There is so much Afrocentric rubbish on this forum about ancient Greece, so i thought i would expose the truth on this matter.
The Negro in Ancient Greece
Two initial points to consider:
1. No one denies that there were Negro populations in ancient Greece, as there is a classical record that documents them.
2. The following article was written by Frank Snowden (d. 2007), an African-American Classicist and one of the foremost authorities on blacks in classical antiquity.
After reading this, several facts are clear:
1. As early as the 8th century BC - the ancient Greeks physically distinguished themselves to the Negro or Ethiopian racial type in their writings. 2. The ancient Greeks were not black. 3. There were small populations of blacks in ancient Greece, but they were not considered to be Greek, but foreign. 4. Blackness of skin was attributed to the Ethiopians of the far south, and the ancient Greeks did not have dark skin.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Yes Cassiterides the Greeks never claimed to be blacks,but they did claimed as part of their ancestry in the form of Kadmos and Egyptos, the Danaë Black and smitten by the sun,this is backed up by Bio-anthropology in Angel's Greek and Anatolian first farmers and genetics Larry Angel (1972): "one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians..."
Read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xc0AXynjGFAJ:egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dhist%26action%3Ddisplay%26thread%3D99+Greek+and+Anatolian+fi rst+farmers+Christopher+Ehret&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk#ixzz1C30WtOwx And Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the “older” Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2001.057002118.x/abstract Now as far as the pre-Hellenes go According to Hodel-Hoenes & Warburton register 1: the prince of Punt register 2: princes of Crete and Mediterranean islands register 3: princes of southern lands and the Antiu (cavern dwellers) register 4: princes of Retenu and northern lands clear to the far north register 5: captive children of southern and northern lands for workshops Read more: ]http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=egyto&action=display&thread=95&page=2#ixzz1C33LxSQA Now despite all the above I still would not proclaim the classical Greeks blacks although they undoubtedly carry black ancestry.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Original Greeks were Black African people.
Aeschylus describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" or dark skinned and that he originally lived in Africa.
There are many light skinned Africans who have never mixed with Europeans. Apollo is chrysaeros 'bearing a golden sword'
Artemis is eustephanos which has no relation to fair
Neptune is kyanochaites 'bluish or Blackish like dark deep waves of the ocean
Achilles is xanthos 'brown'
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
•
According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians .Libya is in Africa.
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them. The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe
In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa.
The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
As I noted earlier the sea referes to the deep waves of the ocean which are blackest or dark. The Pelasgic race decends from Inachus the river god and son of Oceanus. The son of Inachus was Phoroneus. Pelasgus was the son of Argus. All of these individuals were Black like the deep waves of the ocean
Xanthos means brown stupid racist. Hom er respected his Black brothers. That's why he has Zeus visit Ethiopia to dine with other Negroes. Thus Aeschylus wrote: "And Thou shalt bear a child of Zeus begotten, Epapos, 'Touch born', swarthy of hue".
This shows the Greeks were not white. You can not find any dark skinned Europeans with Blond hair. These people were not whites.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Genetic evidence
Arnaiz-Villena A, et al. Tissue Antigens. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.2001 Feb;57(2):118-27 Arnaiz-Villena A, et al.The correlation between languages and genes: the Usko-Mediterranean peoples. Hum Immunol. 2001 Sep;62(9):1051-61 Arnaiz-Villena A, et al.Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective. Tissue Antigens.2002 Aug;60(2):111-21
• Here is a study confirming the Arnaiz-Villena findings: HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans European Journal of Medical Genetics, Volume 49, Issue 1, January-February 2006, Pages 43-56, by A. Hajjej, S. Hmida, H. Kaabi, A. Dridi, A. Jridi, A. El Gaa1ed and K. Boukef
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
•
Xanthos means red-yellow which equals brown: a group of colors between red and yellow in hue that are medium to low in lightness and low to moderate in saturation
• The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
• The first migrants to Crete were Garamantes according to Classics. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black. The Garamante lived in the Fezzan/Libya, not Turkey. The first AMH in Europe carried hg M, not R1b. The whites did not enter Greece until after 800BC from Asia minor.
Linguistic
• The Pelasgians did not speak Greek they spoke Achaioi or Achaean. West Greek was spoken by the Dorian the Ionians spoke a dialect of East Greek called Aeolic. Dr.Anna M. Davies,says "less than 40% of the words which have an Indo-European etymology".Davies, said 52.2 % Greek terms in Chantraine's Dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque have unknown etymology. This is due to the African origin of Greece.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''Achilles is xanthos 'brown''' ===
Firstly xanthos means yellow, and it was mostly only applied to hair colour not skin colour.
Aνθος/Xanthós/Xanthos/Xanthus
In ancient Greek Xanthos (άνθος) = a shade of yellow, blonde, gold.
A Homeric Dictionary for Schools and Colleges, 1891):
‘‘ξανθός (xanthos): ''reddish-yellow, blond or auburn (flavus).’’
Xantho- Xan"tho- A combining form from Greek xanqo`s yellow. Xanthic Xan"thic adjective [ Greek xanqo`s yellow: confer French xanthique .] 1. Tending toward a yellow colour’’
Achilles is described as ''sandy haired'' i.e blonde (Iliad, I. 207).
Achilles is described as white skinned (leukodi) by Homer (Iliad, 11.570):
''...and himself stood between Trojans and Achaeans, battling furiously. And the spears hurled by bold hands were some of them lodged in his great shield, as they sped onward, and many, ere ever they reached his white body(leukodi), stood fixed midway in the earth, fain to glut themselves with flesh.''
leukodi/leuko/leukon/leukos meaning:
A. white. B. of the human skin, white, fair
- Henry George Liddell. A Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.
Yet virtually none of the ancient Greek or Trojan Gods or figures are described as melas, but always Leukos (white).
Aphrodite is described always as pale white (leukon) skinned:
"…her soft neck and snow-white skinned breasts” - Homeric Hymn VI to Aphrodite
From Euripides we also have a quote, describing Dionysus as white skinned:
[Pentheus addresses Dionysus:] “Your body is not ill-formed, stranger, for women's purposes . . . For your hair is long, not through wrestling, scattered over your cheeks, full of desire; and you have a white skin from careful preparation, hunting after Aphrodite by your beauty not exposed to strokes of the sun, but beneath the shade.” - Bacchae, 455
Enjoy:
Apollo is always depicted as blonde in ancient greek art:
More on Apollo:
In his elegy Eunomia, Tyrtaeos wrote around 600 BC:
"The love of money and naught else shall ruin Sparta. ... Thus hath golden-haired Apollo prophesied from his rich shrine."
(quoted in Ancient Greece: Myth and History, by H B Cotterill, 2004, p.187).
Aristophanes in his Birds also wrote Apollo (epithet: Phoebus) was golden haired:
''...right up to the throne of Zeus, where Phoebus listens to you, Phoebus with his golden hair.''
Chrysocomes means ''of the golden locks'' not a sword.
Pindar also wrote in Isthmean, XII: ''But grant to us, Loxias, luxuriant with your golden hair.'' (Loxias was another epithet for Apollo).
Atalanta (Aelian, Varia Historia, XIII. 1):
''Her hair was golden, not due to feminine sophistication, dyes, or applications, but the colour was natural.''
Eros (Anacreon, Frg. 358: ‘‘...again golden-haired Eros’’).
Harmonia (Medea, 834: ''...were brought to birth by Harmonia with the golden hair'', Strabo (Geographica, 1 . 2) also notes of a tomb of blonde haired Harmonia in Illyria: ''..beside the tomb-stone of blonde Harmonia''
Jason The Argonautica of Apollonius tells us that
"Jason was a handsome northern aristocrat with long blond hair ...."
quoted by Harvard Archaeologist Mauricio Obregón in Beyond the Sea (NY: The Modern Library, 2001), citing the Argonautica.)
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa.'' =========
And yet Io, the mother of Epaphus is physically described as white skinned.
Ovid (Metamorphoses, 1. 712 ff):
''And now imperial Juno, pacified, permitted Io to resume her form,— at once the hair fell from her snowy sides;the horns absorbed, her dilate orbs decreased;the opening of her jaws contracted; hands appeared and shoulders; and each transformed hoof became five nails. And every mark or form that gave the semblance of a heifer changed,except her fair white skin''
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
So-called scholars can say what they wish about the appearance of the ancient Greeks of Homer's Illiad, for instance. But, those contemporary with those times leave us, among other things images found in the following:
Wide nose does not always automatically mean negro ancestry. The above Dane is fully white.
You also said the following:
''While the newcomers colonists i.e suitors…were said to have flowing hair.''
Nope that's false, we are told quite clear that the native Greek populations were always straight haired.
The ancient Greeks knew they were straight haired (ἴθυ-θριξ , τρι^χος), as well as other northern populations, while in sharp contrast the western ethiopians (Black Africans) woolly haired. Aristotle for example wrote (Gen. An. 5.3.782B):
‘‘Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for they themselves and the environing air are moist, whereas the Aethiopians and men in the hottest countries are curly-haired…’’
Long straight hair was worn by the Spartans from the age of puberty (Plutarch, Lyc. 16).
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''Zeus dined with blameless ethiopians'' ====
There were two separate lands called Ethiopia (Aethiopia/Aithiopia) in Greek myth. The first and better known out of the two was placed in modern Lebanon (ancient Phoenicia), Arabia, Iran or India (the east) and was often called eastern Ethiopia to distinguish itself from the lesser known western Ethiopia.
According to the distinguished lexicographer William Smith in his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1849):
‘‘(Eastern "Aithiopia") and sub-saharan Africa (Western "Aithiopia"), two realms which were believed to lie in the farthest south along the shore of the Ocean-stream.’’
From Homer and Strabo (Od, 1. 22; Geo, 1. 1. 6) we are also informed there were two lands called Ethiopia, one east, and one west:
''Now Poseidon had gone off to the Ethiopians, who are at the world's end, and lie in two halves, the one looking West and the other East''
Consider the following ancient sources which place eastern Ethiopia outside of Africa, starting with a preface of Appian's Foreign Wars:
‘‘…as one sails up the Nile, as far as eastern Ethiopia’’
Clearly eastern Ethiopia was considered north of Egypt (up the Nile) and did not sit in Africa.
This is also found in the major work of Thucydides (2. 48):
‘‘...in the parts of Ethiopia above Egypt…’’
The Ethiopians described by Homer were not Black Africans, but were inhabitants of the Middle-East.
Posidonius placed the Ethiopians Zeus visited in Mesopotamia (Vol. 2, Posidonius, Cambridge University Press, 1999, I. G. Kidd, p. 955).
So the ethiopians Zeus visited were not black, but were straight haired Asiatics according to Herodotus.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
The Red Pink Cagots:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Haemoglobin does not appear under dark skin, only light skin types. Hence why the peoples of Europe have been called ruddy or red for centuries.
Only fair white skin can be sunburnt red as well, dark does not turn red.
''Redlegs was a term used to refer to the class of poor whites that lived on colonial Barbados, St. Vincent, Grenada and a few other Caribbean islands...According to folk etymology, the name is derived from the effects of the tropical sun on their fair-skinned legs.
''Originally used in reference to poor, white farmers, Redneck is historically a derogatory slang term to refer to working class Southerners in the United States...probably derived from individuals having a red neck caused by working outdoors in the sun.
''Let he children of Pelops perish when it comes to a comparison with the shoulder of Perseus! for beautiful as he is and ruddy of face'' - Philostratus Elder, Imagines, I
''So he was lifted by the dancing feet of the others, with red skin, his whole face emitting ruddy rays and shining between, them, the very image of the crescent moon.'' - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 18. 93
''...who is named with the name of this land, ruddy Bacchus to whom Bacchants cry'' - Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus, 210
''But ruddy Ceres in mid heat is mown, And in mid heat the parched ears are bruised'' - Virgil, Georgics 1. 287
Rosy-fingered (ῥοδο-δάκτυλος) was an epithet for Eos.
Ruddy was also applied to physically describe ordinary Greek (and Roman) citizens:
''TRACHALIO Have you seen to-day, while you've been standing here, any young man, of courageous aspect, ruddy, stout, of genteel appearance, come by this way, who was taking with him three men in scarfs, with swords?'' - T. Maccius Plautus, Rudens 2.2
''PAMPHILUS Then I'll tell you how to know it; a huge fellow, ruddy, with curly hair, fat, with gray eyes and freckled countenance.'' - P. Terentius Afer (Terence), Hecyra III. 4
Most Roman emperors were also described as ''ruddy''.
Suetonius describing Emperor Domitian:
''He was tall in stature, his face modest, and very ruddy; he had large eyes, but was dim-sighted; naturally graceful in his person, particularly in his youth..''
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
The Greek word for black i thought was "melanchros". There were medium light and dark complected "melanchros" people too.
They did not consider themselves black but i'm pretty sure *they* considered *most* Aethiopes black and that there were near eastern black ethiopians.
Now, as far as "up the Nile" goes, going downstream the Nile flows North. Going upriver you go South.
The Egyptian delta is North of much of Arabia. I say this not attempting to deny that there was an Eastern Ethiopia outside of Africa and possibly even reaching further North than Africa's Maghreb. Which, the Maghreb itself a "Western Ethiopia", was home to a diverse bunch of Ethiopians (including white ones). The fact white Ethiopians exist makes sense given that up to that point whenever whites entered what is today "Africa" whether as slaves or invaders they seemed to assimilate into African culture. And there are ancient "Egyptian" depictions of creamy toned folks living to the West but with dress different from the Asiatics to the East / North.
Ethiopia (a word of Greek derivation) may have came the AE (ancient egyptian) word for "frontier" but then again they didn't call inner Europe Ethiopia.
quote:Cass wrote:
‘‘…as one sails up the Nile, as far as eastern Ethiopia’’
Clearly eastern Ethiopia was considered north of Egypt (up the Nile) and did not sit in Africa.
What i'm wondering is the context of that citation.
By the way, and i'm not for the "Roman's were black" cry even though there were African and or black rulers slaves etc:
About Ruddy -- the red thing. Whites can have a red complexion yes but they aren't the only ones people've ever called red. My little bro was called red as a babe cuz he was real red blooded -- any emotion could cause him to turn REALLY red for a black person and he's like McNabb-Will Smith's range of color (medium). In the South light skinned black folk are called red bones and in sub-Saharan Africa people and groups are called red. Ancient Egyptians called both "Middle Eastern" and "Libyan" folk red.
I'm not saying the "ruddy" complected folk you mentioned looked like Wesley Snipes but they didn't all have to be albino white either.
One question though. My memory's foggy (more like non-existent); how do we know again that they ACTUALLY differed between the two Ethiopias? Or is it us in this modern day and age that do so?
Posted by Spiralman (Member # 16230) on :
Where is the great Ancient Greece of Africa? Its strange how these Afrocrazed Negroes insist that they created so many things outside their own yard yet in their own yard we see virtually nothing of the Negro. No art, sculpture, architecture, nation nothing. Something is very wrong here.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Kemetian civ is the Greco-Roman civ of Africa. And you're a retard to say there was no art, sculpture nation or anything, and to ancient nation nutt-hug? You build that civilization? Ta fwog outta here
-
You gotta admit ^that mohawk is badass. Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''One question though. My memory's foggy (more like non-existent); how do we know again that they ACTUALLY differed between the two Ethiopias? Or is it us in this modern day and age that do so?'' =====
Because the cult of Zeus was in Mesopotamia and the Middle-east, not Africa. So the Ethiopia Zeus and the Greeks visited was obviously where they had colonies or a presence.
The Greeks had no colonies or communication with the peoples of far South Africa. So there had to have been two Ethiopias.
Also if you see the quote i pasted, we are told by Herodotus that both the Ethiopians looked different. The ethiopians of the far south were wooly haired while the ones to the north outside of Africa were straight haired.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''And you're a retard to say there was no art, sculpture nation or anything, and to ancient nation nutt-hug? You build that civilization? Ta fwog outta here'' ====
They had some stuff, but nothing compared to the great heights of Rome, Greece etc.
You know black sub-saharan africans couldn't even write to record their own history...
Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Who recorded the myths and legends of the black tribes across Africa? White Europeans did from around the 19th century...
I mean look how quickly Africa was colonised, europeans had guns and cannons while africans had wooden spears...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote: Originally posted by cassiterides:
Most ancient Greek Gods etc are ruddy:
Most like who? Athene the mother of the gods? Here is Athene:
MYTH NO. 8 –THE GREEK MYTHS: VOLUME 1
THE BIRTH OF ATHENE
According to the Pelasgians, the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya, where she was found and nurtured by the three nymphs of Libya, who dress in goat-skins. As a girl she killed her play-mate, Pallas, by accident, while they were engaged in friendly combat with spear and shield and, in token of grief, set Pallas’s name before her own. (hence the name PALLAS ATHENE) — Pg. 44
quote:Originally posted by Cassrida:
''Let he children of Pelops perish when it comes to a comparison with the shoulder of Perseus! for beautiful as he is and ruddy of face'' - Philostratus Elder, Imagines, I
Fake translation. Persus was Egyptian or Libyan by birth. he was an African.
The Greeks called the Egyptians melanopodes or black-legs. Not red necks or red legs ...
Here is Persus:
"Perseus was the son of Zeus and Danaë, who by her very name, was the archetype of all the Danaans."
More:
” The common Greek tradition is that the Dorian kings as far back as Perseus the son of Danae are as they stand in the accepted Greek lists. ……If on the other hand we trace the ancestry of Danae, the daughter of Acrisius we find that the Dorian chieftains are genuine Egyptians. This is the accepted Greek version of the genealogy of the Spartan Royal house.” –Herodotus, –Privilidges of Spartan Kings Pg 406 Herodotus- the Historiess Penguin Classsics.
Persus
Persus first revealed himself to the Egyptians. He is the God of the Egyptian city of Chemmis. It is said that..." Danaus and Lynceus were Chemmites before they sail to Greece where Persus was born" See Herodotus Book 2 page 162
quote:Originally posted by Cassrida:
''So he was lifted by the dancing feet of the others, with red skin, his whole face emitting ruddy rays and shining between, them, the very image of the crescent moon.'' - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 18. 93
Herodotus on the Egyptian origin of the Greek God: "...Horus is Appollo and Osiris is Dionysus" See Herodotus Book 2 at page 187 paragraph 2.
quote:''...who is named with the name of this land, ruddy Bacchus to whom Bacchants cry'' - Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus, 210
Bacchus... Bar-Cush! Son of Cush.
"The rites of Orphic and Bachus are actually Egyptian [in origin]..." See Herodotus Book 2 at 159
The cult of the Greek gods and goddesses come from Africa. Maybe Africans can now be seen as Red-necks too...
"It was the Africans ..who taught the Greeks to use ceremonial meetings, processions, and liturgies: a fact which can be inferred from obvious antiquity of such ceremonies in Africa, compared with Greece..." - Herodotus Bk 2 at 56
quote:Originally posted by Cassrida:
''But ruddy Ceres in mid heat is mown, And in mid heat the parched ears are bruised'' - Virgil, Georgics 1. 287
You are one shameless Liar. Here is the correct translation:
"... But Ceres’ golden grain is cut down in noonday heat, and in noonday heat the floor threshes the parched ears. Strip to plough, strip to sow; winter is the farmer’s lazy time." - Virgil, Georgics 1. 287 http://www.theoi.com/Text/VirgilGeorgics1.html
And dont forget that Virgil whom you are distorting his work was a Muurish Roman! Brown like the African earth.
Here is Virgilus the Muur:
......
quote:Originally posted by Cassrida: Ruddy was also applied to physically describe ordinary Greek (and Roman) citizens:
Maybe. But you also admitted the following:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: There were non-white Roman emperors. This only happened though when Rome became a melting pot and lost its homogeneity.....
For arguments about the ethnicity of Romans and Greeks by extension, go here:
quote: ''PAMPHILUS blah...blah....'' - P. Terentius Afer (Terence), Hecyra III. 4
I do not think you realize this but Terentius Afer (the African) was a black African stolen by the Roman army directly from Africa. Go google that... lol!
quote: Most Roman emperors were also described as ''ruddy''.
Suetonius describing Emperor Domitian:
''He was tall in stature, his face modest, and very ruddy; he had large eyes, but was dim-sighted; naturally graceful in his person, particularly in his youth..''
Stupidness.. There were 400 Roman Emperors on record. So many of them were native born Africans... Have you heard about Emperor Pescennius Niger? Have you heard of Septimus Severus? Have you heard of Emperor Karakalla? here:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: There were non-white Roman emperors. This only happened though when Rome became a melting pot and lost its homogeneity.....
Now respond again "scholar"...
Did the Greeks describe themselves as red necks? Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The research of Parker (1917,1918) and Winters (1983b), when you and Lefkowitz (1992) argues that Socrates could not have been black because he was an Athenian citizen she is wrong. It is only your opinion. The Athenians were of African origin , a view supported by Greek traditions Traditions that make it clear that Pelasgians who were not Indo-European speakers founded Athens. Socrates was a citizen of Athen.
As a result, Socrates' racial heritage is confirmed by his birthright. The Greeks made it clear that the founders of Athens were Pelasgians or Blacks. So Socrates Afro-Greek heritage goes back to his Pelasgian roots.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This translations are all meant to rewrite history. As noted by Parker we can not trust the translators to tell the truth.
.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''Achilles is xanthos 'brown''' ===
Firstly xanthos means yellow, and it was mostly only applied to hair colour not skin colour.
Aνθος/Xanthós/Xanthos/Xanthus
In ancient Greek Xanthos (άνθος) = a shade of yellow, blonde, gold.
A Homeric Dictionary for Schools and Colleges, 1891):
‘‘ξανθός (xanthos): ''reddish-yellow, blond or auburn (flavus).’’
Xantho- Xan"tho- A combining form from Greek xanqo`s yellow. Xanthic Xan"thic adjective [ Greek xanqo`s yellow: confer French xanthique .] 1. Tending toward a yellow colour’’
Achilles is described as ''sandy haired'' i.e blonde (Iliad, I. 207).
Achilles is described as white skinned (leukodi) by Homer (Iliad, 11.570):
''...and himself stood between Trojans and Achaeans, battling furiously. And the spears hurled by bold hands were some of them lodged in his great shield, as they sped onward, and many, ere ever they reached his white body(leukodi), stood fixed midway in the earth, fain to glut themselves with flesh.''
leukodi/leuko/leukon/leukos meaning:
A. white. B. of the human skin, white, fair
- Henry George Liddell. A Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.
Yet virtually none of the ancient Greek or Trojan Gods or figures are described as melas, but always Leukos (white).
Aphrodite is described always as pale white (leukon) skinned:
"…her soft neck and snow-white skinned breasts” - Homeric Hymn VI to Aphrodite
From Euripides we also have a quote, describing Dionysus as white skinned:
[Pentheus addresses Dionysus:] “Your body is not ill-formed, stranger, for women's purposes . . . For your hair is long, not through wrestling, scattered over your cheeks, full of desire; and you have a white skin from careful preparation, hunting after Aphrodite by your beauty not exposed to strokes of the sun, but beneath the shade.” - Bacchae, 455
Enjoy:
Apollo is always depicted as blonde in ancient greek art:
More on Apollo:
In his elegy Eunomia, Tyrtaeos wrote around 600 BC:
"The love of money and naught else shall ruin Sparta. ... Thus hath golden-haired Apollo prophesied from his rich shrine."
(quoted in Ancient Greece: Myth and History, by H B Cotterill, 2004, p.187).
Aristophanes in his Birds also wrote Apollo (epithet: Phoebus) was golden haired:
''...right up to the throne of Zeus, where Phoebus listens to you, Phoebus with his golden hair.''
Chrysocomes means ''of the golden locks'' not a sword.
Pindar also wrote in Isthmean, XII: ''But grant to us, Loxias, luxuriant with your golden hair.'' (Loxias was another epithet for Apollo).
Atalanta (Aelian, Varia Historia, XIII. 1):
''Her hair was golden, not due to feminine sophistication, dyes, or applications, but the colour was natural.''
Eros (Anacreon, Frg. 358: ‘‘...again golden-haired Eros’’).
Harmonia (Medea, 834: ''...were brought to birth by Harmonia with the golden hair'', Strabo (Geographica, 1 . 2) also notes of a tomb of blonde haired Harmonia in Illyria: ''..beside the tomb-stone of blonde Harmonia''
Jason The Argonautica of Apollonius tells us that
"Jason was a handsome northern aristocrat with long blond hair ...."
quoted by Harvard Archaeologist Mauricio Obregón in Beyond the Sea (NY: The Modern Library, 2001), citing the Argonautica.)
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yes Cassiterides the Greeks never claimed to be blacks,but they did claimed as part of their ancestry in the form of Kadmos and Egyptos, the Danaë Black and smitten by the sun,this is backed up by Bio-anthropology in Angel's Greek and Anatolian first farmers and genetics Larry Angel (1972): "one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians..."
Read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xc0AXynjGFAJ:egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dhist%26action%3Ddisplay%26thread%3D99+Greek+and+Anatolian+fi rst+farmers+Christopher+Ehret&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk#ixzz1C30WtOwx And Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the “older” Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2001.057002118.x/abstract Now as far as the pre-Hellenes go According to Hodel-Hoenes & Warburton register 1: the prince of Punt register 2: princes of Crete and Mediterranean islands register 3: princes of southern lands and the Antiu (cavern dwellers) register 4: princes of Retenu and northern lands clear to the far north register 5: captive children of southern and northern lands for workshops Read more: ]http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=egyto&action=display&thread=95&page=2#ixzz1C33LxSQA Now despite all the above I still would not proclaim the classical Greeks blacks although they undoubtedly carry black ancestry.
Excellent references Brada. Frank Snowden, valuable as some of his work is, was not an anthropologist or archaelogist, and could did not go beyond current knowledge in the 1960s when he wrote his book. He also subscribed to the true negro model of his day in the 1940, 1950s and 1960s. Any credible discussion of "the negro" in ancient Greece must include the DNA evidence.
and in your grand procession picture Brada, aren't some of the Egyptians painted in the same brown skin tones as the "negro" princes from the southern lands?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Other Athenians:
MELAMPUS the son of Amythaon. It was he who introduced the name Dionysus into Greece from Egypt where he studied.
See Herodotus Book 2 at page 149
Identities of the Greek Gods:
"The names and [identities] of nearly all the gods came to Greece from Egypt."
- See Herodotus Book 2 at 149 and 150.
Egyptian Gods were real live Black men:
"Egypt was indeed ruled by the gods who lived on earth amongst men..."
-See Herodotus Book 2 at page 187 paragraph 2
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
@ cass:
Dude, sorry, skimmed that post. You provided the quotes i was thinking of, them in their own words differentiating between the two lands. And directly, though I would have accepted indirect as well. I thought i recalled some'm on their hair being different.
As far as written language goes that's wrong. European derived scripts like the alphabet we're using now derive from Greco-Roman which derives from Phoenician and Nile Valley (African) scripts.
In fact sub-Saharan folks did have written language before colonization -- although mostly in Arabic script (which traces back to the Nile Valley, even Biblical Ishmael's mother being Egyptian) and at times even language (which is Semetic which branches from Afroasiatic which originates in ... sub-Saharan Africa). One of the scripts fully in used in their own language was Ancient Egyptian -- Kemet (or ancient "Egypt" a Greek i.e. Euro-colonial word) was not fully North of the Sahara at the dawn of its civilization; the Sahara had not yet even grown to stretch South past "Egypt" in early Dynastic times lol. Some writers from the time (i think) of Mali write of them as having the most advanced physicians in the known (Islamic) world at the time. Binary script (without which we would not have computers) is traced back to Renaissance Spain through to Mali or something but few know it's used in games for fun further South of the Sahara.
It's funny you mention the European conquest of Africa -- in South Eastern Africa this was generally the case, rapid and fairly unimpeded murdering (other than the Zulu and others). But if you were aware of what the Ashante which had *women* in their military and the Sudanese-Egyptian Beja (Brits called them "Fuzzy Wuzzies" -- there was a poem written for what they did to the British square) did to the British you'd know you look like an ass making such a sweeping generalization.
The British didn't swoop in and take Ashante territory. They thought they wanted a piece of the Ashante when they got their balls handed back to them early on in the 19th Century or 1800s. They came back late in the 19th Century and defeated the Ashante in like 1900. Britain owned the entire world using their British Square -- few withstood it.
Further, Euro imperialism in Africa is one of the most short lived Imperial Eras on earth. They still have influence today, but no longer any direct standing armies. If Africa (which was sparsely populated) hadn't had complex societies and states at around the time of European expansion in the 1400s or even Islamic expansion much earlier Africa would have ended up like the Indigenous Americas, and Australian Aboriginees, and that's the truth. I would also say Berbers, but many of their cultural practices are still intact. This is true for aboriginal folks in the Americas too, so let me qualify that with Native Americans (native North Americans) making this a numbers thing.
Matter of fact, the vast majority of South America that is indigenous today is Mestizo (mixed) (nothin wrong with that to they or i).
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spiralman: Where is the great Ancient Greece of Africa? Its strange how these Afrocrazed Negroes insist that they created so many things outside their own yard yet in their own yard we see virtually nothing of the Negro. No art, sculpture, architecture, nation nothing. Something is very wrong here.
While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture, You are being unfair by saying there was no civilization in the Rest of Africa.
There was the Early Nile Valley(Nubia if you don't see Egypt as African enough) as well as the Tichltt Walatta going back to the B.C era.
Don't stoop the level of Afronuts.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''And you're a retard to say there was no art, sculpture nation or anything, and to ancient nation nutt-hug? You build that civilization? Ta fwog outta here'' ====
They had some stuff, but nothing compared to the great heights of Rome, Greece etc.
You know black sub-saharan africans couldn't even write to record their own history...
Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Who recorded the myths and legends of the black tribes across Africa? White Europeans did from around the 19th century...
I mean look how quickly Africa was colonised, europeans had guns and cannons while africans had wooden spears...
Actually if we use you reasoning "Black Africans", the Nubians and Egyptians had Written Records before Europeans, and Written records exist in "Sub Sahran Africa" prior to the 19th Century with the adoption of Arabic.(The Earliest know to date dates back to the Early 1100s)..So the 11-12 Century would be correct.
Also I thinks it not a good Idea for people of Northern and Western European decent to brag about written texts when the only written texts from those regions of any signifigance comes around the exact same time literacy is adopted in West Africa.
You say no culture existed on Par with Rome, and Greece. Well one of the most powerful World Empires prior to the Rise of Islam was Axum, before that Nubia and Egypt held alot of Regional and Cultural sway. The Empire of Ghana is descibed as higly organized with stone, wood and mud structures and a centralized system of government.
Greece and Rome were powerful but were multi-ethnic and borrowed alot from the East, so in a sense Greece was more Eastern in Her sphere of Influence.
As far as being easily conquered goes, you realize the Muslims conquered much of Europe...are Muslim Moors somehow superior because they were able to conquer the Spanish.
What to make of the MesoAmericans, The Aztecs who's Hygine , Educational, and Astronomical knowledge far surpassed the Invading Spanish...are we to say people who bathed once a year and who regularly and habitually threw sewage into their drinking supply and who until recently thought the Universe was Geocentric were better than Mesoamericans?? If you are going to say things like that you are obviously not trained in world history, and should be silent on such matters.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture,
It's better to disagree without having deep hatred
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
^ I disagree! Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture,
It's better to disagree without having deep hatred
Well I don't actually hate them, I just can't stand people who whine and bitch about "whitey" but every chance they get they try to be him.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture,
It's better to disagree without having deep hatred
Well I don't actually hate them, I just can't stand people who whine and bitch about "whitey" but every chance they get they try to be him.
Now you hate..now you dont hate now you hide now you seek
You are the most mentally miswired of all the pink albinos I have ever encountered ...
Sick, sick like a mensurating BYTCH!
Good your Owner Lioness is around, to leash you before you bite someone and cause her liabilities... LOL
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
Why is it black people are always bitching and whining about what white people are stealing from us (e.g. culture, science, civilisation etc)?
YET
It is the whitey who actually bothers to collect and document these things (hence the reason it became their legacy). We (Blacks) write books about how we used to be great, how evil white people are and then top it off by charging every other black person to stand up for what is right! YET...
Alright, name one Black person who writes about the science of AE without bitching about it!!? Even Ra Un Nefer Amen does a bit of bitching in, i admit, his rather impressive Metu Neter books...
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Well I don't actually hate them, I just can't stand people who whine and bitch about "whitey" but every chance they get they try to be him.
This from an Albino claiming to be Black????????
BTW - Like WHO?
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
It's not as if we don't have the knowledge. It's not as if we don't have publishers. It's not as if we don't have web developers. Why can't we come togther to create something worthwhile. Why are we so focussed on silly ish like stabbing each other in the back or how big our phallus is? You can have the longest largest hardest phallus in the world...but what does it matter when u can't be a man on your own planet?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^You Albinos got everything in your existence from Blacks. You spend your lives emulating Blacks. But yet you claim that Blacks WANT to be YOU??? Like I always say, you Albinos live in a fantasy.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture,
It's better to disagree without having deep hatred
Well I don't actually hate them, ..grrr woof woof woof....
Thank heavens, Lioness your owner is around...
Heel..dog...heel.. Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture,
It's better to disagree without having deep hatred
Well I don't actually hate them, ..grrr woof woof woof....
Thank heavens, Lioness your owner is around...
Heel..dog...heel..
Cagot bitch....
Have you found my 1st hand source...
or is this anger and frustration because your true identity has been revealed...
A Cagot, Tin-fiol Tranny...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Booski Love: If we're so spiritual, why don't we have a Black version of this....? http://www.innertraditions.com/
It's not as if we don't have the knowledge. It's not as if we don't have publishers. It's not as if we don't have web developers. Why can't we come togther to create something worthwhile. Why are we so focussed on silly ish like stabbing each other in the back or how big our phallus is? You can have the longest largest hardest phallus in the world...but what does it matter when u can't be a man on your own planet?
Folks
When you go to this ho's profile, she has this picture of her Gods:
Go there now and confirm before she removes the pic of her god and her pleasure toy...
Wao! the number of mental albinos we have to deal with on this board...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: While I have deep hatred for Afrocenrics claiming Greek and European culture,
It's better to disagree without having deep hatred
Well I don't actually hate them, ..grrr woof woof woof....
Thank heavens, Lioness your owner is around...
Heel..dog...heel..
Grrr...rarara...woof.......
Grrrr.. woof ... woof... hoooooowl.... a Cagot, Tin-fiol Tranny...
LoL.. she even painted your toes, Leper boi..
Whatz the name of the Dog Salon, Lioness takes you to visit?
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
@Love
true we do some reverse nutt hugging too
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
^ What's reverse nutt hugging? All I'm saying is ... never mind.
Posted by Spiralman (Member # 16230) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''And you're a retard to say there was no art, sculpture nation or anything, and to ancient nation nutt-hug? You build that civilization? Ta fwog outta here'' ====
They had some stuff, but nothing compared to the great heights of Rome, Greece etc.
You know black sub-saharan africans couldn't even write to record their own history...
Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Who recorded the myths and legends of the black tribes across Africa? White Europeans did from around the 19th century...
I mean look how quickly Africa was colonised, europeans had guns and cannons while africans had wooden spears...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Cas
quote:They had some stuff, but nothing compared to the great heights of Rome, Greece etc. You know black sub-saharan africans couldn't even write to record their own history... Not a single ancient black african text exists. Who recorded the myths and legends of the black tribes across Africa? White Europeans did from around the 19th century... I mean look how quickly Africa was colonised, europeans had guns and cannons while africans had wooden spears.
I take it you are relatively new here Kush,and Axum was comparable, Axum was according to the Persian religious figure Mani listed Axum with Rome, Persia, and China as one of the four great powers of his time. http://www.theancientweb.com/explore/content.aspx?content_id=10 A trading Empire with connections as far as India and China. Btw there are over 300 such sites in ancient Zimbabwe the one above being the largest and most famous. http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pav&action=display&thread=126 Gedi ruins: The ruins are the remains of a town located in Gede, a village near the coastal town of Malindi in Kenya. It is suggested that between the 13th and 14th to 17th centuries, Gedi was a thriving community along coastal Kenya. Although no written record exists of this town, excavations made between 1948 and 1958 have revealed that the inhabitants of Gedi traded with people from all over the world. “The artifacts that were found in the ruins, such as Chinese porcelain and Venetian glass, indicate that Gedi was a wealthy city that traded with Portugal, Italy, China, India and the Arab world” (Mombasa Kenya coast: Gedi ruins, www.articlebase.com). The ruins have a mosque, a palace, and large stone houses. The city’s streets were laid out at right angles and had drainage gutters. It is assumed that the village was abandoned in early 16th century Read more: ]http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pav&action=display&thread=126#ixzz1C5PD2MKO
quote:Originally posted by Booski Love: Why is it black people are always bitching and whining about what white people are stealing from us (e.g. culture, science, civilisation etc)?
YET
It is the whitey who actually bothers to collect and document these things (hence the reason it became their legacy). We (Blacks) write books about how we used to be great, how evil white people are and then top it off by charging every other black person to stand up for what is right! YET...
Alright, name one Black person who writes about the science of AE without bitching about it!!? Even Ra Un Nefer Amen does a bit of bitching in, i admit, his rather impressive Metu Neter books...
As discrete cultures and societies: The European Blacks are gone, The North African Blacks are gone, The North Asian Blacks are gone, The American Blacks are gone. All that is left is the Sub-Saharan Blacks. YOU are a Sub-Saharan Black, and your outlook is Sub-Saharan Black. Need I say more?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Egyptian Deity Greek Deity Location in Herodotus
Ptah- Hephaestus
II.3.1- 112.1
Horus-Apollo II.144.2
Osiris-Dionysus
II.42.2, 144.2
Isis-Demeter (Io)
II.59.2 (II.41.2)
Set/Apophis-Typhon
II.144.2, 156.4
Bubastis (Bast)-Atremis
II.137.5
Neith-Athena
II.28.1, 59.3
Amun-Zeus
II.42
Hathor-Aphrodite
II.42
Khonsu (?)-Herakles
II.42
Min-Pan
II.46.4
Apis-Epaphus
II.153.1
Herodotus also asserted that "the names of nearly all the gods came to Greece from Egypt . . . for the names of all the gods have been known in Egypt from the beginning of time . . . It was the Egyptians too who originated, and taught the Greeks . . . ceremonial meeting, processions and liturgies . . . The Egyptians were also the first to assign each month and each day to a particular deity, and to foretell the date of a man's birth, his character, his fortunes, and the day of his death . . . The Egyptians, too have made more use of omens and prognostics than any other nation. . ." (Herodotus, The Histories, 149-150; 152; 159). http://wysinger.homestead.com/ancientafrica.html Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
@ Brada
Really though (considering cass's & Spiral's last post) this is the wrong place to be post gems like the above
i'd say Africa looses any big leverage they had relative to elsewhere in the world with the fall of the Pharaohs and start of the Current Era (change from B.C.E. to C.E.). The tables turn last millennium with two major things.
1.) blacks begin to dominate slavery -- in terms of the slavee .. if that makes sense, not the slaver. Profit generated for Africans is only short term.
2.) As the human focus shifted more and more towards manufacturing technology industry comes to be the dominant factor and it had always been the further North people lived the less they could rely on their land. This was also true of the more dessert adapted people were.
Even with that said Africa's had a number of expansions into non-African territory even after ancient "Egypt". There was Abyssinia ("Ethiopia") in the East and in the West the Moorish Empires (particularly Almoravid and Almohad Dynasties had origins in Islam converts in the deep South i think). A lot of times foreigners in Africa were completely dominated.
So maybe i'll say that the Atlantic Slave trade was the real, major, and ultimate turning point in terms of Africa vs. Eurasia. The Moors and Arabs had slaves from as far North as England and Norway and as far South as probably Zimbabwe but didn't seem to utilize slavery as well so i won't say the Arabs' slaving of Africans marked the turning point.
It was the Western Atlantic one.
**************************
Even by the times of the white American colonies white people in general including Americans had to watch for Pirates while sailing around the Mediterranean Sea and even as far North as Britain.
The sex slaves were a large part of the circassian and Christian slaves in Africa.
And Spiralman, it ain't our fault:
^ HA ha !! !
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Genius^ I almost died... Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
Whatbox, why have u changed your "From" to Storms?
Where's that?
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
"her milkshake brings all the boys to the yard" Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Though I have no time to scour all the sources listed in the below chart, one person is conspicuos by his absence. Eurybates is the only one described by Homer as a black yet not a foreigner but Greek and the equal of Ulysses himself.
quote:A favourite herald in his train I knew, His visage solemn, sad of sable hue: Short woolly curls o'erfleeced his bending head, O'er which a promontory shoulder spread; Eurybates; in whose large soul alone Ulysses view'd an image of his own.
Or in a prose and more modern translation
quote: Furthermore, a herald attended him, a little older than he, and I will tell thee of him too, what manner of man he was. He was round-shouldered, dark of skin, and curly-haired, and his name was Eurybates; and Odysseus honored him above his other comrades, because he was like-minded with himself.” So he spoke, and in her heart aroused yet more the desire of weeping, as she recognized the sure tokens that Odysseus told her.
Homer -- Odyssey 19.244-250
Now the pertinent words in the description supporting Eurybates' blackness are μελανόχροος and οὐλοκάρηνος i.e., black-skinned and woolly-haired. Is anyone with origins in your Tin (British) Isles so glowingly spoken of in Homer or anybody from the Tin Isles mentioned at all in the corpus of ancient Greek Lit?
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ... i thought i would expose the truth on this matter.
The Negro in Ancient Greece
Two initial points to consider:
1. No one denies that there were Negro populations in ancient Greece, as there is a classical record that documents them.
2. The following article was written by Frank Snowden (d. 2007), an African-American Classicist and one of the foremost authorities on blacks in classical antiquity.
3. There were small populations of blacks in ancient Greece, but they were not considered to be Greek, but foreign.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Good one, Takruri. I should point out that although blonde hair existed in ancient Greece, it definitely was not common. In fact blondness was spoken of in literature as a novelty because it was an uncommon trait. Also, all the peoples described as blonde in the epics are identified as the Achaeans or the oldest tribes of Hellenes (Greeks) with light colored eyes and fair complexions which contrast them with the majority of peoples in the Aegean who were all darker skinned with dark features. And yes blacks were present in the Aegean since neolithic times. As was shown here Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
The Pelasgians were not from Africa, but from the north of Greece, north of the Danube.
Several of the Greek deities were Pelasgic, mostly the primordial Titans.
Oceanus = Danube
Part of the Danubius or Istros river was also known as (together with the Black Sea) the Okeanos in ancient times, being called the Okeanos Potamos (Okeanos River). The lower Danube was also called the Keras Okeanoio (Gulf or Horn of Okeanos) in the Argonautica by Apollonius Rhodos (Argon. IV. 282). The lower Danube has a slow, deep, wide course, so it can be seen why it was considered as part of the Okeanos.
Both Homer (Odyssey, XII. 1) and Hesiod (Theogonia, v.242. 959) in their theogonic legends exclusively refer to the lower Danube as the Okeanos Potamos.
The Titan's Cave was in Romania, just adjacent to the Danube.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
cassiterides You did not address the issue of why some pre Greeks looked liked this Ahmose 1 (1552-1526) called Haunebu his servants in a stela erected inthe temple of Amun at Karnak.In the same stele he also gave to his mother,Queen Ahhotep,the title of mistress of the shores of Haunebu.More then fifty years later the great Conqueror ThutmoseIII also claimed to have brought the Haunebu to heel. In an inscription found at Jebel Barkel in Nubia, he boasted that he had "trussed the Nine Bows,the Isle in the Midst of the Great green Sea.Hearing your war cry ,I made them see your majesty like a millstone pressing the backs of their victims. Why did this man gave an entire nation to his mommy? that just ain't right he could have gotten her a kitten or supt-hum But I digress it goes towards showing influence including genetic not just cultural and perhaps where the Kadmos and Danaeus legends came from.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
''You did not address the issue of why some pre Greeks looked liked this'' ====
There is no Pelasgian artwork. You are showing Egyptians, the Pelasgians were not Egyptian.
Danaus was from Egypt, but the legend of his arrival in Grrece dates him to the 16th century BC, and Aeschylus made it clear that the Pelasgians were already in Greece before Danaus.
Before Danaus and the Danaids arrived, Argos was ruled by King Pelasgus of the Pelasgians.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
These paintings are late. They don't relate to the original people.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Afro-Greeks were not called Ethiopian. They were native to Greece when the Indo-Europeans came to Greece, Homer, who was an Afro-Greek refered to his people as xanthos (brown) in color.
The earliest inhabitants of Greece and the Aegean Islands were Blacks from ancient Libya, Palestine, and Asia Minor. These Blacks founded Athens, Thebes Thera and Attica. They occupied much of the mainland and all the Aegean Islands.
These Blacks are frequently depicted in the art associated with the so-called Dark Ages (1200-600 BC). There are also fine frescos from Thera (Sanorin) Island which illustrate one of the Agean cities occupied by these Blacks during the 16th and 15th centuries BC.
This is one of the Thera Frescos. Note the busy atmosphere Associated with the Pelasgian cities during the 16th Century BC
Although these people of the Heroic age came from diverse origins, the Aryan-Greeks called them Pelasgians. According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians. The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes. The term Pelasgian was applied to all these pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece. R.J. Hopper, in
The Early Greeks, noted that "indeed the classical Greeks believed in the separate existence of diverse ethnic elements side by side, and thought particularly of the Pelasgians in this connection".
According to tradition, the Pelasgians inhabited Arcadia and many Aegean Islands. These Blacks took their own writing to Greece which was later used by the Aryan-Greeks. According to Herodotus quadrigas or four-horse chariots were introduced to Greeks by the Libyans .
The Aryan-Greeks adopted the language of the Pelasgians and Egyptians. The linguistic evidence shows that there was a differentiation of Greece into East Greek and West Greek. The Black Greeks spoke East Greek (Achaioi or Achaean). West Greek was spoken by the Dorian or Aryan Greeks. The earliest Aryan tribe called Ionians spoke a dialect of East Greek called Aeolic.
Many classical scholars teach the world that the Greek language is entirely Indo-European. This view of Greek is wrong.
Dr. Anna Morpurgo Davies, has made it clear that "less than 40% of the words which have an Indo-European etymology". According to Dr. Davies, 52.2 % of the Greek terms in Chantraine's Dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque (1968) have an unknown etymology. The mixed nature of the Greek language results from the early settlement of the Aegean by Blacks from Africa.
Some of these words are of African origin. Robert K.G. Temple, in The Sirius Mystery, shows that many of the most common words of the Greek vocabulary are of Egyptian origin. Diop (1991) has also discussed the Egyptian origin for many Greek terms.
The Xanthos or Palasgians of Thera
The Greeks often called the first inhabitants of Greece Pelasgians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the great ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes which included the Achaeans , Kadmeans, and Leleges.
The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them.
Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as "venerable ancestors". He said that the first Athenians "they were Pelasgi, the later possessing the country now designed Hellas". The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe. Pausanias, noted that "The Arcadians make mention of Pelasgus as the first person who existed in their country. From this king the whole region took the name Pilasgia". Hopper noted that the Pelasgians founded Attica.
The Black immigrants from Canaan were also settled in the Aegean at Argolis. They called themselves the "Sons of Abas". Many of the Melampodes later took part of Argolis away from the Canaanites.
The earliest Greek alphabet was made by the Pelasgians, it was lost and later reintroduced by Kadmus to Boeotia. Another Pelasgian, Evander of Arcadia introduced writing to the Italians. This script was used to make the first fifteen characters of the Latin script according to Pliny and Plutarch. Pelasgians from Thera
Pliny says that one of the Aegean scripts was created by an Egyptian named Menos. An Egyptian creation of one of the early Greek alphabets is not out of the question because the early Predynastic Egyptians used the Proto-Saharan script as did the founders of the 12th Dynasty. Moreover, the Tiles of Rameses II, published by F. Hitching, in The Mysterious World, are analogous to the early Greek characters.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
We are dealing with the issue of the population of low-nose bridged persons, i.e. the Phoenicians who founded Etrusca in the early phase of the Republic,
vs the high-bridged people who were incursive from the Russian Steppes in the latter stage of the Republic and ushered in the Empire.
In 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 we see the low-bridge population there before the incursion of the high-bridge Italic, Germanic, and Slavic populations that would become Europe's second population displacing the first and ushering in so-called "modern" Europe.
. .
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Speaking of the red-haired peoples, the map in the upper left-hand corner shows the descent of the Caucasian into the regions below and to the west f their Steppe homeland:
''Africans/Celts and red heads co-existed together in Europe, once'' =======
And thats really the sole political objective of Afrocentrism in a nut shell isn't it? To get whites to mix with blacks by spouting a nutty fantasy pseudo-history when we once lived side by side.
As i have said before, the first written record of a negro in Britain dates to 1593.
There were no blacks in UK in ancient times. Blacks are immigrants, not indigenous. The only reason Afrocentrism was invented was the frustration of blacks when they were confronted with the fact why are they living in white lands? So they invented a crazy pseudo-history to justify living with white people across Europe.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''Africans/Celts and red heads co-existed together in Europe, once'' =======
And thats really the sole political objective of Afrocentrism in a nut shell isn't it? To get whites to mix with blacks by spouting a nutty fantasy pseudo-history when we once lived side by side.
As i have said before, the first written record of a negro in Britain dates to 1593.
There were no blacks in UK in ancient times. Blacks are immigrants, not indigenous. The only reason Afrocentrism was invented was the frustration of blacks when they were confronted with the fact why are they living in white lands? So they invented a crazy pseudo-history to justify living with white people across Europe.
I find it interesting that only ignorant "TEA PARTY" Whites in America, and their few brethren in Britain, make such ridiculous statements. Intelligent people understand that Whites are RECENT arrivals in Europe, and thus took no part in shaping ancient Europe.
The ancient Britain's were Blacks from Iberia (Spain and Portugal). There are any number of studies which prove this, and they are accepted by "most" of the British public - accept for Nick Griffin. Lets see what his typical lying Albino nature got him!
THE TIMES OF LONDON
Scientist - Griffin hijacked my work to make race claim about 'British aborigines'
Whites, worldwide have a fine and well recorded history of destroying vital written records whenever it suits them, and it usually suits them when they are afraid, and they are afraid, ALL OF THE TIME!
Virginia Indian Tribes
Last weekend, in Jamestown, Virginia, officials observed the four hundredth anniversary of the first permanent English settlement in North America. President Bush took part. He called Jamestown the beginning of a movement from the old world to the new. He also said the expansion of Jamestown had a terrible effect on the Native American tribes who lived in the area. They lost their lands and their way of life. And their struggle continues today. Barbara Klein explains.
The United States government recognizes five hundred sixty-two American Indian tribes. Most received this recognition from the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They proved through birth and death records that their groups have existed as different communities since the time the first Europeans arrived.
Federal recognition means an Indian tribe can govern itself. Recognition also makes it possible for the tribes to receive federal help. Some educational financial aid is only available to the children of federally recognized tribes.
Six tribes in Virginia are still not recognized. They signed a treaty in the sixteen hundreds with the king of England, but that was before the United States existed.
A Virginia law destroyed their written records in the twentieth century by burning down the Virginia records building which held all such recorded records. The WHITE law recognized only two races -- white or colored. State officials changed "Indian" in all the tribes' birth, death and marriage records to "colored." So the federal government has no record of the tribes' existence for many years, impending the terms of the treaty to be upheld. Whites/Jews are also known for RELIGIOUSLY reneging on their debts.. Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Someone wrote:
quote:As i have said before, the first written record of a negro in Britain dates to 1593.
There were no blacks in UK in ancient times. Blacks are immigrants, not indigenous.
^Once you allow a man into your home, and then allow him power over you, your fate is sealed, and deserved.
The Lewis and Clark journals are illuminating, in that they show the Indian to be more interested in fighting each other, than in fighting the White man.
Sounds very similar to some Africans.
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
^ Exactly.
But what if you didn't allow him into your home i.e. as in he FORCED his way in, what then?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Booski Love: ^ Exactly.
But what if you didn't allow him into your home i.e. as in he FORCED his way in, what then?
That has actually NEVER occurred.
In all cases that I know of, there were sufficient LOCAL forces to drive away the White man. They just never joined together to do it.
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: They just never joined together to do it.
I wonder why
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^You are one of the few displaying enough intelligence to ask that question.
And that question has befuddled me for years, and still does.
I think it has to do with the Black mans inherent belief, at first meeting, that the White man, being an Albino, posses no threat. They are always more concerned with their traditional local enemies.
This thinking is most acutely demonstrated in the Americas and India.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
^@ Booskie Love: Psst...d'you still have the Dildo picture on your profile?
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
I wonder how quickly the world's totally flawed and ignorant monetary system was put in place?
And why did damn near everyone agree to it? Was it greed or just stupidity on the part of the non-Europeans?
Firearms and Independent monetary system are an absolute must for all nations.
Black people are sell-outs naturally so we're just going to work around that. Black women may turn out to be better soldiers for this highly psycho-spiritual war though I am often put off by black women pretending to be revolutionaries but they're really just trying to sort out thier "sexual-monetary" situation at the expense of thier own sisters.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Quote: This thinking is most acutely demonstrated in the Americas and India.
I should have included South Africa, were the "Bought off" Zulu were the major impediment.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Booski Love: I wonder how quickly the world's totally flawed and ignorant monetary system was put in place?
And why did damn near everyone agree to it? Was it greed or just stupidity on the part of the non-Europeans?
Firearms and Independent monetary system are an absolute must for all nations.
You are looking for answers in the WRONG places. The GUN is an African invention. And a nations monetary system is under its own control.
Posted by Booski Love (Member # 6729) on :
African govt officials are usually very wealthy folks despite terrible poverty among the majority.
I'm highly disappointed by Nigerian govt's inability to pay someone $100 to knock up a half-decent web page to properly represent the country.
That REALLY bothers me.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''I find it interesting that only ignorant "TEA PARTY" Whites in America, and their few brethren in Britain, make such ridiculous statements. Intelligent people understand that Whites are RECENT arrivals in Europe, and thus took no part in shaping ancient Europe.
The ancient Britain's were Blacks from Iberia (Spain and Portugal). There are any number of studies which prove this, and they are accepted by "most" of the British public - accept for Nick Griffin. Lets see what his typical lying Albino nature got him!'' =====
Blacks and other non-whites only entered UK in large numbers in 1948.
The historic, archeological, genetic etc evidence has all proven the indigenous British were white.
The only people who refuse this fact are some crazy afrocentrics on the net...
Why?
As i said, blacks are immigrants and need a reason to justify why they are living in white lands - so they invented their own pseudo-history.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
As i said, blacks are immigrants and need a reason to justify why they are living in white lands - so they invented their own pseudo-history.
True but its mainly Afrocentrics, who will moan and whine about whitey but will never or seldomly leave his lands esp. for Africa, so they invent history to justify their dependence and love for European civilization and culture.
BTW, I await your response to my earlier posts. For someone who is learned in the classics you are ignorant of world history..esp. to claim with a straight face no witten records existed in Africa until the 19th century with Europeans.
Is world history not part of your studies, if so what university do you attend??
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Marc we really should be careful about saying where the narrow featured folks may have originated just by eye balling art,we don't know what complexion they were if that's a working hypothesis and you are not saying it's fact then ok. case in point What the folks on coins generally looked like.
Guys lets deal with British Isles in another thread shall we? maybe to stop us from going in all directions. Btw interesting article Mike.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
cassiterides - Like jari, you are one silly little Albino boy, talking nonsense when the adults are trying to provide enlightenment. The Windrush - what stupidity. I thought Lioness was the only Albino with such a brazen disregard for intelligent discourse.
BTW - there is no such thing as "White lands". All lands were originally settled by Blacks. However, if you wish to say "White conquered" lands, that is historically correct.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
I don't think descriptions of Greek heroes or gods say anything about the average ancient Greek phenotype. The thing about the gods is that they weren't human and therefore did not necessarily have to be colored like humans, and most Greek heroes had some divine ancestry. Besides, most of the Greek pottery I've seen depicts dark-haired, dark-eyed Southern European people.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''BTW - there is no such thing as "White lands". All lands were originally settled by Blacks'' ===
Blacks are only indigenous to Sub-Sahara Africa, in fact not even all parts of it. For example Madagascar was first settled by Indonesians...
Basically blacks couldn't even get as far as Madagascar the closest Island to them. LOL.
And yet Afrocentrics dream up of blacks in europe, north america etc. Pure fantasy.
Keep up the comedy. Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''BTW, I await your response to my earlier posts. For someone who is learned in the classics you are ignorant of world history..esp. to claim with a straight face no witten records existed in Africa until the 19th century with Europeans.'' ===
I said black africans never had a written script, not Africa.
Or are you one of these simpletons who thinks everyone from Africa automatically equals black?
The Egyptians, Libyans etc were not black.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ... the first written record of a black in Britain dates to 1593.
There were no blacks in UK in ancient times.
You are incorrect on both counts as blacks are documented at Hadrian's Wall in the 2nd century and then there's the archaeological record.
Let's not forget this high ranking Lady of the Ivory Bangle and let's ask were there any Tin (British) Isles folk of such a considerable rank in Africa or the rest of the Mediterranean for that matter?
quote:Borders Folks May Be Descended From Africans (Hadrian's Wall)
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6-11-2004 | David Derbershire
Archaeologists say there is compelling evidence that a 500-strong unit of Moors manned a fort near Carlisle in the third century AD.
Richard Benjamin, an archaeologist at Liverpool University who has studied the history of black Britons, believes many would have settled and raised families.
"When you talk about Romans in Britain, most people think about blue eyes and pale complexions," he said. "But the reality was very different."
Writing in the journal British Archaeology, Mr Benjamin describes a fourth century inscription discovered in Beaumount, two miles from the remains of the Aballava fort at Burgh by Sands. The inscription refers to the "numerus of Aurelian Moors" - a unit of North Africans, probably named after the emperor Marcus Aurelius.
The unit is also mentioned in the Notitia Dignitatum, a Roman list of officials and dignitaries. It describes the prefect of the "numeri Maurorum Aurelianorum, Aballaba".
The unit was probably mustered in the Roman province of Mauretania, in modern-day Morocco, by the emperor Septimus Severus and arrived in Britain in the second or third centuries AD. Aballava lay at the western end of Hadrian's Wall in Cumbria.
Mr Benjamin suspects that the unit would have been blooded in battles in Germany and the Danube where more inscriptions refer to a unit of Moors. Their number is unknown, but the fort could have held up to 500 men.
"There was freedom of movement for civilians and those in administration of the armed forces. Discharge certificates indicate that the veteran soldiers settled in Britain," he said. "Soldiers would have had plenty of money to spend in native settlements on the outskirts of the forts. They would have sought entertainment in brothels. Many would probably have wanted more permanent relationships."
Mr Benjamin is calling for a major study of black Roman Britons. He believes that DNA tests of locals could reveal genetic links with modern-day north Africans, while skeletons of Romans found in the area might contain telltale clues to their childhood origins.
Buildings in the village may have been built from recycled Roman materials. Some might be of African origin, he said.
The unit is likely to have been composed of Berbers from North Africa, but may also have had darker-skinned soldiers from Nubia.
Scientific research techniques have established that a lavish grave containing a woman’s skeleton, an ivory bangle, perfume bottle, mirror and jewellery, belonged to a North African member of York’s high society in the 4th century.
Her sarcophagus, which was made of stone, a sign of immense wealth in Roman Britain, was discovered in 1901 in Bootham, York. The city was then a legionary fortress and civilian settlement called Eboracum, founded by the Romans in AD 71.
Her well-preserved remains showed that she was 1.5m (5ft 1in) and aged between 18 and 23. There were no signs of a violent death, and muscle markings showed that she had not lived a strenuous life, suggesting that she was affluent. Among the goods found in her grave was a bone with the inscription “Sor ave vivas in Deo” (Hail, sister, may you live in God), suggesting that she may also have been a Christian.
A bracelet of jet, probably from Whitby, North Yorkshire, showed that she had access to local trade networks. Researchers from the University of Reading’s department of archaeology believe that the ivory bangle, an artefact rarely found in Roman Britain, may have been kept by the woman as a memento of home.
“The link between slavery and Africans is an early modern one. In the Roman world this simply was not the case. Slaves in Roman times could come from any area.”
Dr Eckardt continued: “We’re looking at a population mix which is much closer to contemporary Britain than previous historians had suspected. In the case of York, the Roman population may have had more diverse origins than the city has now.
“This skull is particularly interesting, because the stone sarcophagus she was buried in, and the richness of the grave goods, means she was a very wealthy woman.”
The research, A Lady of York; migration, ethnicity and identity in Roman Britain, is published in the March edition of the journal Antiquity. The “Ivory Bangle Lady” will be the centrepiece of an exhibition at the Yorkshire Museum in August entitled Roman York: Meet the People of the Empire.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Some more stuff from the rich lady's grave
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Very interesting that Ivory Bangle Lady is no new find. Her stone coffin was unearthed back in 1901.
I find it refreshing that the Ivory Bangle Lady's reconstucted features have been labeled North African. It's a breakthrough that African black facial features are finally being associated with North Africa displacing the "blonde Berber" and the uniformily caucasian stereotype lies.
A computerised reconstruction of how the Ivory Bangle Lady could have looked. Image credit: Dr Hella Eckardt/University of Reading
The complete article that newspapers/blogs reported on is:
S. Leach, H. Eckardt, C. Chenery, G. Müldner, M. Lewis A Lady of York: migration, ethnicity and identity in Roman Britain Antiquity, Volume: 84 Number: 323 Page: 131-145. http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/084/ant0840131.htm
The authors' affiliations are: Department of Archaeology, School of Human and Environmental Sciences, University of Reading, Reading RG6 6AB, UK
NERC Isotope Geoscience Laboratory, British Geological Survey, Kingsley Dunham Centre, Keyworth, Nottingham NG12 5GG, UK
The quarterly review's blurb on its article reads: Modern methods of analysis applied to cemeteries have often been used in our pages to suggest generalities about mobility and diet. But these same techniques applied to a single individual, together with the grave goods and burial rite, can open a special kind of personal window on the past. Here, the authors of a multidisciplinary project use a combination of scientific techniques to illuminate Roman York, and later Roman history in general, with their image of a glamorous mixed-race woman, in touch with Africa, Christianity, Rome and Yorkshire.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''BTW, I await your response to my earlier posts. For someone who is learned in the classics you are ignorant of world history..esp. to claim with a straight face no witten records existed in Africa until the 19th century with Europeans.'' ===
I said black africans never had a written script, not Africa.
Or are you one of these simpletons who thinks everyone from Africa automatically equals black?
The Egyptians, Libyans etc were not black.
Or are you one of these simpletons who thinks everyone from Africa automatically equals black?
The Egyptians, Libyans etc were not black.
Your use of "Black Africans" has no bearing on me nor on history, genetics, and the people of Africa. Sorry for you Im not an Afrocentric, so I don't ascribe to race.
What you consider black differs from what I consider black.
That said the Egyptians were Tropically adapted Africans with studies linking them to populations in the Southern Nile Valley.
So unless you can show me the sister civilization of Egypt on Non-African Soil.
Here is what you wrote...
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: '
You know black sub-saharan africans couldn't even write to record their own history...
Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Who recorded the myths and legends of the black tribes across Africa? White Europeans did from around the 19th century...
You know black sub-saharan africans couldn't even write to record their own history
We have Texts from Egypt, Nubia, Axum, and Arabic manuscripts in West Africa. This fact dismisses your claim.
Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Not a Single Keltic, Teutonic, or Germanic "White European" Text exists either, funny you seem to forget that.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''You did not address the issue of why some pre Greeks looked liked this'' ====
There is no Pelasgian artwork. You are showing Egyptians, the Pelasgians were not Egyptian.
Danaus was from Egypt, but the legend of his arrival in Grrece dates him to the 16th century BC, and Aeschylus made it clear that the Pelasgians were already in Greece before Danaus.
Before Danaus and the Danaids arrived, Argos was ruled by King Pelasgus of the Pelasgians.
The pelasgians left us plenty of art. As noted in the Greek literature the Pelasgians came from Saharan Africa. In Saharan Africa they made Tri-angular figures to represent themselves.
These pelasgians were already familiar with the chariot before they settled Africa.
When the Pelasgians came to the Anatolian region they were familiar with all aspects of the arts.
The Pelasgians left us plenty of vases which give us insight into their culture.
They show us that the pelagians had chariots and a well trained army.
In addition to making vases the Pelasgians also made Kouros statues.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Pelasgians also had writing and kings. On this vase we see a funeral procession.
On this part of the vase we see a swastika and a number of painted signs that look like our 'M'. The Swastika is read Kaka "deliverance, protection and safe keeping', the 'M' sign reads to rain, to fall, pour down. These signs should be read as follows: Rain down safe-keeping for [deceased]".
As you can see the Pelasgians have left of art.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
In 1989, archaeologists discovered a 1,900-year-old wooden sculpture of a black African head in London carved in the first century.
your link didn't work, somebody please post a photo of it or show me where it is already posted, thank you
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Not forgotten really. This Cassiterides is a NW European who will on the one hand protest against attestations of Tin (British) Isles peoples' absence from writing ancient history and that the northern Mediterraneans first gave them higher civilization, yet on the other hand bask in the glow of N. Med civilization because they were an off-white people.
Essentially commiting the same sin (s)he levels against those Afrocentrics who concentrate on peripherals.
Thing is, there are ancient so-called "black African" texts in existence written in Meroitic script, not that ancient Egypt wasn't both an ancient black nation and an African nation, they just weren't south of the Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Not a Single Keltic, Teutonic, or Germanic "White European" Text exists either, funny you seem to forget that.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''BTW, I await your response to my earlier posts. For someone who is learned in the classics you are ignorant of world history..esp. to claim with a straight face no witten records existed in Africa until the 19th century with Europeans.'' ===
I said black africans never had a written script, not Africa.
Or are you one of these simpletons who thinks everyone from Africa automatically equals black?
The Egyptians, Libyans etc were not black.
Blacks invented numerous writing systems. They have left numerous inscriptions throughout Africa engraved in rocks or stela.
The first syllabic writing system of Africans was the Thinite script. This writing was used first by Blacks in Nubia, like the Niger-Congo people who migrated out of this region into the rest of Africa.
The Thinite script provides many of the signs that are included in later scripts used by Africans.
In Nubia, Black Africans were using Thinite symbols before the rise of Egypt to record their ideas and report on important events.
At this time your people may have been living in the caves of the Caucasus mountains.
This writing was later used by Africans to write inscriptions throughout Middle Africa.
The evidence of this writing is found throughout the Sahara. By the time Mande speaking people settled Dar Tichitt they left numerous inscriptions.
The people of Dar Tichitt were Mande speakers. These Mande speaking people also lived in the Fezzan where they were called Garamante/Garamandes. The Garamante settled Crete and are recognized as the Eteo-Cretans or Minoans.
As you can see from the above chart the Linear A signs and Mande/Manding signs are identical. If you look careful you will note that Africans, or Black people had also taken their writing system to Anatolia were your ancestors were living in the Caucasus mountains as hunter-gatherers.
The Minoans, who were Africans introduced Linear A, whose signs are identical to the writing left by Africans throughout the Sahara, like those found at Tichitt and presently represented in the Vai and several other West African scripts.
Africans also invented Meroitic writing. The Meroites havd left us hundreds of inscriptions.
King Tañyidamani, and the Meroitic lion-god Apedemek (110 BC-90 BC)
The most interesting Meroitic text concerning Apedemak is found on the votive tablet of Tañyidamani which is now found in the Paris Museum. On this votive tablet Tañyidamani is depicted on the obverse side , and the god Apedemak on the reverse side.
On the reverse side of the Tañyidamani votive tablet the god Apedemak is depicted wearing a short apron and hemhem crown. On this votive tablet Apedemak also wears armlets, bracelets, a collar and pectoral. Inside a panel in front of Apedemak we find a cursive Meroitic inscription.
The inscriptions in the panel on the reverse side of the votive tablet of King Tañyidamani make it clear that the king acknowledged the important role the god Apedemak played in his life. These inscriptions can be read either from right to left or top to bottom. Reading from right to left we read:
TRANSLITERATION OF REVERSE SIDE OF VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAÑYIDAMANI
1. w e to
2. q tel
3. w to si
4.tone m-k
5. d.[l]..r-i
6.te i
TRANSLATION
1. You (it is Apedemak who) gives guidance.
2. Revitalize support (for me King Tañyidamani).
3. You guide (me) to satisfaction.
4. (And ) much reverence (for your patron).
5. Give (it) amicably (to me).
6. May (it go forth).
Reading this same inscription top to bottom we find the following:
TRANSLITERATION OF THE REVERSE SIDE OF THE VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAÑYIDAMANI
1. w q b-to d-te.
2. e te to m ne l.
3. toe i skr-i.
TRANSLATION
1. (Oh Apedemak) Guide and Make Honor (for your patron).
2. Give here your (full) measure of Good indeed.
3. (It is) thou (Apedemak who) give(s) leave to eminence (for your patron).
Another Tedeqen Artifact:
Funerary stelae of Prince Tedeqen, circa 100-200 B.C.
Clyde could you translate the bottom of this stelae: Thanks
Offering Stela of Tedeqeň
Translation by Clyde Winters:
Woš-i-ne …Tdeqeň …ne …ĥ …ml …. ol … ħo ….lk …tene ..at …mlo …ne… p … rem … eš …. d …. o … tl … wi-ne … el …ĥ …tene ….ete …. eš …. d…. ot …. el … ĥ … tene …ĥe …. ra …. Ke-ne-l ….l …d …tene.
Translation
[Oh] Good Isis (give) Tedeqeň kha, grand inner heart (and) soul to behold the path of rebirth. The good inner heart prays to witness (its) manifestation. (This) bequeathal to open (and) elevate the Object of Respect (i.e., Tedeqeň) gift (of the) Kha’s rebirth (Oh Isis). You give the manifestation of the bequeathal prestige. The gift (of) the Kha’s (and the) external body’s rebirth . Indeed [Tedeqeň] revitalization (will) be the rebirth of the bequeathal (of the Kha).
Your people adopted Minoan writing. Minoan writing was invented by the Keftiu, or Mande speaking people who formerly lived in the Sahara.
Keftiu
Indo-Europeans used this writing to write business documents. We know it as Linear B.
Europeans only got writing from the Egyptians. The Greeks who obtained writing from the Blacks of Africa and Phonesia passed on writing to the Romans.
With the fall of Rome Western Europeans got writing from the African Muslims who taught them the arts and sciences.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Not forgotten really. This Cassiterides is a NW European who will on the hand one protest against attestations of Tin (British) Isles peoples absence from ancient written history and that the northern Mediterraneans first gave them higher civilization, yet on the other hand bask in the glow of N. Med civilizationbecause they were an off-white people.
Essentially commiting the same sin (s)he levels against those Afrocentrics who concentrate on peripherals.
Thing is, there are ancient so-called "black African" texts in existence written in Meroitic script, not that ancient Egypt wasn't both an ancient black nation and an African nation, they just weren't south of the Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Not a single ancient black african text exists.
Not a Single Keltic, Teutonic, or Germanic "White European" Text exists either, funny you seem to forget that.
Im in 100% agreement, Cassiterides is no different than Mike or Ironlion in his approach to history. Try to over glorify a certain 'Race" by ignoring all the actual facts.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^You are one of the few displaying enough intelligence to ask that question.
And that question has befuddled me for years, and still does.
I think it has to do with the Black mans inherent belief, at first meeting, that the White man, being an Albino, posses no threat. They are always more concerned with their traditional local enemies.
This thinking is most acutely demonstrated in the Americas and India.
No, it is recorded by many cultures as they encountered whites that they first present themselves as harmless and almost helpless in the new environment. The natives become ingratiated by their new visitors as their numbers increase. Ultimately, as shown in each case, the white population gathers enough numbers and momentum to steal their host's resources using deceit, alcohol/drugs, and violence. See China Emperor's description of incoming whites prior to their being flooded by Opium by Jews.
Posted by asante (Member # 18532) on :
The original greeks were not black that is actually a insult to our people, the greeks were a bunch of white homosexuals who got civilised by africans.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
quote:Originally posted by asante: The original greeks were not black that is actually a insult to our people, the greeks were a bunch of white homosexuals who got civilised by africans.
You are talking about Classical Greeks, not the Pelasgians.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^You are one of the few displaying enough intelligence to ask that question.
And that question has befuddled me for years, and still does.
I think it has to do with the Black mans inherent belief, at first meeting, that the White man, being an Albino, posses no threat. They are always more concerned with their traditional local enemies.
This thinking is most acutely demonstrated in the Americas and India.
No, it is recorded by many cultures as they encountered whites that they first present themselves as harmless and almost helpless in the new environment. The natives become ingratiated by their new visitors as their numbers increase. Ultimately, as shown in each case, the white population gathers enough numbers and momentum to steal their host's resources using deceit, alcohol/drugs, and violence. See China Emperor's description of incoming whites prior to their being flooded by Opium by Jews.
Your point proves my point:
Whites NEVER ruled China! They took PARTS of it, but never ruled it.
Contrast with India.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
^ True. Like Africa, China proved to be far beyond the resources of the Albinos to depopulate as they did in Americas/Australia/Europe/England where there were small concentrations of Africans/natives to deceive and conquer. With huge populations such as Africa/China, other long term population control and divide and conquer strategies are deployed, i.e. Opium, AIDS, Alcohol, political & economic diversity/division, etc.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^True, the opium wars were particularly heinous. It is said that the sole purpose of the opium wars was to destabilize China, because the Chinese would not purchase British goods, which they considered inferior. Resulting in a huge trade deficit for the British. Their solution, make millions of Chinese non-productive junkies - only the White mind!
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Mike: you're right, in case after case them assisting vassals and rivals against more major states to gain leverage was the case in terms of invasion.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is how Africa fell back in technologies. Unlike China, West Africa bought European goods knowing they were inferior but priced so cheap as to be easily replaced.
Not so easy to regain however is the technology gap. Africa needs to tool up and capture market share of pre-fabs and sundry products currently sourced from China, Mexico, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^True, the opium wars were particularly heinous. It is said that the sole purpose of the opium wars was to destabilize China, because the Chinese would not purchase British goods, which they considered inferior. Resulting in a huge trade deficit for the British. Their solution, make millions of Chinese non-productive junkies - only the White mind!
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
So basically Africa got Walmarted.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Cassiterides is envious and hateful of blacks due to the shame of what his particular people's debt.
Look at his avatar Dagda, his people's "Good God."
Now look at the real Dagda painstakingly researched by Marc.
Note that Dagda was king of the Tuatha de Danaan who were none other than an migrated to Ireland branch of the Danaides of whom Aeschylus makes the Argive king say are black girls. Also note the Celts claimed to be descended from Dana daughter of Dagda.
What are we to conclude other than Cassiterides is ashamed and embarrased?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL And isn't there a legend that Scota the goddess of Scotland was originally from Egypt, as well as the Milesians spending time in Egypt? Of course these are just myths meant to connect the Gaelic peoples with the Bible.
I will say it was silly and quite hilarious of Cassiterides to claim there were no blacks in ancient Britain in an attempt to keep the British "pure" of any African ancestry. Yet I thought it was common knowledge the Romans deployed African mercenaries to different parts of their empire, including Britain.
I also notice his futile excuse for the Danaides originating from Libya/Africa.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: The Pelasgians were not from Africa, but from the north of Greece, north of the Danube.
Several of the Greek deities were Pelasgic, mostly the primordial Titans.
Oceanus = Danube
Part of the Danubius or Istros river was also known as (together with the Black Sea) the Okeanos in ancient times, being called the Okeanos Potamos (Okeanos River). The lower Danube was also called the Keras Okeanoio (Gulf or Horn of Okeanos) in the Argonautica by Apollonius Rhodos (Argon. IV. 282). The lower Danube has a slow, deep, wide course, so it can be seen why it was considered as part of the Okeanos.
Both Homer (Odyssey, XII. 1) and Hesiod (Theogonia, v.242. 959) in their theogonic legends exclusively refer to the lower Danube as the Okeanos Potamos.
The Titan's Cave was in Romania, just adjacent to the Danube.
Interesting theory. While I obviously don't agree with the notion that the Pelasgians were African, there really isn't enough evidence to state conclusively where they came from-- either farther north in Europe or Anatolia. Some features of Pelasgian names are shared with Anatolians and there seems to be signs of Pelasgian invasion from the east, yet most evidence of Pelasgians are to be found in the northern part of Greece opposed to the south, especially in Arcadia and Olympia. So I really don't know. I am curious to know how you connect the Titans with Pelasgian mythology when it is known that the Pelasgian myth was different from the Titanic one. In the Pelasgian myth, the world was created by the goddess Eurynome who with her mate the snake deity Ophion ruled atop Olympus until she kicked her mate out. I will say the Gigantes or sons of Gaia conceived from Uranos's blood bare a striking resemblance to beings depicted in Celtic/Gaulic art-- a man with the legs of serpents.
By the way, the Black Sea was known as Pontos but I seriously doubt Okeanos could definitely be identified as the Danube river when in mythology it was described as a vast ocean that surrounded the land.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''Note that Dagda was king of the Tuatha de Danaan who were none other than an migrated to Ireland branch of the Danaides of whom Aeschylus makes the Argive king say are black girls. Also note the Celts claimed to be descended from Dana daughter of Dagda.'' =====
The Danaides were not Egyptian but Israelites (Danites), and they only traveled from Egypt during the Exodus. According to the Old Testament, the tribe of Dan were a sea-faring people (Judges 5:17) and some managed to escape during the Exodus, moving into Europe.
They arrived in Greece in the 16th century, and according to the Irish chronicles a few centuries later as the Tuatha De Danaan.
The Tuatha De Danaan are described as white skinned and red haired.
The "Lebor Gabala Erren" ("The Book of the Taking of Ireland"), compiled during the 12th century A.D. describes the coming of the mysterious Tuatha de' Danann or Tribe of Danu. They are described as tall, white skinned, blond or red-haired.
Verse 131 of 'The Second Battle of Mag Tuired', describes the skin Tuatha Dé Danann's as white (translated by Elizabeth A. Gray, 1983):
''Many beautiful men fell there in the stall of death. Great was the slaughter and the grave-lying which took place there. Pride and shame were there side by side. There was anger and indignation. Abundant was the stream of blood over the white skin of young warriors mangled by the hands of bold men while rushing into danger for shame.''
So why are the Tuatha De Danaan described in the earliest Irish manuscripts as white skinned and blonde or red haired if they were black africans?
Do you guys actually believe what you type, or do you just do it to try to upset/attack whites buy trying to steal their heritage? Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''LOL And isn't there a legend that Scota the goddess of Scotland was originally from Egypt'' ====
The earliest manuscript physically depicting Scota shows her as white skinned:
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Caucasians mostly entered Europe during the Germanic Migration Period which was after the 5th century AD.
Here is a quote you can further research by browsing with the key words GERMANIC MIGRATION PERIOD. Germany itself, for instance, didn't come in existence as a nation until the 19th century.
^ The indigenous populations were of the same racial stock as those of succeeding migrations, hence they were assimilated so quickly. They were of the same phenotype, and in various examples of similar culture, language and customs.
Professor Huxley:
''The invasion of the Saxons, the Goths, the Danes and the Normans changed the language of Britain, but added no new physical element. Therefore we should not talk any more of Celts and Saxons, for they are all one. I never lose an opportunity of rooting up the false idea that the Celts and Saxons are different races".
Professor Freeman in his "Origin of the English Nation" says:
"Tribe after tribe, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, poured across the sea to make new homes in the Isle of Britain. Thus grew up the English nation - a nation formed by union of various tribes of the same stock. The Dane hardly needed assimilation. He was another kindred tribe, coming later than the others. Even the Norman was a kinsman".
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Also the Venus Figurines are only dated by carbon dating, not historical dating via the classical record.
Carbon dating is not accurate. There is no evidence therefore that the Venus Figurines are that old.
Btw, i also noticed that Afrocentrics never show the Venus of Brassempouy figurine...
Aldous Huxley was very much a product of his time: racist, snobbish and superior.
The Brassempouy head? Fake?
[In] 1926, workmen admitted prehistoric bone found in excavations admitted manufacturing the bone artifacts themselves ... This phenomena of workers being paid by the find was common in the early days of archeologh and helps to cast doubt on the authenticity of many objects which lack clear provenance such as the Brassempouy head.
Wide nose does not always automatically mean negro ancestry. The above Dane is fully white.
You also said the following:
''While the newcomers colonists i.e suitors…were said to have flowing hair.''
Nope that's false, we are told quite clear that the native Greek populations were always straight haired.
The ancient Greeks knew they were straight haired (ἴθυ-θριξ , τρι^χος), as well as other northern populations, while in sharp contrast the western ethiopians (Black Africans) woolly haired. Aristotle for example wrote (Gen. An. 5.3.782B):
‘‘Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for they themselves and the environing air are moist, whereas the Aethiopians and men in the hottest countries are curly-haired…’’
Long straight hair was worn by the Spartans from the age of puberty (Plutarch, Lyc. 16).
Socrates
Aristotle (right)
Aristotle
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ The indigenous populations were of the same racial stock as those of succeeding migrations, hence they were assimilated so quickly. They were of the same phenotype, and in various examples of similar culture, language and customs.
Professor Huxley:
''The invasion of the Saxons, the Goths, the Danes and the Normans changed the language of Britain, but added no new physical element. Therefore we should not talk any more of Celts and Saxons, for they are all one. I never lose an opportunity of rooting up the false idea that the Celts and Saxons are different races".
Professor Freeman in his "Origin of the English Nation" says:
"Tribe after tribe, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, poured across the sea to make new homes in the Isle of Britain. Thus grew up the English nation - a nation formed by union of various tribes of the same stock. The Dane hardly needed assimilation. He was another kindred tribe, coming later than the others. Even the Norman was a kinsman".
cassiterides - Thank you for posting this. It serves as an abject lesson in the corrupt nature of White history.
None of those people had any EVIDENCE for their declarations. It was merely what they as interloping Albinos WANTED to believe, and so in true Albino fashion they declared it as fact.
It was then taken up by populations of Albinos: themselves eager for a White history, when in fact there was none.
Until finally it got to you; and as with the Albinos before, you were eager for anything that would allow you to claim an ancient history. And as with the Albinos before, all you can lay claim to is a lie.
The truth that you will not accept, is that while Albinos like you were illiterate Nomads in central Asia. Blacks had for thousand of years earlier, settled every habitable corner of the planet, and created mans founding civilizations.
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
If there where Blacks in Ancient Greece, we have proof that there where Blacks in Europe as early as 800 BC. These escaped the supposed whitening that happenend 6000 years ago, when according to eurocentrism European Blacks miracuolesly turned white!
Frank Snowden in his Blacks in Antiquity (1971) does not seem to speculate about the time when the Black persons he identifies(800BC-300AD)came to Europe, or how many generations they were already present in Europe.
I believe that the Classical African type, was used in art, to symbolise all Blacks. Many images are not actual persons.
He never mentions that the person who made an images of a African could have been an African himself, or the client was African and prefered a Black statue, or something Black.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
@Cassiterides
Stop making nonsense. Don't you know the Beta Israel of Ethiopia are recognized by the rabbanate to be the Tribe of Dan?
Start making sense. How many centuries passed from the days of the Tuatha De until the time you folk were taught to write and then until your people composed Lebor Gabala Erren? Something like two millennia.
Does Dagda look like a white Caucasian to you?
What are we to conclude other than Cassiterides is ashamed and embarrased?
Still waiting for you to answer why it is blacks south of the Sahara had two scripts and innumerous text before you Tin (British) Isles people were ever even heard of?
And how do you account for rich prominent blacks in York while at the same time no mention in all of ancient literature of a Tin Isles person of even lowly status anywhere in the Mediterranean civs you claim as yours by slight of hand?
Well?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: The earliest manuscript physically depicting Scota shows her as white skinned:
I never said anything about her skin color. I would imagine a goddess of Scotland to be white, however here is what the legends state: Fenius became the father of Niúl. His son Niúl had married an Egyptian princess named Scota. It goes on to say that the son of Niúl and Scota, named Goídel Glas, was living at the time of Moses and the Israelites were still living in slavery in Egypt. Moses had healed the infant Goídel Glas from a snakebite, and foretold that Goídel's descendants would one day live in a land with no serpents. Fenius Farisaid was still alive to instruct his grandson on creating the Gaelic language. (Boy! This is Irish myth at its best. The time frame is really horribly mess up.)
Again, anyone who knows Irish legend should know that such stories were concoctions meant to connect the Gaelic people with Biblical history. Nothing more, nothing less.
By the way, the Tuatha de Danaan were the people of the Goddess Danu who was likely the goddess of the River Danube and NOT the Danaides of Greek myth who were named after the Libyan king Danaus whose name means "sleeper" and is different from the Celtic word Danu which means "swift moving" or "flowing" indicative of the river Danube which was the likely origin of all Celtic culture.
So I disagree with the notion that the Danaans were Africans.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
My statement in unmisconstrued context
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Now look at the real Dagda painstakingly researched by Marc.
Note that Dagda was king of the Tuatha de Danaan who were none other than an migrated to Ireland branch of the Danaides of whom Aeschylus makes the Argive king say are black girls. Also note the Celts claimed to be descended from Dana daughter of Dagda.
Now forward on to the reasoning behind it.
"Danaus, the father of fifty daughters on coming to Argos took up his abode in the city of Inarchos and throughout Hellas (i.e., Greece). He laid down the law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be named Danaans" Strabo 5.2.40
The words may be unrelated but the Greek usage of Danaan means tribes of Danaus. Danaus' daughters are foundation mythology hence my relating them to Ireland's Tuatha De Danaan meaning tribes of Dana.
I'm not alone in this interpretation of the myths and David Hughes in The British Chronicles has melded both our views and then some.
Of course with mythology there are always variations especially in Irish myth and legend where details vary not only from teller to teller but also within the same teller's tale.
From Gerald Massey:
The divine mother of the Tuatha is known by the name of Danan. The Tuatha are the tribe or people of the goddess Danan, who is also the deëss of death. Now, there is an Egyptian goddess Tanan who is a form of Hathor=the amorous queen in the earth of Tanen, the land of the nocturnal sun and the domain of the dead. The god Tanen is lord of that land, and the goddess is identified with Hathor by her headdress. The name of Tanan may also be written Tann. This agrees [Page 636] with the naming of the Welsh and Irish goddess Danu or Danan. Her name takes the form of Don in Welsh, and the deities who descend from her, like Gwydion and Arianrhod, are called the children of Don. The Tuatha de Danan are also termed the Fir Déa, or men of the goddess. Hence we propose to identify the goddess Tanen with Danan or Danu, the Great Mother of the Tuatha de Danan, who were the people of the goddess as the souls of the dead in the divine Neter-Kar, i.e. in Tanen, and who issued from the Tuat with the sun or solar god as the men of the Goddess, who was Tanan in Egypt, Danan in Ireland, and Don in Britain. The men of the goddess, as we suggest, were the Tuata of the Pyramid Texts, who as divine ancestors become the Irish Tuatha de Danan.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, the Tuatha de Danaan were the people of the Goddess Danu who was likely the goddess of the River Danube and NOT the Danaides of Greek myth who were named after the Libyan king Danaus whose name means "sleeper" and is different from the Celtic word Danu which means "swift moving" or "flowing" indicative of the river Danube which was the likely origin of all Celtic culture.
So I disagree with the notion that the Danaans were Africans.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Does Dagda look like a white Caucasian to you?
What are we to conclude
alTakruri, this is disappointing. This is how you do things, look at some unsourced small medallion or coin, not even a photo but an illustration, and make racial determinations based on that?
all of the sudden when theres a white supremacist lurking you loose your scholarly standards out the window?
two sides of the same coin
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egmond Codfried: If there where Blacks in Ancient Greece, we have proof that there where Blacks in Europe as early as 800 BC. These escaped the supposed whitening that happenend 6000 years ago, when according to eurocentrism European Blacks miracuolesly turned white!
Frank Snowden in his Blacks in Antiquity (1971) does not seem to speculate about the time when the Black persons he identifies(800BC-300AD)came to Europe, or how many generations they were already present in Europe.
I believe that the Classical African type, was used in art, to symbolise all Blacks. Many images are not actual persons.
He never mentions that the person who made an images of a African could have been an African himself, or the client was African and prefered a Black statue, or something Black.
You also have to remember that Snowden only talked about the Blacks that came to Greece from Africa the Ethiopians. He did not discuss the native Afro-Greeks who would have been citizens of the city states, they often had founded.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
When Mr. Marc Washington of the Philadelphia Washingtons posts an image you can lay to rest any doubts of its authenticity. If you want more on the image's provenance you must address Mr. Washington as I said earlier I can rely on his painstaking research while often disagreeing with his conclusions.
The penny is a small coin and though copper coated I can conclude by features that the man on it is white.
You, my dear pussy-puss, have made strides since your debut but as of yet I can't rely on you without follow up.
In any event racists are to be paid in coin. You understand?
Meanwhile what do you make of Cernunnos?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Does Dagda look like a white Caucasian to you?
What are we to conclude
alTakruri, this is disappointing. This is how you do things, look at some unsourced small medallion or coin, not even a photo but an illustration, and make racial determinations based on that?
all of the sudden when theres a white supremacist lurking you loose your scholarly standards out the window?
two sides of the same coin
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
From Gerald Massey:
The divine mother of the Tuatha is known by the name of Danan. The Tuatha are the tribe or people of the goddess Danan, who is also the deëss of death. Now, there is an Egyptian goddess Tanan who is a form of Hathor=the amorous queen in the earth of Tanen, the land of the nocturnal sun and the domain of the dead. The god Tanen is lord of that land, and the goddess is identified with Hathor by her headdress. The name of Tanan may also be written Tann. This agrees [Page 636] with the naming of the Welsh and Irish goddess Danu or Danan. Her name takes the form of Don in Welsh, and the deities who descend from her, like Gwydion and Arianrhod, are called the children of Don. The Tuatha de Danan are also termed the Fir Déa, or men of the goddess. Hence we propose to identify the goddess Tanen with Danan or Danu, the Great Mother of the Tuatha de Danan, who were the people of the goddess as the souls of the dead in the divine Neter-Kar, i.e. in Tanen, and who issued from the Tuat with the sun or solar god as the men of the Goddess, who was Tanan in Egypt, Danan in Ireland, and Don in Britain. The men of the goddess, as we suggest, were the Tuata of the Pyramid Texts, who as divine ancestors become the Irish Tuatha de Danan.
I disagree with this speculation which is based on weak linguistics as a matter word resemblance. The Irish goddess Danu (Welsh Don, British Dana) is related to and very likely the same as the goddess worshiped by Celts on the mainland which is always associated with the river Danube, again the site of the earliest Celtic culture.
I am not denying the possibility of any African influence on the British Isles or even Ireland, but I'm just saying the argument of the Tuatha de being African seems silly. I will say an African origin does seem more plausible and the argument stronger for previous peoples and older inhabitants described in the Irish cycles who were described as having darker features and were associated with the land of the dead to the far south.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
It is a known fact that Africans have been crossing the Mediterranean to Greece and elsewhere since time immemorial even until this day.
quote: The Charioteer of Delphi, also known as Heniokhos (the rein-holder), is one of the best-known statues surviving from Ancient Greece, and is considered one of the finest examples of ancient bronze statues. The life-size statue of a chariot driver was found in 1896 at the Sanctuary of Apollo in Delphi. It is now in the Delphi Archaeological Museum.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is a known fact that Africans have been crossing the Mediterranean to Greece and elsewhere since time immemorial even until this day.
quote: The Charioteer of Delphi, also known as Heniokhos (the rein-holder), is one of the best-known statues surviving from Ancient Greece, and is considered one of the finest examples of ancient bronze statues. The life-size statue of a chariot driver was found in 1896 at the Sanctuary of Apollo in Delphi. It is now in the Delphi Archaeological Museum.
so this bronze Charioteer of Delphi is your example of an African? On what basis?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Meanwhile what do you make of Cernunnos?
you have got to be kidding. Somebody is supposed to determine race based on this? You'd be laughed out of anthropology 101.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Massey is easy enough to discount but Hughes shows that not only the Danube but the Don and Dneiper derive their names from a colony of Danaids. He credits the cult of the goddess Danu to African immigrants with the foundation myth name Danaus (father of the Danaids). One is free to disagree with anything but the only thing "silly" about it is blindly rejecting it out of hand without analysing the comparative mythos and considering the Irish's own view.
To follow up Hughes' first sentence in the previous post on the 17th century Irish Roman Catholic priest, poet, and historian Geoffrey Keating on Danaid Greece as the foundation for the Tuatha De Danaan
quote:The fourth name was Éire, and it is said that wherefore that name is called to it, according to a certain author, is from this word 'Aeria,' which was an old name for the island which is now called Creta or Candia; and why that author thinks that is because the posterity of Gaedheal glas[113] dwelt in that island some space of time after Sru, son of Easru, son of Gaedheal, had been driven out of Egypt: and, moreover, Aere is given as a name for Egypt whence the Gael proceeded. However, it is the common opinion of antiquaries that why it is called Éire is from the name of the queen of the Tuatha Dé Danann who was in the land at the time of the coming of the Clanna Míleadh[114] into it: Éire, daughter of Dealbhaoth, was her name, and it is she was wife to Mac Gréine who was called Ceathúr who was king of Ireland when the sons of Míleadh came into it.
The History of Ireland Comyn & Dinneen translation pp 54, 82, 84
19th century Irish historian Thomas Moore on pg 57 of his The History of Ireland cosigns the above by Keating.
None of this is bona fide history or valid etymology but it shows what were the beliefs of the people as they explained them through myth and legend. While myth is fanciful, legend has a trace in fact.
The face of Dagda on the coin Marc posted and the Tuatha De Danann's relation to the Danaids indicate some part played by African descendents in Celtic Ireland. My admitted enthusiast speculation that the face of the Good God relects the face of Danaus the the code name for the African migrant founders of Argos, tieing it all into the thread's subject header The Black in Ancient Greece.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm asking art interpretation not anthropology. Looking at that face what kind of people look similar to it to you? Just answer the question instead of evading it in fear of stating the obvious which apparently you don't want to do because you don't like what you see.
contrasted with
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Meanwhile what do you make of Cernunnos?
you have got to be kidding. Somebody is supposed to determine race based on this? You'd be laughed out of anthropology 101.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
^ You just left out the fact that the Irish chronicles described the Tuatha De Danaan as WHITE SKINNED and red or blonde haired.
Go troll/decieve/lie elsewhere.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Someone said:
quote:I said black africans never had a written script, not Africa.
. .
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
[Someone quoted Huxley's writings]:
Professor Huxley:
''The invasion of the Saxons, the Goths, the Danes and the Normans changed the language of Britain, but added no new physical element. Therefore we should not talk any more of Celts and Saxons, for they are all one. I never lose an opportunity of rooting up the false idea that the Celts and Saxons are different races".
Professor Freeman in his "Origin of the English Nation" says:
"Tribe after tribe, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, poured across the sea to make new homes in the Isle of Britain. Thus grew up the English nation - a nation formed by union of various tribes of the same stock. The Dane hardly needed assimilation. He was another kindred tribe, coming later than the others. Even the Norman was a kinsman".
___________________________________________
Really? Britannica Encyclopedia disagrees with Huxley:
Archeological researches in Europe have proved the existence in Europe, from Neolithic times, of a race of small stature, with long oval skulls, who buried their dead in tombs … the racial characteristics of ‘Iberians’ has been identified with the ‘small dark highlander,’ and the Black Celts … Thus a race with fairly uniform characteristics was at one time in possession of the South of France, the whole of Spain from the Pyrenees to the Straights; the Canary Islands; a part of North Africa and Corsica.” Britannica, 1951, Iberian, p. 31A, Vol. 12. Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Prof. Giuseppe Sergi is called by some the Father of Anthropology. Grafton Elliott Smith, Professor of Anatomy at the Cairo School of Medicine, wrote:
“I should like to emphasize a statement made by Prof. Giuseppe Sergi: ‘The family likeness between the early Neolithic peoples of the British Isles … [and] a description of the bones of an early Briton … might apply in all essential details to the inhabitants of Somailand.’ ” In: G. E. Smith, The ancient Egyptians and the origin of civilization,, p. 65.
. .
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
King Hammurabi the WHITE king:
"Hammurabi, the prince, called of Bel am I, making riches and increase,...who enriched Ur;...the white king,...the mighty, who again laid the foundations of Sippara...the lord who granted new life to Uruk, who brought plenteous water to its inhabitants...the White, Potent, who penetrated the secret cave of the bandits ..."
- The Code of Hammurabi, R.F. Harper, University of Chicago Press, 1904
You might therefore want to take Hammurabi off your list of black africans...going through your list you might as well take everyone else off as they were not black either.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
Like Afrocentrics they have the same agenda to remove white skinned people and blonde and redheads from ancient history. The only difference between Medicists and Afrocentrics, is that Medicists claim everyone was ''olive skinned'' and not black.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Someone wrote:
quote:You might … want to take Hammurabi off your list of black africans...going through your list you might as well take everyone else off as they were not black either.
Written in the 13th century or just 600 years ago.
Your people had no scripts therefore left no texts from ancient times unlike the ancient Sudanese and ancient Eritreansand Ethiopians.
Blacks were the cream of the crop in Roman era Tin (British) Isles. But your people leave no record in Mediterranean civilizations of either Africa, Levant, or Europe.
Why is that?
You have evaded commenting on this fact like five or six times now to your shame and embarrassment.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ You just left out the fact that the Irish chronicles described the Tuatha De Danaan as WHITE SKINNED and red or blonde haired.
Go troll/decieve/lie elsewhere.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
And you, unable to show high civilization in your Tin (British) Isles do the typical NW Eurocentric thing, try to assume the civilizations of the very Mediterraneans you cry against as your own. Why is that?
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''Prof. Giuseppe Sergi'' ====
Sergi was a MEDICIST. He believed in the superiority of the 'mediterranean race' and attacked white northern europeans.
No scholar today takes his crap seriously. Medicism is the equivilant to Afrocentric authors.
Like Afrocentrics they have the same agenda to remove white skinned people and blonde and redheads from ancient history. The only difference between Medicists and Afrocentrics, is that Medicists claim everyone was ''olive skinned'' and not black.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Skara Brae, Shetland had the ''worlds earliest toilets'' and hot water pipes.
Ancient astronomical observatories across Britain and Ireland:
The lawgiver, Molmutius, 450 B.C based his laws on the code of Brutus, 1100 B.C. He was the son of Cloton, Duke of Cornwall (which was and continued to be a royal dukedom) and is referred to in ancient documents as Dyfn-val-meol-meod, and because of his wisdom has been called the 'Solomon' of Britain.
- Ancient Laws of Cambria (British Museum, 5805, A.A. 4). Myv. Arch., Vol. II, Brut Tysillo
'Centuries before the Romans gained a footing in this country the inhabitants were a polished and intellectual people, with a system of jurisprudence of their own, superior even to the laws of Rome, and the Romans acknowledged this.'
- Yeatman, Early English History, p. 9 - 10
Roads
The so-called Roman roads in Britain were constructed centuries BEFORE the Romans came to these islands. The dover to Holyhead causeway, called Sarn Wydellin or Irish Road, later became corrupted into Watling Street; the Sarn Ikin, later Icknield street, led from London northwards through the eastern district, and Sarn Achmaen from London to Menevia (St. David's). These were causeways or raised roads (not mere trackways as sometimes erroneously stated), except where raised road were impossible, and this accounts for the term 'Holloway' in some parts of the country.
Jewellery
When the Romans invaded Britain in A.D. 43 they found the inhabitants in possession of a gold coinage, wrought shields of bronze and enamelled ornaments. Fine specimens of richly enamelled horses' trappings may be seen in the British Museum, and the bronze shield found in the Thames, near Battersea, adorned with enamelled designs, Rice Holmes describes as 'the noblest creation of late Celtic art.'
The British tin mines were, from the earliest times, world renowned. Diodorus Siculus states, 'These people obtain the tin by skilfully working the soil which produces it.'
Herodotus speaks of the British Isles under the general term 'Cassiterides or the Tin Islands. Bede mentions copper, iron, lead and silver. 'Gold, too, was mined on a small scale in Wales, and on a large scale in Ireland where was situated in early times the centre of the goldmining industry.' Bede mentions also, as semi-precious, the jet for which Whitby is famous even now.The lead mines of Britain were worked long before the Roman occupation, and it is believed that during the partial domination by Rome, the mining continued to be carried out by Celtic workmen.
Dr.John Phillips, the geologist, stated in 1855 that without due consideration being given to the lead-mining industry, our ideas 'of the ancient British people would be altogether conjectural, derogatory and erroneous'.
Derbyshire was the chief centre of lead-mining, and is so mentioned in Domesday Book.
Geoffrey of Monmouth and Nennius were disgarded for many years, but in 1917 Flinders Petrie presented a paper to the British Academy entitled ''Neglected British History''.
''By any one reading the best modern authorities on history, it would hardly be expected that the fullest account that we have of early British history is entirely ignored. While we may see a few, and contemptuous, references to Nennius or Gildas, the name of the so-called Tysilio’s Chronicle is never given, nor is any use made of its record. Yet it is of the highest value, for, as we shall see farther on, the internal evidence shows that it is based on British documents extending back to the first century.''
Flinders discovered the source for Geoffrey of Monmouth's ''Historia Regum Britanniae'' (1136). The preface of Geoffrey's work credits "a certain very ancient book" written in ancient British given by Walter of Oxford. This book was recorded by the Welsh prince Tysilio, from sources as early as the first century. This has been confirmed by a colophon on the 'Brut Tysilio', a variant manuscript of the ''Brut y Brenhinedd''. Geffrei Gaimar a contemporary of Geoffrey of Monmouth, also documentated the existance of the ''very ancient book'' in his ''L'Estoire des Engleis''.
All the evidence certianly shows there were ancient written books and sources in Britain, long before the first credited British historians (Gildas, Nennius). Geoffrey's book was, as Finders proved, not pseudo-history. James Macpherson in 1760 also discovered an ancient Gaelic manuscript going back to the 3rd century AD which confirmed there were many ancient writings in Britain before the mainstream approved date.
Every Afrocentric on the net uses the same limited sources.
I'm sure you will be quoting Godfrey Higgins next...
Basically you can only quote cranks or loons...
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
King Hammurabi the WHITE king:
"Hammurabi, the prince, called of Bel am I, making riches and increase,...who enriched Ur;...the white king,...the mighty, who again laid the foundations of Sippara...the lord who granted new life to Uruk, who brought plenteous water to its inhabitants...the White, Potent, who penetrated the secret cave of the bandits ..."
- The Code of Hammurabi, R.F. Harper, University of Chicago Press, 1904
You might therefore want to take Hammurabi off your list of black africans...going through your list you might as well take everyone else off as they were not black either.
cassiterides - As before, all you manage to do is demonstrate the lying, corrupt, nature of Whites and their histories. For you are correct in your quotes of hammurabi's code, as a matter of fact, there are three such instances.
This is so important that I will start a new thread to demonstrate your mistake for bringing it up.
HAMMURABI'S CODE OF LAWS (circa 1780 B.C.)
Translated by L. W. King (08 December 1869–20 August 1919)
the white king, heard of Shamash, the mighty, who again laid the foundations of Sippara;
The divine king of the city; the White, Wise; who broadened the fields of Dilbat
The White, Potent, who penetrated the secret cave of the bandits.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I am not denying the possibility of any African influence on the British Isles or even Ireland, but I'm just saying the argument of the Tuatha de being African seems silly. I will say an African origin does seem more plausible and the argument stronger for previous peoples and older inhabitants described in the Irish cycles who were described as having darker features and were associated with the land of the dead to the far south.
What do you mean by "older inhabitants"? I can accept Africans moving into Britain during the Roman period, but is there any evidence for Africans sailing to northern Europe before that?
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
''What do you mean by "older inhabitants"? I can accept Africans moving into Britain during the Roman period, but is there any evidence for Africans sailing to northern Europe before that?'' =====
1. There were no Africans in Britain during the Roman period. 2. There were no Africans in Britain before the Romans.
The first Africans only entered Britain around the 15th or 16th century. The first recorded date of a negro in Britain is 1593.
Blacks are immigrants to UK, they are not indigenous and have no history here.
With Britain now having a virtually open door to immigrant policy - blacks (and Asians) are now taking over large areas of UK. London is going to be no longer white by 2022.
White indigenous British already minority in London Schools:
Is this the best you can do, post a snippet from an ethnocentric enthusiast non-academic 1931 British Israelite source Colquhoun's Our Descent from Israel Proved by Cumulative [non-] Evidence? Talk about cranks and loons, your choice of source debunks itself.
Good gosh that you never went secondary school leave alone university shows in your selection. And besides that nothing of high civilization appears in your post anyway. All it evidences is that your people were human beings because every people have culture. But culture alone does not high civilization make.
Maybe neolithic Skara Brae had toilets and maybe they didn't. There is no conclusive evidence and has no bearing on Tin (British) Isles during the 3000 BCE - 200 CE timeframe the era of ancient high civilizations. The Skara Brae has no relation to you. Your people emptied their slop pots right out on the streets which is one reason besides not taking regular baths or washing hands before meals that plagues were so common.
Molmutius is mythological and Brutus, from whom the myths say he got his laws was supposed to be a Trojan, clearly nonsense and again a tribute to the Med civ that raised your people up.
If your people had roads the Romans wouldn't have had to build ones to southern Wales and Cornwall, north Wales, Lincoln, and another one to connect those three.
Ogham is not an ancient script it only dates to the 4th century when blacks were already in the isle's high society. Ogham scratchings on rocks comes 1000 years after Sudanese and Eritreans/Ethiopians were composing texts in Meroitic and Geez.
Really, you methodology and outdated references suck and differ not from what you fault others.
Conclusions: - the Tin (British) Isles were no part of ancient high civilization - had no texts or even a script - weren't any component of Mediterranean civilization whether African, Levantine, or European.
And this is why you rant and rave so much, a coverup for your shame and embarrassment.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: -- a whole lot of nothing --
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The Ostrich Theory doesn't work. Reposting for the 2nd time for those who are stupid, in denial, or both.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ... the first written record of a black in Britain dates to 1593.
There were no blacks in UK in ancient times.
You are incorrect on both counts as blacks are documented at Hadrian's Wall in the 2nd century and then there's the archaeological record.
Let's not forget this high ranking Lady of the Ivory Bangle and let's ask were there any Tin (British) Isles folk of such a considerable rank in Africa or the rest of the Mediterranean for that matter?
quote:Borders Folks May Be Descended From Africans (Hadrian's Wall)
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6-11-2004 | David Derbershire
Archaeologists say there is compelling evidence that a 500-strong unit of Moors manned a fort near Carlisle in the third century AD.
Richard Benjamin, an archaeologist at Liverpool University who has studied the history of black Britons, believes many would have settled and raised families.
"When you talk about Romans in Britain, most people think about blue eyes and pale complexions," he said. "But the reality was very different."
Writing in the journal British Archaeology, Mr Benjamin describes a fourth century inscription discovered in Beaumount, two miles from the remains of the Aballava fort at Burgh by Sands. The inscription refers to the "numerus of Aurelian Moors" - a unit of North Africans, probably named after the emperor Marcus Aurelius.
The unit is also mentioned in the Notitia Dignitatum, a Roman list of officials and dignitaries. It describes the prefect of the "numeri Maurorum Aurelianorum, Aballaba".
The unit was probably mustered in the Roman province of Mauretania, in modern-day Morocco, by the emperor Septimus Severus and arrived in Britain in the second or third centuries AD. Aballava lay at the western end of Hadrian's Wall in Cumbria.
Mr Benjamin suspects that the unit would have been blooded in battles in Germany and the Danube where more inscriptions refer to a unit of Moors. Their number is unknown, but the fort could have held up to 500 men.
"There was freedom of movement for civilians and those in administration of the armed forces. Discharge certificates indicate that the veteran soldiers settled in Britain," he said. "Soldiers would have had plenty of money to spend in native settlements on the outskirts of the forts. They would have sought entertainment in brothels. Many would probably have wanted more permanent relationships."
Mr Benjamin is calling for a major study of black Roman Britons. He believes that DNA tests of locals could reveal genetic links with modern-day north Africans, while skeletons of Romans found in the area might contain telltale clues to their childhood origins.
Buildings in the village may have been built from recycled Roman materials. Some might be of African origin, he said.
The unit is likely to have been composed of Berbers from North Africa, but may also have had darker-skinned soldiers from Nubia.
Scientific research techniques have established that a lavish grave containing a woman’s skeleton, an ivory bangle, perfume bottle, mirror and jewellery, belonged to a North African member of York’s high society in the 4th century.
Her sarcophagus, which was made of stone, a sign of immense wealth in Roman Britain, was discovered in 1901 in Bootham, York. The city was then a legionary fortress and civilian settlement called Eboracum, founded by the Romans in AD 71.
Her well-preserved remains showed that she was 1.5m (5ft 1in) and aged between 18 and 23. There were no signs of a violent death, and muscle markings showed that she had not lived a strenuous life, suggesting that she was affluent. Among the goods found in her grave was a bone with the inscription “Sor ave vivas in Deo” (Hail, sister, may you live in God), suggesting that she may also have been a Christian.
A bracelet of jet, probably from Whitby, North Yorkshire, showed that she had access to local trade networks. Researchers from the University of Reading’s department of archaeology believe that the ivory bangle, an artefact rarely found in Roman Britain, may have been kept by the woman as a memento of home.
“The link between slavery and Africans is an early modern one. In the Roman world this simply was not the case. Slaves in Roman times could come from any area.”
Dr Eckardt continued: “We’re looking at a population mix which is much closer to contemporary Britain than previous historians had suspected. In the case of York, the Roman population may have had more diverse origins than the city has now.
“This skull is particularly interesting, because the stone sarcophagus she was buried in, and the richness of the grave goods, means she was a very wealthy woman.”
The research, A Lady of York; migration, ethnicity and identity in Roman Britain, is published in the March edition of the journal Antiquity. The “Ivory Bangle Lady” will be the centrepiece of an exhibition at the Yorkshire Museum in August entitled Roman York: Meet the People of the Empire.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Some more stuff from the rich lady's grave
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Very interesting that Ivory Bangle Lady is no new find. Her stone coffin was unearthed back in 1901.
I find it refreshing that the Ivory Bangle Lady's reconstucted features have been labeled North African. It's a breakthrough that African black facial features are finally being associated with North Africa displacing the "blonde Berber" and the uniformily caucasian stereotype lies.
A computerised reconstruction of how the Ivory Bangle Lady could have looked. Image credit: Dr Hella Eckardt/University of Reading
The complete article that newspapers/blogs reported on is:
S. Leach, H. Eckardt, C. Chenery, G. Müldner, M. Lewis A Lady of York: migration, ethnicity and identity in Roman Britain Antiquity, Volume: 84 Number: 323 Page: 131-145. http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/084/ant0840131.htm
The authors' affiliations are: Department of Archaeology, School of Human and Environmental Sciences, University of Reading, Reading RG6 6AB, UK
NERC Isotope Geoscience Laboratory, British Geological Survey, Kingsley Dunham Centre, Keyworth, Nottingham NG12 5GG, UK
The quarterly review's blurb on its article reads: Modern methods of analysis applied to cemeteries have often been used in our pages to suggest generalities about mobility and diet. But these same techniques applied to a single individual, together with the grave goods and burial rite, can open a special kind of personal window on the past. Here, the authors of a multidisciplinary project use a combination of scientific techniques to illuminate Roman York, and later Roman history in general, with their image of a glamorous mixed-race woman, in touch with Africa, Christianity, Rome and Yorkshire.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: With Britain now having a virtually open door to immigrant policy - blacks (and Asians) are now taking over large areas of UK. London is going to be no longer white by 2022.
White indigenous British already minority in London Schools:
Ancient skulls don't have skin on them. So that reconstruction is nothing more than pure imagination.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
By now I'm sure everyone realizes what an academic fraud Cassiterides is and those who misplaced trust in him/her realize the gravity of their mistake.
Since Cassiterides is revealed as a follower of the British Israelite cult there's no further need for me to waste my time and effort countering his nonsensical myth laden rantings. I leave it to others to use their own resources to easily uncover the fallacies of nis/her positions.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Afro-Greeks were not called Ethiopian. They were native to Greece when the Indo-Europeans came to Greece, Homer, who was an Afro-Greek refered to his people as xanthos (brown) in color.
The earliest inhabitants of Greece and the Aegean Islands were Blacks from ancient Libya, Palestine, and Asia Minor. These Blacks founded Athens, Thebes Thera and Attica. They occupied much of the mainland and all the Aegean Islands.
These Blacks are frequently depicted in the art associated with the so-called Dark Ages (1200-600 BC). There are also fine frescos from Thera (Sanorin) Island which illustrate one of the Agean cities occupied by these Blacks during the 16th and 15th centuries BC.
This is one of the Thera Frescos. Note the busy atmosphere Associated with the Pelasgian cities during the 16th Century BC
Although these people of the Heroic age came from diverse origins, the Aryan-Greeks called them Pelasgians. According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians. The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes. The term Pelasgian was applied to all these pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece. R.J. Hopper, in
The Early Greeks, noted that "indeed the classical Greeks believed in the separate existence of diverse ethnic elements side by side, and thought particularly of the Pelasgians in this connection".
According to tradition, the Pelasgians inhabited Arcadia and many Aegean Islands. These Blacks took their own writing to Greece which was later used by the Aryan-Greeks. According to Herodotus quadrigas or four-horse chariots were introduced to Greeks by the Libyans .
The Aryan-Greeks adopted the language of the Pelasgians and Egyptians. The linguistic evidence shows that there was a differentiation of Greece into East Greek and West Greek. The Black Greeks spoke East Greek (Achaioi or Achaean). West Greek was spoken by the Dorian or Aryan Greeks. The earliest Aryan tribe called Ionians spoke a dialect of East Greek called Aeolic.
Many classical scholars teach the world that the Greek language is entirely Indo-European. This view of Greek is wrong.
Dr. Anna Morpurgo Davies, has made it clear that "less than 40% of the words which have an Indo-European etymology". According to Dr. Davies, 52.2 % of the Greek terms in Chantraine's Dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque (1968) have an unknown etymology. The mixed nature of the Greek language results from the early settlement of the Aegean by Blacks from Africa.
Some of these words are of African origin. Robert K.G. Temple, in The Sirius Mystery, shows that many of the most common words of the Greek vocabulary are of Egyptian origin. Diop (1991) has also discussed the Egyptian origin for many Greek terms.
The Xanthos or Palasgians of Thera
The Greeks often called the first inhabitants of Greece Pelasgians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the great ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes which included the Achaeans , Kadmeans, and Leleges.
The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them.
Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as "venerable ancestors". He said that the first Athenians "they were Pelasgi, the later possessing the country now designed Hellas". The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe. Pausanias, noted that "The Arcadians make mention of Pelasgus as the first person who existed in their country. From this king the whole region took the name Pilasgia". Hopper noted that the Pelasgians founded Attica.
The Black immigrants from Canaan were also settled in the Aegean at Argolis. They called themselves the "Sons of Abas". Many of the Melampodes later took part of Argolis away from the Canaanites.
The earliest Greek alphabet was made by the Pelasgians, it was lost and later reintroduced by Kadmus to Boeotia. Another Pelasgian, Evander of Arcadia introduced writing to the Italians. This script was used to make the first fifteen characters of the Latin script according to Pliny and Plutarch. Pelasgians from Thera Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The pelasgians left us plenty of art. As noted in the Greek literature the Pelasgians came from Saharan Africa. In Saharan Africa they made Tri-angular figures to represent themselves.
These pelasgians were already familiar with the chariot before they settled Africa.
When the Pelasgians came to the Anatolian region they were familiar with all aspects of the arts.
The Pelasgians left us plenty of vases which give us insight into their culture.
They show us that the pelagians had chariots and a well trained army.
In addition to making vases the Pelasgians also made Kouros statues.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Pliny says that one of the Aegean scripts was created by an Egyptian named Menos. An Egyptian creation of one of the early Greek alphabets is not out of the question because the early Predynastic Egyptians used the Proto-Saharan script as did the founders of the 12th Dynasty. Moreover, the Tiles of Rameses II, published by F. Hitching, in The Mysterious World, are analogous to the early Greek characters.
The Pelasgians also had writing and kings. On this vase we see a funeral procession.
On this part of the vase we see a swastika and a number of painted signs that look like our 'M'. The Swastika is read Kaka "deliverance, protection and safe keeping', the 'M' sign reads to rain, to fall, pour down. These signs should be read as follows: Rain down safe-keeping for [deceased]".
There is a Pelasgian text over 3500 years old.
As you can see the Pelasgians have left of text. I discuss these inscriptions web page Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Clyde, this argument is the same as whether or not North Africans were Black. It is at once ridiculous: serving only to demonstrate the White mans delusion and capacity for lying.
Step back and consider the situation:
In his European Blacks turned White, Albino hiding myth, the White man ADMITS that ancient Europeans were Black.
But yet at the same time, he makes a big fuss when he finds Black remains. That tells you that you are dealing with a liar!
Note this quote about Ivory Bangle Lady: "a glamorous mixed-race woman, in touch with Africa, Christianity, Rome and Yorkshire."
Why is she said to be unique, and why is she necessarily mixed-race? It's as if Whites didn't know EXACTLY what ancient Britain and it's people looked like.
Come to think of it - THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY!
WHICH IS PURE WHITE MAN LIE, DESIGNED TO ALLOW FOR THEIR BOGUS AND RACIST HISTORY!
The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (56-118 A.D.)
Tacitus: Germany Book 1 [1]
10. The geography and inhabitants of Britain, already described by many writers, I will speak of, not that my research and ability may be compared with theirs, but because the country was then for the first time thoroughly subdued. And so matters, which as being still not accurately known my predecessors embellished with their imagination, shall now be related on the evidence of facts.
11. Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is, as usual among barbarians, little known. Their physical characteristics are various, and from these conclusions may be drawn.
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.
The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts. Those who are nearest to the Gauls are also like them, either from the permanent influence of original descent, or, because in countries which run out so far to meet each other, climate has produced similar physical qualities.
I read that as saying that except for Caledonia, the Brits of Roman Britain were Black people.
This is consistent with later British history, when a new wave of Germans come in, take over, and institute ethnic cleansing.
But yet these lying Bastards want to claim that Blacks in Britain were an unusual thing.
Albino = Degenerate liar!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Why do you think most people refuse to accept the fact that ethnic cleansing is responsible for the disappearence of Blacks in Asia and Europe?
.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^Clyde beware of this Mike111 character,
he's using the white man as a front to identify as original European -not as an extention of Africa but as a way of denying his Africaness. Don't fall for this. He's not an Afrocentric.
He's a black Eurocentric like Egmond
There's no African root there
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
BBC story English and Welsh are races apart. Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.
The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century. Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English
It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side. And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.
Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical. But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.
The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers. They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.
They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands. The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different. The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.
Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.
It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons. In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France. It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale. "It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said. Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.
Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite. But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England. It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.
Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Why do you think most people refuse to accept the fact that ethnic cleansing is responsible for the disappearence of Blacks in Asia and Europe? .
That is one of the simpler questions.
Blacks are ignorant, their minds completely Discombobulated from birth, by a constant barrage of the White mans lies and bullsh1t.
Whites find great comfort in their mythical history and lies, it takes their minds off the reality of their Albinism.
Lioness, is there anything that you would like to add - you know, something from the Horses mouth?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Why do you think most people refuse to accept the fact that ethnic cleansing is responsible for the disappearence of Blacks in Asia and Europe? .
That is one of the simpler questions.
Blacks are ignorant, their minds completely Discombobulated from birth, by a constant barrage of the White mans lies and bullsh1t.
Whites find great comfort in their mythical history and lies, it takes their minds off the reality of their Albinism.
Lioness, is there anything that you would like to add - you know, something from the Horses mouth?
I'd like to add it isn't a fact, there isn't evidence for people still living in Europe at the much later time that Central Asians came in, that's all there is. The Grimaldi for instance, consists of two skeletons. No evidence of an ongoing settlement. Did the migrate out of area? Did they starve to death? The facts are unknown
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
I'd like to add it isn't a fact, there isn't evidence for people still living in Europe at the much later time that Central Asians came in, that's all there is. The Grimaldi for instance, consists of two skeletons. No evidence of an ongoing settlement. Did the migrate out of area? Did they starve to death? The facts are unknown
.
He,he: Clyde, see what I mean about "Whites find great comfort in their mythical history and lies, it takes their minds off the reality of their Albinism."
No lioness dear, that's not true. There is a wealth of evidence of Black settlement before you Albinos came in from Central Asia.
The Black mans art: 35,000 years before Mona Lisa
Altamira is the name of the Cave of Altamira, and other Paleolithic Cave Art of Northern Spain, under which are grouped 18 caves located in different regions of northern Spain. These represent the apogee of Paleolithic cave art developed in Europe between 35,000 and 11,000 D.C.
Stonehenge 3,000 B.C. Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Quote: "Whites find great comfort in their mythical history and lies, it takes their minds off the reality of their Albinism."
.
.
A Persian King; as fantasized by Whites while Masturbating ------------- A REAL Blacked-Assed Persian King.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Why do you think most people refuse to accept the fact that ethnic cleansing is responsible for the disappearence of Blacks in Asia and Europe?
.
^^How do you mean ethnically cleansed? The tropically adapted migrants (linked by several studies to sub-Saharan Africans), came to Europe bringing Neolithic advances with them. The Natufians are seen by many as key players in Neolithic advances, but could they not have blended with earlier types in Europe who themselves were tropically adapted like Africans but slowly adapting to colder climates? Who would have done this ethnic cleansing and how?
--------------------------
Keep in mind that several scholars have debunked the notion of sweeping "Aryan" invasions here and there..
FROM AN EARLIER THREAD: Aryan invasions questioned ----------------------------------------------------------------
No trace of “demographic disruption” in the North-West of the subcontinent between 4500 and 800 BCE; this negates the possibility of any massive intrusion, by so-called Indo-Aryans or other populations, during that period.
Deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.”
Haplogroup U, being common to North Indian and “Caucasoid” populations, was found in tribes of eastern India such as the Lodhas and Santals, which would not be the case if it had been introduced through Indo-Aryans. Such is also the case of the haplogroup M, another marker frequently mentioned in the early literature as evidence of an invasion: in reality, haplogroup M occurs with a high frequency, averaging about 60%, across most Indian population groups, irrespective of geographical location of habitat. Tribal populations have higher frequencies of haplogroup M than caste populations.”
- U.S. anthropologists Kenneth Kennedy, John Lukacs and Brian Hemphill.
Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ — that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
- U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.
There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.
- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.
mtDNA haplogroup “M” common to India (with a frequency of 60%), Central and Eastern Asia (40% on average), and even to American Indians; however, this frequency drops to 0.6% in Europe, which is “inconsistent with the ‘general Caucasoidness’ of Indians.” This shows, once again, that “the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene.” U haplogroup frequency 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia. “Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits.” In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought.
If one were to extend methodology used to suggest an Aryan invasion based on Y-Dna statistics to populations of Eastern and Southern India, one would be led to an exactly opposite result: “the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture) and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe.” The authors do not defend this thesis, but simply guard against “misleading interpretations” based on limited samples and faulty methodology.
The Chenchu tribe is genetically close to several castes, there is a “lack of clear distinction between Indian castes and tribes.
- Twenty authors headed by Kivisild - Archaeogenetics of Europe - 2000.
“Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the linguistically defined groups in India should be considered more ‘autochthonous’ than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent.”
- Mait Metspalu and fifteen co-authors analyzing 796 Indian and 436 Iranian mtDNAs. 2001.
Geneticist Toomas Kivisild led a study (2003) in which comparisons of the diversity of R1a1 (R-M17) haplogroup in Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Central Asian, Czech and Estonian populations. The study showed that the diversity of R1a1 in India, Pakistan, and Iran, is higher than in Czechs (40%), and Estonians[12].
Kivisild came to the conclusion that "southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup": "Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup".[12]
“Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation.”
- Kivilsid - 2003
Based on 728 samples covering 36 Indian populations, it announced in its very title how its findings revealed a “Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists,” i.e. of the Indo-Aryans, and stated its general agreement with the previous study. For instance, the authors rejected the identification of some Y-DNA genetic markers with an “Indo-European expansion,” an identification they called “convenient but incorrect ... overly simplistic.” To them, the subcontinent’s genetic landscape was formed much earlier than the dates proposed for an Indo-Aryan immigration: “The influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. ... There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Central Asia has been necessarily the recent donor and not the receptor of the R1a lineages.”
“Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus....” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”
The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time or co-habited, although more research is needed. R2 is very rare in Europe.
Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. - 2006.
“The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward.”
“The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.”
“Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions.” As a result, “it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools,” a conclusion that directly clashes with the Aryan invasion theory which purports that male European Aryans chased tribal adivasis and aboriginals down south.
Sanghamitra Sahoo, T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap. - 2006.
When Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe: “indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.”
-Lluís Quintana-Murci,Vincent Macaulay,Stephen Oppenheimer,Michael Petraglia,and their associates
“For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17(Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, associated with the male Aryan invasion theory) and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”
-Stephen Oppenheimer
A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed "no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals". Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.
In its conclusions the study proposed "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins" as well as "the origin of R1a1* ... in the Indian subcontinent".
S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe. - Sharma et al 2009
"This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide." "There is no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India."
The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. "The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society."
"Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different." The present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).
"The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, "At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India."
The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.
The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world. Thangaraj and Singh at a press conference.
"Reconstructing Indian Population History" - David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh. 2009
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Why do you think most people refuse to accept the fact that ethnic cleansing is responsible for the disappearence of Blacks in Asia and Europe?
.
^^How do you mean ethnically cleansed? The tropically adapted migrants (linked by several studies to sub-Saharan Africans), came to Europe bringing Neolithic advances with them. The Natufians are seen by many as key players in Neolithic advances, but could they not have blended with earlier types in Europe who themselves were tropically adapted like Africans but slowly adapting to colder climates? Who would have done this ethnic cleansing and how?
--------------------------
Keep in mind that several scholars have debunked the notion of sweeping "Aryan" invasions here and there..
FROM AN EARLIER THREAD: Aryan invasions questioned ----------------------------------------------------------------
No trace of “demographic disruption” in the North-West of the subcontinent between 4500 and 800 BCE; this negates the possibility of any massive intrusion, by so-called Indo-Aryans or other populations, during that period.
Deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.”
Haplogroup U, being common to North Indian and “Caucasoid” populations, was found in tribes of eastern India such as the Lodhas and Santals, which would not be the case if it had been introduced through Indo-Aryans. Such is also the case of the haplogroup M, another marker frequently mentioned in the early literature as evidence of an invasion: in reality, haplogroup M occurs with a high frequency, averaging about 60%, across most Indian population groups, irrespective of geographical location of habitat. Tribal populations have higher frequencies of haplogroup M than caste populations.”
- U.S. anthropologists Kenneth Kennedy, John Lukacs and Brian Hemphill.
Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ — that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
- U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.
There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.
- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.
mtDNA haplogroup “M” common to India (with a frequency of 60%), Central and Eastern Asia (40% on average), and even to American Indians; however, this frequency drops to 0.6% in Europe, which is “inconsistent with the ‘general Caucasoidness’ of Indians.” This shows, once again, that “the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene.” U haplogroup frequency 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia. “Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits.” In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought.
If one were to extend methodology used to suggest an Aryan invasion based on Y-Dna statistics to populations of Eastern and Southern India, one would be led to an exactly opposite result: “the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture) and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe.” The authors do not defend this thesis, but simply guard against “misleading interpretations” based on limited samples and faulty methodology.
The Chenchu tribe is genetically close to several castes, there is a “lack of clear distinction between Indian castes and tribes.
- Twenty authors headed by Kivisild - Archaeogenetics of Europe - 2000.
“Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the linguistically defined groups in India should be considered more ‘autochthonous’ than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent.”
- Mait Metspalu and fifteen co-authors analyzing 796 Indian and 436 Iranian mtDNAs. 2001.
Geneticist Toomas Kivisild led a study (2003) in which comparisons of the diversity of R1a1 (R-M17) haplogroup in Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Central Asian, Czech and Estonian populations. The study showed that the diversity of R1a1 in India, Pakistan, and Iran, is higher than in Czechs (40%), and Estonians[12].
Kivisild came to the conclusion that "southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup": "Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup".[12]
“Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation.”
- Kivilsid - 2003
Based on 728 samples covering 36 Indian populations, it announced in its very title how its findings revealed a “Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists,” i.e. of the Indo-Aryans, and stated its general agreement with the previous study. For instance, the authors rejected the identification of some Y-DNA genetic markers with an “Indo-European expansion,” an identification they called “convenient but incorrect ... overly simplistic.” To them, the subcontinent’s genetic landscape was formed much earlier than the dates proposed for an Indo-Aryan immigration: “The influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. ... There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Central Asia has been necessarily the recent donor and not the receptor of the R1a lineages.”
“Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus....” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”
The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time or co-habited, although more research is needed. R2 is very rare in Europe.
Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. - 2006.
“The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward.”
“The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.”
“Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions.” As a result, “it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools,” a conclusion that directly clashes with the Aryan invasion theory which purports that male European Aryans chased tribal adivasis and aboriginals down south.
Sanghamitra Sahoo, T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap. - 2006.
When Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe: “indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.”
-Lluís Quintana-Murci,Vincent Macaulay,Stephen Oppenheimer,Michael Petraglia,and their associates
“For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17(Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, associated with the male Aryan invasion theory) and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”
-Stephen Oppenheimer
A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed "no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals". Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.
In its conclusions the study proposed "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins" as well as "the origin of R1a1* ... in the Indian subcontinent".
S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe. - Sharma et al 2009
"This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide." "There is no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India."
The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. "The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society."
"Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different." The present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).
"The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, "At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India."
The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.
The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world. Thangaraj and Singh at a press conference.
"Reconstructing Indian Population History" - David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh. 2009
Ethnic cleansing means genocide was used to remove the original African population.
You don't know what you're talking about. The Dravidians came from Africa. There language is belongs to the Niger Congo group Africa.
This is false the study by Reich et al, Reconstructing Indian population history, Nature 461:489-494 claims that the Indian Cline divides Indians into two groups Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ANS).
The ANI are related to western Eurasians and speak Indo-Euopean languages. The ANS on the otherhand speak Dravidian languages.
This genetic data clearly divides the North and South Indians, and supports AIT; and the replacement of an original Dravidian speaking people in the north by the invading Indo-European speaking Vedic people.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Ancient Indian Populations were not homogenous
The HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium (HPASC) (Mapping Human Genetic Diversity in Asia) has done much to bring the genetic data for India in line with the archaeological, anthropological and linguistic data. Ray and Excoffer argue that coupling the archaeological data with genetic data is a powerful way to infer population migration (1).
Before this research by HPASC, researchers have noted the absence of congruency between Indian population genetics and archaeological research (2) As a result research into India population studies are not supported by historical, archaeological and linguistic evidences (3). The archeological evidence indicated that the first settlers of India were probably Negritos and Austro-Asiatic, then Dravidian speakers and finally Southeast Asians (4-5). But Geneticists maintain that the Dravidian speakers originated in India (6-7). They support this view by showing how the Indian mtDNA belonging to the M haplomacrogroup must have developed in situ in India (7).
Some researchers use Rosenberg et al. to argue that there is a low level of genetic divergence across geographically and linguistically diverse Indian populations based on their analysis solely of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers from India (8-9).
This study by HPASC contradicts Rosenberg et al and supports the view that the Indian populations are not homogenous and that Negritos were probably the first settlers of India. Using an Indian sample from India, HPASC acknowledges that the Dravidians were probably not the first population to settle India. The research of HPASC also supports an Indo-European migration into India.
The HPASC finding is supported by linguistic and archaeological evidence that indicated a Dravidian substratum in the Indo European languages and the major probability that Rosenberg et al. use of only Indo- Aryan and Dravidian speakers in the United States as a representative sample of diverse Indian populations was not an accurate example of the linguistic and geographical diversity of Indian populations because TMRCA of the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India was probably a Proto-Dravidian speaker and a high level of genetic divergence across Indian populations (11) . A shared MRCA for Dravidian and Indo-Aryan speakers , is supported by the Dravidian substratum in Indo-European languages which indicates that the speakers of these languages lived in intimate contact in North India for 1000s of years .
The finding of heterogeneity in ancient India by the HUGO Pan –Asian SNP Consortium is in conformity with the archaeological and linguistic data. This makes the research of HPASC significant and suggests future studies which will provide keen insight into the ancient human demography in India and the rest of Asia.
Reference:
1. Ray N, Excoffier L.2009. Inferring past demography using spatially explicit population genetic models. Human Biology, 81 (2-3): 141-157. 2. Tripathy V, Nirmala A, Reddy BM. 2008. Trends in Molecular Anthropological Studies in India. Int J Hum Genet, 8(1-2): 1-20. 3. Winters,C. 2008.Origin and Spread of Dravidian Speakers Int J Hum Genet, 8(4): 325-329 (2008) 4. Cordaux R, Saha N, Bentley GR, Aunger R, Sirajuddin SM, et al. (2003) Mitochondrial DNA analysis reveals diverse histories of tribal populations from India. Eur J Hum Genet 11: 253–264. 5. Kumar V, Reddy ANS, Babu JP, et al. (2007). Y-chromosome evidence suggests a common paternal heritage of Austro-Asiatic populations. BMC Evolutionary Biology, 7:47. 6. Rajkumar R, Banerjee J, Gunturi HB, Trivedi R, Kashyap VK. 2005. Phylogeny and antiquity of M macrohaplogroup inferred from complete mtDNA sequence of Indian specific lineages. BMC Evo. Bio., 5: 26. 7. Thangaraj K, Chaubey G, Singh VK, Vanniarajan A, Thanseem I, Reddy AG, Singh L. 2006. In situ origin of deep rooting lineages of mitochondrial macrogroup M in India. BMC Genome, 7: 151. 8. Rosenberg NA, Mahajan S, Gonzalez-Quevedo C, Blum MGB, Nino-Rosales L, et al.. 2006. Low Levels of Genetic Divergence across Geographically and Linguistically Diverse Populations from India. PLoS Genet, 2(12): e215 DOI: 10.1371 /journal.pgen.0020215 9. Winters C (1989). Review on Dr. Asko Parpola’s ‘The Coming of the Aryans’. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18 (2): 98-127.
10. Krishnamurti K 2001. Comparative Dravidian linguistics: Current perspectives. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 11. Winters CA 2007. High Levels of Genetic Divergence across Indian Populations. PloS Genetics. Retrieved 4/8/2008 http://www.plosgenetics
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There were two Indo-Aryan migrations into India .The first waves of Indo-Aryans arrived the Indo-Iranian borderlands when ecological conditions had improved. These Indo-Aryans began to settle areas formerly occupied by Dravidian-speaking Harappans.
As the Aryans moved southward other Dravidian-speaking groups living in isolated villages in the Punjab and Haryana, probably allowedin their towns. them to settle . The Indo-Aryans used Painted Grey Ware.
Indo-Aryan tribal groups settle in their respected urban centers and after they grew in number they turned on the Dravidians and took their town away from them. This would explain the association of BRW with PGW in the Punjab dating between 1000-1300 B.C.( Singh 1982, p.xli). It would also explain the mention of the highly developed civilization of the non-Indo-Aryan speakers in the Rg Veda.
The second and major wave of Indo-Aryans probably entered northern India around 1000-800 B.C. This would explain why almost all the dependable PGW dates cluster around 800-350 B.C.(Agrawal & Kusumgar 1974, p.132).
By the advent of the second Indo-Aryan migration the Dravidians were weakened by drought and famine and they were easily defeated and pushed out of the Gajarat. The PGW folk appears to have pushed the Dravidians into the Dekkan.
Due to the early Dravidian presence in Northern India there is a Dravidian substratum in Indo-Aryan. There are Dravidian loan words in the Rg Veda, even though Aryan recorders of this work were situated in the Punjab, which was occupied around this time by the BRW using Dravidians.
Emeneau and Burrow (1962) have found 500 Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit. The Dravidian loans in Indo-Aryan are expected to reach 750. Indo-Aryan illustrates widespread structural borrowing from Dravidian in addition to the lexical loans. For example, Kuiper (1967) has noted the increasing frequency of Dravidian type retroflex consonants in Indo-Aryan. Southward (1977)has also recorded the Dravidian structural features borrowed by the Indo-Aryans.
A new hypothesis about Indo-Aryan has been advanced by Dr. K. Loganathan (Loga). Dr. Loganathan has presented convincing evidence that Sanskrit is really a form of Tamil, which is the base of this writing system. He has also shown a close relationship between Vedic and Sumerian, by way of Tamil.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Due to early Dravidian settlement in Northern India there is a Dravidian substratum in Indo Aryan. There are Dravidian loans in the Rg Veda, even though Aryan recorders of this work were situated in the Punjab which occupied around this time by the BRW Dravidians.
There are islands of Dravidian speakers in Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan. There are over 300,000 Brahui speakers in Qualat, Hairpur and Hyderabad districts of Pakistan. There are an additional 40,000 Brahui in Iran and several thousand along the southern border of Russia and Yugoslavia. (ISDL 1983:227)
Emeneau and Burrow (1962) found 500 Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit. In addition, Indo-Aryan illustrates a widespread structural borrowing from Dravidian in addition to 700 lexical loans (Kuiper 1967; Southward 1977; Winters 1989).
Emeneau and Burrow (1962) have found 500 Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit. the number of Dravidian loans in Indo Aryan is expected to reach 750.
There are numerous examples of Indo Aryan structural borrowings from Dravidian. For example, the Bengali and Oriya plural suffix ra is analogous to the Tamil plural suffix ar. Both of these suffixes are restricted to names of intelligent beings. (Chatterji 1970:173) Oriya borrowed the gura plural suffix from the Dravidians. (Mahapatra 1983:67)
The syntax of the Indo Aryan languages is ambivalent because of the Dravidian influence on these languages. As a result, they represent both SOV and SVO traits.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Your conclusions are groundless and suggest that you have never read the Rig Veda. Firstly, the Vedas talk about wars in North India between the Vedic and non-Vedic people who lived in pura or tripura] (walled cities or forts). Thusly, Indra was called the puramdar “fort destroyer. There is nothing in the vedic literature that refers to South India.
You interpret dasa as representing “ignorance or barnarism”= dark , and then lable the South Indians as: dasa is false. It is false because South Indians (Dravidians) are not mentioned in the Vedic literature. Your identification of Dravidians as dasa is therefore an indication of your racialist ideas.
The term dasa referred to people, not spiritual matters as you alledge. In Ralph T.H. Griffth (trs) Rig Veda (1896) of Book 2 hymn X1:18 we read “Thou hast disclosed the light to light the Arya; on they left hand, O indra, sank the Dasyu. [19] May we gain wealth, subduing with thou succour and the Aryas, all our foes, the Dasyus”. This makes it clear the Arya/Vedic people were attacking the Dasa/ Dasyus to steal their wealth and legacy. The presence of Indo-Aryan speakers in the North illustrates their success.
For the cities, the term used in the Rigveda is pur, meaning a 'rampart', 'fort' or 'stronghold' ….. Indra, the Aryan god, is puramdar, 'fort destroyer'…. In brief, 'he rends forts as age consumes a garment'. Where are or were these citadels
1. Shaivite roots of Islam 5 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Oct 16, 2010 In many places of the scriptures, notably in the Rigveda (1:189:1), .... some of them lived within walled towns practised agriculture and commerce, .... In fact the names of the holiest of Muslim cities Mecca and Medina ...
Rig Veda, tr. by Ralph T.H. Griffith, [1896], at sacred-texts.com
17 The Vārṣāgiras unto thee, O Indra, the Mighty One, sing forth this laud to please thee, Ṛjrāśva with his fellows, Ambarīṣa, Surādhas, Sahadeva, Bhayamāna. 18 He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Śimyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows. The mighty Thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters. 19 May Indra evermore be our protector, and unimperilled may we win the booty. This prayer of ours may Varuṇa grant, and Mitra, and Aditi and Sindhu, Earth and Heaven. HYMN C. Indra.
5 He who is Lord of all the world that moves and breathes, who for the Brahman first before all found the Cows; Indra who cast the Dasyus down beneath his feet,—him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.
HYMN CI. Indra. HYMN CIII. Indra. 1. THAT highest Indra-power of thine is distant: that which is here sages possessed aforetime. This one is on the earth, in heaven the other, and both unite as flag with flag in battle. 2 He spread the wide earth out and firmly fixed it, smote with his thunderbolt and loosed the waters. Maghavan with his puissance struck down Ahi, rent Rauhiṇa to death and slaughtered Vyaṁsa. 3 Armed with his bolt and trusting in his prowess he wandered shattering the forts of Dāsas. Cast thy dart, knowing, Thunderer, at the Dasyu; increase the Ārya's might and glory, Indra. 4 For him who thus hath taught these human races, Maghavan, bearing a fame-worthy title, Thunderer, drawing nigh to slay the Dasyus, hath given himself the name of Son for glory. 5 See this abundant wealth that he possesses, and put your trust in Indra's hero vigour. He found the cattle, and he found the horses, he found the plants, the forests and the waters. 6 To him the truly strong, whose deeds are many, to him the strong Bull let us pour the Soma. The Hero, watching like a thief in ambush, goes parting the possessions of the godless. 7 Well didst thou do that hero deed, O Indra, in waking with thy bolt the slumbering Ahi. in thee, delighted, Dames divine rejoiced them, the flying Maruts and all Gods were joyful. 8 As thou hast smitten Śuṣṇa, Pipru, Vṛtra and Kuyava, and Śambara's forts, O Indra. This prayer of ours may Varuṇa grant, and Mitra, and Aditi and Sindhu, Earth and Heaven.
HYMN CXXX. Indra. 1. Come to us, Indra, from afar, conducting us even as a lord of heroes to the gatherings, home, like a King, his heroes' lord. We come with gifts of pleasant food, with juice poured forth, invoking thee, As sons invite a sire, that thou mayst get thee strength thee, bounteousest, to get thee strength. 2 O Indra, drink the Soma juice pressed out with stones. poured from the reservoir, as an ox drinks the spring, a very thirsty bull the spring. For the sweet draught that gladdens thee, for mightiest freshening of thy strength. Let thy Bay Horses bring thee hither as the Sun, as every day they bring the Sun. 3 He found the treasure brought from heaven that lay concealed, close-hidden, like the nestling of a bird, in rock, enclosed in never-ending rock. Best Aṅgiras, bolt-armed, he strove to win, as ’twere, the stall of kine; So Indra hath disclosed the food concealed, disclosed the doors, the food that lay concealed. 4 Grasping his thunderbolt with both hands, Indra made its edge most keen, for hurling, like a carving-knife for Ahi's slaughter made it keen. Endued with majesty and strength, O Indra, and with lordly might, Thou crashest down the trees, as when a craftsman fells, crashest them down as with an axe. 5 Thou, Indra, without effort hast let loose the floods to run their free course down, like chariots, to the sea, like chariots showing forth their strength. They, reaching hence away, have joined their strength for one eternal end, Even as the cows who poured forth every thing for man, Yea, poured forth all things for mankind. 6 Eager for riches, men have formed for thee this song, like as a skilful craftsman fashioneth a car, so have they wrought thee to their bliss; Adorning thee, O Singer, like a generous steed for deeds of might, Yea, like a steed to show his strength and win the prize, that he may bear each prize away. 7 For Pūru thou hast shattered, Indra ninety forts, for Divodāsa thy boon servant with thy bolt, O Dancer, for thy worshipper. For Atithigva he, the Strong, brought Śambara. from the mountain down, Distributing the mighty treasures with his strength, parting all treasures with his strength. 8 Indra in battles help his Āryan worshipper, he who hath hundred helps at hand in every fray, in frays that win the light of heaven. Plaguing the lawless he gave up to Manu's seed the dusky skin; Blazing, ’twere, he burns each covetous man away, he burns, the tyrannous away. 9 Waxed strong in might at dawn he tore the Sun's wheel off. Bright red, he steals away their speech, the Lord of Power, their speech he steals away from them, As thou with eager speed, O Sage, hast come from far away to help, As winning for thine own all happiness of men, winning all happiness each day. 10 Lauded with our new hymns, O vigorous in deed, save us with strengthening help, thou Shatterer of the Forts! Thou, Indra, praised by Divodāsa's clansmen, as heaven grows great with days, shalt wax in glory.
BOOK 2 HYMN XI. Indra. 1. HEAR thou my call, O Indra; be not heedless: thine may we be for thee to give us treasures; For these presented viands, seeking riches, increase thy strength like streams of water flowing. 2 Floods great and many, compassed by the Dragon, thou badest swell and settest free, O Hero. Strengthened by songs of praise thou rentest piecemeal the Dāsa, him who deemed himself immortal. 3 For, Hero, in the lauds wherein thou joyedst, in hymns of praise, O Indra, songs of Rudras, These streams in which is thy delight approach thee, even as the brilliant ones draw near to Vāyu. 4 We who add strength to thine own splendid vigour, laying within thine arms the splendid thunder— With us mayst thou, O Indra, waxen splendid, with Sūrya overcome the Dāsa races. 5 Hero, thou slewest in thy valour Ahi concealed in depths, mysterious, great enchanter, Dwelling enveloped deep within the waters, him who checked heaven and stayed the floods from flowing. 6 Indra, we laud thy great deeds wrought aforetime, we laud thine exploits later of achievement; We laud the bolt that in thine arms lies eager; we laud thy two Bay Steeds, heralds of Sūrya. 7 Indra, thy Bay Steeds showing forth their vigour have sent a loud cry out that droppeth fatness. The earth hath spread herself in all her fulness: the cloud that was about to move hath rested. 8 Down, never ceasing, hath the rain-cloud settled: bellowing, it hath wandered with the Mothers. Swelling the roar in the far distant limits, they have spread wide the blast sent forth by Indra. 9 Indra hath hurled down the magician Vṛtra who lay beleaguering the mighty river. Then both the heaven and earth trembled in terror at the strong Hero's thunder when he bellowed. 10 Loud roared the mighty Hero's bolt of thunder, when he, the Friend of man, burnt up the monster, And, having drunk his fill of flowing Soma, baffled the guileful Dānava's devices. 11 Drink thou, O Hero Indra, drink the Soma; let the joy-giving juices make thee joyful. They, filling both thy flanks, shall swell thy vigour. The juice that satisfies hath helped Indra. 12 Singers have we become with thee, O Indra: may we serve duly and prepare devotion. Seeking thy help we meditate thy praises: may we at once enjoy thy gift of riches. 13 May we be thine, such by thy help, O Indra, as swell thy vigour while they seek thy favour. Give us, thou God, the riches that we long for, most powerful, with stare of noble children. 14 Give us a friend, give us an habitation; Indra, give us the company of Maruts, And those whose minds accord with theirs, the Vāyus, who drink the first libation of the Soma. 15 Let those enjoy in whom thou art delighted. Indra, drink Soma for thy strength and gladness. Thou hast exalted us to heaven, Preserver, in battles, through the lofty hymns that praise thee. 16 Great, verily, are they, O thou Protector, who by their songs of praise have won the blessing. They who strew sacred grass to be thy dwelling, helped by thee have got them strength, O Indra. 17 Upon the great Trikadruka days, Hero, rejoicing thee, O Indra, drink the Soma. Come with Bay Steeds to drink of libation, shaking the drops from out thy beard, contented. 18 Hero, assume the might wherewith thou clavest Vṛtra piecemeal, the Dānava Aurṇavābha. Thou hast disclosed the light to light the Ārya: on thy left hand, O Indra, sank the Dasyu. 19 May we gain wealth, subduing with thy succour and with the Ārya, all our foes, the Dasyus. Our gain was that to Tṛta of our party thou gavest up Tvaṣṭar's son Viśvarūpa. 20 He cast down Arbuda what time his vigour was strengthened by libations poured by Tṛta. Indra sent forth his whirling wheel like Sūrya, and aided by the Aṅgirases rent Vala. 21 Now let that wealthy Cow of thine, O Indra, yield in return a boon to him who lauds thee. Give to thy praisers: let not fortune fail us. Loud may we speak, with brave men, in the assembly.
HYMN XX. Indra. 1. As one brings forth his car when fain for combat, so bring we power to thee—regard us, Indra— Well skilled in song, thoughtful in spirit, seeking great bliss from one like thee amid the Heroes. 2 Indra, thou art our own with thy protection, a guardian near to men who love thee truly, Active art thou, the liberal man's defender, his who draws near to thee with right devotion. 3 May Indra, called with solemn invocations. the young, the Friend, be men's auspicious keeper, One who will further with his aid the singer, the toiler, praiser, dresser of oblations. 4 With laud and song let me extol that Indra in whom of old men prospered and were mighty. May he, implored, fulfil the prayer for plenty of him who worships, of the living mortal. 5 He, Indra whom the Aṅgirases' praise delighted, strengthened their prayer and made their goings prosper. Stealing away the mornings with the sunlight, he, lauded, crushed even Aśna's ancient powers. 6 He verily, the God, the glorious Indra, hath raised him up for man, best Wonder-Worker. He, self-reliant, mighty and triumphant, brought low the dear head of the wicked Dāsa. 7 Indra the Vṛtra-slayer, Fort-destroyer, scattered the Dāsa hosts who dwelt in darkness.For men hath he created earth and waters, and ever helped the prayer of him who worships. 8 To him in might the Gods have ever yielded, to Indra in the tumult of the battle. When in his arms they laid the bolt, he slaughtered the Dasyus and cast down their forts of iron. 9 Now may that wealthy Cow of thine, O Indra, give in return a boon to him who lauds thee. Give to thy praisers: let not fortune fail us. Loud may we speak, with heroes, in assembly.
BOOK 3
HYMN XXXI. Indra. 1. WISE, teaching, following the thought of Order, the sonless gained a grandson from his daughter. Fain, as a sire, to see his child prolific, he sped to meet her with an eager spirit. 2 The Son left not his portion to the brother, he made a home to hold him who should gain, it. What time his Parents gave the Priest his being, of the good pair one acted, one promoted. 3 Agni was born trembling with tongue that flickered, so that the Red's great children should be honoured. Great is their germ, that born of them is mighty, great the Bays' Lord's approach through sacrifices. 4 Conquering bands upon the Warrior waited: they recognized great light from out the darkness. The conscious Dawns went forth to meet his coming, and the sole Master of the kine was Indra. 5 The sages freed them from their firmbuilt prison: the seven priests drove them forward with their spirit. All holy Order's pathway they discovered he, full of knowledge, shared these deeds through worship. 6 When Saramā had found the mountain's fissure, that vast and ancient place she plundered thoroughly. In the floods' van she led them forth, light-footed: she who well knew came first unto their lowing. 7 Longing for friendship came the noblest singer: the hill poured forth its treasure for the pious. The Hero with young followers fought and conquered, and straightway Aṅgiras was singing praises, 8 Peer of each noble thing, yea, all excelling, all creatures doth he know, he slayeth Śuṣṇa. Our leader, fain for war, singing from heaven, as Friend he saved his lovers from dishonour. 9 They sate them down with spirit fain for booty, making with hymns a way to life eternal. And this is still their place of frequent session, whereby they sought to gain the months through Order. 10 Drawing the milk of ancient seed prolific, they joyed as they beheld their own possession. Their shout of triumph heated earth and heaven. When the kine showed, they bade the heroes rouse them. 11 Indra drove forth the kine, that Vṛtra-slayer, while hymns of praise rose up and gifts were offered. For him the Cow, noble and far-extending, poured pleasant juices, bringing oil and sweetness. 12 They made a mansion for their Father, deftly provided him a great and glorious dwelling; With firm support parted and stayed the Parents, and, sitting, fixed him there erected, mighty. 13 What time the ample chalice had impelled him, swift waxing, vast, to pierce the earth and heaven,— Him in whom blameless songs are all united: all powers invincible belong to Indra. 14 I crave thy powers, I crave thy mighty friendship: full many a team goes to the Vṛtra-slayer. Great is the laud, we seek the Princes' favour. Be thou, O Maghavan, our guard and keeper. 15 He, having found great, splendid, rich dominion, sent life and motion to his friends and lovers. Indra who shone together with the Heroes begot the song, the fire, and Sun and Morning. 16 Vast, the House-Friend, he set the waters flowing, all-lucid, widely spread, that move together. By the wise cleansings of the meath made holy, through days, and nights they speed the swift streams onward. 17 To thee proceed the dark, the treasure-holders, both of them sanctified by Sūrya's bounty. The while thy ovely storming Friends, O Indra, fail to attain the measure of thy greatness. 18 Be Lord of joyous songs, O Vṛtra-slayer, Bull dear to all, who gives the power of living. Come unto us with thine auspicious friendship, hastening, Mighty One, with mighty succours. 19 Like Aṅgiras I honour him with worship, and renovate old song for him the Ancient. Chase thou the many godless evil creatures, and give us, Maghavan, heaven's light to help m. 20 Far forth are spread the purifying waters convey thou us across them unto safety. Save us, our Charioteer, from harm, O Indra, soon, very soon, make us win spoil of cattle. 21 His kine their Lord hath shown, e’en Vṛtra's slayer, through the black hosts he passed with red attendants. Teaching us pleasant things by holy Order, to, us hath he thrown open all his portals. 22 Call we on Maghavan, auspicious Indra, best Hero in this fight where spoil is gathered. The Strong who listens, who gives aid in battles, who slays the Vṛtras, wins and gathers riches.
HYMN XXXII. Indra 1. DRINK thou this Soma, Indra, Lord of Soma; drink thou the draught of noonday which thou Iovest. Puffing thy cheeks, impetuous, liberal Giver, here loose thy two Bay Horses and rejoice thee. 2 Quaff it pure, meal-blent, mixt with milk, O Indra; we have poured forth the Soma for thy rapture. Knit with the prayer-fulfilling band of Maruts, yea, with the Rudras, drink till thou art sated; 3 Those who gave increase to thy strength and vigour; the Maruts singing forth thy might, O Indra. Drink thou, O fair of cheek, whose hand wields thunder, with Rudras banded, at our noon libation. 4 They, even the Maruts who were there, excited with song the meath-created strength of Indra. By them impelled to act he reached the vitals Of Vṛtra, though he deemed that none might wound him. 5 Pleased, like a man, with our libation, Indra, drink, for enduring hero might, the Soma. Lord of Bays, moved by sacrifice come hither: thou with the Swift Ones stirrest floods and waters. 6 When thou didst loose the streams to run like racers in the swift contest, having smitten Vṛtra With flying weapon where he lay, O Indra, and, godless, kept the Goddesses encompassed. 7 With reverence let us worship mighty Indra, great and sublime, eternal, everyouthful, Whose greatness the dear world-halves have not measured, no, nor conceived the might of him the Holy. 8 Many are Indra's nobly wrought achievements, and none of all the Gods transgress his statutes. He beareth up this earth and heaven, and, doer of marvels, he begot the Sun and Morning. 9 Herein, O Guileless One, is thy true greatness, that soon as born thou drankest up the Soma. Days may not check the power of thee the Mighty, nor the nights, Indra, nor the months, nor autumns. 10 As soon as thou wast born in highest heaven thou drankest Soma to delight thee, Indra; And when thou hadst pervaded earth and heaven thou wast the first supporter of the singer. 11 Thou, puissant God, more mighty, slewest. Ahi showing his strength when couched around the waters. The heaven itself attained not to thy greatness when with one hip of thine the earth was shadowed. 12 Sacrifice, Indra, made thee wax so mighty, the dear oblation with the flowing Soma. O Worshipful, with worship help our worship, for worship helped thy bolt when slaying Ahi. 13 With sacrifice and wish have I brought Indra; still for new blessings may I turn him hither, Him magnified by ancient songs and praises, by lauds of later time and days yet recent. 14 I have brought forth a song when longing seized me: ere the decisive day will I laud Indra; Then may he safely bear us over trouble, as in a ship, when both sides invocate him. 15 Full is his chalice: Glory! Like a pourer I have filled up the vessel for his drinking. Presented on the right, dear Soma juices have brought us Indra, to rejoice him, hither. 16 Not the deep-flowing flood, O Much-invoked One! not hills that compass thee about restrain thee, Since here incited, for thy friends, O Indra, thou breakest e’en the firm built stall of cattle. 17 Call we on Maghavan, auspicious Indra, best Hero in this fight where spoil is gathered, The Strong who listens, who gives aid in battles, who slays the Vṛtras, wins and gathers riches.
HYMN XXXIV. Indra. 1. FORT-RENDER, Lord of Wealth, dispelling foemen, Indra with lightnings hath o’ercome the Dāsa. Impelled by prayer and waxen great in body, he hath filled earth and heaven, the Bounteous Giver. 2 I stimulate thy zeal, the Strong, the Hero decking my song of praise forth; Immortal. O Indra, thou art equally the Leader of heavenly hosts and human generations. 3 Leading, his band Indra encompassed Vṛtra; weak grew the wily leader of enchanters. He who burns fierce in forests slaughtered Vyaṁsa, and made the Milch-kine of the nights apparent. 4 Indra, light-winner, days' Creator, conquered, victorious, hostile bands with those who loved him. For man the days' bright ensign he illumined, and found the light for his joy and gladness. 5 Forward to fiercely falling blows pressed Indra, herolike doing many hero exploits. These holy songs he taught the bard who gaised him, and widely spread these Dawns' resplendent colour. 6 They laud the mighty acts of him the Mighty, the many glorious deeds performed by Indra. He in his strength, with all-surpassing prowess, through wondrous arts crushed the malignant Dasyus. 7 Lord of the brave, Indra who rules the people gave freedom to the Gods by might and battle. Wise singers glorify with chanted praises these his achievements in Vivasvān's dwelling. 8 Excellent, Conqueror, the victory-giver, the winner of the light and Godlike Waters, He who hath won this broad earth and this heaven, -in Indra they rejoice who love devotions. 9 He gained possession of the Sun and Horses, Indra obtained the Cow who feedeth many. Treasure of gold he won; he smote the Dasyus, and gave protection to the Āryan colour. 10 He took the plants and days for his possession; he gained the forest trees and air's mid-region. Vala he cleft, and chased away opponents: thus was he tamer of the overweening. 11 Call we on Maghavan, auspicious Indra, best Hero in the fight where spoil is gathered, The Strong, who listens, who gives aid in battles, who slays the Vṛtras, wins and gathers treasures.
HYMN XXXV Indra. 1. MOUNT the Bay Horses to thy chariot harnessed, and come to us like Vāyu with his coursers. Thou, hastening to us, shalt drink the Soma. Hail, Indra. We have poured it for thy rapture. 2 For him, the God who is invoked by many, the two swift Bay Steeds to the pole I harness, That they in fleet course may bring Indra hither, e’en to this sacrifice arranged completely. 3 Bring the strong Steeds who drink the warm libation, and, Bull of Godlike nature, be thou gracious. Let thy Steeds eat; set free thy Tawny Horses, and roasted grain like this consume thou daily. 4 Those who are yoked by prayer I harness, fleet friendly Bays who take their joy together. Mounting thy firm and easy car, O Indra, wise and all-knowing come thou to the Soma. 5 No other worshippers must stay beside them thy Bays, thy vigorous and smooth-backed Coursers. Pass by them all and hasten onward hither: with Soma pressed we will prepare to feast thee. 6 Thine is this Soma: hasten to approach it. Drink thou thereof, benevolent, and cease not. Sit on the sacred grass at this our worship, and take these drops into thy belly, Indra. 7 The grass is strewn for thee, pressed is the Soma; the grain is ready for thy Bays to feed on. To thee who lovest them, the very mighty, strong, girt by Maruts, are these gifts presented. 8 This the sweet draught, with cows, the men, the mountains, the waters, Indra, have for thee made ready. Come, drink thereof, Sublime One, friendly-minded, foreseeing, knowing well the ways thou goest. 9 The Maruts, they with whom thou sharedst Soma, Indra, who made thee strong and were thine army,— With these accordant, eagerly desirous drink thou this Soma with the tongue of Agni. 10 Drink, Indra, of the juice by thine own nature, or by the tongue of Agni, O thou Holy. Accept the sacrificial gift, O Śakra, from the Adhvaryu's hand or from the Hotar's. 11 Call we on Maghavan, auspicious Indra, best Hero in the fight where spoil is gathered, The Strong, who listens, who.gives aid in battles, who slays the Vṛtras, wins and gathers riches.
HYMN XXXIX. Indra. 1. To Indra from the heart the hymn proceedeth, to him the Lord, recited, built with praises; The wakening song sung forth in holy synod: that which is born for thee, O Indra, notice. 2 Born from the heaven e’en in the days aforetime, wakening, sting aloud in holy synod, Auspicious, clad in white and shining raiment, this is the ancient hymn of our forefathers. 3 The Mother of the Twins hath borne Twin Children: my tongue's tip raised itself and rested silent. Killing the darkness at the light's foundation, the Couple newly born attain their beauty. 4 Not one is found among them, none of mortals, to blame our sires who fought to win the cattle. Their strengthener was Indra the Majestic he spread their stalls of kine the Wonder-Worker. 5 Where as a Friend with friendly men, Navagvas, with heroes, on his knees he sought the cattle. There, verily with ten Daśagvas Indra found the Sun lying hidden in the darkness. 6 Indra found meath collected in the milch-cow, by foot and hoof, in the cow's place of pasture. That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he held in his right hand, the rich rewarder. 7 He took the light, discerning it from darkness: may we be far removed from all misfortune. These songs, O Soma-drinker, cheered by Soma, Indra, accept from thy most zealous poet. 8 Let there be light through both the worlds for worship: may we be far from most overwhelming evil. Great woe comes even from the hostile mortal, piled up; but good at rescue are the Vasus. 9 Call we on Maghavan, auspicious Indra, best Hero in the fight where spoil is gathered, The Strong, who listens, who gives aid in battles, who slays the Vṛtras, wins and gathers riches.
HYMN XLIX. Indra. 1. GREAT Indra will I laud, in whom all people who drink the Soma have attained their longing; Whom, passing wise, Gods, Heaven and Earth, engendered, formed by a Master's hand, to crush the Vṛtras. 2 Whom, most heroic, borne by Tawny Coursers, verily none subdueth in the battle; Who, reaching far, most vigorous, hath shortened the Dasyu's life with Warriors bold of spirit. 3 Victor in fight, swift mover like a warhorse, pervading both worlds, rainer down of blessings, To he invoked in war like Bhaga, Father, as ’twere, of hymns, fair, prompt to hear, strength-giver. 4 Supporting heaven, the high back of the region, his car is Vāyu with his team of Vasus. Illumining the nights, the Sun's creator, like Dhiṣaṇā he deals forth strength and riches. 5 Call we on Maghavan, auspicious Indra, best Hero in the fight where spoil is gathered; The Strong, who listens, who gives aid in battles, who slays the Vṛtras, wins and gathers treasure.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
I am beginning to believe that after the Hittites defeated the Hatti and Kaska and other peoples belonging to the Hurrian and Mitanni kingdoms, these people were uprooted and forced into Iran. The lost of Anatolia to the Hittites, probably forced these people to become nomads.
In Iran they probably formed a significant portion of the Proto-Arya population. Here they may have met Indo-Iranian speaking people,who may have practiced a hunter-gatherer existence, that adopted aspects of their culture , especially the religion and use of Mitanni religious terms and chariot culture. Joining forces with the Mitannian-Hurrian exiles they probably attacked Dravidian and Austronesian speaking people who probably lived in walled cities. The Austronesian and Dravidian people probably came in intimate contact during the Xia and Shang periods of China.
I have to reject the Afghanistan origin for the Indo-Iranian speaking people because the cultures there in ancient times show no affinity to Indo-European civilization. Given the Austronesian and Dravidian elements in Sanskrit and etc., I would have to date the expansion of the Indo-Aryan people sometime after 800 BC, across Iran, India down into Afghanistan, since the Austronesia people probably did not begin to enter India until after the fall of the Anyang Shang Dynasty sometime after 1000 BC. This would explain why you declare that "the Vedic and Avestan mantras are not carbon copies of each other", they may have had a similar genesis, but they were nativised by different groups of Indic and Iranian speakers after the settlement of nomadic Hurrian and Mitanni people in Iran.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
What language did the Arya speak. I believe they spoke Hurrian, Mitanni and some petty Iranian language.
I believe that after the Hittites defeated the Hatti and Kaska and other peoples belonging to the Hurrian and Mitanni kingdoms, these people were uprooted and forced into Iran. The lost of Anatolia to the Hittites, probably forced these people to become nomads.
In Iran they probably formed a significant portion of the Proto-Arya population. Here they may have met Indo-Iranian speaking people,who may have practiced a hunter-gatherer existence, that adopted aspects of their culture , especially the religion and use of Mitanni religious terms and chariot culture.
Joining forces with the Mitannian-Hurrian exiles they probably attacked Dravidian and Austronesian speaking people who probably lived in walled cities. The Austronesian and Dravidian people probably came in intimate contact during the Xia and Shang periods of China.
I have to reject the Afghanistan origin for the Indo-Iranian speaking people because the cultures there in ancient times show no affinity to Indo-European civilization. Given the Austronesian and Dravidian elements in Sanskrit and etc., I would have to date the expansion of the Indo-Aryan people sometime after 800 BC, across Iran, India down into Afghanistan, since the Austronesia people probably did not begin to enter India until after the fall of the Anyang Shang Dynasty sometime after 1000 BC. This would explain why you declare that "the Vedic and Avestan mantras are not carbon copies of each other", they may have had a similar genesis, but they were nativised by different groups of Indic and Iranian speakers after the settlement of nomadic Hurrian and Mitanni people in Iran.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The ancient literary language spoken on the banks of Rivers Sarasvati and Sindhu was Dravidian. Due to the large number of Dravidians living in India alongside the Aramaic, Munda and Indo-Aryan speakers Sanskrit was invented as a link language and lingua franca to unite the Indians. At the base of Sanskrit was the Dravidian languages. Dr. Kalyanaraman has made it clear that he is skeptical of the integrity of the I-E linguistic discipline. I agree with Kalyanaraman. The affinities between Sanskrit and Greek/Latin result from 1) the early contact between the Indic languages when the Greeks ruled India-Pakistan; and 2) the Latin popularity and spread of Greek civilization and culture when the Romans ruled the world.
At the end of the 18th century Sir William Jones, suggested that Sanskrit was closely related to Western languages that could not be attributed purely to chance. Jones maintained that these Indic and European languages must be descended from a common ancestor. It was from this observation that Indo-European linguistics was born. In Sir Jones time we knew little about the history of the Greeks in India. Today we know much more about the historical evidence relating to Greek influence in India. The textual material make it clear that when Sanskrit was codified Greek was spoken by many Indians and due to bilingualism, Greek elements probably used in the Prakrits and everyday speech became of the link language: Sanskrit.
The Dravidians formerly were the major linguistic group in Central Asia and India-Pakistan. Many north Dravidian people are presently found in Central Asia. The cattle rearing Brahuis may represent descendants of the Dravidian pastoral element that roamed the steppes in ancient times. North Dravidian speaking Brahuis are found in Afghan Baluchistan , Persian Sistan and the Marwoasis in Soviet Turkmenistan (Elfenbein 1987: 229).
There are islands of Dravidian speakers in Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan. There are over 300,000 Brahui speakers in Qualat, Hairpur and Hyderabad districts of Pakistan. Other Dravidian speakers are found in Iran, Russia and Yugoslavia (ISDL 1983: 227). The distribution of Northern Dravidian speaking groups outlined above, corresponds to the former spread of Harappan cultures in the 3rd millennium B.C., in Central Asia.
Due to early the Dravidian settlement of Central Asia the Dravidian speakers influenced many languages. There is a Dravidian substratum in Indo-Aryan. There are Dravidian loans Rg Veda, eventhough Aryan recorders of this work were situated in the Punjab, which was occupied around this time by Dravidians using BRW. Emeneau and Burrow (1962) found 500 Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit. In addition, Indo-Aryan illustrates a widespread structural borrowing from Dravidian in addition to 700 lexical loans (Kuiper 1967; Southward 1977; Winters 1989).
It is therefore not surprising that Dravidian languages lie at the base of the languages spoken in Indo-Aryan languages spoken in Pakistan and India. It is therefore not surprising that the Dravidian languages great influenced Sanskrit. Many researchers reject the idea that Sanskrit was greatly influenced by the Dravidian languages. They dispute this theory because of the Greek relationship to Sanskrit. Although researchers have used the relationship between Greek and Sanskrit in support of an Indo-European linguistic family, it is clear that the relationship between Sanskrit and Greek result from the long influence in India-Pakistan of the Greeks .
The Greco-Bactrians were probably bilingual . Bilingualism can be induced through two methods 1) state coercion or 2) its ability to offer advantages to two or more populations in contact. The latter method of change usually accounts for bilingualism--people use the new language to obtain better access to status, security, ritual or goods. The Greek emphasis on direct methods of political control in Bactria forced many non-Greeks to become bilingual due to its advantage as a tool for greater upward mobility during Greek rule. The Greek colonization of Bactria, made the Greek language a link language between the non-IE languages spoken in Central Asia three thousand years ago, after many generations of bilingualism led to an interlanguage phenomena that became a permanent feature of the literate speech community in this region. We can define the institutionalization of an interlanguage as language recombination, i.e., the mixing of the vocabulary and structures of the substratum language (Dravidian) and the superstratum language (Greek and later Slavic speaking Saka people) to form a new mixed language: Tocharian.
The Greek culture was transplanted in Bactria by the army of Alexander the Great. It can be assumed that due to direct rule, the Greek language was well established in this region by the cultural matrix accompanying it since possession of Greek culture and language played a major role in the upward mobility of "colonial subjects" in Bactria.
Eteo-Tocharian is a good example of the influence of Greeks in Central Asia. Eteo-Tocharian was written in a modified Greek alphabet (Maricq 1958:398). This script is a manifestation of the Greek influence in Bactria, even after the Kushana subjugation of this area. This latter point is evident in the Grand Inscription of Kaniska (Maricq 1958).
An intruding community like the Greeks in Central Asia did not have to outnumber the colonized people in Bactria to impact on the language of the original Bactrians. The mere fact that the new speech community, although ethnically different were now recognized as socially superior to the subject peoples of Bactria, it was useful for Bactrians to become bilingual so they would be able to function both within their own culture and the new culture introduced by the conquering Greeks. This hypothesis is congruent with Ehret's (1988:569) view that people make cultural choices on the basis of what appears to be most advantageous to the lives they live.
The Greeks made a conscious effort to affect the underpinnings of the native Bactrian's material world and their relations with their spirits or gods. For example, Greek influence is evident in the Gandharan Buddhist style sculptures. This art style illustrates Hellenistic influences in the modeling of the hair and facial features. The relationship between Greek and Indic languages results from the early contact of the speakers of these languages in Northwest India and beyond during a period in which the Greeks were a major power in Central Asia.
The Greeks also ruled Pakistan and India. The Indian rule of India is discussed in the following books: F.L. Holt, Thundering Zeus ;W.W. Tarn, The Greeks of Bastria and India ; A.K. Narain, The Indo-Greeks ; and H. Kulke & D. Rothermund, History of India . Many Pakistanis recognize Dravidian as the root language for many languages spoken in Pakistan (Rahman.2004). They accept the fact that a Dravidian language was probably spoken by the people who formerly lived in the Indus Valley. It was in Pakistan that the Greek language was probably corporated into Sanskrit. Many of the rules for Sanskrit were codified by Panini, who was born in Salatura, in Northwest Pakistan. Panini's grammar contains 4000 rules.
When Panini wrote his grammar of Sanskrit, it was spoken by the elites in the area. Greek was also popular when Panini wrote the Sanskrit grammar. The Greeks were called Yunani or Yavana. Thus we learn from Agrawala (1953) that the Yavanani lipi (edict) was well known in Gandahara, and even Panini mentions the Yavana in his grammar
. The term Yauna meant Ionian (Woodcock, 1966).The history of Greeks in the area is quite interesting. When Alexander entered the HinduKush region in 327 B.C., Greek settlements were already in the area. By 180 BC, as the Mauryas fell into decline,the Greek Kings of Bactria took control of Western Punjab and Gandhara up to the Indus River. Under King Menander (d.130 B.C.) the Greeks had their capital at Taxila. The center of Greek culture in the area was Charsadda near Peshawar (Woodcock,1966).
Many Greek terms were probably already incorporated in the Prakrits of Northern India-Pakistan and Central Asia. Here the Greeks minted their coins with Kharoshthi, Brahmi and Greek inscriptions. Greek was used for commercial purposes and served as a patrician lingua franca of the Kabul valley and of Gandhara. During the rule of Pushyamitra many Greeks settled in India. Due to the long history of Greeks in India, Ashoka had some of his edicts written in Greek and Aramaic bilinguals. In 44 A.D., Appolonius of Tyana when he visited Taxila found that merchants and kings learned Greek "as a matter of course" (Rahman, 2004; Woodcock,1966).
Given the popularity of Greek in the region it is not surprising that Sanskrit would show such a strong relationship to the Indic languages, since it was spoken throughout the area of a couple of hundred years. Commenting on the Greek rulers of India, Kulke and Rothermund (1998), said that "They are referred to as `Indo-Greeks', and there were about forty such kings and rulers who controlled large areas of northwestern India and Afghanistan….They appear as Yavanas in stray references in Indian literature, and there are few but important references in European sources. In these distant outposts, the representatives of the Hellenic policy survived the defeat of their Western compatriots at the hands of the Parthians for more than a century" (p.70). The greatest of the Indo-Greek rulers was Menander, who is mentioned in the famous Milindapanho text. The Shakas adopted many elements of Indo-Greek culture which they perpetuated in India for over 100 years (Rahman, 2004).
The large corpus of non-IE words in Tocharian discussed by Blazek (1988) and Winters (1988a, 1990, 1991) is congruent with the hypothesis that IE elements in Tocharian, especially Greek (and Slavic) were loanwords into Tocharian after the Greek conquest of Bactria. This borrowing pattern is consistent with the spread of the Greek language into Bactria by a small politically dominant minority of Greek settlers into a far larger and previously long-established non-IE speaking majority population.
It is impossible to argue for a genetic relationship between Vedic and Greek languages based on the fact that speakers of these languages formerly lived in intimate contact in historical times. Secondly, we know the Dravidians were in Greece before the Indo-Europeans enter the country. These non-I-E speakers were called Pelasgians. As a result, Anna Morpurgo Davies, The linguistic evidence:Is there any?, in Gerald Cadogan, The End of the early Bronze Age in the Agean (pp.93-123), says that only 40% of Greek is of Indo-European etymology (p.105). Since only 40% of the Greek terms are of I-E origin, many of the Greek terms that agree with the Indic languages may be from the 60% of the Greek lexical items that came from non-I-E speakers which as noted by Lahovary in Dravidian origins and the West, were people who spoke either Dravidian languages, or other languages from Africa, genetically related to the Dravidian group.
In conclusion, as a result of the Greek influence in Bactria and India-Pakistan , Indians and Bactrians had to acquire "Greek Culture" to enhance their position and opportunity in North India and Bactria during Greek rule. Greek rule placed prestige on status elements introduced into the region by the Greeks, especially the Greek language. Status acquired by Bactrians and Indian-Pakistanis was thus centered around acquisition of Greek language and Greek culture. This supported by the evidence that Indian elites used Greek in business and government (Rahman, 2004). This would have inturn added pressure on the Bactrians to incorporate Greek terms into a Bactrian lingua franca (i.e., Tocharian).
Given the fact that Greek administrators in Bactria and Northern India-Pakistan ,refused to fully integrate Bactrians and Indians into the ruling elite, unless they were "well versed in Greek culture and language) led to subsequent generations of native Bactrians and Indian-Pakistanis to progressively incorporate more Greek terms into their native language. This would explain why Tocharian has many features that relate to certain IE etymologies and Panini's Sanskrit grammar, present many terms that are associated with the Greeks, but illustrates little affinity to Indo-Iranian languages which are geographically and temporally closer to Tocharian. Some researchers might dispute the influence of the Greek language on Sanskrit because Panini's grammar was suppose to have been written around 400 B.C. This date for the grammar might be too early, because Rahman (2004) and Agrawala (1953) maintains that Greek was spoken in Gandahara in Panini's time.
The influence of colonial Greeks in Central Asia would explain why the most important evidence of an I-E relationship with Sanskrit and Tocharian relations within the IE family are the Greek cognates (Mallory 1989).
The "elite dominance model" hypothesis would have two basic consequences in relation to Tocharian linguistics. First, it would account for the correspondence in grammar (especially agglutination) and vocabulary between Dravidian and Tocharian on the one hand, and Tocharian and Indo-European on the other. Secondly, the settlement of the Saka in Bactria after the Greeks, would explain the great topological similarity between Tocharian and Balto-Slavic. The evidence of Saka and Greek conquest of Bactria/ Central Asia confirms the Sherratt (1988) hypothesis that Tocharian may be a trade language, and offers a plausible solution to the "Tocharian Problem".
References:
Agrawala, V.S. (1953). India as known to Panini: A study of the cultural material in the Ashtadhyayi. Lucknow: University of Lucknow.
Elfenbein, J. 1987. A periplus of the Brahui Problem. Studia Iranica 16: 215-233.
Emeneau, M. and T. Burrow. 1962. Dravidian Borrowing from Indo Aryan. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Holt,F.L. (1999). Thundering Zeus. Los Angeles: University of California Press.
ISDL. 1983. Report on the Dravidian Languages. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 12(1): 227.
Kulke, H. & Rothermund, D. (1998). History of India . New York: Routledge.
Mallory, J.P. In Search of the Indo-Europeans. London: Thames and Hudson.
Maricq, A. 1958. La Grande inscription de Kaniska et L' eteo- Tokharien l'ancienne langue de la Bactriane.Journal Asiatique 246: 345-439. Narain, A.K. (1957). The Indo-Greeks . Oxford: Clarendon Press.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Why can't we come togther to create something worthwhile. Why are we so focussed on silly ish like stabbing each other in the back or how big our phallus is? You can have the longest largest hardest phallus in the world...but what does it matter when u can't be a man on your own planet?
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Dagda, his people's "Good God."
painstakingly researched by Marc.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
