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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
What Latins like Luxurious thought of the Garamantes is below showing how European academics made up nonsense about white Garamantes and Gaitules


From a Professor John Sparks - EuroAmerican professor of classics - New York University wrote

an article on what "Was White Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" chapter in G.K. Bhambra, D. Orrells, T. Roynon, edd. African Athena: New Agendas epxected publishing date 1/15/2012


"Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls).
Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli
Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness (gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success."
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC



 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC


 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.

 -

BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people (ancestors of millions of African Americans) wearing their Fulani hairstyle and with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record. [Wink]

Neither do paintings of tribes of "peoples of the sea" i.e. Scythians and proto-Greeks, who mixed with them. They have nothing to do with the BERBER tribes mentioned by Byzantine and Arab writers. Neither do descendants of Vandals, Romans, Greeks, Scythians, Greco-Romans, European slaves, Turkoman, Turks (East Europeans), or Syrians.

 -

 -


If you are going to keep posting photos from the mathilda site you've gotta do better than that.lol!
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Good Question Dana, lets examine what the Egyptians and eventually the Lybians themselves represented..

Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..

 -

 -

Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos

 -

26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

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 -

 -

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Good Question Dana, lets examine what the Egyptians and eventually the Lybians themselves represented..

Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..

 -

 -

Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos

 -

26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

 -

 -

 -

 -

I've seen some of these paintings previously, but not all of them. Thanks for the extras. I didn't know the guy below was also a Libyan pharaoh.

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His name was Input II of the 25th dynasty
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]  -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC


 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.

 -

BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people with the paint wearing off and wearing their Fulani hairstyle with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record. [Wink]

the Libyans depicted in ancient Egyptian art are Fulani?
Dana, stop making up stuff.


 -

first King of Numidia
 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]  -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC


 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.

 -

BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people with the paint wearing off and wearing their Fulani hairstyle with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record. [Wink]

the Libyans depicted in ancient Egyptian art are Fulani?
Dana, stop making up stuff.


 -

first King of Numidia

Romans and GrecoRomans come from Rome, dimwitty.lol! This profile is identical to my Kabyle ex-husband from Souk Ahras where the Romans settled.

Naturally his grandfather told him they came in ancient times from Sicily. Just because a coin existed under Massinissa doesn't make him a picture of Massinissa.

YOU LOSE!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Now thats more like it.

 -
Looks more like a modern Tuareg than like a Roman portrait bust or coin. : )

Numidians came from the Gaitules, Masaesylli and Massyli otherwise called Sylli or Shluh.

Unfortunately, no one knows - since you posted it - if it is real or not.

Wow - look at those lips. [Wink]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
21st "Meshwesh" Lybian Dynasty..

quote:

Dynasty of Ancient Egypt 1069-945 BCE, 124 years, consisting of 7 kings, belonging to the Third Intermediate Period.
This dynasty was ruled from Tanis in Lower Egypt, but Egypt was effectively a divided country during this era.
The north was ruled by the kings, the Middle and Upper Egypt was under the effective control of the High Priests of Amon at Thebes. He was even the commander of the army of the whole country.
The dividing line between Tanite and Theban Egypt appears to have been at the site of Teudjoi, south of the entrance to the oasis of Fayoum.
The political fragmentation between north and south predates the dynasty, Egypt had been divided for along period during the reign of Ramses 11, the last king of the 20th Dynasty. His period had been one of hard civil wars between the king and the High Priest of Amon in Thebes.
Much of strength of the Theban office was established by chief general Herihor, while Piankh established a hereditary priestly and military dynasty. This regional dynasty would be replaced by the family of Osorkon the Elder, who was of Meshwesh Libyan origin. From this, would eventually emerge the 22nd Dynasty of the whole of Egypt.
Between the kings at Tanis and the effective rulers in Thebes, the situation was stable, without confrontations. As a matter of fact, Theban documents were dated according ot the kings of Tanis. There were close family links between Tanis and Thebes.
The links were so stong that in 959, the Theban high priest became king in Tanis: Psusennes 2. He is considered the last ruler of the 21st; the change into the 22nd Dynasty was undramatic, coming from his own family: Its 2nd ruler, Osorkon 1, was Psusennes 2's son.
There appears to have been a Libyan element in the ruling classes both in Thebes and Tanis. Eventually, with the next dynasty, the 22nd, the Libyans emerged as the rulers of Egypt.
Egypt of this time was largely a theocracy, and political power was vested in the god Amon himself. The kings of Tanis built an enormous temple dedicated to him, as well as large temples to other central Theban gods, where even the layout resembled that of the temples at Karnak. In the case of King Psusennes 1 he was also a high priest of Amon.
Royal burials of this period often reused artefacts of fresh graves, causing the available material limited for modern researchers. Yet, this is an indicator of relative poverty of the society, and perhaps even of weak social structures (lack of respect of the recently deceased). Perhaps because of impatience of the kings of a new capital,perhaps because of economic shortcomings, perhaps because of cultural and technological decline; Tanis was largely built from material taken from other sites, especially the town of Piramesse together with other sites in the Nile Delta.
On foreign fronts, the federation of the Philistines served as a buffer for the emerging kingdom of Israel. During the reign of Israeli king Solomon, Egypt chose diplomatic methods of keeping up good relations, marrying Egyptian princesses and offering territory as dowry. This indicates, more than anything, Egyptian economic and military weakness.

Smendes

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Sheshonq II

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Pseusennes I
 -
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Golden_Mask_of_Psusennes_I.jpg

Pinudjem I

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
AFricans and Europeans are two different people your Lyin_ess

 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
21st "Meshwesh" Lybian Dynasty..

quote:

Dynasty of Ancient Egypt 1069-945 BCE, 124 years, consisting of 7 kings, belonging to the Third Intermediate Period.
This dynasty was ruled from Tanis in Lower Egypt, but Egypt was effectively a divided country during this era.
The north was ruled by the kings, the Middle and Upper Egypt was under the effective control of the High Priests of Amon at Thebes. He was even the commander of the army of the whole country.
The dividing line between Tanite and Theban Egypt appears to have been at the site of Teudjoi, south of the entrance to the oasis of Fayoum.
The political fragmentation between north and south predates the dynasty, Egypt had been divided for along period during the reign of Ramses 11, the last king of the 20th Dynasty. His period had been one of hard civil wars between the king and the High Priest of Amon in Thebes.
Much of strength of the Theban office was established by chief general Herihor, while Piankh established a hereditary priestly and military dynasty. This regional dynasty would be replaced by the family of Osorkon the Elder, who was of Meshwesh Libyan origin. From this, would eventually emerge the 22nd Dynasty of the whole of Egypt.
Between the kings at Tanis and the effective rulers in Thebes, the situation was stable, without confrontations. As a matter of fact, Theban documents were dated according ot the kings of Tanis. There were close family links between Tanis and Thebes.
The links were so stong that in 959, the Theban high priest became king in Tanis: Psusennes 2. He is considered the last ruler of the 21st; the change into the 22nd Dynasty was undramatic, coming from his own family: Its 2nd ruler, Osorkon 1, was Psusennes 2's son.
There appears to have been a Libyan element in the ruling classes both in Thebes and Tanis. Eventually, with the next dynasty, the 22nd, the Libyans emerged as the rulers of Egypt.
Egypt of this time was largely a theocracy, and political power was vested in the god Amon himself. The kings of Tanis built an enormous temple dedicated to him, as well as large temples to other central Theban gods, where even the layout resembled that of the temples at Karnak. In the case of King Psusennes 1 he was also a high priest of Amon.
Royal burials of this period often reused artefacts of fresh graves, causing the available material limited for modern researchers. Yet, this is an indicator of relative poverty of the society, and perhaps even of weak social structures (lack of respect of the recently deceased). Perhaps because of impatience of the kings of a new capital,perhaps because of economic shortcomings, perhaps because of cultural and technological decline; Tanis was largely built from material taken from other sites, especially the town of Piramesse together with other sites in the Nile Delta.
On foreign fronts, the federation of the Philistines served as a buffer for the emerging kingdom of Israel. During the reign of Israeli king Solomon, Egypt chose diplomatic methods of keeping up good relations, marrying Egyptian princesses and offering territory as dowry. This indicates, more than anything, Egyptian economic and military weakness.

Smendes

 -


Sheshonq II

 -


/bodp.jpg[/IMG]

Note this Sheshonq face looks very much like a Fulani man. The name Meshwesh also written Mazauwaaza sounds like the modern Tuareg personal name Mazaouwazou.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Romans come from Rome dimwitty.lol! This is the profile of my Kabyle ex husband from Souk Ahras where the Romans settled.

Naturally his grandfather told him they came from Sicily. Just because a coin existed under Massinissa doesn't make him a Tuareg.

YOU LOSE!

did I say he was Tuareg?

dana your husband was Kabyle?

The Kabyle people are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber.

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.

The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North Africa is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.
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 -

^^^this is a Fulani? dana stop playin
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..


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 -

 -

The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen

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of Course Uan...

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 -

Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Romans come from Rome dimwitty.lol! This is the profile of my Kabyle ex husband from Souk Ahras where the Romans settled.

Naturally his grandfather told him they came from Sicily. Just because a coin existed under Massinissa doesn't make him a Tuareg.

YOU LOSE!

did I say he was Tuareg?

dana your husband was Kabyle?

The Kabyle people are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber.

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.

The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North Africa is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.
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 -

^^^this is a Fulani? dana stop playin

Why keep posting people who are descendants of Vandals, Greeks and Turks as much or more than they are Berber.

Shaouia and kabylia along the COAST OF ALGERIA are the homeland of the ancient Vandals, Greeks and people who intermarried Turks and other non-African people AS SHOWN BY ARCHEOLOGY and that is what the people are derived from as displayed in their modern Germanic and even East Asian phenotypes.

Algeria: A Country Study, which reads: “The Berbers are a composite people, presenting a broad range of physical types and the bond among various Berber groups is almost entirely a linguistic one."

Ancient History Sourcebook:
Procopius of Caesarea:
Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE

Ancient History Sourcebook:
Procopius of Caesarea:
Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
“Now the Vandals, dwelling about the Maeotic Lake [the Sea of Azov], since they were pressed by hunger, moved to the country of the Germans, who are now called Franks, and the river Rhine, associating with themselves the Alans, a Gothic people … Thus the Libyans were visited with every form of misfortune....And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people. "

No its important to distinguish between Tuareg and Fulani. Tuareg had their own braided hairstyles unlike the Vandal descendant you posted.

Nordic Vandals do not look like Africans wearing braids to me - Lyin_ass.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
What Latins like Luxurious thought of the Garamantes is below showing how European academics made up nonsense about white Garamantes and Gaitules


From a Professor John Sparks - EuroAmerican professor of classics - New York University wrote

an article on what "Was White Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" chapter in G.K. Bhambra, D. Orrells, T. Roynon, edd. African Athena: New Agendas epxected publishing date 1/15/2012


"Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls).
Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli
Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness (gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success."

Your source mentions Garamantes from the African INTERIOR.

And this is before the 16th century:

"The Tunisian traveler Ibn Battuta specified a boundary of the Black lands when he wrote "We then arrived at the town of Iwalatan... Iwalatan is the northernmost province of the Blacks."7 Iwalatan, presently Walata/Oualata near the southeast corner of Mauritania, sits near the southern limit of the Sahara desert. The lands north of that, which make up the main bulk of Berber territory, were not counted by Ibn Battuta as among the black lands.

In the course of his travels, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"At length we arrived among the Bardama. They are a Berber tribe.[...] The Bardama women are the most perfect in beauty, most remarkable in their appearance, of the purest white in their complexion and very fat."8

The writer al-'Umari counted even the southernmost Berber tribes as white:

"In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion .... They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna."9

Also the Greeks refered to some Libyan and Tunisian Berbers as "Leuco-Ethiopians"


I should mention as well that there is a historical tradition among muslims that Tariq the Berber general who led the Moors into Spain was from a familiy of fair haired Berbers.

This is from an Islamic site.

"Through Taariq Ibn Ziyaad, a Muslim state was established in Andalusia, known nowadays as Spain and Portugal. This state lasted for eight centuries. This great hero was not originally an Arab, rather he was one of the Berbers who lived in Morocco. Many of these Berbers embraced Islam, including `Abdullaah, the grandfather of Taariq.`Abdullaah is the first Arab Muslim name in his family but the rest of his grandfathers were Berbers who were distinctly tall and blond."
http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/tarekibnzeyad1.html

But even you if you doubt that Europeans crossed over from Iberia during the LGM. Or that a Back migration of Near Easterners entered North Africa from the East evern earlier, you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. And you can not say that Kabyles are not Berbers jsut becuase they have Vandal ancestry. That would be ridiculous since the intermixture with Vandals would have occured about 1500 years ago! Besides many other Berber tribes have similar traits.

The alternate scenario of so many European slaves being sent to live among rural Berber popluations is a hard sell. Records show most of the slaves went to the major urban centers.

"The historian Robert C. Davis has estimated that between 1530 and 1780 1-1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved in North Africa, principally in Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, with further captives in Istanbul and Salé." Ekin, Des (2006). The Stolen Village - Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates. OBrien.


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??

 -

The French put an end to much of the White slavery when they conquered the Maghreb in 1830!

And what did you say. The Egyptian depictions of Libyans are Fulanis???? [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..


 -

 -

 -

The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen

 -

of Course Uan...

 -

 -

Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.

on the contrary she or someone on that site would post them and then claim they were Eurasiatics who've mixed with Africans.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
What Latins like Luxurious thought of the Garamantes is below showing how European academics made up nonsense about white Garamantes and Gaitules


From a Professor John Sparks - EuroAmerican professor of classics - New York University wrote

an article on what "Was White Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" chapter in G.K. Bhambra, D. Orrells, T. Roynon, edd. African Athena: New Agendas epxected publishing date 1/15/2012


"Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls).
Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli
Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness (gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success."

Your source mentions Garamantes from the African INTERIOR.

And this is before the 16th century:

"The Tunisian traveler Ibn Battuta specified a boundary of the Black lands when he wrote "We then arrived at the town of Iwalatan... Iwalatan is the northernmost province of the Blacks."7 Iwalatan, presently Walata/Oualata near the southeast corner of Mauritania, sits near the southern limit of the Sahara desert. The lands north of that, which make up the main bulk of Berber territory, were not counted by Ibn Battuta as among the black lands.

In the course of his travels, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"At length we arrived among the Bardama. They are a Berber tribe.[...] The Bardama women are the most perfect in beauty, most remarkable in their appearance, of the purest white in their complexion and very fat."8

The writer al-'Umari counted even the southernmost Berber tribes as white:

"In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion .... They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna."9

Also the Greeks refered to some Libyan and Tunisian Berbers as "Leuco-Ethiopians"


I should mention as well that there is a historical tradition among muslims that Tariq the Berber general who led the Moors into Spain was from a familiy of fair haired Berbers.

This is from an Islamic site.

"Through Taariq Ibn Ziyaad, a Muslim state was established in Andalusia, known nowadays as Spain and Portugal. This state lasted for eight centuries. This great hero was not originally an Arab, rather he was one of the Berbers who lived in Morocco. Many of these Berbers embraced Islam, including `Abdullaah, the grandfather of Taariq.`Abdullaah is the first Arab Muslim name in his family but the rest of his grandfathers were Berbers who were distinctly tall and blond."
http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/tarekibnzeyad1.html

But even you if you doubt that Europeans crossed over from Iberia during the LGM. Or that a Back migration of Near Easterners entered North Africa from the East evern earlier, you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact.
The alternate scenario of so many European slaves being sent to live among rural Berber popluations is a hard sell. Records show most of the slaves went to the major urban centers.

"The historian Robert C. Davis has estimated that between 1530 and 1780 1-1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved in North Africa, principally in Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, with further captives in Istanbul and Salé." Ekin, Des (2006). The Stolen Village - Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates. OBrien.


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??

 -

The French put an end to much of the White slavery when they conquered the Maghreb in 1830!

Sorry but the term white is used only for Tuareg and related Fulani peoples in Africa. That is why Leo Africanus and others use it for the Sanhaja and Yantararas Tuareg.

THe term for your people was "red" in Africa as well as Arabia.

Funny you should post the picture of the Swedish Kabyle girl wearing the dress similar to modern Gereeks and people of the Balkans.

Vandals became quite numerous in North AFrica and Turks also settled in the same region that is why many of the Kabyle women look like Albanians, Swedes, and Central East Asians.

You said and I said, "Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact."

Try telling Lyin_ss that. IT IS MY EXACT POINT> LET VANDALS BE VANDALS AND BERBERS BE BERBERS!

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

Like I've said before Berber kabyles were not Vandals and Romans in Kabyles


 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle


[Roll Eyes] Keep trying to tell me these people came from the same Africans.

keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Dana who are these people, they look like Ethiopian/Amharas..??


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
AFricans and Europeans are two different people your Lyin_ess

 -


 
Posted by HorusNG (Member # 15917) on :
 
^^ Why don't you aks the Ethiopes themselves LOL [Big Grin]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Yes, Finally a Eurocentric sees the light, Unlike Mathilda the mother of the Copy-N-Paste Harlots and her fans who run like the wind from the Vandal/Roman/Byzantine impact on North Africans well before the Millions of European Slaves who came later on..

Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.

Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology

-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient
-Mediterranean and the Near East
-Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture
-Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance


"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond

The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."


North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius"
Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. And you can not say that Kabyles are not Berbers jsut becuase they have Vandal ancestry. That would be ridiculous since the intermixture with Vandals would have occured about 1500 years ago! Besides many other Berber tribes have similar traits.


 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]
"The Tunisian traveler Ibn Battuta specified a boundary of the Black lands when he wrote "We then arrived at the town of Iwalatan... Iwalatan is the northernmost province of the Blacks."7 Iwalatan, presently Walata/Oualata near the southeast corner of Mauritania, sits near the southern limit of the Sahara desert. The lands north of that, which make up the main bulk of Berber territory, were not counted by Ibn Battuta as among the black lands.

In the course of his travels, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"At length we arrived among the Bardama. They are a Berber tribe.[...] The Bardama women are the most perfect in beauty, most remarkable in their appearance, of the purest white in their complexion and very fat."8

The writer al-'Umari counted even the southernmost Berber tribes as white:

"In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion .... They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna."9

Also the Greeks refered to some Libyan and Tunisian Berbers as "Leuco-Ethiopians"


I should mention as well that there is a historical tradition among muslims that Tariq the Berber general who led the Moors into Spain was from a familiy of fair haired Berbers.

This is from an Islamic site.

"Through Taariq Ibn Ziyaad, a Muslim state was established in Andalusia, known nowadays as Spain and Portugal. This state lasted for eight centuries. This great hero was not originally an Arab, rather he was one of the Berbers who lived in Morocco. Many of these Berbers embraced Islam, including `Abdullaah, the grandfather of Taariq.`Abdullaah is the first Arab Muslim name in his family but the rest of his grandfathers were Berbers who were distinctly tall and blond."
http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/tarekibnzeyad1.html

But even you if you doubt that Europeans crossed over from Iberia during the LGM. Or that a Back migration of Near Easterners entered North Africa from the East evern earlier, you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. And you can not say that Kabyles are not Berbers jsut becuase they have Vandal ancestry. That would be ridiculous since the intermixture with Vandals would have occured about 1500 years ago! Besides many other Berber tribes have similar traits.

The alternate scenario of so many European slaves being sent to live among rural Berber popluations is a hard sell. Records show most of the slaves went to the major urban centers.

"The historian Robert C. Davis has estimated that between 1530 and 1780 1-1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved in North Africa, principally in Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, with further captives in Istanbul and Salé." Ekin, Des (2006). The Stolen Village - Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates. OBrien.


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??

 -

The French put an end to much of the White slavery when they conquered the Maghreb in 1830!

And what did you say. The Egyptian depictions of Libyans are Fulanis???? [Roll Eyes]

I have posted many pictures of the Auelamidden Tuareg and Yantaras Tuareg. Beautiful dark brown people even today.

They were also the Bardoa or Bardama of Western Maghreb and of Libya.

As I have started many times on this forum the term "white" or "abyad" was commonly used in Arabic for brown beautiful complexioned people NOT EUROPEAN- looking people who were called "red or "Ahmar" in color.


 -
"white" Lamtuna or Auelimmidden and Yantaras Tuareg occupy Niger

Lol! - i am with the early Libyan anthropologists who considered the white Ethiopians Africans who painted themselves white.

 -

Jebel Nafusa Berber woman

Tariq bin Ziyaad was a Nafzawa Berber like this woman. If he was blond that would be surprising since Zenata were dark brown (Tuareg - Iforas and near black (Zuwagha, Jarawa) and not TALL BLONDS like the Slavic slaves of the Arabs.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..




 -

The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen

 -

of Course Uan...

 -

 -

Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.

^^^ dana whose side are you on?

 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..






The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen




 -

 -

Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.

^^^ dana whose side are you on?

 -

Lol! Not the Roman one and Vandal or Turkish descended one. [Wink]

 -
Berber (non-vandal non-Greek-Roman, non-Turkish descended) woman of Kabylia [Wink]


 -
Fulani

 -
Bilen cushitic woman
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
The Ironic part is that despite the Eurocentics attempts to Equate the Berbers with Blond Fair Europeans, it was Europeans(Greeks and Romans) who equated the Berbers with the African/Dark Skinned race by calling the Moors I.E Blacks. Why would White people call other White people(Who are supposed to more fair in skin and hair than themselves) Moor:

North African, Berber," late 14c., from O.Fr. More, from M.L. Morus, from L. Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Gk. Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

The Eurocentrics lack the ability to think, they think that by Copy-N-Pasting their Eurocentic Apologizers will somehow impede the truth..

The So called LeukoEthiopians debunked..


PHny, Mela and Ptolemy all refer to the Leucaethiopes, but they give no
description of the people thus designated.
Pliny in his Lib. v. cap. 8, Hist. Natur.
writes : Interiori autem ambitu Africae ad meridiem versus superque Gaetulos, inter-
venientibus desertis, primi omnium Libyaegyptii, deinde Leucaethiopes habitant.

Pomponius Mela, Be situ orbis, Lib. i. cap. 4, is somewhat more explicit : At
super ea quae Libyco mari abluuntur, Libyes Aegypti sunt, et Leucoaethiopes, et natio
frequens multiplexque Gaetuli. For Mela the Leucaethiopes appear to be between
the Troglodytes and the Nile, scarcely in Western Africa.


Agathemenos retires again behind those convenient intervening deserts, and
merely says that west of Egypt are situated among other nations the Aeu/cat^toTj-es.
De geographia, Lib. ii. cap. 5

 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Sorry but the term white is used only for Tuareg and related Fulani peoples in Africa. That is why Leo Africanus and others use it for the Sanhaja and Yantararas Tuareg.

THe term for your people was "red" in Africa as well as Arabia.

Funny you should post the picture of the Swedish Kabyle girl wearing the dress similar to modern Gereeks and people of the Balkans.

Vandals became quite numerous in North AFrica and Turks also settled in the same region that is why many of the Kabyle women look like Albanians, Swedes, and Central East Asians.

You said and I said, "Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact."

Try telling Lyin_ss that. IT IS MY EXACT POINT> LET VANDALS BE VANDALS AND BERBERS BE BERBERS!

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

Like I've said before Berber kabyles were not Vandals and Romans in Kabyles


Keep trying to tell me these people came from the same Africans.

keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.


The Tuareg and Fulanis are not WHite. Ibn Battuta refered to himself as a "white" man and his use of the term clearly shows that he percived a psiological difference along racial lines. Observe.


"Travellers in this region needed neither money nor food for their trip. Instead, they carried slabs of salt, glass trinkets [beads] and perfumery, which they traded for their needs. The local blacks had millet porridge, chicken, milk, rice, flour and fonio to trade. Battuta warned that the rice was bad for white men, and wrote that the fonio was better.

Ten days from Walata, they reached the village of Zaghari, where black merchants called Wanjarata lived. There was also a community of white Muslim Kharrijite followers of the Ibadi called the Saghanagbu. Zaghari was tributary to Malli."

He finds the difference significant enough that he doesn't think they should eat the same foods.

And how did the Blonde Berber girl manage to preserve such European features down to this day, as if she has no Black admixture??

Face it the Vandals and others were asorbed by Berbers long ago, and today that is part of WHO THEY ARE.

And one thing that is hardly ever mentioned is, aside from the European slaves brought by the Barbary pirates, there was also many Black slave brought from the Southern Sahara. And this is where I believe is the origin of the Black Kabyles. Also these postcards prbably date no earlier than the 1880's. White slavery ended generations before that. So then I ask you what happend to all of these Black Kabyles?? Why don't we see them today?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


Algeria: A Country Study, which reads: “The Berbers are a composite people, presenting a broad range of physical types and the bond among various Berber groups is almost entirely a linguistic one."


dana let us know when you digest this statement

In many of these Berber regions, there is no historical record of human settlement. Nomads may have passed through these areas. They would not be described as Berbers until the formation of Berber as a language.
This began when people began to settle these areas permanently. Out of this the Berber identity, a composite people as you quoted above.

Afroasiatic branches are very ancient,possibly on the order of 8000-9000BP, the split from the common language from which modern Berber languages come may be as recent as 3000 BP, according to Naima Louali.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.

 -

South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Jari,

The Ironic part is that despite the Eurocentics attempts to Equate the Berbers with Blond Fair Europeans, it was Europeans(Greeks and Romans) who equated the Berbers with the African/Dark Skinned race by calling the Moors I.E Blacks. Why would White people call other White people(Who are supposed to more fair in skin and hair than themselves)

No I don't think many equate the Berbers with fair haired Europeans. We know that the blond types are a minority. The majority are swarthy Middle Eastern looking types. It's just that there is such a fascination with the fairer types and people love to fuss about their true origins.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Sorry but the term white is used only for Tuareg and related Fulani peoples in Africa. That is why Leo Africanus and others use it for the Sanhaja and Yantararas Tuareg.

THe term for your people was "red" in Africa as well as Arabia.

Funny you should post the picture of the Swedish Kabyle girl wearing the dress similar to modern Gereeks and people of the Balkans.

Vandals became quite numerous in North AFrica and Turks also settled in the same region that is why many of the Kabyle women look like Albanians, Swedes, and Central East Asians.

You said and I said, "Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact."

Try telling Lyin_ss that. IT IS MY EXACT POINT> LET VANDALS BE VANDALS AND BERBERS BE BERBERS!

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

Like I've said before Berber kabyles were not Vandals and Romans in Kabyles


Keep trying to tell me these people came from the same Africans.

keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.


The Tuareg and Fulanis are not WHite. Ibn Battuta refered to himself as "white" man and cleary his use of the term clearly shows that he percived a psiological difference along racial lines. Observe.


"Travellers in this region needed neither money nor food for their trip. Instead, they carried slabs of salt, glass trinkets [beads] and perfumery, which they traded for their needs. The local blacks had millet porridge, chicken, milk, rice, flour and fonio to trade. Battuta warned that the rice was bad for white men, and wrote that the fonio was better.

Ten days from Walata, they reached the village of Zaghari, where black merchants called Wanjarata lived. There was also a community of white Muslim Kharrijite followers of the Ibadi called the Saghanagbu. Zaghari was tributary to Malli."

He finds the difference significant enough that he doesn't think they should eat the same foods.

And how did the Blonde Berber girl manage to preserve such European features down to this day, as if she has no Black admixture??

Face it the Vandals and others were asorbed by Berbers long ago, and today that is part of WHO THEY ARE.

And one thing that is hardly ever mentioned is aside from the European slaves brought by the Barbary pirates, there was also many Black slave brought from the Southern Sahara. And this is where I believe is the origin of the Black Kabyles. Also these postcards prbably date no earlier than the 1880's. White slavery ended generations before that. So then I ask you what happend to all of these Black Kabyles?? Why don't we see them today.

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

[Confused] I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] @ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.


Berbers are a combination of
Vandals, Romans, Byzantines and Africans. That's who they are

Berbers by definition are a composite people defined by human settlement and the Berber language.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
No Mel7, YOU don't equate Berbers with Blonds, because you are a lot more open to other views and you don't deny the recent European Impact on the Berbers, However many, MANY people Equate the Berbers with Fair Skinned Europid types. Mathilda and her Harlots never represent the Black(Siwi, Taureg, Zenata, Masmuda, etc) Berbers. This is nothing but Eurocentric discrimination and hatred of Africans, even the Berbers.

The two top sites on a Google Search of "Berbers"

http://www.egyptorigins.org/berbers.htm

http://people.usd.edu/~clehmann/pir/berbers.htm

The Berber were fair skinned people, closer to Indo-Germanic than Semitic,
^^^^
This is what me and Dana are fighting, Fake, False, Eurocentric Lies and Propaganda.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] @ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.


Berbers are a combination of
Vandals, Romans, Byzantines and Africans. That's who they are

Berbers by definition are a composite people defined by human settlement and the Berber language.

Finally your repeating what I have been saying. Modern people who define themselves as Berbers are people derived from Vandals, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and the ORIGINAL BERBERS or Mauri i.e. the Africans - absolutely no question about that.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.

 -

South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.

Ibn Battuta wrote in 1330. Is that the 17th century?? Of course the Vandals and others had some impact on the Berbers. But think for a minute, could they possibly have caused such a drastic change in the Berber phenotype?? Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks?? Doubtful. Most of these Byzantines etc likely remained in the urban areas where they were converted and Arabized. Many Berbers have remained in the country and thus have been able to preserve some of their language and culture.

Do you really think people couldn't make it across the straits of Gilbratar before historic times. Important question.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
"There is little doubt that the whole of North Africa spoke Berber languages at one time while in the Middle Ages they occupied much of Spain and Sicily as well. But just as the dialects ARE MUTUALLY INCOMPREHENSIBLE so the people themselves ARE EXTREMELY HETEROGENEOUS: the existence of an ethnically defined unified people is no more demonstrable for the past than it is today. Indeed, there are a bewildering number of cultures, economies and physical characteristics."

Brett, M. & Fentress, E. (1997). The Berbers. Blackwell Publishers p. 3-4
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.

 -

South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.

Ibn Battuta wrote in 1330. Is that the 17th century?? Of course the Vandals and others had some impact on the Berbers. But think for a minute, could they possibly have caused such a drastic change in the Berber phenotype?? Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks?? Doubtful. Most of these Byzantines etc likely remained in the urban areas where they were converted and Arabized. Many Berbers have remained in the country and thus have been able to preserve some of their language and culture.

Do you really think people couldn't make it across the straits of Gilbratar before historic times. Important question.

There has been no change in phenotype Melchior most Berbers are still dark brown and near black in color which is how they are described before the 16th century while the descendants of Greeks and Vandals still look like what they look like - "not black like the Mauri" (per Procopius de Bello Vandalico. )

Now what?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

The Ironic part is that despite the Eurocentics attempts to Equate the Berbers with Blond Fair Europeans, it was Europeans(Greeks and Romans) who equated the Berbers with the African/Dark Skinned race by calling the Moors I.E Blacks. Why would White people call other White people(Who are supposed to more fair in skin and hair than themselves)

No I don't think many equate the Berbers with fair haired Europeans. We know that the blond types are a minority. The majority are swarthy Middle Eastern looking types. It's just that there is such a fascination with the fairer types and people love to fuss about their true origins.

Can you summaries the Hg-autosomals, found within Berbers of North Africa? Maternal and paternal?


Frigi et al.

Human Biology

August 2010 (82:4)

Discussion

In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.

"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana Marniche

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.


I do know that Tuaregs initailly lived further north and that theie current phenotype is believed to be due to recent admixture with Sub Saharan peoples. So maybe during the time of Africanus the ones he say were light skinned. reagrdless I'm not buying your attempt to tweak the meaning of the word White. Perhaps it minght be usueful to know what the Moor africanus looked like himself.

 -


Certianly with regard to his own light coloration, if indeed the picture is authentic, it would be asurd for him to call someone darker than himself, WHITE. If you akcnowledge that they were light skiined descentdants of Vandals or Byzantines roaming around, which apparently you do, then Leo Africanus had a pretty good point of reference on which to base his phenotypical descriptions.

So if the blond berber girl doesn't have any African mixture then this implies some kind of Aparthied among berbers down through the centuries? Is this what your implying. Yet their DNA clearly shows mixture. Hmmmmm.

"BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people"

They either did or didn't. In fact Eurasian mtDNA is so prevalent among Berbers it's one of their defining traits. [Big Grin] To screen out Berbers with Eurasian admixture would leave you with hardly anybody.

As we say on Topix, watchu gonna do??
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.

 -

South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.


And we don't even have to go back to the Pharaonic period to have intermixture with Greeks and sub-Saharans since the Greeks settled Libya in the period of the Ptolemys. As Herodotus pointed out Libya was the home of Libyan (Lubiyatta, Luwata), Greek and Scythic peoples and things.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.


I do know that Tuaregs initailly lived further north and that there current phenotype is believed to be due to recent admixture with Sub Saharan peoples. So maybe during the time of Africanus the ones he say were light skinned. reagrdless I'm not buying your attempt to tweak the meaning of the word White. Perhaps it minght be usueful to know what the Moor africanus looked like himself.

 -


Certianly with regard to his own light coloration,if indeed the picture is authentic it would be asurd for him to call someone darker than himself, WHITE. If you akcnowledge that they were light skiined descentdants of Vandals or Byzantines roaming around, which apparently you do, then Leo Africanus had a pretty good point of reference on which to base his phenotypical descriptions.

So if the blond berber girl doesn't have any African mixture then this implies some kind of Aparthied among berbers down through the centuries? Is this what your implying. Yet their DNA clearly shows mixture. Hmmmmm.

"BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people"

They either did or didn't. In fact Eurasian mtDNA is so prevalent among Berbers it's oneone of their defining triats. To screen out Berbers with Eurasian admixture would leave you with hardly anybody.

As we say on Topix, watchu gonna do??

I'm not tweaking anything Melchior i repeated what you said about the Tuareg people who are still called whites in parts of Africa just like the Fulani are called whites.

Don't put that on me.

BTW - nobody attributes the dark -skin of the Sanhaja or Tuareg to their coming south but white people like you who want to put themselves in their place.

Tuareg are an Afro-Asiatic people from East Africa who like AFro-Americans have absorbed some whites during their long stay along the coasts and inland regions of North Africa and nothing you EURONUTS write is going to change that. '


That's why these descendants of the Lam and Lamtuna or Sanhaja, Kutama, Luwata were called black for centuries by you came along.

"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then ..." 11th century A>D> Byzantine Arab Ibn Butlan of Iraq
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.


I do know that Tuaregs initailly lived further north and that there current phenotype is believed to be due to recent admixture with Sub Saharan peoples. So maybe during the time of Africanus the ones he say were light skinned. reagrdless I'm not buying your attempt to tweak the meaning of the word White. Perhaps it minght be usueful to know what the Moor africanus looked like himself.

 -


Certianly with regard to his own light coloration,if indeed the picture is authentic it would be asurd for him to call someone darker than himself, WHITE. If you akcnowledge that they were light skiined descentdants of Vandals or Byzantines roaming around, which apparently you do, then Leo Africanus had a pretty good point of reference on which to base his phenotypical descriptions.

So if the blond berber girl doesn't have any African mixture then this implies some kind of Aparthied among berbers down through the centuries? Is this what your implying. Yet their DNA clearly shows mixture. Hmmmmm.

"BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people"

They either did or didn't. In fact Eurasian mtDNA is so prevalent among Berbers it's oneone of their defining triats. To screen out Berbers with Eurasian admixture would leave you with hardly anybody.

As we say on Topix, watchu gonna do??

I'm not tweaking anything Melchior i repeated what you said about the Tuareg people who are still called whites in parts of Africa just like the Fulani are called whites.

Don't put that on me.

BTW - nobody attributes the dark -skin of the Sanhaja or Tuareg to their coming south but white people like you who want to put themselves in their place.

Tuareg are an Afro-Asiatic people from East Africa who like AFro-Americans have absorbed some whites during their long stay along the coasts and inland regions of North Africa and nothing you EURONUTS write is going to change that. '


That's why these descendants of the Lam and Lamtuna or Sanhaja, Kutama, Luwata were called black for centuries by you came along.

"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then ..." 11th century A>D> Byzantine Arab Ibn Butlan of Iraq

That is you who is calling Germanic-looking people in Africa Berbers and colonial Europeans not me. I actually call European descendants in Africa Berber speakers.

As shown by history, - the Arabs called Berbers blacks.

The Berber or Amazigh nationality has been adopted only recently by such people as look European in the past century and a half.

It was previously the name for the Tuareg and Masmuda or Shluh of the Upper Atlas.

Can't win can you.lol!

BTW - Moor did not mean any Muslim from Spain or North Africa. That is European colonial rhetoric, and your wishful thinking.

Why do you think "moro" the synonym for Negro among the Christian Spaniards? Why do you think Europeans invented the term tannimoor and white Moor. If Moor meant Muslim

Leo Africanus had nothing to do with the Moors of ancient North Africa, although he does look like he could have had some African blood. [Wink]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Bhutta was Arabized . You do realize the Elite inhabitants of Walata(Whom are supposed to be the Northern Most "Blacks) also described themselves as Bidan or white. Im not an Arab but accrding to Dana and Alwaad being white had nothing to do with being white in the modern Western sense in Arabic times.

I would love to get an original translation to see what word he used for Blacks. Blacks aka Bilad es Sudan did not describe all the blacks on planet Earth.

Isolated Berber Village of Tamegroute..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G13ginEFMvc

http://www.5min.com/Video/Visit-the-Pottery-Factory-in-Tamegroute-Morocco-516957189

As you can see Tamegroute(Morocco) is much further North than Oulata(Mauritania)

 -

But Im sure you will make a Case for Slavery for these Berbers.. [Roll Eyes]


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Ibn Battuta wrote in 1330. Is that the 17th century?? Of course the Vandals and others had some impact on the Berbers. But think for a minute, could they possibly have caused such a drastic change in the Berber phenotype?? Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks?? Doubtful. Most of these Byzantines etc likely remained in the urban areas where they were converted and Arabized. Many Berbers have remained in the country and thus have been able to preserve some of their language and culture.

Do you really think people couldn't make it across the straits of Gilbratar before historic times. Important question. [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

The Ironic part is that despite the Eurocentics attempts to Equate the Berbers with Blond Fair Europeans, it was Europeans(Greeks and Romans) who equated the Berbers with the African/Dark Skinned race by calling the Moors I.E Blacks. Why would White people call other White people(Who are supposed to more fair in skin and hair than themselves)

No I don't think many equate the Berbers with fair haired Europeans. We know that the blond types are a minority. The majority are swarthy Middle Eastern looking types. It's just that there is such a fascination with the fairer types and people love to fuss about their true origins.

Can you summaries the Hg-autosomals, found within Berbers of North Africa? Maternal and paternal?


Frigi et al.

Human Biology

August 2010 (82:4)

Discussion

In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.

"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."

Wow - I didn;'t notice the southern Tunisian part. Very interesting.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
LOL, is this supposed to be your end all proof of a White Berber..LOL

If this man were in America during Jim Crow he would be called a Mulatto and woulda sat his White ass in the back...

Looks no different than the modern Mulatto Berbers with Clear African Ancestry(From their Original Berber forefathers)..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

 -



 -  -

 -

 -

 -

 -


 -
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana Marniche

There has been no change in phenotype Melchior most Berbers are still dark brown and near black in color which is how they are described before the 16th century while the descendants of Greeks and Vandals still look like what they look like - "not black like the Mauri" (per Procopius de Bello Vandalico. )

Really?? I hope you know that the majority of Berbers live in the Northern most parts of North Africa.

 -

The majority are Eurasian looking. And I can post countless pictures which demonstrate this.
 -

On the other hand most of the pictures of dark skined Berbers are usually of folks who live deep in the Sahra like Tuareg, Siwa Berbers or Fulani etc.


If you don't mind I would ask you to take a look at this thread from Topix where debated this matter to infinity, and weigh in if you care to. I hate to have to keep bringing up the same material over and over again.
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TVT37FQA3VMA9AMGP/p676#lastPost
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human settlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

Lol! Your funny Svenska. Berbers today are Berbers but that doesn't have much to do with who was called Berber in the past now does it.

Berber was NEVER USED FOR VANDALS OR WHITE_SKINNED PEOPLE. PERIOD! PROVE TO ME THAT ONE SINGLE BERBER TRIBE WAS NOT DESCRIBED AS BLACK!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

There has been no change in phenotype Melchior most Berbers are still dark brown and near black in color which is how they are described before the 16th century while the descendants of Greeks and Vandals still look like what they look like - "not black like the Mauri" (per Procopius de Bello Vandalico. )

Really?? I hope you know that the majority of Berbers live in the Northern most parts of North Africa.

 -

The majority are Eurasian looking. And I can post countless pictures which demonstrate this.
 -

On the other hand most of the pictures of dark skined Berbers are usually of folks who live deep in the Sahra like Tuareg, Siwa Berbers or Fulani etc.


If you don't mind I would ask you to take a look at this thread from Topix where debated this matter to infinity, and weigh in if you care to. I hate to have to keep bringing up the same material over and over again.
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TVT37FQA3VMA9AMGP/p676#lastPost

YES - REALLY - MELCHIOR. Most Berber tribes including the descendants of the Masmuda, Zanata, Kitama, Sanhaja are still dark brown and near black in color. I am not including people who speak Berber and yet have know tribal affiliation such as many of the EURASIANS of North AFRICA!

There is no Berber tribe named Kabyle in ancient records now is there. Unless of course we want to consider them the Greek Cabali meantioned by Herodotus. [Roll Eyes]

one of teh reasons we know that a lot of the Berbers did mix with Europeans recently is because of rather large fair skinned tribes like the Ghomara of the northern Atlas who claim descent from a southern Atlas dark brown Masmuda invasion.

CAn't win, can you.

 -
Masmuda or Shluh Berber
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
You are such a sneaky Liar. If a Berber is Darker he is admixed with Blacks, but the Lighter Berbers are pure and isolated. The Berbers of the South cant be Isolated, they must surly be mixed with Negros, but the Norther Berbers are Isolated and unmixed.

Slavery only affects Dark North Africans, the Millions of White Slaves had no impact on North Africa,.. [Roll Eyes]


I already debunked your claims by showcasing the Berbers of Tamegroute who are majority blacks.

 -

 -

 -

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

There has been no change in phenotype Melchior most Berbers are still dark brown and near black in color which is how they are described before the 16th century while the descendants of Greeks and Vandals still look like what they look like - "not black like the Mauri" (per Procopius de Bello Vandalico. )

Really?? I hope you know that the majority of Berbers live in the Northern most parts of North Africa.

 -

The majority are Eurasian looking. And I can post countless pictures which demonstrate this.
 -

On the other hand most of the pictures of dark skined Berbers are usually of folks who live deep in the Sahra like Tuareg, Siwa Berbers or Fulani etc.


If you don't mind I would ask you to take a look at this thread from Topix where debated this matter to infinity, and weigh in if you care to. I hate to have to keep bringing up the same material over and over again.
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TVT37FQA3VMA9AMGP/p676#lastPost


 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

you are actually the clown and A NUT that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]


claim Banu Sulaym as my own what - nut!
JAHIZ WRITES "...all the peoples settled in the Harra, besides the Sulaim are black".


Just because the Banu Sulaym were described as black "as the lava of al Harra" doesn't mean I am claiming to be one of them.

Just because Chinese manuscripts say the Arabs coming from Arabia in the 8th century were "black men with high noses". Doesn't mean I am claiming them as "MY OWN" What the H are u trolling about!

NUT!

I have my own genealogy which I am proud of. [Big Grin]

Just because Sulaym and all of the tribe of the al Harra were black as lava and taking European slave women doesn't mean I am claiming them as one of my own.

DUMMY!

Just because Ibn Athir A KURD made up a folktale about the Sulaym Arab Sa'd al Aswad went to the prophet asking if he would be accepted into Heaven because of he is blackness and Athir explained that he was black because HE WAS A PURE ARAB. Don't tell me I am claiming them as my own -

WACKY!

Just because the BanuSulaymi said to the prophet. “I am afraid that if I see a Byzantine woman that I won’t be able to control myself” Byzantium Viewed by the Arabs (2004), Nadia al Cheikh (p. 124).

Don't BLAME ME!lol!
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
LOL, is this supposed to be your end all proof of a White Berber..LOL

If this man were in America during Jim Crow he would be called a Mulatto and woulda sat his White ass in the back...

Looks no different than the modern Mulatto Berbers with Clear African Ancestry(From their Original Berber forefathers)..




 -  -

 -

 -

 -

 -


 - [/QB][/QUOTE]
Disagree. Africanus looks like an Arab or Jew.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
[
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Though there's evidence for European (north Mediterranean)
immigrants to littoral N Africa in prehistoric times

 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago
_____________________________________________

^^^^ case was closed early on in this thread
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
there's evidence for European (north Mediterranean)
immigrants to littoral N Africa in prehistoric times

_____^^^^ dana, Jari, comments?

Yep - sure is. Which was absorbed into the African population as evidenced by the length of the Fulani hair even in prehistoric art.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -

^^^ this is Fool-ani hair ???
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
. Which was absorbed into the African population

dana, there was hardly anybody living in the mountainous scrappy poor quality land of littoral North Africa.

Africans knew better.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
 -
North African

 -
North African

North African
 -

Jew
 -

Arab
 -

Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

 -

Disagree. Africanus looks like an Arab or Jew. [/QB][/QUOTE]
^^^
BTW, that Photo is of a Portugese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians...
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana Marniche

BTW - nobody attributes the dark -skin of the Sanhaja or Tuareg to their coming south but white people like you who want to put themselves in their place.

Tuareg are an Afro-Asiatic people from East Africa who like AFro-Americans have absorbed some whites during their long stay along the coasts and inland regions of North Africa and nothing you EURONUTS write is going to change that. '


Tuaregs have been to known to take Black slaves. Observe:

"Tuareg to maintain their pastoral traditions.
Tuareg society distinguishes among nobles, vassals, and serfs. Slave-stealing expeditions have been abolished, but the black descendants of former slaves still perform the menial tasks. Social status is determined through matrilineal descent. Converted by the Arabs to Islam, the Tuareg have retained some of their older rites"
http://www.zyama.com/tuareg/index.htm
Is that made up?

Should I mention the racial situation with the white and Black Moors in Mauretania? Or should I save that for later?

And did you Leo Africanus was not a Moor? Dude was born in Granada for fcuks sake.
Leo Africanus, (c. 1494 – c. 1554?) (or al-Hasan ibn Muhammad al-Wazzan al-Fasi, Arabic:حسن ابن محمد الوزان الفاسي) was a Moorish diplomat and author who is best known for his book Descrittione dell’Africa (Description of Africa) describing the geography of North Africa. Most of what is known about his life is gathered from autobiographical notes in his own work. Leo Africanus was born in Granada in around 1494 but his family moved to Fez soon after his birth.[1][2][3] In Fez he studied at the University of Al Karaouine. As a young man he accompanied an uncle on a diplomatic mission to the Maghreb, reaching as far as the city of Timbuktu (c. 1510), then part of the Songhai Empire.

Do you just have tendency of usually being wrong, or are you just having a bad day??
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Romans come from Rome dimwitty.lol! This is the profile of my Kabyle ex husband from Souk Ahras where the Romans settled.

Naturally his grandfather told him they came from Sicily. Just because a coin existed under Massinissa doesn't make him a Tuareg.

YOU LOSE!

did I say he was Tuareg?

dana your husband was Kabyle?

The Kabyle people are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber.

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.

The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North Africa is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.
 -
 -

^^^this is a Fulani? dana stop playin


 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
 -

^^^ this is Fool-ani hair ???

Actually black African mummified hair doused in chemicals could have looked anyway before it was mummified as we know from chemical analysis.

BTW - You can always try some perm relaxer. Svenska to see what I mean, if you even know what that is. [Wink]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
 -

Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..



the man on the left?
what African features?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
 -

Much better..with color [Smile]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana

I have posted many pictures of the Auelamidden Tuareg and Yantaras Tuareg. Beautiful dark brown people even today.

They were also the Bardoa or Bardama of Western Maghreb and of Libya.

As I have started many times on this forum the term "white" or "abyad" was commonly used in Arabic for brown beautiful complexioned people NOT EUROPEAN- looking people who were called "red or "Ahmar" in color.


"white" Lamtuna or Auelimmidden and Yantaras Tuareg occupy Niger

Lol! - i am with the early Libyan anthropologists who considered the white Ethiopians Africans who painted themselves white.


Jebel Nafusa Berber woman

Tariq bin Ziyaad was a Nafzawa Berber like this woman. If he was blond that would be surprising since Zenata were dark brown (Tuareg - Iforas and near black (Zuwagha, Jarawa) and not TALL BLONDS like the Slavic slaves of the Arabs


Your tuaregs are obviously mixed.
Again the average genotype for Berbers is a mixed one with Eurasian portion being OLDER!

Oh so the Leuco Aetiopians painetd themselves White?? Lol!
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
 -


 -

it's not a fro darling

 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

______________________________________________________
 -

Tarim Mummy, Central Asia,
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:



You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?



Hey there "beja-girl", I do. I asked for it, but did not receive response?

Maybe you can summarize the list.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana

I have posted many pictures of the Auelamidden Tuareg and Yantaras Tuareg. Beautiful dark brown people even today.

They were also the Bardoa or Bardama of Western Maghreb and of Libya.

As I have started many times on this forum the term "white" or "abyad" was commonly used in Arabic for brown beautiful complexioned people NOT EUROPEAN- looking people who were called "red or "Ahmar" in color.


"white" Lamtuna or Auelimmidden and Yantaras Tuareg occupy Niger

Lol! - i am with the early Libyan anthropologists who considered the white Ethiopians Africans who painted themselves white.


Jebel Nafusa Berber woman

Tariq bin Ziyaad was a Nafzawa Berber like this woman. If he was blond that would be surprising since Zenata were dark brown (Tuareg - Iforas and near black (Zuwagha, Jarawa) and not TALL BLONDS like the Slavic slaves of the Arabs


Your tuaregs are obviously mixed.
Again the average genotype for Berbers is a mixed one with Eurasian portion being OLDER!

Oh so the Leuco Aetiopians painetd themselves White?? Lol!

Actually that is just what the Gsell or Gautier supposed. And I agree. The blacks who painted themselves white. What better way to describe them.

Yes the Tuaregs are mixed with whites while their vassal castes are also mixed with whites and blacks.

Eurasians are not Tuaregs just like Brace said "Cromagnons are not us..."

YOU LOSE!lol!
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
 -

Much better..with color [Smile]

You don't have any business posting black pictures on this forum KOLA NUT. If you are Beja ... that would be a real laugh.

‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56]
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
 -

Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..



the man on the left?
what African features?

"arabic-prince-in-middle-east"? Smh
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
 -

Much better..with color [Smile]

You don't have any business posting black pictures on this forum KOLA NUT. If you are Beja ... that would be a real laugh.

‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56]

Yeah im Beja too, which im proud of. The mummy=Not black.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -
 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
LOL, Typical Hypocrite, the Tauregs are mixed but the Lighter Arab Berbers are not mixed and Isolated.

No matter what or who is older the Berbers originate From east African populations..


quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."

"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....

http://www.marokko-info.nl/english/history-of-morocco


Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.

By Deborah Anne Kapchan

Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.


"not all of the black african population are gnawa."


Frigi et al.

Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.

The Leuko-Ethiopians topic debunked already for the 2nd time..

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:


The So called LeukoEthiopians debunked..


PHny, Mela and Ptolemy all refer to the Leucaethiopes, but they give no
description of the people thus designated.
Pliny in his Lib. v. cap. 8, Hist. Natur.
writes : Interiori autem ambitu Africae ad meridiem versus superque Gaetulos, inter-
venientibus desertis, primi omnium Libyaegyptii, deinde Leucaethiopes habitant.

Pomponius Mela, Be situ orbis, Lib. i. cap. 4, is somewhat more explicit : At
super ea quae Libyco mari abluuntur, Libyes Aegypti sunt, et Leucoaethiopes, et natio
frequens multiplexque Gaetuli. For Mela the Leucaethiopes appear to be between
the Troglodytes and the Nile, scarcely in Western Africa.


Agathemenos retires again behind those convenient intervening deserts, and
merely says that west of Egypt are situated among other nations the Aeu/cat^toTj-es.
De geographia, Lib. ii. cap. 5

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
[QB]
Your tuaregs are obviously mixed.
Again the average genotype for Berbers is a mixed one with Eurasian portion being OLDER!

Oh so the Leuco Aetiopians painetd themselves White?? Lol!


 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]
 
Posted by HorusNG (Member # 15917) on :
 
 -
Obsessed trolls. It only takes a couple of mixes.

You wish though!!! LOL [Big Grin]

[Smile]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

"some sources suggest...."

(yes, where are these sources? )

that "some"

I never denied .

However this "some" few are not "most"

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers.

thanks dane
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

From where did the slaves come? And what is the paternal genepool of Berbers, from where does this come?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
 -

"...the Arabs attribute fair skin to the slaves” 14th century(Ibn Manzur, Lisaan al-Arab, IV: 209, 210)

LOL! why does your image say most handsome arabic prince in middle east! hope that's not u who named your photo that.

Really need to stop getting your photographs off those sites. [Razz]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana

YES - REALLY - MELCHIOR. Most Berber tribes including the descendants of the Masmuda, Zanata, Kitama, Sanhaja are still dark brown and near black in color. I am not including people
who speak Berber and yet have know tribal affiliation such as many of the EURASIANS of North AFRICA!
There is no Berber tribe named Kabyle in ancient records now is there. Unless of course we want to consider them the Greek Cabali meantioned by Herodotus.one of teh reasons we know that a lot of the Berbers did mix with Europeans recently is because of rather large fair skinned tribes like the Ghomara of the northern Atlas who claim descent from a southern Atlas dark brown Masmuda
invasion.

CAn't win, can you.



The main reason why any of them would be Black is becuase of the influx of Blacks recruited by the Almoravids from the Mali, Senegal and thereabouts. That's documented. And girlfriend we know about the European slaves and where they went. Many were ransomed and returned to Europe. There were even captured Americans who lived to tell their story. I have yet to hear of large number of slaves taken to Berber villgaes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War.

And if here is something for you to ponder.

"The descendants of black Africans abducted into slavery now live in Mauritania as "black Moors" or haratin and partially still serve the "white Moors", or bidhan, as slaves.

The number of slaves in the country was not known exactly, but is was estimated to be up to 600,000 men, women and children, or 20% of the population [3][4] of 3,069,000 people. Even though slavery is illegal, sociologist Kevin Bales believes that Mauritania is the country with the largest proportion of its population in slavery."

How did this situation come about if the original Moors or Berbers were Blacks?

More..

"From the 3rd to 7th centuries, the migration of Berber tribes from North Africa displaced the Bafours, the original inhabitants of present-day Mauritania and the ancestors of the Soninke. Continued Arab-Berber migration drove indigenous black Africans south to the Senegal River or enslaved them. By 1076, Islamic warrior monks (Almoravid or Al Murabitun) completed the conquest of southern Mauritania, defeating the ancient Ghana empire. Over the next 500 years, Arabs overcame fierce Berber resistance to dominate Mauritania. The Mauritanian Thirty-Year War (1644-74) was the unsuccessful final Berber effort to repel the Maqil Arab invaders led by the Beni Hassan tribe. The descendants of Beni Hassan warriors became the upper stratum of Moorish society. Berbers retained influence by producing the majority of the region's Marabouts -- those who preserve and teach Islamic tradition. Hassaniya, a mainly oral, Berber-influenced Arabic dialect that derives its name from the Beni Hassan tribe, became the dominant language among the largely nomadic population. Aristocrat and servant castes developed, yielding "white" (aristocracy) and "black" Moors (the enslaved indigenous class). "
http://www.historyofnations.net/africa/mauritania.html.

Cap'n Marniche...I think your ship is sinking.. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ It was posted originally by Jari.

dana stop reading the image links, it's irrelevant,

thank you,

lioness productions
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
[QUOTE].

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:



You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?



Hey there "beja-girl", I do. I asked for it, but did not receive response?

Maybe you can summarize the list.

i want THAT clown to do it. Let see how smart she is.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
 -

Much better..with color [Smile]

You don't have any business posting black pictures on this forum KOLA NUT. If you are Beja ... that would be a real laugh.

‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56]

Yeah im Beja too, which im proud of. The mummy=Not black.
Well since you don't like the word black that is your problem but Beja are black to me, like other Sudanese that are darker than me.

It makes you more of a nut, than I thought you were.
LOL!

 -
True BEJA ARE WHITE!

HAPPY!?? [Roll Eyes]

HOW'S THAT FOR BEING A CLOWN. lol!
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:



You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right?



Hey there "beja-girl", I do. I asked for it, but did not receive response?

Maybe you can summarize the list.

i want THAT clown to do it. Let see how smart she is.
I have waited for it awhile now.

I hear stories of him calling; SOY Keita a pseudo intellectual?
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Nothing in this post dismisses anything i my post. The People in my pics wearing blue are Berbers not Gawna, the people being interviewed in the videos are Berbers not Gawna.

from Your own source..

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley.

As I said you can always count on you to attribute any blackness in North Africans to Slavery..
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
[QUOTE].

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]

Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.


BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.

NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
A Winter in Morocco. (1873)

Amelia Perrier

read chapter called "Slavery in Morocco"
p330-352


http://books.google.com/books?id=nwI6AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA330&lpg=PA330&dq=



quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
THE BERBER LANGUAGES ARE OF EUROPEAN ORIGIN

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.

Berber Languages

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html

Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).



..  -


 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]

What do you mean by "100% pure black"?
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

The Slavers...

 -

 -

Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's

 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
A Winter in Morocco. (1873)

Amelia Perrier

read chapter called "Slavery in Morocco"
p330-352


http://books.google.com/books?id=nwI6AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA330&lpg=PA330&dq=



quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
THE BERBER LANGUAGES ARE OF EUROPEAN ORIGIN

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.

Berber Languages

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html

Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).



..  -


In a 1902 book entitled, The Moors: A Comprehensive Description, in a chapter entitled "Slavery among the Moors" we read the following concerning the importation of women through Algiers and into Morocco:
"Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master… This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold....(Meakin, 1902, p. 137-138).


The white slave trade in North AFrica and the Maghreb continued well into the 20th century as indicated by the writings of eyewitnesses unlike what Melchior says.

It stopped in 1830? Nope - that's more wishful thinking.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Jari,

BTW, that Photo is of a Portugese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians.

Seriously we know that folks from North Africa did cross into Europe as we find evidence of Capsian culture in Spain Sicily. Likewise there was European megalitic culture on the North Afican coast. The thing is the tale of the tape show that coastal North Africa has been populated by Eurasians for at least 25,000 years coming from a back migration out of the Near East.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
 -

Much better..with color [Smile]

You don't have any business posting black pictures on this forum KOLA NUT. If you are Beja ... that would be a real laugh.

‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56]

Yeah im Beja too, which im proud of. The mummy=Not black.
Well since you don't like the word black that is your problem but Beja are black to me, like other Sudanese that are darker than me.

It makes you more of a nut, than I thought you were.
LOL!

 -
True BEJA ARE WHITE!

HAPPY!?? [Roll Eyes]

HOW'S THAT FOR BEING A CLOWN. lol!

The mummy i showed is a berber, not a Beja, clown.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
[QUOTE].

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]
Ok, thanks. [Wink]

So your anscentors moved to the Western part, from Northeast?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

BTW, that Photo is of a Portugese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians.

Seriously we know that folks from North Africa did cross into Europe as we find evidence of Capsian culture in Spain Sicily. Likewise there was European megalitic culture on the North Afican coast. The thing is the tale of the tape show that coastal North Africa has been populated by Eurasians for at least 25,000 years coming from a back migration out of the Near East.

MORE wishful thinking. In fact it was the other way around.

Black people of Europe came back.

 -
Spanish stone age rock art

 -
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
[QUOTE].

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]
Ok, thanks. [Wink]

So your anscentors moved to the Western part, from Northeast?

If you refer to the Arabs (obviously lol) and the Beja, Yes.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
dana, Jari, you calling Dr. Clyde Winters Euroecentric now in his view on Berbers?? !!!

he broke down the Euro language connect
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]

In not a implication, rather a suggestion.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]

Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.


BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.

NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!

You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ? [Roll Eyes]

I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]

Its not a matter of implication. Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).

They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.

Fair-skinned people have a gene pool that comes rather recently from Europe and were NOT CALLED BERBERS and only speak Berbers. PERIOD!

Masmuda occupied the coast of North Africa 100 0 years ago. That is what is fact, not implied. Not people that looked like Europeans.

“Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” Yaacov Lev, (1987). Army, regime, and society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365.

you can run but there is no where to hide.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

The Slavers...

 -

 -

Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's

 -

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]

Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.


BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.

NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!

You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ? [Roll Eyes]

I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.

From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come?

And how did they call Berber slaves?
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]

Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).

They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.

Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!

"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.

Lets talk about GENETICS, would ya?
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]

Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.


BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.

NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!

You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ? [Roll Eyes]

I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.

From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come?
Ask It the Clown [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]

Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).

They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.

Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!

"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.

Lets talk about GENETICS, would ya?

Are you going to post the gene pools?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Congradulations child of a hundred white slave women you are now officially Arab!

Why call that my theory when the Kurds and Iraqis knew what Sulaym looked like white woman.


: “These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their concubines from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim” 9th century Al Jahiz of Iraq

BOOOO YAH!

Blah Blah Blah.. Clown. Im the living proof of what you dislike the most. Im here to debunk all your fantasies.Clown.

Ps: i dont have any "bizantine" ancestry. You clyded that **** up!

Then you are definitely black, NUT. Congratulations!

"‘The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawd) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-humra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs.’"[apud Ibn Abi al Hadid, Sharh nahj al-balaghah, V:56] 10th century

 -

if my arabo-berber ancestors were blacks, my family would be like 100% pure blacks LMAO.. which is NOT the case.
Once again, you fail. [Big Grin]

Look here you little black nut there are no people I am talking about that are purely black. That is just your Sudanese Middle Eastern nutty talk.


BTW those Syrian, Turkish and Iranian descended people in the Near East calling themselves Arab call u ABID.

NOW WHO IS THE CLOWN!

You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ? [Roll Eyes]

I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown.

From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come?
Ask It the Clown [Big Grin]
I don't understand, can you eleborate?


Thanks.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:You are contradicting yourself now , Fool. Why would they call blacks "abeed", if the blacks were enslaving them ? [Roll Eyes]

I have nothing to do with Syrians , Turks and Iranians.. i dont live in the Middle East , clown. From my understanding abeed means slave? So from where did these slaves come from

Don't ask me why Iraqis and Syrians call black Arabs abeed today. I 'm not talking about centuries ago when Arabs called fair-skinned Syrians the slaves.

Don't confuse ancient Arabs with modern Syrians and Arabized people - dog of a clown.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Moroccan Sultans, Im sure they were Gawna Slaves as well..

 -

Tissint Berbers-Im sure they are Slaves as well..


 -


 -

 -

 -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JvfWW4c3ZM

The Gnawa are only 8& of Morocco
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

The Slavers...

 -

 -

Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's

 -

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.

Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology

-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient
-Mediterranean and the Near East
-Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture
-Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance


"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond

The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."


North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius"
Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Show me the documentation that the Tamegroute Berbers, the Taureg Berbers, etc are descended of African Slaves as you keep suggesting, Funny how you easily accept Black Berbers are being descendants of slaves but cant fathom White Berbers being descendants of slaves.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

 -

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?

 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Moroccan Sultans, Im sure they were Gawna Slaves as well..

 -

Tissint Berbers-Im sure they are Slaves as well..


 -


 -

 -

 -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JvfWW4c3ZM

The Gnawa are only 8& of Morocco

yes - they confuse the Masmuda Berbers with Gnawa all of the time. Because they are virtually the same color. BOTH WERE BLACK! As shown by all historical texts.

people who dress in inigo like the Masmuda are usually not anything but Berrbers.

I guess these Berbers or Masmuda will also be disavowing the northern Berbers like the Tuareg have recently done since Europeans are also trying to write them out of their heritage.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
 -
North African

 -
North African

North African

 -

Jew
 -

Arab
 -

Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

 -

Disagree. Africanus looks like an Arab or Jew.
^^^
BTW, that Photo is of a Portuguese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians... [/QB][/QUOTE]


The Portuguese took West African slaves to South Portugal. A lot of people in the Southern part of Portugal have West African ancestry. Beside that point, they did cross prior to that. I will post you a study.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]

Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).

They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.

Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!

"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.

Lets talk about GENETICS, would ya?

Are you going to post the gene pools?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_Near_East_and_North_Africa

 -

mtDNA
Total Eurasian lineages (H, HV, R0, J, T, U (without U6), K, N1, N2, X) : 50-90%
Total sub-Saharan lineages (L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5) : 3-45%
Total North African lineages (U6, M1) : 0-30%

NB : U6 has been in North Africa for more than 30,000 years old. U6 is of eurasian origin [Big Grin] and only common to Berbers
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -




The Slavers...

 -

 -

Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's

 -

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.

Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology

-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient
-Mediterranean and the Near East
-Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture
-Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance


"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond

The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."


North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius"
Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."

Actually this is incredible proof that I had not known existed. I was only going by what has been said about pottery and jewelry in Kabylia.

Will definitely need to check out this article thoroughly.

Thanks for your invaluable and well researched input. [Wink]
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

If the vandals and others outnumbered the Bebers as I believe you are implying, then Bebers today would proably be speaking some type of Germanic language or Greek. Don't you think? The Europeans were sparse and concentrated in a few towns along the coastal areas initially.
Dude Tamegroute is in SOUTHERN Morocco near the Draa valley. Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamegroute

Did you see that post about the Gnawa.

Historians believe that the Gnawa population originated from black West Africa - from Senegal to Chad and from Mali in the north to Nigeria in the south. Many of these enslaved people are thought to come from Old Ghana (a kingdom north of Mali) in the 11th through the 13th century. These enslaved groups were called “Gnawa.” There is also some historical evidence that a large enslaved population came from the great market of Djenne in Mali, and that Gnawi is a slight deformation of Jennawi. The term Gnawa is thus a color designation. It historically means “the black people.”..

Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

If this was a game of chess, you just gave up your queen. But since I know you're a good guy. I'm gonna let you take it back. [Wink]

Melchior - why are you trying to pretend or imply that the people of the Draa are mainly Gnawa when in fact they are mainly Berbers of Shluh and Zenata and Sanhadja stock.


Gnawa (Mandinke) are not Berbers. Not every Berber that is dark skinned is a Gnawa.

No you didn't understand. The implication is that most Blacks in Morocco are Gnawa or Harratin. The few indigenous Blacks are from the Draa valley and are not Gnawa.But they have been Berberized. I hope Jari reads this too.

Anyway I got to hit it and quit. I'll be back in the mornin' [Wink]

Black and near black people in Morocco are Berbers i.e. Masmuda Sanhaja or Shluh and Zanata and Sanhaja as well as Harratin (Ikaradan) and Gnawa and Moors (Trarza/hassaniyya).

They are of predominantly African or Afro-Arab descent.

Fair-skinned people come from Europe. PERIOD!

"Fair-Skinned" berbers i.e. most of the berbers are not from Europe. Berbers do not share similar genetic markers with the Europeans, you fail.Clown.

Lets talk about GENETICS, would ya?

Are you going to post the gene pools?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_Near_East_and_North_Africa

 -

mtDNA
Total Eurasian lineages (H, HV, R0, J, T, U (without U6), K, N1, N2, X) : 50-90%
Total sub-Saharan lineages (L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5) : 3-45%
Total North African lineages (U6, M1) : 0-30%

NB : U6 has been in North Africa for more than 30,000 years old. U6 is of eurasian origin [Big Grin] and only common to Berbers

U6, form my understanding is 9%, and is not in all Berbers.

But I am not aware of 30.000 Years? What does it comprise with?


I see, you changed the image, and replaced it with a wiki?

Can you summaries them one by one in percentage, so I have a better understanding? From a credible source?
Can you show me a credible source on genetics, instead of a wiki page?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE
 -
Leo Africanus is Andalusian

 -
North African

North African

 -

Jew
 -

Arab
 -

Naaw...The Man Looks like what he is a Mullatto/ North African. Denial of his African Features is madness..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

 -

Disagree. Africanus looks like an Arab or Jew. [/QUOTE]^^^
BTW, that Photo is of a Portuguese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians... [/QB][/QUOTE]


The Portuguese took West African slaves to South Portugal. A lot of people in the Southern part of Portugal have West African ancestry. Beside that point, they did cross prior to that. I will post you a study. [/QB][/QUOTE]
The first painting is Leo Africanus who was born in Andalusia the others are mulattos and Arabized people who may or may not have Berber, Arab or Jewish genes.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm

Berbers Y-DNA
BT* (african) 1
E* (african) 5
E1B1B (african) 70
J (eurasian) 10
R1 (eurasian) 10
LT (asian) 1
G (eurasian) 2
K* (asian) 1

CLOOOWNNNNNN, You've been cl-owned
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm

Berbers Y-DNA
BT* (african) 1
E* (african) 5
E1B1B (african) 70
J (eurasian) 10
R1 (eurasian) 10
LT (asian) 1
G (eurasian) 2
K* (asian) 1

CLOOOWNNNNNN, You've been cl-owned

Weird, because these numbers show different, somehow? How is that possible? Anyway, the Y-DNA shows more African. However, the question remains, where is the DNA from the South, "where they took slaves from" as is "suggest" by some scholars.


Anyway,


"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."

"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....

http://www.marokko-info.nl/english/history-of-morocco


The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African.

It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).

Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were called BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm

Berbers Y-DNA
BT* (african) 1
E* (african) 5
E1B1B (african) 70
J (eurasian) 10
R1 (eurasian) 10
LT (asian) 1
G (eurasian) 2
K* (asian) 1

CLOOOWNNNNNN, You've been cl-owned

Dog of a clown -
You and other black Africans are still black with all of your Eurasiatic mixture today.

"It is necessary also to distinguish between the medieval Hadareb (the Bellou) and their modern counterparts so unflatteringly described by 19th century visitors to the Sudan, mainly Arteiga, Ashraf and others, who by then were predominantly Beja by blood, but including also large numbers of half-caste Beja, the result of intermarriage with Turks, Egyptians, Circassians, Bosnians, etc...” (p. 64).

 -

I don't care how much red henna you Beja use in your usually woolly hair. [Eek!]

I prefer also not to confuse modern Berber-speakers a highly heterogeneous group with the less modified remnants of the Berbers.

 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
dana, Jari, you calling Dr. Clyde Winters Euroecentric now in his view on Berbers?? !!!

he broke down the Euro language connect

I don't rely on Dr. Winters for my scholarship LYING _ss. if you prefer to that's your choice. [Wink]
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Don't know if the traits are recessive or not.
Do know that sexual selection is accountable.

One of the colonialist accounts Dana alludes to:

"... the inhabitants have a quite different Mein and Aspect from their Neighbors.
For their Complections are so far from being swarthy, that They are fair and ruddy;
and Their Hair, which among the other
Kabyles, is of a dark Colour, is, with Them,
of a deep Yellow. These Circumstances, (notwithstanding they are
Mahometans,
and speak the common Language only of the
Kabylies) may induce us to take
Them, if not for the Tribe mentioned by
Procopius, yet at least for some Remnant
or other of the
Vandals, who notwithstanding they were dispossessed in His Time,
of these strong Holds, and dispersed among the
African Families, might have had
several Opportunities afterwards of collecting Themselves into Bodies, and reinstating
Themselves."


T. Shaw

Travels or Observations relating to
Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant

Oxford, 1738
p. 120

Shaw examples colonialist notice of fair/ruddy Kabylies
as a minority among the swarthy majority. But Procopius
cannot reckon for them because he located his whites in
the Sahara-Sahel not the Tell (~ Sahara-Mediterranean).
Shaw concludes on the likelyhood of Vandal remnants
married into African families and others marrying mostly
their own. Yet all of them are completely assimilated
as shown by language and religion of a kind loaded with
cultural accoutrements.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
... you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact.
How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??

 -

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

...

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

... keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the Kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.


 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Don't know if the traits are recessive or not.
Do know that sexual selection is accountable.

One of the colonialist accounts Dana alludes to:

"... the inhabitants have a quite different Mein and Aspect from their Neighbors.
For their Complections are so far from being swarthy, that They are fair and ruddy;
and Their Hair, which among the other
Kabyles, is of a dark Colour, is, with Them,
of a deep Yellow. These Circumstances, (notwithstanding they are
Mahometans,
and speak the common Language only of the
Kabylies) may induce us to take
Them, if not for the Tribe mentioned by
Procopius, yet at least for some Remnant
or other of the
Vandals, who notwithstanding they were dispossessed in His Time,
of these strong Holds, and dispersed among the
African Families, might have had
several Opportunities afterwards of collecting Themselves into Bodies, and reinstating
Themselves."


T. Shaw

Travels or Observations relating to
Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant

Oxford, 1738
p. 120

Shaw examples colonialist notice of fair/ruddy Kabylies
as a minority among the swarthy majority. But Procopius
cannot reckon for them because he located his whites in
the Sahara-Sahel not the Tell (~ Sahara-Mediterranean).
Shaw concludes on the likelyhood of Vandal remnants
married into African families and others marrying mostly
their own. Yet all of them are completely assimilated
as shown by language and religion of a kind loaded with
cultural accoutrements.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
... you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact.
How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??

 -

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

...

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

... keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the Kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.


The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.

These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Unfortunately my son is bugging me for his computer back so I will have to get off til tomorrow too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0&list=PL577E33CAD1FBD208&index=16

But I leave everyone for a nice video that people can ponder. It is clear why she had to disable comments.lol!
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Kokakola, are you gone too? [Eek!] [Wink]


Y'll be back in the mornin'?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Unfortunately my son is bugging me for his computer back so I will have to get off til tomorrow too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0&list=PL577E33CAD1FBD208&index=16

But I leave everyone for a nice video that people can ponder. It is clear why she had to disable comments.lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL8xa4UJcnA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBt1b-HXFlo
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm

Berbers Y-DNA
BT* (african) 1
E* (african) 5
E1B1B (african) 70
J (eurasian) 10
R1 (eurasian) 10
LT (asian) 1
G (eurasian) 2
K* (asian) 1

CLOOOWNNNNNN, You've been cl-owned

Weird, because these numbers show different, somehow? How is that possible? Anyway, the Y-DNA shows more African. However, the question remains, where is the DNA from the South, "where they took slaves from" as is "suggest" by some scholars.


Anyway,


"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."

"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....

http://www.marokko-info.nl/english/history-of-morocco


The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African.

It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).

Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.

There is more than 35,000 years, a wave of eurasians [cro magnons] entered in North Africa.
It believed they bring the mtDNA U marker over there. In Fact, it appears that U mutated to U6 in North Africa , there is 30,000 years ago.
Then a second wave (or more) of native african immigrants entered in North Africa from East Africa. (less than 20,000 years ago)
The two population mixed.

Phoenicians, Turks, Romans, Vandals invasions had almost no influence in the berber genetic pool.

MTDNA U6 which is ONLY common to berbers and to North Africa, is one of their oldest genetic marker, if not the oldest.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm

Berbers Y-DNA
BT* (african) 1
E* (african) 5
E1B1B (african) 70
J (eurasian) 10
R1 (eurasian) 10
LT (asian) 1
G (eurasian) 2
K* (asian) 1

CLOOOWNNNNNN, You've been cl-owned

Weird, because these numbers show different, somehow? How is that possible? Anyway, the Y-DNA shows more African. However, the question remains, where is the DNA from the South, "where they took slaves from" as is "suggest" by some scholars.


Anyway,


"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."

"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....

http://www.marokko-info.nl/english/history-of-morocco


The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African.

It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).

Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.

There is more than 35,000 years, a wave of eurasians [cro magnons] entered in North Africa.
It believed they bring the mtDNA U marker over there. In Fact, it appears that U mutated to U6 in North Africa , there is 30,000 years ago.
Then a second wave (or more) of native african immigrants entered in North Africa from East Africa. (less than 20,000 years ago)
The two population mixed.

Phoenicians, Turks, Romans, Vandals invasions had almost no influence in the berber genetic pool.

MTDNA U6 which is ONLY common to berbers and to North Africa, is one of their oldest genetic marker, if not the oldest.

Wow, really, can you show me more of this?

I like to see anthropological sources, of these cro magnons in North Africa.

And what caused this mutation of mtDNA U6?


So nobody lived in North Africa before 35.000 Years ago?


"Phoenicians, Turks, Romans, Vandals invasions". What is the genepool of these groups?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
^


E1b1b1b (M81)- 8 - 26.7%
E1b1b1a (M78)- 7 - 23.3%

J1 (M267)- 5 - 16.7%
R1b1b2 (M69)- 3 - 10%
K(xP)(M9)- 3 - 10%
I (M170)- 2 - 6.7%
E1a (M33)- 1 - 3.3%
P(xR1)- 1 - 3.3%"


Kokakola, why are in your post the Hg of sub Saharan Africans from the South missings?
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

BTW, that Photo is of a Portugese man...LOL. But lets keep it a secret...Im sure no Black African ever crossed into Spain only Blond Eurasians.

Seriously we know that folks from North Africa did cross into Europe as we find evidence of Capsian culture in Spain Sicily. Likewise there was European megalitic culture on the North Afican coast. The thing is the tale of the tape show that coastal North Africa has been populated by Eurasians for at least 25,000 years coming from a back migration out of the Near East.

MORE wishful thinking. In fact it was the other way around.

Black people of Europe came back.

 -
Spanish stone age rock art

 -

Dna,
I'm willing to be objective. Please provide the information on this... Website?
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

One last thing. We already pointed out the most of the slaves were sent to the major cities where Arab language and culture predominate. You realize that many Berbers live in rural viallges. Where is the documentation showing many of these European slaves were sent to Berber villages and became cultural Berbers?
You are aware that Berbers came down from the mountains to purchase their white concubines Melchior as is also documented.

north Africa was occupied by Masmuda and Zanata before 700 years ago two very black people refered to as "Aswad" black in Arab writings.

You can run but you can not hide.

“The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society(Robert Brown, p. 203)


That is where the fair-skinned Berber- SPEAKERS come from. Although they claim to come from the south.

Gene pools of slaves and mercenaries in North Africa is not going to say something about where the ancient Masmuda and Zanata who OCCUPIED THE COAST OF MOROCCO and were calle BLACK come from DUMMY!

Sticks and stones. [Big Grin]

Again I don't dispute that European slaves were brought to North Africa. But I doubt that most of these went to Berbers. The records show that they went to the cities. If you have documentation to prove otherwise, please post it.
I should point out that the highest frequencies of light hair and eyes are found among rural Berbers, not just Kabyle but Riffian, Chaoui etc, as opposed to the Arabized masses. Yet it would seem that it is the Arabized masses which asoorbed most of the foreign elements.

Also the studies have shown that much of the Eurasian Mtdna in North Africa dates back to the Ice Age. Can you possibly give me a reason why folks from Iberia couldn't have crossed into Africa at this time, other than the fact that fervenetly dislike the idea?

Furthermore it's intersting that an analysis of aborigine remains in the Canary I slands reveals the Guanche genetics to a great extent resemble that of North Africans with haplogroup E m81 being prevalent for males and U6 along with H and V in females. If the Guanche reached the Canaries in prehistoric times as is believed than H and V must have been in North Africa way before the Moors invaded Spain. Additionally many early accounts mention that some of the Guanche were fair with light hair, not unlike some berber tribes today. You would be very disingenous aand irresponsible to simply ignore this. The only way for you to maintain some credibility for your position is to shoot this down.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana

The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.

These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."


We need to clarify we we say darker ones are we talking about swarty Middle Eastern looking types

like this

 -

Or Blacks?

While you can certainly argue about the Kabyle asorbiong Vandals. What about the Chaoui?

 -

Shluh Berbers?

 -


Riffian?

 -

Mozabites?

 -

Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority. What do you suppose the orignal U6 carriers looked like coming out of the Near East?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
The Kabyle people (in Kabyle: Iqvayliyen) are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber.
In the late third century the Gaiserics, also known as the Vandals, a Germanic people and enemy of Rome, cornered in the Iberian(Spain) peninsula, had to find a place and an ally to escape the Roman chase through Gaul(France) and west-southwest. The snowy, cold and inaccessible highlands of Kabylia and its likewise enmity to Rome is thus a natural match. The population of the villages of the Highlands, also known as Djurdjura, suddenly doubled, as no less than 80 000 warriors with wives and children, i.e. families, filled the villages of Kabylia. Whereas the military forts were set on the lowers peaks closest to the sea, known as Lower Kabylia, around the modern Algerian province of Bejia (Vgayet in Kabyle), the residential regions were in the higher lands of the Dhurdjura, also known as Great Kabylia. Thus, began the dense population of Kabylia.
Just days away by horse from Carthage, the Vandal-Numidian coalition successfully evicted Rome from North Africa. While this alliance earned the Numidians the Barbarians (Berberes fr.), by extension from their new allies, it also created the largest clan in the region. Kabyles to whom the term was exclusively assigned amongst north-Africans are indeed the largest ethnic group in North Africa. The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North African is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books

_________________________________________________________

Obviously the larger population were Vandals. It was they who absorbed some of the indigenous African nomads in the area, these nomads becoming Berberized
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
lioness,

What's left out is that the Vandals were crushed by the Byzantines. many of their men died and many more were expulsed and forced to serve under the Byzantines. The remainder of Vandals fled and and joined with the Berbers. Here is the rest of the story.

"Byzantine Emperor Justinian I declared war, with the stated intention of restoring Hilderic to the Vandal throne. While an expedition was en route, a large part of the Vandal army and navy was led by Tzazo, Gelimer's brother, to Sardinia to deal with a rebellion. As a result, the armies of the Eastern Empire commanded by Belisarius were able to land unopposed 10 miles (16 km) from Carthage. Gelimer quickly assembled an army,[29] and met Belisarius at the Battle of Ad Decimum; the Vandals were winning the battle until Gelimer's brother Ammatas and nephew Gibamund fell in battle. Gelimer then lost heart and fled. Belisarius quickly took Carthage while the surviving Vandals fought on.[30]

On December 15, 533, Gelimer and Belisarius clashed again at the Battle of Tricamarum, some 20 miles (32 km) from Carthage. Again, the Vandals fought well but broke, this time when Gelimer's brother Tzazo fell in battle. Belisarius quickly advanced to Hippo, second city of the Vandal Kingdom, and in 534 Gelimer surrendered to the Roman conqueror, ending the Kingdom of the Vandals.

North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius.[31] The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia states that "Gelimer was honourably treated and received large estates in Galatia. He was also offered the rank of a patrician but had to refuse it because he was not willing to change his Arian faith".[27] In the words of historian Roger Collins: "The remaining Vandals were then shipped back to Constantinople to be absorbed into the imperial army. As a distinct ethnic unit they disappeared".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals

It is likely most women and children who mixed in with the Berbers. An interesting fact is while Eurasian mtDNA is dominant among the Kabyle J and U, the frequencies of European Y DNA is low.

Y-Dna haplogroups:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1b2)[9]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I,J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[10] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Neolithic origin.

MtDNA Haplogroups:
H (3.65%), U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (42%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).

As is the case with most Berber populations the majorty of males are E carriers. Looking at the tale of the tape, the Vandal input which I presume is R1 and MtDNA J?..comprises only a fraction of Kabyle DNA. Hence the Vandals could not have been a majority. Additionally a dominant group would impose their language and culture on the lesser group, not the other way around.

Elementary, my dear Watson..uh Lioness. [Smile]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
The name Berber appeared for the first time after the end of the Roman Empire.
The use of the term Berber spread in the period following the arrival of the Vandals during their major invasions. The history of a Roman consul in Africa made reference for the first time to the term "barbarian" to describe Numidia. They, along with the Greeks referred to every people they could not understand with the same unintelligible Berber language whether they were in the East or the West.
Muslim historians, some time after, also mentioned the Berbers. The English term is introduced in the 19th century, replacing earlier Barbary, as a loan from Arabic. Its ultimate etymological identity with barbarian is uncertain, but the Arabic word has clearly been treated as identical with Latin barbaria, Byzantine Greek βαρβαρία "land of barbarians" since the Middle Ages.

The Berbers have no unified history and have never experienced a unified political identity, which makes a review of the "history of the Berbers" somewhat problematic. There have been many strong Berber-led and Berber-populated kingdoms and cultures - often warring among themselves - existing in parallel in various regions of North Africa and Spain, but never a unified "Berber empire". Nor have these cultures used any written Berber language - there are almost no written records in Berber, except for short inscriptions on a few monuments and buildings.


______________________________________________

This is semantics. Some writers call whoever had been living in the region "Berbers"

"Berber" is comprised of various groups from coastal North Africa.

However people hadn't been permanently setteled in places like Kabylie.
Some indigenous Africans may have been passing through this poor quality land as nomads.
Some writers may call them "Berbers".

They are not Berbers until the Berber language and culture came about, later.

Who gets called "Berber" is somewhat arbitrary.

The people who call themselves Berber today are Berbers. It is defined by language and culture.

A better question would not get caught up in arguments about who should be called Berber and who should not.

A better question for the racially concerned is

>when did people with light skin and straight hair begin to settle in North Africa?

 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC


 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

_______________________________________________

these are Libyans. You can call them Berber if you want because like "black" there is not fixed definition of the word.

Are the the ancestors of the 6,000 year old mummy indigenous or not indigenous to Africa? It is not known.

The term "indigenous" can be used in different ways also.

In one sense it is "native American Indians" who are indigenous to America not the Europeans.

In another sense the American indians came over the bearing strait from Asia so they are not "indigenous"
 
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

As is the case with most Berber populations the majorty of males are E carriers. Looking at the tale of the tape, the Vandal input which I presume is R1 and MtDNA J?..comprises only a fraction of Kabyle DNA. Hence the Vandals could not have been a majority. Additionally a dominant group would impose their language and culture on the lesser group, not the other way around.

Elementary, my dear Watson..uh Lioness. [Smile]

If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Although the origin of the name "Tuareg" does not originate within the Berber group the Tuareg language is a southern Berber language having several dialects among the different regions. Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language closely related to Egyptian and Semitic-Canaanite languages.
The main Canaanite languages are Phoenician, Punic, Moabite, Edomite, Hebrew and Ammonite. Initially all these were written in Phoenician script.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Let the White Wash of the Berbers stop!!

Tissint Berbers

 -

Tamegroute/Zarogoza Berbers

 -
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Let the White Wash of the Berbers stop!!

Tissint Berbers

 -

Tamegroute/Zarogoza Berbers

 -

Dude those are Berbers in Southern Morocco. Most Berbers live in the coastal areas and are Eurasian looking. Scroll up.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"

Did I say some were real and others fake? Or am I saying some are the minority and others are the majority? Why do you want to read in that kind of ish in what I'm saying? Berber is just a culture not a race.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
I have never said this or that is a "Real Berber" I have always maintained a position by the Berbers themselves that they are a Diverse Group of Black and White peoples. Berber is a Language that originated in East Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"


 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[qb] I have never said this or that is a "Real Berber" I have always maintained a position by the Berbers themselves that they are a Diverse Group of Black and White peoples. Berber is a Language that originated in East Africa.


Yes there are Black Berbers.

I thought she was talking to me?
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
What does this have to do with Anything, Did your clown ass not say Southern Mauritania is where the Negros only managed to live??

BTW, The Berbers of Tissint are NOT Southern Morrocan. Your Racist Failed attept to dismiss the Black Berbers off as Slaves fails.

I will continue to Smack your ass with Truth.
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Let the White Wash of the Berbers stop!!

Tissint Berbers

 -

Tamegroute/Zarogoza Berbers

 -

Dude those are Berbers in Southern Morocco. Most Berbers live in the coastal areas and are Eurasian looking. Scroll up.

 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
If Berber is not a race and you "Claim" to recognize Black Berbers then why do you dismiss Black Berbers off as the Result of Slavery yet fight tooth and nail to deny that White Berbers are the result of Millions of White European Slaves bought to North Africa??

Why do you copy n paste Eurocentric propaganda claiming Berbers drove "Black Africans" or Enslaved "Black Africans" this and that when many Berbers are black themselves.

Lets the lies stop!!

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"

Did I say some were real and others fake? Or am I saying some are the minority and others are the majority? Why do you want to read in that kind of ish in what I'm saying? Berber is just a culture not a race.

 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana

The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.

These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."


We need to clarify we we say darker ones are we talking about swarty Middle Eastern looking types

like this


Or Blacks?

While you can certainly argue about the Kabyle asorbiong Vandals. What about the Chaoui?



 -


Riffian?

 -

Mozabites?

 -

Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority. What do you suppose the orignal U6 carriers looked like coming out of the Near East?

Melchior - I have asked you to name which Berber tribe was fiar-in color instead you go thru all of these meanderings with dna and ignoring historical facts about where teh Vandals and Romans and slaves lived. Berber-speakers speak berber and we have already noted that they are a very heterogeneous people as far as dna is concerned and even their dialects are not understood amongst the different groups.

There were different inhabitants of the Gaunches including ones with tropical traits - the early ones, then there were phoenicians and Spaniards or Iberians, finally other late comers often described as fair and blond and having nothing to do with Phoenicians nor earlier Gaunches. By the Midieval period some Gaunches are still dark -skinned or "'The Guanches in the south of Tenerife were said to have been dark-skinned, while those in the north considerably paler" neither were probably related to the original Gaunches. You might want to view the url below to see some of my findings on the matter of Gaunches.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006469

Naturally the mtdna of European and Eurasiatic women wherever they live dates back to the ice age.

Middle Eastern people are the ones that called Berbers black - Melchior. Thus why should anyone believe they looked "Middle Eastern" or "Near Eastern". I already said this many times but, here again is what I mean when I say darker when I speak of recent kabyle peoples, but it is probably still not as black as the Berbers were originally, because those women are obviously mixed with non-Africans too!

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle horseman

 -
Kabyle girls

Think logically Melchior - why should there be two Riff peoples, two kabyle people, two Shluh peoples that developed two different colors, one near black and one near white in the same environment and locales.

"In the southeast of Kabyle country live the Chaouia of the Aurès..."

Persians settled in the Mzab with the Berbers who were called Lam and Matmata i.e. Tuareg. Why do some of these people still claim persian descent.

Which tribe called Berber was not described as black. I wish you people would please stop the nonsense [Roll Eyes] . Which

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
"What does this have to do with Anything, Did your clown ass not say Southern Mauritania is where the Negros only managed to live??
BTW, The Berbers of Tissint are NOT Southern Morrocan. Your Racist Failed attept to dismiss the Black Berbers off as Slaves fails.

I will continue to Smack your ass with Truth."


If Truth is really on your side, then why are you so upset?? I didn't say "Southern Mauritania is where negros managed to live". Ibn Battuta said that as you progress southward somewhere in Mauritnaia is where the "land of Blacks" begins. Another article calimed that there were indigenous Blacks in Southern Morocco in the Draa valley.

And Tissint is in Southern Morocco
http://www.maplandia.com/morocco/sud/tata/tissint/
Sorry.

Near the Draa valley even... [Big Grin]
http://www.itineranceplus.com/english/culturalmemo2.asp?culturalID=46

I don't care whether the Black Berbers were slaves or not. I'm arguing about how long Eurasians have been in North Africa. One thing you all need to consider is that the so called continent of Africa is a made up region. The Black race does not magically end or begin at it's borders. The transition to Eurasian actually occurs within Africa as you cross the Sahara into North Africa. There have been documented records of Eurasians in North Africa since the Egyptians wrote about the Libyans etc. It is what it is.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Let the White Wash of the Berbers stop..Black Berbers a Minority..??

Siwa Berbers

 -

 -

 -

 -


 -


 -


 -


Minority in Siwa..

 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana

The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.

These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."


We need to clarify we we say darker ones are we talking about swarty Middle Eastern looking types

like this

 -

Or Blacks?

While you can certainly argue about the Kabyle asorbiong Vandals. What about the Chaoui?

 -

Shluh Berbers?

 -


Riffian?

 -

Mozabites?

 -

Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority. What do you suppose the orignal U6 carriers looked like coming out of the Near East?

1). I subtracted that quote from a larger text you quote.

2). Swarty is Yiddish, and it means black.


So, actually you wrote, black or black? lol


It's a good question, what did the U6 carriers look like in the early stage. We should not forget that U6 evolved in North Africa. The question is however, how did these females got to North Africa?
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
jari,

You can tell that many of the Siwa are mixed. And I posted something on the Siwa on another thread I think, perhaps you have seen it. Anyway, let's do the math, there are onlay about 20,000 Siwa speakers compared to about 5 million Kabyle speakers? Watcha gonna do?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

You can tell that many of the Siwa are mixed. And I posted something on the Siwa on another thread I think, perhaps you have seen it. Anyway, let's do the math, there are onlay about 20,000 Siwa speakers compared to about 5 million Kabyle speakers? Watcha gonna do?

How large was the ancient population of North Africa?

There are more people who speak English outside of England than in England itself. How come?

Then again, you see SOY Keita as a psuedo intellectual. No wonder.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Im not upset, because Truth is on my side. The Black Berbers represent an authentic Berber branch. Your lies and spin tactics don't bother me, I will continue to slap you down with the Truth everytime.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
There have been documented records of Eurasians in North Africa since the Egyptians wrote about the Libyans etc. It is what it is.

How the Lybians were Depicted by themselves and Egyptians

Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..

 -

 -

Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos

 -

26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

 -

 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

You can tell that many of the Siwa are mixed. And I posted something on the Siwa on another thread I think, perhaps you have seen it. Anyway, let's do the math, there are onlay about 20,000 Siwa speakers compared to about 5 million Kabyle speakers? Watcha gonna do?

What tribe do these fair-skinned Kabyle claim to belong to Melchior. Is it the black Kitama of Ibn Butlan dwelling in the Aures or the near black Sanhaja still known under there same names.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana

The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.

These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."


We need to clarify we we say darker ones are we talking about swarty Middle Eastern looking types

like this


Or Blacks?

While you can certainly argue about the Kabyle asorbiong Vandals. What about the Chaoui?



 -


Riffian?

 -

Mozabites?

 -

Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority. What do you suppose the orignal U6 carriers looked like coming out of the Near East?

Melchior - I have asked you to name which Berber tribe was fiar-in color instead you go thru all of these meanderings with dna and ignoring historical facts about where teh Vandals and Romans and slaves lived. Berber-speakers speak berber and we have already noted that they are a very heterogeneous people as far as dna is concerned and even their dialects are not understood amongst the different groups.

There were different inhabitants of the Gaunches including ones with tropical traits - the early ones, then there were phoenicians and Spaniards or Iberians, finally other late comers often described as fair and blond and having nothing to do with Phoenicians nor earlier Gaunches. By the Midieval period some Gaunches are still dark -skinned or "'The Guanches in the south of Tenerife were said to have been dark-skinned, while those in the north considerably paler" neither were probably related to the original Gaunches. You might want to view the url below to see some of my findings on the matter of Gaunches.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006469

Naturally the mtdna of European and Eurasiatic women wherever they live dates back to the ice age.

Middle Eastern people are the ones that called Berbers black - Melchior. Thus why should anyone believe they looked "Middle Eastern" or "Near Eastern". I already said this many times but, here again is what I mean when I say darker when I speak of recent kabyle peoples, but it is probably still not as black as the Berbers were originally, because those women are obviously mixed with non-Africans too!

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle

 -
Kabyle horseman

 -
Kabyle girls

Think logically Melchior - why should there be two Riff peoples, two kabyle people, two Shluh peoples that developed two different colors, one near black and one near white in the same environment and locales.

"In the southeast of Kabyle country live the Chaouia of the Aurès..."

Persians settled in the Mzab with the Berbers who were called Lam and Matmata i.e. Tuareg. Why do some of these people still claim persian descent.

Which tribe called Berber was not described as black. I wish you people would please stop the nonsense [Roll Eyes] . Which

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
 -

Bulgarian women of the Balkans

 -
Kabyle

i don't see why people can't celebrate their multicultural heritage. [Confused]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians (you forgot Phoenicians) are non-Africans that settled in North Africa many centuries prior to the 16th.
So you just played yourself sweetie
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians (you forgot Phoenicians) are non-Africans that settled in North Africa many centuries prior to the 16th.
So you just played yourself sweetie

They are non-Africans but you probably couldn't tell the difference now could you. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana

Melchior - I have asked you to name which Berber tribe was fiar-in color instead you go thru all of these meanderings with dna and ignoring historical facts about where teh Vandals and Romans and slaves lived. Berber-speakers speak berber and we have already noted that they are a very heterogeneous people as far as dna is concerned and even their dialects are not understood amongst the different groups.

I have show tribes that are fair in color. Basically the closer to the coat they are the fairer they will be and the further south the swarthier.


There were different inhabitants of the Gaunches including ones with tropical traits - the early ones, then there were phoenicians and Spaniards or Iberians, finally other late comers often described as fair and blond and having nothing to do with Phoenicians nor earlier Gaunches. By the Midieval period some Gaunches are still dark -skinned or "'The Guanches in the south of Tenerife were said to have been dark-skinned, while those in the north considerably paler" neither were probably related to the original Gaunches. You might want to view the url below to see some of my findings on the matter of Gaunches.

Here is quote from your writings on the matter.

"From what I understand the earliest Gaunches and their society are not closely related to modern Gaunches who are basically fair-skinned and related to today's North West Africans."

What modern Guanches? They are extinct. The notion of light skinned Guanche came from early discriptions, not descriptions of anyone modern.

Also:

"The idea of some ancient white or fair-skinned race of stone age Gaunches and North Africans comes from the unwarranted or misguided notion that early dolichocephalic Cro-Magnons and their descendants in Europe and North Africa were European-looking or ancestral to modern Europeans".

Nope, again it comes from old descriptions.


Naturally the mtdna of European and Eurasiatic women wherever they live dates back to the ice age.

Middle Eastern people are the ones that called Berbers black - Melchior. Thus why should anyone believe they looked "Middle Eastern" or "Near Eastern". I already said this many times but, here again is what I mean when I say darker when I speak of recent kabyle peoples, but it is probably still not as black as the Berbers were originally, because those women are obviously mixed with non-Africans too!


That some Middle Easterners described some Berber tribes as dark or Black ca not possibly settle this matter since we know Arabs and Morrs like Ibn Battuta describes others as being light skinned. We have Greeks vouching for light skinned Berbers not to mention Roman mosaics and other ancient depictions. At best we would have to agree that there were both light and dark Berbers going back at least to early history.

Do you deny that Europeans reached North Africa in prehistoric times. Yes or no? No bobbing or weaving.


Think logically Melchior - why should there be two Riff peoples, two kabyle people, two Shluh peoples that developed two different colors, one near black and one near white in the same environment and locales.

And the leave of us with the still unaswerred question which one came first. If your position is that white tribes are the result of Euroepan slavery I am still waiting for solid facts to make your case for as I have said. Most records indicate that European slaves went to the major cities. We even have eye witness accounts of escapees.

"'When we had arrived [in Cork], I made a request to Lord Inchaquoin to give me a passport for England. I took boat to Youghal and then embarked on the vessel John Filmer, which set sail with 120 passengers. `But before we had lost sight of land, we were captured by Algerine pirates, who put all the men in irons.'

...the corsairs plundered British shipping pretty much at will...
So wrote the Reverend Devereux Spratt - carried off in April 1641 for several years' bondage in Algiers, while attempting a simple voyage across the Irish Sea from County Cork to England. Spratt's experience has been largely forgotten now, though it was far from unique in his day."

Slaves in Barbary fell into two broad categories. The 'public slaves' belonged to the ruling pasha, who by right of rulership could claim an eighth of all Christians captured by the corsairs, and buy all the others he wanted at reduced prices. These slaves were housed in large prisons known as baños (baths), often in wretchedly overcrowded conditions. They were mostly used to row the corsair galleys in the pursuit of loot (and more slaves) - work so strenuous that thousands died or went mad while chained to the oar.

During the winter these galeotti worked on state projects - quarrying stone, building walls or harbour facilities, felling timber and constructing new galleys. Each day they would be given perhaps two or three loaves of black bread - 'that the dogs themselves wouldn't eat' - and limited water; they received one change of clothing every year. Those who collapsed on the job from exhaustion or malnutrition were typically beaten until they got up and went back to work. The pasha also bought most female captives, some of whom were taken into his harem, where they lived out their days in captivity. The majority, however, were purchased for their ransom value; while awaiting their release, they worked in the palace as harem attendants."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml


As you would expect it was the affluent pashas who would buy up most of the European females for their harems and banios. Therefore you should expect to find the descendants of these slaves in the major cities. Your scenario would have MORE European slaves being sent to Berber villages. Where is the logic in that, and where is the historical documentation??
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana

Melchior - I have asked you to name which Berber tribe was fiar-in color instead you go thru all of these meanderings with dna and ignoring historical facts about where teh Vandals and Romans and slaves lived. Berber-speakers speak berber and we have already noted that they are a very heterogeneous people as far as dna is concerned and even their dialects are not understood amongst the different groups.

I have show tribes that are fair in color. Basically the closer to the coat they are the fairer they will be and the further south the swarthier.


There were different inhabitants of the Gaunches including ones with tropical traits - the early ones, then there were phoenicians and Spaniards or Iberians, finally other late comers often described as fair and blond and having nothing to do with Phoenicians nor earlier Gaunches. By the Midieval period some Gaunches are still dark -skinned or "'The Guanches in the south of Tenerife were said to have been dark-skinned, while those in the north considerably paler" neither were probably related to the original Gaunches. You might want to view the url below to see some of my findings on the matter of Gaunches.

Here is quote from your writings on the matter.

"From what I understand the earliest Gaunches and their society are not closely related to modern Gaunches who are basically fair-skinned and related to today's North West Africans."

What modern Guanches? They are extinct. The notion of light skinned Guanche came from early discriptions, not descriptions of anyone modern.

Also:

"The idea of some ancient white or fair-skinned race of stone age Gaunches and North Africans comes from the unwarranted or misguided notion that early dolichocephalic Cro-Magnons and their descendants in Europe and North Africa were European-looking or ancestral to modern Europeans".

Nope, again it comes from old descriptions.


Naturally the mtdna of European and Eurasiatic women wherever they live dates back to the ice age.

Middle Eastern people are the ones that called Berbers black - Melchior. Thus why should anyone believe they looked "Middle Eastern" or "Near Eastern". I already said this many times but, here again is what I mean when I say darker when I speak of recent kabyle peoples, but it is probably still not as black as the Berbers were originally, because those women are obviously mixed with non-Africans too!


That some Middle Easterners described some Berber tribes as dark or Black ca not possibly settle this matter since we know Arabs and Morrs like Ibn Battuta describes others as being light skinned. We have Greeks vouching for light skinned Berbers not to mention Roman mosaics and other ancient depictions. At best we would have to agree that there were both light and dark Berbers going back at least to early history.

Do you deny that Europeans reached North Africa in prehistoric times. Yes or no? No bobbing or weaving.


Think logically Melchior - why should there be two Riff peoples, two kabyle people, two Shluh peoples that developed two different colors, one near black and one near white in the same environment and locales.

And the leave of us with the still unaswerred question which one came first. If your position is that white tribes are the result of Euroepan slavery I am still waiting for solid facts to make your case for as I have said. Most records indicate that European slaves went to the major cities. We even have eye witness accounts of escapees.

"'When we had arrived [in Cork], I made a request to Lord Inchaquoin to give me a passport for England. I took boat to Youghal and then embarked on the vessel John Filmer, which set sail with 120 passengers. `But before we had lost sight of land, we were captured by Algerine pirates, who put all the men in irons.'

...the corsairs plundered British shipping pretty much at will...
So wrote the Reverend Devereux Spratt - carried off in April 1641 for several years' bondage in Algiers, while attempting a simple voyage across the Irish Sea from County Cork to England. Spratt's experience has been largely forgotten now, though it was far from unique in his day."

Slaves in Barbary fell into two broad categories. The 'public slaves' belonged to the ruling pasha, who by right of rulership could claim an eighth of all Christians captured by the corsairs, and buy all the others he wanted at reduced prices. These slaves were housed in large prisons known as baños (baths), often in wretchedly overcrowded conditions. They were mostly used to row the corsair galleys in the pursuit of loot (and more slaves) - work so strenuous that thousands died or went mad while chained to the oar.

During the winter these galeotti worked on state projects - quarrying stone, building walls or harbour facilities, felling timber and constructing new galleys. Each day they would be given perhaps two or three loaves of black bread - 'that the dogs themselves wouldn't eat' - and limited water; they received one change of clothing every year. Those who collapsed on the job from exhaustion or malnutrition were typically beaten until they got up and went back to work. The pasha also bought most female captives, some of whom were taken into his harem, where they lived out their days in captivity. The majority, however, were purchased for their ransom value; while awaiting their release, they worked in the palace as harem attendants."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml


As you would expect it was the affluent pashas who would buy up most of the European females for their harems and banios. Therefore you should expect to find the descendants of these slaves in the major cities. Your scenario would have MORE European slaves being sent to Berber villages. Where is the logic in that, and where is the historical documentation??

Modern inhabitants of those islands silly. You are the one calling them Gaunches - right!


NO - YOU HAVE NOT NAMED ME A SINGLE KNOWN BERBER TRIBE THAT WAS CALLED FAIR IN COLOR. I HAVE NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT VANDALS, ROMANS AND EUROPEAN SLAVES OR ANY OTHER FAIR_SKINNED PEOPLE WERE EVER CALLED BERBERS BY THE BYZANTINE AND "MIDDLE EASTERN" PEOPLES.


DO YOU?!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
You said - "That some Middle Easterners described some Berber tribes as dark or Black ca not possibly settle this matter since we know Arabs and Morrs like Ibn Battuta describes others as being light skinned. We have Greeks vouching for light skinned Berbers not to mention Roman mosaics and other ancient depictions. At best we would have to agree that there were both light and dark Berbers going back at least to early history."

Stop putting words in their mouth - what Berber tribe was NOT DESCRIBED BLACK BY NEAR EASTERN PEOPLES BEFORE THE 16th century.

I AM WAITING?!
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
people who don't have fair skin:

 -
 -

 -
 -
 -
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Not yet. [Wink]

The only ones that we know of that mixed in with the Kabyle were some of the Vandals into the hills of the Aures. The rest of the foreigners you mention, I would expect to find in the cities.

In case you don't know, most of the cultural Berbers that we are arguing about are folks who managed to preserve some of their orginal Idenity becasue they lived outside population centers and were not thoroughly arabized like the others.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt...
The foreign invaders usually occupied the coastlands, so the Berbers found refuge in the inaccessible mountain and desert areas where they could continue to speak their own languages undisturbed, and live in accordance with their own customary laws"
http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

And if they managed to hold out in remote areas preserving their culture, should we not expect less admixture than with those in the cities???

Yeah you know the answer.. [Cool]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
people who aren't black

 -
 -

 -
 -
 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
The Berbers are a Mixed people, even the Berbers you post. Further you offer no evidence of how the Siwa became Mixed. Siwa is an Oasis therefore it is an Isolation.

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Comparision of the Siwa(Isolated Berbers) and East African and Nile Valley Africans

Sudanese

 -

Ethiopian

 -

Egyptian

 -

Siwans

 -


 -


Let the Lies stop!!

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

You can tell that many of the Siwa are mixed. And I posted something on the Siwa on another thread I think, perhaps you have seen it. Anyway, let's do the math, there are onlay about 20,000 Siwa speakers compared to about 5 million Kabyle speakers? Watcha gonna do?


 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
You said - "That some Middle Easterners described some Berber tribes as dark or Black ca not possibly settle this matter since we know Arabs and Morrs like Ibn Battuta describes others as being light skinned. We have Greeks vouching for light skinned Berbers not to mention Roman mosaics and other ancient depictions. At best we would have to agree that there were both light and dark Berbers going back at least to early history."

Stop putting words in their mouth - what Berber tribe was NOT DESCRIBED BLACK BY NEAR EASTERN PEOPLES BEFORE THE 16th century.

I AM WAITING?!

What?? Am I supposed to quote Ibn Battuta and others all over again??? What was your rebuttal again? White doesn't really mean White in Arab and Black doesn't mean Black?? Puhlease!
[Frown]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Not yet. [Wink]

The only ones that we know of that mixed in with the Kabyle were some of the Vandals into the hills of the Aures. The rest of the foreigners you mention, I would expect to find in the cities.

In case you don't know, most of the cultural Berbers that we are arguing about are folks who managed to preserve some of their orginal Idenity becasue they lived outside population centers and were not thoroughly arabized like the others.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt...
The foreign invaders usually occupied the coastlands, so the Berbers found refuge in the inaccessible mountain and desert areas where they could continue to speak their own languages undisturbed, and live in accordance with their own customary laws"
http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

And if they managed to hold out in remote areas preserving their culture, should we not expect less admixture than with those in the cities???

Yeah you know the answer.. [Cool]

Kabylia is the name for a mountainous area - what are the names of the white and Central Asian looking tribes of BERBERS mentioned in Kabylia, Melchior - BY ANYBODY.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Not yet. [Wink]

The only ones that we know of that mixed in with the Kabyle were some of the Vandals into the hills of the Aures. The rest of the foreigners you mention, I would expect to find in the cities.

In case you don't know, most of the cultural Berbers that we are arguing about are folks who managed to preserve some of their orginal Idenity becasue they lived outside population centers and were not thoroughly arabized like the others.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt...
The foreign invaders usually occupied the coastlands, so the Berbers found refuge in the inaccessible mountain and desert areas where they could continue to speak their own languages undisturbed, and live in accordance with their own customary laws"
http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

And if they managed to hold out in remote areas preserving their culture, should we not expect less admixture than with those in the cities???

Yeah you know the answer.. [Cool]

Kabylia is the name for a mountainous area - what are the names of the white and Central Asian looking tribes of BERBERS mentioned in Kabylia, Melchior - BY ANYBODY.
You only quoted things i have quoted previously to show the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. People like the Tuareg of Niger and Sahel as shown by the tribes you mentioned by Battuta were called white in Africa, and in fact in some places still are.


JUST LIKE THE SIWANS! JUST LIKE THE FULANI! JUST LIKE ME!

People like you were called the "red" man.

Thus if you are going to name a Berber tribe that was named white you need to get away from the dark-skinned Berber clans of the Tuareg.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
people who don't have fair skin:

 -
 -

 -
 -
 -

Umm most of those are light skinned well within the range of Eurasians.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
What is wrong with having Greco-Roman, Germanic, Syrian, Central Asian, Scythian, Alani, Turkish, East European, French, Celtic, Iranian, Slavic, or other European blood.

According to u nothing - so just be glad of what you are and acknowledge your heritage whether it be fair-skinned North African or European.

Because you are not going to usurp the heritage of a single one of the following Berber tribes Maghrawa, Jarawa, Kitama, Hawara, Zawagha, Goddala, Luwata, Mazike, Masmuda, Zanata, Nafuzawa Sanhaja, or any other Berber tribe described anciently as black if I can help it. I don't care how many of Eurasiatics come to speak Berber and how many genetic tests done on them.

nor are your kind going to do it with the ancient Egyptians and Arabians.


Now if you can name me a single verified Berber tribe before teh 16th century (such as the above) that was called fair in the European sense or even Near Eastern sense, I might change my mind. [Wink]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Not yet. [Wink]

The only ones that we know of that mixed in with the Kabyle were some of the Vandals into the hills of the Aures. The rest of the foreigners you mention, I would expect to find in the cities.

In case you don't know, most of the cultural Berbers that we are arguing about are folks who managed to preserve some of their orginal Idenity becasue they lived outside population centers and were not thoroughly arabized like the others.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt...
The foreign invaders usually occupied the coastlands, so the Berbers found refuge in the inaccessible mountain and desert areas where they could continue to speak their own languages undisturbed, and live in accordance with their own customary laws"
http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

And if they managed to hold out in remote areas preserving their culture, should we not expect less admixture than with those in the cities???

Yeah you know the answer.. [Cool]

Kabylia is the name for a mountainous area - what are the names of the white and Central Asian looking tribes of BERBERS mentioned in Kabylia, Melchior - BY ANYBODY.
There you go, just completely ignored everything I wrote. Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities and you fear that the Eurasian traits of surving Berbers tribes might be from prehistoric times. How disngenous of you. Lol. Shall we discuss their Dna instead??
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
More Images for Dana and others seeking Truth!!

Berber

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Moroccan

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Algerian

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
What is wrong with having Greco-Roman, Germanic, Syrian, Central Asian, Scythian, Alani, Turkish, East European, French, Celtic, Iranian, Slavic, or other European blood.

According to u nothing - so just be glad of what you are and acknowledge your heritage whether it be fair-skinned North African or European.

Because you are not going to usurp the heritage of a single one of the following Berber tribes Maghrawa, Jarawa, Kitama, Hawara, Zawagha, Goddala, Luwata, Mazike, Masmuda, Zanata, Nafuzawa Sanhaja, or any other Berber tribe described anciently as black if I can help it. I don't care how many of Eurasiatics come to speak


Now if you can name me a single verified Berber tribe before teh 16th century (such as the above) that was called fair in the European sense or even Near Eastern sense, I might change my mind.

Also i don't know how many times I have to tell you that I am not really that interested in the dna of Greco-Roman, Germanic, Syrian, Central Asian, Scythian, Alani, Turkish, East European, French, Celtic, Iranian, Slavic descended peoples.

MY GOD!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
More Images for Dana and others seeking Truth!!

Berber

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Moroccan

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Algerian

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These are nice pictures but they are also obvious mulatto descendants of Europeans and other non-Africans who have mixed with Berbers or black and hamitic Africans (of Afro-Asiatic ethnicity). or you could say vice versa.

That is what Berbers are today - mixed. Very unlike yesterdays Berbers and Mauri who were called blacks and Ethiopians for a reason.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
What is wrong with having Greco-Roman, Germanic, Syrian, Central Asian, Scythian, Alani, Turkish, East European, French, Celtic, Iranian, Slavic, or other European blood.

According to u nothing - so just be glad of what you are and acknowledge your heritage whether it be fair-skinned North African or European.

Because you are not going to usurp the heritage of a single one of the following Berber tribes Maghrawa, Jarawa, Kitama, Hawara, Zawagha, Goddala, Luwata, Mazike, Masmuda, Zanata, Nafuzawa Sanhaja, or any other Berber tribe described anciently as black if I can help it. I don't care how many of Eurasiatics come to speak Berber and how many genetic tests done on them.

nor are your kind going to do it with the ancient Egyptians and Arabians.


Now if you can name me a single verified Berber tribe before teh 16th century (such as the above) that was called fair in the European sense or even Near Eastern sense, I might change my mind. [Wink]

It's not about there being anything wrong with having mixed ancestry. I'm mixed ancestry myself.

Most of the tribes you mention live deep in the Sahara. Which means their "Blackness" can easliy be chalked up to exposure to Sub Saharans and Black slave trade. Too bad for you that they represent the minority of Berbers.

And Battuta mentioned the Bardama tribe as having very fair women.

Yeah and of course you will overlook genetic tests, they just put more dents in your desperate claims.

Here is another dent; If the Arabs viewd the Berbers as Blacks in North Africa then why is it only the area south of The Sahara refered to as Bilad al-Sudan (land of the Blacks)??? Ooops! [Eek!]

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
So there are no fair-skinned people in Africa descended from European slaves, mercenaries, Syrians, Vandals, Romans, Alans, Greeks, Iranians, that settled in Kabyle and the Aures and the Moroccan Riff, although the berbers are never described as fair in color before the 16th century.

OK - you win Melchior.

Not yet. [Wink]

The only ones that we know of that mixed in with the Kabyle were some of the Vandals into the hills of the Aures. The rest of the foreigners you mention, I would expect to find in the cities.

In case you don't know, most of the cultural Berbers that we are arguing about are folks who managed to preserve some of their orginal Idenity becasue they lived outside population centers and were not thoroughly arabized like the others.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt...
The foreign invaders usually occupied the coastlands, so the Berbers found refuge in the inaccessible mountain and desert areas where they could continue to speak their own languages undisturbed, and live in accordance with their own customary laws"
http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

And if they managed to hold out in remote areas preserving their culture, should we not expect less admixture than with those in the cities???

Yeah you know the answer.. [Cool]

Kabylia is the name for a mountainous area - what are the names of the white and Central Asian looking tribes of BERBERS mentioned in Kabylia, Melchior - BY ANYBODY.
There you go, just completely ignored everything I wrote. Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities and you fear that the Eurasian traits of surving Berbers tribes might be from prehistoric times. How disngenous of you. Lol. Shall we discuss their Dna instead??
Which early Berber tribe was not called black, Melchior.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


People like you were called the "red" man.

Thus if you are going to name a Berber tribe that was named white you need to get away from the dark-skinned Berber clans of the Tuareg.

The Egyptians referred to the Asiatics and Libyans as "Deshret"
of the red

ha
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
It's getting late. Ahhll be Baack!

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

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^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

The Slavers...

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Striking resemblence to this Moroccan from 1800's
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Dana, please stop appealing to racists. They are racists. Of course they are going to do everything in their power to erase, downplay, ignore and outright lie about anything that shows black people in a positive light. They been doing it for hundreds of years. People like that cannot be reasoned with through logic. They are simply trolls and should be ignored.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Most of the tribes you mention live deep in the Coastal Areas. Which means their "whiteness" can easliy be chalked up to exposure to Europeans(Greeks, Romans, Turks, Byzantines, Vandals etc) and White European slave trade.


............


Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.

Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology

-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient
-Mediterranean and the Near East
-Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture
-Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance


"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond

The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."


North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius"
Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


Most of the tribes you mention live deep in the Sahara. Which means their "Blackness" can easliy be chalked up to exposure to Sub Saharans and Black slave trade.



 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
What is wrong with having Greco-Roman, Germanic, Syrian, Central Asian, Scythian, Alani, Turkish, East European, French, Celtic, Iranian, Slavic, or other European blood.

According to u nothing - so just be glad of what you are and acknowledge your heritage whether it be fair-skinned North African or European.

Because you are not going to usurp the heritage of a single one of the following Berber tribes Maghrawa, Jarawa, Kitama, Hawara, Zawagha, Goddala, Luwata, Mazike, Masmuda, Zanata, Nafuzawa Sanhaja, or any other Berber tribe described anciently as black if I can help it. I don't care how many of Eurasiatics come to speak Berber and how many genetic tests done on them.

nor are your kind going to do it with the ancient Egyptians and Arabians.


Now if you can name me a single verified Berber tribe before teh 16th century (such as the above) that was called fair in the European sense or even Near Eastern sense, I might change my mind. [Wink]

It's not about there being anything wrong with having mixed ancestry. I'm mixed ancestry myself.

Most of the tribes you mention live deep in the Sahara. Which means their "Blackness" can easliy be chalked up to exposure to Sub Saharans and Black slave trade. Too bad for you that they represent the minority of Berbers.

And Battuta mentioned the Bardama tribe as having very fair women.

Yeah and of course you will overlook genetic tests, they just put more dents in your desperate claims.

Here is another dent; If the Arabs viewd the Berbers as Blacks in North Africa then why is it only the area south of The Sahara refered to as Bilad al-Sudan (land of the Blacks)??? Ooops! [Eek!]

[Big Grin]

Actually Bilad es Sudan among the Syrians refers to Central Arabia as well as parts of southern Asia in various periods, just as Bernard Lewis stated it.

That is because the name Sudan referred to Arab tribes as well as Canaanites and Berbers.

That is why people like the Maghrawa of the Zanata are called "Maghrawat es- Sudani" by Arabized persons like Idrisi.


Is this the Bilad es Sudan you are talking about Melchior -
"Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan'an are many nations among them the Ishban (Asben), the Zanj, and many peoples that MULTIPLIED IN THE MAGHRIB about 70 of them." Akhbar al Zaman of the Syrian al Masudi

Al Dimasqi wrote a Chapter entitling it "The Fifth Century of the (th Chapter concerning the sons of Ham son of Noah (peace be upon him) namely the Copts, the Nabataeans, the Berbers and the Sudan with their numerous divisions.


The first thing he states is "The historians assert that the cause of the black complexions of the sons of Ham is that he had..." etc.

From Corpus of early Arabic Sources of West African History, Levtsion and Hopkins, p. 212.

Ibn Khaldun of Tunisia mentions this same thing.

You see Melchior - the early "Near Easterners" didn't distinguish between the blackness of a man of the Sudan and those of the Berbers because in that time they were basically indistinguishable in color, if not in features.

They didn't know people like you were going to come around later and start naming the descendants of Vandals, Romans and European slaves and mercenaries "BERBERS", and start making the descendants of Arabs and Canaanites into modern fair-skinned Syrians.


I am sorry for your loss. [Frown]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Dana, please stop appealing to racists. They are racists. Of course they are going to do everything in their power to erase, downplay, ignore and outright lie about anything that shows black people in a positive light. They been doing it for hundreds of years. People like that cannot be reasoned with through logic. They are simply trolls and should be ignored.

Doug i really think this guy believes what he is saying otherwise I would be treating him like Lyin_ss. He may be desperate because he might be from North Africa. I know it is probably hopeless, but I was just trying to help out. But maybe you are right that he is just a troll. [Frown]
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

Yet a Million White Slaves somehow vanished into thin air without affecting the population but black slaves altered everyone under the son.


The Greeks and Romans called the Natives Mauros meaning black...

This is NOT BLACK thus not native


Result of Slavery and white Greek/Vandal invasions..

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 -

The Modern Kabyle are 40% Eurasian male and nearly 75% Eurasian female.

yet their African Y chromosome E3b originates in East Africa..(Like the Original Berbers-see the Siwa)..


890 – “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excusew to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
lioness,

What's left out is that the Vandals were crushed by the Byzantines. many of their men died and many more were expulsed and forced to serve under the Byzantines. The remainder of Vandals fled and and joined with the Berbers. Here is the rest of the story.

"Byzantine Emperor Justinian I declared war, with the stated intention of restoring Hilderic to the Vandal throne. While an expedition was en route, a large part of the Vandal army and navy was led by Tzazo, Gelimer's brother, to Sardinia to deal with a rebellion. As a result, the armies of the Eastern Empire commanded by Belisarius were able to land unopposed 10 miles (16 km) from Carthage. Gelimer quickly assembled an army,[29] and met Belisarius at the Battle of Ad Decimum; the Vandals were winning the battle until Gelimer's brother Ammatas and nephew Gibamund fell in battle. Gelimer then lost heart and fled. Belisarius quickly took Carthage while the surviving Vandals fought on.[30]

On December 15, 533, Gelimer and Belisarius clashed again at the Battle of Tricamarum, some 20 miles (32 km) from Carthage. Again, the Vandals fought well but broke, this time when Gelimer's brother Tzazo fell in battle. Belisarius quickly advanced to Hippo, second city of the Vandal Kingdom, and in 534 Gelimer surrendered to the Roman conqueror, ending the Kingdom of the Vandals.

North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius.[31] The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia states that "Gelimer was honourably treated and received large estates in Galatia. He was also offered the rank of a patrician but had to refuse it because he was not willing to change his Arian faith".[27] In the words of historian Roger Collins: "The remaining Vandals were then shipped back to Constantinople to be absorbed into the imperial army. As a distinct ethnic unit they disappeared".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals

It is likely most women and children who mixed in with the Berbers. An interesting fact is while Eurasian mtDNA is dominant among the Kabyle J and U, the frequencies of European Y DNA is low.

Y-Dna haplogroups:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1b2)[9]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I,J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[10] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Neolithic origin.

MtDNA Haplogroups:
H (3.65%), U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (42%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).

As is the case with most Berber populations the majorty of males are E carriers. Looking at the tale of the tape, the Vandal input which I presume is R1 and MtDNA J?..comprises only a fraction of Kabyle DNA. Hence the Vandals could not have been a majority. Additionally a dominant group would impose their language and culture on the lesser group, not the other way around.

Elementary, my dear Watson..uh Lioness. [Smile]

I agree with most of this, except for the language part and probable influences.


This is a list of Arabic loanwords in English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arabic_loanwords_in_English


There are a lot of Yiddish words implemented in English most aren't aware of. Yet Ashkenazi Jews make up a small portion.

Same it is with Afican Americans, and words rooted in African that are now used mainstream. AA's only make up a small portion. Yet have influenced the English language phylum.

Substratum is dynamic.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Not trying to say what Dana was up to, but this thread was a reaction to a Rahotep thread that claimed the Berbers are a Caucasian people and were Caucasian from the get go.

The Berbers a great variety, some more European Genetically other more African Genetically, Mel7 is trying to claim the black Berbers are the result of slaves.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excusew to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.


 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Good on Jari and Dana for exposing the lies of this guy who thinks all Black berbers are the result of slaves.

We know for sure that the Siwa Berbers are closest to what original Berbers looked like, and the majority of them are Black. We also know that in the past an quote, that I can';t find, but has been posted countless times states that Lybia at the time had an "negroid" strain.

What also must be understood is that the White Slave trade HAD to of IMPACTED North Africa because there was over 1 million people. To think these slaves did not leave an imprint on NA is just dumb. Melchior says hes mixed so I will respect his comments, but for him to try and claim that NA was not Black like lets say the sahel regions is just plain foolishness. NA Is an outpost of Africans were people gravitated to light skin and that was preferred. We see still links to other Africans in the features of some people from Morroco, Tunisia etc.

Doug M is also right about always repeating ourselves, but sadly there maybe newbies who read these forums that don't know these things and need to have there eyes open to the truth.

This thread is informative and I hope others read and research this info.

Peace
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"What does this have to do with Anything, Did your clown ass not say Southern Mauritania is where the Negros only managed to live??
BTW, The Berbers of Tissint are NOT Southern Morrocan. Your Racist Failed attept to dismiss the Black Berbers off as Slaves fails.

I will continue to Smack your ass with Truth."


If Truth is really on your side, then why are you so upset?? I didn't say "Southern Mauritania is where negros managed to live". Ibn Battuta said that as you progress southward somewhere in Mauritnaia is where the "land of Blacks" begins. Another article calimed that there were indigenous Blacks in Southern Morocco in the Draa valley.

And Tissint is in Southern Morocco
http://www.maplandia.com/morocco/sud/tata/tissint/
Sorry.

Near the Draa valley even... [Big Grin]
http://www.itineranceplus.com/english/culturalmemo2.asp?culturalID=46

I don't care whether the Black Berbers were slaves or not. I'm arguing about how long Eurasians have been in North Africa. One thing you all need to consider is that the so called continent of Africa is a made up region. The Black race does not magically end or begin at it's borders. The transition to Eurasian actually occurs within Africa as you cross the Sahara into North Africa. There have been documented records of Eurasians in North Africa since the Egyptians wrote about the Libyans etc. It is what it is.

I needed to look it up myself, and I may take a trip soon.


 -

It depends on how you look at "South". It's more like Southeast.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I have never said this or that is a "Real Berber" I have always maintained a position by the Berbers themselves that they are a Diverse Group of Black and White peoples. Berber is a Language that originated in East Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^^ in other words find a branch of the multi-ethnic Berber culture you like the looks of and say arbitrarily say these are "real Berbers" and the others are "fake"


And you think the black berbers you showed look east african?
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding

i already explained that U6 is one of the oldest genetic marker of the berbers and only common to North Africans [berbers]
U6 is a 30,0000 years old mutation of U which is believed to have entered North Africa via the Middle East thanks to the expansion of the Cro-Magnon.
Thus, Eurasian looking people have been living in North Africa since more than 30,000 years old

 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding

i already explained that U6 is one of the oldest genetic marker of the berbers and only common to North Africans [berbers]
U6 is a 30,0000 years old mutation of U which is believed to have entered North Africa via the Middle East thanks to the expansion of the Cro-Magnon.
Thus, Eurasian looking people have been living in North Africa since more than 30,000 years old

 -

1). You did not explain anything, you inserted. I asked you to show me archeological peer reviewed evidence. You did not.

2). I am not the one who posted about the Saami, it was your friend AKA alter-ego.

However, its interesting that North Africans have been taken to Northern Europe and that Vikings enslaved Saami's.

Vikings had their share in North Africa for a while, did you know that?

30.000 years ago North Africa was an extreme cold area.

Another thing I asked you was, did no one else lived in North Africa before?

Thanks in advance.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p 215

"Meanwhile, the Libyans in the western part of the Delta, were organizing
still another coalition, the fifth directed against the Black Egyptian nation
by the Indo-Europeans. Ramses III defeated them at Memphis in 1188 B.C.
After that date the White Libyans never again revolted against Egypt, but
they tried by every possible means to infiltrate peacefully and to settle
there as serfs or semi-serfs, working at various kinds of manual labor, as
farmers or artisans, especially in the Delta. They were also employed in
the army as an auxiliary foreign corps called Kehek.

The situation was identical in the Nubian Sudan where Libyans were
also used as semi-serfs in the army. But the Libyans settled in the Delta,
because of its proximity. These people, whose alien slave origin was
obvious, would gradually be freed by Egyptian law. Later, some would
become notables as a reward for "loyal" services to the Egyptian ruler.
Yet, their slave origin would never be forgotten by the true Egyptian
national, even when they took advantage of troubled periods to exercise
control of a given district in the Delta where military command had been
entrusted to them by the Pharaoh. We shall see how these foreign elements,
who felt no real sentimental attachment to Egyptian soil, were to undermine
political mores beginning with Psammetichus.

To protect the country against invasion, Ramses III had to resort to
conscription, drafting one Egyptian national out of ten (cf. Pirenne, II, 476).
Because of their immunity, we do not know whether this measure was
applicable to the temple properties. Since Ramses II, Libyans and other
White foreigners who were recruited into the auxiliary armed services had
farmed land belonging to the royal domain, of which the well-informed
Egyptian administration kept a strict accounting. To prevent their flight in
troubled periods, Ramses III had them all branded with the seal of the
local administration. This old Egyptian practice leaves no doubt about
their slave status, whether they were farmers in peacetime or enrolled in
the auxiliary forces in time of war. Authors often misuse the term "mercenaries"
to designate those who were, in fact, slaves bearing the indelible mark of their royal master

 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously a mixture of Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excuse to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.

I am actually being very objective. Did I ever say anything about fake. Am I a fact AngloAmerican because I live in the U.S. I speak the English because i live in America and some of my ancestors spoke it. But most English didn't look like me now did they!

If I were racisti.e. nationalist I would be saying that the original Englishman of the King James era looked like me or Obama. [Roll Eyes]

People should celebrate their heritage and not ignore history. Modern Berber-SPEAKERS descend from many different groups, and the original ones were NEAR BLACK IN COLOR.


AS WERE THE MESOLITHIC/NEOLITHIC SPANIARDS AND MOST SOUTHERN MEDITERRANEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Big Grin]

 -
Eastern Spain

FACE FACTS!
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.

You say that these fair skinned mulatto Libyans were Fulani and European in origin.

The you say that they were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

Who is this large mysterious Libyan population who everybody gets "absorbed" into?
Where is there archeological evidence of large premanent settlements in coastal North Africa prior to the Cartheginians?

You have referred to Libyans having a European component since
at least the New Kingdom period. Why do you assume everybody always mixed with other ethnicities across the board, every single group of Europeans of the period "absorbed" ?
Some populations remain in isolated areas, especially these rocky mounatinous regions such as the Atlas.
You're doing a lot of speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

"Berber" is not a term people of the region called themselves. Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa.The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.

Look at all the coins of the Numidian kings. I'm only showing a few of them below. The people don't look African.
Why is this? Were the people that made the coins incapable of depicting an African? Was it a conspiracy to make them look European?

Why do most coins depicting Numidan kings look like this:
 -
 -
 -




 -

Many, these Numidian kings do not look like this:

why?
 -

may or may not be Hannibal. But these various coins show they had representations of different phenotypes

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding

i already explained that U6 is one of the oldest genetic marker of the berbers and only common to North Africans [berbers]
U6 is a 30,0000 years old mutation of U which is believed to have entered North Africa via the Middle East thanks to the expansion of the Cro-Magnon.
Thus, Eurasian looking people have been living in North Africa since more than 30,000 years old

 -

1). You did not explain anything, you inserted. I asked you to show me archeological peer reviewed evidence. You did not.

2). I am not the one who posted about the Saami, it was your friend AKA alter-ego.

However, its interesting that North Africans have been taken to Northern Europe and that Vikings enslaved Saami's.

Vikings had their share in North Africa for a while, did you know that?

30.000 years ago North Africa was an extreme cold area.

Another thing I asked you was, did no one else lived in North Africa before?

Thanks in advance.

1)LULZ. I posted facts. No explanations needed.

2) Saamis do NOT have mtDNA U6 but U5. Vikings were probably of Y-DNA I and R. Majority of modern berbers are of E type. FAIL.

North Africa was not extremely cold.....Eh FAIL
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.

You say that these fair skinned mulatto Libyans were Fulani and European in origin.

The you say that they were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

Who is this large mysterious Libyan population who everybody gets "absorbed" into?
Where is there archeological evidence of large premanent settlements in coastal North Africa prior to the Cartheginians?

You have referred to Libyans having a European component since
at least the New Kingdom period. Why do you assume everybody always mixed with other ethnicities across the board, every single group of Europeans of the period "absorbed" ?
Some populations remain in isolated areas, especially these rocky mounatinous regions such as the Atlas.
You're doing a lot of speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

"Berber" is not a term people of the region called themselves. Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa.The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.

Look at all the coins of the Numidian kings. I'm only showing a few of them below. The people don't look African.
Why is this? Were the people that made the coins incapable of depicting an African? Was it a conspiracy to make them look European?

Why do most coins depicting Numidan kings look like this:
 -
 -
 -




 -

Many, these Numidian kings do not look like this:

why?
 -

may or may not be Hannibal. But these various coins show they had representations of different phenotypes

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

What time do these coins date?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Maybe you can show me the frequency Of this U6 Hg in Berbers, summarized by group? Is shown in my previous post.


Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding

i already explained that U6 is one of the oldest genetic marker of the berbers and only common to North Africans [berbers]
U6 is a 30,0000 years old mutation of U which is believed to have entered North Africa via the Middle East thanks to the expansion of the Cro-Magnon.
Thus, Eurasian looking people have been living in North Africa since more than 30,000 years old

 -

1). You did not explain anything, you inserted. I asked you to show me archeological peer reviewed evidence. You did not.

2). I am not the one who posted about the Saami, it was your friend AKA alter-ego.

However, its interesting that North Africans have been taken to Northern Europe and that Vikings enslaved Saami's.

Vikings had their share in North Africa for a while, did you know that?

30.000 years ago North Africa was an extreme cold area.

Another thing I asked you was, did no one else lived in North Africa before?

Thanks in advance.

1)LULZ. I posted facts. No explanations needed.

2) Saamis do NOT have mtDNA U6 but U5. Vikings were probably of Y-DNA I and R. Majority of modern berbers are of E type. FAIL.

North Africa was not extremely cold.....Eh FAIL

Facts is when one shows peer reviewed evidence.You did not!!!

Tell me how large was the female population and where did they settle? What were the living conditions and survive?


North Africa was cold 30.000 years ago. Fact!


So, this means that the Saami study is incorrect. Right?

Also, I ask, did anyone live in North Africa before 30.000 years?

Yes, the Vikings were probably I* or R*. this can be found in certain Berber populations. Evidence of more admixture in the autosomal.


And last but not least, the E* marker, from where does it stem? What is the basal of the Hg?
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excuse to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.

I am actually being very objective. Did I ever say anything about fake. Am I a fact AngloAmerican because I live in the U.S. I speak the English because i live in America and some of my ancestors spoke it. But most English didn't look like me now did they!

If I were racisti.e. nationalist I would be saying that the original Englishman of the King James era looked like me or Obama. [Roll Eyes]

People should celebrate their heritage and not ignore history. Modern Berber-SPEAKERS descend from many different groups, and the original ones were NEAR BLACK IN COLOR.


AS WERE THE MESOLITHIC/NEOLITHIC SPANIARDS AND MOST SOUTHERN MEDITERRANEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Big Grin]

 -
Eastern Spain

FACE FACTS!

Yes, this is evidence.
 
Posted by HorusNG (Member # 15917) on :
 
[Smile]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.

You say that these fair skinned mulatto Libyans were Fulani and European in origin.

The you say that they were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

Who is this large mysterious Libyan population who everybody gets "absorbed" into?
Where is there archeological evidence of large premanent settlements in coastal North Africa prior to the Cartheginians?

You have referred to Libyans having a European component since
at least the New Kingdom period. Why do you assume everybody always mixed with other ethnicities across the board, every single group of Europeans of the period "absorbed" ?
Some populations remain in isolated areas, especially these rocky mounatinous regions such as the Atlas.
You're doing a lot of speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

"Berber" is not a term people of the region called themselves. Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa.The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.

Look at all the coins of the Numidian kings. I'm only showing a few of them below. The people don't look African.
Why is this? Were the people that made the coins incapable of depicting an African? Was it a conspiracy to make them look European?

Why do most coins depicting Numidan kings look like this:



Many, these Numidian kings do not look like this:

why?
 -

may or may not be Hannibal. But these various coins show they had representations of different phenotypes

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

Liyin_ ss I can never tell if you are kidding or what.

Why should these coins be pictures of Numidian kings when similar ones are found in Rome and when in fact national geographic mentions some of them thought to have been hannibal were in fact Roman generals.

Are you for real. just because someone on Mathilda pseudo anthropology forum said they were KITAMA and SAHNAJA KINGS as you have stated doesn't make it so. What happened to all of these Greek and Roman looking Sanhaja during the time of Butlan and why does Procopius call them black. He names these same Moor rulers in his book and says the Moors were black skinned UNLIKE THE VANDALS. Of course he didn't say "except for their rulers who looked like Greeks and Romans". [Confused]


HE AND OTHERS ALSO NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BERBERS ALONG THE COASTS BEING FAIR IN COLOR.

Not everybody in Libya and north africa was a BERBER!

These names Jugurtha, Gildo, massinissa, Takfarinas etc. are names of the leaders of living Berber tribes according to scholars, with names like Kitama, Ifuraces or Iforas and other names associated with modern Tuareg. Why should these individuals have looked like Vandals and Romans when in the time of 14th they are referred to as "black" in color and black from the curse of Ham or Canaan. Why does ibn Khaldun go to such lengths to explain what people in his day thought about HOW THE BERBERS GOT BLACK-SKINNED.


So something is wrong with your logic, wouldn't you say. Or otherwise would we would have to say only the Moorish rulers looked like Romans while the rest looked like Tuareg and Songhai.

Why does Claudius say mixing with the Nasamonii Moors made for "hideous hybrids". Why does Corippus in the 6th century call the Moorish captives 'black as crows".

Why are the Sanhaja in times of Arab writers have the names of Tuareg tribess.

Do you understand that 1+ 3 does not equal -2. What is wrong is that you don't the history of North Africa and nor do most people writing about this topic.

The history of the Berber tribes of North Africa is well documented. These people had names and we know what they were called and how they were described until modern times.

Berber is not a vandal word nor is it derived from the same root as "barbarian". Because you are not interested in nor do you like black African people you do not know that these are two different words "Baribari" is the name of a black African people today still known as Barabir and Baribari. It has ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY.

of course the people who speak Berber who you want to claim were Berbers don't call themselves by this name. Nor were they ever designated as such.

It was the name used for the Mauri Bavares or Babar a people of the mountains of Babor thought to be ancestral to the Imraguen and Haratin, and sometimes suspected to be ancestral to the black people (according to Butlan) known as Kitama (see UNESCO history of Africa).

The Mauri Bavares and Mauri Baquates were suspected to be related and the latter according to certain scholars became the Berghwata branch of the Masmuda. The same Masmuda who are referred to as blacks by Butlan, Abu Shama and Nasir Khusrau.

That is why what your compatriots write is nothing but repitition of nationalist rhetoric and not based on any historical evidence.

The Barbari are people known in Africa as having moved from the riff region of Abyssinia in ancient times. This name came to be transferred to the Tuareg, or else the Tuareg transferred it to the Wangara.

In any case neither of these people were originally fair in color.

That is why you do not ever hear of fair-skinned Berbers. The term refers to people that emigrated long after the Bronze Age into north Africa from EAST AFRICA.

The only people that are most assuredly from Bronze Age and neolithic African origin are the Haratin or Ikaradan(likely Badarian types), the Fulani or Barzu Fulitani and some of the Mande speakers.

No one is saying there was not some influx of a few non-African people into North Africa but for the most part Eurasiatics are not indicated in the skeletal record regardless of the dna interpretations of Mathilda pseudoresearch forum.

i guess you do know the ancient Berbers neolithic and Mesolithic peoples on both sides of the Mediterranean were for the most part mostly markedly dolichocephalic Africans, like the Egyptians, while todays very fair BERBER-SPEAKERS are NOT.

And southern Mediterraneans in Italy and Lebanon today for example are among the most brachycephalic people in the world.

The only testimony i can find is in the influx of the lateral headed people between the 2nd to 6th dynasties in some northern towns of Egypt. Nor is it reflected in the Saharan rock art until after the age of the "people of the sea", - unless those women riding oxen and possessing profiles (like something out of a 1960s French fashion institute) are fakes - as some historians suspect.

Lyin _ss - if you can not be rational I can not really assist you so you need to stop asking me questions. [Wink]

I remember you have also put up Greek coins of the Sabaean kingdom and called them Sabeans as well. [Frown]

 -

“the Fulbe or Fulahs of the Chad-zone sometimes braid the hair in a manner which strikingly recalls the Libyans of the monuments.” (The Eastern Libyans, Oric Bates, 1914, p. 136).

 -

These people of the western deserts of Egypt are depicted in the same exact color as the Egyptian pharaohs on the same walls and are wearing Fulani hairstyles, Lying A_s.

DEAL WITH IT! [Wink]

PS - still too bad I haven't found the old kingdom paintings YET by Nina Davies that look just like these people but even darker.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

But - You don't get any props LYing.

knock, knock - is there wood in there, or just a numb skull. You just absorb what you want to, apparently. I already told you about the Maxyes.

Did I not post this previously. How many times do I need to repeat this. [Confused]

" the German historian Herbert Wendt noted that “the Negroes” depicted as servants and luxury slaves on vases in the Hellenic world were called Amaseos. He attributes this to them having been mocked as the folk of the Pharaoh known to the Greeks as Amasis. In the same paragraph, he adds, in Rome “every other slave was called Amasix, Maxyx, Maxitanus or simply Max” (Wendt, 1962, p. 66). Wendt refers to Amasis as a Berber king (Herbert Wendt,It began in Babel: The study of the birth and development of race and peoples. Houghton Mifflin Company, 1962, p. 57-58)."

Stephane Gsell quoted from the 4th century Expositio Totius Mundi in an early publication which says one population lived in the desert known both as “Mazices and Ethiopians”( Gsell, 1927, p. 2, Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, Les Royaumes Indigenes Organisation Sociale, Politique et Economique 43. Paris: Librairie Hachette

http://www.archive.org/stream/histoireancienn05gsel/histoireancienn05gsel_djvu.txt

The Mazikes i.e. Maxyes were ACCORDING TO SCHOLARS translations from Latin called "ETHIOPIANS" in ancient Roman texts.


So just try now with your numb skull to figure out why the people called Tuareg or Imoshagh were called "Ethiopians" - dimwitty.

 -

BTW - your repeated trolling is just allowing me to repeatedly get this info out to more people that can look it up and post it around the web.

Thank you! [Wink]
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
.

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]

[QUOTE who="Afreekan"]as a black north african.. i can tell that im related to most of the north african (not all). i can say that the other non black looking north african that im related to, have black ancestry. our genealogic tree speaks by itself.

the average north african have nappy hair, blue/purple lips like obama (lol)..

european looking north african

 -

average north african


 -


black north african


 -
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
dana you need to be concise. Instead your method is too flood a post going off on a million tangents, rambling fragments of information all strung together in a rant. One point at a time girl. -thinking you can overwhelm the opponent in with verbose tidbits.
Van Sertima was creative in his etymology of the word "Berber" borrowing from the pure speculation of a 19th century author.
However it has nothing to do with the Baribari people or the word "Berebere". This type of things gets done all the time. In a multitude of African languages some words are similiar to others. It is then people try to draw connections out of coincidence. Show me any contemporary expert on N. Africa that has that alternate etymolgy for Berber.


quote:
Originally posted by danamarnish:

The history of the Berber tribes of North Africa is well documented. These people had names and we know what they were called and how they were described until modern times.

not at all It is not well documented. What documentation are your referring to? What are the titles? What books?The Berbers had virtually no written records contemporary to dyanstic Egypt. Early writings were in Phoenician. That should tell you something.

Do you want to continue with Van Sertima on Berbers? How about this from Golden Age of the Moor p 209:


Only in later times , after the 12th dynasty, do the paintings show other types under the same terms. Among the most common names for the Libyans in ancient Egypt are Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou. Another scholar more recently places the first appearanceof blond Libyans under the name of Temehou during the time of Seti of the 19th dynasty. The name Temehou previously referred to a land located to the west of the Nile in what is now called Libya and Sudan.

^^^ you wanted something prior to the 16th century. This refers to the 19th dynasty (1298 to 1187 bc) when the Egyptians first recorded these people. What is that 27 centuries before?
You lost the premise of you thread question a long time ago in this thread, by hundreds of years if not even earlier back to the 12th dynasty.
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
NEW! The History of North Africa
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Make up your mind - NEGRESS.

"You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers."

You posted the below a few days ago - REMEMBER!

“First of all, im black. ok? And certainly not because of the arabs

Are you aware that half of the Maghrebins have arab ancestries?
Do they look black to you? or do i need an eye exam?

Are you aware that the blacks in the arabian peninsula are moslty the offsprings of the Black Slaves from South East Africa?”


First you are not Arab and then you are A Sulaym DESCENDANT. First you are Beja and then you are not black. Probably just some white troll, that wants to be Beja. [Roll Eyes]

Go away hater! [Big Grin]

 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
dana you need to be concise. Instead your method is too flood a post going off on a million tangents, rambling fragments of information all strung together in a rant. One point at a time girl. -thinking you can overwhelm the opponent in with verbose tidbits.
Van Sertima was creative in his etymology of the word "Berber" borrowing from the pure speculation of a 19th century author.
However it has nothing to do with the Baribari people or the word "Berebere". This type of things gets done all the time. In a multitude of African languages some words are similiar to others. It is then people try to draw connections out of coincidence. Show me any contemporary expert on N. Africa that has that alternate etymolgy for Berber.


quote:
Originally posted by danamarnish:

The history of the Berber tribes of North Africa is well documented. These people had names and we know what they were called and how they were described until modern times.

not at all It is not well documented. What documentation are your referring to? What are the titles? What books?The Berbers had virtually no written records contemporary to dyanstic Egypt. Early writings were in Phoenician. That should tell you something.

Do you want to continue with Van Sertima on Berbers? How about this from Golden Age of the Moor p 209:


Only in later times , after the 12th dynasty, do the paintings show other types under the same terms. Among the most common names for the Libyans in ancient Egypt are Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou. Another scholar more recently places the first appearanceof blond Libyans under the name of Temehou during the time of Seti of the 19th dynasty. The name Temehou previously referred to a land located to the west of the Nile in what is now called Libya and Sudan.

^^^ you wanted something prior to the 16th century. This refers to the 19th dynasty (1298 to 1187 bc) when the Egyptians first recorded these people. What is that 27 centuries before?
You lost the premise of you thread question a long time ago in this thread, by hundreds of years if not even earlier back to the 12th dynasty.

LOL! Why do you keep quoting from what I wrote ,young lady.

Did I ever say those blond people wearing furs and no braids in their hair were ancestral to later people called "Berbers".i.e. Mauri.

I guess you are so thick headed you still don't know who i am.

Get this straight - in case your numbskull doesn't know it yet.

I am the one wrote that authored that article 20 years ago.

I am the one that coaxed Dr. Van Sertima into editing and publishing the book - Golden Age of the Moors.

Lastly, I am thus probably THE REASON we are even talking about the subject on this forum, or on any forum.

GOT IT! [Big Grin]

BTW - and its only the beginning.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
NEW! The History of North Africa
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 -

I hate to say this, malibudusul, but I don't see anything on the site which says that painting of women on oxen is fake. Although it does look like someone without a sense of proportion tried to copy the things Fulani women wear on their heads.

That's the problem. Where does someone say that particular painting was suspected of being fake, not that that doesn't mean it wasn't fake.

Women in Kanem ride oxen like this,as the Garamantians did, but of course these women are black.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
.

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]

[QUOTE who="Afreekan"]as a black north african.. i can tell that im related to most of the north african (not all). i can say that the other non black looking north african that im related to, have black ancestry. our genealogic tree speaks by itself.

the average north african have nappy hair, blue/purple lips like obama (lol)..

european looking north african

 -

average north african


 -


black north african


 -

and?
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Make up your mind - NEGRESS.

"You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers."

You posted the below a few days ago - REMEMBER!

“First of all, im black. ok? And certainly not because of the arabs

Are you aware that half of the Maghrebins have arab ancestries?
Do they look black to you? or do i need an eye exam?

Are you aware that the blacks in the arabian peninsula are moslty the offsprings of the Black Slaves from South East Africa?”


First you are not Arab and then you are A Sulaym DESCENDANT. First you are Beja and then you are not black. Probably just some white troll, that wants to be Beja. [Roll Eyes]

Go away hater! [Big Grin]

 -

Clown. i am not arab. im part arab. Thats different. ive never said i was not black, clown.
And, you are probably unaware that i have NUBIAN ancestries. Thats right clown.
The majority of my family do not "look black". clown.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Originally posted by the lioness

not at all It is not well documented. What documentation are your referring to? What are the titles? What books?The Berbers had virtually no written records contemporary to dyanstic Egypt. Early writings were in Phoenician. That should tell you something.

Do you want to continue with Van Sertima on Berbers? How about this from Golden Age of the Moor p 209:


Only in later times , after the 12th dynasty, do the paintings show other types under the same terms. Among the most common names for the Libyans in ancient Egypt are Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou. Another scholar more recently places the first appearanceof blond Libyans under the name of Temehou during the time of Seti of the 19th dynasty. The name Temehou previously referred to a land located to the west of the Nile in what is now called Libya and Sudan.

^^^ you wanted something prior to the 16th century. This refers to the 19th dynasty (1298 to 1187 bc) when the Egyptians first recorded these people. What is that 27 centuries before?
You lost the premise of you thread question a long time ago in this thread, by hundreds of years if not even earlier back to the 12th dynasty. [/qb]

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

! Why do you keep quoting from what I wrote ,young lady.

Did I ever say those blond people wearing furs and no braids in their hair were ancestral to later people called "Berbers".i.e. Mauri.

I guess you are so thick headed you still don't know who i am.

Get this straight - in case your numbskull doesn't know it yet.

I am the one wrote that authored that article 20 years ago.

I am the one that coaxed Dr. Van Sertima into editing and publishing the book - Golden Age of the Moors.

Lastly, I am thus probably THE REASON we are even talking about the subject on this forum, or on any forum.

GOT IT! [Big Grin]

BTW - and its only the beginning. [/QB]

I knew you were associated with Van Sertima but overlooked your associating to this particular article.

But it's irrelevant.
Where is a comtemporary scholar on N. Africa who says Berber is derived from Baribari?

Many scholars and Berbers themselves would include Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou in their ancestry.

The definition of Berber is not a fixed thing and the Berber culture is comprised of a number of tribes including the Tuareg and the Tehenou, Temehou, Lebou and others. perhaps including the Sea people.

Why are we dicussing "Berber"? You agreed that the people didn't and don't call themselves that. How about "Imazighen"

You are simply trying to make yourself an authorty of who has the right to call themselves Imazighen.

The people who have the right are the people who speak the language, live on the land and maintain the culture, not Miss dana.

This includes decendants of Phoenicians and Sea People who go back to the 19th dyansty of Egypt period perhaps as far as the 12th dyn who became part of the Imazighen.

There were large immigrations from Vandals and Phoenicians.
Where is the archaeological evidence that there were large populations of coastal North Africans before them?
I'm not speaking of the interior of Algeria I'm speaking of the coastal areas.
There is no way of knowing how many people if any lived in some of these coastal regions in ancient times.
With no evidence you assume there were large numbers of people there, large enough to "absorb" large immigrations of which there is ample evidence of people from the other side of the Mediterranean in ancient times.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
jari,

This is the scoop on your Siwa Berbers..
Many historical sources state that the Siwa Oasis was a major stop along the slave caravan route:

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today.

Within the 20th Century, the first Egyptian ruler to visit the Siwa Oasis was Abbas II, but even he had to disguise his Austrian wife as an Egyptian army officer. He went there in style, with a vanguard consisting of 62 camels and a main entourage of 228 camels and 22 horses.."

The folks from Kufra were Nilo Saharan tribes like the Tebu.

"The most pronounced slavery activity involved the enslavement of black Africans who were brought via trans-Saharan trade routes. For example, in the 1830s - a period of time when slave trade flourished - Ghadamis was handling 2,500 slaves a year[1]. Even though the slave trade was officially abolished in Tripoli in 1853, in practice it continued until the 1890s[2]. The British Consul in Benghazi wrote in 1875 to the effect that the slave trade had reached an enormous scale and that the slaves who were sold in Alexandria and Istanbul quadruple in price. This trade he says was encouraged by the local Government[2]. Adolf Vischer, writes in an article published in 1911 that:"...it has been said that slave traffic is still going on on the Benghazi-Wadai route, but it is difficult to test the truth of such an assertion as, in any case, the traffic is carried on secretly"[3]. At Kufra, the Egyptian traveller Ahmed Hassanein Bey found out in 1916 that he could buy a girl slave for 5 pounds sterling while in 1923 he found that the price had become 30 to 40 pounds sterling.[4]. Another traveler, the Muslim Danish Knud Holmboe, who crossed the Italian Libyan dessert in 1930 was told that slavery is still practiced in Kufra and that he could buy a slave girl for 30 Sterlings in the Thursday market."
^ a b Wright, John (2007). The trans-Saharan slave trade. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-38046-4.


"The inhabitants of Siwa are Berbers mixed with Bedouins and the descendants of Sudanese slaves. The oasis has altogether about 25 000 inhabitants living in six settlements. The town of Siwa with about 12 000 inhabitants is the economic center of the oasis. The other places are Aghurmi, Abu Shuruf, Kamisa, Balad Al Rum and Bahi Al Din, in descending sequence according to their population."
http://www.segap.de/siwa-en.html

The record is consistent.

"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.

The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."

http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Atually Bilad es Sudan among the Syrians refers to Central Arabia as well as parts of southern Asia in various periods, just as Bernard Lewis stated it.

That is because the name Sudan referred to Arab tribes as well as Canaanites and Berbers.

That is why people like the Maghrawa of the Zanata are called "Maghrawat es- Sudani" by Arabized persons like Idrisi.


Is this the Bilad es Sudan you are talking about Melchior -
"Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan'an are many nations among them the Ishban (Asben), the Zanj, and many peoples that MULTIPLIED IN THE MAGHRIB about 70 of them." Akhbar al Zaman of the Syrian al Masudi

Al Dimasqi wrote a Chapter entitling it "The Fifth Century of the (th Chapter concerning the sons of Ham son of Noah (peace be upon him) namely the Copts, the Nabataeans, the Berbers and the Sudan with their numerous divisions.


The first thing he states is "The historians assert that the cause of the black complexions of the sons of Ham is that he had..." etc.

From Corpus of early Arabic Sources of West African History, Levtsion and Hopkins, p. 212.

Ibn Khaldun of Tunisia mentions this same thing.

You see Melchior - the early "Near Easterners" didn't distinguish between the blackness of a man of the Sudan and those of the Berbers because in that time they were basically indistinguishable in color, if not in features.

They didn't know people like you were going to come around later and start naming the descendants of Vandals, Romans and European slaves and mercenaries "BERBERS", and start making the descendants of Arabs and Canaanites into modern fair-skinned Syrians.


I am sorry for your loss.


Syrians are in the damn Levant. We are talking about Arabs in general.

"soudan, or Sudan (Bilad es-Sudan, "Country of the Blacks"), a term applied by mediaeval Arab geographers to the region of Africa south of the Sahara mainly inhabited by peoples of Negro blood, hence corresponding to the expressions Nigritia, Negroland, at one time current amongst European writers. It liens mainly between 5° and 18° N. lat., consequently entirely within the tropics, and in its widest sense stretches right across the continent from Cape Verd on the Atlantic to Massowah on the Red Sea. But the term is more usually restricted to the region bounded N. by the Sahara, S. by Upper Guinea and the lands draining to the Congo basin, W. and E. by Senegambia and the Abyssinian highlands repressively (see vol. 1. plate II.).

Desert-dwelling animists were part of the Dar el Harb,
and could be enslaved so that the boundary between the Dar el Harb and Islam in North
West Africa roughly followed the old Roman (Christian) frontier. A slave trade bringing
Saharans and sub-Saharans through the desert to North Africa, which existed in Roman
times, continued and documentary evidence in the Nile Valley shows it to have been regulated
there by treaty. In succeeding centuries the desert routes were increasingly used as
camel nomadism became commoner and the frontier of the Dar el Harb was pushed
further and further southwards until in the twelfth to thirteenth centuries it had reached
Islam, archaeology and slavery in Africa 45
the West African forest zone and the sub-Saharan savannahs became known as the Bilad
es Sudan (the land of the blacks) and the source of slaves. The nature of this trade and
the use of slaves in the savannahs will be discussed below.
The second Muslim penetration of Africa followed a different course
http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/archaeology/Publications/Islamic%20Archaeology/Islam,%20archaeology%20and%20slavery%20in%20Africa.pdf

And it turns out the Berbers themselves have their own term for Blacks. And the also call the land south of the Sahara "and of the Blacks"

"tymologically speaking, the meaning of Gnawa likely derives from the Berber word aguinaw, which is connected with skin color. It means “black man” in contrast with the white Berber. This word could be itself the origin of the name Guinea because akal n-iguinamen in Berber means the “land of the black men” just like the Arabic term bilad as-sudan, which means, “land of the black people.” The term was also adopted by the Portuguese and appeared mainly as “Guinea” on European maps dating from the 14th century."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Dana, please stop appealing to racists. They are racists. Of course they are going to do everything in their power to erase, downplay, ignore and outright lie about anything that shows black people in a positive light. They been doing it for hundreds of years. People like that cannot be reasoned with through logic. They are simply trolls and should be ignored.

Umm.. Why am I a racist again? Because I believe that the Berbers were mostly Eurasian? Because that's esentially what Iam arguing about here. If that makes me a racist in your view then you are a pathetically feeble minded moron with serious self esteem issues to boot. Get help!
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities
[/QB][/QUOTE]


Did you not read what was posted about slaves being bought by the pashas sent to the harems and banios? Men being used for contrsuction projects?? Who had the money to purchase slaves??? Where would the major markets have been? And where the Fcuk did I say it had no effect on the native population?? Don't put words in my mouth just because you're not good at making a sensible argument. Obvioulsy the slaves will go the most affluent and would be sold in a market that is the most accesible to would be buiyers..that is the major urban centers. Comon sense!
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
NEW! The History of North Africa
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 -

I hate to say this, malibudusul, but I don't see anything on the site which says that painting of women on oxen is fake. Although it does look like someone without a sense of proportion tried to copy the things Fulani women wear on their heads.

That's the problem. Where does someone say that particular painting was suspected of being fake, not that that doesn't mean it wasn't fake.

Women in Kanem ride oxen like this,as the Garamantians did, but of course these women are black.

"Some of the rock art faked by Henri Lhote"
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excuse to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.

I am actually being very objective. Did I ever say anything about fake. Am I a fact AngloAmerican because I live in the U.S. I speak the English because i live in America and some of my ancestors spoke it. But most English didn't look like me now did they!

If I were racisti.e. nationalist I would be saying that the original Englishman of the King James era looked like me or Obama. [Roll Eyes]

People should celebrate their heritage and not ignore history. Modern Berber-SPEAKERS descend from many different groups, and the original ones were NEAR BLACK IN COLOR.


AS WERE THE MESOLITHIC/NEOLITHIC SPANIARDS AND MOST SOUTHERN MEDITERRANEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Big Grin]

 -
Eastern Spain

FACE FACTS!

I asked for documentation on this, where is it? Funny how you allow for Blacks to cross into Europe in prehistoric times, but you refuse to believe that Europeans crossed over during the Ice age??

Admit, you are racially biased, to say the least.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Dana,

More descriptions of North Africa by Arabs. this from Ibn Khaldūn:

"The human inhabitants of these zones are more temperate (well-proportioned) in their bodies, color, character qualities, and (general) conditions214 They are found to be extremely moderate in their dwellings, clothing, food­stuffs, and crafts. They use houses that are well constructed of stone and embellished by craftsmanship. They rival each other in production of the very best tools and implements. Among them, one finds the natural minerals, such as gold, silver, iron, copper, lead, and tin. In their business dealings they use the two precious metals (gold and silver). They avoid intemperance quite generally in all their conditions. Such are the inhabitants of the Maghrib, of Syria, the two 'Iraqs, Western India (as-Sind), and China, as well as of Spain; also the European Christians nearby, the Galicians,215 and all those who live together with these peoples or near them in the three temperate zones. The 'Iraq and Syria are directly in the middle and therefore are the most temperate of all these countries.

Notice he lumps Maghrebians in with Southern Europeans, Middle easterners and Chinese, people with moderate complexions..

And Blacks.

"The black color (of skin) common to the inhabitants of the first and second zones is the result of the composition of the air in which they live, and which comes about under the influence of the greatly increased heat in the south. The sun is at the zenith there twice a year at short intervals. In (al­most) all seasons, the sun is in culmination for a long time. The light of the sun, therefore, is plentiful.220 People there have (to undergo) a very severe summer, and their skins turn black because of the excessive heat."http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/Chapter1/Ch_1_03.htm

Al Bakri in his writings also made a distinction between Berbers and Blacks to the South.

http://tinyurl.com/6j3v93w

And here we have a depiction of Moors from mideival Spain. Only one brotha??
 -

SOMEBODY IS LYING!
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
"Algeria
STRUCTURE OF SOCIETY


The heterogeneous population of the cities included men of mixed Turkish and Algerian descent called Kouloughli Moors, a term coined by the French to refer to descendants of Andalusian refugees; Christian slaves from around the Mediterranean captured by Barbary Coast pirates; and African slaves who worked as laborers and domestics. The cities also had small Jewish communities that would become more important under the French colonial system. Many cities had small groups of Mzab who owned grocery and butcher shops and operated the public baths, and Kabyles who came briefly to the cities before returning to their areas of origin."
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-366.html
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Dumbass if Slaves in Barbary went to affluent owners how the f-ck did Slaves alter the siwi Berbers who are an Isolated group of people and who don't admix with non Siwi Berbers.

You lying bitch, you are the one who cant put an argument together. If the Black Slave Trade could alter and produce black berbers the same is true for white Berbers.

Over a Million something white slaves went to Barbary and We are to expect not one went to Berber Villages and areas, BTW, Dumbass the Berbers live in the Major cities dumbfuck. Majority of black slaves ALSO, dumbass.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities

Did you not read what was posted about slaves being bought by the pashas sent to the harems and banios? Men being used for contrsuction projects?? Who had the money to purchase slaves??? Where would the major markets have been? And where the Fcuk did I say it had no effect on the native population?? Don't put words in my mouth just because you're not good at making a sensible argument. Obvioulsy the slaves will go the most affluent and would be sold in a market that is the most accesible to would be buiyers..that is the major urban centers. Comon sense! [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

This is the scoop on your Siwa Berbers..
Many historical sources state that the Siwa Oasis was a major stop along the slave caravan route:



None of your sources mention anything about a large scale of slaves mixing with the Siwa. I will dismantle your argument with your own sources and prove your bias.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today.
http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

Where in this does it say that the Siwa Berbers(Whom are Pictured) mixed with the Slaves on a Large Scale??

Can you comprehend your won source??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Within the 20th Century, the first Egyptian ruler to visit the Siwa Oasis was Abbas II, but even he had to disguise his Austrian wife as an Egyptian army officer. He went there in style, with a vanguard consisting of 62 camels and a main entourage of 228 camels and 22 horses.."

The folks from Kufra were Nilo Saharan tribes like the Tebu.

Do you know where Kufra is?? Its a hop and skip away from Siwa and located in North africa AKA Lybia.

[img]http://maps.ihs.com/basin-monitor-ordering-service/africa/images/410000oil-and-gas-al-kufra-basin.jpg[img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufra

Kufra's natives are Nilo Saharan Tebu but Siwa and the Rest of North Africa have no native blacks..LMAO. Fail.

Also You still have not proven large scale Intermixing with Siwa Berbers.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The most pronounced slavery activity involved the enslavement of black Africans who were brought via trans-Saharan trade routes. For example, in the 1830s - a period of time when slave trade flourished - Ghadamis was handling 2,500 slaves a year[1]. Even though the slave trade was officially abolished in Tripoli in 1853, in practice it continued until the 1890s[2]. The British Consul in Benghazi wrote in 1875 to the effect that the slave trade had reached an enormous scale and that the slaves who were sold in Alexandria and Istanbul quadruple in price. This trade he says was encouraged by the local Government[2]. Adolf Vischer, writes in an article published in 1911 that:"...it has been said that slave traffic is still going on on the Benghazi-Wadai route, but it is difficult to test the truth of such an assertion as, in any case, the traffic is carried on secretly"[3]. At Kufra, the Egyptian traveller Ahmed Hassanein Bey found out in 1916 that he could buy a girl slave for 5 pounds sterling while in 1923 he found that the price had become 30 to 40 pounds sterling.[4]. Another traveler, the Muslim Danish Knud Holmboe, who crossed the Italian Libyan dessert in 1930 was told that slavery is still practiced in Kufra and that he could buy a slave girl for 30 Sterlings in the Thursday market."
^ a b Wright, John (2007). The trans-Saharan slave trade. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-38046-4.



None of this has anything to do with Siwa, Next..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The inhabitants of Siwa are Berbers mixed with Bedouins and the descendants of Sudanese slaves. The oasis has altogether about 25 000 inhabitants living in six settlements. The town of Siwa with about 12 000 inhabitants is the economic center of the oasis. The other places are Aghurmi, Abu Shuruf, Kamisa, Balad Al Rum and Bahi Al Din, in descending sequence according to their population."
http://www.segap.de/siwa-en.html

The record is consistent.

It is really consistant or are you playing google scholar?? First you claim(Your Evidence) says the slaves were Tebu(Did no Admix with the Siwans), now Sudanese and Bedouin people...Make up your mind, where is your evidence that Siwa imported Sudanese Slaves??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.

The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."

http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

What is this rubbish bases on. Where are the White Red Headed Blue Eyed Siwans?? WHERE ARE THEY And to make it worse your source contradicts itself by claiming the Berbers and slaves DON'T ADMIX. Dumbfuck. Nothing in that proves squat.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Siwa Berbers

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Large groups of Siwa Berbers..

 -


 -
 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
http://www.outiofcairo.com/bio.html
^^^^
Liar7's end all source that claims the Siwans were originally "Red Heads" and mixed with black slaves...

but even his own page debunks him..

No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either.

Unfortunately for Liar7 the Elders of the Western Family are what we call "black Africans".

Siwa Elders

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -


Im gonna keep bitch slapping that ass with Truth!!!


quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

This is the scoop on your Siwa Berbers..
Many historical sources state that the Siwa Oasis was a major stop along the slave caravan route:



None of your sources mention anything about a large scale of slaves mixing with the Siwa. I will dismantle your argument with your own sources and prove your bias.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today.
http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

Where in this does it say that the Siwa Berbers(Whom are Pictured) mixed with the Slaves on a Large Scale??

Can you comprehend your won source??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Within the 20th Century, the first Egyptian ruler to visit the Siwa Oasis was Abbas II, but even he had to disguise his Austrian wife as an Egyptian army officer. He went there in style, with a vanguard consisting of 62 camels and a main entourage of 228 camels and 22 horses.."

The folks from Kufra were Nilo Saharan tribes like the Tebu.

Do you know where Kufra is?? Its a hop and skip away from Siwa and located in North africa AKA Lybia.

[img]http://maps.ihs.com/basin-monitor-ordering-service/africa/images/410000oil-and-gas-al-kufra-basin.jpg[img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufra

Kufra's natives are Nilo Saharan Tebu but Siwa and the Rest of North Africa have no native blacks..LMAO. Fail.

Also You still have not proven large scale Intermixing with Siwa Berbers.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The most pronounced slavery activity involved the enslavement of black Africans who were brought via trans-Saharan trade routes. For example, in the 1830s - a period of time when slave trade flourished - Ghadamis was handling 2,500 slaves a year[1]. Even though the slave trade was officially abolished in Tripoli in 1853, in practice it continued until the 1890s[2]. The British Consul in Benghazi wrote in 1875 to the effect that the slave trade had reached an enormous scale and that the slaves who were sold in Alexandria and Istanbul quadruple in price. This trade he says was encouraged by the local Government[2]. Adolf Vischer, writes in an article published in 1911 that:"...it has been said that slave traffic is still going on on the Benghazi-Wadai route, but it is difficult to test the truth of such an assertion as, in any case, the traffic is carried on secretly"[3]. At Kufra, the Egyptian traveller Ahmed Hassanein Bey found out in 1916 that he could buy a girl slave for 5 pounds sterling while in 1923 he found that the price had become 30 to 40 pounds sterling.[4]. Another traveler, the Muslim Danish Knud Holmboe, who crossed the Italian Libyan dessert in 1930 was told that slavery is still practiced in Kufra and that he could buy a slave girl for 30 Sterlings in the Thursday market."
^ a b Wright, John (2007). The trans-Saharan slave trade. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-38046-4.



None of this has anything to do with Siwa, Next..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The inhabitants of Siwa are Berbers mixed with Bedouins and the descendants of Sudanese slaves. The oasis has altogether about 25 000 inhabitants living in six settlements. The town of Siwa with about 12 000 inhabitants is the economic center of the oasis. The other places are Aghurmi, Abu Shuruf, Kamisa, Balad Al Rum and Bahi Al Din, in descending sequence according to their population."
http://www.segap.de/siwa-en.html

The record is consistent.

It is really consistant or are you playing google scholar?? First you claim(Your Evidence) says the slaves were Tebu(Did no Admix with the Siwans), now Sudanese and Bedouin people...Make up your mind, where is your evidence that Siwa imported Sudanese Slaves??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.

The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."

http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

What is this rubbish bases on. Where are the White Red Headed Blue Eyed Siwans?? WHERE ARE THEY And to make it worse your source contradicts itself by claiming the Berbers and slaves DON'T ADMIX. Dumbfuck. Nothing in that proves squat.


 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
 - <>  -

Just^ look like avarage Blk folk to me just saying!!!
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Dumbass if Slaves in Barbary went to affluent owners how the f-ck did Slaves alter the siwi Berbers who are an Isolated group of people and who don't admix with non Siwi Berbers.

You lying bitch, you are the one who cant put an argument together. If the Black Slave Trade could alter and produce black berbers the same is true for white Berbers.

Over a Million something white slaves went to Barbary and We are to expect not one went to Berber Villages and areas, BTW, Dumbass the Berbers live in the Major cities dumbfuck. Majority of black slaves ALSO, dumbass.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities

Did you not read what was posted about slaves being bought by the pashas sent to the harems and banios? Men being used for contrsuction projects?? Who had the money to purchase slaves??? Where would the major markets have been? And where the Fcuk did I say it had no effect on the native population?? Don't put words in my mouth just because you're not good at making a sensible argument. Obvioulsy the slaves will go the most affluent and would be sold in a market that is the most accesible to would be buiyers..that is the major urban centers. Comon sense!
Why you gettin all mad and callin me out my name? I thought we were trying to ascertain facts? I thought you were impartial. You seriously need to stop, look and read. The slaves in Siwa did not come from barbary pirates on the coast, Siwa was a stopping point on the Black slave caravan routes. That's how they ended up there. As for how much did the slaves contribute to the Siwa. One thing you may not know is that the Siwa population at one time was on the verge of extinction.

"However, by 1203 we are told that the population of the Siwa Oasis had declined to as low as 40 men from seven families due to constant attacks and particularly after a rather viscous Bedouin assault. In order to found a more secure settlement, they moved from the ancient town of Aghurmi and established the present city called Shali, which simply means town. This new fortified town was built with only three gates. An Islamic historian, Maqrizi, explains that soon after there were 600 people living in the Oasis."

With such a small population, the genetic contribution of even a small number of slaves would be significant. In any case we know that there was a steady influx of slaves over a period of time. A number of Beduin and Arabs mixed in with them as well.

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today"

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/siwahistory.htm.

Also for what it's worth the population at Siwa today is only about 23,000! A drop in the bucket with regards to the mass of North African Berbers..the greater majority being Eurasians looking...just like their ancestors.

Did I mention that about 25% of male Siwa Berbers are R carriers of the clade R-V88, which is the result of a back migration from the Middle East.

And NO, most of the Berbers do not live in the cities. How the hell do you think they were able to preerve their language and culture. Only recent times have they been moving to the city. That's another common sense demerit on your part.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt.

Many Berbers are farmers who grow wheat, barley, fruits, nuts, vegetables and olives for oil in the lowlands in winter and graze flocks of sheep and goats in the mountains during the summer. Some are still nomads who migrate with their camels and herds around the desert plateaus and oases. Their fortified villages are often located high on the mountain ridges and are composed of houses, a mosque, a fortified threshing floor (kasbah) and a gathering place for the assembly of elders (Jama'ah) which controls village life.

Increasing population density and poverty have caused many Berbers to migrate to the large cities of North Africa in search of employment, there to form an urban proletariat. Others have emigrated to France, which has the largest Berber population outside of the Maghreb, and also to Spain, Belgium and other countries of western Europe."

http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

Tsk..tsk.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Jari,

Liar7's end all source that claims the Siwans were originally "Red Heads" and mixed with black slaves...

but even his own page debunks him..

No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either.

Unfortunately for Liar7 the Elders of the Western Family are what we call "black Africans"


I don't necessarily stand by the statement about the orginal Siwans being redheads. My main purpose was to show you that Black slaves among the Siwa is a recorded fact. As far as "red heads", I suppose one might consider that many Berbers in the nearby Libyan desert during anicent times were portrayed by the Egyptians as light skinned with red hair. The real Siwa were part of a group of Libyan Berbers you know.

"The Eastern Berbers: those tribes inhabiting the oases of Jalo and Aujila (Jalu, Awjla or Awjilah) in Cyrenaica, Eastern Libya. These tribes were part of a larger group of Berber tribes inhabiting the various oases in the Libyan desert in both countries Libya and Egypt, of which only Siwa in Egypt survives to this day. In ancient times all the oases west of the Nile were inhabited by Berbers (Imazighen), and it is these oases that gave us the name "oasis", from Latin oasis, from Greek, from Coptic ouahe, in turn from Berber-Egyptian wh''t."

http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm.

 -

In fact Ramses II was discovered to have had red hair and believed to have been of Libyan Berber descent.

"Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redhead. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."
Bob Brier, The Encyclopedia of Mummies, Checkmark Books, 1998., p.153

"After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berbers of Africa."
Christiane Desroches Noblecourt, Colette Roubet, Lionel Balout, La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie, Paris, Rech. sur les Civilisations, 1985, p. 383

We just can't ignore things becuase they make it difficult for us to maintain our historical fantasies.

Oh and the people in your pictures show some admixture.

[Smile]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
At this point you are teetering on defeat, Grasping at straws becuase of your Failed Google scholarship.

I want all of Egyptsearch and the World to know I did not start this...

But I will Finish it!!


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"However, by 1203 we are told that the population of the Siwa Oasis had declined to as low as 40 men from seven families due to constant attacks and particularly after a rather viscous Bedouin assault. In order to found a more secure settlement, they moved from the ancient town of Aghurmi and established the present city called Shali, which simply means town. This new fortified town was built with only three gates. An Islamic historian, Maqrizi, explains that soon after there were 600 people living in the Oasis."


With such a small population, the genetic contribution of even a small number of slaves would be significant. In any case we know that there was a steady influx of slaves over a period of time. A number of Beduin and Arabs mixed in with them as well.

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today"

[/QB][/QUOTE]

What you fail to comprehend is the dates of your claims.

The population was down to 40 men(Supposedly) in 1203

The Senusi did not get a foothold on power until the 1800's

The Senussi or Sanussi refers to a Muslim political-religious order in Libya and the Sudan region founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Senussi

Fail..

Also you still have yet to establish that the Siwi Berbers mxed with slaves. None of your sources in your attempts to be a google scholar prove large scale admixture. Nor does this account for the fact that majority of Siwans are African in Appearance.

Once again..

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Your attempts to play google scholar fail..

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

[
Oh and the people in your pictures show some admixture.

[Smile]

So do yours...

Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Jari,

At this point you are teetering on defeat, Grasping at straws becuase of your Failed Google scholarship.

I want all of Egyptsearch and the World to know I did not start this...

But I will Finish it!!


There ya go. Act like you mean it..let me see your war face!

 -
LMAO!

What you fail to comprehend is the dates of your claims.

The population was down to 40 men(Supposedly) in 1203

The Senusi did not get a foothold on power until the 1800's

The Senussi or Sanussi refers to a Muslim political-religious order in Libya and the Sudan region founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Senussi


The main point is that the Siwa have always been a small population, with a lot of input from invaders and slaves. Even today they only number 23,000!


Also you still have yet to establish that the Siwi Berbers mxed with slaves. None of your sources in your attempts to be a google scholar prove large scale admixture. Nor does this account for the fact that majority of Siwans are African in Appearance.


Dude you read the quotes from the previous posts about the African features steming from Black slaves. In any case, you have to contend with the fact that in ancient times, Eurasian looking Libyans have been documented, most maghrebian Berbers are Eurasian looking, the neighboring Egyptians are lighter etc And we know that Siwa was on the path of a Black slave route. So then what are the odds that the were originally Black?

 -

See the folks in the upper right hand corner?


Also look how far North it is in Egypt.
 -

Greeks used to live near those parts.


"Siwa is closely linked to Libya, and many families have relatives in villages and oases across the border. Others are descendants of African blacks brought the oasis in past centuries by caravans that traded slaves. The original language Siwan is a Berber dialect, very different from Arabic. Siwan I learn in the family as their first language and then studied Arabic at school. The Siwan language is only passed down orally, there is no written form."

http://tourismeg2011.blogspot.com/2011/05/most-famous-oasis-in-egypt.html
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

The main point is that the Siwa have always been a small population, with a lot of input from invaders and slaves. Even today they only number 23,000!


Once again you have yet to post any evidence of large scale slave intermixing and the dates you posted were hundreds of years apart.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dude you read the quotes from the previous posts about the African features steming from Black slaves.

You also read from the Siwans themselves who claim to be unchanged.

Once again..

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

Once again...

None of your sources have offered any evidence of large scale admixing with slaves.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
In any case, you have to contend with the fact that in ancient times, Eurasian looking Libyans have been documented, most maghrebian Berbers are Eurasian looking, the neighboring Egyptians are lighter etc And we know that Siwa was on the path of a Black slave route. So then what are the odds that the were originally Black?

First you claim that it was the "Black Slave Route" Which one?? First you claim the Tebu wier enslaved there then Sub Saharans??

Once again you have yet to establish Large Scale Admixture with Slaves...

Speaking of Slavery...

COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Jari,

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

Dude, I have no dispute with that. I even posted on another thread about how Vikings would help in raiding villages in the Birish Isles and slavic countries to acuire slaves to sell to the Arabs. Folks in Venice also sold other Europeans to the Moors.

"The Venetians supplied the markets of the Saracens with slaves purchased from the Slavonian tribes which bordered on the Adriatic. Besides, as personal slavery and the traffic in slaves continued in all Mohammedan countries, Christian captives taken by Musselmans were sold in the markets of Asia and Northern Africa, and have continued to be sold till within our own times, when Christian slavery has been abolished in Barbary, Egypt, and the Ottoman empire, by the interference of the Christian powers, the emancipation of Greece, and the conquest of Algiers by the French."
http://www.magnumarchive.com/c/cyclopedia-of-knowledge-volume-4/Slavery-Slave.html

That's something you will rarely hear baout.

But I ain't trippin on some White vs. Black kick. I jsut want to weigh facts and get to truth. Who were the original Berbers in North Africa. I am saying they were mostly Eurasian.

"Additionally, recent studies have discovered a close mitochondrial link between Berbers and the Saami of Scandinavia which confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum and reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers. With regard to Mozabite Berbers, one-third of Mozabite Berber mtDNAs have a Near Eastern ancestry, probably having arrived in North Africa ∼50,000 years ago, and one-eighth have an origin in sub-Saharan Africa. Europe appears to be the source of many of the remaining sequences, with the rest having arisen either in Europe or in the Near East."
http://www.busuu.com/enc/topic/9140449.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
How the Lybians were Depicted by themselves and Egyptians[/b]

Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..

 -

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Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos

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26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

 -

 -

 -

 -

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


See the folks in the upper right hand corner?



 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
How the Lybians were Depicted by themselves and Egyptians[/b]

21st "Meshwesh" Lybian Dynasty..
Smendes

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Sheshonq II

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Pseusennes I
 -
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Golden_Mask_of_Psusennes_I.jpg

Pinudjem I

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The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen

 -

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


See the folks in the upper right hand corner?



 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
So now after citing a Dance website you jump to a Tourism website.

Does your site mention the "30 Families" of Arab Asiatics who invaded Siwa?? Does your Tourism site mention that Siwi Berbers are relatively unmixed, isolated, and did not mix much with outsiders..??

Once again from the Siwi not a Tourism site or a Dance Site...

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.


quote:
Originally posted by Liar7:



"Siwa is closely linked to Libya, and many families have relatives in villages and oases across the border. Others are descendants of African blacks brought the oasis in past centuries by caravans that traded slaves. The original language Siwan is a Berber dialect, very different from Arabic. Siwan I learn in the family as their first language and then studied Arabic at school. The Siwan language is only passed down orally, there is no written form."

http://tourismeg2011.blogspot.com/2011/05/most-famous-oasis-in-egypt.html


 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
So now after citing a Dance website you jump to a Tourism website.

Does your site mention the "30 Families" of Arab Asiatics who invaded Siwa?? Does your Tourism site mention that Siwi Berbers are relatively unmixed, isolated, and did not mix much with outsiders..??

Once again from the Siwi not a Tourism site or a Dance Site...

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

]http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm
[/b]


So basically you are denying that there was any mixing with slaves, even though we know that they live in the middle of a major slave caravan route?

Some your egyptian depictions look like regular Egyptians. There were not wearing Libyan dress etc. Many of the mummies had straight or wavy hair.

What about the Egyptian depictions of light skinned Libyans? What about Ramses II? What about the fact that Ptolemy mentions numbers of "Leuco-Ethiopians in Libya? I am not even going to post images from Greco Roman times.

But I think you might want to tak a look at their Y dna compared to other Berbers.


 -

E-m81 which is the Berber marker is only at 1.1 percent!!!! Compare that to the rest of the Berber groups. Look at their frequncies of R-V88. That means these folks cluster more with Central Africans than with Berbers. And B??? That's like Pygmy!


Also despite whatever anyone claims. The Siwa were not isolated.

The place was the site of a famous oracle, often visited by the Greeks.


"Located 4 km from Siwa is the temple Aghurmi. This temple probably housed the famous Greek oracle of Jupiter Amun (Darius) and dates to the 26th Dynasty, though there was possibly an earlier temple located on this spot. The temple has a forecourt, a vestibule and a sanctuary.



The base of the western column of the Doric-style facade, erected by the Greeks, remains. It's remarkable to note the decorations which show King Ahmose making offerings to the gods, and on the reverse side the Siwan governor doing the same. This suggests that the Siwa was far enough removed from the Egyptian Empire for her leaders to rule almost as king.



Yet this must have been a well known religious center, for when Alexander the Great came to Egypt for the first time, he headed directly to Siwa to consult the oracle in about 331. Thus, the religious significance of this site must have been known prior to Alexander's occupation and the beginnings of the Greek period of Egypt's history. In fact, it was this temple that the Persian King, Cambyses sent an army of 50,000 men to destroy in about 524 BC."


http://www.touregypt.net/aghurmi.htm

BUSTED! [Razz]
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
So basically you are denying that there was any mixing with slaves, even though we know that they live in the middle of a major slave caravan route?

Like how you are denying European slaves mixed with white Berbers??...

Mixing occured but no evidence has been posted of Large Scale Admixture..I suppose the blackest Siwi are Mixed but the majority of the population is Reddish Brown to wheat colored with African features. Matching Egyptian depictions of various Lybians.

One of your own sites claims that the Berbers don't mix with the slaves.

Speaking of Slave Admixture over a Million White Europeans were enslaved in North Africa(Should I continue to Post the info or do you want to continue with slavery??)


Some your egyptian depictions look like regular Egyptians. There were not wearing Libyan dress etc.

These people were Egyptianized Lybian Pharoahs, like the Nubians who did the same thing.

Let me guess the Meshwesh Lybians who built their Tombs in the Oaisis were Regualr Egyptians ...

Meshwesh: a powerful group of allied Berber tribes of eastern Libya, who were able to take control of the Egyptian throne (Shoshenq, Sheshenq). The name Meshwesh is but one form of the generic Berber appellative MZGH, as seen in such classical forms as MaXY-es and MaZY-es. In ca. 945 BC the the Libyan Berber king Shishenq, Sheshenq or Shoshenq, from the Meshwash tribe, succeeded in establishing the 22nd Dynasty in Egypt.

http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm


Many of the mummies had straight or wavy hair.

And...?? The signifigance please??


What about the Egyptian depictions of light skinned Libyans?

A Minority who were probably Greek/Med. Settlers.


What about Ramses II?

What about him??


What about the fact that Ptolemy mentions numbers of "Leuco-Ethiopians in Libya?


PHny, Mela and Ptolemy all refer to the Leucaethiopes, but they give no
description of the people thus designated.
Pliny in his Lib. v. cap. 8, Hist. Natur.
writes : Interiori autem ambitu Africae ad meridiem versus superque Gaetulos, inter-
venientibus desertis, primi omnium Libyaegyptii, deinde Leucaethiopes habitant.

Pomponius Mela, Be situ orbis, Lib. i. cap. 4, is somewhat more explicit : At
super ea quae Libyco mari abluuntur, Libyes Aegypti sunt, et Leucoaethiopes, et natio
frequens multiplexque Gaetuli. For Mela the Leucaethiopes appear to be between
the Troglodytes and the Nile, scarcely in Western Africa.


Agathemenos retires again behind those convenient intervening deserts, and
merely says that west of Egypt are situated among other nations the Aeu/cat^toTj-es.
De geographia, Lib. ii. cap. 5
[/QUOTE]

Funny part is they were called Leuko-Ethiopians not "Lybians" so they were associated with Blacks in some way. I even read they could have been an Albino colony of black Ethiopies, but who knows, as no description exists on the Leuko Ethiopians. Further damaging is if The Lueko Ethiopians were Blond and Blue Eyed resembling Southern Europeans how come the Greeks and Romans did not connect them with Germanics, themselves or any European Group but with Ethiopians..

Fail...


I am not even going to post images from Greco Roman times.

I wont Either, as If no black images exist and as If they were not called Maure AKA Black by the same people they are supposed to resemble in skin color..LMAO.


But I think you might want to tak a look at their Y dna compared to other Berbers.

I already posted they are genetically East African.

E-m81 which is the Berber marker is only at 1.1 percent!!!! Compare that to the rest of the Berber groups. Look at their frequncies of R-V88. That means these folks cluster more with Central Africans than with Berbers. Other Berbers have a high influence of European ancestry via Slavery and Invasion...makes sense the best preserved Berbers are African Genetically. Esp considering the Siwi are genetically East African and Nile Valley..


Also despite whatever anyone claimes. The Siwa were not isolated.

The place was the site of a famous oracle, often visited by the Greeks.


"Located 4 km from Siwa is the temple Aghurmi. This temple probably housed the famous Greek oracle of Jupiter Amun (Darius) and dates to the 26th Dynasty, though there was possibly an earlier temple located on this spot. The temple has a forecourt, a vestibule and a sanctuary.



The base of the western column of the Doric-style facade, erected by the Greeks, remains. It's remarkable to note the decorations which show King Ahmose making offerings to the gods, and on the reverse side the Siwan governor doing the same. This suggests that the Siwa was far enough removed from the Egyptian Empire for her leaders to rule almost as king.



Yet this must have been a well known religious center, for when Alexander the Great came to Egypt for the first time, he headed directly to Siwa to consult the oracle in about 331. Thus, the religious significance of this site must have been known prior to Alexander's occupation and the beginnings of the Greek period of Egypt's history. In fact, it was this temple that the Persian King, Cambyses sent an army of 50,000 men to destroy in about 524 BC."


How does this disprove that the Siwi were Isolated until recent times?? LMAO another fail...

As I said earlier you have yet to post or provide evidence of large scale Admixture with slaves. You google scholarship has failed.

You lost on the Leukoethiopians..

You Lost on the Egyptian Depiction of Lybians

You lost on the Siwi, Temgroute, Taureg, Tissint Berbers being slave descendants...

You lost on the White slave Influence on North Africa..

You lost on the Siwi...

 -


Bitch!!
 
Posted by Horus' (Member # 15917) on :
 
 -
Congrats. I hope it works.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Mixing occured but no evidence has been posted of Large Scale Admixture..

Really? Where is the Berber Y Dna. Whats with the Central African markers?? Lol.

One of your own sites claims that the Berbers don't mix with the slaves.

Apparently the originals must have died out.

And Greek setlers in the time of Seti?? Oh ok. [Roll Eyes]

The signifigance please..of wavy straight hair??

EURASIAN! Also look at their noses.

I even read they could have been an Albino colony of black Ethiopies
Lol.

Further damaging is if The Lueko Ethiopians were Blond and Blue Eyed resembling Southern Europeans how come the Greeks and Romans did not connect them with Germanics, themselves or any European Group but with Ethiopians.

Who said they were all Blond with blue eyes? I thought we said some were red haired. They obviously had different culture..languages and lived in Africa etc

I already posted they are genetically East African... Other Berbers have a high influence of European ancestry via Slavery and Invasion...makes sense the best preserved Berbers are African Genetically. Esp considering the Siwi are genetically East African and Nile Valley..

Nah dude, were talking Y dna. That nonsense you posted earlier refered to their mtDNA. Most Berbers in the Mahgreb show dominant frequencies of E-m81 which is their signature EAST AFRICAN marker, the other one is E-m78. Both of these are scarce in the Siwa Berbers. In fact their Y Dna is more Central African than East African. That means there is little relation. U6 is also absent in the mtDNA. Face it dude these ancestors of these people are not the ancestors of the Berbers. Don't be too blind to see. LOL!

How does this disporve that the Siwi were Isolated until recent times??

How isolated was it if Greeks built temples there? Did I mention it was a Roman province? Then you had Arabs and Beduins raiding the place, before it became a major stop for slave caravans. How isolated is that, really?

As I said earlier you have yet to post or provide evidence of large scale Admixture with slaves. You google scholarship has failed.

Yeah ok. [Roll Eyes] If you really understood anything about all of this you would have realized that the Y dna proves they ain't related to other Berbers but from African slaves brought in from deep within Africa.

You lost on the Leukoethiopians..

You Lost on the Egyptian Depiction of Lybians

You lost on the Siwi, Temgroute, Taureg, Tissint Berbers being slave descendants...

You lost on the White slave Influence on North Africa..


Oh sure.. [Roll Eyes]


Your argument for the Siwa is a lost cause.
Go get the Explorer or whoever's butt you habitually kiss on this forum to help you. Cuz as it is YOU LOSE! [Eek!]

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by melchior7:
[QB] Mixing occured but no evidence has been posted of Large Scale Admixture..

Really? Where is the Berber Y Dna. Whats with the Central African markers?? Lol.

The Siwi are Genetically East African and Nile Valley Africans..

The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Further Damaging is E-m81 is Eastern African derived anyway..

"Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades (table 1), (2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally, (3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup."

Cruciani et al. (2004)

The Highest Genes on that Chart in the Siwi are R1b a clad you claim is Eurasian in origin yet in the very same breath you claim that the Siwi are majority "Central African" derived.

You are all over the place google Scholar...

First the Siwi are Genetically Eurasian with R1b Dominating now they are Central African

Next you claim that the Siwi are mixed with Tebu(Nilo Saharan Lybians)

Then Sudanses Nilo Sharans, now "Central Afrians"...Pray tell when did Central Africans become a large player in the North African slave trade.


Apparently the originals must have died out. Who are the originals?? What are you talking about, where is your evidence for this outlandish claim?? LMAO, Now let me guess The Siwi wen from being Admixed to now being Dead replaced by black slaves..LOL

Then in another post the Siwi did not mix with their slaves..??

You are all over the place...

And Greek setlers in the time of Seti?? Oh ok.

LOL, so now Greeks are Berbers??


EURASIAN. Also look at their noses.

African have Wavy and Straight hair with no "Eurasian Admixture"...

The diversity of Africans has been proven 1 million times..

Next.

Their noses?? So now the only blacks are Blubbery Lipped, and nappy haired, but Im sure you will make an acception for the Big Lipped and Nosed Olmec, Chinese, and other Statues of Non Africans, Im sure your bitch ass will make an acception then.


How isolated was it if Greeks built temples there? Did I mention it was a Roman province? Then you had Arabs and Beduins raiding the place, before it became a major stop for slave caravans. How isolated is that, really? So now a Greek Temple and a Roman Province proves Siwi was not isolated...LMAO, Wait did your bitch ass not claim that the Greeks and Romans did not admix or interact with the White Berbers, but you will make an acception for the Siwi huh...

True Colors are showing..

Yeah ok. If you really understood anything about all of this you would have realized that the Y dna proves they ain't related to other Berbers but from African slaves brought in from deep within Africa.

The Dominant Genes are East African derived and does not prove admiture with slaves...


Your argument for the Siwa is a lost cause.
Go get the Explorer or whoever's butt you habitually kiss on this forum to help you. Cuz as it is YOU LOSE!


More Wishful thining, your google Scholar smokes and mirriors has failed. You lost a long time ago..

Once again..


[i]The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Further Damaging is E-m81 is Eastern African derived anyway.

The main reason people argue for East African origins are because of the predominance in Berbers of E markers. In the Siwa E markers are scarce.

The Highest Genes on that Chart in the Siwi are R1b a clad you claim is Eurasian in origin yet in the very same breath you claim that the Siwi are majority "Central African" derived.

Yes the R-V88 is part of a back migration into Africa. They reached all the way to cameroon which is where we find the higherst frequncies at 90% and among certian Chadic speakers. B is most common among Pygmies, also from Central Africa

You are all over the place google Scholar...

First the Siwi are Genetically Eurasian with R1b Dominating now they are Central African


I am sorry that you get confused so easily. They are central African markers orginally of Eurasian origin.


Next you claim that the Siwi are mixed with Tebu(Nilo Saharan Lybians)

Then Sudanses Nilo Sharans, now "Central Afrians"...Pray tell when did Central Africans become a large player in the North African slave trade.


I had thought they were mixed with Tebu although I don't know about the Tebu genetic markers. What's clear is that Arabs brought slaves from all over Africa.

"Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa."

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm.
Chad or further south is a likely candidate.


Now let me guess The Siwi wen from being Admixed to now being Dead replaced by black slaves..LOL

Bravo!


LOL, so now Greeks are Berbers??
No, that's your suggestion. Read what you wrote.

African have Wavy and Straight hair with no "Eurasian Admixture"...

Yeah ok. Someone must have forgot to tell these Siwa bothas to straighten they naps out. [Big Grin]

 -

The diversity of Africans has been proven 1 million times..

Yeah and just about all these diverse Africans are in North Africa or in the Horn of Africa among Afro Asiatic speakers..Go figure. [Eek!]

Next.

Their noses?? So now the only blacks are Blubbery Lipped, and nappy haired, but Im sure you will make an acception for the Big Lipped and Nosed Olmec, Chinese, and other Statues of Non Africans, Im sure your bitch ass will make an acception then.

So you claiming the Olmecs now too?? Lol!


Wait did your bitch ass not claim that the Greeks and Romans did not admix or interact with the White Berbers, but you will make an acception for the Siwi huh.

Ooh look at that ghetto style ad hominem..a true syptom of the butt hurt when they know they have lost. Lol!

Anyway, we have historical accounts of Greeks in Siwa, don't we?


The Dominant Genes are East African derived and does not prove admiture with slaves.

The maternal dna is East African but even that is of a different kind than most Berbers. Give it up already.


More Wishful thining, your google Scholar smokes and mirriors has failed. You lost a long time ago..

Your Siwa "Berbers" Are not related to other Berbers. Case closed!

Therefore you can't use them to argue that the orginal Berbers were Black.

I knew that the Y DNA was different from the begining and led you on just for hell of it. No, you certaintly aren't the Exlporer but you sure are worth a few good laffs!
[Big Grin]

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 

The main reason people argue for East African origins are because of the predominance in Berbers of E markers. In the Siwa E markers are scarce.


Yes the R-V88 is part of a back migration into Africa. They reached all the way to cameroon which is where we find the higherst frequncies at 90% and among certian Chadic speakers. B is most common among Pygmies, also from Central Africa


The B hg markers are native, due to Isolation represent the founding population of Siwa. This has nothing to do with slave trade as been demonastated 100 times that the Siwi Berbers did not mix with slaves.


I am sorry that you get confused so easily. They are central African markers orginally of Eurasian origin.

So now their R1b is Chadic in origin..LMFA, Firs Tibu, Sudansese, Chadic, Central African..whats next.

I had thought they were mixed with Tebu although I don't know about the Tebu or ultimate origins.

The Only Large scale slave trade in the area was of the Tibu, now suddenly you abandon your Tibu theory..

What's clear is that Arabs brought slaves from all over Africa.

Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm.
Chad is a likely candidate.


All Tests done on the Siwa indicate they are Nilotic and East African in origin meaning their B hg is native not derived from slavery. You are just scrambling like a rat to validate yourself because you lost this debate.

E1b1a, B2a1a are Nilotic and East African derived together with the Isolation and tendency not to intermarry it makes sense.

If the Siwi were so Chadian derived both with B and the R1 hg they would resemble Chadians, yet every image of a Siwi would stick out in Chad.

Your Boat is sinking quick..

Bravo!

LMAO

These are Chadian Slaves who replaced the Siwi Berbers...

(Im sure you will try your hardest to back peddle from this..LOL)

 -

 -

Give it up..

No, that's you're suggestion. Read what you wrote.

You are losing your mind, I said Siwa was Isolated you claim Greeks and Romans built temples..

You Serious..??

Is this how you debate??

You are becoming unhinged...

Yeah ok. Someone must have forgot to tell these Siwa bothas to straighten they naps out.

None of the men depicted are Siwi, more proof of your fail attempt to google Scholar.....(Dumbass)..LOL


BTW, lets see what others in that thread think about the Siwi..

by a poster Asauro
what I am really trying to say is that , A and B hgs ARE north African lineages ...

the Siwan B hg is native , it doesn't need to be 'Berberized' .....it is perhaps, because of the oasis isolation, it was not absorbed by the parallel clades of E1b1b in the region (M-78 / M-81 ) ..
on the other hand, R-V88 and J1 are the adapters of the Berber language , along with other non-native haplogroups in the region...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929711001649

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...years-ago.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...f-mankind.html
Last edited by asarou; 08-05-2011 at 06:58 AM.
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recently Berberized is a non starter , if we look at the big picture, they will rather have more chance being Arabized instead , in fact, it was their isolation that made the preservation of their ancestral tongue possible..

M-78 , A , B and other E clades are Berber haplogroups as well...

and from the last Cruciani paper , it seems that the Siwans are members of 'the major league'


http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12599&page=2

Unfortuneatly for you they seem to agree with me that the B and R1 Hgs represent the Founding Native population of Siwi..


Yeah and just about all these diverse Africans are in North Africa or in the Horn of Africa among Afro Asiatic speakers..Go figure.

African Diversity is noted by most mainstream Geneticists and scinetists, the fact you fail to know or realize this only further proves your ignorance..


So you claiming the Olmecs now too?? Lol!

Who the F-k said Im claiming Olmecs, Learn to Comprehend. Using your damn specifics(Nose Shape, Hair, etc) the Olmecs and other non Africans can be black, which is why Afrocentrics claim them because like you they rely on Eyeball anthropology.


Yeah ok. If you really understood anything about all of this you would have realized that the Y dna proves they ain't related to other Berbers but from African slaves brought in from deep within Africa

You realize you are the only motherf-ker that claims this all tests show the Siwi to be East African and Nilotic in origin. Dude you f-ing lose. Get over it...


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

 -

The Nail in your coffin is that the Siwi probably represent the best of what the original Berbers looked like with some influence from Nilo-Saharan speakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TX6o7R8LSg

"Put the Mouse down and walk away, You still might have a little dignity"

LMAO..
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Siwa Berbers

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Large groups of Siwa Berbers..

 -


 -
 -

 -

 -

Yes, this is what Siwas in general look like. And we know the Berber langage is East African in origin. They will always use the excuse "ohw" they were just slaves".

And at the same time they will leave out the invasions by the Romans, Greeks, Persians Turks / Ottomans and their Mamluk's, Arabs and their Saqaliba's.

It's like spinning in circles with these folks.

The extends of lies is awesome covering up one lie with another.

Like the Saami relation I spoke of earlier. [Smile]

They claimed they we related to Berbers, then I showed the enslavement of the Saami's by the Vikings and enslavement of North Africans taken to North Europe. And all of a sudden the Saami's weren't U6 but U5 and so on? [Wink]

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Folks can only spin in circles for so long with out vomiting from throwing off equilibrium. The Garrig Bitch is all over the place, in a frenzy to find an African people to make the Siwi as slaves, yet I have not changed my position which is supported by the very people who studied the Siwa and anyone familiar with the Siwa, even non Afrocentrics from Antrocivs and Antroscape know this.

Liar7 is a Google Scholar which is why he constantlty changes his argument. LMAO, and he thinks he can match wits with folks like Expolorer and Sundjaita..LOL.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
The B hg markers are native, due to Isolation represent the founding population of Siwa.

Nope. It is not.

"B2a1a originated in Central/Western Africa, while E1b1b1e is common in Eastern
Africa. Thus, it poses a question about the Sahara desert’s role in population movements
and exchanges."

And it's highest frequencies are in still central Africa. Observe.

"Haplogroup B2a1a (M109, M152, P32, P50) is the most commonly observed subclade of haplogroup B.

In Central Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 23% (7/31) of Ngumba males from southern Cameroon,[2] 18% (7/39) of Fali males from northern Cameroon,[6] 5% (1/21)[6] to 31% (4/13)[2] of Uldeme males from northern Cameroon, 10% (3/29) of Ewondo males from southern Cameroon,[6] 7% (1/15) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Chadic languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (1/18) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Adamawa languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (2/33) of Bakola males from southern Cameroon,[2] 4% (1/28) of Mandara males from northern Cameroon,[2] and 3% (1/31)[2] to 5% (1/20)[6] of Biaka males from Central African Republic.

In East Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Iraqw males from Tanzania,[2] 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Luo males from Kenya,[2] 8% (2/26) of Massai males from Kenya,[2] and 4.5% (4/88) of a sample of Ethiopians.[7]

In Southern Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 18% (5/28) of Sotho–Tswana males from South Africa,[2] 14% (4/29) of Zulu males from South Africa,[2] 13% (7/53) of an ethnically mixed sample of non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[7] 10% (5/49) of Shona males from Zimbabwe,[2] and 5% (4/80) of Xhosa males from South Africa.[2]

In North Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 12.5% (5/40) of Sudanese[7] and 2% (2/92) of Egyptians.[2]"

Also R-V88 has it's highest concentration in Central Africa.

This has nothing to do with slave trade as been demonastated 100 times that the Siwi Berbers did not mix with slaves.

Yeah? Where did you demonstrate that? Lol

Many believe that the Current Siwa genetics are not that of the orignal Berbers

"However we know that throughout history the oasis was called at by successive
human groups, like pilgrims travelling to Mecca, Mediterranean tradesmen, or Sahelian
slave merchants.
Siwa may even have been repopulated at a certain moment
in time by Libyan Berber-speakers driven from their land by Arab conquerors.
Lastly, it experienced a period of decline and faced between the ninth and twelfth
century AD a drastic demographic decline (Fakhry 1973). Therefore, the current
gene pool
of Siwa people could be related to recent migrations/founder effects or it
could be the result of the various genetic exchanges which occurred in the Past."
http://npu.edu.ua/!e-book/book/djvu/A/iif_kgpm_Errico_Becoming_Eloquent_pdf.pdf

We have many accounts of slaves being left in Siwa. If they did not mix with the local population then what happened to them?


So now their R1b is Chadic in origin..LMFA, Firs Tibu, Sudansese, Chadic, Central African..whats next.

I never mentioned Sudanese. If you are not familiar with where R-V88 is concentrated in Africa then look it up. I'll give you a clue, it ain't East Africa.

The Only Large scale slave trade in the area was of the Tibu, now suddenly you abandon your Tibu theory.

I have not abandoned anything. I need to look at the Tibu to see how they cluster genetically with the Siwa.

All Tests done on the Siwa indicate they are Nilotic and East African in origin meaning their B hg is native not derived from slavery. You are just scrambling like a rat to validate yourself because you lost this debate.

There is no certianty of that. B's highest concentration is among Pygmies.

If the Siwi were so Chadian derived both with B and the R1 hg they would resemble Chadians, yet every image of a Siwi would stick out in Chad.

They are obviously mixed with Arab as well as demonstrated by the presence of J in their genetics.

Your Boat is sinking quick..

Nah its smooth sailing for me on a most pleasant and tranquil sea. You on the other hand..


The Nail in your coffin is that the Siwi probably represent the best of what the original Berbers looked like with some influence from Nilo-Saharan speakers.

The funny part is that all the facts are before you, and you can't comprehend ****. There is very little shared genetic lineage between the Siwa and other Berbers. Most of the so called non Afrocentrics who wish to ignore the influx of slaves end up concluding that the Siwa were Sub saharan Africans that were berberized.

"Originally Posted by Elan-y
Not that really wrong. They only have 1.1% of E-M81 Hg . Many might be from a Nilotic/Chadic population that was recently Berberized.

That's a very low percentage for a berber population"


Why? Because they have no genetic afinity with other Berbers. All they have is the language and culture, which they could have been imposed or absorbed by them. The Berbers are in part the result of a migration out of the Horn of Africa by E M35 and it's dervicitve E-m81 which are believed to have carried AFRO-ASIATIC languages into North Africa.
And What's this??

 -

So now you want to imply that the Siwa were orginally Middle Eastern looking?? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Folks can only spin in circles for so long with out vomiting from throwing off equilibrium. The Garrig Bitch is all over the place, in a frenzy to find an African people to make the Siwi as slaves, yet I have not changed my position which is supported by the very people who studied the Siwa and anyone familiar with the Siwa, even non Afrocentrics from Antrocivs and Antroscape know this.

Liar7 is a Google Scholar which is why he constantlty changes his argument. LMAO, and he thinks he can match wits with folks like Expolorer and Sundjaita..LOL.


many on Antrocivsa nd elsewhere think that the Siwa are Berberized sub saharan Africans not related to real Berbers.

And I use google to back up what I already know, unlike you who just pulls crap out of your ass and expects every one to believe you.

As far as Explorer or Sundjiata, I have had the pleasure of arguing with both of them, and one thing I can say for sure, in comparison, you are definitely light work.

 -
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
many on Antrocivsa nd elsewhere think that the Siwa are Berberized sub saharan Africans not related to real Berbers.

Sure, but as I said only those who know what they are talking about know the Siwi are not "Berberized" Sub Saharans...


quote:



Aasaru
what I am really trying to say is that , A and B hgs ARE north African lineages ...


the Siwan B hg is native , it doesn't need to be 'Berberized' .....it is perhaps, because of the oasis isolation, it was not absorbed by the parallel clades of E1b1b in the region (M-78 / M-81 ) ..
on the other hand, R-V88 and J1 are the adapters of the Berber language , along with other non-native haplogroups in the region...


but the again who gives a Damn what I, You or anyone on any website thinks when we have the words of the people who studied the Siwi..


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.


Their B and other Hgs are native and links them to Nile Valley and East Africa.

And I use google to back up what I already know, unlike you who just pulls crap out of your ass and expects every one to believe you.

How Ironic, Everyone can read who was pulling sh3t out their ass. I mean how many times did you change your position?? You dumbass google scholar scrambling for some info to validate your B.S.

As far as Explorer or Sundjiata, I have had the pleasure of arguing with both of them, and one thing I can say for sure, in comparison, you are definitely light work.

Yeah but you lost this debate against me, so what does that say about you kid.??

Damn Dude, I ate you alive in this debate....
.... Jesus Christ..

LOL,

You're dismissed.

 -
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Sure, but as I said only those who know what they are talking about know the Siwi are not "Berberized" Sub Saharans

Says you. Is Aasaru an expert?

"Aasaru
what I am really trying to say is that , A and B hgs ARE north African lineages ...
the Siwan B hg is native , it doesn't need to be 'Berberized' .....it is perhaps, because of the oasis isolation, it was not absorbed by the parallel clades of E1b1b in the region (M-78 / M-81 ) ..
on the other hand, R-V88 and J1 are the adapters of the Berber language , along with other non-native haplogroups in the region..."

He doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. A and B are not North African lineages. And the links he posted do not support his claim.


but the again who gives a Damn what I, You or anyone on any website thinks when we have the words of the people who studied the Siwi..


"The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."


This article analyses the mtDNA of Berbers and notes that there is a difference between Egyptian Berbers and others. It concludes by saying that the differences are likely the result of mixing with migrating and surrounding populations. This does not come close to saying what you you think it means. I wonder why you can't see that? Lol. And aside from the differences in mtDNA. Again we have this.

 -
That says it all buddy.


How Ironic, Everyone can read who was pulling sh3t out their ass. I mean how many times did you change your position?? You dumbass google scholar scrambling for some info to validate your B.S.

All you did was nitpick of over minor issues about whether their ancestry was Chadic or Nilotic etc. The bottom line is that THEY DON"T CARRY the genetic marker of most Aftro Asiatic Berbers, capish?

Yeah but you lost this debate against me, so what does that say about you kid.??

Damn Dude, I ate you alive in this debate....
.... Jesus Christ..


Yeah? what color is the sky in your world???

How about a reality check. I have claimed that Berbers were mostly Eurasians in appearance, and I provided quotes from 14th century scholars like Ibn Battuta who did mention light skinned Berber tribes. Then your silly butt comes on here arguing about Black Berbers in Southern Morocco who I told you represent a minority in Morocco. You can even tell by their appearance that they look West African Lol. You disputed this and I posted a map to show that the town in question was in Southern Morocco near the Draa valley as I said. Lol. Then the Siwa Berbers are brought up as examples of what the original Berber looked like. I mentioned the Egyptian depctions of Lbyans Berbers which you claimed were Greeks. [Roll Eyes] I post a link on Ramses II being of likely Libyan descent with red hair and light skin which of course you ignore. You then tried to claim that Siwa were isolated and you were soon educated to the fact that the Siwa oasis is at a virtual crossroads, and has seen many people come and go. Once the site of a famous oracle frequented by Greeks and others. You read about how the population was nearly depleted and then attacked by Arabs and Beduins etc And finally a place where Slaves were sold. But you persited stubbornly in claiming that the Siwa were somehwo able to maintian their genetic integrity. So I dropped the bomb on you showing how their Y dna is drastically different from other Berbers, and has makers not even seen in other Berber groups. What you don't realize is that you have been put in position where you can not demonstrate any geneological connection of Siwa Berbers with the majority of other Berbers.

Even funnier is that you first post pictures of Dark skkinned Berbers to buttress your claim that the original Berbers were Black. Then in order to refute the claim that they are descendants of slaves you start posting Middle Eastern looking folk. Lol.

Buddy if you really think you won this debate, you are certianly beyond reason. And the only thing that might bring you around is professional therapy and some serious meds.

 -

Sorry dude.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 

Nope. It is not.

"B2a1a originated in Central/Western Africa, while E1b1b1e is common in Eastern
Africa. Thus, it poses a question about the Sahara desert’s role in population movements
and exchanges."

And it's highest frequencies are in still central Africa. Observe.

"Haplogroup B2a1a (M109, M152, P32, P50) is the most commonly observed subclade of haplogroup B.

In Central Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 23% (7/31) of Ngumba males from southern Cameroon,[2] 18% (7/39) of Fali males from northern Cameroon,[6] 5% (1/21)[6] to 31% (4/13)[2] of Uldeme males from northern Cameroon, 10% (3/29) of Ewondo males from southern Cameroon,[6] 7% (1/15) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Chadic languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (1/18) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Adamawa languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (2/33) of Bakola males from southern Cameroon,[2] 4% (1/28) of Mandara males from northern Cameroon,[2] and 3% (1/31)[2] to 5% (1/20)[6] of Biaka males from Central African Republic.

In East Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Iraqw males from Tanzania,[2] 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Luo males from Kenya,[2] 8% (2/26) of Massai males from Kenya,[2] and 4.5% (4/88) of a sample of Ethiopians.[7]

In Southern Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 18% (5/28) of Sotho–Tswana males from South Africa,[2] 14% (4/29) of Zulu males from South Africa,[2] 13% (7/53) of an ethnically mixed sample of non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[7] 10% (5/49) of Shona males from Zimbabwe,[2] and 5% (4/80) of Xhosa males from South Africa.[2]

In North Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 12.5% (5/40) of Sudanese[7] and 2% (2/92) of Egyptians.[2]"

Also R-V88 has it's highest concentration in Central Africa.


The B hg is East African in Origin, and by the way South Africans, Pygmies etc. Were not involved in the slave Trade. The Study is pretty clear that the Siwi are linked Via the Nile Valley..for example the B is present in the Sudan and Egypt and East Africa.

Many believe that the Current Siwa genetics are not that of the orignal Berbers

So Im Sure you are going to give us this "Many" people in the quote you post.

"However we know that throughout history the oasis was called at by successive
human groups, like pilgrims travelling to Mecca, Mediterranean tradesmen, or Sahelian
slave merchants. Siwa may even have been repopulated at a certain moment
in time by Libyan Berber-speakers driven from their land by Arab conquerors.
Lastly, it experienced a period of decline and faced between the ninth and twelfth
century AD a drastic demographic decline (Fakhry 1973). Therefore, the current
gene pool of Siwa people could be related to recent migrations/founder effects
or it
could be the result of the various genetic exchanges which occurred in the Past."[/i]

According to that quote the slave trade is but one possible effect on the Siwi. Despite that the Siwi still are genetically East African and Nilotic. Funny how majority of the people from that study are Meds and Arabs yet the Siwi still remain African in Phenotype, Language, and Customs.

Influences from the Middle East and East Africa are marked in Siwa, while southwestern European influences are observed in the Maghreb[i]

Yeah? Where did you demonstrate that? Lol


The Siwi Language is preserved and Historically to this day the Siwi do not marry with the Arab Families or slaves.

The Siwians themselves claim to be unchanged. I would believe a Siwan over a Google Scholar anyday.


I never mentioned Sudanese. If you are not familiar with where R-V88 is concentrated in Africa then look it up. I'll give you a clue, it ain't East Africa.

Who mentioned Sudanese?? You/I said Chad dumbass, read my quote you posted above this.


Why? Because they have no genetic afinity with other Berbers. All they have is the language and culture, which they could have been imposed or absorbed by them. The Berbers are in part the result of a migration out of the Horn of Africa by E M35 and it's dervicitve E-m81 which are believed to have carried AFRO-ASIATIC languages into North Africa.
And What's this??


They have Genetic Affinity to Nile Valley and East African Populations, where Afroasiatic and Berber originated.

You keep running and avoiding this like the plague but it wont go away..

[i]The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.



So now you want to imply that the Siwa were orginally Middle Eastern looking??

Where did I say that??

I mean can you go with out resorting to Red Herring and Strawman Fallacy arguments..??

Actually they look East African and Nile Valley(Whom the Link to Genetically)..

Sudanese

 -

Ethiopian

 -

Egyptian

 -

Siwans

 -


 -

The Link and resemblence in undeniable..LOL.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Says you. Is Aasaru an expert?


He doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. A and B are not North African lineages. And the links he posted do not support his claim.


Who says you are an expert?? You know nothing of what you are talking about. B originated in East Africa and is found in Nile Valley Populations. The B hg is native.


This article analyses the mtDNA of Berbers and notes that there is a difference between Egyptian Berbers and others. It concludes by saying that the differences are likely the result of mixing with migrating and surrounding populations. This does not come close to saying what you you think it means. I wonder why you can't see that? Lol.

It concludes by saying that the conclusion is old and complex. Try to claim that slavery is the answer is not supported by the study which links the Siwi to East African and Nile Valley populations.

I can see that for sure.


All you did was nitpick of over minor issues about whether their ancestry was Chadic or Nilotic etc. The bottom line is that THEY DON"T CARRY the genetic marker of most Aftro Asiatic Berbers, capish?

No you changed your position to fit the bill of which population was the better Slave. The Bottom Line is they STILL are Linked Genetically to Afro-Asiatic East African Populations. No Wishful thinking and slave fairytales wont change the facts..

.. Capish.

That says it all buddy.

Proves that the Siwi are the best preserved of the Berbers linking them to East Africa where the language arose in the first place. Even funnier is the Siwi have the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in that study yet they are supposed to be African slaves..


How about a reality check. I have claimed that Berbers were mostly Eurasians in appearance, and I provided quotes from 14th century scholars like Ibn Battuta who did mention light skinned Berber tribes.

Who cares, where did I say there were no Eurasian looking Berbers dumbfuck?? 14th provides plenty of time for European Immigrants to arrive in coastal North Africa.

hen your silly butt comes on here arguing about Black Berbers in Southern Morocco who I told you represent a minority in Morocco. You can even tell by their appearance that they look West African Lol

What does this have to do with anything, how does this disprove the fact that the Tamegroute Berbers are Berbers??


Then the Siwa Berbers are brought up as examples of what the original Berber looked like. I mentioned the Egyptian depctions of Lbyans Berbers which you claimed were Greeks.

Please provide a Post where I said the Lybian Depictions were Greeks


You then tried to claim that Siwa were isolated and you were soon educated to the fact that the Siwa oasis is at a virtual crossroads, and has seen many people come and go. Once the site of a famous oracle frequented by Greeks and others. You read about how the population was nearly depleted and then attacked by Arabs and Beduins etc And finally a place where Slaves were sold.

The Siwa Oasia was Isolated by various accounts. Further the Siwi Berbers moved to the East of the Oasisi and Further Isolated themselves. The Period between the Slave Trade and the Population decline was Hundreds of years. You have yet to provide evidence of a large scale Admixing or replacing of the Siwi Population by slaves.

So I dropped the bomb on you showing how their Y dna is drastically different from other Berbers, and has makers not even seen in other Berber groups. What you don't realize is that you have been put in position where you can not demonstrate any geneological connection of Siwa Berbers with the majority of other Berbers.

And their DNA is Genetically East African and Nile Valley.


So I dropped the bomb on you showing how their Y dna is drastically different from other Berbers, and has makers not even seen in other Berber groups. What you don't realize is that you have been put in position where you can not demonstrate any geneological connection of Siwa Berbers with the majority of other Berbers.

Show me the "Middle Eastern Folk" LMAO, You are such a failure. Every Siwi I posted are East African and Nile Valley in Appearance.


Buddy if you really think you won this debate, you are certianly beyond reason. And the only thing that might bring you around is professional therapy and some serious meds.

I don't think I won, I know I did. You claims about Black Berbers steming from slaves is unfounded. As the Original Berbers probably resembled the Siwi.

The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa.

While the other Berbers are the result of European influences..(Slavery, Invasions etc.)

the first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
I don't think the Siwi Girls look Middle Eastern they look East African/Nile Valley..

Siwi
 -

Eritrea
 -

Siwi
 -

Egyptians
 -

Siwans
 -

Ethiopian
 -

Siwi
 -
^^^
You would have no problem seeing those Elders as Tewahedo Christian Preists in Ethiopia.

Central Africans...??? Come on dude, The blackest of the Siwi would stick out in Chad.

anyway Im done, if you don't see a problem with claiming every single black Berber as the result of slaves because of your fixed notion of what you think the Berbers looked like oh well.

No where did I say there were no Eurasian Berbers, Ive always maintained there were black and white berbers.

Ive spent way to much time and energy on this.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
B originated in East Africa and is found in Nile Valley Populations. The B hg is native.

He went on to say it was Notrh African. It's certianly not a Berber marker

"Haplogroup B is localized to sub-Saharan Africa, especially to tropical forests of West-Central Africa. After Y-haplogroup A, it is the second oldest and one of the most diverse human Y-haplogroups. It was the ancestral haplogroup of not only modern Pygmies like the Baka and Mbuti, but also Hadzabe from Tanzania, who often have been considered, in large part because of some typological features of their language, to be a remnant of Khoisan people in East Africa."


Proves that the Siwi are the best preserved of the Berbers linking them to East Africa where the language arose in the first place.

Nope and their language is an offshoot of Libyan Berber


Even funnier is the Siwi have the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in that study yet they are supposed to be African slaves.

That's from the Arbs and Beduins, obviously.


You claims about Black Berbers steming from slaves is unfounded. As the Original Berbers probably resembled the Siwi.

And you can not prove any of this especially not the later.

And these look Middle Eastern to me.

 -


The B hg is East African in Origin, and by the way South Africans, Pygmies etc. Were not involved in the slave Trade. The Study is pretty clear that the Siwi are linked Via the Nile Valley..for example the B is present in the Sudan and Egypt and East Africa.

A and B are the haplogroups of the first Africans which were Khoisans and pygmies. The E Haplogroup which is predominante among most Berbers comes out of East Africa at a much later date.

The Siwi Language is preserved and Historically to this day the Siwi do not marry with the Arab Families or slaves.

The Siwians themselves claim to be unchanged. I would believe a Siwan over a Google Scholar anyday.


Have at then.

"The alleles O483, O934 and O03 (649&689) which were discovered in the population of Siwa could be specific to this population. These alleles probably come from external contributions, although the inhabitants of Siwa are known for their will to preserve the integrity of their community by marriages within the widened family. Siwa was an important stage for the caravans. The foreigners were to sleep outside the city and the contacts were limited (Fakhry A., 1973). But it appears not very probable that no contact took place.

Moreover, if O01 and O02 are the alleles characteristic of Berber (bus being present at an important frequency), one should find only these two alleles in the population of Siwa (if it is really endogame). Indeed, the very important reductions of populations which occurred in the history of the oasis should have contributed to an important genetic impoverishment. However it is not the case since one notes polymorphism in the studied sample. Lastly, one will note the relatively important frequency of the allele O03 (649&689) which derives from a rare allele having in more two additional specific changes.
Conclusion

The study of the polymorphism of the allele O at the Berber ones of the oasis of Siwa enabled us to characterize 3 alleles not yet described so far. The presence of these alleles cannot be explained only by genetic insulation and the history of this population. Exchanges with the populations of passage or the populations surrounding had to take place. The results obtained confirm all the interest of the study of gene ABO in genetics of the populations."
http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/ftopic571.php.


Questions about the linguistics:

"Carles Múrcia has recently completed his PhD at Barcelona, and put it up online: La llengua amaziga a l’antiguitat a partir de les fonts gregues i llatines. I'm afraid it's in Catalan, but if you can read French or Spanish you shouldn't have much difficulty (although it would be nice if he had translated more of the Greek quotations.) So far I've read the parts about Egypt and Cyrenaica. For Egypt, he points out there is no linguistic evidence that the Lebu / Libyans or Meshwesh, or any of the other Western Desert tribes recorded before the Mazices of the Byzantine era, spoke Berber, nor even that Siwa spoke Berber before the Byzantine era. This fits with my own observations that Siwi is simply too much like Western Libyan Berber to be the survival of an ancient Berber language of the Western Desert - although the activists who urge Imazighen to date their calendar from the "Amazigh" conquest of Egypt by the Libyans may not be happy with this cautious conclusion! For Cyrenaica, on the other hand, he shows that a number of words recorded in classical sources have convincing Berber etymologies, suggesting that Awjila may represent the continuation of a very early Berber-speaking population."

So Im Sure you are going to give us this "Many" people in the quote you post.

Here is just and example, just look at some of the comments on here.

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=MtK3sCs-Jlk


They have Genetic Affinity to Nile Valley and East African Populations, where Afroasiatic and Berber originated.
You keep running and avoiding this like the plague but it wont go away..


That is only one side of their DNA. What about the Y dna? Where is the signature Berber haplotypes? Obviously these folks don't descend from the same male lineages as the majority of Amazigh so to use them as an example of the orginal Berbers doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

"The distri-bution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplo-group–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa,the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have beenreported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations(31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speakinggroups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001;Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]); in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare(1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/

Nuff said.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
anyway Im done, if you don't see a problem with claiming every single black Berber as the result of slaves because of your fixed notion of what you think the Berbers looked like oh well.

No where did I say there were no Eurasian Berbers, Ive always maintained there were black and white berbers.

Ive spent way to much time and energy on this.


I never said all Black Berbers were descendant of slaves. I only posted some articles that mentioned that the gnawa in Morocco and some of the Siwa were descendant of slaves. Certianly many Black Berbers were not slaves. Many of the ones in the Southern Sahara were probably assimilated as the Moorish empire expanded Southward over time.

The main contention was with Dana Marniche and the her OP. You seemed to be saying that the real Berbers were Blacks and the rest descendant of White slaves. If this is not what you believe than we are wasting each other's time.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
^^^^^^^^
My contention is that the Berbers are a mixed group to begin with who arose from populations out of East Africa and the Eastern Saharah and were likely black. They obviously mixed with Europeans and Eurasian from an early date to create light skinned and white Berbers.

My problem is with this idea that the Black Berbers are descended from slaves which is a hyocritical stance to take given the European Genetic influence on the White Berbers and the European slave trade one can make the same argument.

Obviously the Siwi mixed with other people but I think they were native Nile Saharans rather than slaves. The Siwi were very selective in who they inter married with and they Isolated themselves and built Fotresses to bar outsiders. I doubt a large scale mixing with slaves occured, it makes much more sense that the Berbers mixed with native Nilo Sahrans(if anyt large scale mixing occured).

BTW, You certainly make it seem that you believe Black Berbers=Slaves.


"The alleles O483, O934 and O03 (649&689) which were discovered in the population of Siwa could be specific to this population. These alleles probably come from external contributions, although the inhabitants of Siwa are known for their will to preserve the integrity of their community by marriages within the widened family. Siwa was an important stage for the caravans. The foreigners were to sleep outside the city and the contacts were limited (Fakhry A., 1973). But it appears not very probable that no contact took place.

Moreover, if O01 and O02 are the alleles characteristic of Berber (bus being present at an important frequency), one should find only these two alleles in the population of Siwa (if it is really endogame). Indeed, the very important reductions of populations which occurred in the history of the oasis should have contributed to an important genetic impoverishment. However it is not the case since one notes polymorphism in the studied sample. Lastly, one will note the relatively important frequency of the allele O03 (649&689) which derives from a rare allele having in more two additional specific changes.
Conclusion

The study of the polymorphism of the allele O at the Berber ones of the oasis of Siwa enabled us to characterize 3 alleles not yet described so far. The presence of these alleles cannot be explained only by genetic insulation and the history of this population. Exchanges with the populations of passage or the populations surrounding had to take place. The results obtained confirm all the interest of the study of gene ABO in genetics of the populations."


I don't understand how this means that a large scale replacement or admixture occured. I never denied mixing occured I denied the idea that slaves made the Siwi go from Blond Kabyles to Brown East Africans, makes no sense.

Also the Siwi carry the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in your chart yet they jumped all over slaves??
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
BTW, You certainly make it seem that you believe Black Berbers=Slaves.

But I don't.

I never denied mixing occured I denied the idea that slaves made the Siwi go from Blond Kabyles to Brown East Africans, makes no sense.

But it seems that you did with your quotes about the Siwa never mixing with foreigners. One last question, what happened to the light sklined Libyans that the Egyptians depicted and red haired berbers like Ramses II?
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
But I don't.

Then I have no argument with you then, this was the main reason why I was arguing.

But it seems that you did with your quotes about the Siwa never mixing with foreigners. I did not mean to imply that the Siwa never mixed with foreigners, I was against the notion of a replacement or large scale admixure with slaves. The Siwi certainly mixed with Merchants and some slaves but I don't see how a large scale influx of Central African slaves can produce a people who look identical to Nile Valley and East African populations. Even other Africans of the diaspora who are heavily mixed like Dominicans don't look like that.

I believe the Siwi are still legit Berbers I don't see why that should be denied of them, esp. when they speak the language and practice the culture. I think if the Siwi Mixed they mixed with a Native Nile-Saharan group who inhabited the Oasis who would be similar to the Tibu. This Mixture would be as old as the Mixing of the maghrebian Berbers with European/Eurasian settlers. This is what I think folks on Antrocivics were getting at as this would explain their looks and customs.

One last question, what happened to the light sklined Libyans that the Egyptians depicted and red haired berbers like Ramses II?

In my opinion I don't think the Light Lybian depicted by Egyptians would have looked like Blond Kabyles or Riffians. I think they would look similar to people like Kadaffi and his son/Family. So In essence these people are still in North Africa. I believe Red Headed N.A were rare and are rare today but still present in N.A. Again there is good evidence that the Lybians depicted were a mixture of European settlers on the Coast of North Africa, This would help explain why berbers have such a signifigant amount of European DNA.
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
Ramses II was not berber...
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Frigi et al.

Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.


Oasis Berber language
Sioua language
Siouah language
Siouwa language
Siua language
Siuwah language
Siwah language
Siwi language
Syouah language
Zenati language (Siwa)
Broader Terms
Berber languages
Egypt--Languages
Sources
found: Linguasphere, 1999 (Siwa, Siwah, Siouwa; Siwah oasis; Egypt (As-Sahra Al-Gharbiyah)
found: Biebuyck, D. African ethnonyms, 1996 (Siwa (Egypt); Berber language)
found: Ethnologue, 2009 (Siwi; a language of Egypt; northwest desert, Siwa Oasis; several isolated villages in west oasis; alt. names: Oasis Berber, Sioua, Siwa, Zenati)


East Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


And these look Middle Eastern to me.

 -


That's a weak argument,


 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^^^^^^
My contention is that the Berbers are a mixed group to begin with who arose from populations out of East Africa and the Eastern Saharah and were likely black. They obviously mixed with Europeans and Eurasian from an early date to create light skinned and white Berbers.

My problem is with this idea that the Black Berbers are descended from slaves which is a hyocritical stance to take given the European Genetic influence on the White Berbers and the European slave trade one can make the same argument.

Obviously the Siwi mixed with other people but I think they were native Nile Saharans rather than slaves. The Siwi were very selective in who they inter married with and they Isolated themselves and built Fotresses to bar outsiders. I doubt a large scale mixing with slaves occured, it makes much more sense that the Berbers mixed with native Nilo Sahrans(if anyt large scale mixing occured).

BTW, You certainly make it seem that you believe Black Berbers=Slaves.


"The alleles O483, O934 and O03 (649&689) which were discovered in the population of Siwa could be specific to this population. These alleles probably come from external contributions, although the inhabitants of Siwa are known for their will to preserve the integrity of their community by marriages within the widened family. Siwa was an important stage for the caravans. The foreigners were to sleep outside the city and the contacts were limited (Fakhry A., 1973). But it appears not very probable that no contact took place.

Moreover, if O01 and O02 are the alleles characteristic of Berber (bus being present at an important frequency), one should find only these two alleles in the population of Siwa (if it is really endogame). Indeed, the very important reductions of populations which occurred in the history of the oasis should have contributed to an important genetic impoverishment. However it is not the case since one notes polymorphism in the studied sample. Lastly, one will note the relatively important frequency of the allele O03 (649&689) which derives from a rare allele having in more two additional specific changes.
Conclusion

The study of the polymorphism of the allele O at the Berber ones of the oasis of Siwa enabled us to characterize 3 alleles not yet described so far. The presence of these alleles cannot be explained only by genetic insulation and the history of this population. Exchanges with the populations of passage or the populations surrounding had to take place. The results obtained confirm all the interest of the study of gene ABO in genetics of the populations."


I don't understand how this means that a large scale replacement or admixture occured. I never denied mixing occured I denied the idea that slaves made the Siwi go from Blond Kabyles to Brown East Africans, makes no sense.

Also the Siwi carry the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in your chart yet they jumped all over slaves??

Fundamentally what that study tells is that Siwas have been there long this comprises with the artifacts and hyroglyps you've shown. And it shows they have some admixture. Which is historically correct. I already summed up the invaders of that area, this led to mixture.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
But I don't.

Then I have no argument with you then, this was the main reason why I was arguing.

But it seems that you did with your quotes about the Siwa never mixing with foreigners. I did not mean to imply that the Siwa never mixed with foreigners, I was against the notion of a replacement or large scale admixure with slaves. The Siwi certainly mixed with Merchants and some slaves but I don't see how a large scale influx of Central African slaves can produce a people who look identical to Nile Valley and East African populations. Even other Africans of the diaspora who are heavily mixed like Dominicans don't look like that.

I believe the Siwi are still legit Berbers I don't see why that should be denied of them, esp. when they speak the language and practice the culture. I think if the Siwi Mixed they mixed with a Native Nile-Saharan group who inhabited the Oasis who would be similar to the Tibu. This Mixture would be as old as the Mixing of the maghrebian Berbers with European/Eurasian settlers. This is what I think folks on Antrocivics were getting at as this would explain their looks and customs.

One last question, what happened to the light sklined Libyans that the Egyptians depicted and red haired berbers like Ramses II?

In my opinion I don't think the Light Lybian depicted by Egyptians would have looked like Blond Kabyles or Riffians. I think they would look similar to people like Kadaffi and his son/Family. So In essence these people are still in North Africa. I believe Red Headed N.A were rare and are rare today but still present in N.A. Again there is good evidence that the Lybians depicted were a mixture of European settlers on the Coast of North Africa, This would help explain why berbers have such a signifigant amount of European DNA.

I believe the majority probably looked like Kadaffi as well but I beleive that their phenotype resulted from the influx of folks from the Middle East 20,000 years ago.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Ramses II was not berber...

It is not 100% certain he was Berber but apparently some feel that his phenotype and hair color was unusual for an Egyptian and closer to that of Libyan Berbers.

"Ramses II , according to L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, study titled 'La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).' Balout and Roubet concluded that "the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis" of the pharaoh's hair showed that Ramses II was "a fair-skinned man related to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterranean peoples, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa."
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Ramses II was not berber...

It is not 100% certain he was Berber but apparently some feel that his phenotype and hair color was unusual for an Egyptian and closer to that of Libyan Berbers.

"Ramses II , according to L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, study titled 'La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).' Balout and Roubet concluded that "the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis" of the pharaoh's hair showed that Ramses II was "a fair-skinned man related to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterranean peoples, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa."

/Resources/ramses2ankh.jpeg[/IMG]
 -
LOL French people..fair skinned? NO.
berber?No

He looked beja to me.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Ramses II was not berber...

It is not 100% certain he was Berber but apparently some feel that his phenotype and hair color was unusual for an Egyptian and closer to that of Libyan Berbers.

"Ramses II , according to L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, study titled 'La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).' Balout and Roubet concluded that "the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis" of the pharaoh's hair showed that Ramses II was "a fair-skinned man related to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterranean peoples, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa."

/Resources/ramses2ankh.jpeg[/IMG]
 -
LOL French people..fair skinned? NO.
berber?No

He looked beja to me.

Yes very very Beja looking. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
 
 -
Seti I looked 100% Beja. the features that he and Ramses had ..are 'typically' Beja.

 -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
LOL The Malcontent and Kookoohead are all getting their brains splattered.

The earliest depiction of Libyans comes from the Old Kingdom. Very few have their paint in tact but according to the writings of Oric Bates these early Libyans were of the same brown (chocolate) complexion as the Egyptians. Fair types were not portrayed until the late Middle Kingdom.

The Malconent speaks of a migration from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa during the Last Glacial Maximum when in fact there is more evidence of the opposite-- hg E1b1b and even early E2 found in Iberia as well as cattle remains of African origin.

He speaks of African "diverse" looks associated with Afroasiatic speakers but where did the Afroasiatic langauge originate? Certainly not in Iberia! LOL The language phylum originated in Africa where the vast majority of languages are still found. Only Semitic is an outlier found in Southwest Asia.

As for mitchondrial U6 that has been discussed many times in this forum. U6 is found in its highest frequency and diversity in North Africa NOT in the Near East and is just as much African as Y-chromosomal E.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
The Malconent speaks of a migration from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa during the Last Glacial Maximum when in fact there is more evidence of the opposite-- hg E1b1b and even early E2 found in Iberia as well as cattle remains of African origin.

Oh ok. So folks and their livestock can cross into Europe but not the other way around. Yeah that seems pretty logical. [Roll Eyes]

And U6 stems from U in the Near East. So it spread into North Africa but that doesn't mean that it's carriers didn't resemble folks who carried the ancestor clade in the Near East. Oh wait... let me guess because they had entered Africa they magically became Black. [Eek!] Dude step off, you're too dumb for you're own good.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.

 -

BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people (ancestors of millions of African Americans) wearing their Fulani hairstyle and with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record. [Wink]

You're right, there are traces of dark paint left which makes me question the existence of fair Libyans altogether.

Remember this picture.

 -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Oh ok. So folks and their livestock can cross into Europe but not the other way around. Yeah that seems pretty logical. [Roll Eyes]

Of course the other way happened how else do you explain white Berbers, dimwit?!

quote:
And U6 stems from U in the Near East. So it spread into North Africa but that doesn't mean that it's carriers didn't resemble folks who carried the ancestor clade in the Near East. Oh wait... let me guess because they had entered Africa they magically became Black. [Eek!] Dude step off, you're too dumb for you're own good.
First of all proto-U6 has not been located in the Near East or anywhere. Second, it is not even found among eastern Berber speakers like the Siwa so this puts a hole in the 'Near Eastern' expansion. Third, how the original carriers look like is irrelevant to how their descendants look like. Genes for phenotype have no correlation to the actual uniparental signature. By the way, what do you think Near Eastern people 30 kya looked like? Do you think they were white red-heads?? LOL Lastly the actual estimated age of U6 in general is dated to 50 kya. You do realize that this coincides when humans first left Africa to colonize Eurasia, right?! How do you think these peoples looked like? Rather yet, since the Near East is right next door to Africa why do you assume there is a phenotypic disconnect??

By the way, you can read more about U6 as well as M1 and other Eurasianized Afrian lineages here!
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

And these look Middle Eastern to me.

 -

Of course because they are obviously of mixed ancestry. Though as was shown to you the MAJORITY of Siwans do not look like this, but are very much obviously black!

Unlike you we don't resort to cherry picking even if it means picking what the majority look like! LOL [Big Grin]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Of course the other way happened how else do you explain white Berbers, dimwit?!

I hope you realize I am talking prehistoric times, which would place Eursasians in the Magrheb around the time that Berber cultures were first forming.


First of all proto-U6 has not been located in the Near East or anywhere. Second, it is not even found among eastern Berber speakers like the Siwa so this puts a hole in the 'Near Eastern' expansion.

Oh ok U6 is unrelated to it's parent clade in the Near east and just pops up indepenently in North Africa. [Roll Eyes] And the distinct genetic signatures of Siwa (not having U6 etc) was one of the reasons why I expressed doubt they were descendants of actual Berbers as opposed to being a group of "Berberized" Nilo-Saharans.
I guess you missed that.

Third, how the original carriers look like is irrelevant to how their descendants look like. Genes for phenotype have no correlation to the actual uniparental signature. By the way, what do you think Near Eastern people 30 kya looked like? Do you think they were white red-heads?? LOL Lastly the actual estimated age of U6 in general is dated to 50 kya. You do realize that this coincides when humans first left Africa to colonize Eurasia, right?! How do you think these peoples looked like? Rather yet, since the Near East is right next door to Africa why do you assume there is a phenotypic disconnect??

No, I don't think they looked like "White" red heads, I think they looked Middle Eastern. Also, rephrasing your quote, North Africa is next to the Near East and Southern Europe, why exactly would you assume that a tropical African type is that one that spills over? Where do you think Eurasian traits begin, in Anatolia? On the contrary, Eurasisn traits began in North Africa. You can see Mediteranean traits in some East Africans. I think you fail to realize that Africa is an arbitrialy drawn continent whose boundries do not reflect any real racial demarcations. One could easily include the Arabian penisisula or Palestine which lies on the African tectonic plate as part of Africa. The same thing with Asia. It's the simpleton who believes that once someone crosses the Bosphorus in Europe all the folks on the other side are suddenly racially Asians becuase they happen to be on the Asian continent.


As far as U6 being 50,000 years that is an extreme estimate.

"U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior movement from East Africa back to the Maghrib and the Near East. This migration coincides with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West Africa, had more localized expansions."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
So according to that study, Afroasiatic was found in Eurasia 30.000 years ago?


Every linguist and historian knows that's major B.S. But if you want to, you can give some examples....of root words.


Plus U6 only makes up 9% frequency in some of the population. (and where is the prove, of all the "probability" historical female early migrationist / pastorals).


Now if it originated in western Asia, how come it's not found there in large numbers? Or spread to other regions of the world?


And I remember you wrote in an earlier post that U6 wasn't maternal....when here they say it is?


Than again they use the word...probably.....also on needs to understand that during the time of that study and before. Most studies were based Eurocentric. These are the words of Sharah Thiskoff. Who did an extensive study on Africans.

Also, prominent linguistics have steated that the Afroaciatic phylum derived from Northeast Africa Nuba leak (if I'm not mistaking).

Lastly, how did these "chicks" supposedly moved into all these places by themselves?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
photo of tomb wall, Ramses III
1186–1155 BC

Note: The color of the belt/strap that is around the waist and across the chest of the two black figures in the center panel
is dark brown

Note: The Libyan from the same wall section painting is not dark brown


_________________________________________________
 -

^^^Libyan

Foreign prisoners of Ramesses IIIFaience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu.

Note: the second figure from the left, again his belt/strap is the color brown.

Note: the Libyan's skin is not this color brown



 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago


 -

Tarim Mummy, Northern China bordering Russia


 -


.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
photo of tomb wall, Ramses III
1186–1155 BC

Note: The color of the belt/strap that is around the waist and across the chest of the two black figures in the center panel
is dark brown

Note: The Libyan from the same wall section painting is not dark brown


_________________________________________________
 -

^^^Libyan

Foreign prisoners of Ramesses IIIFaience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu.

Note: the second figure from the left, again his belt/strap is the color brown.

Note: the Libyan's skin is not this color brown



 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago


 -

Tarim Mummy, Northern China bordering Russia


 -


.

LYIng As.. - can you tell me why you keep posting photos from Mathilda's web-site as if you have discovered some information that there were some European-related people in the Sahara 6,000 years ago who made mummies before the Africans.

Her 2009 posting about Takarkori wasn't answered FOR A REASON. LOL!



http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/the-six-thousand-year-old-mummies-from-takarkori-libya/

Do you actually think Euronuts such as yourself would not have jumped all over this if such were the case. [Big Grin] [Roll Eyes]


BTW - repeated posting of Fulani ancestors and the same mulatto wearing a Fulani hairstyle is not going to change the matter.

[Cool]


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=005359#000000
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Of course the other way happened how else do you explain white Berbers, dimwit?!

I hope you realize I am talking prehistoric times, which would place Eursasians in the Magrheb around the time that Berber cultures were first forming.


First of all proto-U6 has not been located in the Near East or anywhere. Second, it is not even found among eastern Berber speakers like the Siwa so this puts a hole in the 'Near Eastern' expansion.

Oh ok U6 is unrelated to it's parent clade in the Near east and just pops up indepenently in North Africa. [Roll Eyes] And the distinct genetic signatures of Siwa (not having U6 etc) was one of the reasons why I expressed doubt they were descendants of actual Berbers as opposed to being a group of "Berberized" Nilo-Saharans.
I guess you missed that.

Third, how the original carriers look like is irrelevant to how their descendants look like. Genes for phenotype have no correlation to the actual uniparental signature. By the way, what do you think Near Eastern people 30 kya looked like? Do you think they were white red-heads?? LOL Lastly the actual estimated age of U6 in general is dated to 50 kya. You do realize that this coincides when humans first left Africa to colonize Eurasia, right?! How do you think these peoples looked like? Rather yet, since the Near East is right next door to Africa why do you assume there is a phenotypic disconnect??

No, I don't think they looked like "White" red heads, I think they looked Middle Eastern. Also, rephrasing your quote, North Africa is next to the Near East and Southern Europe, why exactly would you assume that a tropical African type is that one that spills over? Where do you think Eurasian traits begin, in Anatolia? On the contrary, Eurasisn traits began in North Africa. You can see Mediteranean traits in some East Africans. I think you fail to realize that Africa is an arbitrialy drawn continent whose boundries do not reflect any real racial demarcations. One could easily include the Arabian penisisula or Palestine which lies on the African tectonic plate as part of Africa. The same thing with Asia. It's the simpleton who believes that once someone crosses the Bosphorus in Europe all the folks on the other side are suddenly racially Asians becuase they happen to be on the Asian continent.


As far as U6 being 50,000 years that is an extreme estimate.

"U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior movement from East Africa back to the Maghrib and the Near East. This migration coincides with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West Africa, had more localized expansions."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

Tell us Melchior what did people look like in the Middle East 30,000 years ago. I would love it hear it.
\
And thank you for your consideration of this matter. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Sure, but as I said only those who know what they are talking about know the Siwi are not "Berberized" Sub Saharans
I have claimed that Berbers were mostly Eurasians in appearance, and I provided quotes from 14th century scholars like Ibn Battuta who did mention light skinned Berber tribes...

Ummm you most certainly have not all you told us is that Ibn Battuta like al Dukkali called the Tuareg Kel Antasar, Kel Ghiris, and Yantaras clans "white' "Abyad" as they are today in Mali and Niger.

We told you what the word "abyad" meant in Arabic on this forum. your European people are called ahmar "red" not abyad


Like you said - "Tuareg are not white" in the western European sense of the word.

al-Dukkali wrote like Battuta, “To the North of Mali there are tribes of white Berbers under the rule of its sultan namely Yantasar, Tin Gharas, Madusa and Lamtuna” (Levtzion & Spaulding, 2003, p. 54). These so-called ‘whites’ are the ancestors of the modern-day “golden brown” to dark-brownish Tuareg still known under their same names in Mali and Niger.

So much for your wqhite Berber evidence.

This is my last call. Still waiting for any single Berber tribe before the 16th century that is designated fair in color.


Why are you here arguing with people about black Moroccans. What proof do you have the Masmuda did not occupy the Riff coastal Morocco and rule Western Algeria all of the coast of Morocco 1000 years ago as all known scholarship says they did. you lose this arguement by avoiding history.


There are no black Berbers all of the peoples known as Masmuda, Zanata, Garawa, Maghrawa, Sanhaja Luwata, Kitama, Hawara, Mazikes were Ethiopians or "aswadun" or black and near black in color in the history books.

Its over! [Frown]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Tell us Melchior what did people look like in the Middle East 30,000 years ago. I would love it hear it.
And thank you for your consideration of this matter.


Apparenly some had mixed with cold adapted Neanderthals and had crania seemed to be in between African and "Caucasian" types. And this was 100,000 years ago!

"100,000 YA. The Homo sapiens Skull Skhul 5 was discovered by T. McCown near Mount Carmel, Israel in 1932. McCown first described the skull in 1936 in the Bulletin American School of Prehistoric Research (Issue 12). The remains of 10 individuals were excavated from Skhul cave in 1932 and are widely considered to be the earliest examples of H. sapiens. The Skhul skulls show much variation in the expression of modern traits. With a cranial capacity of 1520 cc, features common to modern skulls are the high forehead, expanded frontal portion of the braincase, and rounded back of the skull. Differences from modern skulls include its more pronounced brow ridges, and prognathic lower face. Skhul 5 has been suggested as providing evidence of hybridization between humans and Neanderthals. Current evidence, indicates that Neanderthals and early modern Homo sapiens alternately occupied the Near East during cold and warm periods, respectively, for thousands of years. Custom Display Stand available below.


The Qafzeh VI skull was found in 1934 by R. Neuville in a Mousterian industry level. It belonged to an adult man. The present study shows that, for the greatest part of its characteristics—high cranial vault, upright frontal, orthognathism, presence of a canine fossa, shape of the orbits, etc.—the Qafzeh man is closer to Upper Paleolithic Homo sapiens than to Neandertal man. Some of its traits, the supra-orbital torus for example, recall the Neandertalian characteristics but without ever attaining the development observed on the latter.
Braincase Calculated cranial capacity (Pearson) 1568 cm3 Maximum".
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Ummm you most certainly have not all you told us is that Ibn Battuta like al Dukkali called the Tuareg Kel Antasar, Kel Ghiris, and Yantaras clans "white' "Abyad" as they are today in Mali and Niger.

And I call BS. Some Tuaregs are Eusasian looking and many more so in the past.

Also in the name of logic, if Berbers were Black like other Africans, then why does Battutta make special mention that the land of the Blacks begins in Mauretania?? If you travel across the Sahara Today you will find that this still pretty much true. Coincidence???

And you forget that whatever the term Batutta used he considered the distinction to be more than just a matter of complexion. As he said White people shouldn't eat the food of Blacks. I'm sure you are are smart enough to understand the impication.

"Among the trees on the road between Walata and Malli, there are some with fruits that resembled plums, apples, apricots, and peaches. Battuta described other edible plants, including the Karité palm and the Baobab fruit, which yielded a sort of flour. Battuta also mentioned the large calabashes that were common to the region.

Travellers in this region needed neither money nor food for their trip. Instead, they carried slabs of salt, glass trinkets [beads] and perfumery, which they traded for their needs. The local blacks had millet porridge, chicken, milk, rice, flour and fonio to trade. Battuta warned that the rice was bad for white men, and wrote that the fonio was better.

"Battuta listed the names of towns downriver on the Niger below Zagha. There was Tunbuktu [Timbuktu], then Kawkaw [Gao], then Muli in the land of the Limuyyun, at the frontier of the kingdom of Malli. Beyond Muli lay Nupe (located in northwestern Nigeria), "one of the biggest cities of the blacks. Their sultan is one of their great sultans. A white cannot go there because they would kill him before he arrived there." "


The context makes it clear they are talking along racial lines. Most of your afrocentic arguments cater to the simple minded. I guess some people can't see how specious and non sequitur many of them are. That's not the case with me.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
And here is something else to consider.

"In Morocco, and north Africa, there is a problem of racism towards Black people. Called “Black Africans,” they are considered descendants of slaves and labeled “hartani”—or “aâzi”. Blacks in Morocco, be they students, migrants, from the South of the Sahara or others, are victims of discrimination...
In Morocco there is a prejudice towards people with darker skin shades. In Morocco and the rest of the Maghreb, Black people have long been subject to different forms of discrimination. To better understand this phenomenon, this reporter met African students, Moroccan citizens and an association.
A different kind of racism
According to Pierre Vermeren, a historian specialized in North African societies, there is a different degree of racism towards the Black Moroccan as against the Black foreigner.

“There are several categories of Blacks in Morocco. The first includes the endogenous Black populations who are directly descended from slaves and are now mixed with the Moroccan population. The second concerns the Black peoples of the South. They are concentrated in oases entirely populated by Black Africans and are yet to mix with Berbers or Arabs. The third includes Africans, mostly Senegalese, who come on pilgrimage to the Medina of Fez. The last category concerns students and migrants—those most affected by racism.”

For the majority of Moroccans, this anti-Black attitude is reflected in their behavior towards Black foreigners who either haven’t integrated with the general population or who aren’t Muslim. The underlying superiority complex dates back to Antiquity. At that time, there were thousands of Black slaves in Morocco. Some were part of the Moroccan military corps and the Civilian Guard, while others fulfilled various tasks given to them during the reign of Ahmed El-Mansour Eddahbi or even that of Moulay Ismail in the 16th and 17th centuries.

But, "slavery was never officially abolished. The French Protectorate at the beginning of the 20th century, simply forbid the act. But the initiative never came from Moroccan society itself,” says the historian while making reference to a book written by Mohammed Ennaji Soldats, esclaves et concubines which, according to him, perfectly illustrates this period.

"It is rare for a Moroccan woman to marry a Black man"

For Nadia, a fifty something year old Moroccan, the problem runs deeper than common racism. “It’s even deeper than that. This attitude is passed down from generation to generation. It is extremely unusual, for example, for a Moroccan woman to marry a Black man, even if he is a Muslim. It’s just not done. The only condition under which this might be ‘tolerated’ would be if the man didn’t have too obvious Black features. People worry about what their family or friends would think. The woman in question is likely to hear her mother or a friend tell her that there are ‘enough good Moroccan men for one not to have to go looking for a Black one.’”

According to Nadia, this attitude is commonplace in Morocco, and everywhere else in the Maghreb. “Even for a man who is usually freer for the fact that he is the one who passes down his name and religion to the children, to marry a ‘woman of color’ is not accepted by his family and friends. And this is even more difficult when a non-Muslim is involved. Mixed marriages are already rare in our culture—so marrying a non-Muslim or a Black Moroccan is simply unacceptable. This applies to my father’s generation, my generation, and also my children’s generation.”

Black in Morocco: The Nightmare of Students and Immigrants

“The most violent forms of racism are towards Black students. At the Cité international universitaire (international students dorms) in Rabat, it is visible. Students coming from all parts of the African continent to further their studies are regrouped amongst themselves, or even isolated. They do not share the same facilities with the ‘white’ Moroccan students. It’s all very communitarian,” says Hervé Baldagai, former Secretary-General of CESAM (Confederation of African Foreign Students in Morocco). “Black people face difficult conditions and regular abuse. We are called ‘bloody Negroes’ in Arabic, asked to leave the country, called ‘AIDS carriers’. We even have stones thrown at us. It’s unbearable. We face administrative difficulties, especially when go for our student permit or scholarships.”
http://www.moroccoboard.com/news/1124-racism-in-morocco

All of this is very bizzare indeed if the Moroccans were all originally Blacks. That is one hell of a monumental turn around of events if I ever seen one.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:



BTW - repeated posting of Fulani ancestors and the same mulatto wearing a Fulani hairstyle is not going to change the matter.


 -

how can we be sure these are not Turbans? Also the middle figure has a lighter round thingy on top and the woman on the upper left has a small one there. This may be carrying an object because the other women don't have it.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Does it really matter?! That painting was proven to be a fake period! Also, even the scholars who thought it to be real pointed out that they resemble fulani hairstyle worn by women! Quit with the same stupid strawman your lyingass!
quote:
[qb]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB]
^ Please explain to us Malcontent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

Since the Malcontent refuses to answer my query I'll do it.

The English name "Marocco" originates from Spanish "Marruecos" or the Portuguese "Marrocos", from medieval Latin "Morroch", which referred to the name of the former Almoravid and Almohad capital, Marrakesh.[10] In Persian and Urdu, Morocco is still called "Marrakesh".

From Wiki.

Who are the Almoravid and Almohad people?
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]

Wow!!!
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Bochart derives the name of the Mauri, or Moors, from Mahur, the West.

"the name which, as at present used, is loosely applied to any native of Morocco, but in its stricter sense only to the townsmen of mixed descent. In this sense it is also used of the Mahommedan townsmen in the other Barbary states.' It has been by some connected with the Hebrew and Phoenician mahur, western." MFIYA.

And in case your wondering, MFIYA derives from MY FOOT IN YO ASS!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]

As our DownYard sistren recently said, no matter how
many times repeated a lie remains what it is, a lie.

I've proven you wrong on this flat out bullshit
etymology before but pushing a blackout agenda
I see you refused to learn from a good schooling.

First of all Morocco derives from Marakesh but
here's the word on Mauretania of which what's
now northern Morocco was a part.

 -

Source:
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854), MAURETA´NIA

Bottomline, Mauri = blacks per researches of the
Eurocentric white man named William Smith, LLD.

Those of you bamboozled by Melchior's bullshit
should remember that the blind led by the blind
results in both of them laying face flat in a
septic drainage ditch somewhere covered in odure.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Of course the malcontent is left with no choice but to white-wash the Moors as the epitomical Berbers themselves. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Bottomline, Mauri = blacks per researches of the Eurocentric white man named William Smith, LLD.

And we have experts who say the term goes back to the Phoenicians and Carthaginins even Today the we use the related term Mahgreb. Meaning the West.

Bottomline is I say Tomato and you say Tomaahto.

Please tell me why this Berber king Juba II is not depcited as Black?

 -

Here is another North African from Roman times. Kinda looks like Kadaffi.


 -
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
The word Moor is one applied by Europeans meaning "dark skin" is "dark skin" relative to paler Europeans.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:


 -

Coat of arms of Alcanadre-La Rioja-Spain
Depicting slayed heads of the Moors

Ludovico Sforza, below, (also known as Ludovico il Moro
(1452 – -1508)) was Duke of Milan from 1489 until his death.

"Il Moro" literally means "The Moor", an epithet said to have been given to Ludovico because of his dark complexion.
 -

Ludovico Sforza, a member of the Sforza family, he was the fourth son of Francesco Sforza. He was famed as a patron of Leonardo da Vinci and other artists, and presided over the final and most productive stage of the Milanese Renaissance. He is probably best known as the man who commissioned the The Last Supper.

Ludovico Sforza was born on July 27, 1452, at Vigevano, in what is now Lombardy. He was the fourth son of Francesco I Sforza and Bianca Maria Visconti and, as such, was not expected to become ruler of Milan.

"Il Moro" literally means "The Moor", an epithet said to have been given to Ludovico because of his dark complexion. Some scholars have posited that the name Moro came from Ludovico's coat of arms, which contained the mulberry tree, "mora" in Italian. In modern Italian "moro" is also a synonym for "bruno", the masculine equivalent of "brunette" ("mora" in Italian).


Typical lighter skinned noble:
 -

King Edward


related thread discussing the pitch black versions of Moors:

early art depicting 12th cent The Almohad Dynasty, BERBERS /MOORS

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005374

.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Oh yeah Morocco was all Black. Well they must have forgot.

"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery inMorocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not aMedieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were firstimported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th
century) to be employed in the sugar industry. Thisindustry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil floodedthe European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco camelater, in the 17th-18th century. Moulay Ismail (1672-1727)
created a slave army (on the model of the Ottoman
Janissaries) which consisted not only of blacks importedfrom West Africa but of black populations enslaved in-situin Morocco's Saharan oases. This enslavement of felowMuslims was condemned unanimously by jurists, specially those of the Qayrawayyin in Fez, but the sultan was strongenough to ignore the reprimands of his own clergy. This kind of mass slavery in the employ of the state dwindled during the 19th century but its legacy can still be experienced in Morocco today in the following ways:
Several Sufi brotherhoods (namely the Gnawa, the Aisawiyya and the Hamadsha) are directly descended from the blackslave regiments. They are known for their use of music and trance in the treatment of mental disorders (Gnawa music,
often in "fusion", is now a part of the World Beat scene).For the Gnawa especially, descent from slaves is a mark of distinction; they trace their spiritual roots back to Bilal, the Abyssinian slave who won his freedom in Islam and was chosen by the prophet Muhammad to be the one who calls to prayer."
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h- ica&month=0309&week=c&msg=VgdzCH1TOBy5lYcksIFTAg&user=&pw=


They must've forgot their roots.

"Today, Slavery was never formally abolished. The French protectorate in the early 20th century, had banned the practice. But the initiative never came to Moroccan society itself, "says the historian who refers us to the work of Mohammed Ennaji, soldiers, slaves and concubines, which he illustrates this period.

"It is rare for a Moroccan marries a Black"

For Nadia, a Moroccan woman aged fifty years, it is not simply a racial problem. "It's deeper than that. It is a sentiment that has been perpetuated from generation to generation. It is extremely rare, for example, a Moroccan marries a Black, a Muslim. This does not happen. The only case which is, strictly speaking, 'tolerated' is when the man was not too Negroid features. There are fears the famous 'that will say on' family and / or the environment. The woman will often hear his mother near him or say he is 'good enough Moroccans not to pick up a Black'. "

In the words of Nadia, the feeling is widespread in Morocco, and elsewhere in the Maghreb. "Even for a man who is generally more 'free' as it is he who sends his name and his religion to his children, marry a woman of color is not accepted by his entourage. And it's even harder when he's not one or a non-Muslim. Mixed marriages are already very rare in our culture, then with black non-Moroccan, not Muslims, it is never acceptable. Whether my generation, the generation of my father or my children. "

Being Black in Morocco: a nightmare for students and immigrants"
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2491510/1/.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL That depends on how "black". We know that African Americans of a certain complexion especially light ones get mistaken for native Egyptians in Egypt. It's only those that are really dark or very black that are easily spotted as foreigners and subject to discrimination. The same is true in other North African countries like Morocco.

Of course the reason is quite obvious-- because most North Africans especially along the coast are mixed.

Racial political definitions of black are the opposite in Africa, where any light hue makes one non-black.

This typical Moroccan woman for example would be labeled 'black' in America and in much of Europe but not in her country of origin.

 -

Similarly Halle Berry could blend right in with the 'non-black' locals in Morocco.

 -

 -

^ Both women would be considered 'black' in the West including the Moroccan on the right, but the Moroccan would not be considered 'black' in her home country. On the contrary, the darker more pristine black woman on the left would be discriminated against as a foreign 'black' person in Morocco.

Modern Moroccans mixed ancestry is common knowledge to everyone but willful ignoramuses like yourself, but the question is was such the case a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago?? Have you forgotten the very topic of this thread?-- Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
By the way...
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass:


Note: the Libyan's skin is not this color brown
 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

Hey, Lyinass! Didn't we tell you about a dozen times already that you can't expect the skin complexion of a 6,000 year old dried up corpse to look the same as it did when alive??!

I take it you think Tut's mother then must have had a pale gray complexion as well.

 -

And maybe this Danish mummy was also black in life?

 -

*sigh* [Embarrassed] A mind is a terrible thing to waste in your case UCCF (United Caucasian College Fund)
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
As if one can tell the race of a person off a stylistic un colored bust. I guess after Al-takruri bitch slapped your arse on the Etymology of Moor you are becoming dilerious.

 -
Bust of Septimius Serverus..

 -

 -

Art work depicting Skin Tone/Phenotype of Septimius

Mind you Septimius was a Mulatto half Italian Half Berber/Moor.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
[b]


Please tell me why this Berber king Juba II is not depcited as Black?

 -

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


 -

 -

Next..
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
All this Ranting and Raving wont save you from..

1) the etymology of the Word Moor..

2) The Origin of the Berber Language...

3) The Presence of Blacks in North Africa and the fact of Black Berbers..

More Art work...


 -  -
 -  -  -
 -


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Blah..Blah


 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] All this Ranting and Raving wont save you from..

1) the etymology of the Word Moor..

2) The Origin of the Berber Language...

3) The Presence of Blacks in North Africa and the fact of Black Berbers..

More Art work...


 -  -

^^^^ you do realize this crude mosiac art proves absolutely nothing . The above mosiacs look like possibly Mediterranaean or Middle Eastern non-African types but might actually be Tuareg looking types

Here the mosaic art is ambigous and I don't see why people keep posting this as if it clears something up. The above women mosiac could easily be people who look like this:
 -

 -

 -
 -
 -












 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
The fact is that people like the Moroccan female are considered black as well.

The term Aswadi is used to describe them.

Also a lot of the time Arubans vice versa Moroccans are getting mixed up.


For Egypt, some one of dark complexion could be mistaken for native Egyptian as well, depending on facial features.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL That depends on how "black". We know that African Americans of a certain complexion especially light ones get mistaken for native Egyptians in Egypt. It's only those that are really dark or very black that are easily spotted as foreigners and subject to discrimination. The same is true in other North African countries like Morocco.

Of course the reason is quite obvious-- because most North Africans especially along the coast are mixed.

Racial political definitions of black are the opposite in Africa, where any light hue makes one non-black.

This typical Moroccan woman for example would be labeled 'black' in America and in much of Europe but not in her country of origin.

 -

Similarly Halle Berry could blend right in with the 'non-black' locals in Morocco.

 -

 -

^ Both women would be considered 'black' in the West including the Moroccan on the right, but the Moroccan would not be considered 'black' in her home country. On the contrary, the darker more pristine black woman on the left would be discriminated against as a foreign 'black' person in Morocco.

Modern Moroccans mixed ancestry is common knowledge to everyone but willful ignoramuses like yourself, but the question is was such the case a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago?? Have you forgotten the very topic of this thread?-- Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century

Yesterday, at the Dutch talent show, The Voice Of Holland.


 -

 -


 -


 -
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QB] The fact is that people like the Moroccan female are considered black as well.

The term Aswadi is used to describe them.

Also a lot of the time Arubans vice versa Moroccans are getting mixed up.


For Egypt, some one of dark complexion could be mistaken for native Egyptian as well, depending on facial features.



"Black" is a term with no hard definition. It is defined by different people differently. probably the most appropriate people to define them would be them.
A lot of the Western world see people as "Black" "white" and other, perhaps "Asian"

In earlier time periods there weren't these primary racial classifications. people identied themselves by nationality rather than color of skin.

For example many Arabs would not call themselves black or white.
They would not call themselves mulatto either. It's an outdated term that also has a derogatory tone for some people. Halle Berry doesn't call herself that, or Barack Obama or Tiger Woods.
People try to pressure them to choose for politicla reasons

I would imagine these people would prefer to have lived in an earlier time period when people weren't identified so strongly by skin color.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
 -


 -


 -


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QB] The fact is that people like the Moroccan female are considered black as well.

The term Aswadi is used to describe them.


Also a lot of the time Arubans vice versa Moroccans are getting mixed up.


For Egypt, some one of dark complexion could be mistaken for native Egyptian as well, depending on facial features.



"Black" is a term with no hard definition. It is defined by different people differently. probably the most appropriate people to define them would be them.
A lot of the Western world see people as "Black" "white" and other, perhaps "Asian"

In earlier time periods there weren't these primary racial classifications. people identied themselves by nationality rather than color of skin.

For example many Arabs would not call themselves black or white.
They would not call themselves mulatto either. It's an outdated term that also has a derogatory tone for some people. Halle Berry doesn't call herself that, or Barack Obama or Tiger Woods.
People try to pressure them to choose for politicla reasons

I would imagine these people would prefer to have lived in an earlier time period when people weren't identified so strongly by skin color.

The term black conjoints with Africa, not with Asia.

Fact is lot of North Africans would consider themselves much like Latin Americans. They see themselves in such" light".

Sorry.


 -
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
She keeps posting images of Turks and Kurts...for some odd reason. [Wink]

While they have nothing to do with ancient African history.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
people who aren't black

 -
 -

 -
 -
 -


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 



quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]

As our DownYard sistren recently said, no matter how
many times repeated a lie remains what it is, a lie.

I've proven you wrong on this flat out bullshit
etymology before but pushing a blackout agenda
I see you refused to learn from a good schooling.

First of all Morocco derives from Marakesh but
here's the word on Mauretania of which what's
now northern Morocco was a part.

 -

Source:
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854), MAURETA´NIA

Bottomline, Mauri = blacks per researches of the
Eurocentric white man named William Smith, LLD.

Those of you bamboozled by Melchior's bullshit
should remember that the blind led by the blind
results in both of them laying face flat in a
septic drainage ditch somewhere covered in odure.


 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ It astounds me how dumb people are actually willing to be in their great lengths at denying that Moor meant black, and thus the Moors were indeed black people!
 
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB]




The greek word
Αραπη colloqually meaning nigger came from the turkish word Arap for black people or Arab from the word Arab.
http://www.dictionary.gen.tr/dictionary/tr2en/arap.html
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
As if one can tell the race of a person off a stylistic un colored bust. I guess after Al-takruri bitch slapped your arse on the Etymology of Moor you are becoming dilerious

All he did was disagree. He has his source I have mine. Moor came from athe Phoenicians.

And those mosaics don't look like Black to me. Sorry
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL That depends on how "black". We know that African Americans of a certain complexion especially light ones get mistaken for native Egyptians in Egypt. It's only those that are really dark or very black that are easily spotted as foreigners and subject to discrimination. The same is true in other North African countries like Morocco.

Of course the reason is quite obvious-- because most North Africans especially along the coast are mixed.

Racial political definitions of black are the opposite in Africa, where any light hue makes one non-black.

This typical Moroccan woman for example would be labeled 'black' in America and in much of Europe but not in her country of origin.

 -

Similarly Halle Berry could blend right in with the 'non-black' locals in Morocco.

 -

 -

^ Both women would be considered 'black' in the West including the Moroccan on the right, but the Moroccan would not be considered 'black' in her home country. On the contrary, the darker more pristine black woman on the left would be discriminated against as a foreign 'black' person in Morocco.

Modern Moroccans mixed ancestry is common knowledge to everyone but willful ignoramuses like yourself, but the question is was such the case a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago?? Have you forgotten the very topic of this thread?-- Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century

I totally disagree about the first woman and the lady on the magazine cover on the right. You are totally off your rocker. Do you realize that there are plenty of Arab Americans in the US, Moroccans, Egyptians who look like the first woman and who are not considered Black? What about all the Hispanics? Are they considered Black?? The woman on the magazine cover looks Spanish and not Black at all! Dude your mind seems to be stuck in the 1950's with the one drop rule. That and excessive drug use, I'm sure.

See when you have dumb people like Ms Cathy Hughes here who considers hereself Black.

 -

She has to tell people she is Black or they would never know.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
No Altaruri disproved the Phonecian lie. Your duck, dodging and bobbing to avioid the Etymology for Moor wont change it Etymology.

This is not a simple He has his and I have mine stalemate, Al-Takruri has given credible evidence you have not.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the

1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number

in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.

m-h-r ≠ m-g-r

m-g-r ≠ west

m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


All he did was disagree. He has his source I have mine. Moor came from athe Phoenicians.

And those mosaics don't look like Black to me. Sorry


 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL That depends on how "black". We know that African Americans of a certain complexion especially light ones get mistaken for native Egyptians in Egypt. It's only those that are really dark or very black that are easily spotted as foreigners and subject to discrimination. The same is true in other North African countries like Morocco.

Of course the reason is quite obvious-- because most North Africans especially along the coast are mixed.

Racial political definitions of black are the opposite in Africa, where any light hue makes one non-black.

This typical Moroccan woman for example would be labeled 'black' in America and in much of Europe but not in her country of origin.

 -

Similarly Halle Berry could blend right in with the 'non-black' locals in Morocco.

 -

 -

^ Both women would be considered 'black' in the West including the Moroccan on the right, but the Moroccan would not be considered 'black' in her home country. On the contrary, the darker more pristine black woman on the left would be discriminated against as a foreign 'black' person in Morocco.

Modern Moroccans mixed ancestry is common knowledge to everyone but willful ignoramuses like yourself, but the question is was such the case a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago?? Have you forgotten the very topic of this thread?-- Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century

I totally disagree about the first woman and the lady on the magazine cover on the right. You are totally off your rocker. Do you realize that there are plenty of Arab Americans in the US, Moroccans, Egyptians who look like the first woman and who are not considered Black? What about all the Hispanics? Are they considered Black?? The woman on the magazine cover looks Spanish and not Black at all! Dude your mind seems to be stuck in the 1950's with the one drop rule. That and excessive drug use, I'm sure.

See when you have dumb people like Ms Cathy Hughes here who considers hereself Black.

 -

She has to tell people she is Black or they would never know.

The first woman is considered a Aswadi.


Had I never named her as Moroccan you would have seen her as another mixed black girl.

Which is actually the case,
-..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures" (By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.)

 -

The second on the cover, the cover is from a black womens organization. No she doesn't look Spanish, she looks very typical Moroccan. Northwest African and has natural tick curly hear.

These women of African descent are making a statement on that cover. And your opinion doesn't matter nor your dehumanizing tactics. Crazy fascist.


Yet, when someone posts pictures of Negritos, you are the first one in the nazi line to rant and rave yelling: they are not African... black... blah blah...they have nothing to do with Africa...etc...lol

Can't you see your double standards and racist affinities. This is due to the imaginary black father you have.

Northwest Africans are the hybrid negroes you keep ranting about. Alias, go figure!!!
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Jari:
I guess after Al-takruri bitch slapped your arse on the Etymology of Moor you are becoming dilerious

All he did was disagree. He has his source I have mine. Moor came from athe Phoenicians.
And just who of what discipline in what lexicon is
your source? You still fail to produce even a single
authoritative supporting linguistic source.

My challenge and explanation still stand:

No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the

1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number

in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.


m-h-r ≠ m-g-r

m-g-r ≠ west

m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it.

Sources:
Richard S. Tomback
A comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages
Missouri, Montana: Scholars Press, 1978

Francis Brown; S R Driver; Charles A Briggs
A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament
Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1906

Samuel Prideaux Tregelles
Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon
Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1949 [1857]


See also my two sources for mauros posted earlier.
Overlook these five at peril of your own ignorance.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass who lies even to herself:

[Numidian mosaics]

^^^^ you do realize this crude mosiac art proves absolutely nothing . The above mosiacs look like possibly Mediterranaean or Middle Eastern non-African types but might actually be Tuareg looking types.

B|tch, who do you think you're fooling?! LOL

There is nothing "crude" about the mosaics, let alone their color! You do realize Mediterranean is a Sea that borders Africa and thus blacks live along there as well. You do realize that 'Middle East' is a geopolitical area that encompasses southwest Asia which is also right next door to Africa and that region too is inhabited by black people. You do realize that the Tuareg who live in Saharan Africa are predominantly black as well!!

quote:
Here the mosaic art is ambigous and I don't see why people keep posting this as if it clears something up. The above women mosiac could easily be people who look like this:
 -

 -

 -
 -
 -

LOL There is nothing "ambiguous" about it! Nice spam of people who share the same features as those in the mural, but how come non of them share their chocolate complexions?!

 -  -
 -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malcontent7:

I totally disagree about the first woman and the lady on the magazine cover on the right. You are totally off your rocker. Do you realize that there are plenty of Arab Americans in the US, Moroccans, Egyptians who look like the first woman and who are not considered Black? What about all the Hispanics? Are they considered Black?? The woman on the magazine cover looks Spanish and not Black at all! Dude your mind seems to be stuck in the 1950's with the one drop rule. That and excessive drug use, I'm sure.

See when you have dumb people like Ms Cathy Hughes here who considers hereself Black.

 -

She has to tell people she is Black or they would never know.

LOL The only one mentally off is YOU. You are obviously inconsistent in your arguments. Notice, how you ignore Halle Berry. You're right there are many women or people in general in Southwest Asia and especially North Africa who share those features. Has it not occurred to you that this is because they have black ancestry either recent or slightly older?? I don't subscribe to nonsense like the one-drop rule or that one can only be black or white even though that person is both. But you cannot deny the very nature that these people have black African ancestry! Yes even many Latin peoples especially in Caribbean countries like Puerto-Rico, Dominica, and Cuba and in South American countries like Brazil have those same features for the same reasons-- those areas are historically known to have large populations of African descent who have mixed with non-blacks to much extent.

Now we come back to the issue that Berber IS African and thus original Berbers were and still are black! Duh!
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
The ploy is obvious. Certain folks want to make Berber an "exclusive" marker of North African identity focusing on those populations with the most Eurasian ancestry. It is not coincidental that much of this originates in the halls of European academia and propaganda versus Africa itself.

But I like to laugh when such clowns try to claim that these Eurasian white folks, how ever they want to call them, got there before blacks.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The ploy is obvious. Certain folks want to make Berber an "exclusive" marker of North African identity focusing on those populations with the most Eurasian ancestry. It is not coincidental that much of this originates in the halls of European academia and propaganda versus Africa itself.

But I like to laugh when such clowns try to claim that these Eurasian white folks, how ever they want to call them, got there before blacks.

There is no way to tell who got where first.
If we assume that there were some settlements of people who were exclusively African in ancestry it is also reasonable to assume that in other of these regions, many with low quality dry mountainous land, that some of the non Afrcian migrants may have settled into areas where no village had ever been, or to places within large stretches of never inhabited before.
Like in North America, the Europeans invaded and colonized a lot of native Indian territory. Yet at the same time there were many areas never previously inhabited land.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
No Altaruri disproved the Phonecian lie. Your duck, dodging and bobbing to avioid the Etymology for Moor wont change it Etymology.

This is not a simple He has his and I have mine stalemate, Al-Takruri has given credible evidence you have not.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the

1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number

in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.

m-h-r ≠ m-g-r

m-g-r ≠ west

m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


All he did was disagree. He has his source I have mine. Moor came from athe Phoenicians.

And those mosaics don't look like Black to me. Sorry


You and your buddies are jokes. [Big Grin]

"The dictionaries aren't sure what Europe means, but in ancient Greek mythology, Europa was a Phoenician princess who was carried off to the West. In Hebrew, the word, West, is (Ma)Urobh, as in Psalm 103:12. The root of this Hebrew word is EREV, meaning EVENING, and west is the direction of the setting sun of the evening-time. This word appears in Genesis 1:5. In fact, ancient Assyrian monuments speak of the land of EREB, meaning "Setting Sun Land." Likewise, ASU (ASHU) was Assyrian lingo for "land of the rising sun," and of course, the sun rises in the EAST. So we see where we got the modern terms."

Maghrib, ( Arabic: “West”) , also spelled Maghreb, region of North Africa bordering the Mediterranean Sea.

And you can find references to Phoenician "Mahur" all over the internet.
http://www.google.com/search?q=phoenician+west+mahur+hebrew&hl=en&prmd=ivnsb&ei=XI2UTuDMDeLo0QHm1tDcBw&start=10&sa=N
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Troll Patrol

The first woman is considered a Aswadi.
Had I never named her as Moroccan you would have seen her as another mixed black girl.

Not really. I certainly wouldn't have thought she was a mixed aa. I have seen a lot of North Africans when I lived in Europe. And her facial taits remind me of them.

Also that other post you posted about "White" meaning differnt things to African people other than the light skin as Dana likes to argue, doesn't carry too much weight when we actually find light skin Berber types where others have repoterd. Also the fact that Ibn Batutta's land of the Blacks roughly corresponds to where Black populations currently reside (the southern Saharan being the frontier), in Africa is quite damning. Sorry.
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
You are obviously inconsistent in your arguments. Notice, how you ignore Halle Berry. You're right there are many women or people in general in Southwest Asia and especially North Africa who share those features. Has it not occurred to you that this is because they have black ancestry either recent or slightly older?? I don't subscribe to nonsense like the one-drop rule or that one can only be black or white even though that person is both. But you cannot deny the very nature that these people have black African ancestry! Yes even many Latin peoples especially in Caribbean countries like Puerto-Rico, Dominica, and Cuba and in South American countries like Brazil have those same features for the same reasons-- those areas are historically known to have large populations of African descent who have mixed with non-blacks to much extent.

Now we come back to the issue that Berber IS African and thus original Berbers were and still are black! Duh!

Halle Barry looks more Black than the first woman.

And to answer your question. Of course there is some Black mixture in North Africa and the Middle East. But let me ask you this. Why do you believe that Middle Easterners couldn't have those traits on their own? If everyone migrated out of Africa, changes in phenotype likely happened gradually in stages. Thus folks who setteld in the Middle East retained a certian amount of "Africaness" and those that moved furhter North became fairer etc. Thus there is no need to assume that all people who look North African or Middle Eastern are a recent mix of two extremes Black and White. Capeesh?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


And to answer your question. Of course there is some Black mixture in North Africa and the Middle East. But let me ask you this. Why do you believe that Middle Easterners couldn't have those traits on their own? If everyone migrated out of Africa, changes in phenotype likely happened gradually in stages. Thus folks who setteld in the Middle East retained a certian amount of "Africaness" and those that moved furhter North became fairer etc. Thus there is no need to assume that all people who look North African or Middle Eastern are a recent mix of two extremes Black and White. Capeesh? [/QB]

This is a point SOY Keita also made but few people here grasp
.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Still waiting for citations and evidence for the white Eurasian ancestors of the Tuareg or the white Eurasian Aboriginal African population that moved South and created the Tuareg as offspring and taught them how to speak Berber and live a pastoral nomadic lifestyle in the Sahara.

Not to mention those authentic images of North West African Berbers who were part of the Almoravid and Almohade movement.
 
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
whites are aboriginal to north africa. lol

 -

 -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ That is the very crux of the matter that I've been trying to get all you guys to realize.-- That the Malcontent keeps dodging and ducking my query about who inhabited North Africa first. Whites or Blacks?? The answer is obvious to anyone with basic common sense. As for those who lack this...

quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass:

There is no way to tell who got where first.
If we assume that there were some settlements of people who were exclusively African in ancestry it is also reasonable to assume that in other of these regions, many with low quality dry mountainous land, that some of the non African migrants may have settled into areas where no village had ever been, or to places within large stretches of never inhabited before.
Like in North America, the Europeans invaded and colonized a lot of native Indian territory. Yet at the same time there were many areas never previously inhabited land.

Of course we have a way of knowing. It's called bio-anthropology and archaeology. Do you expect anyone to believe that whites who evolved in Ice Age Europe settled North Africa before the actual indigenous (black) Africans??

By the way, you want evidence of the first populations to inhabit Africa we discussed in various past threads such as these:

Whatever happened to the "type de Mechta" or the Mechta-Afalou?

The Mechta-Afalou/Mechtoids redux thread
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the

1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number

in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.

m-h-r ≠ m-g-r

m-g-r ≠ west

m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


All he did was disagree. He has his source I have mine. Moor came from athe Phoenicians.


"In Hebrew, the word, West, is (Ma)Urobh, as in Psalm 103:12. The root of this Hebrew word is EREV, meaning EVENING, and west is the direction of the setting sun of the evening-time. This word appears in Genesis 1:5. In fact, ancient Assyrian monuments speak of the land of EREB, meaning "Setting Sun Land." Likewise, ASU (ASHU) was Assyrian lingo for "land of the rising sun," and of course, the sun rises in the EAST. So we see where we got the modern terms."

Maghrib, ( Arabic: “West”) , also spelled Maghreb, region of North Africa bordering the Mediterranean Sea.

And you can find references to Phoenician "Mahur" all over the internet.
http://www.google.com/search?q=phoenician+west+mahur+hebrew&hl=en&prmd=ivnsb&ei=XI2UTuDMDeLo0QHm1tDcBw&start=10&sa=N [/QB][/QUOTE]
You fail once again my fiend.

Finding all over the internet does not meet the academics
1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number
linquistic proof for Semitic roots m-h-r and m-g-r
both meaning west.

I can't stop laughing at your shenanigans, anything
put put up an entry in a lexicon by a linguist that
shows either mauros derived from mahur or two roots
m-h-r (mem-heh-resh) / m-g-r- (mem-gimel-resh).

How does it help you to erringly regurgitate me?
"m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it."

The error being a fictional word (Ma)Urobh -- introducing
yet a third root, m-w-r-b (mem-waw-resh-beth) --
where in fact it is ma`rab (מַּעֲרָב) at Psalm 103:12.

You're fooling you if you think readers can't see
you introduced nothing other than what I posted but
erring with this phony word (Ma)Urobh nonexistant
in Hebrew/Caananitic.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the

1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number

in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.

m-h-r ≠ m-g-r

m-g-r ≠ west

m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


All he did was disagree. He has his source I have mine. Moor came from athe Phoenicians.


"In Hebrew, the word, West, is (Ma)Urobh, as in Psalm 103:12. The root of this Hebrew word is EREV, meaning EVENING, and west is the direction of the setting sun of the evening-time. This word appears in Genesis 1:5. In fact, ancient Assyrian monuments speak of the land of EREB, meaning "Setting Sun Land." Likewise, ASU (ASHU) was Assyrian lingo for "land of the rising sun," and of course, the sun rises in the EAST. So we see where we got the modern terms."

Maghrib, ( Arabic: “West”) , also spelled Maghreb, region of North Africa bordering the Mediterranean Sea.

And you can find references to Phoenician "Mahur" all over the internet.
http://www.google.com/search?q=phoenician+west+mahur+hebrew&hl=en&prmd=ivnsb&ei=XI2UTuDMDeLo0QHm1tDcBw&start=10&sa=N [/QB][/QUOTE]
You fail once again my fiend.

Finding all over the internet does not meet the academics
1 - author,
2 - lexicon, and
3 - page number
linquistic proof for Semitic roots m-h-r and m-g-r
both meaning west.

I can't stop laughing at your shenanigans, anything
put put up an entry in a lexicon by a linguist that
shows either mauros derived from mahur or two roots
m-h-r (mem-heh-resh) / m-g-r- (mem-gimel-resh).

How does it help you to erringly regurgitate me?
"m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it."

The error being a fictional word (Ma)Urobh -- introducing
yet a third root, m-w-r-b (mem-waw-resh-beth) --
where in fact it is ma`rab (מַּעֲרָב) at Psalm 103:12.

You're fooling you if you think readers can't see
you introduced nothing other than what I posted but
erring with this phony word (Ma)Urobh nonexistant
in Hebrew/Caananitic.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL [Big Grin]

The Malcontent obviously didn't realize you have substantial knowledge in Semitic language via Hebrew. Now, let's see what faulty sources or distortions he will try to pull out of his rear end.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
...
 
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL [Big Grin]

The Malcontent obviously didn't realize you have substantial knowledge in Semitic language via Hebrew. Now, let's see what faulty sources or distortions he will try to pull out of his rear end.

I think I already responded somewhere and said that ma`rab could still be at the root of mauros. I don't know what happened to my post.

And why was the term Mauri applied only to Berber tribe of the extreme WEST?? [Eek!]
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL [Big Grin]

The Malcontent obviously didn't realize you have substantial knowledge in Semitic language via Hebrew. Now, let's see what faulty sources or distortions he will try to pull out of his rear end.

I think I already responded somewhere and said that ma`rab could still be at the root of mauros. I don't know what happened to my post.

And why was the term Mauri applied only to Berber tribe of the extreme WEST?? [Eek!]

No, also to those of West Africa...
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana

The other thing mentioned however was that these groups had two distinct cultures. The darker ones living in the Numidian type magalia for one and dressing like the Arabs. The other ones not.

These distinct cultures in kabylia and the finding by Troll Patrol quoted below is also suggestive of why there are two distinct groups in Kabylia today. It suggests that Vandals have in fact absorbed Berbers as much as vice versa.

"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."


We need to clarify we we say darker ones are we talking about swarty Middle Eastern looking types

like this

 -

Or Blacks?

While you can certainly argue about the Kabyle asorbiong Vandals. What about the Chaoui?

 -

Shluh Berbers?

 -


Riffian?

 -

Mozabites?

 -

Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority. What do you suppose the orignal U6 carriers looked like coming out of the Near East?

Interestingly I just found something about the Shawia claiming to be related to the Siwa Berbers. HMmmmmmm! I wonder where that is going to lead us. Why admit something there is no evidence of.

I never ever said anything about there not being light skinned people in ancient North Africa. That doesn't mean those people had anything to do with the original Berber- speaking people called Berbers by the Greeks and by themselves.

The term Berber is a recent adoption by peoples speaking an African Asiatic dialect who represent a composite population, but who more often than not have other or genetic contributions from outside of Africa - RECENTLY! PERIOD!


Berber tribes are only referred to as black up until not long ago. If you want to make descendants of Vandals, Alans, Romans, Turks, Greeks, and Eurasiatic slaves of varied geographical origin into some kind of imaginary "Berber people" indigenous to ancient North Africa I will not agree with it. [Frown] There is absolutely no historical, genetic and especially anthropological evidence for that being the case.

Berber, like Amazigh, or Arab is a language and/ or nationality today and that is it.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL That depends on how "black". We know that African Americans of a certain complexion especially light ones get mistaken for native Egyptians in Egypt. It's only those that are really dark or very black that are easily spotted as foreigners and subject to discrimination. The same is true in other North African countries like Morocco.

Of course the reason is quite obvious-- because most North Africans especially along the coast are mixed.

Racial political definitions of black are the opposite in Africa, where any light hue makes one non-black.

This typical Moroccan woman for example would be labeled 'black' in America and in much of Europe but not in her country of origin.

 -

Similarly Halle Berry could blend right in with the 'non-black' locals in Morocco.

 -

 -

^ Both women would be considered 'black' in the West including the Moroccan on the right, but the Moroccan would not be considered 'black' in her home country. On the contrary, the darker more pristine black woman on the left would be discriminated against as a foreign 'black' person in Morocco.

Modern Moroccans mixed ancestry is common knowledge to everyone but willful ignoramuses like yourself, but the question is was such the case a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago?? Have you forgotten the very topic of this thread?-- Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century

I totally disagree about the first woman and the lady on the magazine cover on the right. You are totally off your rocker. Do you realize that there are plenty of Arab Americans in the US, Moroccans, Egyptians who look like the first woman and who are not considered Black? What about all the Hispanics? Are they considered Black?? The woman on the magazine cover looks Spanish and not Black at all! Dude your mind seems to be stuck in the 1950's with the one drop rule. That and excessive drug use, I'm sure.

See when you have dumb people like Ms Cathy Hughes here who considers hereself Black.

 -

She has to tell people she is Black or they would never know.

Do you think without that blond dyed hair she's going to look any different than millions of other black American women.

Think again.

 -
Here is another who headed CNBC television in America She happens to be similar to my color and a distant relative thru marriage. What do you think would happen if she or I dyed our hair blond?!

That would still make us some black American women with dyed blond hair. Now wouldn't it?

That is too bad if other people around the world are offended by the word black! The only reason they are offended is because they feel themselves to be better than the purer or blacker Africans who haven't mixed with fairer people.

In any case most early Berbers were not this medium brown color but much closer to black. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QB] The fact is that people like the Moroccan female are considered black as well.

The term Aswadi is used to describe them.

Also a lot of the time Arubans vice versa Moroccans are getting mixed up.


For Egypt, some one of dark complexion could be mistaken for native Egyptian as well, depending on facial features.



"Black" is a term with no hard definition. It is defined by different people differently. probably the most appropriate people to define them would be them.
A lot of the Western world see people as "Black" "white" and other, perhaps "Asian"

In earlier time periods there weren't these primary racial classifications. people identied themselves by nationality rather than color of skin.

For example many Arabs would not call themselves black or white.
They would not call themselves mulatto either. It's an outdated term that also has a derogatory tone for some people. Halle Berry doesn't call herself that, or Barack Obama or Tiger Woods.
People try to pressure them to choose for politicla reasons

I would imagine these people would prefer to have lived in an earlier time period when people weren't identified so strongly by skin color.

But one thing is certain, and that is that the ancient Egyptians, Mauri i.e. the Berbers, the Indi i.e. Abyssinians, Blemmyes or Beja and the south Arabians; the north Arabians, Kedarenes, Kushi and Nabit/Nabataeans, and Indus Valley people, were all classified among "the blacks" at one time or another by European and Eurasiatic (Romans, Greeks, white Syrians, Armenians, Khazars, Slavs, Goths Francs) people of the ancient world, and mainly described as woolly or "crisp-haired". We can also throw in the Canaanite, the Nobatae, the Zanj and the Sudani (Zaghawa, Soninke/Aswanek) as being among the blacks.


The least modified (or least altered thru intermixture) of these people are all dark literal brown or near black in color and tend to have kinky hair, when it hasn't been treated with chemicals. [Wink]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The ploy is obvious. Certain folks want to make Berber an "exclusive" marker of North African identity focusing on those populations with the most Eurasian ancestry. It is not coincidental that much of this originates in the halls of European academia and propaganda versus Africa itself.

But I like to laugh when such clowns try to claim that these Eurasian white folks, how ever they want to call them, got there before blacks.

But according to Kola the NUT these white Eurasiatics brought the U6 35,000 years ago.lol!
Wonder how these so called paleolithic whites became black Mesolithic peoples in Europe. [Roll Eyes]


 -
Spain
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Still waiting for citations and evidence for the white Eurasian ancestors of the Tuareg or the white Eurasian Aboriginal African population that moved South and created the Tuareg as offspring and taught them how to speak Berber and live a pastoral nomadic lifestyle in the Sahara.

Not to mention those authentic images of North West African Berbers who were part of the Almoravid and Almohade movement.

Funny thing is the descriptions of the Masmuda, Kitama and Sanhaja as blacks by Abu Shama of the 13th c., Butlan (11th c.) and Nasir Khusrau (11th) belongs to the period during and after the Almohade and Almoravide dynasties.


They just can't win. [Wink] And what's more, they just don't get it, the cased is closed.lol!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
 -
Purely Italian woman Melissa Gorga (born Marco) from reality TV series who claimed she was sometimes mistaken for black growing up.


 -
Same Italian women as a youngster.
Now u know why the dna of Sicilians and southern Italian and Greek groups can show genetic resemblances to Africans.


People in the US are "mistaken" for black for a reason. if they are not from Africa or are not considered black it doesn't mean they don't have black African blood somewhere down the line. She probably looks a lot like some of the ancient Roman and Greco-Roman North Africans in the ancient frescoes.


Funny thing though that many North Africans of today don't look as African as this young lady.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

...I never ever said anything about there not being light skinned people in ancient North Africa. That doesn't mean those people had anything to do with the original Berber- speaking people called Berbers by the Greeks and by themselves.

The term Berber is a recent adoption by peoples speaking an African Asiatic dialect who represent a composite population, but who more often than not have other or genetic contributions from outside of Africa - RECENTLY! PERIOD!

Berber tribes are only referred to as black up until not long ago. If you want to make descendants of Vandals, Alans, Romans, Turks, Greeks, and Eurasiatic slaves of varied geographical origin into some kind of imaginary "Berber people" indigenous to ancient North Africa I will not agree with it. [Frown] There is absolutely no historical, genetic and especially anthropological evidence for that being the case.

Berber, like Amazigh, or Arab is a language and/ or nationality today and that is it.

This is something that Malcontent has a hard time digesting. He identifies only the lightest types as 'true' Berbers but dismisses the darker or even black types as recent slave descendants. It just doesn't add up with linguistics, archaeology, or genetics. Blacks are aboriginal to the area, NOT 'Middle Easterners', and NOT Europeans!
quote:
Do you think without that blond dyed hair she's going to look any different than millions of other black American women.

Think again.

 -

Here is another who headed CNBC television in America She happens to be similar to my color and a distant relative thru marriage. What do you think would happen if she or I dyed our hair blond?!

That would still make us some black American women with dyed blond hair. Now wouldn't it?

That is too bad if other people around the world are offended by the word black! The only reason they are offended is because they feel themselves to be better than the purer or blacker Africans who haven't mixed with fairer people.

In any case most early Berbers were not this medium brown color but much closer to black. [Roll Eyes]

Ironically the newswoman in the picture exactly fits the bill of what the Malcontent calls "swarthy Middle Eastern" type! LOL [Big Grin]
quote:
But one thing is certain, and that is that the ancient Egyptians, Mauri i.e. the Berbers, the Indi i.e. Abyssinians, Blemmyes or Beja and the south Arabians; the north Arabians, Kedarenes, Kushi and Nabit/Nabataeans, and Indus Valley people, were all classified among "the blacks" at one time or another by European and Eurasiatic (Romans, Greeks, white Syrians, Armenians, Khazars, Slavs, Goths Francs) people of the ancient world, and mainly described as woolly or "crisp-haired". We can also throw in the Canaanite, the Nobatae, the Zanj and the Sudani (Zaghawa, Soninke/Aswanek) as being among the blacks.

The least modified (or least altered thru intermixture) of these people are all dark literal brown or near black in color and tend to have kinky hair, when it hasn't been treated with chemicals. [Wink]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.
quote:
But according to Kola the NUT these white Eurasiatics brought the U6 35,000 years ago.lol!
Wonder how these so called paleolithic whites became black Mesolithic peoples in Europe. [Roll Eyes]

 -
Spain

Ironically, Eurasiatics were recent settlers to Europe around that time and according to Jablonski and other experts their bodies still had tropically adapted traits and not to mention their skulls still resembled black Africans and Australian according to Chris Stringer and other experts. So middle paleolithic Europeans being 'white' is a fantasy indeed.
quote:
Funny thing is the descriptions of the Masmuda, Kitama and Sanhaja as blacks by Abu Shama of the 13th c., Butlan (11th c.) and Nasir Khusrau (11th) belongs to the period during and after the Almohade and Almoravide dynasties.

They just can't win. [Wink] And what's more, they just don't get it, the case is closed.lol!

The Euronuts can never win yet they keep trying all the time. Einstein said it best that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

 -
Purely Italian woman Melissa Gorga (born Marco) from reality TV series who claimed she was sometimes mistaken for black growing up.

 -

Same Italian women as a youngster.
Now u know why the dna of Sicilians and southern Italian and Greek groups can show genetic resemblances to Africans.

People in the US are "mistaken" for black for a reason. if they are not from Africa or are not considered black it doesn't mean they don't have black African blood somewhere down the line. She probably looks a lot like some of the ancient Roman and Greco-Roman North Africans in the ancient frescoes.

Funny thing though that many North Africans of today don't look as African as this young lady.

Have you seen the 1993 movie 'True Romance' starring Christopher Walken and Dennis Hopper? If so, do you remember this famous and 'controversial' scene between the two characters featuring a discussion about Sicilian ancestry?

http://www.pulpfiction.com/news-true-romance-dennis-hopper-and-christopher-walken.html

Of course WE know that African ancestry among Sicilians began long before Moorish conquest since the neolithic!

E1b1b
 -

^ Note how dark Sicily and the southern part of mainland Italy is.

Benin HBS (sickle cell)
 -
 
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews

Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1001373

What's the point in emphasizing on 1-3% ancestry? Sounds kind of pathetic to me.

99-97% of Southern European DNA is non-African.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Perahu:
The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews

Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1001373

What's the point in emphasizing on 1-3% ancestry? Sounds kind of pathetic to me.

99-97% of Southern European DNA is non-African.

Umm... if you want to believe all Italians like this woman below has 1% or even 5% ancestry go right ahead.LMBO! All I can say is you can run, but you can not hide. [Big Grin]

Josephina Victoria "Joy" Behar (born Occhiuto)
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Holy, moly! I didn't know there three sistah's on the View. Didn't you mean 10-30%?
Sorry, but not even a blowdryer's going to make up for this one.

 -
Joy Behar all grown up and after the blowdryer? Now we know where she gets her spunk.


Look not all southern Europeans are alike.
 
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
^Um, we can run but we cannot hide. But why should we? Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? Did they decide to take a break? [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.

I tend to go with the idea that blacks in India and Africa are straight have straight hair when they are mixed with Eurasians or Asian populations. It is obvious that aboriginal Australians have mixed with Dravidians and the once extremely black Dravidians have absorbed with Iranic or other Asian peoples. That is why some have kinky hair and others have wavy hair. That is why some Amhara or Somali or Tuareg have kinky hair while others have wavy or curly hair. This may have come as early as the neolithic in some regions but I doubt that it was originally a tropical trait of black Africans.

If you look at how black some of the Somali and Dravidians which is black as ink (and I am not exagerrating)you can see why they could have remained dark brownish or near black and still have wavy or curly hair. The same goes for the Beja.

In my view most Indians are a fixed type that is neither fully black nor European (Iranic) or Asian due to their very ancient intermixture that stems back to the neolithic.
 
Posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
 
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
In the genes? I've looked in all 4 pockets of my genes and I still haven't found a thing. Where could it be? Is the answer on the floor? Maybe I've dropped it on the floor. Do you think?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
^Um, we can run but we cannot hide. But why should we? Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? Did they decide to take a break? [Roll Eyes]

My people... umm, tell me who my people are first. is that simple enough? [Smile]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
In the genes? I've looked in all 4 pockets of my genes and I still haven't found a thing. Where could it be? Is the answer on the floor? Maybe I've dropped it on the floor. Do you think?
Testing testing, 1,2,3. Lyin _ss is that you. Please come back if it aint. [Confused]
 
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
^Um, we can run but we cannot hide. But why should we? Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? Did they decide to take a break? [Roll Eyes]

My people... umm, tell me who my people are first. is that simple enough? [Smile]
Since you are so anxious to isolate every accomplishment known to humankind to the people south of the Saharan desert, (which I assume are your people)then tell us what happened? Where are their accomplishments now? Why did they quit?
 
Posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
south of the Saharan desert, (which I assume are your people)

Do you know how many countries are south of the Sahara?


quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
In the genes? I've looked in all 4 pockets of my genes and I still haven't found a thing. Where could it be? Is the answer on the floor? Maybe I've dropped it on the floor. Do you think?
Oh ok you mean to tell me you don't know the difference between jeans and genes?

Clarity, in the genetics a.k.a genes simpleton.

But of course you knew this, your blubbery self just likes to ignore genetics and anthropology, we all know to well.

Possibly all that blubber clogging your brain, or that Neanderthal admixture you oh so love to play up!

Topic: Brains of Neanderthals and Modern Humans Developed Differently

^^Is it the Neanderthal brain function clouding your judgement? LMFAO
 
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
south of the Saharan desert, (which I assume are your people)

Do you know how many countries are south of the Sahara?
Um,what does this have to do with what's being discussed? Just tell us what the accomplishments of those people are. Besides that of the white south Africans.
 
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):


quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
In the genes? I've looked in all 4 pockets of my genes and I still haven't found a thing. Where could it be? Is the answer on the floor? Maybe I've dropped it on the floor. Do you think?
Oh ok you mean to tell me you don't know the difference between jeans and genes?
[/QB]

You're really not that smart are you? Or are you just trying to sidestep my questioning?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
^Um, we can run but we cannot hide. But why should we? Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? Did they decide to take a break? [Roll Eyes]

My people... umm, tell me who my people are first. is that simple enough? [Smile]
Since you are so anxious to isolate every accomplishment known to humankind to the people south of the Saharan desert, (which I assume are your people)then tell us what happened? Where are their accomplishments now? Why did they quit?
First of all I'm American, buddy. But I will answer your question. I think their greatest accomplishment for now is just surviving the exploitative, greedy, predatory, arrogant, competitive, petty, no-nothing, unevolved, simple, animalistic, wacky nature of European cultural impress into Africa.

Hows about that for starters?


Some blame it on the Neanderthal but I think that gives the latter a bad name. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
south of the Saharan desert, (which I assume are your people)

Do you know how many countries are south of the Sahara?
Um,what does this have to do with what's being discussed?
Well simpleton you said south of the Sahara as if it were an unknown place or one country, sounds like you know next to to nothing about south of the Sahara, am I right?

If not, what can you tell me about south of the Sahara preferentially with sources?


quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Just tell us what the accomplishments of those people are.

It's not that simple, simpleton, the history runs very deep, but for someone with a limited attention span and blubber clogging your brain I wouldn't expect someone such as yourself to know...

Begin here, I encourage you to reply in the link provided below.

Topic: The civilizations of Africa: a history to 1800


quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Besides that of the white south Africans.

Oh ok, so you only know about modern histotry in reference to whites in south Africa?
 
Posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
south of the Saharan desert, (which I assume are your people)

Do you know how many countries are south of the Sahara?


quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
In the genes? I've looked in all 4 pockets of my genes and I still haven't found a thing. Where could it be? Is the answer on the floor? Maybe I've dropped it on the floor. Do you think?
Oh I get it, you mean to tell me you don't know the difference between jeans and genes?

Clarity, in the genetics a.k.a genes simpleton.

But of course you knew this, your blubbery self just likes to ignore genetics and anthropology, we all know to well.

Possibly all that blubber clogging your brain, or that Neanderthal admixture you oh so love to play up!

Topic: Brains of Neanderthals and Modern Humans Developed Differently

^^Is it the Neanderthal brain function clouding your judgement? LMFAO
 
Posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):


quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Where is the present contribution by your people if they are so great? [Roll Eyes]

In the genes fool in the genes, look to the haplogroups, you've been lost simpleton.
In the genes? I've looked in all 4 pockets of my genes and I still haven't found a thing. Where could it be? Is the answer on the floor? Maybe I've dropped it on the floor. Do you think?
Oh ok you mean to tell me you don't know the difference between jeans and genes?

You're really not that smart are you? Or are you just trying to sidestep my questioning? [/QB]
Your questioning was answered, it's in the genes simpleton, in the genes. That's where you can find the remnants...


 -

"Europeans appear as a genetic mixture, 2/3 Asian, 1/3 African".--Cavalli-Sforza


Questioning for simpleton;

If Oceanians and Europeans are both part of the same non-African OOA population structure, then Europeans should be as distant genetically from Africans, as Oceanians are, right?

If clustering closer to Africa is not due to post OOA migrations into Europe directly Africa, then what is it?

What does this then make your beloved cuckasians?

 -
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.

I tend to go with the idea that blacks in India and Africa are straight have straight hair when they are mixed with Eurasians or Asian populations. It is obvious that aboriginal Australians have mixed with Dravidians and the once extremely black Dravidians have absorbed with Iranic or other Asian peoples. That is why some have kinky hair and others have wavy hair. That is why some Amhara or Somali or Tuareg have kinky hair while others have wavy or curly hair. This may have come as early as the neolithic in some regions but I doubt that it was originally a tropical trait of black Africans.

If you look at how black some of the Somali and Dravidians which is black as ink (and I am not exagerrating)you can see why they could have remained dark brownish or near black and still have wavy or curly hair. The same goes for the Beja.

In my view most Indians are a fixed type that is neither fully black nor European (Iranic) or Asian due to their very ancient intermixture that stems back to the neolithic.

Aboriginal Indians and Australians arrived in that part of the world before there was a white person on the planet. Simply put they represent branches of the original black African root and the variability that comes with it. The pacific and South Asia are the areas of greatest phenotypic diversity in Asia and these are the areas where black skin has remained the longest. This indicates both that tropically adapted people have been in Asia the longest and that the diversity in Asia grew out of such populations. Hence you have blonde haired people in the Pacific who have 0 mixture from anywhere else. That has absolutely nothing to do with Eurasian whites. The first straight haired person on earth was an aboriginal black person.

quote:

Understanding the genetic history of Laos

The rapid initial colonization of Southeast Asia at some time after 60 kYBP along the "Southern Coastal Route" was followed by an expansion in situ (while other groups moved on), a dispersal into the continent and onto the islands, and the subsequent differentiation of ethnic groups with common origin but diverging lineages (most of which arose during the last stadial of the Würm glacial, 30-10 kYBP, probably in different refugia) [3,7,26,37,38]. We confirmed this in our analyses: the novel basal M haplogroups found in high diversity in the Laos sample and surrounding populations support the fast migration and in situ differentiation model (see Figure 3). Despite of little evolutionary time, the linguistically separated groups also clearly differed genetically (see Figure 4).

The original genetic structure of MSEA with distinct areas inhabited by the main ethnic groups - the Daic in the coastal areas of the Southeast, the Austro-Asiatic in Western and central MSEA, the Sino-Tibetan (Tibeto-Burmans and Han) in the North and the Hmong-Mien in today's central China - has been blurred by massive migrations [3,7]. In the past 2600 years, the Tibeto-Burmans moved from the Northwest and the Himalayan area to the South, absorbing indigenous lineages [4]. In the past 2000 years, several waves of Han expansions to the West and South caused massive displacements of indigenous minorities [3,4,6,7]. The Daic were forced southward by the expanding Han in a fanning spread and are now mainly found west of Hong Kong. In today's Laos, they formed small city states in the North from the late 11th century AD and later moved to the central and Southern plains, thereby repelling the Austro-Asiatic population to the highlands or assimilating them. Today, the Daic "lowlander" living in the plains and along the rivers constitute the major proportion (60-65%) of the Laos population. They are dominant in language, culture, media and politics [1-3,6,10,39]. The Hmong-Mien are the newest arrival: they were continuously forced to the Southwestern areas already settled by Austro-Asiatic and Southern Tibeto-Burmans. They immigrated to the hilly North of Laos only in the past several hundred years and today exhibit a pattern of refuge ("highlander"), rather than a positive expansion

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/49

Adivasi or Aboriginal populations of India look very similar to Australian aborigines:

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5044086304/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5043431395/in/photostream/

Australia
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938476407/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938511051/in/photostream/

Note the red hair among these children, which is often found in aboriginal populations across South Asia and the pacific. Again, nothing to do with ancient Eurasian white admixture.

People need to understand that ancient aboriginal populations were extremely diverse and bursting with variation in physical traits (but generally still dark). Later populations are much less diverse than those ancient aboriginal groups. Most traits in white Eurasian populations first originated among aboriginal blacks.

Aborignal populations of North Africa would also fit into this same pattern. Some call them "intermediate" but in reality many of them would have looked similar to aboriginal South Asians with straighter hair and other features often found in Europe. But since Northern Africa has had a very harsh environment for the last few thousand years, the settled populations there were very small and easily overrun or absorbed by later migrants. It is for this reason that many European researchers and many Eurocentrics on this thread focus on the extreme coasts of North Africa as those areas have been the most susceptible to foreign migrations. But that geographic area is not even 1/10th of North Africa, so using those populations as typical is a contradiction in terms, as they are "outliers" among the North African population expanse. But for the purposes of Europeans claiming that these Eurasian whites are ancient and aboriginal to North Africa, they become the target of most research. Evan as 1) these areas are the ones featuring most migration and influence over the last 3000 years. 2) These areas are a small percentage of North Africa proper and 3) Most populations in Northern Africa are semi nomadic because of the environment and therefore have been moving around.

Not only that, but these same European researchers often apply the label "Berber" to any ancient remains and artifacts they find in these same areas, even though the term is one of language not physical anthropology. Labeling a set of remains as "Berber" in order to assign the Berber languages to those populations historically most subject to Eurasian migration. Again, most of this is done to present a false positive data set implying that Berber language and identity is exclusively the product of Eurasian migrations to North Africa, when it is not. Speaking of "Berber" remains in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is pure nonsense as that is the upper range suggested for the existence of such languages.

Good example of what I mean in Tunisia:
 -

 -

But this could be found across North Africa. Libya is another example of tall dark African "mediterranean" type.

http://www.abcdelacpa.com/tunisie_types.html

And just to show that Europeans know more about this than you think, look at the way Sidney Poitier was done up with Straight Hair for the movie "The Long Ships".
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Continuing....

The aboriginal North Africans are simply an extension of the Sahel/Tropical African population of the Sahara and Sahel, most typified by the Woodabe or Fulani, the largest nomadic population in the World. This Sahel/Tropical population stretches from East Africa to West Africa all along the Sahara/Sahel zone and includes the Nile Valley in its domain.

 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1997_275-15_young_Wodaabe_women.jpg

 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fulani_Woman_from_Niger.jpg

Note the big hoop earrings, tattoos and head dress which is strongly reminiscent of North African Berber populations and Sudanese/Ethiopian populations. It is this ancient population that has always been roaming between the forest belt below the Sahara, the Sahara, Nile Valley and coastal North Africa that where the ancient population of Berber language speakers originates.

Sudanese Fulani
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rietje/3109967139/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rietje/3119644133/in/set-72157611289214998

Ethiopians:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/381580326/in/set-72057594063223528

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/138423331/in/set-72057594063223528

 -

The fact that almost every piece of North African genetic research does not point out this relationship among the huge populations of the geographic and temporal expanse of the Sahara, Sahel and Nile Valley, shows that they are simply trying to limit and create a false sense of the way North Africa was populated. Again, they are purposely trying to create false positives by focusing exclusively on those populations in extreme coastal North Africa whom exhibit the highest degree of Eurasian and non African admixture. Hence creating the false narrative of the original North Africans being Eurasians or hybrid mixed Africans, when that is absolutely not the case. Any narrative on the history of North Africa that begins with Eurasian migrants is absolutely pure bull sh*t as opposed to the migrations of the first humans from the East (ie, Nile Valley/Ethiopia) and subsequent waves from the southeast and south west depending on the environmental conditions in the Sahara. Likewise any research that posits that ancient indigenous Africans are outliers in North Africa, in relationship to theoretical mixed Eurasian "first setller" populations in North Africa is likewise bull sh*t as well. As common sense would indicate, it is the Eurasian component that is the outlier and the very fact that they focus exclusively on this small population on the extreme coasts makes it possible to create this fake historical narrative.

Old photo of a Beja Nomad:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mosaabgazal/3307936609/
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.

I tend to go with the idea that blacks in India and Africa are straight have straight hair when they are mixed with Eurasians or Asian populations. It is obvious that aboriginal Australians have mixed with Dravidians and the once extremely black Dravidians have absorbed with Iranic or other Asian peoples. That is why some have kinky hair and others have wavy hair. That is why some Amhara or Somali or Tuareg have kinky hair while others have wavy or curly hair. This may have come as early as the neolithic in some regions but I doubt that it was originally a tropical trait of black Africans.

If you look at how black some of the Somali and Dravidians which is black as ink (and I am not exagerrating)you can see why they could have remained dark brownish or near black and still have wavy or curly hair. The same goes for the Beja.

In my view most Indians are a fixed type that is neither fully black nor European (Iranic) or Asian due to their very ancient intermixture that stems back to the neolithic.

Aboriginal Indians and Australians arrived in that part of the world before there was a white person on the planet. Simply put they represent branches of the original black African root and the variability that comes with it. The pacific and South Asia are the areas of greatest phenotypic diversity in Asia and these are the areas where black skin has remained the longest. This indicates both that tropically adapted people have been in Asia the longest and that the diversity in Asia grew out of such populations. Hence you have blonde haired people in the Pacific who have 0 mixture from anywhere else. That has absolutely nothing to do with Eurasian whites. The first straight haired person on earth was an aboriginal black person.

quote:

Understanding the genetic history of Laos

The rapid initial colonization of Southeast Asia at some time after 60 kYBP along the "Southern Coastal Route" was followed by an expansion in situ (while other groups moved on), a dispersal into the continent and onto the islands, and the subsequent differentiation of ethnic groups with common origin but diverging lineages (most of which arose during the last stadial of the Würm glacial, 30-10 kYBP, probably in different refugia) [3,7,26,37,38]. We confirmed this in our analyses: the novel basal M haplogroups found in high diversity in the Laos sample and surrounding populations support the fast migration and in situ differentiation model (see Figure 3). Despite of little evolutionary time, the linguistically separated groups also clearly differed genetically (see Figure 4).

The original genetic structure of MSEA with distinct areas inhabited by the main ethnic groups - the Daic in the coastal areas of the Southeast, the Austro-Asiatic in Western and central MSEA, the Sino-Tibetan (Tibeto-Burmans and Han) in the North and the Hmong-Mien in today's central China - has been blurred by massive migrations [3,7]. In the past 2600 years, the Tibeto-Burmans moved from the Northwest and the Himalayan area to the South, absorbing indigenous lineages [4]. In the past 2000 years, several waves of Han expansions to the West and South caused massive displacements of indigenous minorities [3,4,6,7]. The Daic were forced southward by the expanding Han in a fanning spread and are now mainly found west of Hong Kong. In today's Laos, they formed small city states in the North from the late 11th century AD and later moved to the central and Southern plains, thereby repelling the Austro-Asiatic population to the highlands or assimilating them. Today, the Daic "lowlander" living in the plains and along the rivers constitute the major proportion (60-65%) of the Laos population. They are dominant in language, culture, media and politics [1-3,6,10,39]. The Hmong-Mien are the newest arrival: they were continuously forced to the Southwestern areas already settled by Austro-Asiatic and Southern Tibeto-Burmans. They immigrated to the hilly North of Laos only in the past several hundred years and today exhibit a pattern of refuge ("highlander"), rather than a positive expansion

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/49

Adivasi or Aboriginal populations of India look very similar to Australian aborigines:

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5044086304/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5043431395/in/photostream/

Australia
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938476407/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938511051/in/photostream/

Note the red hair among these children, which is often found in aboriginal populations across South Asia and the pacific. Again, nothing to do with ancient Eurasian white admixture.

People need to understand that ancient aboriginal populations were extremely diverse and bursting with variation in physical traits (but generally still dark). Later populations are much less diverse than those ancient aboriginal groups. Most traits in white Eurasian populations first originated among aboriginal blacks.

Aborignal populations of North Africa would also fit into this same pattern. Some call them "intermediate" but in reality many of them would have looked similar to aboriginal South Asians with straighter hair and other features often found in Europe. But since Northern Africa has had a very harsh environment for the last few thousand years, the settled populations there were very small and easily overrun or absorbed by later migrants. It is for this reason that many European researchers and many Eurocentrics on this thread focus on the extreme coasts of North Africa as those areas have been the most susceptible to foreign migrations. But that geographic area is not even 1/10th of North Africa, so using those populations as typical is a contradiction in terms, as they are "outliers" among the North African population expanse. But for the purposes of Europeans claiming that these Eurasian whites are ancient and aboriginal to North Africa, they become the target of most research. Evan as 1) these areas are the ones featuring most migration and influence over the last 3000 years. 2) These areas are a small percentage of North Africa proper and 3) Most populations in Northern Africa are semi nomadic because of the environment and therefore have been moving around.

Not only that, but these same European researchers often apply the label "Berber" to any ancient remains and artifacts they find in these same areas, even though the term is one of language not physical anthropology. Labeling a set of remains as "Berber" in order to assign the Berber languages to those populations historically most subject to Eurasian migration. Again, most of this is done to present a false positive data set implying that Berber language and identity is exclusively the product of Eurasian migrations to North Africa, when it is not. Speaking of "Berber" remains in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is pure nonsense as that is the upper range suggested for the existence of such languages.

Good example of what I mean in Tunisia:
 -

 -

But this could be found across North Africa. Libya is another example of tall dark African "mediterranean" type.

http://www.abcdelacpa.com/tunisie_types.html

And just to show that Europeans know more about this than you think, look at the way Sidney Poitier was done up with Straight Hair for the movie "The Long Ships".

There are probably very few aboriginal peoples left in India aside from those who mixed with the Aryan and other incomers. I consider the Jarawa peoples close to pure aboriginal although I do think some of the earliest people in India may have had straight hair. Many of the adivasis have still kinky hair though.
The North African boy above looks like a Gnawa whose been mixed with some non-African type. It just shows what's been happening in India over the past centuries or milleniums. Eve some Siddis have straight hair. There are plenty of near white Gnawas for that matter.

Any black family that comes from a lot of mulattos knows how easy it is to come out very dark with straight hair and even blond and red hair so their is no guarantee a lot of adavisis didn't get the color of their hair recently. India is a very old country whose people have been absorbing Iranic types for thousands of years.
 
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
bump
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.

I tend to go with the idea that blacks in India and Africa are straight have straight hair when they are mixed with Eurasians or Asian populations. It is obvious that aboriginal Australians have mixed with Dravidians and the once extremely black Dravidians have absorbed with Iranic or other Asian peoples. That is why some have kinky hair and others have wavy hair. That is why some Amhara or Somali or Tuareg have kinky hair while others have wavy or curly hair. This may have come as early as the neolithic in some regions but I doubt that it was originally a tropical trait of black Africans.

If you look at how black some of the Somali and Dravidians which is black as ink (and I am not exagerrating)you can see why they could have remained dark brownish or near black and still have wavy or curly hair. The same goes for the Beja.

In my view most Indians are a fixed type that is neither fully black nor European (Iranic) or Asian due to their very ancient intermixture that stems back to the neolithic.

Aboriginal Indians and Australians arrived in that part of the world before there was a white person on the planet. Simply put they represent branches of the original black African root and the variability that comes with it. The pacific and South Asia are the areas of greatest phenotypic diversity in Asia and these are the areas where black skin has remained the longest. This indicates both that tropically adapted people have been in Asia the longest and that the diversity in Asia grew out of such populations. Hence you have blonde haired people in the Pacific who have 0 mixture from anywhere else. That has absolutely nothing to do with Eurasian whites. The first straight haired person on earth was an aboriginal black person.

quote:

Understanding the genetic history of Laos

The rapid initial colonization of Southeast Asia at some time after 60 kYBP along the "Southern Coastal Route" was followed by an expansion in situ (while other groups moved on), a dispersal into the continent and onto the islands, and the subsequent differentiation of ethnic groups with common origin but diverging lineages (most of which arose during the last stadial of the Würm glacial, 30-10 kYBP, probably in different refugia) [3,7,26,37,38]. We confirmed this in our analyses: the novel basal M haplogroups found in high diversity in the Laos sample and surrounding populations support the fast migration and in situ differentiation model (see Figure 3). Despite of little evolutionary time, the linguistically separated groups also clearly differed genetically (see Figure 4).

The original genetic structure of MSEA with distinct areas inhabited by the main ethnic groups - the Daic in the coastal areas of the Southeast, the Austro-Asiatic in Western and central MSEA, the Sino-Tibetan (Tibeto-Burmans and Han) in the North and the Hmong-Mien in today's central China - has been blurred by massive migrations [3,7]. In the past 2600 years, the Tibeto-Burmans moved from the Northwest and the Himalayan area to the South, absorbing indigenous lineages [4]. In the past 2000 years, several waves of Han expansions to the West and South caused massive displacements of indigenous minorities [3,4,6,7]. The Daic were forced southward by the expanding Han in a fanning spread and are now mainly found west of Hong Kong. In today's Laos, they formed small city states in the North from the late 11th century AD and later moved to the central and Southern plains, thereby repelling the Austro-Asiatic population to the highlands or assimilating them. Today, the Daic "lowlander" living in the plains and along the rivers constitute the major proportion (60-65%) of the Laos population. They are dominant in language, culture, media and politics [1-3,6,10,39]. The Hmong-Mien are the newest arrival: they were continuously forced to the Southwestern areas already settled by Austro-Asiatic and Southern Tibeto-Burmans. They immigrated to the hilly North of Laos only in the past several hundred years and today exhibit a pattern of refuge ("highlander"), rather than a positive expansion

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/49

Adivasi or Aboriginal populations of India look very similar to Australian aborigines:

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5044086304/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5043431395/in/photostream/

Australia
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938476407/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938511051/in/photostream/

Note the red hair among these children, which is often found in aboriginal populations across South Asia and the pacific. Again, nothing to do with ancient Eurasian white admixture.

People need to understand that ancient aboriginal populations were extremely diverse and bursting with variation in physical traits (but generally still dark). Later populations are much less diverse than those ancient aboriginal groups. Most traits in white Eurasian populations first originated among aboriginal blacks.

Aborignal populations of North Africa would also fit into this same pattern. Some call them "intermediate" but in reality many of them would have looked similar to aboriginal South Asians with straighter hair and other features often found in Europe. But since Northern Africa has had a very harsh environment for the last few thousand years, the settled populations there were very small and easily overrun or absorbed by later migrants. It is for this reason that many European researchers and many Eurocentrics on this thread focus on the extreme coasts of North Africa as those areas have been the most susceptible to foreign migrations. But that geographic area is not even 1/10th of North Africa, so using those populations as typical is a contradiction in terms, as they are "outliers" among the North African population expanse. But for the purposes of Europeans claiming that these Eurasian whites are ancient and aboriginal to North Africa, they become the target of most research. Evan as 1) these areas are the ones featuring most migration and influence over the last 3000 years. 2) These areas are a small percentage of North Africa proper and 3) Most populations in Northern Africa are semi nomadic because of the environment and therefore have been moving around.

Not only that, but these same European researchers often apply the label "Berber" to any ancient remains and artifacts they find in these same areas, even though the term is one of language not physical anthropology. Labeling a set of remains as "Berber" in order to assign the Berber languages to those populations historically most subject to Eurasian migration. Again, most of this is done to present a false positive data set implying that Berber language and identity is exclusively the product of Eurasian migrations to North Africa, when it is not. Speaking of "Berber" remains in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is pure nonsense as that is the upper range suggested for the existence of such languages.

Good example of what I mean in Tunisia:
 -

 -

But this could be found across North Africa. Libya is another example of tall dark African "mediterranean" type.

http://www.abcdelacpa.com/tunisie_types.html

And just to show that Europeans know more about this than you think, look at the way Sidney Poitier was done up with Straight Hair for the movie "The Long Ships".

There are probably very few aboriginal peoples left in India aside from those who mixed with the Aryan and other incomers. I consider the Jarawa peoples close to pure aboriginal although I do think some of the earliest people in India may have had straight hair. Many of the adivasis have still kinky hair though.
The North African boy above looks like a Gnawa whose been mixed with some non-African type. It just shows what's been happening in India over the past centuries or milleniums. Eve some Siddis have straight hair. There are plenty of near white Gnawas for that matter.

Any black family that comes from a lot of mulattos knows how easy it is to come out very dark with straight hair and even blond and red hair so their is no guarantee a lot of adavisis didn't get the color of their hair recently. India is a very old country whose people have been absorbing Iranic types for thousands of years.

Straight hair is a biological adaptation and random mutation that first occurred among the early humans in Africa and then among the early OOA Africans in South Asia and elsewhere. This has absolutely nothing to do with admixture. The Adivasi are aboriginal Indians and closely related to the Aboriganal peoples of Australia who also have straight hair and blondism. They simply represent one subset to evolve straight hair among the OOA migrants in South Asia, whereas others maintained curly hair like the Papuans and Negritoes. However, other aboriginal populations in South Asia also had straight hair and were also black. For example the original Samoans and Maori also were black with straight hair. It is simply part of the natural diversity of OOA and Aboriginal populations in South Asia, the Pacific and Australia. And yes similar features also developed in Africa like the Nile Valley and parts of North Africa as well. Many Fulani are often noted as having staighter hair and they are not mixed with anyone.

And the theory of mixture causing Indian populations to have straight hair also makes no sense because there are very few Indians with curly hair, but a great many jet black Indians with straight hair. In order for this to be the result of mixture, then other traits would also have had to been passed down as well, most notably light skin, but that is not present amongst the majority of Indians and definitely not the Aboriginal Indians to support such a theory of Admixture.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
This is 100% correct. People keep talking about Straight hair in Tropical people is due to admixture with no supporting evidence. The fact of the matter is you can see where "Straight" hair began to evolve in East Africa, the place where AMH left and began to populate the globe.

 -

Their hair is very similar to the Aboriginees hair etc. People Assume that All Asians even the blacks have straight hair. Its not the case as black Asians can have Kinky, Curly and Straight hair just as African can and do. Its quite evident when you have the first forms of AMH with both Straight hair, Curly and Kinky hair, and these people were walking the Earth thousands of years before Leukoderms appeared on the scene. You have blacks with pure blond hair, straight hair, brown hair etc but the world refuses to get rid of the "true negro stereotype", insisting that straight hair in Africans is due to admixture with no supporting evidence except the words of 20th century racialist scientists.

Its sad.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
[Straight hair is a biological adaptation and random mutation that first occurred among the early humans in Africa and then among the early OOA Africans in South Asia and elsewhere. This has absolutely nothing to do with admixture. The Adivasi are aboriginal Indians and closely related to the Aboriganal peoples of Australia who also have straight hair and blondism. They simply represent one subset to evolve straight hair among the OOA migrants in South Asia, whereas others maintained curly hair like the Papuans and Negritoes. However, other aboriginal populations in South Asia also had straight hair and were also black. For example the original Samoans and Maori also were black with straight hair. It is simply part of the natural diversity of OOA and Aboriginal populations in South Asia, the Pacific and Australia. And yes similar features also developed in Africa like the Nile Valley and parts of North Africa as well. Many Fulani are often noted as having staighter hair and they are not mixed with anyone.

And the theory of mixture causing Indian populations to have straight hair also makes no sense because there are very few Indians with curly hair, but a great many jet black Indians with straight hair. In order for this to be the result of mixture, then other traits would also have had to been passed down as well, most notably light skin, but that is not present amongst the majority of Indians and definitely not the Aboriginal Indians to support such a theory of Admixture.


 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Straight hair is a biological adaptation

adaptation to what in particular?


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

And the theory of mixture causing Indian populations to have straight hair also makes no sense because there are very few Indians with curly hair, but a great many jet black Indians with straight hair. In order for this to be the result of mixture, then other traits would also have had to been passed down as well, most notably light skin, but that is not present amongst the majority of Indians and definitely not the Aboriginal Indians to support such a theory of Admixture. [/QB]

Why is straight hair very common in Inda but not so common in Africa? Humans sweat more than other primates and do so to cool themselves. Afro hair is springy and allows the seat to evaporate.
Afro hair is in an adpatation to humid environments. Some people who had afro hair left Africa and would later wind up in India. In prehistoric times these people left Africa through Egypt and settled in places like the Levant and Central Asia, including countries like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan. Of these migrants their skin lightened due to the higher latitude.
The colder temperatures caused their hair to straighten. Later they made their way migrating further east to India. India has a variety of climates including unique types of subtropical humid climates which are not always humid all year round but at other times of the year are extremely dry and nights are cooled by sea breezes in many locations. Most of these climates are not like Central African interior humid climates which have more constant conditions. Some Indian tribes from India do however do have curly hair.
Their skin darkened as they went into further South regions of India.
The Papua New Guineans and Andamans did retain their afro hair becasue they were part of people who did not take the migration route as far north, in factmay have have left the continent not through Egypt but instead left from Ethiopia into Yemen and taking much more continously Southern route near the Southern coast of Asia. We can't assume any of these people who left Africa made it to places like India much less Papua during their lifetimes. This is a many thousands of years process where they settle for hundreds or more years in locations in between African and these places before migrating to those places. In other words it's not a continuous migation of people within their lifetime. It is little by little, generation by generation of people making their way further and further away from Africa.

lioness productions.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
 -


Ancient Egyptian hair

Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a
'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a
"Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly
variable, debunking their simplistic claims.


The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls
of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of
peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over
millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This
diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic
"racial" claims based on hair.


Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and
definitions of African hair



Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial
hair claims:

Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair,
and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming
Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of
Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New
Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that
'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were
ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans,
Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been
thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they
continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to
assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to
define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily
on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined
as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme
"type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".

Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that
while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true
negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to
apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white."
Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on
the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for
example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample
as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or
approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled)
hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the
Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such
consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.

QUOTE:
"Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which
had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was
interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical
African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is
grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or
Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more
than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly"
hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.."
(S. O. Y.
Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian
Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)



Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories:

Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example
of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove
assumptions of race and gender"
involving 1800s European
researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation
reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into
Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of
hair for race category or percentage claims involving the
ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several
Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for
neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.


Hair studies touted by "heriditarian" race proponents
actually applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used
late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks,
Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500
years of ancient civilization.
A study of the hair of Egyptian
mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach
(1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period
samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14
samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the
14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the
previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling
are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to
identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were
deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse
and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European,
then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed
"Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:

Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly
Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight
Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy
Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter
Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair
Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape
unascertainable - south
Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly
- south
Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight
Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine
Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape
Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly,
Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight
Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy
Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD


Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are
undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group
closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.



------------ "Nordic hair measurements"

Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher
Pruner-Bey in the 1800s (yes they actually go back this far),
which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans.
Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But
is it as they claim?

(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character')
- Negroid index: 57.40
- Egyptian index: 69.94
- White Germans: 66.33
Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer'
to Egyptians

Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman &
Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)

Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data:
- Negroid index: 57.40
- Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)

White Germans: 66.33
___________________________________________________
___________________________
Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much
‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics

___________________________________________________
__________________________________________________


Using hair for race identification as older research does can be
shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as
shown above.


Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove
assumptions of race and gender..”
Other credible scientists note:

"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that
the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish
races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories.
Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair
morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present
have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as
1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from
samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological
similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these
may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of
the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later
out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically
indistinguishable".

--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The
Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of
Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2


Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the
Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in
mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or
"white" Egyptians dubious.


Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair
studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by
environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman
(1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is
usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment.
Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused
by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies
due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other
samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable
colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not
necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired
Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being
mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.

Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy
wrappings.
Racial analysis is also made problematic by the
Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary
deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from
Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from
excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples
Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is
natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair
extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is
also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed
locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings.
(The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins,
2004, p. 93-94, 96)


Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used
wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for
wigs through trade.
Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic"
hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may
be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a
wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of
inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.


The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural
hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs
in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body
adornment

(Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p.
101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved
except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many
adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of
coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about
bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs
were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all
classes.."


The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates
and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002)
shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is
defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly
a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or
admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed
their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs
widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through
trade. Indeed -quote - "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked
alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of
Kahun."



Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a
commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been
easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb,
Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives
or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little
need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or
populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb
proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be
much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further
demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan'
or predominantly European admixed Egypt.



Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt


Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile
valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of
straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th
century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig
himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his
natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig"
also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a
stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern
Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with
both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the
famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig:
"Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing
the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries
and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall
scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the
Nubian wig.
Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe
carried into combat.


Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic
variability


Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study
at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair
Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of
Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling
patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African
samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African
elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping
and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction.
These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race
admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants
or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of
variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which
cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a
routine occurrence within human groups.

Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has
the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of
features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix:
Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating
regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest
levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic
studies." (
Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional
Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population
Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5,
October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that
[significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan
Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras,
hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in,
indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural
practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained
through trade.

Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair
and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of
East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are
different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless
they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater
variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa
has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine
variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any
racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in
genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent.
Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially
in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations
(e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some
Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type
hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can
also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as
well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red
hair.


Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and
crania.
Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race'
model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white'
Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given
built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims
attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match
ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims
are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer
program used to put forward such claims, Williams,
Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created
ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and
peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others
in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of
human populations in the databank explained such wide
ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk
obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged
Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or
equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying
such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and
George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient
Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human
Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages
340-346)

Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners
to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen.

Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in
genetic and phenotypic diversity.
As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample
was close to both the Northwest European and East African
samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African
indigenous variability, and calls into questions various
migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example
(Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to
the notion of incoming European migrants replacing
indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also
suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as
Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis
failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much
closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that
similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and
non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in
African variability.

Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and
Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The
questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian
populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis
than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations,
and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian,
Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and
Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski
(2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient
Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of
Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical
body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of
inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native
Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).


The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic
Egypt?


Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of
dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example
routinely produce blonde hair:

Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985)
identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as
being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising
given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most
genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other
population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair
shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in
children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in
dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians.
(Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a
red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the
19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state
had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such
latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks,
Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the
nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with
Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or
"Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from
earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the
Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid'
leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.

Pheomelanin and Rameses- Dark haired populations routinely
produce light hair. Pheomelanin is found in light and
dark-haired populations:
The finding of Rameses “red” hair
also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of
dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were
untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in
Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of
pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and
hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in
persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which
gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur,
which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific
tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur,
3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding
the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996)
Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well
within the range of human variation for dark haired people,
whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.

Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but
yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra
straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence
.
Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they
routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for
any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also
did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red
to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations
are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color
variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and
northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color
variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in
Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair.
As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of
such variation.

The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again
a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile
valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of
straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the
notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from
other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation,
particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely.
Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and
Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years
preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other
genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used
in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental
oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.

Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence
of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to
give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation.

Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe,
especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor
frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is
unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in
the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is
comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin
conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is
well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa
and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen
in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925)
and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number
of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which
purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red"
hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has
debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not
common world wide, is a well known variant within human
populations, even those with dark hair.

Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like
Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations.
As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA
overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans
including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans &
Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1),
Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small
European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The
data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the
East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of
Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)


 -

As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value
of "racial" hair analysis:


"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that
the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish
races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories.
Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair
morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present
have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as
1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from
samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological
similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these
may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of
the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later
out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically
indistinguishable".

--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The
Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of
Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2


In numerous studies of mummies, alleged "red" hair turns
out to be affected by aging, chemical oxidation, dyeing and
other processes having nothing to do with red-headed visitors,
migrants, slaves or invaders. Red hair is rare worldwide,
occurring mostly in Northern EUrope and even then, only
within less that 9% of northern populations


"The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish
highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and
probably originated through post-mortem alteration
(Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure,
bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the
factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair
that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or
even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human
hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological
time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis
of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and
the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair
colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been
reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified
human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney,
1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002,
2007b)."


--C. Papageorgopoulou et al. 2008. Indications of embalming
in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological
analysis. Journal of Archaeological Science
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Straight hair comes from white mixture.... yeah right...

Maori
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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=18471&l=en

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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=16281&recordNum=9&f=tapuhigroupref%24PAColl-3979&s=a&l=mi

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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=18675&recordNum=36&f=tapuhigroupref%24PAColl-3979&s=a&l=mi

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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=9053&recordNum=37&f=tapuhigroupref%24PAColl-3979&s=a&l=mi

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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=4398&recordNum=51&f=tapuhigroupref%24PAColl-3979&s=a&l=mi

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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=18213&recordNum=92&f=tapuhigroupref%24PAColl-3979&s=a&l=mi

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http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=30497&recordNum=94&f=tapuhigroupref%24PAColl-3979&s=a&l=mi

India:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/angusjenkinson/3613891638/in/set-72157619750386665/
 
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
How come people who believe it's due to white admixture don't have to prove their case while we have to prove that it's not true?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
the people above are Mongolid and Negroid/Mongolid intermediate.
An intermediate is a transitional type not "admixed"
 
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
I wasn't commenting on the people above.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
The Problem is majority of the people who go around trying to say "Straight" hair in Africans is due to admixture with cold adapted leukoderms are ignorant racialists parroting tired arguments from the 20th century. As I said before the Europeans who actually studied Anthropology and Genetics/Biology know the deal. Like I said before if these people had any evidence to back up their claims they would have posted it. But the don't, so anything they say can eaisly be dismissed.

On the other hand, we have Africans and Tropical Asians(The Original AMHs) with both Straight, Curly and Kinky type hair in many places where there is not any significant admixture with Leukoderms. Further Straight and Curly(Non Kinky) hair is most prevelent in the place where AMH left Africa and has little significant Eurasian admixture.

We don't have to prove anything, as our case is already made. Go to South East Asia, and Indo China and you will see the same diversity of Features and Hair types as seen in Africa. This is backed up by Genetics, Biology, Archeology and Anthropology that Africans and Asians are the most diverse of AMHs. I mean how does it make sense that Straight hair evolved for Cold Climate and is passed onto Tropical people by admixture yet you have Jet black Tropical people with straight hair..lol. How does that work...??

On the flip side its been over 100 yrs and still no evidence that Straight hair came about with Leukoderms.

Too bad so sad.

Ill believe educated Biologists like Keita and my Anthro professor over Crack pot nobodies over the internet who post and spam DNA results without reading a single sentence from the actual study...Yeah Im REAAAAL sure you are qualified to discuss human evolution..lol.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
The most important thing to know is that while places like India are known for it straight haired black population, you also have folks in Asia with Curly and Kinky hair in Indo-China and S.East Asia.

 -

The Negritos hair is more Kinky in appearance but is loose similar to folks like the Fulani, Taureg and Beja...

 -

 -

 -

 -

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Straight hair comes from white mixture.... yeah right...



 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Go to South East Asia, and Indo China and you will see the same diversity of Features and Hair types as seen in Africa.

 -

this type of hair is not found in indigenous Africans, stop the politically correct feel good nonsense
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Some More Asian Blacks, From Melanesia...Notice how much they look like the Beja and Taureg and Fulani...

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Many of these people would fit right in in Africa. They look no different than Beja, Fulani, Somali, Ethiopians etc.
 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
You focus too much on complexion. Oceanic people are easily identifiable from East Africans by their sloping foreheads, more pronounced prognathism, generally more robust body type, and deep-set eyes.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Its amazing how much diversity AMH's produced and how we slowly adapted and mutated to better suit our enviroment. Its funny that whereever Leukoderms went and saw diversity and high culure in black peoples, they tried to inject themselves claiming some wandering Leukoderms gave blacks our diversity...lol.

The fact is that when it comes down to it Europeans and their Leukoderm Eurasian conterparts are the least diverse of AMH and are a recent adaption. In other words, they are nothing new or special.

They could disappear tommorrow and all the diversity of AMH would still be contained in the DNA of Tropical and other black peoples.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

And honestly they have been more of a plague and hinderance on Humanity and nature, spreading their moronic Cults and plagerized Religion, Pollution, Racism etc.

Maybe Zarahan is onto something..

 -
^^^^
Def. needs further investigation for the betterment of mankind, as it seems Leukoderms(Arabs, Chinese and other White Asians and Europeans) will dominante in the near future. Our planet has taken enough damage from the European Icemen, Imagine when Asia's and Eurasia's Icemen get on the world scene.
 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
Oceanic people have mixed with Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Erectus (Archaic Hominids). They aren't full-blooded humans. They have the highest recorded archaic blood in the world.
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
Oceanic people have mixed with Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Erectus (Archaic Hominids). They aren't full-blooded humans. They have the highest recorded archaic blood in the world.

[Eek!]

This Manu cat is too incredibly ignorant for words.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
^^^
Why bother, let them live in their fantasy world, if it helps their frail ego and sense of identity then so be it. The truth is most trained biologists know the truth, its just a matter of accepting it or not. As Jack Nicholson said...

"The Truth, You(They) Can't Handle the Truth"....

So just let them continue to believe their lies.
 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
Oceanic people have mixed with Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Erectus (Archaic Hominids). They aren't full-blooded humans. They have the highest recorded archaic blood in the world.

[Eek!]

This Manu cat is too incredibly ignorant for words.

 -

Here is a reconstructed Homo Erectus, it doesn't look like a proper human to me.

These archaics make up to 10% of Oceanic peoples' ancestry, which is quite a lot.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Manu

What study states that Oceanics have 10% archaic ancestry.

I will never believe in homo whatever.

The only thing that matters is that we are created beings and that we ALL belong under the Human family.

Black people world wide have links due to phenotype, features etc. To try and diminish these links is just plain dumb.

Don't be like cassi Manu and claim that these people are not really black because thats just dumb thinking.

It seems people feel better about themselves after saying degrading things about Whites etc. We can't fall into that trap and play the game of the racists on these forums. Hating based on little difference is not good and does not prove anything except ignorance. I truly enjoy reading what unites Blacks in Africa, and in Asia, but I don't agree with the talk about Humans mixing with homonids etc. When you degrade whites, you are allowing those racists to win and prove that they control what we talk about on these forums.


Wake Up, We are more alike then we are different.

Peace
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
Oceanic people have mixed with Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Erectus (Archaic Hominids). They aren't full-blooded humans. They have the highest recorded archaic blood in the world.

[Eek!]

This Manu cat is too incredibly ignorant for words.

 -

Here is a reconstructed Homo Erectus, it doesn't look like a proper human to me.

These archaics make up to 10% of Oceanic peoples' ancestry, which is quite a lot.

I don't care what it looks like to you.

Homo Erectus is obviously classified as Human, albeit an archaic one. Archaic Human ancestry is clinal in Modern Humans, and you and your kin, being non-African, are a part of this cline. You do realise this, right? Dumbass.

 -
 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Manu

What study states that Oceanics have 10% archaic ancestry.

~4% Homo Neanderthalis

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8660940.stm

~6% Homo Erectus

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12059564

Melanesians = ~10% non-Human

Homo Floresiensis' DNA hasn't been extracted yet. I wouldn't be surprised if Melanesians also had a few percent Homo Floresiensis (even more non-human blood).
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Clyde says the original Neanderthals were black

Also:

you are familiar with the
 -

becoming leucoderms 6-12,0000 yrs ago

But Neanderthals died out around 30,000 yrs ago

do the math, the black folk were the ones mating with the Neanderthals, there were no leucos until 18000 or more years later

lioness productions
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Homo-Erectus was Human, just not Anatomically Modern. The fact remains though that that is a reconstruction...here are some other Homo-Erectus reconstruction..

 -

 -

I don't get how you are basing your argument off of a reconstuction in the first place, I mean you do realize its art not an actual photo right??

quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
Oceanic people have mixed with Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Erectus (Archaic Hominids). They aren't full-blooded humans. They have the highest recorded archaic blood in the world.

[Eek!]

This Manu cat is too incredibly ignorant for words.

 -

Here is a reconstructed Homo Erectus, it doesn't look like a proper human to me.

These archaics make up to 10% of Oceanic peoples' ancestry, which is quite a lot.


 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
They weren't human.

Human = East African AMH ancestry.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Your whole argument rests on a reconsturction of Homo-Erectus. Nothing you say makes much sense, Meleanasians are AMH. You're dumbass is just doing flips to explain the diversity of Tropical and Black Asians, First Leukoderms gave Africans our diversity now Homo-Erectus gave Asians theirs.

The nerve...

The depths of lies you people come up with is mind boggling.

quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Manu

What study states that Oceanics have 10% archaic ancestry.

~4% Homo Neanderthalis

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8660940.stm

~6% Homo Erectus

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12059564

Melanesians = ~10% non-Human

Homo Floresiensis' DNA hasn't been extracted yet. I wouldn't be surprised if Melanesians also had a few percent Homo Floresiensis (even more non-human blood).


 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
Melanesians carry around 10% non-human blood, this is a simple fact. It is what it is.

They probably have even more non-human blood than what's currently documented, since Homo Floresiensis' DNA has never been extracted.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Lying Snake...

Homo-Erectus were Human, hence their classification in the genus Homo. They were not Anatomically Modern Humans moron.

Lying snake, do you even listen to yourself, You sit up here in the same sentence and say Homo-Erectus is not Human..

If they were not Human why are you calling them Homo(Human)...

Stay out of Grown folks conversation...This is too complicated for you.

silly clown, Read your Koran or Arabian Nights and go back to bed...

quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
They weren't human.

Human = East African AMH ancestry.


 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Lying Snake in the Grass...

I fail to see what this has to do with anything discusssed so far.

Last I checked, you have some Neadertal blood in you. Neadertals were primitive and archaic, and had cognition similar to chimps.

Are you Human Manu, with that failed to produce a single work of art or high expression after thousands of years before going extinct Neandertal blood running through your veins??

Go back to bed, face Mecca and pray to Allah.

This is too complicated for you.

quote:
Originally posted by Manu the Lying Grass Snake:
Melanesians carry around 10% non-human blood, this is a simple fact. It is what it is.

They probably have even more non-human blood than what's currently documented, since Homo Floresiensis' DNA has never been extracted.


 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] Its amazing how much diversity AMH's produced and how we slowly adapted and mutated to better suit our enviroment.

is hair adapted to suit an environement or just random?
remember to back your reply with peer reviewed blah blah blahs by expert professionals
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Just Call Me Jari

This is what I was getting at when I asked about these socalled mixing of Oceanics and homonids.

It's another excuse to pick on, and make fun of Black people.

Manu wants to say these blacks are not really Human and should be degraded for it.

Then because they have straighter hair, he wants to state that they got this from mixing with these socalled homonids.

It's really an slick way of debating that he is doing. Have Africans think they are better then Black Asians because of the socalled archaic genes and have them then disrespect Black Asians the same way Somalis make fun of Bantus. ANd how Horners like Kokakola don't want to believe that Bantus are closer to Ancient Egyptians then Horners.

It's all an sly move for dividing and conquer. Don't fall for it Jari, Swenet etc.

Peace
 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lying Snake in the Grass...

I fail to see what this has to do with anything discusssed so far.

Last I checked, you have some Neadertal blood in you. Neadertals were primitive and archaic, and had cognition similar to chimps.

Are you Human Manu, with that failed to produce a single work of art or high expression after thousands of years before going extinct Neandertal blood running through your veins??

Go back to bed, face Mecca and pray to Allah.

This is too complicated for you.

West Eurasians have some non-human blood, but it's much much lower than that of Melanesians.

Sub-Saharan Africans (excluding East Africans) also have non-human blood by way of admixture with archaic paleo-West Africans.
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lying Snake...

Homo-Erectus were Human, hence their classification in the genus Homo. They were not Anatomically Modern Humans moron.

Lying snake, do you even listen to yourself, You sit up here in the same sentence and say Homo-Erectus is not Human..

If they were not Human why are you calling them Homo(Human)...

Stay out of Grown folks conversation...This is too complicated for you.

silly clown, Read your Koran or Arabian Nights and go back to bed...

quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
They weren't human.

Human = East African AMH ancestry.


^Manu can be classed with the other other trolls as far as I'm concerned. Neanderthals and other Archaic Humans are thought of as being on the path to becoming fully Modern Human variants, just like our contemporary AMH ancestors eventually became fully modern.

Archaic Humans obviously weren't static; just like Modern Humans they would have eventually refined to more ''modern'' morphological configurations, were they still alive today. High levels of Archaic Human ancestry in Oceaneans, Japanese, Chinese etc. therefore isn't the same as what it was 70.000 years when the first wave of AMH absorbed Archaic Human ancestry. All people alive today = Human, despite varying degrees of archaic human ancestry.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Once again I fail to see what this has to do with anything discussed thus far??

The Current population of Hominids alive today are all Anatomically Modern Humans. So why are you ranting about Oceanics having Archaic blood when they are AMH and Genetically link back to the OOA migrants??

Does it upset you so to know how Little you and your ilk had to do with Human evolution and diversity??

You have Neadertal blood in your veins, Are you Human, Manu with that failed to produce a single work of art or high expression after thousands of years neandertal blood in you??
quote:
Originally posted by Manu the Lying Grass Snake:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lying Snake in the Grass...

I fail to see what this has to do with anything discusssed so far.

Last I checked, you have some Neadertal blood in you. Neadertals were primitive and archaic, and had cognition similar to chimps.

Are you Human Manu, with that failed to produce a single work of art or high expression after thousands of years before going extinct Neandertal blood running through your veins??

Go back to bed, face Mecca and pray to Allah.

This is too complicated for you.

Yes, West Eurasians have some non-human blood, but it's much much lower than that of Melanesians.

Sub-Saharan Africans (excluding East Africans) also have non-human blood by way of admixture with archaic paleo-West Africans.


 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
Dude, this is not a human:

H. Neanderthalis
 -

H. Erectus
 -

^^Make up ~10% of Australoid's ancestry, which is a lot.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
-Sigh-


Manu the above is all art work. Homo-Erectus is a Human, as it fullfilled the requirements of modern Human behavior. It was not Anatomically Modern, maybe English is your second language but there is a reason why we call thm "Anatomically Modern" Humans.

Also I fail to see what this has to do with anything discussed??

-Sigh-
 
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
 
And then there still is:

H. Floresiensis

 -

Another Asian archaic, its DNA hasn't been extracted yet, but I am sure it contributed to the modern Australoid gene pool.

So Australoids are probably up to 15% non-human, a world record in archaic blood.
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
I honestly think he is messing around to get kicks out of people. If anything Manu might be an old mod trying to make sure we cont' to post at E.S. Im still convinced Lioness is AMR1.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lying Snake...

Homo-Erectus were Human, hence their classification in the genus Homo. They were not Anatomically Modern Humans moron.

Lying snake, do you even listen to yourself, You sit up here in the same sentence and say Homo-Erectus is not Human..

If they were not Human why are you calling them Homo(Human)...

Stay out of Grown folks conversation...This is too complicated for you.

silly clown, Read your Koran or Arabian Nights and go back to bed...

quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
They weren't human.

Human = East African AMH ancestry.


^Manu can be classed with the other other trolls as far as I'm concerned. Neanderthals and other Archaic Humans are thought of as being on the path to becoming fully Modern Human variants, just like our contemporary AMH ancestors eventually became fully modern.

Archaic Humans obviously weren't static; just like Modern Humans they would have eventually refined to more ''modern'' morphological configurations, were they still alive today. High levels of Archaic Human ancestry in Oceaneans, Japanese, Chinese etc. therefore isn't the same as what it was 70.000 years when the first wave of AMH absorbed Archaic Human ancestry. All people alive today = Human, despite varying degrees of archaic human ancestry.


 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Manu Emmanuel are you going to tell me what your rant has to do with anything discussed so far or are you going to keep hiding in the Grass...

I await your response Emmanuel

 -
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
this thread seems racist against Neanderthals.
What if neanderthals were actually more peaceful and we killed them all?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
I checked into AMR1 but didn't think he was funny enough to convince me I might be him
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
LOL! Some Europeans are such pathological liars it is ridiculous, claiming features and traits as "unique" to or originating in Europe when you see it all over the planet in indigenous populations. But even though your eyeballs see otherwise, you still follow the nonsense.

Asian brown hair in Mongolia:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/julielaurent/5979198511/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/julielaurent/5979112805/
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Anyway, back on the topic of Berbers.....

Berber videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-JR9D1Nzo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e4Rtkkhwyg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpRm_VeXsOg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcl-lNeoy54&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gaDO3a2Apw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLRkMjeidw8&feature=related

Check that deep bass beat on this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iud226YrwCI&feature=related

This one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu2ixQCo250&feature=related

Part three ahwach and the drum (I like the old architecture stuff too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkaIww4ZJNs&feature=related

With women:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=J_zO4aGKF_c
 
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Manu Emmanuel

Dont Run bro...

Manu Emmanuel are you going to tell me what your rant has to do with anything discussed so far or are you going to keep hiding in the Grass...

I await your response Emmanuel


 -

Don't Run...
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The Problem is majority of the people who go around trying to say "Straight" hair in Africans is due to admixture with cold adapted leukoderms are ignorant racialists parroting tired arguments from the 20th century. As I said before the Europeans who actually studied Anthropology and Genetics/Biology know the deal. Like I said before if these people had any evidence to back up their claims they would have posted it. But the don't, so anything they say can eaisly be dismissed.

On the other hand, we have Africans and Tropical Asians(The Original AMHs) with both Straight, Curly and Kinky type hair in many places where there is not any significant admixture with Leukoderms. Further Straight and Curly(Non Kinky) hair is most prevelent in the place where AMH left Africa and has little significant Eurasian admixture.

We don't have to prove anything, as our case is already made. Go to South East Asia, and Indo China and you will see the same diversity of Features and Hair types as seen in Africa. This is backed up by Genetics, Biology, Archeology and Anthropology that Africans and Asians are the most diverse of AMHs. I mean how does it make sense that Straight hair evolved for Cold Climate and is passed onto Tropical people by admixture yet you have Jet black Tropical people with straight hair..lol. How does that work...??

On the flip side its been over 100 yrs and still no evidence that Straight hair came about with Leukoderms.

Too bad so sad.

Ill believe educated Biologists like Keita and my Anthro professor over Crack pot nobodies over the internet who post and spam DNA results without reading a single sentence from the actual study...Yeah Im REAAAAL sure you are qualified to discuss human evolution..lol.

The problem with this argument is that the people making the claim that red and straight hair originates with whites are biologists and anthropologists who make ambiguous claims like hair color is associated with pale skin. They then go on to claim that it was the adaption to colder environments that was responsible for the development of such traits. However, the problem is that they allow those who don't understand biology and human genetics to extrapolate that this means such things as certain hair colors originate with Northwest Europeans, which is blatantly false. And that is the reason why so many can therefore claim that red hair, blonde hair and other hair or eye colors is a trait of European origin when it isn't. The fact is that from a biological and genetics point of view, those traits for hair color have been present since the origin of humans in Africa and the genes for such traits were present in the very first populations of humans. Most hair color is in reality a very dark shade of brown and varies in color due to genetic drift and natural selection. Therefore you will find these traits present in a wide variety of populations and they are not all pale skinned. You will find many colors of hair among indigenous mainland Asian populations (who are far more numerous than Europeans). And where do they get their hair colors from? Of course they get them from their aboriginal forebears, who also carried such traits and who can still be seen in various parts of Asia with such traits. Hence, the idea that these traits of hair color originate in the adaptation of humans to the colder environments of Europe is pure nonsense.

However, it is true that the environments of Europe have played a role in terms of natural selection and genetic drift for a higher occurrence of various hair colors among the populations there. That is absolutely correct. But that does not mean that the genes for such traits or the traits themselves originated among populations who adapted to the cold environments of Europe.
 
Posted by MOORISH AMERICAN (Member # 19654) on :
 
http://youtu.be/488bJNmcF7Y
 
Posted by MOORISH AMERICAN (Member # 19654) on :
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLHz9pNCPUI
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Just as I thought nobody has come upon information about a Berber tribes, being fair in color before the 16th century. Maybe I should push this back to the 17th and see what happens.

BTW - I don't consider most members of tribes like the Antassar, Lamtuna modern Aulamidden and other Tuareg groups that were called abyad or Biyad in the Arabic texts white or even "fair".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qicTYQ0Ca0s&feature=channel_video_title
Tartit performing group belonging to the so called "white Berbers" of al Antassar and Yantar'aras" of Mali - mostly the color of many African American families.
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qicTYQ0Ca0s&feature=channel_video_title
Tartit performing group belonging to the so called "white Berbers" of al Antassar and Yantar'aras" of Mali - mostly the color of many African American families. [/QB]

Compare and contrast w/t cold mountains to the north.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCuS5ZDtmsA

Definitely mix (music people land all 3 reflect mix).

The Kel Tagelmoust are purer by far.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The mountains of Abyssinia are very cold Tukuler. But, one doesnt'see that the people look much different there than the rest of the Africans. On the other hand, Djurjura, where my ex- husband a Kabyle from is the home of the ancient Roman settlers in North Algeria , as well as many Syrians and other people later. Naturally the older Berber people there before Amazigh nationalism claimed other origins including as my husband's grandfather apparently used to say from Sicily.
So you are right on track with the idea of mixture, not due to cold though. [Wink]


 -
Tagelmoust - of Niger
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.

I tend to go with the idea that blacks in India and Africa are straight have straight hair when they are mixed with Eurasians or Asian populations. It is obvious that aboriginal Australians have mixed with Dravidians and the once extremely black Dravidians have absorbed with Iranic or other Asian peoples. That is why some have kinky hair and others have wavy hair. That is why some Amhara or Somali or Tuareg have kinky hair while others have wavy or curly hair. This may have come as early as the neolithic in some regions but I doubt that it was originally a tropical trait of black Africans.

If you look at how black some of the Somali and Dravidians which is black as ink (and I am not exagerrating)you can see why they could have remained dark brownish or near black and still have wavy or curly hair. The same goes for the Beja.

In my view most Indians are a fixed type that is neither fully black nor European (Iranic) or Asian due to their very ancient intermixture that stems back to the neolithic.

Aboriginal Indians and Australians arrived in that part of the world before there was a white person on the planet. Simply put they represent branches of the original black African root and the variability that comes with it. The pacific and South Asia are the areas of greatest phenotypic diversity in Asia and these are the areas where black skin has remained the longest. This indicates both that tropically adapted people have been in Asia the longest and that the diversity in Asia grew out of such populations. Hence you have blonde haired people in the Pacific who have 0 mixture from anywhere else. That has absolutely nothing to do with Eurasian whites. The first straight haired person on earth was an aboriginal black person.

quote:

Understanding the genetic history of Laos

The rapid initial colonization of Southeast Asia at some time after 60 kYBP along the "Southern Coastal Route" was followed by an expansion in situ (while other groups moved on), a dispersal into the continent and onto the islands, and the subsequent differentiation of ethnic groups with common origin but diverging lineages (most of which arose during the last stadial of the Würm glacial, 30-10 kYBP, probably in different refugia) [3,7,26,37,38]. We confirmed this in our analyses: the novel basal M haplogroups found in high diversity in the Laos sample and surrounding populations support the fast migration and in situ differentiation model (see Figure 3). Despite of little evolutionary time, the linguistically separated groups also clearly differed genetically (see Figure 4).

The original genetic structure of MSEA with distinct areas inhabited by the main ethnic groups - the Daic in the coastal areas of the Southeast, the Austro-Asiatic in Western and central MSEA, the Sino-Tibetan (Tibeto-Burmans and Han) in the North and the Hmong-Mien in today's central China - has been blurred by massive migrations [3,7]. In the past 2600 years, the Tibeto-Burmans moved from the Northwest and the Himalayan area to the South, absorbing indigenous lineages [4]. In the past 2000 years, several waves of Han expansions to the West and South caused massive displacements of indigenous minorities [3,4,6,7]. The Daic were forced southward by the expanding Han in a fanning spread and are now mainly found west of Hong Kong. In today's Laos, they formed small city states in the North from the late 11th century AD and later moved to the central and Southern plains, thereby repelling the Austro-Asiatic population to the highlands or assimilating them. Today, the Daic "lowlander" living in the plains and along the rivers constitute the major proportion (60-65%) of the Laos population. They are dominant in language, culture, media and politics [1-3,6,10,39]. The Hmong-Mien are the newest arrival: they were continuously forced to the Southwestern areas already settled by Austro-Asiatic and Southern Tibeto-Burmans. They immigrated to the hilly North of Laos only in the past several hundred years and today exhibit a pattern of refuge ("highlander"), rather than a positive expansion

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/49

Adivasi or Aboriginal populations of India look very similar to Australian aborigines:

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5044086304/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5043431395/in/photostream/

Australia
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938476407/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938511051/in/photostream/

Note the red hair among these children, which is often found in aboriginal populations across South Asia and the pacific. Again, nothing to do with ancient Eurasian white admixture.

People need to understand that ancient aboriginal populations were extremely diverse and bursting with variation in physical traits (but generally still dark). Later populations are much less diverse than those ancient aboriginal groups. Most traits in white Eurasian populations first originated among aboriginal blacks.

Aborignal populations of North Africa would also fit into this same pattern. Some call them "intermediate" but in reality many of them would have looked similar to aboriginal South Asians with straighter hair and other features often found in Europe. But since Northern Africa has had a very harsh environment for the last few thousand years, the settled populations there were very small and easily overrun or absorbed by later migrants. It is for this reason that many European researchers and many Eurocentrics on this thread focus on the extreme coasts of North Africa as those areas have been the most susceptible to foreign migrations. But that geographic area is not even 1/10th of North Africa, so using those populations as typical is a contradiction in terms, as they are "outliers" among the North African population expanse. But for the purposes of Europeans claiming that these Eurasian whites are ancient and aboriginal to North Africa, they become the target of most research. Evan as 1) these areas are the ones featuring most migration and influence over the last 3000 years. 2) These areas are a small percentage of North Africa proper and 3) Most populations in Northern Africa are semi nomadic because of the environment and therefore have been moving around.

Not only that, but these same European researchers often apply the label "Berber" to any ancient remains and artifacts they find in these same areas, even though the term is one of language not physical anthropology. Labeling a set of remains as "Berber" in order to assign the Berber languages to those populations historically most subject to Eurasian migration. Again, most of this is done to present a false positive data set implying that Berber language and identity is exclusively the product of Eurasian migrations to North Africa, when it is not. Speaking of "Berber" remains in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is pure nonsense as that is the upper range suggested for the existence of such languages.

Good example of what I mean in Tunisia:
 -

 -

But this could be found across North Africa. Libya is another example of tall dark African "mediterranean" type.

http://www.abcdelacpa.com/tunisie_types.html

And just to show that Europeans know more about this than you think, look at the way Sidney Poitier was done up with Straight Hair for the movie "The Long Ships".

There are probably very few aboriginal peoples left in India aside from those who mixed with the Aryan and other incomers. I consider the Jarawa peoples close to pure aboriginal although I do think some of the earliest people in India may have had straight hair. Many of the adivasis have still kinky hair though.
The North African boy above looks like a Gnawa whose been mixed with some non-African type. It just shows what's been happening in India over the past centuries or milleniums. Eve some Siddis have straight hair. There are plenty of near white Gnawas for that matter.

Any black family that comes from a lot of mulattos knows how easy it is to come out very dark with straight hair and even blond and red hair so their is no guarantee a lot of adavisis didn't get the color of their hair recently. India is a very old country whose people have been absorbing Iranic types for thousands of years.

Straight hair is a biological adaptation and random mutation that first occurred among the early humans in Africa and then among the early OOA Africans in South Asia and elsewhere. This has absolutely nothing to do with admixture. The Adivasi are aboriginal Indians and closely related to the Aboriganal peoples of Australia who also have straight hair and blondism. They simply represent one subset to evolve straight hair among the OOA migrants in South Asia, whereas others maintained curly hair like the Papuans and Negritoes. However, other aboriginal populations in South Asia also had straight hair and were also black. For example the original Samoans and Maori also were black with straight hair. It is simply part of the natural diversity of OOA and Aboriginal populations in South Asia, the Pacific and Australia. And yes similar features also developed in Africa like the Nile Valley and parts of North Africa as well. Many Fulani are often noted as having staighter hair and they are not mixed with anyone.

And the theory of mixture causing Indian populations to have straight hair also makes no sense because there are very few Indians with curly hair, but a great many jet black Indians with straight hair. In order for this to be the result of mixture, then other traits would also have had to been passed down as well, most notably light skin, but that is not present amongst the majority of Indians and definitely not the Aboriginal Indians to support such a theory of Admixture.

There are plenty of adivasis or tribals in india with kinky hair Doug. How do these photos change the fact that most of the population of black India has aborbed Iranic blood over the last 6000 years. There are plenty of straight haired people some with orangey hair in the Sahara and Somalia as well as now South America. Are you going saying that those are all originally straight haired people?!


 -
Perfect example of what I'm talking about the common and recent admixture. This guy of probable Soninke and white (slave?) origin like so many of the Zawagha/Zaghawa originated inhabitants of Tunisian and other Saharan oases.

The idea of a straight haired Eurafrican "Mediterranean" with black skin i.e. "the hamite" - is a silly racist lie to explain how Egypt and other African civilizations were created by darkened originally white Africans! Then of course these blackened Africans were said to have gradually acquired the kinkier hair due to "Negro" admixture.

Furthermore - your so-called "aboriginal" indians are from the same place other black populations with similar cultures were from in the Near East and Africa. Some arrived in the Indian peninsula during the mesolithic, some during neolithic, others came as late as the Bronze Age. A very few probably are of paleolithic derivation and the latter were probably straight-haired - but not necessarily ancestral to the people you posted.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

Actually the last part about the hair is not true since we know blacks not only in India and Southwest Asia but even in Africa can have hair that is not kinky at all but loose and wavy as discussed here.

I tend to go with the idea that blacks in India and Africa are straight have straight hair when they are mixed with Eurasians or Asian populations. It is obvious that aboriginal Australians have mixed with Dravidians and the once extremely black Dravidians have absorbed with Iranic or other Asian peoples. That is why some have kinky hair and others have wavy hair. That is why some Amhara or Somali or Tuareg have kinky hair while others have wavy or curly hair. This may have come as early as the neolithic in some regions but I doubt that it was originally a tropical trait of black Africans.

If you look at how black some of the Somali and Dravidians which is black as ink (and I am not exagerrating)you can see why they could have remained dark brownish or near black and still have wavy or curly hair. The same goes for the Beja.

In my view most Indians are a fixed type that is neither fully black nor European (Iranic) or Asian due to their very ancient intermixture that stems back to the neolithic.

Aboriginal Indians and Australians arrived in that part of the world before there was a white person on the planet. Simply put they represent branches of the original black African root and the variability that comes with it. The pacific and South Asia are the areas of greatest phenotypic diversity in Asia and these are the areas where black skin has remained the longest. This indicates both that tropically adapted people have been in Asia the longest and that the diversity in Asia grew out of such populations. Hence you have blonde haired people in the Pacific who have 0 mixture from anywhere else. That has absolutely nothing to do with Eurasian whites. The first straight haired person on earth was an aboriginal black person.

quote:

Understanding the genetic history of Laos

The rapid initial colonization of Southeast Asia at some time after 60 kYBP along the "Southern Coastal Route" was followed by an expansion in situ (while other groups moved on), a dispersal into the continent and onto the islands, and the subsequent differentiation of ethnic groups with common origin but diverging lineages (most of which arose during the last stadial of the Würm glacial, 30-10 kYBP, probably in different refugia) [3,7,26,37,38]. We confirmed this in our analyses: the novel basal M haplogroups found in high diversity in the Laos sample and surrounding populations support the fast migration and in situ differentiation model (see Figure 3). Despite of little evolutionary time, the linguistically separated groups also clearly differed genetically (see Figure 4).

The original genetic structure of MSEA with distinct areas inhabited by the main ethnic groups - the Daic in the coastal areas of the Southeast, the Austro-Asiatic in Western and central MSEA, the Sino-Tibetan (Tibeto-Burmans and Han) in the North and the Hmong-Mien in today's central China - has been blurred by massive migrations [3,7]. In the past 2600 years, the Tibeto-Burmans moved from the Northwest and the Himalayan area to the South, absorbing indigenous lineages [4]. In the past 2000 years, several waves of Han expansions to the West and South caused massive displacements of indigenous minorities [3,4,6,7]. The Daic were forced southward by the expanding Han in a fanning spread and are now mainly found west of Hong Kong. In today's Laos, they formed small city states in the North from the late 11th century AD and later moved to the central and Southern plains, thereby repelling the Austro-Asiatic population to the highlands or assimilating them. Today, the Daic "lowlander" living in the plains and along the rivers constitute the major proportion (60-65%) of the Laos population. They are dominant in language, culture, media and politics [1-3,6,10,39]. The Hmong-Mien are the newest arrival: they were continuously forced to the Southwestern areas already settled by Austro-Asiatic and Southern Tibeto-Burmans. They immigrated to the hilly North of Laos only in the past several hundred years and today exhibit a pattern of refuge ("highlander"), rather than a positive expansion

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/49

Adivasi or Aboriginal populations of India look very similar to Australian aborigines:

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5044086304/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/in2theworld/5043431395/in/photostream/

Australia
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938476407/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/5938511051/in/photostream/

Note the red hair among these children, which is often found in aboriginal populations across South Asia and the pacific. Again, nothing to do with ancient Eurasian white admixture.

People need to understand that ancient aboriginal populations were extremely diverse and bursting with variation in physical traits (but generally still dark). Later populations are much less diverse than those ancient aboriginal groups. Most traits in white Eurasian populations first originated among aboriginal blacks.

Aborignal populations of North Africa would also fit into this same pattern. Some call them "intermediate" but in reality many of them would have looked similar to aboriginal South Asians with straighter hair and other features often found in Europe. But since Northern Africa has had a very harsh environment for the last few thousand years, the settled populations there were very small and easily overrun or absorbed by later migrants. It is for this reason that many European researchers and many Eurocentrics on this thread focus on the extreme coasts of North Africa as those areas have been the most susceptible to foreign migrations. But that geographic area is not even 1/10th of North Africa, so using those populations as typical is a contradiction in terms, as they are "outliers" among the North African population expanse. But for the purposes of Europeans claiming that these Eurasian whites are ancient and aboriginal to North Africa, they become the target of most research. Evan as 1) these areas are the ones featuring most migration and influence over the last 3000 years. 2) These areas are a small percentage of North Africa proper and 3) Most populations in Northern Africa are semi nomadic because of the environment and therefore have been moving around.

Not only that, but these same European researchers often apply the label "Berber" to any ancient remains and artifacts they find in these same areas, even though the term is one of language not physical anthropology. Labeling a set of remains as "Berber" in order to assign the Berber languages to those populations historically most subject to Eurasian migration. Again, most of this is done to present a false positive data set implying that Berber language and identity is exclusively the product of Eurasian migrations to North Africa, when it is not. Speaking of "Berber" remains in North Africa over 5,000 years ago is pure nonsense as that is the upper range suggested for the existence of such languages.

Good example of what I mean in Tunisia:
 -

 -

But this could be found across North Africa. Libya is another example of tall dark African "mediterranean" type.

http://www.abcdelacpa.com/tunisie_types.html

And just to show that Europeans know more about this than you think, look at the way Sidney Poitier was done up with Straight Hair for the movie "The Long Ships".

There are probably very few aboriginal peoples left in India aside from those who mixed with the Aryan and other incomers. I consider the Jarawa peoples close to pure aboriginal although I do think some of the earliest people in India may have had straight hair. Many of the adivasis have still kinky hair though.
The North African boy above looks like a Gnawa whose been mixed with some non-African type. It just shows what's been happening in India over the past centuries or milleniums. Eve some Siddis have straight hair. There are plenty of near white Gnawas for that matter.

Any black family that comes from a lot of mulattos knows how easy it is to come out very dark with straight hair and even blond and red hair so their is no guarantee a lot of adavisis didn't get the color of their hair recently. India is a very old country whose people have been absorbing Iranic types for thousands of years.

Straight hair is a biological adaptation and random mutation that first occurred among the early humans in Africa and then among the early OOA Africans in South Asia and elsewhere. This has absolutely nothing to do with admixture. The Adivasi are aboriginal Indians and closely related to the Aboriganal peoples of Australia who also have straight hair and blondism. They simply represent one subset to evolve straight hair among the OOA migrants in South Asia, whereas others maintained curly hair like the Papuans and Negritoes. However, other aboriginal populations in South Asia also had straight hair and were also black. For example the original Samoans and Maori also were black with straight hair. It is simply part of the natural diversity of OOA and Aboriginal populations in South Asia, the Pacific and Australia. And yes similar features also developed in Africa like the Nile Valley and parts of North Africa as well. Many Fulani are often noted as having staighter hair and they are not mixed with anyone.

And the theory of mixture causing Indian populations to have straight hair also makes no sense because there are very few Indians with curly hair, but a great many jet black Indians with straight hair. In order for this to be the result of mixture, then other traits would also have had to been passed down as well, most notably light skin, but that is not present amongst the majority of Indians and definitely not the Aboriginal Indians to support such a theory of Admixture.

There are plenty of adivasis or tribals in india with kinky hair Doug. How do these photos change the fact that most of the population of black India has aborbed Iranic blood over the last 6000 years. There are plenty of straight haired people some with orangey hair in the Sahara and Somalia as well as now South America. Are you going saying that those are all originally straight haired people?!


 -
Perfect example of what I'm talking about the common and recent admixture. This guy of probable Soninke and white (slave?) origin like so many of the Zawagha/Zaghawa originated inhabitants of Tunisian and other Saharan oases.

The idea of a straight haired Eurafrican "Mediterranean" with black skin i.e. "the hamite" - is a silly racist lie to explain how Egypt and other African civilizations were created by darkened originally white Africans! Then of course these blackened Africans were said to have gradually acquired the kinkier hair due to "Negro" admixture.

Furthermore - your so-called "aboriginal" indians are from the same place other black populations with similar cultures were from in the Near East and Africa. Some arrived in the Indian peninsula during the mesolithic, some during neolithic, others came as late as the Bronze Age. A very few probably are of paleolithic derivation and the latter were probably straight-haired - but not necessarily ancestral to the people you posted.

Sorry Dana, I don't buy the nonsense that straight hair in India or anywhere else came from white people. There are black aboriginal people all over Asia including Australia that have been there since before there was a white person on the planet. Therefore, straight hair in a place like India, which is present in the vast majority of the population, including those who are coal black, cannot be because of mixing with Iranians. The black Iranians even from the ancient depictions in Persia had straight hair because they too are part of the ancient IndoIranian stock which was black as well.
So yes, there are some black Aboriginal populations in Asia with curly hair but there are many more with straight hair.

Straight hair does not originate with white people.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Perfect example of what I mean are the Tamils. Now these are people from the very southern tip of India. You mean to tell me that the Persians who number far fewer than the total population of India, even in ancient times somehow came in and magically mixed with a continent 20 times its size in population and gave them all straight hair? Please. That is nonsense. Population statistics for India and Iran: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRN&dl=en&hl=en&q=iranian+population#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl &scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:IRN:IND&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en The mixed people of Indo Iranian stock are mostly lighter skinned people and represent a segment of Indian society. They keep to their own. You see them most often in Bollywood movies. But most of their features come from the aboriginal blacks of South Asia. Which makes more sense: Iranians went and screwed everyone on the whole continent of India and turned coal black people with curly hair to coal black people with straight hair or the gene for straight hair was already dominant among the aboriginal populations of India from day one? I think the latter as I said the Aboriginals of India are shown to be closely related to those of Australia and we all know those in Australia also have straighter hair. All of these are Tamils, except one. But even that one blends with the rest perfectly.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/firozeshakir/5687795885/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darpi/3215049392/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darpi/3215049890/in/photostream/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/darpi/3515676133/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darpi/3306029946/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darpi/3237394405/in/photostream


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http://www.flickr.com/photos/88938785@N00/5485488060/in/photostream/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88938785@N00/5414576420/in/photostream

Even the ancient statues of the Indus valley show black folks with straight hair.


quote:

The Human Genome Organisation's (HUGO) Pan-Asian SNP Consortium carried out a study of almost 2,000 people across the continent.

Their findings support the hypothesis that Asia was populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

The researchers described their findings in the journal Science.

They found genetic similarities between populations throughout Asia and an increase in genetic diversity from northern to southern latitudes.

The team screened genetic samples from 73 Asian populations for more than 50,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

These are variations in pieces of the DNA code, which can be compared to find out how closely related two individuals are genetically.

This is the first study to give a clear answer to the question on the origin of East Asian populations
Shuhua Xu
Chinese Academy of Sciences

The study found that, as expected, individuals who were from the same region, or who shared a common language also had a great deal in common genetically.

But it also answered a question about the origin of Asia's population. It showed that the continent was likely populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

Previously, there has been some debate about whether Asia was populated in two waves - one to South East Asia, and a later one to central and north-east Asia, or whether only a single migration occurred.

Diversity explained

Edison Liu from the Genome Institute of Singapore was a leading member of the consortium.

He explained that the age of a population has a much bigger effect on genetic diversity than the population size.

"It seems likely from our data that they entered South East Asia first - making these populations older [and therefore more diverse]," he said.

"[It continued] later and probably more slowly to the north, with diversity being lost along the way in these 'younger' populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406506.stm
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
All over Asia and the pacific you got populations of ancient aboriginal blacks with straight hair along with those who have curly hair. It isn't due to mixing.

TRUK ISland:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14396340@N02/4946152287/in/set-72157624851705322/lightbox/

Marshall Islands:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/350org/5069583044/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2474273648/in/photostream

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2498245955/in/photostream

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2461128614/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2437587977/in/photostream/lightbox/
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The Problem is majority of the people who go around trying to say "Straight" hair in Africans is due to admixture with cold adapted leukoderms are ignorant racialists parroting tired arguments from the 20th century. As I said before the Europeans who actually studied Anthropology and Genetics/Biology know the deal. Like I said before if these people had any evidence to back up their claims they would have posted it. But the don't, so anything they say can eaisly be dismissed.

On the other hand, we have Africans and Tropical Asians(The Original AMHs) with both Straight, Curly and Kinky type hair in many places where there is not any significant admixture with Leukoderms. Further Straight and Curly(Non Kinky) hair is most prevelent in the place where AMH left Africa and has little significant Eurasian admixture.

We don't have to prove anything, as our case is already made. Go to South East Asia, and Indo China and you will see the same diversity of Features and Hair types as seen in Africa. This is backed up by Genetics, Biology, Archeology and Anthropology that Africans and Asians are the most diverse of AMHs. I mean how does it make sense that Straight hair evolved for Cold Climate and is passed onto Tropical people by admixture yet you have Jet black Tropical people with straight hair..lol. How does that work...??

On the flip side its been over 100 yrs and still no evidence that Straight hair came about with Leukoderms.

Too bad so sad.

Ill believe educated Biologists like Keita and my Anthro professor over Crack pot nobodies over the internet who post and spam DNA results without reading a single sentence from the actual study...Yeah Im REAAAAL sure you are qualified to discuss human evolution..lol.

The problem with this argument is that the people making the claim that red and straight hair originates with whites are biologists and anthropologists who make ambiguous claims like hair color is associated with pale skin. They then go on to claim that it was the adaption to colder environments that was responsible for the development of such traits. However, the problem is that they allow those who don't understand biology and human genetics to extrapolate that this means such things as certain hair colors originate with Northwest Europeans, which is blatantly false. And that is the reason why so many can therefore claim that red hair, blonde hair and other hair or eye colors is a trait of European origin when it isn't. The fact is that from a biological and genetics point of view, those traits for hair color have been present since the origin of humans in Africa and the genes for such traits were present in the very first populations of humans. Most hair color is in reality a very dark shade of brown and varies in color due to genetic drift and natural selection. Therefore you will find these traits present in a wide variety of populations and they are not all pale skinned. You will find many colors of hair among indigenous mainland Asian populations (who are far more numerous than Europeans). And where do they get their hair colors from? Of course they get them from their aboriginal forebears, who also carried such traits and who can still be seen in various parts of Asia with such traits. Hence, the idea that these traits of hair color originate in the adaptation of humans to the colder environments of Europe is pure nonsense.

However, it is true that the environments of Europe have played a role in terms of natural selection and genetic drift for a higher occurrence of various hair colors among the populations there. That is absolutely correct. But that does not mean that the genes for such traits or the traits themselves originated among populations who adapted to the cold environments of Europe.

Cosign,


 -  -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
All over Asia and the pacific you got populations of ancient aboriginal blacks with straight hair along with those who have curly hair. It isn't due to mixing.

TRUK ISland:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14396340@N02/4946152287/in/set-72157624851705322/lightbox/

Marshall Islands:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/350org/5069583044/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2474273648/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2498245955/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2461128614/in/photostream

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/2437587977/in/photostream/lightbox/

Ummm - your opinion?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Perfect example of what I mean are the Tamils. Now these are people from the very southern tip of India. You mean to tell me that the Persians who number far fewer than the total population of India, even in ancient times somehow came in and magically mixed with a continent 20 times its size in population and gave them all straight hair? Please. That is nonsense. Population statistics for India and Iran: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRN&dl=en&hl=en&q=iranian+population#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl &scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:IRN:IND&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en The mixed people of Indo Iranian stock are mostly lighter skinned people and represent a segment of Indian society. They keep to their own. You see them most often in Bollywood movies. But most of their features come from the aboriginal blacks of South Asia. Which makes more sense: Iranians went and screwed everyone on the whole continent of India and turned coal black people with curly hair to coal black people with straight hair or the gene for straight hair was already dominant among the aboriginal populations of India from day one? I think the latter as I said the Aboriginals of India are shown to be closely related to those of Australia and we all know those in Australia also have straighter hair. All of these are Tamils, except one. But even that one blends with the rest perfectly.




 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darpi/3237394405/in/photostream


 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88938785@N00/5485488060/in/photostream/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88938785@N00/5414576420/in/photostream

Even the ancient statues of the Indus valley show black folks with straight hair.


quote:

The Human Genome Organisation's (HUGO) Pan-Asian SNP Consortium carried out a study of almost 2,000 people across the continent.

Their findings support the hypothesis that Asia was populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

The researchers described their findings in the journal Science.

They found genetic similarities between populations throughout Asia and an increase in genetic diversity from northern to southern latitudes.

The team screened genetic samples from 73 Asian populations for more than 50,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

These are variations in pieces of the DNA code, which can be compared to find out how closely related two individuals are genetically.

This is the first study to give a clear answer to the question on the origin of East Asian populations
Shuhua Xu
Chinese Academy of Sciences

The study found that, as expected, individuals who were from the same region, or who shared a common language also had a great deal in common genetically.

But it also answered a question about the origin of Asia's population. It showed that the continent was likely populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

Previously, there has been some debate about whether Asia was populated in two waves - one to South East Asia, and a later one to central and north-east Asia, or whether only a single migration occurred.

Diversity explained

Edison Liu from the Genome Institute of Singapore was a leading member of the consortium.

He explained that the age of a population has a much bigger effect on genetic diversity than the population size.

"It seems likely from our data that they entered South East Asia first - making these populations older [and therefore more diverse]," he said.

"[It continued] later and probably more slowly to the north, with diversity being lost along the way in these 'younger' populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406506.stm
 -
Tamil girl


 -
Tamil guru of southern India

Persians? your word not mine.

Unfortunately because of my knowledge of the physical anthropology of the Indian peninsula including my knowledge of the fact that some very tropical people mixed with Iranic peoples for thousands of years Doug, I will not be able to accept your premise, that some Dravidians are straight haired due to their ancient black tropical ancestors.

Most pure Dravidic peoples DO NOT have straight hair, Doug, and that's about the 10th time I have said it on this forum.

Ancient Egyptians and black Mediterraneans did not have lank hair either. I'm sorry that you apparently feel the need to prove some black straight haired Mediterranean race existed that brought straight hair to North Africa 5000 years ago. [Roll Eyes]

The skeletal evidence shows that diverse populations have occupied India and southwest Asia at various periods since the palaeloithic including several black types osteologically and culturally comprable to populations occupying Arabia, Mesopotamia and northern Africa.

Please is right?! NONSENSE? STOP PROJECTING! [Wink]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
("aboriginal black" in the sense being used means any person with dark skin who first settled an area rather than necessarily of African descent)

Above are Marshal Islands people.
The prehistory of the islands of central and eastern Micronesia is not well known. Human occupation of these islands dates back at least 2000 years but the pottery found thus far gives little clue as to the ultimate ancestry of these populations. Polynesian languages are closely related to each other and belong to the Oceanic subgroup of the Austronesian language family (PAWLEY and ROSS 1993 ). The Oceanic subgrouping also includes the nuclear Micronesian languages of central-eastern Micronesia and the Austronesian languages spoken throughout Island Melanesia and the eastern half of coastal Papua New Guinea.Micronesia has had an independent source of HLA genes, probably from the Phillipines, as indicated by the high frequency of HLA-Bw35 which is absent from Melanesian and Polynesian groups.
HLA-B13, B18 and B27 are found throughout Melanesia. To whom are these diverse Melanesian populations most closely related outside this region (East or South Asians, or perhaps even Africans, whom they physically resemble)?he combined microsatellite datasets indicate that Melanesians are quite far removed from Africans, in spite of their superficial similarities in hair form and skin pigmentation. Outside the Pacific, East Asian populations are apparently the closest (but still very distant) relatives of Melanesians. Africans and Europeans are the most distant.
There is a weak “Austronesian” genetic signature in only a portion of Oceanic-speaking populations in Melanesia, and none at all in Papuan-speaking groups (contradicting the results of mtDNA, but in accord with the NRY results).
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


Most pure Dravidic peoples DO NOT have straight hair, Doug, and that's about the 10th time I have said it on this forum.

Ancient Egyptians and black Mediterraneans did not have lank hair either.

what is your evidence that excluding late dynasties a fair amount of ancient Egyptians did not have straight hair?
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

IMG]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2114/2461128614_c51d02cd7b_b.jpg[/IMG]

quote:

The Human Genome Organisation's (HUGO) Pan-Asian SNP Consortium carried out a study of almost 2,000 people across the continent.

Their findings support the hypothesis that Asia was populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

The researchers described their findings in the journal Science.

They found genetic similarities between populations throughout Asia and an increase in genetic diversity from northern to southern latitudes.

The team screened genetic samples from 73 Asian populations for more than 50,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

These are variations in pieces of the DNA code, which can be compared to find out how closely related two individuals are genetically.

This is the first study to give a clear answer to the question on the origin of East Asian populations
Shuhua Xu
Chinese Academy of Sciences

The study found that, as expected, individuals who were from the same region, or who shared a common language also had a great deal in common genetically.

But it also answered a question about the origin of Asia's population. It showed that the continent was likely populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

Previously, there has been some debate about whether Asia was populated in two waves - one to South East Asia, and a later one to central and north-east Asia, or whether only a single migration occurred.

Diversity explained

Edison Liu from the Genome Institute of Singapore was a leading member of the consortium.

He explained that the age of a population has a much bigger effect on genetic diversity than the population size.

"It seems likely from our data that they entered South East Asia first - making these populations older [and therefore more diverse]," he said.

"[It continued] later and probably more slowly to the north, with diversity being lost along the way in these 'younger' populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406506.stm
I could post many pictures from the same area of dark skinned Asians with kinky hair but what would that prove.

 -
The Kunlun (Kolonitae) ancient well described black kinky haired people of southeast Asia and southern China.

Southwest Asia bordering and well into China was inhabited as late as the 11th century by tons of indigenous black non-lank haired people. who are you to come around and say some of those people are not the ancestors of these people you posted.

Your proposition is ridiculous to someone familiar or knowledgeable with the history, archeology and PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY of the region - that isn't a racist.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


Most pure Dravidic peoples DO NOT have straight hair, Doug, and that's about the 10th time I have said it on this forum.

Ancient Egyptians and black Mediterraneans did not have lank hair either.

what is your evidence that excluding late dynasties a fair amount of ancient Egyptians did not have straight hair?
What is your evidence that ancient old and intermediate kingdom Egyptians who were apparently of GREAT LAKES AFRICAN ANCESTRY had straight hair, LYING _SS?lol.
Mathilda webite 101?

Think carefully now. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I wonder what Herodotus meant when he said the eastern Ethiopians with lank hair far to the south WERE IDENTICAL in culture to the great statured Ethiopians of the west in Africa?

Doug maybe you can answer that for me since you brought up the ancient Indus and their straight haired Ethiopians.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Perfect example of what I mean are the Tamils. Now these are people from the very southern tip of India. You mean to tell me that the Persians who number far fewer than the total population of India, even in ancient times somehow came in and magically mixed with a continent 20 times its size in population and gave them all straight hair? Please. That is nonsense. Population statistics for India and Iran: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRN&dl=en&hl=en&q=iranian+population#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl &scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:IRN:IND&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en The mixed people of Indo Iranian stock are mostly lighter skinned people and represent a segment of Indian society. They keep to their own. You see them most often in Bollywood movies. But most of their features come from the aboriginal blacks of South Asia. Which makes more sense: Iranians went and screwed everyone on the whole continent of India and turned coal black people with curly hair to coal black people with straight hair or the gene for straight hair was already dominant among the aboriginal populations of India from day one? I think the latter as I said the Aboriginals of India are shown to be closely related to those of Australia and we all know those in Australia also have straighter hair. All of these are Tamils, except one. But even that one blends with the rest perfectly.



Even the ancient statues of the Indus valley show black folks with straight hair.


quote:

The Human Genome Organisation's (HUGO) Pan-Asian SNP Consortium carried out a study of almost 2,000 people across the continent.

Their findings support the hypothesis that Asia was populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

The researchers described their findings in the journal Science.

They found genetic similarities between populations throughout Asia and an increase in genetic diversity from northern to southern latitudes.

The team screened genetic samples from 73 Asian populations for more than 50,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

These are variations in pieces of the DNA code, which can be compared to find out how closely related two individuals are genetically.

This is the first study to give a clear answer to the question on the origin of East Asian populations
Shuhua Xu
Chinese Academy of Sciences

The study found that, as expected, individuals who were from the same region, or who shared a common language also had a great deal in common genetically.

But it also answered a question about the origin of Asia's population. It showed that the continent was likely populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

Previously, there has been some debate about whether Asia was populated in two waves - one to South East Asia, and a later one to central and north-east Asia, or whether only a single migration occurred.

Diversity explained

Edison Liu from the Genome Institute of Singapore was a leading member of the consortium.

He explained that the age of a population has a much bigger effect on genetic diversity than the population size.

"It seems likely from our data that they entered South East Asia first - making these populations older [and therefore more diverse]," he said.

"[It continued] later and probably more slowly to the north, with diversity being lost along the way in these 'younger' populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406506.stm
Tamil guru of southern India

Persians? your word not mine.

Unfortunately because of my knowledge of the physical anthropology of the Indian peninsula including my knowledge of the fact that some very tropical people mixed with Iranic peoples for thousands of years Doug, I will not be able to accept your premise, that some Dravidians are straight haired due to their ancient black tropical ancestors.

Most pure Dravidic peoples DO NOT have straight hair, Doug, and that's about the 10th time I have said it on this forum.

Ancient Egyptians and black Mediterraneans did not have lank hair either. I'm sorry that you apparently feel the need to prove some black straight haired Mediterranean race existed that brought straight hair to North Africa 5000 years ago.

The skeletal evidence shows that diverse populations have occupied India and southwest Asia at various periods since the palaeloithic including several black types osteologically and culturally comprable to populations occupying Arabia, Mesopotamia and northern Africa.

Please is right?! NONSENSE? STOP PROJECTING!

Sorry Dana like I said you don't make any sense. The current population of Iran is only about 80 million. The Population of India is almost a billion. In ancient times the ratio was similar even if the numbers not as large as today. So what you are saying is that the Iranians tore through India and had sex with almost all of the native people there so much so that they gave them straight hair and made those with curly hair a minority. Sorry but that is physically impossible and doesn't make any sense at all.

There are aboriginal black people all over Asia with straight hair, along with those with curly hair. The development of straight hair took place among black populations in Africa to some extent but also outside of Africa. It has nothing to do with white skin. All traits come from the aboriginal African stock as the black and African human has been on the earth the longest with the highest diversity on the planet. And no most Tamils do not have curly hair.

So no, it doesn't matter how many kinky head blacks there are in Asia, which there are many. What matters is how you can show that straight hair is tied to non black populations through genetics or any other physical evidence you care to identify. Now the odd part in all this is how these white people were able to impart their straight hair in a sea of black faces but not impart light skin. That in itself should tell you something.

If you can provide any said knowledge of anthropology to show how straight hair in black Indians came from non black folks I would appreciate it.

Now even though I don't trust Wikipedia, the following does reflect the various opinions on the subject:

quote:

Genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. Classical anthropologists, such as Carleton S. Coon in his 1939 work The Races of Europe, argued that Ethiopia in Northeast Africa and India in South Asia represented the outermost peripheries of the Caucasoid race. In the 1960s, genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered the entirety of the Indian subcontinent to be a "race" genetically distinct from other populations. The geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, classified Indians as being genetically Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza found that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians. More recently, other geneticists, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, demonstrated that South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians. Nevertheless, Indians are classified by modern anthropologists as belonging to one of four different morphological or ethno-racial subtypes, although these generally overlap because of admixture: Caucasoid and Mongoloid (concentrated in the north), Australoid (concentrated in the south), and Negrito (located in the Andaman Islands). Dravidians are generally classified as members of the Proto-Australoid or Australoid race. In one study, southern Indian Dravidians clustered genetically with Tamils, a socially endogamous, predominantly Dravidian-speaking Australoid group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_peoples]


You know what Australoid means? It means belonging to the same aboriginal population as the Australian aborigine. Now are you going to say the Australian aborigine got their straight hair from white folks?

Please. That doesn't make any sense at all and no geneticist or anthropologist even argues such a thing.

While I don't buy into "racial" categorizations, it is true that these people are all part of the same aboriginal population that spread through Asia thousands of years ago:
quote:

The Australoid race is a broad racial classification. The concept originated with a typological method of racial classification. They were described as having dark skin with wavy hair, in the case of Veddoids from South Asia and Aboriginal Australians, or hair ranging from straight to kinky in the case of Papuan, Melanesian and Negrito groups.

According to this model of classification, Australoid peoples ranged throughout Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia, New Guinea, Melanesia, and India. In the mid-twentieth century an argument emerged that Australoids were linked to proto-Caucasoids.

In the out of Africa theory, the ancestors of the Australoids, the Proto-Australoids are thought to have been the first branch off from the Proto-Capoids to migrate from Africa about 60,000 BCE, migrating along the now submerged continental shelf of the northern shore of the Indian Ocean and reaching Australia about 50,000 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid

Therefore, most scientists see these folks as indigenous blacks with straight hair and proto-caucasoids meaning the ancestors of modern whites.

Now some Australian aborigines also had kinky hair, but does that mean those with straight hair got it from whites?

 -
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/image?app=tlf&irn=12010

 -
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/image?app=tlf&irn=13581

 -
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/image?app=tlf&irn=13456

 -
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/image?app=tlf&irn=14010


Naga Sadhu India note how they look no different:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/deeveeland/4465422706/in/photostream/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/deeveeland/6023401862/in/set-72157600262344617

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/deeveeland/4494150463/in/set-72157600262344617

Tamil Guru:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8715427@N04/4093269450/lightbox/
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Doug you keep using the word "black" here
You might call dark skinned people like Australian Aborignees "black", some have wavy straight hair,
however they are not of African ancestry.
Likewise as per Asia it is silly to say that any dark skinned Asian is of African descent
 
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

Nope. It is not.

"B2a1a originated in Central/Western Africa, while E1b1b1e is common in Eastern
Africa. Thus, it poses a question about the Sahara desert’s role in population movements
and exchanges."

And it's highest frequencies are in still central Africa. Observe.

"Haplogroup B2a1a (M109, M152, P32, P50) is the most commonly observed subclade of haplogroup B.

In Central Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 23% (7/31) of Ngumba males from southern Cameroon,[2] 18% (7/39) of Fali males from northern Cameroon,[6] 5% (1/21)[6] to 31% (4/13)[2] of Uldeme males from northern Cameroon, 10% (3/29) of Ewondo males from southern Cameroon,[6] 7% (1/15) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Chadic languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (1/18) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Adamawa languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (2/33) of Bakola males from southern Cameroon,[2] 4% (1/28) of Mandara males from northern Cameroon,[2] and 3% (1/31)[2] to 5% (1/20)[6] of Biaka males from Central African Republic.

In East Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Iraqw males from Tanzania,[2] 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Luo males from Kenya,[2] 8% (2/26) of Massai males from Kenya,[2] and 4.5% (4/88) of a sample of Ethiopians.[7]

In Southern Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 18% (5/28) of Sotho–Tswana males from South Africa,[2] 14% (4/29) of Zulu males from South Africa,[2] 13% (7/53) of an ethnically mixed sample of non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[7] 10% (5/49) of Shona males from Zimbabwe,[2] and 5% (4/80) of Xhosa males from South Africa.[2]

In North Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 12.5% (5/40) of Sudanese[7] and 2% (2/92) of Egyptians.[2]"

Also R-V88 has it's highest concentration in Central Africa.


The B hg is East African in Origin, and by the way South Africans, Pygmies etc. Were not involved in the slave Trade. The Study is pretty clear that the Siwi are linked Via the Nile Valley..for example the B is present in the Sudan and Egypt and East Africa.

Many believe that the Current Siwa genetics are not that of the orignal Berbers

So Im Sure you are going to give us this "Many" people in the quote you post.

"However we know that throughout history the oasis was called at by successive
human groups, like pilgrims travelling to Mecca, Mediterranean tradesmen, or Sahelian
slave merchants. Siwa may even have been repopulated at a certain moment
in time by Libyan Berber-speakers driven from their land by Arab conquerors.
Lastly, it experienced a period of decline and faced between the ninth and twelfth
century AD a drastic demographic decline (Fakhry 1973). Therefore, the current
gene pool of Siwa people could be related to recent migrations/founder effects
or it
could be the result of the various genetic exchanges which occurred in the Past."[/i]

According to that quote the slave trade is but one possible effect on the Siwi. Despite that the Siwi still are genetically East African and Nilotic. Funny how majority of the people from that study are Meds and Arabs yet the Siwi still remain African in Phenotype, Language, and Customs.

Influences from the Middle East and East Africa are marked in Siwa, while southwestern European influences are observed in the Maghreb[i]

Yeah? Where did you demonstrate that? Lol


The Siwi Language is preserved and Historically to this day the Siwi do not marry with the Arab Families or slaves.

The Siwians themselves claim to be unchanged. I would believe a Siwan over a Google Scholar anyday.


I never mentioned Sudanese. If you are not familiar with where R-V88 is concentrated in Africa then look it up. I'll give you a clue, it ain't East Africa.

Who mentioned Sudanese?? You/I said Chad dumbass, read my quote you posted above this.


Why? Because they have no genetic afinity with other Berbers. All they have is the language and culture, which they could have been imposed or absorbed by them. The Berbers are in part the result of a migration out of the Horn of Africa by E M35 and it's dervicitve E-m81 which are believed to have carried AFRO-ASIATIC languages into North Africa.
And What's this??


They have Genetic Affinity to Nile Valley and East African Populations, where Afroasiatic and Berber originated.

You keep running and avoiding this like the plague but it wont go away..

[i]The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.



So now you want to imply that the Siwa were orginally Middle Eastern looking??

Where did I say that??

I mean can you go with out resorting to Red Herring and Strawman Fallacy arguments..??

Actually they look East African and Nile Valley(Whom the Link to Genetically)..

Sudanese

 -

Ethiopian

 -

Egyptian

 -

Siwans

 -

 -

The Link and resemblence in undeniable..LOL.

My wife used to live in Egypt. She has been to Siwa before. She said of the pictures you posted, the people in siwa over all look like the first Sudani picture you posted. She said the kid on the far right in the sudani picture DOESN'T look like the normal Siwan, the rest of the kids do. She said also the last picture in this group looks representative of what you will see in Siwa. She said those light skinned girls just above the last picture in the series look more like the Bedu (Bedawins) you encounter on Sanai. She said the way they are dressed (they style of dress), their light skin, the hair style and the hena on the finger nails, looks far more like the people on Sanai than anything you are going to see in Siwa. She said those girls are not representative of a siwan. This is from her first hand account from visiting that place.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Well there's no doubt your wife is correct. Although I've never been to Egypt, I have seen a lot of images online of Siwa people and light-skinned Siwa are indeed an anomaly which makes sense since all the sources I've read on the Siwa people state they are largely endogamous with very few intermarrying with outsiders. Also in those same sources there has been an influx of Arab traders into the area so no doubt the light-skinned Siwa are the result of admixture between these Arab interlopers and native Siwa.

All of this again proves Dana's and the rest of our point that fair-skinned Berbers in general are the result of outside admixture and that fair skin is NOT indigenous and as Dana pointed out is historically quite recent.

quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass:

Doug you keep using the word "black" here
You might call dark skinned people like Australian Aborignees "black", some have wavy straight hair,
however they are not of African ancestry.
Likewise as per Asia it is silly to say that any dark skinned Asian is of African descent

Okay lying worm, but where in any of Doug's posts did he call Australian aborigines and other black Asians "African"??! Black is a reference to skin color only not ancestry! His point was to show that black peoples outside Africa do exist and have existed since humanity began to colonize outside of Africa. That does not mean these people are African no more so than fair skinned Asians and even Europeans and Doug never said otherwise, so why are you getting your panties in a bunch??
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehooptie:
.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:

Doug you keep using the word "black" here
You might call dark skinned people like Australian Aborignees "black", some have wavy straight hair,
however they are not of African ancestry.
Likewise as per Asia it is silly to say that any dark skinned Asian is of African descent

quote:
Originally posted by Djehooptie:
Black is a reference to skin color only not ancestry!

Your definition is that anybody with dark skin is black is not everybody's else definition. You believe the people below are both black people (and you assume Doug agrees)
Other people might agree but many do not agree. Saying "people with dark skin" leaves no such ambiguities.
If the 2 people below are blacks they have no strong genetic ties and neither do many people who have dark skin so it's saying very little biologically.
And bringing up "people with dark skin" does not help to resolve issues about hair. It confuses the issue more.

 -
 -
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Perfect example of what I mean are the Tamils. Now these are people from the very southern tip of India. You mean to tell me that the Persians who number far fewer than the total population of India, even in ancient times somehow came in and magically mixed with a continent 20 times its size in population and gave them all straight hair? Please. That is nonsense. Population statistics for India and Iran: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRN&dl=en&hl=en&q=iranian+population#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl &scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:IRN:IND&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en The mixed people of Indo Iranian stock are mostly lighter skinned people and represent a segment of Indian society. They keep to their own. You see them most often in Bollywood movies. But most of their features come from the aboriginal blacks of South Asia. Which makes more sense: Iranians went and screwed everyone on the whole continent of India and turned coal black people with curly hair to coal black people with straight hair or the gene for straight hair was already dominant among the aboriginal populations of India from day one? I think the latter as I said the Aboriginals of India are shown to be closely related to those of Australia and we all know those in Australia also have straighter hair. All of these are Tamils, except one. But even that one blends with the rest perfectly.



Even the ancient statues of the Indus valley show black folks with straight hair.


quote:

The Human Genome Organisation's (HUGO) Pan-Asian SNP Consortium carried out a study of almost 2,000 people across the continent.

Their findings support the hypothesis that Asia was populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

The researchers described their findings in the journal Science.

They found genetic similarities between populations throughout Asia and an increase in genetic diversity from northern to southern latitudes.

The team screened genetic samples from 73 Asian populations for more than 50,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs).

These are variations in pieces of the DNA code, which can be compared to find out how closely related two individuals are genetically.

This is the first study to give a clear answer to the question on the origin of East Asian populations
Shuhua Xu
Chinese Academy of Sciences

The study found that, as expected, individuals who were from the same region, or who shared a common language also had a great deal in common genetically.

But it also answered a question about the origin of Asia's population. It showed that the continent was likely populated primarily through a single migration event from the south.

Previously, there has been some debate about whether Asia was populated in two waves - one to South East Asia, and a later one to central and north-east Asia, or whether only a single migration occurred.

Diversity explained

Edison Liu from the Genome Institute of Singapore was a leading member of the consortium.

He explained that the age of a population has a much bigger effect on genetic diversity than the population size.

"It seems likely from our data that they entered South East Asia first - making these populations older [and therefore more diverse]," he said.

"[It continued] later and probably more slowly to the north, with diversity being lost along the way in these 'younger' populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406506.stm
Tamil guru of southern India

Persians? your word not mine.

Unfortunately because of my knowledge of the physical anthropology of the Indian peninsula including my knowledge of the fact that some very tropical people mixed with Iranic peoples for thousands of years Doug, I will not be able to accept your premise, that some Dravidians are straight haired due to their ancient black tropical ancestors.

Most pure Dravidic peoples DO NOT have straight hair, Doug, and that's about the 10th time I have said it on this forum.

Ancient Egyptians and black Mediterraneans did not have lank hair either. I'm sorry that you apparently feel the need to prove some black straight haired Mediterranean race existed that brought straight hair to North Africa 5000 years ago.

The skeletal evidence shows that diverse populations have occupied India and southwest Asia at various periods since the palaeloithic including several black types osteologically and culturally comprable to populations occupying Arabia, Mesopotamia and northern Africa.

Please is right?! NONSENSE? STOP PROJECTING!

Sorry Dana like I said you don't make any sense. The current population of Iran is only about 80 million. The Population of India is almost a billion. In ancient times the ratio was similar even if the numbers not as large as today. So what you are saying is that the Iranians tore through India and had sex with almost all of the native people there so much so that they gave them straight hair and made those with curly hair a minority. Sorry but that is physically impossible and doesn't make any sense at all.

There are aboriginal black people all over Asia with straight hair, along with those with curly hair. The development of straight hair took place among black populations in Africa to some extent but also outside of Africa. It has nothing to do with white skin. All traits come from the aboriginal African stock as the black and African human has been on the earth the longest with the highest diversity on the planet. And no most Tamils do not have curly hair.

So no, it doesn't matter how many kinky head blacks there are in Asia, which there are many. What matters is how you can show that straight hair is tied to non black populations through genetics or any other physical evidence you care to identify. Now the odd part in all this is how these white people were able to impart their straight hair in a sea of black faces but not impart light skin. That in itself should tell you something.

If you can provide any said knowledge of anthropology to show how straight hair in black Indians came from non black folks I would appreciate it.

Now even though I don't trust Wikipedia, the following does reflect the various opinions on the subject:

quote:

Genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. Classical anthropologists, such as Carleton S. Coon in his 1939 work The Races of Europe, argued that Ethiopia in Northeast Africa and India in South Asia represented the outermost peripheries of the Caucasoid race. In the 1960s, genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered the entirety of the Indian subcontinent to be a "race" genetically distinct from other populations. The geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, classified Indians as being genetically Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza found that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians. More recently, other geneticists, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, demonstrated that South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians. Nevertheless, Indians are classified by modern anthropologists as belonging to one of four different morphological or ethno-racial subtypes, although these generally overlap because of admixture: Caucasoid and Mongoloid (concentrated in the north), Australoid (concentrated in the south), and Negrito (located in the Andaman Islands). Dravidians are generally classified as members of the Proto-Australoid or Australoid race. In one study, southern Indian Dravidians clustered genetically with Tamils, a socially endogamous, predominantly Dravidian-speaking Australoid group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_peoples]


You know what Australoid means? It means belonging to the same aboriginal population as the Australian aborigine. Now are you going to say the Australian aborigine got their straight hair from white folks?

Please. That doesn't make any sense at all and no geneticist or anthropologist even argues such a thing.

While I don't buy into "racial" categorizations, it is true that these people are all part of the same aboriginal population that spread through Asia thousands of years ago:
quote:

The Australoid race is a broad racial classification. The concept originated with a typological method of racial classification. They were described as having dark skin with wavy hair, in the case of Veddoids from South Asia and Aboriginal Australians, or hair ranging from straight to kinky in the case of Papuan, Melanesian and Negrito groups.

According to this model of classification, Australoid peoples ranged throughout Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia, New Guinea, Melanesia, and India. In the mid-twentieth century an argument emerged that Australoids were linked to proto-Caucasoids.

In the out of Africa theory, the ancestors of the Australoids, the Proto-Australoids are thought to have been the first branch off from the Proto-Capoids to migrate from Africa about 60,000 BCE, migrating along the now submerged continental shelf of the northern shore of the Indian Ocean and reaching Australia about 50,000 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid

Therefore, most scientists see these folks as indigenous blacks with straight hair and proto-caucasoids meaning the ancestors of modern whites.

Now some Australian aborigines also had kinky hair, but does that mean those with straight hair got it from whites?



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http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/image?app=tlf&irn=13456

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http://www.nma.gov.au/collections-search/image?app=tlf&irn=14010


Naga Sadhu India note how they look no different:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/deeveeland/4465422706/in/photostream/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/deeveeland/6023401862/in/set-72157600262344617

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/deeveeland/4494150463/in/set-72157600262344617

Tamil Guru:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/8715427@N04/4093269450/lightbox/

Iranic or Armenoid in physical anthropolgoy referred to the physical type of southwest Asia that is white and prominent nosed - Doug it doesn't mean someone from Iran or "Persia". in case you didn't know it the latter have been mixing with black populations in Mesopotamia and India since the neolithic period where they were absorbed - a testament to how black the original Indi were.


Populations from geographical regions do tend to share genetic similarity Doug. [Frown] i don't know a single region where this is not the case.What I am saying is for you tto assume that the many Dravidian and Munda speaking people that now have straight hair have always had it is obviously your opinion since there are many people of pure Dravidian descent who do not have straight hair who have not absorbed Eurasiatics as much as the town dwelling people whose women were taken advantage of over many centuries. This doesn't mean there know straight haired Austric people in Europe previously.

Your showing of Asians with brownish hair is also not a good way of proving anything since East Asians and especially northern Chinese and Europeans have been also mixing with European-type Asians with red and blond hair for milleniums.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M:
[qb]Most importantly there is a growing group of Western scholars that in fact feel Dravidian speakers were originally Africans who've settled in Asia since the neolithic which is supported by certain OTHER genetic studies already posted on this forum more than once and because of the incontrovertible linguistic and cultural evidence.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the melanophobic lyinass:

Your definition is that anybody with dark skin is black is not everybody's else definition. You believe the people below are both black people (and you assume Doug agrees)
Other people might agree but many do not agree. Saying "people with dark skin" leaves no such ambiguities.
If the 2 people below are blacks they have no strong genetic ties and neither do many people who have dark skin so it's saying very little biologically.
And bringing up "people with dark skin" does not help to resolve issues about hair. It confuses the issue more.

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Your entire post is nothing more than a stupid-ass strawman! Yes 'black' is a reference to dark skin, or specifically very dark skin. Your pictures are of men who have complexions of medium hue. One is a Native American and the other is a man of African descent though possibly of mixed ancestry from elsewhere.

NON of this changes the fact that these men below ARE indeed black due to their obviously very dark color...

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Sorry lying worm, but the Indian men above are not called black by only myself or the guys on this forum or even Americans but even by their fellow Indians who call them kalu which doesn't mean "brown". [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:


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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

'black' is a reference to dark skin, or specifically very dark skin. Your pictures (above) are of men who have complexions of medium hue. One is a Native American and the other is a man of African descent though possibly of mixed ancestry from elsewhere.




I am shocked by your answer.
You are saying neither of the people above are black because black people are dark and they are medium complexioned.

Below, similarly medium complexioned people, who
according to your definition, are not black:

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M:
[qb]Most importantly there is a growing group of Western scholars that in fact feel Dravidian speakers were originally Africans who've settled in Asia since the neolithic which is supported by certain OTHER genetic studies already posted on this forum more than once and because of the incontrovertible linguistic and cultural evidence.

OK fine. So who first settled south India and what is their relationship to folks like the Aborigines of Australia and the pacific. What I posted in my thread was the clear relationship between the two groups. Now if you can find something that somehow shows how this is not the case then I am all for it. But I doubt you will. India was populated 60,000 years ago by the first wave of humans going into Asia via the Southern route. It has been populated continuously since that time. There have been various other smaller migrations from various places since then but the base population never left. Therefore, no later population came in and wiped out the aboriginal stock and replaced them, either with new black African folks or new white Eurasian folks. And how does the arrival of Africans since the Neolithic explain the fact that the majority of Indians, which is almost a billion folks, have straight hair? Either this trait came with the aborigines or it arrived later. My argument is that it came with the aborigines.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
I would tend to lean towards straight hair being indigenous.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass:

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I am shocked by your answer.
You are saying neither of the people above are black because black people are dark and they are medium complexioned.

And I am not shocked at all by your stupid ass strawman reply or that you lying by attributing things I never said. Of course the the man above of African descent is considered 'black' in the West due to social and political reasons the same as Halle Berry whose complexion is lighter than most 'brown' Mexicans.

quote:
Below, similarly medium complexioned people, who
according to your definition, are not black:

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Yet you don't consider the Indian men to be black?! Typical lyingass non-logic. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
 
@lioness

How much they pay you to write your trolly nonsense?

The Australian Aborigines are absolutely referred to as 'black', despite the fact that they're not African. Likewise, the British in India called the indigenous people 'black'.

You can be 'black' without being African.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M:
[qb]Most importantly there is a growing group of Western scholars that in fact feel Dravidian speakers were originally Africans who've settled in Asia since the neolithic which is supported by certain OTHER genetic studies already posted on this forum more than once and because of the incontrovertible linguistic and cultural evidence.

OK fine. So who first settled south India and what is their relationship to folks like the Aborigines of Australia and the pacific. What I posted in my thread was the clear relationship between the two groups. Now if you can find something that somehow shows how this is not the case then I am all for it. But I doubt you will. India was populated 60,000 years ago by the first wave of humans going into Asia via the Southern route. It has been populated continuously since that time. There have been various other smaller migrations from various places since then but the base population never left. Therefore, no later population came in and wiped out the aboriginal stock and replaced them, either with new black African folks or new white Eurasian folks. And how does the arrival of Africans since the Neolithic explain the fact that the majority of Indians, which is almost a billion folks, have straight hair? Either this trait came with the aborigines or it arrived later. My argument is that it came with the aborigines.
I wonder why the black people with straight hair just decided to stop in southern india and not go anywhere further - Persia, Elam, Arabia Melanesia, Indonesia Kunlun regions of south Asia.

I am not going to argue you about this stuff here any more Doug, sorry, because I still don't know where you are coming from. [Smile]
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
You can be 'black' without being African.

[Eek!] Heavens no! My god forbid!! [Eek!]
 
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
 
Australoids are not Black, nor are Indians.

The only people claiming these completely distinct non-Negroid peoples are
''black'' are self-hating negroes who want to cluster themselves with these other races.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

How much they pay you to write your trolly nonsense?

The Australian Aborigines are absolutely referred to as 'black', despite the fact that they're not African. Likewise, the British in India called the indigenous people 'black'.

You can be 'black' without being African.

Is this guy black?
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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Of course the the man above of African descent is considered 'black' in the West due to social and political reasons the same as Halle Berry whose complexion is lighter than most 'brown' Mexicans.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

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'black' is a reference to dark skin, or specifically very dark skin. Your pictures are of men who have complexions of medium hue.


look at this, first black means "dark skin"

then it means "of African descent"

Djehooti , you need a pair of these:
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__________________________________________________
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
LOOLLLLOLOLOL!!

God these clowns are ridiculous.

Which of these people are black?

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneaimgraphics/4667134721/sizes/z/in/photostream/


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http://www.flickr.com/photos/avatar1/503863854/in/pool-98868199@N00/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/rbrucemontgomery/4432869147/


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http://www.flickr.com/photos/gusthead/5943408305/sizes/l/in/set-72157627356671538/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/island_life/342282806/in/set-72157594361337065

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/rbrucemontgomery/3790649291/in/set-72157621950617932
 
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
 
Doug M, you are a pseudo-anthropologist.

You do realise skin pigmentation has never been used solely in racial classification?

The only people who equate dark skin to ''Black'' are a few self-hating negro internet trolls. They hate their broad traits and nappy hair, so they will try and cluster themselves with Indians etc.

Very sad.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
LOL!

The only people on earth who have a problem with the concept of the "black race" is the white Europeans who created the science of Anthropology precisely as an attempt to define the "black race" just so they could describe why the "white race" was superior. And because of this they fell all over themselves to find ways to sub categorizing and dividing up people in order to avoid associating black skin outside Africa with the populations of Africa, because that is a sign of from which humans originate and it isn't Europe. But because of their insane hate they had to find a way to deny the obvious, which is why these dumb ass clowns to this day say that "black folks aren't black" and actually believe they are making sense and don't look stupid in the process.

Case in Point on the obsession of white folks with black skin: "Anthropology Of the Negro" by Julian Herman from 1942

quote:

It was a sizable problem to determine what people should be included under the term "Negro." In America it is the custom even in scientific literature to apply this name equally to people of decided African origin and to those who have little or no per- ceptible amount of Negro blood. Any pigmented race, whether they be Moors, Ethiopians, Arabs, or East Indians, may be grouped indiscriminately in statistics pertaining to Negroes. Some attempts have been made in the literature to distinguish between "mulattoes" and "blacks," but there is no agreement as to what these words mean. In Africa Negroes are a more sharply identified group, although anthropologists speak of "true Negroes" as contrasted to certain other people, like the Bantus, who are considered as intermixtures. In this book the American usage is followed in review of the American literature, and for other literature only that is used pertaining to the Negroid people of the east and west coasts of Africa and of central and southern Africa as well as the intermixtures called "colored" by the English. It is confessed that this word "race" is used very loosely and not with the exactness of the anthropologist, who prefers the word "stocks" or "strains" in referring to what herein are termed "Negro" and "white" races.

http://archive.org/details/biologyofnegro00lewi

The point being that it is precisely the European "science" of anthropology that created this nonsensical concept of "racial" classification and with it all the absurd contradictions concerning skin color and ethnicity.
 


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