This is topic Khart Haddast And Phoenicians in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Two on-going threads prompted me to open this topic. one a conversation with Osirion and two Altakruri thread on the creamy colored Libyans.

Khart Haddast or Carthage was said to be founded at about 814 B.C by Phoenician colonizers..under a legendary Queen Dido. but what do we know of both civilizations in terms of culture and ethnic origins. were the people biologicially Africans...Eur-Asians..A combination of the two?..and was that reflected in the culture as well?...the simplistic question of simply were they black or white will not do..first a look at the founding fathers of the Carthaginians..the Phoenicians who were they really?


From the very begining as any good Sunday school student knows..the Canaanites the original name of the people was the son of Ham brother of Misriem brother of Kush. Making Canaan the only one of Ham's sons to fall out-side Africa...But wait!! Altakruri will sure to protest giving up any inch of that strip of land on geological grounds for sure on cultural grounds maybe. Lets see what some random cut and paste said on the matter..shall we??

Canaan (Phoenician: , Kana'n, Hebrew: כנען kna-an, Arabic: كنعان Kanaʿān) is an ancient term for a region encompassing modern-day Israel and Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, plus adjoining coastal lands and parts of Jordan, Syria and northeastern Egypt. In the Hebrew Bible, the "Land of Canaan" extends from Lebanon southward across Gaza to the "Brook of Egypt" and eastward to the Jordan River Valley, thus including modern Israel and the Palestinian Territories. In far ancient times, the southern area included various ethnic groups. The Amarna Letters found in Ancient Egypt mention Canaan (Akkadian: Kinaḫḫu) in connection with Gaza and other cities along the Phoenician coast and into Upper Galilee. Many earlier Egyptian sources also make mention of numerous military campaigns conducted in Ka-na-na, just inside Asia.

Various Canaanite sites have been excavated by archaeologists. Canaanites spoke Canaanite languages, closely related to other West Semitic languages. Canaanites are mentioned in the Bible, Mesopotamian and Ancient Egyptian texts. Although the residents of ancient Ugarit in modern Syria do not seem to have considered themselves Canaanite, and did not speak a Canaanite language (but one that was closely related, the Ugaritic language), archaeologists have considered the site, which was rediscovered in 1928, as quintessentially Canaanite.[1] Much of the modern knowledge about the Canaanites stems from excavation in this area. Canaanite culture apparently developed in situ from the Circum-Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex, which in turn developed from a fusion of Harifian hunter gatherers with Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) farming cultures, practicing animal domestication, during the 6,200 BC climatic crisis.[2]
Wiki.

A non Bibicial View.

Archaeologists argue that the Phoenicians are simply the descendants of coastal-dwelling Canaanites, who over the centuries developed a particular seagoing culture and skills.[citation needed] Other suggestions are that Phoenician culture must have been inspired from external sources (Egypt, North Africa etc.), that the Phoenicians were sea-traders from the Land of Punt who co-opted the Canaanite population;[citation needed] or that they were connected with the Minoans,[citation needed] or the Sea Peoples or the Philistines further south;[citation needed] or even that they represent the maritime activities of the coastal Israelite tribes like Dan,[citation needed] who from the Song of Deborah in Judges, are listed as being "amongst their ships.

What they may have looked liked:
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www.africaresource.com/.../
An example of a 19th century view is that of John Denison Baldwin who thought that the ancient Phoenicians were of Cushite or Hamite origin. Speaking of their stupendous architectural remains, he wrote:- The Cushite origin of these cities is so plain that those most influenced by the strange monomania which transforms the Phoenicians into Semites now admit that the Cushites were the civilizers of Phoenicia. “Prehistoric Nations” pg 145.

TV journalist Gerhard Herm asserts that, because the Phoenicians' legendary sailing abilities are not well attested before the invasions of the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC, that these Sea Peoples would have merged with the local population to produce the Phoenicians, whom he says gained these abilities rather suddenly at that time. There is also archaeological evidence that the Philistines, often thought of as related to the Sea Peoples, were culturally linked to Mycenaean Greeks, who were also known to be great sailors even in this period.

The question of the Phoenicians' origin persists. Archaeologists have pursued the origin of the Phoenicians for generations, basing their analyses on excavated sites, the remains of material culture, contemporary texts set into contemporary contexts, as well as linguistics. In some cases, the debate is characterized by modern cultural agendas. Ultimately, the origins of the Phoenicians are still unclear: where they came from and just when (or if) they arrived, and under what circumstances, are all still energetically disputed.
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en.wikibooks.org/.../Phoenicians
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www.carlos.emory.edu/inlay-in-the-form-of-a-w...
Remove frame
Now I am trying to get Images of the Pheonicians before they left or who stayed behind...I'll try for Carthaginian Pics when the time come if any mistake I made please correct me.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Canaan is one of the worlds original civilizations, with the settlement, then city of Jericho, existing since about 9,000 B.C.

By the Middle Bronze Age (2000–1550 B.C.), Amorites/Hebrews who were originally nomads from the desert regions to the east, had penetrated Canaan and were inhabiting the hilly areas around the cities. From these hills, they launched raids and harassment attacks against the cities.

In addition to the Amorites, other invaders included the the Hurrians (the Horites of the Old Testament), who also came to Canaan from the north. The Late Bronze Age (1550–1200 B.C.), was marked by incursions of new Amorite marauders.

As it were, over time the nomadic Amorites had been joined by Amorites who may have previously been in Mesopotamia. So that by now, the total of these Amorites had became the dominant element of the population in canaan.

A Letter from Abdu-Heba of Jerusalem to the Egyptian King.

To the king, my Lord, thus speaks Abdu-Heba, your servant. At the feet of the king, my Lord, seven times and seven times I prostrate myself. What have I done to the king, my Lord? They blame me before the king, my Lord, saying: " Abdu-Heba has rebelled against the king, my Lord ". I am here, as far as I am concerned, it was not my father, nor my mother, who put to me in this position; the arm of the powerful king lead me to the house of my father! Why would I commit a transgression against the king, my Lord.

While the king, my Lord, lives, I will say to the commissioner of the king, my Lord: " Why do you favor the Hapiru and are opposed to the rulers? " And thus I am accused before the king, my Lord. Because it is said: " Lost are the territories of the king, my Lord ". Thus am I calumniated before the king, my Lord! But may the king, my Lord know, that, when the king sent a garrison, Yanhamu seized everything, and... the land of Egypt... Oh king, my Lord, there are no garrison troops here! (Therefore), the king takes care of his land! May the king take care of his land! ! All the territories of the king have rebelled; Ilimilku caused the loss of all the territories of the king. May the king take care of his land!

I repeat: Allow me to enter the presence of the king, my Lord, and let me look into both eyes of the king, my Lord. But the hostility against me is strong, and I cannot enter the presence of the king, my Lord. May the king send garrison troops, in order that I may enter and look into the eyes of the king, my Lord. So certain as the king, my Lord, lives, when the commissioners come, I will say: Lost are the territories of the king. Do you not hear to me? All the rulers are lost; the king, my Lord, does not have a single ruler left. May the king direct his attention to the archers, and may the king, my Lord,send troops of archers, the king has no more lands. The Hapiru sack the territories of the king. If there are archers (here) this year, all the territories of the king will remain (intact); but if there are no archers, the territories of the king, my Lord, will be lost!

To the king, my Lord thus writes Abdu-Heba, your servant. He conveys eloquent words to the king, my Lord. All the territories of the king, my Lord, are lost.



By about 1200 B.C, all of the invasions and wars had started to squeeze the Canaanites. Some of them moved north along the Mediterranean coast, to what is today modern Lebanon. This became known as the "Phoenician culture", a Greek term for these Canaanites who moved north, and developed a new civilization on the coast of what is now modern Lebanon.

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The Phoenicians were active merchants who traded throughout the Mediterranean and established colonies as far away as Spain. The best known of these Phoenician colonies was Carthage, one of the most famous cities of antiquity. It was founded on the north coast of Africa by the Phoenicians of Tyre, in 814 B.C. It is from here, that the great Phoenician general "Hannibal" (his name means - Joy of Baal), will launch his historic wars against Rome.

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Phoenicians are best known, for spreading a system of writing known as the “alphabet” to western civilizations. The Phoenicians were also renowned for their skill in carving ivory.


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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
The Kemetic/ Pheonician connection..due to the Kemites lack of big trees..they imported large amounts of Labanese Pines that they also used for their ships.Infact the very name Pheonician may very well derived from the kemitic word,Fenekhu, which some egyptologist have suggested means wood-chopper.

Pheonician Identity crisis;Renan's first major discovery was a group of stone slabs inscribed with Egyptian hieroglyphs.next he found a large bas-relief potraying what happend to be the Egyptian goddess Hathor,her head adorned with the cows horn sun disk,excatly as she appeeared on Egyptian reliefs. Later excavators at Byblos turned up more in the same vain-Egyptian-style obelisks,a multitude of vessels bearing the insignia of the Egyptian Pharaohs,A magnificent temple of Hathor dating from the 3rd millennium B.C. Indeed everywhere archeologist turned in Phoenicia, they seemed to stumble across the spector of Egypt:

We should not be so surprised to find Babylos so Egyptianized .The city had spent much of it's early history under Egypt's Imperial thumb. At least as early as the 12th dyn.according to Egyptologist David O Conner,Babylos "functioned to some degree as a vassel state of Egypt. It remained so for the next 1000yrs.

The above taken from Black Spark White Fire.

So there you have it the Pheonicians even if they did not originally came from further south which they might have been received such massive influence from Kemet that at one point their culture became almost indistinguishible from that of Kemet.So at the very least we can say the Pheonicians where part African in culture..even before they made the trip to become Carthaginians...and just by casual eyeballing some look very much like their neighbours to the south. However some also look like this.>  - just keeping it real  - So some folks looks like what some West-Asians usually look like...and some looked and dressed like Africans. Not to mention the remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to from the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.
James e Brunson:
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Now that we can safely say that Pheonicia was atleast partly African and partly West Asian in culture,and biologically..lets follow their move to North West Africa and beyond.

Khart Haddast or Carthage was said to be founded at about 814 B.C by Phoenician colonizers..under a legendary Queen Dido who found other people on spot on arrival.

Dido and the founding of Carthage:

Very early in ancient history, Phoenician sailors had visited the far corners of the Mediterranean sea and established commercial relations with the local people. Sidonian Phoenicians had established trading posts in the 16th century B.C. at Utica which is relatively close to where Carthage was later to be established. Their main objective was commercial to compete with their Tyrinian Phoenician brothers who had a colony at Utica. Archaeological evidence of the early settlements have been found. The position of Utica towards Carthage was precisely that of Sidon towards Tyre. It was the more ancient city of the two, and it preserved a certain kind of position without actual power. Carthage and Utica competed, like Tyre and Sidon and they were at one time always spoken of together.

Elissar and her Tyrinian entourage, including her priests and temple maidens of Ashtarte, crossed the length of the Mediterranean in several ships and settled the shores of what's today modern Tunisia. Her expedition came and negotiated with the local inhabitants on purchasing a piece of land. Sailing into the Gulf of Tunis she spied a headland that would be the perfect spot for a city and chose the very site called Cambe or Caccabe which was an ancient Sidonian Phoenician trading post. However, some records indicate that the goddess Tanit (Juno in Latin) indicated the spot were to found the city. The natives there weren't too happy about the newcomers, but Elissar was able to make a deal with their king Japon: she promised him a fair amount of money and rent for many years for as much land as she could mark out with a bull's skin.

The king thought he was getting the better end of the deal, but he soon noticed that the woman he was dealing with was smarter than he had expected. This purchase contained some intrigue while the size of the land was thought not to exceed a "Bull's Hide," it actually was a lot larger then ever thought. The trick she and her expedition employed was that they cutup a bull's hide into very thin which they sewed together into one long string. Then they took the seashore as one edge for the piece of land and laid the skin into a half-circle. Consequently, Elissar and her company got a much bigger piece of land than the king had thought possible. The Carthaginians continued to pay rent for the land until the 6th century BC. That hilltop today is called the "Byrsa." Byrsa means "ox hide." However, there is some confusion over the word; some believe that it refers to the Phoenician word borsa which means citadel or fortress.
phoenicia.org/elissardidobio.html

So has one can see there was no plundering or forcing of the natives off their lands..but what of the natvies themselves?...well they are non other than the so-called Berbers an African people carrying East African male dna and significant Eurisian mtdna..maybe the experts on this board can explain it better than I. so quite possibily they looked like both AlT's creamy colored libyans and the much darker types such as the Taurages and others..so in that sense they would look very similar to the incomming Pheonicians and coin and sculpture beres this out. As to when these Africans pick-up EurAsian mtdna is still being debated.
How they looked From the earliest times>  -  -
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And this type>  - along side type>  -
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from Spain also from spain  -
Berber women today  -

AS you can see they include Eur-Asian types from their very beginning..and this is reflect in all strata of their society...so the question was Charthage African culturally?...the ans is heavely so but not absolutely so. and that goes for biology as well..they started off Afro-EurAisan..in the land of Canaan was dominated by Black/Kemetic culture and Blood for over a 1000yrs..split-off and went to North-West Africa and linked up with an African people who carried an African Culture but had the both Dna form East African Fathers and Eurasian Mothers...again just how and even when that came about is not entirely clear...I Await futher imput from our esteemed geneticist types..post now open for comments and corrections.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Just to round of the modern pics a bit
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Libyans ]
The Sanhadja.  -
Zidane  -
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Brada-Anansi

Nice thread Brada, with the Beatdown of Bigmo plus this thread linking Africa with Phoenicians ES is slowly coming back to it's old revolutionary self.

We must continue to post threads like this and foster the learning of old.

Peace
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
How far south did Carthaginian trade and culture spread. From one of Diop's book he put forth the possibility that atleast one of the ethnic groups
is connected to the Carthiginains..according to Civilization or Barbarism...Finally let us interpret a Senegalese oral tradition to which no attention has been said, and which,in our opinion ,would militate for a Carthaginian presence in antiquity on the Senegalese shores:This would be a strong comfirmation of Hanno's expidition.

It is said that Barka was Ndiadjan Ndiaye's brother and his mother, Farimata Sall,Lam Toro's daughter, was of the peul race of the Belianke.It is from his name, Barka, that came the word "Barka",or "Barak," designating the king of Walo, a region of the Senegal river's estuary,which the Carthigianians sailed(according to the very controversial interpretation of some Roman historical documents)to Bambuk,near Kaarta.There is in this story a constellation of Carthaginian names that may not be of chance; but only well conducted excavations all along the Senegalese river up to Kaarta country could one day confirm this hypothesis, with the discovery of charactically Punic objects.

In fact,Barka is not of Arabic origin; it is Carthiginian and it designates the royalty there where the Carthaginians landed,if they ever came to Senegal.Belianki is a compound term which, in Peul or even the Soninke languages, brakes down as follows: Bel+Nke=the men of Bel or Bal(Punic God).And we know that Bal is still today a proper name of the Tukulors, the ethnic group that lives in the river region above.

Kaarta is pratically the exact term the Romans called Carthago, or Carthage.
according the controversial text Hanno's long and complacted journey,the Carthiginians supposedly left a colony(sixty persons or thirty couples)on cern Island,which is a strip of land near the Senegal River's estuary.The term Belianke,formed in the same manner as Soninke,Malinke,Foutanke,etc;nesseraily precedes Islam and goes back to the sixth century B.C during the time when the cult of Baal was still in place.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
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I know there is other stand in coins for Hanibaal but I perfer this one because of the Indian elephant on side that was he favorite and the he personally rode on. However it is the Barka that I am concerned with..as the above states it was Cathagininian..but actually it is Kemetic..meaning peace?? go see Wally. also as posted earlier that the Pheonicians and their Carthaginian split offs were thoughly Kemetized through-out their history no matter who they started out as.
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our old friend Bes in Punic Ibiza Spain
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Perhaps a best example of what the indigenes of Carthage looked like would be actual Roman frescoes depicting them. Takruri first posted them in the forum last year in a couple of threads. I hope I can find it if Takruri can't.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^^have you found a way to authenticate the coin?
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
DJ

I think I've addressed this ad nauseum (not my
fault there's no search function here as there
is on TNV) and leave this up to the current
generation of posters on this forum. Sorry.

Bru Nansi is performing yoeman's labor in this
thread, continuing the modus of you veterans I
found when I first came here.

I do think I will gather my most salient posts
on all topics and transfer them to TNV even
though the excellent replies and responses will
go missing. I expect and invite alternate opinions
there.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Perhaps a best example of what the indigenes of Carthage looked like would be actual Roman frescoes depicting them. Takruri first posted them in the forum last year in a couple of threads. I hope I can find it if Takruri can't.


 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
No I havn't I first came across those coins in J.A Rogers Book, Nature Knows No Color Line...as a matter of fact there are more than one of these coins..that carries those features..but that is the only one that carries that said features plus the elephant..now mind you there are other coin that do carry the elehpant plus the features of a Eur-Asian looking man on the other side. I think there is more info on the coin in one of the books I have a Numorist?? for give my spelling..that had more info on when the coin was struck...Cannae I think to celebrate his majory victory. the thinking goes who would be more likely to have a coin struck in their honor Patton's tank driver or Patton himself..espesically in an age where image speaks more loudly than the written words the world being mostly illiterate.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Barka may derive from Semitic b*rakha which means
blessing. It in turn may be derived or parallel to the
Egyptic if both arise from from proto-Afrisan.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
AlTakruri wrote;Barka may derive from Semitic b*rakha which means
blessing. It in turn may be derived or parallel to the
Egyptic if both arise from from proto-Afrisan.

Ohh I see so there is more than one source for the name through Afrisan super-language..thanks man. Btw I am going to go over Martin Bernal's book as he said something about that Baal-worship ultimately came from Ethiopia along with the Semetic language i'll have to double check to make sure that's what he said.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Thunder and sex: Min,Pan and BwAZA:

With the possible exception of the Yazidis and the Alawi, in Iraq and Syria,the non-christian or non muslims among the Gurage of South-Central Ethiopia are today the only Semetic speaking "pagans". Among them,Bwaza or Bazo is still worshipped for his arbitary violence and sexual appetite. as a Gurage hymn puts it:

Oh Bwaza,is there a place you do not descend to,
a Keyae(house-hold) you do not visit,where you do not slay father and son Where you do not elope with the mother and daughter?.

Intrestingly,these two apperently contridictory aspects seem to be reflected ethymologicallyin the name Bwaza itself. this comes from a Semetic or Afroasiatic biconsonantal root BZ with many different forms,which the lexicographer David Cohen groups into semantic clusters,split, divide,distribute and inflate,inseminate and abound. In the book of Ruth Boaz was the name of Naomi's kinsman whose association with fertility is shown by his consumation of his marrage to Ruth,on a threshing floor at harvest time in Bethlehem,'House of Bread'. The thundering aspect of Bw.aza is paralleled in the Biblical use of the name Bo.az as the name of one of the pair of pillars placed infront of the temple of Yahweh. Bo.az was presumably also the name of the similar pillars known to have been placed before other Canaanite temples. The pratice of placing free standing pillars in front of temples has a counterpart in the cult of Bw.aza among the Guarage. The priest of Bw.aza called maga- a name that is intrestingly and inexplicably close to the Irainian Magi-distribute for profit small strips of wood,sana,from trees struck by lightning. These are placed onthe ground close to the entrance of a compound or outside a hutan as the anthropologist William Shack puts it,Whereever sana is displayed,it symbolizes that the land and property is blessed and others respect it for fear of Bw.za reprisals.This type of spiritual lightining conductor infront of houses would seem to be a Gurage parallel on a domestic scale to the Bo.az placed in front of temples.The need for protection from this fierce but creative divinity in West Semitic religion can be seen in the Ugaratic hymns and epics of Ba'al,who punishes without mercy while fertiliziting the land and,like a storm tears out and brandishes trees.

Taken from Black Athena.

There you have it the earliest connection between the Lavant the Nile Valley and beyond. These people were carrying an African culture from their very formation...what we think of as West Asian..sometimes were actually African that took on new characteristics.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Bump for Ta-Seti.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
This is more suited to the topic than Egmond's thread which we totally hijacked. sorry Egmond.
 
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
 
Bump
 
Posted by NonProphet (Member # 17745) on :
 
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Carthage unveils 'Young Man of Byrsa'

It took 16 years of intense restoration and research work to put him back together, but a young man from the 6th century BC is now back home in Carthage.

A 19-year-old youth from Carthage is the centrepiece of a first-ever exhibit at the National Museum near Tunis.

A corpse buried on Byrsa Hill, above the Gulf of Tunis, is at the heart of a groundbreaking exhibit that opened Friday (October 15th) at the Carthage Museum.

The story began in 1994 when a tree-planter fell into a grave. French archaeologist Jean-Paul Morel and other researchers determined that the skeleton buried five metres deep on the grounds of the Carthage Museum was that of a young man in the prime of life, aged between 19 and 24 years old.

His bones were more than 2,500 years old. He died sometime in the 6th century BC.

After the surprise discovery, the Tunisian Ministry of Culture transferred the skeletal remains of the ancient Carthaginian to specialised French labs for reconstruction and eventual return to the Carthage Museum in Tunisia.

The re-building process lasted 16 years.

"This is the first time in Arab Maghreb that something like that takes place, i.e. re-constituting and re-creating a skeleton," Tunisian researcher Nessrine Nasser told Magharebia. "This discovery revives Tunisians' hopes of getting to know one of the aspects of their grandfathers from Carthage."

"This Byrsa youth gives us an idea about how man was at that time," Nasser added.

After the Punic young man came back to Tunisia from the French archaeology lab, he was unveiled at an exhibition. The opening attracted a large audience that ranged from scientists and scholars to journalists, students and local arts figures.

"This discovery is very important for those young people who are looking for clear signs and symbols from their history," said Tunisian theatrical director Rajaa Ferhat.

"This is a beautiful exhibition," said Nejiba, a history student. "I encourage young people to visit it because it tells us about our history, the history of our ancestors and what the Phoenicians were like."

Ziad, an employee in the Ministry of Culture, said: "I took my children with me so that they may see this discovery and tell their colleagues about what they saw."

The return of the Byrsa young man to Carthage Museum has an important economic dimension as well; Tunisia's economy relies heavily on tourism.

"The impact on cultural tourism is very important," said Habib Ben Youness, a director of Tunisia's Institute of Heritage. After all, he added, "the re-constitution of a person by 95% is a very rare thing".

To promote this discovery, the Tourism Ministry has launched a large-scale publicity campaign in Europe and at regional hotels, Ben Youness said.

"We're now preparing for the New Year's Eve and are waiting for foreign tourists who will come to discover this young man," he added.

Culture Minister Abd Raouf Basti said that the exhibition demonstrates "the use of all modern and advanced methods in reviving this heritage and using it for the promotion of cultural tourism".

"The exhibition will be good for business," said Mohammed Ali, a young man who works at one of the many stores near the museum that sell archaeological souvenirs.

Another local, Nizar, smiled when he described the "honourable guest," i.e. the Byrsa young man. "I haven't seen this intensive flow of visitors for years," he said. "I hope that trade will see more activity in this area."

"I think they should make small models of that young man who has been re-constituted," said Jalal, the owner of a souvenir store next to the museum. "I think visitors would love it."

Admission to the Carthage Museum is free for students under age 25 who want to see the Byrsa youth, the gems, scarabs, amulets and other items found in his tomb, and a film about how he was "reassembled" after thousands of years. The exhibit runs until March.

By Mona Yahia for Magharebia in Tunis – 21/10/10


The man from Byrsa has been rebaptised Ariche -- meaning the desired man -- at the initiative of Culture Minister Abderraouf Basti, who inaugurated the exhibition.

Ariche has regained an almost living human appearance very close in physiognomy to a Carthaginian of the 6th century B.C. after a dermoplastic reconstruction undertaken in Paris by Elisabeth Daynes, a sculptor specialising in hyper-realistic reconstructions.

"He comes back to us thanks to scientific rigour, notably that of paleo-anthropology and forensic medicine, but also the magic of art, that of Elisabeth Daynes, who knows how to bring many faces back from the distant past," Sebai said.

Dermoplastic reconstruction is based on a scientific technique that enables experts to restore the features of an individual with 95 percent accuracy, though some aspects, such as the colour of the eyes and the hair remain partially subjective, she added.

"We can clearly see that this exceptional witness to Carthage in the Punic era is a Mediterranean man, he has all the characteristics," noted Sihem Roudesli, a paleo-anthropologist at the Tunisian National Heritage Institute.

"I hope that like his contemporaries, legendary sailors and bringers of civilisation, this young man can travel across the seas to bear witness on other continents to the greatness of Carthage ," Menat said.

Repatriated on September 24, Ariche will be on show at Byrsa until the end of March 2011 when he will travel to Lebanon, the land of the Phoenicians who founded Carthage , for an exhibition at the American University of Beirut.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003696;p=1#000016

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101028/sc_afp/tunisiafrancearchaeologyhistory_20101028060104

http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/features/2010/10/21/feature-02
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
 -  -
@ Nonprophet
Now do you understand that this was discussed here before and so was a shock to no one?as no one denied that his phenotype/genetics were amosgst Carthaginians and others in Northern Africa and the Lavent,all without claiming the darker broad featured types were forigners or of slave decent in that part of the world or even some kind of marginal minority?.
Both types were linked genetically and and culturally and so were not separated from each other like moderns tried to do claiming one as authentic but not the other
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Not unlike those two idiots above one nation one family one culture.

Posted above
quote:
So has one can see there was no plundering or forcing of the natives off their lands..but what of the natvies themselves?...well they are non other than the so-called Berbers an African people carrying East African male dna and significant Eurisian mtdna..maybe the experts on this board can explain it better than I. so quite possibily they looked like both AlT's creamy colored libyans and the much darker types such as the Taurages and others..so in that sense they would look very similar to the incomming Pheonicians and coin and sculpture beres this out. As to when these Africans pick-up EurAsian mtdna is still being debated.

 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
Dermoplastic reconstruction is based
on a scientific technique that enables
experts to restore the features of an
individual with 95 percent accuracy,



Really now? There is something fishy
about this "article". The claim about
"dermoplastic reconstruction" and
alleged "95% accuracy" is unsupported.
A Google Search re dermoplastic reconstruction" could bring up little
credible in support of this spectacular
"95% accuracy." Most of what comes
up, is a retread of the Tunisian article
above.. suggesting that the claim is based
on little more than the assertion of the
"journalist" - another piece of
disinformation put out as "news"... and
then cited and recited as if it were "fact".


"We can clearly see that this
exceptional witness to Carthage in the
Punic era is a Mediterranean man, he has
all the characteristics," noted Sihem
Roudesli, a paleo-anthropologist at the
Tunisian National Heritage Institute.


Really? From whence was this
"exceptional witness" to Carthage, the
so-called "Mediterranean man?" Exactly
what this "man" is and what
"Mediterranean" might be in this case is
not defined. In fact, Carthage was a
mixed bag of people from the Levant and
people from Northern Africa, including
Libya. In its mature stages, most of
Carthaginian civilization's people were
born in Africa, not in Europe or the
"Middle East." (Goldsworthy 2001). The
fuzzy "mediterranean man" concept
perhaps hopes to appropriate some of
ancient Carthage's glory and tie in in with
Europe in some way, but it conceals
some shaky ethnic assumptions and
wishful thinking - like the reputed
"Hamite" migrants to the Nile Valley of
popular lore.. The picturein Carthage
is much more complex as laready documented in numerous ES threads...
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^I prefer to put it more sufficiently:

Albino boy Dreaming, and creating lies to fit his dream.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -  -  -
^^you have to be suspicious they broke the nose off
 
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
 
I don't get the point of that Bust, Brada makes it clear Carthage was a Mixed Race society..
 
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
 
LMAO, Non Prophets Is nothing but Mathilda's errand boy, A Eurocentric flunkie.

Carthage was mixed race with blacks and white meds and all in between.

 -  -  -
 -

Bertholon and Chantre (1913)noted non- Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating. Daniels (1970) reported that pre- and post-Roman Gara- mantian remains from southern Libya were Mediterranean. Negroid. and hybrid.


To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.

The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century
By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet
pp. 21-22


In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.

 -  -

General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa
p. 427

 -  -

"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference
various writers’ physical descriptions of
the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In
various writers’ physical descriptions of
the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition
to the presence of fair-skinned blonds,
various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian”
groups are described, near the coast and on
the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains.
“Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples
usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly)
hair, are noted in various Greek accounts
and European coinage
(Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux
(1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan”
population affinities in living
Maghrebans as being solely the result of the
medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is
clear that this is not the case. Furthermore,
the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently
not foreign or a caste."

 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Spencer Wells of the Genographic Project has conducted genetic studies that demonstrate that male populations of Lebanon, Malta, Spain, and other areas settled by Phoenicians, share a common m89 chromosome Y type.[9] Male populations in areas associated with Minoan or with the Sea People settlement have completely different genetic markers. This implies that Minoans and Sea Peoples probably did not have ancestral relation with the Phoenicians.[2][3]

In 2004, two Harvard University educated geneticists and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians"[dubious – discuss] as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research.[10] The male populations of Tunisia and Malta were also included in this study. They were shown to share "overwhelming"[clarification needed] genetic similarities with the Lebanese. In 2008, scientists from the Genographic Project announced that "as many as 1 in 17 men living today on the coasts of North Africa and southern Europe may have a Phoenician direct male-line ancestor."

Cyrus the Great conquered Phoenicia in 539 BC. The Persians divided Phoenicia into four vassal kingdoms: Sidon, Tyre, Arwad, and Byblos. They prospered, furnishing fleets for the Persian kings. Phoenician influence declined after this. It is likely that much of the Phoenician population migrated to Carthage and other colonies following the Persian conquest. In 350 or 345 BC a rebellion in Sidon led by Tennes was crushed by Artaxerxes III. Its destruction was described by Diodorus Siculus.

The rise of Hellenistic Greece gradually ousted the remnants of Phoenicia's former dominance over the Eastern Mediterranean trade routes. Phoenician culture disappeared entirely in the motherland. Carthage continued to flourish in North Africa. It oversaw mining iron and precious metals from Iberia, and used its considerable naval power and mercenary armies to protect commercial interests. Rome finally destroyed it in 146 BC, at the end of the Punic Wars.

Following Alexander, the Phoenician homeland was controlled by a succession of Hellenistic rulers: Laomedon (323 BC), Ptolemy I (320), Antigonus II (315), Demetrius (301), and Seleucus (296). Between 286 and 197 BC, Phoenicia (except for Aradus) fell to the Ptolemies of Egypt, who installed the high priests of Astarte as vassal rulers in Sidon (Eshmunazar I, Tabnit, Eshmunazar II).
 
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
 
http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/viewFile/122749/169902

ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of
anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic
growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the
result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this
period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean,
especially Carthage.
This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC
with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of
the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results
seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
 
Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
 
quote:
When Hannibal (in his own, Punic language: Hanba'al, "mercy of Ba'al") was born in 247 BCE, his birthplace Carthage was about to lose a long and important war. The city had been the Mediterranean's most prosperous seaport and possessed wealthy provinces, but it had suffered severe losses from the Romans in the First Punic War (264-241). After Rome's victory, it stripped Carthage of its most important province, Sicily; and when civil war had broken out in Cartage, Rome seized Sardinia and Corsica as well. These events must have made a great impression on the young Hannibal.

He was the oldest son of the Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca, who took the ten-year old boy to Iberia in 237. There were several Carthaginian cities in Andalusia: Gadir ('castle', modern Cádiz), Malkah ('royal town', Málaga) and New Carthage (Cartagena). The ancient name of Córdoba is unknown, although the Punic element Kart, 'town', is still recognizable in its name.

Hamilcar added new territories to this informal empire. In this way, Carthage was compensated for its loss of overseas territories. The Roman historian Livy mentions that Hannibal's father forced his son to promise eternal hatred against the Romans. This may be an invention, but there may be some truth in the story: the Carthaginians had excellent reasons to hate their enemies.

When Hamilcar died (229), Hannibal's son-in-law, the politician Hasdrubal the Fair, took over command. The new governor further improved the Carthaginian position by diplomatic means, among which was intermarriage between Carthaginians and Iberians. Hannibal married a native princess. It is likely that the young man visited Carthage in these years.

http://www.livius.org/ha-hd/hannibal/hannibal.html
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
A question to any of you language experts I read a book a longtime ago in my ship's navy library about Baal and his supposed influence spreading to as far as Japan forgot the title but the author seems to equate Nimrod with Baal (a notion I have since dismissed)but he also claimed that the word Cannibal is etymologically connected to the Baal worship as Canni-Baal is supposed to mean worshiper of Baal or priest of Baal..allowing for the fact the Kids were sacrificed to Baal who devours them in flames, anyone has better or correct information on the matter please post.
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^The Japanese-Nimrod thing sounds dubious but
child sacrifice is documented for Carthaginians
and Phonecians in various eras. Can't see how
Cannibal or Canni-baal claim would be right either
since the Phonecians did not consume their child
victims.

----------------------

links -
Late Carthaginian child sacrifice and sacrificial monuments in their Mediterranean context
Susanna Shelby Brown, Shelby Brown 1991

The Phoenician history of Philo of Byblos: a commentary - Page 244

Albert I. Baumgarten - 1981
Scripture and other artifacts: essays on the Bible and archaeology ... - Page 93

Philip J. King, Michael David Coogan, J. Cheryl Exum - 1994

Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible - Page 1056
2000 - Preview
"Child sacrifice was an essential element of Phoenician religion. Although this ancient rite seems to have been obsolete in the Phoenician motherland, it continued to be practiced vigorously by the Western Phoenicians"


The Phoenicians By Elsa Marston
"In Carthage, child sacrifice appeares to have been a well-established practice. A Greek historian of the first century B.C.E. wrote a lurid account of the sacrifices, describing fiery deaths of infants and young children offered by their parents to Baal-Hammon and Tanit. The charred bones of each sacrifice were put in a small pit, and buried in a special place, with a stele commemorating the offering. In the 1920s archaeologists excavated a place in Carthage that appeares to be proof positive of this practice. In an area known today as the Tophet, thousands of small pots containing tiny burned humnan bones were unearthed. Many thousands more are estimated to be hidden under the houses of the modern town. .. The most notorious example took place in 310 B.C.E. when a Greek Army came close to attacking Carthage itself. Fearing that the gods must be angry with them, the Carthaginians decided to sacrifice around three hundred children, some as old as twelve."

SOurce: The Phoenicians By Elsa Marston pg 59

==========================================


Bertholon and Chantre (1913)noted non- Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating. Daniels (1970) reported that pre- and post-Roman Gara- mantian remains from southern Libya were Mediterranean. Negroid. and hybrid.


To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.

The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century
By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet
pp. 21-22


In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.

- -

General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa
p. 427

- -

"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference
various writers’ physical descriptions of
the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In
various writers’ physical descriptions of
the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition
to the presence of fair-skinned blonds,
various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian”
groups are described, near the coast and on
the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains.
“Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples
usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly)
hair, are noted in various Greek accounts
and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux
(1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan”
population affinities in living
Maghrebans as being solely the result of the
medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is
clear that this is not the case. Furthermore,
the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently
not foreign or a caste."

========================================


Member Rated:
5 Icon 1 posted 06 November, 2010 08:31 PM Profile for Evergreen Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/viewFile/122749/169902

ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of
anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic
growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the
result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this
period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean,
especially Carthage.
This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC
with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of
the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results
seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
 
Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
 
Brada-Anansi wrote:
quote:
but he also claimed that the word Cannibal is etymologically connected to the Baal worship as Canni-Baal is supposed to mean worshiper of Baal or priest of Baal..allowing for the fact the Kids were sacrificed to Baal who devours them in flames, anyone has better or correct information on the matter please post.
Hi Brada, the etymology of cannibal takes us back home to the Caribbean. Apparently the word is derived from a Spanish attempt at prounoucing the name of the "Carib" indians.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Zarahan
quote:
The Japanese-Nimrod thing sounds dubious but child sacrifice is documented for Carthaginians and Phonecians in various eras. Can't see how Cannibal or Canni-baal claim would be right either since the Phonecians did not consume their child victims.
Yeah!! you could be right the closest thing would that the God Baal consumed people..a little OT perhaps deserving a thread on it's own is the Orgiastic rites of Unas in the Pyramid text now given the fact that both the Lavantines and the Carthaginians were religiously influenced by Kemet do you think they took some ideas about sacrifice from Kemet but adding their own slant to it.. I posted earlier that Baal/Bwaza may have been one and the same as Bwaza may have been the fore-runner to Baal and did Baal/Bwaza = Bes??.. came from east Africa perhaps Ethiopia.

Apocalypse
quote:
Hi Brada, the etymology of cannibal takes us back home to the Caribbean. Apparently the word is derived from a Spanish attempt at prounoucing the name of the "Carib" indians.
Thanks that took care of that..
Big^up to both u guys for the info..
 
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^ One weird thing..
As Apocalypse notes, the word cannibal is a
take from the Spanish about the Carib Indians of
the old Caribbean., But in Europe itself,
cannibalism was practiced well into post-medieval
times. Up until the 19th century the sale of
body parts in Europe was not unheard of..

And get this, one major item of consumption in
certain eras was dead bodies from Kemet ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Consuming Grief (2001) by Beth Conklin
 -
 
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
 
.
.

Phoenicians (I think someone noted) were, of course, Canaanite traders. To be added to images of others above, Canaanites / Phoenicians are in the yellow rectangle:

 -
http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-500-00-07.html

.
.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Washington:


Phoenicians (I think someone noted) were, of course, Canaanite traders.

Yes, that is often forgotten when convenient.

Like when one wishes to imply that they were not Black.
 
Posted by rockytsang (Member # 18290) on :
 
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the woodlot Allen could replica rolexes could see a glow on the horizon, cheap cartier watches horizon, easily recognized by any soldier.
 
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
 
I have a question Punic is a language and Carthage is really Khart Haddast this is ethiopic and arabic language in arabic Khartoum Haddash in hebrew is new in Ethiopic its Hadesh Katama new City in arabic its Khart Haddast i want to know is during Hanibal which Hani is a arabic name for males. So is Punic a Semetic language and how is it that arabic was being spoken in Hanibals times
 
Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
 
AswaniAswad wrote:
quote:
I have a question Punic is a language and Carthage is really Khart Haddast this is ethiopic and arabic language in arabic Khartoum Haddash in hebrew is new in Ethiopic its Hadesh Katama new City in arabic its Khart Haddast i want to know is during Hanibal which Hani is a arabic name for males. So is Punic a Semetic language and how is it that arabic was being spoken in Hanibals times
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians (Punic) colonists so therefore they spoke a semetic language.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
^
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
bump for Son Of Ra and Firewall
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Info that we have discovered that was never posted in this thread...

Some of the Africans at Tunis descendants of the Africans at Carthage..

 -
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
I wanted to bump. So people are still not sure about the origins of he Phoenicians?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
I don't get the point of that Bust, Brada makes it clear Carthage was a Mixed Race society..

You are absolutely correct,


Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean
Pierre A. Zalloua, Daniel E. Platt, Mirvat El Sibai, Jade Khalife, Nadine Makhoul, Marc Haber, Yali Xue, Hassan Izaabel, Elena Bosch, Susan M. Adams, Eduardo Arroyo, Ana María López-Parra, Mercedes Aler, Antònia Picornell, Misericordia Ramon, Mark A. Jobling, David Comas, Jaume Bertranpetit, R. Spencer Wells, Chris Tyler-Smith, and The Genographic Consortium


Table S1. Haplogroups and Haplotypes of New Populations Sampled for this Study

http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS0002929708005478.mmc1.pdf
 
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
According to Bantu Hebrew oral history the Phoenician of Sidon and Tyre were Somalian. The Canaanite people were the Amhara, Oromo, Luo, Massai and Tutsi. The Phillistine were Ghanean and Ivoirian. I hope they are right.

 -
Carthagenian General Hannibal

 -
Carthagenian General Hannibal


The city of Carthage
 -

Carthage Empire
 -
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
In the show Spartacus they made some of the Phoenicians look black/mixed.
 -
 -
 -


Though they didn't make the Egyptians black of course. They also made Hannibal from the history channel documentary black/mixed.
 -

I seriously DO NOT get it. How come mainstream media NEVER had any problems with making ancient North African people like the Numidians, Phoenicians/Carthaginians,Moors(yes I know they are not ancient) and Nubians black. But when it comes to the Ancient Egyptians, its a problem.

Why is that???
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Egypt was the ultimate in accomplishment, and most long lived civilization, no other is even close. To admit that Egyptians were Black, is to acknowledge that Blacks are superior.

That is also why the Albinos want to tie "True Blacks/Negroes" to West Africans; they of dubious accomplishment.

Ha,ha,ha: and call the others "Black Caucasians".

Albinos sure are funny - in a sick way.
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
^Good point.
 
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
I think nubia was more of a ultimate accomplishment then egypt.

Of course they had great accomplishments in science,math,technology,government,laws,city development/urban development,military,wealth building,empire building,the arts, writing etc.. in thier own right,but lasted longer,and as a civilization/culture still are here today,still fighting on to be free/or remain free enough.


If nubians were white,believe me there would be more books,plays,tv shows and movies about it then egypt or greece/rome.

Jay spaulding A white AFRICAN HISTORIAN agreed with me years ago about that.

He was first african HISTORIAN i found out from that nubia had palaces as large or larger then football fields.

He said like many other nubian scholars i spoke to over the years that more is to be learned about nubia than ancient egypt.

There is so much to learn from it in the future and history books now and the future will keep changing.


If certain whites can they would try to claim nubia ,a civilization really greater then egypt,the more that is slowly being learn about it.

It had more golden ages and lasted even longer then egypt and culture that is a more more important since they had more direct influence in africa(the original and true center of the world) and was the mother of egypt.

Egypt was the second greatest african civilization after nubia,BUT Whites or europeans can't GIVE THAT UP SO EASY,because unlike nubia it had a more direct influence in europe,and there were whites that came into egypt overtime and became apart of the civilization in large enough numbers in the late period.


So it is easier for them to try to claim egypt and talk more about it and have more of a interest in egypt because unlike nubia,most egyptians are not black anymore after the ancient/or middle ages while nubians are still black,well at least most of them still are.

Another point, there are always going to be folks that claim thier civilization was greater.

There are some scholars who say the greeks had a greater civilization then egypt, etc...

So for europeans/whites it does not really matter if egypt was greater or had more accomplishments then this culture or that culture or not,the real reason they try to claim egypt is because some think it was first civilization(it was not) and it had a direct impact on them out of all the earliest african and early asian civilizations in the world,so that's the real reason they really will fight not to give it up.

By way i do not really care as much if this african or that african civilization influence europe.

What i care for or what interest me the most is what other africans or blacks did to help or influence each other.

That's more important to me,because europe is the not center of the world,to me africa is.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
^great points.
 
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
^great points.

Thank you,i added more comments above.
 
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
quote:
Though they didn't make the Egyptians black of course. They also made Hannibal from the history channel documentary black/mixed.
The "they" here refers, of course, to Hollywood.
Hollywood films on Biblical themes are all produced by Jews who have this myth about being once enslaved in Egypt. They would hardly want to portray their enslavers as Africans(blacks).
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
quote:
Though they didn't make the Egyptians black of course. They also made Hannibal from the history channel documentary black/mixed.
The "they" here refers, of course, to Hollywood.
Hollywood films on Biblical themes are all produced by Jews who have this myth about being once enslaved in Egypt. They would hardly want to portray their enslavers as Africans(blacks).

OMG it all makes sense. Man I an idiot for not even realizing. Of course Jewish people would dislike showing their so called slave masters as African/black.

But there were never any Jews in Egypt. The Pyramids were NEVER built by Jews/slaves...

http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/pyramids-tombs-giza-egypt.htm

But in the film the Prince of Egypt, the Egyptians were portrayed as African/black.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epk7JUofoEY

I always wondered why?

@Firewall

Good post.


Anyways back to Carthage.
 
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
quote:
^Egypt was the ultimate in accomplishment, and most long lived civilization, no other is even close. To admit that Egyptians were Black, is to acknowledge that Blacks are superior.

That is also why the Albinos want to tie "True Blacks/Negroes" to West Africans; they of dubious accomplishment.

Ha,ha,ha: and call the others "Black Caucasians".

Essentially a nonsense statement--the usual stuff from ignorant but always amusingly quixotic mind.

According to historians of all stripes West Africa is hardly an area of--LOL-"dubious accomplishment". The areas of historic Ghana, Mali, and Songhay are all in West Africa. Plus cities like Tombouctou and Kano are well known as international entrepots in African history.

Among the annals of anti-colonial resistance Samory Toure of Guinea stands out among others.

In terms of metallurgy the African Iron Age reached its apogee in West Africa making possible smelting work in iron and other metals. The Benin Bronzes come to mind.

In terms of sheer intellectual work West Africa has easily outdone the rest of Africa. Examples: Blyden, Diop, Nkrumah, Cabral, Camara Lye, Soyinka, Achebe, Hamidou Kane, Sembene Ousmane, Senghor, Cesaire, Fanon, Ayi Kwei Armah, etc. are all of West African origin.

Technology runs the world but in terms of the aesthetic arts West African music forms especially from Mali, Guinea and Senegal are the most prominent worldwide.

Only a person with an unbalanced and idiotic mind would write such nonsense. And given his/her frenetic spamming there could be a degree of OCD.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^He,he,he,he:

Actually Black American music, as created by U.S. Blacks, Caribbean Blacks, and mainland Central and South American Blacks, are the dominant world wide musical forms, nothing else is even close.

Now if you want to argue that the basis of some of it is African, none would disagree. But fundamentally most of it is original music.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
quote:
Though they didn't make the Egyptians black of course. They also made Hannibal from the history channel documentary black/mixed.
The "they" here refers, of course, to Hollywood.
Hollywood films on Biblical themes are all produced by Jews who have this myth about being once enslaved in Egypt. They would hardly want to portray their enslavers as Africans(blacks).

well maybe the KKK could produce a movie with black Egyptians whipping Jews and have a good laugh

And check this out

1999

NAS - I AM


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2013

JAY Z - MAGNA CARTA HOLY GRAIL ALBUM

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Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
quote:
Now if you want to argue that the basis of some of it is African, none would disagree. But fundamentally most of it is original music.
Mike, you must understand what you wrote first.You wrote that on the African panoply West Africa is that part of Africa "of dubious accomplishment"

So eat your own words: the music produced by transplanted West Africans in the Americas are all West Africa derived. The links are alive and well--as in the the case of the CD "Afrocubism: Cuba meets Mali". Download it Mike. Nothing by European blacks there at all--as in all African/black music of the Americas.
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
^

Start with p.1
 


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