He is originally from Upper Egypt, but does he look like a Muslim Egyptian?
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
Copt Egyptian Woman
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Depends which part Coptic Christian comes from. Sawiris is from Upper Egypt but the region is closer to areas like Minya and Asyut were both Muslims and Christians tend to be light brown. Plus many of the more wealthy Copts have mixed with Armenians and Lebanese Christians.
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Depends which part Coptic Christian comes from. Sawiris is from Upper Egypt but the region is closer to areas like Minya and Asyut were both Muslims and Christians tend to be light brown. Plus many of the more wealthy Copts have mixed with Armenians and Lebanese Christians.
Does this mean that Copts tend to be more European looking than Muslim Egyptians?
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
Khaled Said ... Killed By Egyptian Police!
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Both Muslims and Christians in Egypt have people in their populations that look more European. This could reflect that both have foreign Christian and Muslim converts.
Compare Khaled Said with Muhammed Atta.
Mau, here are some Coptic and Muslim Egyptians from my photo bucket:
The Copts are supposedly the purest descendents from the ancient Egyptians.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Supposed by who? It is an established fact that there is NO difference between Copts and Muslims ethnically or phenotypically.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Early scholars linked the Copts to the ancient Egyptians simply because of their liturgical language. The liturgical language was used to translate the hieroglyphics. This is why most people think the Copts are the purest descendants of the ancient Egyptians. I doubt a non-Egyptian could tell the difference between a Coptic Christian or a Muslim. The only way most Egyptians can tell the difference is by a cross tattoo on the wrist.
I don't know the reliability of the author. From personal observation most Copts I have seen in America tend to be paler than Muslims. I can attest to this from personal services at my local Coptic church and from interactions with Egyptians in the New York area.
Here is the quote:
(…… is true that in certain areas of Upper Egypt one is sometimes struck by the similarity of a Coptic physiogamy with personages depicted on pharaonic murals and perhaps the Copts are more uniformly dark-skinned and dark-eyed than their Muslim counterparts,whose color-especially among the upper classes--- has been white washed through intermarriage with the Muslim Circasians,Georgians and Albanians who ruled for centuries. But even this statement can be made only tentatively,because in the twentieth century there was some intermarriage in the upper reaches of Coptic society with Europeans………)
Page 20 Christians Versus Muslims in Modern Egypt S.S. Hasan Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Supposed by who? It is an established fact that there is NO difference between Copts and Muslims ethnically or phenotypically.
Since when is Muslim a phenotype? Can you give us any specific characteristics to look for?
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Supposed by who? It is an established fact that there is NO difference between Copts and Muslims ethnically or phenotypically.
Where did you get this information from? The Copts have always said that they're the purest Egyptians and their heritage goes back to Ancient Egypt. Also, many native Egyptians can tell who is a Copt and who is not.
Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mau:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Supposed by who? It is an established fact that there is NO difference between Copts and Muslims ethnically or phenotypically.
Where did you get this information from? The Copts have always said that they're the purest Egyptians and their heritage goes back to Ancient Egypt. Also, many native Egyptians can tell who is a Copt and who is not.
I believe the Copts don't marry outside of their group either. That would make them pure Egyptians for at least two thousand years.
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
Coptic Tattoo Artist
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Mau, are you a Coptic Christian. I am actually one. Nobody in Egypt can tell the difference between a Copt or a Muslim. Coptic nationalist claim there is differences in phenotype but I have yet to see such a difference.
Simple Girl, do you realize that most Egyptian peasants Coptic and Muslim donot intermarry with outsiders? Their religion does forbid them from intermarrying with Muslims but it does not stop them from intermarrying with Lebanese,Armenians or Syrian christians.
If color is an issue to you khawagas then you must realize Copts and Muslims come in light and dark shades of brown. Some Muslims and Christians are ''European'' looking but the majority are not!!!!!!! Both groups have mixture with European and near eastern groups.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Not all Coptics are pale actually alot of them that i see in southern california are dark.
U should check out the Mountaintop Monestary that the Coptics have in San bernardino mountains i have been there one of the original aba of that monestary passed away a few years ago he was dark.
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mau:
Khaled Said ... Killed By Egyptian Police!
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Kyrillos is the last Egyptian born Archbishop of Ethiopia.
There are many Coptics that look kind of habesha
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Aswani, follow my link. I have posted diverse pictures of both Muslim and Coptic Egyptians. I am not in denial about the presence of pale Coptics but I notice nobody ever presents Coptic Christian in their true diversity. Kind of insulting.
Either way I donot agree with the argument that Coptic Christians are the purest representation of the ancient Egyptians. Its undeniable that Copts and Muslims have mixture from outside population and that includes pharaonic and post-pharaonic periods.
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Mau, are you a Coptic Christian. I am actually one. Nobody in Egypt can tell the difference between a Copt or a Muslim. Coptic nationalist claim there is differences in phenotype but I have yet to see such a difference.
Simple Girl, do you realize that most Egyptian peasants Coptic and Muslim donot intermarry with outsiders? Their religion does forbid them from intermarrying with Muslims but it does not stop them from intermarrying with Lebanese,Armenians or Syrian christians.
If color is an issue to you khawagas then you must realize Copts and Muslims come in light and dark shades of brown. Some Muslims and Christians are ''European'' looking but the majority are not!!!!!!! Both groups have mixture with European and near eastern groups.
ausar, you forgot to mention that many dark Egyptians are also mixed with Sudanese and Black Africans Slaves that were brought into Egypt by the Turks and Arabs. Remember that Cairo used to be one of biggest "Slave Markets" in the world.
It does not matter if I'm a Copt or not, but getting the facts straight is more important.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Mau, I could argue that the pale skinned Egyptians are mixed with the millions of white slaves brought into Egypt. White slaves were most desired by the elite. Most of the dark skinned Egyptians live in southern Egypt were the slave trade was non-existent. Plus most of the black African slaves brought into Cairo and Alexandria tended to be either slave soldiers or eunuchs. Neither left many offspring. The written records also account that important Sudanese women were not fertile and did not produce enough offspring to reproduce.
Otherwise, you cannot explain the dark skinned Copts that look no different than their Muslim counterparts.
Good luck writing off every dark skinned Egyptian as a slave or Sudanese.
Plus the rural Sa3eedi and fellahin would not intermarry with a slave. Most intermarry with their first cousin which has kept their bloodline pure.
Explain away all this if you wish khawaga.
______let me guess this coptic Christian is mixed with Sudanese or African slaves!!!!
I take the words of Ausar over what you say....To try and Claim dark skinned Egyptians are all mixed with Sudanese is something you will have to prove.
Go to this picture Thread to see lots of Egyptians and look and compare them to Sudanese:
You're going to be hard pressed to prove that all those Dark Egyptians are really mixed with sudanese.
Peace
Posted by Mau (Member # 18613) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Mau
I take the words of Ausar over what you say....To try and Claim dark skinned Egyptians are all mixed with Sudanese is something you will have to prove.
Go to this picture Thread to see lots of Egyptians and look and compare them to Sudanese:
You're going to be hard pressed to prove that all those Dark Egyptians are really mixed with sudanese.
Peace
I have a new thread that confirms the fact that thousands of Black Africans were imported into many Rural Egyptian towns to work the cotton plantations and some were used as soldiers.
King, you seem to be stuck on something that isn't factual at all.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mau:
quote:Originally posted by KING: Mau
I take the words of Ausar over what you say....To try and Claim dark skinned Egyptians are all mixed with Sudanese is something you will have to prove.
Go to this picture Thread to see lots of Egyptians and look and compare them to Sudanese:
You're going to be hard pressed to prove that all those Dark Egyptians are really mixed with sudanese.
Peace
I have a new thread that confirms the fact that thousands of Black Africans were imported into many Rural Egyptian towns to work the cotton plantations and some were used as soldiers.
King, you seem to be stuck on something that isn't factual at all.
If Modern Southern Egyptians are "dark" because of mixing with Sub Saharan slaves then who exactly were these people:?
I know you dont want to answer the question so go run away somewhere.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Many Beja and Nubians were taken to work in Al Ismā'īlīya on the suez canal.
Ausar i know many egyptians are mixed with outsiders. If u look very closely u can see the pharonic face in alot of pale egyptians as well. 2 me coptic represent the people before arabs and thats much closer to pharonic egypt,if u really think about it coptic christianity is very similar to Kemetic science.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
I think u all are mixing up what mau is really trying to say is that all egyptians have sudanic origins hahahahhahahhahahhahhhahha Elayla Elayla Ya Samra
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Aswan, Mau is Dirk. He/She is cherry picking images of Egyptian Copts to present a unbalanced perspective. The fact remains that both dark and pale skinned Copts exist. I accept both since they are my brothers and sisters. The same that Egyptian Muslim are as well.
Aswani, the fact that many foreigners were present amongst the early Coptic Christians is undeniable and cannot really be refuted. I have no personal agenda since I am a Coptic Christian myself. Elite Copts have European,Armenian and Lebanese admixture.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
I find the idea that somehow Sudanese slave somehow darkened the Egyptians but the same folks will claim the countless Euro-asian invaders and occupiers never once mixed with a Native Egyptian, Some how the Greeks, Persians, Romans, Turks, Arabs, Assyrians, French etc. could never lighten up the Delta and Cairian Egyptians Their phenotype just magically disappeared from Egypt but one small group of Sudanese somehow darkened all the black Egyptians.
Its Circular reasoning, Mau is nothing but Dirk8 the fake Abbasid Turk/Russian decended Egyptian who wants to steal the culture of Egypt from the Nile Valley Africans..
Expect more non sense threads and troll antics.
Ausar I hope you can censor any Troll antics from this fool that will follow in the future.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Aswan, Mau is Dirk. He/She is cherry picking images of Egyptian Copts to present a unbalanced perspective. The fact remains that both dark and pale skinned Copts exist. I accept both since they are my brothers and sisters. The same that Egyptian Muslim are as well.
Aswani, the fact that many foreigners were present amongst the early Coptic Christians is undeniable and cannot really be refuted. I have no personal agenda since I am a Coptic Christian myself. Elite Copts have European,Armenian and Lebanese admixture.
Indeed. Attempts to make dark skin somehow "foreign" to Egypt are a total failure.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL So Dirt A.K.A. Abozo of countless aliases is back! I see he utterly and totally failed debating a REAL Egyptian like Ausar (as is usually the case).
By Abozo's logic these ancient pharaohs below must also be descended from "Sudanese slaves" LMAO
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
What "Sudanese slaves"?! Mau says they were "African" slaves; by "African", it is anyone's guess where they supposedly came from.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
I come to the understanding that Mau is reflecting upon the arab conquest of egypt, and the distribution of slaves to Cairo.
My understanding of arabic islamic history is that slaves that were in egypt were on there ways to arabia,sudan,persia,and islamic parts of india.
According to Diop
The Arab conquests dear to sociologists are necessary to their theories but did not exist in reality. To this day no reliable historical documents substantiate such theories.
Mau there is no evidence showing any sudanic slaves coming into southern egypt and darkening the local population. If u really look at the population of southern egypt u would be a fool not to include those of northern sudan as well.
Give u example u think that those in Northern Ethiopia Tigray are not the same as those in Southern Eritrea or Highland Eritrea. Alot of borders are all messed up.
Mau if u are muslim then u should know that islamic documents about the slave trade is almost non existent.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Really? So the Muslim traders kept no record of their slaves? I find that hard to believe. Also, what racist idiots like Dirt keep "forgetting" is that the first major slave trade by Arabs were WHITE slaves from Anatolia, the Caucasus, and eastern Europe. Yet notice he NEVER says a word about white slaves lightening up Arabs let alone the Egyptian people.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: What "Sudanese slaves"?! Mau says they were "African" slaves; by "African", it is anyone's guess where they supposedly came from.
Of course Mow forgets that Egypt is IN Africa, making its peoples African as well.
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