, so what does that tell you? From Pre-Dynastic up until Roman times there was an continuity, do you understand what continuity is?
Sounds like she was saying that Egyptians had less of an African body plan at first and slowly increased their likeness to African body plans.
quote:Do you also understand that pre-dynastic Badarians also closely resembled Nubians from Kerma according to anthropological studies?
No significant differences were
found in either index through time for either sex.
The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians
had the “super-negroid” body plan described by Robins
(1983). The values for the brachial and crural
indices show that the distal segments of each limb
are longer relative to the proximal segments than in
many “African” populations (data from Aiello and
Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7
(a plot of population mean femoral and tibial
lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early
Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae
than predicted from femoral length. Despite these
differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.
quote:Lol ok, so you're saying all kinds of body plans should be included when testing tropically adapted individuals? Which populations should be tested? Are Europeans tropically adapted, or cold adapted? What populations are tropically adapted? Then tell me which population you mentioned is from Africa? What are the nearest tropical zones to Egypt?
They used a stereotyped Negro proportion chart vs a White one. Racialism at it's best. No assumption of other body types.
quote:Since your source lacks historical facts and relies on racial pseudoscience transfered to history which basically pseudohistory.
I see this stupidity is still going on.
African Americans have various phenotypes predominantly because of admixture. Not because they where brought from all parts of Africa and beyond.
quote:Neither does this modern day Moroccan represent ancient Morroccan people, let alone ancient Egyptian people. We know that there was historical gene flow into North Africa both Maghreb (Northwest Africa) as well as northeast Africa (Egypt).
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
That Moroccan is not an extremely tropically adapted individual,...
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
quote:Nice try.
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Prove it, so far you posted a short limbed ligtskinned Arab looking Moroccan. Who doesn't fit an elongated African tropical body plan.
Many Moroccans have the elongated bodies that would fall under such descriptions,
The proximal segment consists of a single long bone (the humerus in the forelimb, the femur in the hind limb) in other words runs from the shoulder to the elbow. This long bone in the elongated African, is longer than many African population, note the length of the proximal segments on this your Moroccan and this actual Elongated African.
^^Who is also NOT an elongated extremely tropical adapted African.
quote:It is an arbitrary parameter created by racialists. But if one side uses it, I will make sure they stick to those parameters. In reality humanity has a phenotype diversity that is on a continuum.
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:You love that true negroid notion don't you?
Chimu writes:
and yet they would not be described as Negroid craniometrically.
quote:Your point. All I need to see is the date of the study. Racialist studies that were crude at best. If you are going to go by arbitrary parameters at least have the most modern data out there. By the way, at least you could have quoted what specific features they were considering "negroid" Was it body type or craniofacial parameters.
The Cambridge History of Africa (Hardcover)
by J. D. Fage (Editor)
Cambridge University Press (March 30, 1979)
p.69
Skeletal remains from the Kenya Rift previously considered as 'Afro-Mediterranean' or 'Caucasoid' have now been shown to group with African Negro samples. They date within the first millennium BC and, on physical characteristics, it is suggested that they may be of proto-Nilotic stock. But it is necessary to also make comparisons with Cushitic speakers, since burials found recently in association with a Kenya Capsian-like industry from Lake Besaka in the Ethiopian Rift, dating probably to c. 5000 BC, also show negroid features, and linguistic evidence indicates long history for Cushitic in Ethiopia.
quote:Wrong. She specifically stated the earlier populations were not as tropically adapted. And she specifically stated two of the populations had smaller measurements. Furthermore she did not study delta populations like that of Faiyum.
Yes she said, the MK(middle Kingdom) might have represented a Nubian population, but guess what, they found no differences in body proportions, from pre-dynastic throughout the New Kingdom in this study, which implicates that all groups tested were extremely tropically adapted, so what does that tell you? From Pre-Dynastic up until Roman times there was an continuity, do you understand what continuity is?
quote:But not of the "super-negroid" type. Many dark skinned populations will have similar measures to that of lighter populations. And ultimately that is what the debate is about. The only reason why you care about the body type is to try to claim that all Egyptians were "Black". But you haven't proven that with this evidence.
Do you also understand that pre-dynastic Badarians also closely resembled Nubians from Kerma according to anthropological studies?
quote:Queen Tiye is known to have been of Nubian Stock. Your point?
James Harris and Edward Wente conducted an x-ray analysis of the New Kingdom royal mummies with the results published in their book X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). Included in the work were cephalograms of Pharaohs of the XVII-XX Dynasties and their queens.
Edward F. Wente - Professor of Egyptology, Emeritus, The Oriental Institute 1155 East 58th Street Chicago, IL 60637 773-702-9539
Dr. James E. Harris, Chairman of the Department of Orthodontics at the University of Michigan, he is also a geneticist and physical anthropologist.
http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/nn/win95_wente.html
"The Elder Lady"
First identified as Queen Tiye
The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.
The Elder Lady(Queen Tiye, the supposed red head) possesses an occipital bun comparable to Mesolithic Nubians. (Nubians, that you render "Negroid") Why is that?
quote:Yes, I email with Chris. That is his take on it. The problem is the assumption that Levantines only migrated once farming was established. The capacity to migrate existed even before that.
Christopher Ehret
"Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa DOES NOT SUPPORT demic diffusion of farming from the Near East. The evidence presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially INCORPORATED Near Eastern domesticates INTO an INDIGENOUS foraging strategy, and only OVER TIME developed a dependence on horticulture. This is inconsistent with in-migrating farming settlers, who would have brought a more ABRUPT change in subsistence strategy. "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were GRADUALLY adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic, placing the proto-Afroasiatic period distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P."
quote:Yes, I have read Keita. It may be. I will await for an desinterested party to confirm his findings though. He can be accused of bias just as much as Loring Brace has when he has found European affiliations in bone structure in ancient Egypt.
"Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans"
quote:What that says to me is that there was a Levantine presence. Levantines are not Europeans. And while the majority of the stock was Indigenous, there was a foreign presence that led to them not being identical.
The Badarians show a greater affinity to indigenous Africans while not being identical. This suggests that the Badarians were more affiliated with local and an indigenous African population than with Europeans. It is more likely that Near Eastern/southern European domesticated animals and plants were adopted by indigenous Nile Valley people without a major immigration of non-Africans. There was more of cultural transfer.
quote:Neither does this modern day Moroccan represent ancient Morroccan people, let alone ancient Egyptian people.[/quote]
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[That Moroccan is not an extremely tropically adapted individual,...
quote:You have yet to prove this. But keep on barking.
This still does not change the FACT that the ancient populations of both areas as well as *all* of North Africa were originally supra-tropically adapted in skeletal build as well as skin color i.e. 'BLACK' Which is what Jaimie is so desperate to deny.
quote:Yeah right. You fraudulently claimed I was saying a medium tone was that of a tropical Native American. Try again pendejo.
LOL Remember when jam-brained Jaimie uselessly argued that the early modern humans that arose in Africa were somehow not black?? Everytime we cited Jablonski we desperately tried to distort her writings until I actually got a direct first-hand quote from Jablonski via e-mail.
quote:According to her, Bantu kept on adapting for dark skin. According to her they were darker than Native Americans. No surprise there. ANd she was not talking about Egypt. Human differentiation was long occurring before that. More of your usual stupidity.
According to her: YES, early modern humans of Africa were black. They had to be to survive the high UV tropical climate in their hairless condition.
quote:Boring. As usual, Clyde relies on new audiences who have not followed the long discussions on Egyptsearch refuting his claims.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Check out my videos on the Mande origin of the Meso-American calendars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w24h-ZTpjso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPckj6p7vuY
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Move it Up.
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quote:You're such a liar. I never argued this calabash was ancient. I only argued that it provides the Mande calendrics.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Boring. As usual, Clyde relies on new audiences who have not followed the long discussions on Egyptsearch refuting his claims.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Check out my videos on the Mande origin of the Meso-American calendars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w24h-ZTpjso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPckj6p7vuY
.
Move it Up.
.
see
{url]http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000857;p=1[/url] and http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000857;p=1
To forestall Clyde's usual dodgy response. Wiener's claims about Mande writing in the Olmec are due to his ignorance of the dates of the Olmec civilization (not his fault-- in 1920 people were not aware of the time depth of Mesoamerican civilizations). Thus, Wiener tried ,erroneously nevertheless, to equate "medieval" Mande symbols to things like the Tuxtla Statuette which is more than a milllenium older.
Of course Wiener claimed that Dogon symbols and Mande writing influenced Olmec writing BUT this is 2012 and we KNOW that Olmec writing was going on at least 1500 years before the "evidence" that Wiener cites.
Similarly, it is absolutely clear in 2012 that the drawing of an English ship on the 3rd calabash establishes that they were manufactured thousands of years AFTER the creation of the Olmec calendar.
Just for icing on the cake, the Mesoamerican calendar had 20 MONTHS not 13 as Weiner and Clyde claim.
quote:I have some old Kikuyu script on calabashes. What type of script is this? Its here along with translation from Scoresby Routledge,'with a prehistoric people,the Agikuyu.'
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:You're such a liar. I never argued this calabash was ancient. I only argued that it provides the Mande calendrics.
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:Boring. As usual, Clyde relies on new audiences who have not followed the long discussions on Egyptsearch refuting his claims.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Check out my videos on the Mande origin of the Meso-American calendars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w24h-ZTpjso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPckj6p7vuY
.
Move it Up.
.
see
{url]http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000857;p=1[/url] and http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000857;p=1
To forestall Clyde's usual dodgy response. Wiener's claims about Mande writing in the Olmec are due to his ignorance of the dates of the Olmec civilization (not his fault-- in 1920 people were not aware of the time depth of Mesoamerican civilizations). Thus, Wiener tried ,erroneously nevertheless, to equate "medieval" Mande symbols to things like the Tuxtla Statuette which is more than a milllenium older.
Of course Wiener claimed that Dogon symbols and Mande writing influenced Olmec writing BUT this is 2012 and we KNOW that Olmec writing was going on at least 1500 years before the "evidence" that Wiener cites.
Similarly, it is absolutely clear in 2012 that the drawing of an English ship on the 3rd calabash establishes that they were manufactured thousands of years AFTER the creation of the Olmec calendar.
Just for icing on the cake, the Mesoamerican calendar had 20 MONTHS not 13 as Weiner and Clyde claim.
As we debated earlier the Olmec were Mande people so it was only natural that they took their calendar with them to Mexico.
Check out my video on the calabash calendar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEWd1dFwFsw
.
quote:Can you try to post the pictures again?
Originally posted by kikuyu22:
[QUOTE]I have some old Kikuyu script on calabashes. What type of script is this? Its here along with translation from Scoresby Routledge,'with a prehistoric people,the Agikuyu.'
Its the only example of gichande I could find.
[img] file:///D:/image0001.jpg [/img]
[img] file:///D:/image0001.jpg [/img]
Its quite recent,1910. Even at this stage it was being forgotten,with only the elderly able to decode it. Scoresby postulates its a vestige of a real alphabet.
quote:IDK whats wrong! I'll pm you tomorrow morning local time.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Can you try to post the pictures again?
Originally posted by kikuyu22:
[QUOTE]I have some old Kikuyu script on calabashes. What type of script is this? Its here along with translation from Scoresby Routledge,'with a prehistoric people,the Agikuyu.'
Its the only example of gichande I could find.
[img] file:///D:/image0001.jpg [/img]
[img] file:///D:/image0001.jpg [/img]
Its quite recent,1910. Even at this stage it was being forgotten,with only the elderly able to decode it. Scoresby postulates its a vestige of a real alphabet.
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