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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:



Example of the Andman Island people:




As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

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This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

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You answered your own question, genius. The differences are due to non African gene flow, hence why north coastal Africans also exhibit intermediate body plans between Europeans and S.S.A'S. It's not climate adaptation. Sorry, close thread now.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ its not enough to explain their adaptive features.
 

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Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
^ Specifically what adaptive features are we talking about here Osirion?
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
^ Specifically what adaptive features are we talking about here Osirion?

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yeah what adaptive features ?

They have adapted the same way these "Coloured" people from south Africa have:

 

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Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
astenb posted:
---------------------------
---------------------------


I don't see what South Africans have to do with with Northern Africans.


Why don't you do the scholarly way and inform us of the point of your post.
 

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Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
 
A bunch of non-degreed dumb asses obsessed with race and not knowing the slightest of what they're talking about.


Who says the way a group of people look is because of climate or environment?


Somebody needs to educate you morons on natural selection of humans and also natural mutations of human genes.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ Who say climate and environment affects natural selection? Are you kidding me? You are joking right? So you haven't noticed how skin color is the result of UV radiation?

Come now, are you trying to be funny?
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by argyle104:
astenb posted:
---------------------------
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I don't see what South Africans have to do with with Northern Africans.


Why don't you do the scholarly way and inform us of the point of your post.

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From Tishkoff et al.



" We identified 14 ancestral population clusters in Africa that correlate with self-described ethnicity and shared cultural and/or linguistic properties. We observe high levels of mixed ancestry in most populations, reflecting historic migration events across the continent"

Mozabite:
-Niger Kordofanian (Orange)
-Cushitic (Purple)
-Eurasian (Blue)

Cape "Coloured" Mixed Ancestry:
-Niger Kordofanian (Orange)
-Cushitic (Purple)
-Eurasian (Blue)
-Khoisan (Green)

Both of these populations have KNOWN HISTORICAL and or Prehistorical Admixture. Cape "Coloured" Africans [With Enough admixture from Euros and Asians to view themselves as DISTINCT] share the same genetic clusters as the Mozabite with the addition of Khoisan Ancestry. Form this standpoint there is no "adaptation" to "North Africa". "Admixture" can easily explain the skin tone and phenotype of the Mozabites, they same way it explains that of the Cape "Coloured" peoples.

Conclusion:
Cape Coloured = Mixed Africans.
Mozabite = Heavily mixed Africans.
3 Ancestral components of that mixture overlaps in both populations:
-Niger Kordofanian (Orange)
-Cushitic (Purple)
-Eurasian (Blue)

They vary in frequency between both populations. Cape colored poeple recognize some of their Ancestry is from "Black Peoples". Mozabites and white people run from the fact and dont recognize it at all.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ According to your post the Mozabites are 1/2 Black African and yet many are very much the same as Europeans.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
That is not according to my post though, that is according to tishkoff.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ that means that they have climate adaptation rather than just simply admixture in order to account for their features. There is also sexual selection so that is just a bit too much to work out.

One cannot unscramble scrambled eggs.
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Never heard of coastal northwestern Africa serving as a LGM refugium for Europeans. While assemblages found in the region suggest that the region was inhabited earlier in the Upper Paleolithic, the oldest human remains in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic.
 

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Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
Osirion, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what adaptive features you are referring to, specifically identify these features, thanks.
 

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Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:
Never heard of coastal northwestern Africa serving as a LGM refugium for Europeans. While assemblages found in the region suggest that the region was inhabited earlier in the Upper Paleolithic, the oldest human remains in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
Osirion, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what adaptive features you are referring to, specifically identify these features, thanks.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:
To correct my earlier statement, I should say rather: "The oldest human remains with fully "modern" morphology [aside from non-morphological quantitative features like robusticity] in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic."

The better preserved of the Aterian specimens, while considered "modern", are claimed to host a combination of "plesiomorphic" and "modern" morphological traits.

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quote:

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Originally posted by zarahan:

^Can anyone post a recapped timeline for the settlement of North Africa? Something like:

80,000 BC- "Methchoid" types
50,000 BC- Migration by Iberian types
etc etc

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
[QUOTE]Data obtained during an ongoing dental investigation of African populations address two long-standing, hotly debated questions.

First, was there genetic continuity between Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and later northwest Africans (e.g., Capsians, Berbers, Guanche)?

Second, were skeletally-robust Iberomaurusians and northeast African Nubians variants of the same population?

Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed:

(1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied.

----------------------

Essentially there was a population of Ibero Maurusians that were not related to Cushitic people of the Nile. We know that the Capsian culture is Cushitic in origin. What we have is a mixture of populations as a result on Cushitic migration into NW Africa resulting in heterogenity.

Ibero-Maurusian are likely European people that took refuge in NW Africa. They mixed with Cushitic people. It is more about cultural anthropology than skeletal analysis. Ibero-Maurusian culture is connect to Europe where as the Capsian culture is connected to Kenya.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
Osirion, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what adaptive features you are referring to, specifically identify these features, thanks.

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You mean like Leucoderm?

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quote:

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In contrast, the **ancestral allele** associated with **dark pigmentation** has a shared high frequency in **sub- Saharan African and Island Melanesians**.A notable exception is the relatively lightly pigmented San population of Southern Africa where the **derived allele** predominates (93%), although this may be simply due to small sample size (n514). The distributions of the **derived and ancestral alleles** at TYR A192C, MATP C374G, and SLC24A5 A111G are consistent with the FST results suggesting strong Europeans pecific divergence at these loci. The *derived allele* at TYR, 192*A (previously linked with lighter
pigmentation [Shriver et al. 2003]), has a frequency of 38% among European populations but a frequency of only 14% among non-Europeans. The differences between Europeans and non-Europeans for the MATP 374*G and SLC24A5 111*A alleles (both derived alleles associated with lighter pigmentation) were even more striking (MATP European 5 87%; MATP non-European 5 17%; SLC24A5 European 5 100%; SLC24A5 non-European 5 46%). The frequency of the SLC24A5 111*A allele outside of Europe is largely accounted for by high frequencies in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan (ranging from 62% to 100%).

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quote:

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Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed:

(1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied.

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Supposed dental traits does not converge with the fact that said coastal northwestern specimens do not form some homogeneous cranial type, which a number of researchers had been compelled to acknowledge, despite attempts to force them into a preconceived taxonomic type(s) spanning several of some or the other of the above-mentioned.

As I pointed out here before, Briggs came up with four types, three of which were described as "Mediterranean" sub-types, and the remainder as a mixture of these "Mediterranean" sub-types, namely "Type A", "Type B", "Type C", and "Type D".

Chamla on the other hand, came up with two primary "types" and a derivative type namely, the "Mectha-Afalou", the "Mediterranean" types-- the "Protomediterranean"--and the "Mechtoids", respectively. The "Mechta-Afalou" were associated with the "Ibero-Maurusian" industry, while the latter two were associated with the "Capsian" industry, with the Mechtoids being representative of the Upper Capsian industry [which is interesting, considering that Chamla saw them as the "gracile" version of the "Mechta-Afalou" type, whom as noted, had been associated with Ibero-Maurusian industry]. The "Mechta-Afalou" were considered to be generally more robust than the latter Capsian groups.

Recalling another example, noting differences in the EpiPaleolithic and early Holocene cranial collection:



As we can see in the above, estimation is made that both specimens with no supposed "Negro" qualities and those with "Negro" qualities have been found in the Sudan. The same applies to the Maghreb. If these represented Europeans presumably from the Iberian region, how come we have such diversity that is far flung to the eastern portion of Africa; how come some supposedly have "Negro" like qualities about them, while others are claimed to not? Yet, how is it that despite such dichotomy, some insist that they represent a taxonomic type? And if the supposed "non-Negroid" types mentioned represented some Iberian group, why are they in of themselves also clearly varied? Moreover, where do we come across the same variety in the Iberian peninsula, presumably predating the African examples, along with their cultural precedents in Iberia? I have noticed much silence on these questions, yet still continue to come across those who speak of "Iberian" north Africans.

Note, another example showing distinctions in coastal northwestern African specimens, both recent, Neolithic and EpiPaleolithic...



Note the positions of Cro-Magnon I, the Algerian Neolithic, the composite "Taforalt and Afalou", the recent Algerians, Tunisians, and a composite "Berber" sample.

And from Brace et al. (2005)...

It is clear, however, that they [Basques] do not represent a survival of the kind of craniofacial form indicated by Cro-Magnon any more than do the Canary Islanders, nor does either sample tie in with the Berbers of North Africa as has previously been claimed (37, 44-45).

...

To test the analysis shown in Fig. 3, Cro-Magnon, represented by the x in Fig. 4, was removed from the European Upper Palaeolithic sample and run as a single individual. Interestingly enough, Cro-Magnon is not close to any more recent sample. Clearly Cro-Magnon is not the same as the Basque or Canary Island samples.

quote:

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Essentially there was a population of Ibero Maurusians that were not related to Cushitic people of the Nile. We know that the Capsian culture is Cushitic in origin. What we have is a mixture of populations as a result on Cushitic migration into NW Africa resulting in heterogenity.

Ibero-Maurusian are likely European people that took refuge in NW Africa. They mixed with Cushitic people.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

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No, all it tells us is why geographically proximate populations in northern Africa have lighter skin akin to Europeans.

It tells us how much this allele associated with lighterskin is present in these populations(62-100%), but not how much European genes are actually found in Berber speakers, don't confuse the two.

It implies that an allele for lighter skin was passed on to geographically proximate populations in northern Africa through said admixture, admixture as Tishkoff notes, which is all that's needed.

From there, this allele most likely spread through sexual selection and genetic drift, not because more admixture from Europeans.

As we can see from Tishkoff it's not there as heavily present as one would think, but the allele is, which can easily spread in a population due to sexual selection and genetic drift without any further admixture from Europeans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:



Example of the Andman Island people:




As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.

---

OMG I don't know whether to laugh or cry; the longer some people are here the less they absorb information I guess. The genetics of the Berbers has been dealt with over and over again on this forum. Am I missing something or is there something about human beings intermixing that Osirion and certain other "Africans" can not accept!

Please tell me he did not just claim Andaman Islanders and Ainu were "closely related" genetically.

Osirion - I'm trying not to be sarcastic so I will just add that this is the first time I've ever seen a posting here or for that matter on any blog in which everything stated in scientific fashion is demonstrably wrong!
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by argyle104:
A bunch of non-degreed dumb asses obsessed with race and not knowing the slightest of what they're talking about.


Who says the way a group of people look is because of climate or environment?


Somebody needs to educate you morons on natural selection of humans and also natural mutations of human genes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Doc - you are wasting your time, osirion has a self actualization agenda; and no amount of logic or data is going to sway him. So be kind, tell him that the White and mixed-race people of North Africa are really full fledged Berbers and Arabs - then maybe he will go away.

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I honestly don't know why Mind, Dana, Doc, Explorer or any rational thinking person would waste time on Orion??
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Jari-Ankhamun - osirion has become rather pathetic of late: he seems to have developed some deep-seated need or desire to deny Black heritage.

Before, he used to just misrepresent facts, but now he just flat-out lies (in the finest tradition of a White person) can you say WANNABE!!!

Unfortunately for him, like all the others of his ilk, he is also rather stupid. He uses examples that prove the REVERSE!

dana marniche - osirion was quite correct in saying that Ainu and Andaman Islanders are closely connected genetically - they share the Haplogroup "D"


Haplogroup D (Y-DNA)

The Ainu people of Japan is notable for possessing almost exclusively Haplogroup D chromosomes In human genetics, Haplogroup D (M174) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup.D is believed to have originated in Africa some 50,000 years before present. Along with haplogroup E, D contains the distinctive YAP polymorphism, which indicates their common ancestry. Both D and E also contain the M168 change, which is present in all Y-chromosome haplogroups except A and B. Like haplogroup C, D is believed to represent a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia and thence northward to populate East Asia.

It is found today at high frequency among populations in Tibet, the Japanese archipelago, and the Andaman Islands, though curiously not in India. The Ainu of Japan and the Jarawa and Onge of the Andaman Islands are notable for possessing almost exclusively Haplogroup D chromosomes, although Haplogroup C chromosomes also occur among the Ainu at a frequency of approximately 10%, similar to the Japanese. Haplogroup D chromosomes are also found at low to moderate frequencies among all the populations of Central and Northeast Asia as well as the Han and Miao-Yao peoples of China and among several minority populations of Yunnan that speak Tibeto-Burman languages and reside in close proximity to the Tibetans. Unlike haplogroup C, it did not travel from Asia to the New World.


BUT WHO ARE THE AINU???

The Jomon (35,000 B.C.) and later the Ainu (13,000 B.C.) were the original Black settlers of Japan, they were part of the second Out of Africa migration circa 55,000 B.C. They were invaded and conquered by a Mongol tribe called the "Yayoi" (modern Japanese) in 350 B.C.

Jomon Mask


From Wiki:

The Ainu are an indigenous ethnic group of Japan and Russian Federation. Historically they spoke the Ainu language and related varieties and lived in Hokkaidō, the Kuril Islands, and much of Sakhalin. Most of those who identify themselves as Ainu still live in this same region, though the exact number of living Ainu is unknown. This is due to ethnic issues in Japan resulting in those with Ainu backgrounds hiding their identities and confusion over mixed heritages. Official estimates of the population are of around 25,000, whilst unofficially the number is upwards of 200,000 people.


Intermarriages between Japanese and Ainu were actively promoted by the Ainu to lessen the chances of discrimination against their offspring. As a result, many Ainu are indistinguishable from their Japanese neighbors.


Here is what even a mixed Ainu, looked like around 1900.
(can you say Black man)?


 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Lion cub - I hope that you are paying attention; like osirion - your "Please don't let me have Black ancestors" threads are pathetic and silly.

BTW - If you guys want to be White, nobody cares!
The issue is your lies and misrepresentations to justify it.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

---

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

---

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:



Example of the Andman Island people:




As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.

---

OMG I don't know whether to laugh or cry; the longer some people are here the less they absorb information I guess. The genetics of the Berbers has been dealt with over and over again on this forum. Am I missing something or is there something about human beings intermixing that Osirion and certain other "Africans" can not accept!

Please tell me he did not just claim Andaman Islanders and Ainu were "closely related" genetically.

Osirion - I'm trying not to be sarcastic so I will just add that this is the first time I've ever seen a posting here or for that matter on any blog in which everything stated in scientific fashion is demonstrably wrong!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Lion cub - I hope that you are paying attention; like osirion - your "Please don't let me have Black ancestors" threads are pathetic and silly.

BTW - If you guys want to be White, nobody cares!
The issue is your lies and misrepresentations to justify it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Lion cub - I hope that you are paying attention; like osirion - your "Please don't let me have Black ancestors" threads are pathetic and silly.

BTW - If you guys want to be White, nobody cares!
The issue is your lies and misrepresentations to justify it.

---

I think I said that Bantu and Berbers are related. However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:


You are truly worthy of disgust.

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Finally something truthful coming out of your mouth Mike111, see what happens when you keep your Turkish obsession at bay..

Progress!! Mike111 Progress!!
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:


You are truly worthy of disgust.

---

Finally something truthful coming out of your mouth Mike111, see what happens when you keep your Turkish obsession at bay..

Progress!! Mike111 Progress!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

---

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

---

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

---

If it was sufficiently detrimental it would be filtered out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
Period. Don't need a bunch of double talk for that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.

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Jeeeeeez, you can't be serious, are you really that much of a dullard?

So you're telling me the derived SLC24A5 111*A allele associated with lighterskin ranging from 62-100% in some of these geographically proximate populations in northern Africa is not sufficient enough to explain their lighterskin?

Did you ever graduate, from anywhere? LOL
 

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Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Jari-Ankhamun - This MUST be said:

Do you kids have any idea of just how fuching stupid you all are??

You want to make snide comments and argue sh1t that you have absolutely NO knowledge of or information on.

The problem is, these are important subjects that you ass-holes are fuching around with. The suffering of REAL Berbers in North Africa is nothing to make light of. Yet in your mental laziness and just plain stupidity that is exactly what you are doing.

Here is a heads-up ass-hole;
read this Wiki article about Tunisia, even this will give you an idea what those people have gone through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia

---

Mike111 Why so hostile??
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
So osirion, tell me:

When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Arabs - Which they do.




Or When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Berbers - Which they do.




DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IT???

If so, then you need to do more reading!!!
 

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Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
So osirion, tell me:

When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Arabs - Which they do.




Or When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Berbers - Which they do.




DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IT???

If so, then you need to do more reading!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^osirion - You probably detect a certain disdain in my tone towards you. But it is really not disdain, it is more like disgust.

In countries like Tunisia, the indigenous Blacks have almost been depopulated, and driven into the deserts south.

In the place of their Black societies, the White invaders have established anti-Black Police states in their countries, to insure that they don't come back.

ANTI-BLACK POLICE STATES IN AFRICA!!!!
(Remind anyone of South Africa)?

Yet rather than show some semblance of sympathy for the terrible wrong done to these people, you join in trying to steal their identity and history.

You are truly worthy of disgust.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

---

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

---

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

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If it was sufficiently detrimental it would be filtered out.

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How so? And says who, you? LOL.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Period. Don't need a bunch of double talk for that.

---

So stop doing it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.

---

Jeeeeeez, you can't be serious, are you really that much of a dullard?

So you're telling me the derived SLC24A5 111*A allele associated with lighterskin ranging from 62-100% in some of these geographically proximate populations in northern Africa is not sufficient enough to explain their lighterskin?

Did you ever graduate, from anywhere? LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

---

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

---

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

---

If it was sufficiently detrimental it would be filtered out.

---

How so? And says who, you? LOL.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Period. Don't need a bunch of double talk for that.

---

So stop doing it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.

---

Jeeeeeez, you can't be serious, are you really that much of a dullard?

So you're telling me the derived SLC24A5 111*A allele associated with lighterskin ranging from 62-100% in some of these geographically proximate populations in northern Africa is not sufficient enough to explain their lighterskin?

Did you ever graduate, from anywhere? LOL

---

The question is, how can it have such a high frequency in people that are 50% African. Is that not evidence of recessive genes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
That is my problem. The gene must have been rather advantagous to have reached that high of a concentration.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
So regardles of these peoples lineage they are predominantly non-African in terms of gene expression.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Just explain this: how can you be predominantly one thing but have genes that are predominantly another?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
*sigh*

Osirion, what you seem to be doing is equating the admixture noted by uni-parentals with lighterskin when in fact that's just not how it works, what don't you get about that? This seems to be your problem. Understand, now, the SLC24A5 111*A allele which is not a maternal or paternal haplogroup, is what is associated with lighter skin and it's noted to range from 62-100% in geographically proximate places in north Africa, (which means not all of north Africa) the middle east and also Pakistan, are we to believe from your logic that these peoples gene expression is European as well when their uni-parentals say otherwise?

A man can carry an African Y chromosome and still carry this derived allele for lighterskin, one doesn't affect the other and vice versa with a female in Africa.

And, if you will show me how pale skin in Africa would be advantageous?

P.S. ;"Amazingh people and climate adaptation"

^^You have been shown that there was no climate adaptation and that these lighterskinned individuals in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa actually acquired this lightskin from Europeans. No counter evidence from you so far. So it's safe to say, case closed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
*sigh*

Osirion, what you seem to be doing is equating the admixture noted by uni-parentals with lighterskin when in fact that's just not how it works, what don't you get about that? This seems to be your problem. Understand, now, the SLC24A5 111*A allele which is not a maternal or paternal haplogroup, is what is associated with lighter skin and it's noted to range from 62-100% in geographically proximate places in north Africa, (which means not all of north Africa) the middle east and also Pakistan, are we to believe from your logic that these peoples gene expression is European as well when their uni-parentals say otherwise?

A man can carry an African Y chromosome and still carry this derived allele for lighterskin, one doesn't affect the other and vice versa with a female in Africa.

And, if you will show me how pale skin in Africa would be advantageous?

P.S. ;"Amazingh people and climate adaptation"

^^You have been shown that there was no climate adaptation and that these lighterskinned individuals in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa actually acquired this lightskin from Europeans. No counter evidence from you so far. So it's safe to say, case closed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
*sigh*

Osirion, what you seem to be doing is equating the admixture noted by uni-parentals with lighterskin when in fact that's just not how it works, what don't you get about that? This seems to be your problem. Understand, now, the SLC24A5 111*A allele which is not a maternal or paternal haplogroup, is what is associated with lighter skin and it's noted to range from 62-100% in geographically proximate places in north Africa, (which means not all of north Africa) the middle east and also Pakistan, are we to believe from your logic that these peoples gene expression is European as well when their uni-parentals say otherwise?

A man can carry an African Y chromosome and still carry this derived allele for lighterskin, one doesn't affect the other and vice versa with a female in Africa.

And, if you will show me how pale skin in Africa would be advantageous?

P.S. ;"Amazingh people and climate adaptation"

^^You have been shown that there was no climate adaptation and that these lighterskinned individuals in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa actually acquired this lightskin from Europeans. No counter evidence from you so far. So it's safe to say, case closed.

---

It is actually rather an astonishing amount of mixture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
So incredibly remarkable. Its is recessive and yet expressed at such a high degree from people with a high amount of East African heritage.

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And they don't have a high amount of non African admixture indicated by uni-parental markers?

Osirion, five years later and you still don't get it, just give it up already at this rate you'll never learn.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ Well I actually said the very same thing about modern day Egyptians.

1, That culture and sexual selection are related.

2, If you adopt a culture then you also adopt a different concept of beauty.

3, Demic diffusion of culture can result in a phenotype change without admixture being the only source.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ Well I actually said the very same thing about modern day Egyptians.

1, That culture and sexual selection are related.

2, If you adopt a culture then you also adopt a different concept of beauty.

3, Demic diffusion of culture can result in a phenotype change without admixture being the only source.

---

quote:

---

The trend in the literature so far has between towards
younger age estimations for E-M81. Bosch et al. (2001)
estimated 1.5-4.3 kya for E-M81, but later Luis et al.
(2004) estimated 2 kya, while noting that the small amount of Egyptian E-M81 seemed older. Semino et al. (2004) estimated 8.6 kya. Arredi et al. (2004) estimated 4.2 kya. Cruciani et al. (2004) estimated 5.6 kya, but more recently in Cruciani et al. (2007), the authors show concerns at this calculation technique, implying that estimates be revised downwards to less than 5.6 kya. For E-V65 Cruciani et al. (2007) estimated approximately 4 kya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:



Example of the Andman Island people:




As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.

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OMG I don't know whether to laugh or cry; the longer some people are here the less they absorb information I guess. The genetics of the Berbers has been dealt with over and over again on this forum. Am I missing something or is there something about human beings intermixing that Osirion and certain other "Africans" can not accept!

Please tell me he did not just claim Andaman Islanders and Ainu were "closely related" genetically.

Osirion - I'm trying not to be sarcastic so I will just add that this is the first time I've ever seen a posting here or for that matter on any blog in which everything stated in scientific fashion is demonstrably wrong!

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Genetic testing of the Ainu people has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D2.[22] Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelago including Okinawa. The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean.[23]

--------------

This makes them related.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ I think I get it.

Infanticide. It reminds me of the Moses legend.

One of the reasons why Moses was spared was because of his light skin. Light skinned Mothers purposely selecting light skin babies.

Not just sexual selection but evolution via an old form of birth control.

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You were right, Jari. There is no use. I tried to understand but now I can't tell if he is just trying to be funny or not.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ The Ainu and the Adaman Islanders are in the same haplogroup. It is a sufficiently rare haplogroup showing that they are "CLOSELY" related to each other. However, they look nothing alike. Like the North African, the Ainu and Andaman Islanders do not have the same kind of mtDNA. In fact the Ainu are a good example of North African people compared to the Bantu.


North African people and the Bantu share the same yDNA - Haplogroup E (though the Ainu and Andaman Island people share the exact same haplogroup).

The difference between the NW Africans and the Bantu is on the mtDNA side. The same is true for the Ainu and the Andaman Islanders - different mtDNA.

Now it was my position that this was due to climate adaptation and not admixture. However, it would appear that in both cases we have admixture and climate adaptation to deal with.

In the case of the Ainu, they are actually lighter in skin color than the admixture group that is part of their genetic heritage. So admixture does not explain them. Climate adaptation and bottlenecks is a better explaination. This is not true for the Berbers. Admixture is a better explaination, however, certain phenotype genes haven't been sufficient vetted in terms of an explaination of why they are in such high frequency.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ The Ainu and the Adaman Islanders are in the same haplogroup. It is a sufficiently rare haplogroup showing that they are "CLOSELY" related to each other. However, they look nothing alike. Like the North African, the Ainu and Andaman Islanders do not have the same kind of mtDNA. In fact the Ainu are a good example of North African people compared to the Bantu.


North African people and the Bantu share the same yDNA - Haplogroup E (though the Ainu and Andaman Island people share the exact same haplogroup).

The difference between the NW Africans and the Bantu is on the mtDNA side. The same is true for the Ainu and the Andaman Islanders - different mtDNA.

Now it was my position that this was due to climate adaptation and not admixture. However, it would appear that in both cases we have admixture and climate adaptation to deal with.

In the case of the Ainu, they are actually lighter in skin color than the admixture group that is part of their genetic heritage. So admixture does not explain them. Climate adaptation and bottlenecks is a better explaination. This is not true for the Berbers. Admixture is a better explaination, however, certain phenotype genes haven't been sufficient vetted in terms of an explaination of why they are in such high frequency.

---

You would do better to quote directly from the sources like everybody else. You are misunderstanding what haplotypes are about, Osirion.
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by astenb:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ Well I actually said the very same thing about modern day Egyptians.

1, That culture and sexual selection are related.

2, If you adopt a culture then you also adopt a different concept of beauty.

3, Demic diffusion of culture can result in a phenotype change without admixture being the only source.

---

To # 3: YES it CAN, but how long would it TAKE? What YOU are describing in #3 has already happened with the de-pigmentation in humans of certain climates. We already KNOW how long this takes. It it takes much longer than a few thousand years.

Amazigh peoples as a group have not been separated nor are they distinct as far as the age of the population for something like that to occur. We have some evidence to back this up too.

-Why is the most common and autochthonous male markers of this population: E-M81, E-M78(v65) so young?

-Also if the population is been there long enough to have phenotype change including skin color change which takes a VERY long time (and its not even advantageous in that area BTW) Why out of 14 distinct population clusters of Africa would they not have their own? Hmm......."Western Bantu" genetically distinct from "Eastern Bantu" who in turn are distinct from "Niger Kordifanian" who are distinct from Fulani?................And from all of this the poor North Africans who supposedly have been separated by 30,40,50, or 60 thousand years or whatever bullshit they what you to believe, had not a genetic cluster of their own?.........Yet the Bantu showed an ancestry distinction between East and West even though their expansion happened only 5000 years ago?

It just doesn't make any sense. You are trying to make things too complicated.
I would suggest to read the Supporting material.

1 -It shows quite clear that the North African sample is "Mixed African." - You can compare it with the "Cape Mixed Ancestry" sample or even the "African American" samples.

2 -Looking at the AGES of NRY Chromosomes in North Africa shows they are "quite recent" from the Horn/Nile Valley Africans
1 + 2 = "Quite Recent" + "Mixed Africans"

Any Bones that they dig up in north Africa attempting to show continuity is just speculation until they start pulling Y-dna out of it, why?

quote:

---

The trend in the literature so far has between towards
younger age estimations for E-M81. Bosch et al. (2001)
estimated 1.5-4.3 kya for E-M81, but later Luis et al.
(2004) estimated 2 kya, while noting that the small amount of Egyptian E-M81 seemed older. Semino et al. (2004) estimated 8.6 kya. Arredi et al. (2004) estimated 4.2 kya. Cruciani et al. (2004) estimated 5.6 kya, but more recently in Cruciani et al. (2007), the authors show concerns at this calculation technique, implying that estimates be revised downwards to less than 5.6 kya. For E-V65 Cruciani et al. (2007) estimated approximately 4 kya.

---

Keep in mind the Mozabite sample was 80%E-M81 10% E(xE3b). I know that because Tishkoff didnt take the sample herself, she used an existing sample that is from a different study she referenced.

They seem to be doing everything possible to avoid the 2 key points regarding North African Ancestry:
1 - A recent population "expansion" or "replacement" from the East. Especially True of the male side.

2 - The Phylogenetic history of E-M81 being a SUB MUTATION of Another marker E-M35 that has an origin in Sub Saharan Africa. Notice they speak of E-M81 (and E-M78)as if it exists in a bubble separate from its parent marker E-M35....but we know better.

---

quote:

---

What study did Tishkoff use to get the Mozabite sample?

---