quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Interesting how many Blacks see Islam as an alternative to "White" Christianity, as rewritten by Whites. When in fact, Islam as rewritten by Turks, is often "Openly" antiBlack, whereas Christianity is only antiBlack in practice, NOT in text.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Confirming Truth:
He may fool the dumb deaf and blind Black "conscious" community but he does not fool educated people. He has a paper entitled, "Was Prophet Muhammad Black or Caucasian?" (2009). The title alone demonstrates how he relies on semantics to advance his pseudo scholarship.

http://www.theblackgod.com/Muhammad%20Black%20or%20Caucasian.pdf

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If Confirming Truth is correct as to wesleymuhammads motivation, then lets test it for him.

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Originally Arab tribesman wanted nothing to do with Muhammad's new religion.

Qur'an 9:97 "The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger."

They were later defeated in battle and given the choice: accept Islam or DIE!

They accepted Islam.

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Translations of the Qur'an, Surah 15:


015.028
YUSUFALI: Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered,
SHAKIR: And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.

Seems some are saying that God created man out of Black Mud. It is also clear that some don't agree with the Black part.

Translations of the Qur'an, Surah 39:

039.060
YUSUFALI: On the Day of Judgment wilt thou see those who told lies against Allah;- their faces will be turned black; Is there not in Hell an abode for the Haughty?
PICKTHAL: And on the Day of Resurrection thou (Muhammad) seest those who lied concerning Allah with their faces blackened. Is not the home of the scorners in hell?
SHAKIR: And on the day of resurrection you shall see those who lied against Allah; their faces shall be blackened. Is there not in hell an abode for the proud?


Translations of the Qur'an, Surah 43:

043.017
YUSUFALI: When news is brought to one of them of (the birth of) what he sets up as a likeness to (Allah) Most Gracious, his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief!
PICKTHAL: And if one of them hath tidings of that which he likeneth to the Beneficent One, his countenance becometh black and he is full of inward rage.
SHAKIR: And when one of them is given news of that of which he sets up as a likeness for the Beneficent Allah, his face becomes black and he is full of rage.

Oh oh, this DEFINITELY doesn't sound like the "Black is beautiful" song!

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Sahih Bukhari

Sahih al-Bukhari, as it is commonly referred to as, is one of the six canonical hadith collections of Islam (Sunni). These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Muslim scholar Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari (810-870) and compiled during his lifetime. Most Sunni Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it is considered the most authentic book after the Qur'an.


Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari, popularly known as Al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari (810-870), was a famous Sunni Islamic scholar of what they call Persian ancestry.

In fact; he was born in Bukhara, Uzbekistan - the ethnic majority in this city are the Persian-speaking Tajiks. Tajiks descended from ancient Eastern Iranian peoples of Central Asia, such as the Soghdians and the Bactrians. The Tajiks of China, although known by the name Tajik, speak Eastern Iranian languages and are distinct from Persian Tajiks.


A Bactrian from Apadana, circa 450 B.C.


 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Continued.....


Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 56:

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 743:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan resembled him.

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:

Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid:

I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 745:

Narrated Wahb Abu Juhaifa As-Sawwai:

I saw the Prophet and saw some white hair below his lower lip above the chin.

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 746:

Narrated Hariz bin 'Uthman:

That he asked 'Abdullah bin Busr (i.e. the companion of the Prophet), "Did you see the Prophet when he was old?" He said, "He had a few white hairs between the lower lip and the chin."

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 747:

Narrated Rabia bin Abi Abdur-Rahman:

I heard Anas bin Malik describing the Prophet saying, "He was of medium height amongst the people, neither tall nor short; he had a rosy color, neither absolutely white nor deep brown; his hair was neither completely curly nor quite lank. Divine Inspiration was revealed to him when he was forty years old. He stayed ten years in Mecca receiving the Divine Inspiration, and stayed in Medina for ten more years. When he expired, he had scarcely twenty white hairs in his head and beard." Rabi'a said, "I saw some of his hairs and it was red. When I asked about that, I was told that it turned red because of scent. "

The battle raged from early on: was Muhammad Black or White.

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Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 60:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 269:

Narrated Sahl bin Saud:

'Uwaimir came to 'Asim bin 'Adi who was the chief of Bani Ajlan and said, "What do you say about a man who has found another man with his wife? Should he kill him whereupon you would kill him (i.e. the husband), or what should he do? Please ask Allah's Apostle about this matter on my behalf." Asim then went to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! (And asked him that question) but Allah's Apostle disliked the question," When 'Uwaimir asked 'Asim (about the Prophet's answer) 'Asim replied that Allah's Apostle disliked such questions and considered it shameful. "Uwaimir then said, "By Allah, I will not give up asking unless I ask Allah's Apostle about it." Uwaimir came (to the Prophet ) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! A man has found another man with his wife! Should he kill him whereupon you would kill him (the husband, in Qisas) or what should he do?" Allah's Apostle said, "Allah has revealed regarding you and your wife's case in the Qur'an "So Allah's Apostle ordered them to perform the measures of Mula'ana according to what Allah had mentioned in His Book. So 'Uwaimir did Mula'ana with her and said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I kept her I would oppress her." So 'Uwaimir divorced her and so divorce became a tradition after them for those who happened to be involved in a case of Mula'ana. Allah's Apostle then said, "Look! If she (Uwaimir's wife) delivers a black child with deep black large eyes, big hips and fat legs, then I will be of the opinion that 'Uwaimir has spoken the truth; but if she delivers a red child looking like a Wahra then we will consider that 'Uwaimir has told a lie against her." Later on she delivered a child carrying the qualities which Allah's Apostle had mentioned as a proof for 'Uwaimir's claim; therefore the child was ascribed to its mother henceforth.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 270:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Suppose a man saw another man with his wife, should he kill him whereupon you might kill him (i.e. the killer) (in Qisas) or what should he do?" So Allah revealed concerning their case what is mentioned of the order of Mula'ana. Allah's Apostle said to the man, "The matter between you and your wife has been decided." So they did Mula'ana in the presence of Allah's Apostle and I was present there, and then the man divorced his wife. So it became a tradition to dissolve the marriage of those spouses who were involved in a case of Mula'ana. The woman was pregnant and the husband denied that he was the cause of her pregnancy, so the son was (later) ascribed to her. Then it became a tradition that such a son would be the heir of his mother, and she would inherit of him what Allah prescribed for her.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 271:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Hilal bin Umaiya accused his wife of committing illegal sexual intercourse with Sharik bin Sahma' and filed the case before the Prophet. The Prophet said (to Hilal), "Either you bring forth a proof (four witnesses) or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back." Hilal said, "O Allah's Apostle! If anyone of us saw a man over his wife, would he go to seek after witnesses?" The Prophet kept on saying, "Either you bring forth the witnesses or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back." Hilal then said, "By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I am telling the truth and Allah will reveal to you what will save my back from legal punishment." Then Gabriel came down and revealed to him:--

'As for those who accuse their wives...' (24.6-9) The Prophet recited it till he reached: '... (her accuser) is telling the truth.' Then the Prophet left and sent for the woman, and Hilal went (and brought) her and then took the oaths (confirming the claim). The Prophet was saying, "Allah knows that one of you is a liar, so will any of you repent?" Then the woman got up and took the oaths and when she was going to take the fifth one, the people stopped her and said, "It (the fifth oath) will definitely bring Allah's curse on you (if you are guilty)." So she hesitated and recoiled (from taking the oath) so much that we thought that she would withdraw her denial. But then she said, "I will not dishonor my family all through these days," and carried on (the process of taking oaths). The Prophet then said, "Watch her; if she delivers a black-eyed child with big hips and fat shins then it is Sharik bin Sahma's child." Later she delivered a child of that description. So the Prophet said, "If the case was not settled by Allah's Law, I would punish her severely."

Oh oh, this also DEFINITELY doesn't sound like the "Black is beautiful" song!


Volume 7, Book 63, Number 225:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

A man came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! A black child has been born for me." The Prophet asked him, "Have you got camels?" The man said, "Yes." The Prophet asked him, "What color are they?" The man replied, "Red." The Prophet said, "Is there a grey one among them?' The man replied, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Whence comes that?" He said, "May be it is because of heredity." The Prophet said, "May be your latest son has this color because of heredity."


Volume 7, Book 70, Number 555:

Narrated 'Ata bin Abi Rabah:

Ibn 'Abbas said to me, "Shall I show you a woman of the people of Paradise?" I said, "Yes." He said, "This black lady came to the Prophet and said, 'I get attacks of epilepsy and my body becomes uncovered; please invoke Allah for me.' The Prophet said (to her), 'If you wish, be patient and you will have (enter) Paradise; and if you wish, I will invoke Allah to cure you.' She said, 'I will remain patient,' and added, 'but I become uncovered, so please invoke Allah for me that I may not become uncovered.' So he invoked Allah for her."

Volume 7, Book 70, Number 556:

Narrated 'Ata:

That he had seen Um Zafar, the tall black lady, at (holding) the curtain of the Ka'ba.


Well at least it wasn't as bad as some for us poor colored folk.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Continued.....


Volume 9, Book 87, Number 161:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I saw (in a dream) a black woman with unkempt hair going out of Medina and settling at Mahai'a, i.e., Al-Juhfa. I interpreted that as a symbol of epidemic of Medina being transferred to that place (Al-Juhfa)."

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 162:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

concerning the dream of the Prophet in Medina: The Prophet said, "I saw (in a dream) a black woman with unkempt hair going out of Medina and settling at Mahai'a. I interpreted that as (a symbol of) the epidemic of Medina being transferred to Mahai'a, namely, Al-Juhfa."

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 163:

Narrated Salim's father:

The Prophet said, "I saw (in a dream) a black woman with unkempt hair going out of Medina and settling in Mahai'a. I interpreted that as (a symbol of) epidemic of Medina being transferred to Mahai'a, namely, Al-Juhfa."

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 164:

Narrated Abu Musa:

The Prophet said, "I saw in a dream that I waved a sword and it broke in the middle, and behold, that symbolized the casualties the believers suffered on the Day (of the battle) of Uhud. Then I waved the sword again, and it became better than it had ever been before, and behold, that symbolized the Conquest (of Mecca) which Allah brought about and the gathering of the believers. "

Again: at least it wasn't as bad as some for us poor colored folk.

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Volume 9, Book 89, Number 256:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."


Volume 9, Book 92, Number 407:

Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd As-Sa'idi:

'Uwaimir Al-'Ajlani came to 'Asim bin 'Adi and said, "If a man found another man with his wife and killed him, would you sentence the husband to death (in Qisas,) i.e., equality in punishment)? O 'Asim! Please ask Allah's Apostle about this matter on my behalf." 'Asim asked the Prophet but the Prophet disliked the question and disapproved of it. 'Asim returned and informed 'Uwaimir that the Prophet disliked that type of question. 'Uwaimir said, "By Allah, I will go (personally) to the Prophet." 'Uwaimir came to the Prophet when Allah had already revealed Qur'anic Verses (in that respect), after 'Asim had left (the Prophet ). So the Prophet said to 'Uwaimir, "Allah has revealed Qur'anic Verses regarding you and your wife." The Prophet then called for them, and they came and carried out the order of Lian.

Then 'Uwaimir said, "O Allah's Apostle! Now if I kept her with me, I would be accused of telling a lie." So 'Uwaimir divorced her although the Prophet did not order him to do so. Later on this practice of divorcing became the tradition of couples involved in a case of Li'an. The Prophet said (to the people). "Wait for her! If she delivers a red short (small) child like a Wahra (a short red animal). then I will be of the opinion that he ('Uwaimir) has told a lie but if she delivered a black big-eyed one with big buttocks, then I will be of the opinion that he has told the truth about her." 'Ultimately she gave birth to a child that proved the accusation. (See Hadith No. 269, Vol. 6)


Volume 9, Book 92, Number 417:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "My wife has delivered a black boy, and I suspect that he is not my child." Allah's Apostle said to him, "Have you got camels?" The bedouin said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "What color are they?" The bedouin said, "They are red." The Prophet said, "Are any of them Grey?" He said, "There are Grey ones among them." The Prophet said, "Whence do you think this color came to them?" The bedouin said, "O Allah's Apostle! It resulted from hereditary disposition." The Prophet said, "And this (i.e., your child) has inherited his color from his ancestors." The Prophet did not allow him to deny his paternity of the child.


I'm starting to get a complex.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Continued....


Ibn Ishaq, Apostile of Allah

Muḥammad ibn Isḥaq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār - Born in Medina, ibn Isḥaq was the grandson of a Christian man, Yasār, who had been captured in one of Khalid ibn al-Walid's campaigns and taken to Medina as a slave. His grandfather became the slave of Qays ibn Makhrama ibn al-Muṭṭalib ibn ʿAbd Manāf ibn Quṣayy and, having accepted Islam, was manumitted and became his mawlā, thus acquiring the nisbat al-Muṭṭalibī. Yasār's three sons, Mūsā, ʿAbd al-Raḥmān, and Isḥāq, were all known as transmitters of akhbār, who collected and recounted tales of the past. Isḥāq married the daughter of another mawlā and from this marriage ibn Isḥāq was born.


Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.... Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, 'If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:144 "A rock was put on a slave's chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, 'You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.' I will do so,' said Bakr. 'I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out."


Ishaq:450 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent."

Ishaq:374 "The black troops and slaves of the Meccans cried out and the Muslims replied, 'Allah destroy your sight, you impious rascals.'"

I don't think this guy Ibn Ishaq liked Black people. Sounds like he might have been a Roman or Greek leftover: possibly even of Christian Turk ancestry.

Both Greeks and Romans made inroads into Arabia - the Romans more-so.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Continued....

Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923)

He was born in Amol, Tabaristan (some twenty kilometres south of the Caspian Sea) in the winter of 838–9. As he memorized the Qur'an at seven, was a qualified religious leader at eight and began to study the prophetic traditions at nine.

He is described as having a dark complexion, large eyes and a long beard. He was tall and slender and his hair and beard remained black until he was very old. He was attentive to his health, avoiding red meat, fats and other unhealthy foods.

Coming from that area, he could have been a Sagartian or a Mede.








FINALLY - a Brother! Maybe now us poor colored folk can get some love!

Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

Darn! He wanted Africans to turn White so that they could be Slaves????
Not exactly what I was hoping for!

BACKGROUND:

Early on, the Arab army was rather small, but they had BIG ambitions. So they started importing White Turkish Slave soldiers called "Mamlukes".

Later, after the Turks had deposed the Arabs as rulers in 1075 A.D, they continued the practice of taking Slave soldiers, this time from the Slavs, they were called "Janissaries".


Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."


Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Continued....


Sahih al-Bukhari

Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari was born in 810/194 in the city of Bukhara in Khorasan (now in Uzbekistan). His father, Ismail Ibn Ibrahim, was a known hadith scholar who died while he was young.

Uzbekistan is a doubly landlocked country in Central Asia. It shares borders with Kazakhstan to the west and to the north, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan to the east, and Afghanistan and Turkmenistan to the south. Prior to 1991, it was part of the Soviet Union.

Once part of the Persian Samanid and later Timurid empires, the region was conquered in the early 16th century by Uzbek nomads, who spoke an Eastern Turkic language. Most of Uzbekistan’s population today belong to the Uzbek ethnic group and speak the Uzbek language, one of the family of Turkic languages.

Before that it was Scythian or Sarmatian Territory.




Oh oh, he sounds like now us poor colored folk are in for it!

Bukhari: V9B89N256 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N137 "The Prophet said, 'Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"

Well, it wasn't THAT bad.

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Well wesleymuhammad, I tried, but as is apparent, it all depends on whether you are reading the writings of a Black man or a White man - so whats new?
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^I am somewhat embarrassed to say this; but I have been unable to find any actual "Arab" writings on the subject - except the Qur'an? So far, everyone is non-Arab, but then again, I am not an expert on important figures of Islam. If anyone knows of any who are actually Arabs, please post.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^But it does remind me of something awlaadberry wrote years ago.

quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Originally posted by Just call me Jari Quote:
This is the point the only place I hear about black Arabs is here and rastawire. Dana if the Black Arabs were the original, If black Arabs were such a force how come when I research Islam all I see are images of Light Arabs. It makes non sense to me that people who were Originally and the Big force behind a culture are absolutley silent in modern times..

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quote:

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Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:

governement minder

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Blue Blood - 1834,Probably from the visible veins of people of fair complexion (i.e. Pure Albinos). Transparent Un-melaninated Skin.

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he has you fooled, he's one of them
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Posted by Yasmeen el-Kabir (Member # 18927) on 22 May, 2011 07:55 PM:

I am an Arab of Turkish descent so I suppose I am a "white" Arab. I am also a classic Islamic scholar. The Prophet Mohammed was BLACK. All the early Islamic literature described him and his family as Black. Remember, at that time there was no prejudice against being Black, and people who are called "white" today were actually looked down upon and were the slaves. Read the following:

In his work, Islam’s Black Legacy: Some Leading Figures (1993), Mohammed Abu-Bakr
includes among 62 leading Black figures of Islam the prophet Muhammad himself.1 Abu-Bakr rightly
notes:
"According to Muslim tradition, Muhammad descended in a straight line from Ishmael’s second son Kedar
(Arabic: Qaidar), whose name in Hebrew signifies ‘black’…From the sons of Kedar inhabiting the northern
Arabian desert, sprang the noblest tribe in Arabia, the Koreish (Quraysh), the tribe from which Muhammad
descended."2

As we have also discussed above, the Arabian Qedar were a black tribe akin to the equally black
Nabataeans, and these two were in someway related to the Quraysh, the black tribe par excellence of Mecca.
As Robert F. Spencer remarks: “It is said that the Quraysh explained their short stature and dark skin by
the fact that they always carefully adhered to endogamy.”3 Al-Jahiz (d. 869), the important Afro-Iraqi
scholar of ninth century Baghdad, noted in his Fakhr al-sådan ala al-bidan, “The Boast of the Blacks over
the Whites”:

The ten lordly sons of Abd al-Muããalib were deep black (dalham) in color and big/tall (Dukhm). When
Amir b. al-Tufayl saw them circumambulating (the Ka'ba) like dark camels, he said, “With such men as these
is the custody of the Ka'ba preserved.” Abd Allah b. Abbas was very black and tall. Those of Abå Talib’s
family, who are the most noble of men, are more or less black (såd).”4

This report is important for our discussion, not only because Abd al-Muããalib and his ten black
sons were pure Arabs, but also because they are also the family of the Prophet, Abd al-Muããalib
being his paternal grandfather.5 The Syrian scholar and historian al-Dhahabi (d. 1348) too reported
that Abd Allah b. Abbas, Muhammad’s first cousin, and his son, Ali b. Abd Allah, were “very
dark-skinned.”6 Ali b. Abu Talib, first cousin of the Prophet and future fourth caliph, is described by
al-Suyuti and others as “husky, bald…pot-bellied, large-bearded…and jet-black (shadid al-udma).”7
Ali’s son, Abå Jafar Muhammad, according to Ibn Sad (d. 845), described Ali thusly: “He was a
black-skinned man with big, heavy eyes, pot-bellied, bald, and kind of short.”8

This convergence of blackness, nobility and Qurayshi ethnicity is further demonstrated in these lines
attributed to the seventh century CE Qurayshi poet, al-Fadil b. al-Abbas, called al-Akhdar al-LahabÊ
“The Flaming Black”. al-Fadil is the Prophet Muhammad’s first cousin and he said: “I am the blackskinned
one (al-Akhdar). I am well-known. My complexion is black. I am from the noble house of the
Arabs.”9 Ibn Maníår (d. 1311) notes the opinion that al-Akh·ar here means aswad al-jilda, ‘Blackskinned’,
and signifies that al-Fadil is from khaliß al-arab, the pure Arabs, “because the color of most
of the Arabs is dark (al-udma).”10 Similarly Ibn BarrÊ (d. 1193) said also: “He (al-Fadil) means by this
that his genealogy is pure and that he is a pure Arab (arabÊ mahd) because Arabs describe their color as
black (al-aswad).”11 Thus, al-Fadil’s blackness (akhdar) is the visual mark of his pure, Qurayshi
background, being born of a pure Arab mother and father.
The Quraysh consisted of several sub-clans. Abd al-Muããalib and his descendents, including
Muhammad, belonged to the Banå Hashim. Henry Lammens takes notice of “les Hasimites, famille où
dominait le sang nègre” (“the Hashimites, the family where Black blood dominated”).12 Lammens
remarks that they are “généralement qualifies de ??? = couleur foncée” (“generally described as adam =
dark colored”). But the Banå Hashim were not the only sub-clans noted for their blackness. The Banå
Zuhra, the tribe from which the prophet’s mother, Amia bt. Wahb, hailed, was likewise noted for its
blackness. See for example the famous Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (d.ca. 646), cousin of Amia and uncle of
Muhammad. He is described as very dark, tall and flat-nosed.13 Muhammad, it should be noted, was
quite proud of his uncle Saad whose military contributions we shall discuss below. We are told that once
Muhammad was sitting with some of his companions and Saad walked by. The prophet stopped and
taunted: “That’s my uncle. Let any man show me his uncle.”14
This blackness of the Quraysh tribe is not insignificant to the religious history of Islam. The Quraysh
were the custodians of the cult of the Ka'ba in pre-Qur?anic Mecca and at religious ceremonies they
would declare naÈnu ahlu ÏÏahi (“We are the People of AÏÏah”) and throughout Arabia they were known as
ahlu ÏÏah, the People of AÏÏah.15 In other words, the black tribe par excellence was also the AÏÏah-tribe par
excellence and custodians of the cult of the Black God. Nevertheless, or rather as a consequence,
Muhammad’s greatest struggle was with his own kinsmen, this black, AÏÏah-venerating Quraysh tribe. In
the end, however, it would be the black Quraysh that became the rulers of Islam, at least in the short
term. Not only were the Sunni caliphs drawn from them, but the Shiite Imams, descendents of the black
Ali b. Abå Talib, were likewise black QurayshÊ Arabs.16
One would thus expect the Qurayshi prophet Muhammad to be black too, especially since he
reportedly claimed to be a pure Arab for the house of Hashim17: this would make him very black-skinned
like the pure Arabs from that tribe. Muhammad’s pedigree actually demands this as his whole immediate
family tree were pure, black-skinned Qurayshi Arabs. I quote again Al-JaÈií’s important note in his Fakhr
al-sådan ala al-bidan:

The ten lordly sons of Abd al Muããalib were deep black (dalham) in color and big/tall (dukhm). When
Amir b. al-Tufayl saw them circumambulating (the Ka'ba) like dark camels, he said, “With such men as these
is the custody of the Ka'ba preserved.” Abd Allah b. Abbas was very black and tall. Those of Abå Talib’s
family, who are the most noble of men, are more or less black (såd).”18
Abd al Muããalib (d. 578) was the prophet’s grandfather and Abd Allah, one of his ten ‘deep black’
sons, was Muhammad’s father. Another deep black son, al-Abbas, was father to the above mentioned
Abd Allah b. Abbas, described as black, and al-Fa·l b. al-Abbas, whose blackness was legendary.
These were the uncle and first cousins of Muhammad. Abå Talib, another deep black uncle, was father
to Ali b. Abd Allah, another first cousin of the prophet who was described as jet-black. All of these
father-son pairs shared this deep blackness, what about the Abd Allah - Muhammad pair? We would
expect the same, unless Muhammad’s mother made a mitigating contribution. But this is not likely.
Amina, the prophet’s mother, was an Arab from the Qurayshi sub-clan Banå Zuhra, which was a black
clan. Amina’s cousin and Muhammad’s maternal uncle, Saad ibn Abi Waqqas, also from Banå Zuhra,
was very dark, tall and flat-nosed.19

But Muhammad had more than just Qurayshi blackness running through his veins. His great, great
grandfather was Abd Manaf who bore with $tika bt. Murra al-SulaymÊ the prophet’s great
grandfather \ashim. That is to say that the prophet’s great, great grandmother was from the jet-black
Banå Sulaym. \ashim, the great grandfather, bore with Salma bt. Amrå ’l-KhazrajÊ the prophet’s
grandfather, Abd al Muããalib. This means that his paternal great grandmother was from the black
Medinese tribe Banå Khazraj. Abd al Muããalib stayed within the Quraysh, but he bore the prophet’s
father Abd Allah with Faãima bt. Amrå al-MakhzåmÊ, from the exceptionally black Makhzåm
clan.20 Muhammad’s maternal lineage is also mixed with non-QurayshÊ black Arab blood. His mother,
Amina, is the daughter of Wahb b. Abd Manaf b. Zuhra whose mother (Amina’s grandmother) is
said to be a SulaymÊ, another $tika bt. Al-Awqaß.21 The black Sulaym are thus considered the
maternal uncles of the prophet and he is therefore reported to have said: “I am the son of the many
$tikas of Sulaym.”22 This all indicates that Muhammad’s lineage is a mix of QurayshÊ, SulaymÊ, and
KhazrajÊ blackness.

We thus have every reason to expect Muhammad to be black-skinned, and no reason to believe
anything else was possible. We in fact find him described as such in TirmidhÊ’s Shama?il al-
Muhammadiyyah. The following is reported on the authority of the famous Companion of the prophet,
Anas b. Malik:

The Messenger of Allah… was of medium stature, neither tall nor short, of a goodly build. His hair was
neither curly nor completely straight. He had a dark brown (asmar) complexion and when he walked he leant
forward [walking briskly].23

???? asmar is a dark brown as evidenced from other formations from the same root24: samar “darkness,
night”; al-garra al-samra? “the black continent (Africa)”.25 With the pedigree that he had, any other
complexion for Muhammad would be incomprehensible. Yet, the same Anas b. Malik who informed us
of the dark brown complexion of the prophet, also informs us thusly:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel
kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: “Who amongst you is Muhammad?” At that time
the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, “This white man
reclining on his arm.”26

There are several other reports that describe Muhammad as ???? abya· white. How can the same
man (Anas b. Malik) describe another (Muhammad) as both of dark brown complexion and as white?
The problem, it turns out, is not in these texts but in our modern, Western inability to appreciate the premodern
Arabic color classification system. We assume that terms such as white, green, blue, and red
meant the same to the early Arabs that they do to us today. But as Moroccan scholar Tariq Berry explains
in his book, The Unknown Arabs, this is simply not the case:
The term white can be very confusing to those reading about the description of people of the past because, in the past,
when Arabs described someone as white, they meant something entirely different from what is meant today. In the past,
when the Arabs described someone as white, they meant either that he had a pure, noble, essence or that he had a nice,
smooth complexion without any blemishes. They meant he had a black complexion with a light-brownish undertone.27
Berry’s point is confirmed by the appropriate Classical Arabic/Islamic sources. Ibn Maníår affirmed that
“When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he has a pure, clean, fautless integrity…They
don’t mean that he has white skin…”28 Similarly, al-Dhahabi informs us that “When the Arabs say a
person is white, they mean he is black with a light-brownish undertone.”29 Particularly important was the
observation of the 9th century CE Arabic scholar Thalab, who tells us that : “The Arabs don’t say that a
man is white because of a white complexion. White to the Arabs means that a person is pure, without any
faults. If they meant his complexion was white, they said ‘red’ (aÈmar).”30 Indeed, as David Goldenberg
notes, ‘white ???? ’ in pre-modern Arabic was about “luminosity, not chromaticity.”31 That is to say, ????
connoted brilliance, not paleness of skin. The latter was described as ‘red’ ? ??? aÈmar, which is how non-
Arab whites such as Persians and Byzantines were described.32 In other words, what we call white today
the early Arabs called red, and what they called white often was what we would today call black!
It is certain that Muhammad could not have been what we consider white today; he could not have
been fair or pale-skinned at all, for a pale-skinned Arab was such an oddity that the prophet could not
have claimed be a pure QurayshÊ Arab. The seventh century Arab from the tribe of Nakha?i, Shurayk al-
Qa·i, could claim that, because it was such a rare occurrence “a fair-skinned Arab is something
inconceivable and unthinkable.”33 So too did al-Dhahabi report that: “Red, in the language of the people
from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs.”34 On the other hand,
the Arabs prided themselves on being black, is conscious contrast to the pale-skinned non-Arabs. Al-JaÈií
could still claim in the 9th century:
????? ???? ????? ?????
al-arab tafkhar bi-sawad al-lawn
“The Arabs pride themselves in (their) black color”35

These noble Black Arabs even detested pale skin. Al-Mubarrad (d. 898), the leading figure in the Basran
grammatical tradition, is quoted as saying: “The Arabs used to take pride in their darkness and blackness
and they had a distaste for a light complexion and they used to say that a light complexion was the
complexion of the non-Arabs”. Part of the reason for this distaste is that the slaves at the time were largely
from pale-skinned peoples, such that aÈmar “red” came to mean “slave” back then, just as abid
“servant/slave” means black today in the now white Muslim world. As Dana Marniche observes:
Anyone familiar with the Arabic writings of the Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian historians up until the 14th century
knows that this is also their description of the early ‘pure’ Arab clans of the Arabian peninsula… [i.e. “blacker
than the blackest ink – no shred of white on them except their teeth.”]…The irony of history is that early
Arabic-speaking historians and linguists made a distinction between the Arabs in Arabia and the fair-skinned
peoples to the north; and contrary to what may be fact in our day, in the days of early Islam, those called
‘Arabs’ looked down condescendingly on fair-skinned populations and commonly used the phrase ‘fairskinned
as a slave’ when describing individuals in tribes in the peninsula that were pale in complexion…Of
course, today due mainly to slavery and conversion of peoples to the ‘Arab’ nationality, the opposite is
thought to be true by many in the West.

A red or pale-skinned Muhammad would thus have been a profound oddity in 7th century Arabia and
would have had little chance of success amongst the proud, black Meccans and Medinese. The Meccan
objectors to his message accused of some of everything, but never of being a non-Arab! There is absolutely no
reason to believe he was pale-skinned other than much later representations that coincide with a major
demographic change it the Muslim world, a change that brought with it a strong anti-black ideology.36
We thus have every reason to accept the truth of Anas b. Malik’s description of the prophet as dark
brown (asmar) and to conclude that, as his black cousins Ali and al-Fa·l resembled their black fathers (his
black uncles), he resembled his black father, especially since his mother’s side was black as well.37


FOOTNOTES
1 Abu-Bakr, Islam’s Black Legacy, Chapter 1. See also Rogers, Sex and Race, I: 95 who states that “Mohamet, himself, was to all accounts a
Negro.” Ben-Jochannon too accepted that Muhammad was “in the family of the Black Race”. African Origins, 237.
2 Abu-Bakr, Islam’s Black Legacy, 1.
3 Robert F. Spencer, “The Arabian Matriarchate: An Old Controversy,” Southwestern Journal of Anthropology 8 (Winter, 1952) 488.
4 Al-JaÈií, Fakhr al-sådan ala al-bidan, in Risa"il Al-JaÈií, 4 vols. (1964/1384) I:209.
5 See below.
6 al-Dhahabi, Siyar, V:253
7 Al-Suyåãi, Tarikh al-khulafa (Cairo: Dar al-Fikr al-Arabi, 1975) 186. On shadid al-udma as ‘jet-black’ see Berry, Unknown, 54.
8 Ibn Sad, al-Tabaqat al-kubra (Beirut: Dar Sadir) 8:25. On Ali as short and dark brown see Henry Stubbe, An Account of the Rise and
Progress of Muhammadanism (1911) XX; I.M.N. al-Jubouri, History of Islamic Philosophy – With View of Greek Philosophy and
Early History of Islam (2004), 155; Philip K Hitti, History of the Arabs, 10th edition (London: Macmillan Education Ltd, 1970) 183.
9 Ibn Maníår, Lisan al-arab, s.v. ???? IV:245f.
10 Ibn Maníår, Lisan al-arab, s.v. ???? IV:245; E.W. Lane, Arabic-English, I: 756 s.v. . ???
11 Ibn Maníår, Lisan al-arab, s.v. ???? IV:245.
12 Études sur le siècle des Omayyades (Beirut: Imprimerie Calholique, 1930) 44.
13 al-Dhahabi, Siyar, 1:97.
14 Abd al-RaÈman Rafat al-Basha, ‘uwar min Èayat al-‘aÈabah (Beirut: Mu?assasat al-Risalah, 1974-75) 287.
15 Uri Rubin, “The Ilaf of Quraysh: A Study of såra CVI,” Arabica 31 (1984): 165-188; Margoliouth, Mohammed, 19.
16 Berry, Unknown Arabs, 62-65.
17 He is supposed to have described himself as “Arab of the Arabs, of the purest blood of your land, of the family of the Hashim and of the tribe of
Quraysh.”Quoted in Chandler, “Ebony and Bronze,” 285.
18 Al-JaÈií, Fakhr al-sådan ala al-bidan, in Risa"il Al-JaÈií, 4 vols. (1964/1384) I:209.
19 al-Dhahabi, Siyar, 1:97.
20 On the significance of these matrilateral listings in Muhammad’s genealogy see Daniel Martin Varisco, “Metaphors and Sacred History: The
Genealogy of Muhammad and the Arab ‘Tribe’,” Anthropological Quarterly 68 (1995): 139-156, esp. 148-150.
21 Ibn Athir, al-Nihaya fÊ gharÊb al-ÈadÊth (Cairo, 1385/1965) III:180 s.v. -t-k; Lecker, Banå sulaym, 114.
22 Muhammad b. Yåsuf al-‘aliÈÊ al-ShamÊ, Subul al-huda wa-‘l-rashad fÊ sÊrat khayr al-bad (Cairo, 1392/1972) I:384-85; Lecker,
Banå sulaym, 114-115.
23 Al-TirmidhÊ, Shama?il al-Muhammadiyyah, 2.
24 J M. Cowan (ed.), Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary 4th edition (Ithica: Spoken Language Services, Inc., 1994) 500 s.v. .???
25 Berry, Unknown Arabs, 49 notes: “When the Arabs of the past said that a person was brown, they meant that he was dark-skinned; close to
black, which is actually a dark shade of brown.”
26 Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 1 no. 63:
27 Berry, Unknown Arabs, 49.
28 Ibn Maníår, Lisan al-Arab 7:124.
29 Al-Dhahabi, Siyar alam al-nubala (Beirut: Risala Establishment, 1992) 2:168.
30 Ibn Maníår, Lisan al-Arab. 4:210.
31 Goldenberg, Curse of Ham, 93.
32 Goldziher, Muslim Studies, 1:268.
33 Ibn Abd Rabbih, al-Iqd al-farid (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiya, 1983) 8:140.
34 Al-Dhahabi, Siyar, 2:168.
35 Al-JaÈií, Fakhr al-sådan ala al-bidan, 207. See also Goldziher, Muslim Studies, 1:268 who notes that in contrast to the Persians who are
described as red or light-skinned (aÈmar) the Arabs call themselves black.
36 See below.
37 Chandler, “Ebony and Bronze,” 280: “All of the chronicles that survive intact agree that Ismael and Muhammad were of the Black Race…A
careful examination of history reveals that the Prophet Muhammad…was of the Black Race and was black in complexion.”
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Originally posted by unfinished thought.:
Darkness of Racism In Muslim Culture

By Adam Misbah al-Haqq
MuslimWakeup.Com
http://www.muslimwakeup.com/archives/000498.php

Islam is often spoken of as a universal faith that transcends culture and
ethnicity. Imams will often sermonize on how Islam dispelled the darkness of
racism and created a pluralistic and just society. However, beneath this
carefully constructed cosmetic, beneath the layers of rhetoric, the Muslim
community includes just as much bigotry and racism against people of African
descent as in Western society itself.

EXCERPTS


African Muslim jurists dealt with racist traditions and the attitudes which
created and were supported by them by questioning their authenticity and
insisting that they do not represent the teachings of the Prophet. The
famous jurist Al-Jahiz, in his book, The Boast of the Blacks over the
Whites, employs the same ethnocentric premises employed by the very racists
he was addressing. Most African Muslims however rejected their black
heritage altogether and adopted the seemingly superior Arab customs and
attitudes characterized in Arab-Islamic tradition. In so doing, they also
neglected their own wisdom traditions, deeming their history to be that of a
cursed people. African Muslims sought to distance themselves from their
pre-Islamic heritage by drawing sharp distinctions between themselves and
their non-Muslim fellow Africans. The African jurist Ahmed Baba, for
example, defends the chattel slavery by stating, The Sudanese non-believers
are like other non-believers whether they are Christians, Jews, Persians,
Berbers, or any others who stick to non-belief and do not embrace Islam...
there is no difference between all the non-believers in this respect.
Whoever is captured in the condition of non-belief, it is legal to enslave
him, whoever he might be, but not he who has converted to Islam voluntarily,
from the beginning.


Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406CE) added that blacks are; only humans who are closer to
dumb animals than to rational beings. The reason for their characteristic levity, excitability, and great emotionalism, according to Ibn Khaldun, is due to the expansion and diffusion of the animal spirit in them. Ibn
Khaldun disagrees with the mythological curse of Ham and attributes their deficiencies to the climate of Africa and their being overcooked in the womb.

Abū Zayd ‘Abdu r-Raḥman bin Muḥammad bin Khaldūn Al-Hadrami - was born in Tunis in AD 1332 into an upper-class Andalusian family (a White Spaniard).




Other renowned Muslim thinkers, such as id al-Andalusi (d. 1070CE)
wrote that blacks are More like animals than men, and that the rule of virtue and stability in judgment is lacking amongst them, such noble
qualities being replaced by foolishness and ignorance. Even such luminaries as Ibn Sina considered blacks to be people who are by their very nature slaves.

Said al-Andalusí (1029–1070) was an Andalusi Muslim Qadi. He was born at Almería and died at Toledo. (another White Spaniard)


I AM SEEING A TREND HERE!
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Posted by alurubenson (Member # 12885) on 22 May, 2011 10:11 PM:


quote: can you please explain why modern Arabs call blacks "Abdeed" if your "Prophet" was black??

Also When did the White Arabs become dominant in the Muslim world??

its abeed
because they were the one of the last people to carry on the trade on a wide scale. add on that it was exacerbated by demand of the customers. the trade of the black nations was salt and gold and a few slaves compared to the famous atlantic but when gold and salt fell in it's demand and with every subject renegading against the mali-songhai empire then people became a commodity also accompanied with the aggressive military presence of the european nations hence blacks as slaves started as raiding rather than commercial trade.

white arabs became dominant during the abaasi take over in which they were mixed and bred with the natives. they were always dominant in number though. the arabs were very minute in number compared to the non-arabs. most of their armies were native peoples who joined ranks.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Mike I'll tell you what his explanation is going to be, that Islam as per Muhammad and the Koran started black and then about a hundred years later was hijacked, taken over by whites. (how could Allah allow that to happen???)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Mike I'll tell you what his explanation is going to be, that Islam as per Muhammad and the Koran started black and then about a hundred years later was hijacked, taken over by whites. (how could Allah allow that to happen???)

---

I already know that part, my question is on the rationalization of continuing the relationship under those circumstances.

True, it is not unique, non-White Latin Americans are overwhelmingly Catholic, even though it was the Catholic church who sanctioned the destruction of their people and culture.

So if there are any non-White Latin Americans posting, I would like to hear from them too.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
"He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." He then then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib." -Sahih Bukhari 1:3:63

I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be open him) pronouncing taslim on his right and on his left till I saw the whiteness of his cheek"
-Sahih Muslim 4:1208


More form the Hadith


Volume 1, Book 3, Number 63:
"Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." The an then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
---
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:
Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid:
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Volume 2, Book 17, Number 122:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Dinar:
My father said, "I heard Ibn 'Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib: And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows."
---
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141:
Narrated Anas bin Malik
The Prophet never raised his hands for any invocation except for that of Istisqa' and he used to raise them so much that the whiteness of his armpits became visible.
---
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:
He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet."

---

I guess someone didn't familiarize themselves with the classical Arabic or read Wesley Muhammad's articl let along Tariq Berry's site.

The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.


Dhahabi, a Syrian who travelled through the Hijaz commented,
"When Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad),’ they mean a golden brown complexion with a black appearance (al-hinãÊ al-lawn bi-hilya suda"). Like the complexion of the people of India, brown and black (asmar wa adam), i.e. a clear, refined blackness (sawad al-takrår)” .
Ibn Manzur of Tunisia 14th century, who wrote essentially the same as Dhahabi in his dictionary Lisaan al Arab said:
The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abyad] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abyad] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (aÈmar)… And the Arabs ATTRIBUTE WHITE SKIN TO THE SLAVES. [emphasis mine]"

These were quoted from Tariq Berry's book and Dr. Wesley Muhammad's papers.

The Ibo also use the term "white" in the same way as the ancient Arabs as do other black Africans for their own people.

Early descriptions of Muhammed call him akhdar, later ones he is refered to as reddish white (of course by NON-ARABS) which would fall more into the "white" in the Western sense category.

Most importantly Wesley Muhammad quotes other scholars who were familiar with the term Asmar or Sumra used by al Jauzi and others for both Arabs and Abyssians. Hence the Arabians were the color of Abyssinians i.e. the Ethiopians and the southern Sudanese. This is the range of their blackness according to early writers dark golden brown of the Beja sort to jet black (shadeed al udma) of the southern Sudan or Somalia.

This is why Jahiz said if they are fair in color then they are from the Persians, slabs or Saqaliba, Rum (Byzantines) etc.

Muhammad has also put on line a paper that deals with the Chinese Muslim manuscripts in which all descriptions of Arabs are that they are black or dark brown in color.

http://drwesleywilliams.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Muhammad_Black_Arabs_China_Site.187112134.pdf


So much for the Iranian Abbasid hadiths. Truthfully some of them leave you wondering if they knew what Arabs in Arabia even looked like.

Wesley Muhammad is not asking "was Muhammed "white" or "black", It is obvious what he WASN'T. (And not that that matters ) His papers explore how a man whose tribe and clan was so famously black in color became "white" in the eyes of other Middle Eastern peoples.


Muhammad was a member of the Banu Hashim a clan of the Quraysh a branch of Kenaanah a notoriously black tribe of the notoriously black children of Qedar or Adnanites. Many of their descendants still occupy Iraq and the Shott al Arab still resembling the Bisharin and Africans of the Horn and Arabs of Sudan and Sahel.

The tribes closely related to Muhammeds clan remain and the Quraysh remain with "shining" and black skin in the Hijaz or Tihama. Including the Hudhail from which came Banu Makzumi mentioned by Jahiz.

All of Muhammeds direct ancestors on both his father and mother's side are described as near black or jet black in color. As are some of his near descendants.

Dhahabi, the Syrian, also "said Mohamed Al-Nafs Al-Zakia was "black-skinned and huge". Berry first posted on his site about Mohamed Al-Nafs Al-Zakia a letter to the anti-black i.e. Anti Arab Abbasid leaders, “I am descended from the Prophet (SAWS) from my mother's side and my father's side. I am the purest of Bani Hashim…no non-Arab blood flows through my veins, and I AM NOT RELATED TO THE SLAVE GIRLS.” His son Hasan is in fact nicknamed “the FATHER OF TAR” in Ibn Hazim's Jumharat Ansaab Al Arab due to his complexion"

Muhammed's clan was near jet black in color as are modern Kinanah tribes such as Hudhail amd Quraysh. I doubt whether Muhammed was as light as the average African American no matter how shining (or "white" in the Arab dialect of his time) his skin and hair were.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
The master who sets the rules, is to be ignored in favor of the powerless servant. Interesting, but not very practical.
 

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Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 
Lets help Mike better help wesleymuhammad out: He (Mike) wants to know (but not really) if Muhammad was Black or White.


I. Introduction

So Mike, you want to help me out as to whether Muhammad was Black or White, and this is what you offer me? This aid that you have extended proves one thing only: you are demonstrably unqualified to academically speak on the selected subjects: the ethnicity of the Prophet Muhammad and the evolution of the racial ethic in Islam. This is so for two quite glaring reasons, the first no doubt predicated upon the second: (1) your conspicuously shallow, clearly internet-derived familiarity with Islam as an historical tradition and (2) your obvious inability to engage this tradition and base your conclusions about it from the all-important vantage point of the primary sources, in this case the Classical Arabic Islamic tradition. While it is true that this tradition begins all of a century-plus after Muhammad and thus cannot serve as primary documents for him and the rise of Islam, this tradition is a repository of primary source materials for topics you are entertaining here, especially the Classical Arabic Islamic sources and discussions about Muhammad’s alleged “whiteness” and the ostensibly “Islamic” view of blacks. Your extended “help” is marred and thus rendered unhelpful to anyone (not just me) due to a number of serious methodological shortcomings on your part Mike.

You more or less telegraph this lacuna or blind-spot in your “research” and your preferred (and flawed) research method by your concluding remark to me:

“Well wesleymuhammad, I tried, but as is apparent, it all depends on whether you are reading the writings of a Black man or a White man - so whats new? I am somewhat embarrassed to say this; but I have been unable to find any actual ‘Arab’ writings on the subject - except the Qur'an? So far, everyone is non-Arab, but then again, I am not an expert on important figures of Islam. If anyone knows of any who are actually Arabs, please post. But it does remind me of something awlaadberry wrote years ago...”

And then you repost an internet post.

A number of relevant observations are to be made here:

1. The answer to the question of the ethnicity of Muhammad and the valuation of Black people in Islamic literature does indeed often depend on whether the answerer is Black or White, Arab or non-Arab. But you have failed to recognize (no doubt due to your above-noted blind spot) that these are converging categories, i.e. Arab=Black and White=non-Arab. I have demonstrated this e.g. here http://drwesleywilliams.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Muhammad_Article.170121832.pdf
2. But more importantly, you have failed to take significant enough account of this dynamic: you uncritically march out non-Arabs and have them pronounce the Islamic judgment on matters of race and Muhammad, without the slightest interest in their non-Islamic, ethnic motivations for such pronouncements. This oversight is particularly damning to your case as it relates to citing Persians, whom I have documented were profoundly anti-Black Arab, and this hostility left its print throughout Persianized Islamic literature. You, Mike, show a complete lack of awareness of this well-known phenomenon.
3. You embarrassingly confess that you have, because unable, consulted no “Arab” authors. Well, in the Classical Arabic Islamic tradition there are numerous Arab authors that could have – indeed should have – been brought in as testimony. Yet, because you are clearly reliant on internet postings for your knowledge of things Islamic, you wouldn’t know that. You request: “If anyone knows of any who are actually Arabs, please post.” Well, ironically, I will be helping YOU out today.
4. Lastly, this lacuna has given rise to other methodological errors on your part, Mike. Your non-contextual use of Tabari is one example, and your reliance on English (mis)translations of the Arabic sources to make your (demonstrably wrong) points is another.

Because alI you did here was gather as much seemingly relevant material as you could find on the internet, and without any critical processing you post this material, you were able to cover a lot of ground. Neither time, circumstance, nor interest compels me to try to address everything you tried to bring up. But a few observations will demonstrate that your overall note was an ideological exercise of futility which carries no academic weight. Also, since I have posted on July 14 that I will be responding to this post, you heaped a bunch of other ‘stuff’ on it. I will not be printing that out nor responding to most of it. I will mainly address my comments to this thread as it read prior to July 14, 2011.

However, your recent (seemingly rushed) new posts demonstrate clearly your uncritical use of internet materials. On 15 July, 2011 08:27 AM you reposted a post by Yasmeen el-Kabir (Member # 18927) on 22 May, 2011 07:55 PM. You seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that this “Arab of Turkish descent” (an oxymoron) was herself only posting an excerpt from my book, God’s Black Prophets (2010). What point you were hoping to make against me with a ‘white Arab’s’ approving repost of my work is beyond me. But this luminously highlights a trend observable throughout your entire “help”: uncritical use of internet materials.

Much of what you posted Mike is irrelevant to the issue you want to help me out with: the ethnicity of Prophet Muhammad. The early recalcitrance of the Arab Bedouin; how Islamic scholars translate the word hama’ (black mud) in Surah 15 of the Qur’an; the Prophet’s advice on how to test for adultery; these matters and several others in no way advance our understanding of the Classical Arabic discussion and sources for the Prophet’s ethnicity. Most of this stuff at best is only marginally relevant to the question of race and Islam in general. But I know: in cyber scholarship the standards of evidence are lower: “somehow related” is an appropriate substitute for “relevant.”

II. Was Prophet Muhammad Black or White (Let ME Help YOU Out Mike)

So Mike posts a few hadith reports from the Persian traditionalist al-Bukhari to allegedly prove that Muhammad was in fact white and not black. Mike, you are not necessarily wrong for starting there. Al-Bukhari is a very appropriate place to start. You are wrong, however, for relying on an internet posting of Dr Muhammad Muhsin Khan’s translation of al-Bukhari, rather than quoting from al-Bukhari himself. Dr. Khan’s translation has proved mischievous in several places, including your citations. But before I get to that, let me offer a point of clarification.

When I say Prophet Muhammad was Black and not White, I mean he was a black-skinned Arab (who were an Africoid people originally), not a white-skinned Arabian (no semantic game here). There were many groups in Arabia at the time of the Prophet who had migrated there and ‘indigenized’ to an extent. Some of these were white-skinned. There was thus in 7th century Arabia, among others, black-skinned Arabs (al-arab al-a’rabi) and white-skinned migrants. There were also fair-skinned Arabs groups who fair-skinned resulted from miscegenation. The aggregate of the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Muhammad was a noble black-skinned Arab and not a white-skinned Arabian or fair-skinned mixed-breed.

That the pure Arab was a black-skinned Arab was pointed out by several of the Arab authors that you (Mike) were unable to consult (for obvious reasons):

Ibn Abi al-Hadid, in his Sharh nahj al-balaghah, [V:56] quotes the famous Arab grammarian Mubarrad (d. 285/898), the leading figure in the Basran grammatical tradition:

“The Arabs used to take pride in their (dark) brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawad) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.”

Likewise, the Arab lexicographer Ibn Manzur (d. 711/1311) in his famous Arabic lexicon, Lisan al-arab [IV:245f], notes that the phrase aswad al-jilda, ‘black-skinned,’ idiomatically meant khalis al-‘arab, “the pure Arabs,” “because the color of most of the Arabs is dark (al-udma).” In other words, blackness of skin among the Arabs indicated purity of Arab ethnicity. Likewise did the famous grammarian from the century prior, Muhammad b. Barri al-‘Adawi (d. 589/1193) note that an akhdar or black-skinned Arab was “a pure Arab (‘arabi mahd)” with a pure genealogy, “because Arabs describe their color as black (al-aswad).”

Prophet Muhammad, as a noble Arab, must have been black-skinned as well. And this is exactly what the Classical Arabic Islamic evidence indicates. But what about Mike’s hadith reports? Let’s see.
Of the five reports cited by Mike, only two directly address the issue Muhammad’s color (which begs the question why even cite the others and clutter the discussion?). This is what Mike quotes:

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:

Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid: “I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

This is clearly evidence to Mike that I am wrong: the Prophet is white (skinned), not black-skinned as I claim. We have it right there in the hadith report: “"He was white and his beard was black.” Checkmate.

Except, the mate is not yet checked.

Poor Mike’s problem is his reliance on an English translation of an Arabic idiom completely abstracted from the Classical Arabic context that gives that idiom meaning. The Arabic term translated by Dr Khan as white is abyad. This term usually means ‘white’ in contexts not related to human complexion. In the latter context, however, by antiphrasis abyad/bayad frequently means black [Stewart, 1999: 119; Shivtiel, 1991:336]. But in Classical Arabic there are several distinct ‘blacknessess’ or ‘shades of blackness’ as pointed out by both al-Tha‘labīb in his Fiqh al-lugha [82-82] as well as al-Asyuti in his Jawāhir al-‘uqud wa-mu’īn al-qudāt wal-muwaqqi’īn wal-shuhūd [II: 574]. Abyad/bayad is a particular shade or ‘type’ of blackness. According to the important Syrian hadith scholar and historian of Islam, Shāms al-Dīn Abū `Abd Allāh al-Dhahabī (d. 1348), in his Siyar a’lām al-nubalā’ [II:168]:

“When Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad),’ they mean a golden brown complexion with a black appearance (al-hintī al-lawn bi-hilya sudā’). Like the complexion of the people of India, brown and black (asmar wa ādam), i.e. a clear, refined blackness (sawad al-takrūr).”

Thus, when abyad is used to describe the human complexion, it means a refined black complexion [free of blemishes] with a golden-brown hue. This golden brown hue is no doubt due to the luminosity or glow that is also implied by the term: the gloss and sheen (saqala wa safa’) that sits on and thus interacts with a refined black complexion [See Muhammad, 2011: 23-24]

Abyad/bayad as a description of human complexion is to be distinguished from ahmar, red i.e. white-skinned. Ibn Manzur [Lisan al-arab IV: 210] notes:

“Red (al-hamra’) refers to non-Arabs due to their fair complexion which predominates among them. And the Arabs used to say about the non-Arabs with whom white skin was characteristic, such as the Romans, Persians, and their neighbors: ‘They are red-skinned (al-hamra’)…” al-hamra’ means the Persians and Romans…And the Arabs attribute white skin to the slaves.”

Thus, the Arabic version of the hadith Mike thinks proves his point, actually proves MY point: Muhammad is not described there as ahmar (white-skinned). He is described as abyad: possessing a refined and luminous black complexion.

Mike’s second relevant quoted hadith is as follows:

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 747:


Narrated Rabia bin Abi Abdur-Rahman: “I heard Anas bin Malik describing the Prophet saying, "He was of medium height amongst the people, neither tall nor short; he had a rosy color, neither absolutely white nor deep brown; his hair was neither completely curly nor quite lank. Divine Inspiration was revealed to him when he was forty years old. He stayed ten years in Mecca receiving the Divine Inspiration, and stayed in Medina for ten more years. When he expired, he had scarcely twenty white hairs in his head and beard." Rabi'a said, "I saw some of his hairs and it was red. When I asked about that, I was told that it turned red because of scent."

This is one of the more outrageous examples of Dr. Khan’s mischievous translations. The actual Arabic reads:

“The Messenger of Allah (s) was neither tall, such that he would stand out, nor was he short. He was not albino-white (al-abyad al-amhaq), nor was he deep black (adam). His hair was neither very curly nor completely straight. Allah commissioned him towards the end of his fortieth year. He remained in Mecca for ten years and in Medina for ten years. Allah caused him to pass away at the turn of his sixtieth year and there was not found on his head and beard [as much as] twenty white hairs.”

Notice that there is no mention of the Prophet’s alleged “rosy color”. That was Dr. Khan’s wishful thinking.

To get a clear understanding of what is meant and implied by this hadith by Anas b. Malik, we must turn to another hadith by him. The Persian al-Bukahri does not cite the following hadith in his collection, but the Black Arabs al-Tirmidhi (from the Banu Sulaym) and Ibn Hanbal (from the Banu Shayban) do. These are more of the Arab authors Mike could have, and should have, consulted:

“Anas b. Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah was of medium stature, neither tall nor short, [with] a beautiful, dark brown-complexioned body (hasan al-jism asmar al-lawn). His hair was neither curly nor completely straight and when he walked he leant forward.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhi, VI:69; Musnad III: 969]

Muhammad’s complexion was therefore dark-brown, asmar, which is short of adam, very black.

Mike concludes this section of his discussion with the claim: “The battle raged from early on: was Muhammad Black or White.” He has presented evidence neither of this battle nor of Muhammad’s white-skinned-ness. Such evidence is sure in the Islamic literature. He just didn’t know where to look or even how to look if the sources were emailed to him.

III. Mike’s Heavy-handed, non-contextual use of Hadith

Mike cites the following hadith with variants:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 269:

Narrated Sahl bin Saud:

“'Uwaimir came to 'Asim bin 'Adi who was the chief of Bani Ajlan and said, "What do you say about a man who has found another man with his wife? Should he kill him whereupon you would kill him (i.e. the husband), or what should he do? Please ask Allah's Apostle about this matter on my behalf." Asim then went to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! (And asked him that question) but Allah's Apostle disliked the question," When 'Uwaimir asked 'Asim (about the Prophet's answer) 'Asim replied that Allah's Apostle disliked such questions and considered it shameful. "Uwaimir then said, "By Allah, I will not give up asking unless I ask Allah's Apostle about it." Uwaimir came (to the Prophet ) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! A man has found another man with his wife! Should he kill him whereupon you would kill him (the husband, in Qisas) or what should he do?" Allah's Apostle said, "Allah has revealed regarding you and your wife's case in the Qur'an "So Allah's Apostle ordered them to perform the measures of Mula'ana according to what Allah had mentioned in His Book. So 'Uwaimir did Mula'ana with her and said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I kept her I would oppress her." So 'Uwaimir divorced her and so divorce became a tradition after them for those who happened to be involved in a case of Mula'ana. Allah's Apostle then said, "Look! If she (Uwaimir's wife) delivers a black child with deep black large eyes, big hips and fat legs, then I will be of the opinion that 'Uwaimir has spoken the truth; but if she delivers a red child looking like a Wahra then we will consider that 'Uwaimir has told a lie against her." Later on she delivered a child carrying the qualities which Allah's Apostle had mentioned as a proof for 'Uwaimir's claim; therefore the child was ascribed to its mother henceforth.”

Mike then provides the following commentary: “Oh oh, this also DEFINITELY doesn't sound like the ‘Black is beautiful’ song!”

I was left scratching my head after reading this. No, there is no ‘Black is Beautiful’ message jumping of the page, but there is no ‘Black is Ugly’ message here either. Why draw such an implied message from the fact that Uwaymir’s wife committed adultery, the evidence of which is a chubby black baby? There is nothing derogatory here, just descriptive. You, Mike, here and elsewhere, are chasing anti-black racist ghosts where there are none. Now, there is surely plenty of anti-black Islamic literature you could have cited to greater profit. But the ones you chose are poor examples and your reading of them speaks more to your view of things rather than to how things really were in Islam. This is but one more example of your methodological immaturity Mike. Similarly, neither does this hadith necessarily say anything about the blackness or whiteness of the Arabs. What do you know, Mike, about Uwaymir and his tribe? Likely, nothing. You should not, then, read into this any evidence of the ‘non-blackness’ of the Arabs.

Similarly, but even more tellingly, is your citing of another hadith:

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 417:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

“A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "My wife has delivered a black boy, and I suspect that he is not my child." Allah's Apostle said to him, "Have you got camels?" The bedouin said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "What color are they?" The bedouin said, "They are red." The Prophet said, "Are any of them Grey?" He said, "There are Grey ones among them." The Prophet said, "Whence do you think this color came to them?" The bedouin said, "O Allah's Apostle! It resulted from hereditary disposition." The Prophet said, "And this (i.e., your child) has inherited his color from his ancestors." The Prophet did not allow him to deny his paternity of the child.”

Now admittedly, Mike does not provide any explicit commentary on this hadith. However, the string of hadiths which contextualize this one gives a pretty clear idea of what he likely intended this report to convey: the birth of a black child to the wife of a surprised and therefore suspicious Bedouin means Arabs aren’t black. If this is not what you intended to suggest by your citation of this report Mike, I await your true but omitted commentary on it. In any case, this reading is wrong and the opposite meaning is surely closer to truth. There were fair-skinned tribes in Arabia at that time, like the Banu Taym and the Banu Yashkur. These fair-skinned Arab tribes resulted from miscegenation with fair-skinned migrants to the peninsula as well as the importation of northern concubines. This report serves notice of them: your Arab ancestors were Black! This interpretation commends itself when this report is understood in its native context, the Classical Arabic Islamic tradition of the pure Black Arabs cited above, rather than a foreign context, i.e. your 21st century Western, probably Afrocentrist tradition of approaching Islam ideologically. But the larger point here is that you, Mike, again throw up hadith reports whose Classical Arabic Islamic context you are completely unaware of. This is how you intend to help me understand Prophet Muhammad’s ethnicity?

IV. Mike’s Use of Al-Tabari: Shame on You

Mike quotes the following traditions from al-Tabari’s famed Ta’rikh al-rusul wa’l-muluk (though he certainly didn’t quote them from there):

Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."

Mike’s by now predictable commentary follows: “Darn! He wanted Africans to turn White so that they could be Slaves???? Not exactly what I was hoping for!”

Mike’s point is that even a ‘dark skinned Persian’, a ‘brother’ Mike calls him, cannot resist the racist pull inherent in Islam. This, Mike, screams your disqualification to speak on any matter related to Islamic history or texts again. Your Islamic scholarship is not only profoundly methodologically flawed, but simply sloppy as hell too.

Firstly, you prove your early confession: “I am not an expert on important figures of Islam.” No, you certainly are not. But you are not even a good student of them either. If you were, you would know that al-Tabari’s method of dealing with the historical and exegetical material that came to him was to present all that he deemed authentic, regardless of any inner conflict. In both his Ta’rikh (Annals) and his Tafsir (Qur’anic commentary) al-Tabari presents many conflicting traditions equally, sometimes giving his personal preference at the end. Mike, please quote for us where al-Tabari articulates his preference for this ‘Noahide ethnography’? More importantly, why didn’t you, Mike, cite the OTHER relevant Noahide ethnographies that al-Tabari cites as well, especially the following:

“The Children of Sam (Shem) settled al-Majdal, the center of the Earth, which is between Satidima and the sea and between Yemen and Syria. Allah made the prophets from them, revealed the Books to them, made them beautiful, gave them a black complexion, luminous and free of blemish (al-udma wa l-bayad). The children of Ham settled in the south, along the course of the south and west wind-this region is called al-Darum. Allah gave them a black complexion, a few of whom were also luminous and free of blemish…The children of Japheth settled in al-Safun, along the course of the north and east wind. They are ruddy-complexioned and very fair-skinned (al-humra wa l-shaqra).” [I: 220-221]

In two other variant reports, it is said: “Born to Noah were Shem, whose descendents were bayad wa’ adam, black-skinned and luminous; Ham, whose descendents were black (sudan), but some were black and luminous (bayad)…” [I:199]

These traditions make a number of important and relevant points. First, both Semites and Hamites are black-skinned, in contrast to the fair-skinned Japhites of the north. Second, there is a distinction between the two black complexions: the Arab’s black complexion is characterized by being bayad, i.e. free of blemish and imbued with a sheen or luminosity. On the other hand, the black complexion of most (but not all) Hamites lacks this characteristic and is thus called sudan, which in some Arabic sources means “non-abyad black”. In other words, the difference reported here between Arab and African complexions is that of refinement and luminosity, not chromaticity. This was a common Arabic motif. See for example a poet’s satirical reproach against the black-skinned Ubayd Allah, son of the Ethiopian Companion Abu Bakra, who claimed regarding Nubian blacks: “God put no light in their complexions!” [Baladhuri, Ansab, I: 505]. Well, according to the reports cited by al-Tabari, and omitted by you, God did put light in some “Hamitic” Africans’ complexions.

Sir Mike, what is the authority for your claim that the al-Tabari reports mean “He wanted Africans to turn White so that they could be Slaves”? The reports, as you cite them, only claim that Noah prayed that Ham’s color “changes”. Why do you assume that the change is from black to white? Where in the text does it say this? Had you been able to discuss these matters from the perspective of the Arabic texts themselves, and had you been familiar beyond the internet with the Classical Arabic Islamic discussion of these matters, you would have known that your interpretation is inappropriate. See for example the following tradition, reported by Ibn Qutayba (d. 889):

“Ham the son of Noah was (originally) bayad, with a handsome face and a fine figure, and Almighty God changed his color and the color of his descendants in response to his father’s curse. He went away, followed by his sons, and they settled by the shore, where God increased and multiplied them. They are the blacks (sūdān).” [Kitāb al-Ma’ārif, 26]

Ham’s original color was, like Shem, abyad/bayad, refined, black and luminous. However, the ‘curse’, far from turning it ‘white,’ turned it sudan. In other words, the change was not from black to white, but from abyad/bayad to sudan, i.e from black and luminous to black and non-luminous! Yes see, Mike, your dark-skinned Persian, “Brother al-Tabari,” was not necessarily documenting with your cited reports any white anti-black racism. Rather, it is just as possible that they reflect another example of ‘black-on-black’ bigotry, a phenomenon that is in no way peculiar to the African experience in Islam. That is to say, black Arabs were, like many other African (and non-African) groups, very ethnocentric and judged others, including other black-skinned groups, according to their own standards of beauty. This is no more an indictment against Islam than it is against Kemetic Ma’at.

I can go on for days. I could deal just as easily with your other “thrown up” reports, but why? I think the point is made. Your knowledge of things Islamic is shallow and you are methodologically unlearned or unconcerned. You so presumptuously thought you would help me out in my understanding of Muhammad and Islam, while I am trained in the critical – not theological – engagement of the Classical Arabic Islamic tradition. Yet you demonstrably have a familiarity with this tradition that only marginally, if at all, goes beyond what one might acquire via Google. What self-deluded arrogance!

The tone of this dialogue was pre-set by you and others with no help from me. I have no intention of engaging you or anyone in a prolonged intellectual wrestling match or a battle of wits. I am humble enough to know what I don’t know – what I am not sufficiently learned in – and to learn from those who are. I know how to stay in my lane and defer to others on matters outside my lane. Mike, Islamic studies is clearly out of your lane. Are you humble enough to admit this?

Peace

Wesley Muhammad, PhD.


References

Muhammad, Wesley. (2011) “ ‘Anyone who says that the Prophet is black should be killed’: The De-Arabization of Islam and the Transfiguration of Muhammad in Islamic Tradition.” Unpublished Paper @ http://drwesleywilliams.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Muhammad_Article.68163111.pdf


Shivtiel, Avihai. (1991) “The Semantic Field of Colours in Arabic,” The Arabist 3-4: 335-339.

Stewart, Devin J. (1999) “Color Terms in Egyptian Arabic,” The Language of Color in the Mediterranean, ed. Alexander Borg (Stockholm, Almgvist and Wiksell International): 105-120.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Dr. Muhammad, I don't know if you are aware of Mike's website:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/.search?query=persians&name=Search

Mike has always maintained that the Persians were black:

Elam: The Black Persians

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Elam_Iran_2a.htm


One of Mike's favorite attempts at proving this are the following wall reliefs:







^^^Mike says these represent black people-also refer to text in above links from his website

_______________________________________________

quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:


1. The answer to the question of the ethnicity of Muhammad and the valuation of Black people in Islamic literature does indeed often depend on whether the answerer is Black or White, Arab or non-Arab. But you have failed to recognize (no doubt due to your above-noted blind spot) that these are converging categories, i.e. Arab=Black and White=non-Arab. I have demonstrated this e.g. here http://drwesleywilliams.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Muhammad_Article.170121832.pdf

---

I find this simplistic, the duality of just having two categories "black" and "white".

Arabia/Middle East/N. Africa are prime examples of places where many of the people are intermediate half way between black and white. Therefore neither term can be applied defitively.
"Arab" is considered a cultural term not pinned down to strict racial indications.

Are these people all mulatto mixtures?
No I would say not.
All people originate from Africa. As Africans migrated North, out of Africa, over thousands of years they began to lose melanin skin pigmentation. Not as much was needed to protect them from solar radiation. But the Middle eats is next door to Africa, not that far North.
Arabia had various influxes from North and South. For example many of the people from Jordan, Syria and Iraq don't fall into these simple one or two. either/or racial categories "black" or "white"

For example look at these folks:



Mohammed Zidan (Lower Egyptian)









This equation:

Arab=Black and White=non-Arab

seems not to apply to the above persons, because they do not neatly fit into the stereotypes "black" or "white" exclusively.
In the Middle East (or whatever name you prefer for this geographical area) this more often seems to be the rule rather than the the exception
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Lioness - They are MULATTOES! Mulattoes are MIXED race people. Your state of denial won't change that.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.

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wesleymuhammad - Perhaps you missed this.
In any event, I certainly appreciate the crash course in Islam, though I must say, it does seem extremely complicated.
 

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Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
Hello,
Dr. Williams

If you were define the physical appearance/complexion of the following two Arabs compared with your own, which words you would use.
thanx

 

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Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
"He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." He then then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib." -Sahih Bukhari 1:3:63

I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be open him) pronouncing taslim on his right and on his left till I saw the whiteness of his cheek"
-Sahih Muslim 4:1208


More form the Hadith


Volume 1, Book 3, Number 63:
"Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." The an then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
---
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:
Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid:
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Volume 2, Book 17, Number 122:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Dinar:
My father said, "I heard Ibn 'Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib: And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows."
---
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141:
Narrated Anas bin Malik
The Prophet never raised his hands for any invocation except for that of Istisqa' and he used to raise them so much that the whiteness of his armpits became visible.
---
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:
He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet."

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I guess someone didn't familiarize themselves with the classical Arabic or read Wesley Muhammad's articl let along Tariq Berry's site.

The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.


Dhahabi, a Syrian who travelled through the Hijaz commented,
"When Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad),’ they mean a golden brown complexion with a black appearance (al-hinãÊ al-lawn bi-hilya suda"). Like the complexion of the people of India, brown and black (asmar wa adam), i.e. a clear, refined blackness (sawad al-takrår)” .
Ibn Manzur of Tunisia 14th century, who wrote essentially the same as Dhahabi in his dictionary Lisaan al Arab said:
The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abyad] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abyad] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (aÈmar)… And the Arabs ATTRIBUTE WHITE SKIN TO THE SLAVES. [emphasis mine]"

These were quoted from Tariq Berry's book and Dr. Wesley Muhammad's papers.

The Ibo also use the term "white" in the same way as the ancient Arabs as do other black Africans for their own people.

Early descriptions of Muhammed call him akhdar, later ones he is refered to as reddish white (of course by NON-ARABS) which would fall more into the "white" in the Western sense category.

Most importantly Wesley Muhammad quotes other scholars who were familiar with the term Asmar or Sumra used by al Jauzi and others for both Arabs and Abyssians. Hence the Arabians were the color of Abyssinians i.e. the Ethiopians and the southern Sudanese. This is the range of their blackness according to early writers dark golden brown of the Beja sort to jet black (shadeed al udma) of the southern Sudan or Somalia.

This is why Jahiz said if they are fair in color then they are from the Persians, slabs or Saqaliba, Rum (Byzantines) etc.

Muhammad has also put on line a paper that deals with the Chinese Muslim manuscripts in which all descriptions of Arabs are that they are black or dark brown in color.

http://drwesleywilliams.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Muhammad_Black_Arabs_China_Site.187112134.pdf


So much for the Iranian Abbasid hadiths. Truthfully some of them leave you wondering if they knew what Arabs in Arabia even looked like.

Wesley Muhammad is not asking "was Muhammed "white" or "black", It is obvious what he WASN'T. (And not that that matters ) His papers explore how a man whose tribe and clan was so famously black in color became "white" in the eyes of other Middle Eastern peoples.


Muhammad was a member of the Banu Hashim a clan of the Quraysh a branch of Kenaanah a notoriously black tribe of the notoriously black children of Qedar or Adnanites. Many of their descendants still occupy Iraq and the Shott al Arab still resembling the Bisharin and Africans of the Horn and Arabs of Sudan and Sahel.

The tribes closely related to Muhammeds clan remain and the Quraysh remain with "shining" and black skin in the Hijaz or Tihama. Including the Hudhail from which came Banu Makzumi mentioned by Jahiz.

All of Muhammeds direct ancestors on both his father and mother's side are described as near black or jet black in color. As are some of his near descendants.

Dhahabi, the Syrian, also "said Mohamed Al-Nafs Al-Zakia was "black-skinned and huge". Berry first posted on his site about Mohamed Al-Nafs Al-Zakia a letter to the anti-black i.e. Anti Arab Abbasid leaders, “I am descended from the Prophet (SAWS) from my mother's side and my father's side. I am the purest of Bani Hashim…no non-Arab blood flows through my veins, and I AM NOT RELATED TO THE SLAVE GIRLS.” His son Hasan is in fact nicknamed “the FATHER OF TAR” in Ibn Hazim's Jumharat Ansaab Al Arab due to his complexion"

Muhammed's clan was near jet black in color as are modern Kinanah tribes such as Hudhail amd Quraysh. I doubt whether Muhammed was as light as the average African American no matter how shining (or "white" in the Arab dialect of his time) his skin and hair were.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Dr. Muhammad, I don't know if you are aware of Mike's website:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/.search?query=persians&name=Search

Mike has always maintained that the Persians were black:

Elam: The Black Persians

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Elam_Iran_2a.htm


One of Mike's favorite attempts at proving this are the following wall reliefs:







^^^Mike says these represent black people-also refer to text in above links from his website

_______________________________________________

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:


1. The answer to the question of the ethnicity of Muhammad and the valuation of Black people in Islamic literature does indeed often depend on whether the answerer is Black or White, Arab or non-Arab. But you have failed to recognize (no doubt due to your above-noted blind spot) that these are converging categories, i.e. Arab=Black and White=non-Arab. I have demonstrated this e.g. here http://drwesleywilliams.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Muhammad_Article.170121832.pdf

---

I find this simplistic, the duality of just having two categories "black" and "white".

Arabia/Middle East/N. Africa are prime examples of places where many of the people are intermediate half way between black and white. Therefore neither term can be applied defitively.
"Arab" is considered a cultural term not pinned down to strict racial indications.

Are these people all mulatto mixtures?
No I would say not.
All people originate from Africa. As Africans migrated North, out of Africa, over thousands of years they began to lose melanin skin pigmentation. Not as much was needed to protect them from solar radiation. But the Middle eats is next door to Africa, not that far North.
Arabia had various influxes from North and South. For example many of the people from Jordan, Syria and Iraq don't fall into these simple one or two. either/or racial categories "black" or "white"

For example look at these folks:



Mohammed Zidan (Lower Egyptian)









This equation:

Arab=Black and White=non-Arab

seems not to apply to the above persons, because they do not neatly fit into the stereotypes "black" or "white" exclusively.
In the Middle East (or whatever name you prefer for this geographical area) this more often seems to be the rule rather than the the exception

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.

---

wesleymuhammad - Perhaps you missed this.
In any event, I certainly appreciate the crash course in Islam, though I must say, it does seem extremely complicated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
Hello,
Dr. Williams

If you were define the physical appearance/complexion of the following two Arabs compared with your own, which words you would use.
thanx

---

Forgive me Sero, but I don't believe I understand the point of your question: what does MY complexion have to do with anything? This is not personal. Its academic. Lets keep it there.
 

---

Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
Hmm,skin complexion is a important issue of this thread, so why not ask?

quote
I must agree with Mike in that most are probably Mulatto

So again which of these gentlemen do you consider a Mulatto?

 

---

Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Dr. Muhammad, I don't know if you are aware of Mike's website:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/.search?query=persians&name=Search

Mike has always maintained that the Persians were black:

Elam: The Black Persians

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Elam_Iran_2a.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
Hmm,skin complexion is a important issue of this thread, so why not ask?

quote
I must agree with Mike in that most are probably Mulatto

So again which of these gentlemen do you consider a Mulatto?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.

---

wesleymuhammad - Perhaps you missed this.
In any event, I certainly appreciate the crash course in Islam, though I must say, it does seem extremely complicated.

---

code:

---

    Tawhid (theology)
    I. Science of Society --> fiqh (law)
        Madh (laudation)/hadith
        Tafsir (Quranic commentary)
        nahw (grammar)

---

Tawhid allows you to bring into your “Islamic practices” social practices common to your native community. As a result, we find that the Malikite fiqh, was very liberal in relation to women rights, whereas the hanafi and Wahabbi fiqh are less tolerant and in fact see women as little more than slaves.

The reason many people see Islam as offensive in the US today among Afro-Americans, is because the fiqh they follow has nothing to do with their Islamic heritage. Whereas our ancestors were Malikite, today AA Muslims are mainly hanafi (Pakistani form of Islam) and Wahabbi (Arabian form of Islam). The hanafi and Wahabbi schools are dominated by Indo-European and Turk ideas about social relations: the place of women in society and bias towards Black and African people.



Omar ibn Said

The Muslim slaves were Sunni (and Sufi) Muslim scholars like Omar Said, Abdul Rahman and Ben Ali Mohomet. They organized "Islamic schools" spreading the Maliki fiqh on many American plantations to ensure the transmittal of Islamic knowledge to their children, up until the inter-state slave trade; and the institution of the Hanafi fiqh among Afro-Americans since the 1920"s (Winters, 1976, 1983). A fiqh is a school of Islamic thought.



Passage from Quran written by said



Arabic translation of the 23rd Psalm by Omar Ibn Said. Image courtesy of the North Carolina Office of Archives

The Islamic educational systems returned to the Afro-American ghettos with the rise of the Garvey Movement and Ahmadiyyat Movement in the late 1920's and the 1930's (Winters, 1978). It was the Ahmadiyyat Movement which introduced the Hanafi fiqh of Islamic jurisprudence to Afro-Americans (Winters, 1978,1985). Since the main literature on Islam was written by (East Indians) Pakistanis, educated AAs began to adopt hanafi fiqh. Adherence to hanafi fiqh mixed up many AA Muslims who began to see Afro women as slaves.

African Muslims traditionally avoid hanafi and Wahabbi fiqhi. For example, al-Haji Uthman dan Fodio, spoke out against Wahabbism in his writings. Using oil money the Wahabbis have spread their ideology throughout the Muslim world. This has led to discord among Muslims and none Muslims here, and especially in Nigeria and China.

You see Black Muslims like sufism, music and etc. LOL at many contemporary AA Muslims who sheepishly follow the Arabs and Pakistanis in practicing a culture--which they believe shows their Islam--not understanding that social practices says nothing about the Islamic way of life. Practices which my not even conform to the teachings of Quran and early Sunnah.

The Hanafi and Wahabbis are anti sufi, and prefer people to recognize caste and lineages--rather their character, faith, humility and piety. These noble virtues illustrate an Islamic way of life--but are alien in the Islamic religion practiced by Indo-Aryan and Turk Muslims.

In summary, the Islamic way of life is great. It is a simple way of living, i.e., belief in God, Angels and doing right (Maat) to others. This way of living has been accepted by Blacks since the beginning of time. The Islamic religion of the Indo-Aryans, Turks and their followers, like the Christian and Hindu religions, has not been good to blacks, because they transfer a lifestyle onto Blacks that push them away from their own societal practices and roots. sometimes following these fiqh led to Blacks hating themselves.

Back in the 1980's it was common for AAs (who did not belong to the Nation of Islam) to go to Egypt to learn more about Sunni Islam and come home broken and dishearted because of the racism they experienced. This would not have happened if they practiced an Islamic lifestyle, instead of seeking the Islamic religion--i.e., social customs--practiced by the Hanafi and Wahabbis.


References:

Winters, C.A. (Oct.-Nov., 1976). Roots and Islam in slave America. Al-Ittihad, 13(3), 18-20.

Winters, C.A. (1978). Afro-American Muslims from slavery to freedom. Islamic Studies, 17(4), 187-205.

Winters,C.A. (1983). The Afro-Muslim Family, Part I. Islamic Vision, 1(2), 1-5.

Winters, C.A. (April 1985). Going back to the roots. Inquiry, 56-57.
 

---

Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
wesleymuhammad

If I were to post a random pic. of a Arab and claim they are “Japheth Mulattos” based on appearance/complexion, you would be nodding.
But if I ask which of these 3 gentlemen is a Mulatto based on complexion, I get no answer from someone who is a expert on complexion terms.

 

---

Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.

---

wesleymuhammad - Perhaps you missed this.
In any event, I certainly appreciate the crash course in Islam, though I must say, it does seem extremely complicated.

---

The Islamic way of life is not complicated.Islam calls on the believer to do several things, believe in God (Allah) and his angels, God’s Prophets, Do Good and make the pilgrimage to Mecca if you are able.

The problem today is that people believe in the Islamic religion, not the Islamic way of life. The Islamic religion is based on fiqh, a school of Islamic law.

In the Islamic tradition of learning, zahir studies refer to the study of the scripture and sources of Islam. The zahir curriculum includes three areas , but the Islamic religion is guided by Tawhid.

code:

---

    Tawhid (theology)
    I. Science of Society --> fiqh (law)
        Madh (laudation)/hadith
        Tafsir (Quranic commentary)
        nahw (grammar)

---

Tawhid allows you to bring into your “Islamic practices” social practices common to your native community. As a result, we find that the Malikite fiqh, was very liberal in relation to women rights, whereas the hanafi and Wahabbi fiqh are less tolerant and in fact see women as little more than slaves.

The reason many people see Islam as offensive in the US today among Afro-Americans, is because the fiqh they follow has nothing to do with their Islamic heritage. Whereas our ancestors were Malikite, today AA Muslims are mainly hanafi (Pakistani form of Islam) and Wahabbi (Arabian form of Islam). The hanafi and Wahabbi schools are dominated by Indo-European and Turk ideas about social relations: the place of women in society and bias towards Black and African people.



Omar ibn Said

The Muslim slaves were Sunni (and Sufi) Muslim scholars like Omar Said, Abdul Rahman and Ben Ali Mohomet. They organized "Islamic schools" spreading the Maliki fiqh on many American plantations to ensure the transmittal of Islamic knowledge to their children, up until the inter-state slave trade; and the institution of the Hanafi fiqh among Afro-Americans since the 1920"s (Winters, 1976, 1983). A fiqh is a school of Islamic thought.



Passage from Quran written by said



Arabic translation of the 23rd Psalm by Omar Ibn Said. Image courtesy of the North Carolina Office of Archives

The Islamic educational systems returned to the Afro-American ghettos with the rise of the Garvey Movement and Ahmadiyyat Movement in the late 1920's and the 1930's (Winters, 1978). It was the Ahmadiyyat Movement which introduced the Hanafi fiqh of Islamic jurisprudence to Afro-Americans (Winters, 1978,1985). Since the main literature on Islam was written by (East Indians) Pakistanis, educated AAs began to adopt hanafi fiqh. Adherence to hanafi fiqh mixed up many AA Muslims who began to see Afro women as slaves.

African Muslims traditionally avoid hanafi and Wahabbi fiqhi. For example, al-Haji Uthman dan Fodio, spoke out against Wahabbism in his writings. Using oil money the Wahabbis have spread their ideology throughout the Muslim world. This has led to discord among Muslims and none Muslims here, and especially in Nigeria and China.

You see Black Muslims like sufism, music and etc. LOL at many contemporary AA Muslims who sheepishly follow the Arabs and Pakistanis in practicing a culture--which they believe shows their Islam--not understanding that social practices says nothing about the Islamic way of life. Practices which my not even conform to the teachings of Quran and early Sunnah.

The Hanafi and Wahabbis are anti sufi, and prefer people to recognize caste and lineages--rather their character, faith, humility and piety. These noble virtues illustrate an Islamic way of life--but are alien in the Islamic religion practiced by Indo-Aryan and Turk Muslims.

In summary, the Islamic way of life is great. It is a simple way of living, i.e., belief in God, Angels and doing right (Maat) to others. This way of living has been accepted by Blacks since the beginning of time. The Islamic religion of the Indo-Aryans, Turks and their followers, like the Christian and Hindu religions, has not been good to blacks, because they transfer a lifestyle onto Blacks that push them away from their own societal practices and roots. sometimes following these fiqh led to Blacks hating themselves.

Back in the 1980's it was common for AAs (who did not belong to the Nation of Islam) to go to Egypt to learn more about Sunni Islam and come home broken and dishearted because of the racism they experienced. This would not have happened if they practiced an Islamic lifestyle, instead of seeking the Islamic religion--i.e., social customs--practiced by the Hanafi and Wahabbis.


References:

Winters, C.A. (Oct.-Nov., 1976). Roots and Islam in slave America. Al-Ittihad, 13(3), 18-20.

Winters, C.A. (1978). Afro-American Muslims from slavery to freedom. Islamic Studies, 17(4), 187-205.

Winters,C.A. (1983). The Afro-Muslim Family, Part I. Islamic Vision, 1(2), 1-5.

Winters, C.A. (April 1985). Going back to the roots. Inquiry, 56-57.

---

quote:

---

Clyde quote: The Hanafi and Wahabbis are anti sufi, and prefer people to recognize caste and lineages--rather their character, faith, humility and piety. These noble virtues illustrate an Islamic way of life--but are alien in the Islamic religion practiced by Indo-Aryan and Turk Muslims.

In summary, the Islamic way of life is great. It is a simple way of living, i.e., belief in God, Angels and doing right (Maat) to others. This way of living has been accepted by Blacks since the beginning of time. The Islamic religion of the Indo-Aryans, Turks and their followers, like the Christian and Hindu religions, has not been good to blacks, because they transfer a lifestyle onto Blacks that push them away from their own societal practices and roots. sometimes following these fiqh led to Blacks hating themselves.

Back in the 1980's it was common for AAs (who did not belong to the Nation of Islam) to go to Egypt to learn more about Sunni Islam and come home broken and dishearted because of the racism they experienced. This would not have happened if they practiced an Islamic lifestyle, instead of seeking the Islamic religion--i.e., social customs--practiced by the Hanafi and Wahabbis.

---

Clyde, I did not expect this from you, but I am not surprised. You have correctly ascertained my belief that modern Islam is antithetical to historical Black religious thought. Your explanation is persuasive.
 

---

Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
@wesley

Why are your leaders of lighter skin complexion than the masses that follow them?







 

---

Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
modern Islam is antithetical to historical Black religious thought.

---

For the record, I completely concur.
 

---

Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
 


Mek mi get well comfortable...


 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

wesleymuhammad quote: However, the Sassanid Persians were certainly no Africoid Elamites, just as the modern Saudis are no Africoid Arabians.

---

wesleymuhammad - I have never said or intimated that either Persian Empire was Black: it could hardly be called an Empire if it was all of the same people - that is not even a country.

What I have said is that the PERSIANS were Black, ditto Medes. But since you brought it up, I feel obliged to back-up my assertion - so you're going to get the pictures.

I will not indicate who the people are, except for the Persian, Mede, and Elamite, because after these 80 years, the Oriental institute of Chicago university has not seen fit to supply a complete and accurate identification of the subjects.

The subjects of the 1st Persian Empire were as follows: (As listed on Darius's tomb).

1. This is the Persian.
2. This is the Mede.
3. This is the Elamite.
4. This is the Parthian.
5. This is the Arian.
6. This is the Bactrian.
7. This is the Sogdian.
8. This is the Chorasmian.
9. This is the Drangian.
10. This is the Arachosian.
11. This is the Sattagydian.
12. This is the Gandaran.
13. This is the man of Sind.
14. This is the haoma-drinking Saca.
15. This is the Saca with the pointed hat.
16. This is the Babylonian.
17. This is the Syrian.
18. This is the Arab.
19. This is the Egyptian.
20. This is the Armenian.
21. This is the Cappadocian.
22. This is the Lydian.
23. This is the Greek.
24. This is the Scythian from across the sea.
25. This is the Thracian.
26. This is the Macedonian.
27. This is the Libyan.
28. This is the Kushite (White people playing games. Kush was never conquered by the Persians).
29. This is the man of Maka.
30. This is the Carian.



Persian _____________________________________ Mede



Elamite.





 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 










 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 







 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
The 2nd. Persian dynasty - the Sassanian, differed only in it's size. It encompassed far less people.

.





But the Sassanian kings were still Black.












 

---

Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
 
ok...lol...mi ah wonder who didn't see this coming... mi poor yeye dem...
 

---

Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:


But the Sassanian kings were still Black.[/b]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
[QB] @wesley

Why are your leaders of lighter skin complexion than the masses that follow them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^Lioness - They are MULATTOES! Mulattoes are MIXED race people. Your state of denial won't change that.

---

Mike it is your conception that all people who are very light skinned, and you include Many Europeans and light skinned Khosians, are albinos or have albino ancestry.

However, the pictures above for example, an African person with blue eyes or an albino, one who was born without pigmentation.
These things while rare are not enough biologically to justify saying they are of a different "race".
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 


black Persian ???
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Originally posted by Mike111:

Mike, Im going to have to agree with Lioness that you seem to be treating these images with a very heavy hand. What specifically are you identifying as proof of Peroz's blackness here? Have you studied royal artistic conventions of the Sassanids and thus have sufficiently taken these into account in your interpretations? Regarding the earlier photos, is it the curly hair that suggests to you Africanness? Well, while this might be so, it does not seem necessarily so. How do you account for the fact that the curls are at the end of very straight hair? To be sure, "straight" hair is no less "African" than curly, but my point is that there is real ambiguity here that needs to be cleared up by some textual evidence, I suspect.

---

Please show me a depiction from ANYWHERE, of ANY White people so depicted.

Textual evidence????

Like What?

The Egyptians never said that they were Black, ditto the Akkadians, Hebrews, Assyrians, ancient Europeans etc, etc. That is a VERY strange thing to say!

But if it's any help to you:

Confucius say: if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck!
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
these would likely be considered ahmar, red, i.e. white-skinned and therefore non-Arab by the Arabs of the early empire. I could document this likelihood.

---

If this is the case then are the people below with similar skin tones also ahmar, red, i.e. white-skinned



Egyptian



Angola



Namibia



Namibia also



Khosian
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
wesleymuhammad - I'm thinking that the problem is that you can't envision with a profile image. No problem, I have frontal images.


Sassanian kings were rarely annotated on their artifacts. But, they all used different crown designs. So modern researchers must identify them via their crown design.

This plate is identified as belonging to King Peroz, because of the vertical crescent.






On that basis, thought declared unidentified, this is a statue of Peroz I.
If you disagree with the identification, just remember, the salient point is that he is a Sassanian king.





Lioness, I even have a "Mulatto" (Parthian/Persian) Persian prince for you.


 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Lioness - GO AWAY!

No one wants to argue Mulattoes with you.

BTW - Just WHAT kind of Mulatto are you?
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Mike I will step aside now and let Dr. Muhammad roast your ass

Dr. Muhammad:

before you proceed to teach Mike, in light that he has a history based website, it might be helpful for you to inform him and basic standards and procedures of how to make a scholarly presentation and not be self contradictory.
He seems lost as to this. One small example,



^^^He often puts photos up like this, the caption simply says "Darius". There is no source, date or location listed. That's basic

Mike is a man alone. He wrote all the articles on
http://www.realhistoryww.com

One thing that is good about the site is the search engine. On the home page as soon as you click on a historical period the search field will come up and if you type in a key word, a thorough listing will show of where that word or phrase appears in the various "articles" over the entire site

Also, it appears that Mike never updates information. If he says something on the site and then learns new information that might entail changing what he said, he doesn't.
He's thick that way
 

---

Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
Yemen's President Saleh with and without tan.


 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
Yemen's President Saleh with and without tan.

---

This is very interesting.

President Saleh could be "white" or "black" according to how often he stayed out in the sun.
If he stayed out a lot, he would be dark constantly.

What about "Mulatto" ?

This type of concept doesn't apply to the ancient period we are speaking of.

Similarly modern day concept of "black" and "white" don't apply either.
Modern day concepts attach other racial traits to the word "black".
For example in America a Pakistani man who runs a grocery store in a black neighborhood is not considered black even though he might have darker skin than some of the customers who are considered "black"





Of course these modern day American "racial" definitions do not apply to ancient descriptions which only entail skin color
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Which is the REAL Yemen's President Saleh?
I don't know, it seems to depend on the lighting.
But one thing for sure, he is not Black, and he is not White.

Gee, what's left?

An Arab? - No that's not a race.

A Mongol? - That's a race, but he doesn't look Chinese.

Damn, I'm stumped. Lioness can you help?

He, he.






 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Is Sanigbino a word?
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
LOL, Westly Muhammed don't waste your time with Mike he has already been schooled on the Persians..
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

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[qb]Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Originally posted by Mike111:

Mike, Im going to have to agree with Lioness that you seem to be treating these images with a very heavy hand. What specifically are you identifying as proof of Peroz's blackness here? Have you studied royal artistic conventions of the Sassanids and thus have sufficiently taken these into account in your interpretations? Regarding the earlier photos, is it the curly hair that suggests to you Africanness? Well, while this might be so, it does not seem necessarily so. How do you account for the fact that the curls are at the end of very straight hair? To be sure, "straight" hair is no less "African" than curly, but my point is that there is real ambiguity here that needs to be cleared up by some textual evidence, I suspect.

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Please show me a depiction from ANYWHERE, of ANY White people so depicted.

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Yes, because if it ain't White, it must be Black, right? Your response is beyond silly, Mike.
 

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Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
And that's the confounded thing about "race" which is often subject to arbitrary definition--as in the U.S.

If Saleh were U.S. born but of a Yemeni family that migrated to the U.S.[just like the Christian Lebanese: Ralph Nader, Helen Thomas, etc.] 3 or 4 generations back he could easily be a member of the so-called "Black Caucus". Why? Because his phenotype does evidently contain elements of African DNA. Well, how so? The hair and facial structure. In Dakar, Senegal, Saleh would get unsolicited greetings from Mauritanians.
 

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Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
And Saleh's present pigmentation. The man was in Arabia recently seeking treatment for face and body burns. His palace and his person were attacked and he was caught in the attack conflagration.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sundjata:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

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[qb]Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Originally posted by Mike111:

Mike, Im going to have to agree with Lioness that you seem to be treating these images with a very heavy hand. What specifically are you identifying as proof of Peroz's blackness here? Have you studied royal artistic conventions of the Sassanids and thus have sufficiently taken these into account in your interpretations? Regarding the earlier photos, is it the curly hair that suggests to you Africanness? Well, while this might be so, it does not seem necessarily so. How do you account for the fact that the curls are at the end of very straight hair? To be sure, "straight" hair is no less "African" than curly, but my point is that there is real ambiguity here that needs to be cleared up by some textual evidence, I suspect.

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Please show me a depiction from ANYWHERE, of ANY White people so depicted.

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Yes, because if it ain't White, it must be Black, right? Your response is beyond silly, Mike.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:



When I say Prophet Muhammad was Black and not White, I mean he was a black-skinned Arab (who were an Africoid people originally), not a white-skinned Arabian (no semantic game here). There were many groups in Arabia at the time of the Prophet who had migrated there and ‘indigenized’ to an extent. Some of these were white-skinned. There was thus in 7th century Arabia, among others, black-skinned Arabs (al-arab al-a’rabi) and white-skinned migrants. There were also fair-skinned Arabs groups who fair-skinned resulted from miscegenation. The aggregate of the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Muhammad was a noble black-skinned Arab and not a white-skinned Arabian or fair-skinned mixed-breed.

That the pure Arab was a black-skinned Arab was pointed out by several of the Arab authors that you (Mike) were unable to consult (for obvious reasons):

Ibn Abi al-Hadid, in his Sharh nahj al-balaghah, [V:56] quotes the famous Arab grammarian Mubarrad (d. 285/898), the leading figure in the Basran grammatical tradition:

“The Arabs used to take pride in their (dark) brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawad) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.”

Likewise, the Arab lexicographer Ibn Manzur (d. 711/1311) in his famous Arabic lexicon, Lisan al-arab [IV:245f], notes that the phrase aswad al-jilda, ‘black-skinned,’ idiomatically meant khalis al-‘arab, “the pure Arabs,” “because the color of most of the Arabs is dark (al-udma).” In other words, blackness of skin among the Arabs indicated purity of Arab ethnicity. Likewise did the famous grammarian from the century prior, Muhammad b. Barri al-‘Adawi (d. 589/1193) note that an akhdar or black-skinned Arab was “a pure Arab (‘arabi mahd)” with a pure genealogy, “because Arabs describe their color as black (al-aswad).”

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quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:

quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:



When I say Prophet Muhammad was Black and not White, I mean he was a black-skinned Arab (who were an Africoid people originally), not a white-skinned Arabian (no semantic game here). There were many groups in Arabia at the time of the Prophet who had migrated there and ‘indigenized’ to an extent. Some of these were white-skinned. There was thus in 7th century Arabia, among others, black-skinned Arabs (al-arab al-a’rabi) and white-skinned migrants. There were also fair-skinned Arabs groups who fair-skinned resulted from miscegenation. The aggregate of the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Muhammad was a noble black-skinned Arab and not a white-skinned Arabian or fair-skinned mixed-breed.

That the pure Arab was a black-skinned Arab was pointed out by several of the Arab authors that you (Mike) were unable to consult (for obvious reasons):

Ibn Abi al-Hadid, in his Sharh nahj al-balaghah, [V:56] quotes the famous Arab grammarian Mubarrad (d. 285/898), the leading figure in the Basran grammatical tradition:

“The Arabs used to take pride in their (dark) brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawad) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.”

Likewise, the Arab lexicographer Ibn Manzur (d. 711/1311) in his famous Arabic lexicon, Lisan al-arab [IV:245f], notes that the phrase aswad al-jilda, ‘black-skinned,’ idiomatically meant khalis al-‘arab, “the pure Arabs,” “because the color of most of the Arabs is dark (al-udma).” In other words, blackness of skin among the Arabs indicated purity of Arab ethnicity. Likewise did the famous grammarian from the century prior, Muhammad b. Barri al-‘Adawi (d. 589/1193) note that an akhdar or black-skinned Arab was “a pure Arab (‘arabi mahd)” with a pure genealogy, “because Arabs describe their color as black (al-aswad).”

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Just a reminder of the clarification I tried to offer earlier. Yes, in the American context "Black" and "White" are ambiguous racial terms. However, as noted, I am not using these terms in the American racial sense. I simply mean "black-skinned" and “white-skinned”. Now, blackness was understood by the Classical Arabs as a color with several shades. The linguist Abu Mansur al-Tha’labi (d. 1036) enumerates the different “classifications of human blackness (fi tartib sawad al-insan)” in his Fiqh al-lugha 82:

“When his maximum [blackness] (alahu) is less than sawad (black), then he is asmar (dark brown). If his blackness is greater with yellow enhancing it then he is asham. If his blackness exceeds al-sumra then he is ādam. If it exceeds that, then it is asham. If his blackness is intense, then he is adlam.”

An even more detailed classification is provided by Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Minhājī al-Asyūtī (d. 1475) in his Jawāhir al-‘uqud wa-mu’īn al-qudāt wal-muwaqqi’īn wal-shuhūd, which is a two volume composition of principles and models to be followed by judges, notaries and witnesses in drafting legal decisions. Al-Asyuti has a section on human complexions, in which he reports about the many shades of blackness (and whiteness) and their technical legal descriptions:

“If a person’s complexion is very black (shadīd al-sawād), he is described as hālik. If his/her blackness is mixed with red, he/she is daghmān. If his complexion is lighter than that, he is asham. If the blackness is mixed with yellow, it is ashum. If his complexion in dark (kudra), it is described as arbad. If it is lighter than that (i.e. arbad), it is abyad. If there is less yellow and the complexion inclines toward black, it is ādam. If it is lighter than arbad and darker than ādam, it is shadīd al-udma. If it is lighter than ādam, it is shadīd al-sumra. If lighter than that, it is asmar. If lighter still, it is raqīq al-sumra [light brown]. If lighter and inclines towards a fair complexion it is described as light brown [safi al-sumra] with fair-skin [al-humra] prevailing. It is also described as raqīq al-sumra with fairness.” [II:574]

Note, among other things, that the term abyad which, in non-human contexts denotes the color white, in human contexts is a shade of black.
Now the Arabs were a black-skinned group, who identified their complexion as aswad (black), usually meaning asmar, dark brown. Ibn al-Jawzī (d. 1200), in his Kitāb tanwīr al-ghabash fī fadl ‘l-sūdān wa’l-habash, describes the Ethiopian as asmar, ‘dark-brown’, the same self-description of the Arabs. The fact that the Arab’s ‘blackness’ was of a similar nature as that of the Africans (but allegedly with a more ‘refined’ complexion) was pointed out frequently. Ibn Hawqal [d. 969), in his Kitab surat al-ard [103], notes that the African Beja (Bujah), while darker than the Ethiopians, are the same complexion as the Arabs. Al-Jahiz [d. 869), in his Fakhr al-sudan ala al-bidan, 220 quotes from the Zanj (East Africans): “Our blackness is not different from the blackness of the Banu Sulaym and other Arab tribes.”

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1) what category are the following people
they seem like they could fit one of the black categories you mentioned above rather than being particularly reddish







2)in your opinion does Allah as per what the have a preference for people of a particular skin type as per the Qu'ran or other book?


3) Is God and Allah the same?
you had indicated that Allah was a man in your writings. How does that square with the black man being God? Do you mean black people are Allah?

4) If God and Allah are not the same is God the creator or is Allah the creator? I would find it strange to have God and Allah to be different because that doesn't seem to square with the Qu'ran. Most scholars would say Allah is the Arabic word for God and it means the same thing, the creator

thank you Dr.Muhammad
 

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Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
^That is amazing wesleymuhammad. I had already thought the Arabs intellectually challenged: by virtue of their importing slaves, giving them weapons, and expecting them to be loyal soldiers (the Turkic Mamlukes).

Of course a person with normal intelligence would know that armed slaves don't stay slaves for very long.

But now the obsession with skin color: I lost count, what is that, a dozen shades of Black? WOW, you really need to have a really, really, tiny, tiny, mind for that kind of thing. No wonder the Turks had such an easy time taking their land, culture, religion, and identity.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
what category are the following people
they seem like they could fit one of the black categories you mentioned above rather than being particularly reddish







2)in your opinion does Allah as per what the have a preference for people of a particular skin type as per the Qu'ran or other book?


3) Is God and Allah the same?
you had indicated that Allah was a man in your writings. How does that square with the black man being God? Do you mean black people are Allah?

4) If God and Allah are not the same is God the creator or is Allah the creator? I would find it strange to have God and Allah to be different because that doesn't seem to square with the Qu'ran. Most scholars would say Allah is the Arabic word for God and it means the same thing, the creator

thank you Dr.Muhammad

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
what category are the following people
they seem like they could fit one of the black categories you mentioned above rather than being particularly reddish







2)in your opinion does Allah as per what the have a preference for people of a particular skin type as per the Qu'ran or other book?


3) Is God and Allah the same?
you had indicated that Allah was a man in your writings. How does that square with the black man being God? Do you mean black people are Allah?

4) If God and Allah are not the same is God the creator or is Allah the creator? I would find it strange to have God and Allah to be different because that doesn't seem to square with the Qu'ran. Most scholars would say Allah is the Arabic word for God and it means the same thing, the creator

thank you Dr.Muhammad

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
^That is amazing wesleymuhammad. I had already thought the Arabs intellectually challenged: by virtue of their importing slaves, giving them weapons, and expecting them to be loyal soldiers (the Turkic Mamlukes).

Of course a person with normal intelligence would know that armed slaves don't stay slaves for very long.

But now the obsession with skin color: I lost count, what is that, a dozen shades of Black? WOW, you really need to have a really, really, tiny, tiny, mind for that kind of thing. No wonder the Turks had such an easy time taking their land, culture, religion, and identity.

---

Well, I would separate the two issues. The seeming 'obsession' with ranges and shades of colors is consistent with the nature of the Arabic language itself, which gives words a huge array of meanings all determined by context. I think this 'obsession' is more an obsession to be precise.

Regarding the small mindedness of the whole 'mamluk' project, please note that this was an Abbasid project, not an Umayyad project. Why does this matter? The Umayyad caliphs (most of them) were Arabs,the Abbasi were mostly hajin, mixed breeds, most with Persian or Byzantine mothers. How does that factor into your 'Arab IQ test'? Just curious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:


As to my opinion of them: I put the Assyrians, Persians, and Arabs, in the same bag. Low-class Negroes who were able to seize power during periods of power vacuum, and were totally ill-prepared to administer power (in the non-technical sense), or to maintain power. (Add Hebrews to the list).

Several years ago, I found out that tribal Arabs practiced clitorictomies, I have found nothing to improve my opinion of them since.

I should say that my interest in them is merely to establish the true racial nature of the ancient world, admiration plays no part. That is reserved for the Sumerians, Egyptians, and Nubians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:

Allah is God (the Creator).

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:

Allah is God (the Creator).

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http://ashahed.blogs.finalcall.com/2010/02/interview-with-dr-wesley-muhammad_04.html

Interview
wesley muhammad:

The term anthropomorphism is a Greek compound from the terms anthropos meaning “man” and morphe meaning “form” and it denotes, as I use it in the Truth of God and The Book of God, belief in God’s possession of a human form or body. This was the belief of the entire ancient world of color, at least those cultures for which we have documentary evidence of their theological/mythological thinking. In ancient Kemet (Egypt), ancient Sumer (Chaldea), ancient India and Arabia, in the ancient Near East generally God and the gods were divine men, with divine human forms. The God of Biblical and early Islamic tradition was/is anthropomorphic as well, as I demonstrate in the books.

This is important because, of course, we who believe in the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad do not accept that God is an immaterial, bodiless spirit. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us that God is a man, with a human form. Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike condemn this teaching as unbiblical and un-Islamic. I have demonstrated in the Truth of God and the Book of God that they are wrong and The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is right.


Thank you for your earlier replies.
I had read some essays you wrote on your belief that Allah (God) is a man.

1) Does this mean Allah (God) s a living person, a man who is living now in 2011?

Or is Allah (God) a person that once lived but is now dead?

2) In Christianity God is believed to have appeared in human form, Jesus Christ.
When you say that Allah (God) is a man do you mean some particular person?
Looking at Jesus Christ he was not a normal man. He had supernatural powers and performed miracles according to scripture.
When you say Allah (God) is a man do you say he (?) has supernatural powers that he has but no other men have?
But looking at Jesus once again he is considered divine but he doesn't get called Jesus the Creator. He made some fish appear but he didn't make a mountain appear.
There are billions of men on this planet. None of then has the power to create something out of thin air, not a penny or drop of wine or blade of grass. Then how could the creator who created the whole planet, animals, oceans, the sun and so on be a man. From my experience most men have trouble changing a flat tire or cooking an omelet.
Some might have called the Prophet Muhammad of the 7th century to have been divine or at least divinely inspired, Yet no one even claims he could snap his fingers and make a loaf of bread appear instantly.

Did Allah (God) create trees? If he was a man I don't get it men cannot create trees, sheep etc.

I could only see this making sense if Allah (God) is a supernatural being who does have the power to create mountains and rivers but also sometimes takes the form of a man.
Because men cannot do these acts of creations out of nothing.
So if Allah (God) sometimes takes the form of a man it makes sense.
But "taking the form of" does not mean "is a man"

To put it simply:

Man:
has the ability to make a house if he has access to wood, stone, etc. or some other raw materials

Allah (God):
has the ability to create planets and universes, can make raw materials like wood and stone from nothing


So how can Allah (God) be a man?
It seems the basic definitions don't correspond, one is much more powerful than the other

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Thank you for the questions Lioness. I must confess, though, I usually do not wear my "critical historian" hat and my "theologian" hat at the same time. In this particular forum, I really resist doing so. Your questions are very good ones and ones I would love to entertain at a more appropriate forum. If you are on Facebook, I encourage you to join The Allah Team Study Group. There you can post these types of theological questions to me and I will have no problem 'switching hats'. Or, if there is a theological forum that you would like to invite me to, I am open to the idea. Here, I hesitate. I do hope you understand. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
"He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." He then then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib." -Sahih Bukhari 1:3:63

I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be open him) pronouncing taslim on his right and on his left till I saw the whiteness of his cheek"
-Sahih Muslim 4:1208


More form the Hadith


Volume 1, Book 3, Number 63:
"Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." The an then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
---
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:
Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid:
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Volume 2, Book 17, Number 122:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Dinar:
My father said, "I heard Ibn 'Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib: And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows."
---
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141:
Narrated Anas bin Malik
The Prophet never raised his hands for any invocation except for that of Istisqa' and he used to raise them so much that the whiteness of his armpits became visible.
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Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:
He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet."

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:I guess someone didn't familiarize themselves with the classical Arabic or read Wesley Muhammad's article let along Tariq Berry's site.
The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect referred to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

---

Dr. Muhammad, dana here is saying that "white" is used in the historical Arabian context to represent a shade of skin like Beyonce's.

In regard to the specific quotes above referring to Prophet Muhammad as "white" do these particular quotes support Prophet Muhammad being of a shade of brown similar to Beyonce?




.
 

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Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Thank you for the questions Lioness. I must confess, though, I usually do not wear my "critical historian" hat and my "theologian" hat at the same time. In this particular forum, I really resist doing so. Your questions are very good ones and ones I would love to entertain at a more appropriate forum. If you are on Facebook, I encourage you to join The Allah Team Study Group. There you can post these types of theological questions to me and I will have no problem 'switching hats'. Or, if there is a theological forum that you would like to invite me to, I am open to the idea. Here, I hesitate. I do hope you understand.

---

what if one were to suggest that if the history and theology dovetail that is the way to a solid foundation, the complete circle, the sum being greater than the parts.

Christians, for example, will delve into science and biology "intelligent design" to counter evolutionists who they see as a threat to their beliefs. A similar thing with Islamic science,
if one has to change hats, it is perceived as weakness. But if you can wear a hat that can serve both purposes at once, then your head can't be touched because you don't have to remove it. [/QB]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
.

returning to the original topic here:

quote:

---

The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect referred to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

---

Dr. Muhammad, dana here is saying that "white" is used in the historical Arabian context to represent a shade of skin like Beyonce's.

In regard to the specific quotes above referring to Prophet Muhammad as "white" do these particular quotes support Prophet Muhammad being of a shade of brown similar to Beyonce?




.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Actually ,Dana's statement was more nuanced than that, and 100% correct. She correctly points out that, while in many dialects today 'white' refers to a complexion such as Beyonce's (or mine, even), at an earlier period - the period of Classical Arabic - the term white "simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin." This is correct.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
Actually ,Dana's statement was more nuanced than that, and 100% correct. She correctly points out that, while in many dialects today 'white' refers to a complexion such as Beyonce's (or mine, even), at an earlier period - the period of Classical Arabic - the term white "simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin." This is correct.

---

What is the word in classical Arabic for white?

Is this the same word used to describe things such as milk, bones, teeth, eggs, salt?

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quote:

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Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:
A. Morabia, writing in the Encyclopedia of Islam (s.v. Lawn), notes:

"One of the most striking manifestations of the symbolic connotations of colours among the Arabs, is the phenomenon of opposites (al-addad). We have seen, in studying the semantic value of certain adjectives of colour, that they were sometimes capable of embracing two diametrically opposite meanings. This phenomenon is particularly to be noted in the case of white and black...To signify wine, the Arabs used a number of euphemisms of the type 'the fair drink', 'the golden one', etc...Even today, in certain parts of the Orient and the Maghrib, in order to avoid pronouncing the word 'black'...opposites are used. In Morrocco, al-abyad sometimes denotes tar or coal."

---

Does the above apply to human skin color? Does it apply specifically to India and Pakistan?


The above seems to be from a book entitled:

Islam in India and Pakistan
By Annemarie Schimmel 1982
Harvard University

Is it also used in the Encyclopedia of Islam?

Anyway the full quotation, p 705

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpY3AAAAIAAJ&

One of the most striking manifestations of the symbolic connotations of colours among the Arabs, is the phenomenon of opposites (al-addad). We have seen, in studying the semantic value of certain adjectives of colour, that they were sometimes capable of embracing two diametrically opposite meanings. This phenomenon is particularly to be noted in the case of white and black which have common adjectives. To signify wine, the Arabs used a number of euphemisms of the type 'the fair drink', 'the golden one', etc.
It seems to have been the same reasoning that led them, superstitiously, to avoid the use of certain terms, and to evoke them by sufficiently eloquent imagery or by antiphrasis, in cases where the context rendered the sense unequivocal.
Even today, in certain parts of the Orient and the Maghrib, in order to avoid pronouncing the word 'black' (the accursed colour, the colour of Hell), opposites are used.


____________________________________


[further down page continues]

Aswad and sayyid present and etymological relationship that is loaded with meaning. The Arabs sensed that black was a dominant colour exercising over them a fascination that was mingled with fear. Black, darkness, the night, mystery all of these demand respect. The black stone of the Ka'ba is a pillar of spiritual influence. Black is the coat of "the unknown journey". It is also the joint symbol of vengeance and revolt (cf. the flag of the Abbasids). In the history of superstitions in the lands of Islam , black occupies a privileged position. By a kind of homeopathic magic it is used as a charm against "the evil eye". The black cat is endowed with enormous magic power: it is a creation of Satan, and anyone who eats it's flesh is immunized against illness: it's spleen, when applied to a woman stops menstruation. For the Muslims as for so many other people, the black crow exercises a baleful influence; meeting the bird is an unfavorable omen, since the bird is a herald of separation; is it not assumed that the Prophet said that the crow must be killed since it is wicked and perverse? The chains of Hell are black. A black cloud is a sign of divine wrath. Cain killed able with a black rock (kisas 8, 108, 121, 186-7, 193-194, 298)
Al-sawdd is the black bile source of sorrow and fear. "Black liver" is a term applied to a sworn enemy; "black heart" is a degenerate and vulgar personality "black news" denotes a calamity; "black life" is unfortunate; a "black face" belongs to discredited person; "black death" is reserved for that caused by strangulation.


-this sounds like the same type of connotations, many negative, that we never liked from the Western tradition.
(at the same time priests wear black and formal suits are black -go figure)
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Interesting to notice when we consider what "black" means, the nature it being a social construct, In the video I posted earlier
(ripped off from alurubenson)

thread title:

Black Schools in Holland

you have Dutch people calling Arabs of various backgrounds including Turkish people and others "black"
Yes, others did look more African but most in the video would never be referred to as "black" in America.
Yet in Holland these get called "black schools".
The very people, an example light brown Turkish people that many "black" people like to identify as mainly "white" -but in Holland apparently, due to their Islamic culture they are identified as "blacks".
Similarly Australian aborigines get called "blacks" sometimes n's also, yet they are quite genetically different from Africans.
Yet the stigma they feel is very real.
Then you might see some very dark Indian people in New York. But they don't get identified as "black"
The term has no fixed meaning.
 

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Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
How would these people by classified?


 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by wesleymuhammad (Member # 19245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Interesting to notice when we consider what "black" means, the nature it being a social construct, In the video I posted earlier
(ripped off from alurubenson)

thread title:

Black Schools in Holland

you have Dutch people calling Arabs of various backgrounds including Turkish people and others "black"
Yes, others did look more African but most in the video would never be referred to as "black" in America.
Yet in Holland these get called "black schools".
The very people, an example light brown Turkish people that many "black" people like to identify as mainly "white" -but in Holland apparently, due to their Islamic culture they are identified as "blacks".
Similarly Australian aborigines get called "blacks" sometimes n's also, yet they are quite genetically different from Africans.
Yet the stigma they feel is very real.
Then you might see some very dark Indian people in New York. But they don't get identified as "black"
The term has no fixed meaning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
wesleymuhammad

If I were to post a random pic. of a Arab and claim they are “Japheth Mulattos” based on appearance/complexion, you would be nodding.
But if I ask which of these 3 gentlemen is a Mulatto based on complexion, I get no answer from someone who is a expert on complexion terms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Interesting to notice when we consider what "black" means, the nature it being a social construct, In the video I posted earlier
(ripped off from alurubenson)

thread title:

Black Schools in Holland

you have Dutch people calling Arabs of various backgrounds including Turkish people and others "black"
Yes, others did look more African but most in the video would never be referred to as "black" in America.
Yet in Holland these get called "black schools".
The very people, an example light brown Turkish people that many "black" people like to identify as mainly "white" -but in Holland apparently, due to their Islamic culture they are identified as "blacks".
Similarly Australian aborigines get called "blacks" sometimes n's also, yet they are quite genetically different from Africans.
Yet the stigma they feel is very real.
Then you might see some very dark Indian people in New York. But they don't get identified as "black"
The term has no fixed meaning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
How would these people by classified?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleymuhammad:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^That is amazing wesleymuhammad. I had already thought the Arabs intellectually challenged: by virtue of their importing slaves, giving them weapons, and expecting them to be loyal soldiers (the Turkic Mamlukes).

Of course a person with normal intelligence would know that armed slaves don't stay slaves for very long.

But now the obsession with skin color: I lost count, what is that, a dozen shades of Black? WOW, you really need to have a really, really, tiny, tiny, mind for that kind of thing. No wonder the Turks had such an easy time taking their land, culture, religion, and identity.

---

Well, I would separate the two issues. The seeming 'obsession' with ranges and shades of colors is consistent with the nature of the Arabic language itself, which gives words a huge array of meanings all determined by context. I think this 'obsession' is more an obsession to be precise.

Regarding the small mindedness of the whole 'mamluk' project, please note that this was an Abbasid project, not an Umayyad project. Why does this matter? The Umayyad caliphs (most of them) were Arabs,the Abbasi were mostly hajin, mixed breeds, most with Persian or Byzantine mothers. How does that factor into your 'Arab IQ test'? Just curious.

---

You are correct about the Abbasids beginning those policies, I have no knowledge of their racial composition at that time, so I will take your word for it.

As to my opinion of them: I put the Assyrians, Persians, and Arabs, in the same bag. Low-class Negroes who were able to seize power during periods of power vacuum, and were totally ill-prepared to administer power (in the non-technical sense), or to maintain power. (Add Hebrews to the list).

Several years ago, I found out that tribal Arabs practiced clitorictomies, I have found nothing to improve my opinion of them since.

I should say that my interest in them is merely to establish the true racial nature of the ancient world, admiration plays no part. That is reserved for the Sumerians, Egyptians, and Nubians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
.

returning to the original topic here:






.

---

Ummmm, your snakiness.... couldn't you have chosen a more true to life photo of Beyonce with makeup on. LOL! I was wondering who this was. I had to stare at her for some seconds.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
And that's the confounded thing about "race" which is often subject to arbitrary definition--as in the U.S.

If Saleh were U.S. born but of a Yemeni family that migrated to the U.S.[just like the Christian Lebanese: Ralph Nader, Helen Thomas, etc.] 3 or 4 generations back he could easily be a member of the so-called "Black Caucus". Why? Because his phenotype does evidently contain elements of African DNA. Well, how so? The hair and facial structure. In Dakar, Senegal, Saleh would get unsolicited greetings from Mauritanians.

---

Whether or not there are arbitrary definitions about what black is in Europe or America today - one thing that isn't confounding is the fact that people that looked like this man or an African American that looks like him would have been called by early Arabs - "white mixed with red" or simply red and that was said IN THEIR WORDS to "resemble as slave", and a non-Arab and "one of the seven rare things of this world.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Clitorectomy, as anybody who knows something about Africa KNOWS is a "traditional" "tribal" BLACK African practice which dates back far back to ancient Egypt. That is why these Africans further east IN ARABIA retained that practice and transferred it to the Muslims of all origins. As Diop and Asante have informed, African Gods " directed" this rite of passage as with the related rite of circumcision. They have to do with the conception of spiritual duality with relationship to humanness, marriage and fertility - something which doesn't appear to have deep roots in the West.

Of course the practice itself has evolved or devolved however you want to look at it and been reinterpreted according to later beliefs and edicts.

In my view, both practices clitorectomy AND circumcision can be done away with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Clitorectomy, as anybody who knows something about Africa KNOWS is a "traditional" "tribal" BLACK African practice which dates back far back to ancient Egypt. That is why these Africans further east IN ARABIA retained that practice and transferred it to the Muslims of all origins. As Diop and Asante have informed, African Gods " directed" this rite of passage as with the related rite of circumcision. They have to do with the conception of spiritual duality with relationship to humanness, marriage and fertility - something which doesn't appear to have deep roots in the West.

Of course the practice itself has evolved or devolved however you want to look at it and been reinterpreted according to later beliefs and edicts.

In my view, both practices clitorectomy AND circumcision can be done away with.

---

Circumcision (removal of the foreskin) is a "rite of passage" firmly rooted in sound hygienic policy.

Clitorectomy (removal of the clitoris) and infibulation, (scarring and sealing of the vagina) are NOT rites of passage. They are control policies, and acts of violence against women. Done by weak men, of minimal intelligence, who are afraid of female sexuality.

The fact that it is ritualized, does not change the basis fact that it is a criminal enterprise intended to benefit men and victimize women - making them little more than penile receptacles and birth canals.

Seeing as how it renders the female incapable of providing a satisfying sexual experience, for either partner, I can only assume that these men turn elsewhere for such fulfillment.

I have seen it referred to as pharaonic circumcision, but I know of no such Egyptian policy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
What the H--- does that have to do with the fact that African-affiliated kinky haired TAR COLORED people predominated in Arabia with Nubian-looking kinky haired ones before 600 years ago, while scholars like Bernard Lewis put paintings of Central Asian people TURKOMAN in his books about "Arabs", NITWIT? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[QB]

From Marib, Yemen, A votive statue




gravestone of a young woman named Aban, of the clan of Mahdhar, second century AD, Qataban




Sabaean From Yemen Woman with braided hair.



Coin, tetradrachm (16.8g), Saba, South Arabia, c. 4th-3rd century BC, Sear -, Munro-Hay Type 1.0.4, Huth 1.




Male head of artist Sabaean, Saba, Kingdom, Carved, Bust,




Calcite stela, South Arabia, 1st century BC. The inscriptionL Aban of the tribe of Mahdhar




Sabean Alabaster Stele Yemen, South Arabia.Ca. 3rd cent. B.C. - 2nd cent. A.D.16-3/4"H.Cream and red mottled alabaster plank stele or grave marker having a relief male head at top bearing almond shaped, recessed eyes, long, thin nose and small, pursed lips. Broken in two parts, the lower bears two lines of Sabaean inscription.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Clitorectomy, as anybody who knows something about Africa KNOWS is a "traditional" "tribal" BLACK African practice which dates back far back to ancient Egypt. That is why these Africans further east IN ARABIA retained that practice and transferred it to the Muslims of all origins. As Diop and Asante have informed, African Gods " directed" this rite of passage as with the related rite of circumcision. They have to do with the conception of spiritual duality with relationship to humanness, marriage and fertility - something which doesn't appear to have deep roots in the West.

Of course the practice itself has evolved or devolved however you want to look at it and been reinterpreted according to later beliefs and edicts.

In my view, both practices clitorectomy AND circumcision can be done away with.

---

Circumcision (removal of the foreskin) is a "rite of passage" firmly rooted in sound hygienic policy.

Clitorectomy (removal of the clitoris) and infibulation, (scarring and sealing of the vagina) are NOT rites of passage. They are control policies, and acts of violence against women. Done by weak men, of minimal intelligence, who are afraid of female sexuality.

The fact that it is ritualized, does not change the basis fact that it is a criminal enterprise intended to benefit men and victimize women - making them little more than penile receptacles and birth canals.

Seeing as how it renders the female incapable of providing a satisfying sexual experience, for either partner, I can only assume that these men turn elsewhere for such fulfillment.

I have seen it referred to as pharaonic circumcision, but I know of no such Egyptian policy.

---

Mike thank you for correcting this lackey, dana

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^IDIOT!


Arabia Petraea

Arabia Petraea, also called Provincia Arabia or simply Arabia, was a frontier province of the Roman Empire beginning in the 2nd century; it consisted of the former Nabataean kingdom in modern Jordan, southern modern Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and northwestern Saudi Arabia. Its capital was Petra. It was bordered on the north by Syria, on the west by Iudaea and Aegyptus.

It was annexed by Trajan, like many other eastern frontier provinces of the Roman Empire, but held onto, unlike Armenia, Mesopotamia and Assyria, well after Trajan's rule -its desert frontier being called the Limes Arabicus. It produced no usurpers and no emperors (Philippus, though Arab, was from Shahbā, a Syrian city added to the province of Arabia at a point between 193 and 225—Philippus was born around 204). As a frontier province, it included a desert populated by the nomadic Saraceni, and bordering the Parthian hinterland.

---

Idiot,
The Sabaean people were South Arabian people
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^IDIOT!

THIS is a Sabaean!


 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

They are all Sabaean
Mike this is not a negroid.
Look at his features moron, furthermore look at other Sabaean art.
Are you still promoting curly hair = black?

That's retard anthropology. Look at those thin ass lips, big straight nose. True some Africans have this but it is rare.

Mike did you notice the man is wearing a hat some sort of head gear. This would be obvious to anyone but a moron due to the fact that there is a horizontal line going across the forehead, the band of the head piece.

Doesn't matter if it was his real hair



you never learn
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

No I'am afraid THEY'RE NOT ALL SABAEANS, SILLY. Especially the third one. WHY do you hate the black Africans that lived outside of Africa so much. I thought you were one of them.


Marcus an Amhara adopted by uour people Lyin-ss in Sweden.


"They are all Sabaean" (said the racist Lyin-ss)
"Mike this is not a negroid." (Here she shows her true colors or color that is).
Look at his features moron, furthermore look at other Sabaean art.
Are you still promoting curly hair = black? (Boy you really must be from Sweden. How's the weather up there.)

That's retard anthropology. Look at those thin ass lips, big straight nose. True some Africans have this but it is rare. (Like I said Sweden this spells Sweden through and through).

"Mike did you notice the man is wearing a hat some sort of head gear." Ummm - OK whatever you say Svenska.

"This would be obvious to anyone but a moron due to the fact that there is a horizontal line going across the forehead, the band of the head piece." (That was a joke I guess. Some people make funny jokes when they can't get their across. Like I'm dooin now i guess. Notice this girl just called someone else a moron.) LOL! ).




Lyin__sses never learn

---

Lyinass this is not comedy 101 although it sometimes -especially when your here - may appear that way.

Why not put the living Sabaeas people still speaking the Himyaritic Sabaean dialects in your postings, Or do you prefer to continue Lying?
Both of the sculptures of the TWO DIFFERENT Sabaean and Qataban i.e. black Banu Qudha men look exactly like the Tigrai, Amhara and Tiginya men of today. The one you posted looks very much like Haile Selassie as a young man, silly.

The people that still speak ancient Sabaean-related dialects - a people known as "the Blacks" and sometimes as the "woolly haired Indi" who lived in south Arabia and Nubia, along the blue nile and in the Horn, Hadramaut amd Yemen AREe ancestral to many Ethiopian Beja and Somali people. Although its possible some like the Maddhij came from peoples like the Madjay originally.

The tribes of Himyar and Kahlan or children of Saba still living on BOTH sides of the Eritraean Sea or Red Sea include today the Hadharme or Hadareb or Hadrami anciently in Greek texts as the Adramitae of Saba, Mahra, or Mahara of the Quda'a, Baliyy, Beli or Belaw, Makhir, the Yahar of the yafi, Wubar or Wabra, Thaur or Suwar and the closely related Afar/ Afariyyeh of Kahlan, Rahawiyyin or Rahawayn of the Madhij, Rahanwayn Mahara and Yahar and Wabar are still in Somalia ( of teh ancient tribe of Bin Samal. I've already posted photos of teh modern Madhij tribes who came from Kahlan.

The Madhij clans of Hawt, Zubayd and Murad and of course the Dawasir all from Kahlan all described anciently as black as their Sabaean ancestors were.


The people you posted look like the Ebna or Abna (Persians) the descendants of the Sabaeans fought against. Nobody cares but you and your Euronut compatriots about "Negroid" traits since they are no less African than those of the straight narrow nosed desert-evolved Afar,true Arabs, Masai and Turkana and often blue black Rendili and Samburu - dimwit ( and racist)!


BTW - What tribe are the Iranian-looking people you posted from.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
What the H--- does that have to do with the fact that African-affiliated kinky haired TAR COLORED people predominated in Arabia with Nubian-looking kinky haired ones before 600 years ago, while scholars like Bernard Lewis put paintings of Central Asian people TURKOMAN in his books about "Arabs", NITWIT?

---

where's your proof that kinky hair was predominant in 6th century Arabia? (or other AD centuries?)

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:


From Marib, Yemen, A votive statue


South ARabian man



NUBIAN man





Tigrai woman (or Te Gerrah)

---

---

Those still speaking Sabean dialects Mahra Shahara and Qarra the black and true ARabs still hold they came from Africa.

BTW -Thank you for posting beautiful Sabaean (African Arabs) alabasters. The same Sabaeans that still live in Ethiopia under their same names who made similar sculptures. Do we have to go through the picture spamming thing again. Just because the Sabeans a people of the area of Yemen Meroe and the blue Nile and Arabia didn't represent by Nok figurines doesn't mean than they weren't related to Axumites and other black Africans.

That is how they represented themselves both in Arabia AND IN AXUM. if you don't like it than next life be born in Ethiopia.

PS - don't forget to sort out the Greek Sabaic minted in Arabia from the real Sabaean ones next time.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

Tigrai Ethiopian woman


Sabaean Queen
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
What the H--- does that have to do with the fact that African-affiliated kinky haired TAR COLORED people predominated in Arabia with Nubian-looking kinky haired ones before 600 years ago, while scholars like Bernard Lewis put paintings of Central Asian people TURKOMAN in his books about "Arabs", NITWIT?

---

where's your proof that kinky hair was predominant in 6th century Arabia? (or other AD centuries?)

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:


From Marib, Yemen, A votive statue

---

---

Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:



Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"












(dana you can't be serious)
 

---

Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
dana marniche


The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

Lol! try again. I have been to Saudi Arabia most people are rather swarthy but some are pale especially some of the Women. It's only logical to assume that the term White would refer to lightest phenotype extant, no? And they do have "White" people. Observe.









And then you claim that "White" referred to shinny unblemished Black skin! You're too funny!
 

---

Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
.

returning to the original topic here:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
"He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." He then then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib." -Sahih Bukhari 1:3:63

I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be open him) pronouncing taslim on his right and on his left till I saw the whiteness of his cheek"
-Sahih Muslim 4:1208


More form the Hadith


Volume 1, Book 3, Number 63:
"Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." The an then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
---
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:
Narrated Isma'il bin Abi Khalid:
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Volume 2, Book 17, Number 122:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Dinar:
My father said, "I heard Ibn 'Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib: And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows."
---
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141:
Narrated Anas bin Malik
The Prophet never raised his hands for any invocation except for that of Istisqa' and he used to raise them so much that the whiteness of his armpits became visible.
---
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:
He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:I guess someone didn't familiarize themselves with the classical Arabic or read Wesley Muhammad's article let along Tariq Berry's site.
The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect referred to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

---

Dr. Muhammad, dana here is saying that "white" is used in the historical Arabian context to represent a shade of skin like Beyonce's.

In regard to the specific quotes above referring to Prophet Muhammad as "white" do these particular quotes support Prophet Muhammad being of a shade of brown similar to Beyonce?




.

---

And my reply would be if we know that they are people who were lighter than Beyonce's caramel color wouldn't it be logical for the term White to apply to them? What would they call the lightest people then, Indigo?? Marniche seems to be suffereing from the delusion that somehwere back bfore the modern era, everyone was Black. It's the Afrocentric foolishnes you hear over and over again with regard to the original Moors/North Africans, Greeks, Persians, Sumerians etc. Surely someone needs to account for the drastic phenotyipcal change in recent times, from Morocco to the Levant all the way to Northern India. There most have been a massive invasion of light skin people in these areas about 500 years or so ago that someone forgot to write in the history books. When I was in Saudi Arabia I was told that many of the darker skin people are mixed with Sudanese and Ethiopians. Meaning darker Arabians are more of a recent phenomena than the other way around.


 

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Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
 
What if i told you that Hazrat Bilal al Habishi was really not a slave.

What if i told you according to a Original version of the Quran found in Yemen, that Hazrt Bilal Al Habishi was really the governor of Mecca.

His real name was Belay Gebremedhin and according to pre-Islamic traditions Habishi were never slaves in Arabia but rulers,mercenaries,teachers,physicians,etc.

What if i told you that Bilal,Farsi,and Jabr who are ethiopian,Persian,and Ethiopian were actually the good friends of Muhammed. They were respectfully well versed in christianity, and Zorastrian.

What if i told you that Hanif was pre-Islamic and pre Muhammad would you think that Islam was an offshot of Hanifism.
 

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Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
 
Arabs would never claim Muhammed to be Black like an African than that would imply that he is a slave abid in there racist bigotry custom that began with islam.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:



Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"




(dana you can't be serious)

---

Very funny Svenska. Nobodies laughing though, but you though.




Yup - I'm quite serious.


Saudi singer - Waed .


Somali woman - I guess they do look alike.

Sabaeans were the ancestors of the Arabs and many Africans especially the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Blue Nile. That is why Strabo refers to the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Abyssinians as Arabians". Both the south Arabians and the inhabitants of inhabitants of Abyssinia are called Indi by the Greeks.

How did all of the Sabaean-speakers end up looking like black Africans instead of Syrians. Why don't the people you posted speak the Himyaritic dialects like the Mahra and other near black in Arabia.

You might be laughing but the jokes on you.

Next time don't take my photo of an Arabians out.


Southeast pure Arabian man
 

---

Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
As some might have guessed, this thread really isn't about whether or not Muhammad was Black or White. As a non-religious person (in the conventional sense), it really doesn't matter.

My interest was piqued years ago, when the conflicts between northern Muslims and southern Christians in Nigeria began.

These people were killing each other, and the Muslims were demanding partition into a separate country of their own.

And I found that very strange, that Blacks would kill other Blacks, in the name of a religion that denigrated Blacks, and was openly hostile to Blacks.

My real hope is that wesleymuhammad can explain that to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
dana marniche


The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

Lol! try again. I have been to Saudi Arabia most people are rather swarthy but some are pale especially some of the Women. It's only logical to assume that the term White would refer to lightest phenotype extant, no? And they do have "White" people. Observe.


And then you claim that "White" referred to shinny unblemished Black skin! You're too funny!

---

Please don't put words in my mouth. Some Arab-speaking Iranian called Masud al Taftazaani said that. It is Ibn mandhur's direct quote from him some several hundred years ago. lol!

BTW- the ancient Hebrews used the word "white" in the same way for someone whose skin was luminous, not someone whose skin was pale, or fair and reddish. Sorry for that undeniable fact brought to you by David Goldenberg in The Curse of Ham, 2003, p. 93.
.


Its not about logic and what modern inhabitants of Arabia look like. It is about what the early Arabic speakers said. At that time fair skinned was associated with slavery. PERIOD! I think its funny two how times have changed to the exact opposite and now its the blacks that are considered slaves. So we can all laugh together.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
dana marniche


The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

Lol! try again. I have been to Saudi Arabia most people are rather swarthy but some are pale especially some of the Women. It's only logical to assume that the term White would refer to lightest phenotype extant, no? And they do have "White" people. Observe.

---

Do you know how King Sa'ud got his name. That's a really funny one.




"The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abyad] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abya;] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (ahmar)… And the Arabs attribute fair-skin to the slaves." Ibn Manzur Lisaan al Arab 14th century
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"







(dana you can't be serious)

---

From Lisaan al Arab: "Arab Lessons"
The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abya] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abya] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (ahmar)… And the Arabs attribute fair skin TO THE SLAVES. Ibn Mandur 14th century

serious as a mugshot.
 

---

Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:



Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"




(dana you can't be serious)

---

Very funny Svenska. Nobodies laughing though, but you though.




Yup - I'm quite serious.


Saudi singer - Waed .


Somali woman - I guess they do look alike.

Sabaeans were the ancestors of the Arabs and many Africans especially the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Blue Nile. That is why Strabo refers to the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Abyssinians as Arabians". Both the south Arabians and the inhabitants of inhabitants of Abyssinia are called Indi by the Greeks.

How did all of the Sabaean-speakers end up looking like black Africans instead of Syrians. Why don't the people you posted speak the Himyaritic dialects like the Mahra and other near black in Arabia.

You might be laughing but the jokes on you.

Next time don't take my photo of an Arabians out.


Southeast pure Arabian man

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quote:

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Arabs would never claim Muhammed to be Black like an African than that would imply that he is a slave abid in there racist bigotry custom that began with islam.

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True - Middle Eastern peoples do not like to call anybody black because black and abid have come to mean the same thing just as white or ahmar and slave was once the same thing.

That custom had nothing to do with Islam it had to do with the people who took over Islam and began to make pictures of themselves as descendants of the prophet. They were part of the uprising against the Arabs who were like the Africans in appearance and thus anything black was held in contempt. They dominated the Abbasid period.

The bulk of the paintings of so-called "Arabs" of the 13th -16th century are Central Asian looking people who took control of Iran, Syria, Turkey and even India.



This is a painting supposedly of the Arabian Banu Nadir of Medina. Of course the real Banu Nadir didn't look Central Asian. Medina was part of the harra where as Jahiz said the people were the color of lava.

According to certain Arab sources, the Banu Nadir and the Banu Qurayza, the major Jewish tribes in Medina, were descendants of the Banu Judham or Gudham a clan claiming descent from the Azd clan of Kahlan, son of Saba.

The irony is that these people who obviously look exactly like the modern peoples of Mongolia and the Turkmenistan are the people who most commonly appear in paintings throughout early Iran and Turkey. They are no doubt what a lot of so-called "Arab" historians looked like for several centuries, and these people had little very little in common with the real Arabs or Arabs from Arabia, culturally or biologically.
 

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Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Arabs would never claim Muhammed to be Black like an African than that would imply that he is a slave abid in there racist bigotry custom that began with islam.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:


[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/30j3bxd.jpg[/

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How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"




(dana you can't be serious)

---

Yup - I'm quite serious.


Saudi singer - Waed .


Somali woman - I guess they do look alike.

Sabaeans were the ancestors of the Arabs and many Africans especially the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Blue Nile. That is why Strabo refers to the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Abyssinians as Arabians". Both the south Arabians and the inhabitants of inhabitants of Abyssinia are called Indi by the Greeks.

How did all of the Sabaean-speakers end up looking like black Africans instead of Syrians. Why don't the people you posted speak the Himyaritic dialects like the Mahra and other near black in Arabia.

You might be laughing but the jokes on you.

Next time don't take my photo of an Arabians out.


Southeast pure Arabian man

---

There are black Arabs, however I think one has to be very careful because of the amount of mixing that has gone on in that area. What is to say the black arabs are not decedents of the Axumite kingdom that ruled over that region. Or whats to say its not someone who is a result of mixing between decedents of axumites and arabs. Just playing devils advocate here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:



Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"




(dana you can't be serious)

---

Very funny Svenska. Nobodies laughing though, but you though.




Yup - I'm quite serious.


Saudi singer - Waed .


Somali woman - I guess they do look alike.

Sabaeans were the ancestors of the Arabs and many Africans especially the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Blue Nile. That is why Strabo refers to the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Abyssinians as Arabians". Both the south Arabians and the inhabitants of inhabitants of Abyssinia are called Indi by the Greeks.

How did all of the Sabaean-speakers end up looking like black Africans instead of Syrians. Why don't the people you posted speak the Himyaritic dialects like the Mahra and other near black in Arabia.

You might be laughing but the jokes on you.

Next time don't take my photo of an Arabians out.


Southeast pure Arabian man

---

There are black Arabs, however I think one has to be very careful because of the amount of mixing that has gone on in that area. What is to say the black arabs are not decedents of the Axumite kingdom that ruled over that region. Or whats to say its not someone who is a result of mixing between decedents of axumites and arabs. Just playing devils advocate here.

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From what i understand blacks of African descent have special names Akhdam. The Arab people I post come from tribes like the Shariqiya man. And the celebrity singer Waed comes from a noble and rich Arab man who was in charge of broadcasting there.

I had heard as well that a lot of the Habesh had been kicked out of Arabia by the Persians.

We also have to be careful about the posting of pictures of fair-skinned peoples when we know Dhahabi,Ibn Manzur and Jahiz all said fair skin was associated with slave descent. And an even greater number said the Arabs called themselves the blacks.

An 1844 gazeteer mentions that the inhabitants “of Mecca are, with the exception of a few Hedjaz Bedouin are foreigners, either foreigners or the offspring of foreigners…” the same thing is said for Jiddah. While the Chinese manuscript from the 14th centuy of Ma Huang says the peoples of Mecca and the Hijaz were of a deep purple color.

Sometimes common sense has to reign over long-held beliefs. Posting people that the early Arabs said resembled slaves (Syrians, Persians, Byzantines, etc.) is a way of excaping what has happened in the last 500 years.

The Chinese Islamic texts also say the Arabs were black skinned and dark brown in color.

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akhdam is the plural of the word khadim and khadim means servant. That is the name applied to the blacks in Yemen who are the descendants of the Axumite kingdom that ruled there. Again, there are native blacks there. I believe that is what those people in Bahrain and those other islands in the persian gulf are. I am not disagreeing with you by any means, its just we need to be very specific and provide more than just pictures if we are going to educate each other here. Thats all I was getting at
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:



Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"




(dana you can't be serious)

---

Very funny Svenska. Nobodies laughing though, but you though.




Yup - I'm quite serious.


Saudi singer - Waed .


Somali woman - I guess they do look alike.

Sabaeans were the ancestors of the Arabs and many Africans especially the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Blue Nile. That is why Strabo refers to the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Abyssinians as Arabians". Both the south Arabians and the inhabitants of inhabitants of Abyssinia are called Indi by the Greeks.

How did all of the Sabaean-speakers end up looking like black Africans instead of Syrians. Why don't the people you posted speak the Himyaritic dialects like the Mahra and other near black in Arabia.

You might be laughing but the jokes on you.

Next time don't take my photo of an Arabians out.


Southeast pure Arabian man

---

There are black Arabs, however I think one has to be very careful because of the amount of mixing that has gone on in that area. What is to say the black arabs are not decedents of the Axumite kingdom that ruled over that region. Or whats to say its not someone who is a result of mixing between decedents of axumites and arabs. Just playing devils advocate here.

---

From what i understand blacks of African descent have special names Akhdam. The Arab people I post come from tribes like the Shariqiya man. And the celebrity singer Waed comes from a noble and rich Arab man who was in charge of broadcasting there.

I had heard as well that a lot of the Habesh had been kicked out of Arabia by the Persians.

We also have to be careful about the posting of pictures of fair-skinned peoples when we know Dhahabi,Ibn Manzur and Jahiz all said fair skin was associated with slave descent. And an even greater number said the Arabs called themselves the blacks.

An 1844 gazeteer mentions that the inhabitants “of Mecca are, with the exception of a few Hedjaz Bedouin are foreigners, either foreigners or the offspring of foreigners…” the same thing is said for Jiddah. While the Chinese manuscript from the 14th centuy of Ma Huang says the peoples of Mecca and the Hijaz were of a deep purple color.

Sometimes common sense has to reign over long-held beliefs. Posting people that the early Arabs said resembled slaves (Syrians, Persians, Byzantines, etc.) is a way of excaping what has happened in the last 500 years.

The Chinese Islamic texts also say the Arabs were black skinned and dark brown in color.

---

akhdam is the plural of the word khadim and khadim means servant. That is the name applied to the blacks in Yemen who are the descendants of the Axumite kingdom that ruled there. Again, there are native blacks there. I believe that is what those people in Bahrain and those other islands in the persian gulf are. I am not disagreeing with you by any means, its just we need to be very specific and provide more than just pictures if we are going to educate each other here. Thats all I was getting at

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:



Guardian of the Ark in Axum, Ethiopia

I can post hefty Sabaean related African people too. What will that prove.

Lyin_sses never learn.

---

How about posting some Sabaeans of Yemen instead of what you call "Sabaean related Africans"




(dana you can't be serious)

---

Very funny Svenska. Nobodies laughing though, but you though.




Yup - I'm quite serious.


Saudi singer - Waed .


Somali woman - I guess they do look alike.

Sabaeans were the ancestors of the Arabs and many Africans especially the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Blue Nile. That is why Strabo refers to the Sabaeans of Meroe and the Abyssinians as Arabians". Both the south Arabians and the inhabitants of inhabitants of Abyssinia are called Indi by the Greeks.

How did all of the Sabaean-speakers end up looking like black Africans instead of Syrians. Why don't the people you posted speak the Himyaritic dialects like the Mahra and other near black in Arabia.

You might be laughing but the jokes on you.

Next time don't take my photo of an Arabians out.


Southeast pure Arabian man

---

There are black Arabs, however I think one has to be very careful because of the amount of mixing that has gone on in that area. What is to say the black arabs are not decedents of the Axumite kingdom that ruled over that region. Or whats to say its not someone who is a result of mixing between decedents of axumites and arabs. Just playing devils advocate here.

---

From what i understand blacks of African descent have special names Akhdam. The Arab people I post come from tribes like the Shariqiya man. And the celebrity singer Waed comes from a noble and rich Arab man who was in charge of broadcasting there.

I had heard as well that a lot of the Habesh had been kicked out of Arabia by the Persians.

We also have to be careful about the posting of pictures of fair-skinned peoples when we know Dhahabi,Ibn Manzur and Jahiz all said fair skin was associated with slave descent. And an even greater number said the Arabs called themselves the blacks.

An 1844 gazeteer mentions that the inhabitants “of Mecca are, with the exception of a few Hedjaz Bedouin are foreigners, either foreigners or the offspring of foreigners…” the same thing is said for Jiddah. While the Chinese manuscript from the 14th centuy of Ma Huang says the peoples of Mecca and the Hijaz were of a deep purple color.

Sometimes common sense has to reign over long-held beliefs. Posting people that the early Arabs said resembled slaves (Syrians, Persians, Byzantines, etc.) is a way of excaping what has happened in the last 500 years.

The Chinese Islamic texts also say the Arabs were black skinned and dark brown in color.

---

akhdam is the plural of the word khadim and khadim means servant. That is the name applied to the blacks in Yemen who are the descendants of the Axumite kingdom that ruled there. Again, there are native blacks there. I believe that is what those people in Bahrain and those other islands in the persian gulf are. I am not disagreeing with you by any means, its just we need to be very specific and provide more than just pictures if we are going to educate each other here. Thats all I was getting at

---

it is true that Akhdam is the word applied to the said descendants of Abyssinians. The word from what i understand is applied to all blacks that were brought into south Arabia as slaves. Khadim had the significance of "old" or "ancient" in classical Arabic as well. That may be how the word originally evolved from a term for the Abyssinians to slaves in general from Africa. Many of teh people that are called Akhdam don't look Abyssinian but more like Central East Africans.

Mahra is a word now generally applied to African looking peoples in southeast Arabia. Nevertheless, Mahra or Mahara was anciently the name of a tribe from the Himyarites named Bani Quda'a, Qata'a or Qataban. The Mahayra/Mahra as a tribe have always occupied both sides of the Red Sea, and have nothing to do with the Abyssinian invasion.

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Do not believe what these liars say. a Khadim gets paid for his service a 3bid (slave) doesn't. So it wouldn't make sense to call these blacks who were "supposedly" brought in as slaves akhdam, right? The fact these people ruled over that area is well documented. Read Surat al fil in the Quran, thats what it is talkign about. Also do a search on google for a article by the british museum on the axumite kingdom in Arabia. They have a great PDF you can download on it. I used to have it but I reformatted my computer recently so I no longer have it but i definitely got it from the british museum's website. They say they are not sure how far that kingdom's reach was. Some say just where president say saudi is all the way to yemen and over to oman and even bahrain. Some say as far north as Iraq and from one cost (east to west) to the other. I am not sure about the size but the descendents still look habashi.

As for what khadim meant in classical arabic. I am muslim, I studied arabic (fusa7) which is classical arabic for a VERY long time. You are confusing two words. Khadim (servent) with Qadim (old or ancient). One is spelled with the arabic letter kha (khadim) and the other is spelled with the arabic letter Qaf (Qadim). the kh you would make sort of like when you do a deep spit from the back of your throat. Qaf would be like the sound some birds make caw, caw, caw but with a Q. (not sure how that must sound with you picturing that via the internet lol).

As for the tribe your talking about, I don't know much about those people, so I wont speak on it. I will look into the information you provided, much appreciated.
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
dana marniche


The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

Lol! try again. I have been to Saudi Arabia most people are rather swarthy but some are pale especially some of the Women. It's only logical to assume that the term White would refer to lightest phenotype extant, no? And they do have "White" people. Observe.


And then you claim that "White" referred to shinny unblemished Black skin! You're too funny!

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Please don't put words in my mouth. Some Arab-speaking Iranian called Masud al Taftazaani said that. It is Ibn mandhur's direct quote from him some several hundred years ago. lol!

BTW- the ancient Hebrews used the word "white" in the same way for someone whose skin was luminous, not someone whose skin was pale, or fair and reddish. Sorry for that undeniable fact brought to you by David Goldenberg in The Curse of Ham, 2003, p. 93.
.


Its not about logic and what modern inhabitants of Arabia look like. It is about what the early Arabic speakers said. At that time fair skinned was associated with slavery. PERIOD! I think its funny two how times have changed to the exact opposite and now its the blacks that are considered slaves. So we can all laugh together.

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Likely our friend Masud al Taftazaani was waxing poetic. Certianly he would have been aware of many pale White people in Iran. You may be right about the hebrews, as David was refered to as ruddy.
And the Zanj revolt which allegedely resulted in Black rule in certain areas of Arabia was short lived. Clearly people were light skinned before and after as per the words of Al Jahiz..

"We have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs (Negroes) revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood." Apparently Al Jahiz had a clear sense of the original Arabians being a distinct and lighter race ("white"). Or do you think they were simply overbearingly luminous?? In any case when we look at depictions of Arabs from midieval times its usually the light skinned types that predominate.











I seriously doubt that Mohammad was Black, not that there would be anything wrong if he was..
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Nordic Arabs by Karl Earlson

There appears to have been a blond, racially Nordic element, amongst the leadership of the Arabic peoples, from the very earliest times. Thus, as the distinguished Harvard anthropologist Carleton S. Coon has noted, when referring to the population of the Yemen plateau:

"The Nordic-looking people are usually confined to the social stratum from which civil officers and religious men are drawn, and it is more than a coincidence that the acknowledged descendants of the Prophet are lighter-skinned and show greater evidence of blondism than the rest of the population. There may perhaps have been a Nordic strain associated with the holy families who entered this region from the Hejaz in early post-Islamic times." [Coon (1939) 408-409.]

Professor C. S. Coon has also stated, that amongst the people of Morocco:

"The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance; others of them look like Mekkan aristocrats in Arabia." [Coon (1939) 484.]

The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned; a freedman, by the name of Umar, described the Prophet thus:

"his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red". [Guillaume (1987) 726.]

Most authorities on the issue appear to agree that Muhammad was brunet, but Henric von Schwerin has stated that:

"Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair." [von Schwerin (1960) 27.]

During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet's beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as "light," "reddish," or "fair," but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as "blonde." [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis (1990) 36; Vollers (1910) 91.] Subsequently, she has become known to the Islamic peoples as "Aisha the Blonde." [Günther (1930) 168.]

Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance — possibly in imitation and pursuance of a fair-haired, Nordic ideal. [Günther (1930) 163.]

Caliph Ali (AD 656-661), a first cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was also renowned for his blond hair, as were his descendants, who founded the Shi'ite branch of Islam. [Grant (1981) 84-85; Lewis (1990) 36.] However, it was bitterly resented by some Muslims, that the physical features which characterised a true descendant of Muhammad, were steadily being lost, due to admixture with darker races. Thus, as the Syrian poet Abu'l-Ala (AD 973-1057), remarked in a letter:

"We often see a man of mark who has in his house women of high degree setting above them a girl in a striped gown purchased for a few coins and so we may see a man whose grandfather on the father's side is a fair-haired descendant of Ali while his maternal grandfather is a black idolator." [Lewis (1990) 89.]

It would also appear that many of the numerous and diverse rulers of Moorish Spain, were racially Nordic; the Spanish historian Enrique Sordo, informs us that:

"Most of the caliphs were fair or ginger-haired with blue eyes, which seems to show a preponderance of Berber or Germanic blood. As they were extremely proud of their origin, some of them dyed their hair black, as if to affirm their Arab descent." [Sordo (1962) 24.]

This trend towards blondism began with the very first independent Muslim ruler of the Iberian Peninsula. Abd al-Rahman I (AD 756-788), the founder of the Cordoban Emirate, was a Syrian from the Damascus region, and belonged to the imperial Umayyad family: he was a grandson of Caliph Hisham (AD 724-743). His mother was a Berber slave-girl, and his father was the Syrio-Arab Umayyad, Muawiya. He is said to have been a "colossal red-haired man". [Grant (1981) 90; Sordo (1962) 23.]

In 1232, Muhammad b. Yusuf b. Nasr from Banu 'l-Ahmar, made himself the Sultan of the kingdom of Granada, a feat which he achieved by consolidating several Muslim petty kingdoms in southern Spain. Muhammad I was known as Ibn al Ahmar (son of the red), because of his red hair; he was the founder of the Nasrid dynasty, and ruled from 1232 to 1273. [Sordo (1962) 120; Vollers (1910) 87.]

This trait appears to have continued, even into later periods. Abu 'l-Hadjdjadj Yusuf I, the Nasrid Sultan of Granada from 1333-1354, has been described in the following terms:

"He was of noble bearing and was endowed with extraordinary physical strength and good looks. His skin was too pale however, and, according to Arab historians, he increased his grave and majestic appearance by growing a beard which he dyed very black." [Sordo (1962) 120-121.]

Ultimately, Moorish Spain ended as it had begun: with a fair-haired ruler. Muhammad XII [Boabdil], was the last Sultan of Granada (AD 1482-1483, 1487-1492); Enrique Sordo depicts him thus:

"Among the paintings in the gallery of the Generalife Palace hangs Boabdil's portrait. In it his countenance is kindly, handsome and melancholy, his complexion rubicund and his hair blond." [Sordo (1962) 124.]

Islamic Egypt also possessed several Nordic rulers of significance. Al-Nasir Yusuf Salah al-Din [Saladin] (AD 1171-1193), founded the Ayyubid Dynasty (AD 1171-1254), when he was invested with the governance of Egypt and Syria. He was of Kurdish ancestry, and his contemporaries stated that he was tall, handsome, fair-skinned and light-eyed. [Fossier (1968) 315; Günther (1927) 151; Weyl (1967) 41.] Robert Gayre of Gayre informs us that:

"Salah-ed-din and many of his followers had Kurdish and northern blood which accounted for their lighter colouring..." [Gayre of Gayre (1972) 97.]

Al-Nasir al-Hasan, who was Sultan from 1347-1351, and then from 1354-1361, was one of the last rulers of the Turkic Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, which ruled Egypt from 1250-1390. According to the Medieval chronicalist Ibn Iyas, he had a blond beard and dull-blue eyes. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

Sultan Al-Nasir Faraj (AD 1399-1412), was the son of Al-Zahir Barquq [Burji] (AD 1382-1389, 1390-1399), the first of the Burji Mamluk rulers; the Dynasty reigned from 1390 to 1517, and was mostly of Circassian descent. Ibn Iyas stated that he was blond-bearded; he also noted that both Al-Nasir al-Hasan and Al-Nasir Faraj, possessed what he described as "Arab faces," which meant that they had long, noble countenances. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

Ibn Iyas also observed that Sultan Al-Mansur Qalaun (AD 1279-1290), of the Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, had fair hair and a fair complexion. [Vollers (1910) 91.]

During the period of Ottoman rule, Nordic racial elements once again achieved a position of ascendency in the Islamic world. Orhan (AD 1324-1362), the son of Osman I (AD 1280-1324), who was the founder of Ottoman rule in Anatolia, was the first of that dynasty to use the title "Sultan." He is described as being very tall, broad-shouldered, fair-skinned, light-eyed and blond-haired. The German physical anthropologist Professor Hans F. K. Günther, considers him to have been predominantly Nordic in type. [Günther (1934) 189-190.]

Mehmed II (AD 1451-1481), known as the Conqueror, was the Ottoman Sultan that ended the Byzantine Empire, and who occupied the city of Constantinople, converting it into Istanbul. A contemporary miniature of Mehmed, painted by the artist Sinan Bey, depicts him as a light-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed man. [Reader's Digest Association (1974) 127.]

Ottoman rule over North Africa — Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis — was extended and consolidated by the brothers Aruj and Kheir-ed-Din Barbarossa. The name Barbarossa stems from the Italian word for "Redbeard," and the brothers acquired this surname because of their ginger hair. [Baltzer (1934) 211.] Kheir-ed-Din (d. 1546), was appointed Regent of Algiers in 1530, and his reign was largely a success. [Mitchell (1976) 137.] Hans F. K. Günther refers to him as:

"the Viking-like Khair-ed-din Barbarossa, the founder of Osman [Ottoman] rule in North Africa, the red-bearded son of a Greek from Lesbos." [Günther (1927) 173.]

The link given below, leads to a web page which contains depictions of every one of the Ottoman Sultans. It is interesting to observe how many have reddish hair, light eyes, or a fair complexion.


http://almashriq.hiof.no/turkey/900/...humbnails.html

We may also note that the Algerian national hero Emir Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri (AD 1807-1883), who fought the French attempts to occupy his country in the 1830s and 1840s, appears to have been blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129-130.]

The racial trends of the Islamic past have continued into the present era; this has been demonstrated by the American author Nathaniel Weyl, who noted the relevant facts in the following manner:

"As Gayre cogently observes, there is a general correlation between blondism and Caucasoid features, on the one hand, and social status and leadership, on the other. This is by no means a recent development nor is it a reflection of the superior prestige and power which Nordics and other blond peoples have come to enjoy in the modern world....

As for the present leadership of the Arab world, Henric von Schwerin has pointed out the extent to which it tends towards blondness and the Nordic type.

The Christian minorities throughout the area are, as Dr. Gayre has observed, almost invariably superior in status, intelligence and ability to the Moslems, and are at the same time markedly blonder and more definitely Caucasoid in features. Moreover, the most vigorous, resourceful and progressive nations in the region — Lebanon and Jordan in particular — are also those with the largest Christian minorities and the greatest visible admixture of Nordic genes." [Weyl (1967) 28-29.]

The Nordic element in the Islamic world continues to play an important role — this is demonstrated by the fact that many of the leading statesmen in the recent history of the Middle East (particularly those who have organised the causes for national liberation and independence), have been predominantly Nordic in type: for instance, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881-1938), the founder of modern Turkey. During the First World War, he fought the Allies at Gallipoli, and after the Armistice in 1918, he prevented a European conquest of Anatolia. After deposing the Ottoman Sultan, he declared himself President of Turkey (1923-1938), and initiated a rapid and thorough process of modernisation and secularisation, which largely succeeded in westernising the Turkish Republic. He was blond-haired and blue-eyed — features which he seems to have inherited from his Albanian mother. As a result of this, Henric von Schwerin has stated that Atatürk:

"must be characterised as predominantly Nordic..." [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]

Haj Amin al-Husseini (d. 1974), the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was one of the most important individuals in the recent history of the Middle East: he was, for a long period of time, the foremost leader of the movement for Palestinian liberation, as well as being the President of the World Muslim Congress. During his lifetime he was renowned not only for his political activities, but also because his beard was reddish-blond and his eyes were blue. The Swedish authoress Karin Johnsson compared the Grand Mufti to Saladin, and Henric von Schwerin considered him to be:

"one of the most pronounced Nordic types among renowned Muslims of today." [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

Amongst the leadership of the Algerian rebellion against France, Ferhat Abbas (b. 1899), the first President of the GPRA, from 1958-1961, had green-grey eyes. [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Another high official in the FLN, Ahmed Boumendjel, Head of the GPRA delegation at the negotiations in Mélun in 1960, was fair, tall and well-built. It was said that his features were almost like those of a Frenchman. [von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Colonel Houari Boumédienne [Muhammad Boukharouba] (1925-1978), was the leader of the ALN, and after independence from France was granted in 1962, he became the President of Algeria (1965-1978). He was known as "the Swede," because of his fair hair; he is described as having:

"wispy, sandy hair, a straggly, reddish mustache, and small grey-blue eyes." [von Schwerin (1964) 130.]

Habib Bourguiba (b. 1902), was a leading figure in the struggle for Tunisian independance from French rule, and in 1934 he founded the Neo-Destour Party, as a means towards this end. After independence in 1956, he became the first President of Tunisia (1956-1987); he was blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] In Syria, Sultan Atrash, the leader of the Druse rebellion against France during the 1920s, had a very fair skin and clear blue eyes. [Günther (1930) 152; von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128-129.] Emir Adil Arslan, another important figure of the rebellion, had bluish-green eyes and strongly Nordic features. [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

Muhammad Idris al-Sanusi [Idris I] (1889-1983), Emir of Cyrenaica, and King of Libya (1951-1969), was said to have "calm blue eyes". [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] General Nuri-es-Said (1888-1958), the Iraqi premier for many years, was equally blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1964) 128.] Finally, we should note that Muhammad Ayub Khan (1907-1974), the President of Pakistan (1958-1969), was tall, fair-complexioned and grey-eyed. It was said by certain French journalists that:

"to judge from his appearance and manners, he could well be taken for a senior British officer..." [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by cassiterides:
Nordic Arabs by Karl Earlson

There appears to have been a blond, racially Nordic element, amongst the leadership of the Arabic peoples, from the very earliest times. Thus, as the distinguished Harvard anthropologist Carleton S. Coon has noted, when referring to the population of the Yemen plateau:

"The Nordic-looking people are usually confined to the social stratum from which civil officers and religious men are drawn, and it is more than a coincidence that the acknowledged descendants of the Prophet are lighter-skinned and show greater evidence of blondism than the rest of the population. There may perhaps have been a Nordic strain associated with the holy families who entered this region from the Hejaz in early post-Islamic times." [Coon (1939) 408-409.]

Professor C. S. Coon has also stated, that amongst the people of Morocco:

"The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance; others of them look like Mekkan aristocrats in Arabia." [Coon (1939) 484.]

The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned; a freedman, by the name of Umar, described the Prophet thus:

"his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red". [Guillaume (1987) 726.]

Most authorities on the issue appear to agree that Muhammad was brunet, but Henric von Schwerin has stated that:

"Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair." [von Schwerin (1960) 27.]

During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet's beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as "light," "reddish," or "fair," but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as "blonde." [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis (1990) 36; Vollers (1910) 91.] Subsequently, she has become known to the Islamic peoples as "Aisha the Blonde." [Günther (1930) 168.]

Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance — possibly in imitation and pursuance of a fair-haired, Nordic ideal. [Günther (1930) 163.]

Caliph Ali (AD 656-661), a first cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was also renowned for his blond hair, as were his descendants, who founded the Shi'ite branch of Islam. [Grant (1981) 84-85; Lewis (1990) 36.] However, it was bitterly resented by some Muslims, that the physical features which characterised a true descendant of Muhammad, were steadily being lost, due to admixture with darker races. Thus, as the Syrian poet Abu'l-Ala (AD 973-1057), remarked in a letter:

"We often see a man of mark who has in his house women of high degree setting above them a girl in a striped gown purchased for a few coins and so we may see a man whose grandfather on the father's side is a fair-haired descendant of Ali while his maternal grandfather is a black idolator." [Lewis (1990) 89.]

It would also appear that many of the numerous and diverse rulers of Moorish Spain, were racially Nordic; the Spanish historian Enrique Sordo, informs us that:

"Most of the caliphs were fair or ginger-haired with blue eyes, which seems to show a preponderance of Berber or Germanic blood. As they were extremely proud of their origin, some of them dyed their hair black, as if to affirm their Arab descent." [Sordo (1962) 24.]

This trend towards blondism began with the very first independent Muslim ruler of the Iberian Peninsula. Abd al-Rahman I (AD 756-788), the founder of the Cordoban Emirate, was a Syrian from the Damascus region, and belonged to the imperial Umayyad family: he was a grandson of Caliph Hisham (AD 724-743). His mother was a Berber slave-girl, and his father was the Syrio-Arab Umayyad, Muawiya. He is said to have been a "colossal red-haired man". [Grant (1981) 90; Sordo (1962) 23.]

In 1232, Muhammad b. Yusuf b. Nasr from Banu 'l-Ahmar, made himself the Sultan of the kingdom of Granada, a feat which he achieved by consolidating several Muslim petty kingdoms in southern Spain. Muhammad I was known as Ibn al Ahmar (son of the red), because of his red hair; he was the founder of the Nasrid dynasty, and ruled from 1232 to 1273. [Sordo (1962) 120; Vollers (1910) 87.]

This trait appears to have continued, even into later periods. Abu 'l-Hadjdjadj Yusuf I, the Nasrid Sultan of Granada from 1333-1354, has been described in the following terms:

"He was of noble bearing and was endowed with extraordinary physical strength and good looks. His skin was too pale however, and, according to Arab historians, he increased his grave and majestic appearance by growing a beard which he dyed very black." [Sordo (1962) 120-121.]

Ultimately, Moorish Spain ended as it had begun: with a fair-haired ruler. Muhammad XII [Boabdil], was the last Sultan of Granada (AD 1482-1483, 1487-1492); Enrique Sordo depicts him thus:

"Among the paintings in the gallery of the Generalife Palace hangs Boabdil's portrait. In it his countenance is kindly, handsome and melancholy, his complexion rubicund and his hair blond." [Sordo (1962) 124.]

Islamic Egypt also possessed several Nordic rulers of significance. Al-Nasir Yusuf Salah al-Din [Saladin] (AD 1171-1193), founded the Ayyubid Dynasty (AD 1171-1254), when he was invested with the governance of Egypt and Syria. He was of Kurdish ancestry, and his contemporaries stated that he was tall, handsome, fair-skinned and light-eyed. [Fossier (1968) 315; Günther (1927) 151; Weyl (1967) 41.] Robert Gayre of Gayre informs us that:

"Salah-ed-din and many of his followers had Kurdish and northern blood which accounted for their lighter colouring..." [Gayre of Gayre (1972) 97.]

Al-Nasir al-Hasan, who was Sultan from 1347-1351, and then from 1354-1361, was one of the last rulers of the Turkic Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, which ruled Egypt from 1250-1390. According to the Medieval chronicalist Ibn Iyas, he had a blond beard and dull-blue eyes. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

Sultan Al-Nasir Faraj (AD 1399-1412), was the son of Al-Zahir Barquq [Burji] (AD 1382-1389, 1390-1399), the first of the Burji Mamluk rulers; the Dynasty reigned from 1390 to 1517, and was mostly of Circassian descent. Ibn Iyas stated that he was blond-bearded; he also noted that both Al-Nasir al-Hasan and Al-Nasir Faraj, possessed what he described as "Arab faces," which meant that they had long, noble countenances. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

Ibn Iyas also observed that Sultan Al-Mansur Qalaun (AD 1279-1290), of the Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, had fair hair and a fair complexion. [Vollers (1910) 91.]

During the period of Ottoman rule, Nordic racial elements once again achieved a position of ascendency in the Islamic world. Orhan (AD 1324-1362), the son of Osman I (AD 1280-1324), who was the founder of Ottoman rule in Anatolia, was the first of that dynasty to use the title "Sultan." He is described as being very tall, broad-shouldered, fair-skinned, light-eyed and blond-haired. The German physical anthropologist Professor Hans F. K. Günther, considers him to have been predominantly Nordic in type. [Günther (1934) 189-190.]

Mehmed II (AD 1451-1481), known as the Conqueror, was the Ottoman Sultan that ended the Byzantine Empire, and who occupied the city of Constantinople, converting it into Istanbul. A contemporary miniature of Mehmed, painted by the artist Sinan Bey, depicts him as a light-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed man. [Reader's Digest Association (1974) 127.]

Ottoman rule over North Africa — Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis — was extended and consolidated by the brothers Aruj and Kheir-ed-Din Barbarossa. The name Barbarossa stems from the Italian word for "Redbeard," and the brothers acquired this surname because of their ginger hair. [Baltzer (1934) 211.] Kheir-ed-Din (d. 1546), was appointed Regent of Algiers in 1530, and his reign was largely a success. [Mitchell (1976) 137.] Hans F. K. Günther refers to him as:

"the Viking-like Khair-ed-din Barbarossa, the founder of Osman [Ottoman] rule in North Africa, the red-bearded son of a Greek from Lesbos." [Günther (1927) 173.]

The link given below, leads to a web page which contains depictions of every one of the Ottoman Sultans. It is interesting to observe how many have reddish hair, light eyes, or a fair complexion.


http://almashriq.hiof.no/turkey/900/...humbnails.html

We may also note that the Algerian national hero Emir Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri (AD 1807-1883), who fought the French attempts to occupy his country in the 1830s and 1840s, appears to have been blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129-130.]

The racial trends of the Islamic past have continued into the present era; this has been demonstrated by the American author Nathaniel Weyl, who noted the relevant facts in the following manner:

"As Gayre cogently observes, there is a general correlation between blondism and Caucasoid features, on the one hand, and social status and leadership, on the other. This is by no means a recent development nor is it a reflection of the superior prestige and power which Nordics and other blond peoples have come to enjoy in the modern world....

As for the present leadership of the Arab world, Henric von Schwerin has pointed out the extent to which it tends towards blondness and the Nordic type.

The Christian minorities throughout the area are, as Dr. Gayre has observed, almost invariably superior in status, intelligence and ability to the Moslems, and are at the same time markedly blonder and more definitely Caucasoid in features. Moreover, the most vigorous, resourceful and progressive nations in the region — Lebanon and Jordan in particular — are also those with the largest Christian minorities and the greatest visible admixture of Nordic genes." [Weyl (1967) 28-29.]

The Nordic element in the Islamic world continues to play an important role — this is demonstrated by the fact that many of the leading statesmen in the recent history of the Middle East (particularly those who have organised the causes for national liberation and independence), have been predominantly Nordic in type: for instance, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881-1938), the founder of modern Turkey. During the First World War, he fought the Allies at Gallipoli, and after the Armistice in 1918, he prevented a European conquest of Anatolia. After deposing the Ottoman Sultan, he declared himself President of Turkey (1923-1938), and initiated a rapid and thorough process of modernisation and secularisation, which largely succeeded in westernising the Turkish Republic. He was blond-haired and blue-eyed — features which he seems to have inherited from his Albanian mother. As a result of this, Henric von Schwerin has stated that Atatürk:

"must be characterised as predominantly Nordic..." [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]

Haj Amin al-Husseini (d. 1974), the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was one of the most important individuals in the recent history of the Middle East: he was, for a long period of time, the foremost leader of the movement for Palestinian liberation, as well as being the President of the World Muslim Congress. During his lifetime he was renowned not only for his political activities, but also because his beard was reddish-blond and his eyes were blue. The Swedish authoress Karin Johnsson compared the Grand Mufti to Saladin, and Henric von Schwerin considered him to be:

"one of the most pronounced Nordic types among renowned Muslims of today." [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

Amongst the leadership of the Algerian rebellion against France, Ferhat Abbas (b. 1899), the first President of the GPRA, from 1958-1961, had green-grey eyes. [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Another high official in the FLN, Ahmed Boumendjel, Head of the GPRA delegation at the negotiations in Mélun in 1960, was fair, tall and well-built. It was said that his features were almost like those of a Frenchman. [von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Colonel Houari Boumédienne [Muhammad Boukharouba] (1925-1978), was the leader of the ALN, and after independence from France was granted in 1962, he became the President of Algeria (1965-1978). He was known as "the Swede," because of his fair hair; he is described as having:

"wispy, sandy hair, a straggly, reddish mustache, and small grey-blue eyes." [von Schwerin (1964) 130.]

Habib Bourguiba (b. 1902), was a leading figure in the struggle for Tunisian independance from French rule, and in 1934 he founded the Neo-Destour Party, as a means towards this end. After independence in 1956, he became the first President of Tunisia (1956-1987); he was blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] In Syria, Sultan Atrash, the leader of the Druse rebellion against France during the 1920s, had a very fair skin and clear blue eyes. [Günther (1930) 152; von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128-129.] Emir Adil Arslan, another important figure of the rebellion, had bluish-green eyes and strongly Nordic features. [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

Muhammad Idris al-Sanusi [Idris I] (1889-1983), Emir of Cyrenaica, and King of Libya (1951-1969), was said to have "calm blue eyes". [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] General Nuri-es-Said (1888-1958), the Iraqi premier for many years, was equally blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1964) 128.] Finally, we should note that Muhammad Ayub Khan (1907-1974), the President of Pakistan (1958-1969), was tall, fair-complexioned and grey-eyed. It was said by certain French journalists that:

"to judge from his appearance and manners, he could well be taken for a senior British officer..." [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]

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Thrall (þræll) look up the words: Saqaliba and Mamluk.

Thanks for your time.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Of course the Prophet loved his red hair most black do.

hhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eSkVurklMw&feature=feedlik

Nex't you'll be telling me the Quraish had freckles.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by cassiterides:
Nordic Arabs by Karl Earlson

There appears to have been a blond, racially Nordic element, amongst the leadership of the Arabic peoples, from the very earliest times. Thus, as the distinguished Harvard anthropologist Carleton S. Coon has noted, when referring to the population of the Yemen plateau:

"The Nordic-looking people are usually confined to the social stratum from which civil officers and religious men are drawn, and it is more than a coincidence that the acknowledged descendants of the Prophet are lighter-skinned and show greater evidence of blondism than the rest of the population. There may perhaps have been a Nordic strain associated with the holy families who entered this region from the Hejaz in early post-Islamic times." [Coon (1939) 408-409.]

Professor C. S. Coon has also stated, that amongst the people of Morocco:

"The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance; others of them look like Mekkan aristocrats in Arabia." [Coon (1939) 484.]

The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned; a freedman, by the name of Umar, described the Prophet thus:

"his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red". [Guillaume (1987) 726.]

Most authorities on the issue appear to agree that Muhammad was brunet, but Henric von Schwerin has stated that:

"Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair." [von Schwerin (1960) 27.]

During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet's beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as "light," "reddish," or "fair," but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as "blonde." [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis

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Thrall (þræll) look up the words: Saqaliba and Mamluk.

Thanks for your time.

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[/qb][/QUOTE]Thrall (þræll) look up the words: Saqaliba and Mamluk.

Thanks for your time. [/QB][/QUOTE]
lol!

To reiterate a few points though - this guy should have replaced the word "Nordic" with Slavic, Slav or slave. It is well known the Slavonic peoples made up a great portion of the early slaves as concubines and military of the Arab world. As did the Persians , Syrians and blond Byzantines at one time.

I only know this explanation of Humaira comes from the "Office of Sheikh al-Habib" in London on alqatrah.net -
"Arabs used to rather call the woman who experiences constant menstrual bleeding ‘Humaira’; ... This explains the reason why we find the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) in some narrations describing Aisha as: “Ya Humaira al-Saqain”. Abu Bakr was from a Quraysh clan of Tamim and Aisha's mother was from the Kinanah which leaves out the possiblity of her being FAIR.


Keep hope alive though. LOL!


Sa'ad Ibn Abdul Rahman Al-Saud brother of King ibn Sa'ud. Photo from early 1900s.


Dhahabi “Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man (fair-skinned man) as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is LIKE THAT OF THE SLAVES who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia."

Ibn Rabbihu of Cordoba's mentions an early pure ARab who said one of the seven "rare things" OF THE WORLD was an Arab with fair skin - which he called "unthinkable".

Boy what a few concubines can do in a few decades. Tsk, tsk, tsk.


The Syrians and Arabs already told you what the word "white "(Abyad) meant in the black man's world,

Howe many times does this have to be posted -

Thalab (Central Asian) 11th c. - "The Arabs don't say that a man is white because of a white complexion ..If they mean his complexion is "white" they say red ( ahmar).

Dhahabi (Syrian) 14th c. " When the Arabs say that a person is "white" THEY MEAN THAT HE IS BLACK with a light brownish undertone."

What do you not understand about these sentences.

Ibn Manzur/Mandur (Tunisian born) 14th c. "most arabs are dark brown".

"When the Arabs say that a person is white they don't mean he has white skin..." Lisaan al Arab. What do you not understand about these sentences.

The black Arabs called the black Abyssinians people with white faces. The Ibo of Nigeria in Africa call some of their black Ibo people "white" because their skins although black are with a light brown caste.

This is the way it was for thousands of years in the world of THE BLACKS.

Your propositions are thus NULL and VOID.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

Sa'ad Ibn Abdul Rahman Al-Saud brother of King ibn Sa'ud. Photo from early 1900s.


A passage from a book biography on the present Saudi royal family illustrates the role and impact of the white slave trade on the appearance of modern inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula and particularly its ruling or upper classes. The passage reads as follows.
“…before evening Ibn Saud had sent camels post haste to fetch him back. He called Shalub to him, sat him down beside him and after talking with him for a while sent him to his house. When Shalub arrived he found waiting for him as a present from Ibn Saud a white-skinned and exquisitely desirable Georgian slave-girl, who was beautiful but, for he was past his prime, made his life a burden.’ Lord of Arabia ibn Saud an intimate study of a King .
Ibn Saud was king of Saudi Arabia born in the 1800s whose brother is shown above. The Saudi ruler’s indulgences in the white slave trade was a continuation of what had been occurring with women in the Near East as in most patriarchal lands for many centuries if not millenniums. The present ruling class of the Persian gulf and other Arab states are the offspring of these mostly white concubines.

The 19th century Dictionary of Islam states of the trade in the Arabian peninsula:.
“the female white slave is kept solely for the master’s sensual gratification and is sold when he is tired of her, and so she passes from master to master a very wreck of womanhood.”



King ibn Sa'ud bottom left
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
dana marniche


The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.

Lol! try again. I have been to Saudi Arabia most people are rather swarthy but some are pale especially some of the Women. It's only logical to assume that the term White would refer to lightest phenotype extant, no? And they do have "White" people. Observe.


And then you claim that "White" referred to shinny unblemished Black skin! You're too funny!

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Please don't put words in my mouth. Some Arab-speaking Iranian called Masud al Taftazaani said that. It is Ibn mandhur's direct quote from him some several hundred years ago. lol!

BTW- the ancient Hebrews used the word "white" in the same way for someone whose skin was luminous, not someone whose skin was pale, or fair and reddish. Sorry for that undeniable fact brought to you by David Goldenberg in The Curse of Ham, 2003, p. 93.
.


Its not about logic and what modern inhabitants of Arabia look like. It is about what the early Arabic speakers said. At that time fair skinned was associated with slavery. PERIOD! I think its funny two how times have changed to the exact opposite and now its the blacks that are considered slaves. So we can all laugh together.

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Likely our friend Masud al Taftazaani was waxing poetic. Certianly he would have been aware of many pale White people in Iran. You may be right about the hebrews, as David was refered to as ruddy.
And the Zanj revolt which allegedely resulted in Black rule in certain areas of Arabia was short lived. Clearly people were light skinned before and after as per the words of Al Jahiz..

"We have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs (Negroes) revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood." Apparently Al Jahiz had a clear sense of the original Arabians being a distinct and lighter race ("white"). Or do you think they were simply overbearingly luminous?? In any case when we look at depictions of Arabs from midieval times its usually the light skinned types that predominate.







I seriously doubt that Mohammad was Black, not that there would be anything wrong if he was..

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Central Asians are Central Asians and not Hijazis or any other Arabian. Why keep putting people of Siberian and Mongolian ORIGIN and affiliation who are still living there in TURKMENISTAN, UZBEKISTAN and other parts of what was known as PERSIA - WHERE THEY STILL LIVE when Arabs were NOT MONGOLS. Neither were the Arabized Syrians and Iraqis Siberian-related people originally.


Modern Turkoman of Central Asia


Muhammad was like the rest of the people of Hijaz and thear area of Mecca Arabia dark brown or black. He is called Akhdar and sumra which are teh words for dark brown or near black in the bedouin Arabic even today.

Muhammad was the grandson of the jet black Abd Al Mutallib and his near relatives were the tar colored Hassan son of . His uncle was the "black" Sa'd ibn Waqqas, His mother's fathers and mothers are described as "black-skinned" individual from the tribe of Sulaym, Khazraj, Kinaanah the lava colored populations of the Harra. His immediate relatives in the Quraysh are all described as black and even tar colored people. None of them were of fair complexion.

So unless you have some proof that the Prophet was (pbuh) a descendant of some slave than I would stop dreaming.


Adam in the Hebrew i.e. not Romans and Russians converted to Judaism - means black and not Red. lol! Edom and Admon as "red"?! That's another unbelievable fabrication you Euronuts like to lean on. got some news for you. Adam in the ancient eraly semitic and Arabic dialects means the black earth or mud. The word Admon is of course derived from this as well as adam, adhlam, dahlam, . Most translations of the Qur’aan 15:28 says Allah fashioned the first man man out of the black mud. Now how did he get to be red.


It is not the fault of the early semites that some people who learned Hebrew have not come to translate the word meaning the black earth into earth , and red.

Early Israelites and Arabs wrote of Sem and Moses being black for a reason.


The only people speaking elements Hebrew continuously are the Hudhail a people of black and shining skins in Hijaz.

Hadhal and their tribe of Banu Lahiyan (named for Lehi) are descendants of the Lihyanites and Eliezer the priest or Kahin. last of the Judaean peoples.

The black Jews of Khaibar (Chaboras) are their relatives.

The Banu Nadir and Qurayza and Hadhal descend from Amr sons of Nuham and grandson of Awf son of Qays son of Finhas (Phinehas) son of al Azar al Kahin (Biblical Eliazar the priest) ibn Harun (Aaron) son of Imran (Amram) son of Qahut or Kuhath (Qahit) son of Lawi (Levi).

Ibn Habib Muhabbar, 387.

Unfortunately Europeans call the genealogies of these last of the Jews fabrications but it is them that have been fabricating and perpetuating myths.

No - neither Muhammad, nor THE MOORS, nor THE ARABS were related originally related to 15th century Turkoman and I'm tired of arguing about this!
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss:
[




Well I appreciate your correction regarding the Qaf letter. I am not a specialist in the language and studied it less than two years as an undergrad.

Will definitely check into the British museum site. That is why it is important to keep copies though on disk. I don't trust these computers. They're always crashing.

By the way are you saying the Mahra, Shahra, Qara, Maddhij, Murad and other black or Qahtan Arabian tribes are all called "akhdam" in Yemen.

If the akhdam are ancient Arabians or Hadramautis I am wondering which clans they belong to.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:




King ibn Sa'ud bottom left

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____^^^^When he was in his 40s

dana, don't tell me your as delusional as Ironedlion.

below the exact same man King ibn Sa'ud, the first monarch of Saudi Arabia, in his 60s



dana, maybe your spins can fool some people in America but there are multi millions of people in Saudi Arabia and the Middle East who know at a glance what the man looked like.
 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
lol

dana the jew loving black arabist.
 

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Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IronLion:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
__________________________________________________________

King Abdul-Aziz of Saudi Arabia

first monarch of Saud also known as Ibn Saud

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Saud_of_Saudi_Arabia



__________________IN HIS 40s



__________________IN HIS 60s



again Abdul Aziz ibn Saud pictured in various stages of his life at the bottom of the following website page:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/abdulaziz.htm

Beginning with the reconquest of his family's ancestral home city of Riyadh in 1902, he consolidated his control over the Najd in 1922, conquered the Hijaz in 1925. The nation was founded and unified as Saudi Arabia in 1932, the Ottoman empire had fallen.

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His Daddy, Abdulrahman Saud,
head of house of Saud 1890:



and

His brothers, Al Saudis 1911


A Muur

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Lionese pay attention.

Stop being a cowardly closet lesbian.

Are those people in the picture above Muurs or not?
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
[q

Oops Lyin_ss - apparently we were both wrong that wasn't the same man just his brother with other brothers.

Now how about posting the less lightened up photos of the real founder of Saudi Arabia. Reminder for you - only kodachrome type color was back in use in the 1940s and 50s.Lol!


King ibn Saud founder in truer to-life color. Still mulatto enough for you , I'm sure.

Born 1870s died 1953.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:


black Persian ???

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