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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
Can someone direct me the family tree of Darod; starting from Darod of course.

Thank you.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Hey Yonis2 - Are you one of these "Supposed" Arab Africans too?

Where do you all get these stories - one guy spawned half a country?

Seems to me; if you all spent a little more time farming, herding, building, and generally making yourselves useful; instead of coming up with these founder myths that you think make you special; And trying to find people to rob or kill, then we might all be better off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darod
 
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
Mike,

This is not a subject or topic where you could cite from Bernard Lewis or other Anti-Muslim and Anti-Arab so called 'scholars'.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arwa:
Mike,

This is not a subject or topic where you could cite from Bernard Lewis or other Anti-Muslim and Anti-Arab so called 'scholars'.

It's not anti anything, just what seems to most people "common" sense - See my edit above.
 
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
What makes you an expert on Somali history? Are you at least a Somali or do you speak the language?
 
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
Whose common sense?

I am pretty sure today is the first time you heard the name Darod, and already you make yourself an expert. The only reason we chose to communicate to you, Mike, is that we all know you are just a teenager boy who is about to discover the world.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arwa:
Whose common sense?

I am pretty sure today is the first time you heard the name Darod, and already you make yourself an expert. The only reason we chose to communicate to you, Mike, is that we all know you are just a teenager boy who is about to discover the world.

I am not an expert on Somali history, and you are right, this is the first that I have heard the name Darod.

But I hear about modern Somali almost daily, and that is why I can say with confidence...

Quote: Seems to me; if you all spent a little more time farming, herding, building, and generally making yourselves useful; instead of coming up with these founder myths that you think make you special; And trying to find people to rob or kill, then we might all be better off.

If you want to be treated as respectable people, act like respectable people.

Anarchist and bandits don't make it in my book as respectable people.

Black people INVENTED Civilization - so I am pretty fond of it.
 
Posted by Kaizen (Member # 16969) on :
 
What a colossal idiot you are Mike [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
You admit that today is the first time you heard the name Darod, and you expect respect? You should have at least waited to gain more information before you started you hatred ignorant spam.

If you tried to read real books, then you would know how to act and communicate as a civilized person.

BTW, thanks for exposing were you get your education from. As if Yo! MTV Raps was the sources of African American history.
 
Posted by Kaizen (Member # 16969) on :
 
Get back in the house with your hijab [Big Grin] . You're not ready for the Reality of the gritty world that sorrunds you..

Put your reading glasses on, find a nice cosy corner by the fireplace and disappear into one of your fantasy novels. [Cool]
 
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
I'd love to disappear for eternity into my books, but I don't have the luxury to do that.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
To learn more about Darod you can check out Dierk Lange's, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, the name Darood or Darud among the Somali is due to their relationship to the Mahra and other proto-Arabian tribes.

As Lange says, the "remnants of ancient Canaanite-Israelite cult names, and group identities are widespread among the different Somali clans." p. 261.

Some of these names include Makir (Machir), Rahanwayn (Ru'ayn or Ruhawayn) Wubar (Wabara or Ubar), Yubir and Hubir (Heber), Sama'al or Somala, Ishaq (or Isaac), Magaado(Magdi'el) Afar or Anfar (Aphren) etc., the name Darood is the Mahra or south Arabian and Somali pronunication of the more modern Arabic (Dawud or David).


"Altogether the names and legends of the northern Somali clan-families indicate that their ancestors were familiar with the details of teh biblical genealogical charter as it applied to their specific clan organization before they had left South Arabia." Lange 200 p. 276.

Darud was the name of Mahra towns in southern Arabia as well. The Arabian Mahri claimed to have come from the Kudha'a of Arabia, Himyarites who are the Kaath of Josephus, Kuth of Abyssinian genealogists and Kuhath or Qahith "son of Levi".
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
According to many medieval and modern Islamic historians the Darod clan more than 1/3 of the somalis, desceded from Aqeel ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed(SCW)

"The 9th century Islamic writer, Al- Masudi wrote in his Aquiline book ( the descendants of the prophet Mohammed's young cousin Aqeel Ibn Abu Talib) that several Quraish sub-clans moved to to the city of Jabarta and the Zeila (Somalia) region around the ninth century A.D. Some key sub-clans include Banu Shams, Banu Abd Manaf and Banu Hashim. From the Banu Hashim, many Aquiline settlers lived in Jabarta such as Ahmed Ibn Husein Ibn Ali Al-Jabarti, Ahmed Ibn Omar Al-Zayli and most importantly he mentions the sufi Qadiriyah sheik Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Abdisamad Al-Aqeeyli Al-Zayli who is considered a Sufi saint in Yemen, the father of Darod(Abdirahman) the man most modern Darood have descended from. This sufi sheikh also had other sons -who all carry the surname "Jabarti"- where their tribes can be found in Southern Yemen, Eriteria, and parts of Saudi Arabia".

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1317912

hope that helps
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ This sounds like another Ashraf propaganda for prestige purposes only done so for an entire clan.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Many clans throughout Africa and the Middle East claim descent from Mohammed's family of the Quraish.

On the other hand its probable that some of the Jabarti lineages did originate to some extent since the time of Mohammed from Quraish clans.

Actually, Qadiriyah son of Ismail son of Ibrahim son of Abdisamad sounds a lot like the legendary or ancient Yemenite Qaydhar son of Ismail son of Ibrahim who descends from Abu Shams or Saba and is Isma'il sometimes called the father of Qahtan.

Lange adds "it should be mentioned that Darood claim certain Arab tribes living in the Saudi Arabian province of Asir, in the Yemenite province of Hadramaut, and in northern Oman as their kin. Referring to them by their eponymous ancestor they call them in line with their own designation Darood Ismaaiil, Asiir Ismaaiil and Suri Ismaaiil." p. 261 Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa: African Centered and Canaanite-Israelite Perspectives (2004)

This again links the roots of the name of Darud or Darood with the pre-Arabic speaking Mahri or Mahra or Maheyra and Shahri or Shahara groups of ancient Yemen, Oman and the Asir region (Jizan, Tehama) regions.
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ This sounds like another Ashraf propaganda for prestige purposes only done so for an entire clan.

daroods origin is indisputable his tomp is still resereved in NE somali and jabarti is in yemen, so both historial and physical evidence are aviable. however one ancestor 12k years ago doesnt make one an arab.

Are you familiar with the east african'sand arab's naming system.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:

daroods origin is indisputable his tomp is still resereved in NE somali and jabarti is in yemen, so both historial and physical evidence are aviable. however one ancestor 12k years ago doesnt make one an arab.

Forgive me since I am not too familiar with Somali clan geneology. What I do know is that the Somali clan system like many clan systems in Africa and other parts of the world are more so rooted in social grouping than in actual genetics. Hence, to say that all members of a clan are directly descended from a common ancestor is far-fetched. It is more likely that various families adopted this ancestor or personage or were assimilated by the presumed clan. Also, even if this Darood was an actual living person, if he did indeed exist 12,000 years ago I also doubt that landmark claimed to be his tomb is actually it. Has anyone excavated this so-called tomb of Darood??

quote:
Are you familiar with the east african'sand arab's naming system.
If you are refering to the lineage system in which ones paternal line is traced from father to forefather all the way to the clan or tribal founder, then yes.
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:

daroods origin is indisputable his tomp is still resereved in NE somali and jabarti is in yemen, so both historial and physical evidence are aviable. however one ancestor 12k years ago doesnt make one an arab.

Forgive me since I am not too familiar with Somali clan geneology. What I do know is that the Somali clan system like many clan systems in Africa and other parts of the world are more so rooted in social grouping than in actual genetics. Hence, to say that all members of a clan are directly descended from a common ancestor is far-fetched. It is more likely that various families adopted this ancestor or personage or were assimilated by the presumed clan. Also, even if this Darood was an actual living person, if he did indeed exist 12,000 years ago I also doubt that landmark claimed to be his tomb is actually it. Has anyone excavated this so-called tomb of Darood??

quote:
Are you familiar with the east african'sand arab's naming system.
If you are refering to the lineage system in which ones paternal line is traced from father to forefather all the way to the clan or tribal founder, then yes.

well in somalia clan is social grouping but rather paternal lineage, every one in that particular clan can trace their forefathers all the way to the clan. my grandfather was somali darood and we have written record of our "abtiris" (paternal line). you cant just assume without actuall knowlegde of somalis.

as for the tomb it is not some new found, it is been there since his death and his descendent have been going to his memorial every year for almost 13 handred years. why would we want disturb the dead? just to serve your curiosity.

haylan somalia
 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:

daroods origin is indisputable his tomp is still resereved in NE somali and jabarti is in yemen, so both historial and physical evidence are aviable. however one ancestor 12k years ago doesnt make one an arab.

Forgive me since I am not too familiar with Somali clan geneology. What I do know is that the Somali clan system like many clan systems in Africa and other parts of the world are more so rooted in social grouping than in actual genetics. Hence, to say that all members of a clan are directly descended from a common ancestor is far-fetched. It is more likely that various families adopted this ancestor or personage or were assimilated by the presumed clan. Also, even if this Darood was an actual living person, if he did indeed exist 12,000 years ago I also doubt that landmark claimed to be his tomb is actually it. Has anyone excavated this so-called tomb of Darood??

quote:
Are you familiar with the east african'sand arab's naming system.
If you are refering to the lineage system in which ones paternal line is traced from father to forefather all the way to the clan or tribal founder, then yes.

well in somalia clan is social grouping but rather paternal lineage, every one in that particular clan can trace their forefathers all the way to the clan. my grandfather was somali darood and we have written record of our "abtiris" (paternal line). you cant just assume without actuall knowlegde of somalis.

as for the tomb it is not some new found, it is been there since his death and his descendent have been going to his memorial every year for almost 13 handred years. why would we want disturb the dead? just to serve your curiosity.

haylan somalia his resting place
 -

 -

 -


 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Most historians recognize Darod as a historical figure. For one thing he and his lineage seems to have been mentioned by al Masudi.

Dierk Lange also mentions that although the folklore surrounding Darod and Ishaq seem based on earlier traditions of similar figures in the Koran and Bible they are individuals whose tombs are visited by modern Somalis.

Of Darod and Ishaq it is said "Both Somali clan ancestors are worshipped during pilgrimmages to their tombs.These lie in Northern Somalia 70 km from each other with the tomb of the elder Daarood located further inland and less frequented." p. 260 Ancient Kingdoms of Western Africa
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
To learn more about Darod you can check out Dierk Lange's, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, the name Darood or Darud among the Somali is due to their relationship to the Mahra and other proto-Arabian tribes.

As Lange says, the "remnants of ancient Canaanite-Israelite cult names, and group identities are widespread among the different Somali clans." p. 261.

Some of these names include Makir (Machir), Rahanwayn (Ru'ayn or Ruhawayn) Wubar (Wabara or Ubar), Yubir and Hubir (Heber), Sama'al or Somala, Ishaq (or Isaac), Magaado(Magdi'el) Afar or Anfar (Aphren) etc., the name Darood is the Mahra or south Arabian and Somali pronunication of the more modern Arabic (Dawud or David).


"Altogether the names and legends of the northern Somali clan-families indicate that their ancestors were familiar with the details of teh biblical genealogical charter as it applied to their specific clan organization before they had left South Arabia." Lange 200 p. 276.

Darud was the name of Mahra towns in southern Arabia as well. The Arabian Mahri claimed to have come from the Kudha'a of Arabia, Himyarites who are the Kaath of Josephus, Kuth of Abyssinian genealogists and Kuhath or Qahith "son of Levi".

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 - [/QB
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
I posted those pictures in another thread and they dont all have arab origins, some of them are hawiye, the first girl and last guy are hawiye(no arab links what so ever). since when does one ancestor 13k years ago make some one mixed(for me it is over 40 genations ago).

the beautiful about our cultere( Ethiopia and Somalia) is that it is not all folk tales, but it is supported by historical records as well as hard physical evidences

let me make this clear the tomb are not worshipped, it is forbidden in slam, peaple just cellebrate their memorial
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father.

Where do Caucasoid features originate? Can you perhaps define where and when these features arose specifically and according to whom? Btw not all Somalis and Ethiopians are mixed not even the majority. If you think otherwise prove it!

P.s. the following male also has sharp features but we know his people (Tutsis) have predominately E3a (E1b1a) without any non African admixture so how did this happen Avee? Do tell....if you can, is it magic?
 -
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father.

Where do Caucasoid features originate? Can you perhaps define where and when these features arose specifically and according to whom? Btw not all Somalis and Ethiopians are mixed not even the majority. If you think otherwise prove it!

P.s. the following male also has sharp features but we know his people (Tutsis) have predominately E3a (E1b1a) without any non African admixture so how did this happen Avee? Do tell....if you can, is it magic?
 -

Am from a ´bantu country with a sizable tutsi/ Hima population. To bantu these people are as Alien as horners or arabs. We look at them as foreigners. There is not doubt in my mind that these people do not belong to E3a like west Africans. It is not just their features but their hair texture too. Not to forget their culture. I was surprised when I learned they are not related to horners. Their female tradtional dress is middle eastern/ horn of Africa looking. bantu feel more kinship to nilo-saharans than they do tutsi or bahima as call them in my country. They are aliens. No way can they be of west African stock.
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
I posted those pictures in another thread and they dont all have arab origins, some of them are hawiye, the first girl and last guy are hawiye(no arab links what so ever). since when does one ancestor 13k years ago make some one mixed(for me it is over 40 genations ago).

the beautiful about our cultere( Ethiopia and Somalia) is that it is not all folk tales, but it is supported by historical records as well as hard physical evidences

let me make this clear the tomb are not worshipped, it is forbidden in slam, peaple just cellebrate their memorial

Unless you are jewish most people have a patriarch system. So whether your Arab paternal ancestor lived 13K his blood still runs in your veins. You've kept his name alive all these years go figure.
So how does 80% E1b1b among somalis add up if the darood, biggest group in somalia, descende from an arab?
 
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
Avee, are you really an African? Your talk is not just the way Africans talk.
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Avee, are you really an African? Your talk is not just the way Africans talk.

Most Africans sugar coat things. I don't.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Avee said [/QUOTE]Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans."

 -

But, on the contrary the features of this Somali man except for his hair are typical of early and prehistorical east Africans. The culture of Middle Easterners was first influenced by early East Africans known as Arabs. And the entire region of the Sahel stretching to West Africa has of course been influenced by contact with the Middle East.
The Somalis get their non-African hair mainly from recent Middle Eastern and Yemeni contact over the past 3 centuries. Straight hair, however, has little to do with the peoples like early Yemenites and mostly "jet black" Qureish of Mecca whom the Jabarti's claim descent from nor other Khadar or near black tribes predominant in Arabia until the 15th century.

The narrow elongated facial features of the Fulani, Danakil, Samburu, Somali, etc. have little to do with non-African influence and are found in Elmenteitan skeletons dating back before the historic era and are related to evolution in the desedrt like areas.

Their are very few Africans in the Sahel that are purely African and that is because they originally occupied the neolithci Sahara and north Africa which has had much contact through slavery and settlement with non African peoples. most of these do not have Somali features that includes the Tuareg, Hausa, Teda, Tibbu and even many of the Mande speaking tribes.

Peoples like the Somali and Tuareg get their less than woolly hair mainly from people like the Iraqis Syrians and Turks who have settled up until late times in the area. Their has been recent influence from Iraq in particular in the last few centuries.

 -
El Moran (warrior) of the Samburu
His "sharp" features have little to do with being mixed with being "Caucasoid" as ancient skeletal evidence of Kenyans has proven.

You will in fact rarely see a European with features as "sharp" or refined as many east Africans.

Also, the populations of Arabia were mainly near black and kinky haired people up until several centuries ago.
Quote from the 14th century - “'Red', in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.

According to Richmond Palmer's book, Bornu Sahara and Sudan, Arabia was considered part of Bilad es Sudan or "land of the blacks" by peoples of the North in the early Islamic era - by Syrians like Al Umari - and that is why the earliest Islamic "Moors" who invaded north Africa and Spain from Arabia are referred to as black as melted pitch which is the color of many Somali and Arabians. Early Arabians are described by non-Arabs as jet black and dark brownish black (Akhdar).

Also the Arabs were mostly kinky haired and not straight haired like the slaves of the Arabs were said to have been. As early Arab linguist Ibn Mandur said, "“kinky hair was the hair Arabs had and that lank hair was the hair of the Persian”.

Al Mubarrad born in Basra Iraq said in the 9th century. "The Arabs used to take pride in there darkness and blackness and they had a distaste for a fair skin..."

The Qureish came from a tribe known as Kenanah otherwise called Canaanites. They still live in Arabia and Israel/Palestine and in Israel are still black some as black as jet.


 -
El Moran of the Kenya

The Samburu/Masai, Oromo and Somali and other east Africans do not get their refined features from being "impure Africans."

On the other hand ancient and early Arabs or semites were affiliated with black Africans. Rock art, skeletal and archeological evidence of Arabia and the Syro-ARabian deserts validates this.

 -
Shammar Arabian (a Ru'alla or Ruwalla related tribe)

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Henna bearded man of the Somali (bin Sama'al) of the same stock.

The early Yemenite Rahawiyyin or Ru'wayn (also the tribe in Somalia called Rahawayn or Rahanwayn ) of Himyar and Rawalla or Ru'alla bin An'aes are both descended from an ancient Arabian chief named "Ra'wani" or "el Ar'awi" in later Arab genealogies better known in the west as the Biblical Reu'el, while the name Shammar is obviously the Shammah or Samma son of Reuel of Esau (el Aes). (Genesis 36:17)

Until the 15th century people that looked like Somalis and other east Africans predominated in Arabia and the region of western Yemen extending north toward Ta'if and Mecca was known as Kush, Kenaan, Siyan (Zion) and Yishar-el before these became place names in Syria. (See the Bible Came from Arabia by Kamal Salibi).

Al Sama and Sama'al are names of an ancient Arabian clan of the Sabaeans (batn Himyar) mentioned in Islamic Yemenite sources and earlier sources. (Mad'aj p. 91) The names may very well refer to the same tribe and be the root of the name Sam whom the Somaali (or bin Sama'al) and Shammar claim descent from.

Ibn Rabbu of 9th c. Cordoba quoted an Madhij of the clan of El Nakha in Yemen and Hadramaut saying one of the 7 rare things in this world was a fair-skinned Arab and that a "fair-skinned" Arab was "inconceivable".

Modern dark-skinned descendants of ancient Arabians like the Qarra and Mahra of Oman told colonial observers they originated in Africa.

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Yafi- Yahar members of the Yemen

Early Islamic Yemenite sources say they belonged to the Ru'ayn Himyarites of Arabia (see Abd'ul Muhsin Mad'aj. The Yemen in Early Islam, 1988. p.91)
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
Thanks dana marniche , the original inhabitatents of the arabian peninsula were racially no differents than the cushites of east africa, however I dont agree with the Iraqi and ottomon input in somalia and ethiopia. ottoman settlers around 14-16th century can be found in harar ethiopia and along southern coast of somali(specially merca), where Haplogroup J* is prominent and they only make less than 1% of the population of the region.

here is pure arab rashida in eritrea (migrated from saudi arabia)
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African eritreans

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 -

 -

and a somali
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atleast to me I dont see any racial differences
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father.

Where do Caucasoid features originate? Can you perhaps define where and when these features arose specifically and according to whom? Btw not all Somalis and Ethiopians are mixed not even the majority. If you think otherwise prove it!

P.s. the following male also has sharp features but we know his people (Tutsis) have predominately E3a (E1b1a) without any non African admixture so how did this happen Avee? Do tell....if you can, is it magic?
 -

Am from a ´bantu country with a sizable tutsi/ Hima population. To bantu these people are as Alien as horners or arabs. We look at them as foreigners. There is not doubt in my mind that these people do not belong to E3a like west Africans. It is not just their features but their hair texture too. Not to forget their culture. I was surprised when I learned they are not related to horners. Their female tradtional dress is middle eastern/ horn of Africa looking. bantu feel more kinship to nilo-saharans than they do tutsi or bahima as call them in my country. They are aliens. No way can they be of west African stock.
Hey I understand what you're saying, pretty much that you're not up to par with the knowledge in pertinence to African diversity and human diversity altogether...Broad faced Africans adapted to a hot and humid climate while thinner longer faced Africans adapted to a hot and dry climate, this is the reason for the differences in phenotype you see, Y-dna and Mtdna does not equate with phenotypical features at all.

#1) I asked you where do Caucasian features originate? No answer, you failed queston 1.

#2) I asked you if you can explain where and when Caucasian features arose and according to whom? Again, no answer, failed question number 2.

#3) I informed you that not all Somalians and Ethiopians were mixed and in fact not even the majority are mixed, I then asked if you were able to prove otherwise? This went unanswered as well. Failed to answer question # 3.

#4) I showed you a Tutsi who possesses those same sharp features who belongs predominantly to the Y-chromosome E1b1a (E3a) with no outside non African admixture yet as can see he possesses those same sharp features. I asked you to explain how this could be, and again no logical answer, You've failed the test....
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Avee said

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans."

 -

But, on the contrary the features of this Somali man except for his hair are typical of early and prehistorical east Africans. The culture of Middle Easterners was first influenced by early East Africans known as Arabs. And the entire region of the Sahel stretching to West Africa has of course been influenced by contact with the Middle East.
The Somalis get their non-African hair mainly from recent Middle Eastern and Yemeni contact over the past 3 centuries. Straight hair, however, has little to do with the peoples like early Yemenites and mostly "jet black" Qureish of Mecca whom the Jabarti's claim descent from nor other Khadar or near black tribes predominant in Arabia until the 15th century.

The narrow elongated facial features of the Fulani, Danakil, Samburu, Somali, etc. have little to do with non-African influence and are found in Elmenteitan skeletons dating back before the historic era and are related to evolution in the desedrt like areas.

Their are very few Africans in the Sahel that are purely African and that is because they originally occupied the neolithci Sahara and north Africa which has had much contact through slavery and settlement with non African peoples. most of these do not have Somali features that includes the Tuareg, Hausa, Teda, Tibbu and even many of the Mande speaking tribes.

Peoples like the Somali and Tuareg get their less than woolly hair mainly from people like the Iraqis Syrians and Turks who have settled up until late times in the area. Their has been recent influence from Iraq in particular in the last few centuries.

 -
El Moran (warrior) of the Samburu
His "sharp" features have little to do with being mixed with being "Caucasoid" as ancient skeletal evidence of Kenyans has proven.

You will in fact rarely see a European with features as "sharp" or refined as many east Africans.

Also, the populations of Arabia were mainly near black and kinky haired people up until several centuries ago.
Quote from the 14th century - “'Red', in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.

According to Richmond Palmer's book, Bornu Sahara and Sudan, Arabia was considered part of Bilad es Sudan or "land of the blacks" by peoples of the North in the early Islamic era - by Syrians like Al Umari - and that is why the earliest Islamic "Moors" who invaded north Africa and Spain from Arabia are referred to as black as melted pitch which is the color of many Somali and Arabians. Early Arabians are described by non-Arabs as jet black and dark brownish black (Akhdar).

Also the Arabs were mostly kinky haired and not straight haired like the slaves of the Arabs were said to have been. As early Arab linguist Ibn Mandur said, "“kinky hair was the hair Arabs had and that lank hair was the hair of the Persian”.

Al Mubarrad born in Basra Iraq said in the 9th century. "The Arabs used to take pride in there darkness and blackness and they had a distaste for a fair skin..."

The Qureish came from a tribe known as Kenanah otherwise called Canaanites. They still live in Arabia and Israel/Palestine and in Israel are still black some as black as jet.


 -
El Moran of the Kenya

The Samburu/Masai, Oromo and Somali and other east Africans do not get their refined features from being "impure Africans."

On the other hand ancient and early Arabs or semites were affiliated with black Africans. Rock art, skeletal and archeological evidence of Arabia and the Syro-ARabian deserts validates this.

 -
Shammar Arabian (a Ru'alla or Ruwalla related tribe)

 -
Henna bearded man of the Somali (bin Sama'al) of the same stock.

The early Yemenite Rahawiyyin or Ru'wayn (also the tribe in Somalia called Rahawayn or Rahanwayn ) of Himyar and Rawalla or Ru'alla bin An'aes are both descended from an ancient Arabian chief named "Ra'wani" or "el Ar'awi" in later Arab genealogies better known in the west as the Biblical Reu'el, while the name Shammar is obviously the Shammah or Samma son of Reuel of Esau (el Aes). (Genesis 36:17)

Until the 15th century people that looked like Somalis and other east Africans predominated in Arabia and the region of western Yemen extending north toward Ta'if and Mecca was known as Kush, Kenaan, Siyan (Zion) and Yishar-el before these became place names in Syria. (See the Bible Came from Arabia by Kamal Salibi).

Al Sama and Sama'al are names of an ancient Arabian clan of the Sabaeans (batn Himyar) mentioned in Islamic Yemenite sources and earlier sources. (Mad'aj p. 91) The names may very well refer to the same tribe and be the root of the name Sam whom the Somaali (or bin Sama'al) and Shammar claim descent from.

Ibn Rabbu of 9th c. Cordoba quoted an Madhij of the clan of El Nakha in Yemen and Hadramaut saying one of the 7 rare things in this world was a fair-skinned Arab and that a "fair-skinned" Arab was "inconceivable".

Modern dark-skinned descendants of ancient Arabians like the Qarra and Mahra of Oman told colonial observers they originated in Africa.

 -
Yafi- Yahar members of the Yemen

Early Islamic Yemenite sources say they belonged to the Ru'ayn Himyarites of Arabia (see Abd'ul Muhsin Mad'aj. The Yemen in Early Islam, 1988. p.91)
[/QUOTE]

Good post and references...
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Avee

What you fail to understand is that Tutsis are every bit West African as the Hutu Bantus. In fact Tutsis ARE BAntu.

Whatever case you can make for there features or hair, They are more related to other West Africans then East.

To me, the Tutsis are no different then the Fulani. Who are Another West African group with fine features yet have E3a at 100%.

What bothers me is how Africans can look at other Africans and find excuses to hate and seperate.

Unity is the Key.

Peace
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
If as the reference says that Arabs that looked like Africans were the dominate type in Arabia up until the 15th century, Then the question that needs to be asked is what happened?

Are we to believe that there was a ethnic cleansing of these people?

Does Hatred of Dark skin factor into this?

Peace
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
If as the reference says that Arabs that looked like Africans were the dominate type in Arabia up until the 15th century, Then the question that needs to be asked is what happened?

Are we to believe that there was a ethnic cleansing of these people?

Does Hatred of Dark skin factor into this?

Peace

this is where the recessive genes comes in, they were "dark skin caucasians" (cant think of better term atm) to begin with and inter marrying with turks and other light skinned arabised asians didnt help preserving their dark skin. if you ever been to Saudi Arabia and yemen you'd know that they are darker and more negriod than say Iraqi or Palestine.

here some visuals to help you understand better, first one somali/russian, second one somali/philippino. after just one genaration almost no african traits left.

 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Many clans throughout Africa and the Middle East claim descent from Mohammed's family of the Quraish.

On the other hand its probable that some of the Jabarti lineages did originate to some extent since the time of Mohammed from Quraish clans.

Actually, Qadiriyah son of Ismail son of Ibrahim son of Abdisamad sounds a lot like the legendary or ancient Yemenite Qaydhar son of Ismail son of Ibrahim who descends from Abu Shams or Saba and is Isma'il sometimes called the father of Qahtan.

Lange adds "it should be mentioned that Darood claim certain Arab tribes living in the Saudi Arabian province of Asir, in the Yemenite province of Hadramaut, and in northern Oman as their kin. Referring to them by their eponymous ancestor they call them in line with their own designation Darood Ismaaiil, Asiir Ismaaiil and Suri Ismaaiil." p. 261 Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa: African Centered and Canaanite-Israelite Perspectives (2004)

This again links the roots of the name of Darud or Darood with the pre-Arabic speaking Mahri or Mahra or Maheyra and Shahri or Shahara groups of ancient Yemen, Oman and the Asir region (Jizan, Tehama) regions.

Let's not confuse mythology or folk traditions with actual scientific evidence. We know through genetics that while the Somali populace has paternal lineages there are predominantly of African origin there are indeed Eurasian lineages present albeit at minimal frequencies. However such lineages do NOT at all correlate to the actual clan network of the Somali people.

By the way, as for south Arabian groups like the Mahra and Qahra, were they not a matrilineal people once as opposed to patrilineal??

quote:
Most historians recognize Darod as a historical figure. For one thing he and his lineage seems to have been mentioned by al Masudi.

Dierk Lange also mentions that although the folklore surrounding Darod and Ishaq seem based on earlier traditions of similar figures in the Koran and Bible they are individuals whose tombs are visited by modern Somalis.

Of Darod and Ishaq it is said "Both Somali clan ancestors are worshipped during pilgrimmages to their tombs.These lie in Northern Somalia 70 km from each other with the tomb of the elder Daarood located further inland and less frequented." p. 260 Ancient Kingdoms of Western Africa

So all we know for sure is that the tombs of these alleged clan-founding patriarchs existed and were visited during pre-Islamic times. Is the belief that they were of Arabian descent also pre-Islamic or was it an Islamic embelishment? What do all the oldest Somali traditions say??

I'm sure you're aware that such traditions of ancestral tribe or clan founders is a common theme among Afrasian speaking peoples in general from Afrasian speaking tribes as far south as the Tanzanian Rift Valley, to the Hausa of Nigeria to the Tagelmust (Tuareg) of the Sahara, to of course Arabs and Hebrews of the Bible. Even the ancient Egyptians themselves generally considered their divine ancestors to be Ausar (Osiris) and Aset (Isis).
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:

well in somalia clan is social grouping but rather paternal lineage, every one in that particular clan can trace their forefathers all the way to the clan. my grandfather was somali darood and we have written record of our "abtiris" (paternal line). you cant just assume without actuall knowlegde of somalis.

Then again, there are those Ashraf tribes and clans in Africa and in other Islamicized regions of the world who also have geneologies going back to the Prophet Muhammed so what exactly makes you or other clan geneologies authentic?? No offense.

quote:
as for the tomb it is not some new found, it is been there since his death and his descendent have been going to his memorial every year for almost 13 hundred years. why would we want disturb the dead? just to serve your curiosity.
Well no disrespect, but I and others merely like to see some actual evidence is all. Again, I am not disputing the existence or Arabian origin of this character of 'Darood'. He may very well have existed but other than folk traditions how do you know that tomb is really his?
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:

quote:
Originally posted by KING:
If as the reference says that Arabs that looked like Africans were the dominate type in Arabia up until the 15th century, Then the question that needs to be asked is what happened?

Are we to believe that there was a ethnic cleansing of these people?

Does Hatred of Dark skin factor into this?

Peace

this is where the recessive genes comes in, they were "dark skin caucasians" (cant think of better term atm) to begin with and inter marrying with turks and other light skinned arabised asians didnt help preserving their dark skin. if you ever been to Saudi Arabia and yemen you'd know that they are darker and more negriod than say Iraqi or Palestine.

here some visuals to help you understand better, first one somali/russian, second one somali/philippino. after just one genaration almost no african traits left.

 -

 -

 -

Well considering that scientifically there is no such thing as "caucasians" with the only true Caucasians being the people of the Caucasus Mountains, there really is no racial term to use at all. But I get your point. Considering that the offspring of Horn Africans and Eurasians tend to look more like the Eurasian parent, it's not surprising too see how admixture could affect indigenous Arabians who looked not much different. Although this is just part of it.

I believe another reason is that the Arab media itself tends not to show the darker skinned or black type people, considering that such folk are alot more common than many people believe from what I've read and the pictures I've seen of the populace from Doug and Dana. Like Indian media, the focus is usually on the 'fair-and-lovely' types if you know what I mean.

There is already an ongoing discussion on what the 'true' Arabs look like here.

By the way, is the woman in the bottom pic the half-Filipina/half-Somali model Amira Ahmed? [Smile]
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
the tomb doesnt pre-date islam, it dates back to 9th century, after the introduction of islam into horn-africa.

There was nothing devine about Jabarti, he was just sufi sheikh. I must say you show obscene amount of arrogance, you want us excavate the tomb for your pleasure [Roll Eyes]

all respected islamic historians, such as
The 9th century Islamic writers Al- Masudi and Yaqub Ibn Abudllah Al-Hamawi book Aqeeliyoon, acknowledge jabarti and his descendents in somalia and yemen

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3171836

been told this is good artical, I post all of it soon.
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Avee

What you fail to understand is that Tutsis are every bit West African as the Hutu Bantus. In fact Tutsis ARE BAntu.

Whatever case you can make for there features or hair, They are more related to other West Africans then East.

To me, the Tutsis are no different then the Fulani. Who are Another West African group with fine features yet have E3a at 100%.

What bothers me is how Africans can look at other Africans and find excuses to hate and seperate.

Unity is the Key.

Peace

King, you are talking to a bantu. So I know what am talking about. Yes some genetic studies say Tutsi are not different from bantu(doubt that). Question is are those studies real? Reality tells us something else. The Tutsi are not only physically different from bantus but their culture is different too. I have been arround Africa and can say I fit in any west African culture from senegal to south Africa. When I meet, say, Ghanian or senegalis we get on like he is from my country. The cultures are very similar. Come the Tutsi who are fellow country men, their culture is alien. We look at them as the other. Since the Tutsi mythology says they came from then north east that leaves the possiblity that they have horner roots.

Read somewhere that the Fulanis have R1 something at about 35%. Sudan Fulanis are 45% R1 something. These Fulanis are mixed race. From the hooked nose to the large ears. :

 -  -
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
Thanks dana marniche , the original inhabitatents of the arabian peninsula were racially no differents than the cushites of east africa, however I dont agree with the Iraqi and ottomon input in somalia and ethiopia. ottoman settlers around 14-16th century can be found in harar ethiopia and along southern coast of somali(specially merca), where Haplogroup J* is prominent and they only make less than 1% of the population of the region.

 -

atleast to me I dont see any racial differences

I thought I was looking at Indians from India. The guy in the middle and the butt of the woman on the left gave them away. The woman on the left has a typical Arabic/semetic nose. Are the Amahara(the ruling class) not J haplogroup at 45%? It seems the ruling classes in the horn have semetic roots.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Avee!! "Semites"..all originated in East Africa back migration not with-standing,and again be mind-full of casual eye-balling it gets folks in trouble all the time.Hook nose and large ears?..why is that not an African feature as flat nose and small ears.
Please visit this thread
The racial typologocial "true Negro" myth
debunk
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
Come the Tutsi who are fellow country men, their culture is alien. We look at them as the other.

As you've already made clear your thought process derives from seeing sharp features of which you deem "Caucasian" (Alien) features.

It's beyond a doubt plain as day that your thought process is certainly deluded by the influence from a "white" Eurocentric or as you most likely would put it, a Caucasian (Alien) perspective.

Too bad you'd rather stay stuck in this "alien's" phase that you're in, without bothering to read, or do you read at all? Does science scare you?

Learn about the continent as a wholes history (read a book), not just your own approximative boundary of which you deem to be real African, or as your own classified aliens would say the "True Negro".

Right here is a great place to start, at Egypt search!!
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
Btw Avee too bad you've already flunked... [Wink]


quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father.

Where do Caucasoid features originate? Can you perhaps define where and when these features arose specifically and according to whom? Btw not all Somalis and Ethiopians are mixed not even the majority. If you think otherwise prove it!

P.s. the following male also has sharp features but we know his people (Tutsis) have predominately E3a (E1b1a) without any non African admixture so how did this happen Avee? Do tell....if you can, is it magic?
 -

Am from a ´bantu country with a sizable tutsi/ Hima population. To bantu these people are as Alien as horners or arabs. We look at them as foreigners. There is not doubt in my mind that these people do not belong to E3a like west Africans. It is not just their features but their hair texture too. Not to forget their culture. I was surprised when I learned they are not related to horners. Their female tradtional dress is middle eastern/ horn of Africa looking. bantu feel more kinship to nilo-saharans than they do tutsi or bahima as call them in my country. They are aliens. No way can they be of west African stock.
Hey I understand what you're saying, pretty much that you're not up to par with the knowledge in pertinence to African diversity and human diversity altogether...Broad faced Africans adapted to a hot and humid climate while thinner longer faced Africans adapted to a hot and dry climate, this is the reason for the differences in phenotype you see, Y-dna and Mtdna does not equate with phenotypical features at all.

#1) I asked you where do Caucasian features originate? No answer, you failed queston 1.

#2) I asked you if you can explain where and when Caucasian features arose and according to whom? Again, no answer, failed question number 2.

#3) I informed you that not all Somalians and Ethiopians were mixed and in fact not even the majority are mixed, I then asked if you were able to prove otherwise? This went unanswered as well. Failed to answer question # 3.

#4) I showed you a Tutsi who possesses those same sharp features who belongs predominantly to the Y-chromosome E1b1a (E3a) with no outside non African admixture yet as can see he possesses those same sharp features. I asked you to explain how this could be, and again no logical answer, You've failed the test....


 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:


Read somewhere that the Fulanis have R1 something at about 35%. Sudan Fulanis are 45% R1 something. These Fulanis are mixed race. From the hooked nose to the large ears. :

After re-reading your posts I wouldn't doubt that you're an undercover Dirk8/Afronuthugger, a Eurocentrist in disguise.

Perhaps you'll learn something about the R haplogroup here, or if you have any problems or objections do let it be known....

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002167;p=1#000000

...and most recently

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002396
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Avee said

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans."

 -

But, on the contrary the features of this Somali man except for his hair are typical of early and prehistorical east Africans. The culture of Middle Easterners was first influenced by early East Africans known as Arabs. And the entire region of the Sahel stretching to West Africa has of course been influenced by contact with the Middle East.
The Somalis get their non-African hair mainly from recent Middle Eastern and Yemeni contact over the past 3 centuries. Straight hair, however, has little to do with the peoples like early Yemenites and mostly "jet black" Qureish of Mecca whom the Jabarti's claim descent from nor other Khadar or near black tribes predominant in Arabia until the 15th century.

The narrow elongated facial features of the Fulani, Danakil, Samburu, Somali, etc. have little to do with non-African influence and are found in Elmenteitan skeletons dating back before the historic era and are related to evolution in the desedrt like areas.

Their are very few Africans in the Sahel that are purely African and that is because they originally occupied the neolithci Sahara and north Africa which has had much contact through slavery and settlement with non African peoples. most of these do not have Somali features that includes the Tuareg, Hausa, Teda, Tibbu and even many of the Mande speaking tribes.

Peoples like the Somali and Tuareg get their less than woolly hair mainly from people like the Iraqis Syrians and Turks who have settled up until late times in the area. Their has been recent influence from Iraq in particular in the last few centuries.

 -
El Moran (warrior) of the Samburu
His "sharp" features have little to do with being mixed with being "Caucasoid" as ancient skeletal evidence of Kenyans has proven.

You will in fact rarely see a European with features as "sharp" or refined as many east Africans.

Also, the populations of Arabia were mainly near black and kinky haired people up until several centuries ago.
Quote from the 14th century - “'Red', in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.

According to Richmond Palmer's book, Bornu Sahara and Sudan, Arabia was considered part of Bilad es Sudan or "land of the blacks" by peoples of the North in the early Islamic era - by Syrians like Al Umari - and that is why the earliest Islamic "Moors" who invaded north Africa and Spain from Arabia are referred to as black as melted pitch which is the color of many Somali and Arabians. Early Arabians are described by non-Arabs as jet black and dark brownish black (Akhdar).

Also the Arabs were mostly kinky haired and not straight haired like the slaves of the Arabs were said to have been. As early Arab linguist Ibn Mandur said, "“kinky hair was the hair Arabs had and that lank hair was the hair of the Persian”.

Al Mubarrad born in Basra Iraq said in the 9th century. "The Arabs used to take pride in there darkness and blackness and they had a distaste for a fair skin..."

The Qureish came from a tribe known as Kenanah otherwise called Canaanites. They still live in Arabia and Israel/Palestine and in Israel are still black some as black as jet.


 -
El Moran of the Kenya

The Samburu/Masai, Oromo and Somali and other east Africans do not get their refined features from being "impure Africans."

On the other hand ancient and early Arabs or semites were affiliated with black Africans. Rock art, skeletal and archeological evidence of Arabia and the Syro-ARabian deserts validates this.

 -
Shammar Arabian (a Ru'alla or Ruwalla related tribe)

 -
Henna bearded man of the Somali (bin Sama'al) of the same stock.

The early Yemenite Rahawiyyin or Ru'wayn (also the tribe in Somalia called Rahawayn or Rahanwayn ) of Himyar and Rawalla or Ru'alla bin An'aes are both descended from an ancient Arabian chief named "Ra'wani" or "el Ar'awi" in later Arab genealogies better known in the west as the Biblical Reu'el, while the name Shammar is obviously the Shammah or Samma son of Reuel of Esau (el Aes). (Genesis 36:17)

Until the 15th century people that looked like Somalis and other east Africans predominated in Arabia and the region of western Yemen extending north toward Ta'if and Mecca was known as Kush, Kenaan, Siyan (Zion) and Yishar-el before these became place names in Syria. (See the Bible Came from Arabia by Kamal Salibi).

Al Sama and Sama'al are names of an ancient Arabian clan of the Sabaeans (batn Himyar) mentioned in Islamic Yemenite sources and earlier sources. (Mad'aj p. 91) The names may very well refer to the same tribe and be the root of the name Sam whom the Somaali (or bin Sama'al) and Shammar claim descent from.

Ibn Rabbu of 9th c. Cordoba quoted an Madhij of the clan of El Nakha in Yemen and Hadramaut saying one of the 7 rare things in this world was a fair-skinned Arab and that a "fair-skinned" Arab was "inconceivable".

Modern dark-skinned descendants of ancient Arabians like the Qarra and Mahra of Oman told colonial observers they originated in Africa.

 -
Yafi- Yahar members of the Yemen

Early Islamic Yemenite sources say they belonged to the Ru'ayn Himyarites of Arabia (see Abd'ul Muhsin Mad'aj. The Yemen in Early Islam, 1988. p.91)
[/QUOTE]

Horn Afrik wrote:
According to many medieval and modern Islamic historians the Darod clan more than 1/3 of the somalis, desceded from Aqeel ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed(SCW)


If darod was one of those horner look Arabians above, was prophet Mohammed black too given the darod descend from prophet Muhammeds cousin Aqeel ibn Abi Talib? I highly doubt Mohammed was anything but Arab as we see them today. What role did slavery play in establishing the black population Saudi and Yemen? If horner types were proto- Arabs how did Semetic J become dorminant? Where did J come from? Proto- arabs must have been E1b1b, no?
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Avee
quote:
If darod was one of those horner look Arabians above, was prophet Mohammed black too given the darod descend from prophet Muhammeds cousin Aqeel ibn Abi Talib? I highly doubt Mohammed was anything but Arab as we see them today.
The Glory In Magnifience Of The Blacks Over The Whites
quote:
According to Al-Jahiz, Abd al-Muttalib, the guardian of the sacred Kaaba, "fathered ten Lords, Black as the night and magnificent." One of these men was Abdallah, the father of the Prophet Muhammad.
So maybe^...and on another note it is quite possible that is the so-called Horners were the ones taking slaves from Arabia at that time..for before the prophet's birth they were the colonial power in Arabia at that time..Axumite/Habasha..that is..given that losers in any conflict had to give somthings including gold ,cattle of some sort and slaves why should pre-Islamic Arabia be any different considering the times.
 
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
To learn more about Darod you can check out Dierk Lange's, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, the name Darood or Darud among the Somali is due to their relationship to the Mahra and other proto-Arabian tribes.

As Lange says, the "remnants of ancient Canaanite-Israelite cult names, and group identities are widespread among the different Somali clans." p. 261.

Some of these names include Makir (Machir), Rahanwayn (Ru'ayn or Ruhawayn) Wubar (Wabara or Ubar), Yubir and Hubir (Heber), Sama'al or Somala, Ishaq (or Isaac), Magaado(Magdi'el) Afar or Anfar (Aphren) etc., the name Darood is the Mahra or south Arabian and Somali pronunication of the more modern Arabic (Dawud or David).


"Altogether the names and legends of the northern Somali clan-families indicate that their ancestors were familiar with the details of teh biblical genealogical charter as it applied to their specific clan organization before they had left South Arabia." Lange 200 p. 276.

Darud was the name of Mahra towns in southern Arabia as well. The Arabian Mahri claimed to have come from the Kudha'a of Arabia, Himyarites who are the Kaath of Josephus, Kuth of Abyssinian genealogists and Kuhath or Qahith "son of Levi".

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 - [/QB

I've been around the United States and most who identify themselves as Black look half-white. Facial features, often quite different from Jamaicans, never mind, "pure" Africans living in Nigeria et al. I could do produce same nonsense and define blackness as well.

Having said that, most African-Americans don't even know their actual lineages. Much like "white Americans", who represent a bastardized group of people as well. Please don't act like Blacks in the States could maintain their "Pure" African lineage, because that's nearly impossible.

On the other hand, East Africans belong to established groups that have essentially maintained specific lineages for thousands of years. In addition, mainstream anthropology and genetics suggests that East Africans represent an indigenous population.

One that isn't "Caucasian" and those traits you see are African in origin. Just because it's present in Europe doesn't make it so. Human development in the Caucasus mountains isn't even comparable to East Africa. Diversity is many times greater in the motherland. Besides that male you posted isn't the norm.
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
To learn more about Darod you can check out Dierk Lange's, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, the name Darood or Darud among the Somali is due to their relationship to the Mahra and other proto-Arabian tribes.

As Lange says, the "remnants of ancient Canaanite-Israelite cult names, and group identities are widespread among the different Somali clans." p. 261.

Some of these names include Makir (Machir), Rahanwayn (Ru'ayn or Ruhawayn) Wubar (Wabara or Ubar), Yubir and Hubir (Heber), Sama'al or Somala, Ishaq (or Isaac), Magaado(Magdi'el) Afar or Anfar (Aphren) etc., the name Darood is the Mahra or south Arabian and Somali pronunication of the more modern Arabic (Dawud or David).


"Altogether the names and legends of the northern Somali clan-families indicate that their ancestors were familiar with the details of teh biblical genealogical charter as it applied to their specific clan organization before they had left South Arabia." Lange 200 p. 276.

Darud was the name of Mahra towns in southern Arabia as well. The Arabian Mahri claimed to have come from the Kudha'a of Arabia, Himyarites who are the Kaath of Josephus, Kuth of Abyssinian genealogists and Kuhath or Qahith "son of Levi".

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 - [/QB

I've been around the United States and most who identify themselves as Black look half-white. Facial features, often quite different from Jamaicans, never mind, "pure" Africans living in Nigeria et al. I could do produce same nonsense and define blackness as well.

Having said that, most African-Americans don't even know their actual lineages. Much like "white Americans", who represent a bastardized group of people as well. Please don't act like Blacks in the States could maintain their "Pure" African lineage, because that's nearly impossible.

On the other hand, East Africans belong to established groups that have essentially maintained specific lineages for thousands of years. In addition, mainstream anthropology and genetics suggests that East Africans represent an indigenous population.

One that isn't "Caucasian" and those traits you see are African in origin. Just because it's present in Europe doesn't make it so. Human development in the Caucasus mountains isn't even comparable to East Africa. Diversity is many times greater in the motherland. Besides that male you posted isn't the norm.

If you look at peope who live in the proximity of non-Africans(including north Africans) they look something like east Africans. From Sudan to Mauritania. Why are they not found in the interior? Contact between bantu and arabs in coastal Kenya has produced a small group of people called Bajuni. Because these people marry their own kind or Arabs they are fast becoming their own race.They have their family histories written down and trace their paternal lineages to places like Oman and other Arab countries. This I believe is the process east Africans went through.
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
To learn more about Darod you can check out Dierk Lange's, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, the name Darood or Darud among the Somali is due to their relationship to the Mahra and other proto-Arabian tribes.

As Lange says, the "remnants of ancient Canaanite-Israelite cult names, and group identities are widespread among the different Somali clans." p. 261.

Some of these names include Makir (Machir), Rahanwayn (Ru'ayn or Ruhawayn) Wubar (Wabara or Ubar), Yubir and Hubir (Heber), Sama'al or Somala, Ishaq (or Isaac), Magaado(Magdi'el) Afar or Anfar (Aphren) etc., the name Darood is the Mahra or south Arabian and Somali pronunication of the more modern Arabic (Dawud or David).


"Altogether the names and legends of the northern Somali clan-families indicate that their ancestors were familiar with the details of teh biblical genealogical charter as it applied to their specific clan organization before they had left South Arabia." Lange 200 p. 276.

Darud was the name of Mahra towns in southern Arabia as well. The Arabian Mahri claimed to have come from the Kudha'a of Arabia, Himyarites who are the Kaath of Josephus, Kuth of Abyssinian genealogists and Kuhath or Qahith "son of Levi".

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 - [/QB

I've been around the United States and most who identify themselves as Black look half-white. Facial features, often quite different from Jamaicans, never mind, "pure" Africans living in Nigeria et al. I could do produce same nonsense and define blackness as well.

Having said that, most African-Americans don't even know their actual lineages. Much like "white Americans", who represent a bastardized group of people as well. Please don't act like Blacks in the States could maintain their "Pure" African lineage, because that's nearly impossible.

On the other hand, East Africans belong to established groups that have essentially maintained specific lineages for thousands of years. In addition, mainstream anthropology and genetics suggests that East Africans represent an indigenous population.

One that isn't "Caucasian" and those traits you see are African in origin. Just because it's present in Europe doesn't make it so. Human development in the Caucasus mountains isn't even comparable to East Africa. Diversity is many times greater in the motherland. Besides that male you posted isn't the norm.

If you look at peope who live in the proximity of non-Africans(including north Africans) they look something like east Africans. From Sudan to Mauritania. Why are they not found in the interior? Contact between bantu and arabs in coastal Kenya has produced a small group of people called Bajuni. Because these people marry their own kind or Arabs they are fast becoming their own race.They have their family histories written down and trace their paternal lineages to places like Oman and other Arab countries. This I believe is the process east Africans went through.
BAJUNI PEOPLE.
http://media.banadir24.com/images/wedding/aweys-kuusoo/DSC03789.JPG
 
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

So maybe^...and on another note it is quite possible that is the so-called Horners were the ones taking slaves from Arabia at that time..for before the prophet's birth they were the colonial power in Arabia at that time..Axumite/Habasha..that is..given that losers in any conflict had to give somthings including gold ,cattle of some sort and slaves why should pre-Islamic Arabia be any different considering the times.

Ackee,

I visited Dubai two weeks ago. The country
at the time was celebrating their
nationalday, and the ruling
family do not deny
that their ancestries came from East
Africa (mostly from Somalia),
and their recent ancestries from Yemen.
I have met people
who claim that their
great great mothers came from Somalia.

That was one of the reason I started this
topic to find out the linkage between
East Africa and Arabian peninsula.
In fact my own great mother immigrated
to Yemen as young girl and lived
and married a native Yemeni.

Another thing I found out in Dubai was,
be careful speaking Somali language among
Yemeni people, because most of them
understand Somali [Big Grin] [Big Grin] OPS!!!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Avee said

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians
 -
Yafi- Yahar members of the Yemen

Early Islamic Yemenite sources say they belonged to the Ru'ayn Himyarites of Arabia (see Abd'ul Muhsin Mad'aj. The Yemen in Early Islam, 1988. p.91)

Horn Afrik wrote:
According to many medieval and modern Islamic historians the Darod clan more than 1/3 of the somalis, desceded from Aqeel ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed(SCW)


If darod was one of those horner look Arabians above, was prophet Mohammed black too given the darod descend from prophet Muhammeds cousin Aqeel ibn Abi Talib? I highly doubt Mohammed was anything but Arab as we see them today. What role did slavery play in establishing the black population Saudi and Yemen? If horner types were proto- Arabs how did Semetic J become dorminant? Where did J come from? Proto- arabs must have been E1b1b, no?
[/QUOTE]

Avee i'm assuming that you are fairly new to discussion of African and Afro-Asiatic history. I personally only know that many members of Muhammed's family are described as black in Arab literature his grandfather tribe on his father side, his mother's tribe and other relatives. The earliest writings describe the Prophet by the term green or Akhdar which in the Arabic language signifies one of a black or near black in complexion. The clan of Bani Hashem and Quraish are clans of Kenanah who are still black tribes living in Israel and Arabia. From their name comes the word Canaanite. Thus unless there is some non-Arab ancestry in Muhammed's backgound we can assume he looked like the other "pure Arabs" of that region which is Hejaz.

A Syrian named el Dhahabi who traveled through the Hejaz as late as the 13th century said this.

“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.

Furthermore, the celebrated al Rumi born not long ago in the 13th century in Persia (Tajikistan or Afghanistan) being disgusted at the condescending attitude towards the Prophet Mohammed's family wrote a poem al Jeemia to the Abbasid leaders then saying : "You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color." That's quoted from Tariq Berry and Dr. Wesley Williams. The Miidle East was of course largely fair-skinned while the pure Arabs or Arabians like the Quraish were still very black.

Another Qurayshi or Qoreish pondered whether fair-skinned people coming into Arabia in increasing numbers should be "exterminated". Tariq Berry cites Ibn Rabbu of Cordoba as quoting a Qurayshi saying - “I see these whites have become very numerous and are saying bad things about those who have passed. I can envision a daring enterprise from them against the Arabs and authority. I am thinking of killing half of them and leaving half of them to set up markets and to build roads.
Whats your opinion?”

Thankfully Mohammed talked to his family and tribal members and prevented a war between the blacks (Arabs) and the "reds". Red was a term for Eurasiatic or fair-skinned Arabs and Europeans or the Rumi (Greco-Romans) who have since moved into Arabia.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Many clans throughout Africa and the Middle East claim descent from Mohammed's family of the Quraish.

On the other hand its probable that some of the Jabarti lineages did originate to some extent since the time of Mohammed from Quraish clans.

Actually, Qadiriyah son of Ismail son of Ibrahim son of Abdisamad sounds a lot like the legendary or ancient Yemenite Qaydhar son of Ismail son of Ibrahim who descends from Abu Shams or Saba and is Isma'il sometimes called the father of Qahtan.

Lange adds "it should be mentioned that Darood claim certain Arab tribes living in the Saudi Arabian province of Asir, in the Yemenite province of Hadramaut, and in northern Oman as their kin. Referring to them by their eponymous ancestor they call them in line with their own designation Darood Ismaaiil, Asiir Ismaaiil and Suri Ismaaiil." p. 261 Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa: African Centered and Canaanite-Israelite Perspectives (2004)

This again links the roots of the name of Darud or Darood with the pre-Arabic speaking Mahri or Mahra or Maheyra and Shahri or Shahara groups of ancient Yemen, Oman and the Asir region (Jizan, Tehama) regions.

Let's not confuse mythology or folk traditions with actual scientific evidence. We know through genetics that while the Somali populace has paternal lineages there are predominantly of African origin there are indeed Eurasian lineages present albeit at minimal frequencies. However such lineages do NOT at all correlate to the actual clan network of the Somali people.

By the way, as for south Arabian groups like the Mahra and Qahra, were they not a matrilineal people once as opposed to patrilineal??

quote:
Most historians recognize Darod as a historical figure. For one thing he and his lineage seems to have been mentioned by al Masudi.

Dierk Lange also mentions that although the folklore surrounding Darod and Ishaq seem based on earlier traditions of similar figures in the Koran and Bible they are individuals whose tombs are visited by modern Somalis.

Of Darod and Ishaq it is said "Both Somali clan ancestors are worshipped during pilgrimmages to their tombs.These lie in Northern Somalia 70 km from each other with the tomb of the elder Daarood located further inland and less frequented." p. 260 Ancient Kingdoms of Western Africa

So all we know for sure is that the tombs of these alleged clan-founding patriarchs existed and were visited during pre-Islamic times. Is the belief that they were of Arabian descent also pre-Islamic or was it an Islamic embelishment? What do all the oldest Somali traditions say??

I'm sure you're aware that such traditions of ancestral tribe or clan founders is a common theme among Afrasian speaking peoples in general from Afrasian speaking tribes as far south as the Tanzanian Rift Valley, to the Hausa of Nigeria to the Tagelmust (Tuareg) of the Sahara, to of course Arabs and Hebrews of the Bible. Even the ancient Egyptians themselves generally considered their divine ancestors to be Ausar (Osiris) and Aset (Isis).

Since the Mahra tribe and other clans of Somalia were and are still found on the other side of the red sea in Arabia, i.e. Harim, Makhir, Wubar, Hubir, Yubir, Rahawayn, - I'm not sure why we would need to question the traditions. And yes they are recorded as claiming an Arabian descent from Saam, whom I mentioned previously is probably connected to the name of the bin Samaal and al Sama of ancient Arabia.

The Arabian Mahra, Mahri or Mahara are recorded in very early texts as clans of the Kudh'a a son of Himyar and in early Islamic traditions. This is stated by many writers, but I'll just quote one of them from - Encyclopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol 1.

"The name Kuda'i is an early one and can be traced in fragments of the old Arab poetry. The tribes recorded as Kuda'i were Kalb, Juhayna, Bali, Bahra, Khawlan, Mahra,Khushayn, Jarm, Udhra Balkayn, Tanukh and Salih." R. Khanam 2005 p. 463.

Other writers make Mahra the son of Hamdan another Himyarite related tribe mentioned in ancient Sabaean inscriptions.

I'm also not certain why we should be concerned with "Eurasiatics" when we are talking of early Arabians whom the early "Eurasiatics" (Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Turks) mentioned were basically people with kinky hair and dark-brown to black skins and whom they referred to as the "pure Arabs".

Even 13th central Asian Rumi complained to leaders of his day about the condenscension towards pure Arabs including Mohammed's family saying: "You insulted them because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color."

I personally believe the unusual straightness of hair combined with unusual blackness among some Somali's may reflect recent connections with "Eurasiatics" who now predominate in the Yemen as elsewhere in Arabia as their contacts with East Africa are well known. This, however, has nothing to do with the fact that the bulk of Somali ancestors are probably from the pre-Iranian influenced Mahra, Rahawiyyin(Sabaean-Himyarite related groups) of Arabia.

As for the Jabartis, as I mentioned many groups in Africa stretching to West Africa claim descent from the Prophet. Nevertheless, a recent Arabian ancestry of several Darod lineages is plausible just as we know many of the groups of northern Sudan have come in late Islamic times to Sudan - some absorbing the pre-Islamic populations there and some not. Somali children related to Darod and Ismaiil clans are made to memorize their ancestors back 14 and more generations.

If anything should not be "confused" its the "red men" or "Eurasiatics" with those "blacks" the "Eurasiatics" once called "the Arabs". They didn't get confused 1000 years ago and neither should we.

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Mahra men of Arabia dance


And though Mahra are very patrifocal today they do still show traces of an ancient Matrifocal society. While the "matriarchal customs" of Qarra were talked about by Colonialist Bertram Thomas.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
Thanks dana marniche , the original inhabitatents of the arabian peninsula were racially no differents than the cushites of east africa, however I dont agree with the Iraqi and ottomon input in somalia and ethiopia. ottoman settlers around 14-16th century can be found in harar ethiopia and along southern coast of somali(specially merca), where Haplogroup J* is prominent and they only make less than 1% of the population of the region.


here is pure arab rashida in eritrea (migrated from saudi arabia)
 -


atleast to me I dont see any racial differences

Thanks for your compliment. Nevertheless, I have to ask you if that is a "pure" Rashaida what are these people below who are darker. The man you posted looks like the mixed or mulatto that he is.

One thing good to remember is that the Rashaida are among the most recent Arab immigrants to Sudan. They also claim descent from the Abs who are well described as black in color in early Arab literature. And I'm not talking about their slaves or those descended from slaves like Antar. In fact , the Abs ancestral tribes the Murad/Qaran and Ghutayf of the Maddhij of Hadramaut and Yemen are also well described as "black". Like all of the original tribes of Qahtan i.e. Arabia - the Abs and early Rachid or Rasheeda were black. They, however had and still have fair-skinned concubines who look rather Iranian or even European in appearance. Thus the Rashaida man in your photograph is a pure MIXTURE, and does not reflect his early Abs or Arab ancestors.

Some evidently less mixed Rashaida are below.

 -
Rashaida man in southern Arabia

 -
Rashaida woman in northeast Africa
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by horn-afrik:
[QB] Thanks dana marniche ,  -

On the other hand, this Tigrai woman you posted reminds me a lot of the ancient South Arabian women, like this early ruler of the Sabaeans. Like many woman of Eritrea she has the same high "bulbous" forhead and eyes as this ancient Queen. Even the nose is similar.

 -

Ancient Sabaean ruler in Yemen
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Avee

What you fail to understand is that Tutsis are every bit West African as the Hutu Bantus. In fact Tutsis ARE BAntu.

Whatever case you can make for there features or hair, They are more related to other West Africans then East.

To me, the Tutsis are no different then the Fulani. Who are Another West African group with fine features yet have E3a at 100%.

What bothers me is how Africans can look at other Africans and find excuses to hate and seperate.

Unity is the Key.

Peace

King, you are talking to a bantu. So I know what am talking about. Yes some genetic studies say Tutsi are not different from bantu(doubt that). Question is are those studies real? Reality tells us something else. The Tutsi are not only physically different from bantus but their culture is different too. I have been arround Africa and can say I fit in any west African culture from senegal to south Africa. When I meet, say, Ghanian or senegalis we get on like he is from my country. The cultures are very similar. Come the Tutsi who are fellow country men, their culture is alien. We look at them as the other. Since the Tutsi mythology says they came from then north east that leaves the possiblity that they have horner roots.

Read somewhere that the Fulanis have R1 something at about 35%. Sudan Fulanis are 45% R1 something. These Fulanis are mixed race. From the hooked nose to the large ears. :

 -

You are correct about the Tutsi and the Fulani Avee. The original Fulani come from North Africa and the Saharan neolithic where their totemic hairstyles and unique implements and pastoral lifestyle are well-depicted. It is possible that during their stay along coastal north Africa in the late Paleothic they picked up some "Eurasiatic" traits, the least of which were their narrow noses. On the other hand, certain traits of nose as the length hair may in fact be evidence of Eurasiatic admixture. These traits however were already present by the neolithic in the Sahara.

The neolithic industries of the Sahara (Tenere, Tassili, Fayum, Kharga) are also known to have traveled westward to the Horn of Africa and Arabian desert where similar lithic traditions are found and similar tall "oval headed" people depicted. Thus it is very possible that it is the Fulani who are ancestral to the Horners and not vice versa, although the Fulani now speak dialects of the Niger-Congo grouping.

As for the Watutsi it should be enough to know that like the purer Fulani called Woodabe whose men often reached "7 feet" in height, the Watutsi were also consistently described as extremely tall often reaching 'between 7 and 8 feet in height'. They actually claim "a Hebraic" origin and as everyone knows they wear hairstyles that are seemingly identical to ancient Egyptians. The physical type of tall pastoral peoples like the Hima, Maasaai and Tutsi are possibly connected to the ancient Elmenteitan culture that appear to have links to the southwest Saharan "stone bowl" culture. Elmenteitan (formerly Kenya Capsian) culture was once thought to be several thousand years older than it is now believed. Now much of it is dated to the 2nd millenium. Early types thought to be related to Elmenteitans also appeared in India in the area of Gujarat at Lothal and other places, thus explaining where some of the taller slender peoples of India get their "Ethiopic" appearance.

Hima, Maasai, Tutsi, Rendili may very well be a remnant of the early Sabaeans of Meroe and Arabia who are described as the tallest and blackest of all men. It is said that after a dam broke the ancient Sabaean tribes of Arim (Yarim) in Yemen scattered around the peninsula and into Africa. This movement is known as that of the Azd in Arabic tradition while in the Western Hebraic tradition it seems to refer to the "wondering Aramaeans". According to early Arab historians this is supposed to have occured at the time of a chief called Muzaikiya, an Azdite leader who is apparently the Biblical Moses.

It should be understood that the term El Moran among the Maasaai/Samburu is the same as the word in Aramaean meaning young man or warrior. While the name Hilm or Akhlamu-Aramu for Aramaeans in Assyrian writings is curiously similar if not identical to the name for the Ilm-Aromo of modern Ethiopia.

Peoples speaking Bantu are made up of very diverse physical types and thus should not be looked upon as either a "racial" or "biological" grouping. If the present state of genetics can not distinguish reliably between these various populations who speak a similar dialect but claim different originations than it is all the more reason why genetic studies should be reviewed critically and with the greatest caution.

However, I did read on this forum somewhere of a genetic connection between the Tutsi and another race of "giants" called Tuareg claiming a similar origin.
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
Thanks dana marniche , the original inhabitatents of the arabian peninsula were racially no differents than the cushites of east africa, however I dont agree with the Iraqi and ottomon input in somalia and ethiopia. ottoman settlers around 14-16th century can be found in harar ethiopia and along southern coast of somali(specially merca), where Haplogroup J* is prominent and they only make less than 1% of the population of the region.


here is pure arab rashida in eritrea (migrated from saudi arabia)
 -


atleast to me I dont see any racial differences

Thanks for your compliment. Nevertheless, I have to ask you if that is a "pure" Rashaida what are these people below who are darker. The man you posted looks like the mixed or mulatto that he is.

One thing good to remember is that the Rashaida are among the most recent Arab immigrants to Sudan. They also claim descent from the Abs who are well described as black in color in early Arab literature. And I'm not talking about their slaves or those descended from slaves like Antar. In fact , the Abs ancestral tribes the Murad/Qaran and Ghutayf of the Maddhij of Hadramaut and Yemen are also well described as "black". Like all of the original tribes of Qahtan i.e. Arabia - the Abs and early Rachid or Rasheeda were black. They, however had and still have fair-skinned concubines who look rather Iranian or even European in appearance. Thus the Rashaida man in your photograph is a pure MIXTURE, and does not reflect his early Abs or Arab ancestors.

Some evidently less mixed Rashaida are below.

 -
Rashaida man in southern Arabia

 -
Rashaida woman in northeast Africa

you generally have good points, but I wouldn't go as far as saying ancients arabs were black(negriod), dark skinned? yeah.

the last girl you posted to me looks very tigrai atleast 75%. what you dont seem to understand is that our poeple come various skin tones, my brother is as dark as night aka sudanese and I am very light (lighter the dude you think is mixed), however we have identical feateres and hair texture.

light skinned somali
 -

dark skinned somali
 -

skin tone doesn't make one less "pure", atleast not in NE africa
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
Thanks dana marniche , the original inhabitatents of the arabian peninsula were racially no differents than the cushites of east africa, however I dont agree with the Iraqi and ottomon input in somalia and ethiopia. ottoman settlers around 14-16th century can be found in harar ethiopia and along southern coast of somali(specially merca), where Haplogroup J* is prominent and they only make less than 1% of the population of the region.


here is pure arab rashida in eritrea (migrated from saudi arabia)
 -


atleast to me I dont see any racial differences

Thanks for your compliment. Nevertheless, I have to ask you if that is a "pure" Rashaida what are these people below who are darker. The man you posted looks like the mixed or mulatto that he is.

One thing good to remember is that the Rashaida are among the most recent Arab immigrants to Sudan. They also claim descent from the Abs who are well described as black in color in early Arab literature. And I'm not talking about their slaves or those descended from slaves like Antar. In fact , the Abs ancestral tribes the Murad/Qaran and Ghutayf of the Maddhij of Hadramaut and Yemen are also well described as "black". Like all of the original tribes of Qahtan i.e. Arabia - the Abs and early Rachid or Rasheeda were black. They, however had and still have fair-skinned concubines who look rather Iranian or even European in appearance. Thus the Rashaida man in your photograph is a pure MIXTURE, and does not reflect his early Abs or Arab ancestors.

Some evidently less mixed Rashaida are below.

 -
Rashaida man in southern Arabia

 -
Rashaida woman in northeast Africa

you generally have good points, but I wouldn't go as far as saying ancients arabs were black(negriod), dark skinned? yeah.

the last girl you posted to me looks very tigrai atleast 75%. what you dont seem to understand is that our poeple come various skin tones, my brother is as dark as night aka sudanese and I am very light (lighter the dude you think is mixed), however we have identical feateres and hair texture.

light skinned somali
 -

dark skinned somali
 -

skin tone doesn't make one less "pure", atleast not in NE africa

Horn - as you well know, black in the U.S. refers to people who come in various shades of blackness "Negroid" or not. The Rashaida man you posted is about two to three shades darker than one of my brothers and my mother. Another of my brothers is the color of the very pretty, dark skinned Somali woman you just posted. Why would I not understand that east Africans today come in various shades!

Since the Arabs used the term black for themselves like the non-Arab Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians, then it should not be hard for Somalis to refer to themselves as black.

I understand that Somalis have a different view of what blackness is but I never said the Arabs were all Negroid in the sense that Somalis and European racists use the term.

On the other hand, it is clear that some types of ancient Arabians including people of the Quraysh were not only jet black but "Negroid" as evidence of descriptions of various individuals as having flat noses along with being tall and black skinned, etc. like Saad ibn Waqqas and his grandson Ismail of the banu Zuhra clan of the Quraysh.

I am not saying all Arabians were "Negroid", on the other hand you can try to find a single Arab clan in the eraly Islamic period that is referred to as "red" (fair-skinned) in ancient Arabia that would have been a rare and "unthinkable" thing as the Madhij man from the clan of Nakh'l once said. (Ibn Cordoba Al Iqd al Farid)

Native tribes of Central Arabia called Rabi'a and Qays extending to Iraq and Khuzestan as late as the 19th century are well described as near black by colonialists and even with 'greased plaits" in their hair. While the earlier groups of Yemenites had long been mixed with Syrian and other non-Arab peoples of Mesopotamia. I have talked about this many times in my postings.

Some of these muscular groups living in the Nejd are still "Negroid" in appearance with large broad noses and of gigantic build which probably has nothing to do with recent African origins but was a known trait of the Ubaid neolithic peoples.

The one fair-skinned Arabian clan written about that I have come upon myself thanks to the book Unknown Arabs, are described by those who saw them as so fair that they "resembled slaves". It was even rare to find a straight haired Arabian clan in the time the majority of Arab writers. Tabari said the tribe of Sakun in the Yemen were black skinned but with straight hair and were thus unique as most Arabs according to many writers Ibn Mandur, Ibn Berry and Mubarrad were black skinned (Akhdar) and looked down upon fair skin as a sign of slave origin.

Maybe Somalis should start reading Arabic historians if they are interested in people believing their own folk stories of Arab origin.

 -
Arab "bedouin" of the Dana desert in Jordan
probably a result of mixutre, but still very broad nosed

 -
Some Saudi bedouins
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Well there you go^Arwa..sometimes the on the ground facts blows what people think they know out of the water.. btw miss your presence worrioress.. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The Rashaida are the last of the Arabs to enter Egypt, Sudan and move into the Tigrai province.

If you want to pretend that they are not a mixture of diverse peoples of various origins go right ahead.

The woman I posted of the Rashaida should look Tigrai as are most of the groups below.

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Eritrean Rashaida couple

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Tigrinya Rashaida

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Rashaida men of Sudan

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Rashaida woman of Eritrea

Unlike other Arabs in Sudan who came in early Islamic times through Egypt, the Rashaida and Kawahla show much more admixture with Eurasians. What is wrong with this assessment. Am I just color blind!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I hate to keep harping on the same subject but this is what most of the Darood and Isaac look like. Is there something non-Negroid about these people, Did they mix with "Bantus or something. Somali's should not try to pretend that the dominant population whether Jabarti or otherwise, are other than "blacks" with some non-Arab and non-African blood in them. Just like blacks around the world that have come in contact with such peoples - including the early Arabs!


 -


 -


 -
 
Posted by Avee (Member # 16937) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Avee said

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians

Early Islamic Yemenite sources say they belonged to the Ru'ayn Himyarites of Arabia (see Abd'ul Muhsin Mad'aj. The Yemen in Early Islam, 1988. p.91)

Horn Afrik wrote:
According to many medieval and modern Islamic historians the Darod clan more than 1/3 of the somalis, desceded from Aqeel ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed(SCW)


If darod was one of those horner look Arabians above, was prophet Mohammed black too given the darod descend from prophet Muhammeds cousin Aqeel ibn Abi Talib? I highly doubt Mohammed was anything but Arab as we see them today. What role did slavery play in establishing the black population Saudi and Yemen? If horner types were proto- Arabs how did Semetic J become dorminant? Where did J come from? Proto- arabs must have been E1b1b, no?

Avee i'm assuming that you are fairly new to discussion of African and Afro-Asiatic history. I personally only know that many members of Muhammed's family are described as black in Arab literature his grandfather tribe on his father side, his mother's tribe and other relatives. The earliest writings describe the Prophet by the term green or Akhdar which in the Arabic language signifies one of a black or near black in complexion. The clan of Bani Hashem and Quraish are clans of Kenanah who are still black tribes living in Israel and Arabia. From their name comes the word Canaanite. Thus unless there is some non-Arab ancestry in Muhammed's backgound we can assume he looked like the other "pure Arabs" of that region which is Hejaz.

A Syrian named el Dhahabi who traveled through the Hejaz as late as the 13th century said this.

“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.

Furthermore, the celebrated al Rumi born not long ago in the 13th century in Persia (Tajikistan or Afghanistan) being disgusted at the condescending attitude towards the Prophet Mohammed's family wrote a poem al Jeemia to the Abbasid leaders then saying : "You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color." That's quoted from Tariq Berry and Dr. Wesley Williams. The Miidle East was of course largely fair-skinned while the pure Arabs or Arabians like the Quraish were still very black.

Another Qurayshi or Qoreish pondered whether fair-skinned people coming into Arabia in increasing numbers should be "exterminated". Tariq Berry cites Ibn Rabbu of Cordoba as quoting a Qurayshi saying - “I see these whites have become very numerous and are saying bad things about those who have passed. I can envision a daring enterprise from them against the Arabs and authority. I am thinking of killing half of them and leaving half of them to set up markets and to build roads.
Whats your opinion?”

Thankfully Mohammed talked to his family and tribal members and prevented a war between the blacks (Arabs) and the "reds". Red was a term for Eurasiatic or fair-skinned Arabs and Europeans or the Rumi (Greco-Romans) who have since moved into Arabia.
[/QUOTE]

Clarification is needed here. We have or had darked skinned people with curly hair(veddoid) in the middle east. Are we not confusing veddoids for black Arabs of African origin? The Yafi- Yahar kind of look like the veddoid below.

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Yafi- Yahar members of the Yemen

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Yemeni Negritoid
"Arab" man
(1950s)
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Rashaida man in southern Arabia(Veddoid?)
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Yemeni Veddoid
man
(1950s
 -

 -
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
don't get me wrong, horn-africans are black negros, anyone who says otherwise is probably confused. however there is denying the fact that we are culturally, linguistically, and genatically( to some extent) linked with the arab world.
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
Yahar(yibir or yibro) can be found in somalia and ethiopia, specially wher I am harar ethiopian but we call them jews/heprew as they tend to have hooked noises and we dontmarry into them.

dana marniche what do you know know their origins Im interested?
 
Posted by horn-afrik (Member # 17069) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QB] I hate to keep harping on the same subject but this is what most of the Darood and Isaac look like. Is there something non-Negroid about these people, Did they mix with "Bantus or something. Somali's should not try to pretend that the dominant population whether Jabarti or otherwise, are other than "blacks" with some non-Arab and non-African blood in them. Just like blacks around the world that have come in contact with such peoples - including the early Arabs!


 -

I'd have never quessed they are somalis if it wasnt for the girl with curly hair (Oromos? yeah, btw Im half Oromo).

the other two pictures look just like the pics here.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Avee said

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians

Early Islamic Yemenite sources say they belonged to the Ru'ayn Himyarites of Arabia (see Abd'ul Muhsin Mad'aj. The Yemen in Early Islam, 1988. p.91)

Horn Afrik wrote:
According to many medieval and modern Islamic historians the Darod clan more than 1/3 of the somalis, desceded from Aqeel ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed(SCW)


If darod was one of those horner look Arabians above, was prophet Mohammed black too given the darod descend from prophet Muhammeds cousin Aqeel ibn Abi Talib? I highly doubt Mohammed was anything but Arab as we see them today. What role did slavery play in establishing the black population Saudi and Yemen? If horner types were proto- Arabs how did Semetic J become dorminant? Where did J come from? Proto- arabs must have been E1b1b, no?

Avee i'm assuming that you are fairly new to discussion of African and Afro-Asiatic history. I personally only know that many members of Muhammed's family are described as black in Arab literature his grandfather tribe on his father side, his mother's tribe and other relatives. The earliest writings describe the Prophet by the term green or Akhdar which in the Arabic language signifies one of a black or near black in complexion. The clan of Bani Hashem and Quraish are clans of Kenanah who are still black tribes living in Israel and Arabia. From their name comes the word Canaanite. Thus unless there is some non-Arab ancestry in Muhammed's backgound we can assume he looked like the other "pure Arabs" of that region which is Hejaz.

A Syrian named el Dhahabi who traveled through the Hejaz as late as the 13th century said this.

“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.

Furthermore, the celebrated al Rumi born not long ago in the 13th century in Persia (Tajikistan or Afghanistan) being disgusted at the condescending attitude towards the Prophet Mohammed's family wrote a poem al Jeemia to the Abbasid leaders then saying : "You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color." That's quoted from Tariq Berry and Dr. Wesley Williams. The Miidle East was of course largely fair-skinned while the pure Arabs or Arabians like the Quraish were still very black.

Another Qurayshi or Qoreish pondered whether fair-skinned people coming into Arabia in increasing numbers should be "exterminated". Tariq Berry cites Ibn Rabbu of Cordoba as quoting a Qurayshi saying - “I see these whites have become very numerous and are saying bad things about those who have passed. I can envision a daring enterprise from them against the Arabs and authority. I am thinking of killing half of them and leaving half of them to set up markets and to build roads.
Whats your opinion?”

Thankfully Mohammed talked to his family and tribal members and prevented a war between the blacks (Arabs) and the "reds". Red was a term for Eurasiatic or fair-skinned Arabs and Europeans or the Rumi (Greco-Romans) who have since moved into Arabia.

Clarification is needed here. We have or had darked skinned people with curly hair(veddoid) in the middle east. Are we not confusing veddoids for black Arabs of African origin? The Yafi- Yahar kind of look like the veddoid below.

 -
Yafi- Yahar members of the Yemen

 -
Yemeni Negritoid
"Arab" man
(1950s)
 -
Rashaida man in southern Arabia(Veddoid?)
 -
Yemeni Veddoid
man
(1950s
 -

 - [/QUOTE]

I would suggest that you get some books on line since they probably aren't in Sweden yet. The Unknown Arabs by Tariq Berry and Dr. Ivan Van Sertimas Journal of African Civilizations, Blacks in Asia volume.

You have several difrerent types of peoples of various mixtures in your posting none of whom would be called "Negritoids." The word doesn't exist.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by horn-afrik:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QB] I hate to keep harping on the same subject but this is what most of the Darood and Isaac look like. Is there something non-Negroid about these people, Did they mix with "Bantus or something. Somali's should not try to pretend that the dominant population whether Jabarti or otherwise, are other than "blacks" with some non-Arab and non-African blood in them. Just like blacks around the world that have come in contact with such peoples - including the early Arabs!


 -

I'd have never quessed they are somalis if it wasnt for the girl with curly hair (Oromos? yeah, btw Im half Oromo).

the other two pictures look just like the pics here.

The Darod people shown here can be found on the human diversity forum on a blog about the Darood Isaac. Everyone knows Somalis and the Ilm-Oromo look alike, which is partly why some scholars think the Somalis were origally Oromo.
 
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:
Originally posted by Avee:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
To learn more about Darod you can check out Dierk Lange's, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, the name Darood or Darud among the Somali is due to their relationship to the Mahra and other proto-Arabian tribes.

As Lange says, the "remnants of ancient Canaanite-Israelite cult names, and group identities are widespread among the different Somali clans." p. 261.

Some of these names include Makir (Machir), Rahanwayn (Ru'ayn or Ruhawayn) Wubar (Wabara or Ubar), Yubir and Hubir (Heber), Sama'al or Somala, Ishaq (or Isaac), Magaado(Magdi'el) Afar or Anfar (Aphren) etc., the name Darood is the Mahra or south Arabian and Somali pronunication of the more modern Arabic (Dawud or David).


"Altogether the names and legends of the northern Somali clan-families indicate that their ancestors were familiar with the details of teh biblical genealogical charter as it applied to their specific clan organization before they had left South Arabia." Lange 200 p. 276.

Darud was the name of Mahra towns in southern Arabia as well. The Arabian Mahri claimed to have come from the Kudha'a of Arabia, Himyarites who are the Kaath of Josephus, Kuth of Abyssinian genealogists and Kuhath or Qahith "son of Levi".

Like I knew all along. There is no way somalis and ethiopians could be a pure African people. To look the way somalis to look, with sharp cacausoid feature a male non-Africa has to be the father. If you look at African Americans who are fathered by white male they tend to have sharp cacausoid features as well. These people below are mixed race.Even there culture is very middle eastern. I personally do not believe these people share PN2 with west Africans.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 - [/QB

I've been around the United States and most who identify themselves as Black look half-white. Facial features, often quite different from Jamaicans, never mind, "pure" Africans living in Nigeria et al. I could do produce same nonsense and define blackness as well.

Having said that, most African-Americans don't even know their actual lineages. Much like "white Americans", who represent a bastardized group of people as well. Please don't act like Blacks in the States could maintain their "Pure" African lineage, because that's nearly impossible.



some african americans are unmixed.and many other blacks groups that are not african american.

by the way,most african americans look clearly black.most do not look half white,and most are not half white.
 
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
It needs to be stressed that allot of this confusion is due to European colonialism in which Arabs and Hamites ect. were to be made ruling classes by the colonial elite. Bantus were considered a hybrid in between "Hamite" and "true Negro" but opinions differed between people

Al Masudi was mentioned their are translations from Al Masudi that are racist or at least questionable

Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406) Al-Muqaddim (about universal history)

http://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/al-masudi

quote:
Masoudi took it upon him to look for the cause that produces by the Negroes that light handedness, the constant pleasure they radiate, but for all solutions there is only a word from Galen and Al-Kendi after whom their character goes towards a feeble brain, from where comes feeble intelligence. Their words do not prove anything and are without value.
Al-Mas'udi (916) Muruj al-Dhahab wa-Manadin al-Jawhar (Meadows of gold and mines of gems)

http://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/al-masudi

quote:
Among the inhabitants of the island is a community of Muslims, now speaking Zahjiyya (the language of the Zanj) who conquered this island and subjected all the Zanj on it in the same manner as the Muslim conquest of the island of Crete (or Cyprus or the Creoles) in the Mediterranean.(ka ghalabat al-Muslimin 'ala jazirat Iqritish) This event (the conquest of Qanbalu) took place around the period of the changeover from the Umayad to the Abbasid dynasty (c.747-754)

About the arm of the Nile which as we have said throws itself in the sea of Zendj, it is only a channel which comes from the upper basin of the Zendj and it serves as frontier with the lands inhabited by the Abyssiniennes. Without that channel, the vast desserts, and the moving sands, the enormous turbulent hordes of the Zendjs would have chased the Abyssiniens from their native lands.

It has a gulf towards Abyssinie, as far as Berbera, the land situated between the Zendj and the Abyssins. This gulf is called Beurberian, and according to Al-Fazari 7 or 6 hundred parasangs by 500. Do not confuse this land of Berbera with the Berbers, situated in the land called Ifrikiyah, a land very distinct of the one we are talking about, they only have the name in common. The sailors of Oman pass by the channel (of Berbera) then go on the sea of the Zanj to reach the island of Qanbalu, as we have mentioned . It has a mixed population of Muslims and Zanj idolater. The sailors of Oman think that the gulf of Beurberien, which they call the sea of Berberia and of the land of Jafonni (or Djafouna)(Ras Hafoun), is way bigger then we have said. The waves of this sea are as big as high mountains, the rollers are called blind because they grow into great mountains and open deep valleys between them.


 
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
One thing that needs to be stressed is that the early Muslim writers and later writers too had an astounding lack of bias when it came to admitting themselves to be thoughtfully defeated by African armites ect. Also Al-Masudi himself admitted that Yemeni and the Arabs learned archery from the "Nubians". Because of this there is not much reason to believe that these early writers were biased. I believe that the assumption that these writers would be biased is in itself an impediment to further research because people don't think to be skeptical or look into it more

There are many more accounts like the bellow that show the lack of bias. The author believes that the extreme honesty shown bellow makes the early Muslim sources more likely to be reliable when it comes to their other accounts and is a testament to their objectivity "and it also enhances considerably the chances of the reliability of their accounts, at least about the Muslim expansion in other fronts, and perhaps much more beyond that."

"The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam" by David Ayalon

http://books.google.com/books?id=LcsJosc239YC&lpg=PA18&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
The absolutely unambiguous evidence and unanimous agree of the early Muslim sources is that the Arabs abrupt stop was caused solely and exclusively by the superb military resistance of the Christian Nubians. That is what I call the Nubian Dam. The array of those early sources includes the two most important chronicles of early Islam, al-Tabari (d. 926) and al-Yaqubi (d. 905); the two best extant books on the Muslim conquests, al-Baladhuri (d. 892( and Ibn al-A tham al-Kufi (d. 926); the most central encyclopedic work of al-Masudi (d.956); and the two best early sources dedicated specifically to Egypt, Ibn Abd al-Hakim (d. 871) and al-Kindi (961).

On page 19 he quotes Al-Masudi The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)

Bellow on page 20:

This act carries a lot of weight for one cannot see any reason for the Arabs to praise the Nubians so highly, along with their admission of their own failure in the field of battle. At the same time it is a great tribute to the objectivity in the case of the Muslim sources, and it also enhances considerably the chances of the reliability of their accounts, at least about the Muslim expansion in other fronts, and perhaps much more beyond that.


 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Bob_01 aka rasol wrote:
quote:
I've been around the United States and most who identify themselves as Black look half-white.
Define "look half-white". What is the "half-white" look?


Notice also how this freak said "most". That sounds like something from one of those race loon forums. Where any slight deviation from the fictional look is to explained using mixture pseudoscience.


rasol, er umm Bob_01 you need to go away again and this time stay away.
 
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
Bob_01 aka rasol,


Why don't you give me the social circumstances of this so called admixture.


Socialogically your premise is dumb. With legalized segregation between two groups, those groups did not have or wish to have sex or produce children with each other.


Your postings get more and more bizarre with each login.


The next thing you will be expecting us to believe is that divorced people have more sex with each other than newlyweds.
 


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