The image shows Nuba people as captives, not Nubians. Nubian by the way is a cluster name. The Nuba are from central Africa/ South Sudan. Whereas Nubians are usually from Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan.
The fourteenth king of the 18th Dynasty was chief of the army during Tutankhamun’s reign. When Tutankhamun died, Ay succeeded the throne. Ay favored Horemheb and kept him on as a military leader.
When Ay died without an heir, Horemheb was made king. Restoring order was his main objective. Once accomplished, Horemheb moved to Memphis and began work on internal affairs. He returned properties of the temples to the rightful priests and lands to the rightful owners. He had restoration projects and building additions in Karnak. He erected shrines and a temple to Ptah. He built tombs at Thebes, in the Valley of the Kings, and Memphis.
He was noted for admonishing high ranking officials against cheating the poor and misappropriating the use of slaves and properties. He promised the death penalty for such offenses. Horemheb had no heir so he appointed a military leader to succeed him. Horemheb demolished monuments of Akhenaten, reusing their remains in his own building projects, and usurped monuments of Tutankhamun and Ay. Horemheb presumably remained childless and he appointed his vizier Paramesse as his successor, who would assume the throne as Ramesses I.Horemheb was a prolific builder who erected numerous temples and buildings throughout Egypt during his life-time. He constructed the Second, Ninth and Tenth Pylons of the Great Hypostyle Hall, in the Temple at Karnak.
At the South Wall of Horemheb's tomb One sees some foreigners there which could be a delegation, containing Libyans, Asians, Nubians (which one will find elsewhere in the monument) but also a man from the islands of the Aegean sea (or could be a Greek). One finds numerous references to his military action, which in fact made it possible Egypt to take again its influence in Syro-Palestine and Nubia. At the Southern wall On the right-hand side, Horemheb standing. Before him, an officer forces a Nubian chieftain to "smell the ground" as a sign of submissiveness. Behind, six officers observe the scene. Behind them again, long files of prisoners escorted by Egyptian soldiers, curiously represented on a smaller scale, who could be young recruits, of which one knows that Horemheb was the supreme person in charge. The military scribes, scrupulously record all the details. Some Nubian prisoners are seated on the ground while an Egyptian brings another captive, while hitting him on the chin (TC 06; TC 06bis). One block in the Museum of Bologna shows a similar scene.
How come we never see them? The Egyptians beat their asses too.
Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths. They don't look like the following people's features:
detail from Temple of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel
Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs. What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Because Euronuts love to associate slaves with 'blacks only' that's why.
But as far as the topic is concerned. The prisoners in the first scene are 'Nubian' yes since 'Nubia' is a generic term for the lands south of Egypt which the prisoners did come from; however, I don't know how Ish was able to determine their exact ethnicity such as whether they were Nuba or not. I mean there is nothing in that portrait to suggest one specific ethnic group or another or whether all the members in the group were part of the same ethnicity at all.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Djehuti seriously we need to drop this false notion of "Nubia" these were not generic people to the ancient Kemites,they knew who they were the fault lays not with them but with us moderns who choose not to look at them in depth so as to recognize who they were.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Lioness - the reason that these images are rarely seen, and why people with a certain phenotype are always called Nubians, is the same as why the historian Tacitus is rarely read. It exposes the lie of White history.
Note: all of these people are Black.
.
Question: If THESE people are Nubian
.
Then, who are THESE people?
Assyrian defeat of the Nubians - 25 dynasty. Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Kushites Puntites...............................................................................................Anu
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Mike look at this:
yes here we have Nubians and they have bigger noses.
Now on to this:
^^^Mike some of the the people you say were all black could easily be people you repeatedly call "sand niggers" or "Turks".
Now going to a different item:
Juba II of Mauritania
^^^^what's this? More blacks?
Mike, real talk, if the above person was rendered in a stone relief you would say he's black correct? If he were rendered in stone you could not distinguish him from a Persian or any number of people in the Mid East.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Another curiosity:
Where are the Arabs in Egyptian art?
.
Assyrian relief - Palace of Ashurbanipal
.
Is THIS an Arab?
.
Or is this?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Horemheb
Mike.....
Ramesses II
Mike.....
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Lioness, they didn't have Sand Niggers in those days.
BTW - If you weren't such a decrepit, lying, pasty-assed bitch, I might want to kiss you.
The reason to follow.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Establishing Identity
The scene informs us by hieroglyphic label as to who they are.
In front of (1) on top are the words "Princes of Lower Wawat", between (2) and (3) top is the label "Children of the princes of all the foreign lands." The discretely placed label in front of the chest of (1) adds an unusal element of familiarity in naming the individual: "Prince of Miam, Hekanefer."
Source:
Barry J. Kemp. Ancient Egypt: Anatomy Of A Civilization (2005), http://wysinger.homestead.com/tombofhuy.html The middle portion of the painting shows a Nubian noblewoman with a large floral headdress riding in an ox cart. Before her walk men carrying rings and bags of gold, brought as tribute to the Egyptian court. At the far left is a procession of manacled slaves followed by two grieving women with children. Some Nubians in the painting are wearing Egyptian wigs and robes while others are dressed in more typical Nubian clothing. The artist illustrates that the Nubian population was made up of a wide range of economic groups. This painting illustrates the key role that trade played, in the relationship between the two regions. A kneeling prince (at right image) leading the tribute bearers is identified as Hekanefer, Prince of Miam (modern Aniba), a region of northern Nubia. Hekanefer’s dress is Nubian. Details like the ostrich feather and panther skin he wears, along with other exotic products, serve to indicate that Nubia is the geographic source of these items.
except for the word Nubia being thrown about we can start finding out who these people supposed to be, and guys lets not make this into yet another one these are west Asians off color whites or off color blacks with the same ol pics and the same ol same ol lets try and ID these southerners.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
From previous Lioness post:
.
Juba II of Mauritania
Lioness, above I said that they didn't have "Sand Niggers" in those days. Of course a "Sand Nigger" is a Turk/Black Mulatto.
But that doesn't mean that they did not have MULATTOES!
Juba II of Numidia (52/50 BC-23) was a king of Numidia and then later moved to Mauretania. His first wife was Cleopatra Selene II, daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony.
Juba II was a prince of Berber descent (NOT Berber - Berber descent) from North Africa. He was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia. His mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa) and Numidia became a Roman Province. His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey.
Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship. Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology. He was raised by Julius Caesar and later by his great-nephew Octavian (future Emperor Caesar Augustus). Juba II while growing up, accompanied Octavian on military campaigns, gaining valuable experience as a leader. He fought alongside Octavian in the battle of Actium in 31 BC. Juba II and Octavian became longtime friends.
.
Lioness Juba II ------------------------------ Portrait of Juba II, Louvre Museum
Lioness - are you SURE this is the SAME Guy????
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
The different polities chiefdoms and Kingdoms that made up the south
These two theories have considerable implications. According to the first, Wawat, Setju and Irthet would each be small in territory and best described as chiefdoms. At one point, Harkhuf found them to be combined under a single ruler, but even then they would represent only a fairly small kingdom. However, in the second case, each territory would have been much larger, and if combined, would represent a substantial kingdom that could be quite threatening to southern Egypt, as well as creating substantial problems with access tot he desirable goods available in Yam.
Though we have some idea of where the Yam of Egypt's Old Kingdom might have been, its exact location remains a mystery with with obviously important implications. If indeed it was located in the Shendi Reach, which is archaeologically under-explored, future work in the region may supply us with some answers, and there is always the chance that excavations in Egypt may someday yield additional information. However, for now, we must contend ourselves with opposing theories and questions.
In later Egyptian history, the territory known as Yam disappears from the ancient textual sources. However, another place name, Irem, may be relevant. Irem is first attested during the New Kingdom, and it is possible that this name may apply to the same region. Irem was significant to Egypt's New Kingdom, which for over three centuries controlled all of Lower and much of, if not all of Upper Nubia. During the 19th and 20th Dynasties, and even earlier, there were periodical hostilities, sometimes on a large scale between Egypt and Irem. Also, in between the conflicts there was also peaceful trade and even tributary relationships between the two political regions.
Like Yam, scholars also disagree about the location of Irem and as with Yam, its location has serious geopolitical implications as concerns Egypt's relationship with Nubia. Some scholars would place Irem in Upper Nubia as one of several occasionally rebellious lands that nevertheless lay within the Egyptian empire. However, at least one campaign record of Seti I seems to indicate that Irem lay further south, or at least outside of Egyptian controlled Upper Nubia.
Once again, travel narratives provide intriguing, though not conclusive indications about Irem's location. Specifically, the famous trading expedition dispatched by Queen Hatshepsut to Punt, a country believed to be on the African shores of the Red Sea provide us with some clues to the location of Irem. Punt could have been in the general region of the modern frontier between the Sudan and Eritrea.
During this expedition, a joint party from Punt and Egypt went inland to collect the desired products. According to the reliefs recorded at Deir el-Bahri, this expedition crossed two zones. One of these regions included natives that appear to be different from those of Punt, and funa such as giraffe and rhinoceros that are more typical of savannah lands closer than punt to the Nile Valley. We also know that the products acquired by the expedition came from not only Punt, but Amu and Irem as well. Hence, it is possible that Amu or Irem or both were located in the savannah lands and close to or even on the Nile. Given Punt's possible location, this could place Irem, like Yam, on or near the Shendi Reach. However, it should be pointed out that this is somewhat of a reach, placing theory upon theory, as even Punt's location continues to be hotly debated.
White people have created whole industries to produce fake artifacts for White consumption, and to fool Blacks.
I love it when I can use your own Bullsh1t against you.
Love and kisses. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Mike who were the Tamahu?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Lioness - are you SURE this is the SAME Guy????
[/QB]
Mike did you ever realize that if a nose looks like a white person's nose and you break it off it looks more like a so called black person?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
He,he.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: He,he.
see I exposed the conspiracy to blackify white statuary by breaking the noses off. You've had it backwards all this time
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
WHITE MAN BULLSH1T!
Firstly, Numidia was an AREA not a kingdom, there were SEVERAL Kingdoms in Numidia.
Secondly, Numidia was ROMAN controlled, with 28,000 Roman soldiers. What, Berbers are going to allow Roman soldiers in their kingdoms?
Thirdly, what does any of this have to do with Berbers? Or for that matter, scientific establishment of fact?
Pure - WHITE MAN BULLSH1T!
From the Louvre
Juba I This face with its impressive head of hair is that of the Numidian king Juba I. The idealization of the features suggests the influence of Hellenistic royal portraits, indicating that this was a posthumous portrait made during the reign of the king's son Juba II (reputed for his Greco-Roman culture). Juba I appears to be deified in this portrait by a likening to Jupiter.
A striking countenance
This imperious face is that of a middle-aged man, whose most striking feature is his abundant hair, which forms a heavy mass of twisted curls, arranged in rows. He is wearing a headband, which was a sign of royalty. A splendid beard also frames his face, whose discreet signs of age contribute to the impression of authority that emanates from the figure.
King Juba I
When this head was discovered in 1895, it was immediately identified as a portrait of King Juba I. This suggestion was confirmed after comparison with coins, on which portraits of the king display the same thick hair (which had made a great an impression on Cicero). Juba I, king of Numidia (a North African kingdom corresponding to the eastern part of modern Algeria), went down in Roman history when he sided with Pompey's partisans in the conflict between the consul and Caesar. The latter's victory in Thapsus in 46 BC sounded the knell for Pompey's party in Africa; Juba I committed suicide, and his kingdom became a Roman province called Africa Nova. His son, the future Juba II, was taken to Rome where he was raised and educated.
A posthumous representation
The wrinkles on the sovereign's brow and the hollowed cheeks that accentuate his prominent cheekbones indicate his age, yet this portrait remains largely idealized. The noble features (those of a man in the prime of life) and headband around the hair come from the tradition of Hellenistic royal portraiture. This ideal character, strongly indebted to Greek art, suggests that the work was produced after the reign of Juba I. The portrait in the Louvre was probably a posthumous one, produced during the reign of Juba II, the sovereign whose Roman education left him steeped in Greco-Latin culture. He may therefore have honored his father by perhaps likening him to Jupiter.
Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23) This character with his royal headband is Juba II, sovereign of the Roman-ruled kingdom of Mauretania. Juba II was a scholarly prince who had been brought up at Caesar's court and was steeped in classical culture; his interest in Greek civilization is perceptible in this portrait, which owes a great deal to the Hellenistic sculptural tradition.
An aging prince
This full face portrait with high forehead and long, sunken cheeks, is framed by a mass of short, rather wild curls, held in place by a headband. The arch of the eyebrows overshadows the inner corner of the downward slanting eyes. The nose is broad, the mouth full and sensual, and there is a deep cleft in the chin. Despite the damage it has incurred, the features of this tired face are recognizable as those of Juba II at the age of about sixty. When the head was discovered it was immediately identified as such; this suggestion was confirmed after comparison with effigies on coins and other portraits of the prince, whose strong features, wide-set eyes, and thick hair are clearly recognizable.
Juba II
Subsequent to the defeat and suicide of the Numidian king Juba I in 46 BC, his son was taken to Rome where he was raised by the sister of Octavian Augustus. The latter married him to Cleopatra Selene, daughter of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, and granted him the regency of Mauretania (a territory comprising the western part of modern Algeria and Morocco). Juba II, who had been converted to classical culture by his Roman education, was a loyal vassal who did not betray the Roman cause. He settled in his capital Caesarea (modern Cherchell), whose very name was a homage to the master of Rome. More than anything he was an insatiably curious scholar and great art collector, who also wrote many historical and geographical treatises and organized scientific explorations to the Canary Islands and the sources of the Nile.
Hellenistic art
The classical culture of King Juba II is apparent in this portrait of the philhellenic king, which portrays him like a Hellenistic sovereign: beardless, short-haired, and wearing a royal headband. Hellenistic art also inspired the carefully modeled flesh and the idealization (which does not, however, overlook the subject's human qualities or ethnic group). Juba II apparently founded a very Hellenized artistic community in Caesarea, where excavations unearthed some impressive copies of Greek works (such as an Aphrodite, an Apollo, and a Demeter that are now conserved in Cherchell). Moreover, Juba II brought Greek artists from Egypt to his capital, thereby creating a school of sculpture that ensured the continuity of the Hellenistic sculptural tradition.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^To intelligent, non-White people. Doesn't it sound like Juba I was a GREEK!!!!!
And that his son Juba II was ALSO a GREEK, perhaps with a Berber mother????
How will we EVER get pass the WHITE MANS BULLSH1T? Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
MORE - WHITE MANS BULLSH1T!
Anybody EVER see White Greeks who looked like THIS????
Etruscan bowl circa 560 B.C. (A time when Blacks stilled ruled Italy.)
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^To intelligent, non-White people. Doesn't it sound like Juba I was a GREEK!!!!!
And that his son Juba II was ALSO a GREEK, perhaps with a Berber mother????
How will we EVER get pass the WHITE MANS BULLSH1T?
Mike are you suggesting Moorish of the first century AD leadership was Greek ?
You said the Greeks were predominantly white starting with the The Hellenic Period 500-300 BC
I am reporting to to Ironedlion
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
They could be from further south of Sudan. Something that Mary Lefkowitz points out:
quote:"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. Alternatively, the brown-skinned people may be of Nubian origin, and the black-skinned ones may be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb paintings, which varies considerably, may not be a certain criterion for distinguishing race. Specific symbols of ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying race in Egyptian representational art, again, is difficult to do- probably because race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians) was not a criterion for differentiation used by the ancient Egyptians...
--Mary Lefkowitz
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': They could be from further south of Sudan. Something that Mary Lefkowitz points out:
quote:"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. .
--Mary Lefkowitz
The Explorer has pointed this out. When there is an overlap they use two colors so the two figures don't blend into an octopus. If there is an overlap then the alternating,black brown pattern is used for all figures in the scene. It's an octopus-preventative. Elsewhere you may see people from South of Egypt portrayed as reddish brown. What you don't see is multiple Egyptian figures painted jet black. Also if you post in a thread created by a retard, there can be no question, you are also a retard. The difference is I am a savant and you are not.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Sicko Albinos. One knows NOTHING of North African history: and enjoys not knowing.
The other quotes the lying Jew Mary Lefkowitz, of "Not out of Africa fame": who could be refuted by high school students, and who also knows nothing about North African history or anything else for that matter.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^Do you disagree with my citation of Lefkowitz? if so, why?
I haven't read much of her work, but from what I've seen she can acknowledge the scientific evidence (e.g., that Egyptians came from the south)
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Djehuti seriously we need to drop this false notion of "Nubia" these were not generic people to the ancient Kemites, they knew who they were the fault lays not with them but with us moderns who choose not to look at them in depth so as to recognize who they were.
I never said the Kemites used the term "Nubia". Nubia is term coined by the Romans for the lands south of Egypt. The Egyptians used the term Nhsw but they distinguished the different peoples.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs.
What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Why do you keep repeating the same debunked nonsense over and over again?? Do you have a mental affliction or something? I'm guessing you have judging by your posts. First off, there is no such thing as "caucasoid". The term is an invalid one simply because it is based on falsified notions of superficial features. Most Ethiopians and Somalis are not prognastic in the jaw either and they also have small noses and small lips. In fact, I don't know where you get the notion that Horn Africans have "semitic" noses since such noses are long and hooked, while stereotypical Horn Africans have small short noses. And Egyptians do have long dolichocephalic heads which are more visible when they are bald and without wigs. You are obviously a delusional one. We've explained to you many times that Africa not just Egypt has a great variety of phenotypic diversity, yet your brains cannot accept this. Why??
Horemheb
Reconstructed Engraving from Horemheb's tomb by the University of St. Louis Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Can't really tell by this image but they seem to lack the scarification associated with Nuba folk.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The image shows Nuba people as captives, not Nubians. Nubian by the way is a cluster name. The Nuba are from central Africa/ South Sudan. Whereas Nubians are usually from Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan.
In this image I can't make out any scars on torso legs arms or face. Maybe the furrowed brows are actually forehead scars?
Will look into the hairstyles later.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The hairstyles are definitely southern Sudanese for I have seen Dinka and Nuer with such hairstyles which are also dyed red or blonde. I have also seen other portraits of southern foes with both hairstyles and scarification on the forehead and face.
False, And the seated statue of the God Horus and Horemheb in the Museum of Vienna has extensively been restored.
Extensive restorations in recent times were performed on this double statue. The outer arms and the feet and the left hand of the king, his beard, his nose and Horus's beak were added.
From the Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna, Egyptian - Oriental Collection Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
I believe I can make out scars on the forehead look at the last guy and the guy at the center Nuer That meant that these folks were much further north or the Kemites struck further south than we thought.
Posted by Siptah (Member # 17601) on :
@Lioness,
Concerning the reliefs you posted of Egyptians from the tomb of Horemheb, According to my observation, i see nothing majorly Caucasoid in the features of the majority of the Egyptians in a profile view unless i myself am mistaken and you can correct me.
The only one fitting such a description would be the person displayed the lower right of the 5th image and even then the person accommodating him to the left can certainly be considered Negroid.
As for your posted reliefs of the King himself, If we follow them and examine, his body type is gracile which is most certainly not Caucasian. Thats strike one against you and two for the fact that he exhibits notable protrusion in the mouth area and a flat nose.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: "Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths"
Small noses are not restricted to Caucasians and Caucasians on average do not have small noses from a profile view. They are measured to have one of the most relatively projecting noses from a profile view with a notable distance away from the mouth area out of all the giving races.
With regard to their mouth, there is a display of notable protrusion in the mouth area and the majority are most certainly not orthognathous distinguishing them from the vast majority of Caucasians.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: "They don't look like the following people's features"
The Ancient Egyptians may not look like them but they both share consistent relative features away from your Caucasian diagrams while being far more affiliated with each other including Sub Saharans.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either...They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either."
You have poor observation. The majority of them are prognostic including Horemheb. Ethiopians and Somali also exhibit prognathism.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type "
It amazes me how Eurocentrics persist on the expansion of Caucasoid type, going as far as to even group such accommodating features in the diagram markedly grouped with other Negroids of the diaspora than their own classification.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siptah: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
False, And the seated statue of the God Horus and Horemheb in the Museum of Vienna has extensively been restored.
Extensive restorations in recent times were performed on this double statue. The outer arms and the feet and the left hand of the king, his beard, his nose and Horus's beak were added.
From the Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna, Egyptian - Oriental Collection
You can see the repair work on the nose in the left photo. I was wondering why looked more bulbous than the relief at right.
Some of your other commentary was reasonable. It's hard to tell one way or the other.
Looking at this relief on the right again it is similar to the other Egyptian figures posted, scribes and soldiers, looking quite different from the "Nubian prisoners". It doesn't remind me of an African. However you posted a better picture, the one with the larger Egyptian figures and small Nubians. They look different but the Egyptians here do have some "Negroid" qualities in the lips. I am going to have to retreat to an I don't know position on them.
.
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Can't really tell by this image but they seem to lack the scarification associated with Nuba folk.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The image shows Nuba people as captives, not Nubians. Nubian by the way is a cluster name. The Nuba are from central Africa/ South Sudan. Whereas Nubians are usually from Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan.
In this image I can't make out any scars on torso legs arms or face. Maybe the furrowed brows are actually forehead scars?
Will look into the hairstyles later.
For whatever it's worth, ancient Upper Nubian (geo. area) Sudanese graves often contained lip plugs, not uncommon in Nuba folk.
Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach. Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork, and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use.
- THE NUBIAN PAST - David Edwards
I'm not too sure about identifications with Nuba people though. It's problematic.
Posted by Siptah (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: They look different but the Egyptians here do have some "Negroid" qualities in the lips.
Some? They either have it or they don't. What about their flat noses, the small blunt chin, notable protrusion of incisors ie; prognathism, etc?
If you admit there are Negroid qualities among the Egyptians in the reliefs from the tomb of Horemheb then what more is there to argue?
quote: I am going to have to retreat to an I don't know position on them.
As usual, like with your other threads. I wonder who they are.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
scars is not only southern sudanese custom,but nubians did too.so yes these are nubians.
quote- Living in villages and cities, many still practice customs from ancient Kush. MAN: The tribal scars you see on people's faces are of various types. ...
Ancient traditions
The following transcript includes both the text from the captions and a text version of the audio descriptions.
DESCRIPTION: Now, in the desert. A man on camel-back herds dozens of single-humped camels. A farmer walks with a herd of goats.
NARRATOR: The descendants of the Kushites are the Nubian people of southern Egypt and northern Sudan. Living in villages and cities, many still practice customs from ancient Kush.
MAN: The tribal scars you see on people's faces are of various types. The most common is three... three lines on each cheek. You see these same kinds of scars in the reliefs of the Meroitic period, worn by rulers 2,000 years ago.
NARRATOR: Many clues to the past can be better understood by looking to the present. The architectural design of Nubian homes, and the customs and practices of people living today, help scholars to reconstruct the past.
______________________________________________- oh,another point,the nuba is not a ethnic group.it's region with different ethnic groups and they are just called the nuba.the nuba is are made of of different ethnic groups and languages. some are nubian(hill nubians)most are not,but there are some that are nubian.there are nubians in darfur too.
quote-
Nuba is a collective term used here for the peoples who inhabit the Nuba Mountains, in Sudan, Africa. Although the term is used to describe them as if they composed a single group, the Nuba are multiple distinct peoples and speak different languages. Estimates of the Nuba population vary widely; the Sudanese government estimated that they numbered 1.07 million in 2003.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
Nubian Geographic distribution
Linguistic Classification: Nilo-Saharan Eastern Sudanic Astaboran
Nubian
Subdivisions Northern (Nobiin) - Central - central sudan- nuba hills/Kordofan Western (Midob) - western sudan
or The Nubian language group, according to the most recent research by Bechhaus-Gerst comprises the following varieties:
# Nobiin (previously known by the geographic terms Mahas or Fadicca/Fiadicca).
# Kenzi-Dongolawi. Kenzi (or Kenuzi) is spoken north of Mahas in Egypt while Dongolawi is spoken south of Mahas around Dongola; they are generally considered two varieties of one language. With population displacement due to the Aswan High Dam there are communities of Nubian speakers in Lower Egypt and in Eastern Sudan (Khashm el-Girba). Apart from these two dialects spoken along the Nile, three other dialects once existed.
# Midob (Meidob) in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
# Birgid - originally spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei until the 1970s. The last surviving aged speakers were interviewed by Thelwall at this time. Some equally aged speakers on Gezira Aba just north of Kosti on the Nile south of Khartoum were interviewed by Thelwall in 1980.
note- the last speakers of Birgid were in sudan,but in chad this nubian language still existed.the birgid still exist in sudan but the speak arabic first,but the culture is still nubian,so they are still nubians.
# Hill Nubian – a group of closely related dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains – in particular Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru.
The Dilling are a Sudanese group and one of the "Nuba" peoples. Their language is of the Nubian branch of the Nilo-Saharan family. The Dilling number several thousand and live mainly in South Kurdufan in the Nuba mountains. The Dilling language is partially arabized.
Nuba peoples
Nuba is a collective term used here for the peoples who inhabit the Nuba Mountains, in Sudan, Africa. Although the term is used to describe them as if they composed a single group, the Nuba are multiple distinct peoples and speak different languages. Estimates of the Nuba population vary widely; the Sudanese government estimated that they numbered 1.07 million in 2003.
Figure 1: Subclassification of Nubian
We can propose with some confidence that the centre of gravity and hence centre of dispersion lies outside the Nuba Mountains, perhaps in the Darfur-Kordofan boundary region. We have documents in Old Nubian from the Nile region south of the first cataract (Aswan) dating from perhaps the 7C AD and good reason for relating the Old Nubian of these documents more closely to present-day Nobiin (Mahas) than to any other present variety of Nubian. Behrens (1981) has even proposed a date as much as two thousand years earlier for the presence of Nubian speakers in this area, based on proposed Nubian loans in Egyptian. We also know that the late medieval Nubian kingdom of Alwa was in control of the Nile south of Soba (10 km south of Khartoum on the Blue Nile). Place name evidence (based on Survey Department maps made from observations at the beginning of this century) shows that Nubian names occur on the Nile and nearby as far south as Kosti, but how far back this presence goes is an open question. We can be confident it predates the Arabization of the Gezira, and so is probably not less than 500 years, but it may weIl be over 2000.
The indications mentioned above would point to a movement of pre-Nobiin speakers across the Bayuda desert to the Nile as long ago as 2000 years, and perhaps a parallel movement to the Nile around Kosti of pre-Dongolawi speakers, with their subsequent spread north to later link up with the Nobiin. The tribal map of the present day marks "Nubawi" over the area east and northeast of El Obeid, and it may be that Nubian speech has only disappeared in this area in the last hundred years (see Bell 1973).
We may thus assume a large zone from Darfur in the West to the Nile in the East in which Nubian was present during a long period. From this area some Nubians must have come to settle on the northern Nuba Mountains. Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell (1955) proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. _______________________________________________
Map 1: Language distribution in the Nuba Mountains
1. Kordofanian
2. Nyimang; Temein; Kadugli
3. Daju I: Shatt, Liguri
4. Hill Nubian
5. Daju II: Lagawa Map 2: The distribution of the Nubian and Daju language groups
_____________________________________________
Introduction
The Nuba are a group of peoples who share a common geography in Sudan’s Southern Kordofan Province, known as Jibal al-Nuba or Nuba Mountains. The origins of most Nuba peoples are obscure, but there is no doubt that they are Africans. They arrived to the area from various directions and in the course of thousands of years. Today there are over fifty Nuba tribes, who speak as many different languages. Their combined number is estimated at 2.5 million people.
2. The classification of Nuba languages
Maybe systematic archaeological research could shed more light on the origins of the Nuba people, but right now we will have to concentrate on linguistic findings. Linguistics is a complex field, not very sexy to be honest, but in many cases, it’s all we have. So we will first look at the classification of the different Nuba languages, and then move on to the question of who came to the Mountains at what time.
The Nuba Languages can be classified into members of two or perhaps three language families: Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian.
A. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla. Kordofanian languages are considered a branch of the Niger-Congo family, which encompasses all Bantu languages, and in general most of the languages spoken in Sub-Saharan Africa. The only thing is: Kordofanian doesn’t resemble any of the other Niger-Congo languages closely. It constitutes a group of its own and geographically also, Kordofanian is isolated. In other words: we don’t have a clue as to how these Kordofanian speaking Nuba ended up in the Nuba Mountain.
B. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli. It was earlier classified as part of Kordofanian but is currently considered part of Nilo-Saharan. This is another large phylum: Dinka and Nuer are Nilo-Saharan languages, and so are many languages of Chad and Congo, as well as several languages spoken in Nigeria.
C. The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called Eastern Sudanic. They consist of Hill Nubian, Daju, Timein and Nyimang. The tribes speaking Eastern Sudanic languages can be found in the north western areas of the Mountains.
Linguistic settlement As we’ve just seen in the case of the Nubian speakers, shifts in related languages can tell us something about how long ago the speakers of those languages went their own way. Unfortunately this is not very exact, as Robin Thellwall explained to me:
[the] reconstructions are based minimally on linguistic distance and extrapolated onto a fairly speculative time frame (glotto-chronology). Such a time framework is only a provisional and relative model to be tested against other evidence (archaeology, oral traditions, blood types, climate history, agricultural and animal husbandry terminology etc). This has not happened for the NubaMountains.
However, for ‘The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba in the Mountains’ Thelwall and Schadeberg analysed all the available data from the Nuba languages, and they came up with the following hypothesis regarding the relative chronology of the linguistic settlement of the Mountains:
1. Kordofanian language speakers came earlier than all the others 2. Nyimang; Temein and Kadugli language groups followed them 3. Daju speakers of Shatt and Liguri were next 4. Hill Nubian speakers – probably somewhere between 500 and 1400 AD 5. Daju speakers around Lagawa, who settled there relatively recently.
Kordofanian Heiban, Katla, Rashad and Talodi are the current names for the different groups of Kordofanian languages that cover the eastern half of the Nuba Mountains and a large part of the centre. Within the language group, differentiation has progressed much further than in the other Nuba language groups. According to R. Thelwall ‘the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.’ This means that you would have to go back at least 6000 years in time to find all Kordofanian speakers speaking the same language. Kordofanian is classified with the Niger-Congo languages, and the nearest Niger-Congo speaking people would be found over the border of Sudan in southern Chad, in Central African Republic and in the Congo. The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Congo is not clear. The current subdivision of Kordofanian is as follows:
I. Heiban is spoken in a large area that has a geographical centre in the town of Heiban. It can be subdivided in an eastern section, with Kau and Werni in the south-east; a central section with Koalib, Laro, Heiban, Otoro, Shwai and Logol, and a western section with Moro and Tira.
For these tribes, memory doesn’t reach back far enough to retain any information about the origins of the people. We might learn that the Nuba of Kau, who became world-famous through the photographs of Leni Riefenstahl, have been living in their present location for at least 200 years. According to J. C. Faris:
Oral traditions document that they were in place before the first Arab Movements into the area (c. 1800, see Cunnison, 1966: 3), and remains of surface habitation, genealogies, and linguistic separation from other of the Koalib-Moro language family all indicate an even greater time span.
But what does this mean? It could be 500 years; 2000 years… we don’t know.
The Tira have an idea of where they came from, but their place of origin is still within the Nuba Mountains, and the time frame is also rather limited: According to their traditions, the Tira people […] came originally from a place called Rila, said to have been situated between Sheibun and Kadugli […]. They left for unknown reasons to settle on Tomboro hill, in the Moro massif. This tradition is corroborated by the Moro, who still remember that Tomboro […] was inhabited by Tira […] at the time when the Moro first settled in that region. Driven from Tombore by the Arabs, the Tira migrated east, a few groups to Tira Lomon, the rest to Tira el Akhdar. This final migration too place only three generations ago […]. When the fathers and grandfathers of the present generation arrived in Tira they found there already three Tira clans living, speaking the language of the immigrants and possessing an identical culture.
In connection with Tira, it might be nice to include a story told by S. C. Dunn. Having researched gold washing practices in the Nuba Mountains, he writes that gold could be found mainly in Tira Mandi, with some small deposits in Dungur and Atoro. He also went to Sheibun, which was universally believed to be a place where gold was found…
[At Jebel Shwai] Sheikh Naser, his son and several elders […] described to me roughly the position of the pits at Sheibun […]. An old Nuba who knew and had worked at Sheibun was provided as a guide; and I departed for Sheibun. During six hours of climbing around the group of little hills […] I had been led to a little hole on the hill side where some fine white clay had been extracted, to an old rain water pond, to the sites of the old villages and to some mounds of mountain debris. I then said that in my opinion there was not and never had been either gold or gold-washing at Sheibun; and the policemen with me said that was exactly what the Shawabna had told them privately the day before yesterday. [No one told me, because they] thought I would be angry.
Sheibun did turn out to be the main market where the gold from Tira Mandi was sold though.
The Moro also have only a limited awareness of their history:
The ancient home of the Moro people was on Lebu hill, in the western massif [of the Moro area]. Growing too numerous, the tribe [split: one] group remained in Lebu; the second moved to the northern edge of the massif […]; the third migrated to [Umm Dorein]. At that time the eastern massif was still uninhabited. Three or four generations ago the Moro began to settle there […]. This migration […] was prompted by the pressure of population and the search for new lanf, better protected from the Arab raiders.
The Koalib have a tradition that says that: the northern Koalib lived originally in Kortala, side by side with [a tribe called] Nyemu. Arab (?) pressure drove the Nyemu to Jebel Dair, and some of the Koalib to their present habitat. In his 2003 Land Study, Simon Harragin writes: There is historical evidence that the Koalib were once resident on the plains much further west than their current position (Sagar, 1922: 138).Together with the Nyimang, the Koalib occupied the area around Dilling before Ghulfan and Kadaru drove a wedge between them. […] However, the historical claim mainly relies on oral history.
II. Katla, which holds both Katla and Tima, is spoken in the hills southwest of Dilling. I didn’t even find any sources related to their origin.
III. Rashad can be divided into three languages: Tegali, spoken in the Tegali hills, the Rashad hills and the town of Rashad; Tagoi, spoken in Tagoi, Moreb and Tumale, and Tingal, also in the Tegali Hills.
The Nuba of the Tegali kingdom are basically the only ones to have a documented history that goes back beyond the 19th century. It doesn’t provide any clues however, to their origins. The founding stories of the kingdom speak of a ‘wise stranger’ coming to Tegali and starting a dynasty – a common theme in Sudanese traditions . I will gladly get back to the kingdom in the next chapter.
IV. Talodi is a group of languages mainly found in the southern part of the Mountains. It can be devided into Lafofa on the central Eliri range and some adjacent hills, and a large Talodi proper group that can be broken down into four groups: Talodi is spoken in Talodi town and on Jebel Talodi; Eliri on the southern Eliri range; Masakin, with Dagik and Ngile as two separate languages, is spoken in the Masakin hills; in Buram, Reikha and Daloka, and finally Tocho, branched into Acherun, Limun and Tocho.
The first Nuba people to hit the coffee tables in an impressive book by Leni Riefenstahl, were the Masakin Qisar, as she calls them. Reifenstahl stayed with the Masakin on several occasions, for weeks or months, but she doesn’t seem to have inquired after their origin. To her, they were ‘Menschen wie von einem anderen Stern’: people that might just as well have come from another star. And of course, in a sense, that is true. We don’t know where the Masakin came from, just as we don’t know where the other Nuba from the Talodi group originated.
Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli
These three language groups are unique, like the Kordofanian languages, in the fact that they are only spoken in the Nuba Mountains. Judging from the large internal linguistic diversity within each group, the Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli speaking tribes might well have been in the Mountains for more than 2000 years. They seem to have come to the Nuba Mountains in tough times, with a lot of people on the move, losing touch with one another. In the words of Thellwal and Schadeberg:
All three groups have a reasonably compact distribution within the NubaMountains: Kadugli along the southwestern edge, Temein to the West, and Nyimang to the north. This suggests outside origins and immigration from these respective directions. Assuming that equal internal diversity corresponds to some roughly consistent time depth we may argue that at this particular time in history conditions prevailed in the NubaMountains which resulted in population scattering and reduced inter-group communication. As it is more likely that such conditions originated outside the refuge area we may further speculate that migration to the NubaMountains and diversification occurred in close historical union.
There is not an awful much to tell about the origins of each individual group, but let’s have a look at them anyway:
I. Nyimang is spoken by the people living on the seven hills of Nyimang: Salara, Tendiya, Kurmeti, Nitil, Fassu, Kelara and Kakara. It is also spoken by the people in the Mandal Hills and at Sobei, and by the more distantly related Afitti in Jebel Dair. The Nyimang call themselves Ama – ‘People’ – or ama mede kolat: people of the seven hills. Little is known about their origin, but S. F. Nadel reports that:
the tribe [migrated] from a country ‘in the west’, ‘beyond Tima and Abu Ginuk’, whose name is given as Kugya.
With R. C. Stevenson this becomes Kwuja or Kwija, which could be Kubja in the El Odaiya area. According to Stevenson the Nyimang:
say that they settled first in the eastern hillsof the Nyimang range – Nitil, Kurmiti and Fassu – which they found unoccupied, and only later pushed westwards to Tendia and Salara. [At Salara] they claim to have found the Kunit (one of the Hill Nubian groups) there and to have driven them north after a severe struggle.
The way the Hill Nubian tribes surround the Nyimang makes this scenario rather improbable. Stevenson remarks that it’s more likely that the Nyimang occupied a larger territory – stretching at least as far as Dilling, until the Hill Nubians arrived.
II. Temein is spoken in the Temein hills (north of Julud); the related Keiga and Teisei are found in Keiga Jirru (west of Debri) and Teisei um-Danab (north-east of Kadugli) respectively. There is nothing to tell about the origin of the Temein, except that:
the people of Keiga Jirru claim to have migrated from Temein in the ‘distant past’, and this is supported by Temein tradition which relates that the people of both Keiga Jirru and Teisei-Umm-Danab migrated during a time of famine.
III. Kadugli as a collective name is not really covering the large range of related languages that are grouped together here. Usually Kadugli is mentioned together with Katcha and Miri; they are so closely related that they could be considered dialects rather then separate languages. There are a number of Nuba languages put together with Kadugli-Miri-Katcha as ‘unclassified’ Nilo-Saharan languages: Tulishi, Kanga, Keiga, Korongo and Tumtum. They are clearly related to each other and to Kadugli-miri-Katcha, but the exact affiliation hasn’t been determined. R. C. Stevenson calls them the Kadugli-Krongo group:
[‘the area covered by the group is very widespread; running along the south-west, its limits are Tullishi in the west and Kurondi in the south-east.] The most important hill ranges are Miri, Kadugli and Krongo, after two of which the group has been named.’ 35 In recent publications the group is referred to as the Kadu languages; I will use this term for convenience.
There is not much to tell about the origins of the people speaking one of the Kadu languages: no one knows where they came from. The linguistic and cultural affiliation among the different tribes is clear though. G. Baumann, who spent 18 months among the Miri people, doing research, says:
The Miri form part of a larger cultural and linguistic unit known as the Kadugli-Krongo group. […] My own travels in the Kadugli-Krongo region produced a recurring impression of a common cultural heritage that encompassed not only linguistic affinity, but institutions, customs, verbal concepts, and sensitivities shared across boundaries. It is true that each of the Kadugli-Krongo communities has gone its own, different way in the processes of change over recent decades. [But] recent diversification has not as yet been able to obscure or supersede the shared cultural heritage of the neighbouring groups.
Relationships between the communities are usually recognised by the people themselves, and some myths of origin exist, but only for movements within the Nuba Mountains. S. F. Nadel recorded for example that the people of Korongo:
claim close cultural and linguistic affinity with [...] Tumtum on Jebel Talodi, Dere on Jebel Illiri, and three small hill groups in the west: Tesh, Fama and Shatt Safiya. [...] I have checked its truth in Talodi, Tesh and Fama. But the people of Shatt, as I discovered, have a different language and culture and are altogether of a different ethnic stock. The Korongo attribute this community of culture to the common origin of the today widely scattered groups. According to Korongo tradition, Jebel Tabuli, a large, now uninhabited, hill massif east of Korongo, was the ancient home of these different groups.
Another example can be given for the people of Tulishi:
The Tullishi people assert, with the rigidity of a dogma, that they have ‘always’ lived in their hills, unaffected by immigrations. […] The Tullishi people are fully aware of [the] affinity with Kamdang and Truj, but have no traditions of origin or past migrations which might attempt to explain this tribal kinship. They have such traditions with regard to the people of Miri (as also of Jebel Damik and Keiga), with whom they claim a common, or closely similar, language, and common clans. [They lived closely together once, but they split up after a dispute.] The Miri people, we may add, share the tradition of the ancient kinship of the two tribes.
This is confirmed by G. Baumann, who writes: The mythical link with Tulishi is quite universally recalled […]. Formerly, the Tulishi people lived here on top of a hill called Igyol. [They did something wrong] so they migrated to present home.
And that’s it as far as these the Nyimang, the Temein and the Kadugli language speaking Nuba are concerned.
Hill Nubian As discussed at length above, the Hill Nubian speaking tribes came to the Mountains from the North, probably before 1400 AD. The different languages are classified as follows:
Ghulfan and Kadaru are grouped together. Ghulfan is spoken in Ghulfan Kurgul and Ghulfan Morung; Kadaru in the hill communites of Kadaru, Kururu, Kafir, Kurtala, Dabatna and Kuldaji.
Dilling is spoken in the town and the surrounding villages
Dair, in the western and southern parts of Jebel Dair
Karko in the Karko Hills and Dulman; maybe also Abu Jinik and Tabaq.
Wali in the Wali Hills
Thelwall and Schadeberg can’t say more as to why or when exactly the Hill Nubians migrated south:
Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. The relative closeness of the Hi1l Nubian dialects to each other does not suggest the presence of isolated Nubian communities in these hills for several millennia.
It was probably a gradual process. R. C. Stevenson writes:
Nubian speech was brought to the northern NubaMountains by tribal movements accelerated by the Arab influx during the past few centuries. In Rüppell’s time (mid 1820s) it was still spoken on the plains south of El Obeid.
The most detailed account of how some of the Hill Nubians came to the Nuba Mountains is given by S. F. Nadel:
The Warke, or Dilling people, have preserved very clear traditions of their origin and past history. Originally, these traditions state, the tribe was living at Abdel Baka in the Ghadayat, under the ‘Sultans’ of that Kingdom, The Ghadayat are said to have been of Fung origin, and ethnically related to the Warke. Later Arab attacks forced the latter to emigrate. They moved first to Boti (now known as Sungikai) , then to Shirma, or Jebel Tukuma (ten miles east of Dilling), and finally to Dilling. The Ghadayat, in their old home, are said to have become ‘like Arabs’, while the Warke ‘became Nuba’. The ancient link, however, survived in the political sphere; the Dilling people remained tributary to the Sultans of Abdel Baka and still recognize, symbolically, their suzerainty […] The genealogy of Dilling chiefs mentions ten who already resided in Dilling. Their relationship is not remembered, but we may assume that their reign embraces a period of no less, and probably more, than 100 years.
The Daju speaking tribes
The Daju speaking tribes came to the Nuba Mountains from the west, from a Daju Kingdom that we know conveniently little about. The Kingdom was based, as early perhaps as 1200 AD, in Jebel Marrah, a rain-fed mountain range in an otherwise arid country. The Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. They were displaced by the Tunjur at the end of the fourteenth century, and left no records besides a list of kings that ends with King Kasi Furogé. The Daju were scattered by the Tunjur and we find them back in some isolated pockets across a wide area of Chad and Sudan, in the regions of Kordofan, Darfur, and Wadai.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
The term "Nubian" is but another example of the White Mans fallacious (lying) transmission of history.
My own quote: "How will we EVER get pass the WHITE MANS BULLSH1T?" Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': ^Do you disagree with my citation of Lefkowitz? if so, why?
I haven't read much of her work, but from what I've seen she can acknowledge the scientific evidence (e.g., that Egyptians came from the south)
It is axiomatic in human intercourse that one must always consider the source.
i.e. It is always dangerous to quote a "KNOWN" liar, because one never knows when or where the truth (if there is any) ends and the lie begins.
In the case of Mary Lefkowitz, the fact that she is a "KNOWN" liar is demonstrable in the fact that her work in the field is constantly proven false.
Furthermore, Lefkowitz earned her B.A. from Wellesley College in 1957 and received her Ph.D. in classical philology from Radcliffe College (now part of Harvard University) in 1961.
Therefore Lefkowitz is "COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED" to venture an opinion on GREEK, much less AFRICAN history.
But yet she had a successful book on the very SAME subject matter that she is "COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED" to speak on.
Proving two things:
She is a degenerate liar - like Lioness.
Jews have no regard for the truth. And their continued control of the worlds media is a very bad and dangerous thing.
Further, it may have been Jews who started these White myths about your beginnings. Look at the bullsh1t that they have filled Americans minds with, through their early control of Movies and Television.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I believe I can make out scars on the forehead look at the last guy and the guy at the center Nuer That meant that these folks were much further north or the Kemites struck further south than we thought.
I believe it to be the former-- that these folks were much further north originally. Both the Nuer and the closely related Dinka peoples once lived along the White Nile though unfortunately they inhabit the southern tributaries today due to the constant harassment and enslavement of 'Arab' northerners. Though both groups share folk traditions of an ancestral land even farther north. As Kalonji pointed out, many 'Nubiologists' (I hate that name) and other archaeologists think this may very well be the case judging from material remains in Upper Nubia that bear a striking resemblance to Dinka and Nuer material. Many scholars argue Upper Nubia to be the homeland of ancestral Western Nilotic which gave rise to both proto-Dinka-Nuer and proto-Luo. Unfortunately archaeology in Sudan is not as active as Egypt and ongoing political strife with the 'Arab' government hasn't made things better for investigation.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siptah: @Lioness,... You have poor observation...
Siptah, don't even bother. You are talking to the same idiot who thinks Tut below...
looks like this.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Mike- WTF? I asked why you took issue with Lefkowitz. But apparently you have issue with the person, not the statement.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Siptah: @Lioness,... You have poor observation...
Siptah, don't even bother. You are talking to the same idiot who thinks Tut below...
looks like this.
Djehuti, there are people who look similar in different parts of the world. In some cases they may have common ancestry in other case while looking the same they may have no common ancestry. Keita pointed this out in one of his lectures.
But you didn't say that. You just say that the above two don't look similar. That is just plain stupid and it shows your bias.
I have the ability to adapt to new information. You don't because you are trying to impress people.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Like hell you "adapt". You fail to understand any info we give you.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': They could be from further south of Sudan. Something that Mary Lefkowitz points out:
quote:"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. Alternatively, the brown-skinned people may be of Nubian origin, and the black-skinned ones may be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb paintings, which varies considerably, may not be a certain criterion for distinguishing race. Specific symbols of ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying race in Egyptian representational art, again, is difficult to do- probably because race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians) was not a criterion for differentiation used by the ancient Egyptians...
--Mary Lefkowitz
These groups are all nubians,egyptians did reach farther south for raiding.Egyptians could not take over southern nubia.
I believe the Nuer and Dinka ancestral homanlad was further north too,but i do not believe it was upper or southern nubia. some books i have read mention it was around the areas of the blue nile and white or just abit further south around the white and blue. closer to the ancient city of sennar in sudan.kushites and medieval nubians raided these areas for slaves.
That's one reason the south does not get to well with the north.of course the brainwash black arabs(former nubians) made things worse in modern times.
Anyway these are kushite/nubians of upper and southern nubia,not southern sudanese.This has been made clear by scholars,black or white already.
They tend to have on average round heads and darker skins on average then original lower nubians.later in kushite/nubian history they took over lower nubia,while the original population decline,went away or was taken to egypt arond the new kingdo period. the kushites moved right in later.
When Trigger means further south,he means the homeland of upper and southern nubia,since the areas resisted egyptian raids and conquest the most.kept mind when some of these scholars talk about nubia,they mean lower nubia and sometimes they just call upper and southern nubia thier original names.other times they call nubia(upper and southern).
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Asian prisoners
How come we never see them? The Egyptians beat their asses too.
Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths. They don't look like the following people's features:
detail from Temple of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel
Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs. What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Nice try, but the weren't Caucasians, hence indo-Aryans.
They were indigenous Africans. Clustering with other African populations. As studies have shown. So no, the were not a caucasiod type!
I have asked you and others have have you been to the region you speak of all day....you seem not being able to answer this simple question to my surprise.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': Like hell you "adapt". You fail to understand any info we give you.
They obviously can't comprehend the term adaption. They can't look beyond that. They think only folks outside of African have adapted to climate and circumstances.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mike look at this:
yes here we have Nubians and they have bigger noses.
Now on to this:
^^^Mike some of the the people you say were all black could easily be people you repeatedly call "sand niggers" or "Turks".
Now going to a different item:
Juba II of Mauritania
^^^^what's this? More blacks?
Mike, real talk, if the above person was rendered in a stone relief you would say he's black correct? If he were rendered in stone you could not distinguish him from a Persian or any number of people in the Mid East.
What is black about this man? He has a relatively dark complexion that's all. Like 80% of the world population. He is not Egyptian nor does he descent from the ancient Egyptains.
You keep trying day-in-day-out. But it all remains desperate attempts....Matilda!
Are nigritos Nuba people, now?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Siptah: @Lioness,... You have poor observation...
Siptah, don't even bother. You are talking to the same idiot who thinks Tut below...
looks like this.
Djehuti, there are people who look similar in different parts of the world. In some cases they may have common ancestry in other case while looking the same they may have no common ancestry. Keita pointed this out in one of his lectures.
But you didn't say that. You just say that the above two don't look similar. That is just plain stupid and it shows your bias.
I have the ability to adapt to new information. You don't because you are trying to impress people.
I don't know what your picture is suppose to mean, bit there are millions upon millions of young boys in Northeast Africa similar to Tut, even all throughout Africa!
Specially the case of malaria puts you in the corner.
From your stupid insertions all the time I know you have not traveled there.
You are clueless on this subject, no more words need to be said here
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Asian prisoners
How come we never see them? The Egyptians beat their asses too.
Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths. They don't look like the following people's features:
detail from Temple of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel
Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs. What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
The Temple of Abu Simbel is at Luxor, Nubia. The Temple was originally even further to the South. Actually in Sudan, as it is called now. But because the Nubians have this amnesty its considered South Egyptian....Go figure!
Have you ever seen the people living in that region and have been doing so for thousands of years. Right there at that spot!
You are stupid, you dumb idiot.
By the way it is forbidden to take picture inside that Temple. You folks with that racist fraudery.
Not be cause it was black on black crime they were separate from one another.
Greeks had wars and slavery amounghst each other. Even in recent times wars were being fought amongst Europeans. So does this mean that one group was somehow a different " race". I mean Germans look different from Frans, Dutch look different from Spanish, Britsh look different from East Europeans. And Europe is this tiny continent. Yet already has different climates from region to region. England and Holland are different, the South of Frans is different from the North. South Europe is totally different from North Europe.
Please consult a map! The Nile Valley Culture is as large as the entire of Europe!
Oh, by the way... Can you give me some references of the acient Greeks. On how they saw the ancient Egyptians.
And another thing need to mention is the funny insertion by Eurocerics on parallel inventions. It always goes when it comes to non-Africans, but Africans could not have created parallel inventions. Go figure, with that racist sh*t!
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
How come we never see them? The Egyptians beat their asses too.
Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths. They don't look like the following people's features:
detail from Temple of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel
Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs. What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
To this...^ I'm am in a rush....I am out of here for now....
Plus a lot (most) of Africans don't have these facial features, than again what the hell do you know?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Sorry for my typos I made in the previous posts, as I mentioned earlier this day, I was in a rush.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Djehuti, there are people who look similar in different parts of the world. In some cases they may have common ancestry in other case while looking the same they may have no common ancestry. Keita pointed this out in one of his lectures.
Twit, I've known about this fact of phenotypic diversity long before I even heard of Keita, and I've even pointed this out many times in this forum long before your dumbass even showed up!
quote:But you didn't say that. You just say that the above two don't look similar. That is just plain stupid and it shows your bias.
Uh... the bust of Tut and that Indian boy DON'T look similar, yet I remember you insisting they did in several threads. One is a black man the other is not, yet you were the one to make a comparison as part of your idiot argument that the Egyptians were of Indian ancestry.
quote:I have the ability to adapt to new information. You don't because you are trying to impress people.
ROTFLMAO
Nope. You are just as delusional as you are stupid. This must explain your constant and outrageous lies.
quote:Originally posted by L': Like hell you "adapt". You fail to understand any info we give you.
Indeed, while at the same time putting forth conjectures not based on anything substantial rather than her own fancies.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: To this...^ I'm am in a rush....I am out of here for now....
Plus a lot (most) of Africans don't have these facial features, than again what the hell do you know?
True, yet this hasn't stopped the racialists and "biodiversity" loons from using the woman above as a model of what a true pure-blooded African "negroid" should look like.
This is the same as stating all east Asians should look like Lucy Liu.
LOL Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: To this...^ I'm am in a rush....I am out of here for now....
Plus a lot (most) of Africans don't have these facial features, than again what the hell do you know?
True, yet this hasn't stopped the racialists and "biodiversity" loons from using the woman above as a model of what a true pure-blooded African "negroid" should look like.
This is the same as stating all east Asians should look like Lucy Liu.
LOL
Yeah, but the funnies part is that Abu Simbel is in the far South. And originally was in what we call today Sudan. The nuttjob did not realize that this place referred to as Nubia nowadays. And the people with the so-called small feutures are actually the Nubians and other native ethnic groups/ tribes as we know them today. In all there diversity.
- The children there always call me Ramses. And whites are like huh, he looks so similar, resurrected? (And I am about to unleash my powers!)
*And on the other note. A lot of archeological findings have been taken from the South- to the North, at Cairo Museum. From where the culture sprung/ arose/ started and still remains alive in many ways. the people are very aware.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: To this...^ I'm am in a rush....I am out of here for now....
Plus a lot (most) of Africans don't have these facial features, than again what the hell do you know?
True, yet this hasn't stopped the racialists and "biodiversity" loons from using the woman above as a model of what a true pure-blooded African "negroid" should look like.
This is the same as stating all east Asians should look like Lucy Liu.
LOL
Yup, and most indigenous/ native Americans don't look like the Olmec either. In fact not at all.
They build lies upon lies.
So, they mention that haplo E* arose in Northeast Africa. Than this means that all Africans came from Northeast Africa and are originally from Northeast Africa. As the paragroup E* is carried by the oldest people alive, known as so-called negriod.
Yet the possibility is "still" open they say that E* arose in the Middle East. This means that all Africans came from the Middle "East". This would mean that Mr. Elijah.M was right about the Asiatic Black man and his history.
By the way if this is the "Middle of the "East", than what and where is the West of this East? In historical essence it can't be Europe. So what is it?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Typo^ there = in all their diversity.
This is the actual statue of Brother Tut in it's original state, as found by Howard Carter. Yet they managed to created a totally different creature, again to mislead and deceive like the devil. Y'all know what I am talking about.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: He,he.
see I exposed the conspiracy to blackify white statuary by breaking the noses off. You've had it backwards all this time
Where in Africa do we find the darkest Africans in color complexion; bluish-black, as they are depicted in black/ brown, in the ancient hieroglyphs. Mhmmm....where?
Some of the tribes mentioned above are big and compromise within themselves several smaller subgroups. Keiga, Tira,Ghulfan, Korongo are the best examples for such complexity. Go figure.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Now according to genetics the Nuba and such as the Koi are carriers of haplogroup A*. They life in the South.
And according to what the ancient Egyptians state they originally came from the South. The South is where the Gods remained. Hence the first in creation?
So we have language, as a new study comprises the click language as the origin of all languages. We have the Ishango ( Ish Hango) Bone, we have the oldest Human remains and the oldest haplotype amongst mankind A* and B*. All at the South.
You are welcome to add more to the list, thanks in advance.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
"Isidore of Seville, who died well before Islam came to Iberia, follows Roman usage in referring to northwest Africa as Mauritania (from which maurus/moro is derived) on account, he says, of its inhabitants **blackness**."
An elegiac passage from the thirteenth century Primera cronica general (chapter 559 General Chronicle of Spain) recounts the events of 711 fro what is construed as the (temporary) downfall of "Spain" in that year. The text testifies that semantic transformation of "Moor" was not nearly as benign as some readers have assumed:
"their faces were black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot, and thei eyes blazed like fire; their horses swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel and hurtful than the wolf that comes at night to the flock of sheep. The vile African people...."
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: who were the Tamahu?
Not the people who found and flourished ancient the Nile Valley culture. In fact the were considered the enemy who invaded "African" space.
*Asiatics can be translated as indo-Aryans. Which I think is more proper.
Where we go...
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)
Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...
Ish Gebor - Punic means Phoenician, Juba was obviously NOT Phoenician. (the bronze bust is obviously a fake - more White man fantasy)
He was however, If the plaster bust is correct, probably a Greek/Berber Mulatto.
Such Mulattoes are common, even today!
.
The father ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Son. Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mike who were the Tamahu?
Lioness, who loves you?
After three days, still no one has bothered to educate you - only me.
Still think I hate Albinos?
It's not Tamahu dear - stay away from Wiki.
It's Tjehenu or Tehenu.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by L': ^Do you disagree with my citation of Lefkowitz? if so, why?
I haven't read much of her work, but from what I've seen she can acknowledge the scientific evidence (e.g., that Egyptians came from the south)
It is axiomatic in human intercourse that one must always consider the source.
i.e. It is always dangerous to quote a "KNOWN" liar, because one never knows when or where the truth (if there is any) ends and the lie begins.
In the case of Mary Lefkowitz, the fact that she is a "KNOWN" liar is demonstrable in the fact that her work in the field is constantly proven false.
Furthermore, Lefkowitz earned her B.A. from Wellesley College in 1957 and received her Ph.D. in classical philology from Radcliffe College (now part of Harvard University) in 1961.
Therefore Lefkowitz is "COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED" to venture an opinion on GREEK, much less AFRICAN history.
But yet she had a successful book on the very SAME subject matter that she is "COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED" to speak on.
Proving two things:
She is a degenerate liar - like Lioness.
Jews have no regard for the truth. And their continued control of the worlds media is a very bad and dangerous thing.
Further, it may have been Jews who started these White myths about your beginnings. Look at the bullsh1t that they have filled Americans minds with, through their early control of Movies and Television.
True, and you can easily see the influence these lying Jews falsehoods have on even the young poster's on this site and everywhere else around the world.
Lefkowitz's rebuttal to Bernal was funded by the New York Jews via the Right Wing Think Tank in America that the Jews control. Same one that funded and promoted The Bell Curve.
As I recall, she received something like $50K in advance and completed the crap in less than a year.
I think that constant and repetitive lying must be an unexplored symptom of extreme albinism (depression) since they all seem to do it constantly.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: True, and you can easily see the influence these lying Jews falsehoods have on even the young poster's on this site and everywhere else around the world.
Lefkowitz's rebuttal to Bernal was funded by the New York Jews via the Right Wing Think Tank in America that the Jews control. Same one that funded and promoted The Bell Curve.
what is the name of the think tank and documentation that she was funded by it?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: who were the Tamahu?
Not the people who found and flourished ancient the Nile Valley culture. In fact the were considered the enemy who invaded "African" space.
*Asiatics can be translated as indo-Aryans. Which I think is more proper.
I am confused by your reply. You said Indo-Aryans. What is photo above representing?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Lioness - "what is the name of the think tank and documentation that she was funded by it?"
Lioness dear, don't you know... Like say, the back of your hand?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Ish Gebor - Punic means Phoenician, Juba was obviously NOT Phoenician.
why do think Juba II was not Phoenician?
same guy below with nose broken off making it look flatter:
__________________________________________ Juba II coin
you idiots don't recognize foreign incursion into Africa when it slaps you in the face?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
who were the Tamahu?
Not the people who found and flourished ancient the Nile Valley culture. In fact the were considered the enemy who invaded "African" space.
*Asiatics can be translated as indo-Aryans. Which I think is more proper.
On what grounds? I've also come across a number of crackpot claims about the Tamahou being "berbers", as though it is truth to be taken for granted, without the need for issuing proof.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
who were the Tamahu?
Not the people who found and flourished ancient the Nile Valley culture. In fact the were considered the enemy who invaded "African" space.
*Asiatics can be translated as indo-Aryans. Which I think is more proper.
On what grounds? I've also come across a number of crackpot claims about the Tamahou being "berbers", as though it is truth to be taken for granted, without the need for issuing proof.
who do you think the Tamahou were?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Yet the possibility is "still" open they say that E* arose in the Middle East.
Anything is "possible" in the imaginative world, but the question is, said possibility is "still open" according to what evidence?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: who were the Tamahu?
Not the people who found and flourished ancient the Nile Valley culture. In fact the were considered the enemy who invaded "African" space.
*Asiatics can be translated as indo-Aryans. Which I think is more proper.
I am confused by your reply. You said Indo-Aryans. What is photo above representing?
The above are indigenous Libyans like the have been for thousands of years. As I have shown. So asking who they are only puts you in the corner again. With stupid questions.
And for your other question, it was explained. Its just that its not what you like to read/ hear, they are invaders plain and simple.
By the way you and your lil' click/ organization etc....are meaningless. You are not the founders/ originators or the descendants. Your history is in the forest and the caves of Europe. That is your history!
When are you going to answer my questions....?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Ish Gebor - Punic means Phoenician, Juba was obviously NOT Phoenician.
why do think Juba II was not Phoenician?
same guy below with nose broken off making it look flatter:
__________________________________________ Juba II coin
you idiots don't recognize foreign incursion into Africa when it slaps you in the face?
incursion or invasion what is the difference?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Yet the possibility is "still" open they say that E* arose in the Middle East.
Anything is "possible" in the imaginative world, but the question is, said possibility is "still open" according to what evidence?
I don't know what their evidence is or have they came to that conclusion. But what they say is that DE* arose in the Middle East therefore E* must have arisen in the Middle East.
Through a YAP insertion.
Funny is that those with the parahaplo DE* tend to look very similar. Not the same but close.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Edit: DE* has actually been found in six Africans but only one non-African, and YAP+ reaches its highest frequencies in Africa. In Asia it is restricted geographically according to Hong Shi et al. Not to mention it is 65,000 years old. So no... it didn't originate in Asia. As Underhill and Kivislid (2008) showed, DE and CT have African origins
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I don't know what their evidence is or have they came to that conclusion. But what they say is that DE* arose in the Middle East therefore E* must have arisen in the Middle East.
I tend to not give currency to hearsay that is based on someone's personal opinion and not on concrete evidence. Secondly, it is important to specify who "they" [although I personally have a clue about who "they" could be] are supposed to be, since their conclusion is not the consensus, and is clearly different from conclusions drawn elsewhere.
quote: Through a YAP insertion.
The "Middle East" lacks clades that have YAP insertion but characterized by ancestral loci where DE sub-clades are in their polymorphic states. Therefore the YAP insertion could not possibly be the basis for these opinions.
quote: Funny is that those with the parahaplo DE* tend to look very similar. Not the same but close.
It is not unheard of to have paraphyletic clades differing from one another by one mutation or another, yet still distinct from the establish markers. The important feature to note here, is that paraphyletic DE* has more diversity in its African distribution than anywhere, which should hint on its more plausible origins here than any other location.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: True, and you can easily see the influence these lying Jews falsehoods have on even the young poster's on this site and everywhere else around the world.
Lefkowitz's rebuttal to Bernal was funded by the New York Jews via the Right Wing Think Tank in America that the Jews control. Same one that funded and promoted The Bell Curve.
what is the name of the think tank and documentation that she was funded by it?
Both events took place during the same time. It would be nice to summarize a list of these events. Specially this attack on blacks in education. I think there is a continuity!
It dates back to slavery, when blacks were not allowed to read and write, then came the paranoid insertion brown vs the board. And after that ...it's Afrocentric this that ......blah blah....not real academic....this...that...
quote:Originally posted by L': Edit: DE* has actually been found in TWO Africans but only one non-African, and YAP+ reaches its highest frequencies in Africa. In Asia it is restricted geographically according to Hong Shi et al. Not to mention it is 65,000 years old. So no... it didn't originate in Asia. As Underhill and Kivislid (2008) showed, DE and CT have African origins
Do you have the actual paper. So I can download it to my IPad.
For some reason some of these organizations keep mentioning that it's origin is in the Middle East. Or likely to be there.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I don't know what their evidence is or have they came to that conclusion. But what they say is that DE* arose in the Middle East therefore E* must have arisen in the Middle East.
I tend to not give currency to hearsay that is based on someone's personal opinion and not on concrete evidence. Secondly, it is important to specify who "they" [although I personally have a clue about who "they" could be] are supposed to be, since their conclusion is not the
consensus, and is clearly different from conclusions drawn elsewhere.
quote: Through a YAP insertion.
The "Middle East" lacks clades that have YAP insertion but characterized by ancestral loci where DE sub-clades are in their polymorphic states. Therefore the YAP insertion could not possibly be the basis for these opinions.
quote: Funny is that those with the parahaplo DE* tend to look very similar. Not the same but close.
It is not unheard of to have paraphyletic clades differing from one another by one mutation or another, yet still distinct from the establish markers. The important feature to note here, is that paraphyletic DE* has more diversity in its African distribution than anywhere, which should hint on its more plausible origins here than any other location.
Ok, thanks for the additional info.
Orginazations such as ISOGG and others hold up this claim I mentioned earlier, in my previous post.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Upon re-reading, I forgot that DE* was found in five Nigerians, my bad.
quote:Orginazations such as ISOGG and others hold up this claim I mentioned earlier, in my previous post.
Really? Strange. The only article I can recall that supported such a thing in the last few years was Chandrasker, who was contradicted by Hammer (2008)
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Ok, thanks for the additional info.
Orginazations such as ISOGG and others hold up this claim I mentioned earlier, in my previous post.
ISOGG does not claim that the "Middle Eastern" origin of hg E is the consensus. Like you, they merely took a hodge podge of studies, and parroted conjectural opinions made elsewhere. The ISOGG also get their information through third party or secondary sourcing.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: On what grounds? I've also come across a number of crackpot claims about the Tamahou being "berbers", as though it is truth to be taken for granted, without the need for issuing proof.
The Tjehenu/Tehenu were Berbers.
The Merneptah Stele The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!" Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head: Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive with all woe.
The Tale of Sinuhe Now His Majesty had despatched an army to the land of the Temhi, and his eldest son was the captain thereof, the good god Sesostris. Even now he was returning, having carried away captives of the Tehenu and cattle of all kinds beyond number.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': Underhill and Kivislid (2008):
Upon re-reading, I forgot that DE* was found in five Nigerians, my bad.
quote:Orginazations such as ISOGG and others hold up this claim I mentioned earlier, in my previous post.
Really? Strange. The only article I can recall that supported such a thing in the last few years was Chandrasker, who was contradicted by Hammer (2008)
Yes, I was surprised as well, I even think it was changed recently. Since I can't remember it being different.
Thanks very much the posts.
I am not going to read them now. Because I bought an MPC-5000 earlier this day. And I am busy on that thang' for now, tomorrow will suite better. But thanks for the effort.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Careful what you all say about YAP people.
I'm a YAP
And so are these people.
.
And this is what we say to people who don't like us YAPers.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
On what grounds? I've also come across a number of crackpot claims about the Tamahou being "berbers", as though it is truth to be taken for granted, without the need for issuing proof.
The Tjehenu/Tehenu were Berbers.
The Merneptah Stele The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!" Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head: Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive with all woe.
The Tale of Sinuhe Now His Majesty had despatched an army to the land of the Temhi, and his eldest son was the captain thereof, the good god Sesostris. Even now he was returning, having carried away captives of the Tehenu and cattle of all kinds beyond number
First of all, the question was on the Tamahou, not the Tehenou. Secondly, how do you know the Tehenou were "berbers"?
And I ask again: The Tamahou were "berbers" on what grounds?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
The Explorer - Is it that time of the month? Certainly seems so. Anyway there are NO people called Tamahu or Tamahou. Those are misspellings of Tjehenu. The rest you will have to look-up for yourself.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Mikey mouse, I don't have time for your baby jives. You either answer my question or just fucking refrain from replying me. You are making the choice in terms of how you would like to be dealt with from this point on, if you continue playing games with me.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Ooh The Explorer, you're such a Brute, I just messed my pants.
.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
mickey mouse, fock off, and go and play with your kid's meal toy. Let the adults continue their conversation. This is no place for some under-parented toddler who logs onto the net just to browse for morning cartoon show characters.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Mikey and Lyinass are two of a kind, both delusional trolls trying to spread their crooked agendas.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Yup, and most indigenous/ native Americans don't look like the Olmec either. In fact not at all.
That depends which Native Americans you speak of.
quote:They build lies upon lies.
So, they mention that haplo E* arose in Northeast Africa. Than this means that all Africans came from Northeast Africa and are originally from Northeast Africa. As the paragroup E* is carried by the oldest people alive, known as so-called negriod.
Yet the possibility is "still" open they say that E* arose in the Middle East. This means that all Africans came from the Middle "East". This would mean that Mr. Elijah.M was right about the Asiatic Black man and his history.
By the way if this is the "Middle of the "East", than what and where is the West of this East? In historical essence it can't be Europe. So what is it?
Actually haplogroup E1b1ba arose in northeast Africa along the Egyptian-Sudanese border to be specific. That they call this "Middle Eastern" is another attempt at obfuscation and ruse. The parent of E1b1ba which is E1b1b* likely originated in the Horn of Africa as it has its highest frequency among Somalis and its ancestor E1b1* is high in Ethiopia. The ancestor of E1b1*, E1b* has not been found as far as I know yet its ancestor is found at its highest frequency among South Africans. E* the great ancestor was found among one South African Bantu and several Pygmies, and only two individuals in Saudi Arabia. The two in Saudi Arabia who are likely of African descent themselves do not make a convincing case of Eurasian origin. As explained here.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Mikey and Lyinass are two of a kind, both delusional trolls trying to spread their crooked agendas.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Yup, and most indigenous/ native Americans don't look like the Olmec either. In fact not at all.
That depends which Native Americans you speak of.
quote:They build lies upon lies.
So, they mention that haplo E* arose in Northeast Africa. Than this means that all Africans came from Northeast Africa and are originally from Northeast Africa. As the paragroup E* is carried by the oldest people alive, known as so-called negriod.
Yet the possibility is "still" open they say that E* arose in the Middle East. This means that all Africans came from the Middle "East". This would mean that Mr. Elijah.M was right about the Asiatic Black man and his history.
By the way if this is the "Middle of the "East", than what and where is the West of this East? In historical essence it can't be Europe. So what is it?
Actually haplogroup E1b1ba arose in northeast Africa along the Egyptian-Sudanese border to be specific. That they call this "Middle Eastern" is another attempt at obfuscation and ruse. The parent of E1b1ba which is E1b1b* likely originated in the Horn of Africa as it has its highest frequency among Somalis and its ancestor E1b1* is high in Ethiopia. The ancestor of E1b1*, E1b* has not been found as far as I know yet its ancestor is found at its highest frequency among South Africans. E* the great ancestor was found among one South African Bantu and several Pygmies, and only two individuals in Saudi Arabia. The two in Saudi Arabia who are likely of African descent themselves do not make a convincing case of Eurasian origin. As explained here.
I am aware of what you wrote, but what these organizations indicate is that; "Y-DNA haplogroup E would appear to have arisen in Northeast Africa based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today."
"But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration.".
This is what people tend to see and read only. Which could be misleading.
So the inquestion is, why are they implementing such behavior. And more of them carry on this theory. Almost as if they reject certain scholars and studies.
Therefore I brought up the theory as I did. If what they claim..., it means and confirms the Mr. Elijah was correct.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Several Siblings of D are in Africa. DE* has been found in 6 Africans but only one Asian, and E is nearly the same age as D. Issog seems a bit biased imo, that bit about hg D is just sooo unsound. I suggest refraining from isogg, they'll just cause confusion. Read all of the articles and they will all support an African origin. (See: Underhill and Kivislid 2008; Karafret et al. 2008)
Notice they say E arose in NE Africa. Last I checked NE Africa isn't even a candidate, East Africa is the place of origin. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
It will help to understand that Eurocentrists sometimes even include sub-Saharan eastern Africa into "northeast Africa", when it suits the ideological occasion being promoted. Haplogroup E is not as diverse in northeastern Africa as it is in sub-Saharan Africa by any stretch of the imagination. If the ISOGG is not guilty of the aforementioned political gymnastics with geography, then they may very well be confusing E1b1b1a (E-M78) with the macrohaplogroup E.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^I would like to think it was simply confusion. But I think the first possibility you listed is more likely. Just as you pointed out to me before when the article on haplogroup T listed Ethiopia as north Africa. Indeed, I have come across many people who were of the Euro-centric mindset who thought Ethiopia and Somalia were in north Africa. Must be apart of their disease Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': Several Siblings of D are in Africa. DE* has been found in 6 Africans but only one Asian, and E is nearly the same age as D. Issog seems a bit biased imo, that bit about hg D is just sooo unsound. I suggest refraining from isogg, they'll just cause confusion. Read all of the articles and they will all support an African origin. (See: Underhill and Kivislid 2008; Karafret et al. 2008)
Notice they say E arose in NE Africa. Last I checked NE Africa isn't even a candidate, East Africa is the place of origin.
Yes I have noticed so, but my trouble here is the second paragraph.
This is what some people cling on to.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': Several Siblings of D are in Africa. DE* has been found in 6 Africans but only one Asian, and E is nearly the same age as D. Issog seems a bit biased imo, that bit about hg D is just sooo unsound. I suggest refraining from isogg, they'll just cause confusion. Read all of the articles and they will all support an African origin. (See: Underhill and Kivislid 2008; Karafret et al. 2008)
Notice they say E arose in NE Africa. Last I checked NE Africa isn't even a candidate, East Africa is the place of origin.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It will help to understand that Eurocentrists sometimes even include sub-Saharan eastern Africa into "northeast Africa", when it suits the ideological occasion being promoted. Haplogroup E is not as diverse in northeastern Africa as it is in sub-Saharan Africa by any stretch of the imagination. If the ISOGG is not guilty of the aforementioned political gymnastics with geography, then they may very well be confusing E1b1b1a (E-M78) with the macrohaplogroup E.
Am J Hum Biol. 2008 Mar-Apr;20(2):185-90. The Y-chromosome short tandem repeats variation within haplogroup E3b: evidence of recurrent mutation in SNP.
Recurrent mutation in SNPs within Y chromosome E3b (E-M215) haplogroup: A rebuttal
Fulvio Cruciani1, Beniamino Trombetta1, Andrea Novelletto2, Rosaria Scozzari1,*
DOI: 10.1002/ajhb.20790
American Journal of Human Biology Volume 20, Issue 5, pages 614–616, September/October 2008
Abstract
In a previous issue of AJHB, Fernandes et al. (2008. Am J Hum Biol 20:185–190.) describe instances of identity by state at multiple short tandem repeat loci between human Y chromosomes belonging to different E-M35 sub-haplogroups. They interpret these findings as evidence for multiple mutational events in at least two loci (M78 and M81). Here, we introduce a novel polymorphic marker (V68), potentially useful to investigate the issue. This marker and sequence data, reported here for the first time, reinforce our previous interpretations on the phylogenetic structure of the E3b haplogroup. We discuss these results in the frame of general approaches to attain robust phylogenetic inferences based on biallelic polymorphism data. Am. J. Hum. Biol., 2008.
quote:Originally posted by L': ^I would like to think it was simply confusion. But I think the first possibility you listed is more likely. Just as you pointed out to me before when the article on haplogroup T listed Ethiopia as north Africa. Indeed, I have come across many people who were of the Euro-centric mindset who thought Ethiopia and Somalia were in north Africa. Must be apart of their disease
Yes, Sudan and Ethiopia is considered Northeast Africa, by many. I see it like that as well.
I think it has to do with where the sample were taken. More to the South, bordering to Kenya means East Africa. While up North is considered Northeast Africa.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Subtyping of Y-chromosomal haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a) by SNP assay and its forensic application
S. Caratti, S. Gino, C. Torre and C. Robino
Abstract
The continual discovery of new single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) has led to an increased resolution of the Y chromosome phylogeny. Some of these Y-SNPs have shown to be restricted to small geographical regions and therefore may prove useful in the forensic field as tools for the prediction of population of origin of unknown casework samples. Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction. Sensitivity and admixture studies demonstrated that the SNP protocol allows robust genotyping from as little as 50 pg of male DNA, even in the presence of 500-fold amounts of female DNA. In order to evaluate the suitability of E1b1b1a, subhaplogrouping for population-of-origin prediction, the distribution of E-M78 and its derived variants was determined in an Italian population sample (n = 326).
Posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed (Member # 18528) on :
RFLOL!! That is a good ass counter argument! I am going to use this, with your permission.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: He,he.
see I exposed the conspiracy to blackify white statuary by breaking the noses off. You've had it backwards all this time
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed: RFLOL!! That is a good ass counter argument! I am going to use this, with your permission.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: He,he.
see I exposed the conspiracy to blackify white statuary by breaking the noses off. You've had it backwards all this time
Your history is at Europe, the caves and forest of Europe!
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Ish Gebor - Punic means Phoenician, Juba was obviously NOT Phoenician. (the bronze bust is obviously a fake - more White man fantasy)
He was however, If the plaster bust is correct, probably a Greek/Berber Mulatto.
Such Mulattoes are common, even today!
.
The father ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Son.
I understand your insertion, but the Moroccan Royalty House is Arab not Berber.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ True, but that does not leave out any black ancestry among them (Arabs).
quote:Originally posted by L': ^I would like to think it was simply confusion. But I think the first possibility you listed is more likely. Just as you pointed out to me before when the article on haplogroup T listed Ethiopia as north Africa. Indeed, I have come across many people who were of the Euro-centric mindset who thought Ethiopia and Somalia were in north Africa. Must be apart of their disease
LMAO These Euronuts would sneak in the Congo as part of their vague region of North Africa, given the chance!
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ True, but that does not leave out any black ancestry among them (Arabs).
quote:Originally posted by L': ^I would like to think it was simply confusion. But I think the first possibility you listed is more likely. Just as you pointed out to me before when the article on haplogroup T listed Ethiopia as north Africa. Indeed, I have come across many people who were of the Euro-centric mindset who thought Ethiopia and Somalia were in north Africa. Must be apart of their disease
LMAO These Euronuts would sneak in the Congo as part of their vague region of North Africa, given the chance!
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: I understand your insertion, but the Moroccan Royalty House is Arab not Berber.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LMAO - These Euronuts would sneak in the Congo as part of their vague region of North Africa, given the chance!
Ish Gebor - Please don't tell me that you have swallowed that Sand Negro stuff about "Arab". Those interlopers are no-more Arab than the ones in North Africa are Berber!
THESE ARE ARABS!!!!!
THESE ARE BERBERS!!!!
As to this Person:
His history is thus:
We begin with his forefather - Ismail Ibn Sharif
In 1659, the last Saadī sultan was overthrown in the conquest of Marrakech by Mulay r-Rshid (1664–1672). After the victory over the zāwiya (Sanhadja Berbers) of Dila (middle Atlas), who controlled northern Morocco, he was able to unite and pacify the country. The organization of the kingdom developed under Ismail Ibn Sharif (1672–1727), who, against the opposition of local tribes began to create a unified state. Because the Alaouites, in contrast to previous dynasties, did not have the support of a single Berber or Bedouin tribe, Isma'īl controlled Morocco through an army from sub-Saharan Africa 150,000 strong. By the time of Ismail's death, the guard had grown tenfold, the largest in Moroccan history: 1.5 million men.
With these soldiers he drove the English from Tangiers (1684) and the Spanish from Larache (1689.) However, the unity of Morocco did not survive his death — in the ensuing power struggles the tribes became a political and military force once again. Only with Muhammad III (1757–1790) could the kingdom be pacified again and the administration reorganized. A renewed attempt at centralization was abandoned and the tribes allowed to preserve their autonomy.
The name Alaouite comes from its founder Moulay Ali Cherif who became Sultan of Tafilalt in 1631. His son Mulay r-Rshid (1664–1672) was able to unite and pacify the country. The Alaouite family claim descent from Muhammad through the line of Fātimah az-Zahrah, Muhammad's daughter, and her husband, the Fourth Caliph ‘Alī ibn Abī ālib. According to some legends the Alaouites entered Morocco at the end of the 13th century when Al Hassan Addakhil, who lived then in the town of Yanbu in the Hejaz, was brought to Morocco by the inhabitants of Tafilalet to be their imām. They were hoping that, as he was a descendant of Muhammad, his presence would help to improve their date palm crops.
Two things - obviously Ali Cherif was neither Arab OR Berber: I believe a poster recently said that he was in fact a Goth from Spain - which does match his appearance.
As it still is today, Albino interlopers often made the claim of relationship to Muhammad, to legitimize themselves. Only now, they simply make the claim of Berber or Arab descent.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LMAO - These Euronuts would sneak in the Congo as part of their vague region of North Africa, given the chance!
He, he, with the descendants of 1.5 million middle African soldiers there, who says some couldn't be from the Congo?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Mike, we all know that non-black Berbers and Arabs are just mixed folk who have black ancestry. Who knows, this might include our resident Muktaba troll, Abozo the clown. LOL Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Mike, we all know that non-black Berbers and Arabs are just mixed folk who have black ancestry. Who knows, this might include our resident Muktaba troll, Abozo the clown. LOL
If THEY understood that, I wouldn't have a problem with them.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Mike, we all know that non-black Berbers and Arabs are just mixed folk who have black ancestry.
wrong, most "intermediates" are not hybrids
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And what do Berbers and Arabs have to do with "most" intermediates, you twit??! Both groups live either in or around Africa and both groups speak African derived languages as well as possess African derived lineages along with Eurasian lineages. What do you call this then if they are not hybrid?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Mike, we all know that non-black Berbers and Arabs are just mixed folk who have black ancestry.
wrong, most "intermediates" are not hybrids
-I am looking for info on the Musta Rabi and AL Musta Riba...can you help me out?
-And if non-black Berbers aren't "hybrids", how come they are so many different "dissociate" haplotypes in them?
Thanks in advance Mathilda.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Ignore lioness, controversy is her game, intelligent discourse is not.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. LOL I don't know if anyone else noticed by her comment about most intermediates not being hybrids was a statement told to her in the first place by Explorer or another poster. This was in response to her allegation that because someone showed intermediate position in say certain skeletal features must be proof of hybridization. Of course we know this not to necessarily be the case as there are gradients of adaptation from tropical, to subtropical, to temperate, to cold and not simply tropical vs. cold. The same is true of skin color where most folks fall between Sudanese black and Nordic pale. Of course the idiot now tries to apply that to people who we KNOW are hybrids. LOL Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Yeah, but the funnies part is that Abu Simbel is in the far South. And originally was in what we call today Sudan. The nuttjob did not realize that this place referred to as Nubia nowadays. And the people with the so-called small feutures are actually the Nubians and other native ethnic groups/ tribes as we know them today. In all there diversity.
[/QB]
I wonder what lion-o means by small features?that keeps coming up with some of these nuts.i have not read everything on the first page,so i do not know what context she is trying to say,BUT I HAVE IDEAS,but those picture above are ethnic egyptians,and we know most of them were black with varied features.So called small features could mean anything.
There are whites that i have seen with very large straight noses,and there are blacks that i have seen with small flat noses.I seen whites with thick lips,and i seen blacks with small or thin lips. you could have a flat small nose-lion-o ,i think that would be called small features,but when these eurocentric mean small features they mean folks have having thin lips and straight small noses.
There are lager straight noses that whites have and there are small flat noses black could have,there are small straight or narrow noses blacks could have too and thin lips.
Let's keep in mind that egyptian art was idealized,look it up if you do not know what it means.some images were more realistic then others or some were more idealized then others,but the best idea to know who had what is to study the bones and what others had to say about tjem durin thier time and ceartian art images they creeted helps to,to a point.
Nubia art art tend to be more realistic then egypt art,but they had idealzed images too,but not has much has egypt.
Let me give a short history of what happen in lower nubia by the way,a region today that is in modern sudan and modern egypt.
All i know so far is that -a-group lower nubians before they were wiped out in lower nubia during the old kingdom of egypt had varied features,like i repeated to lion-o and few other eurocentric types for the 100th time.
Some had flat noses others had straight or narrow noses.some had thick lips,some had thin lips.some had longheads,some had round heads,but what i have read recently is that thier head type was more closer to thier blacks of upper egypt meaning most had long heads.
Nubians of upper and southern nubia(kushites) had flat noses,thick lips and most had round heads and were darker on average then a-group nubians and upper egyptian blacks,but this just shows that there were varied african features in the nile valley.
Even c group nubians were lighter on average then southern or upper nubians,but they did not existed has much anymore by the time after the new kingdom and the rest went to live in egypt i think after the new kingdom.
Kushites filled into lower nubia later,then at the end of the kushite period,the noba nubians came in and became the major nubian group in lower nubia.
There were types types of noba nubians from what i have read.the black noba and red noba. the black noba took over and formed new kingdoms in upper and southern nubia,while the red noba took over over lower nubia.
The Black noba were unmixed black africans that came from the south west years agos before they took over.kushites came from the same region,so they are the same folks just different tribes of the same ethnic group.
The red noba are noba that became mixed over time in lower nubia ,that's why they were called the red noba.
Black noba lived in lower nubia too,but later they took over lower nubia before they fought the arabs and became the major group there.
By the time the 1300's a.d. came most lower nubians has arab admixture to varied degrees.
For more detail info look up the books called ancient nubia by david o' conner, “THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION” BY BROTHER CHANCELLOR .SOME INFO NEEDS UPDATING IN BOTH BOOKS AND THE LATER HAS SOME MISTAKES,BUT BOTH GOOD HAVE GOOD INFO.
The other is Daily life of the Nubians Robert Steven Bianchi.
IT'S MORE UPDATED,BUT has a few mistakes,one is dealing with the conflict rome had with kush and the author knows about it since i wrote to him about it.
A book that more update and more clear info about the conflict kush had with rome is
At empire's edge: exploring Rome's Egyptian frontier Robert B. Jackson - 2002 - 350 pages
Really good book too. I hope this is last time i have to repeat this to folks like lion-o and other eurocentrics.
All this info i got from books from really good scholars,so i think it's waste of time for me anyway debating facts that has been known for many years now,so when i ask if they have READ any of the books i HAVE mention and they have not,i do not bother with them anymore.
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF MY POINT.
Facts are the facts,i do not debate facts.The EARLY NUBIANS were black,period.END OF STORY.
Most ancient egyptians were black, period.END OF STORY.
AXUMITES,OR most axumties were black,period. END OF STORY.
THE FIRST LIBYANS WERE BLACK AND THE SOUTHERN LIBYAN CIVILZATION WAS CREATED BY BLACK AFRICANS,PERIOD.END OF STORY.
GET THE POINT EUROCENTRICS?GOOD.
This info i put out one last time for those that are new here anf want the facts.PERIOD,END OF STORY.
That's all folks, Bye.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: I wonder what lion-o means by small features? that keeps coming up with some of these nuts. i have not read everything on the first page, so i do not know what context she is trying to say, BUT I HAVE IDEAS, but those picture above are ethnic egyptians, and we know most of them were black with varied features. So called small features could mean anything.
"Most"? I think all native Egyptians were black unless you think there were somehow nationalized foreigners in these pictures.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
First of all, I like to thank you for responding.
Second, what made you think I have no knowledge of this?
And yes, I did read the Destruction of Black Civilization, many years ago. For the other book: I did see it,read parts of it, but never read it in total. However, I will.
Third, have you ever been to Egypt?
Forth, Ancient Egypt was black, until it got invaded. So I don't understand your insertion on "most of them"?
Fifth, I have posted multiple times recent studies on bone structure etc....
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Yeah, but the funnies part is that Abu Simbel is in the far South. And originally was in what we call today Sudan. The nuttjob did not realize that this place referred to as Nubia nowadays. And the people with the so-called small feutures are actually the Nubians and other native ethnic groups/ tribes as we know them today. In all their diversity.
I wonder what lion-o means by small features?that keeps coming up with some of these nuts.i have not read everything on the first page,so i do not know what context she is trying to say,BUT I HAVE IDEAS,but those picture above are ethnic egyptians,and we know most of them were black with varied features.So called small features could mean anything.
There are whites that i have seen with very large straight noses,and there are blacks that i have seen with small flat noses.I seen whites with thick lips,and i seen blacks with small or thin lips. you could have a flat small nose-lion-o ,i think that would be called small features,but when these eurocentric mean small features they mean folks have having thin lips and straight small noses.
There are lager straight noses that whites have and there are small flat noses black could have,there are small straight or narrow noses blacks could have too and thin lips.
Let's keep in mind that egyptian art was idealized,look it up if you do not know what it means.some images were more realistic then others or some were more idealized then others,but the best idea to know who had what is to study the bones and what others had to say about tjem durin thier time and ceartian art images they creeted helps to,to a point.
Nubia art art tend to be more realistic then egypt art,but they had idealzed images too,but not has much has egypt.
Let me give a short history of what happen in lower nubia by the way,a region today that is in modern sudan and modern egypt.
All i know so far is that -a-group lower nubians before they were wiped out in lower nubia during the old kingdom of egypt had varied features,like i repeated to lion-o and few other eurocentric types for the 100th time.
Some had flat noses others had straight or narrow noses.some had thick lips,some had thin lips.some had longheads,some had round heads,but what i have read recently is that thier head type was more closer to thier blacks of upper egypt meaning most had long heads.
Nubians of upper and southern nubia(kushites) had flat noses,thick lips and most had round heads and were darker on average then a-group nubians and upper egyptian blacks,but this just shows that there were varied african features in the nile valley.
Even c group nubians were lighter on average then southern or upper nubians,but they did not existed has much anymore by the time after the new kingdom and the rest went to live in egypt i think after the new kingdom.
Kushites filled into lower nubia later,then at the end of the kushite period,the noba nubians came in and became the major nubian group in lower nubia.
There were types types of noba nubians from what i have read.the black noba and red noba. the black noba took over and formed new kingdoms in upper and southern nubia,while the red noba took over over lower nubia.
The Black noba were unmixed black africans that came from the south west years agos before they took over.kushites came from the same region,so they are the same folks just different tribes of the same ethnic group.
The red noba are noba that became mixed over time in lower nubia ,that's why they were called the red noba.
Black noba lived in lower nubia too,but later they took over lower nubia before they fought the arabs and became the major group there.
By the time the 1300's a.d. came most lower nubians has arab admixture to varied degrees.
For more detail info look up the books called ancient nubia by david o' conner, “THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION” BY BROTHER CHANCELLOR .SOME INFO NEEDS UPDATING IN BOTH BOOKS AND THE LATER HAS SOME MISTAKES,BUT BOTH GOOD HAVE GOOD INFO.
The other is Daily life of the Nubians Robert Steven Bianchi.
IT'S MORE UPDATED,BUT has a few mistakes,one is dealing with the conflict rome had with kush and the author knows about it since i wrote to him about it.
A book that more update and more clear info about the conflict kush had with rome is
At empire's edge: exploring Rome's Egyptian frontier Robert B. Jackson - 2002 - 350 pages
Really good book too. I hope this is last time i have to repeat this to folks like lion-o and other eurocentrics.
All this info i got from books from really good scholars,so i think it's waste of time for me anyway debating facts that has been known for many years now,so when i ask if they have READ any of the books i HAVE mention and they have not,i do not bother with them anymore.
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF MY POINT.
Facts are the facts,i do not debate facts.The EARLY NUBIANS were black,period.END OF STORY.
Most ancient egyptians were black, period.END OF STORY.
AXUMITES,OR most axumties were black,period. END OF STORY.
THE FIRST LIBYANS WERE BLACK AND THE SOUTHERN LIBYAN CIVILZATION WAS CREATED BY BLACK AFRICANS,PERIOD.END OF STORY.
GET THE POINT EUROCENTRICS?GOOD.
This info i put out one last time for those that are new here anf want the facts.PERIOD,END OF STORY.
That's all folks, Bye. [/QB]
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by L':
Several Siblings of D are in Africa. DE* has been found in 6 Africans but only one Asian, and E is nearly the same age as D. Issog seems a bit biased imo, that bit about hg D is just sooo unsound. I suggest refraining from isogg, they'll just cause confusion. Read all of the articles and they will all support an African origin. (See: Underhill and Kivislid 2008; Karafret et al. 2008)
Notice they say E arose in NE Africa. Last I checked NE Africa isn't even a candidate, East Africa is the place of origin.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
It will help to understand that Eurocentrists sometimes even include sub-Saharan eastern Africa into "northeast Africa", when it suits the ideological occasion being promoted. Haplogroup E is not as diverse in northeastern Africa as it is in sub-Saharan Africa by any stretch of the imagination. If the ISOGG is not guilty of the aforementioned political gymnastics with geography, then they may very well be confusing E1b1b1a (E-M78) with the macrohaplogroup E.
Am J Hum Biol. 2008 Mar-Apr;20(2):185-90. The Y-chromosome short tandem repeats variation within haplogroup E3b: evidence of recurrent mutation in SNP.
Recurrent mutation in SNPs within Y chromosome E3b (E-M215) haplogroup: A rebuttal
Fulvio Cruciani1, Beniamino Trombetta1, Andrea Novelletto2, Rosaria Scozzari1,*
DOI: 10.1002/ajhb.20790
American Journal of Human Biology Volume 20, Issue 5, pages 614–616, September/October 2008
Abstract
In a previous issue of AJHB, Fernandes et al. (2008. Am J Hum Biol 20:185–190.) describe instances of identity by state at multiple short tandem repeat loci between human Y chromosomes belonging to different E-M35 sub-haplogroups. They interpret these findings as evidence for multiple mutational events in at least two loci (M78 and M81). Here, we introduce a novel polymorphic marker (V68), potentially useful to investigate the issue. This marker and sequence data, reported here for the first time, reinforce our previous interpretations on the phylogenetic structure of the E3b haplogroup. We discuss these results in the frame of general approaches to attain robust phylogenetic inferences based on biallelic polymorphism data. Am. J. Hum. Biol., 2008.
So, by this, are you of the mindset that you are reinforcing my point, or you are questioning it?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by L':
Several Siblings of D are in Africa. DE* has been found in 6 Africans but only one Asian, and E is nearly the same age as D. Issog seems a bit biased imo, that bit about hg D is just sooo unsound. I suggest refraining from isogg, they'll just cause confusion. Read all of the articles and they will all support an African origin. (See: Underhill and Kivislid 2008; Karafret et al. 2008)
Notice they say E arose in NE Africa. Last I checked NE Africa isn't even a candidate, East Africa is the place of origin.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
It will help to understand that Eurocentrists sometimes even include sub-Saharan eastern Africa into "northeast Africa", when it suits the ideological occasion being promoted. Haplogroup E is not as diverse in northeastern Africa as it is in sub-Saharan Africa by any stretch of the imagination. If the ISOGG is not guilty of the aforementioned political gymnastics with geography, then they may very well be confusing E1b1b1a (E-M78) with the macrohaplogroup E.
Am J Hum Biol. 2008 Mar-Apr;20(2):185-90. The Y-chromosome short tandem repeats variation within haplogroup E3b: evidence of recurrent mutation in SNP.
Recurrent mutation in SNPs within Y chromosome E3b (E-M215) haplogroup: A rebuttal
Fulvio Cruciani1, Beniamino Trombetta1, Andrea Novelletto2, Rosaria Scozzari1,*
DOI: 10.1002/ajhb.20790
American Journal of Human Biology Volume 20, Issue 5, pages 614–616, September/October 2008
Abstract
In a previous issue of AJHB, Fernandes et al. (2008. Am J Hum Biol 20:185–190.) describe instances of identity by state at multiple short tandem repeat loci between human Y chromosomes belonging to different E-M35 sub-haplogroups. They interpret these findings as evidence for multiple mutational events in at least two loci (M78 and M81). Here, we introduce a novel polymorphic marker (V68), potentially useful to investigate the issue. This marker and sequence data, reported here for the first time, reinforce our previous interpretations on the phylogenetic structure of the E3b haplogroup. We discuss these results in the frame of general approaches to attain robust phylogenetic inferences based on biallelic polymorphism data. Am. J. Hum. Biol., 2008.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
