Originally posted by alTakruri:
Welcome to EgyptSearch and multi-disciplinary reseach.
quote:What is an Arab?
The reality is that Arabs have had an impact on the Sahel and this has changed a lot of the cultural identities in this region.
quote:Hi Doug. Just go to the Google language site and type in the web page. Google will give you a translation.
Originally posted by Doug M:
Unfortunately the page is in Arabic and I cannot follow what you are saying. I think it is understandable that among many of the populations that currently populate the Sahara and Sahel there are some with more Arabic identity than others. Lumping all of these people together as "Berbers" simply does not reflect reality. But again, if you know anything about Arabic identity you would also know that Arabic identity is not a true determination of ancestry. Hence, the Sudanese "Arabs" are more simply Africans than Arab. So how people identify themselves culturally does not necessarily reflect their origins physically.
So it makes sense that some of these people would identify as Arabs, like some do in Mauritania and elsewhere, while others don't. It isn't really strange to me at all. The reality is that Arabs have had an impact on the Sahel and this has changed a lot of the cultural identities in this region. And there are indeed those who identify and are truly Arab in this region and have adopted the traditions of Africans as well.
Now, all of that said, I think the contradiction in all of this is obvious. If these "Arabs" do not feel they are Berbers, then how can they claim to be Tuaregs? It is possible that some elements of these Tuaregs are Arabs and now are using the Tuareg rebellion as a means to push their agenda. But I am sure that this is not all Tuaregs and that most probably identify as African or Berber versus Arab.
quote:Provide proof that there was "an arab conquest".
long time before the arab conquest
quote:Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
The Arab or arabized nomads are not considered as berbers, like as the case of the western saharan people.
But it is about those who speak touareg languages (tamasheq....).
They claim (you have to understand this) that they are the pre-islamic arabs who migrated from arabia to north africa. Therefor, their tamashek language and their script (tifinagh) has arabic roots. thus, with other word, they are the old arabs who occupied North africa in preislamic times, long time before the arab conquest.
quote:Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Egypt for one.
Originally posted by argyle104:
Mazigh wrote:
quote:Provide proof that there was "an arab conquest".
long time before the arab conquest
What countries in Africa did this "arab conquest" take place?
quote:It is no wonder the Tuareg don't want to be considered related to other North African Berbers, because N. AFrican Berber nationalists (who have little true Berber blood0 don't want to recognize where the early Berbers came from or that the name Berber was first used for the Berr ibn Botr or Badran Dawasir(Botr) and Bahran (Berane) who lived on both sides of the Eritrean Sea settled in Somalia with other tribes of Banu Kenanah (Canaan) such as the ancient Banu Masikha (Mazike) of the Yemenite clans of Azd. Berbers and Arabians were one Afro-Asiatic people extending from the Gulf and Mesopotamia and colonizing the Maghreb in ancient times beginning long before the time of Solomon. Archeology, Tuareg tomb types and the so-called "Phoenician" elements in the Garamantian (Teda/Tedamensii) remnant locales are probably proof of this.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
The Arab or arabized nomads are not considered as berbers, like as the case of the western saharan people.
But it is about those who speak touareg languages (tamasheq....).
They claim (you have to understand this) that they are the pre-islamic arabs who migrated from arabia to north africa. Therefor, their tamashek language and their script (tifinagh) has arabic roots. thus, with other word, they are the old arabs who occupied North africa in preislamic times, long time before the arab conquest.
quote:And why did the Arab historians of the past "claim" that the Tuareg are Arabs???
Originally posted by Mazigh:
They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
quote:Or alternatively, based on weight of evidence, it is used by some to facilitate Arab imperialism via bogus Arab nationalism, which is today seen as a "has been".
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This is a common line used to cut Arabs off from their Arab roots.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
quote:It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
I hope no one buys it anymore.
quote:While you may assume that for Libyan-based Tamasheq, it is hard to argue the same for western African-based Tamasheq.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
quote:Explain. Test my understanding.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Or alternatively, based on weight of evidence, it is used by some to facilitate Arab imperialism via bogus Arab nationalism, which is today seen as a "has been".
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This is a common line used to cut Arabs off from their Arab roots.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
quote:It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
I hope no one buys it anymore.
quote:As example, the arab historian Ibn Hazm said because they're liars.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:And why did the Arab historians of the past "claim" that the Tuareg are Arabs???
Originally posted by Mazigh:
They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
quote:So the historians of the past are liars and you are the upholder of truth, right?
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:As example, the arab historian Ibn Hazm said because they're liars.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:And why did the Arab historians of the past "claim" that the Tuareg are Arabs???
Originally posted by Mazigh:
They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
because they simply were not historians in modern sense, they were narrating everything and made no dinstinction between myth, reality, fact en fiction...., so it is naief to ask you what are their sources?! The lignuistic, the archeology, the genetica, anthropology.....?
quote:But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
awlaad berry,
sorry, but you missed the point. I said that Ibn Hazm (arab historian) stated there is no Berber origin in yem, only in the lies and the fictions of the yemenitic hisotorians:
""قال قوم: إنهم من بقايا ولد حام بن بنوح -عليه السلام- وادعت طوائف منهم إلى اليمن، إلى حمير، وبعضهم إلى بر بن قيس عيلان. وهذا باطل، لا شك فيه. وما علم النسابون لقيس عيلان ابناً اسمه بر أصلاً. ولا كان لحمير طريق إلى بلاد البربر، إلا في تكاذيب مؤرخي اليمن." (ابن حزم الأندلسي في جمهرة أنساب العرب)
"
http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-post_19.html
quote:There is nothing to explain. I'm simply saying that you are surprised by and emotionally-reluctant to accept the fact I brought to attention about sections of Africans, and not just elements of Tamasheq, who have become staunch followers of Islam, conjuring up legends that link them to Arabic eponymous ancestors that may ultimately relate them to sacred personalities of Islam. It is understandable that this fact eludes you, because you are an outsider, not an African.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:
I hope no one buys it anymore.quote:Explain. Test my understanding.
It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
quote:Who told you that they are just "conjured up legends"??? What gives you the authority to call them liars? What proof do you have that what they say about THEIR origin isn't true? And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:There is nothing to explain. I'm simply saying that you are surprised by and emotionally-reluctant to accept the fact I brought to attention about sections of Africans, and not just elements of Tamasheq, who have become staunch followers of Islam, conjuring up legends that link them to Arabic eponymous ancestors that may ultimately relate them to sacred personalities of Islam. It is understandable that this fact eludes you, because you are an outsider, not an African.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:
I hope no one buys it anymore.quote:Explain. Test my understanding.
It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
quote:Easy. Experience of being African, not an outsider with an emotional-vested interest in making people I know little about, into something that they are not. That gives me the authority. People have created mythical legends since times immemorial. If you call that lying, then that is what it shall be.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Who told you that they are just "conjured up legends"??? What gives you the authority to call them liars?
quote:Why, how you verify a person's origin? Genetics, of course. Plus, languages peculiar and original to these groups are not spoken by Arabs. Common sense, is what it should be.
What proof do you have that what they say about THEIR origin isn't true?
quote:Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends.
And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
quote:Sorry buddy. That's not enough, so you have NO authority.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:Easy. Experience of being African, not an outsider with an emotional-vested interest in making people I know little about, into something that they are not. That gives me the authority. People have created mythical legends since times immemorial. If you call that lying, then that is what it shall be.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Who told you that they are just "conjured up legends"??? What gives you the authority to call them liars?
quote:What "genetic proof" do you have? And language isn't proof.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:Why, how you verify a person's origin? Genetics, of course. Plus, languages peculiar and original to these groups are not spoken by Arabs. Common sense, is what it should be.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
What proof do you have that what they say about THEIR origin isn't true?
quote:Like I figured, you don't think that the Jews are "just conjuring up legends". For them there is a different rule. You believe them. But those backward people in what you call "Africa" can't know anything about their origin, so what THEY say are "just conjured up legends". But what the light-skinned civilized Jews say is "truth with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest". Everything is clear now Explorer.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
quote:You are entitled to disagree with a FACT as you see fit; that's your choice. It's harder to produce a counter-case, however. You gave me the former -- the emotional reluctance, and now I am opened to seeing the latter -- objectivity.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Sorry buddy. That's not enough, so you have NO authority.
quote:Your claim is out of the ordinary, it is the one that needs proof; which is that groups original to Africa, are not Africans after all. They are Arabs, you say. Prove it, genetically.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
What "genetic proof" do you have? And language isn't proof.
quote:Do you think the Darod clan of Somalia originated in the Arabian peninsula or that was one of those myths you were talking about?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:There is nothing to explain. I'm simply saying that you are surprised by and emotionally-reluctant to accept the fact I brought to attention about sections of Africans, and not just elements of Tamasheq, who have become staunch followers of Islam, conjuring up legends that link them to Arabic eponymous ancestors that may ultimately relate them to sacred personalities of Islam. It is understandable that this fact eludes you, because you are an outsider, not an African.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:
I hope no one buys it anymore.quote:Explain. Test my understanding.
It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
quote:You figured wrong. Read what you figured and then read what I said. Tell me there isn't a difference.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Like I figured, you don't think that the Jews are "just conjuring up legends".
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[qb]quote:Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
quote:Why are you asking me this. Did I say they originated in the Arabian peninsula? Or are you just being your usual trolling-self. Make pointless interruptions.
Originally posted by the lioness:
Do you think the Darod clan of Somalia originated in the Arabian peninsula or that was one of those myths you were talking about?
quote:I need a lot more than your usual a priori, "if it is possible". I need your evidence.
If it is possible, it seems that 1000 years or so beginning with intermarriage with the first indigenous Somali woman would have followed, each generation becoming less and less Arab/Yemeni
quote:It's not pointless and I didn't say you said it. In fact you would be likely to say that people who claim it to be true are mythologizing.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:Why are you asking me this. Did I say they originated in the Arabian peninsula? Or are you just being your usual trolling-self. Make pointless interruptions.
Originally posted by the lioness:
Do you think the Darod clan of Somalia originated in the Arabian peninsula or that was one of those myths you were talking about?
quote:It is pointless, if I did not say it. Why would I think it?
Originally posted by the lioness:
It's not pointless and I didn't say you said it.
quote:As far as I can tell, the Somalis in question are just as Somali as any other Somali, unless of course, you know something substantive about them, that I am not aware of.
In fact you would be likely to say that people who claim it to be true are mythologizing.
quote:Why would I be unaware of this?
Maybe you were unaware that members of Darod clan Somalia/Kenya/Ethiopia one of the largest clans if not the largest in Somalia, members claim that the clan goes back to the ancestry of Aqeel (uncle and protector of Muhammad) one of his five sons, Muhammad ibn Aqeel who had fled to Somlia in 9 or 10th CE, married a local woman and formed the Darod.
quote:That high horse would be you, as soon as you can give me a good reason why I should entertain your pointless questions.
This could be interpreted as an example of what you are saying, or it could be true.
now get off your high horse
quote:First, it's not my claim. It's the assertion of the very people themselves and what makes their assertion "out of the ordinary" to you? They say that they aren't original to "Africa". Why is that so hard to believe??? What do you know about the language of the Fulani? What proof do you have that it isn't related to any language in the region? What genetic proof do you have that the Fulani are not the descendants of Uqba from Arabia and Bajjo Mangu? They say that are. If you say that they aren't, the burden of proof is on YOU. What you said about the Jews is clear. I will repeat. I asked you if you believe that the Jews today who have occupied Palestine and who claim that they are Hebrews are conjuring up legends or do you believe them. Your answer was:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:You are entitled to disagree with a FACT as you see fit; that's your choice. It's harder to produce a counter-case, however. You gave me the former -- the emotional reluctance, and now I am opened to seeing the latter -- objectivity.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Sorry buddy. That's not enough, so you have NO authority.
quote:Your claim is out of the ordinary, it is the one that needs proof; which is that groups original to Africa, are not Africans after all. They are Arabs, you say. Prove it, genetically.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
What "genetic proof" do you have? And language isn't proof.
When a language is original and restricted to a group, that doesn't serve as proof? Are you ok?
quote:Let's be clear. These folks generally don't claim to be Arabs. They only cook up legends about eponymous ancestors that are supposed to have lived on the Arabian plate. There is a difference.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
First, it's not my claim. It's the assertion of the very people themselves and what makes their assertion "out of the ordinary" to you?
quote:For reasons already stated. Being familiar with the territory, genetics and language.
They say that they aren't original to "Africa". Why is that so hard to believe???
quote:1)It belongs in the Niger-Congo superphylum. 2)It is closely related to Wolof and other Atlantic western African language phylums than any other language phylum. 3)The language is unique and original to the Fula. 4) The language is not spoken by Arabs or any other outsiders.
What do you know about the language of the Fulani?
quote:Why would I do that? If you assume that it isn't related to any language in the region, it is incumbent on you to proof that, not misplace the burden onto me.
What proof do you have that it isn't related to any language in the region?
quote:Their gene pool, as supported by their traditions and language, is predominantly of western African provenance. What's your proof otherwise.
What genetic proof do you have that the Fulani are not the descendants of Uqba from Arabia and Bajjo Mangu?
quote:It is called a legend. It's safe to say that you are unaware of what a legend is. The burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate the factual merit of a legend cloaked in myth. Furthermore, as I said, different factions of a single ethnic group may even come up with distinct legends. Alas, you were unaware of this, because you are an outsider bent on becoming an armchair expert on a continent you've likely never even set foot on.
They say that are. If you say that they aren't, the burden of proof is on YOU.
quote:Apparently not too clear, as you managed to misread it.
What you said about the Jews is clear.
quote:I see that you've decided to reword your original post, by now including this: "who have occupied Palestine".
I will repeat. I asked you if you believe that the Jews today who have occupied Palestine and who claim that they are Hebrews are conjuring up legends or do you believe them. Your answer was:
quote:I mean by it, as it is spelled out. The problem is, you are trying to distort it, unsuccessfully.
"Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends."
Can you explain what you mean by this if you don't mean what I understand you to mean?
quote:Having an ancestor who was from the Arabian Peninsula means of Arab origin. You aren't making any sense.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:Let's be clear. These folks generally don't claim to be Arabs. They only cook up legends about eponymous ancestors that are supposed to have lived on the Arabian plate. There is a difference.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
First, it's not my claim. It's the assertion of the very people themselves and what makes their assertion "out of the ordinary" to you?
quote:This is what they say and I believe them and I don't see anything "out of the ordinary" about what they say, so I have no reason to call them liars and to call what has been believed about their origin for 1400 years a lie. You are calling them liars, so you have to prove that they are liars.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]
If you recall, I said that this trend of cooking up mythical Arabian ancestors that link said African groups to sacred figures of Islam is not "out of the norm" in Africa. That is the opposite of what you are reading into my posts, i.e. "out of the ordinary". What I'm saying that is "out of the ordinary", is passing as reality, that said Africans are not actually original to Africa. This is what I'm requesting you to prove, because you say that they actually descend from Arabian figures, and not from indigenous African ancestors.
quote:It's a language that developed in the region and is spoken by the Fulani, but wasn't spoken by the father of the Fulani - Uqba from Arabia.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:1)It belongs in the Niger-Congo superphylum. 2)It is closely related to Wolof and other Atlantic western African language phylums than any other language phylum. 3)The language is unique and original to the Fula. 4) The language is not spoken by Arabs or any other outsiders.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
What do you know about the language of the Fulani?
Now, you tell me what you know about the Fulani language.
quote:Their tradition says they are from Arabia. What's un-Arabian about their gene pool???
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:Their gene pool, as supported by their traditions and language, is predominantly of western African provenance. What's your proof otherwise.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
What genetic proof do you have that the Fulani are not the descendants of Uqba from Arabia and Bajjo Mangu?
quote:It's not called legend. It's called genealogy. But genealogy is an Arab thing that you know nothing about.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]quote:It is called a legend. It's safe to say that you are unaware of what a legend is.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
They say that are. If you say that they aren't, the burden of proof is on YOU.
quote:This is what I mean by your handicap of not understanding Africans, because you are an outsider trying to pose as an expert, i.e. an armchair expert.
Having an ancestor who was from the Arabian Peninsula means of Arab origin. You aren't making any sense.
quote:Your line of thinking is very strange. Legends serve a cultural purpose, and so, I wouldn't simply dismiss the bearers as "liars". This is like calling folks of religious faith "liars", even if what religious texts say do not withstand the scrutiny of empirical evidence. You act like you are new to the human race.
This is what they say and I believe them and I don't see anything "out of the ordinary" about what they say, so I have no reason to call them liars and to call what has been believed about their origin for 1400 years a lie. You are calling them liars, so you have to prove that they are liars.
quote:The keywords in your post: "developed in the region" and "spoken by the Fulani". If the Fulani are "Arabs", as you like to fantasize, then why is their Language "Fulani", and why isn't this language spoken by any other but the Fulani? Don't you get a sense that this kind of line of thinking should even get yourself to start laughing at you?
It's a language that developed in the region and is spoken by the Fulani, but wasn't spoken by the father of the Fulani - Uqba from Arabia.
quote:I've lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. Where do YOU live???
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Alas, you were unaware of this, because you are an outsider bent on becoming an armchair expert on a continent you've likely never even set foot on.
quote:What do you mean. Explain. And remember that Yiddish isn't Hebrew.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:I see that you've decided to reword your original post, by now including this: "who have occupied Palestine".
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]
I will repeat. I asked you if you believe that the Jews today who have occupied Palestine and who claim that they are Hebrews are conjuring up legends or do you believe them. Your answer was:
quote:I mean by it, as it is spelled out. The problem is, you are trying to distort it, unsuccessfully.
"Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends."
Can you explain what you mean by this if you don't mean what I understand you to mean?
quote:Take the Tamasheq for instance. They have at least two different legends amongst them. Yet, going by your logic, we should dismiss the legend that contradicts the mythical eponymous ancestor from Arabia. As an objective observer, I can explain why this is. Local variants of the legend likely predate the introduction of Islam. The legend involving an eponymous Arabian ancestor likely came about as a result of Islamic influence. The Tamasheq are just an example of many.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
It's not called legend. It's called genealogy. But genealogy is an Arab thing that you know nothing about.
quote:Haplogroups J and E are the most common Haplogroups on the Arabian Peninsula and are considered Arab haplogroups. And most people in the area called "Africa" who carry E1b1a claim an origin from the Arabian Peninsula.
Originally posted by KING:
awlaadberry
Trying to make Fulanis non African will be hard to accomplish. One thing you should Know is that the Fulani in Nigeria have E3a(E1b1a) at 100%. This Marker is commonly linked with West Africans. Also you must understand that Fula language is linked with other Niger Congo languages. Even though fulani stretch from Senegal to Sudan, There language that they speak stayed the same. We also have pics created on stone of Pre Fulas who resemble Wodaabe(Fulani people) in West Africa long before the coming of Arabs or Islam. The Fulani are not Arabs and trying to claim them as Arabs will just lead you down a wrong path of learning about these people.
Remember they Carry West African lineages at 100% in some cases so the genetic side has told us that Fulani are really linked with other West Africa Groups like the Wolof, Songhai, etc.
Peace
quote:For one, they are predominantly of hg E clades, which are generally rare in Arabia, like say M2 and E-M33 clades. Their maternal gene pool is largely western African, and even though this is western African, nomadic Fula have clades distinctive only to them and from the surrounding sedentary western African groups. Sure, there are outward Fulani who possess the familiar R clade, but even these are rare outside of Africa, the Arabian peninsula included.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Their tradition says they are from Arabia. What's un-Arabian about their gene pool???
quote:Where? Being there all your life, do you speak the local language? And how come what I'm telling seems like news to you. I am not one of those personalities who take for granted what someone claims behind a keyboard.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I've lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. Where do YOU live???
quote:You are starting off wrong. We Arabs use y-DNA to talk about origin - not mtdna. We are patrilineal.
Originally posted by KING:
awlaadberry
Take it easy Berry. Read this study about the MTDNA of Fulanis:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200602/ai_n17186281/pg_4/
In this study the Fula are nearly 80% west African. Now this is one study but it's good to learn a little about the people. Fulani are not from Arabia, They are overwelmingly West African.
Peace
quote:Not news, but nonsense. You can believe what you want. I don't have time to debate you further.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:For one, they are predominantly of hg E clades, which are generally rare in Arabia, like say M2 and E-M33 clades. Their maternal gene pool is largely western African, and even though this is western African, nomadic Fula have clades distinctive only to them and from the surrounding sedentary western African groups. Sure, there are outward Fulani who possess the familiar R clade, but even these are rare outside of Africa, the Arabian peninsula included.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Their tradition says they are from Arabia. What's un-Arabian about their gene pool???
quote:Where? Being there all your life, do you speak the local language? And how come what I'm telling seems like news to you. I am not one of those personalities who take for granted what someone claims behind a keyboard.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I've lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. Where do YOU live???
quote:You must be off your rocker. hg E is considered an Arab haplogroup by what nucleotide specifics, when they don't even carry half of the markers in this family, as found on the continent?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Haplogroups J and E are the most common Haplogroups on the Arabian Peninsula and are considered Arab haplogroups.
quote:If it were nonsense I was spouting, you would have swiftly provided counter-evidence, not shallow rhetoric of denials. You didn't even know that different factions of the very same ethnic groups, like say, the Tamasheq, could have multiple and distinct legends. Some of these legends don't even have connection to Arabia. You totally dismiss the fact that these groups speak languages entirely unique to them, and not a lick of which is spoken outside of the continent. They have markedly different gene pools from Arabian peninsula populations.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Not news, but nonsense.
quote:See, that's where you and I differ. I don't just believe in "what I want". I make sure facts stand behind what I believe.
You can believe what you want.
quote:Saw it coming. Copout is the tried and tested way out.
I don't have time to debate you further.
quote:What was the ancestor from Arabia, that you proposed in earlier discussions as their founding ancestor, female or male?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:You are starting off wrong. We Arabs use y-DNA to talk about origin - not mtdna. We are patrilineal.
Originally posted by KING:
awlaadberry
Take it easy Berry. Read this study about the MTDNA of Fulanis:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200602/ai_n17186281/pg_4/
In this study the Fula are nearly 80% west African. Now this is one study but it's good to learn a little about the people. Fulani are not from Arabia, They are overwelmingly West African.
Peace
quote:By "traditions", I'm referring to core culture that is practiced, not legends. As for what's un-Arabian about their gene pool, to reiterate: Hg J is rare to absent, while hg E is elevated, in accompaniment by traces of deep root African clades. This pattern would be un-Arabian about their gene pool. Additionally, the maternal gene pool is prodeminantly western African L types, including distinctive western African clusters peculiar only to the Fulani, especially the nomadic ones.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Their tradition says they are from Arabia. What's un-Arabian about their gene pool???
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Their gene pool, as supported by their traditions and language, is predominantly of western African provenance. What's your proof otherwise.
quote:Male
Originally posted by Kalonji:
quote:What was the ancestor from Arabia, that you proposed in earlier discussions as their founding ancestor, female or male?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:You are starting off wrong. We Arabs use y-DNA to talk about origin - not mtdna. We are patrilineal.
Originally posted by KING:
awlaadberry
Take it easy Berry. Read this study about the MTDNA of Fulanis:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200602/ai_n17186281/pg_4/
In this study the Fula are nearly 80% west African. Now this is one study but it's good to learn a little about the people. Fulani are not from Arabia, They are overwelmingly West African.
Peace
quote:You can call it copout or whatever you want. You haven't presented any proof - you are just talking and in my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about. It's a waste of my time to sit here and listen to your senseless talk which is not backed up by evidence.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:If it were nonsense I was spouting, you would have swiftly provided counter-evidence, not shallow rhetoric of denials. You didn't even know that different factions of the very same ethnic groups, like say, the Tamasheq, could have multiple and distinct legends. Some of these legends don't even have connection to Arabia. You totally dismiss the fact that these groups speak languages entirely unique to them, and not a lick of which is spoken outside of the continent. They have markedly different gene pools from Arabian peninsula populations.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Not news, but nonsense.
quote:See, that's where you and I differ. I don't just believe in "what I want". I make sure facts stand behind what I believe.
You can believe what you want.
quote:Saw it coming. Copout is the tried and tested way out.
I don't have time to debate you further.
Ps: The smokescreen about having set foot on the African continent will not be taken at face value. Anything short of specifying the locality, how long you were there, and your linguistic proof that you speak local African language fluently, will not be accepted as replacement of evidence that you are remotely familiar with African territory.
quote:I know nothing about their origins.
Originally posted by Kalonji:
Ok, one more question, are Bantu groups such as Hutu, Zulu etc from Arabia?
quote:Why did you choose just the Hutu and Zulu to ask about?
Originally posted by Kalonji:
Ok, one more question, are Bantu groups such as Hutu, Zulu etc from Arabia?
quote:I called it out how it is, not how I wanted. You waved the white flag -- that's called a copout.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You can call it copout or whatever you want.
quote:The following proofs were emotionally-repelled, not factually, by you:
You haven't presented any proof - you are just talking and in my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.
quote:This is what I mean, when I say you are all emotional jive, nothing more.
It's a waste of my time to sit here and listen to your senseless talk which is not backed up by evidence.
quote:Because it's a lie, to help you promote your wacky theories about people you hardly know about it, yet want desperately to be related to via religious-driven legends.
I don't have to tell you where I live and how long I've lived here.
quote:And I say you lie.
I told you that I have lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. That's all you need to know.
quote:Emoo woloo bah lehti. Guess what I just said?
I said that much because you said that I have never seen the area. I asked you where you live. Where? And concerning the language, yes I speak the language. What about you?
quote:And I say you lie.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:I called it out how it is, not how I wanted. You waved the white flag -- that's called a copout.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You can call it copout or whatever you want.
quote:The following proofs were emotionally-repelled, not factually, by you:
You haven't presented any proof - you are just talking and in my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.
1)The genetic evidence. Largely E clades on the paternal side, with hg J being rare to absent. Maternal DNA are L types, and overwhelmingly African.
2)Legends: That the legends don't even have consistency across different elements of the very same ethnic group that is claimed to have legends involving some Arabian eponymous ancestor. Some of the legends even have logical holes in them. The eponymous ancestors of Arabian extract largely exists only in Africans of Islamic faith or Jewish faiths. Why is that?
3)Language: You have been unable to explain why these groups have their own unique languages, not only within the continent, but that these languages are not spoken outside of the continent, let alone Arabs. If they had an eponymous Arabian ancestor, they wouldn't be having languages unique to them. They would be speaking languages of a group outside the ethnic group in question.
quote:This is what I mean, when I say you are all emotional jive, nothing more.
It's a waste of my time to sit here and listen to your senseless talk which is not backed up by evidence.
quote:Because it's a lie, to help you promote your wacky theories about people you hardly know about it, yet want desperately to be related to via religious-driven legends.
I don't have to tell you where I live and how long I've lived here.
[quote=
I told you that I have lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. That's all you need to know.
quote:Emoo woloo bah lehti. Guess what I just said? [/QUOTE]
I said that much because you said that I have never seen the area. I asked you where you live. Where? And concerning the language, yes I speak the language. What about you?
quote:Do you find that impossible? If so, why?
Originally posted by Kalonji:
If you say haplogroup E signifies Arabian ancestry, and that it has an Arabian origin, it would mean that the predominant bulk of Africans, including members of such diverse groups as Bantu's and Nilo Saharans and Pygmies, are ultimately from Arabia.
Are they?
quote:I know you can't understand Arabic, but read the letters in the box at the top of the page here:
Originally posted by Kalonji:
If you say haplogroup E signifies Arabian ancestry, and that it has an Arabian origin, it would mean that the predominant bulk of Africans, including members of such diverse groups as Bantu's and Nilo Saharans and Pygmies, are ultimately from Arabia.
Are they?
quote:Look at this fool, writing to me in Arabic, when I said I am African.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
طير
Guess what I just said.
quote:But "Africa" is a landmass - not a race, so why can't the Arabic language be "African"??? Develop one opinion and then talk to me.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Look at this fool, writing to me in Arabic, when I said I am African.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
طير
Guess what I just said.
quote:You are clearly a rookie at interpreting DNA distribution. R1b1 is rare in Arabs, and in fact, largely associated with Europeans, if anything. Hg J is even rarer, if not absent, in most western African groups. To the extent you find minute traces, it comes largely from interaction with Maghrebi, who do have some, largely from historic gene flow during expansion of Islam in that region.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
They are all Arab haplogroups. You will notice E, R, J1, J2. The Hausa are R1b1, which is an Arab haplogroup and the Hausa say that they are of Arab origin, but The Explorer says that they are liars.
quote:All those E carrying groups carry mutations within haplogroup E that are highly specific to Africans, and Arabian occurances, quantities and diversification of such mutations don't show up in frequencies in Arabia that one would expect if it originated in Arabia, but the former expressions signifying place of origin, that is; diversification, quantity and the presence of underived ancestral states all occur in Africa. The same story in the case of language.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Do you find that impossible? If so, why?
Originally posted by Kalonji:
If you say haplogroup E signifies Arabian ancestry, and that it has an Arabian origin, it would mean that the predominant bulk of Africans, including members of such diverse groups as Bantu's and Nilo Saharans and Pygmies, are ultimately from Arabia.
Are they?
quote:You strike me as a person not fully in control of your faculty. An African is a person native to the continental plate called Africa. Must I teach you this basic sense? And no, Arabic is not an African language, though it does ultimately derive from an African language.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But "Africa" is a landmass - not a race, so why can't the Arabic language be "African"??? Develop one opinion and then talk to me.
quote:Now you are really showing your ignorance. You need to just stop it.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:You strike me as a person not fully in control of your faculty. An African is a person native to the continental plate called Africa. Must I teach you this basic sense? And no, Arabic is not an African language, though it does ultimately derive from an African language.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But "Africa" is a landmass - not a race, so why can't the Arabic language be "African"??? Develop one opinion and then talk to me.
quote:The origin of r1b1 v88 is "Western Asia". What are you talking about? I'm going to just let you babble as you like. I'm out.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:You are clearly a rookie at interpreting DNA distribution. R1b1 is rare in Arabs, and in fact, largely associated with Europeans, if anything. Hg J is even rarer, if not absent, in most western African groups. To the extent you find minute traces, it comes largely from interaction with Maghrebi, who do have some, largely from historic gene flow during expansion of Islam in that region.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
They are all Arab haplogroups. You will notice E, R, J1, J2. The Hausa are R1b1, which is an Arab haplogroup and the Hausa say that they are of Arab origin, but The Explorer says that they are liars.
quote:I asked you a simple question. Why can't you give me a simple yes or no answer?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I have little time to school a rookie on minimum reading skills of how to read genetic data. So I direct you to these discussions and await your replies to my posts; squash your stupidity and learn:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002368;p=1#000000
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003735;p=1#000000
quote:What say you, awlaadberry, to this?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Observation: Horn of Africa populations which have considerable frequencies of the M78 mutation, generally tend to show negligible, if any, Hg R chromosomes. It even has low frequencies in coastal northern Africa, with a gradient that dramatically drops from the Nile Valley and westward from there. The same pattern is observed about the Cruciani's V88 variant. According to this study, at least from what I've read here, V88 chromosomes start to fade in frequency as one leaves the African continent. Only *5* "Eurasian" individuals showed up the V88 marker. One would expect this marker to have visible presence in the European regions around the Mediterranean sea and the so-called "Near East", if it were a primary marker for people who were said to be moving with their "Neolithic agriculture-based subsistence" traditions to new areas. Hg J is found in visible frequencies in these areas. On the other hand, J is negligible, if any at all, found in the central-western African populations bearing the Hg R chromosomes. These same populations which were implicated in considerable frequencies of Hg R, either have been implicated in relatively low levels of E1b1b markers [one of the markers generally implicated in the spread of the Neolithic economy into Europe, esp. the M78 lineage] or none [according to Cruciani's 2002 study for example, the Ouldeme who reported 95% paraphyletic Hg R, reported no M78]. So, there is some degree of co-existence between E1b1b and Hg R in these areas. In this case, the presence of E1b1b may well serve the purpose of partially explaining how the proto-Chadic speakers attained their "Afro-Asiatic" affiliated language phylum. If Hg J and E co-existence is reflective of the spread of the Neolithic agricultural economy, then possible Neolithic spread of Hg R with Hg E would have been migratory event independent from that movement.
Ps - Let's not forget that Cruciani's study does not account for rare R clade diversity in Africa.
quote:I don't have time to read all of that. All I want from you now is an answer in your own words. Is r1b1 v88 from "Western Asia"? Aren't the Hausa r1b1? Are the Hausa "Africans". Answer these three questions briefly and in your own words. Don't copy and paste. Tell me what's in your head.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
More on R1b1 v88, see:
quote:What say you, awlaadberry, to this?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Observation: Horn of Africa populations which have considerable frequencies of the M78 mutation, generally tend to show negligible, if any, Hg R chromosomes. It even has low frequencies in coastal northern Africa, with a gradient that dramatically drops from the Nile Valley and westward from there. The same pattern is observed about the Cruciani's V88 variant. According to this study, at least from what I've read here, V88 chromosomes start to fade in frequency as one leaves the African continent. Only *5* "Eurasian" individuals showed up the V88 marker. One would expect this marker to have visible presence in the European regions around the Mediterranean sea and the so-called "Near East", if it were a primary marker for people who were said to be moving with their "Neolithic agriculture-based subsistence" traditions to new areas. Hg J is found in visible frequencies in these areas. On the other hand, J is negligible, if any at all, found in the central-western African populations bearing the Hg R chromosomes. These same populations which were implicated in considerable frequencies of Hg R, either have been implicated in relatively low levels of E1b1b markers [one of the markers generally implicated in the spread of the Neolithic economy into Europe, esp. the M78 lineage] or none [according to Cruciani's 2002 study for example, the Ouldeme who reported 95% paraphyletic Hg R, reported no M78]. So, there is some degree of co-existence between E1b1b and Hg R in these areas. In this case, the presence of E1b1b may well serve the purpose of partially explaining how the proto-Chadic speakers attained their "Afro-Asiatic" affiliated language phylum. If Hg J and E co-existence is reflective of the spread of the Neolithic agricultural economy, then possible Neolithic spread of Hg R with Hg E would have been migratory event independent from that movement.
Ps - Let's not forget that Cruciani's study does not account for rare R clade diversity in Africa.
Link:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002456;p=1#000000
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
quote:You haven't said anything. I don't understand your purpose in pasting all of that. I asked you 3 simple questions and you haven't answered me yet. 1.) Aren't the Hausa r1b1a V88? 2.) Isn't the origin of r1b1a V88 Western Asia? 3.) Are the Hausa "Africans"? Just answer these three questions with simple yes/no answers. You don't need to copy and paste anything at this point.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are simply posting random material without addressing what I said in the post above. This is what constitutes copying & pasting without thinking on your own.
quote:El-Qalqashandi says, “When Ifriqish completed his invasion of the Maghrib (the western part of Africa), he left a garrison of Himyarite tribes of Sanhaja and Ketama there. These two tribes are there until today. They are not of Berber origin. El-Tabari, El-Jirjani, El-Masudi, Ibn Kalbi, El-Suhaili and all Arab genealogists agree on this point.”
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
They are speaking the Berber language. Their name "tamhaq" is the same word "tamazigh" by changing some letter due to their own berber variation.
The arab historians didn't make such dinstinction between the Berbers. Sanhaja were just Berbers to them. It is to you to show me that they didn't consider them as Berbers.
quote:Unfortunately you are trying to impose folk traditions over historical data and biological facts. The truth is that the nomadic lifestyle started in Africa and then spread to other environments, most notably Arabia. The Sahara has gone through wet/dry phases since before man left Africa. The adaptation of the native inhabitants of the Sahara to a desert environment pre-dates any sort of Islamic conquest. Hence any idea that nomadism in the Sahara started with migrations of Arabian tribes is pure nonsense. Now, that does not discount the idea that Yemeni tribes moved into the Sahara during the Islamic conquest. It just means that they are not the basis of the indigenous Berber populations that originated in East Africa 2000 years ago. And it is those populations who are the ancestors of the native Tuaregs of the Sahara. In fact, this expansion of Berber tongues is dated to the first millenium AD, around the same time as the arrival of the so-called Arabs.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:El-Qalqashandi says, “When Ifriqish completed his invasion of the Maghrib (the western part of Africa), he left a garrison of Himyarite tribes of Sanhaja and Ketama there. These two tribes are there until today. They are not of Berber origin. El-Tabari, El-Jirjani, El-Masudi, Ibn Kalbi, El-Suhaili and all Arab genealogists agree on this point.”
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
They are speaking the Berber language. Their name "tamhaq" is the same word "tamazigh" by changing some letter due to their own berber variation.
The arab historians didn't make such dinstinction between the Berbers. Sanhaja were just Berbers to them. It is to you to show me that they didn't consider them as Berbers.
The author of Tarikh El-Sudan, Abdel Rahman El-Saadi, who was from the Muleththimin, quotes Ibn El-Khatib as saying, “These Lamtun are related to the Lamtuna and they are from the children of Lamt. Lamt, Jedal, Lemt, and Mashdhuf are descended from Sanhaja. Lemt is the forefather of Lemta and Masdhuf is the forefather of the Masufa. They are nomadic, transitory people who travel about in the Sahara. The Sanhaja are descended from Himyar. There is no genealogical relation between them and the Berbers except through marriage. They left the Yemen and moved to the Sahara."
quote:From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
n the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels; (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.)
The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.
quote:To be honest with you, I have no idea of what you are saying. And what Islamic invasion are you talking about??? And are you saying that the Arab nomads of the Arabian Desert are from "Africa"?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Unfortunately you are trying to impose folk traditions over historical data and biological facts. The truth is that the nomadic lifestyle started in Africa and then spread to other environments, most notably Arabia. The Sahara has gone through wet/dry phases since before man left Africa. The adaptation of the native inhabitants of the Sahara to a desert environment pre-dates any sort of Islamic conquest. Hence any idea that nomadism in the Sahara started with migrations of Arabian tribes is pure nonsense. Now, that does not discount the idea that Yemeni tribes moved into the Sahara during the Islamic conquest. It just means that they are not the basis of the indigenous Berber populations that originated in East Africa 2000 years ago. And it is those populations who are the ancestors of the native Tuaregs of the Sahara. In fact, this expansion of Berber tongues is dated to the first millenium AD, around the same time as the arrival of the so-called Arabs.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:El-Qalqashandi says, “When Ifriqish completed his invasion of the Maghrib (the western part of Africa), he left a garrison of Himyarite tribes of Sanhaja and Ketama there. These two tribes are there until today. They are not of Berber origin. El-Tabari, El-Jirjani, El-Masudi, Ibn Kalbi, El-Suhaili and all Arab genealogists agree on this point.”
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
They are speaking the Berber language. Their name "tamhaq" is the same word "tamazigh" by changing some letter due to their own berber variation.
The arab historians didn't make such dinstinction between the Berbers. Sanhaja were just Berbers to them. It is to you to show me that they didn't consider them as Berbers.
The author of Tarikh El-Sudan, Abdel Rahman El-Saadi, who was from the Muleththimin, quotes Ibn El-Khatib as saying, “These Lamtun are related to the Lamtuna and they are from the children of Lamt. Lamt, Jedal, Lemt, and Mashdhuf are descended from Sanhaja. Lemt is the forefather of Lemta and Masdhuf is the forefather of the Masufa. They are nomadic, transitory people who travel about in the Sahara. The Sanhaja are descended from Himyar. There is no genealogical relation between them and the Berbers except through marriage. They left the Yemen and moved to the Sahara."
Now, if linguists say clearly that the most recent expansion of Berber languages in North Africa and the Sahara took place in the first millenium AD, then how on earth are these people who migrated on Camels not berbers?
quote:From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
n the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels; (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.)
The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.
My personal belief is that African nomadic peoples have wandered between East Africa, the Levant and the Sahara for many years with similar features in common with Bedouins of Syria, Jordan and Palestine, Bedouins in Sinai, natives of Arabia and the peoples of the Sahara. Hence, the relationship between aboriginal peoples of East Africa, Arabia and those of the Sahara. But that has nothing to do with being Arab since such movements are more ancient than that.
quote:Which research are you referring to?
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Welcome to EgyptSearch and multi-disciplinary reseach.
quote:Fast forward this to 4:30, watch it, and tell me if the Toubou are "African" or Arab:Toubou
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Unfortunately you are trying to impose folk traditions over historical data and biological facts. The truth is that the nomadic lifestyle started in Africa and then spread to other environments, most notably Arabia. The Sahara has gone through wet/dry phases since before man left Africa. The adaptation of the native inhabitants of the Sahara to a desert environment pre-dates any sort of Islamic conquest. Hence any idea that nomadism in the Sahara started with migrations of Arabian tribes is pure nonsense. Now, that does not discount the idea that Yemeni tribes moved into the Sahara during the Islamic conquest. It just means that they are not the basis of the indigenous Berber populations that originated in East Africa 2000 years ago. And it is those populations who are the ancestors of the native Tuaregs of the Sahara. In fact, this expansion of Berber tongues is dated to the first millenium AD, around the same time as the arrival of the so-called Arabs.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:El-Qalqashandi says, “When Ifriqish completed his invasion of the Maghrib (the western part of Africa), he left a garrison of Himyarite tribes of Sanhaja and Ketama there. These two tribes are there until today. They are not of Berber origin. El-Tabari, El-Jirjani, El-Masudi, Ibn Kalbi, El-Suhaili and all Arab genealogists agree on this point.”
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
They are speaking the Berber language. Their name "tamhaq" is the same word "tamazigh" by changing some letter due to their own berber variation.
The arab historians didn't make such dinstinction between the Berbers. Sanhaja were just Berbers to them. It is to you to show me that they didn't consider them as Berbers.
The author of Tarikh El-Sudan, Abdel Rahman El-Saadi, who was from the Muleththimin, quotes Ibn El-Khatib as saying, “These Lamtun are related to the Lamtuna and they are from the children of Lamt. Lamt, Jedal, Lemt, and Mashdhuf are descended from Sanhaja. Lemt is the forefather of Lemta and Masdhuf is the forefather of the Masufa. They are nomadic, transitory people who travel about in the Sahara. The Sanhaja are descended from Himyar. There is no genealogical relation between them and the Berbers except through marriage. They left the Yemen and moved to the Sahara."
Now, if linguists say clearly that the most recent expansion of Berber languages in North Africa and the Sahara took place in the first millenium AD, then how on earth are these people who migrated on Camels not berbers?
quote:From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
n the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels; (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.)
The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.
My personal belief is that African nomadic peoples have wandered between East Africa, the Levant and the Sahara for many years with similar features in common with Bedouins of Syria, Jordan and Palestine, Bedouins in Sinai, natives of Arabia and the peoples of the Sahara. Hence, the relationship between aboriginal peoples of East Africa, Arabia and those of the Sahara. But that has nothing to do with being Arab since such movements are more ancient than that.
quote:You are better off admitting that your attention span of grasping DNA topics is even below that of a rookie. You will sound more credible that way.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You haven't said anything. I don't understand your purpose in pasting all of that.
quote:You can ask me your idiotic questions a thousands times more if you like, but it will do you no good, if you simply don't understand my reply to you. I gave two reply posts, which you have been unable to react to: one dealing with hg E, and the other with regard to your fairy tale about R sub-clade V88 being "southwest Asian".
I asked you 3 simple questions and you haven't answered me yet.
quote:You are a complete dullard, if you think I'll buy into this as anything short of another cop-out.
You don't need to copy and paste anything at this point.
quote:I take it that you are claiming that r1b1a v88 is not of southwest Asian origin. Is this what you are saying???
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:You are better off admitting that your attention span of grasping DNA topics is even below that of a rookie. You will sound more credible that way.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You haven't said anything. I don't understand your purpose in pasting all of that.
quote:You can ask me your idiotic questions a thousands times more if you like, but it will do you no good, if you simply don't understand my reply to you. I gave two reply posts, which you have been unable to react to: one dealing with hg E, and the other with regard to your fairy tale about R sub-clade V88 being "southwest Asian".
I asked you 3 simple questions and you haven't answered me yet.
quote:You are a complete dullard, if you think I'll buy into this as anything short of another cop-out.
You don't need to copy and paste anything at this point.
quote:You can believe your theories as you like. I'm going to go ahead and believe what the scholars say about the origin of r1b1a because it's consistent with what the Hausa carriers of r1b1a say about their origin:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Dummy, read my post on the R marker, and reply with counter evidence. Absence of this reply is essentially a gesture of white flag waving on your part.
quote:Actually this is true only historically recently, since it is a fact many Arab tribes especially during pre-Islamic times were matrilineal particularly in the south as opposed to patrilineal. They were also matriarchal, but all of this changed with Islamic expansion.
Originally posted by KING:
awlaadberry
What you said about Arabs is True...The part about them being patrilineal...
quote:Which Arabs were matriarchal and what has Explorer rectified?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Actually this is true only historically recently, since it is a fact many Arab tribes especially during pre-Islamic times were matrilineal particularly in the south as opposed to patrilineal. They were also matriarchal, but all of this changed with Islamic expansion.
Originally posted by KING:
awlaadberry
What you said about Arabs is True...The part about them being patrilineal...
As for everything else Berry says, I believe Explorer has rectified.
quote:You are the epitome of a dummy. You are not engaging my points. You are simply blindly copying & pasting Cruciani's piece, which my post addresses, akin to shooting bullets at random and hoping that one accidentally hits the target. I believe I said you were an armchair expert-wannabe of Africa. This post solidifies that observation.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I will truly be a dummy if I disregard all of this evidence and listen to what you have to say.
quote:So you have written Cruciani and Wells off as dummies. Who are you?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:You are the epitome of a dummy. You are not engaging my points. You are simply blindly copying & pasting Cruciani's piece, which my post addresses, akin to shooting bullets at random and hoping that one accidentally hits the target. I believe I said you were an armchair expert-wannabe of Africa. This post solidifies that observation.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I will truly be a dummy if I disregard all of this evidence and listen to what you have to say.
quote:The person who has been kicking ass in this exchange. And you are the person who will come for more.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Who are you?
quote:I cite the experts and you aren't one. I also use my intellect and my intellect tells me that if the Hausa say that they are from the Near East and the experts say that the origin of their y-dna is the Near East, the Hausa are from the Near East. What you think doesn't matter to me because in my opinion, the imaginary wall that you have built between the Arabian Peninsula and the area you call "Africa" is handicapping you and rendering it impossible for you to think logically. For one to believe that it is impossible for peoples and tribes in the area called "Africa" to be originally from the Arabian Peninsula, which is just a stone's throw away, is utterly STUPID. And that's YOU Explorer.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Nope, because they actually make a case [however wrong it may be]. I do however, write you off as a dummy, because you don't know what you are doing. Blindly citing studies without understanding them cannot be concealed. You disagree. Tell me specifically where I went wrong in my post, and how you intend to rectify it. Don't simply copy & paste material I was supposed to have been addressing.
quote:Have you published anything? Who are you to refute the experts. Publish something to gain some credibility. The experts say that r1b1 is from the Near East. Do you understand that what you say really means nothing. You're asking people to ignore what the experts say and listen to you. That's silly.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are not using your intellect when you blindly copy & paste. You are sponging off someone else's intellect, like a parasite without its own faculty. I just critiqued and criticized the very study you posted, and you are telling me that what was just rebuked addresses my post. Only a moron doesn't know what's wrong with that picture.
quote:Whatever.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Have you specified and diffused my counter-argument against the piece you posted? Do you understand that failure of producing this, means your ass has been owned? Get to work, kid.
quote:Finally thrown in the towel? This is what I'd be reduced too, if I like you, was exposed as a religious quack who pretends to know people from afar.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Whatever.
quote:Is this the same attitude you apply to what's written in the field, when your type is described as filthy little suicidal terrorists who murder in the name of virgins in heaven? You are sucka, my friend.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
When I see it written in the field that what has been believed about the Near Eastern origin of r1b1 is incorrect and that it has been proven by Explorer (or whatever your name is)
quote:When I say that E, R, J1, J2 are Arab haplogroups, that's precisely what I mean - that "Arabs have these lineages in high frequencies, so much so that those are what much of Arabia is made up of, on the paternal side".
Originally posted by Whatbox:
Now, as far as E & J being unequivocally "Arab", this is misleading in a rather hysterical way. Both genetic Haplogroups predate the first historical mention of Arab identity because they arise somewhere in prehistory.
They are Arab in that Arabs certainly have those lineages in high frequencies, so much so that those are what much of Arabia is made up of, on the paternal side.
quote:Here's what the experts say about your argument here :
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Have you specified and diffused my counter-argument against the piece you posted? Do you understand that failure of producing this, means your ass has been owned? Get to work, kid.
quote:But your Toubou example does not contradict what I said. The first nomadic people on earth are AFRICANS. All other nomadic lifestyles derive from this nomadic hunter gather lifestyle. The Africans who crossed back and forth from Africa into Arabia were still blacks. And the people of Chad like the people of Sudan have been impacted by Arab migrations from the last 2000 years, but why aren't they claiming that Sudanese are not the "original" folks of Sudan? The first people of the Sahara were black Africans and the Toubou are also black Africans and even if they have some "Arab" blood from 30,000 years ago, those people 30,000 years ago were black Africans by phenotype anyway and certainly the first people of the Sahara did not come from Arabia.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Fast forward this to 4:30, watch it, and tell me if the Toubou are "African" or Arab:Toubou
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Unfortunately you are trying to impose folk traditions over historical data and biological facts. The truth is that the nomadic lifestyle started in Africa and then spread to other environments, most notably Arabia. The Sahara has gone through wet/dry phases since before man left Africa. The adaptation of the native inhabitants of the Sahara to a desert environment pre-dates any sort of Islamic conquest. Hence any idea that nomadism in the Sahara started with migrations of Arabian tribes is pure nonsense. Now, that does not discount the idea that Yemeni tribes moved into the Sahara during the Islamic conquest. It just means that they are not the basis of the indigenous Berber populations that originated in East Africa 2000 years ago. And it is those populations who are the ancestors of the native Tuaregs of the Sahara. In fact, this expansion of Berber tongues is dated to the first millenium AD, around the same time as the arrival of the so-called Arabs.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:El-Qalqashandi says, “When Ifriqish completed his invasion of the Maghrib (the western part of Africa), he left a garrison of Himyarite tribes of Sanhaja and Ketama there. These two tribes are there until today. They are not of Berber origin. El-Tabari, El-Jirjani, El-Masudi, Ibn Kalbi, El-Suhaili and all Arab genealogists agree on this point.”
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
They are speaking the Berber language. Their name "tamhaq" is the same word "tamazigh" by changing some letter due to their own berber variation.
The arab historians didn't make such dinstinction between the Berbers. Sanhaja were just Berbers to them. It is to you to show me that they didn't consider them as Berbers.
The author of Tarikh El-Sudan, Abdel Rahman El-Saadi, who was from the Muleththimin, quotes Ibn El-Khatib as saying, “These Lamtun are related to the Lamtuna and they are from the children of Lamt. Lamt, Jedal, Lemt, and Mashdhuf are descended from Sanhaja. Lemt is the forefather of Lemta and Masdhuf is the forefather of the Masufa. They are nomadic, transitory people who travel about in the Sahara. The Sanhaja are descended from Himyar. There is no genealogical relation between them and the Berbers except through marriage. They left the Yemen and moved to the Sahara."
Now, if linguists say clearly that the most recent expansion of Berber languages in North Africa and the Sahara took place in the first millenium AD, then how on earth are these people who migrated on Camels not berbers?
quote:From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
n the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels; (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.)
The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.
My personal belief is that African nomadic peoples have wandered between East Africa, the Levant and the Sahara for many years with similar features in common with Bedouins of Syria, Jordan and Palestine, Bedouins in Sinai, natives of Arabia and the peoples of the Sahara. Hence, the relationship between aboriginal peoples of East Africa, Arabia and those of the Sahara. But that has nothing to do with being Arab since such movements are more ancient than that.
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
quote:Call me what you want, but at the end of the day, I'm more Arab than you'll ever be Mazigh.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
AwlaadBerry is himself a Black african (eventually from sudan) and got a great dosis of arab ideology. He found his lost sources in mythical nonsens of "Ifriqish who conquered Ifriqya", a legandary hero like hercules. While he calls africa "arika" because he was not happt with the fact that africa was already in use when the arabs came to africa (tunesia), and now he suppose that this "ifriqish" is arab, forgetting that the name is from "Afer" and got the forme "africa" by the latins, and the name is given by the romans to modern tunesia after conquering Carthago.
He didn't tell as when did this Ifriqish conquered africa, and how? and what are archeological sources and who are those peoples who recoreded this.
A story like the stories of amon, zeus, hercules, atlas.... this is the only "history" (that is even invented in medieval times) which can support his inventions.
But after all, awlaadberry is himself not arab. He is arabized since he is a black like the arabized people of Sudan. Which he calls the pure arabs, contrary to the arabs of arabia who are fake arabs. A common view with afrocentrists but with arabcentric taste.
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:But your Toubou example does not contradict what I said. The first nomadic people on earth are AFRICANS. All other nomadic lifestyles derive from this nomadic hunter gather lifestyle. The Africans who crossed back and forth from Africa into Arabia were still blacks. And the people of Chad like the people of Sudan have been impacted by Arab migrations from the last 2000 years, but why aren't they claiming that Sudanese are not the "original" folks of Sudan? The first people of the Sahara were black Africans and the Toubou are also black Africans and even if they have some "Arab" blood from 30,000 years ago, those people 30,000 years ago were black Africans by phenotype anyway and certainly the first people of the Sahara did not come from Arabia.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Fast forward this to 4:30, watch it, and tell me if the Toubou are "African" or Arab:Toubou
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Unfortunately you are trying to impose folk traditions over historical data and biological facts. The truth is that the nomadic lifestyle started in Africa and then spread to other environments, most notably Arabia. The Sahara has gone through wet/dry phases since before man left Africa. The adaptation of the native inhabitants of the Sahara to a desert environment pre-dates any sort of Islamic conquest. Hence any idea that nomadism in the Sahara started with migrations of Arabian tribes is pure nonsense. Now, that does not discount the idea that Yemeni tribes moved into the Sahara during the Islamic conquest. It just means that they are not the basis of the indigenous Berber populations that originated in East Africa 2000 years ago. And it is those populations who are the ancestors of the native Tuaregs of the Sahara. In fact, this expansion of Berber tongues is dated to the first millenium AD, around the same time as the arrival of the so-called Arabs.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:El-Qalqashandi says, “When Ifriqish completed his invasion of the Maghrib (the western part of Africa), he left a garrison of Himyarite tribes of Sanhaja and Ketama there. These two tribes are there until today. They are not of Berber origin. El-Tabari, El-Jirjani, El-Masudi, Ibn Kalbi, El-Suhaili and all Arab genealogists agree on this point.”
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:Who are the Tuaregs?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here.
We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
They are speaking the Berber language. Their name "tamhaq" is the same word "tamazigh" by changing some letter due to their own berber variation.
The arab historians didn't make such dinstinction between the Berbers. Sanhaja were just Berbers to them. It is to you to show me that they didn't consider them as Berbers.
The author of Tarikh El-Sudan, Abdel Rahman El-Saadi, who was from the Muleththimin, quotes Ibn El-Khatib as saying, “These Lamtun are related to the Lamtuna and they are from the children of Lamt. Lamt, Jedal, Lemt, and Mashdhuf are descended from Sanhaja. Lemt is the forefather of Lemta and Masdhuf is the forefather of the Masufa. They are nomadic, transitory people who travel about in the Sahara. The Sanhaja are descended from Himyar. There is no genealogical relation between them and the Berbers except through marriage. They left the Yemen and moved to the Sahara."
Now, if linguists say clearly that the most recent expansion of Berber languages in North Africa and the Sahara took place in the first millenium AD, then how on earth are these people who migrated on Camels not berbers?
quote:From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
n the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels; (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.)
The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.
My personal belief is that African nomadic peoples have wandered between East Africa, the Levant and the Sahara for many years with similar features in common with Bedouins of Syria, Jordan and Palestine, Bedouins in Sinai, natives of Arabia and the peoples of the Sahara. Hence, the relationship between aboriginal peoples of East Africa, Arabia and those of the Sahara. But that has nothing to do with being Arab since such movements are more ancient than that.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:You are right that this statement is quite simple, because there is not an ounce of fact it is based on. Disagree? Evidence!
Originally posted by Whatbox:
Simple as this. They say they are the Arabs that first inhabited the Sahara instead of Arabia.
quote:Oh yeah, it is. The only thing that's probably puzzling here, is why you of all people is a victim of this kind of thinking. Then again, there are posters here who've been around this block for 6 or 7+ years who never seem to get the most fundamental facts down.
This isn't that far from reality.
quote:Explain what you mean by "a desert whose inhabitants had mostly left".
The two areas share an ancient migration history, though while the Africans heading West adapted to a desert whose inhabitants had mostly left the ones heading into Arabia likely mixed with the Asian and West Asian population there.
quote:I take it that you buy into this loony idea that essentially all Africans come from an Arabic eponymous ancestor after all. Correct?
It's amazing how accurately peoples can remember the histories of where their ancestors come from and who they are related to.
quote:Care to cite the post in question? And even if this were so, how does that serve as evidence of Arabic origin of Africans?
I a few times (like three i think) read something written by Berber and Amazighen speaking of Ethiopians as brothers or something of the like.
quote:Going by your posts above, it is amazing that you are now mindful that no such thing as Arabs existed as far as the time frame you were earlier on implicating Arabs.
Now, as far as E & J being unequivocally "Arab", this is misleading in a rather hysterical way. Both genetic Haplogroups predate the first historical mention of Arab identity because they arise somewhere in prehistory.
quote:This is gobledygook talk. Explain in detail nucleotide specifics what deems hg E an Arabic lineage. Hg E occurs in visible but low incidences in the Arabian plate populations. It has a haphazard/patchy frequency and/or distribution pattern there, unlike the more uniform distribution of the lineage on the African continent. There is not a population in Africa today without the P2 clade. You are here, trying to clown me and others into thinking all these guys descend from Arabs. Are you for real?
They are Arab in that Arabs certainly have those lineages in high frequencies, so much so that those are what much of Arabia is made up of, on the paternal side.
quote:You'd think that this alone would have cautioned you into labeling it an Arab lineage just a few lines ago, but it didn't. Crack science never makes sense.
However those lineages predate Arabs
quote:You have zero evidence of Arabic origin of hg E. I dare you to make a case for it.
and so when found in people of non-Arabian descent are not signs of Arabian descent necessarily.
quote:This is an astonishingly silly statement to make. You scratch your head as to whether hg E is a marker of African ancestry. Even Eurocentric geneticists of European decent have gotten this part right, yet some poster who claims to be at least partially of African descent scratches his head as to whether hg E signifies African descent. Amazing; if I hadn't directly heard it myself, but through hearsay, I probably would have a hard time believing it.
Neither are they signs of direct African descent per se, but they are signs of African descent somewhere on down the line but recent (Paleantologically speaking).
quote:Simpleton, out of the above, the primary and modal marker of Arabian plate Arab populations is just J1. The others seem to be secondary markers brought into said Arab populations by outside sources.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
When I say that E, R, J1, J2 are Arab haplogroups, that's precisely what I mean - that "Arabs have these lineages in high frequencies, so much so that those are what much of Arabia is made up of, on the paternal side".
quote:You don't know what you are talking about.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Simpleton, out of the above, the primary and modal marker of Arabian plate Arab populations is just J1. The others seem to be secondary markers brought into said Arab populations by outside sources.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
When I say that E, R, J1, J2 are Arab haplogroups, that's precisely what I mean - that "Arabs have these lineages in high frequencies, so much so that those are what much of Arabia is made up of, on the paternal side".
quote:1)Name these so-called "experts". 2) Did the so-called "experts" specify where I went wrong in the citation I asked you to react to. 3)Did "they" demonstrate with empirical evidence, how I am supposed to be "depending a particular political point of view"? If so, recite the line with that specificity.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Here's what the experts say about your argument :
"My first take is that the quoted text is written with the aim of defending a particular political point of view.
quote:Are we told why this is not true? I've informed the reader as to why it is true.
Further, there are a few specific errors of fact. For example ". . . African R1*-M173 chromosomes were tested for the P25 mutation, and came up negative. . . ." is not true.
quote:Oh yeah it is. The entire European branches of hg R have this mutation, and indeed, the V88-bearing Africans. Don't tell me this is your serious effort at posing any challenge here.
And even if it WAS true, P25 is not a marker you'd want to hang any sort of argument on (see here )".
quote:You suppose your emotionally-defensive "Simon says this or that" carries any value.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You don't know what you are talking about.
quote:Explorer, talk to someone who is impressed by your babbling. I'm not. Or go and debate the people at the Department of Genetics, University of Leicester whose knowledge you are questioning here. I don't have time for your nonsense. I have nothing further to say to you.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:1)Name these so-called "experts". 2) Did the so-called "experts" specify where I went wrong in the citation I asked you to react to. 3)Did "they" demonstrate with empirical evidence, how I am supposed to be "depending a particular political point of view"? If so, recite the line with that specificity.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Here's what the experts say about your argument :
"My first take is that the quoted text is written with the aim of defending a particular political point of view.
quote:Are we told why this is not true? I've informed the reader as to why it is true.
Further, there are a few specific errors of fact. For example ". . . African R1*-M173 chromosomes were tested for the P25 mutation, and came up negative. . . ." is not true.
quote:Oh yeah it is. The entire European branches of hg R have this mutation, and indeed, the V88-bearing Africans. Don't tell me this is your serious effort at posing any challenge here.
And even if it WAS true, P25 is not a marker you'd want to hang any sort of argument on (see here )".
quote:This is chicken talk. You took in more than what you can chew, when you came in here with your loony Africans-be-Arabs tune.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Explorer, talk to someone who is impressed by your babbling. I'm not.
quote:...because you are incapable of defending your claptraps, you need people from the said department to do it for you. Classic looser's ploy.
Or go and debate the people at the Department of Genetics, University of Leicester whose knowledge you are questioning here.
quote:Your recurring white flag notice. What else is new from you?
I don't have time for your nonsense. I have nothing further to say to you.
quote:One of the great conclusion you ever made.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Call me what you want, but at the end of the day, I'm more Arab than you'll ever be Mazigh.
quote:
Originally posted by Whatbox:
They say they are the Arabs that first inhabited the Sahara instead of Arabia.
This isn't that far from reality.
quote:Like when i said berry said, "they say they the Arabs who inhabited the Sahara instead of Arabia":
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Oh yeah, it is. The only thing that's probably puzzling here, is why you of all people is a victim of this kind of thinking. Then again, there are posters here who've been around this block for 6 or 7+ years who never seem to get the most fundamental facts down.
quote:
Origially posted by Whatbox:
The two areas share an ancient migration history, though while the Africans heading West adapted to a desert whose inhabitants had mostly left the ones heading into Arabia likely mixed with the Asian and West Asian population there.
quote:Here you go:
De Esploror:
Explain what you mean by "a desert whose inhabitants had mostly left".
quote:- Barbara Arredi et. al. 2004, A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
"A clinal pattern of haplogroup variation like the one we observe can be expected from an east-to-west population expansion, and the finding of lower E3b2 STR variation in the west than in central North Africa (table A2 [online only]), accompanied by a substantial increase in frequency of this haplogroup, is most readily explained by expansion into virtually uninhabited terrain by populations experiencing increasing drift (Barbujani et al. 1994)."
"Thus, although Moroccan Y lineages were interpreted as having a predominantly Upper Paleolithic origin in East Africa (Bosch et al, 2001), according to our TMRCA estimates , NO populations within North African samples analyzed here have a substantial Paloelithic contribution."
"the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans"
quote:Hell no. lol!
Explorer:
I take it that you buy into this loony idea that essentially all Africans come from an Arabic eponymous ancestor after all.
quote:None of the Khoisan speaking groups are devoid of E1b1?
There is not a population in Africa today without the P2 clade.
quote:No, it's like if you asked me to list Nigerian or Senegalese lineages. E-M2 and M96 in the case of the latter would be on that list. Definitely most people would list the former.
You are here, trying to clown me and others into thinking all these guys descend from Arabs.
quote:lol, Hg E is African. An individual however might get this lineage from a random Italian or British father.
quote:This is an astonishingly silly statement to make. You scratch your head as to whether hg E is a marker of African ancestry.
Neither are they signs of direct African descent per se, but they are signs of African descent somewhere on down the line but recent (Paleantologically speaking).
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
You know what, i've gotta just flat out come out and admit i f**ked up there! Lmao. That wasn't being objective.quote:What are these two different legends the Tuareg have, Explorer. I have heard only of the origin of the ancient Tuareg in North Africa and before that in East AFrica and the pre-Islamic Yemen.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Take the Tamasheq for instance. They have at least two different legends amongst them. Yet, going by your logic, we should dismiss the legend that contradicts the mythical eponymous ancestor from Arabia. As an objective observer, I can explain why this is. Local variants of the legend likely predate the introduction of Islam. The legend involving an eponymous Arabian ancestor likely came about as a result of Islamic influence. The Tamasheq are just an example of many.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
It's not called legend. It's called genealogy. But genealogy is an Arab thing that you know nothing about.
quote:Oh that's what Awlaadberry was talkin bout.
Originally posted by dana marniche:
and the pre-Islamic Yemen.
quote:You should check out and contrib to the thread of mine just linked to above on that matter, unless you don't really have much to say.
The near 7 ft Woodabe or lesser modified Fulani I believe to be indigenous ancient people of Sahara and among the earliest neolithic North Africans with some more recent Arab and West African ancestry or lineages.
The same can not be said for the near 7 ft and often over Tuareg.
quote:I am still trying to find the Bantu thread you said you were writing about Whatbox so you'll have to help me out.
Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Oh that's what Awlaadberry was talkin bout.
Originally posted by dana marniche:
and the pre-Islamic Yemen.
quote:You should check out and contrib to the thread of mine just linked to above on that matter, unless you don't really have much to say.
The near 7 ft Woodabe or lesser modified Fulani I believe to be indigenous ancient people of Sahara and among the earliest neolithic North Africans with some more recent Arab and West African ancestry or lineages.
The same can not be said for the near 7 ft and often over Tuareg.
quote:Arredi et al.'s hypothesis concerning few humans is questionable, in that there is a long paleontological record of human occupation of the Maghreb, from the Middle Paleolithic through to the Holocene. It is hard to determine how much impact the aridity had on the preexisting occupants of the Maghreb, but its possible during the height Ogolian, they either took refuge in the shrub areas of the far west corner of the coastal north and/or moved eastward, and finally into the "Near East". It is safe to assume that the population densities of the Saharan belt declined from what would have been there during the wet phases, before the Ogolian aridity and following the recession of the aridity. There must have been communities living in the Maghreb though, because contemporary Maghrebi populations retain markers of Upper Paleolithic demographic processes, like say, hg M1 and U6, while the likes of hg A and E-M33 markers were carried in male communities in the west-central Saharan, including the coastal areas of Maghreb.
Origially posted by Whatbox:
The two areas share an ancient migration history, though while the Africans heading West adapted to a desert whose inhabitants had mostly left the ones heading into Arabia likely mixed with the Asian and West Asian population there.
quote:Here you go:
De Esploror:
Explain what you mean by "a desert whose inhabitants had mostly left".
quote:- Barbara Arredi et. al. 2004, A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
"A clinal pattern of haplogroup variation like the one we observe can be expected from an east-to-west population expansion, and the finding of lower E3b2 STR variation in the west than in central North Africa (table A2 [online only]), accompanied by a substantial increase in frequency of this haplogroup, is most readily explained by expansion into virtually uninhabited terrain by populations experiencing increasing drift (Barbujani et al. 1994)."
"Thus, although Moroccan Y lineages were interpreted as having a predominantly Upper Paleolithic origin in East Africa (Bosch et al, 2001), according to our TMRCA estimates , NO populations within North African samples analyzed here have a substantial Paloelithic contribution."
"the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans"
As far as the hiatused, I was referring to the people who lived in what is now Sahara desert during a North African Wet phase about 8kya and could have specified or implied the Western and Central ends. Even in the Eastern end where "Berber" and "Egyptian" ancestral populations resided there is evidence of cultures moving South (when not clinging to or fighting over the Nile) with the dessication of the green in the Sahara.
In fact i have an entire thread peripherally about this very topic of the wet-phase Sahara.
quote:Good, because you got me a bit concerned there for a minute.
quote:Hell no. lol!
Explorer:
I take it that you buy into this loony idea that essentially all Africans come from an Arabic eponymous ancestor after all.
quote:Do you know of any KhoiSan speaking population that does not have hg E1b1, or yet, hg E? If so, which one(s)?
quote:None of the Khoisan speaking groups are devoid of E1b1?
There is not a population in Africa today without the P2 clade.
quote:Are you kidding me? I made a case for this very thing here long before Cruciani & co. did. I remember that there were a few naysayers when I brought it to attention.
Yet it appears even M2 has an East African origin if you've paid any attention to Cruciani and his new phylogenetic changes in terms of the whole PN2 Clade.
quote:Okay then.
lol, Hg E is African. An individual however might get this lineage from a random Italian or British father.
It's still a sign of African ancestry, basically with that post i was just pussifying everything and dumbing it down, regurgitating sh!t kinda like how Obama does in his speeches, S.O.Y. Keita does in his interpretation of data, or birds do to feed their young.
I've worked with struggling people and like to bridge communication gaps. I like to speak other peoples languages.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Arabs are NOT native to Africa.
quote:Actually, I said "at least" two different legends. I was referring to the fact that there are patrilineal legends, which seem to be the influence of Islam on the Kel Tamasheq. For instance, there is a legend involving an eponymous ancestor by the name of Berr ibn Baranes and another by the name of Berr ibn Botr. This is not all: there are legends that connect them with Goliath, which seems to link them primarily to Old testament biblical concerns, as opposed to Islam. There is yet another biblical connection, in the person of Ham, as the eponymous ancestor. These aside, Tamasheq legends are generally matrilineal in orientation, with female eponymous ancestors rather than male ones. Courtesy of Richard L. Smith, a faction of the Sanhaja Tamazight group, the Mulaththamun, proclaimed to have descended from a female eponymous ancestor by the name of Tazakkat (Tizki), meaning "the lame". This is the case, notwithstanding Arab genealogical legend places the Sanhaja under the aforementioned eponymous ancestor, Baranes. This is only one version; another legend ascribes a different matrilineal ancestry to the Kel Tamasheq in general, going by the name of Tin Hinan, of the Kel Ahaggar. The Lamtuna on the other hand, proclaim a female eponymous ancestor by the name of Lamtuna. Note how legends vary across Tamasheq and other Saharan/Sahelian Tamazight-speaking groups. Notice how some legends are patrilineal, while others are matrilineal. The matrilineal orientation looks to be the original Tamasheq or Imazighen tradition, and how do I know this? 1) It is patrilineal like in the Arabic told legends. 2)Linguistic evidence, per Richard L. Smith:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
What are these two different legends the Tuareg have, Explorer. I have heard only of the origin of the ancient Tuareg in North Africa and before that in East AFrica and the pre-Islamic Yemen.
quote:West African ancestry is NOT secondary in the Fulani; it is in fact the CORE ancestry.
The near 7 ft Woodabe or lesser modified Fulani I believe to be indigenous ancient people of Sahara and among the earliest neolithic North Africans with some more recent Arab and West African ancestry or lineages.
quote:The Tamasheq ("Tuaregs") ultimately have ancestry in eastern Africa, but their ethnogenesis occurred in central-western Africa, and in fact, their maternal gene pool is western African in the main. The Libyan ones are of course, relatively outlier, but they still share genealogical ties to western African counterparts.
The same can not be said for the near 7 ft and often over Tuareg.
quote:You are correct Amazigh Mahri or Sabaean are African i.e. semitic dialects that predate the development of teh Arabic dialects. The name "Berber" itself in early times only designates the peoples of the Eritrean coasts who were at the time one and the same people. Thus to say the Tuareg were not Berber originally is also wrong. Arabi writings and Berber lends always designate two separate waves of peoples from the region. Some of the Tuareg appear to have been identifiable as South Arabia at the time of Al Yaqubi who calls the Hawara them Ailanab in his words because they extended to the Gulf of Ailah during the time their ancestors ruled Egypt (a reference to the Amalekites).
Originally posted by Mazigh:
Ans as far as I know the so-called Himyarite arabs were mehric, a semitic language, but not arabic.
quote:Ancient Arabic.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
Ans as far as I know the so-called Himyarite arabs were mehric, a semitic language, but not arabic.
quote:You speak English, right? Are you from England?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You got it twisted. Arabs, without education thereof, can't get themselves to understand Tamazight. The language is foreign to them, and reasonably so, since there is no Tamazight language, or even modal Imazighen marker to be found anywhere in Yemen.
quote:Mazigh I want to ask what Berber tribe are you from since you are calling yourself an African. That isn't Arab ideology its early Berber ideology told to the Romans and finally the various Middle Eastern historians of the Arabs - an African affiliated people now almost extinct.
Originally posted by Mazigh:
AwlaadBerry is himself a Black african (eventually from sudan) and got a great dosis of arab ideology. He found his lost sources in mythical nonsens of "Ifriqish who conquered Ifriqya", a legandary hero like hercules. While he calls africa "arika" because he was not happt with the fact that africa was already in use when the arabs came to africa (tunesia), and now he suppose that this "ifriqish" is arab, forgetting that the name is from "Afer" and got the forme "africa" by the latins, and the name is given by the romans to modern tunesia after conquering Carthago.
He didn't tell as when did this Ifriqish conquered africa, and how? and what are archeological sources and who are those peoples who recoreded this.
A story like the stories of amon, zeus, hercules, atlas.... this is the only "history" (that is even invented in medieval times) which can support his inventions.
But after all, awlaadberry is himself not arab. He is arabized since he is a black like the arabized people of Sudan. Which he calls the pure arabs, contrary to the arabs of arabia who are fake arabs. A common view with afrocentrists but with arabcentric taste.
quote:Very good point i meant to make earlier and ended up forgetting about entirely.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
A folk's tribal geneaology, though couched in lineage terms,
doesn't necessarily correspond to modern/Euro/American/
western ideas of biological genetic kinship relation. And I
might add, with absolutely no apology, nor does it need to.
quote:It's true that as far as human beings are concerned Africa reaches into much of Asia but i would not call any of those genetic lineages "Arab". E is definitely African. Unless you believe in an African origin for Arabs.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
There is no contradiction between these people's assertion of their Arab origin and the genes that they carry because as I have said previously, E, R, and J are ALL Arab haplogroups.
http://www.dnaarab.com/
quote:Very, very good point!
Originally posted by Whatbox:
On the subject of continents lately i've been less gung-ho over the African & Asian distinction in an anthropological context especially when dealing with things ancient. Just as the Sahara was never a barrier neither does the Suez Canal or concept of an "African - Asian border" appear to have been in ancient times. [/QB]
quote:Again:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
OK. Let us look at R first.
Q: Between continental Africa and the Arabian
Peninsula, where is its highest frequency?
A: Lake Tschad region. Absent in SW Arabian Peninsula
Q: Which clade of R is it and where is it in Arabia?
A: R-V88 is absent in Yemen, Oman, Kuwait and SE Saudi.
Q: Which peoples have its highest frequencies
and are they Muslim or claim Arab antecedents?
A:96% Ouldeme; non-Muslim, no Arab claims
__88% Mafa; majority non-Muslim, no Arab claims
__82% Mada; half are non-Muslim, no Arab claims
__78% Guiziga; non-Muslim, no Arab claims.
Q: When did R (supposedly) back migrate to
Africa and did Arabs or Islam exist then?
A: 12,300BCE-9,600BCE;
9000 years before Arabs 10,000 years before Islam.
Q: What is the birth age and birthplace of R-V88?
A: (Proposed) 7200BCE-3600BCE in the central Sahara.
R-V88 serves as no genetic proof of Arab paternity.
Quite the opposite, R-V88 is African specific. The
infinitesimal frequency of its occurence in western
Asia points to its less than slight presence is due
to African introduction.
Maps from Chiaronia (2009) corrected supplement.
I find nothing in your Arabic source forum مواضيع المنتدى : السلالة R
that isn't based on English language population genetics reports.
And mind you, it's nothing more than a discussion forum just like ours.
quote:
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug;18(8):915-23. Epub 2010 Mar 17.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel.
Pereira L, Cerný V, Cerezo M, Silva NM, Hájek M, Vasíková A, Kujanová M, Brdicka R, Salas A.
Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (IPATIMUP), Porto, Portugal.
Abstract
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than approximately 9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening approximately 10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at approximately 6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
PMID: 20234393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]PMCID: PMC2987384 [Available on 2011/8/1]
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 17 March 2010; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.21."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234393?dopt=AbstractPlus
quote:"No Arab claims" DOESN'T mean not of Arab origin.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Q: Which peoples have its highest frequencies
and are they Muslim or claim Arab antecedents?
A:96% Ouldeme; non-Muslim, no Arab claims
__88% Mafa; majority non-Muslim, no Arab claims
__82% Mada; half are non-Muslim, no Arab claims
__78% Guiziga; non-Muslim, no Arab claims.
quote:awlaadberry is just a copy & paste artist, and has no concept of genetics; this is why every time someone crushes what is given in his/her copy & paste, he/she is unable to reply, other than to helplessly recite the same rebutted material in a repetitive loop.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Get serious. What does R1a1 have to do with R-V88?
I mean this is not even good enthusiast straw grasping.
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
quote:I'm speaking about the different Rs in Arabia. I never said that R1a1 was R1b1a v88. What are you talking about???
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Get serious. What does R1a1 have to do with R-V88?
I mean this is not even good enthusiast straw grasping.
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:I'm speaking about the different Rs in Arabia. I never said that R1a1 was R1b1a v88. What are you talking about???
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Get serious. What does R1a1 have to do with R-V88?
I mean this is not even good enthusiast straw grasping.
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
quote:I never claimed to be a geneticist, but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East. And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself. [/QB]
quote:No. Europeans must be Africans, right Explorer? Like the people of Cameroon. And don't forget that Europeans carry J1, too.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Europeans must be Arabs eh, awlaadberry? They carry R1b.
quote:Better yet, I know - EVERYBODY is African.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:No. Europeans must be Africans, right Explorer? Like the people of Cameroon. And don't forget that Europeans carry J1, too.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Europeans must be Arabs eh, awlaadberry? They carry R1b.
quote:It is your own word that hg R is an Arab haplogroup. You have labeled Africans in all directions as "Arabs" on the account of having "Arab haplogroups". Why are Europeans an exception to this funny rule of your's?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:No.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Europeans must be Arabs eh, awlaadberry? They carry R1b.
quote:This is a figment of your imagination.
Europeans must be Africans, right Explorer?
quote:So, you are not convinced that Cameroon is in Africa? And you've changed your mind in a few seconds, that they are back to being Arabs, on the account of J1?
Like the people of Cameroon. And don't forget that Europeans carry J1, too.
quote:Based on your logic, they might as well be. And in fact, that would make a far better case than your rule vis-a-vis "Arab haplogroups".
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Better yet, I know - EVERYBODY is African.
quote:And you can go to the Arab tribes of Arabia who carry these markers and tell them that you, Explorer, hereby declare that they are not of Arab origin. And what I said to AlTakruri applies to you, too. Please see above.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
To awlaadberry, "so and so marker is in Arabia" translates into only one thing: "it is an Arab marker"; it doesn't matter what is actually being said as to why it is there. [/QB]
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
quote:So, I have to have approval of some Arab tribes of Arabia, before I assign an origin to a marker? And I had better make sure I don't make a mistake of mislabeling a marker "non-Arab"?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
And you can go to the Arab tribes of Arabia who carry these markers and tell them that you, Explorer, hereby declare that they are not of Arab origin. And what I said to AlTakruri applies to you, too. Please see above.
quote:Nothing about Arabs there Mr. Berry.
We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin,
quote:
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:I never claimed to be a geneticist, but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East. And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that? [/QB]
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
quote:The article you site is simply the standard form of academic and eurocentric gibberish that has been put forward to establish a "Eurasian" origin for North African populations. The reality is that the lineages that these authors claim as Eurasian are actually African. Hence, their claim should be treated with skepticism. The fact remains that the Sahara has ALWAYS been populated by black African pastoral nomads since many thousands of years ago. These attempts to derive a Eurasian origin for such populations are simply attempts to downplay the African origins of such populations and to put them in a Eurasian one.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug;18(8):915-23. Epub 2010 Mar 17.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel.
Pereira L, Cerný V, Cerezo M, Silva NM, Hájek M, Vasíková A, Kujanová M, Brdicka R, Salas A.
Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (IPATIMUP), Porto, Portugal.
Abstract
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than approximately 9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening approximately 10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at approximately 6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
PMID: 20234393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]PMCID: PMC2987384 [Available on 2011/8/1]
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 17 March 2010; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.21."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234393?dopt=AbstractPlus
quote:Then I take it that you are an infidel, and not a Muslim, as your Allah is not the one and almighty after all, according to you.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
That's right.
quote:I don't care to read your book. Answer me here and now, if you can.
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
quote:How do you know I don't debate them? Another option, invite them to come and debate here. Even better, why can't you hold on your own, even with material from the so-called "experts"?
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert
quote:This is a figment of your imagination, and I have proven it, with your lack of feedback to explain why they are very rare to absent in "West Asia".
The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin
quote:And you don't, even though you cite them?
and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
quote:On what grounds?
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East.
quote:I got the news from you, not Wells; why don't you explain what you understand, and how you intend to defend them, and if you need Mr. Wells to hold your hand in a debate on the issue, feel free to invite him.
Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
quote:Where does what you just quoted say that it isn't from the Near East??? Did he say this or not:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:Nothing about Arabs there Mr. Berry.
We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin,
quote:You have serious issues, dude. And btw, "That's right" means that's right I'm not a geneticist - fool! What does that have to do with the Oneness of Allah???
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Then I take it that you are an infidel, and not a Muslim, as your Allah is not the one and almighty after all, according to you.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
That's right.
quote:I don't care to read your book. Answer me here and now, if you can.
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
quote:How do you know I don't debate them? Another option, invite them to come and debate here. Even better, why can't you hold on your own, even with material from the so-called "experts"?
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert
quote:This is a figment of your imagination, and I have proven it, with your lack of feedback to explain why they are very rare to absent in "West Asia".
The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin
quote:And you don't, even though you cite them?
and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
quote:On what grounds?
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East.
quote:I got the news from you, not Wells; why don't you explain what you understand, and how you intend to defend them, and if you need Mr. Wells to hold your hand in a debate on the issue, feel free to invite him.
Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
quote:You can say that again: I have serious issues with you, specifically your incompetency and grotesquely false sense of shrewdness.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You have serious issues, dude.
quote:You are the fool, for not understanding what you were asked, i.e. the supposed infallibility of your so-called "experts" and treating them like Gods.
And btw, "That's right" means that's right I'm not a geneticist - fool! What does that have to do with the Oneness of Allah???
quote:So the ancestors of the Hausa are just uneducated, ignorant fools, right? No one has any sense unless he/she believes the BS you are barking, right?
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Does any educated Hausa child believe in a Sarki
snake or Bayajida siring the entire Hausa people?
quote:Your rebuttal means nothing to me and I've shown you what the experts say about your rebuttal. I'm out... No time for this posturing.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
awlaadberry, in light of your 1000th+ copy & paste of that abstract, what you do make of this:
About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa. The large majority of R1b chromosomes from western Eurasia carried, as expected, the M269 mutation; only five R-V88 chromosomes were observed, three of which carried distinctive mutations (M18, V35, and V7). The rare R1b chromosomes observed in Asia were either R-M73 or R-M269. The R-P25* paragroup was only found in five subjects from Europe (3), western Asia (1), and eastern Asia (1) (Table 1).
This element was featured in my rebuttal to the abstract that you were too nervous to address.
quote:
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:So the ancestors of the Hausa are just uneducated, ignorant fools, right. No one has any sense unless he/she believes the BS you are barking, right?
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Does any educated Hausa child believe in a Sarki
snake or Bayajida siring the entire Hausa people?
quote:dumbass, the piece you are looking at comes from the authors you were citing. I also mentioned the fact in my rebuttal which you were too much of a wuss to confront. What do you make of what your own source is saying here, moron?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Your rebuttal means nothing to me
Originally posted by The Explorer:
awlaadberry, in light of your 1000th+ copy & paste of that abstract, what you do make of this:
About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa. The large majority of R1b chromosomes from western Eurasia carried, as expected, the M269 mutation; only five R-V88 chromosomes were observed, three of which carried distinctive mutations (M18, V35, and V7). The rare R1b chromosomes observed in Asia were either R-M73 or R-M269. The R-P25* paragroup was only found in five subjects from Europe (3), western Asia (1), and eastern Asia (1) (Table 1).
This element was featured in my rebuttal to the abstract that you were too nervous to address.
quote:You never answered my queries on the identities of these "experts" and what they supposedly did to discredit me. Do you really feel empowered by this weak showing?
and I've shown you what the experts say about your rebuttal. I'm out... No time for this posturing.
quote:The funny thing is that even in these studies that ultimately support the OBVIOUS, you still have a bunch of double talk implying that somehow these aren't really Africans. Hence:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
To supplement DougM, even when certain African
strains are unavoidable to admit the standard
Eurocentric set of explanations are made for them.
Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A genetic survey of their paternal heritage
Claudio Ottoni1,2,3,4,*, Maarten H.D. Larmuseau1,3,5, Nancy Vanderheyden1, Cristina Martínez-Labarga4, Giuseppina Primativo4, Gianfranco Biondi6, Ronny Decorte1,3, Olga Rickards4
Article first published online: 10 FEB 2011
DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.21473
Abstract
Recent genetic studies of the Tuareg have begun to uncover the origin of this semi-nomadic northwest African people and their relationship with African populations. For centuries they were caravan traders plying the trade routes between the Mediterranean coast and south-Saharan Africa. Their origin most likely coincides with the fall of the Garamantes who inhabited the Fezzan (Libya) between the 1st millennium BC and the 5th century AD. In this study we report novel data on the Y-chromosome variation in the Libyan Tuareg from Al Awaynat and Tahala, two villages in Fezzan, whose maternal genetic pool was previously characterized. High-resolution investigation of 37 Y-chromosome STR loci and analysis of 35 bi-allelic markers in 47 individuals revealed a predominant northwest African component (E-M81, haplogroup E1b1b1b) which likely originated in the second half of the Holocene in the same ancestral population that contributed to the maternal pool of the Libyan Tuareg. A significant paternal contribution from south-Saharan Africa (E-U175, haplogroup E1b1a8) was also detected, which may likely be due to recent secondary introduction, possibly through slavery practices or fusion between different tribal groups. The difference in haplogroup composition between the villages of Al Awaynat and Tahala suggests that founder effects and drift played a significant role in shaping the genetic pool of the Libyan Tuareg. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2011. © 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Bottomline: both studies show African E-M81 predominates.
quote:Duh. I am waiting for a study that tries to "uncover the origin of these Northeast/Northwest/SouthEast/Southwest (take your pick) European people and their relationship to Europeans" or "uncover the origin of these Northeast/Northwest/Southeast/Southwest Asian people and their relationship to Asians".....
Recent genetic studies of the Tuareg have begun to uncover the origin of this semi-nomadic northwest African people and their relationship with African populations.
quote:Irrelevant questions.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
awlaadberry, explain these things to me:
1)Why is hg E far more diverse in Africa vs. Arabia?
2)Why are the major clades of YAP+ [hg E and hg D] diverse in two different areas, that is NOT Arabia? Why is hg D in east Asia instead of Arabia? [/QB]
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Of course nose width is not valid factor of ethnic descent
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, picture spamming is another weak argument technique
quote:It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Why do you always ask stupid questions. Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about. Plus I assume they have admixture due to their fair skin you idiot. Unless you now want to say fair-skin is indigenous to not only Arabia but Africa.
Watch the white Scottish idiot (Argay) posing as black person. Ask more dumb questions or make trollish remarks.
More Bedouin:
http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/31488/bedouin.jpg
http://www.boker.org.il/meida/negev/negpics/bedouin1big.jpg
quote:?????
Originally posted by Doug M:
It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
quote:Great.
Originally posted by Explorer [i]About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:What is he babbling?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Interesting pictures Doug. Even the fair-skinned Bedouin have features that are east African suggesting admixture. Also, the Negev desert was known in Biblical times as the Land of Cushim (blacks) to the Hebrews and later Israelites.
quote:Yes Meri Mary Jayhooti
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^... Plus I assume they have admixture due to their fair skin you idiot. Unless you now want to say fair-skin is indigenous to not only Arabia but Africa.
.....
quote:As an example, compare the woman above to these:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Why do you always ask stupid questions. Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about. Plus I assume they have admixture due to their fair skin you idiot. Unless you now want to say fair-skin is indigenous to not only Arabia but Africa.
Watch the white Scottish idiot (Argay) posing as black person. Ask more dumb questions or make trollish remarks.
More Bedouin:
http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/31488/bedouin.jpg
http://www.boker.org.il/meida/negev/negpics/bedouin1big.jpg
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
Bedouin woman doing a sword dance:
http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/IH171223.html
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
quote:What you just said sounds so silly. You can't even tell me what an "African" is and here you go labeling everyone "African". Based on what, I have no idea. I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Fulani, for example, have one common ancestor or not?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
The specific things you claimed have been shown to be blatantly false:
1) Tuaregs are Arabs. WRONG.
2) Hausa are Arabs. WRONG.
3) The Sahara as originally populated by Arabs. WRONG.
All of these things you claim have been refuted. Nobody said that people haven't been crossing between Africa and Arabia. In fact the exact opposite is true, Africans have been crossing into Arabia and back since the first humans left Africa. However, that does not mean that such back and forth movements means that any large populations in Africa ORIGINATES in Arabia.
What you don't understand is that Arab society as a patrilineal society bases lineage on a paternal ancestor. Therefore ONE Arab father among a sea of Africans makes the group Arab according to this tradition. That is why so many clans in and around Arabia have names based on an eponymous ancestor. This is taught to the children and they pass it on to their children and that is how they come to identify as Arab whether they have any percentage of Arab blood or not. It is for that reason that so many Sudanese are running around claiming to be Arab and they are just as close to Arabia as anyone. Yet only an idiot would think that these black folks have anything more than a small percentage of Arab blood or that Sudanese originate in Arabia.
But it is obvious that one drop of Arab blood in a sea of Africans is not going to turn Africans into Arabs. So when you read these Arab historians you must understand that this is what they are writing based on. Those legends and folk traditions have nothing to do with the biological fact that most Africans in Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Sahara are biologically African with SOME small parts having Arab blood.
quote:
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
None of these populations are Arab/Eurasian. Tishkoff et al. 2009 and 2010, the most accurate (2009) autosomal study on African and African Diaspora populations debunks any such claims. No need to continue to argue about it...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf
Baggara "Arabs", i.e. Sudanese Arabs are essentially 100% African. Indicating cultural influence, not genetic.
They are: 30.2% Chadic Saharan, 22.7% Niger-Kordofanians, 18.7% Cushitic, 9.2% Fulani, and 9.1% Nilo-Saharan. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Nigeria are: 71.1% Niger-Kordofanian, 8.6% Chadic Saharan, and 5.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Cameroon are: 59.3% Niger-Kordofanian, 18.2% Chadic Saharan, and 6.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Fulani are: 38.23% Fulani, 27.03% Niger-Kordofanian, 16.92% Chadic Saharan, and 6.39% Cushitic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Ouldeme who are 95.5% R1b are: 58.8% Chadic Saharan and 31.1% Niger-Kordofanian. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
quote:And what are you??? While you are giving people names for themselves as if they don't know who they are, give yourself a name. What are you?
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
None of these populations are Arab/Eurasian. Tishkoff et al. 2009 and 2010, the most accurate (2009) autosomal study on African and African Diaspora populations debunks any such claims. No need to continue to argue about it...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf
Baggara "Arabs", i.e. Sudanese Arabs are essentially 100% African. Indicating cultural influence, not genetic.
They are: 30.2% Chadic Saharan, 22.7% Niger-Kordofanians, 18.7% Cushitic, 9.2% Fulani, and 9.1% Nilo-Saharan. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Nigeria are: 71.1% Niger-Kordofanian, 8.6% Chadic Saharan, and 5.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Cameroon are: 59.3% Niger-Kordofanian, 18.2% Chadic Saharan, and 6.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Fulani are: 38.23% Fulani, 27.03% Niger-Kordofanian, 16.92% Chadic Saharan, and 6.39% Cushitic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Ouldeme who are 95.5% R1b are: 58.8% Chadic Saharan and 31.1% Niger-Kordofanian. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
quote:Don't play childish games and throw tantrums because you cannot support yourself.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What you just said sounds so silly. You can't even tell me what an "African" is and here you go labeling everyone "African". Based on what, I have no idea. I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Fulani, for example, have one common ancestor or not?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
The specific things you claimed have been shown to be blatantly false:
1) Tuaregs are Arabs. WRONG.
2) Hausa are Arabs. WRONG.
3) The Sahara as originally populated by Arabs. WRONG.
All of these things you claim have been refuted. Nobody said that people haven't been crossing between Africa and Arabia. In fact the exact opposite is true, Africans have been crossing into Arabia and back since the first humans left Africa. However, that does not mean that such back and forth movements means that any large populations in Africa ORIGINATES in Arabia.
What you don't understand is that Arab society as a patrilineal society bases lineage on a paternal ancestor. Therefore ONE Arab father among a sea of Africans makes the group Arab according to this tradition. That is why so many clans in and around Arabia have names based on an eponymous ancestor. This is taught to the children and they pass it on to their children and that is how they come to identify as Arab whether they have any percentage of Arab blood or not. It is for that reason that so many Sudanese are running around claiming to be Arab and they are just as close to Arabia as anyone. Yet only an idiot would think that these black folks have anything more than a small percentage of Arab blood or that Sudanese originate in Arabia.
But it is obvious that one drop of Arab blood in a sea of Africans is not going to turn Africans into Arabs. So when you read these Arab historians you must understand that this is what they are writing based on. Those legends and folk traditions have nothing to do with the biological fact that most Africans in Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Sahara are biologically African with SOME small parts having Arab blood.
quote:How have you shown that the Hausa and the Tuareg aren't of Arab origin? And how are the Fulani biologically not Arab? How is an Arab biologically? And what games are you referring to?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Don't play childish games and throw tantrums because you cannot support yourself.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What you just said sounds so silly. You can't even tell me what an "African" is and here you go labeling everyone "African". Based on what, I have no idea. I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Fulani, for example, have one common ancestor or not?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
The specific things you claimed have been shown to be blatantly false:
1) Tuaregs are Arabs. WRONG.
2) Hausa are Arabs. WRONG.
3) The Sahara as originally populated by Arabs. WRONG.
All of these things you claim have been refuted. Nobody said that people haven't been crossing between Africa and Arabia. In fact the exact opposite is true, Africans have been crossing into Arabia and back since the first humans left Africa. However, that does not mean that such back and forth movements means that any large populations in Africa ORIGINATES in Arabia.
What you don't understand is that Arab society as a patrilineal society bases lineage on a paternal ancestor. Therefore ONE Arab father among a sea of Africans makes the group Arab according to this tradition. That is why so many clans in and around Arabia have names based on an eponymous ancestor. This is taught to the children and they pass it on to their children and that is how they come to identify as Arab whether they have any percentage of Arab blood or not. It is for that reason that so many Sudanese are running around claiming to be Arab and they are just as close to Arabia as anyone. Yet only an idiot would think that these black folks have anything more than a small percentage of Arab blood or that Sudanese originate in Arabia.
But it is obvious that one drop of Arab blood in a sea of Africans is not going to turn Africans into Arabs. So when you read these Arab historians you must understand that this is what they are writing based on. Those legends and folk traditions have nothing to do with the biological fact that most Africans in Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Sahara are biologically African with SOME small parts having Arab blood.
You said that these people were Arabs and have been shown wrong. Now you want to talk about identity and a common ancestor like that changes anything when it doesn't. The Fulani are primarily African biologically not Arab or anything else. We aren't talking social identity and you know it as it is you who have been claiming a Arab origin for these folks, not in terms of identity but biologically. Biology and folk traditions are two different things and that is the point I am trying to make. A Sudanese can jump up and down all day and say he is Arab, but biologically that wont change any of the facts that his blood primarily originates in Africa and not Arabia.
quote:How can you argue something if you don't know what it is?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:How have you shown that the Hausa and the Tuareg aren't of Arab origin? And how are the Fulani biologically not Arab? How is an Arab biologically? And what games are you referring to?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Don't play childish games and throw tantrums because you cannot support yourself.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What you just said sounds so silly. You can't even tell me what an "African" is and here you go labeling everyone "African". Based on what, I have no idea. I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Fulani, for example, have one common ancestor or not?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
The specific things you claimed have been shown to be blatantly false:
1) Tuaregs are Arabs. WRONG.
2) Hausa are Arabs. WRONG.
3) The Sahara as originally populated by Arabs. WRONG.
All of these things you claim have been refuted. Nobody said that people haven't been crossing between Africa and Arabia. In fact the exact opposite is true, Africans have been crossing into Arabia and back since the first humans left Africa. However, that does not mean that such back and forth movements means that any large populations in Africa ORIGINATES in Arabia.
What you don't understand is that Arab society as a patrilineal society bases lineage on a paternal ancestor. Therefore ONE Arab father among a sea of Africans makes the group Arab according to this tradition. That is why so many clans in and around Arabia have names based on an eponymous ancestor. This is taught to the children and they pass it on to their children and that is how they come to identify as Arab whether they have any percentage of Arab blood or not. It is for that reason that so many Sudanese are running around claiming to be Arab and they are just as close to Arabia as anyone. Yet only an idiot would think that these black folks have anything more than a small percentage of Arab blood or that Sudanese originate in Arabia.
But it is obvious that one drop of Arab blood in a sea of Africans is not going to turn Africans into Arabs. So when you read these Arab historians you must understand that this is what they are writing based on. Those legends and folk traditions have nothing to do with the biological fact that most Africans in Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Sahara are biologically African with SOME small parts having Arab blood.
You said that these people were Arabs and have been shown wrong. Now you want to talk about identity and a common ancestor like that changes anything when it doesn't. The Fulani are primarily African biologically not Arab or anything else. We aren't talking social identity and you know it as it is you who have been claiming a Arab origin for these folks, not in terms of identity but biologically. Biology and folk traditions are two different things and that is the point I am trying to make. A Sudanese can jump up and down all day and say he is Arab, but biologically that wont change any of the facts that his blood primarily originates in Africa and not Arabia.
quote:What I don't know is how you figure the Fulani aren't Arabs biologically. Do you know why you say they aren't Arabs biologically?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:How can you argue something if you don't know what it is?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:How have you shown that the Hausa and the Tuareg aren't of Arab origin? And how are the Fulani biologically not Arab? How is an Arab biologically? And what games are you referring to?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Don't play childish games and throw tantrums because you cannot support yourself.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What you just said sounds so silly. You can't even tell me what an "African" is and here you go labeling everyone "African". Based on what, I have no idea. I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Fulani, for example, have one common ancestor or not?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
The specific things you claimed have been shown to be blatantly false:
1) Tuaregs are Arabs. WRONG.
2) Hausa are Arabs. WRONG.
3) The Sahara as originally populated by Arabs. WRONG.
All of these things you claim have been refuted. Nobody said that people haven't been crossing between Africa and Arabia. In fact the exact opposite is true, Africans have been crossing into Arabia and back since the first humans left Africa. However, that does not mean that such back and forth movements means that any large populations in Africa ORIGINATES in Arabia.
What you don't understand is that Arab society as a patrilineal society bases lineage on a paternal ancestor. Therefore ONE Arab father among a sea of Africans makes the group Arab according to this tradition. That is why so many clans in and around Arabia have names based on an eponymous ancestor. This is taught to the children and they pass it on to their children and that is how they come to identify as Arab whether they have any percentage of Arab blood or not. It is for that reason that so many Sudanese are running around claiming to be Arab and they are just as close to Arabia as anyone. Yet only an idiot would think that these black folks have anything more than a small percentage of Arab blood or that Sudanese originate in Arabia.
But it is obvious that one drop of Arab blood in a sea of Africans is not going to turn Africans into Arabs. So when you read these Arab historians you must understand that this is what they are writing based on. Those legends and folk traditions have nothing to do with the biological fact that most Africans in Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Sahara are biologically African with SOME small parts having Arab blood.
You said that these people were Arabs and have been shown wrong. Now you want to talk about identity and a common ancestor like that changes anything when it doesn't. The Fulani are primarily African biologically not Arab or anything else. We aren't talking social identity and you know it as it is you who have been claiming a Arab origin for these folks, not in terms of identity but biologically. Biology and folk traditions are two different things and that is the point I am trying to make. A Sudanese can jump up and down all day and say he is Arab, but biologically that wont change any of the facts that his blood primarily originates in Africa and not Arabia.
If you don't know what biology is then there is n further argument. You have admitted you don't know what you are talking about.
quote:Stop being petty. If you don't know what Africa is there is no point of discussion.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What I don't know is how you figure the Fulani aren't Arabs biologically. Do you know why you say they aren't Arabs biologically?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:How can you argue something if you don't know what it is?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:How have you shown that the Hausa and the Tuareg aren't of Arab origin? And how are the Fulani biologically not Arab? How is an Arab biologically? And what games are you referring to?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Don't play childish games and throw tantrums because you cannot support yourself.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What you just said sounds so silly. You can't even tell me what an "African" is and here you go labeling everyone "African". Based on what, I have no idea. I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Fulani, for example, have one common ancestor or not?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Mr Berry you are making generalizations and straw men.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Exactly Lion! They are being very mischievous. What I can't understand is why it's so hard for them to imagine these people being from the Arabian Peninsula, which is merely a hop, skip, and jump away. Notice how they can accept people in the western part of what they call a separate continent called "Africa" being from anywhere on the "continent" even if it's all the way across the "continent" in Egypt, but they can't accept anyone on the "continent" being originally from anywhere east of what they call a separate continent called "Africa".
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Awlaad
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I never claimed to be a geneticist
quote:...which is why it is rare to absent there?
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
quote:Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
quote:You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
Fast forward this to 4:30.
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Why are they making this difference beween the two areas as if the two sides are off limits to each other? Do they realize that the Arabs traveled regularly from the Arabian Peninsula to the area that they call "Africa"? Do they realize that the area that they call "Africa" is the first place that the Muslims immigrated to when they were being persecuted on the Arabian Peninsula? Do they realize that this place that they immigrated to was not a foreign land to them?
Isn't it silly for someone to believe that these are two separate places and two separate people:
It is reported by Al-Tabari in his book Tarikh Al-Rusul Wa Al-Muluk that those Companions of the Prophet who performed the First Immigration to Abyssinia - 11 men and 4 women - left Mecca secretly until they reached a place near Jeddah called Al-Sha'abia. There they found two ships belonging to traders and they were charged 1/2 dinar to be taken to Abyssinia.
It is also reported that Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari and around 50 men from the Ash'ar tribe of the Yemen immigrating to the Prophet (saws)in Medina from Yemen by ship when a strong wind forced their ship to the coast of Abyssinia. There in Abyssinia, they (Abu Musa and the other Ash'ari men) joined Jaafar ibn Abi Talib and the others, who had earlier immigrated to Abyssinia.
These two events are just examples of how familiar and accessible the area called "Africa" was to the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
The specific things you claimed have been shown to be blatantly false:
1) Tuaregs are Arabs. WRONG.
2) Hausa are Arabs. WRONG.
3) The Sahara as originally populated by Arabs. WRONG.
All of these things you claim have been refuted. Nobody said that people haven't been crossing between Africa and Arabia. In fact the exact opposite is true, Africans have been crossing into Arabia and back since the first humans left Africa. However, that does not mean that such back and forth movements means that any large populations in Africa ORIGINATES in Arabia.
What you don't understand is that Arab society as a patrilineal society bases lineage on a paternal ancestor. Therefore ONE Arab father among a sea of Africans makes the group Arab according to this tradition. That is why so many clans in and around Arabia have names based on an eponymous ancestor. This is taught to the children and they pass it on to their children and that is how they come to identify as Arab whether they have any percentage of Arab blood or not. It is for that reason that so many Sudanese are running around claiming to be Arab and they are just as close to Arabia as anyone. Yet only an idiot would think that these black folks have anything more than a small percentage of Arab blood or that Sudanese originate in Arabia.
But it is obvious that one drop of Arab blood in a sea of Africans is not going to turn Africans into Arabs. So when you read these Arab historians you must understand that this is what they are writing based on. Those legends and folk traditions have nothing to do with the biological fact that most Africans in Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Sahara are biologically African with SOME small parts having Arab blood.
You said that these people were Arabs and have been shown wrong. Now you want to talk about identity and a common ancestor like that changes anything when it doesn't. The Fulani are primarily African biologically not Arab or anything else. We aren't talking social identity and you know it as it is you who have been claiming a Arab origin for these folks, not in terms of identity but biologically. Biology and folk traditions are two different things and that is the point I am trying to make. A Sudanese can jump up and down all day and say he is Arab, but biologically that wont change any of the facts that his blood primarily originates in Africa and not Arabia.
If you don't know what biology is then there is n further argument. You have admitted you don't know what you are talking about.
quote:Algeria/Mali
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:And what are you??? While you are giving people names for themselves as if they don't know who they are, give yourself a name. What are you?
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
None of these populations are Arab/Eurasian. Tishkoff et al. 2009 and 2010, the most accurate (2009) autosomal study on African and African Diaspora populations debunks any such claims. No need to continue to argue about it...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf
Baggara "Arabs", i.e. Sudanese Arabs are essentially 100% African. Indicating cultural influence, not genetic.
They are: 30.2% Chadic Saharan, 22.7% Niger-Kordofanians, 18.7% Cushitic, 9.2% Fulani, and 9.1% Nilo-Saharan. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Nigeria are: 71.1% Niger-Kordofanian, 8.6% Chadic Saharan, and 5.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Cameroon are: 59.3% Niger-Kordofanian, 18.2% Chadic Saharan, and 6.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Fulani are: 38.23% Fulani, 27.03% Niger-Kordofanian, 16.92% Chadic Saharan, and 6.39% Cushitic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Ouldeme who are 95.5% R1b are: 58.8% Chadic Saharan and 31.1% Niger-Kordofanian. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:My fathers a southern Algerian Tuareg and my mothers a northern Malian Songhai.
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:And what are you??? While you are giving people names for themselves as if they don't know who they are, give yourself a name. What are you?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
[qb] None of these populations are Arab/Eurasian. Tishkoff et al. 2009 and 2010, the most accurate (2009) autosomal study on African and African Diaspora populations debunks any such claims. No need to continue to argue about it...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf
Baggara "Arabs", i.e. Sudanese Arabs are essentially 100% African. Indicating cultural influence, not genetic.
They are: 30.2% Chadic Saharan, 22.7% Niger-Kordofanians, 18.7% Cushitic, 9.2% Fulani, and 9.1% Nilo-Saharan. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Nigeria are: 71.1% Niger-Kordofanian, 8.6% Chadic Saharan, and 5.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Cameroon are: 59.3% Niger-Kordofanian, 18.2% Chadic Saharan, and 6.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Fulani are: 38.23% Fulani, 27.03% Niger-Kordofanian, 16.92% Chadic Saharan, and 6.39% Cushitic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Ouldeme who are 95.5% R1b are: 58.8% Chadic Saharan and 31.1% Niger-Kordofanian. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
quote:Came out 100% "African" howwwww???? And what I say isn't a theory. It's the origin of these people - not a theory that I have come up with. The study you posted disproves nothing.
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Algeria/Mali
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:And what are you??? While you are giving people names for themselves as if they don't know who they are, give yourself a name. What are you?
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
None of these populations are Arab/Eurasian. Tishkoff et al. 2009 and 2010, the most accurate (2009) autosomal study on African and African Diaspora populations debunks any such claims. No need to continue to argue about it...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf
Baggara "Arabs", i.e. Sudanese Arabs are essentially 100% African. Indicating cultural influence, not genetic.
They are: 30.2% Chadic Saharan, 22.7% Niger-Kordofanians, 18.7% Cushitic, 9.2% Fulani, and 9.1% Nilo-Saharan. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Nigeria are: 71.1% Niger-Kordofanian, 8.6% Chadic Saharan, and 5.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Cameroon are: 59.3% Niger-Kordofanian, 18.2% Chadic Saharan, and 6.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Fulani are: 38.23% Fulani, 27.03% Niger-Kordofanian, 16.92% Chadic Saharan, and 6.39% Cushitic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Ouldeme who are 95.5% R1b are: 58.8% Chadic Saharan and 31.1% Niger-Kordofanian. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The study I posted disproves your theory. The Baggara Sudanese "Arabs", Hausa, Fulani, and Ouldeme all were sampled by Tishkoff et al. And all came out essentially 100% African, with no traces of Eurasian = Arab ancestry or admixture.
quote:If that is true, you are an ill-mannered brat (to say the least) for calling your ancestors liars because of the word of some European who knows nothing about Arabs and Arab genealogy. That's IF you are truly a Tuareg/Songhai.
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:My fathers a southern Algerian Tuareg and my mothers a northern Malian Songhai.
Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:And what are you??? While you are giving people names for themselves as if they don't know who they are, give yourself a name. What are you?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
[qb] None of these populations are Arab/Eurasian. Tishkoff et al. 2009 and 2010, the most accurate (2009) autosomal study on African and African Diaspora populations debunks any such claims. No need to continue to argue about it...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2009/04/30/1172257.DC1/Tishkoff.SOM.pdf
Baggara "Arabs", i.e. Sudanese Arabs are essentially 100% African. Indicating cultural influence, not genetic.
They are: 30.2% Chadic Saharan, 22.7% Niger-Kordofanians, 18.7% Cushitic, 9.2% Fulani, and 9.1% Nilo-Saharan. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Nigeria are: 71.1% Niger-Kordofanian, 8.6% Chadic Saharan, and 5.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Hausa from Cameroon are: 59.3% Niger-Kordofanian, 18.2% Chadic Saharan, and 6.5% Central Sudanic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Fulani are: 38.23% Fulani, 27.03% Niger-Kordofanian, 16.92% Chadic Saharan, and 6.39% Cushitic. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
The Ouldeme who are 95.5% R1b are: 58.8% Chadic Saharan and 31.1% Niger-Kordofanian. Everything else = frequency less than 5%.
quote:Arabs on the Arabian Peninsula also carry E3a and all of those tribes that you mentioned also say that their origin is from the Near East. In fact most of the carriers of E3a have traditions of origins from the Near East. That includes the Yoruba, the Fante, the Mandinka, the Balanta, the Bamileke, the Ga, the Fula, the Antanosy of Madagascar, and the Antaisaka of Madagascar. So having the same haplogroup as these people confirms one's Near Eastern origin, not the opposite. As I've mentioned before, E, R, and J are all common Haplogroups found on the Arabian Peninsula. So how does being E3a mean that one is biologically not an Arab???
Originally posted by KING:
IronLion
Don't take this the wrong way, but how can you say that Fulanis have more "Arab" in them when it's in Nigeria that Fulanis have E3a at 100%?
Also genetically these are the Africans closest to Fulanis:
Ibo, Yoruba, Kru, Volta, Mande, Sandawe, etc.
[C. Sforza/History, geography of human genes]
Again I say read this study that says that Fula have E3a at 100%:
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes
Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf
People really have to get over the idea that because a African has fine Features that they must be mixed or linked with wandering Arabs. Fulani are really as West African as you can Get
Percentage of E3a in African Populations:
Nigeria Fulbe: 100%
Niger Fulbe: 71%
Tuareg Niger: 63.6%
Songhai Niger: 80%
Yoruba Nigeria:90.5%
West Africans are linked with each other and as we can see the closest to Fulani with E3a is the Yoruba.
Remember also people that the Fulanis they probably looked at were the ones with Features that are Aquline nose and less wavy haired. Just like people were surprised that the Tuareg were over 60% E3a and we know for sure they pooled the Tuareg with light skin and finer Features. You will never know the links that Africans have with eachother by simply looking at there features genetics prove that Africans like the Tuareg, Fulani, Tutsi can have fine features without admixture.
Peace
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:So we should just take your word for it, with no documented evidence right? Sorry, you should have some documentation to back it up. What reason is there for white scientists to lie about Hausa genetics? Sounds like to me you are clinging to folk tales which are not the same as biological facts.
Originally posted by IronLion:
Doug
I was born and raised in Nigeria. Hausas and Fulanis have a lot more Arab in them than many people living on the Arabian pennisula. Every Nigeria knows that for sure, from real live experience not from reading genetic speculations of wight scientists...
Lion!
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:So what if I have Hausa heritage?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So we should just take your word for it, with no documented evidence right? Sorry, you should have some documentation to back it up. What reason is there for white scientists to lie about Hausa genetics? Sounds like to me you are clinging to folk tales which are not the same as biological facts.
Originally posted by IronLion:
Doug
I was born and raised in Nigeria. Hausas and Fulanis have a lot more Arab in them than many people living on the Arabian pennisula. Every Nigeria knows that for sure, from real live experience not from reading genetic speculations of wight scientists...
Lion!
How can you quantify "a lot of arab in them"? What is it based on? If it isn't based on ACTUAL Arab blood and genetics then it is meaningless. That is my point. Most Hausa do not have any substantial percentage of genes or markers that could be called "Arab" in any sense. The ONLY thing that makes them "Arab" is folk tales and traditions which have nothing to do with their bloodlines which are primarily African.
You don't like this so you want to avoid the actual genetic evidence which disproves you. But that is your problem not mine.
quote:What do you consider "genetic evidence" of Arab origin?
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So we should just take your word for it, with no documented evidence right? Sorry, you should have some documentation to back it up. What reason is there for white scientists to lie about Hausa genetics? Sounds like to me you are clinging to folk tales which are not the same as biological facts.
Originally posted by IronLion:
Doug
I was born and raised in Nigeria. Hausas and Fulanis have a lot more Arab in them than many people living on the Arabian pennisula. Every Nigeria knows that for sure, from real live experience not from reading genetic speculations of wight scientists...
Lion!
How can you quantify "a lot of arab in them"? What is it based on? If it isn't based on ACTUAL Arab blood and genetics then it is meaningless. That is my point. Most Hausa do not have any substantial percentage of genes or markers that could be called "Arab" in any sense. The ONLY thing that makes them "Arab" is folk tales and traditions which have nothing to do with their bloodlines which are primarily African.
You don't like this so you want to avoid the actual genetic evidence which disproves you. But that is your problem not mine.
quote:This shows how little you know about what you are talking about. Arab is a race and it means anyone from the peninsula of the Arabs and descended from certain people. "Africa" isn't a race and the name "Africa/African" is recent and doesn't have a real meaning.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:Arab is not a race and neither is Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This shows how little you know about what you are talking about. Arab is a race and it means anyone from the peninsula of the Arabs and descended from certain people. "Africa" isn't a race and the name "Africa/African" is recent and doesn't have a real meaning.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:If a person's paternal ancestor was an Arab, that person is an Arab. That's what makes an Arab an Arab. If one's paternal ancestor was a Roman, that person is a Roman. If a person's paternal ancestor was a Frank, that person is a Frank. And so on.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Arab is not a race and neither is Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This shows how little you know about what you are talking about. Arab is a race and it means anyone from the peninsula of the Arabs and descended from certain people. "Africa" isn't a race and the name "Africa/African" is recent and doesn't have a real meaning.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
Your logic is flawed as your definition of race is based on geography and nothing else. By that logic any population from any continent can be considered a race.
But no matter, even using your definition, the people of Hausa land do not originate in Arabia. Some of the rulers may have had interaction with some folks from Arabia a while back but the population in general is from Africa. Similarly the people of the Sahara are primarily from Africa.
The point stands that you take one or two people from Arabia who settled among a population of Africans as the basis of making a population Arab. And it is this that I say is pure nonsense. An entire population of Africans does not become Arab because a few people from Arabia may have mixed with them. The same goes for the Saharan Tuareg, Sudanese and other Africans.
Nobody denies interaction between Africa and Arabia, but that interaction does not make Africans into Arabs. This is simply a doctrine of Arab supremacy that was foisted on these Africans by Arabs who beat this idea into them that anything good comes from Arabia and that one of their paternal ancestors were Arab so they are Arab.
quote:Doug - you must not know much about Africa if you think the Beja who look exactly like many of the Sudanese Arabs in a lot of cases are any less racist. First of all in one sense the Sudanese Arab was literally a Beja that came into Africa.
Originally posted by Doug M:
These are Africans:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4645655336/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4645044977/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4607447160/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4606824615/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4607482550/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4820525676/ ...
No matter how much some want to beat you with the Arab stick.
quote:I didn't say Africans were a race. All I am saying is that it is believed that people lived in Africa
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:Dude, what on earth are you talking about? Anyone who would claim that the Beja aren't descendants of ancient Sudanese populations going back thousands of years needs to have their heead checked. I cannot believe you are even serious. These are the aboriginal people of the Nile Valley. They aren't Arabs.
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Doug - you must not know much about Africa if you think the Beja who look exactly like many of the Sudanese Arabs in a lot of cases are any less racist. First of all in one sense the Sudanese Arab was literally a Beja that came into Africa.
Originally posted by Doug M:
These are Africans:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4645655336/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4645044977/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4607447160/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4606824615/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4607482550/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j-pics_info/4820525676/ ...
No matter how much some want to beat you with the Arab stick.
The Hadorab/Hadoram, Hadda'ndowa, Amer and Bishari'in have always occupied both sides of the Red Sea. This silliness and ignorance about Africans must stop. Africa is a continent, a landmass, and furthermore East Africa is the term for Hijaz up until less than 80 years ago (Richard Burton should know!).
quote:Let me see, there are about 20-30 million hausa across Africa yet you imply that ONE Arab from hundreds of years ago makes all these people Arabs.....
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:If a person's paternal ancestor was an Arab, that person is an Arab. That's what makes an Arab an Arab. If one's paternal ancestor was a Roman, that person is a Roman. If a person's paternal ancestor was a Frank, that person is a Frank. And so on.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Arab is not a race and neither is Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This shows how little you know about what you are talking about. Arab is a race and it means anyone from the peninsula of the Arabs and descended from certain people. "Africa" isn't a race and the name "Africa/African" is recent and doesn't have a real meaning.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
Your logic is flawed as your definition of race is based on geography and nothing else. By that logic any population from any continent can be considered a race.
But no matter, even using your definition, the people of Hausa land do not originate in Arabia. Some of the rulers may have had interaction with some folks from Arabia a while back but the population in general is from Africa. Similarly the people of the Sahara are primarily from Africa.
The point stands that you take one or two people from Arabia who settled among a population of Africans as the basis of making a population Arab. And it is this that I say is pure nonsense. An entire population of Africans does not become Arab because a few people from Arabia may have mixed with them. The same goes for the Saharan Tuareg, Sudanese and other Africans.
Nobody denies interaction between Africa and Arabia, but that interaction does not make Africans into Arabs. This is simply a doctrine of Arab supremacy that was foisted on these Africans by Arabs who beat this idea into them that anything good comes from Arabia and that one of their paternal ancestors were Arab so they are Arab.
Ajayi says in his book History of Africa, “According to tradition, the Hausa are all descendants of one Bayajidda (Abu Yazidu) son of Abdullahi king of Baghdad."
Jacob Festus Ade Ajayi or J.F. Ade Ajayi (born May 1929) is a Nigerian historian and a member of the Ibadan school, a group of scholars interested in introducing African perspectives to African history and focusing on the internal historical forces that shaped African lives. Ade Ajayi favors the use of historical continuity more often than focusing on events only as powerful agents of change that can move the basic foundations of cultures and mold them into new ones. [1] Instead, he sees many critical events in African life, sometimes as weathering episodes which still leave some parts of the core of Africans intact. He also employs a less passionate style in his works, especially in his early writings, utilizing subtle criticism of controversial issues of the times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Ade_Ajayi
The Hausa say that they are from the Near East and their y-DNA is R1b1, which is from the Near East. So why do you find it hard to believe that they are from the Near East?
quote:Doug,
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Let me see, there are about 20-30 million hausa across Africa yet you imply that ONE Arab from hundreds of years ago makes all these people Arabs.....
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:If a person's paternal ancestor was an Arab, that person is an Arab. That's what makes an Arab an Arab. If one's paternal ancestor was a Roman, that person is a Roman. If a person's paternal ancestor was a Frank, that person is a Frank. And so on.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Arab is not a race and neither is Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This shows how little you know about what you are talking about. Arab is a race and it means anyone from the peninsula of the Arabs and descended from certain people. "Africa" isn't a race and the name "Africa/African" is recent and doesn't have a real meaning.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
Your logic is flawed as your definition of race is based on geography and nothing else. By that logic any population from any continent can be considered a race.
But no matter, even using your definition, the people of Hausa land do not originate in Arabia. Some of the rulers may have had interaction with some folks from Arabia a while back but the population in general is from Africa. Similarly the people of the Sahara are primarily from Africa.
The point stands that you take one or two people from Arabia who settled among a population of Africans as the basis of making a population Arab. And it is this that I say is pure nonsense. An entire population of Africans does not become Arab because a few people from Arabia may have mixed with them. The same goes for the Saharan Tuareg, Sudanese and other Africans.
Nobody denies interaction between Africa and Arabia, but that interaction does not make Africans into Arabs. This is simply a doctrine of Arab supremacy that was foisted on these Africans by Arabs who beat this idea into them that anything good comes from Arabia and that one of their paternal ancestors were Arab so they are Arab.
Ajayi says in his book History of Africa, “According to tradition, the Hausa are all descendants of one Bayajidda (Abu Yazidu) son of Abdullahi king of Baghdad."
Jacob Festus Ade Ajayi or J.F. Ade Ajayi (born May 1929) is a Nigerian historian and a member of the Ibadan school, a group of scholars interested in introducing African perspectives to African history and focusing on the internal historical forces that shaped African lives. Ade Ajayi favors the use of historical continuity more often than focusing on events only as powerful agents of change that can move the basic foundations of cultures and mold them into new ones. [1] Instead, he sees many critical events in African life, sometimes as weathering episodes which still leave some parts of the core of Africans intact. He also employs a less passionate style in his works, especially in his early writings, utilizing subtle criticism of controversial issues of the times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Ade_Ajayi
The Hausa say that they are from the Near East and their y-DNA is R1b1, which is from the Near East. So why do you find it hard to believe that they are from the Near East?
That right there is lunacy plain and simple.
But since you wanna play that game, how about this: all populations in Arabia have multiple common African ancestors from Africa who are the foundation of their lineages. I guess that makes them all African huh?
Save that stupid logic for those imbeciles who need to raise their self esteem by identifying with everything BUT being African as if being African is something to be ashamed of.
Unfortunately I thought you were above that but obviously you aren't.
quote:What "multiple common African ancestors" are you referring to?
Originally posted by Doug M:
But since you wanna play that game, how about this: all populations in Arabia have multiple common African ancestors from Africa who are the foundation of their lineages. I guess that makes them all African huh?
quote:It doesn't matter. The point is you cannot prove that most Africans in Sudan, the Sahara or West Africa descended from one Arab. So you can keep your fairy tales to yourself.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Doug,
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Let me see, there are about 20-30 million hausa across Africa yet you imply that ONE Arab from hundreds of years ago makes all these people Arabs.....
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:If a person's paternal ancestor was an Arab, that person is an Arab. That's what makes an Arab an Arab. If one's paternal ancestor was a Roman, that person is a Roman. If a person's paternal ancestor was a Frank, that person is a Frank. And so on.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Arab is not a race and neither is Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:This shows how little you know about what you are talking about. Arab is a race and it means anyone from the peninsula of the Arabs and descended from certain people. "Africa" isn't a race and the name "Africa/African" is recent and doesn't have a real meaning.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:So what is Arab then? You keep running down the word Africa as not a race but you keep talking about Arabs. If Africans aren't a race then neither are Arabs. If you claim someone cannot be identified as African, then how can someone be identified as Arab? You simply are contradicting yourself and running in circles. On one hand you say Africa isn't a race, then turn right around and claim Arab as if it is a race. You are seriously delusional.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
Your logic is flawed as your definition of race is based on geography and nothing else. By that logic any population from any continent can be considered a race.
But no matter, even using your definition, the people of Hausa land do not originate in Arabia. Some of the rulers may have had interaction with some folks from Arabia a while back but the population in general is from Africa. Similarly the people of the Sahara are primarily from Africa.
The point stands that you take one or two people from Arabia who settled among a population of Africans as the basis of making a population Arab. And it is this that I say is pure nonsense. An entire population of Africans does not become Arab because a few people from Arabia may have mixed with them. The same goes for the Saharan Tuareg, Sudanese and other Africans.
Nobody denies interaction between Africa and Arabia, but that interaction does not make Africans into Arabs. This is simply a doctrine of Arab supremacy that was foisted on these Africans by Arabs who beat this idea into them that anything good comes from Arabia and that one of their paternal ancestors were Arab so they are Arab.
Ajayi says in his book History of Africa, “According to tradition, the Hausa are all descendants of one Bayajidda (Abu Yazidu) son of Abdullahi king of Baghdad."
Jacob Festus Ade Ajayi or J.F. Ade Ajayi (born May 1929) is a Nigerian historian and a member of the Ibadan school, a group of scholars interested in introducing African perspectives to African history and focusing on the internal historical forces that shaped African lives. Ade Ajayi favors the use of historical continuity more often than focusing on events only as powerful agents of change that can move the basic foundations of cultures and mold them into new ones. [1] Instead, he sees many critical events in African life, sometimes as weathering episodes which still leave some parts of the core of Africans intact. He also employs a less passionate style in his works, especially in his early writings, utilizing subtle criticism of controversial issues of the times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Ade_Ajayi
The Hausa say that they are from the Near East and their y-DNA is R1b1, which is from the Near East. So why do you find it hard to believe that they are from the Near East?
That right there is lunacy plain and simple.
But since you wanna play that game, how about this: all populations in Arabia have multiple common African ancestors from Africa who are the foundation of their lineages. I guess that makes them all African huh?
Save that stupid logic for those imbeciles who need to raise their self esteem by identifying with everything BUT being African as if being African is something to be ashamed of.
Unfortunately I thought you were above that but obviously you aren't.
Do you believe that all humans are descended from one man or no?
quote:I didn't say Africans were a race. All I am saying is that it is believed that people lived in Africa
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:I didn't say Africans were a race. All I am saying is that it is believed that people lived in Africa
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:What do you mean by "Africans"? "African" isn't a race - remember.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Some would argue that Arabs originally were Africans who migrated into Arabia in prehistoric times.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
for people who haven't realized it yet brother awlaadberry believes mankind originated on the Arabian Peninsula.
So it's actually the Africans who came after the original black Arabs and who have some traits of the original blacks-Arabs
not the other way around
-don't let the white scientists fool you
I never mentioned anything about where mankind originated and it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arab or not Arab and whether man originated in what you call "Africa" and what you have completely cut off from the Arabian Peninsula or originated in any other place, an Arab is still an Arab.
before they lived in Arabia and that the people who lived in Arabia were people who came from Africa.
I challenge you to say whether or not you believe that.
quote:I didn't say anything about race. You are mentioning "Arab" and I could say to you there is no Arab race but likewise you didn't use the word race. If all mankind originated it "Africa" it does make all mankind of Africans ancestry in that sense all Africans.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Lioness,
I keep telling you that the discussion here is not about the origin of mankind. The discussion here is about who is an Arab and who isn't. What you call "Africa" is just a place. It is not a race. If all mankind originated it "Africa", that doesn't make all mankind "Africans". Allah said that He made us nations and tribes.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.
Concerning where I believe man originated, I believe they originated in Paradise because our father Adam was created in Paradise. [/QB]
quote:Lioness,
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:I didn't say anything about race. You are mentioning "Arab" and I could say to you there is no Arab race but likewise you didn't use the word race. If all mankind originated it "Africa" it does make all mankind of Africans ancestry in that sense all Africans.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Lioness,
I keep telling you that the discussion here is not about the origin of mankind. The discussion here is about who is an Arab and who isn't. What you call "Africa" is just a place. It is not a race. If all mankind originated it "Africa", that doesn't make all mankind "Africans". Allah said that He made us nations and tribes.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.
Concerning where I believe man originated, I believe they originated in Paradise because our father Adam was created in Paradise.
To be an Arab is an identity that centers around the Arabic language and other cultural aspects.
The earliest surviving texts in Proto-Arabic, or Ancient North Arabian, are the Hasaean inscriptions of eastern Saudi Arabia, from the 8th century BC, written not in the modern Arabic alphabet, nor in its Nabataean ancestor, but in variants of the epigraphic South Arabian musnad.
Arabic has also borrowed words from many languages, including Hebrew,Greek Persian and Syriac in early centuries, Turkish in medieval times and contemporary European languages in modern times.
Arabic culture and language, however, began a more limited diffusion before the Islamic age, first spreading in West Asia beginning in the 2nd century, as Arab Christians such as the Ghassanids, Lakhmids and Banu Judham began migrating north from Arabia into the Syrian Desert and the Levant. [/QB]
quote:You are right IronLion. I've been trying the longest to understand what he is trying to say, but I can't. I guess it's because, like you said, he is saying nothing.
Originally posted by IronLion:
^^Awlaad
Lionese is a plagiarist troll, who goes to other sites and copies what people write and then without fully comprehending the import he pastes it on ES as if it were his own opinion.
Don't waste your tie on him. This is a disturbed so-called red-pink boi, pretending to be a black woman.
Here is one good example now of er time wasting:
"The earliest surviving texts in Proto-Arabic, or Ancient North Arabian, are the Hasaean inscriptions of eastern Saudi Arabia, from the 8th century BC, written not in the modern Arabic alphabet, nor in its Nabataean ancestor, but in variants of the epigraphic South Arabian musnad. These are followed by 6th-century BC Lihyanite texts from southeastern Saudi Arabia and the Thamudic texts found throughout Arabia and the Sinai, and not actually connected with Thamud..."
http://www.bukhatir.org/forums/en/showthread.php?4590-History-of-the-Arabic-Language
quote:Obviously a letter from someone who is not associated with a Kel or other known agency representing Tuareg identity, history or culture does not constitute anything that can be used on any grounds as proof of anything.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
http://www.timbuktufoundation.org/people.htm
Here's the translation of the article that started this topic:
The Tuaregs Reject the Claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress
We, at the website Rif Today, received a letter from Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata as President of an association in Mali called The Northern Youth of Mali Association. The letter rejects the claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress that the Tuareg people are Berbers. The following is the text of the letter as we received it:
Indeed the Northern Youth of Mali Association strongly rejects the lies that the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress is spreading through the media that the Tuaregs of Mali and Niger belong to the Amazigh (Berber) people. The Northern Youth of Mali Association confirms that these claims are lies which have no scientific basis and that Mr. Belqasim Lonis, who specializes in chemistry, has no background in history in order to prove the truth of this myth. Indeed all of the reliable history books confirm that the Tuareg are of Arab origin and that the Tuareg alphabet are related to Arabic writing and this is the Tuareg origin that has been known since time immemorial. We consider those false tales about the origin of the Tuareg meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by clients working for others with connections with suspicious groups.
Consequently, we affirm strongly that we will not allow the hired World Amazigh (Berber) Congress, whom we have no connections with, to meddle in our affairs and to speak about our origin. And we confirm that we, the Tuareg people of Kidal, Gao, and Timbuktu, are proud of our nations (Mali and Niger) that we belong to and we are proud of our upright religion - Islam. And we declare that our goal is to attain security, stability, peace, and progress in the great Sahara for the happiness of our people and for all tribes of the great Sahara to live in harmony. This is the position of every Tuareg who struggles at all places and all times to achieve these goals.
Dr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata
President
http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2011/02/blog-post_877.html
Explorer et al,
Did you hear what he said about not meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by making false claims about their origin? That applies to you, too.
quote:Wow! Talk about pig-headedness!
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Obviously a letter from someone who is not associated with a Kel or other known agency representing Tuareg identity, history or culture does not constitute anything that can be used on any grounds as proof of anything.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
http://www.timbuktufoundation.org/people.htm
Here's the translation of the article that started this topic:
The Tuaregs Reject the Claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress
We, at the website Rif Today, received a letter from Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata as President of an association in Mali called The Northern Youth of Mali Association. The letter rejects the claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress that the Tuareg people are Berbers. The following is the text of the letter as we received it:
Indeed the Northern Youth of Mali Association strongly rejects the lies that the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress is spreading through the media that the Tuaregs of Mali and Niger belong to the Amazigh (Berber) people. The Northern Youth of Mali Association confirms that these claims are lies which have no scientific basis and that Mr. Belqasim Lonis, who specializes in chemistry, has no background in history in order to prove the truth of this myth. Indeed all of the reliable history books confirm that the Tuareg are of Arab origin and that the Tuareg alphabet are related to Arabic writing and this is the Tuareg origin that has been known since time immemorial. We consider those false tales about the origin of the Tuareg meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by clients working for others with connections with suspicious groups.
Consequently, we affirm strongly that we will not allow the hired World Amazigh (Berber) Congress, whom we have no connections with, to meddle in our affairs and to speak about our origin. And we confirm that we, the Tuareg people of Kidal, Gao, and Timbuktu, are proud of our nations (Mali and Niger) that we belong to and we are proud of our upright religion - Islam. And we declare that our goal is to attain security, stability, peace, and progress in the great Sahara for the happiness of our people and for all tribes of the great Sahara to live in harmony. This is the position of every Tuareg who struggles at all places and all times to achieve these goals.
Dr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata
President
http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2011/02/blog-post_877.html
Explorer et al,
Did you hear what he said about not meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by making false claims about their origin? That applies to you, too.
Legends and folk traditions are fine if they come from authentic sources. However, that does not change the fact that biological evidence is going to always have more weight in any historical analysis than folk traditions alone. That does not always mean they disagree, because sometimes they do.
There are various kels associated with the Tuareg spread among various regions in North Africa, some with more Arab blood than others. Some have more European blood than others. That does not mean that the Tuaregs as a whole originated in Europe or Arabia. They primarily derive from native Africans and then took on some mixture from these other groups in some cases.
quote:What does the lack of J mean to you?
Originally posted by Leo Minor:
Tuaregs are the likely decedents of the Garamantes. + The lack of Haplo J speaks for itself.
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200403/libya.s.forgotten.desert.kingdom.htm
quote:Do you mean because their haplogroup is E and not J? As I've said many times, E is a very common haplogroup in Arabia. Why do you think their haplogroup must be J in order to be Arab - and I mean Arab by blood?
Originally posted by Leo Minor:
I was referring to Haplogroup J Y-DNA in general.
Go to Wikipedia and lookup Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)
Google a study called
Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A genetic survey of their paternal heritage
What of course via self definition or in a Pan-Arab sence does not mean that they are not Arabs.
quote:An African is a person who comes from Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Lioness,
It's not really clear to me what you are saying, but let me just say this much to you. An Arab is a person descended from one of the following people:
*Qahtan
*Adnan, who is a descendant of Ismael (pbuh) who is a descendant ot Faligh the brother of Qahtan
*Aram
*Abraham (pbuh) and his wife Keturah
Qahtan and Faligh are both descendants of Arfakshadh. Arfakshadh is the brother of Aram and they (Arfakshadh and Aram) are the sons of Sam the son of Noah (pbuh). These are the Arabs of history. Anyone not descended from these people is not an Arab whether he/she speaks Arabic or not. Anyone descended from these people is an Arab whether he/she is in the area you call "Africa" or anywhere else and no matter what language he/she speaks today. This is what an Arab is. Can you tell me what an "African" is??? [/QB]
quote:You are hilarious! Arabs don't use place-names for their genealogy. They use people. And why are you asking now about the origin of Qahtan? You asked me what an Arab is and I just told you. Where are you going now? Are you going to take us back to Noah (pbuh) or to Adam (pbuh) now? Where are you going with this???!!! Leave me alone Lioness. I don't understand you and you don't understand me.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:An African is a person who comes from Africa.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Lioness,
It's not really clear to me what you are saying, but let me just say this much to you. An Arab is a person descended from one of the following people:
*Qahtan
*Adnan, who is a descendant of Ismael (pbuh) who is a descendant ot Faligh the brother of Qahtan
*Aram
*Abraham (pbuh) and his wife Keturah
Qahtan and Faligh are both descendants of Arfakshadh. Arfakshadh is the brother of Aram and they (Arfakshadh and Aram) are the sons of Sam the son of Noah (pbuh). These are the Arabs of history. Anyone not descended from these people is not an Arab whether he/she speaks Arabic or not. Anyone descended from these people is an Arab whether he/she is in the area you call "Africa" or anywhere else and no matter what language he/she speaks today. This is what an Arab is. Can you tell me what an "African" is???
If you ask somebody where are they from and they say France do you question "what is a Frenchman"
If people identify with a location do they then have to have a particular lineage to particular people?
You say this is the case with Qahtan, Adnan, Aram
and Abraham.
Where did their ancestors come from?
For example Adnan only goes back to 122 BC,
That's only 2,133 years ago
Qahtan probably somewhere between 3000 and 2000 BC
That is 5,000 years ago at most.
So where did his ancestors come from? Did he pop out of nowhere? He had a father an mother where did they come from, grandmother etc?
What about 6,000 years ago?
what about 9,000 years ago?
It is hypothesized that Africans were living in Africa thousands of years before Yemen/ Arabian peninsula had any human beings living there.
It is hypothesized that Qahtan's ancestors would have been Africans, meaning people who lived in African and then migrated to the Arabian peninsula. [/QB]
quote:Leo Minor,
Originally posted by Leo Minor:
IronLion
Some one who makes foolish statements about Haplo R as a Arab marker or even that afro Americans are supposed to be Arabs has his own ideological issues.
Tuaregs are Indigenous descendants of the Garamantes based on genetics what’s more to say?
And if you think the Article on Wikipedia is flawed then contribute to the Article.
quote:To Africa where Africans and Arabs come from, for example, the ancestors of Qahtan
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You are hilarious! Arabs don't use place-names for their genealogy. They use people. And why are you asking now about the origin of Qahtan? You asked me what an Arab is and I just told you. Where are you going now? Are you going to take us back to Noah (pbuh) or to Adam (pbuh) now? Where are you going with this???!!!
quote:OK Lioness. I'll meet you there.
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:To Africa where Africans and Arabs come from, for example, the ancestors of Qahtan
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You are hilarious! Arabs don't use place-names for their genealogy. They use people. And why are you asking now about the origin of Qahtan? You asked me what an Arab is and I just told you. Where are you going now? Are you going to take us back to Noah (pbuh) or to Adam (pbuh) now? Where are you going with this???!!!
quote:Then read my book The Unknown Arabs.
Originally posted by Leo Minor:
[QB] Actually I am more interested in your opinion and why Afro-Americans are supposed to be Arabs?
quote:Okay?
Originally posted by the lyingass trying to misconstrue:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about.
quote:And I never said otherwise. Genetics is far more valid and it proves that Africans are diverse and have very little admixture from outside in contrast to Southwest Asians and Europeans who have significant African mixture among them. Europeans alone carry 1/3 African lineages so maybe you are one of those demented whites who use the black ancestry to claim to be black. LOL
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Of course nose width is not valid factor of ethnic descent
quote:Unlike you I'm just posting pictures of Bedouins along with Doug. I'm not making any argument at all, idiot.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, picture spamming is another weak argument technique
quote:Speak for yourself! We have told you many times that there is NO evidence whatsoever that the Berber descend from Arabs. That some groups claim descent from Himyarites is just fabricated ashraf genealogy for Islamic prestige. Berbers possess predominantly indigenous E lineages. What's more is that traditionally before Islam, the Berbers were matrilineal and many still are. That is the reason why the Tuareg kels have feminine names. It was only after conversion to Islam that the Tuareg men begin to create their own lineages and falsely claim them from Yemen.
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Wow! Talk about pig-headedness!
quote:Indeed.
Originally posted by Doug M:
It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
quote:Djehuti do you know anything about that bedouin man to say that he is from "Africa"? Based on what you made him from "Africa"?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Indeed.
Originally posted by Doug M:
It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
Notice the Berber man in the top and the Bedouin man in the bottom share the same features so Berry believes this is because the former descends from the latter but the fact is that they share common origins in Africa.
quote:It is not African but ULTIMATELY derive from africa
quote from exhorror Must I teach you this basic sense? And no, Arabic is not an African language, though it does ultimately derive from an African language.
quote:
^ quote from djehuti and the blow fish Based on anthropological remains and genetics which show that not only the ancestors of the Arabs but the ancestors of Semitic speakers in general came from Africa and entered the Levant and Arabia during mesolithic times!
By African immigrants I don't mean recent immigrants. I understand there is a misconception that blacks in the Middle East are the result of recent migrations mainly slavery, but I'm talking about much ancient even prehistoric immigrations. The Levant and Arabia are right next to Africa so why is it so hard to believe that natives of that region have African ancestry. Look up the origins of Semitic and Afroasiatic languages.
quote:
It is said that from their home in Yemen, (the Tubba's) used to
raid Ifriqiyah and the Berbers of the Maghrib. Afriqus b. Qays
b. Sayfi, one of their great early kings who lived in the time
of Moses or somewhat earlier, is said to have raided Ifriqiyah.
He caused a great slaughter among the Berbers. He gave them the
name Berbers when he heard their jargon and asked what that
"barbarah" was. This gave them the name which has remained
with them since that time. When he left the Maghrib, he is said to
have cncentrated some Himyar tribes there. They remained there and
mixed with the native population. Their (descendents) are the
Sinhajah and the Kutamah. This led at~Tabari, al~Jujani, al~Masudi,
ibn al~Kalbi, and al~Bayhaqi to make the statement that the
Sinhaja and the Kutamah belong to the Himyar. The Berber
genealogists do not admit this, and they are right.
... All this information is remote from the truth. It is rooted
in baseless and erroneous assumptions. It is more like the
fiction of storytellers. ... There is no way from Yemen to the
Maghrib except via Suez. The distance between the Red Sea and
the Mediterranean is two day's journey or less. It is unlikely
that the distance could be traversed by a great ruler with a
large army unless he controlled the region. This, as a rule, is
impossible. In that region there were the Amalekites and Canaan
in Syria... There is, however, no report that the Tubba's ever
fought against one of these nations ... Furthermore
the distance from the Yemen to the Maghrib is great, and an
army requires much food and fodder. ... Again, it would be a
most unlikely and impossible assumption that such an army could
pass through all those nations without disturbing them, obtaining
its provisions by peaceful negotiation. This shows that all such
information (about Tubba' expeditions to the Maghrib) is silly
or fictitious.
... Assertions to this effect should not be trusted; all such
information should be invstigated and checked with sound norms.
The result will be that it will most beautifully be demolished.
ibn Khaldun
The Muqaddimah
Oran, ~1377
Introduction I,14-16
quote:Do you really claim to know where they or you come from that long ago?
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Djehuti do you know anything about that bedouin man to say that he is from "Africa"? Based on what you made him from "Africa"?
quote:Yes Arreubinsoni. Arabic is derived from a central Arabian language which is in turn derived from Semitic which in turn is derived from proto-Afrasian which originated in AFRICA.
Originally posted by arreubinsoni:
It is not African but ULTIMATELY derive from africa
quote:In other words Arabia and Egypt are one so the Egyptians are Arabs and Arabs are Egyptians.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
While Arabia is often seen as separate from Africa and part of Asia, it can just as much be seen as an extension of Africa which geologically speaking it is. Why can't the same be said anthropologically or culturally? [/QB]
quote:Lol! This was bound to happen because there are so many people calling themselves Berber today who are actually speaking the ancient Tamashek or Tuareg dialects but are culturally and biologically more Euro-Mediterranean than Berber. I am so glad the Tuareg have been able to hold onto their true heritage.
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[qb] Read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
http://www.timbuktufoundation.org/people.htm
Here's the translation of the article that started this topic:
The Tuaregs Reject the Claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress
We, at the website Rif Today, received a letter from Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata as President of an association in Mali called The Northern Youth of Mali Association. The letter rejects the claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress that the Tuareg people are Berbers. The following is the text of the letter as we received it:
Indeed the Northern Youth of Mali Association strongly rejects the lies that the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress is spreading through the media that the Tuaregs of Mali and Niger belong to the Amazigh (Berber) people. The Northern Youth of Mali Association confirms that these claims are lies which have no scientific basis and that Mr. Belqasim Lonis, who specializes in chemistry, has no background in history in order to prove the truth of this myth. Indeed all of the reliable history books confirm that the Tuareg are of Arab origin and that the Tuareg alphabet are related to Arabic writing and this is the Tuareg origin that has been known since time immemorial. We consider those false tales about the origin of the Tuareg meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by clients working for others with connections with suspicious groups.
Consequently, we affirm strongly that we will not allow the hired World Amazigh (Berber) Congress, whom we have no connections with, to meddle in our affairs and to speak about our origin. And we confirm that we, the Tuareg people of Kidal, Gao, and Timbuktu, are proud of our nations (Mali and Niger) that we belong to and we are proud of our upright religion - Islam. And we declare that our goal is to attain security, stability, peace, and progress in the great Sahara for the happiness of our people and for all tribes of the great Sahara to live in harmony. This is the position of every Tuareg who struggles at all places and all times to achieve these goals.
Dr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata
President
http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2011/02/blog-post_877.html
Explorer et al,
Did you hear what he said about not meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by making false claims about their origin? That applies to you, too.
quote:Modern Arabs are barely Arab and many modern Egyptians come from all over the place so NO. That's two strikes - one more and your out.
:
quote:In other words Arabia and Egypt are one so the Egyptians are Arabs and Arabs are Egyptians.
Originally posted by LYING YOU KNOW WHAT:
dana, please cosign before Djehuti replies [/QB]
quote:Where has Djhuti said the Hebrews were free from blacks??
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
Mary wants to see Arabia as an extension of Africa, geologically and culturally, but refuses to extend this argument to Hebrew culture. It must be free from blacks...
quote:Afrocentric Group think, No Room for individual thinking..
Originally posted by Mike111:
^Lioness, except for you and Jari, I think everyone else gets it.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
She ascribes little to AE. Thats wanting it to be free from blacks in my view. Now her evolved view (but still trying to stick in Asia somewhere) is that it is an outgrowth of a "proto-Afrasian" ( ) religious complex which originated in Africa. Confused yet? lol quote:This is amazing coming form a Christian who insists that gospels aren't contradictory.
Afrocentric Group think, No Room for individual thinking..
quote:*sigh*
HE claims the Hebrew culture was not an exact carbon copy like you USED to claim
quote:Yeh, the anti-woman bashing, thats theirs.
clearly Hebrew Culture developed its own concepts
quote:^^^^
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
Its crazy watching Christians call the other Abrahamic faith, Islam, "anti-black" "anti-African". Fact is all three are ungrateful hypocritical copy-cats of Nile Valley concepts.
quote:Yeh they "respect" women so much they saw them as introducing evil and thought goddess worship was the most sinful thing ever. Incline towards male dominate and extreme primitive tribal hatred for the female sex are two completely different things. OT is laced with sexism, only a fanatic such as yourself would seek to deny this.
Israel had plenty respect for the Women if Israel,
quote:In terms of dominant influence I would def. go with AE. Their own account has the person associated with giving them one god and an organized religious complex was an Egyptian, the only image of their god they created (or claimed they created) was patterned off AE "ark". Can't escape these and other important Heb. concepts whatever other mythological influences there were from elsewhere. Also we like to forget that "Hebrews" can be seen as more or less disgruntled (anti-goddess worship) Canaanites who came up with their own thing. Their god "El" is one such indicator. Canaanite cosmology is also heavily influenced by AE.
Basically, judging from the collection of Hebrew literature dubbed TN"K (Torah, Nebiiym, Kethubiym) the earliest theology like the cosmogyny is mostly
"Mesopotamian" derived though not devoid of concepts
in Egyptian cosmogyny, and after that the theology
is partially Egyptian interlaced with self originating
Hebrew theology with its very late components having
some Persian influences. By the era of post-2nd Temple
Judea, infusions from Roman thought are obvious in
the Mishnah and baraitha compilations.
quote:Its a common Christian interpretation.
This is a common Atheist misconception
) genesis stories reveal an early matriarchal and patriarchal split in Heb. thinking towards women. The patriarchal stream, that has woman created after man, seems to have won out given the fact that Israelites were so hostile to women. They thought the worship of any other god was sinful but they had particular hatred for goddess worship which, based on OT, the Israelites were particularly prone to. quote:This is simply your opinion nothing more nothing less,
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Its a common Christian interpretation.
This is a common Atheist misconception
Actually the two contradictory (that word again
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
quote:Yes, its all my "opinion" that the AEs were matriarchal while ancient Israelites were patriarchal and that there are two contradictory creation myths in the book of genesis. LOL!
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:This is simply your opinion nothing more nothing less,
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Its a common Christian interpretation.
This is a common Atheist misconception
Actually the two contradictory (that word again
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
)worship as well as seeing all "others" as equal to "devil worship", that part is them.
quote:LOL, Your whole Contradicting Creation Myth non sense in nothing to me as the Creation myth was a Parable and a Myth in the First place..LOL.
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Yes, its all my "opinion" that the AEs were matriarchal while ancient Israelites were patriarchal and that there are two contradictory creation myths in the book of genesis. LOL!
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:This is simply your opinion nothing more nothing less,
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Its a common Christian interpretation.
This is a common Atheist misconception
Actually the two contradictory (that word again
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
quote:So do you dismiss the virgin (i.e. no sexual union) birth, miracles, death and resurrection of your god too?
Your whole Contradicting Creation Myth non sense in nothing to me as the Creation myth was a Parable and a Myth in the First place
quote:Oh come now Jariboy, do you yes or no?
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
^^^^What do you care for anyway Dasein?? .
quote:Rather I would say that most Arabs nowadays are not the original indigenous Arabian types but Eurasians from the north who gradually infiltrated the Peninsula. Definitely not one and the same as the original Arabs let alone African Egyptians.
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Modern Arabs are barely Arab and many modern Egyptians come from all over the place so NO. That's two strikes - one more and your out.
:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LYING YOU KNOW WHAT:
In other words Arabia and Egypt are one so the Egyptians are Arabs and Arabs are Egyptians.
dana, please cosign before Djehuti replies
quote:Yes Jari, in his fervent and ravenous haste the Anguished-homo failed to see his logical failure. And yes I believe he as thing for Filipino-homos and trannies which is why he has a crush on me and constantly refers to me as "Mary". LOL It matters not that I'm no homo or tranny.
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
Where has Djhuti said the Hebrews were free from blacks??
He makes it clear the idea of Hebrews coping Egyptian culture is false...
Did'nt you just say you never ever claimed the Hebrews copied the Egyptians....(But I know that beat Down I was giving you forced you to change your opinion huh..LOL)
So your Dumbass is in agreement with him, Right Dummy...
LMAO...
Fess up Bitch...Which is it??
(WTFs up with Faggot ass pic, what a Fag)
quote:Jari. Understand that the aboriginal Arabians were black. Many were related to Africans across the Red Sea and Sinai, while some were related to black Indians of South Asia. It was historically documented that during the great Bronze Age migrations, there were populations from the Caucasus and Central Asia that migrated farther south into the Levant and Arabia. These people adopted the surrounding Semitic languages but put their own cultural twist including patriarchy. It is these who are the non-black Levantines and Arabs.
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
Afrocentric Group think, No Room for individual thinking..
Im Sorry but these following Arabs Exist and have Existed in Arabia
were there blacks Arabs yes.
but its time to let the chips fall where they land...
http://www.pjwesq.com/uploaded_images/yemeni-boys-small-file-755685.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Then read my book The Unknown Arabs.
Originally posted by Leo Minor:
[QB] Actually I am more interested in your opinion and why Afro-Americans are supposed to be Arabs?
quote:you keep bringing up modern ARabs and ARabians as if that somehow negates the fact that most ancient people called Arabs were near black in color.
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
^^^^
I never said there was no black arabs. What Im saying is that people want to act like those Arabs don't exist or that they magically came in and took over Arabia etc. Some of the people I posted are very dark and have features that match the Art work(Created by Egyptians, Persians etc) of people said to live in the Areas Arabs populate.
quote:Don't forget to add your monkey and clown comments about Negroes, Iberian - like you add on youtube.
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
The Victorious does'nt take requests from servile peasants.
Now Go bow to your whiteboy Graves..and don't forget about MAssey...LMAO, You Negros have no Originality.....
Sad.
I'm not sure why you would avoid that on Egyptsearch.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Rather I would say that most Arabs nowadays are not the original indigenous Arabian types but Eurasians from the north who gradually infiltrated the Peninsula. Definitely not one and the same as the original Arabs let alone African Egyptians.
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Modern Arabs are barely Arab and many modern Egyptians come from all over the place so NO. That's two strikes - one more and your out.
:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LYING YOU KNOW WHAT:
In other words Arabia and Egypt are one so the Egyptians are Arabs and Arabs are Egyptians.
dana, please cosign before Djehuti replies
Lyingass's conjecture is the same as saying modern white Jews are the same as the ancient Israelites. LOL But speaking of those Joos..
quote:Yes Jari, in his fervent and ravenous haste the Anguished-homo failed to see his logical failure. And yes I believe he as thing for Filipino-homos and trannies which is why he has a crush on me and constantly refers to me as "Mary". LOL It matters not that I'm no homo or tranny.
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
Where has Djhuti said the Hebrews were free from blacks??
He makes it clear the idea of Hebrews coping Egyptian culture is false...
Did'nt you just say you never ever claimed the Hebrews copied the Egyptians....(But I know that beat Down I was giving you forced you to change your opinion huh..LOL)
So your Dumbass is in agreement with him, Right Dummy...
LMAO...
Fess up Bitch...Which is it??
(WTFs up with Faggot ass pic, what a Fag)
quote:What language is this, or where exactly in Africa are you from?
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Emoo woloo bah lehti. Guess what I just said?
quote:You will never look anything like this beautiful Beja chief, Iberian!
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
The Victorious does'nt take requests from servile peasants.
Now Go bow to your whiteboy Graves..and don't forget about MAssey...LMAO, You Negros have no Originality.....
Sad.
quote:Actually I don't see any blacks at all Mr. Menendiz or should I "just call you the Goth wannabe".
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
^^^^^^^
I would bring another beating on you Pink Panther but Im in a good mood so ill let you slide this time.
BTW, can anyone find the "Great Of Medjay" quote referring to Ramses Im still searching.
^^^^^
Dana's Servile Barbaric Arab forefathers scraping at the feet of the Nile Valley African Kings. Look Dana the Pink Panther I see a Black Arab scraping too...
quote:Slut you realize the image I used IS FROM Mike's website..LOL. NOW!!!!....LMBAO
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Blah blah.....like like to lighten up or use the most faded versions of the ancient paintings. Guess Mike was right. Ya just can't be trusted.
quote:I don't care where your image came from. NOW!!!! BTW - everyone knows where I come from except you and now they know where you come from.
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
quote:Slut you realize the image I used IS FROM Mike's website..LOL. NOW!!!!....LMBAO
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Blah blah.....like like to lighten up or use the most faded versions of the ancient paintings. Guess Mike was right. Ya just can't be trusted.
How stupid do you look you Stupid Cockamayme Arabian slut, maybe we should call you Dana the Whore of Arabia Liarnich"
Now get back to your Harem Harlot.