The A.Egyptians were well aware of the diversity of Tropical Africans. In their art they painted Africans with a variety of colors, shapes and sizes.
East African Puntites..
Egyptians/Nilotics
/
We Must NEVER forget what Egypt Stands for,....
AFRICAN UNITY....
It Took Narmer-Menes to Untie the Tribes of the Nile Valley, and they built stone Tombs and Temples and Cities to the Africa Gods and Goddesses
Don't forget that Egypt is always presented in the Mdu-Neter as UNITED No where is the Suten Introduced as King of a disunified land, but as King of Upper and Lower Egypt...This was not a simple thing...A King was not a King without this Title...
This 'throne name', enclosed in a cartouche and preceded by the nswt-bity sw:t L2:t, indicates that the ruler is King of Upper and Lower Egypt (the plant on the left side being the symbol of Upper Egypt, and the bee on the right side symbolizing Lower Egypt). More generally, this symbolizes that the king is the king of dualities: Upper and Lower Egypt, desert and cultivated lands, the human and the divine, and so forth. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Egyptian Skin Tones..
Africans are beautiful..
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Jari - it is unwise to read too much into so-called Egyptian paintings. All those in good condition have been repainted by Whites, and as you should know, they routinely modify them to look like White people. Then of course, there is the problem of natural fading. And the other complication of "Stylized" Egyptian art of the Amarna period.
I'm sure that you know that Egyptian females didn't really look like this.
But they really DID look like this.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Now if it's phenotype diversity you're interested in....
Check this couple out!
The fact that Yuny's face is almost obliterated while Renenutet's is almost untouched, suggests that Yuny's unusual face, was something some White person along the way, didn't want shown. Maybe they didn't want the world to know that there were Africans with Mongol features? Who but an Albino, can know what's in the mind of an Albino.
"Yuny and his wife, Renenutet, the subjects of this pair statue, were members of Egypt's nobility. Yuny held a number of supervisory titles, several of which associate him with medical personnel of a temple in the Asyut region. Renenutet's titles indicate that she served in local temples as well. The menat necklace, a percussion instrument held in her left hand, was used during religious rituals and reinforces Renenutet's connection to a local temple dedicated to Hathor.
"The sculptor has done an exceptional job of carving the details that convey to the viewer the elaborate clothing, coiffures, and jewelry worn by the Ramesside nobility. In the upper register of the chair's back, Yuny and Renenutet sit in front of a laden offering table while receiving a libation from a priest. Below, Renenutet offers a libation to her parents, Metjay and Yia. The presence of her parents among the decorative scenes suggests that Renenutet, not Yuny, may have commissioned this piece. Since the statue was found in the tomb of Yuny's father, Amenhotep, we know that at least two generations and two families were venerated within the single tomb."
Interestingly, this statue, supposedly of Yuny, looks quite different. Once White people get involved with Black artifacts - well, there's just no telling.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Likewise, I'm sure you know that Black Egyptian men didn't really look like THIS one, on the left!
But they most certainly DID look like THIS!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^AS you know, you could walk down the street in any major city of the western world, and see Black men who look EXACTLY like those Egyptian men from 4,000 years ago.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
So now you know that Egyptian overseers didn't really look like these.
.
And Nubians didn't really look like that^
Or THIS.
They looked like THIS. (The same as Egyptians).
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Libel is cheap, Mike, until someone takes you to court.
Such images as these, which Jari continually ignores, are perfectly authentic:
Egypt never stood for African unity, unless this is your idea of African unity in action: Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ are you really trying to say that racism doesn't exist and nothing about Egypt has been fabricated or even covered up?
Do you really think the one eyed Nefertiti is authentic? Can you be that out of touch with Egyptian artistic style and so full of fantasy that it isn't obviously a fraud to you?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
BBC News:
The famous bust of Queen Nefertiti believed to be 3,400 years old could be a fake, according to an art historian. Henri Stierlin, who has studied the subject for 25 years, claims the bust of the Egyptian beauty is a 1912 copy. He suggests it was made on the orders of German archaeologist Ludwig Borchardt, who is credited with finding the treasure on the banks of the Nile. A spokesperson for the Neues Museum in Berlin, where the bust is housed, was not available for comment.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: BBC News:
The famous bust of Queen Nefertiti believed to be 3,400 years old could be a fake, according to an art historian. Henri Stierlin, who has studied the subject for 25 years, claims the bust of the Egyptian beauty is a 1912 copy. He suggests it was made on the orders of German archaeologist Ludwig Borchardt, who is credited with finding the treasure on the banks of the Nile. A spokesperson for the Neues Museum in Berlin, where the bust is housed, was not available for comment.
^^^^ This statue of Nefertiti is non-controversial
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Egyptian stuff has been forgerd the same way art and antiques of all culture has been forged. There are fake Benin Bronzes and Gabon masks, but you don't hear white equivalents of Manu Ampim going on about a black conspiracy to cover up the great caucasian civilization that thrived in tropical West Africa!
Certainly there is no racist conspiracy to cover up the nature of ancient Egypt. In every Egyptian museum you see figures that look more black and more white, and a lot of intermediate types. Precisely this range is found in the living population of Egypt!
The Nefertiti bust is probably authentic. It has paint of the right period (which has been carbon dated). It is rather too elaborate for something made purely to 'test the pigment', as the 'delerious' (as Hawass put it) Stierlin claims! It also matches the facial features of a female mummy of the same dynasty, namely KV35YL.
The features are clearly credibly Egyptian, and as for the skin tone, it is the same as that of Ankhesenamun (Nefertiti's daughter) painted on the wall of Tutankhamun's burial chamber...
Can an armless Venus possibly be authentic? This is how silly the one-eye issue is. Obviously Nefertiti's bust was meant to have two eyes. It was found in the sculptor's workshop and could have been awaiting repair as the other eye was not located. (The remaining eye isn't quite intact, eiter, by the way, part of the iris and the bit of white on the inside is missing, revealing the same sort of hollow where the missing eyes should sit. The idea that it was not made to accomodate two inlaid eyes is clearly stupid.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Many thanks for this one Jari. I came across some statues of mustachioed old Kingdom men but I did not index the source. Such imagery goes to show that the mustache on Rahotep in his statue paired with Nofret is not indicative of fakery.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
Head of Nefertiti:
quote:
Kv17 (Sety I):
quote:
Sandstone Head of a Man 11-13th dynasty:
quote:
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
How can you tell when an European is lying? His lips move or his hand is grasping a pen. In relaying historic content, Albinos are guilty until proven innocent.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Many thanks for this one Jari. I came across some statues of mustachioed old Kingdom men but I did not index the source. Such imagery goes to show that the mustache on Rahotep in his statue paired with Nofret is not indicative of fakery.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Moustaches were obviously quite common in the Old Kingdom. Here are some more...
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing: How can you tell when an European is lying? His lips move or his hand is grasping a pen. In relaying historic content, Albinos are guilty until proven innocent.
Shut up you stupid racist idiot. You have nothing to contribute but prejudice, hatred and slander. If you haven't the decency to assume your adversary in a debate is sincere the you are not mature enough to be in it. Come back when you are worthy of talking with the grown ups.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
@Jari, I doubt Africa[n] unity in the sense that we as common-day black people understand today existed during the formation and course of the civilization. Having said that, i do not doubt the Egyptians being most familiar with other African populations due to the state of sharing features, attributes and lineage.
@Lioness, how many times are you going to post that particular statue of Nefertiti? There are other portraits bearing Nefertiti name you know?
quote:
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Whats odd(or not) is that it looks like the Egyptians had a preferred style, a very thin Mustache..
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Many thanks for this one Jari. I came across some statues of mustachioed old Kingdom men but I did not index the source. Such imagery goes to show that the mustache on Rahotep in his statue paired with Nofret is not indicative of fakery.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Moustaches were obviously quite common in the Old Kingdom. Here are some more...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
We Must NEVER forget what Egypt Stands for,....
AFRICAN UNITY....
That's a Wally-esque feel good statement.
the Egyptians had no word for Africa much less spoke aboke African unity. At times they attacked and plundered Nubia and Libya. There is no evidence that they explored or knew about regions of Africa that were far from them like many parts West Africa and South Africa.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
They did seem to like their thin moustaches, very much anticipating Sammy Davis Jr. or Clark Gable, and President Nasser, of course.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
We Must NEVER forget what Egypt Stands for,....
AFRICAN UNITY....
That's a Wally-esque feel good statement.
the Egyptians had no word for Africa much less spoke aboke African unity. At times they attacked and plundered Nubia and Libya. There is no evidence that they explored or knew about regions of Africa that were far from them like many parts West Africa and South Africa.
Indeed.
Egyptians lumped the rest of Africa (the bits they knew of) along with their Asiatic neighbours as the foreign 'other', the realm of Set, not governed by Ma'at. It's a bit like how the Greeks considered all foreigners to be benighted 'barbarians'. Some of the African peoples in Jari's earlier images (as well as the Syrians) are presented as tribute-paying subjects rather than great allies in a unity project.
Nice idea, but overly idealistic. Doesn't stop the Europeans being similarly idealistic about the Greeks, I suppose. (The Greeks had a Greek identity, not an European one.)
It could be said that Egyptian artworks could inspire Nubian solidarity with Syria and Libya, as representatives of all these three traditional enemies are regularly seen receiving the same tender mercies from the Egyptians!
There is some reason to think the Nubians and Hyksos allied against the resurgent New Kingdom. It would certainly make sense. This strikes me as similar to the Franco-Scottish 'auld alliance' against England, that lasted through the Middle Ages and beyond. As the saying goes, 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Whats odd(or not) is that it looks like the Egyptians had a preferred style, a very thin Mustache..
Great note on the artistic convention of mustaches on the 4th dynastic statues. Alternatively to the custom, the statue of Rahotep held in the Cairo Museum has a thick mustache when compared with the other 4th dynastic statues of the old kingdom which bear a very thin painted mustache.
quote:Rahotep
quote:Some mustachioed statues of the 4th dynasty
What is also unusual is the mustache exhibited on Rahotep has a layering effect. When observing some other mustaches on the statues of the 4th dynasty in most cases a very thin line of black paint is rendered as a mustache in comparison to the laying effect Rahoteps mustache demonstrates.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
Sahel, the stylized imafes of Nefertiti that you are fonder of tend not to match the KV35YL mummy so well as the Berlin bust or carvings with a similar profile, such as this:
But I'm sure this has all been gone over before.
Members of the 18th dynasty don't seem to have felt any greater affinity for other Afrians than for Asiatics. The widowed Ankhesenamun sent to the Hittites for a possible replacement husband, not the Nubians. Amenhotep III had Syrian princesses as wives, and told his flunkey in the occupied near east to 'send very beautiful women (but none with shrill voices'. Some seem to have nubian wives, as did Mentuhotep in the middle kingdom. Late period dynasties had a lot of Libyan connections, too but there is no pattern of union with other Africans as a rule.
Posted by rahotep101 (Member # 18764) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Whats odd(or not) is that it looks like the Egyptians had a preferred style, a very thin Mustache..
Great note on the artistic convention of mustaches on the 4th dynastic statues. Alternatively to the custom, the statue of Rahotep held in the Cairo Museum has a thick mustache when compared with the other 4th dynastic statues of the old kingdom which bear a very thin painted mustache.
quote:Rahotep
quote:Some mustachioed statues of the 4th dynasty
What is also unusual is the mustache exhibited on Rahotep has a layering effect. When observing some other mustaches on the statues of the 4th dynasty in most cases a very thin line of black paint is rendered as a mustache in comparison to the laying effect Rahoteps mustache demonstrates.
This is true, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that degree of artistic conformity at this stage. It's hardly grounds for questioning authenticity, in my opinion. There's also the consideration that the Rahotep statue is of a slightly finer quality than the others, and more like a proper, recognizable portrait. It also has rock crystal eyes unlike many of the less elite statues.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The A.Egyptians were well aware of the diversity of Tropical Africans. In their art they painted Africans with a variety of colors, shapes and sizes.
^^Let none forget that the ancient Egyptians ARE tropical Africans.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: Sahel, the stylized imafes of Nefertiti that you are fonder of tend not to match the KV35YL mummy so well as the Berlin bust or carvings with a similar profile, such as this:
But I'm sure this has all been gone over before.
Members of the 18th dynasty don't seem to have felt any greater affinity for other Afrians than for Asiatics. The widowed Ankhesenamun sent to the Hittites for a possible replacement husband, not the Nubians. Amenhotep III had Syrian princesses as wives, and told his flunkey in the occupied near east to 'send very beautiful women (but none with shrill voices'. Some seem to have nubian wives, as did Mentuhotep in the middle kingdom. Late period dynasties had a lot of Libyan connections, too but there is no pattern of union with other Africans as a rule.
^ exactly why posting pictures of white Egyptian women to try to make an argument about a White Egypt only damages your credibility. We know that many of the Women depicted are not Egyptian.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
deleted.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: So now you know that Egyptian overseers didn't really look like these.
.
And Nubians didn't really look like that^
Or THIS.
They looked like THIS. (The same as Egyptians).
Wrong, you have it wrong to a certain degree but right on some other points.
Nubians came in varied head shapes and skin tones,of course the most common head shape for nubian,at least the ones in upper in southern nubia was broad or round heads,while in lower nubia before the kushite period the nubians there look more closer to ancient egyptians,so even then you diverse looks while the egyptians head shape on average was more long-headed,and on average the nubians were darker skin.
Keep in mind egyptian art tends to be idealized on average,more so then later nubian art.
The art images to see what the average nubian look or closer too is kushite and later nubian art itself.
I think when the egyptians made art to show themselves,then tend to idealize themselves more while for others like the nubians they tend to show a more realistic image,but nubian art itself showed a more realistic image on average.
That art image of Prince horemakhet above is KUSHITE ART but still idealized to a point,other kushite art at this time could show a less idealized version or more realistic version. Kushite art varied just like egyptian art,but like i said they were more realistic on average then ancient egyptian art,even more so later on average more or less.
Other Kushite art would have showed a more realistic image of the prince,but keep in mind kushite art could be idealized too but less so then ancient egypt.
Prince horemakhet in real life looked more like taharqa,and we have a really good idea whta taharqa looked liked,even the assyrians made art showing that taharqa was dark skin man with a rond head and thick lips and since the kushite royal family all married within thier family,meaning brother and sisters,we would have a good idea what the kushite royal family looked like,so you have to read between the lines and you will get a more clear or even better idea what they really looked like,and of course you have to study and see the mummies has well.
The best place to get a idea what the egyptians and nubians looked like in the past,is to see what nubians looked like in sudan and egypt today,kenya,uganda and chad today.
Too get a better idea what nubians really look like on average in the past is to look at what the hill nubians and darfur nubians look like then arabized nubians and nile valley nubians of sudan.
Nothing beats looking at the real thing to get a better idea what they look like,that's why you should not only focus mostly on art images,but other areas should be focus on to in combination with the art images and study of bones,mummies,read eyewitness reports that mention the kushites/noba or nubians that had woolly hair,thick lips and dark skin and round heads on average.
Anyway the average ancient egyptian look closer to a nubian then they did a greek for example,so yes most ancient egyptians look like black africans,and art images shown above in this post here are clearly black africans,but some of the images more realistic then others.
We should not only rely only on the art to get a good idea what egyptian and nubians lOOKED liked,other factors should be focus on too,to get a even better idea on how they really look like.
So i do not see what all what the big fuss is all about,ALL the images above in this post clearly look like black africans,but the kushites have a art image look that is called that is called the kushite look and the egyptians to a point have there own look ,it just shown that black africans are diverse just like what the topic says,i will go in more details about this below.
Folks have to be more clear when talking about what a egyptian or nubian really looked like and not mislead.
The two books called the kingdom of kush,explains this in more details.
Books like these is were i get my info,not the computer.
I know what a ancient egyptians or nubian really looks like.
I do not need a unknown or somebody that could say anything on the internet to tell me who really looked like who i get my info from books and real scholars.
That's why i do not come HERE that much anymore,i rather trust what i read from books,really good ones and really good scholars,AND that comes to my other point,i should have not open this thread,started out good,or good topic,but alot what have read from others misleads,and lies and half truths are told.
Nubians and most ancient egyptians look more alike then different ,but there were some differences on average too,like average head shape,skin tone etc.. anybody could see that.
I Hope i made myself clear,i am tired of repeating myself,and no need for me read anything else,because i am not going debate this issue. I am out of here. BYE.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
I came back to edit a few words and to not debate,but too late,anyway you get the point,like i said,i am not reading anything else in this thread,i have other things to do. BYE.
Posted by Confirming Truth (Member # 17678) on :
This thread is an epic fail. At no time did the Egyptians share a common name with Nubians, yet the author of this thread felt compelled to label both "African." The truth is the Egyptians saw themselves distinct to others.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
@ Rahotep101,
The belief that the KV35YL mummy represents Nefertiti is doubtful and inconclusive, And the similarity could well be explained by the consanguineous marriages among the Amarna royal family. Among AE Art, its clear the workmanship implements a sense of stylization to a certain degree. Your approach to singling out and regarding my portrayal as a stylized representation is questionable as my image is one of the many which is highly consistent with her other portrayals including the skeptical Berlin Bust housed at the Museum of Berlin.
Consistent portrayals of Nefertiti:
quote:
Your accounts on the relationships between Asiatics and AEgyptians can be explained by power, influence and empire trading. Why distinguish the members of the 18th dynasty? From the establishment of this civilization to its end, to its fall, the Ancient Egyptians has always had a greater affinity for other Africans than for Asiatics due to their heritage. This is testimony to accounts laid by the Ancient Egyptians themselves. Birds of a feather flock together my friend. It is natural to develop a fondness for a people you share the most commonality with. If anything, the concept of an African union as contemporary Africans understand the concept today was not as rudimentary as it was during the time of AE civilization. They could only develop a fondness to the other Africans of their world, The world that they can only understand at their time and not our current world.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101:
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Whats odd(or not) is that it looks like the Egyptians had a preferred style, a very thin Mustache..
Great note on the artistic convention of mustaches on the 4th dynastic statues. Alternatively to the custom, the statue of Rahotep held in the Cairo Museum has a thick mustache when compared with the other 4th dynastic statues of the old kingdom which bear a very thin painted mustache.
quote:Rahotep
quote:Some mustachioed statues of the 4th dynasty
What is also unusual is the mustache exhibited on Rahotep has a layering effect. When observing some other mustaches on the statues of the 4th dynasty in most cases a very thin line of black paint is rendered as a mustache in comparison to the laying effect Rahoteps mustache demonstrates.
This is true, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that degree of artistic conformity at this stage. It's hardly grounds for questioning authenticity, in my opinion. There's also the consideration that the Rahotep statue is of a slightly finer quality than the others, and more like a proper, recognizable portrait. It also has rock crystal eyes unlike many of the less elite statues.
quote:This is true, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that degree of artistic conformity at this stage.
Why?
quote:It's hardly grounds for questioning authenticity, in my opinion.
I hope my post never gave the impression of questioning the statues authenticity since i merely examined and expressed irregular artistic protocols one can grasp as unusual when comparing the statue of Rahotep with other mustached statues of the same period. Strange how you brought its authenticity to my attention. Makes me question your subconsciousness with respect to the statues.
