almohad sultan abu hafs umar al mortada , a portrait done in his lifetime ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
almohad army ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
alfonso X book ( santa maria ) : http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moors4.jpg?w=500[/IMG]
the word mouros can be seen above
Santiago Matamoros ("Saint James the Moor-slayer"). St. James is on horseback and a beheaded Moor lies on the ground, by the 15th-century Flemish-Spanish painter Juan de Flandes.
^^^ note the early date of these illustrations and painting. Also notice that in ship panels above a variety of folk in the boat and in the armies in pictures above.
The Christian conflict with the Moors was in Spain. Here is Coat of arms of Alcanadre. La Rioja, Spain. Depicting slayed heads of the Moors:
Relative to many dark skinned Europeans the above people on the shield are dark skinned.
So why is it that particulary in later depictions of Moors in European herladry and paintings do we see Moors depicted, not as a varied people but as dark skinned Africans, often pitch black?
In my opinion there the reason for this is that as we can see, the Christians were hell bent on expelling the Muslims or converting them. They changed the depiction of Moors as varied including some dark skinned Africans but many non black North African Arab looking types, they changed it to exclusivly very dark skinned Africans, often pitch black. If you look at the early art compared to the later art you can see this as I have shown some. I believe the reason is that some Southern Europeans have a similar dark complexion to some of the Arab types they had been calling "Moors" ( in addition to darker Africans). They did not want Europeans who were somewhat dark to get any ideas that Islam might be something they might want to get into. Some of the people they had been calling Moors at the time Moors occupied the Iberian peninsula may have included all sorts of mixed people, including people of Roman and Phoenician ancestry, some of whom had mixed with indigenous Africans.
So they launched the propaganda campaign that Islam is something that is practiced only by very dark skinned people, people so dark they couldn't possibly be European, or mixes I have have descibed. At this point any very dark skinned African, regardless of what region of Africa they were from was described as a "Moor" often with hoop earrings included as are seen in Egyptian paintings of Kushites.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Another example, paintings painted in the 17th century of Moors being slain by St. James
A later 18th century painting in an attempt to separate the appearance of Muslims from looking anything like a European:
Giovanni Battista Tiepolo, St James the Greater Conquering the Moors, 1749. Oil on canvas, Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest.
Keep in mind people called "Berbers" didn't call themselves "Berbers" and people called "Moors" didn't call themsselves "Moors". So these terms can get changed at whim as we see historically and they are loosly defined. Notice the evolving racism
_______________________________________________
Note on St. James:
James, son of Zebedee was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. He died in 44 AD.ter tradition states that he miraculously reappeared to fight for the Christian army during the battle of Clavijo (844 AD) and was henceforth called Matamoros (Moor-slayer). Santiago y cierra España ("St James and strike for Spain") has been the traditional battle cry of Spanish armies.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
You know it's awfully strange Lioness how nobody has come on this thread and tried to refute your pictures... HMMMMM.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
All of this does not change the fact that the word Moor means black, and was applied by Southern Europeans to people darker than themselves. This idea that Moor=Berber is unfounder as the people who coined the Term Moor applied it based on appearance not Language.
In the 10th Century the Spanish Christians converted enmasse to Islam and comprised majority of the population of Andalus. The White Slave Market was probably the biggest in An-dalusia esp. among the Elite...
^^^^ A lot of Mixed and Muwalladun Iberians with a few pure blooded Berbers and Moors.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Melchior
quote:You know it's awfully strange Lioness how nobody has come on this thread and tried to refute your pictures... HMMMMM.
Whats to refute?? that Moors mostly Black,and Eastern Islamic folks(mostly lite skinned) of all sorts including Turks were at war with mostly White and Christian Europeans?(Christian Nubians and Ethiopians) being the exception??
And in this scene you have Moors,eastern Muslims and Christians forming an alliance and fighting on the same side.
Look at this^ one this castle has Jewish defenders note the star of David.
I donno I see nothing extrodinary outside of what's being discussed here on a daily basis.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness
quote:So they launched the propaganda campaign that Islam is something that is practiced only by very dark skinned people, people so dark they couldn't possibly be European, or mixes I have have descibed. At this point any very dark skinned African, regardless of what region of Africa they were from was described as a "Moor" often with hoop earrings included as are seen in Egyptian paintings of Kushites.
I have said this over and over again till my finger tips are bleeding all over the key board all Blacks were Moors but all Moors were not Blacks..the earliest of the descriptions of the Moors in the age prior to Islam is that of a Black people..what's soo hard in accepting that at face value.
Plus your example of Moors being Muslims being Black in order to frighten Whites who were darker than average is nullified by the Legendary St Maurice. and St Benedict the Moor both painted as blacks. Statue of Saint Benedict the Moor in the Franciscan church in Santiago de Compostela, Spain
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ Exactly Brada, me and Doug have wrote time and time again that majority of the Population of Andalucia was NON BLACK. Majority of the converts were Muwalladun, You had Turks, Arabs, Jews, Syrians etc plus the Slave Market was majority Native/white.
This does not change the origin/etymology of the word moor. Its there for those interested in unbiased facts.
What gets me is the same people who post Fair Skinned Kybalie and rave about Blond Guanchies don't adress that at one time some North African people were called "Black/Dark Skinned(Mauros)" by Swathy black Haired Europeans.
In majority of those pics you see Whites possibly Muwalladun, a sizeable number of Mixed race folks, and a few pure Moors.
Im Sure this...
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: [QB]
Would call this..
Black/Mauros..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Don't you get it, its not about unbiased research and history. Its about poking jabs at "Afrocentrics" and fighting toothe and nail to European/Eurasianize African people and culture.
You would never catch Lioness doing this research into the African/Black Presence in Crete, Greece and Eturuscans. She will find some Tanned Southern European.
Come on now Brada, seriously.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Lioness I have said this over and over again till by finger tips are bleeding all over the key board all Blacks were Moors but all Moors were not Blacks..the earliest of the descriptions of the Moors in the age prior to Islam is that of a Black people..what's soo hard in accepting that at face value.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
The word "Moor" In Latin, the word maurus (plural mauri) means coming from Mauretania, a Roman province on the northwestern fringe of Africa. In antiquity, Mauretania was originally an independent kingdom on the Mediterranean coast of north Africa (named after the Mauri tribe, after whom the Moors were named), corresponding to western Algeria, northern Morocco and the Spanish territories of North Africa. Some of its earliest recorded history relates to Phoenician and Carthaginian settlements such as Lixus, Volubilis, Mogador and Chellah.The kingdom of Mauretania was not situated on the Atlantic coast south of Western Sahara, where modern Mauritania lies. The Mauri (from which derives the English term "Moors") were an ancient Berber people inhabiting the territory of modern Algeria and Morocco. Much of that territory was annexed to the Roman empire in 44 AD, as the province of Mauretania (later divided into Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana). Subgroups of Mauri continued to inhabit the desert regions south of the Roman border. A subgroup of the Mauri were known as the Musulamii.The Mauri people were named for the Greek word mavros, black.
The term Mauri, or variations, was later used by European traders and explorers of the 16th to 18th centuries to designate ethnic Berber and Arab groups speaking the Hassaniya Arabic dialect.[citation needed] Today such groups inhabit Mauritania and parts of Algeria, western Sahara, Morocco, Niger and Mali. Speakers of European languages have historically designated a number of associated ethnic groups as "Moors". In modern Iberia, the term is applied to people of Moroccan ethnicity living in Europe. "Moor" is sometimes colloquially applied to any person from North Africa. Some people to whom it is applied consider the term pejorative and racist. __________________________________________________
The word "Moor" may have been derived from the Mauri people and they are described as being dark skinned. The people, the ones who conquered Spain who were named as "Moors" include Phoenicians had settled in the region before the time of Christ and they were originally from Canaan. Caanan was comprised of parts of modern-day Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and the western parts of Jordan. The name Numidia was first applied by Polybius and other historians during the third century BC to indicate the territory west of Carthage. By 44 AD the region was annexed by Rome.
The name "Moor" is not something that these people applied to themselves. Starting much later in 711 AD people who were called "Moors" by the Europeans were the ones who conquered the Iberian peninsula and ruled for 800 years. These people primarily of Phoenician and Roman ancestry later to also mix with Arabs and Berbers were who the Europeans called Moors in the period that they had conquered Iberia.
You may define "Moors" as people purely indigenous to Africa that may have been living in the region prior to these early BCE immigrants but when we speak of the "Moors" who conquered the Iberian penisnula it would not be them, it would be the much larger group of mixed group of people from all these backgounds I have described. The had suntans and some had mixed to an extent with indigenous Africans. They may not have all been very dark but those who were not were often still dark enough to be considered "dark skinned" relative to some paler Europeans. The Europeans at the time of the conquests were referring to all of the 8th century people living North Africa, people with Arab, Berber, Phoenician and Roman ancestry, some Vandals included and some mixtures with indigenous Africans. You can say that real Moors are only indigenous Africans. However this is not how the Europeans were using the term at the time to describe the people that conquered Spain.
This variety of Muslims settled in North Africa are who the Europeans were calling the Moors at the time, the conquerors of Iberia, The Moors of Spain.
Here is the Coat of arms of Alcanadre. La Rioja, Spain. Depicting slayed heads of the Moors:
^^^^ understand this particular crest, it's from Spain not Northern Europe which was not conquered by the Moors. These are people they were calling Moors at the time when they were at war with them. In this earlier period people who looked like very dark skinned Africans were shown by the Europeans as being present but fewer in a larger group of "non-black" "Arab" or semi mulatto looking types, such as in this Spanish Coat of Arms of the mixed ancestry I have been describing. Also notice that these heads are chopped off with blood dripping from them, not something that the people who the heads had been attached to would see as positive. Later we find Moors depicted differently, not as threats who need their head chopped off.
If you want to define "Moor" as people strictly indigenous African fine but as I have shown in the earlier art the Europeans IN THE PERIOD OF CONFLICT WITH THE MOORS defined Moors as people of various ancestry much of it not African but non-Africans who had settled in Africa hundreds of years earlier. These are the Moors of "Moorish" Spain, some indigenous Africans but most not.
After the Europeans had expelled the Moors from the Iberian peninsula they changed the meaning of "Moor" to mean "very dark skinned African from any place in Africa"
These are the mascot types you see in the other heraldry:
This is a new concept. No longer is it the Muslims who conquered Southern Europe a threat who had to have their heads chopped off. It's cute pitch black people looking like Ethiopians or Sudanese with king's crowns. This is the Chistianized assimilated version of the Moor, not the Muslim invaders of the past who had taken over.
You also have people like St. Benedict the Moor:
He was born to Christopher and Diana Manasseri, Africans who were taken to San Fratello (also known as San Fradello or San Philadelphio), a small town near Messina, Sicily, as slaves and later were converted to Christianity. Again the converted Moor, the Moor without the threat of Islamic power. Benedict was also called from his origin Æthiops or Niger, he was probably not even from North Africa.
What is going on here is basically an attempt by the Christian Europeans to alter the history as to reduce the appearance of Islam, to only be comprised of dark skinned black Africans and dark skinned black Africans who were "Moor" by name but Chistinaized Moors, de-fanged Muslims and not even really from North Africa.
Africa and Africans have had an influence on European thought and culture far disproportionate to the size of the small black population (which, for example, approached 150,000 in the Iberian peninsula in the 16th century, and by the 18th amounted to just several thousand in France, a few thousand in the Netherlands, and several hundred scattered through Germany, Scandinavia, and Russia; only in the 20th century would the combined numbers reach the hundreds of thousands).
This small population of dark skinned Africans in medieval Europe were not mainly of the actual people who had conquered Spain and Portugal earlier. These were a population too small to be a threat many were of slave background who they then decided that they would be the Moors. Most of type of people who you see in the earlier artwork at the time of actual conflict with the people they were then calling Moors were erased from memory.
The new Moors were these mascot type of Moors, quaint and docile, servile type convert Moors, novelty black people from darkest Africa. It's a sickening type of thing, yet some of us can't deal with it. We'd rather believe that there were pitch black African kings ruling medieval Europe or some Saints directing Catholic programs. These type of black Africans, the ones you see on these Coats of Arms w are the types who be sold as chattel. And they projected the name "Moor" onto these people, our ancestors as a manipulation. This is what you see in the later paintings, docile servants and converts.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness all the above is just to say Moors were primarily a Black folk starting from the Greek era as you pointed out as
quote:mavros, black.
but more in use in the Roman times along with native terms such as Afer,and Niger they also inter change with Ethiops as a matter of fact Ethiops was used in much the same way..another way of saying Black. The later Moors on family crest like I said have to be evaluated individually especially family crest with the name Moor attached to them for those are founding members sometimes they are paired with Black Men/White Women or White Men/Black Women these were certainly not objects of derision for it was they who commissioned such crest so they would be remembered for all times A Christian who looked like he would kicked your ass maybe his wife was an unpleasant bitch..no object of pity or derision here..your problem is that there could have been black as licorice men as high lords, Bishop,Mayor or even a king or two in the middle ages, having any influence over a mostly White European populous.
Moorish knight (possibly a Christian convert) supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. Sir Morien is described as follows: "He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven." Initially in the adventure Morien is simply called "the Moor." He first challenges, then battles, and finally wins the unqualified respect and admiration of Sir Lancelot. In addition, Morien is extremely forthright and articulate. Sir Gawain, whose life was saved on the battlefield by Sir Morien, is stated to have "harkened, and smiled at the black knight's speech." It is noted that Morien was as "black as pitch; that was the fashion of his land--Moors are black as burnt brands." And again: "His teeth were white as chalk, otherwise was he altogether black." "Morien, who was black of face and limb," was a great warrior, and it is said that: "His blows were so mighty; did a spear fly towards him, to harm him, it troubled him no whit, but he smote it in twain as if it were a reed; naught might endure before him." Ultimately, and ironically, Sir Morien came to personify all of the finest virtues of the knights of the European Middle Ages. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Brada I don't know of you realize this Sir Lancelot was not a real person. This thread is about medieval history not literature.
Morien or Moriaen is a 13th-century Arthurian romance written in Middle Dutch language . In a situation similar to Gahmuret's begetting of Feirefiz in Wolfram's Parzival, Aglovale visits "Moorish lands" where he meets a beautiful black Christian princess and conceives a child with her.
As I have been saying even here in the literature the person described as "Moor" is not a Muslim, not a person that the Crusdaders went to war with, probably not even a North African
Above you have an illustration showing a blindfolded Moor. This is a prisoner of the Crusaders, as with the crest of The Paganinis, a Milano family of the 13th century
The main symbol in the coat of arms in Corsica is U Moru, Corsican for "The Moor", originally a female Moor blindfolded and wearing a necklace made of beads. No use is attested prior to 1736, when it was used by both sides during the struggle for independence.
In 1760, General Pasquale Paoli ordered the necklace to be removed from the head and the blindfold raised. His reason, reported by his biographers, was "Les Corses veulent y voir clair. La liberté doit marcher au flambeau de la philosophie. Ne dirait-on pas que nous craignons la lumière ?" (roughly: "The Corsicans want to see clearly. Freedom must walk by the torch of philosophy. Won't they say that we fear the light?") Later the blindfold was changed to a headband. The current Corsican flag is the Bandera testa Mora ("Flag with head of Maure"), is male rather than female, and has a regular knot at the back of the head. Before Corsica developed its crowded coastal resorts, most of the action came from murderous feuds and vendettas. The symbol dates back to the 13th century, when the Aragonese were given rights over Corsica by the Pope after their victory over the Saracens. They portrayed their acquisition by the Moor's Head. It was however, forgotten in Corsica during the subsequent Genoese occupation when the Virgin Mary (the patron Saint of Corsica) was used to symbolise Corsica. In the 18th century the German adventurer, Theodor Von Neuhof (who became king of Corsica for 6 months in 1736) chose the forgotten Moor's Head as the National flag. island's colorful history includes a comic-opera interlude in 1736 when a German baron, Theodor von Neuhof, done up in a scarlet caftan and a scimitar, installed himself as king. Playing on historic resentments, he designed a flag depicting a blindfolded Moor in chains. Two decades later, Pascal Paoli, Corsica's George Washington, approved the removal of the Moor's chains and the conversion of his blindfold into a jaunty headband. .
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Didn't say he was a real person but the attitude of one who is a Moor of deep black complexion and fellow brother in Christ..your argument was that Moors of deep blk complexion was painted thus because they represented either one of two extremes docile blks or defeated enemies both of which are correct but also simplistic..I said one would have to look at each crest individually to see if it was a defeated enemy a docile gofer(a person who fetches things for his/her master or mistress such as a page),or court jester,or a Knight of the ruling class,Lord Mayor, a Bishop or Cardinal,a Saint or Trader of some sorta king..all were present.
The Testa di Moru, the black Moor's head on a white background forms the national flag of Corsica. The Moor's head with a white bandeau was adopted by Pasquale Paoli in 1762 as the official emblem of independent Corsica. It was inherited from the kings of Aragon, who were invested with Corsica by the Pope in the Middle Ages. Four Moors heads became the arms of Sardinia after the Aragonese conquest and, with a cross of St George separating them, they remain the national flag of the neighbouring island. The Aragonese never conquered Corsica, but they claimed it as their own. It first appeared in Corsica in 1573 in an atlas showing the lands of Philip II.
The bandeau originally blindfolded the eyes of the Moor, while it is now raised to his forehead. There are those who see its removal as a symbol of freedom from slavery. There are others, who claim that it dates from the time of the Saracen invasions and the Corsicans' habit of decapitating the moors. King Theodore, who also made use of this symbol in 1736, strangely had the bandeau covering the eye.
The point that you are missing that even the though decapitated the four Moors divided by a cross were Kings in Europe defeated at an earlier time.
Btw^he is not the legendary Sir Morien but a Christian Knight who was fighting on the side of the Normans..and check out his crown he seemed to be of very high order as well.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
The point that you are missing that even the though decapitated the four Moors divided by a cross were Kings in Europe defeated at an earlier time.
Obviously the kings of Spain at the time, Al Aldalus, Caliphs rather, did not have European crowns and hoop earrings:
Tariq ibn Ziyad led the Islamic conquest of Visigothic Hispania in 711 A.D.
Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur (c. 1160 – January 23, 1199), also known as Moulay Yacoub, was the third Almohad Amir
When the Christians in Iberian Peninsula heard of Al-Mansur's absence to Africa, they revolted, capturing many of the Moorish cities, including Silves, Vera, and Beja. When Al-Mansur heard this news, he returned to the Iberian Peninsula, and defeated the Christians again. This time, many were taken in chained groups of fifty each, and later sold in Africa as slaves. While Al-Mansur was away in Africa, the Christians mounted the largest army of that time period of over 300,000 men to defeat Al- Mansur. Immediately upon hearing this, Mansur returned to Iberia and defeated Alfonso's army, killing 150,000, taking money, valuables and other goods beyond calculation.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Yes, the depiction of Moors heads goes back to the actual reconquista in Spain during which they were intended as a representation of decapitated Moors. Moors meaning black folks. In Spain there were generally 3 populations: Muladies or Muwallads, Moors, Christianos and Jews. These are not intended to be ethnographic but rather broad general categories based on social, religious and political lines.
In terms of ethnic composition, things were much more complex. There was a mixture of populations in Spain during the Islamic period: Native Iberians, the majority; Mozarabs, native Iberians and Christian Refugees from North Africa; Berber tribes from North West Africa(majority of the Invading Islamic armies); Arabs from Arabia;Syrians;Egyptians;Slavic peoples(origin of the word Slave);
The word moor primarily refers to the Berber component of the invading Islamic armies and only later was applied generally to the entire Muslim community in Spain, whether Berber, Arab, Iberian or Slavic. And even later it became a popular term for black in Europe, regardless of religion.
quote: The Muwallads were also referred to as Muslima (Islamized), and elches (ilj,pl ulus), as a reference to the society from which they sprang, and also came to be referred to as Aljamiados, as a reference to their non Arabic-tongue, the term having particular reference to Persian.
Through the cultural Arabization of muladies and their increasing inter-marriage with some Berbers and Arabs present in Iberia, the distinctions between the different Muslim groups became increasingly blurred in the 11th and 12th centuries. The populations mixed with such rapidity that it was soon impossible to distinguish ethnically the elements of foreign origin from the natives. Therefore, they merged into a more homogeneous group of Andalusi Arabs generally also called Moors. Poems in Aljamiado.
The Muwallads primarily spoke Andalusian Arabic, along with a wide variety of Iberian Romance languages. Andalusian Arabic was a mixture of Iberian languages and Classical Arabic, though derived especially from Latin. This local dialect of Arabic was also spoken by the Berbers and Arabs from the 9th century onwards.
In the process of acculturation, Muwallads may well have adopted an agnatic model of descent, but without abandoning the bilaterality of late Roman kinship. According to Abu Jafar ibn Harun of Trujillo vast but silent majority of Muladi Muslims thrived especially in the Extremadura region of Spain.[6]
Among the Muwalladun were the free-born, enfranchised and slaves. A significant part of the Muwalladun was formed by freed slaves. These were the Saqaliba, or Slavs who became a very important social group in Al-Andalus during the 10th and 11th centuries. Upon adopting the ethnic name of their patrons, the emancipated slaves gradually forgot all about their own ethnic origin. The Slavic Muslim slaves, saqaliba led by Muyahid ibn Yusuf ibn Ali their leader, who could take profit from the progressive crumbling of the Umayyad Caliphate's superstructure to gain control over the province of Denia. The Saqaliba managed to free themselves and run the Taifa which extended its reach as far as the islands of Majorca and its capitol Medina Mayurqa.
The intermarriage of foreign Muslims with native Christians made many Muwallads mindless of their Iberian origin. As a result, their descendants and many descendants of Christian converts forgot the descent of their ancestors and assumed forged Arab genealogies. However, there were a few who were proud of their Roman and Visigothic origins. These included the Banu Angelino and Banu Sabarico of Seville, Banu Qasi of Aragon, Banu l' Longo and Banu Qabturno. Several Muwallad nobles also used the name Al-Quti (The Goth), and some may have been actual descendants from the family of the Visigothic King of Hispania, Wittiza.
Only a small portion of the Islamic population in Spain was actually from outside of Spain. Most were native Iberians and or mixed. And of the Islamic invading force, the Berbers most certainly made up the largest component initially, however, they were under Arab chiefs from Syria. Dissention and resentment among the ranks caused many revolts by Berber populations in Spain and these revolts let to many Berber groups being expelled. They eventually raised their own native Berber led dynasties in Africa which went on to conquer much of Spain. But those dynasties did not last that long. Nevertheless, it is the Berber, Northern and Western African population among the Muslims from which the term Moor arises, both because of the history of that area in North West Africa but also because of the reference to skin color. Not only that, but many of the Arabs and other Muslims were also darker skinned as well. So the idea that these invading armies were "white" is pure absolute nonsense. The whites came later as a result of the mixed populations that arose in Spain and the conversion of Native Iberians to Islam. Those are the people you see depicted in many works from Muslim Iberia.
There are variations of this which is seen on various crests and coats of arms across Europe, but the origin is with the image of a decapitated Muslim. The head wrap is based on the actual ancient historical African practice of wearing a filet, which is a type of crown. This can be seen in ancient Egypt. The blindfold again symbolizes a defeated captive who is blindfolded (and beheaded). This kind of imagery also originates in Egypt with the iconography of defeated enemies from various regions seen in ancient Egyptian art. Some would say the use of non black moor heads is simply an attempt at political correctness in later Spain.
quote:Peter I receiving a shield emblazoned with the Cross of Saint George. According to legend, George appeared on the field of battle at Alcoraz. The heads of four decapitated Moors were also found on the battlefield and, when added to George's familiar emblem, the Cross of Alcoraz was created, which would later form the basis for the Sardinian coat-of-arms.
the images above are actual representations of Moors from the time of the Almoravids and Almohads. The Almoravids and Almohads did not leave any art work showing themselves in human form. The battle of Alcoraz took place during the time of the Almoravids.
And we must remember that a lot of the ethnic strife within Spain was within the Muslims not simply between Christians and Muslims. In fact the average joe simply supported whoever was going to bring peace and quiet. But from day one the mistreatment of the Berbers by Arab or Syrian chiefs caused no end to strife. There were constant struggles between clans and Muslim chiefs for control. There were multiple notable uprisings of Berbers leading to expulsions. One of the notable examples of this is the wars of the Zirids, a Sanhaja affiliated group, against the Umayyad Caliphs in Spain. This led to the sack of Medina Azahara and the Sack Of Cordoba where up to 50% of the population was ordered to be killed. There are accounts of the Zirids written by Muslim historians of the time that tell the tale of the treachery and chaos that existed in the time. One of them is called "the Tibyan". There are others which I have posted as well but i don't feel like digging them up again.
The key to all of this is that it was the African Armies from North and West Africa that were the key to Islamic Spains power and once they began to revolt against Arab imperialism, all things went down hill fast. Some Muslims called on Christians for support and began to use Christian mercenaries in their armies. You can see this in the illustrations from earlier in the thread from the Cantiagas. This ultimately lead to the Christians taking over massive chunks of Muslim lands and absorbing new Islamic allies. One notable example is in Zaragosa where the Muslim Emir defected with his armies to the Christians upon the arrival of the Almoravids. When you see a medieval Spanish crest or coat of Arms with a crescent on it, most likely it is due to this sort of situation. (or due to the defeat of a Muslim town or garrison). Many people in Spain were purely mercenaries and in it for the money. A notable example of this is El Cid. And the arrival of the Almoravids and Alhmohads was the last attempt to reclaim the glory of the Islamic kingdom under African armies. But this time, instead of playing second fiddle to Syrians, Arabs, converted Slaves (Slavs), Goths and mulattoes, they decided to take over for themselves. This was not a long lasting affair and things quickly went South due to the resurgent Christians and the treachery among the Muslims that aided the Christians in many famous battles. And that is what killed Islamic Spain.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Repost,
Yes, I agree with that, we deal with two types of contextsNoise is religious and the other is ethnic.
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.
Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology
-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient -Mediterranean and the Near East -Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture -Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance
"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."
North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius"
Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
You know it's awfully strange guys how the Malcontent has not come back to this thread since you finally rebutted Lyinass's pictures... HMMMMM. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I have said this over and over again till my finger tips are bleeding all over the key board all Blacks were Moors but all Moors were not Blacks..the earliest of the descriptions of the Moors in the age prior to Islam is that of a Black people..what's soo hard in accepting that at face value.
Plus your example of Moors being Muslims being Black in order to frighten Whites who were darker than average is nullified by the Legendary St Maurice. and St Benedict the Moor both painted as blacks. Statue of Saint Benedict the Moor in the Franciscan church in Santiago de Compostela, Spain
Brada, I feel ya bro! I feel like my fingers would just fall off if it were not for the copy and paste controls.
St. Maurice Maurice was an officer of the Theban Legion of Emperor Maximian Herculius' army, which was composed of Christians from Upper Egypt. He and his fellow legionnaires refused to sacrifice to the gods as ordered by the Emperor to insure victory over rebelling Bagaudae. When they refused to obey repeated orders to do so and withdrew from the army encamped at Octodurum (Martigny) near Lake Geneva to Agaunum (St. Maurice-en-Valais), Maximian had the entire Legion of over six thousand men put to death. To the end they were encouraged in their constancy by Maurice and two fellow officers, Exuperius and Candidus. Also executed was Victor (October 10th), who refused to accept any of the belongings of the dead soldiers. In a follow-up action, other Christians put to death were Ursus and another Victor at Solothurin (September 30th); Alexander at Bergamo; Octavius, Innocent, Adventor, and Solutar at Turin; and Gereon (October 10th) at Cologne. Their story was told by St. Eucherius, who became Bishop of Lyons about 434, but scholars doubt that an entire Legion was massacred; but there is no doubt that Maurice and some of his comrades did suffer martyrdom at Agaunum. Feast day - September 22nd.
Both of the objects highlighted here feature Alessandro de' Medici (1511-37), the first Duke of Florence. It is thought that Alessandro's mother was a Moorish slave.
The Medici, an Italian family of merchants, bankers, rulers, patrons and collectors, dominated the political and cultural life of Florence from the 15th century to the mid 18th century. They were expelled from Florence in 1494-1512 and 1527-30. In 1530, after a long and bitter siege, the army of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V conquered the city and backed the installment of Alessandro de' Medici as the first Duke of Florence. Alessandro's reign ended in 1537, when he was assassinated by his cousin and rival Lorenzino de' Medici. As he had no children with his wife (Margaret of Austria, illegitimate daughter of the emperor Charles V), and his illegitimate son Giulio was only four years old, Alessandro was succeeded by a member of another branch of the Medici family, Cosimo I.
Officially, Alessandro was the illegitimate son of Lorenzo de' Medici, Duke of Urbino (1492-1519), but it was rumoured that Lorenzo's cousin Giulio (later Pope Clement VII), had fathered him. Alessandro's mother, Simonetta, was allegedly a Moorish slave who had worked in the household of Lorenzo and his parents during their exile in Rome.
Although Alessandro's paternity was disputed, contemporaries acknowledged his maternal ancestry, even nicknaming him 'Il Moro', the Moor. This term was (and is still) used in Italy to describe Africans and also Europeans with dark complexions or hair. But contemporary references to Alessandro's dark skin, curly hair, wide nose and thick lips, as well as visual evidence from surviving portraits, suggest that he was indeed of mixed heritage.
The slave status and possible African origin of Alessandro's mother are not surprising. Black Africans had been imported into Europe as slaves since 1440 onwards, when the Portuguese opened a new trade route between Mediterranean Europe and the west coast of sub-Saharan Africa. Many Italians, often from the maritime republics of Genoa and Venice, were involved in the trade, and in the 1460s there developed a fashion for using black African female slaves for domestic labour. These slaves were seen as symbols of status but also of the exotic new lands that were then being discovered.
Sometimes, there were sexual relations between female slaves and their masters or other freedmen. Florentine statutes of 1415 granted children born of such unions the free legal status of the father. However, Roman law, which applied across much of the Italian peninsula, stated that the legal status of a child followed that of its mother. Female slaves were therefore often freed by their masters so that their children would be free. After Alessandro's birth in Urbino, Simonetta was freed and moved to Colle Vecchio, near Rome, where she lived with her husband Lostensor (whose name may suggest that he was also of African descent) and their two children.
Like many freed Africans in Renaissance Italy, Simonetta lived in poverty. Letters that she wrote to Alessandro in the 1530s, asking for financial aid, reveal a stark contrast between her scanty means and the wealth of her son.
The cameo shown here, possibly made by Alessandro's court medallist and gem-engraver Domenico de' Vetri, bears a profile portrait of the duke, bearded and dressed in the style of a Roman emperor. The choice of green chalcedony may have been intended to represent Alessandro's dark skin and tightly curled hair. During the Renaissance, cameo portraits in the classical tradition were important as emblems of dynastic power. They were highly prized by collectors and were often presented as gifts.
The painting of Alessandro, in which his dark skin and hair is visible, follows an earlier half-length portrait by the Florentine painter Jacopo Pontormo (1494-1556), now in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. The Philadelphia portrait shows Alessandro dressed in mourning for the death of Clement VII and drawing the profile of a woman in silverpoint. It was commissioned in 1534 as a gift for Taddea Malaspina, the mother of two of his illegitimate children, probably in commemoration of the birth of their daughter Giulia.
Alessandro had many enemies among Florentine exiles. They regarded him as a tyrannical despot responsible for depriving republican Florence of its liberty. Seemingly unconcerned with the ethnicity of his mother, they mocked Alessandro for her peasant status, even accusing him of poisoning her to hide his lowly origins. This suggests that people of African or mixed heritage who held positions of power, such as ambassadors and dignitaries, were less likely to be subjected to racial stereotyping than their poor or enslaved counterparts.
As the first of the Medici to be installed as a hereditary ruler of Florence, Alessandro has received surprisingly little study. Historians have criticised his rule for its severity, but contemporaries were more favourable. They commented on his political skills, spontaneous generosity and concern for the poor, as well as his informal style of leadership. Like other members of the Medici dynasty, Alessandro was also a patron of the arts.
His ethnicity has usually been ignored, perhaps because historians were uncomfortable with the fact that Alessandro's descendants married into eminent houses all over Europe. Writers who did acknowledge his mixed heritage judged him harshly, claiming that he was an unprincipled, sexually voracious seducer of aristocratic women. Hopefully, the recent academic interest in Alessandro will lead to an unbiased reassessment of his character, reign and significance in European history.
Alessandro de' Medici Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Hey Doug, are you sure the men in the back of the procession are Libyans? What is your source for this?? Any hieroglyphic indication? I was under the impression that these were Egyptians. I know the Libyan assumption may be based on the feathers but we know such feathers were also worn by Egyptians on special religious occasions as well.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness
quote:Obviously the kings of Spain at the time, Al Aldalus, Caliphs rather, did not have European crowns and hoop earrings:
And you would have been right,but the above is neither Iberian nor of the time from the original invasion but of a later date I also gave examples of Moors converted into Christians in another thread.
Go to the right side of the text start with the Norman conquest of Sicily.
Swabian and Moors as a matter of fact This^ guy was connected to the Normans as pointed out earlier and something has to be looked into coming from Mike If the above is connected to the Swabian kings then one can see where it began(see text above) and how the descendants of these powerful but Christianized blacks would later spread through out Europe,what maybe disturbing to you is the fact that there were hundreds if not thousands of them if one has to go by the family sir names of Moor in caption of a Black on a crest. Some of this is faint but you can still read the Sir names of the families attached to them..remember these are coat of arms of founders of families they were the ones who commissioned these crest.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The last image Brada presents is from Rogers' Nature Knows No Colorline which has 22 plates of such crests. It's the motherlode for heraldry buffs seeking blackamoors.
The surnames w/locale include (top to bottom and left to right)
More de Maine, More de Beavoisis, More de Paris, More el Flandre, Morel Forez, Morel Lorr
Morel Bourg, Morelet des Forges Bourg, Morell Berne Land(...), Morel Paris, Morel Fatio Pide Vaud, Morel de Duesme Bourg
Hey Doug, are you sure the men in the back of the procession are Libyans? What is your source for this?? Any hieroglyphic indication? I was under the impression that these were Egyptians. I know the Libyan assumption may be based on the feathers but we know such feathers were also worn by Egyptians on special religious occasions as well.
I should have said western Tjehennu or Tjemehu. (of course some would say everything to the west was "Libya"). Note that some would say that Ramses III was the last great king of the New Kingdom and not to long after him, the New Kingdom ended and the Third Intermediate Period began. It is during this time that Libyan Chiefs from the West claimed power. But which Libyans are we talking about? If you look at the tombs of the Western Oases and the mummies from the 21st and 22nd dynasty they are some the blackest of any period in Egypt, along with the dark black depictions found here in Medinet Habu. Just something to consider....
While on the topic of Fillets and Egyptian dress (its odd that wikipedia tries to lay the origin of the fillet in Greece).
Here is another better example of a diadem or fillet crown from Egypt (with a fancy rose crux or rose cross): commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crown_of_Sit-Hathor_Yunet_%28Senusret_II%27s_daughter%29.jpg
The above are from the Middle Kingdom. There is a floral diadem from a princess named Khnumet that is quite excellent as well but I couldn't find an image to link to.
And then coming on down to the Medieval period you have this. The headdress of a Doge in Venice: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Portrait_of_Doge_Cristoforo_Moro_%281390-1471%29.jpg/372px-Portrait_of_Doge_Cristoforo_Moro_%281390-1471%29.jpg
Look familiar?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Doug in another thread you had Persians wearing Western European type Crowns and I thought that's where those types of crowns originated but looking at the above is another shocker hiding in plain sight..those damned Kemites and Nile valley folks sure know how to up stage everyone in any age,from crowns to head bands.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
The relationship of the black image to the concept of justice was nowhere more politically utilized than with the Holy Roman emperors of the Hohenstauffern dynasty. Indeed, it would appear that the sable blazon of the imperial eagle and that of the moor's head were meant to be perceived as synonymous. The simple headbands worn by both are, as a matter of fact, identical and, interestingly enough, nothing less, despite the simplicity of the design, than the imperial diadem' of ancient Rome. Also interesting is the fantastic coat of arms attributed to Ethiopia by the heralds of the middle ages. For like the bicephalic bird of the Holy Roman Empire, Ethiopia bore a 'v' shaped emblem with a blackamoor's head 'torsed' at the end of each arm. This parallelism between both sets of heads can, of course, be explained by the "rex / sacerdos" argument which occupied the very centre of the political stage during this particular period of history. To both the Pope who preached the imperial nature of his sanctified position and the emperor, Frederick II, who believed in the priestliness of his own power, the figure of the African priest king, Prester John, became an almost magical icon politically. If we can interpret the double-headed eagle represented the claims of both the church and the state, it would be quite logical to surmise that the reason why Ethiopia's arms were conceived as double-headed is due to the belief already mentioned that the Negus (emperor) exercised the prerogatives of both priest and king.
As Joseph Campbell has pointed out, it was to this African figure that European literature first attributed the very concept of popular justice. Indeed, while the Church showed off his famous letter of introduction and circulated copies of it to the Christian world, rumors in Frederick's own lifetime made him an intimate friend of this semi-mythical king. According to popular belief, for instance, Prester John had presented him with armor made of asbestos, the elixir of youth, a ring of invisibility and, most precious of all, the philosopher's stone. Because they are described in the 'Tristam und Isult' cycles, the arms of Sir Pallamedes, the Moorish prince who becomes a knight of the Round Table, have received a certain amount of scholarly attention. Chequered in black and white, this highly contrasting design would appear to be nothing more than perhaps the most abstract icon of those dualities already pointed to, such as God and Jacob (Jacquelado is the word for checkered in Spanish), or Church and State. Instead of his coat armour, it is the body of Sir Fierfitz Angevin, the black knight from Eschenbach's 'Parzival' that is patterned in a piebald motif. The fact that the poet likens Fierfitz's skin to a parchment with writing is what expands this symbol to its most encompassing parameters. To the Greeks, Pallamedes, the mythological figure from whom Sir Tristam's Moorish companion derives his name, was commemorated as the inventor of writing, counting, weighing and measuring and the games of the chessboard. Since his name translates as 'Ancient Wisdom', it has been suggested that all dualistic tensions were intended to be nuanced; from the most simple 'yes or no', 'O or I' to the most sophisticated of Parmenedes' models regarding 'The I and the Thou' or 'The One and the Many'. Obviously playing with the same kind of bifurcated symbolism as the Hohenstauffern eagle or the two headed branch of Ethiopia, the writer of the prose Tristam recounts that of all the knights of the Round Table, Sir Pallamedes was the only one who wore two swords. Whether as a reference to Pallamedes' name or the political wisdom Prester John stood for, or, perhaps, as a conflation of both, it is interesting that the blackamoor's head was one of the earliest watermarks in the history of paper making. Examples collected date from about 1380 to 1460. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/ssecretum2.html Klik^me for more reading
I repeat the Hohenstauffern dynasty is key to all this, Mike is definitely headed in the right direction on this.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Yes, the depiction of Moors heads goes back to the actual reconquista in Spain during which they were intended as a representation of decapitated Moors. Moors meaning black folks....
Berber tribes from North West Africa(majority of the Invading Islamic armies)
The word moor primarily refers to the Berber component of the invading Islamic armies
1) Please name some Berber leaders of the invading Islamic armies.
2) Please indicate, using old and/or modern names if possible, specific types of Berbers who were the primary types of Berber comprising the Beber component of the invading Islamic armies
thank you
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Youssef Ibn Tachfin a Sanhadja Gabriel Tarik a Nafza To name but two I am sure there are Moor.. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
pictures like this:
gives us a better idea of what the Muslim armies looked like than sterotyped images that we see on Coats of Arms labled "Moors" heads. What you see is a variety of types.
^^^Peter I (Pedro I) receiving a shield emblazoned with the Cross of Saint George. According to legend, George appeared on the field of battle at Alcoraz.
There are four dark heads of decapitated Moors with crowns on their heads in the above painting of 1594. The Battle of Alcoraz took place nearly 588 years earlier in 1096 outside Huesca (Arabic Wasqah), pitting Peter I of Aragon and Navarre against the relief forces of Al-Musta'in II of Zaragoza. It is not contemporary to the event and it cannot be assumed the painting represents a realistic situation in which "Moors", who may have been killed in battle, had European crowns and there were four of them with crowns and that these crowns represented them being kings of Moors, or that these Moors were so dark you can't even make out their facial features. And these Moors with European crowns, crowns which can't have represented actual Moorish leadership have no names, they are anonymous, yet the battle was not fought against four kings.The opposition was no mystery, It was led by Al-Mustain II and he was not killed in the battle but lived until 1110, 14 years after the battle. This painting is not representing the actual history so we cannot assume anything about it is accuarte. It seems somewhat mythological.
According to legend, St. George appeared on the field of Battle at Alcoraz (similar to the way St, James popped up in another batter to slay Moors) The heads of four decapitated Moors were also said to be found on the battlefield and, according to legend were added to George's familiar emblem, the Cross of Alcoraz. Peter I was born in 1068 and lived to 1104. In actuality the shield had been created around 200 years later by Peter III who lived from 1289-1235. It was only in the 15th century that version of the shield that pictured the decapitated heads was attributed to Peter I. St George's Day is celebrated in may countries. In Russian georgia it is known as the "day of decpitation ".
The Cross of Alcoraz would later form the basis for the Sardinian coat-of-arms. Originally the coat of arms depicted four "Moors" heads blindfolded but was later changed to four "Moors" heads with bandanas.
_____________________________________
The painting above was painted nearly 600 years after the The Battle of Alcoraz. The battle was between Peter I of Aragon and the Kingdom of Navarre against Al-Mustain II of Zaragoza. Supposedly after the battle they found some heads lying around not with turbans but with European crowns still attached to them. yeah right
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Doug in another thread you had Persians wearing Western European type Crowns and I thought that's where those types of crowns originated but looking at the above is another shocker hiding in plain sight..those damned Kemites and Nile valley folks sure know how to up stage everyone in any age,from crowns to head bands.
That is not a contradiction in any sense. The Persians that I refer to are from the 2nd to 7th century AD. They were the direct precursors to the "medieval" culture of Europe. Their traditions go back to the Aechmenid Persians of Old, who in turn were strongly influenced by the Egyptians. So in terms of timelines, this is not strange at all. Ancient Egypt was long gone by the time of the Medieval period. However, many traditions from Egypt had been absorbed into surrounding cultures and then passed on to Europe. The Islamic Invasions from North Africa are one source for a lot of these influences, but Persia and Armenia are also another source, but this source is also strongly infused with the traditions of nomadic horses and warfare which ultimately originated in the Eurasian steppes. It is that combination of Persian, Asian and North African influences that develops into European "medieval" culture. Note that Medieval culture is unlike the preceding culture of Rome or Greece, which so many people like to claim. And that is because most of the stylistic and cultural trends of the day were originating not in Greece or Rome but Persia, Asia and North Africa. Persia at the time of the Sassanids was one of the key endpoints and conduits into the West for the Silk Road. Persia and their affiliated satellite entities in Sogdiana, Armenia and Syria were a major player in the ancient world of the time. Rome was strongly influenced by the culture of Persia and surrounding peoples. The Byzantines were the strongest expression of the borrowing of Rome from Persian precedents. And this area was the site of almost constant conflict, primarily involving nomadic cultures and horse warfare for most of the period between the 2nd century and 10th century. You had the Romans fighting the Persians, Persians against central Asian nomads, Romans versus the early Turkic peoples, Romans versus the Huns and so forth. It is from this crucible that the warfare traditions of the medieval era emerges centered around the heavily armored knight. Note that the Normans who invaded England learned their skills while fighting in the East as Mercenaries for the Byzantines. They absorbed these traditions and brought them to the West. And the reason why the mounted knight became more strongly centered in the West is because the West had the raw materials, like wood and iron ore, to really maximize the advantage of such trends, while the Near East generally did not.
Also, the West was relatively quiet and not laid waste by the invasions of Marauding Nomadic armies. In fact it is the Romans and later Byzantines that are part of the reason for this as they were the western buffer against such attacks and the fact that most of this was absorbed by Eastern Europe and Southern Russia. So Western Europe was relatively isolated from the devastation wrought by the conflicts in and around the Levant and the exhaustion of the limited resources of that region. What Europe needed was the spark to organize the people and the resources to take advantage of their situation and this is what happened in the periods after the 10th century, sparked first by the Muslim invasion of Spain and followed by the crusades, which signaled the beginning of the rise of Europe over its antecedents in the Levant and North Africa.
But over and above all of that, many Egyptian artifacts are only seen in an artistic perspective at galleries and museums all over the world. Very rarely are such pieces put into their proper historical context. Therefore, wikipedia and some historians can claim a Greek origin for the "fillet" headdress even though Egyptian and Near Easter examples exist from a thousand years earlier. That of course is more likely due to Eurocentrism than anything else.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
As for the depictions of Almohads and Almoravids, there is no definitive artwork showing anyone that is clearly labeled as being an Almoravid or Almohad from the 11th-13th century when they actually ruled Spain. And again, they were a minority in the Islamic population of Spain. Most of the Muslims in Spain at the time were converts. The cantiagas actually shows clearly that many of the muslims used Christian mercenaries and many were themselves converts to Islam.
But nevertheless, please show me any translation or transcription that clearly states these images to be depictions of Almohads or Almoravids specifically rather than general images of Muslims from Spain(who could be of any background). For that matter, show me any translation or transcription in any language that shows the images of the Cantiagas as "Moors".
Below is an actual image from the early 1400s showing black heads on the arms of Aragon, with the obvious implication that Moor means black and not just any general member of the Muslim population of Spain:
quote:The differentiation of the opposing troops is depicted through the handling of the figures, even if there is little difference in their physical appearance. Indeed, the Muslims are only identifiable because they have beards. Their features are not caricatured, and their skin colour varies from figure to figure, probably to highlight the ethnic diversity of the Muslim inhabitants of the Island of Majorca and thereby distinguish the Africans, Arabs, and Majorcans.
Again, not all Muslims in Spain were black Africans and hence Moors at least in my usage of the term.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Repost,
Yes, I agree with that, we deal with two types of contextsNoise is religious and the other is ethnic.
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.
Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology
-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient -Mediterranean and the Near East -Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture -Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance
"I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition."
North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. "Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers." Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius"
Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Yes, the depiction of Moors heads goes back to the actual reconquista in Spain during which they were intended as a representation of decapitated Moors. Moors meaning black folks....
Berber tribes from North West Africa(majority of the Invading Islamic armies)
The word moor primarily refers to the Berber component of the invading Islamic armies
1) Please name some Berber leaders of the invading Islamic armies.
2) Please indicate, using old and/or modern names if possible, specific types of Berbers who were the primary types of Berber comprising the Beber component of the invading Islamic armies
thank you
Why? Are you claiming that Berbers were ethnically identical to Europeans and Arabs or Syrians in terms of phenotype? Surely you are joking. It is obvious that "the Berber component" of those Armies clearly distinguishes them as Africans and not Arabs, Syrians or Europeans. Any suggestion otherwise is nonsense and requires you to provide support not me as it is simple and plain enough to understand as is.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Note the rosettes which became part of the basis for the "rose cross" or Coptic cross.
For example:
quote: n the 500s, Apa (Father) Jeremias founded a Coptic monastery at Saqqara, the ancient Egyptian necropolis (cemetery) for the city of Memphis, near the oldest pyramids. He and the earliest monks lived in ancient tombs at the site. As the monastery grew, several grand churches with lavish decoration were built as well as many chapels, public buildings, and multi-unit complexes of cells (rooms) for individual monks. The monastery continued to grow after the Arab conquest, with materials from Early Byzantine tomb structures being reused for additional monastic structures. Inscriptions record prayers to numerous holy figures. Sculptural elements from Saqqara often are carved with deeply cut, stylized patterns to intensify the play of light and shadow and mask the solidity of the architecture, a style popular throughout the Byzantine world in the 500s.
And the cultural and folkloric bear out the notion that the Moors were what Europeans would call "black".
In Elizabethan times in England--Moors were described as "black-a-moor" and "tawny moor". "Tawny"--as we know--yellow/brownish[khaki] in colour.
More folklore: In Cuba a meal of black beans and rice--usually eaten at some annual festival is called "Christos y Moros". Obviously the "Christos" are the white rice and the "Moros",the black beans.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Yes, the depiction of Moors heads goes back to the actual reconquista in Spain during which they were intended as a representation of decapitated Moors. Moors meaning black folks....
Berber tribes from North West Africa(majority of the Invading Islamic armies)
The word moor primarily refers to the Berber component of the invading Islamic armies
1) Please name some Berber leaders of the invading Islamic armies.
2) Please indicate, using old and/or modern names if possible, specific types of Berbers who were the primary types of Berber comprising the Beber component of the invading Islamic armies
thank you
Why? Are you claiming that Berbers were ethnically identical to Europeans and Arabs or Syrians in terms of phenotype? Surely you are joking. It is obvious that "the Berber component" of those Armies clearly distinguishes them as Africans and not Arabs, Syrians or Europeans. Any suggestion otherwise is nonsense and requires you to provide support not me as it is simple and plain enough to understand as is.
My point was proven in the original two posts. Dark skinned people identified by Europeans as "Moors" being slain by St. James.
St. James the Moor Slayer
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
My contention is that the Berbers are a mixed group to begin with who arose from populations out of East Africa and the Eastern Saharah and were likely black. They obviously mixed with Europeans and Eurasian from an early date to create light skinned and white Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: there's evidence for European (north Mediterranean) immigrants to littoral N Africa in prehistoric times
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Algeria: A Country Study, which reads: “The Berbers are a composite people
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ The Lyingass still misses the point that MOOR meant BLACK NOT Berber or North African!
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Doug in another thread you had Persians wearing Western European type Crowns and I thought that's where those types of crowns originated but looking at the above is another shocker hiding in plain sight..those damned Kemites and Nile valley folks sure know how to up stage everyone in any age,from crowns to head bands.
Something as simplistic as crowns and diadems are not unique to Africans Nile Valley or not. In fact the style of crowns in Europe were very different from the royal headdresses worn in Africa and even the diadems of Africa were unique in style to those of Europe. As far as Persian crowns I take it you are referring to the polos which was originally a headpiece worn by goddesses and women.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
According to Wiki, here are the origins of the Almohad:
The dynasty originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribe of the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Ibn Tumart was the son of a lamplighter in a mosque and had been noted for his piety from his youth. In his early life, he performed the hajj to Mecca, whence he was expelled on account of his severe strictures on the laxity of others, and thence wandered to Baghdad, where he attached himself to the school of the orthodox doctor al-Ash'ari.
And thanks to Dana, we all know how the Masmuda look like.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The image of St. James is mythical and based on the allegory for the Reconquista which conquered the Muslims of Spain. Such romantic iconography has nothing to do with the actual origins of the said persons in Africa referred to as Moors by the ancients and or their phenotypes.
If you really want to be serious about ethnic descriptions of individual historic personalities labelled as "Moors" by Europeans then you will have to read some old texts in Spanish. And for ethnographic descriptions of the Almoravids and Almohads you will have to consult texts in Spanish, Portuguese and Arabic.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ The Lyingass still misses the point that MOOR meant BLACK NOT Berber or North African!
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Doug in another thread you had Persians wearing Western European type Crowns and I thought that's where those types of crowns originated but looking at the above is another shocker hiding in plain sight..those damned Kemites and Nile valley folks sure know how to up stage everyone in any age,from crowns to head bands.
Something as simplistic as crowns and diadems are not unique to Africans Nile Valley or not. In fact the style of crowns in Europe were very different from the royal headdresses worn in Africa and even the diadems of Africa were unique in style to those of Europe. As far as Persian crowns I take it you are referring to the polos which was originally a headpiece worn by goddesses and women.
European crowns are based on the older crowns of the Nile Valley, Persia and Near East. The point is that the oldest type of crown called a "diadem" is found in Egypt yet the historians claim they originated in Greece or Europe. The styles may vary but in basic form they are a metal version of a floral garland and or ribbon of cloth worn around the head. All three forms are found in ancient Egypt but also the Near East. It is due to the evolution in the representation of Egyptian lotus flowers that we get the origin of the fleur de lis (lilly flower) found in later European crowns. They are all part of the same evolutionary continuum and the "European" version is not unique or "new". It is something that they inherited primarily from the Persians/Babylonians and Asians who passed it on to the Romans and the rest of Europe. But because of Eurocentric historical bias, you wouldn't know that.
And keep in mind that the early Islamic armies adopted much of this style of dress and fashion and "court culture" as they conquered Persia and North Africa and introduced it to Spain. Also note that the tents and the decroation inherited much from the Muslims who in turn inherited much from the Egyptians, Romans and Central Asians (especially in design and decoration).
quote: A diadem is a type of crown, specifically an ornamental headband worn by Eastern monarchs and others as a badge of royalty. The word derives from the Greek diadema, "band" or "fillet", from "I bind round", or "I fasten".
The term originally referred to the embroidered white silk ribbon, ending in a knot and two fringed strips often draped over the shoulders, that surrounded the head of the king to denote his authority. Such ribbons were also used to crown victorious athletes in important sports games in antiquity. It was later applied to a metal crown, generally in a circular or "filet" shape. For example, the crown worn by the kings of Anglo-Saxon England was a diadem, as was that of a baron later (in some countries surmounted by three globes). The ancient Celts were believed to have used a thin semioval gold plate called a mind (Old Irish) as a diadem.[3]
A diadem is also a jeweled ornament in the shape of a half crown, worn by women and placed over the forehead (in this sense, also called tiara). In some societies, it may be a wreath worn around the head. The ancient Persians wore a high and erect royal tiara encircled with a diadem.
By extension, "diadem" can be used generally for an emblem of regal power or dignity. The head regalia worn Roman Emperors, from the time of Diocletian onwards, is described as a diadem in the original sources and it was this object that the barbarian king Odoacer sent to Zeno (the Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire) following the dissolution of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD.
Yet I have given you historical documentation and evidences of diadem crowns in floral form, fabric form and metal form from Egypt thousands of years before the Greeks.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
This has been explained numerous times by bot Me and Doug on E.S. She thought that she could pull a Mathilda and post images of White and Mulatto Muwalladun Andalucian Muslims and claim they were representatives of the Moors. She does'nt know many of us are well versed in Moorish history unlike her and her Master Mathilda.
She has been caught busted which is why she is trying to spin and scamble to defend her debunked positions..
Trying to pass off the Riyad HAdith as a authentic self depiction of the Moors..
All I have to say is
FAIL!!
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ The Lyingass still misses the point that MOOR meant BLACK NOT Berber or North African!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The image of St. James is mythical and based on the allegory for the Reconquista which conquered the Muslims of Spain. Such romantic iconography has nothing to do with the actual origins of the said persons in Africa referred to as Moors by the ancients and or their phenotypes.
If you really want to be serious about ethnic descriptions of individual historic personalities labelled as "Moors" by Europeans then you will have to read some old texts in Spanish. And for ethnographic descriptions of the Almoravids and Almohads you will have to consult texts in Spanish, Portuguese and Arabic.
The image of St. James is mythical. So is four decapitated Moor heads with European crown still attched to their heads as opposed to Turbans
In the paintings of St. James, he is portrayed as slaying Moors. Moors were real people and the armies that invaded Spain and Portugal were largely Moors. These paintings depict typical looking people of these armies whom the Europeans were calling Moors. They are often shown with skin that would be considered dark relative to many Europeans.
In modern day Holland for example schools that have a lot of Arabs and a few dark skinned North Africans get called "black schools" Calling people, many who are light brown Turks and Arab Moroccans does not correspond to American definitions of "black". Neither does who medieval Europeans might call black. Modern day America does not set the standard for the meaning of "black" in the old world. In fact it has no standard definition
If you look at other medieval European art depicting Moors very dark, sometimes pitch black these are not people in battle scenes they are balck Africans from places like Ethiopia, most often slaves, servants, former slaves or servants and Christianized black Africans.
If you you at the old manuscripts which are more like historical records the Muslim armies that the Christians were fighting for control of Iberia were a hodgepodge of varied types, some indigenous African looking but many not and most certainly not pitch black sterotypes you might see on coats of arms.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Brada Anansi
Whats to refute?? that Moors mostly Black,and Eastern Islamic folks(mostly lite skinned) of all sorts including Turks were at war with mostly White and Christian Europeans?(Christian Nubians and Ethiopians) being the exception??
What's to refute?? That the Moors were not MOSTLY Black. That's what. If such were the case you expect to see more Blacks in the depictions. And there were not many Turks involved in Moorish Spain, sonny. They came later and took over many Moorish terrirtories.
Bottom line most of the North Africans looked just like the North Africans Today. I'll say it again. Most of the North Africans looked just like the North Africans Today! Historical reports actually mention that Black troops were brought in from Senegal and Mali..meaning the Berbers were not Black.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness made a great hue and cry about images of late medieval era Moors she deems sterotypical then she goes on to post pics from the Renascence era but did not chose these pics Early Islamic image of Aristotle No!! this is not renascence or even a Moor but I throw this in there anyways like Lioness did above Baptism of the Moorish Chamberlain - Oil on canvas, Lioness you were doing Ok until you start playing chess like these guys above but you are the only one who keeps getting pawned!! Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Lioness you are talking nonsense. I have told you that most Muslims in Spain were not Africans nor Syrians but rather indigenous converts and Slaves (Slavic) people. Islamic Spain was majority native Iberian, even among the Muslims. The invading populations of Almoravids, Almohads and others were a distinct minority. At most the actual invading force of the Almohads may have numbered somewhere in the range of 20,000. Surely not anywhere near enough to change the entire population.
Again, you have not shown anything but your complete inability to address facts. I asked you where in those sources of those images from the Cantiagas were labelled as "Moors" and you have shown no proof. And you have certainly shown no proof that any of these people were identified as Almohads or Almoravids. You started the thread and named i "art depicting Almohads and Almoravids" but not once have you shown any transcription or translation identifying these images as those of the Almoravids or Almohads.
As I said before, the Africans were treated like second class citizens by their Syrian overlords but they were a key part of the military force the initial invasion. But due to infighting and conflict within the Islamic community many of these Berbers were expelled and replaced with Slave (slavic) troops, christian mercenaries and others. And the only reason the Almoravids and Almohads arrived into the area was to quell the squabbling between individual factions of Syrians, Goths, Slavs and Berbers.
Simply put you have not once shown any one shred of evidence backing up these images as that of being Almoravids or Almohads. And they aren't. They are general depictions of Muslim populations engaged with Christians but none are specifically identified.
The word Maure followed by Moor derives from the black skin of the inhabitants in parts of North West Africa. It was only later made into a general term for Muslims. But in your nonsensical attempt to say that the original Almoravids and Almohads were not black, you come up with ass-backward logic of saying, well these images show white muslims so the Almoravids and Almohads must have been white..... Sure.
Totally butt backward logic.
Now if you had some sense you would actually refer to direct sources and analysis of said Cantigas, but you don't.
Some facts. Out of the 420 some folios, only 44 refer to Muslims or Moors. How many are directly identified as Almoravids or Almohads?
Not to mention any scholarship on the accuracy of those depictions relative to any ethnic population of Muslims from any part of Africa or anywhere else.
It is a generic volume not intended to be treated as a ethnographic document or anthropology.
So the fact remains, the Almoravids were primarily Africans from North Western Africa stretching down into modern Senegal and the majority of these people were indeed blacks. No amount of nonsense about paintings of European Muslims will change this.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Lioness made a great hue and cry about images of late medieval era Moors she deems sterotypical then she goes on to post pics from the Renascence era but did not chose these pics[/b]
brada, stop being a hypocrite, the above illustration is 20th century and the painting is by Henri Emilien Rousseau ( 1875-1933)
It appears as if you are only pawning yourself
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Saqaliba (singular: siqlabi or saqlabi) is the medieval Arabic word for the people of eastern Europe, the "Slavs"; however, ... Whole groups of Berbers also came to Andalusia from North Africa as mercenaries in the mid- 10th century. ...
Las Españas medievales Bonnassie,Marie-Claude Gerbet,Pierre Guichard
... en Andalucía (Granada, Ronda, Carmona, Málaga), funcionarios y oficiales saqaliba en los centros de la costa oriental ... Algunos lo hacen con inteligencia, como el príncipe saqaliba de Denia, Mudjahid, que crea en su capital una ...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Lioness you are talking nonsense. I have told you that most Muslims in Spain were not Africans nor Syrians but rather indigenous converts and Slaves (Slavic) people. Islamic Spain was majority native Iberian, even among the Muslims. The invading populations of Almoravids, Almohads and others were a distinct minority. At most the actual invading force of the Almohads may have numbered somewhere in the range of 20,000. Surely not anywhere near enough to change the entire population.
Again, you have not shown anything but your complete inability to address facts. I asked you where in those sources of those images from the Cantiagas were labelled as "Moors" and you have shown no proof. And you have certainly shown no proof that any of these people were identified as Almohads or Almoravids. You started the thread and named i "art depicting Almohads and Almoravids" but not once have you shown any transcription or translation identifying these images as those of the Almoravids or Almohads.
As I said before, the Africans were treated like second class citizens by their Syrian overlords but they were a key part of the military force the initial invasion. But due to infighting and conflict within the Islamic community many of these Berbers were expelled and replaced with Slave (slavic) troops, christian mercenaries and others. And the only reason the Almoravids and Almohads arrived into the area was to quell the squabbling between individual factions of Syrians, Goths, Slavs and Berbers.
Simply put you have not once shown any one shred of evidence backing up these images as that of being Almoravids or Almohads. And they aren't. They are general depictions of Muslim populations engaged with Christians but none are specifically identified.
The word Maure followed by Moor derives from the black skin of the inhabitants in parts of North West Africa. It was only later made into a general term for Muslims. But in your nonsensical attempt to say that the original Almoravids and Almohads were not black, you come up with ass-backward logic of saying, well these images show white muslims so the Almoravids and Almohads must have been white..... Sure.
Totally butt backward logic.
Numidian kings
Syphax
Juba I
Juba II
Juba II Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
We are still waiting for you to produce original and authentic translations of the images you posted...Doug posted the original source for some of your images and none are labeled "Moors"..
The differentiation of the opposing troops is depicted through the handling of the figures, even if there is little difference in their physical appearance. Indeed, the Muslims are only identifiable because they have beards. Their features are not caricatured, and their skin colour varies from figure to figure, probably to highlight the ethnic diversity of the Muslim inhabitants of the Island of Majorca and thereby distinguish the Africans, Arabs, and Majorcans.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The image of St. James is mythical and based on the allegory for the Reconquista which conquered the Muslims of Spain. Such romantic iconography has nothing to do with the actual origins of the said persons in Africa referred to as Moors by the ancients and or their phenotypes.
If you really want to be serious about ethnic descriptions of individual historic personalities labelled as "Moors" by Europeans then you will have to read some old texts in Spanish. And for ethnographic descriptions of the Almoravids and Almohads you will have to consult texts in Spanish, Portuguese and Arabic.
The image of St. James is mythical. So is four decapitated Moor heads with European crown still attched to their heads as opposed to Turbans
In the paintings of St. James, he is portrayed as slaying Moors. Moors were real people and the armies that invaded Spain and Portugal were largely Moors. These paintings depict typical looking people of these armies whom the Europeans were calling Moors. They are often shown with skin that would be considered dark relative to many Europeans.
In modern day Holland for example schools that have a lot of Arabs and a few dark skinned North Africans get called "black schools" Calling people, many who are light brown Turks and Arab Moroccans does not correspond to American definitions of "black". Neither does who medieval Europeans might call black. Modern day America does not set the standard for the meaning of "black" in the old world. In fact it has no standard definition
If you look at other medieval European art depicting Moors very dark, sometimes pitch black these are not people in battle scenes they are balck Africans from places like Ethiopia, most often slaves, servants, former slaves or servants and Christianized black Africans.
If you you at the old manuscripts which are more like historical records the Muslim armies that the Christians were fighting for control of Iberia were a hodgepodge of varied types, some indigenous African looking but many not and most certainly not pitch black sterotypes you might see on coats of arms.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Jari
All of this does not change the fact that the word Moor means black, and was applied by Southern Europeans to people darker than themselves. This idea that Moor=Berber is unfounder as the people who coined the Term Moor applied it based on appearance not Language.
Riiiight so the Spanish and the Visigoth called them Moors becuase of their dark appearance?? Wrong! The folks on the other side of Gibraltar were called Mauri since the Roman times. That was their name. Arabic tradition has Tarik who led the Moors inot Spain being blond.
Later on other Europeans (not the Spaniards) called Blacks, Moors. Because the depictions of the few Black Moors it what stuck out in their imaginations and later became sensationalized. Beside any Black they were likely to encounter would have been a Muslim in league with the folks invaded Spain. To this day the Spanish call people in Morocco, Moros and Blacks Negros. You would think they would know something about the subject, no.
Here the racial classifications the Spanish applied to their subjects in the New World.
Español : Spanish/spaniard Español Criollo: Colonial-born Spaniard Indio: Indian Jíbaro, Jabaro Lobo and Salta atrás Ladino : Spanish (¾) and Indian (¼) Lobo : Indian (¾) and Negro (¼) Mestizo : Spanish (½) and Indian (½) Moreno : Spanish (½), Indian (¼), and Negro (¼) Morisco : Spanish and Mulato. In Spain: a baptized Moor Mulato : Spanish (½) and Negro (½). In Chile and Colombia: can also be Indian and Negro Negro : African Black Negro fino Negro (¾) and Spanish (¼) Pardo : Indian (½), Spanish (¼), and Negro (¼) Zambo In Peru: Negro and Mulato. In Venezuela: Indian (½) and Negro (½) clio.missouristate.edu/.../HST%20350--Theme%2021--Castas--Mestizaje_and_racial_categories.htm
So basically the Spanish saw the Moors as people who look like they were only 1/4th Black. Which is about what Puerto Ricans or Middle Easterners look like.
What you got say about that??
In the 10th Century the Spanish Christians converted enmasse to Islam and comprised majority of the population of Andalus. The White Slave Market was probably the biggest in An-dalusia esp. among the Elite.
Perhaps but in the depictions would the Spanish converts be cheiftans with turbans?? Because we see European types and a few Blacks in plain garb. Yet most of leaders with Turbans are not Black, I don't think they are Christian converts either..Lol.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
So you admit to using double standard from you pic spam Lioness?? who is the hypocrite you damed well know that your pics had nothing to do with the middle ages early middle or late.. Like the above posted by you and then by me had fuk all to do with the subject.. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Totally butt backward logic.
Numidian kings
Syphax
[/QB][/QUOTE]
As if unpainted Busts prove anything...
Bust of Septimius Serverus..
Art work depicting Skin Tone/Phenotype of Septimius
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Jari ^^^ you think this swarthy man with large curling hair is African? come on son
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness
quote:you think this swarthy man with large curling hair is African?
Was he African born carried African genetic material, spoke an African tongue as a first language then Duh yesss
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
The Cambridge Economic History of Europe: Trade and industry in the Middle Ages
Ahmad Nazmi- Commercial Relations Between Arabs and Slavs (9th-11th centuries)
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Jari
Riiiight so the Spanish and the Visigoth called them Moors becuase of their dark appearance?? Wrong! The folks on the other side of Gibraltar were called Mauri since the Roman times. That was their name. Arabic tradition has Tarik who led the Moors inot Spain being blond.
I believed Altakruri already schooled your ass on the Etymology of the word Moor. and I can care less about Myths of a blond Tarik.
A physical description of the famed Amazigh general and tactician was given on this forum without any scholarly citation or reference to back it up. To remedy that ill:
quote: "His skull was large, his hair black, and his face swarthy; his expression was one of energy and strong will." Eliyahu Ashtor The Jews of Moslem Spain v1 p.4 Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society. 1973
but again there exists no authentic description or Image of the man, so who is to say.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Later on other Europeans (not the Spaniards) called Blacks, Moors. Because the depictions of the few Black Moors it what stuck out in their imaginations and later became sensationalized. Beside any Black they were likely to encounter would have been a Muslim in league with the folks invaded Spain. To this day the Spanish call people in Morocco, Moros and Blacks Negros.
Once again the Spainish did not introduce the word Moor, it goes back to Greek and Roman Etymology, Mauros meaning black. So in essence this rant is irrelevent.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You would think they would know something about the subject, no.
You would think YOU would know what you are talking about.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Here the racial classifications the Spanish applied to their subjects in the New World.
Español : Spanish/spaniard Español Criollo: Colonial-born Spaniard Indio: Indian Jíbaro, Jabaro Lobo and Salta atrás Ladino : Spanish (¾) and Indian (¼) Lobo : Indian (¾) and Negro (¼) Mestizo : Spanish (½) and Indian (½) Moreno : Spanish (½), Indian (¼), and Negro (¼) Morisco : Spanish and Mulato. In Spain: a baptized Moor Mulato : Spanish (½) and Negro (½). In Chile and Colombia: can also be Indian and Negro Negro : African Black Negro fino Negro (¾) and Spanish (¼) Pardo : Indian (½), Spanish (¼), and Negro (¼) Zambo In Peru: Negro and Mulato. In Venezuela: Indian (½) and Negro (½) clio.missouristate.edu/.../HST%20350--Theme%2021--Castas--Mestizaje_and_racial_categories.htm
So basically the Spanish saw the Moors as people who look like they were only 1/4th Black. Which is about what Puerto Ricans or Middle Easterners look like.
Once again what does this have to do with anything?? Please explain the relevance. BTW, Where do you think Mulatto comes from...?? Muwalladun. Muwalladun AKA Mulatto in Andalucia had a drastically different meaning in the New World Racial classification.
You expect meanings and words to stay the same??
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What you got say about that??
Say about what?? What are you trying to prove??
P
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: erhaps but in the depictions would the Spanish converts be cheiftans with turbans?? Because we see European types and a few Blacks in plain garb. Yet most of leaders with Turbans are not Black, I don't think they are Christian converts either..Lol.
As in the other thread it does'nt matter what the F-k you think. the mass conversion of the Spainish Muwalladun in the 10th century is a Historically backed fact. And we are not even talking about the Saqalibba Slaves, the Syrians, Arabs etc. We are not even talking about the effects of the Native White Slave Market in Andalucia and North Africa...
What you think is moot.
Next.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Was he African born carried African genetic material, spoke an African tongue as a first language then Duh yesss
Yeah but he is no sub saharan Black now is he? He looks like.. surprise surprise, a modern North African!
I love how you harp on the term "AFRICAN" to semantically link whatever you can to YOU!
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Bottom line, there is no artwork depicting any of the Numerous African contingents among the invaders to Islamic Spain done by the muslims themselves. The only descriptions that exist of these people by eyewitnesses are written. The only artwork that does exist was primarily done by Europeans and does not in any sense convey any sort of level of detail for doing anthropological studies. It is simply generalized artwork.
Here is an example of textual documentation:
quote: Choosing his opportunity, therefore, Muhamad of Algezira advanced with a powerful army against Malaga, the greater part of his force consisting of African Negroes. He entered the city without resistance, and hems mere joined by the Negroes who formed the guard of the Alcazaba these last enthroned Muhamad Ben Edris in the palace, and he was there proclaimed King of Malaga by tnose Negro troops.
But the people of Malaga, by whom their sovereign was much esteemed and beloved, would not permit him to be thus deprived of his throne : they took arms against the Negroes, whom they compelled to shut themselves up in the Aicazaba, which the blacks then fortified and defended with much bravery. The men of Malaga next formed a great encampment, and besieged the fortress very closely ; but desiring nothing more than to rid themselves of those who had thus seized the throne, they proposed favourable conditions to the Negroes, many of whom passed over in effect to their camp, while those who remained, perceiving that their numbers were daily diminishing, while they had not the means of replacing those deserters, no longer dared to make sallies on the Malagan defences.
Granted many of these texts are in themselves not 100% accurate and contain errors and flaws, but the point is that for anyone to say that blacks were not a significant part of the invading Islamic forces is simply a joke.
The term Moor derives from the indigenous African blacks who made up a great part of the invading forces of the Muslims in Spain and were used in various portions throughout the subsequent period of Islamic Spain and whom made up the greater part of the Berber armies. They were not Europeans, they were not Syrians and they were not Arabs. They were indigenous North West Africans. All this going around in circles only means that some people just cannot accept facts.
And Brada, rather than letting these clowns lead you around why don't you let them provide proof of what they started this thread with, ie: pictorial evidence of the Almoravids and Almohad dynasties. They have yet to provide any.
Suffice to say if they cannot provide that, then the rest is irrelevant.
And any understanding of the ethnic populations of the Muslims has to take into account the clans and backgrounds of each.
quote: The inhabitants of Grenada, and, indeed, the whole Moorish people, were divided into tribes, composed of the different branches of the same family. Some of these tribes were more numerous and important than others: but two distinct {226} races were never united together, nor was one of them ever divided. At the head of each of these tribes was a chief who was descended in a direct male line from the original founder of the family. In the city of Grenada there existed thirty-two considerable tribes. The most important of these were the Abencerrages, the Zegris, the Alcenabez, the Almorades, the Vanegas,the Gomeles, the Abidbars, the Gauzuls, the Abenamars, the Aliatars, the Reduans, the Aldoradins, etc. These separate races were, many of them, at enmity with each other; and their animosity being perpetuated from one generation to another, gave rise to the frequent civil wars which were attended with such disastrous consequences to the nation at large.
quote: Under such favourable auspices, it is not to be wondered at that the Saracens became a literary people. The caliphs of the West and of Africa imitated their brethren of the East. "At one period, six thousand professors and pupils cultivated liberal studies in the college of Bagdad. Twenty schools made Grand Cairo a chief seat of letters; and the talents of the students were exercised in the perusal of the royal library, which consisted of one hundred thousand manuscripts. The African writers dwell with pride and satisfaction on the literary institutions which adorned the towns on the northern coast of their sandy plain. The sun of science arose even in Africa, and the manners of the Moorish savage were softened by philosophy. {250} Their brethren in Europe amassed numerous and magnificent collections; two hundred and eighty thousand volumes were in Cordova, and more than seventy libraries were open to public curiosity in the kingdom of Andalusia."
The Man was a Half Italian Mulatto yet he is quite darker than his White Wife. Your scambling, ranting, and double standards wont save you bitch.
You are no different than IronLion and Mike when pushed into a corner..
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Karakala The Black Emperor of Rome!
[/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Juba I
Juba II
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Jari ^^^ you think this swarthy man with large curling hair is African? come on son
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Melcloir
quote:What's to refute?? That the Moors were not MOSTLY Black. That's what. If such were the case you expect to see more Blacks in the depictions. And there were not many Turks involved in Moorish Spain, sonny. They came later and took over many Moorish terrirtories. Bottom line most of the North Africans looked just like the North Africans Today. I'll say it again. Most of the North Africans looked just like the North Africans Today! Historical reports actually mention that Black troops were brought in from Senegal and Mali..meaning the Berbers were not Black.
Look pickneey If such were the case you expect to read from text about more Whites..and even your Gal gave us the the Greek transilation of the word mavros, black.
I can come up with text after text of the description of what a Moor looked like beginning with Juvenal and ending with Shakespear.. but do you really want me to go there??
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes, The Abundance of European Slaves and other Eurasian migrants/Immigrants to Andalucia is a documented fact. Its a historical fact that Andalucia was flodded with Non Moorish/Africans after the Invasion in 711.
This does not even take into account the Mass conversion of the "Muwalladuns" or native Spanish Muslims in the 10th Century..
The thing is folks who are only google scholars don't want to talk about the fact that the Muwalladuns were the majority in Andalucia, these Google Frauds don't post that important information when they post images of White and Mulatto Muslim Andalucians...
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: The Cambridge Economic History of Europe: Trade and industry in the Middle Ages
Ahmad Nazmi- Commercial Relations Between Arabs and Slavs (9th-11th centuries)
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
I believed Altakruri already schooled your ass on the Etymology of the word Moor. and I can care less about Myths of a blond Tarik.
Really? I kept telling him the word came from Phoencian Mahur. He refused to believe what can I do. I guess it just doesn't fit his agenda..
"His skull was large, his hair black, and his face swarthy; his expression was one of energy and strong will."
Eliyahu Ashtor The Jews of Moslem Spain v1 p.4 Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society. 1973
Whats with the excerpt? Was Tarik a Jew? Does swarthy mean Negro?
Once again what does this have to do with anything?? Please explain the relevance.
Wtf? The REVELANCE is that they apparently didn't see Moors as Blacks but as light brown/olive compleceted people. There is no way you can overlook that inference in their clasification system unless you are seriously disingenous.
BTW, Where do you think Mulatto comes from...?? Muwalladun. Muwalladun AKA Mulatto in Andalucia had a drastically different meaning in the New World Racial classification.
"Muladí, a term that was applied to Iberian Christians who had converted to Islam during the Moorish governance of Iberia in the Middle Ages.
However, the Real Academia Española (Spanish Royal Academy) casts doubt on the muwallad theory. It states, "The term mulata is documented in our diachronic data bank in 1472 and is used in reference to livestock mules in Documentacion medieval de la Corte del Justicia de Ganaderos de Zaragoza, whereas muladí (from mullawadí) does not appear until the 18th century, according to [Joan] Corominas"."
But that is besides the point. The classification is self exlanatory Mulato is defined as Black And Spanish. A person of only 1/4 Black blood is called a Morisco (Moor).!
As in the other thread it does'nt matter what the F-k you think. the Spainish Muwalladun in the 10th century is a Historically backed fact. What you think is moot.
Yeah keep on talking your empty smack boy.
You been knocked down! I dare you to get back up..
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Melchior
quote:Yeah but he is no sub saharan Black now is he? He looks like.. surprise surprise, a modern North African! I love how you harp on the term "AFRICAN" to semantically link whatever you can to YOU!
Why should he need to be Sub Saharan Black?? Are these guys Sub Saharan Blacks or plain ol Blacks from north Africa? How about these guys North African Black enough for ya?? and Juba II was supposed to be from the line on Anthony and Cleopatra..just saying!!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Man was a Half Italian Mulatto yet he is quite darker than his White Wife.
Doug I agree with Jari here. Look at his hair, straight strands in lare curls not coiled.
As per the coinage depicting Numidian kings, they look fairly Roman or Phoenician perhaps mulattoes who were mixed with indigenous North Africans. That's the type you see in some the depictions of Moors in the St. James paintings. This is the type you often see battling the Christians in paintings. They also had darker more African looking types amoung them who might be likened to people like the Tuareg.
Biut people in the coats of arms are often depicted as jet black like they were Dinka or something. As you had acknowledged the term "Moor" would later get applied to any African in Europe. A lot of very dark black people with afros you see in some European paintings represent slaves and servants or the children of slaves but free, whoever they were- often not related to people who lived in North Africa and actaully invaded Iberia. many are misidentified as "Moors", you must agree.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Look pickneey If such were the case you expect to read from text about more Whites..and even your Gal gave us the the Greek transilation of the word mavros, black.
I can come up with text after text of the description of what a Moor looked like beginning with Juvenal and ending with Shakespear.. but do you really want me to go there??
"The Greeks called "blacks" "Aethiopes" and stated they were confined to Africa and India, claiming they were there burned by the heat of the tropics"
Shakespeare Othello was a fictional character who hailed from Mauretania. I wonder why not Morocco or Algeria?
And here is a Moor from around Shakespeare's time.
He was the MOORISH ambassador to queen Elizabeth I. And doesn't look at all Black! WTF??!!!
"JUMP UP JUMP UP AND GET DOWN" Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
But people in the coats of arms are often depicted as jet black like they were Dinka or something. As you had acknowledged the term "Moor" would later get applied to any African in Europe. A lot of very dark black people with afros you see in some European paintings represent slaves and servants or the children of slaves but free, whoever they were- often not related to people who lived in North Africa and actaully invaded Iberia. many are misidentified as "Moors", you must agree.
True and it should be pointed out the Spanish did not refer to Any Black as Moor.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Really? I kept telling him the word came from Phoencian Mahur. He refused to believe what can I do. I guess it just doesn't fit his agenda..
Yep, and posting Phonecian has nothing to with anything considering the word Moor, Mauros is Greek word..
Moor Look up Moor at Dictionary.com "North African, Berber," late 14c., from O.Fr. More, from M.L. Morus, from L. Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Gk. Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
Guess it does'nt fit your agenda.
Whats with the excerpt? Was Tarik a Jew? Does swarthy mean Negro?
??????
Wtf? The REVELANCE is that they apparently didn't see Moors as Blacks but as light brown/olive compleceted people. There is no way you can overlook that inference in their clasification system unless you are seriously disingenous.
Dumbass the definition of the Moors changed over time. As been explained majority of the Andalucian population was non Moorish. The Moriscos were not Africans. Majority of the people who were forced to convert were Native Spanish. This is all documented facts that occured before New World Mixing.
Mulatto(Mulladi) in Spain meant a Native Convert to the Religion, in the New World it was a European and Black Mixed person.I guess that makes the Muwalladuns half Blacks in Andalucia??
The classification is self exlanatory Mulato is defined as Black And Spanish. A person of only 1/4 Black blood is called a Morisco (Moor).!
Dude give it up. The fact that majority of the inhabitants in Andalucia were not Moors but Muwalladuns and Syrians, Saqalibba, Turks and Arabs is documented fact. The fact that you admit that the Spanish idea of a Moor is based off the Moriscos proves my point not yours. The Moriscos were not African Moors. The Berbers/Moors never migrated in signifigant numbers
The Moriscos population was about 500,000 strong not counting the expelled and defeated/killed Moriscos..
An average estimate of the Moorish population in Spain by census ranging from 1568 to 1609 and their geographical distribution is as follows:
Once again the Berbers/Moors did not migrate in such numbers. They probably numbered less than 20,000 at best.
Conversion of the Moriscos..
Yeah keep on talking your empty smack boy.
You been knocked down! I dare you to get back up..
Oh-My..LOL.
Your grasping at straws and scrambling to find info to back you up is obvious. You are loosing this fight, no need for me to post silly images, your ass kicking is obvious by my words alone.
Next.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness I think you are a Janjaweed who needs to relax and smoke some Ganja weed..your objection to deep shade Blacks of African origins is quite clear you can't stand seeing them in position of influence and power
He was a Bishop a man of influence and power
Note the turbaned guy at the bottom right hand corner you know the type ..you like!!
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Yeah how unfortunate for you his mother was a Fulani princess despite his looks.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB]
almohad sultan abu hafs umar al mortada , a portrait done in his lifetime ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
almohad army ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
alfonso X book ( santa maria ) :
the word mouros can be seen above
Doug what does the above represent. Is this not a fair representation of the varied peoplesof the armies who invaded Iberia?
Is the term "Moorish Spain" accurate?
.
,
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You seem to love to talk out your ass.
Maures as synonymous with Athiopies..(Black)
Frank Snowden Blacks in Antiquity Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1970 pp. 11-12
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"The Greeks called "blacks" "Aethiopes" and stated they were confined to Africa and India, claiming they were there burned by the heat of the tropics"
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You seem to love to talk out your ass.
Maures as synonymous with Athiopies..(Black)
BLACKS IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD,
Frank M. Snowden, Howard University Blacks in Antiquity Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1970 pp. 11-12
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"The Greeks called "blacks" "Aethiopes" and stated they were confined to Africa and India, claiming they were there burned by the heat of the tropics"
BLACKS IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD,
Frank M. Snowden , Howard University
Blacks and Whites in Northwest Africa
The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks, far fewer than in the art of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. [16]
Hannibal is an additional illustration of an "African" who has been erroneously regarded as black. J.A. Rogers states that the Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians, a Negroid people, and that in fact until the rise of the doctrine of white superiority Hannibal was traditionally known as a black man. [17] In this same tradition, Van Sertima [18] refers to Carthaginians as "a largely Africoid people", and publishes some illustrations of coins depicting Negroes and elephants in a drawing by Sylvia Bakos, which are markedly similar to coins from central Italy appearing in Blacks in Antiquity, where it is argued that the Negroes represented Hannibal's mahouts. [19] Van Sertima's describes the coins were actually Carthaginians. Coins, however, issued in Spain, with portraits of Hannibal's family, the Barcaids, depict these Carthaginians as Caucasoids, not as blacks. [20] Finally, neither Rogers nor Van Sertima cites any ancient source as a basis for the statement that the peoples who came to Carthage from Phoenicia, located in southwestern Asia at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, were Negroid or Africoid, i.e. blacks. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yeah how unfortunate for you his mother was a Fulani princess despite his looks.
He already knew this, but he kept his head in his arse.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Dr. Lange, in his diary, wrote this interesting story:
"The capital of the kingdom of Granada is the city of the same name that rises above the hills on which is built so that no height opposition outside its walls can dominate its surroundings. Granada is almost twice that Nuremberg and in its surrounding mountains, even in the hottest days of the year, abundant snow, its inhabitants used to cool the wine. The city of Granada is just a dozen miles from the Mediterranean. You can, therefore, to arrive to Africa in three days, and four others can reach the western boundary of the world. In the past, belonged to the Moorish Granada, had two kings during the wars of his later years and six years was besieged by King Ferdinand, whose army built to their doors to the small town dede Santa Fe, and whose wife, Isabel , conquered the seventh year for our faith sacrosanct.
Continue: half the population are white Moors, whose wives and daughters wear white pants sailor pants (almost identical to those used by shepherds in Germany),(la mitad de la población son moros blancos, cuyas mujeres e hijas visten blancos pantalones de marinero calzones (casi idénticos a los que en Alemania usan los pastores) and also wear clothing that also white cover from the face to the calves, but, more importantly, they cover their faces. In order to be allowed to freely use this kind of attire, each must pay an annual tax to the emperor of a duchy. Those who do not want to enter the church on Sundays have to pay the priest a year real. Also in the hillsides of the city there are still deep caves to visit, in which a contingent of Christian captives (including a bishop) were locked at night and which are rented by day to make us work in all sorts of crafts.
And were: the aforementioned city reconquered the day of San Juan and for this reason every year the nobles and bourgeois dress up that day of Moors and Turks bearing shields and spears and celebrate a kind of burlesque profession that runs throughout the city at dawn . Later in broad daylight and held a mock victory. There is loose then, six or seven bulls in the market place for people to run and the sugar. Following comes the cavalry followed, dressed in costumes Moors and Turks, divided into two camps. They shoot each other complex and large muskets, loaded only with gunpowder saved, be pursued in all directions, pretending great surprises, now advancing, now receding and graceful attitudes adopted in the meantime.
We saw on the feast of San Juan Bautista and the Emperor himself participated in these games in Granada, in the presence of the Empress and a host of Portuguese bridesmaids. That same day three men were fatally injured by the bulls, and an old horse, wounded accidentally shot in the head, had to be finished there.
He continues: they are forbidden to those mentioned Moors (with severe penalties) the use of weapons, both in the field, and their houses, except a small knife to cut bread and another to puncture the meat (do not eat meat hunting and all that consumed comes from animals caged, tied enclosed in fences). And to this end the judges will make their home record twice a month.
Also, on our last day of stay in Granada invited the emperor to preside over my Lord with him, in a garden at the foot of the hill of the Alhambra, a Moorish show. Adorned with beautiful pearls and precious stones in necks, ears and arms, and dressed (almost as deacons for the Mass) according to the customs of his land, danced to the sound of flutes, violas and drums, after which three women fifty years and another that fell was about forty and sang while alive and amazing pagan rhythms, while the others clapped rhythmic shouting happily.
After the dance, some berries climbed to the top of the hill and danced on a tightrope stretched between two locations, and then opened her legs with a brazen, as he faces the Emperor, screaming in his native tongue: "Everyone who live here can get to heaven. "
After this performance was given to drinking water.
Also: young women with henna Castilla berries get their nails with a bright orange (they figure) gives a special attraction. In my opinion makes them resemble our miserable tanning is Nuremberg. Also considered shameful for a girl to take even one sip of wine. Therefore, all of water.In drink that city of Granada make all kinds of silk garments, but always black, indelible ink for lack of other colors and are slightly more expensive than in Germany, with the notable exception of Taffeta double, which here is very beautiful. Pearls are also cheap here.
There are also magnificent vineyards and a large winery near the walls of the city. At first, there was no place either in the palace to house the secret of my lord, and for two days we got to sleep on the floor, then the Moors rented white mats, which they demanded a deposit of 15 ducats.
We stayed two weeks in Granada and the July 7, thank God, we continue our journey joyfully.
Another detail: The Emperor's Palace was built by the Moors in the Alhambra hill, within the precincts of the city, and inside you can still see the curious and splendid bathrooms in the Moorish king who bathed with their wives, few of those who had all he wanted: he wanted to but after a bath, sent him an apple.
The water that runs through all the aforementioned palace (which is also a fish pond) also flows through almost all the other houses of the city. The water is unhealthy, and if you drink is easy to get sick from dysentery, but there was no other kind of water, nor wells. "
Why would he make the effort to say the half the Population was "WHITE" Moors. Why not just call them Moors if Whites were the original Moors..??and What/who were the other Moors,
Makes no damn sense..
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The image of St. James is mythical and based on the allegory for the Reconquista which conquered the Muslims of Spain. Such romantic iconography has nothing to do with the actual origins of the said persons in Africa referred to as Moors by the ancients and or their phenotypes.
If you really want to be serious about ethnic descriptions of individual historic personalities labelled as "Moors" by Europeans then you will have to read some old texts in Spanish. And for ethnographic descriptions of the Almoravids and Almohads you will have to consult texts in Spanish, Portuguese and Arabic.
The image of St. James is mythical. So is four decapitated Moor heads with European crown still attched to their heads as opposed to Turbans
In the paintings of St. James, he is portrayed as slaying Moors. Moors were real people and the armies that invaded Spain and Portugal were largely Moors. These paintings depict typical looking people of these armies whom the Europeans were calling Moors. They are often shown with skin that would be considered dark relative to many Europeans.
In modern day Holland for example schools that have a lot of Arabs and a few dark skinned North Africans get called "black schools" Calling people, many who are light brown Turks and Arab Moroccans does not correspond to American definitions of "black". Neither does who medieval Europeans might call black. Modern day America does not set the standard for the meaning of "black" in the old world. In fact it has no standard definition
If you look at other medieval European art depicting Moors very dark, sometimes pitch black these are not people in battle scenes they are balck Africans from places like Ethiopia, most often slaves, servants, former slaves or servants and Christianized black Africans.
If you you at the old manuscripts which are more like historical records the Muslim armies that the Christians were fighting for control of Iberia were a hodgepodge of varied types, some indigenous African looking but many not and most certainly not pitch black sterotypes you might see on coats of arms.
You don't know a thing about Holland so don't go there.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You don't know thing about Holland so don't go there. [/QB]
am I not correct the Dutch white people call "black schools", some of them being schools with some dark black people but more being light brown Turks and Arab Moroccans, people not decribed as black in America ( or white) ?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You don't know thing about Holland so don't go there.
am I not correct the Dutch white people call "black schools", some of them being schools with some dark black people but more being light brown Turks and Arab Moroccans, people not decribed as black in America ( or white) ? [/QB]
No, it is not because of that.
It's has to do with the social construction. Because they see them as non western immigrants.
This is how Dutch painted the Moors/ blacks.
Nijmeegse school. ca. 1483
Peter Paul Rubens 1577 –1640
1609
Jan van Bijlert 1597/98 –1671 Caspar 1640 –1650
Loyset Liedet 1420 –1479 Constantijn de Grote in Constantinopel 1455 –1460
And like anything in the western world. Black is considered negative.
As for Moroccans many do consider themselves black of African descent.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
If Moors looked like this..
Why would he make the effort to say the half the Population was "WHITE" Moors. Why not just call them Moors if Whites were the original Moors..??and What/who were the other Moors,
Makes no damn sense..
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Man was a Half Italian Mulatto yet he is quite darker than his White Wife.
quote:Originally posted by Selassie der könig: I believe there were a large number of Arabs during the inital invasion by the Ummayads. But as to all Muslim invaders of Spain history makes no distinction. They are all called Moors. The later Almoravids and Almohads were paractically all African however.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse).
As been explained majority of the Andalucian population was non Moorish. The Moriscos were not Africans. Majority of the people who were forced to convert were Native Spanish. This is all documented facts that occured before New World Mixing.
Aparently they thought of Moors as distinct enough to designate a racial category. If were just ordinary Spanish folks that wouldn't make a lot of sense now would it? Lol.
Yeah Mawali meant religious convert and then come to mean a racially mixed person. Go figure. The Arabic term deons't even appear in Spanish writing until the 18th century. A Mule is what? A MIXTURE between donkey and a horse. Do you understand logic?? Lol!
The fact that you admit that the Spanish idea of a Moor is based off the Moriscos proves my point not yours. The Moriscos were not African Moors
They were Moriscos were converts to Christianity period. ANd in the mind of most Christian Spaniards they were thought as having North African Blood. You can see here with the Spansih precoupacion with sangre azul. That Jews and Morisco. Were beleived to be of darker skin color.
"Este curioso efecto óptico ha sido el que creó la famosas expresiones “príncipe azul” o “personas de sangre azul” para referirse a la gente que pertenecía a la nobleza o a una categoría social elevada. Estas expresiones tienen su origen en las familias nobles de Castilla para afirmar que su sangre era pura y no estaba mezclada con sangre judía o morisca."
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called. The southerners, who did the menial jobs, slaves, artisans, foot soldiers, were of mixed Arab and African descent. They were stripped of their religion and culture, brought to the so-called New World where they were enslaved with African slaves. But the Moriscos never lost their culture." http://www.islamfortoday.com/ole.htm
In any case to this day, a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking person generally not Black.
They probably numbered less than 20,000 at best.
I guess you forgot they had over eight centuries to migrating and to reproduce! Lol!
Your grasping at straws and scrambling to find info to back you up is obvious. You are loosing this fight, no need for me to post silly images, your ass kicking is obvious by my words alone.
Oh ok now you are waxing delusional.
Hey one day I want to puff on some stuff that you got wit ya. Cause man that **** must be hittin hard! Lol!
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yeah how unfortunate for you his mother was a Fulani princess despite his looks.
Fulani Mother, called a Moor and he still isn't Black. His Moorish father must have been Albino looking.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Moro y cristianos means “Moors and Christians”. "Moors" refers to the black beans, and "Christians" to the rice. The name of the dish is likely a reference by early Cuban settlers to the Islamic Conquest of Spain (early 8th Century) and subsequent Reconquista (15th C.) which both had a profound effect on the Spanish culture and language.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: True and it should be pointed out the Spanish did not refer to Any Black as Moor.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
You seem to love to talk out your ass. Maures as synonymous with Athiopies..(Black)
Your copy and paste talks about the term as a "Poetical equivilant", at times a subistitute and... The orginal meaning of mauri is not clear and considered impossible it's ancient association with the word Black??
Well lets see what others have to say..
"the name which, present used, is loosely applied to any native of Morocco, but in its stricter sense only to the townsmen of mixed descent . In this sense it is also used of the Mahommedan townsmen in the other Barbary states: It has been by some connected with the Hebrew and Phoenician mahur, western . Wetzstein derives it from mahir, a corruption of Amasir with its plurals Imazir and Masir, archaic forms of the Berber native name Amazigh, the See also: FREE free . From Mauri, the classic name for the African tribes, the north-western districts.."
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB]
almohad sultan abu hafs umar al mortada , a portrait done in his lifetime ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
almohad army ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
alfonso X book ( santa maria ) :
the word mouros can be seen above
Doug what does the above represent. Is this not a fair representation of the varied peoplesof the armies who invaded Iberia?
Is the term "Moorish Spain" accurate?
.
,
Why are you asking me? You posted them. What do they represent?
Don't play ring around the rosy. You started the thread and said point blank that these were pictures of Almoravids and Almohads. Simple enough they are not. And if they are why don't you provide the proof?
So the question goes back to you, if these are indeed accurate depictions of the phenotypes of all the ethnic populations in Islamic Spain then how do you go about proving it? Seeing as you couldn't support your assertion about these being images of the Almoravids or Almohoads, then most certainly you cannot be trusted for anything else you are saying.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
When you go visit Spain and go into the old Muslim ALhambra Palace and look in the kings hall
This what you see. LOL!
You can say some put it at a later date whatever. But aparrently the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Aparently they thought of Moors as distinct enough to designate a racial category. If were just ordinary Spanish folks that wouldn't make a lot of sense now would it?
You are not offering any evidence just opinion. You still have not dismissed the fact that the Muwalladun comprised the Majority of Andalucia.
Yeah Mawali meant religious convert and then come to mean a racially mixed person. Go figure. The Arabic term deons't even appear in Spanish writing until the 18th century. A Mule is what? A MIXTURE between donkey and a horse. Do you understand logic?? Lol!
Muladi also was a person of Mixed heritage but came to define Spanish Muslims after the MAss Conversion in the 10th Century..
the Arabic version(Muwallad) and meaning of Mulladi is a Mixed person with an Arab Parent.
The Spanish and Portuguese word muladi is derived from Arabic muwallad. The basic meaning of muwallad is a person of mixed ancestry, especially a descendant of an Arab and a non-Arab parent.
But again it was also applied to Converts who adopted Arab(Islamic) culture. The Muwalladun were notorious for claiming Arab Blood and decent.
[i]who grew up among Arabs and was educated within the Islamic culture.
Muwalladun is an Arabic word not Spanish in origin.
This Ranting about Mules does not change the fact that the Spanish got the term Mulatto from Muwallad.
"Este curioso efecto óptico ha sido el que creó la famosas expresiones “príncipe azul” o “personas de sangre azul” para referirse a la gente que pertenecía a la nobleza o a una categoría social elevada. Estas expresiones tienen su origen en las familias nobles de Castilla para afirmar que su sangre era pura y no estaba mezclada con sangre judía o morisca."
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called. The southerners, who did the menial jobs, slaves, artisans, foot soldiers, were of mixed Arab and African descent. They were stripped of their religion and culture, brought to the so-called New World where they were enslaved with African slaves. But the Moriscos never lost their culture." ]http://www.islamfortoday.com/ole.htm
This Rant does not change the fact that the Moriscos were mainly Native Spanish not North Africans. You dummy you keep shooting yourself in the foot. First your own comment says the Moriscos Generals were white men from the North and the rest of the Moriscos are they are mixed raced folks with black blood and Arab blood. Means majority were Native Spanish in origin even in your own ranting and scurrying..
In any case to this day, a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking person generally not Black.
Show me where in your post it says anything about "Middle Eastern" Looking Moors, and yeah Dummy it makes sense the Moriscos were not all black when even your own source claims they were Mainly Spanish people, Either Converts or Mixed race..
Desperation..LOL.
I guess you forgot they had over eight centuries to migrating and to reproduce! Lol!
I guess you forgot that the Spanish Converted enmasse in the 10th century and became the main population of Andalucia..
I guess You forgot about the Saqalibba and white/Native slave Market, Syrians, Arab and Turk Migrants to Andalucia..
Ahmad Nazmi- Commercial Relations Between Arabs and Slavs (9th-11th centuries)
[/qb][/QUOTE]
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Originally posted by melchior7:
True and it should be pointed out the Spanish did not refer to Any Black as Moor.
What I meant to say is that Spanish did not call just any Black a Moor, like some other Europeans did. Because they knew better.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some people on this thread are confused. I am not. They are only confusing themselves even more.
quote: The twelfth century battles between the Berber Almohads and the kings of Christian Spain over the fragmented kingdoms of al-Andalus were couched in the rhetoric of religious conflict. Nevertheless, the southeastern coast, outside of Almohad rule, presents a more complicated vision of religious allegiance. Ibn Mardanīsh (r. 1146-1172), the most successful independent Muslim ruler of the Almohad period, was likely the great-grandson of a convert from Christianity to Islam (Mardanīsh is probably an Arabization of Martinus). His kingdom formed military alliances with Castile and Leon and Barcelona, and trade agreements with Genoa and Pisa.
Christian and Muslim sources depict Ibn Mardanīsh in dramatically different ways. He is described in Latin and Castilian sources as rex lupus or rey lobo, presumably because of his ferocity in battle, and is presented with some admiration. Arabic sources, on the other hand, many of them commissioned by the Almohads he was fighting, suggest that any rebellion against their rule constitutes religious sedition, and make Ibn Mardanīsh’s Muslim identity suspect.
This paper uses discussions of Ibn Mardanīsh by Muslim and Christian contemporaries to examine the interplay of ethnicity, religion and political allegiance during the Almohad period. While Arabic sources take pains to indicate Ibn Mardanīsh’s Christian roots, Latin and Castilian sources call him Saracen or Moor. Almohad sources suggest that Ibn Mardanīsh’s blood determines his religious identity – an idea that would find considerable currency in Spain during the Inquisition. But Christian sources never suggest that his genealogy affected his allegiance, or that his ethnicity differs from that of the Almohads. Ibn Mardanīsh’s intermediate role, between the Almohads and the kings of Christian Spain, is mirrored by his liminal religious position. The example of Ibn Mardanīsh therefore allows a close study of perceptions of ethnicity and religion in medieval Iberia.
Like I said, there were many ethnic groups in Islamic Spain and a lot of ethnic strife within the Muslim camp because of this. The African component was treated as second class and this caused no end of strife and chaos throughout the land, even as Africans were relied upon as a major part of the Islamic armies. But because of the uprisings and revolts of the black Africans against the Slave (slavic), Goth, Mulatto, Syrian and Arab overlords, more Slaves (slavic)people began to be used in Islamic armies, along with Christian mercenaries and native Spanish populations. Everything I have posted supports this and there is no confusion. Even the images provided at the beginning of this thread supports this fact. Case in point, see the images of the Christians asking Muslims for help against other Christians and/or other Muslims. This is especially true when the Almoravids and Almohads came on the scene because they represented primarily black African populations who again were considered second class, even though they were asked to come in and help calm the strife in the land. But at no time were non European Muslims ever the majority in Islamic Spain, except mainly at the very beginning. After that the population was primarily Spanish, converted from Christianity and or mixed, with the extreme minority being African, Syrian or Arab.
But some clowns want to pretend all of these people are the same when they are not.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: So basically the Spanish saw the Moors as people who look like they were only 1/4th Black. Which is about what Puerto Ricans or Middle Easterners look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
But aparrently the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You seem to love to talk out your ass.
Maures as synonymous with Athiopies..(Black)
BLACKS IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD,
Frank M. Snowden, Howard University Blacks in Antiquity Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1970 pp. 11-12
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"The Greeks called "blacks" "Aethiopes" and stated they were confined to Africa and India, claiming they were there burned by the heat of the tropics"
BLACKS IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD,
Frank M. Snowden , Howard University
Blacks and Whites in Northwest Africa
The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks, far fewer than in the art of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. [16]
Hannibal is an additional illustration of an "African" who has been erroneously regarded as black. J.A. Rogers states that the Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians, a Negroid people, and that in fact until the rise of the doctrine of white superiority Hannibal was traditionally known as a black man. [17] In this same tradition, Van Sertima [18] refers to Carthaginians as "a largely Africoid people", and publishes some illustrations of coins depicting Negroes and elephants in a drawing by Sylvia Bakos, which are markedly similar to coins from central Italy appearing in Blacks in Antiquity, where it is argued that the Negroes represented Hannibal's mahouts. [19] Van Sertima's describes the coins were actually Carthaginians. Coins, however, issued in Spain, with portraits of Hannibal's family, the Barcaids, depict these Carthaginians as Caucasoids, not as blacks. [20] Finally, neither Rogers nor Van Sertima cites any ancient source as a basis for the statement that the peoples who came to Carthage from Phoenicia, located in southwestern Asia at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, were Negroid or Africoid, i.e. blacks.
Sorry but the post by Snowden is retarded.
Black, Ethiopiod and so called negriod (negra) all have the same meaning..
There isn't such thing as a white Ethiopiod? lol smh.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Muladi also was a person of Mixed heritage but came to define Spanish Muslims after the MAss Conversion in the 10th Century..
But they weren't mixed. Lol
This Ranting about Mules does not change the fact that the Spanish got the term Mulatto from Muwallad. They likey didn't. Mule makes a lot more sense..unless you're Afrocentric.
This Rant does not change the fact that the Moriscos were mainly Native Spanish not North Africans.
Then why would the Spansih apply the term to folks who were 1/4 Black? Lol
First your own comment says the Moriscos Generals were white men from the North
I guess you can't read well either..
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse).
As been explained majority of the Andalucian population was non Moorish. The Moriscos were not Africans. Majority of the people who were forced to convert were Native Spanish. This is all documented facts that occured before New World Mixing.
Aparently they thought of Moors as distinct enough to designate a racial category. If were just ordinary Spanish folks that wouldn't make a lot of sense now would it? Lol.
Yeah Mawali meant religious convert and then come to mean a racially mixed person. Go figure. The Arabic term deons't even appear in Spanish writing until the 18th century. A Mule is what? A MIXTURE between donkey and a horse. Do you understand logic?? Lol!
The fact that you admit that the Spanish idea of a Moor is based off the Moriscos proves my point not yours. The Moriscos were not African Moors
They were Moriscos were converts to Christianity period. ANd in the mind of most Christian Spaniards they were thought as having North African Blood. You can see here with the Spansih precoupacion with sangre azul. That Jews and Morisco. Were beleived to be of darker skin color.
"Este curioso efecto óptico ha sido el que creó la famosas expresiones “príncipe azul” o “personas de sangre azul” para referirse a la gente que pertenecía a la nobleza o a una categoría social elevada. Estas expresiones tienen su origen en las familias nobles de Castilla para afirmar que su sangre era pura y no estaba mezclada con sangre judía o morisca."
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called. The southerners, who did the menial jobs, slaves, artisans, foot soldiers, were of mixed Arab and African descent. They were stripped of their religion and culture, brought to the so-called New World where they were enslaved with African slaves. But the Moriscos never lost their culture." http://www.islamfortoday.com/ole.htm
In any case to this day, a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking person generally not Black.
They probably numbered less than 20,000 at best.
I guess you forgot they had over eight centuries to migrating and to reproduce! Lol!
Your grasping at straws and scrambling to find info to back you up is obvious. You are loosing this fight, no need for me to post silly images, your ass kicking is obvious by my words alone.
Oh ok now you are waxing delusional.
Hey one day I want to puff on some stuff that you got wit ya. Cause man that **** must be hittin hard! Lol!
Weren't you claiming earlier on that North Africans are basically the same as "Mediterraneans" .
I mean, what happened to that thesis?
These are the Moors that became Christians in Europe.
Abraham Bloemaert 1564 –1651 (en / of Hendrick Bloemaert 1601 –1672?) Doop van de Kamerling 1620 –1625
HONDECOETER, Gillis Claesz. d' Baptism of the Moorish Chamberlain - Oil on canvas, 111 x 203 cm Rockox House, Antwerp
And this is how they depict the Morisco.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
But they weren't mixed. Lol
Dude you are being Ignorant or you have no idea about the topic at hand. The Word was applied to a person or Mixed Arab heritage AND a Person who was non Arab and adopted the Culture of Arab people. Further the Muwalladun would claim Arab Blood, another documented fact, which probably explains why the Arabs called them Muwallads.
They likey didn't. Mule makes a lot more sense..unless you're Afrocentric.
According to who?? Muwallad mean a Mixed Person. Muwallad is a just as good explanation of the origin of Mulatto. You realize this which is why you are grasping at Straws and resorting to Ad Hominem Fallacy by ranting about Afrocentrics.
Then why would the Spansih apply the term to folks who were 1/4 Black? Lol
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The southerners, who did the menial jobs, slaves, artisans, foot soldiers, were of mixed Arab and African descent. They were stripped of their religion and culture, brought to the so-called New World where they were enslaved with African slaves. But the Moriscos never lost their culture." http://www.islamfortoday.com/ole.htm
You Tell me the very Source you are quoting in your failed attempts to scramble and scurry out of this ass beating agrees with me..
I guess you can't read well either..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
LMAO,
Dude..
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yes my agenda is accuracy of facts.
Fact: Lexicons used in university level Latin say Maur = black Fact: There is no Phoenician/Punic Semitic root m-h-r, peruse Tomback or BrownDriverBriggs.
He doesn't even believe it himself the bullish he posts.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7:
quote: Originally posted by JariI believed Altakruri already schooled your ass on the Etymology of the word Moor.
Really? I kept telling him the word came from Phoencian Mahur. He refused to believe what can I do. I guess it just doesn't fit his agenda..
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: But they weren't mixed. Lol
Dude you are being Ignorant or you have no idea about the topic at hand. The Word was applied to a person or Mixed Arab heritage AND a Person who was non Arab and adopted the Culture of Arab people. Further the Muwalladun would claim Arab Blood, another documented fact, which probably explains why the Arabs called them Muwallads.
They likey didn't. Mule makes a lot more sense..unless you're Afrocentric.
According to who?? Muwallad mean a Mixed Person. Muwallad is a just as good explanation of the origin of Mulatto. You realize this which is why you are grasping at Straws and resorting to Ad Hominem Fallacy by ranting about Afrocentrics.
Then why would the Spansih apply the term to folks who were 1/4 Black? Lol
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The southerners, who did the menial jobs, slaves, artisans, foot soldiers, were of mixed Arab and African descent. They were stripped of their religion and culture, brought to the so-called New World where they were enslaved with African slaves. But the Moriscos never lost their culture." http://www.islamfortoday.com/ole.htm
You Tell me the very Source you are quoting in your failed attempts to scramble and scurry out of this ass beating agrees with me..
I guess you can't read well either..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
LMAO,
Dude..
Moor means dark, yet Moors are white men from northern Spain? ok!
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Jan Mostaert's Portrait of a Moor (1520-1530)
He was a man in high position. Not a slave.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB]
almohad sultan abu hafs umar al mortada , a portrait done in his lifetime ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
almohad army ( cantegas de santa maria - alfonso x )
alfonso X book ( santa maria ) :
the word mouros can be seen above
Doug what does the above represent. Is this not a fair representation of the varied peoplesof the armies who invaded Iberia?
Is the term "Moorish Spain" accurate?
.
,
Why are you asking me? You posted them. What do they represent?
Don't play ring around the rosy. You started the thread and said point blank that these were pictures of Almoravids and Almohads. Simple enough they are not. And if they are why don't you provide the proof?
So the question goes back to you, if these are indeed accurate depictions of the phenotypes of all the ethnic populations in Islamic Spain then how do you go about proving it? Seeing as you couldn't support your assertion about these being images of the Almoravids or Almohoads, then most certainly you cannot be trusted for anything else you are saying.
Oh and by the way all of those are not images from the Cantigas of Santa Maria. And only some of them are said to be affiliated with the Almohads. However, don't be confused. The Almohads took over and conquered Islamic Spain and all of it outside of the independent Islamic rulers listed above, was under the Almohad banner. That does not make everyone at this time ethnically a North West African or West African Berber. And these images in no way are accurate enough to even begin to understand the ethnic background of any specific "Almohad" personage.
The alliances documented in the Cantigas are from later periods in the Almohad dynasty when it was effectively reduced to control only in parts of Morocco. It does not contradict that a major portion of the native North West African populations who partook in the rise of the Almohads were black. Again these people would have been the minority in Spain and the entire movement faced fierce resistance and was reduced to forming alliances with Christians to stave off their ultimate destruction.
Why do you think that the Amoravids were so hesitant to get involved in strife when requested by the Andalusians? Because he knew they were two faced, treacherous backstabbing bastards.
And after all these are documents glorifying the reconquista and cannot be expected to represent any form of accurate anthropological literature.
quote: Author: Bennison, Amira K Date published: April 1, 2011
The Almohads: The Rise of an Islamic Empire By Allen J. Fromherz London: I. B. Tauris, 2010, 274 pp., ISBN 9781845116514.
As a dynasty based in medieval North Africa and southern Spain, the Almohads have received relatively little attention from Anglophone scholars in Islamic Studies, many of whom work from a Middle Eastern perspective. Allen Fromherz's book is thus a very welcome contribution to the field. His over-arching aim is to present an account of the rise of the Almohads by looking at the Almohad movement's leader, Muhammad b. Tumart; the Masmuda Berber tribal environment in which the empire arose; and the doctrines by which Ibn Tümart galvanised these tribes from the High Atlas mountains of Morocco.
He introduces the Almohads in a lively and engaging way, using primary sources as the basis for the arguments presented in each chapter. He begins with a brief summary of the Almohad empire's history and then he wisely discusses the sources and their pitfalls, especially their mythic and legendary aspects (although inevitably he must also rely on them for his facts). He also flags up what he considers the neglected 'Berber' dimension within accounts of the rise of the empire.
I think that a lot of confusion stems from the fact that the Muslims in Spain were not like colonists in later eras. They did not try to obliterate the native population and replace it with their own ethnic group. But considering the failures of the exercise, one can clearly see the reasoning for creating the notion of ethnic cleansing and ethnic solidarity as the basis for later colonial endeavors. It makes it easier to rule over people.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
True and it should be pointed out the Spanish did not refer to Any Black as Moor.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What I meant to say is that Spanish did not call just any Black a Moor, like some other Europeans did. Because they knew better.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Huh....
Whaaa...
But....
Who...
But...
Whaaa....
I Mean...
Umm...
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
True and it should be pointed out the Spanish did not refer to Any Black as Moor.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What I meant to say is that Spanish did not call just any Black a Moor, like some other Europeans did. Because they knew better.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Huh....
Whaaa...
But....
Who...
But...
Whaaa....
I Mean...
Umm...
Also in the church is an immense monument showing Africans holding up the weight of fair skinned figures on the top row. In 1479 this probably had a different meaning than today. As we looked up at it, we were awed by the humanity in their eyes and forlorn at the tattered clothing they wore.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You don't know thing about Holland so don't go there.
am I not correct the Dutch white people call "black schools", some of them being schools with some dark black people but more being light brown Turks and Arab Moroccans, people not decribed as black in America ( or white) ? [/QB]
A old nursery song.
Moriaantje as black as soot, went outside for a walk without his hat, while the hot sun was shining on his head. So he bought a parasol/ umbrella.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: So basically the Spanish saw the Moors as people who look like they were only 1/4th Black. Which is about what Puerto Ricans or Middle Easterners look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
But aparrently the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
I guess you didn't bother reading the whole page. The Blue bloods, Curas (priests) etc are the conquering Christians! Duh! Lol!!!!
And Al Tukruri or whatever his name is, is full of ish. There is definetely words with the consonants MHR or MGR to mean West in Afro- Asiatic languages. Think Maghreb.
And 17th century paintings of Moors by Germans proves nothing. The Moors never reached Germany and they were pretty much gone after 1500. Lol.
You all see what North Africans look like today, you see the Spanish depictions etc. Yet you still want to believe that depite of everything they were all Blacks. Occam's razor be damned! That isn't logical deduction that is in exercise in some kind of Afrocentric FAITH!
You all should start a church! Lol!
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
True and it should be pointed out the Spanish did not refer to Any Black as Moor.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What I meant to say is that Spanish did not call just any Black a Moor, like some other Europeans did. Because they knew better.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Huh....
Whaaa...
But....
Who...
But...
Whaaa....
I Mean...
Umm...
I guess you didn't know that priests, curass are Christians. I would of thought at least the term "blue blood" would be a hint. Lol.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
The Song of Roland
Their martyrdom, his men's, Marsile has seen, So he bids sound his horns and his buccines; 1630 Then canters forth with all his great army. Canters before a Sarrazin, Abisme, More felon none was in that company; Cankered with guile and every felony, He fears not God,
their faces were black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot, and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel and hurtful than the wolf that comes at night to the flock of sheep. The vile African people. Courtesy of AL-Takruri
Orkneyinga saga
Moors vs Vikings
Once both parties were on board there was fierce fighting,the people on the Dromond being Saracens,whom we called infdels of Mohammed, among them a good many black men,who put up a strong resistance.
Earling,honored aimer of spears,eagerly advanced toward the vassel in victory,with banners of blood;the black worriors,brave lads we captured or killed,crimsoning our blades,busey with this Dromond business our blades we bloodied on the blacks.
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
- Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
Leo Africanus A Moor himself had this to say about his countrymen
For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry.
A very holistic way of looking at ones own people if you ask me.
And yes TP Melchior knew this as she took part in previous discussions but like TruthAndRights said Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: So basically the Spanish saw the Moors as people who look like they were only 1/4th Black. Which is about what Puerto Ricans or Middle Easterners look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
But aparrently the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
I guess you didn't bother reading the whole page. The Blue bloods, Curas (priests) etc are the conquering Christians! Duh! Lol!!!!
And Al Tukruri or whatever his name is, is full of ish. There is definetely words with the consonants MHR or MGR to mean West in Afro- Asiatic languages. Think Maghreb.
And 17th century paintings of Moors by Germans proves nothing. The Moors never reached Germany and they were pretty much gone after 1500. Lol.
You all see what North Africans look like today, you see the Spanish depictions etc. Yet you still want to believe that depite of everything they were all Blacks. Occam's razor be damned! That isn't logical deduction that is in exercise in some kind of Afrocentric FAITH!
You all should start a church! Lol!
Are you going to show us where those red bearded Eurasitic Kurds or whatever they are you posted are called MOORS or Moro now, Garrig!
I am anxiously awaiting. Thank you for your attention to this PERTINENT matter. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You are stupid, you can not even comprehend your own sources. Im not here to teach basic comprehension, but as they tell 1st and 2nd grade students..
Break Down the Sentences and pay attention to the Subjects. Its obvious your sources are talking about Moriscos not Christians.
It obvious at this point you lost any credibility you had. Which is why you are resorting to Ad Hom fallacy.
Al Takruri was right debunking you is like taking candy from a Baby.
You're dismissed..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The southerners, who did the menial jobs, slaves, artisans, foot soldiers, were of mixed Arab and African descent. They were stripped of their religion and culture, brought to the so-called New World where they were enslaved with African slaves. But the Moriscos never lost their culture." http://www.islamfortoday.com/ole.htm
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QUOTE]Originally posted by melchior7: a Moor is a North Africa Middle Eastern looking
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: So basically the Spanish saw the Moors as people who look like they were only 1/4th Black. Which is about what Puerto Ricans or Middle Easterners look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
But aparrently the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
"They were Moriscos, Moors forcefully converted to Christianity. The leaders, army generals, curas [priests] were white men from northern Spain... sangre azul [blue bloods] as they were called.
I guess you didn't bother reading the whole page. The Blue bloods, Curas (priests) etc are the conquering Christians! Duh! Lol!!!!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Leo Africanus, (c. 1494 – c. 1554) a Moorish diplomat and author who is best known for his book Descrittione dell’Africa (Description of Africa) describing the geography of North Africa.
The painter was Sebastiano del Piombo (1485 - 1547) Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Totally butt backward logic.
Numidian kings
Syphax
As if unpainted Busts prove anything...
Bust of Septimius Serverus..
Art work depicting Skin Tone/Phenotype of Septimius [/QB][/QUOTE]Numidian Kings?
These do not like Lamtuna Kel Aulimmiden, Zaghawa and Mauri to me. Coins such as these are not of nomads the chiefs who named Numidia whom Leo AFricanus said were Tuareg Lumtuna and Ilam.
The Numidians were considered Tuareg until the time of 16th century.
LYIN A__ - Romans and Greeks with olive branches around their heads do not look like the Mauri. Neo-Roman and Greek coins in Numidia or ancient North Africa are not Berbers. Some of these coins are listed in National Geographic as Roman generals - NOT NUMIDIANS OR CARTHAGINIANS OR MAURI AND OTHER PEOPLE the OLIVE SKINNED ROMANS CALLED "BLACKS" with "woolly" or "crisp" hair .
Septimius Severus was not Berber either although he may have had some African blood.
Keep hope alive though. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Leo Africanus, (c. 1494 – c. 1554) a Moorish diplomat and author who is best known for his book Descrittione dell’Africa (Description of Africa) describing the geography of North Africa.
The painter was Sebastiano del Piombo (1485 - 1547)
This guy at the bottom probably had more Moor or Berber and Arab in him then Leo Africanus who was an ANDALUSIAN of Muslim religion, which did not equal Moor. Go away Svenska. By the way - how is the weather there in Sweden, seriously.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Totally butt backward logic. [/qb]
Numidian kings
Syphax
Juba I
Juba II
Juba II [/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
These do not like Lamtuna Kel Aulimmiden, Zaghawa and Mauri to me. Coins such as these are not of nomads the chiefs who named Numidia whom Leo AFricanus said were Tuareg Lumtuna and Ilam.
The Numidians were considered Tuareg until the time of 16th century.
LYIN A__ - Romans and Greeks with olive branches around their heads do not look like the Mauri. Neo-Roman and Greek coins in Numidia or ancient North Africa are not Berbers. Some of these coins are listed in National Geographic as Roman generals - NOT NUMIDIANS OR CARTHAGINIANS OR MAURI AND OTHER PEOPLE the OLIVE SKINNED ROMANS CALLED "BLACKS" with "woolly" or "crisp" hair .
dana you do realize that was Carthage founded by Phoenician colonists from what is now Lebanon?
a new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 BC period, and by the 1st century it had grown to be the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire, with a peak population of 500,000
dana, who are their descendants of today in North Africa?
.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Dana don't let ms thang side tract from Leo Africanus statement For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry.
Let her and Melchior deal with this instead.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dana don't let ms thang side tract from Leo Africanus statement For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry.
Let her and Melchior deal with this instead.
brada this twany Moor
doesn't look like this blackamoor:
what's going on?
.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
The point that you are missing that even the though decapitated the four Moors divided by a cross were Kings in Europe defeated at an earlier time.
Obviously the kings of Spain at the time, Al Aldalus, Caliphs rather, did not have European crowns and hoop earrings:
Tariq ibn Ziyad led the Islamic conquest of Visigothic Hispania in 711 A.D.
Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur (c. 1160 – January 23, 1199), also known as Moulay Yacoub, was the third Almohad Amir
"Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience " Ibn Butlan.
Syrian Abu Shama of the 13th century refers to Masmuda as "the blacks".
I am curious to know how the paintings of supposedly Almuwahidun dynasties founded by the Masmuda changed from black to Uzbeki within a single century.
Funny I thought the Masmuda made up a large part of the Almuwahiddun Dynasty. I guess not though. So says Lyin A_ _ .
Either that or Masmuda came to look like the Syrians and Persians for a while in Spain and then changed to black.
Please explain as i am at a loss to understand.
And thank you for your attention to this matter. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You know it's awfully strange Lioness how nobody has come on this thread and tried to refute your pictures... HMMMMM.
Yawn. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: This guy at the bottom probably had more Moor or Berber and Arab in him then Leo Africanus who was an ANDALUSIAN of Muslim religion, which did not equal Moor. Go away Svenska. By the way - how is the weather there in Sweden, seriously. [/QB]
Leo Africanus was born in Granada in Spain in 1493 or 1494 of well educated and affluent Moorish parents.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dana don't let ms thang side tract from Leo Africanus statement For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry.
Let her and Melchior deal with this instead.
brada this twany Moor
doesn't look like this blackamoor:
what's going on?
.
leo Africanus didn't call himself a tawny Moor LYING A__ . That was the name people chose to translate his word for the Tuareg or Africani Bianchi.
Sorry the Spanish Andalusian didn't use the phrase.
So much for your lie. Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
We know what's going on we told you from three pages ago, no one here was making a case for Black only Moors,it's your insistence in trying to remove
Folks of this complexion or reduce them into objects of ridicule or slave only status on both sides of the Med.that we are opposing..this also applies to your narrow featured Carthaginian cherry picked images you like to spam with, despite links available to you that shows both narrow/and broad feature folks sometimes attached to each other and may very well be family members As far as the Phoenicians are concerned they too were Africanized even before they leave the Levant..but such is your hatred of the word black and Blacks folks who are broad featured. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001850 For lurkers go here^ Khart Haddast And Phoenicians
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: This guy at the bottom probably had more Moor or Berber and Arab in him then Leo Africanus who was an ANDALUSIAN of Muslim religion, which did not equal Moor. Go away Svenska. By the way - how is the weather there in Sweden, seriously.
Leo Africanus was born in Granada in Spain in 1493 or 1494 of well educated and affluent Moorish parents. [/QB]
Says who says LYIN ASS? MUSLIM DOES NOT A MOOR MAKE. There were probably more Jewish Moors in Spain at that late date than there were Moors who had in fact been kicked out in to places like Auvergne in France.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Ooooh did i find some Masmuda here? Wonder where this depiction comes from. So funny the guy throwing the rock there.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
dana, Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from what is now Lebanon
a new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 BC period, and by the 1st century it had grown to be the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire, with a peak population of 500,000
dana, who are their descendants of today in North Africa?
.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: All of this does not change the fact that the word Moor means black, and was applied by Southern Europeans to people darker than themselves. This idea that Moor=Berber is unfounder as the people who coined the Term Moor applied it based on appearance not Language.
In the 10th Century the Spanish Christians converted enmasse to Islam and comprised majority of the population of Andalus. The White Slave Market was probably the biggest in An-dalusia esp. among the Elite...
^^^^ A lot of Mixed and Muwalladun Iberians with a few pure blooded Berbers and Moors.
"In the 10th Century the Spanish Christians converted enmasse to Islam and comprised majority of the population of Andalus. The White Slave Market was probably the biggest in An-dalusia esp. among the Elite..."
This was a great point Jari.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Btw it seems even though lite skinned and narrow featured born in Spain he still recognize family
For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: We know what's going on we told you from three pages ago, no one here was making a case for Black only Moors,it's your insistence in trying to remove
wrong, Doug and dana DO argue the Moors and Berbers were exclusively "black"
whatever black means exactly (anything you want it to basically)
notice my question about the half million descendants of Carthage has her lips sealed
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
From what I have read they said no such thing but they can speak for themselves but they did draw on quotes from primary sources about the make up of the Moors..Dana/Doug you have the floor.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-lionansi: Dana/Doug you are on the floor.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
This is where you seem to be confused, and hopefully so. I think you are actually more innocent here than the fraud Malcontent trying to push an agenda.
No one here is claiming the Moors of Spain as applied by the Spanish were all blacks. Wat we are saying is that the Term was originally applied to the Native of North Africa who were black. The Term Evolved during Andalucia to mean Muslims of any color. Andalucia was mainly non black, The Muwalladuns comprised of the Majority of Iberias Muslim population after the 10th Century, as documented by all historical records.
Earilier before the 10th Century the Native Iberian Converts and Half Arab Iberians were called Muwalladuns, Later after their mass conversion they were eventually were labeled as Moors, and Mullades became rare...
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: We know what's going on we told you from three pages ago, no one here was making a case for Black only Moors,it's your insistence in trying to remove
wrong, Doug and dana DO argue the Moors and Berbers were exclusively "black"
whatever black means exactly (anything you want it to basically)
notice my question about the half million descendants of Carthage has her lips sealed
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Lioness, Conventional wisdom is that Leo Africanus was a Spanish scholar who traveled to the Maghreb. What do you know about the Maghrebi names of Leo Africanus' parents, and when they arrived in Spain?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: We know what's going on we told you from three pages ago, no one here was making a case for Black only Moors,it's your insistence in trying to remove
wrong, Doug and dana DO argue the Moors and Berbers were exclusively "black"
whatever black means exactly (anything you want it to basically)
notice my question about the half million descendants of Carthage has her lips sealed
LYIN A__ nobody cares about the Swedish view of blackness. Everybody is black to them. Spanish Mozarabs originally used the word as a synonym for Negro "black" and thus as you can imagine almost none of the paintings you have posted of Muslims in Spain say anything of them being "Moro" a word meaning black to the Mozarabs, even though they do come from a late period.
If as Levi-Provencal says the name Moros in general came to be regarded as any Muslim than that was long after their entrance into Europe and there should also be references to paintings as Moros. I personally have seen little evidence of this yet.
Obviously Moro were conceived at one time as black (black in the sense of AFricans of the Sahel and Shara and sub-Sahara) or people of whatever background that looked a lot like black Africans as it was in the rest of Europe.
This is why their came to be the phrase "Moorish Arabs".
The people that made up the people the Arabic writers called "Berber" peoples were a predominantly near black and black people. The word Moor on the other hand, contrary to what you and others have been applying could not have originally meant Muslim in Spain since it was a synonym for Negro "black" or dark brownish black people in the 12th century, nor did it mean Berber or Arab.
Of course now the custom in other parts of Spain is to dress up as Middle Easterners of all types. The older version of the Moros is probably considered outdated.
"Moros y cristianos is Spanish for Moors and Christians, and it refers to the dark black beans against the whiteness of the rice."
The MODERN tradition of dressing up as AFricans to play Moros and Christianos for a festival in Spain is obviously derived from somewhere.. My guess is these are the Christians.
That's your argument that there was some fair-skinned Berber tribe. All I have been saying is someone needs to post a Berber clan of the Medieval period of whatever group that were described as fair in color. Why is that so difficult?
I am sure someone made mention of these white or fair in color Masmuda, Kitama, Hawara, Lamtuna, tribes somewhere. So since someone has obviously discovered them its a simple task; please address it.
Just remember, Vandal tribes don't count. neither do Romans or half Romans.
There were many Muslims in Spain that were not black. Yes I agree.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .
dana, Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from what is now Lebanon
a new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 BC period, and by the 1st century it had grown to be the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire, with a peak population of 500,000
dana, who are their descendants of today in North Africa?
.
dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana danadana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .
dana, Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from what is now Lebanon
a new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 BC period, and by the 1st century it had grown to be the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire, with a peak population of 500,000
dana, who are their descendants of today in North Africa?
.
dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana danadana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana dana
I doubt whether there is any one group of purely Carthaginian descent left in Africa LYIN -A__. Look at the various people who have occupied Carthage.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Lioness, Conventional wisdom is that Leo Africanus was a Spanish scholar who traveled to the Maghreb. What do you know about the Maghrebi names of Leo Africanus' parents, and when they arrived in Spain?
In 1600 John Pory translated A Geographical Historie of Africa by Leo Africanus
there are hundreds of books which say the Leo Africanus was a Moor. I am unaware of any published dispute about this. and why would it be made up?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Brada Anansi
Whats to refute?? that Moors mostly Black,and Eastern Islamic folks(mostly lite skinned) of all sorts including Turks were at war with mostly White and Christian Europeans?(Christian Nubians and Ethiopians) being the exception??
What's to refute?? That the Moors were not MOSTLY Black. That's what. If such were the case you expect to see more Blacks in the depictions. And there were not many Turks involved in Moorish Spain, sonny. They came later and took over many Moorish terrirtories.
Bottom line most of the North Africans looked just like the North Africans Today. I'll say it again. Most of the North Africans looked just like the North Africans Today! Historical reports actually mention that Black troops were brought in from Senegal and Mali..meaning the Berbers were not Black.
Just to let you know Arabicized people did not general depict the human beings in artistry. Did you notice that Garrig. That is why you see a lot of artwork but little self-depiction of Muslims during the earlier periods.
There is apparently a Middle Eastern looking guy on the Alhambra is said to have been painted a few centuries later than the Moorish period of rule there.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Lioness, Conventional wisdom is that Leo Africanus was a Spanish scholar who traveled to the Maghreb. What do you know about the Maghrebi names of Leo Africanus' parents, and when they arrived in Spain?
In 1600 John Pory translated A Geographical Historie of Africa by Leo Africanus
there are hundreds of books which say the Leo Africanus was a Moor. I am unaware of any published dispute about this. and why would it be made up?
By that time the 1600s Muslims from Andalusia and North Africa - and in fact not just North Africa - were called Moors by the English, whether white Moors or tawny Moors or Moors or blackamoors. Probably by the Spaniards at that time too.
Many people in America from AFrica were called Moors or Turks too because they were Muslim. The name Turk a thousand years ago however didn't mean Muslim and neither did Moor. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: [qb] .
dana, Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from what is now Lebanon
a new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 BC period, and by the 1st century it had grown to be the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire, with a peak population of 500,000
dana, who are their descendants of today in North Africa?
.
I doubt whether there is any one group of purely Carthaginian descent left in Africa LYIN -A__. Look at the various people who have occupied Carthage.
dana that's not the question. There were a half million in Carthage. First Phoenicians, then Romans came in, later the Arabs. -a major urban centre that has existed for nearly 3,000 years ! These people probably all mixed with one another and local indigenous nomadic tribes. What was the size of indigenous tribes at the time? Nobody knows. Carthage was a permanent settlement. Successive Muslim dynasties ruled Tunisia (Ifriqiya at the time) with occasional instabilities caused mainly by Berber rebellions;[citation needed] of these reigns we can cite the Aghlabids (800–900) and Fatimids (909–972). After conquering Cairo, Fatimids abandoned North Africa to the local Zirids (Tunisia and parts of Eastern Algera, 972–1148) and Hammadid (Central and eastern Algeria, 1015–1152)
If you want to call only people who were indigenous Africans "Berber" fine. But the people that get called Berber today are a composite of all of these other people. So you can't pin your racial concept of fake Berbers all on white slaves of the 16th century.
There was already a 3,000 year old culture there of non-Africans.
You just erase that from history. And jari.
Trying to play like light skinned Berbers are much more recent.
Call them fake Berbers if you like but they go back pretty far. Have fun telling them they are not really Berbers.
.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: [qb] .
dana, Carthage was founded by Phoenician colonists from what is now Lebanon
a new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 BC period, and by the 1st century it had grown to be the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire, with a peak population of 500,000
dana, who are their descendants of today in North Africa?
.
I doubt whether there is any one group of purely Carthaginian descent left in Africa LYIN -A__. Look at the various people who have occupied Carthage.
dana that's not the question. There were a half million in Carthage. First Phoenicians, then Romans came in, later the Arabs. -a major urban centre that has existed for nearly 3,000 These people probably all mixed with one another and local indigenous nomadic tribes. What was the size of indigenous tribes at the time? Nobody knows. Carthage was a permanent settlement. Successive Muslim dynasties ruled Tunisia (Ifriqiya at the time) with occasional instabilities caused mainly by Berber rebellions;[citation needed] of these reigns we can cite the Aghlabids (800–900) and Fatimids (909–972). After conquering Cairo, Fatimids abandoned North Africa to the local Zirids (Tunisia and parts of Eastern Algera, 972–1148) and Hammadid (Central and eastern Algeria, 1015–1152)
If you want to call only people who were indigenous Africans "Berber" fine. But the people that get called Berber today are a composite of all of these other people. So you can't pin your racial concept of fake Berbers all on white slaves of the 16th century.
There was already a 3,000 year old culture there of non-Africans.
You just erase that from history. And jari.
Trying to play like light skinned Berbers are much more recent.
Call them fake Berbers if you like but they go back pretty far. Have fun telling them they are not really Berbers.
.
Whose "them" genius most Berber tribes are dark in color. Did you forget that. Don't change the subject LYIN A__ . lol! If you want to make them into fake Berbers go right ahead. Anyone has a right to call themselves, whatever they want. I'm not trying to play anything. Almost all North Africans have African blood, but you can't name me an early tribe of fair-skinned Berbers. If you can I will gladly accept it.
in answere to your other question about calling someone fake.What you mean like the way fair-skinned Berber-speakers accept the fact that the original Berbers were Afro-Asiatics and other Africans described as black or dark-skinned and unrelated to EUROPEANS.
LOL!. like the way they say the Tuareg are dark because they are mixed with African slaves.
Not interested - LYING.
I have more integrity than that. I am just trying to rectify the heritage of the people who were called Berbers 1000 years ago. And, like I said before, Your IDIOCY , when I tell my son where his ancient Kabyle ancestors come from I tell him what his great grandfather told his father - FROM SICILY! Because thats how many Roman and Greek- related and Balkan peoples came into Africa early on. GET IT!
I could care less what new identity "Berber" nationalists in coastal N.AFrica have been trying to concoct for themselves to counter Arab insinuations, with the help of some Iberian geneticists interested in claiming they were the ancient indigenous North Africans. Unfortunately, there is African history to attend to and preserve. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
lioness makes up things just to "score points", which of course, is not exactly news. The fictitious "Maghrebi" parents of Leo Africanus happens to be one of them.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
I have more integrity than that. I am just trying to rectify the heritage of the people who were called Berbers 1000 years ago. And, like I said before, Your IDIOCY , when I tell my son where his ancient Kabyle ancestors come from I tell him what his great grandfather told his father - FROM SICILY! Because thats how many Roman and Greek- related and Balkan peoples came into Africa early on. GET IT!
No I can't tell if your being facetious or not. Do you tell your son this or are you joking? Somebody in Kabylia might have a great grandfather that was born in Sicily or they might have roots going back to Romans who were around there in 500 BC . Or they might have roots with indigenous nomadic people. Or they might have roots with Vandals, Sea people, the list goes on. Or they might be a mixture of many things. What's wrong with that? Why worry about it the place has been mixed since before Christ. maybe you don't like his poppa anymore?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: lioness makes up things just to "score points", which of course, is not exactly news. The fictitious "Maghrebi" parents of Leo Africanus happens to be one of them.
It's not me it's hundreds of books say he was a Moor. Moors had been living in Granada for hundreds of years before Leo was born. In his book
The number of books where they say he was not a Moor is zero as far as I know.
Basically you are looking at the portrait of him with relativley light skin and determining such a person impossible to be a Moor.
There is no hard definition of a Moor. If he had dark skin and an afro you never would have questioned it. The painting by Piombro is thought to be a portrait of Leo Africanus but it is not certain. Happy now? Now we can go back to him being a Moor until proven otherwise?
.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: There is no hard definition of a Moor.
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I am still waiting for someone to show how paintings of Almoravids and Almohads from the medieval period. And more importantly, I am looking for proof that they represent images of indigenous Berber African groups that made up the Almoravid and Almohad armies versus Spanish, Goth, Slave(Slavic) and Arab people.
Still waiting.
As for the rest of the nonsense, it is obvious that some people have no ability to comprehend reality. Whether the Spanish and other Europeans always used the term Moor as a reference to black people or not is irrelevant. The point first and foremost is that since time immemorial blacks have been a substantial part of the populations of North West Africa and it is from them and their black skin that the root of the word Moor derives. But the word is not something that has ever been used as pejorative by the people of North Africa. And it does not change the fact that throughout history black people have been the natives of the region. No amount of trying to focus on which people in a European country of mixed origins (Islamic Spain) were put under this banner will change the actual historic facts about North West Africa which is not a European land. Yes, there has been mixing on both sides of the straight of Gibraltar, but pretending that black Africans are not and were not natives of North West Africa prior to, during and after Islamic Spain is pure absolute nonsense.
So again, I am still waiting for proof that these images represent full blood Africans from North West Africa among whom arose the Almohads and Almoravids. Not mixed Spanish, North Africans, Not European converts under their banner, not Christians and not Arabs or Syrians.
And I am still looking for evidence that these blacks on the flag of Aragon are not considered Moors:
Oh and by the way, to reinforce what I have been saying about the constant switching sides and shifting allegiances within Spain during the Islamic period and the resistance faced by the African Almoravids and Almohads, just read the chronicle of El-Cid:
In fact, if you read the accounts of many battles, the Muslim armies were separated into contingents based on ethnic make up: Almoravids, Arabs, local Spanish Muslims. This shows you just how divided the situation was in Andalus and the fact that the Africans were only a small part of a larger picture.
quote: Dissention broke out between the original conquerors and the Moors fom Africa. P. xxv. (11.) A distinction was always made between the Arabian conquerors, and the Africans who came over to share in what the others had won. This distinction, says Moret, siempre fue de grandissima conveniencia a los Reyes Christianas. T. 1. P. 299.
But it was the Africans who did the conquering and the Arabs then came to take over. This is documented from day 1.
And this:
quote: And proceeding with his conquests he laid siege to the city of Viseu, that he might take vengeance for the death of King Don Alfonso, his wife's father, who had been slain before in that city. But the people of Viseu, as they lived with this fearbefore their eyes, had fortified their city well, and stored it abundantly with all things needful, and moreover, they put their trust in their Alcayde (Caid), who was an African, by name Cid Alafum, a man tried in arms. He encouraged them, saying that the city could not bp taken in ten years, by a greater power than the Christians ; and there were many good arbalisters in the city, who shot so strong; that neither shield nor armour availed against them in quarrels. King Don Ferrando therefore ordered mantles to be made, and also pavaises to protect his people; and moreover he enjoined them to fasten boards upon their shields, so that the quarrels from the cross-bows might not pierce through. And he continued for eighteen days to combat the city, keeping such good watch, thatneither could they within receive help from without, nor themselves issue forth ; and on the eighteenth day, which Avas the Vesper of St. Peter's, he won the city by force of arms ; and few were they avIio escaped from the sword of the conquerors, except those who retreated with Alafum into the castle. And on the following day at the hour of tierce they also came to terms, and yielded themselves to his mercy, saving their lives. In this manner was Viseu recovered by the Christians, and never after did that city fall into the hands of the barbarians.
Looking at North Africa the Phoenicians colonized much of North Africa including Carthage and parts of present day Morocco (including Chellah, Mogador and Volubilis The Carthaginians were of Phoenician origin, and the Pheonicians were Caananites of areas corresponding to modern day Lebanon.
At it's peak Carthage had a half million people.
Numidia was much smaller in population. The name Numidia was first applied by Polybius and other historians during the third century BC to indicate the Roman territory west of Carthage, including the entire north of Algeria as far as the river Mulucha (Muluya), about 100 miles west of Oran. The Numidians were conceived of as two great nomadic tribal groups: the Massylii in eastern Numidia, and the Masaesyli in the west.
The chief town ia Numidia was Cirta (the modern Costantina, orConstant'.noh), which was the principal residence of Syphax, Masinissa, Micipsa, and Juba. [costantina.] Hippo Regius, the second town in the province, was situated near the coast about a mile and a half south of Bona. [bona.] It was founded by the Phoenicians (sallust, Jugurthine War ),
Gaius Sallustius Crispus, generally known simply as Sallust, (86 BC – 35 BC), a Roman historian
excerpt, The Jugurthine War By Sallust:
And who were the Numidians? The kingdom of Numidia, we have already seen, was the creation of Rome. Its people was made up of many tribes that roamed along the coast of Northern Africa. To the Sicilian Greeks they owed their name of Numidians, that is to say, nomads, or rovers. Split up into many tribes, the Massyli, the Massaesyli, the Maxyes, the Gyzantes, and others, they were nevertheless readily blended into one people, when brought under one sceptre. For they were all of one race, and their sense of a common origin was so deep, that to-day their descendants, from Tangiers, in Morocco, to the heart of the Sahara, call themselves by what is in truth the same name. For the name Amdzigh in Morocco is the same as Imoshagh in the great desert, and both are but modifications of Maxyes, the name of a tribe found in antiquity near Carthage, and of that of the Mazici, who dwelled on the coast of Manetania. By the Europeans all these people are called Berbers, and this name includes alike the Amdziyh or Shulu in Morocco, the Kdbyles in Algeria, Tunis, and Tripoli, the Tibboos between Fezzan and Egypt, and the Tudregs or Imoshaghs in the Sahara. Since the days of Jugurtha and Bocchus, the north of Africa has been successively overrun by Roman, Vandal, and Arab, and still to-day, the best French authorities ell us, two thirds of the people in Morocco and one half of the people of Algeria are Berbers by extraction. What, then, are the physical characters of the Berber race? To many the name African suggests dark skin and eyes and crisp hair. But the ancient Numidian, and his descendant, the modern Kabyle, as well as the Moor, have very little in common with the negro type. C. Tissot, in his "Geography of the Old Roman Province of Africa," tells us that one third of the Moroccans and two thirds of the
Kifs of Tangiers have blue eyes and blond or brown hair; that is to say, the blond type prevails in Morocco, at least to the same extent as in Southern Germany. The same statement is made of the people of great Kabylia—i. e., of Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli. The physical peculiarities of the Numidians and their cognate peoples, therefore, associate them with the Caucasian or Mediterranean race. If it be asked to which branch of the Caucasian race they belong, the ethnologist tells us that they stand nearer to the Indo-Europeans than to the Semibes. This is shown, not only by the blond hair and blue eyes so often found among them, but by their tali, lithe forms, their powerful limbs, their lively and emotional temperaments, the respect they pay to women, their tendency to monogamy and to a settled mode of life. But let us not be hasty. While there are strong reasons to class the modern Berber, and therefore the ancient Numidian, with the IndoEuropeans, it would be rash to follow General Faidherbe, perhaps the best authority on North African ethnography, in tracing him to the ancestral Celt. There are important facts that should lead us to hesitate. By the ancient geographers the Numidians and Moors are associated with the Libyans. The original Libyans lived far to the east of Numidia, and, according to the Egyptian records, they extended their wanderings from Lake Tritonis to the Canopic branch of the Nile. The name occurs as early as the fourth dynasty, but the people then so called are represented as gray or dark brown, while the later Libyans are blond and blue-eyed. Whatever be the explanation of this change, so much is certain that the modern Amazigh and Imdshagh speak a language radically the same as that of the descendants of the Libyans; nay—a still more remarkable fact—the wild Tuaregs of the Sahara speak an idiom undoubtedly and closely allied with the language of the Pharaohs. How to reconcile, in a satisfactory manner, these two apparently contradictory sets of facts—the one pointing to Europe as the primitive home of the Berber races, the other suggesting that they are relatives of the Hamitic Egyptians—is, at present, an unsolved problem. At all events, when thinking of Jugurtha and his hordes, we must conceive them not as swarthy, prognathous, crisp-haired negroes, the peers in civilization of the modern Ashantee or Dahomeyan, nor yet as ever roaming, ever unsettled Beduin Arabs, but as a blued-eyed, blond-haired race, strong and active alike in body and mind, a monogamist by inclination, and a rover, not so much by choice as by the force of his surroundings, especially of an unpropitious country. Hence we find that even previous to the establishment of the Numidian kingdom, the Massyli had a stronghold, Cirta, as their rivals, the Massaesyli, possessed the fortress called Siga. Hence, too, encouraged by Masinissa and his successors, the Numidians soon became skilled farmers, who, during the imperial period, sent Rome no small part of its annual food-supplies. A brief sketch of the Numidian line of kings will enable us to understand better the position of Jugurtha, and conclude our notice of the kingdom of Numidia. Masinissa, as already stated, was the son of Gala, the chief of the Massyli, who dwelt in the eastern part of what is now called Algeria. Gala and his son appear for the first time in history as the allies of Carthage in the second Punic war. Brought up at Carthage, and taught the science of war in the school of her best generals, Masinissa united with the rude valor and the cunning of the nomad chief a masterful knowledge of civilized warfare.
Take from this what you will but what other record is there what other archaelogical evidence is there for a substancial indigenous dark skinned African popualtion living in the region?
In the 2,000 year old record Masinissa who was the first king of the Numidians is not described by Sallust as a dark skinned "negro". The Moors are derived from the Numidians. I assume what happened is when Carthage and Numidia were established Tuaregs, nomadic people became part of it.
The Tuareg are probably descended from ancient Saharan peoples described by Herodotus.[ He described the ancient Libyan people of the kingdom of the Garamantes, of which archaeological evidence is found in the ruins of Germa.
The Garamantes were probably present as tribal people in the Fezzan by 1000 BC. They appear in the written record for the first time in the 5th century BC. According to Herodotus, they were "a very great nation" who herded cattle, farmed dates, and hunted the "Ethiopian Troglodytes", or "cave-dwellers" who lived in the desert, from four-horse chariots.Roman depictions describe them as bearing ritual scars and tattoos. Tacitus wrote that they assisted the rebel Tacfarinas and raided Roman coastal settlements. According to Pliny the Elder, Romans eventually grew tired of Garamantian raiding and Lucius Cornelius Balbus captured 15 of their settlements in 19 BC.
A Garamantian chariot on a rock painting from Tina Nivin.
Inside one of the "royal tombs" of Al-Hatia (Museum of Jarmah)
According to Lhote the Garamantes are the ancestors of the present Tuaregs. Their kingdom stretched obliquely across the Sahara, from Tripolitania to the great bend of the Niger. West of it lived other peoples, the ancestors of the Maurs; east and south east of Garama, in Fezzan and Tibesti, lived people whom Herodotus calls the Ethiopian troglodytes The Garamantes, Herodotus relates, used to pursue them in the desert on their chariots, because Ethiopians can run faster than any other man. Lhote translates thus the relevant passage: "The Garamantes pursue the Ethiopian troglodytes on chariots drawn by four horses".Still according to Lhote, the Ethiopian troglodytes of Herodotus are the ancestors of the Tebu, who live now in Fezzan and Tibesti.
The Tubu ("Rock People;"also written Tibu, Tibbu, Tebu, Tubu, Tebou, are an ethnic group that live mainly in northern Chad, but also in Libya, Niger and Sudan.
In theTaureg (Touareg) culture, which did use in the past of slaves for their commerce and for their own use, light skinned people ruled over the dark skinned ones. Slaves were sold to magrebi arabs, and enslaved by touareg themselves to do the agricultural tasks, labor that touareg culture despised in favor of commercial tasks. Also it is said that ancestral hostility between touareg and toubou people come from the touareg raids upon toubou women, to sell them to magreb harems.
Berber people is originary from the northern occidental african coast; they were displaced to southern - and desertic - lands when the arabian people invaded northern Africa.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is the 2nd time at trying to pull this fast one. The first was in a post ignored by all. Now it's in a popular audienced thread.
The difference between providing a quote as a cited reference and the scissors and paste method is the intent of the provider. Is it corrobative evidence or an opportunistic lie?
Conclusive proof emasculated Lion is a liar.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: (sallust, Jugurthine War ),
Gaius Sallustius Crispus, generally known simply as Sallust, (86 BC – 35 BC), a Roman historian
excerpt, The Jugurthine War By Sallust: [CAN BE READ IN THE ABOVE POST]
What juicy idiot believes Sallust wrote that? The poster knew Herbermann wrote that passage. By posting it "she" completely loses credibility.
Woe betide the fool who seriously takes into their consideration anything this whelp mews
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7:
Are you going to show us where those red bearded Eurasitic Kurds or whatever they are you posted are called MOORS or Moro
The Hall of the Kings was named after the ten enigmatic individuals whose figures are illustrated on the dome above the main bedchamber. For many years the figures were incorrectly thought to depict leading members of the Nasrid dynasty; till the 19th century the chamber was known as the Hall of Justice owing to the fact that the figures were thought to be courtroom judges.
Nevertheless, it is generally understood that the scene is a realistic depiction of an activity that commonly took place there: a meeting of dignitaries in the presence of the Sultan or leading members of the Court.
The figures, whose features depict venerable westerners, are seen seated in traditional fashion and gesturing while having a lively conversation. They are ceremoniously dressed, bearing swords and wearing belts and Nasrid style turbans.
In fairness, a few Nasrid rulers were predominately Frankish in blood and sensitive of it they dyed at least their beards to black. Muslim "Spain" was diverse and cosmopolitan in many ways.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And Al Tukruri or whatever his name is, is full of ish. There is definetely words with the consonants MHR or MGR to mean West in Afro- Asiatic languages. Think Maghreb.
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the
1 - author, 2 - lexicon, and 3 - page number
in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.
m-h-r ≠ m-g-r
m-g-r ≠ west
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Basically you are looking at the portrait of him with relativley light skin and determining such a person impossible to be a Moor.
Actually, I'm basing my understanding on conventional wisdom that he was Spanish Muslim.
I've never come across any identification of any "Maghrebi" parents he supposedly had. This is where I looked to you, since you made the case for it, but your only defense is that I'm not convinced about your allegation because of the guy's skin color and that you are merely parroting people who write books about Africanus. Can you honestly say that I'm at fault here, and not you?
quote: There is no hard definition of a Moor.
Moor was Greco-Roman references to dark skinned folks of North Africa. Unsurprisingly so, because it originally meant "dark" (see etymology, Greek origin).
So, the claim that there is no hard definition of "Moor" is ungrounded.
Yes, the significance of the original definition is a big deal. Testament to this, is that you'll find no pre-11th century references to people from the Arabian plate or to European natives as "Moors", unless I'm mistaken. If I am, I am sure you'll correct me, wouldn't you?
quote: If he had dark skin and an afro you never would have questioned it.
Wouldn't you too? For the reason that native Spanish people are generally lighter than Africans with no "northern" ancestry from outside the continent and have less curly hair. If you saw a Black Brit, would you be skeptical of his recent African ancestry, if you were told so?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Gaius Sallustius Crispus, generally known simply as Sallust, (86 BC – 35 BC), a Roman historian
excerpt, The Jugurthine War By Sallust: [/b][CAN BE READ IN THE ABOVE POST]
What juicy idiot believes Sallust wrote that? The poster knew Herbermann wrote that passage. By posting it "she" completely loses credibility.
Woe betide the fool who seriously takes into their consideration anything this whelp mews[/QUOTE]
alTakruri's right I mislabeled the introduction by Herbermann (1886) as Sallust
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote: Originally posted by alTakruri:
Gaius Sallustius Crispus, generally known simply as Sallust, (86 BC – 35 BC), a Roman historian
excerpt, The Jugurthine War By Sallust: [CAN BE READ IN THE ABOVE POST]What juicy idiot believes Sallust wrote that? The poster knew Herbermann wrote that passage. By posting it "she" completely loses credibility.
Woe betide the fool who seriously takes into their consideration anything this whelp mews
alTakruri's right I mislabeled the introduction by Herbermann (1886) as Sallust.
Here's an actual Enlgish translation of a Sallust quote, if I'm not mistaken:
XVIII. Africa , then, was originally occupied by the Getulians and Libyans,[66] rude and uncivilized tribes, who subsisted on the flesh of wild animals, or, like cattle, on the herbage of the soil. They were controlled neither by customs, laws, nor the authority of any ruler; they wandered about, without fixed habitations, and slept in the abodes to which night drove them. But after Hercules, as the Africans think, perished in Spain, his army, which was composed of various nations,[67] having lost its leader, and many candidates severally claiming the command of it, was speedily dispersed. Of its constituent troops, the Medes, Persians, and Armenians,[68] having sailed over into Africa, occupied the parts nearest to our sea.[69] The Persians, however, settled more toward the ocean,[70] and used the inverted keels of their vessels for huts, there being no wood in the country, and no opportunity of obtaining it, either by purchase or barter, from the Spaniards; for a wide sea, and an unknown tongue, were barriers to all intercourse. These, by degrees, formed intermarriages with the Getulians; and because, from constantly trying different soils, they were perpetually shifting their abodes, they called themselves NUMIDIANS.[71] And to this day the huts of the Numidian boors, which they call mapalia, are of an oblong shape, with curved roofs; resembling the hulls of ships.
The Medes and Armenians connected themselves with the Libyans, who dwelled near the African sea; while the Getulians lay more to the sun,[72] not far from the torrid heats; and these soon built themselves towns,[73] as, being separated from Spain only by a strait, they proceeded to open an intercourse with its inhabitants. The name of Medes the Libyans gradually corrupted, changing it, in their barbarous tongue, into Moors.[74]
Of the Persians[75]the power rapidly increased; and at length, the children, through excess of population, separating from the parents, they took possession, under the name of Numidians, of those regions bordering on Carthage which are now called Numidia. process of time, the two parties,[76] each assisting the other, reduced the neighboring tribes, by force or fear, under their sway; but those who had spread toward our sea, made the greater conquests: for the Lybians are less warlike than the Getulians[77] At last nearly all lower Africa[78] was occupied by the Numidians; and all the conquered tribes were merged in the nation and name of their conquerors.
XIX. At a later period, the Phoenicians, some of whom wished to lessen their numbers at home, and others, ambitious of empire, engaged the populace, and such as were eager for change, to follow them, founded Hippo,[79] Adrumetum, Leptis,[80] and other cities, on the sea-coast; which, soon growing powerful, became partly a support, and partly an honor, to their parent state. Of Carthage I think it better to be silent, than to say but little; especially as time bids me hasten to other matters.
Next to the Catabathmos,[81] then, which divides Egypt from Africa, the first city along the sea-coast[82] is Cyrene, a colony of Theraeans;[83] after which are the two Syrtes,[84] with Leptis[85] between them; then the Altars of the Philaeni,[86] which the Carthaginians considered the boundary of their dominion on the side of Egypt; beyond these are the other Punic towns. The other regions, as far as Mauretania, the Numidians occupy; the Moors are nearest to Spain. To the south of Numidia,[87] as we are informed, are the Getulians, of whom some live in huts, and others lead a vagrant and less civilized life; beyond these are the Ethiopians; and further on, regions parched by the heat of the sun.
If I'm reading this right Sallust is calling the Numidians a name Persians called themselves. Has anybody on ES pointed this out before? Is it true I don't know.
I don't know what to make of this Persian claim, it corresponds to nothing else I read. Who the hell were these Numidians anyway ???
Sallust also distinguishes Moors from Numidians while later writers often treat the Moors as being derived form Numidians.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
Basically you are looking at the portrait of him with relativley light skin and determining such a person impossible to be a Moor.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:,
I'm basing my understanding on conventional wisdom that he was Spanish Muslim.
But these books describe him as a Moor who was also a Spanish Muslim, meaning he was born in Spain to Moorish parents who had settled in Spain, Moors who had settled in Spain for a few hundred years perhaps.
quote: Originally posted by The Explorer:
I've never come across any identification of any "Maghrebi" parents he supposedly had. This is where I looked to you, since you made the case for it, but your only defense is that I'm not convinced about your allegation because of the guy's skin color and that you are merely parroting people who write books about Africanus. Can you honestly say that I'm at fault here, and not you?
John Pory on the title page of the 1600 translation of Leo's book introduces him as a Moor. But another author says he used the term loosly as you are suggesting to mean practically any Muslim citizen of Spain Moor or not Moor. You are correct that there is no solid evidence other than this claim.
But what is a Moor?
quote: Originally posted by the lioness:
There is no hard definition of a Moor.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Moor was Greco-Roman references to dark skinned folks of North Africa. Unsurprisingly so, because it originally meant "dark" (see etymology, Greek origin).
So, the claim that there is no hard definition of "Moor" is ungrounded.
Yes, the significance of the original definition is a big deal. Testament to this, is that you'll find no pre-11th century references to people from the Arabian plate or to European natives as "Moors", unless I'm mistaken. If I am, I am sure you'll correct me, wouldn't you?
Like I said there is no hard definition, "dark skinned" is relative. And, the definition we are dealing with is the one that was current at the time of the conquest of Iberia. Also ther were Phoenicians and Sea people in North Africa since ancient times, Carthage etc.
As per dark skinned this Palestinian for example:
^^^not a native of Africa but he has dark skin.
There are numerous European paintings that have people called "Moors" in them.
Here is one example:
Like the Palestinian man above the people called Moors in the painting have dark skin like the Palestinian so they fit the definition.
I believe the people who conquered Iberia and established what is called Moorish Spain were comprised of several types of dark skinned persons including people called Moors in the painting above as well as darker skinned dark skinned indigenous Africans such as are depicted by Alfonso X. Although Doug is right that his illustrations don't specify exactly who is Almohad. The Almohad dynasty originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribe of the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Berbers are Nomadic and their phenotype varies more than settled populations. They integrate people from distant areas.
Suppose this is true it was a mixture of different types people, varying shades of dark skinned people of Eurasian ancestry (who had large settlements in N. Africa for 3,000 years) as well as indigenous Africans. (After 3,000 years some writers will also refer to such Eurasians as indigenous, right or wrong) (Did every area in the Altlas mountains already have indigenous Africans inhabitants or were some areas settled by some Eurasians unihabited- no one knows, if so they would be the first people to live there, "indengous", in that sense as perhaps analagous to the American Indians - who were Asians originally but now considered "indigenous")
So either the dark skinned conquerers of Iberia both Eurasian and fully indigenous Africans as depicted in Alfonso's armies and all should be called Moors including the type of Moors depicted in European paintings of St. Peter ( dark skinned, yes, but not as dark as Ethiopians, darker, but they on the other hand, not of littoral North Africa) Either all of these people are Moors.
If not only some of them are Moors, the ones with both dark skin and tightly coiled hair of purely African descent, but then if the invading armies were comprised of other folks, their allies, then perhaps it is a misnomer to call Al-Alandalus " "Moorish Spain/Portgugal" then more properly "Muslim Spain"
A third possibilty if keeping to a definition that people who look like the Palesinian above cannot be Moors only people who might have the same complexion (or darker) that are strictly African, ancestors never having set foot in Eurasia prior except possibly to visit. The third possibility is that it was 99% these people who took over Iberia. But it doesn't seem reasonable that they would be able to defeat the Christian armies and then shortly after be taken over by a non-African leadership, Umayyad Caliphs and other Arab tribes to follow. What is the Moorish contribution then to Muslim Spain? Was it only military?
.
Posted by Horus' (Member # 15917) on :
You send that cont. at me again with your subliminals I'll be whooping both your asses ya heard."
^ I just got that message from lurker user on this forum. This is a wiered forum...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.
Note the definition of Mauri, from Mauros, where the regions called Mauretania got their name in this entry of Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography.
To further see mauros applies to people who are black
First insert the word Μαύρος into the GOOGLE translator
Now set the translator to English -> Greek Insert the word black Insert the word negro Insert the word nigger
Finally set the translator to Greek -> English Insert the word αράπης
Up at least until the mid 6th century CE the Maurs were still known as blacks to the literate Syrian, Greek, and Roman readership. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired. Procopius of Caesarea History of the Wars c. 550 CE Book IV xiii.29 [insert procopius qoute here]
If the larger number of people there in Mauretania at some time became other than black they must have been infused with large doses from non-blacks i.e., fleeing Muslims from the new nation of Isabella's Spain, various enslaved Europeans, Balkans, etc. and other sources.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
More examples of the Asian/African precursors to "European" crowns:
Similar crowns can be found in India and Central Asia in the same time period.
It is from this ancient pattern of representing crowns with flowers that you get the basis for the design of the fleur-de-lis and "European" style crowns.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
whelp. lol!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I've asked the moderators to delete the earlier post. Sorry for the earlier format skew let me try it again.
Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.
Note the definition of Mauri, from Mauros, where the regions called Mauretania got their name in this entry of Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography.
To further see mauros applies to people who are black
First insert the word Μαύρος into the GOOGLE translator
Now set the translator to English -> Greek Insert the word black Insert the word negro Insert the word nigger
Finally set the translator to Greek -> English Insert the word αράπης
Up at least until the mid 6th century CE the Maurs were still known as blacks to the literate Syrian, Greek, and Roman readership whose natives were largely off white and dark haired. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired. Procopius of Caesarea History of the Wars c. 550 CE Book IV xiii.29
If the larger number of people there in Mauretania at some time became other than black they must have been infused with large doses from non-blacks i.e., fleeing Muslims from the new nation of Isabella's Spain, various enslaved Europeans, Balkans, etc. and other sources.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ Yes Altakruri, It is a documented fact that majority of the Muslim Population were non Blacks esp. the converts called "Muwalladun" Before the 10th Century. Later these people would be labeled under the term "Moros" so by the time of the Reconquista, the Era where the Images Lioness and Mathilda love to post as proof of Eurasian Moors, the term more had evolved to include non Blacks, Mulattos and pure Spanish Muslims(Muwalladun)..
This would help explain why we have descriptions of "White" Moors in Granda in 1526 less than what 30 or 40 give or take years after the Reconqista of Granda in 1492..
quote: Dr. Lange, in his diary, wrote this interesting story:
"The capital of the kingdom of Granada is the city of the same name that rises above the hills on which is built so that no height opposition outside its walls can dominate its surroundings. Granada is almost twice that Nuremberg and in its surrounding mountains, even in the hottest days of the year, abundant snow, its inhabitants used to cool the wine. The city of Granada is just a dozen miles from the Mediterranean. You can, therefore, to arrive to Africa in three days, and four others can reach the western boundary of the world. In the past, belonged to the Moorish Granada, had two kings during the wars of his later years and six years was besieged by King Ferdinand, whose army built to their doors to the small town dede Santa Fe, and whose wife, Isabel , conquered the seventh year for our faith sacrosanct.
Continue: half the population are white Moors, whose wives and daughters wear white pants sailor pants (almost identical to those used by shepherds in Germany),(la mitad de la población son moros blancos, cuyas mujeres e hijas visten blancos pantalones de marinero calzones (casi idénticos a los que en Alemania usan los pastores) and also wear clothing that also white cover from the face to the calves, but, more importantly, they cover their faces. In order to be allowed to freely use this kind of attire, each must pay an annual tax to the emperor of a duchy. Those who do not want to enter the church on Sundays have to pay the priest a year real. Also in the hillsides of the city there are still deep caves to visit, in which a contingent of Christian captives (including a bishop) were locked at night and which are rented by day to make us work in all sorts of crafts.
And were: the aforementioned city reconquered the day of San Juan and for this reason every year the nobles and bourgeois dress up that day of Moors and Turks bearing shields and spears and celebrate a kind of burlesque profession that runs throughout the city at dawn . Later in broad daylight and held a mock victory. There is loose then, six or seven bulls in the market place for people to run and the sugar. Following comes the cavalry followed, dressed in costumes Moors and Turks, divided into two camps. They shoot each other complex and large muskets, loaded only with gunpowder saved, be pursued in all directions, pretending great surprises, now advancing, now receding and graceful attitudes adopted in the meantime.
We saw on the feast of San Juan Bautista and the Emperor himself participated in these games in Granada, in the presence of the Empress and a host of Portuguese bridesmaids. That same day three men were fatally injured by the bulls, and an old horse, wounded accidentally shot in the head, had to be finished there.
He continues: they are forbidden to those mentioned Moors (with severe penalties) the use of weapons, both in the field, and their houses, except a small knife to cut bread and another to puncture the meat (do not eat meat hunting and all that consumed comes from animals caged, tied enclosed in fences). And to this end the judges will make their home record twice a month.
Also, on our last day of stay in Granada invited the emperor to preside over my Lord with him, in a garden at the foot of the hill of the Alhambra, a Moorish show. Adorned with beautiful pearls and precious stones in necks, ears and arms, and dressed (almost as deacons for the Mass) according to the customs of his land, danced to the sound of flutes, violas and drums, after which three women fifty years and another that fell was about forty and sang while alive and amazing pagan rhythms, while the others clapped rhythmic shouting happily.
After the dance, some berries climbed to the top of the hill and danced on a tightrope stretched between two locations, and then opened her legs with a brazen, as he faces the Emperor, screaming in his native tongue: "Everyone who live here can get to heaven. "
After this performance was given to drinking water.
Also: young women with henna Castilla berries get their nails with a bright orange (they figure) gives a special attraction. In my opinion makes them resemble our miserable tanning is Nuremberg. Also considered shameful for a girl to take even one sip of wine. Therefore, all of water.In drink that city of Granada make all kinds of silk garments, but always black, indelible ink for lack of other colors and are slightly more expensive than in Germany, with the notable exception of Taffeta double, which here is very beautiful. Pearls are also cheap here.
There are also magnificent vineyards and a large winery near the walls of the city. At first, there was no place either in the palace to house the secret of my lord, and for two days we got to sleep on the floor, then the Moors rented white mats, which they demanded a deposit of 15 ducats.
We stayed two weeks in Granada and the July 7, thank God, we continue our journey joyfully.
Another detail: The Emperor's Palace was built by the Moors in the Alhambra hill, within the precincts of the city, and inside you can still see the curious and splendid bathrooms in the Moorish king who bathed with their wives, few of those who had all he wanted: he wanted to but after a bath, sent him an apple.
The water that runs through all the aforementioned palace (which is also a fish pond) also flows through almost all the other houses of the city. The water is unhealthy, and if you drink is easy to get sick from dysentery, but there was no other kind of water, nor wells. "
Which is why we have the term "Blackamoor" which translates to "Black Blacks"...
This reminds me of the word "Nigger", "Negro", "Nigga" which in the African American community all have different meanings. In the AA community non blacks can and are ofter descibed under "Niggas" or "Niggers" for example a "White Nigga" or a "Mexican Nigga". Nigga when used negatively, esp. in the Baby Boomer Generation, more often than not describes a behavior pattern. My Aunt who teaches at a low income school told the family about how a White Teacher came to her shocked and red in the face because one of her students used the "N" word. The Teacher told the child not to use the word ever and asked where did he/she learn it, and the student replied, "My Mom tells me "Not to act like a Nigga" at school. The White woman was shocked, but my Aunt and family found it amusing.
The point is that Words and their meanings change over time. Andalucian History spans some 800 years. People expect the Moors to be the same..?? What Moor mean in the Greco Roman Period and in the Early Ears of Andalucian history is not the same as during the Reconquista and esp. after the expulsion of the "Moriscos".
Who knows in 400 years the word Nigga/negro might come to include blond blue eyed folks just as Moor came to include people of the same phenotype.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Up at least until the mid 6th century CE the Maurs were still known as blacks to the literate Syrian, Greek, and Roman readership whose natives were largely off white and dark haired.
Now that you note that because if the Invading people were majority Blonds and fair Kybilie Types and other "Moroccan" peoples why would they be called Moors, and not "Arabs/Muhammedans, or Visigoths by the Spanish. Its clear that they were identified as Mauros or blacks.
Im sure there were Arabs, and non blacks among the Troops but I think these folks who in 711 brought Iberia under Muslim control were in the large Mauros.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I've asked the moderators to delete the earlier post. Sorry for the earlier format skew let me try it again.
Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.
Note the definition of Mauri, from Mauros, where the regions called Mauretania got their name in this entry of Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography.
To further see mauros applies to people who are black [list]
Up at least until the mid 6th century CE the Maurs were still known as blacks to the literate Syrian, Greek, and Roman readership whose natives were largely off white and dark haired. ] And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired. Procopius of Caesarea History of the Wars c. 550 CE Book IV xiii.29
If the larger number of people there in Mauretania at some time became other than black they must have been infused with large doses from non-blacks i.e., fleeing Muslims from the new nation of Isabella's Spain, various enslaved Europeans, Balkans, etc. and other sources.
Therefore the Moors did not look like the non-black people below who the same authors would describe as having dark skin such as these men:
^^^These were not blacks according to Procopius' definition of black He other words to describe them, (and what were the words for these people?) these brown people
these Bafours etc. _________________________________________________
^^^^ The Moors of the 6th century were nearly pitch black like only the darkest members of the Dinka/Nuer
real black people: (at least extremely dark brown):
These "Moors ruled by Ortaias"
so it's clear now:
"not black-skinned like the Moors, but very white in body and fair-haired."
Now we have the key, can easily separate the two races in North Africa blacks and whites
the blacks look like charcoal and the whites look like soap
lioness productiosn 2011
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Another fact I find interesting is the similarities between the [b]Almoravids[/i] or Al-maurabitun and the Taureg, Kel Tamasheq and the habit of wearing veils among the warrior men. The Almoravids became known as al-malattimun or "Those who wear Veils"/"Veiled ones" the men wore the veils and the women did not, another aspect shared by Tauregs.
The Almoravid and Almohad armies relied heavily on African rather than Iberian and European recruits from countries/Areas like Morocco, Mauritania, Senegal, Algeria and Tunis.
The connection and similarities between the Almoravid and Almohad Berbers to me is good evidence that the Tauregs were not originally Whites who mixed with blacks, its more evidence they represent the original Berber, Brown and Reddish Brown skinned.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Bottom line, the word Moor is simply a generic phrase that has varied in usage and application over time. They key here is to focus on true ethnic descriptions relying on as accurate resources as possible, not so much for the term moor, but for the descriptions of the people of North West Africa. The documentation we have makes it clear that from the earliest times, Africans in North West Africa were black.
For example the Numidians were known to have fought as auxiliary cavalry for the Romans. They started out as horsemen for Hannibal, but eventually were used against him. These auxiliaries were called "equites Maurorum" or Moorish Cavalry.
quote: Light cavalry, from equites="horsement": Light cavalry still came from Mauretania (Mauretania and Numidia were merged as provinces; their inhabitants were the same people, the Mauri(from which derives the English term "Moors". They were the ancestors of the Berber people of Modern North Africa
Also, one must take the Spanish accounts of many battles with a large grain of salt. First off, the idea that the Muslim armies who had conquered Spain and ruled it for almost 700 years had no armor or horses is pure ridiculous nonsense. The real reason for many defeats, like the Battle of Navas De Tolosa, is the disunity of the Muslim side and the distrust and division among them. In the Battle of Navas de Tolosa, there are legends saying that many of those there were not willing to fight because they were not paid. But considering that it was the Africans who were relied on the most and treated the worst, it makes sense that by this time they had become fed up with the nonsense. This is the reason for the defeat at the hands of Charles Martel. The reason for the fracture of the country into Taifas. The reason for the fall of the Almoravids. The reason for the fall of the Almohads and the reason for the fall of Islamic Spain itself.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Sorry again, something's wrong with my interface it's causing dupes.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Kitty please, you haven't the least what Procopius would describe. Snake, don't try to put your words in his mouth. People aren't as stupid as you and know between his accounts and your crack pipe fantasies.
Also you must quote me in context without spoutting your nonsense as Procopius' what he never wrote or knew anything about. Instead pay attention to what he did actually say which is the Maur king Ortais and his people were black and somewhere clear on the otherside of the desert there were reportedly ethny unnamed whites not Maurs.
Maurs lived between the Atlas and the Med coast. Procopius' whites, whoever they were if indeed they ever were, lived a good 1500 miles inland from littoral North Africa home of the Mauri blacks.
quote:Originally chopped up by the lyin' arse:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.
Note the definition of Mauri, from Mauros, where the regions called Mauretania got their name in this entry of Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography.
To further see mauros applies to people who are black
First insert the word Μαύρος into the GOOGLE translator
Now set the translator to English -> Greek Insert the word black Insert the word negro Insert the word nigger
Finally set the translator to Greek -> English Insert the word αράπης
Up at least until the mid 6th century CE the Maurs were still known as blacks to the literate Syrian, Greek, and Roman readership whose natives were largely off white and dark haired. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired. Procopius of Caesarea History of the Wars c. 550 CE Book IV xiii.29
If the larger number of people there in Mauretania at some time became other than black they must have been infused with large doses from non-blacks i.e., fleeing Muslims from the new nation of Isabella's Spain, various enslaved Europeans, Balkans, etc. and other sources.
Mew, mew, mew, hissssssssssssssssss.
lyin' arse fuckups 2011
BTW Most of us are grown folk so stop talking via pre-schooler picture spam and put up some on topic primary contemporaneous documentation. Oh, that's right wittle baby not know how.
You could learn a lot from Jari and Doug on how to effectively compose picture and text and also how to truthfully report facts instead of snaking your losers game pretending not not to see there's a lot of threads making up this tapestry.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Jari,
You are stupid, you can not even comprehend your own sources. Im not here to teach basic comprehension, but as they tell 1st and 2nd grade students.
Lol you reveal your ignorance and egregious lack of knowledge on the subject. The Mopricos are not from the North and they were not leaders nor blue bloods which is what pure Spaniards were called (sans moorish or jewish blood) and they wouldn't likely be Curas (catholic priests) either. You're too funny!
Still the fact remains, the Spanish in the new world thought people with 1/4th blood looked smiliar to the converted moors (moriscos) they had known back in Spain.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
The Song of Roland
Their martyrdom, his men's, Marsile has seen, So he bids sound his horns and his buccines; 1630 Then canters forth with all his great army. Canters before a Sarrazin, Abisme, More felon none was in that company; Cankered with guile and every felony, He fears not God,
their faces were black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot, and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel and hurtful than the wolf that comes at night to the flock of sheep. The vile African people. Courtesy of AL-Takruri
The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Bottom line, the word Moor is simply a generic phrase that has varied in usage and application over time.
yes
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
They key here is to focus on true ethnic descriptions relying on as accurate resources as possible, not so much for the term moor, but for the descriptions of the people of North West Africa. The documentation we have makes it clear that from the earliest times, Africans in North West Africa were black.
yes if you exclude 3,000 years of Carthage and other migrants
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
For example the Numidians were known to have fought as auxiliary cavalry for the Romans. They started out as horsemen for Hannibal, but eventually were used against him. These auxiliaries were called "equites Maurorum" or Moorish Cavalry.
Of the Persians [75]the power rapidly increased; and at length, the children, through excess of population, separating from the parents, they took possession, under the name of Numidians, of those regions bordering on Carthage which are now called Numidia. process of time, the two parties,[76] each assisting the other, reduced the neighboring tribes, by force or fear, under their sway; but those who had spread toward our sea, made the greater conquests: for the Lybians are less warlike than the Getulians[77] At last nearly all lower Africa[78] was occupied by the Numidians; and all the conquered tribes were merged in the nation and name of their conquerors.
Also, one must take the Spanish accounts of many battles with a large grain of salt. First off, the idea that the Muslim armies who had conquered Spain and ruled it for almost 700 years had no armor or horses is pure ridiculous nonsense. The real reason for many defeats, like the Battle of Navas De Tolosa, is the disunity of the Muslim side and the distrust and division among them. In the Battle of Navas de Tolosa, there are legends saying that many of those there were not willing to fight because they were not paid. But considering that it was the Africans who were relied on the most and treated the worst, it makes sense that by this time they had become fed up with the nonsense.
jari put up that version
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa
here's a much earlier rendition:
The Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa. Afonso X, Cantigas de Santa Maria. Manuscript (50 x 34 cm). Castela (c. 1260-1270). BnF (Facsimile ms. T.l.1 fol. 92, Madrid, National Heritage)
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I am tired of seeing fragments of Sallust. Lets read the whole passage shall we:
quote: Concerning the original inhabitants of Africa, the settlers that afterward joined them, and the manner in which they intermingled, I shall offer the following brief account, which, though it differs from the general opinion, is that which was interpreted to me from the Punic volumes said to have belonged to King Hiempsal[65], and which the inhabitants of that country believe to be consistent with fact. For the truth of the statement, however, the writers themselves must be responsible.
XVIII. Africa, then, was originally occupied by the Getulians and Libyans,[66] rude and uncivilized tribes, who subsisted on the flesh of wild animals, or, like cattle, on the herbage of the soil. They were controlled neither by customs, laws, nor the authority of any ruler; they wandered about, without fixed habitations, and slept in the abodes to which night drove them. But after Hercules, as the Africans think, perished in Spain, his army, which was composed of various nations,[67] having lost its leader, and many candidates severally claiming the command of it, was speedily dispersed. Of its constituent troops, the Medes, Persians, and Armenians,[68] having sailed over into Africa, occupied the parts nearest to our sea.[69] The Persians, however, settled more toward the ocean,[70] and used the inverted keels of their vessels for huts, there being no wood in the country, and no opportunity of obtaining it, either by purchase or barter, from the Spaniards; for a wide sea, and an unknown tongue, were barriers to all intercourse. These, by degrees, formed intermarriages with the Getulians; and because, from constantly trying different soils, they were perpetually shifting their abodes, they called themselves NUMIDIANS.[71] And to this day the huts of the Numidian boors, which they call _mapalia_, are of an oblong shape, with curved roofs; resembling the hulls of ships.
The Medes and Armenians connected themselves with the Libyans, who dwelled near the African sea; while the Getulians lay more to the sun,[72] not far from the torrid heats; and these soon built themselves towns,[73] as, being separated from Spain only by a strait, they proceeded to open an intercourse with its inhabitants. The name of Medes the Libyans gradually corrupted, changing it, in their barbarous tongue, into Moors.[74]
Of the Persians[75] the power rapidly increased; and at length, the children, through excess of population, separating from the parents, they took possession, under the name of Numidians, of those regions bordering on Carthage which are now called Numidia. In process of time, the two parties,[76] each assisting the other, reduced the neighboring tribes, by force or fear, under their sway; but those who had spread toward our sea, made the greater conquests: for the Lybians are less warlike than the Getulians[77] At last nearly all lower Africa[78] was occupied by the Numidians; and all the conquered tribes were merged in the nation and name of their conquerors.
XIX. At a later period, the Phoenicians, some of whom wished to lessen their numbers at home, and others, ambitious of empire, engaged the populace, and such as were eager for change, to follow them, founded Hippo,[79] Adrumetum, Leptis,[80] and other cities, on the sea-coast; which, soon growing powerful, became partly a support, and partly an honor, to their parent state. Of Carthage I think it better to be silent, than to say but little; especially as time bids me hasten to other matters.
Next to the Catabathmos,[81] then, which divides Egypt from Africa, the first city along the sea-coast[82] is Cyrene, a colony of Theraeans;[83] after which are the two Syrtes,[84] with Leptis[85] between them; then the Altars of the Philaeni,[86] which the Carthaginians considered the boundary of their dominion on the side of Egypt; beyond these are the other Punic towns. The other regions, as far as Mauretania, the Numidians occupy; the Moors are nearest to Spain. To the south of Numidia,[87] as we are informed, are the Getulians, of whom some live in huts, and others lead a vagrant and less civilized life; beyond these are the Ethiopians; and further on, regions parched by the heat of the sun.
At the time of the Jugurthine war, most of the Punic towns, and the territories which Carthage had lately possessed,[88] were under the government of Roman praetors; a great part of the Getulians, and Numidia as far as the river Mulucha, were subject to Jugurtha; while the whole of the Moors were governed by Bocchus, a king who knew nothing of the Romans but their name, and who, before this period, was as little known to us, either in war or peace. Of Africa and its inhabitants I have now said all that my narrative requires.
Now quite clearly, if this translation is accurate, Sallust posits that North Africa was populated by a mixed population of Africans, Armenians, Persians and others. So right off the bat anyone who is using this as a source of information on the "Moors" has to acknowledge that Sallust quotes a Numidian author in saying they are mixed. Now it is up to the modern reader to decide how accurate this is.
But looking at a map of these areas, they are primarily along the North African coast. They do not include the Sahara desert and certainly not much of Western Africa or modern Mauritania. Hence, being coastal, the idea of mixture is not far fetched. However, that does not change the fact that since time immemorial these places have been inhabited by blacks. But being as it may, the fact that he mentions the Armies of Hercules as a historical figure in Spain, itself means that much of this cannot be treated as literal historical fact, as opposed to legend, for Hercules was a creature of fiction, notwithstanding that populations have mixed in North Africa, but they weren't part of Hercules' armies of course.
The point being that anyone who thinks using this text amounts to serious anthropology on the people and history of North Africa is quite obviously a clown. No less than trying to extrapolate a few images from a book in Spain into a full description of all the ethnic groups and their compositions within Spain and North West Africa over the period from 700AD to 1500. Not to mention even a ethnographic description of the Almohads or Almoravids. Even using coins runs into trouble because they are not reliable and are often contradictory. Any fool who would suggest being able to make precise historical anthropological statements based on such is obviously an idiot. And it is only a fool who tries to pretend that the presence of mixed populations therefore invalidates the presence of pure blooded natives as the aboriginal group in any continent, not just North Africa. But here's a hint, some of these people mentioned by Sallust are mixed with Romans as a result of being allied with them or within the bounds of Roman provinces in Africa. Doesn't make them pure bloods now does it (especially some of the leaders).
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Nice Images here are some more Images I think that detail how the non Europoean Moorish and Arab population would have looked..
Moors in Algeria..
Disputing Arabs in Algiers
Moors and Arab children at school..
People who maintain Almoravid and Almohad Manuscripts
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Now quite clearly, if this translation is accurate, Sallust posits that North Africa was populated by a mixed population of Africans, Armenians, Persians and others. So right off the bat anyone who is using this as a source of information on the "Moors" has to acknowledge that Sallust quotes a Numidian author in saying they are mixed. Now it is up to the modern reader to decide how accurate this is.
If he is quoting from a Numidian author then it has more credibility. By the way why do the Numidians have Punic names?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
But looking at a map of these areas, they are primarily along the North African coast. They do not include the Sahara desert and certainly not much of Western Africa or modern Mauritania. Hence, being coastal, the idea of mixture is not far fetched.
let's not even mention Carthage, it's a bad word
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
However, that does not change the fact that since time immemorial these places have been inhabited by blacks.
1) prove it
2) black is a relative term to the ancient writers they didn't ofetn refer to people as brown even though they were and you are
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: But being as it may, the fact that he mentions the Armies of Hercules as a historical figure in Spain, itself means that much of this cannot be treated as literal historical fact, as opposed to legend, for Hercules was a creature of fiction, notwithstanding that populations have mixed in North Africa, but they weren't part of Hercules' armies of course.
The point being that anyone who thinks using this text amounts to serious anthropology on the people and history of North Africa is quite obviously a clown.
take it up with Al Tak, he was the first to use Sallust as a source used and but up whole book pages of his
thank you,
lioness productions
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The point is that this thread has gone nowhere since the topic starter has not once shown any evidence of any images that accurately depict any of the Berber populations that made up the Almoravid and Almohad armies. Instead he goes around in circles and all over the map. If he cannot support the point of the thread then what makes any thing else discussed any more valid?
LOL. I mean he just posts any old artwork and says "see Moors". It doesn't matter who painted it and when and it could contain 4 stick figures and that is good enough for him. Then he tries to explain the colors of the stick figures and whether the black lines are really black.
Totally absolutely absurd and hilarious.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] The point is that this thread has gone nowhere since the topic starter has not once shown any evidence of any images that accurately depict any of the Berber populations that made up the Almoravid and Almohad armies. Instead he goes around in circles and all over the map. If he cannot support the point of the thread then what makes any thing else discussed any more valid?
LOL. I mean he just posts any old artwork and says "see Moors".
^^^ look at this guy, goes and posts 19th c European orientalists and blames the lioness
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Bottom line, the word Moor is simply a generic phrase that has varied in usage and application over time. They key here is to focus on true ethnic descriptions relying on as accurate resources as possible, not so much for the term moor, but for the descriptions of the people of North West Africa. The documentation we have makes it clear that from the earliest times, Africans in North West Africa were black.
For example the Numidians were known to have fought as auxiliary cavalry for the Romans. They started out as horsemen for Hannibal, but eventually were used against him. These auxiliaries were called "equites Maurorum" or Moorish Cavalry.
quote: Light cavalry, from equites="horsement": Light cavalry still came from Mauretania (Mauretania and Numidia were merged as provinces; their inhabitants were the same people, the Mauri(from which derives the English term "Moors". They were the ancestors of the Berber people of Modern North Africa
Also, one must take the Spanish accounts of many battles with a large grain of salt. First off, the idea that the Muslim armies who had conquered Spain and ruled it for almost 700 years had no armor or horses is pure ridiculous nonsense. The real reason for many defeats, like the Battle of Navas De Tolosa, is the disunity of the Muslim side and the distrust and division among them. In the Battle of Navas de Tolosa, there are legends saying that many of those there were not willing to fight because they were not paid. But considering that it was the Africans who were relied on the most and treated the worst, it makes sense that by this time they had become fed up with the nonsense.
You fool zoom in on the features of those cavalry men. They don't much different from the romans.
Most of the Blacks among the Moors were not Berbers but were recruited from Sub sahran Africa. And they were used for their shock effect.
"Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries. Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons "http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Now quite clearly, if this translation is accurate, Sallust posits that North Africa was populated by a mixed population of Africans, Armenians, Persians and others. So right off the bat anyone who is using this as a source of information on the "Moors" has to acknowledge that Sallust quotes a Numidian author in saying they are mixed. Now it is up to the modern reader to decide how accurate this is.
But looking at a map of these areas, they are primarily along the North African coast. They do not include the Sahara desert and certainly not much of Western Africa or modern Mauritania. Hence, being coastal, the idea of mixture is not far fetched. However, that does not change the fact that since time immemorial these places have been inhabited by blacks. But being as it may, the fact that he mentions the Armies of Hercules as a historical figure in Spain, itself means that much of this cannot be treated as literal historical fact, as opposed to legend, for Hercules was a creature of fiction, notwithstanding that populations have mixed in North Africa, but they weren't part of Hercules' armies of course
Hercules and his amrmies was a fiction but a fiction in which many folks in Sallust's day believed in. The story of Herculese is mentioned to explain the appearance of coastal north African people as are the dubious accounts of Persians and Armenians. The likely interpretation is that many North Africans looked the way they do Today and these accounts are used to explain they didn't resemble the Blacks further in the African interior.
Here is Juba II king of the Mauri.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
the whelp reduced to pre-schooler picture spams and face saving sarcasm.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The Song of Roland
Their martyrdom, his men's, Marsile has seen, So he bids sound his horns and his buccines; 1630 Then canters forth with all his great army. Canters before a Sarrazin, Abisme, More felon none was in that company; Cankered with guile and every felony, He fears not God,
their faces were black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot, and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel and hurtful than the wolf that comes at night to the flock of sheep. The vile African people. Courtesy of AL-Takruri
The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
You ask too many damn questions.
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
First off it was from Senegal that the invasion of the Almohades of north Med took place,so off course this was in reality a so called "Sub-Saharan" conquest of south Europe.
Melchior
quote:The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
Because Ethiop was a catch-all for Africa in general not just the nation bearing that name,like was pointed out pages back, Moor,Negro,Ethiop,was interchangeable.
Look at it this way Blacks from the nation of Ethiopia would not have been part of the invading forces as they were most likely to been Christians or even allies of their European co-religionist.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You sure can't cite for ish can you? Maybe that's why you never offer relevant quotes properly credited with author, title, and page number.
Besides being a lying monkeyfunker what the fuh's your problem junior? Never posted and don't know nothing about no Song of Roland. Get righteous son.
I know to your folk we all look alike but damn everybody here is an individual, no monolithic mentality among the active serious ES posters.
It's only you opinionated fools disagree with facts.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7: The Song of Roland
Courtesy of AL-Takruri
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
So you and Melanophobe7 slept together eh? Well keep me out of your pin the tail on al~Takruri pillow talk. I posted Procopius facsimile pages not Sallust you mixed up confused propaganda peddler.
BTW Procopius also gives a non-scientific story of Maur origins as do others including the Arabs. They amount to little more than prestige attachment. That's why I don't post them. Others here however do take all those contrary mythographies seriously.
I have posted proposed origins of the foreigner incretion in North Africa from the stone age up to today all free of Melqart (Heracles), Joshua ben Nun, Djallout (Goliath), Ifriqiyas, and other figures unknown to valid history.
quote:Originally posted by the lyin'arse: take it up with Al Tak, he was the first to use Sallust as a source used and but up whole book pages of his
thank you,
lyin' arse fuckups
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Why do these idiots keep making the same flawed arguments??
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
Numidian kings
As if these unpainted portraits are proof of non blacks. There are blacks with those same features.
quote:Originally posted by the dumb ass liar: Jari ^^^ you think this swarthy man (Emperor Septimius Serverus) with large curling hair is African? come on son.
Serverus was born in Africa by an African mother! This comes to show just how ignorant this twit is! LOL
quote:The Delusional Lyingass further writes: Therefore the Moors did not look like the non-black people below who the same authors would describe as having dark skin such as these men:
^^^These were not blacks according to Procopius' definition of black He other words to describe them, (and what were the words for these people?) these brown people..
ROTLFLOL So these men above are not black??
It's official. The lyinass is so desperate she now lies to herself! As if only those Africans with the darkest complexions like southern Sudanese are now black!! LOL Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: First off it was from Senegal that the invasion of the Almohades of north Med took place,so off course this was in reality a so called "Sub-Saharan" conquest of south Europe.
Melchior
quote:The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
Because Ethiop was a catch-all for Africa in general not just the nation bearing that name,like was pointed out pages back, Moor,Negro,Ethiop,was interchangeable.
Look at it this way Blacks from the nation of Ethiopia would not have been part of the invading forces as they were most likely to been Christians or even allies of their European co-religionist.
No Brada, it was the Almoravids who originated with Berber Lemtuna tribes near the Senegal river.
And you have to remember that in older days Ethiopia, Bilad-es-Sudan, Moor, Negro and other terms were used variably to refer to the same thing: black people. It varies from text to text primarily because of when the work was created, the terms contemporaneous and more importantly who translated it.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
This self Id black lite-skinned person vs this darker skinned non black if you listen to Lioness,who could share ancestry and resemble each other some what.. Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: First off it was from Senegal that the invasion of the Almohades of north Med took place,so off course this was in reality a so called "Sub-Saharan" conquest of south Europe.
Melchior
quote:The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
Because Ethiop was a catch-all for Africa in general not just the nation bearing that name,like was pointed out pages back, Moor,Negro,Ethiop,was interchangeable.
Look at it this way Blacks from the nation of Ethiopia would not have been part of the invading forces as they were most likely to been Christians or even allies of their European co-religionist.
Berbers were orginally near the coast. In Islamic times they spread southward reaching Mali and Senegal. As you can see even Today in countires like Mauretania where the dominant Moors are the light skinned ones.
The fact that the song of Roland mentions troops from North Africa but the Blacks from Ethiopia is because knew that the coastal North Africans weren't Black and that Blacks come from deeper into Africa
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
But these books describe him as a Moor who was also a Spanish Muslim, meaning he was born in Spain to Moorish parents who had settled in Spain, Moors who had settled in Spain for a few hundred years perhaps.
You are making yourself dizzy going in circles. I'm essentially informing you that you were wrong when you emoted that my skepticism of you was based on Leo Africanus' skin color.
quote: You are correct that there is no solid evidence other than this claim.
Exactly. And here you were earlier, dismissing my skepticism as driven by Leo's skin color. That accusation said more about you than it did me.
quote: Originally posted by the lioness:
Like I said there is no hard definition, "dark skinned" is relative.
Then why haven't you corrected this, if you are confident that there is no hard definition:
You'll find no pre-11th century references to people from the Arabian plate or to European natives as "Moors", unless I'm mistaken. If I am, I am sure you'll correct me, wouldn't you?
Up for the challenge?
Repeating your claim doesn't make you less wrong than you were the first time around. Additionally, another poster subsequently gave you are more precise etymology than I briefed you on.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The Bilad Es Sudan did not refer to all black people, it referred to the place where Arab Geographers thought the blackest people lived-The Southern Nile Valley.
This is why Ibn Bhuttata believed the Niger is the Nile River.
Other Lands blacks lived were
Bilad Es Zanj-Land of the Zanj
Bilad es Barbar-Land of the Berbers
Bilad es Habesh-Abyssinia/Ethiopia
The Idea that Bilad es Sudan= SSA is unfounded and due to confusion based of the Arab Geographers who thought the Niger was the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: First off it was from Senegal that the invasion of the Almohades of north Med took place,so off course this was in reality a so called "Sub-Saharan" conquest of south Europe.
Melchior
quote:The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
Because Ethiop was a catch-all for Africa in general not just the nation bearing that name,like was pointed out pages back, Moor,Negro,Ethiop,was interchangeable.
Look at it this way Blacks from the nation of Ethiopia would not have been part of the invading forces as they were most likely to been Christians or even allies of their European co-religionist.
No Brada, it was the Almoravids who originated with Berber Lemtuna tribes near the Senegal river.
And you have to remember that in older days Ethiopia, Bilad-es-Sudan, Moor, Negro and other terms were used variably to refer to the same thing: black people. It varies from text to text primarily because of when the work was created, the terms contemporaneous and more importantly who translated it.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Berbers were orginally near the coast. In Islamic times they spread southward reaching Mali and Senegal.
Word is that the name Senegal derives from the Sanhaja Kel Tamasheq groups. Do you have any primary document(s) dating to an era before Islamic times that suggest the southward area of western Sahara/Sahel was not populated by Tamazight speakers? Do you even have documents during the Islamic era whereby we are told that contemporaneous Tamazight speakers did not populate southward areas of the Sahara and Sahel?
Your claim lacks support on the genetic front.
quote: As you can see even Today in countires like Mauretania where the dominant Moors are the light skinned ones.
Can you be a bit more precise here: Are you speaking of say, coastal northern Kabyle "light-skin" type, or something else?
quote: The fact that the song of Roland mentions troops from North Africa but the Blacks from Ethiopia is because knew that the coastal North Africans weren't Black and that Blacks come from deeper into Africa
You should hear medieval Spanish description of the man who led the al-Murabitun (Almoravids).
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Its funny the lengths people will go to to deny the Truth. LMAO at the idea that the Moorish Calvery looks like the Romans, well uhh Duh its a f-king RELIEF...However we know the Moors are wearing a distinctive wig hair piece...
So lets see how the Romans depicted people who sport that Wig/Hair style in BUSTS shall we..
Notice the similarities in the Hair/Wig of the Busts from Tunis and the Moorish Calvery..Im sure Garrig will chalk it up to Slaves and Lyin-ass will find a thick lipped European
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Bilad Es Sudan did not refer to all black people, it referred to the place where Arab Geographers thought the blackest people lived-The Southern Nile Valley.
This is why Ibn Bhuttata believed the Niger is the Nile River.
Other Lands blacks lived were
Bilad Es Zanj-Land of the Zanj
Bilad es Barbar-Land of the Berbers
Bilad es Habesh-Abyssinia/Ethiopia
The Idea that Bilad es Sudan= SSA is unfounded and due to confusion based of the Arab Geographers who thought the Niger was the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: First off it was from Senegal that the invasion of the Almohades of north Med took place,so off course this was in reality a so called "Sub-Saharan" conquest of south Europe.
Melchior
quote:The Song Roland is a poetic tale. If you notice several moorish folk are mentioned from North Africa. But the Black ones are described as coming from Ethiopia...Why?
Because Ethiop was a catch-all for Africa in general not just the nation bearing that name,like was pointed out pages back, Moor,Negro,Ethiop,was interchangeable.
Look at it this way Blacks from the nation of Ethiopia would not have been part of the invading forces as they were most likely to been Christians or even allies of their European co-religionist.
No Brada, it was the Almoravids who originated with Berber Lemtuna tribes near the Senegal river.
And you have to remember that in older days Ethiopia, Bilad-es-Sudan, Moor, Negro and other terms were used variably to refer to the same thing: black people. It varies from text to text primarily because of when the work was created, the terms contemporaneous and more importantly who translated it.
There were many terms that were used for places inhabited by black people. I only pointed out a few and you mentioned even more. Ethiopia was one of them. So depending on when the work was written and who wrote it you would get different terms used for generally the same thing: land of black folks. This is likewise the origin of the word Moor or Maure. The actual geographical accuracy of such terms in limiting the scope of blacks in Africa wasn't my point. It was understanding the scope and usage of various terms to refer to black Africans at various times. And depending on who translated said works you will get another set of terms used by Europeans: blacks, negro, Ethiopian, moor and so forth.
But generally speaking those works that are the most detailed about the populations of North Africa and Spain are generally based around clan names and lines of descent more than anything else. Such as the works of Ibn Battuta and others, where you will get a more general description of people in various places and at various times. Unfortunately, most works of the Arabs will refer to the lands of Africans unconverted or on the borders of Islam simply by a synonym for black. This is the same trend in European writings as well. Not to mention that many European writers will use Moor, Arab, Negro and Berber rather haphazardly in some older works from North Africa, making it almost impossible to get the sort of precise ethnic break down many people would like to have.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ My Comment was not directed at you but in general. Many people included people here think the greek Ethiopia or the Arab Bilad Es Sudan was a term that denoted SSA in Ancient times. This is a Eurocentric tactic to bolster the claim that blacks were confined to one place on Earth.
The Bilad Es Sudan is obviously pertaining to the region of Modern Sudan where the blackest people on Earth lived. The Egyptians, Ethiopians and other Africans who are not as Dark made this clear. The fact that Ibn Bhattuta thought the Niger was the Nile further supports this. The people in the region of the Niger are also quite Dark Skinned. This does not mean that there were not Black Native people of the Mehgreb. Intersting to note is that during the reign of Mali and Songhai the Manda people of Maritania(former Ghana Empire and Nobles) became Islamisized and begand to see themselves as Bidan.
for example The Arab Egyptians had a fit because an AA played Anwar Sedat. In their eyes Anwar was Arab despite his looks. While in Western Eyes he was black.
The fact is we need to stop applying Modern notions of Race on Middle Age Islamic and non Western Cultures. Islam is the direct opposite of Western Standards. One drop on "Arab" blood through the father makes one "Arab" or Bidan. You would have had people looking like the Sudanese Janjaweed claiming to Be Bidan in the Middle Ages.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ My Comment was not directed at you but in general. Many people included people here think the greek Ethiopia or the Arab Bilad Es Sudan was a term that denoted SSA in Ancient times. This is a Eurocentric tactic to bolster the claim that blacks were confined to one place on Earth.
The Bilad Es Sudan is obviously pertaining to the region of Modern Sudan where the blackest people on Earth lived. The Egyptians, Ethiopians and other Africans who are not as Dark made this clear. The fact that Ibn Bhattuta thought the Niger was the Nile further supports this. The people in the region of the Niger are also quite Dark Skinned. This does not mean that there were not Black Native people of the Mehgreb. Intersting to note is that during the reign of Mali and Songhai the Manda people of Maritania(former Ghana Empire and Nobles) became Islamisized and begand to see themselves as Bidan.
for example The Arab Egyptians had a fit because an AA played Anwar Sedat. In their eyes Anwar was Arab despite his looks. While in Western Eyes he was black.
The fact is we need to stop applying Modern notions of Race on Middle Age Islamic and non Western Cultures. Islam is the direct opposite of Western Standards. One drop on "Arab" blood through the father makes one "Arab" or Bidan. You would have had people looking like the Sudanese Janjaweed claiming to Be Bidan in the Middle Ages.
I understand the above. Therefore when reading older works must take into account that some things are not going to be made clear from the texts. The terminologies are often contradictory and sometimes confusing. However, in general, when you hear someone use the reference to the term Negro or Sudanese, especially in European works they are making an effort to separate black Africans (often non Muslims) from the rest. And for the rest they use Arab, Berber or Moor, which does not provide any sort of description of overall phenotype of such populations. Most works from the Islamic period in Spain likewise focus on clan lines of descent and again don't really help in terms of understanding phenotype.
Bottom line, to understand the distributions and types of phenotypes among a population one must use a multi-disciplinary approach and this will help reconcile the inconsistencies and contradictions found in solely relying on texts, or even art.
Such types are not going to be precisely defined and identified in older texts. And this is just Morocco today. Most of Morocco as we know it did not exist in the 1100s.
Yes, I agree for example the so called Berbers were not called that name by Arabs. The Bilad es Berbera or Land of the Berbers is in the Horn of Africa around Somalia. North West Africa was called the Mehgred or the Western frontier of Islamic controlled land.
So I am cautious when I read historical books that try to claim that so and so Muslim Army used "Black African Soldier" and "Berber" Soldiers etc. The Muslims had no notion of a fixed idea of a "Black African" or a Negro. Alot of times these people came from Sudan or the Niger region, again the Arab geographers thought the Nile and Niger were the same.
Take for example Al Jahiz's Boasts of the Zanj in it he says...
The Arabs draw glory from the black color. If an objector advances; “On what is that based, as they say: Such is of a pure white, bursting of whiteness, white and of clear face? We will answer: By this, the Arabs do not mean the whiteness of the skin, but rather the nobility and purity of character
SO how do we know when a Muslim is talking about Skin color or about Nobility. The confusing part is that in the Middle Ages the Arabs and Persians bashed Northern Europeans and Slaves on par with the Zanj and sons of Kush, as being uncivlilized and Barbaric. So why would people who claim to be white and that white is the best bash Nordic people..??
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The Zanj also say : We also have philosophers from among us as well as theologians and we have fine manners. God may he be exalted , did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs, such as the Banu Sulaim bin Mansur, and that all the peoples settled in the Harra, besides the Banu Sulaim are black. These tribes take slaves from among the Ashban to mend their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and they take their wives from among the Byzantines; and yet it takes less than three generations for the Harra region to give them all the complexion of the Banu Sulaim.
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blackness, O people of the Zanj, is not different from the blackness of the Banu Sulaym and other Arab tribes we have mentioned. And the very blackness of the Zanj is like the total whiteness of the white men.
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The same rules apply to the brown color of the children of mixed marriages, also on their appearance, their habits in eating and desires. A poet when talking about Usaylim ibn al Alnaf al Asadi mentioned the blackness of the people of Yemen. There is Usaylim, easily noticed by those searching . He belongs to the elite chiefs through his line of descent. Others then in fear of his royal birth clap their hands. Black musk is applied to his hair as well as perfumed oil. If the black Yemenites would make him a woolen cloak, they have to make it thin and wide
The Boasts of the Zanj is a great read for the mentality on "Race" at the time it was written. Majority of the book is spent at trying to make the Arabs, the Prophet Muhammed, Noble Arab and important Islamic Figures and as closer to black or black period. The Mindset of the Muslim is decent and relation to the Prophet and to Arab families.
Also you had the rise of the Persian and Bhagdad scholars bashing the Zanj and claiming that Allah cursed Ham black. Also Muslims saw any non Islamic entity with the exception of Byzantium as uncivilized. You would have some Musim writers claiming that Non Muslim Empires were barbaric and feeble Minded but would speak highly of places like Mali and Timbucktu.
So in essence you have to take this with a grain of salt.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Well specifically concerning North West Africa, the fact is that ethnic divisions truly did exist as a result of the Arab conquest. And when you get into Spain it gets even worse. Now, you must also remember the great span of time that separates say the Almoravid period, from the formation of the modern Moroccan state. So you have to take into account the historical periods and take into context the documentation based on the time frame. For example: ancient pre-Roman, Phoenician North West Africa, Roman North West Africa, Early Islamic North West Africa and Al Andalus, North West Africa after 1500, Colonial North West Africa and the present day.
Some people would like to pretend that things have remained fixed but that is very much not the case. Things have changed a lot.
Now, concerning Berber identity moving from the coasts and being an ancient prehistoric pattern of whites in North Africa, note the history of the Ait Atta. They only come on the scene in the 16th century. And they started expanding against neighboring tribes. At this time they also coined the term Haratin to refer to the indigenous blacks of Southern Morocco whom they subjugated. This expansion reached its height into the 19th century. So you see this is is something that reflects recent patterns in Morocco and not simply an ancient prehistoric legacy. Who was in the Atlas and Draa at the time of the Almoravids? What was the population like at the time of the Almohads? And how do the populations there now compare to the populations back then? We probably won't be able to answer that but the point is the same.
Likewise, when the Almohads and ALmoravids existed, Morocco and Mauritania did not exist as we now know it. And then came Arab subjugation of Mauritatia in the 1600s when the berber tribes there were arabized and assimilated. So again it makes any attempt to portray ethnic populations as fixed or static almost impossible.
Then you had the white slave trade in North Africa and Morocco from the 1500s to 1800s, along with the African slave trade into the 20th century. In fact, in Islamic Spain, Muslims often sold Berber slaves along with Christian slaves, Slavic people and other Africans. You also had the expulsion of Moriscos and Jews from Spain in the 1600s who were sent to North Africa.
It's official. The lyinass is so desperate she now lies to herself! As if only those Africans with the darkest complexions like southern Sudanese are now black!!
No it was the definition tht alTak came up with:
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.:
This is the game that's going on here
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately, most works of the Arabs will refer to the lands of Africans unconverted or on the borders of Islam simply by a synonym for black. This is the same trend in European writings as well. Not to mention that many European writers will use Moor, Arab, Negro and Berber rather haphazardly in some older works from North Africa, making it almost impossible to get the sort of precise ethnic break down many people would like to have.
^^^^yes the thing is there is no precise ethnic break down of words like "Moor" and "Berber" because the terms are innately imprecise
alTak says go back to the Greek use of "Moor" Why do that if we are talking about the period of the Isamic conquest of Iberia? These people didn't even call themselves Moors for Allah's sake.
O.K you wanna go back to the Greeks?
quote:Originally posted by the alTaruri Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.:
So now we have a word even more vague and imprecise than "Moor" and "Berber" -"Black"
more vague and imprecise as per the use of the Greek word for "black" in ancient times and the game is to take for granted it means what Americans mean, not all dark skinned people, not dark Pakistanis or dark Syrians but only people with tightly coiled afro kiny hair, full lips and wide nostrils.
notice the flip flopping and acrobatics:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Angkor Wat(sp?) is not an African civilization. But beyond all doubt it is an Asian one and it is black. This is the prime point I'm making about denied black heritage of SE Asia.
The secondary point is consistancy in ascribing black to colour regardless of continent. Black is black.
A third point is to counter the black but not negro or very dark but not black concept.
I'm not picking on DJ who has the right of self determination to label himself green if he so wills. But I am picking on his two edged sword application of black cutting both ways i.e., skin colour only and sociologically only. Can't have it one way for one people and the other for another people. Black is black or it isn't. And if it isn't then don't apply it to any people.
quote:Originally posted by the alTaruri Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.:
^^^^the mysterious separation between "Black" and "dark"
excerpts from
BLACKS IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD,
Frank M. Snowden, Howard University
The word Afer (African), however, was generally employed by the Romans to designate populations of the coastal regions of North Africa west of Egypt (e.g. Numidians, Moors), of the Carthaginians and their allies, and of the inhabitants of the Roman province of Africa. "African," as an adjective, is applied only once to a clearly Negroid type--the detailed description of a black woman in a poem, the Moretum, written in dactylic hexameter. The use of Afer as a cognomen may also in another instance, because of additional evidence, have indicated Negroid extraction--in the name of the well-known Latin poet, Publius Terentius Afer. [10] These usages however, are exceptions, and the only Greek or Latin word that commonly referred to an unquestionably Negroid type, it must be emphasized, was Aithiops (Aethiops), Ethiopian, literally a person with a burnt skin, a colored person--a word that described a variety of black or Negroid types characterized by combinations of dark or black skin, wooly or tightly coiled hair, thick lips, and flat or broad noses. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples--Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors--who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these--Ethiopians--as unmistakably Negroid. To summarize this point, there is no justification to equate Egyptians, Moors or any other north Africans, with Ethiopians, even when a color-word is applied to them, unless details are given as to other physical traits such as color, hair, nose, or lips, or unless there is additional evidence to support an equivalence with Ethiopian. The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks, far fewer than in the art of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. [16]
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
^^^^^ !
.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
going for snowden here is like going for nizkor site in your holocau$t beatdown: worthless.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: going for snowden here is like going for nizkor site in your holocau$t beatdown: worthless.
what is your favorite website for accurate WWII information?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You had so many Slave populations moving in and around the Mediterranean area. What the Middle Ages marks is the introduction of areas out side the old area of Roman Mediterranean influence. You see the Niger Area, the beggining of the Northern Europeans, more importance placed on China and India etc.
In my opinion the Taureg probably best represent the Classical Moorish Culture, esp. for the simple fact that they still retain mannerisms and Culture documented by the Almoravids. The fact that the Taureg Men still wear the veil and their women don't and that the Spere of Influence of the Taureg in around the Niger and old Sahran Trade Routes testifies to this.
BTW, The Taureg had alot of influence on Timbuctu and Mali. Many of the Scholars were Tauregs. The Scholars of Walata still havethe original Almoravid manuscripts in their libraries, So it can be argued that Mali was Moorish in influence if in fact the Taureg are descendants on the Almoravids.
Scholars of Timbuktu
The following is a partial list of the scholars of Timbuktu. They’re so many of them that we decided to give a brief account of only a few:
All the scholars of Timbuktu shared the following divine qualities: they combined the practice of the commands of the Holy Scriptures with the science of the purification of the heart and the soul. In other words, through the practice of Tassawuf or purification of the heart from of all evil characteristics, they were able to walk in the footsteps of God's prophets. As a result, they have experienced spiritual states and divine insights not accessible by ordinary worshipers with blind hearts. They adhered to righteousness, piety, self-denial, truth, devotional worships, God's conciousness, excellence of character, spiritual tranquility, eminence, and sincerity in all their actions. They were Maliki scholars and followed the Tarika or spiritual path of the Qaadiriya. The founder of this inner spiritual order is Sheik Abd Al Qaadir Al Gaylani. He was a descendent of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). . He followed in the path of love and sincerity of the Messenger of God and achieved the highest degree of nearness to God.
Modibo Mohammed Al Kaburi He was a Fulani, a Jurist and Judge. He was fortunate to be a companion to many righteous scholars of the Sankore University. He was the scholar who developed the curriculum of Sankore. He was also known for his pious and devotional character.
Al Qadi Al Hajj He was an eminent Jurist from Walata. God blessed Al Qadi with the function of Chief Judge of Timbuktu. He ordered the people of Timbuktu to recite half of a "hizb"or part of the Qur'an after noon and evening prayers.
Abu Abdallah And Ag Mohammed ibn Mohammed ibn Uthman He was a Tuareg Jurist and had a wealth of knowledge. He was a virtuous and righteous man. He was descended from Ahmed Baba es Sudane. He was appointed Judge of Timbuktu.
Sheik Sidi Abu Al Barakaat Mahmud ibn Umar ibn Aqit He was also known as Sheik Al Islam Abu Al Barakaat. He was the Supreme Judge of Timbuktu, Imam and the Dean of Sankore University. He was firm, pious, humble, modest, and had an excellent mastery of the Arabic language.
Al Moctar Ag Mohammed ibn Utman He is known as An-Nahawi, meaning the grammarian. He was brilliant and was endowed by Allah with knowledge in all Islamic branches.
Abd Arahman Ag Mohammed ibn Utman the name Ag, usually referred to "son of"-a common name among Tuareg scholars. Abd Arahman was a learned professor; he was gentle, and possessed Taqwa or God's concisouness.
Abu Al Abbas Ahmad Buryu ibn And Ag Mohammed ibn Utman Humble, he yearned for the hereafter; Abu Al Abbas was not only pious, he was a great source of knowledge. Most scholars of Sankore benefited from his abundant wealth of knowledge.
Abu Abdallah And Ag Mohammed ibn Al Moctar 'n-Nawahi He was appointed as the Imam and Dean of Sankore by the Qadi Mahmud. Like his father An-Nawahi, he was known for his excellent command of the Arabic language. Every year during the month of Ramadan, he gave captivating and fascinating commentaries of the "Kitab Ashiffa" of Qadi Iyad. The Ashiffa is a spiritual biography of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
Al Moctar ibn Mohammed ibn Al Moctar 'n-Nawahi ibn and Ag Mohammed He was a Jurist, he loved singing the praises of the Messenger of God; he spent a great deal of his wealth for the "Festivities of Maulid" or the birthday of the Prophet.
Ahmed Baba Es Sudane Descendent of Umar ibn Mohammed Aqit the Tuareg. He liked to be called Ahmed Baba, the black. At an early age, he dedicated his time to learning until he surpassed all his peers and contemporaries. He was the matchless Jurist, scholar and Imam of his time. His reputation spread all over Sub-Sahara Africa and North Africa. The Jurists of Timbuktu sought his advise in matters pertaining to legal decisions. He was a storehouse of Islamic knowledge. He firmly stood on truth in face of the Amirs and Kings. He had a library of 1600 manuscripts that was plundered during the Moroccan invasion of Timbuktu. He was deported to Fez in 1593. He authored 60 books (more than Shakespeare had written). He was called “Standard of Standards” by the Moroccans. He was also the student of the eminent black scholar Mohammed Bagayogo. He wrote excellent books on theology, grammar, history and Jurisprudence.
Mohammed Bagayogo Es Sudane Al Wangari Al Timbukti His ancestors were the black scholars Wangari of the blessed city of Jenne. He was the Sheik and professor of Ahmed Baba Es Sudan. He was born in Timbuktu. He did all his studies in Timbuktu. He was one of the most eminent professors of both Sidi Yahya and Sankore Universities. He was without doubt a veritable Doctor of Islamic Sciences. This was confirmed when he stopped in Cairo on his way to Mecca. The scholars of Al Azhar University conferred on him the title of Doctor. He was a Jurist well versed in all branches of Islamic knowledge. He had a very busy schedule and loved imparting knowledge to people with great patience. He would loan his books to his students and friends and would not ask for them back. He was sincere in his intentions and actions. He loved people and people loved him. He was given the position of the supreme Judge of Timbuktu, which he kindly declined for fear of being unjust toward people. He lectured in all the Universities of the city. He wrote his own personal copies of the Holy Qur'an which are today with his descendent Baba Muhmud Hassay the actual Imam of Sidi Yahya Masjid. He possessed absolute mastery in the areas of Jurisprudence, Arabic Grammar, Prophetic Traditions, Logic, etc. He imparted knowledge to his students as well as received knowledge from them. He was humble and accepted truth wherever it came from.
The Professors and Imams of Jingaray Ber: Jingaray Ber was built by Mansa Musa in 1325. This Masjid or University is 700 years old. Every Friday 9,000 people pray in this blessed Mosque. Among the list of eminent Scholars and Imams of the University of Jingare Ber are: Kaatib Musa, Sidi Abd Allah Al Balbali, Sidi Abu Al Kassim Tuwaati, Sidi Mansur Al Fezani, Ibrahim z-Zulfi, Ahmad the father of Nana Surgu (meaning the father of Nana the Tuareg woman), Sidi Ali Al Jazuli, Siddiq ibn Mohammed Ta'alla, Uthman ibn Al Hassan ibn Al Hajj at Tishiti, Mohammed Gididu al Fulani, Imam Ahmad ibn Imam Saddiq, Abd Arahman ibn Sayeed, Baba Alpha and Abderahman Ben Assuyut, the actual Imam.
The Professors and Imams of Sankore University: As we said earlier, the Sankore Masjid was first built by Mandika people around the 12th century. It is located in the northeast district of Timbuktu. A Wangara or Mandika woman financed Sankore University making it the leading center of learning in West Africa at that time. The Moors and the Tuareg Sanhaja settled in the Sankore district around the 13th century. They contributed significantly to the intellectual life of the city. Sankore became very famous in the history of the University of Timbuktu. Among the scholars of Sankore are: Abu Al Baraaka, Mohammed Bagayogo, Ahmed Baba, And Ag Mohammed, Al Aqib ibn Faqi Muhmud, Abu Bakr ibn Ahmad Biru, Abd Arahman ibn Faqi Mahmud, Mohammed ibn Mohammed Kara and the actual Imam.
The Professors and Imams of Sidi Yahya University: The Masjid of Sidi Yahya was built by Mohammed Naddi, one of the governors of the city appointed by the Mandika Dynasty. Mohammed Naddi was a friend of the Saint Sidi Yahya Al Andulusi. Sidi Yahya was the first Imam, scholar, professor, and saint of this Masjid. After him, there were: Mohammed Bagayogo, Saddiq, Mohammed Ben Al Wangari, Mohammed Ben Sayeed, Mohammed Ben Ahmadu, Ahmadu Ben Abdallah, Saleh Ben Mohammed, Salmay Al Wangari, Bagno Wangari, Baba Wangari, Ahmadu Bagno, Baba Alpha Umar, Al Imam Ahmadu, and the existing Imam Baba Mahmud Hassay, may Allah bless them for their valuable contributions.
Even with the fame of Timbuctu people still dont understand how important it was and the role it played in the Western frontier of Islam. You had Native African Sonnike and Mande people from Ghana, Tauregs and other Moorish Berbers fleeing Andalusia, Arabs, Egyptians and other Eastern Muslims, but the important thing was it was a BLACK Intellectual center.
The Moroccans and their European allies did more than destroy Timbuctu they destroyed a place where Moors, Berbers and other Africans came together in peace for the sole purpose of Higher Education.
Then the Portuguese disrupted the Tras-Saharan Trade routes, in effect similar to what happened to Axum, Timbuctu declined, African Intellectualism declined etc.
As Dr. Keita says its up to us not European and sympathizers who think in a Eurocentric mindset to do our History. We will have to learn Arabic, Geez/Amharic, Egyptian, Swahili and go abroad and translate these texts with out Eurocentric baggage.
Our Ancestors deserve that much.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well specifically concerning North West Africa, the fact is that ethnic divisions truly did exist as a result of the Arab conquest. And when you get into Spain it gets even worse. Now, you must also remember the great span of time that separates say the Almoravid period, from the formation of the modern Moroccan state. So you have to take into account the historical periods and take into context the documentation based on the time frame. For example: ancient pre-Roman, Phoenician North West Africa, Roman North West Africa, Early Islamic North West Africa and Al Andalus, North West Africa after 1500, Colonial North West Africa and the present day.
Some people would like to pretend that things have remained fixed but that is very much not the case. Things have changed a lot.
Now, concerning Berber identity moving from the coasts and being an ancient prehistoric pattern of whites in North Africa, note the history of the Ait Atta. They only come on the scene in the 16th century. And they started expanding against neighboring tribes. At this time they also coined the term Haratin to refer to the indigenous blacks of Southern Morocco whom they subjugated. This expansion reached its height into the 19th century. So you see this is is something that reflects recent patterns in Morocco and not simply an ancient prehistoric legacy. Who was in the Atlas and Draa at the time of the Almoravids? What was the population like at the time of the Almohads? And how do the populations there now compare to the populations back then? We probably won't be able to answer that but the point is the same.
Likewise, when the Almohads and ALmoravids existed, Morocco and Mauritania did not exist as we now know it. And then came Arab subjugation of Mauritatia in the 1600s when the berber tribes there were arabized and assimilated. So again it makes any attempt to portray ethnic populations as fixed or static almost impossible.
Then you had the white slave trade in North Africa and Morocco from the 1500s to 1800s, along with the African slave trade into the 20th century. In fact, in Islamic Spain, Muslims often sold Berber slaves along with Christian slaves, Slavic people and other Africans. You also had the expulsion of Moriscos and Jews from Spain in the 1600s who were sent to North Africa.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Another interesting fact linking the Moors and the Tauregs etc. is the Colthing on the black Andalucian Muslims from the book of Games..
Notice the similarities. Notice the loose fitting and the Blue on one of the Men in the Book of Games. Notice the Head covering on the one next to the Woman and on the far right. Also you can see on the man in Yellow their Veil. Their colothing like that of the Taureg is typical of Saharan peoples who crossed the deserts etc. IMO these black men represent authentic Berbers.
a Cleaner version..
We know that the Tauregs can get quite dark, I would not be suprised if the Taureg not the "Negro Bantu" is the origin of the Black Moor Heads and the Pitch Black as Coal image in the Song of Roland.
They certainly had an impact on the Andalucians when they invaded with the Almoravids.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Also these Leuko Mahgrebi Berbers who claim that AA don't have a connection to the Moors, need to shut their mouths. The Taureg/Moors were also victims of the slave Trade.
two famous examples of AA with Taureg blood are Morgan Freeman and Tupac Shakur...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.
This is the game that's going on here
alTak says go back to the Greek use of "Moor" Why do that if we are talking about the period of the Isamic conquest of Iberia?
The importance and relatedness of the terms Mauri and Moor.
Mauri derives from Mauros, ancient and modern Greek for black.
Mauretania takes its name from its people, the Mauri.
As late as mid 6th century Greco-Latins still remark Mauretanian blackness.
By the late 7th century what was Mauretania is held by Arabic invaders.
Natives of Mauretania (Maghreb al Aksa) vanguard Iberia's Muslim conquest.
Natives of Mauretania so heavily man the Muslim armies in al~Andalus that native Iberians dub the entire ruling force as Moors, after the well known old Latin term Mauri in use for over 500 years, regardless if actual from Mauretania, Arabia, or Syria. This is the phenomena of naming a group by its majority component.
As time went on and Iberian Christians converted to Islam starting as a minority appendage of the Moor grouping and eventually becoming the majority still retaining the group general appelation Moor which in the end comprised black, tawny, and white Moors in Iberia. In the Europe north and northeast of Iberia Moor continued in the old usage, i.e., a black person and we find it rare in France, Germany, or England and Scandinavia that Moor was used otherwise in the literature from the 15th century onward.
This not too hard to see. Mauri were blacks. The native North African conquerers of Iberia in 711 descended from the Mauri. Thus initial Moorish identity was a North African black identity, not "Western Sudanese." Moor was applied before "Western Sudanese" regiments from Tekrur joined the al~Murabitun conquest 3-4 centuries later.
Because of this fact, native NA Moors spearheading and numerically dominating the initial conquest, all Muslims in Iberia eventually got to be called Moors.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
troll handbook: when the etymology is not in your favor, simply call it "games".
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Word is that the name Senegal derives from the Sanhaja Kel Tamasheq groups. Do you have any primary document(s) dating to an era before Islamic times that suggest the southward area of western Sahara/Sahel was not populated by Tamazight speakers? Do you even have documents during the Islamic era whereby we are told that conemporaneous Tamazight speakers did not populate southward areas of the Sahara and Sahel? It was in fact the arrival of islam/Arabs which caused Berbers to migrate southward from Morocco under Arab pressure into the Senegal Valley and beyond to the plains of the Futa Toro. Do you dispute this
Your claim lacks support on the genetic front.
I was going to ask you about the prevalence of Berber markers in Senegal namely E-M81?
{b]Can you be a bit more precise here: Are you speaking of say, coastal northern Kabyle "light-skin" type, or something else?[/b]
More like Middle Eastern.. Here are some pictures of "White" moorish folk.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Its funny the lengths people will go to to deny the Truth. LMAO at the idea that the Moorish Calvery looks like the Romans, well uhh Duh its a f-king RELIEF...However we know the Moors are wearing a distinctive wig hair piece...
So lets see how the Romans depicted people who sport that Wig/Hair style in BUSTS shall we..
Notice the similarities in the Hair/Wig of the Busts from Tunis and the Moorish Calvery..Im sure Garrig will chalk it up to Slaves and Lyin-ass will find a thick lipped European
\ Slaves? But Jari logically Greek and Romans would have encountered some black tribes from the interior. Some likely came to work in the cities. The Vandals mention Blacks. But now do those buts represent the typical coastal nortg African? I think not. And I could post all kinds of busts and images of North African from Roman times which show them to be Midde Eastern looking. I'm sure you have already seen some of them.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well specifically concerning North West Africa, the fact is that ethnic divisions truly did exist as a result of the Arab conquest. And when you get into Spain it gets even worse. Now, you must also remember the great span of time that separates say the Almoravid period, from the formation of the modern Moroccan state. So you have to take into account the historical periods and take into context the documentation based on the time frame. For example: ancient pre-Roman, Phoenician North West Africa, Roman North West Africa, Early Islamic North West Africa and Al Andalus, North West Africa after 1500, Colonial North West Africa and the present day.
Some people would like to pretend that things have remained fixed but that is very much not the case. Things have changed a lot.
Now, concerning Berber identity moving from the coasts and being an ancient prehistoric pattern of whites in North Africa, note the history of the Ait Atta. They only come on the scene in the 16th century. And they started expanding against neighboring tribes. At this time they also coined the term Haratin to refer to the indigenous blacks of Southern Morocco whom they subjugated. This expansion reached its height into the 19th century. So you see this is is something that reflects recent patterns in Morocco and not simply an ancient prehistoric legacy. Who was in the Atlas and Draa at the time of the Almoravids? What was the population like at the time of the Almohads? And how do the populations there now compare to the populations back then? We probably won't be able to answer that but the point is the same.
Likewise, when the Almohads and ALmoravids existed, Morocco and Mauritania did not exist as we now know it. And then came Arab subjugation of Mauritatia in the 1600s when the berber tribes there were arabized and assimilated. So again it makes any attempt to portray ethnic populations as fixed or static almost impossible.
Then you had the white slave trade in North Africa and Morocco from the 1500s to 1800s, along with the African slave trade into the 20th century. In fact, in Islamic Spain, Muslims often sold Berber slaves along with Christian slaves, Slavic people and other Africans. You also had the expulsion of Moriscos and Jews from Spain in the 1600s who were sent to North Africa.
An intelligent post. So what do you think the coatal Berbers looked liked at the advent of the Islamic era?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [QUOTE] Slaves? But Jari logically Greek and Romans would have encountered some black tribes from the interior. Some likely came to work in the cities.
The Greeks and Romans called Africans of the interior Athiopies/Ethiopians. This does not change the fact that the Greeks called the Natives of MAuritania Mauros/black.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [QUOTE]The Vandals mention Blacks. But now do those buts represent the typical coastal nortg African? I think not.
It doesn't matter what you or I think. Nothing you have disproves the etymology Moors as applied to the natives of Mauritania.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And I could post all kinds of busts and images of North African from Roman times which show them to be Midde Eastern looking. I'm sure you have already seen some of them.
What do you have Juba and Phonecians Elites..LMAO
Even they show some African admixture..
so Bring it on Boy...
Ivory Bangle Lady
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Malcontents seem to have a habit of talking out their asses with their opinions and thoughts as opposed to FACTS and evidence.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Also these Leuko Mahgrebi Berbers who claim that AA don't have a connection to the Moors, need to shut their mouths. The Taureg/Moors were also victims of the slave Trade.
two famous examples of AA with Taureg blood are Morgan Freeman and Tupac Shakur...
Really? Do you have a source stating this about these two black American celebrities??
By the way, did you know Morgan Freeman actually played a Moor in the 1991 movie 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves' starring Kevin Costner.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Tupac's Taureg ancestry is through his father, Billy Garland, and was a Black Panther
^^^^ Pac's father
So much for the Love and Brotherhood shown to this Eurasian Berber by his White Caucasian Bretheren
Morgan's connection is through his DNA test..
A Perfect Role for him in that Movie
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Malcontents seem to have a habit of talking out their asses with their opinions and thoughts as opposed to FACTS and evidence.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Also these Leuko Mahgrebi Berbers who claim that AA don't have a connection to the Moors, need to shut their mouths. The Taureg/Moors were also victims of the slave Trade.
two famous examples of AA with Taureg blood are Morgan Freeman and Tupac Shakur...
Really? Do you have a source stating this about these two black American celebrities??
By the way, did you know Morgan Freeman actually played a Moor in the 1991 movie 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves' starring Kevin Costner.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Of relevance to this thread Going over some of the Pictures in J.A Rogers Book Nature knows No Color Lines I wanted to make these pictures easily accessible for future reference, only draw back this all in black and white. Supplemented by Video Lecture by Dr Jose Piementa Bay
It was in fact the arrival of islam/Arabs which caused Berbers to migrate southward from Morocco under Arab pressure into the Senegal Valley and beyond to the plains of the Futa Toro. Do you dispute this
I do question your claim that the Mauritanian, Mali and Niger regions were not populated by Tamazight speakers until the Arabs pushed them there, yet while Tamazight speakers remained in coastal Areas during the Arab involvement there. Do you have those requested primary texts dating to before and during the Arab intrusions in the Maghreb, whereby we are told that Tamazight speakers did not populate regions beyond the African coast?
quote: Your claim lacks support on the genetic front.
I was going to ask you about the prevalence of Berber markers in Senegal namely E-M81?
You must agree that your claim falls short from a genetic perspective, because you answered it with a question.
Your question would make sense, if Tamazight speakers still lived in that area in meaningful numbers. Do they? I want to know this, before I give you an answer.
quote:
More like Middle Eastern.. Here are some pictures of "White" moorish folk.
I like how you pick photos as though they were objective. Care to share with me what "White Middle Eastern" nationality's citizens look like these "Moorish" personalities. Where do these "Moorish" folks come from; Mauritania?
That some Mauritanians can be a bit light on pigmentation should not surprise anyone, considering that they generally occupy intermediate (genetic) positions between extreme north Tamazight groups and West Africans south and next to Mauritania.
These Mauritanians may also interest you:
Recalling the Kesra individuals of Tunisia; the Kesra are understood be a branch of Sanhaja Amazigh group, the group where the al-Murabitun (Almoravids) largely came from:
Again, you should try to get in touch with what is said in medieval Spanish text about the general who led Almoravid force into Spain. Right now, you are letting your emotions do the talking.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What the Middle Ages marks is the introduction of areas out side the old area of Roman Mediterranean influence. You see the Niger Area, the beggining of the Northern Europeans, more importance placed on China and India etc.
Not implying complex culture in the Niger Area starts in the "Middle Ages", are you?
quote:
In my opinion the Taureg probably best represent the Classical Moorish Culture, esp. for the simple fact that they still retain mannerisms and Culture documented by the Almoravids. The fact that the Taureg Men still wear the veil and their women don't and that the Spere of Influence of the Taureg in around the Niger and old Sahran Trade Routes testifies to this.
BTW, The Taureg had alot of influence on Timbuctu and Mali. Many of the Scholars were Tauregs. The Scholars of Walata still havethe original Almoravid manuscripts in their libraries, So it can be argued that Mali was Moorish in influence if in fact the Taureg are descendants on the Almoravids.
The Kel Tamasheq were a part of the Mali complex, as were many other ethnic groups. All these groups made a contribution to the growth of the polity. However, the Mali complex, like its predecessor, was primarily Mande driven. The Mande group were innovators in west Africa.
BTW, what do you understand by "Tuareg blood"?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Let's have some fun here.
Malouma Mint Moktar Ould Meidah was born in the sixties in Mederdra (Trarza), into a family of griots.
(for those that don't know, Griots is a classical West African [musical] tradition. Griots descent from Griots. One cannot become a Griot by choice. One is born as, into a Griot by blood. "This part explains a lot on dark-skinned Moors, and the Griot-Moorish tradition". Time to add another group to the Moorish bunch)
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Word is that the name Senegal derives from the Sanhaja Kel Tamasheq groups. Do you have any primary document(s) dating to an era before Islamic times that suggest the southward area of western Sahara/Sahel was not populated by Tamazight speakers? Do you even have documents during the Islamic era whereby we are told that conemporaneous Tamazight speakers did not populate southward areas of the Sahara and Sahel? It was in fact the arrival of islam/Arabs which caused Berbers to migrate southward from Morocco under Arab pressure into the Senegal Valley and beyond to the plains of the Futa Toro. Do you dispute this
Your claim lacks support on the genetic front.
I was going to ask you about the prevalence of Berber markers in Senegal namely E-M81?
{b]Can you be a bit more precise here: Are you speaking of say, coastal northern Kabyle "light-skin" type, or something else?[/b]
More like Middle Eastern.. Here are some pictures of "White" moorish folk.
Let's talk about all those West African markers in the Magreb. From all those West African/ sub Saharan slaves....where are they?
I asked this many times, but never received any answer.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I guess someone didn't familiarize themselves with the classical Arabic or read Wesley Muhammad's articl let along Tariq Berry's site.
The term "white" as they point out in the Arab dialect refered to somebody the color of Beyonce or millions of Afro Americans not people of Europe. And that was only in later times as before in Muhammed's time the term simply referred to the brilliant or shining and unblemished black skin.
Dhahabi, a Syrian who travelled through the Hijaz commented,
"When Arabs say, ‘so-and-so is white (abyad),’ they mean a golden brown complexion with a black appearance (al-hinãÊ al-lawn bi-hilya suda"). Like the complexion of the people of India, brown and black (asmar wa adam), i.e. a clear, refined blackness (sawad al-takrår)” .
Ibn Manzur of Tunisia 14th century, who wrote essentially the same as Dhahabi in his dictionary Lisaan al Arab said: The Arabs don’t say a man is white [or: “white man,” rajul abyad] due to a white complexion. Rather, whiteness [al-abyad] with them means an external appearance that is free from blemish; when they mean a white complexion they say ‘red’ (aÈmar)… And the Arabs ATTRIBUTE WHITE SKIN TO THE SLAVES. [emphasis mine]"
These were quoted from Tariq Berry's book and Dr. Wesley Muhammad's papers.
The Ibo also use the term "white" in the same way as the ancient Arabs as do other black Africans for their own people.
Early descriptions of Muhammed call him akhdar, later ones he is refered to as reddish white (of course by NON-ARABS) which would fall more into the "white" in the Western sense category.
Most importantly Wesley Muhammad quotes other scholars who were familiar with the term Asmar or Sumra used by al Jauzi and others for both Arabs and Abyssians. Hence the Arabians were the color of Abyssinians i.e. the Ethiopians and the southern Sudanese. This is the range of their blackness according to early writers dark golden brown of the Beja sort to jet black (shadeed al udma) of the southern Sudan or Somalia.
This is why Jahiz said if they are fair in color then they are from the Persians, slabs or Saqaliba, Rum (Byzantines) etc.
Muhammad has also put on line a paper that deals with the Chinese Muslim manuscripts in which all descriptions of Arabs are that they are black or dark brown in color.
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day. The importance and relatedness of the terms Mauri and Moor.
Mauri derives from Mauros, ancient and modern Greek for black.
Mauretania takes its name from its people, the Mauri.
As late as mid 6th century Greco-Latins still remark Mauretanian blackness.
By the late 7th century what was Mauretania is held by Arabic invaders.
what about 1st century, hundreds of years prior, Manilius whom you have quoted?:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
-Manilius, Astronomica
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Above you describe "black complexions" Manilius describes 5 different "black" complexions, shades different enough to differentiate one from the other. Notable is that here in the 1st century description Mauretanians are described least dark out of 5 distinguishable shades.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.
This is taking the meaning of a word and stating it's meaning in an isolated literal context that does not pertain to the situation that the word is used in. Obviously one of the attributes of blackness is darkness.
If a word like black is taking out of any context we have this situation:
The question is asked:
-what are the following colors?
A)
B)
The answer here is A) is black
and B) are various shades of brown.
But if we ask the same question in the context of people:
what color are black people the answer is B)
or "B) and sometimes people close to A) also"
_________________________________________________
So in fact if a word for black is used to describe people even though the word does not mean dark it is used to describe people who are not black but in fact, as per Manilius, 5 shades of dark, of brown.
going back to this:
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
1) Aethiopes 2) India 3) Aegyptia 4) Afrorum 5) Mauretania
______________^^^Kushite
You can't get darker than this particular Kushite. He would be similar to #1 on the list, the darkest
1) Aethiopes
Now skip to two levels below
3) Aegyptia (Egyptians)
I think this is fair for average skin tone It's this shade seen on not all but most of the paintings:
after that is
4) Afrorum
It means "African" in latin, Manilius uses this word together with " Phoebus"
Phoebus Afrorum and sandy dust of the earth 728 drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania
I'm not sure what people it means, some metaphor involving Apollo? The Afrorum seems to be a people of Mauritania that are differnt from "regular" Mauritanians, those at the bottom of the list of darkess, meaning the lightest of the dark.
But of note here looking back at the above Rameses relief, representing the third darkest resident of North Africa, two stages lighter than that is listed the Mauritanians. So what is an example of the fifth darkest? I'll leave it up to you
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri
there are Asians who are black and are not recently African derived.
Angkor Wat(sp?) is not an African civilization. But beyond all doubt it is an Asian one and it is black. This is the prime point I'm making about denied black heritage of SE Asia.
The secondary point is consistancy in ascribing black to colour regardless of continent. Black is black.
A third point is to counter the black but not negro or very dark but not black concept.
In other words people who are described as black in the context we are talking in are a range of brown persons and brown persons are not necessarilly African, they may or may not be Middle Eastern or from numerous places all over the world.
.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
A third point is to counter the black but not negro or very dark but not black concept.
In other words people who are described as black in the context we are talking in are a range of brown persons and brown persons are not necessarilly African, they may or may not be Middle Eastern or from numerous places all over the world.
Problem however is, we have depictions of "brown Africans" in European history. And it's clearly stated.
And the word negro stems from the words Negra, meaning BLACK.
So that claim by you made absolutely no sense.
The word Moor and Negro have in someway the same meaning. With a different etymological root.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Still waiting for the paintings of native Almoravid and Alhmohad Berbers from North West Africa in art. Seems the original poster who started the thread must have been talking nonsense out of his behind. Hence, nothing else he is discussing is of any validity or merit.
Also still waiting for the citations of the original Berber troops associated with the Almoravids and Almohads being "coastal Berbers" and/or primarily of Eurasian ancestry and therefore white.
After all these pages.
The point has already been made that since day 1 almost Arabs in North Africa have been using native blacks from the region to support their rule. These people were used like lambs to slaughter and their mistreatment caused no end of unrest in the Medieval period, with the pattern of mixed Arab, Eurasian and even Jewish folk treating them as second class folk.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Jari What do you have Juba and Phonecians Elites..LMAO Even they show some African admixture..
so Bring it on Boy...
Ok Here are some..
Masinissa first numidian king
Hiemspal II
King Jugurtha
Mauretanian Hiarbas
Bocchus
Here's a slew of Berber mosaics.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
I do question your claim that the Mauritanian, Mali and Niger regions were not populated by Tamazight speakers until the Arabs pushed them there, yet while Tamazight speakers remained in coastal Areas during the Arab involvement there. Do you have those requested primary texts dating to before and during the Arab intrusions in the Maghreb, whereby we are told that Tamazight speakers did not populate regions beyond the African coast?
Some may have been there earlier but most Berber groups orginally hail from up North. With regard to Mauritania,
"Valley cultivators, who may have been black ancestors of the riverine Toucouleur and Wolof peoples, lived alongside the Bafour. Climatic changes, and perhaps overgrazing and overcultivation as well, led to a gradual desiccation of the Sahara and the southward movement of these peoples.
In the third and fourth centuries A.D., this southward migration was intensified by the arrival of Berber groups from the north who were searching for pasturage or fleeing political anarchy and war. The wide-ranging activities of these turbulent Berber warriors were made possible by the introduction of the camel to the Sahara in this period. This first wave of Berber invaders subjugated and made vassals of those Bafour who did not flee south. Other Berber groups followed in the seventh and eighth centuries, themselves fleeing in large numbers before the Arab conquerors of the Maghrib."
You must agree that your claim falls short from a genetic perspective, because you answered it with a question. You are asking to me research this when you likely already have the answers.
I like how you pick photos as though they were objective. Care to share with me what "White Middle Eastern" nationality's citizens look like these "Moorish" personalities. Where do these "Moorish" folks come from; Mauritania?
That some Mauritanians can be a bit light on pigmentation should not surprise anyone, considering that they generally occupy intermediate (genetic) positions between extreme north Tamazight groups and West Africans south and next to Mauritania.
You miss the point. The only way you can have people so light is if they have married among themselves. Intermediate? Are you now implying that North Tamazight groups are inherently lighter? Actaully the indiginous Of Mauretania are mostly Black. The light skinned Folks who maintain their distinct pehenotype claim that they are descendants of the Moors and Arabs.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [Q
Ok Here are some..
Masinissa first numidian king
Hiemspal II
King Jugurtha
Mauretanian Hiarbas
Bocchus
[/QB]
The Rulers of Numidia were Phonecian/Punic in origin not native Africans. The later generations like Juba II at al show some admixture but they don't represent the native people. This would be like claiming the Ptolemeic dynasty represents native Egyptians, despite some alleged admixture in later generations..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [Q
Here's a slew of Berber mosaics.
[/QB]
You are so desperate it sad. None of those depict Berbers. Most are Mythical figures and others represent Wealthy Roman citizens of Africa not majority of natives. Majority of the people in Roman citie were probably Romans, a position you uphold when it suits you. I doubt a few Mosaics represent what majority of Rual and Sahran dwelling Berbers and natives look like.
Hell the mosaics from pompeii has darker folks than that..
Nice Try..
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
The Rulers of Numidia were Phonecian/Punic in origin not native Africans. The later generations like Juba II at al show some admixture but they don't represent the native people.
You might wish it were so. But most Numidian leaders were Berbers
You are so desperate it sad. None of those depict Berbers. Most are Mythical figures and others represent Wealthy Roman citizens of Africa not majority of natives. Majority of the people in Roman citie were probably Romans, a position you uphold when it suits you. I doubt a few Mosaics represent what majority of Rual and Sahran dwelling Berbers and natives look like.
Thats what you choose to believe. Of course the only way you would beleive that they were Native Africans is if they were Black. Lol. Which means there is no getting through to you. You're problem is that you NEED for them to be Black, I don't.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Ok Here are some..
Masinissa first numidian king
Hiemspal II
King Jugurtha
Mauretanian Hiarbas
Bocchus
[/QB]
The Rulers of Numidia were Phonecian/Punic in origin not native Africans. The later generations like Juba II at al show some admixture but they don't represent the native people.
Many historians say that the Moors derive from the Numidians. Later as we know after Islamic Spain/Portugal the term "Moor" was changed to mean "any African" . The is no set meaning to the word. The people didn't call themselves this.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Here's a slew of Berber mosaics.
[/QB]
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari
You are so desperate it sad. None of those depict Berbers. Most are Mythical figures and others represent Wealthy Roman citizens of Africa not majority of natives. Majority of the people in Roman citie were probably Romans, a position you uphold when it suits you. I doubt a few Mosaics represent what majority of Rual and Sahran dwelling Berbers and natives look like.
Hell the mosaics from pompeii has darker folks than that..
Nice Try.. [/QB]
It's the same thing as with the term "Moor", "Berber" is another term with no fixed meaning. Not a term the people applied to themselves. It is a loose term in terms applied to natives of Africa as well as vaious mixtures of people who speak and practice Berber language and culture, people comprised of various mixtures of native Africans and descendants of Cartheginians, Vandals, Phoenicians, Romans, Arabs, etc. This going back at least 3,000 years much of it prior to the theory of fake Berbers which ignores all this and says that all people called Berber who look European or partially European are soley derived from white slaves of the Barbary Corsairs and therefore are not real Berbers. Try telling this to the Imazighen
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
You might wish it were so. But most Numidian leaders were Berbers
Also to be clear I don't need to wish anything. I already told you back on another thread that by judging from Egyptian art there were Yellowish Temehu people in Lybia probably Coastal European Migrants. These people could have mixed with the original Berbers and other Africans or they could have formed their own tribes, who knows. However there were Black Numidians and black Berbers.
BTW, none of those people come from the Mauros tribes but the Massylii. There were many different Berber Tribes including the Garamantes whom the Taureg descended from.
The idea of some unified Berber race has no bases as Berber is a language group, and Berbers differ in looks.
Thats what you choose to believe. Of course the only way you would beleive that they were Native Africans is if they were Black. Lol. Which means there is no getting through to you. You're problem is that you NEED for them to be Black, I don't.
I never said the North africans or even the Berbers are all black. I said there were white and black Berbers. Stop with the Strawman fallacy...You are the one trying to make any black Berber of slave decent. So its no getting through you. I does'nt matter what you need, the truth speaks for itself.
As I said earlier, in another debate when I suggested the Romans could have effected the Lighter Coastal Berbers, you bitched about the Romans only living in cities, and the Berbers living in Rual Areas. When the White slavery is brought up you bitch about the Berbers being mainly Rural and not living in cities, Yet you will bend over backward and contradict yourself so you can push you Mathilda inspired Mosaics.
As I said majority of them are fictional and mythical and the rest are made for Wealthy Romans in Africa. A few depict a valid scene in a North African city but again is it 100% accurate image of all Berbers at this time???. There were light North Africans/Berbers and Dark Berbers(Lybians) as indicated from Egypt, the Darker Berbers probably lived more inland like the Garamantes etc.
Some Images you and Mathilda wont post...
Moorish Calvary
This bronze figurine, originally seated on a horse, shows a Moor from the Roman province of Mauretania in North Africa. He has distinctive dreadlocks, a drooping moustache and a full beard. His eyes appear very lifelike because they are inlaid with silver. He wears leather boots and a short cloak over a tunic, and he holds his round shield in front of him. His right hand, now broken, would probably have held a spear.
Moorish cavalrymen rode without bridles and as early as the second century BC they were famous for their nimble horsemanship. They were deployed as specialist units in the Roman army, and a detachment is clearly depicted in one of the sculpted battle scenes on Trajan's Column in Rome (erected about AD 113). There they are shown fighting alongside Roman troops in the Emperor Trajan's Dacian Wars (AD 101-105).
Also Im not stuck on some True Negro/Caucasian Trip. As I said there were leuko/Yellowish Berbers as indicated by the Egyptians..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Where did I say anything about some "Fake" Berbers and where did I say all the White Berbers descend from European Barbary slavery??
Dumb rancid ass two dollar bitch..don't put word in my mouth.
1) I have said there are white and black berbers..
2) I have said Coastal Europeans probably migrated to North Africa froming the Leuko Lybians depicted by the Egyptians..
So f-k off bitch. What I find funny is how you won't say sh#t to Garrig when he rants about every Black berber posted here is of slave Ancestry but have a cow when the European Barbary slavery is mentioned.
You really serve no purpose on this forum other than being a mild annoyance, replacing Argyle104 in you irrelevance and trolling. Which Is why my posting to you has declined recently. Even Garrig who is just a Eurocentric apologizer has some legitimate arguments every blue moon...
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
"Berber" is another term with no fixed meaning. Not a term the people applied to themselves. It is a loose term in terms applied to natives of Africa as well as vaious mixtures of people who speak and practice Berber language and culture, people comprised of various mixtures of native Africans and descendants of Cartheginians, Vandals, Phoenicians, Romans, Arabs, etc. This going back at least 3,000 years much of it prior to the theory of fake Berbers which ignores all this and says that all people called Berber who look European or partially European are soley derived from white slaves of the Barbary Corsairs and therefore are not real Berbers. Try telling this to the Imazighen [/QB]
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
The idea of some unified Berber race has no bases as Berber is a language group, and Berbers differ in looks. That much is true.
I never said the North africans or even the Berbers are all black. I said there were white and black Berbers. Stop with the Strawman fallacy...You are the one trying to make any black Berber of slave decent.
No I never said all Black Berbers are of slave descent. Berbers assimilated Blacks as they moved southward. But of course some were enslaved.
As I said earlier, in another debate when I suggested the Romans could have effected the Lighter Coastal Berbers, you bitched about the Romans only living in cities, and the Berbers living in Rual Areas. When the White slavery is brought up you bitch about the Berbers being mainly Rural and not living in cities
And yet both positions are legit based on the specific circumstances. I would think that the offspring of Romans and Berbers would tend to be urbanized folk. Probably more Roman in culture. After the Byzantines, the Arabs took over the cities. I don't think any Berber culture would have remained there. Berber culture survived because many were semi-isolated. That's the key.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
No I never said all Black Berbers are of slave descent. Berbers assimilated Blacks as they moved southward. But of course some were enslaved.
There were black Berbers before any southward movement?? Who do you think the Garamantes were, the Siwa, the Berbers of the Meshwesh dynasties, the Mauros etc.
And yet both positions are legit based on the specific circumstances.
Yet these circumstances depend on what agenda you are trying to push.
I would think that the offspring of Romans and Berbers would tend to be urbanized folk. Probably more Roman in culture. After the Byzantines, the Arabs took over the cities. I don't think any Berber culture would have remained there. Berber culture survived because many were semi-isolated. That's the key.
If more Berbers were Semi Isolated, lived in Rural Areas and the main folks to live in the cities were Roman Berber Mulattoes, Romans Byzantines and then later Arabs, how the hell does that square with your earlier post that the Moasaics all depict Berbers, if ACCORDING TO YOU The Berbers were mainly isolated, Nomadic and or rural?? Adn don't get me wrong, Im not denying some of the Ligher folks esp. the workers and fishermen were natives and or "Berbers" but to claim every single mosaic is a berber or to even use the Mosaics as proof of Berbers is the epitomy of desperation.
The to make matters worse you will claim the Moorish calvary vaces from Tunis as not representing the populations but put up a few coins and a few mythical mosaics and claim that they represent the Berbers, but turn around and contradict yourself about Berbers living in cities when slavery is bought up and the fact that Romans tended to mix with natives.
and I will bet some of the Numidian Kings woulb be dark skinned, just as the Mulatto Septimius Severus with European White blood was Darker than his white wife. Even that would not get through your skull of the reality of black Berbers, Mauritanians and Numidians.
And you call me desperate...
and you claim I need for the Berbers to be a certain way..
LMAO, you are a joke. It obvious no amount of evidence, from the Moorish Calvary Vaces, the etymology of Moor, the descriptions from Vandals etc. nothing will change your white washing agenda...
Typical Topic poster, a bunch of spinning in circles, chest beating never ending arguments, etc no results.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
If more Berbers were Semi Isolated, lived in Rural Areas and the main folks to live in the cities were Roman Berber Mulattoes, Romans Byzantines and then later Arabs, how the hell does that square with your earlier post that the Moasaics all depict Berbers, if ACCORDING TO YOU The Berbers were mainly isolated, Nomadic and or rural?? Adn don't get me wrong, Im not denying some of the Ligher folks esp. the workers and fishermen were natives and or "Berbers" but to claim every single mosaic is a berber or to even use the Mosaics as proof of Berbers is the epitomy of desperation
You ain't getting it. There were many folks of Berber origin that lived in the cities. Many were even roman citzens. One famous Berber was St Augustine who wrote a great deal about his life. Those Berbers who were Romanized did not likely contribute to the Berbers today. You had asked me about the Romans contributing to the light skinned Berbers. They may have contributed to the light skinned North Africans in general but the Berbers are a tribal people who preserve their identity by remaining apart.
and I will bet some of the Numidian Kings woulb be dark skinned, just as the Mulatto Septimius Severus with European White blood was Darker than his white wife. Even that would not get through your skull of the reality of black Berbers, Mauritanians and Numidians
That's where we disgaree. You use the term Mulatto as if you are so sure the Numidians were Black. I don't believe they were, I believe they were simply somewhat swarthy folks like Gadaffi with some Black tribes from the interior who came to do business in the cities etc. If the Berbers were Black then St Auguatine must have been Black, as well as a lot of other historical people. If this were true I'm sure there would be some historical corroboration.
And Moor coming from Phoenician has not been disproven. I shown that both Hebrew and Arabic has similar words.
You yourself acknowledge that there were Eurasian looking Moors in Libya..but not Tunisia?? Yes the Vandals did make mention of Blacks and they were rather racist. Yet a number of vandals wore asorbed by Berber tribes. Were these the Blacks the vandals spoke ill of, or Berbers like the Libyans? I find it highly unlikely that the offspring of Vandals and Blacks would retain light features down to this day. They would need a constant supply of vandals for that, down trhough the centuries. If a few thousand vandals mixed with the many tribes of Blacks, in a couple of generations they would all be Black maybe with some occasional persons with light brown skin or a few with green or grey eyes now and then. But the Black phenotype will definitely dominate.
The only reason that we go in circles is because of your refusal accept what you know is likely true. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:I don't believe they were, I believe
why the fuk are people arguing with this idiot's beliefs?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ We're not. We're merely toying with them (his beliefs).
^ These women are obviously of mixed black descent though they obviously have their faces caked with make-up or skin-lightening cream which is notoriously used in North Africa.
^ A fair-skinned girl playing an AFRICAN musical instrument proves what?
^ Another light-skinned woman of black descent.
As for your so-called "Berbers"...
^ It is a Greco-Roman mosaic of GRECO-ROMAN deities and themes, idiot! There are a couple of native Berbers portrayed. Guess which ones. I'll give you a clue, look for those with very dark complexions. LOL
In the meantime what do you make of these mosaics of Berbers?..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
It's official. The lyinass is so desperate she now lies to herself! As if only those Africans with the darkest complexions like southern Sudanese are now black!!
No it was the definition that alTak came up with:
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri Mauros did not originally mean dark, it meant black and still does in the Greek tongue till this very day.:
Where oh where in al Takruri say anything about darkest Africans? He merely and correctly states that Mauros (Moor) meant BLACK.
quote:This is the game that's going on here
Yes your game of denying that these men below are black is absurd and nobody is playing it but your dumbass.
GTFOH Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
@melchior
I can't stop laughing at your shenanigans, anything but put up an entry in a lexicon by a linguist that shows either mauros derived from mahur or two roots m-h-r (mem-heh-resh) / m-g-r- (mem-gimel-resh).
How does it help you to erringly regurgitate me? "m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it."
The error being a fictional word (Ma)Urobh -- introducing yet a third root, m-w-r-b (mem-waw-resh-beth) -- where in fact it is ma`arab (מַּעֲרָב) at Psalm 103:12.
This is what happens when you rely on encyclopedias and internet blogs in lieu of perusing accepted academic standards, you get a beliefs not facts.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You ain't getting it.
No you are the one who is not "getting it"...
There were many folks of Berber origin that lived in the cities. Many were even roman citzens. One famous Berber was St Augustine who wrote a great deal about his life.
As I said it contradicts your whole damn premise that the Berbers were Nomadic people. I mean seriously your mind exists on a plane where human habitation fits what you want to believe. IF Berbers flocked to the VERY FEW Cities during the Roman times, why in the hell would they not flock to cities during the Islamic Era esp. after many of their people like the Almohad and Almoravids controled the Mehgreb, Western Sudan and Andalucia.
You will make an exception for Berbers flocking to the Roman cities so you can put up those mosaics to bolster your argument. However when it comes to the Islamic period you know about the effects and scale of the White European slave Trade in North Africa, and lets be clear we are not just talking about the 19th century trade, Du probably the late Roman Area to Early Islam and def. in the Andalucian era white slaves were heavily trafficed in North Africa and Andalucia.
You know what this would mean but you are too chicken **** so you claim the Berbers in the Roman era lived in cities then during Islam were Rural and Nomadic..
SMH...
You had asked me about the Romans contributing to the light skinned Berbers. They may have contributed to the light skinned North Africans in general but the Berbers are a tribal people who preserve their identity by remaining apart.
What do you think happened when Rome Fell?? Did not the North Africans do as the Brits, Romans, etc did when Rome fell and returned to Rural lifestyles.. Let me guess these Roman Africans and Berber Mulattoes just vanished out into thin air.
That's where we disgaree. You use the term Mulatto as if you are so sure the Numidians were Black.
Where did I say anything about the Numidians?? I was talking about Septimius Severus. You saw his damn picture, If you can't see his darker skin and African features you are being dishonest. The man was Half Italian yet was Darker than his white Wife. His hair on his Busts is thicker. If the Berbers were all Lilly white WTF went on with Septimious?? BTW, he was the Emperor who established the Moorish Calvary, and you saw how they were depicted..but yeah you will just cover your eyes like a child and pretend you never saw it..
If the Berbers were Black then St Auguatine must have been Black, as well as a lot of other historical people. If this were true I'm sure there would be some historical corroboration.
St. Augustine is a perfect example of what Im talking about. It is assumed he was only part Berber, probably Roman, Berber and Punic in origin.
Im sure he would look similar to Septimius. Quite Dark with finer features, or more Tawny.
Moroccans ^^^^ Their Black heritage is obvious no matter how much they hate SSA.
And Moor coming from Phoenician has not been disproven. I shown that both Hebrew and Arabic has similar words.
Dude you are unbeliveable. Your dishonesty is speechless, I can't even find words. First off even if you are right, the Term Mauros was applied to a Tribe that had nothing to do with being West or else every single person would be called Mauros in Roman times.
Altakruri proved the west refers to Magreb nor Mauros.
You have offered no evidence for this dude..LMAO. I mean its so pathetic Garrig, posting a link to Google is your proof..LMAO.
Your antics will not change the etymology of Moor=black. Nothing will change this.
You yourself acknowledge that there were Eurasian looking Moors in Libya..but not Tunisia?
Where did I saw this, I made it clear.."Coastal Areas in North Africa"...learn to read dumbass.
es the Vandals did make mention of Blacks and they were rather racist. Yet a number of vandals wore asorbed by Berber tribes. Were these the Blacks the vandals spoke ill of, or Berbers like the Libyans? I find it highly unlikely that the offspring of Vandals and Blacks would retain light features down to this day. They would need a constant supply of vandals for that, down trhough the centuries. If a few thousand vandals mixed with the many tribes of Blacks, in a couple of generations they would all be Black maybe with some occasional persons with light brown skin or a few with green or grey eyes now and then. But the Black phenotype will definitely dominate.
The Vandals are one of many European non Berber, Non African migrants who came in Africa and mixed with the Natives. The High European DNA of the Berbers prooves this. The Vandals, Romans, and White Slave trade are only minor factors.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The only reason that we go in circles is because of your refusal accept what you know is likely true.
Im not going in circles son, that would imply me changing my position. I as far as I know have never changed my position, you are welcome to point out to everyone here where I have changed my position.
As I said you are just a topix debater, on that excuse for a site you can offer your opinion, google scholar, post Google links, and ignore facts and change positions, not here.
Sorry..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Its sad really.
Almost as bad as hammer, but at least hammer was amusing in his blatant satirical ignorance, this guy actually thinks he is winning or proving a point. He is used to Topix style mud fighting..
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: @melchior
I can't stop laughing at your shenanigans, anything but put up an entry in a lexicon by a linguist that shows either mauros derived from mahur or two roots m-h-r (mem-heh-resh) / m-g-r- (mem-gimel-resh).
How does it help you to erringly regurgitate me? "m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it."
The error being a fictional word (Ma)Urobh -- introducing yet a third root, m-w-r-b (mem-waw-resh-beth) -- where in fact it is ma`arab (מַּעֲרָב) at Psalm 103:12.
This is what happens when you rely on encyclopedias and internet blogs in lieu of perusing accepted academic standards, you get a beliefs not facts.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: mew mew mew manilius
Instead of her out of context mewlings about what I posted on Manilius, see what I wrote in full @ Manilius Quote, 1st century AD (Roman) I'm bumping it, hope you transfer what you posted above to that thread since you do present a few interesting elements of your own.
But the most interesting element is omitting Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Well looky there. 6 white complexions to contrast and complement the 5 black complexions, mmm mmm mmm.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Instead of her out of context mewlings about what I posted on Manilius, see what I wrote in full @ Manilius Quote, 1st century AD (Roman) I'm bumping it, hope you transfer what you posted above to that thread since you do present a few interesting elements of your own.
But the most interesting element is omitting Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Well looky there. 6 white complexions to contrast and complement the 5 black complexions, mmm mmm mmm. [/qb]
quote:Originally posted by the alTakruri (Nile Valley Forum)
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
1) Aethiopes 2) India 3) Aegyptia 4) Afrorum 5) Mauretania
The above lists doesn't appear as lists like this in the Astronomica by Manilius. They are remarks he makes within the text. And when he talks about these various skin complections above he does not sort them into two categories "black" and "white".
That is something you did.
lioness productions 2001.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: @melchior
I can't stop laughing at your shenanigans, anything but put up an entry in a lexicon by a linguist that shows either mauros derived from mahur or two roots m-h-r (mem-heh-resh) / m-g-r- (mem-gimel-resh).
How does it help you to erringly regurgitate me? "m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it."
The error being a fictional word (Ma)Urobh -- introducing yet a third root, m-w-r-b (mem-waw-resh-beth) -- where in fact it is ma`arab (מַּעֲרָב) at Psalm 103:12.
This is what happens when you rely on encyclopedias and internet blogs in lieu of perusing accepted academic standards, you get a beliefs not facts.
Dude you're a nutcase. There are entries all over the internet where scholars argue for the phoenician Mahur being the origin of the word Mauri. But No, I'm supposed to listen to you, some afrocentric fool on this forum who's going to pretend he is an expert on Semitic langauges. LMAO!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
One needn't be a Semitic scholar to use a Hebrew lexicon.
I accept your admission of inability to accomplish the minor academic task of citing a reliable lexicon of Hebrew/Canaanitic having any such entry mahur (m-h-r, m-g-r, m-w-r-b) supposedly meaning west.
You are completely ignorant of the aleph-beth and can not even do so little as properly spell this word mahur in Assyrian characters which is why you cannot look it up.
Even the spelling that Sale et al invented for Bochart is absent from the 3 lexicons listed earlier. You pin your hope on a 16th century fraud and eschew current linguistic scholarship.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyin' arse: The above lists doesn't appear as lists like this in the Astronomica by Manilius. They are remarks he makes within the text. And when he talks about these various skin complections above he does not sort them into two categories "black" and "white".
As I said it contradicts your whole damn premise that the Berbers were Nomadic people.
The idea is once these peole moved to the cities and became Romanized they ceased being cultural Berbers. Is that so hard to understand? Lol!
I mean seriously your mind exists on a plane where human habitation fits what you want to believe. IF Berbers flocked to the VERY FEW Cities during the Roman times, why in the hell would they not flock to cities during the Islamic Era esp. after many of their people like the Almohad and Almoravids controled the Mehgreb, Western Sudan and Andalucia.
Again you are confused. When we speak of Cultural Berbers, the ones we post pictures of etc. Like so..
These are people who have maganed to perserve their Identity and who tend to live outside the Urban centers. Those that do move to the urban centers tend to become Arabized overtime and mixed in with other ethnities, and thus can not be used as examples of Berbers.
You will make an exception for Berbers flocking to the Roman cities so you can put up those mosaics to bolster your argument. However when it comes to the Islamic period you know about the effects and scale of the White European slave Trade in North Africa, and lets be clear we are not just talking about the 19th century trade, Du probably the late Roman Area to Early Islam and def. in the Andalucian era white slaves were heavily trafficed in North Africa and Andalucia.
Yup and most historical records show the slaves going to the cities.. all over the muslim world, even as far Istanbul.
You know what this would mean but you are too chicken **** so you claim the Berbers in the Roman era lived in cities then during Islam were Rural and Nomadic..
Nope some settled in the cities, the majority likely didn't
What do you think happened when Rome Fell?? Did not the North Africans do as the Brits, Romans, etc did when Rome fell and returned to Rural lifestyles.. Let me guess these Roman Africans and Berber Mulattoes just vanished out into thin air.
Not necessarily, did the Parisians flee to the countryside when the German's occupied the city? The Vandals took over many of the major Urban centers like Carthage and for the most part life continued on under Vandal rule. However wwhne th Byzantines retook the cities, many Vandals did escape to the rural areas.
Where did I say anything about the Numidians??
"I will bet some of the Numidian Kings woulb be dark skinned, just as the Mulatto Septimius Severus with European White blood was Darker than his white wife. Even that would not get through your skull of the reality of black Berbers, Mauritanians and Numidians"
I was talking about Septimius Severus. You saw his damn picture, If you can't see his darker skin and African features you are being dishonest. The man was Half Italian yet was Darker than his white Wife. His hair on his Busts is thicker. If the Berbers were all Lilly white WTF went on with Septimious??
Did I say they were lilly White? No I said they looked like Qadaffi. North Africans are usually darker than most Europeans and their hair is thicker too. Nothing unuusal about that. Really you try too hard.
BTW, he was the Emperor who established the Moorish Calvary, and you saw how they were depicted..but yeah you will just cover your eyes like a child and pretend you never saw it.
I did see it. They seem to have corn rolls. However scroll up to the Berber mosiacs image, second row, second one from the right...
Moroccans..Their Black heritage is obvious no matter how much they hate SSA.
Yes many do show Black heritage. But is this from recent Black admixture or veistges of some "original Black Berber" phenotype? that is the question
Dude you are unbeliveable. Your dishonesty is speechless, I can't even find words. First off even if you are right, the Term Mauros was applied to a Tribe that had nothing to do with being West or else every single person would be called Mauros in Roman times.
That's ridiculous. The Berbers strecth from Egypt all way to Morocco, and were given diferent names according to region and tribes like Numidians etc. Where werethe ones calle Mauri found?? In Morocco and Mauretania..the extreme West! Coincidence?? Who was in North Africa first the Romans, the Greeks or the Phoenicians??
"Mauritania, by which most of this region was known to them, being derived from a native word mahur, maury the " west," whence the Mahurim of the Phoenicians, and the Mauri of the Greeks and Romans. Later the expression " Barbary States," which had reference to the indigenous Berber populations"
Altakruri proved the west refers to Magreb nor Mauros.
You have offered no evidence for this dude..LMAO. I mean its so pathetic Garrig, posting a link to Google is your proof..LMAO.
Yes becuase what Altatrooki come up with trumps what classical scholars have to say.
Your antics will not change the etymology of Moor=black. Nothing will change this.
Aahh you betray your deep emotional investment in this matter.
Where did I saw this, I made it clear.."Coastal Areas in North Africa"...learn to read dumbass.
Most of the ancient cities were on the coast.
The Vandals are one of many European non Berber, Non African migrants who came in Africa and mixed with the Natives. The High European DNA of the Berbers prooves this. The Vandals, Romans, and White Slave are only minor factors
What are the major factors then?
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Im not going in circles son, that would imply me changing my position. I as far as I know have never changed my position, you are welcome to point out to everyone here where I have changed my position.
Going in circles is not about changing your position, something your confused self keeps accusing me of. Going in cirlces is about making the same arguments over and over again and getting no where.
As I said you are just a topix debater, on that excuse for a site you can offer your opinion, google scholar, post Google links, and ignore facts and change positions, not here.
So you left there thinking you were moving up to the big leagues??
You're a big boy now, huh? Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One needn't be a Semitic scholar to use a Hebrew lexicon.
I accept your admission of inability to accomplish the minor academic task of citing a reliable lexicon of Hebrew/Canaanitic having any such entry mahur (m-h-r, m-g-r, m-w-r-b) supposedly meaning west.
You are completely ignorant of the aleph-beth and can not even do so little as properly spell this word mahur in Assyrian characters which is why you cannot look it up.
Even the spelling that Sale et al invented for Bochart is absent from the 3 lexicons listed earlier. You pin your hope on a 16th century fraud and eschew current linguistic scholarship.
What was the phoenican word for West or Western then?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The idea is once these peole moved to the cities and became Romanized they ceased being cultural Berbers. Is that so hard to understand? Lol!
We are not just talking about "Culture" here we are talking about a people here. Once again how does one moving into a city stop one from being a Berber?? LMAO, did the Latinized Brits and Irish Monks stop being Irish once they moved into the cities?? This still does not help your case, people adopt language and culture but still retain their own identity, as in the case of Islamization.
Originally posted by melchior7:Again you are confused. When we speak of Cultural Berbers, the ones we post pictures of etc. Like so..
LMAO, your level of desperation has reached another depth. We are not talking about "Cultural Berbers only we are talking about Clans, Tribes and Physical people who spoke the Berber language. These people did not cease becoming Berbers in the Islamic Era, or else you would not be posting Ibn Bhattuta to prove your pint in other debates, nor did Berbers flock to the cities in droves during the Roman era as you claim when it comes to the 18th century.
These are people who have maganed to perserve their Identity and who tend to live outside the Urban centers. Those that do move to the urban centers tend to become Arabized overtime and mixed in with other ethnities, and thus can not be used as examples of Berbers.
LMFAO, Dumbass so then if you can't use Berbers from the city as proof of Berbers why did you post the Mosaics from Tunis as proof of Berbers...
You are digging your own grave son..
Yup and most historical records show the slaves going to the cities.. all over the muslim world, even as far Istanbul.
So then Majority of the Berbers lived in cities during this time like they did during the Roman era correct??
Nope some settled in the cities, the majority likely didn't
So then what the hell does your mosaic prove is Majority did not live in cities, and the ones that did are not good examples of Berbers. Again these are your words not mine.
explain.
Originally posted by melchior7:Not necessarily, did the Parisians flee to the countryside when the German's occupied the city? The Vandals took over many of the major Urban centers like Carthage and for the most part life continued on under Vandal rule. However wwhne th Byzantines retook the cities, many Vandals did escape to the rural areas.
This does not answer my question. When Rome Fell many Urbanized people returned to Rural life. Was North Africa different?? I expect from my general understanding of History that the Urban Africans would have retreted to the country side for general survival, its Human nature. And we are not just talking about Tunis, There was others such as Volubilis, Hadrumetum, Hippo Regius, etc.
If the Vandals retreated to the Rural areas how come latinzed Romano Berbers could not??
On the Numidians subject, I said Septimmius was a Mulatto not the Numidians, pay attention, further I said the Numidians were dark skinned not black.
So my request still stands where did I say anything about the Numidians being Mulattoes...???
did I say they were lilly White? No I said they looked like Qadaffi. North Africans are usually darker than most Europeans and their hair is thicker too. Nothing unuusal about that. Really you try too hard.
LMAO, If Quaddafi was Half White(Italian) I doubt he would be Dark Brown compared to the Average white, I doubt his hair would be thick etc. BTW, have you seen the Busts of Septimius' son?? Also If Im not mistaken his wife was Syrian I.e Middle Eastern, LMAO..come on Garrig...I know the Truth hurts huh..
I did see it. They seem to have corn rolls. However scroll up to the Berber mosiacs image, second row, second one from the right...
LMAO, according to you those Mosaics are not good examples of Berbers. We have been through this already dude, you shot yourself in the foot and are trying to scramble here..LOL.
As I said if the Moorish men had Straight hair and a Roman Nose you would break your next to posit, but when it comes to the obvious african features you will dismiss it as "Cornrolls" and ignore his facial features..LMAO.
Yes many do show Black heritage. But is this from recent Black admixture or veistges of some "original Black Berber" phenotype? that is the question
I don't think most Moroccans would have mixed with Black Slaves. Given the racist stance I think it would be insignifigant, also Slaves were expensive not every Moroccan and his momma was buying slaves, plus the Black slaves had low birth rates and I believe tended to die early or something like that(I can't recall right now), In other words they did not produce much offspring. It might be because of recent Black admixture and also latent African characteristics. I favor the latter.
That's ridiculous. The Berbers strecth from Egypt all way to Morocco, and were given diferent names according to region and tribes like Numidians etc. Where werethe ones calle Mauri found?? In Morocco and Mauretania..the extreme West! Coincidence?? Who was in North Africa first the Romans, the Greeks or the Phoenicians??
Please explain how this changes the fact that only one Tribe was called Mauros, not the Numidians. If the Mauros was the name of the Western Berbers how come Numidains were not called "Mauros"?? Moor/Mauros did not come to emply North Africans in general until much later.
Also I have yet to see any concrete proof that Mauros not Mehgreb meant "West"
"Mauritania, by which most of this region was known to them, being derived from a native word mahur, maury the " west," whence the Mahurim of the Phoenicians, and the Mauri of the Greeks and Romans. Later the expression " Barbary States," which had reference to the indigenous Berber populations"
who is this from, who is the scholar??
What Linguists and Academics have verified this??
Yes becuase what Altatrooki come up with trumps what classical scholars have to say.
Who is this "Classical Scholar" Who is it.??
Aahh you betray your deep emotional investment in this matter.
??????
Most of the ancient cities were on the coast.
So then your question is answered is it not??
What are the major factors then?
I think a major factor was a steady migration of European immigrants to the Coastal Areas of North africa, mixing with the original Berbers over a long period of time.
The Saharan and Isolated Berbers would thus represent a better image of the original Berbers if this is correct.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Sources: Richard S. Tomback A comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages Missouri, Montana: Scholars Press, 1978
Francis Brown; S R Driver; Charles A Briggs A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1906
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1949 [1857]
See also my two sources for mauros posted earlier. Overlook these five at peril of your own ignorance.
See How he provided sources so you can verify if his info is correct..??
SMH..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One needn't be a Semitic scholar to use a Hebrew lexicon.
I accept your admission of inability to accomplish the minor academic task of citing a reliable lexicon of Hebrew/Canaanitic having any such entry mahur (m-h-r, m-g-r, m-w-r-b) supposedly meaning west.
You are completely ignorant of the aleph-beth and can not even do so little as properly spell this word mahur in Assyrian characters which is why you cannot look it up.
Even the spelling that Sale et al invented for Bochart is absent from the 3 lexicons listed earlier. You pin your hope on a 16th century fraud and eschew current linguistic scholarship.
What was the phoenican word for West or Western then?
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
See How he provided sources so you can verify if his info is correct..??
Yeah I'll be sure to call my local Library and see if they can put those books on hold..
We are not just talking about "Culture" here we are talking about a people here. Once again how does one moving into a city stop one from being a Berber??
.Um excuse me. But how the hell can you tell who is of Berber origns in a city like Algiers where people have been Arabized for several hundered years and mixed with who knows what?? Obviously you don't know as much about North Africa as you think you do.
This still does not help your case, people adopt language and culture but still retain their own identity, as in the case of Islamization
Yeah well most North Africans now identify as Arabs. Go figure.
We are not talking about "Cultural Berbers only we are talking about Clans, Tribes and Physical people who spoke the Berber language. These people did not cease becoming Berbers in the Islamic Era, or else you would not be posting Ibn Bhattuta to prove your pint in other debates, nor did Berbers flock to the cities in droves during the Roman era as you claim when it comes to the 18th century.
damn you are... Culture and langauge go hand in hand. The Arabs were small in number but they managed to convert many of the tribes to Islam. These tribes and clans managed to remain intact. But the Arabs dominated the urban centers and then Turks. To this day the Berber culture and langauge survives outside the cities.
"There is a tendency in Morocco to regard the Berbers as backward, partly because their culture is strongest in the less-developed rural areas. Many of the children in these regions drop out of school because they are taught in what, to them, is a foreign language - Arabic. The language barrier often remains a problem throughout adult life, especially when dealing with officialdom"
LMFAO, Dumbass so then if you can't use Berbers from the city as proof of Berbers why did you post the Mosaics from Tunis as proof of Berbers...
Easy, this was before the Vandals, Arabs etc. North Africans still dominated in the Roman provinces(compared to actual Roamns) Though some may have been mixed with Romans, we are a bit closer to what the original Berbers would have looked like, n'est ce pas? As opposed to looking for Berbers in cities today, where we have a mixture of Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Jews, Europans and Sub Saharan slaves.
So then Majority of the Berbers lived in cities during this time like they did during the Roman era correct??
No, the Majority of Berbers were never in the cities. That's why I question this notion that they absorbed so many White slaves. That's like a German immigrant coming to the states only to end up living among an Indian tribe, speaking Navajo!
When Rome Fell many Urbanized people returned to Rural life. Was North Africa different??
Yeah it was because it was taken over by The Byzantines which was actually part of the Eastern Roman Empire. They held on to North Africa and Egypt until Islamic invasions. If I remember right, the Byzantines may have moved into to Tunis area before Rome fell.
On the Numidians subject, I said Septimmius was a Mulatto not the Numidians, pay attention, further I said the Numidians were dark skinned not black.
Oh so they are not Black? So then how was Septimus a mulatto? I AM a Mulatto btw.
So my request still stands where did I say anything about the Numidians being Mulattoes...???
You didn't, I thought you held that Numidians were Black.
If Quaddafi was Half White(Italian) I doubt he would be Dark Brown compared to the Average white, I doubt his hair would be thick etc. BTW, have you seen the Busts of Septimius' son?? Also If Im not mistaken his wife was Syrian I.e Middle Eastern, LMAO..come on Garrig...I know the Truth hurts huh..
Why would it hurt me? I would believe it if it could be proven without a doubt. But you are talking about something incredible, a major population replacement! I'm not sure if you realize the magnitude of this. But yeah North Africans mixed with Europeans often do take after the North African side though sometimes not. I lived in France and have seen this. I really don't want to have to go looking for pictures of mixed North Africans etc.
according to you those Mosaics are not good examples of Berbers. We have been through this already dude, you shot yourself in the foot and are trying to scramble here..LOL.
No scrambling here.
As I said if the Moorish men had Straight hair and a Roman Nose you would break your next to posit, but when it comes to the obvious african features you will dismiss it as "Cornrolls" and ignore his facial features..LMAO.
It would be interesting if you could show a current North African culture that has that kind of hairstyle. But seriously I am intereted in that figurine of the Mauri. Where did you find it, and can you post more?
I don't think most Moroccans would have mixed with Black Slaves. Given the racist stance I think it would be insignifigant, also Slaves were expensive not every Moroccan and his momma was buying slaves,
Ok, that can make sense. But we know that there were a lot of Black slaves brought into Morocco, especially under crazy ass Moulay Ismail.
plus the Black slaves had low birth rates and I believe tended to die early or something like that(I can't recall right now), In other words they did not produce much offspring. It might be because of recent Black admixture and also latent African characteristics. I favor the latter.
I think that applies to to the males. I'm sure there were many offspring through the females. And how did they become racist?
Please explain how this changes the fact that only one Tribe was called Mauros, not the Numidians. If the Mauros was the name of the Western Berbers how come Numidains were not called "Mauros"?? Moor/Mauros did not come to emply North Africans in general until much later.
This is essentially my argument; Why would only the most western tibe be called Mauri. Were the Western most Berbers darker than the rest? I still think the name came from the Carthiginians and maybe the Greeks picked up on it. But I think they came to associate the term with dark or swarthy folks. Not necessarily Black Africans. I understand that they eventually came to use the term on other sawrthy folks in India etc. Observe,
Now can you visualize these contrasts? Would you not agree that discription is still true to form to this very day. With Sudanese (their Ethiopians) being darkest, folks from India, second darkest, Egyptians being in the middle, and other North Africans like Tunisans, Algerians etc being the lightest? Doesn't sound like much has changed to me.
who is this from, who is the scholar??
What Linguists and Academics have verified this??
Initially Bochart but many still consider it a posiiblity. If it is so easliy refutable, why hasn't it been chalenged in academia..Oh forgot those damn White rayciists!
Now what you don't know is that the cards that Alktooki holds in hands won't really win him the bet. He might argue that West in some Semitic languages includes the consonant of B V or G at the end. Howver we still have MA and R as in Ma'arav in modern Hebrew. Can one trully rule out that that Mauros or Mauri might not derive from some such combination of consanants?? I think not. And I would be curious to see him come up with the actual Phoenician word for West..if he possibly can.
think a major factor was a steady migration of European immigrants to the Coastal Areas of North africa, mixing with the original Berbers over a long period of time.
Are you talking as far back as early neolithic?
The Saharan and Isolated Berbers would thus represent a better image of the original Berbers if this is correct.
But remember historical records show that the Berbers moved southward during the Arab invasions. I already argue this point with the Explorer on another thread. This means there origins were not from these areas. And who lived in thses areas before the Berbers migrated there???...Blacks. And if they look Black Today is it really surprising?
Also I believed you mentioned somewhere else that the Tuaregs orginate with the Garamantes which I agree with. Now Herodutus says there were two different groups.
"Herodotus in his “the Histories” described two types of northern Africans: the light skinned Garamentes of northern Libya and the dark-skinned, “Trogdolyte Ethiopians” in the southern Fezzan and northeast Africa"
Now I will be honest. I have heard many say that the Tuaregs were orignally light skiined and you can see they do have some mixture. But i also know that there was a Black culture deep in the Fezzan were a Black mummy was found...earlier than any Egyptian mummy. This area is generally associated with Tuaregs. So maybe they are a fusion of two differnt peoples.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
LOL
Jari, you're right about the Malcontent. He is too used to mediocre topix forum style debating. Now that he is confronted with REAL scholarship and FACTS here at Egyptsearch, he desperately falls apart.
I stopped taking this guy seriously when I began noticing his disingenuous comments a couple of threads back.
The guy is a desperate distortion junkie like our old troll Evil-Euro.
The fool brings up Numidians, yet he ignores depictions of the said people here:
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL
Jari, you're right about the Malcontent. He is too used to mediocre topix forum style debating. Now that he is confronted with REAL scholarship and FACTS here at Egyptsearch, he desperately falls apart.
I stopped taking this guy seriously when I began noticing his disingenuous comments a couple of threads back.
The guy is a desperate distortion junkie like our old troll Evil-Euro.
The fool brings up Numidians, yet he ignores depictions of the said people here:
You're telling me that these images can't be everyday swarthy North Africans??
The only one who looks like they might be Black is one on the botom right. Man GTFOH!
Oh wait..I think. I found the images you really meant to post...
Oh yeah but they aren't from North Africa..my bad.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What was the phoenican word for West or Western then?
Which are you, mentally incompetent or an inattentive skim reader?
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Seems everybody but you understood that. But wait, you understood it too, just don't like that an African black man proved it to you.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the
1 - author, 2 - lexicon, and 3 - page number
in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.
m-h-r ≠ m-g-r
m-g-r ≠ west
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Dude that ain't telling me ish. So M r b / Ma'arab is the semitc root? Would that apply to phoenician over 2500 years ago???
And if you drop the B you get Ma ra. How far is tha?. We can still argue for this as a possible origin of Moor. You're a dunce.
And I didn't know you were an African Black man. But that is neither here nor there as far I am concerned. The doctor I see is from Togo. I have no problem with that.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the
1 - author, 2 - lexicon, and 3 - page number
in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.
m-h-r ≠ m-g-r
m-g-r ≠ west
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Dude that ain't telling me ish. So M r b / Ma'arab is the semitc root? Would that apply to phoenician over 2500 years ago???
And if you drop the B you get Ma ra . How far is tha?. We can still argue for this as a possible origin of Moor. You're a dunce.
And I didn't know you were an African Black man. But that is neither here nor there as far I am concerned. The doctor I see is from Togo. I have no problem with that.
At first I didn't understand your insertion on the Ma Ra. So I looked it up. And it's much more clear now.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is what happens when unschooled idiots try substituting blog hopping for legitimate research.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7: "According to the 1st century AD Roman poet Manilius, Moors represented a wide spectrum of color schemes with: Ethiopians, the darkest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and the Mauri". http://www.howard.edu/library/special/excellence@howard/snowden/Blacks.htm
Here is the actual passage in full context. Another frequent misconception in some discussions of the populations of the ancient world is the assumption that words or expressions describing people as dark--or black--skinned were always in classical usage the equivalents of "Ethiopians" i.e. Negroes, or, in twentieth century usage, blacks. Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples--Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors--who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these--Ethiopians--as unmistakably Negroid. To summarize this point, there is no justification to equate Egyptians, Moors or any other north Africans, with Ethiopians, even when a color-word is applied to them, unless details are given as to other physical traits such as color, hair, nose, or lips, or unless there is additional evidence to support an equivalence with Ethiopian." Courtesy of HOWARD UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES,
Lie, beg, borrow, or steal. Anything but present facts.
Ain'tcha got no SHAME?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL
Jari, you're right about the Malcontent. He is too used to mediocre topix forum style debating. Now that he is confronted with REAL scholarship and FACTS here at Egyptsearch, he desperately falls apart.
I stopped taking this guy seriously when I began noticing his disingenuous comments a couple of threads back.
The guy is a desperate distortion junkie like our old troll Evil-Euro.
The fool brings up Numidians, yet he ignores depictions of the said people here:
You're telling me that these images can't be everyday swarthy North Africans??
The only one who looks like they might be Black is one on the botom right. Man GTFOH!
Oh wait..I think. I found the images you really meant to post...
Oh yeah but they aren't from North Africa..my bad.
Those are beautiful postal stamps.
1). Kwaluudhi people, stamp, South Africa
2). Kwanyama people, stamp, South Africa
I found another one.
Odd is however that those from South Africa are genetically close in basal, with those from Algeria. And those men look like hybrid negroes.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL
Jari, you're right about the Malcontent. He is too used to mediocre topix forum style debating. Now that he is confronted with REAL scholarship and FACTS here at Egyptsearch, he desperately falls apart.
I stopped taking this guy seriously when I began noticing his disingenuous comments a couple of threads back.
The guy is a desperate distortion junkie like our old troll Evil-Euro.
The fool brings up Numidians, yet he ignores depictions of the said people here:
LOL! You cant take these clowns seriously. At first they start talking that Africa is diverse crap but then sit there and deny and try and rule out the dominant phenotype in Africa as being in Africa before any other phenotype..... And they swear that they are making sense.
But I have noticed that even Tunisia, one of the Northernmost countries in Africa still has phenotypes matching those stamps. But I guess some fools think this is some sort of mistake by the government of Tunisia in publishing those stamps. Right.
Just for those not in the know, there are those of us who own a few of the books we cite. You are at a disadvantage. Yes, you should grace your library and undo ignorance. It's called learning. Once you learn then you can share research here with us all who are interested in increasing the knowledge.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7:
quote:Originally posted by Jari: See How he provided sources so you can verify if his info is correct..??
Yeah I'll be sure to call my local Library and see if they can put those books on hold..
Whose fault is it if your education ended right after form school?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL
Jari, you're right about the Malcontent. He is too used to mediocre topix forum style debating. Now that he is confronted with REAL scholarship and FACTS here at Egyptsearch, he desperately falls apart.
I stopped taking this guy seriously when I began noticing his disingenuous comments a couple of threads back.
The guy is a desperate distortion junkie like our old troll Evil-Euro.
The fool brings up Numidians, yet he ignores depictions of the said people here:
LOL! You cant take these clowns seriously. At first they start talking that Africa is diverse crap but then sit there and deny and try and rule out the dominant phenotype in Africa as being in Africa before any other phenotype..... And they swear that they are making sense.
But I have noticed that even Tunisia, one of the Northernmost countries in Africa still has phenotypes matching those stamps. But I guess some fools think this is some sort of mistake by the government of Tunisia in publishing those stamps. Right.
web page Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This is what happens when unschooled idiots try substituting blog hopping for legitimate research.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7: "According to the 1st century AD Roman poet Manilius, Moors represented a wide spectrum of color schemes with: Ethiopians, the darkest; Indians, less sunburned; Egyptians, mildly dark; and the Mauri". http://www.howard.edu/library/special/excellence@howard/snowden/Blacks.htm
Here is the actual passage in full context. Another frequent misconception in some discussions of the populations of the ancient world is the assumption that words or expressions describing people as dark--or black--skinned were always in classical usage the equivalents of "Ethiopians" i.e. Negroes, or, in twentieth century usage, blacks. Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples--Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors--who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these--Ethiopians--as unmistakably Negroid. To summarize this point, there is no justification to equate Egyptians, Moors or any other north Africans, with Ethiopians, even when a color-word is applied to them, unless details are given as to other physical traits such as color, hair, nose, or lips, or unless there is additional evidence to support an equivalence with Ethiopian." Courtesy of HOWARD UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES,
Lie, beg, borrow, or steal. Anything but present facts.
Ain'tcha got no SHAME?
Oh no you didn't..Lol.
Dude ,do you really believe that you have somehow put a different spin on what I quoted?
The following passages are actually more damning to your main premise. Read it again. Jari help him out.
Geez.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Yeah I'll be sure to call my local Library and see if they can put those books on hold..
Funny how your only response in sarcasm on going to a Library, which in the end proves you are just a Google scholar with no formal education on the topic at hand.
Guess the joke is on you.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: .Um excuse me. But how the hell can you tell who is of Berber origns in a city like Algiers where people have been Arabized for several hundered years and mixed with who knows what?? Obviously you don't know as much about North Africa as you think you do.
Why are you asking me???... You were the one who is posting Mosaics from cities and claiming them as proof of how the Berbers looked. Im not the one who used Berbers living in the cites to prove my point, you did.... Did you forget that.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Yeah well most North Africans now identify as Arabs. Go figure.
Arab and the Arab identity is by and large a Language group. People who speak Arabic and worship an Arab religion see themselves as Arabs. Which is why you have people like the Janjaweed and other SSA claiming to Arabs. Which is why you had President Sedat claiming to Arab, and why Arabs were upset that an English speaking AA with no Arab blood played Sedat.(anyone in the West that claims Sedat did not look "Black" is delusional, but again in Arab society one drop of Arab blood makes one Bidan and thus Arab. the Pole opposite of the west).
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Culture and langauge go hand in hand. The Arabs were small in number but they managed to convert many of the tribes to Islam. These tribes and clans managed to remain intact. But the Arabs dominated the urban centers and then Turks. To this day the Berber culture and langauge survives outside the cities.
Once again you are not answering my question. You claim the Urbanized Berbers who speak Latin or Arabic etc are not really Berbers so then why quote Ibn Bhutatta, why post your mosaics?? You have not answered this question, just off topic babble..
You get no argument from me about Rural Berbers, esp the Saharan Berbers whom Darker than the Coastal Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Easy, this was before the Vandals, Arabs etc. North Africans still dominated in the Roman provinces(compared to actual Roamns) Though some may have been mixed with Romans, we are a bit closer to what the original Berbers would have looked like, n'est ce pas? As opposed to looking for Berbers in cities today, where we have a mixture of Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Jews, Europans and Sub Saharan slaves.
The Romans migrated to the African Cities during this time.
How convenient for you, but sorry for you the Romans did migrate heavily to Africa. After all it was quite close...some info from Wiki...
People from all over the Empire migrated into the Roman Africa Province, most importantly merchants, traders, and mainly veterans in early retirement who settled in Africa on farming plots promised for their military service. Historians like Theodore Mommsen estimated that under Hadrian nearly 1/3 of the eastern Numidia population (roughly modern Tunisia) was descended from Roman veterans.
How does this square with your claim that Romanized Berbers living in cities don't represent real Berbers..
Explain..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: No, the Majority of Berbers were never in the cities. That's why I question this notion that they absorbed so many White slaves. That's like a German immigrant coming to the states only to end up living among an Indian tribe, speaking Navajo!
So then what is the point of you posting the Moasics Garrig?? Explain yourself...
BTW, you might want to do some research on the level of European admixture in various Native Americans..The Cherokee come to mind but Many, Many Native Americans are heavily mixed today. Many native Americans have European admixture, Some like the Siminole have African admixture..etc.
I would say the pure ones are quite a Minority. And the Native Americans were put on Reservations, I don't recall this happeneing with the Berbers..
The Native Americans don't help your case here. The thing is this what happens when populations come into contact with each other they mix. Your desperate attempts at trying to make the Berbers a special case just proves your desperation, beacuase you know what it mean..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Yeah it was because it was taken over by The Byzantines which was actually part of the Eastern Roman Empire. They held on to North Africa and Egypt until Islamic invasions. If I remember right, the Byzantines may have moved into to Tunis area before Rome fell.
You may be right here, there could have been a period of instability some of the North African cities such as Vollibullis etc. were obviously abandoned. I might have to do more research on this. With Rome gone, even with Byzantium I doubt Africa had the same wealth and clout it did, until the Islamic era.
Im sure Migrations occured. Esp with invading Muslims etc.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Oh so they are not Black? So then how was Septimus a mulatto? I AM a Mulatto btw.
I don't think Septimius came from the Tribe that Juba did, I think he was a Moor not a Numidian.
This is what I picture the Numidians looking like..
Also, I do know you are a Mulatto, I remember this from topix.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You didn't, I thought you held that Numidians were Black.
It can go either way, the Bust of Juba II looks like an "Sahran" type African but the Busts of his father don't. I can't say either way I would have to judge off of Facial features alone.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Why would it hurt me? I would believe it if it could be proven without a doubt. But you are talking about something incredible, a major population replacement! I'm not sure if you realize the magnitude of this. But yeah North Africans mixed with Europeans often do take after the North African side though sometimes not. I lived in France and have seen this. I really don't want to have to go looking for pictures of mixed North Africans etc.
How is this "Incredible" I doubt the Berbers were very numerous at this time. You probably had trickles of Eurpean Immigrants to North African(and vice versa) cities. When the Berbers became Urbanized they mixed with non African Europeans who came in in a large scale. I don't think it was so drastic but a gradual change.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: It would be interesting if you could show a current North African culture that has that kind of hairstyle. But seriously I am intereted in that figurine of the Mauri. Where did you find it, and can you post more?
I agree with this, It would be interesting. The Hair style on the man and the Moorish Calvary as well as the Moorish vases etc. reminds me of an Egyptian wig style. Oddly enough the only people who still sport this type of style are the Beja people of Egypt and Sudan. Not only did Berber as a language begin in the Eastern Desert but the Beja are Gentically linked to the Taureg. Go figure..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Ok, that can make sense. But we know that there were a lot of Black slaves brought into Morocco, especially under crazy ass Moulay Ismail.
I agree, Im not saying the African slaves had no impact, thats crazy talk but it would not be drastic. I just use the Barbary slavery to counter people who love to Bring up Translatlantic slavery.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I think that applies to to the males. I'm sure there were many offspring through the females. And how did they become racist?
I honestly don't know. At one time the Berbers both black and tawny and SSAs were united under tribes such as the Almoravids and Almohads. The Almohad Sultan "Al Mansur" had a SSA mother and was called the Black Sultan. I don't understand where this "Black Moors being inferior, White Moors being superior etc.
Here is my take but its my opinion take it with a grain of salt.
I believe the racism came from the influence of Persian and Arab writers who wrote that the Zanj were inferior due to the Zanj revolt. This is the time when the "Curse of Ham" is being introduced into Islam. This idea that the black sons of Ham is picked by scholars from Basra and the Bhagdad etc. to include all blacks not just the Zanj.
Second after the fall of Old Ghana some of the Tribes in Mauritania were not Militarily superior and were conquered by the Mixed Arabs and Berbers and Muwalladun fleeing Andalucia. In any other circumstance the Mauritanians would be just subjugated for being Millitarily inferior, but ass the influence of the Basra and Bhagdad scholars racist drivel and wha-la...Blacks(Mauritanians or Old Ghana) are inferior and should be slaves...blah blah.
What is interesting is that in Old Ghana, even Mali and Songhai you had SSA ruling over and probaly subjugating Berbers, although its obvious they were not treated as inferiors or persecuted.
BTW, I read a good article on the Invasion of Songhai by the Morrocan Sultan. Evidently he had Good relations with Songhai and Bornu. He had wanted to to add Songhai and Borneu to Morocco to counter the Ottomans. He sent letters and obviously did not see the SSA empires as inferior. It was a great read for anyone wishing to understand the North African/SSA relationship, specifically Mali and Morocco and how ONE dumb war against each other ended their Prestige and Clout in the Islamic world..
Now as far as the Modern Racism its obviously inspired by European and Western mentality.
Now can you visualize these contrasts? Would you not agree that discription is still true to form to this very day. With Sudanese (their Ethiopians) being darkest, folks from India, second darkest, Egyptians being in the middle, and other North Africans like Tunisans, Algerians etc being the lightest? Doesn't sound like much has changed to me.
I don't know I think by the Lightest I envision a Sahran type person, Lighter than most Africans but dark enough to included with blacks.
[/QB][/QUOTE]Are you talking as far back as early neolithic?[/QB][/QUOTE]
Possibly but again it was small scale almost insignifigant. It would take a long time to see any drastic change at first. You begin to see their impact during Egypt's new Kingdom but were probably still a Minority until later times, probably during the Middle Ages late Roman era they became the Majority.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: But remember historical records show that the Berbers moved southward during the Arab invasions. I already argue this point with the Explorer on another thread. This means there origins were not from these areas. And who lived in thses areas before the Berbers migrated there???...Blacks. And if they look Black Today is it really surprising?
These people were inhabiting the Sahrah before the Arabs came.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Also I believed you mentioned somewhere else that the Tuaregs orginate with the Garamantes which I agree with. Now Herodutus says there were two different groups.
"Herodotus in his “the Histories” described two types of northern Africans: the light skinned Garamentes of northern Libya and the dark-skinned, “Trogdolyte Ethiopians” in the southern Fezzan and northeast Africa"
Now I will be honest. I have heard many say that the Tuaregs were orignally light skiined and you can see they do have some mixture. But i also know that there was a Black culture deep in the Fezzan were a Black mummy was found...earlier than any Egyptian mummy. This area is generally associated with Tuaregs. So maybe they are a fusion of two differnt peoples.
The Taureg are still lightskinned as compared to other Africans, and the Garamantes were described as Athipies meaning blacks.
"Moorish Cavalry", Trajan's Column. At a closer view we see the poor condition it's in. It's crumbling on the faces, including their noses and all over generally with numerous holes as well.
^^^ show me the tribe in Africa where men have their hair in these very thick dreads or curls (no way to tell which) plus show me the same people with big full beards.
^^^ look a the beard, this is not tightly coiled afro type hair. .
^^^ Look at this hair. It's thick choppy straight hair. This hair matches the bearded Juba I above. Therefore this is the natural state of Juba I's hair.
^^^^ look at the beard, you're telling me this is indigenous African?
.
^^^ look at this. It's Syphax. He was one of the Numidian kings about 150 years before Juba I. He looks very Roman. Look at several of these Numidians. They simply don't look African. Look at Tureg, Fulani, etc. They look nothing like this
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
In the third and fourth centuries A.D., this southward migration was intensified by the arrival of Berber groups from the north who were searching for pasturage or fleeing political anarchy and war. The wide-ranging activities of these turbulent Berber warriors were made possible by the introduction of the camel to the Sahara in this period. This first wave of Berber invaders subjugated and made vassals of those Bafour who did not flee south. Other Berber groups followed in the seventh and eighth centuries, themselves fleeing in large numbers before the Arab conquerors of the Maghrib."
What evidence does the author(s) cite for the fleeing of the "Bafours"?
And let me get this straight: Some "Berbers" decided to stick it out in the coastal north and fight the intruding Arabs, but the ancestors of "Moors" and the Kel Tamasheq, who are known to be effective warriors, decided to flee?
The Kel Tamasheq were one of the people the Europeans feared in West Africa, by some European accounts themselves of the time, when the Europeans had their eyes set on colonizing African lands. Did you know that?
Furthermore, your source suggests that the "Berbers" were willing to face the Bafours in armed conflict, having access to camels, but not have the guts to face invading Arabs?
By making this sort of argument, do you realize that you are saying "Berbers" of the coastal north, who would have otherwise been sedentary before the Arab invasions, moved southward and became the nomads of the Sahel and Sahara for the remainder of their existence?
quote: You are asking to me research this when you likely already have the answers.
I know I have answers, but I don't know that you do, considering your theories of how the "Moors" and Kel Tamasheq groups came be where they are.
quote:You miss the point. The only way you can have people so light is if they have married among themselves. Intermediate? Are you now implying that North Tamazight groups are inherently lighter? Actaully the indiginous Of Mauretania are mostly Black.
Oh, I understood your point alright. I just don't buy it. By the extreme north Tamazight speakers, I'm referring to the likes of the Kabyle, who have a reputation in "western" academia of having extensive gene flow with Iberian females. There are a lot of "light-skinned" folks among them. So, it shouldn't be surprising, when some "Moors" of Mauritania are a bit on the light side in pigmentation, considering that they exchange genes with Tamazight speakers further north, who have a lot of "light-skinned" individuals in their midst.
quote:The light skinned Folks who maintain their distinct pehenotype claim that they are descendants of the Moors and Arabs.
Well then there you go. They are admitting that they have "mixed" heritage, which could very well speak to skin tones. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Still waiting for citations putting the origin of Berber tongues in the mouths an cultures of Rome, Spain, Greece or Turkey, ie any part of Eurasia. And on top of that, citations for the Eurasian populations that introduced those tongues to Africa. Barring that, no degree of mixture in North Africa is proof of the Eurasian origin of Berber language and culture. Berber language and culture is simply an extension of Afroasiatic adapted to a pastoral nomadic lifestyle in the desert and scrubland of Northern Africa. That pastoral nomadic lifestyle developed purely within Africa as a result of thousands of years of fluctuations in the wet/dry phases of the Sahara. Those are fully attested and documented facts along with the movements of Africa blacks from the South, West, East and North of the Sahara. Hence, no need for "Eurasians" to introduce African culture to Africans.
And it is funny that the OP has still not found any actual pictures from the time of the berbers in the Almoravid and Almohad armies from the 12th century AD.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Yeah well most North Africans now identify as Arabs. Go figure.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Arab and the Arab identity is by and large a Language group. People who speak Arabic and worship an Arab religion see themselves as Arabs. Which is why you have people like the Janjaweed and other SSA claiming to Arabs. Which is why you had President Sedat claiming to Arab, and why Arabs were upset that an English speaking AA with no Arab blood played Sedat.(anyone in the West that claims Sedat did not look "Black" is delusional, but again in Arab society one drop of Arab blood makes one Bidan and thus Arab. the Pole opposite of the west).
*Sadat was of Nubian descent. Meaning from the South.
*North Africans are predomantly Arabized.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Funny how your only response in sarcasm on going to a Library, which in the end proves you are just a Google scholar with no formal education on the topic at hand.
Guess the joke is on you.
Don’t know why you say that. I get my information from where ever I can. I got tons of books at home on a variety of subjects but most of the stuff is outdated. As for my education I am a History major but currently pursuing a graduate degree in something totally unrelated. No, I am not a geneticist or Anthropologist, my profession is far from any of that. But I have always been interested in anthropolgy and archaeology since I was a kid. But as you know information is always coming in, theories are constantly being revised etc. If you want to stay a breast, you can’t really on yesterday’s books. Of course I will go online to find new information using Google or whatever. I can get ten times the information I could ever get from books. Thank God for the internet.
Arab and the Arab identity is by and large a Language group. People who speak Arabic and worship an Arab religion see themselves as Arabs. Which is why you have people like the Janjaweed and other SSA claiming to Arabs. Which is why you had President Sedat claiming to Arab, and why Arabs were upset that an English speaking AA with no Arab blood played Sedat.(anyone in the West that claims Sedat did not look "Black" is delusional, but again in Arab society one drop of Arab blood makes one Bidan and thus Arab. the Pole opposite of the west).
Ok this is a digression. But for the record I believe Sadat did have Sudanese ancestry. His mother was Nubian Sudanese. So he was Black.
Once again you are not answering my question. You claim the Urbanized Berbers who speak Latin or Arabic etc are not really Berbers so then why quote Ibn Bhutatta, why post your mosaics?? You have not answered this question, just off topic babble..
Ibn Batutta was surveying different regions of Africa. He was describing the different tribes he encountered. He was not talking about urbanized Berbers. The Mosaics give us a snapshot of North Africans 2000 years ago before the Arabs and Vandals. We should see images of very dark skinned natives if they were originally Black
The Romans migrated to the African Cities during this time.
How convenient for you, but sorry for you the Romans did migrate heavily to Africa. After all it was quite close...some info from Wiki...
one third.. meaning the majority were likely Native North Africans who would have been employed in various fields throught the region. Is there any reason to believe that their images would not show up on the mosaics?
So then what is the point of you posting the Moasics Garrig?? Explain yourself...
There were a good many in the cities I’m sure but the majority lived in the foothills of the Aures Mountains where Kabyles and Shawiya came from.
BTW, you might want to do some research on the level of European admixture in various Native Americans..The Cherokee come to mind but Many, Many Native Americans are heavily mixed today. Many native Americans have European admixture, Some like the Siminole have African admixture..etc.
That isn’t the point. The reference is to European Slaves. Algeria, Morocco etc in during the time of the Barbary pirates were regions were Arabs and Turks dominated. Their influence was in the cities. If slaves were caught you would expect them to forced to convert to Islam and Arabic culture as many of the many of the historical anecdotes tell us, which you yourself have read. It certainly seems strange that many Europeans slaves would end up in some rural villages speaking Berber. How could they afford them? How could they compete with the Pashas??? Someone said the dress and customs of these Berbers resemble those of people in the Balkans or Albania. How can this be, if most of the slaves came from Spain and France? The Berbers have more people with fair traits than those in the cities whom we know have some European slave ancestry. How do we explain that? Also if so much of the European DNA is Iberian, why do some groups of Berbers show a greater tendency toward Blond traits than folks in Spain??
I would say the pure ones are quite a Minority. And the Native Americans were put on Reservations, I don't recall this happeneing with the Berbers..
The Berbers have their own regions and communities, though not nationally protected like reservations.
I don't think Septimius came from the Tribe that Juba did, I think he was a Moor not a Numidian. This is what I picture the Numidians looking like..
Ok they look mixed with Black, definitely. They look like Southern Egyptians.
How is this "Incredible" I doubt the Berbers were very numerous at this time. You probably had trickles of European Immigrants to North African(and vice versa) cities. When the Berbers became Urbanized they mixed with non African Europeans who came in in a large scale. I don't think it was so drastic but a gradual change.
Well it doesn’t look like the Romans affected their phenotype much. Remember many on here believe that the Moors were Black when they invaded Spain. Many disagree with the quotes of Ibn Batutta from the 14th century about light Berbers. So essentially you are looking at most of North Africa going from Black to light skinned somewhere between 1400 and 1800, I guess. Dana says there were no Eurasian looking Berbers before the 16th century. Such a racial change over so vast a region is quite drastic to say the least.
And if so many of the Berbers have mostly kept to themselves, and their Y dna is E and their Iberian mtDNA dates back to early Neolithic, then the European slave theory doesn’t work very well.
I agree with this, It would be interesting. The Hair style on the man and the Moorish Calvary as well as the Moorish vases etc. reminds me of an Egyptian wig style. Oddly enough the only people who still sport this type of style are the Beja people of Egypt and Sudan. Not only did Berber as a language begin in the Eastern Desert but the Beja are Gentically linked to the Taureg. Go figure.
I believe there was a migration toward the East as well when the Sahara dried up which came to bear on Egypt and the Sudan. Look at this.
“An Italian team of archaeologists first explored the Libyan Sahara almost fifty years ago. In 1958 they struck gold. Professor Fabrizio Mori discovered the black mummy at the Uan Muhuggiag rockshelter. The mummy of a young boy, Uan Muhuggiag was destined for controversy. He was older than any comparable Egyptian mummy and his mere existence challenged the very idea that Egyptians were the first in the region to mummify their dead. Although the Italian team from the university of Rome “La Sapienza”, has since discovered other mummified tissue, they have not yet discovered another complete mummy in the region. But Uan Muhuggiag was no one off. The sophistication of his mummification suggested he was the result of a long tradition of mummification. Investigations in the area continue under the direction of Dr Savino di Lernia and Professor Mario Liverani.”
Now as far as the Modern Racism its obviously inspired by European and Western mentality.
Yeah that is true.
I don't know I think by the Lightest I envision a Sahran type person, Lighter than most Africans but dark enough to included with blacks.
These people were inhabiting the Sahrah before the Arabs came. The Taureg are still lightskinned as compared to other Africans, and the Garamantes were described as Athipies meaning blacks.
One thing. I think there is a lot differing claims from the Greek and Romans regarding North Africans when we look at all the quotes. Herodotus claims Garamantes were light distinguishing them from Ethiopians. Others claim Garamantes were the same as Ethiopians.
How would you classify someone like this according to Classical standards..
The girl looks like a mulatta, The old Man looks more Arabic, the boy looks Black. But here is a question, could folks who migrated from East Africa northwards have developed some kind of intermediate phenotype without being mixed?? Could the mountainous regions in North Africa during the last glacial maximum have been cold enough for North Africans to adopt light traits similar to Europeans?
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Still waiting for citations putting the origin of Berber tongues in the mouths an cultures of Rome, Spain, Greece or Turkey, ie any part of Eurasia. And on top of that, citations for the Eurasian populations that introduced those tongues to Africa. Barring that, no degree of mixture in North Africa is proof of the Eurasian origin of Berber language and culture Well then you will keep on waiting. I never heard of Berber language orginating from Europe. Though some may argue the reverse is true with Berber influencing some languages in Europe.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
What evidence does the author(s) cite for the fleeing of the "Bafours"?
And let me get this straight: Some "Berbers" decided to stick it out in the coastal north and fight the intruding Arabs, but the ancestors of "Moors" and the Kel Tamasheq, who are known to be effective warriors, decided to flee?
The Kel Tamasheq were one of the people the Europeans feared in West Africa, by some European accounts themselves of the time, when the Europeans had their eyes set on colonizing African lands. Did you know that?
Furthermore, your source suggests that the "Berbers" were willing to face the Bafours in armed conflict, having access to camels, but not have the guts to face invading Arabs?
By making this sort of argument, do you realize that you are saying "Berbers" of the coastal north, who would have otherwise been sedentary before the Arab invasions, moved southward and became the nomads of the Sahel and Sahara for the remainder of their existence?
Where would the coastal Berbers flee to? They have Atlas mountains to the south. Those who were already on the edges of the Sahara migrated South. But if you do not agree with this version of events then when do you think the Berbers migrated South?
Oh, I understood your point alright. I just don't buy it. By the extreme north Tamazight speakers, I'm referring to the likes of the Kabyle, who have a reputation in "western" academia of having extensive gene flow with Iberian females. There are a lot of "light-skinned" folks among them. So, it shouldn't be surprising, when some "Moors" of Mauritania are a bit on the light side in pigmentation, considering that they exchange genes with Tamazight speakers further north, who have a lot of "light-skinned" individuals in their midst.
So would many of the Moors who invaded Spain have been folks on the light side of pigmentation as well?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Still waiting for citations putting the origin of Berber tongues in the mouths an cultures of Rome, Spain, Greece or Turkey, ie any part of Eurasia. And on top of that, citations for the Eurasian populations that introduced those tongues to Africa. Barring that, no degree of mixture in North Africa is proof of the Eurasian origin of Berber language and culture. Berber language and culture is simply an extension of Afroasiatic adapted to a pastoral nomadic lifestyle in the desert and scrubland of Northern Africa. That pastoral nomadic lifestyle developed purely within Africa as a result of thousands of years of fluctuations in the wet/dry phases of the Sahara. Those are fully attested and documented facts along with the movements of Africa blacks from the South, West, East and North of the Sahara. Hence, no need for "Eurasians" to introduce African culture to Africans.
And it is funny that the OP has still not found any actual pictures from the time of the berbers in the Almoravid and Almohad armies from the 12th century AD.
Alfonso X of the next is the closet thing we have. If Berber originated in African does not mean that it was not developed by migrants. I said "if". The Proto Berber spilt may have been as recent as 3,000 years. Some of the migrants may have setteled into previously unihabited areas in the Atlas and therefore be the first people in some areas, therefore indigenous in that sense. The earliest written records in rhe region are Punic.
Almohad Caliphate
The dynasty originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribe of the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Ibn Tumart was the son of a lamplighter in a mosque and had been noted for his piety from his youth. In his early life, he performed the hajj to Mecca, whence he was expelled on account of his severe strictures on the laxity of others, and thence wandered to Baghdad, where he attached himself to the school of the orthodox doctor al-Ash'ari. Al-Andalus followed the fate of Africa. Between 1146 and 1173, the Almohads gradually brought the various principalities under Almoravid rule under their control. The Almohads transferred the capital to from Cordoba to Seville, a step followed by the founding of the great mosque, the tower of which, The Giralda, they erected in 1184 to mark the accession of Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur.
List of Almohad caliphs (1121–1269)
Ibn Tumart 1121–1130 Abd al-Mu'min 1130–1163 Abu Ya'qub Yusuf I 1163–1184 Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur 1184–1199 Muhammad an-Nasir 1199–1213 Abu Ya'qub Yusuf II 1213–1224 Abd al-Wahid I 1224 Abdallah al-Adil 1224–1227 Yahya 1227–1235 Idris I 1227–1232 Abdul-Wahid II 1232–1242 Ali 1242–1248 Umar 1248–1266 Idris II 1266–1269
By 698 the Arabs had conquered most of North Africa from the Byzantines. The area was divided into three provinces: Egypt with its governor at al-Fustat, Ifrikquiya with its governor at Kairouan, and the Maghreb (modern Morocco and Mauritania) with its governor at Fes. Musa bin Nusair, a successful Yemeni general in the campaign, was made governor of Ifrikquiya and given the responsibility of putting down a renewed Berber rebellion and converting the population to Islam. Musa and his two sons prevailed over the rebels and enslaved 300,000 captives. The caliph's portion was 60,000 of the captives. These the caliph sold into slavery, the proceeds from their sale going into the public treasury. Another 30,000 captives were pressed into military service.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: What evidence does the author(s) cite for the fleeing of the "Bafours"?
And let me get this straight: Some "Berbers" decided to stick it out in the coastal north and fight the intruding Arabs, but the ancestors of "Moors" and the Kel Tamasheq, who are known to be effective warriors, decided to flee?
The Kel Tamasheq were one of the people the Europeans feared in West Africa, by some European accounts themselves of the time, when the Europeans had their eyes set on colonizing African lands. Did you know that?
Furthermore, your source suggests that the "Berbers" were willing to face the Bafours in armed conflict, having access to camels, but not have the guts to face invading Arabs?
By making this sort of argument, do you realize that you are saying "Berbers" of the coastal north, who would have otherwise been sedentary before the Arab invasions, moved southward and became the nomads of the Sahel and Sahara for the remainder of their existence?
Where would the coastal Berbers flee to? They have Atlas mountains to the south. Those who were already on the edges of the Sahara migrated South. But if you do not agree with this version of events then when do you think the Berbers migrated South?
While I'd like to consider your questions, which are supplied instead of answers, I'm thinking that it would be a good idea to establish these southward flee of "Berbers" took place in the first place, and that it is the only reason why the "Moors" of Mauritania and the Kel Tamasheq (Tuaregs) are where they now live, shouldn't it? Answering my questions is a good way to getting that taken care of.
quote:So would many of the Moors who invaded Spain have been folks on the light side of pigmentation as well?
Were they?
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Were they?
I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light.
"It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Melchior if you knew that before hand then why did you spend much bandwidth trying to make the dark-skinned Moors out to be slaves.
quote:I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light. "It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Were they?
I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light.
"It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek
One: Earlier, you painted the Bafour/Bafor as the original inhabitants of Mauritania and ancestors of "black Africans" pushed southward by retreating "Berbers", whom you tried to portray as originally "white".
Now, you cite a source, to claim that they were "very light", while the source uses the term "white".
Which is it?
Two: On the other hand, your source essentially refers to the "black" group as "Berbers". Does that not shoot down your originally "white" Berber thingy?
Three: Do you consider the "Bafor" as "Moors"?
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
One: Earlier, you painted the Bafour/Bafor as the original inhabitants of Mauritania and ancestors of "black Africans" pushed southward by retreating "Berbers", whom you tried to portray as originally "white".
And can you imagine my surprise when I discoverd that book that says that the Bafur where tadionally held to be light??
Now, you cite a source, to claim that they were "very light", while the source uses the term "white".
Which is it?
Well I'm trying not to be too abrasive. The term White tends get a knee jerk reaction around here. Lol!
Two: On the other hand, your source essentially refers to the "black" group as "Berbers". Does that not shoot down your originally "white" Berber thingy?
That is but one group. And we are talking about Mauritania. Further down in the passage the author mentions that he believes the Bafor were descended of Berbers too, the Zenata.
Three: Do you consider the "Bafor" as "Moors"?
Some of theem likely contributed to the Moorish invasion of Spain at some point.
Now where is your take on all of this??
Everybody was kung fu fighting... Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Melchior if you knew that before hand then why did you spend much bandwidth trying to make the dark-skinned Moors out to be slaves.
I don't say they were all slaves. My point is that majority of Moors who invaded Spain weren't Blacks. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: We know what's going on we told you from three pages ago, no one here was making a case for Black only Moors,it's your insistence in trying to remove
wrong, Doug and dana DO argue the Moors and Berbers were exclusively "black"
whatever black means exactly (anything you want it to basically)
notice my question about the half million descendants of Carthage has her lips sealed
Carthaginian descendants - do you mean the Vandal ones? Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Were they?
I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light.
"It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek
How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.
White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.
Stop spreading lies about Africans.
The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.
These same people who are mentioned as dragging the European slaves through the desert by their necks and who have absorbed those Europeans. Now you are trying to pretend like there is some question of whom the founders of the Almoravid and later dynasties were.
There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Melchior if you knew that before hand then why did you spend much bandwidth trying to make the dark-skinned Moors out to be slaves.
I don't say they were all slaves. My point is that majority of Moors who invaded Spain weren't Blacks.
Of course the Zenata, Masmuda, Kitama, Sanhaja were the majority of the Moors who invaded Spain. The "Moorish Arabs" or Arabians were the other blacks who invaded Spain.
If you want to pretend that these people were white when the early Near Easterners called them the blacks go right ahead.
"Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ 11th century Ibn Butlan
"Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib" Ibn Khaldun on the common explanation of why all Berbers were black.
“Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” (Lev, p. 342). Nasir Khusrau, orn in Central Asia (Balkh, Khorasan), lived in the 11th century.
Moors, Berbers, Nubians, Egyptians, Indi, Habesh, Arabians were all the same color ranging from copper brown to deep black and were once the same populations. At one time or another all were considered of "Ethiopian" origin.
No where to run and no where to hide.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Melchior if you knew that before hand then why did you spend much bandwidth trying to make the dark-skinned Moors out to be slaves.
quote:I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light. "It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek
Because he is a liar from the cradle to the grave.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.
White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.
Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.
Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.
When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.
Stop spreading lies about Africans.
The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.
If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.
There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.
The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.
"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."
See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Of course the Zenata, Masmuda, Kitama, Sanhaja were the majority of the Moors who invaded Spain. The "Moorish Arabs" or Arabians were the other blacks who invaded Spain.
What?? So the Arabs were all Blacks too??? Do people on here really believe this woman?
Moors, Berbers, Nubians, Egyptians, Indi, Habesh, Arabians were all the same color ranging from copper brown to deep black and were once the same populations. At one time or another all were considered of "Ethiopian" origin.
Oh ok. So how did the Arabians get their current Eurasian/Semitic traits?? Was that the result of fcuking one million White slaves too?
And Khaldun likened North Africans compexion to people in Spain.
"The human inhabitants of these zones are more temperate in their bodies, color, character qualities... Such are the inhabitants of the Maghrib, of Syria, the two 'Iraqs, Western India, and China, as well as of Spain; also the European Christians nearby, the Galicians, and all those who live together with these peoples or near them in the three temperate zones."
No where to run and no where to hide.
Don't need to, cuz all your Black Moorish Arabians, Zenata, Sanhaja whatever storming Spain is just a figment of your imagination. Me, I live in the real world. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
And Khaldun likened North Africans compexion to people in Spain.
But if the had the same complexion, why did Spanish call them differently, like Moor?
I assume you do have names and places where Khaldun went. Did he speak of tribes etc...?
And since you live in the real world, can you provide the original Arabic texts, by Khaldun.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Of course the Zenata, Masmuda, Kitama, Sanhaja were the majority of the Moors who invaded Spain. The "Moorish Arabs" or Arabians were the other blacks who invaded Spain.
What?? So the Arabs were all Blacks too??? Do people on here really believe this woman?
Moors, Berbers, Nubians, Egyptians, Indi, Habesh, Arabians were all the same color ranging from copper brown to deep black and were once the same populations. At one time or another all were considered of "Ethiopian" origin.
Oh ok. So how did the Arabians get their current Eurasian/Semitic traits?? Was that the result of fcuking one million White slaves too?
And Khaldun likened North Africans compexion to people in Spain.
"The human inhabitants of these zones are more temperate in their bodies, color, character qualities... Such are the inhabitants of the Maghrib, of Syria, the two 'Iraqs, Western India, and China, as well as of Spain; also the European Christians nearby, the Galicians, and all those who live together with these peoples or near them in the three temperate zones."
No where to run and no where to hide.
Don't need to, cuz all your Black Moorish Arabians, Zenata, Sanhaja whatever storming Spain is just a figment of your imagination. Me, I live in the real world.
Funny you should mention Ibn Khaldun who apparently wasn't specifically talking about Berbers in the above paragraph.
Here is what he writes about the explanation given by most people in his day of why Berbers in WERE BLACK, “Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib” (Smith, 2003, Smith, R. (2003). “What happened to the ancient Libyans? Chasing sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun,” Journal of World History 14:4, page 482.
Nice try though. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.
White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.
Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.
Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.
When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.
Stop spreading lies about Africans.
The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.
If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.
There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.
The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.
"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."
See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,
THe Lamtuna were the modern Kel Aulamidden Tuareg of NIGER. Those were the Almoravids whether or not they brought other blacks with them or not. And whether you like it or not.
You are talking about Yusef the Tuareg who is either of noble or vassal stock. Tuareg are what they are and if you want to think of them as not East African in origin that is your prerogative. Yes, Yusef - a dark brown skinned kinky haired African went with 15,000 of HIS PEOPLE and other black Africans into Andalusia.
Now you can tell me which tribe Battuta was from. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Of course the Zenata, Masmuda, Kitama, Sanhaja were the majority of the Moors who invaded Spain. The "Moorish Arabs" or Arabians were the other blacks who invaded Spain.
What?? So the Arabs were all Blacks too??? Do people on here really believe this woman?
[
Umm... no - all the Arabs aren't blacks. Only some of them - including the remnants of the original ones, just like they and the Syrians said they were.
If you want me to post descriptions of ALL the original Arabians - again - before Arabia was "inundated by foreigners" - I will.
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.
White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.
Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.
Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.
When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.
Stop spreading lies about Africans.
The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.
If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.
There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.
The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.
"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."
See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,
THe Lamtuna were the modern Kel Aulamidden Tuareg of NIGER. Those were the Almoravids whether or not they brought other blacks with them or not. And whether you like it or not.
You are talking about Yusef the Tuareg who is either of noble or vassal stock. Tuareg are what they are and if you want to think of them as not East African in origin that is your prerogative. Yes, Yusef - a dark brown skinned kinky haired African went with 15,000 of HIS PEOPLE and other black Africans into Andalusia.
Now you can tell me which tribe Battuta was from.
I forgot to mention that true islamic peoples other than Central Asians (TurkoPersians) never would have represented themselves in human form. it was against Islam. I doubt the many so-called depictions of Ibn Battuta were even done by people who saw him. I have seen many on line depictions none of which look alike.lol!
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.
White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.
Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.
Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.
When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.
Stop spreading lies about Africans.
The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.
If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.
There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.
The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.
"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."
See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,
THe Lamtuna were the modern Kel Aulamidden Tuareg of NIGER. Those were the Almoravids whether or not they brought other blacks with them or not. And whether you like it or not.
You are talking about Yusef the Tuareg who is either of noble or vassal stock. Tuareg are what they are and if you want to think of them as not East African in origin that is your prerogative. Yes, Yusef - a dark brown skinned kinky haired African went with 15,000 of HIS PEOPLE and other black Africans into Andalusia.
Now you can tell me which tribe Battuta was from.
I forgot to mention that true islamic peoples other than Central Asians (TurkoPersians) never would have represented themselves in human form. it was against Islam. I doubt the many so-called depictions of Ibn Battuta were even done by people who saw him. I have seen many on line depictions none of which look alike.lol!
This isn't entirely true. Shi'a can have human forms in their art. Sunnis can not.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: This is Hebrews not muslim!
Not long ago, I came across a thought-provoking article by Jamal Boudouma about the history of Morocco’s flag and our national hymn. If you go back to Issue No. 262 of the Moroccan weekly TelQuel, you will find out that it was General Lyautey who, through a dahir (royal decree) promulgated on November 17, 1917, gave the Moroccan flag the shape and colors with which we are now familiar. TelQuel doesn’t mention that the French added a mini tricolore on the upper left corner to indicate who were the actual rulers of the country at the time, but this detail is not the point of the article. The point is to show that prior to this period, the Moroccan flag sported not the five-pointed star (pentagram), but the Star of David (the hexagram known in Arabic as Khatam Suleyman and in Judaism as the Seal of Solomon). Morocco’s Semitic heritage, which it shares with Jews, was acknowledged on the most visible symbol of the nation, until French colonialists thought differently.
I consulted a major study of the flags of Islam and discovered that according to an old Spanish manuscript, a flag used in Morocco between the 11th and 13th centuries consisted of a white and black chessboard inside an all-red flag. It was an interesting compromise, indicating the various poles of commitment within the Andalusian-Moroccan sphere, with white referring to the Umayyads, black to the Abbasids, and red to the Fatimids, a Shiite group. By the 18th century, according to the political scientist and vexillologist Pierre C. Lux-Wurm, the black element had disappeared. (Vexillology, from the Latin vexillum, which, in Roman times, designated the standard of the army, is the study of flags.) The flag on a shipwrecked Moroccan ship displayed a red flag with two crossed white swords. By the 20th century, the Moroccan flag appeared with two gold-rimmed interlaced squares. Meanwhile, Abdelkrim Khattabi used a red flag with the white upper left part containing a crescent, while the red flag of the ephemeral Republic of Rif featured a white lozenge containing a crescent and the Star of David. The Star of David, in fact, was used in the Spanish zone of influence until 1956.
Reading more on the Seal of Solomon, or, as it later became known among the Ashkenazi Jews, the Star of David, one finds mutual influences in usage of this symbol among Jews and Muslims, as both sought to associate themselves with the legacy of the wise king Solomon (Shlomo, in Hebrew, which, as in Arabic, is associated with the term shalom, or peace), son of the other biblical figure, King David. Interestingly, it was the Alawite monarch, Sultan Moulay Suleyman (popularly known as Moulay Slimane in Morocco) who used the Seal of Solomon on the newly minted bronze coins in the late 18th century to add to the standard coin metals in the Islamic world--gold and silver--and, at the same time, protect the new money with the magical powers of his ancient namesake. Moulay Suleyman Sultanate, bronze coin
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
The Muslims also used this symbol? did not know.
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
but you not explained why the harp is written in Hebrew.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: but you not explained why the harp is written in Hebrew.
O que estamos vendo aqui é um homem tocando uma harpa. As cordas da harpa são realizadas pela ponte da harpa, um pedaço de madeira atravessando. No outro lado da ponte vemos as extremidades pequenas das cordas de suspensão para fora frouxamente. Bem parecido com letras hebraicas, mas eles não são letras hebraicas. O narrador do vídeo quer estes mouros muçulmanos de serem judeus. Mas eles não são judeus. Olhe para as duas últimas seqüências da esquerda. Eles ficam fora um pouco sobre o corpo do harpa. Estes não são cartas pintadas sobre o instrumento. Eles são apenas cadeias
What we are seeing here is a man playing a harp. The harp strings are held by the bridge of the harp, a crossing piece of wood. On the other side of the bridge we see the small ends of the strings hanging out loosely. They look similar to Hebrew letters but they aren't Hebrew letters. The narrator of the video wants these Muslim Moors to be Jews. But they aren't jews. Look at the last two strings of the left. They hang off a little bit over the harp's body. These are not letters painted on the instrument. They are only strings
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
Então prove que estas não são letras do alfabeto hebraico.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: Então prove que estas não são letras do alfabeto hebraico.
levar 20 peças curtas de corda. Jogá-los no chão. Você provavelmente encontrará algumas letras hebraicas e algumas letras de outras línguas diferentes. Você pode encontrar a letra "C" em Inglês ou um "U". Em seguida, perguntar-me a provar que não é a letra "C".
Você ganha é a letra "C" __________________________________
parar de ser bobo, as cordas da harpa são realizadas por uma peça transversal e as extremidades dos fios são soltos sair do outro lado. Mas as pessoas preferem fantasiar e inventar histórias de que gostam. É besteira.
Enviar um enail a judaica ou um erudito árabe eles lhe dirão aqueles que não são cadeias de letras. Então, o que se acidentalmente corresponde a uma letra hebraica, absurdo
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: Então prove que estas não são letras do alfabeto hebraico.
levar 20 peças curtas de corda. Jogá-los no chão. Você provavelmente encontrará algumas letras hebraicas e algumas letras de outras línguas diferentes. Você pode encontrar a letra "C" em Inglês ou um "U". Em seguida, perguntar-me a provar que não é a letra "C".
Você ganha é a letra "C" __________________________________
parar de ser bobo, as cordas da harpa são realizadas por uma peça transversal e as extremidades dos fios são soltos sair do outro lado. Mas as pessoas preferem fantasiar e inventar histórias de que gostam. É besteira.
Enviar um enail a judaica ou um erudito árabe eles lhe dirão aqueles que não são cadeias de letras. Então, o que se acidentalmente corresponde a uma letra hebraica, absurdo
your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.
The burden of proof is on the person who claims that strings on a harp are supposed Hebrew letters (and doesn't even have a word claimed) It's ridiculous, you can even see a couple of the strings danging off the end of the instrument. The shapes are repeated anyway like nonsense, like this LLLLL CCCCCC end the retardation, thanks Look up an ancient Hebrew expert, send an email If you want to waste your time and mine
Here is the other item in the video:
The ornate soundhole of an Oud misconstrued as a Star of David. (there are many variations and the painting is damaged) Irrelevant anyway becasue I have already shown the use of the Seal of Solomon six pointed star sometimes by Muslims in earlier periods
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Melchior,
LOL, you point out that "white" in Africa refers to certain groups. The neighbourhood I know best is one where Malinke and Peuls intermingle. Never ever have I heard a Peul refer himself/herself as "white". LOL. Amazing. In fact, the Peul world for "white man" is "porto"--which is used for any white.
The point is that in Africa people refer to themselves mainly in terms of ethnicity and nationality--not colour.
Even Mauritanians who are often of a fair/yellow colour are nver called "white"--that's a European intervention here--but rather as "Naah". They wear distinctive clothing and that's how they are recognised. They are not Arabs as some think and even some Naah want to identify with Arabia--with lies about their origins.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.
The burden of proof is on the person who claims that strings on a harp are supposed Hebrew letters (and doesn't even have a word claimed) It's ridiculous, you can even see a couple of the strings danging off the end of the instrument. The shapes are repeated anyway like nonsense, like this LLLLL CCCCCC end the retardation, thanks Look up an ancient Hebrew expert, send an email If you want to waste your time and mine
Here is the other item in the video:
The ornate soundhole of an Oud misconstrued as a Star of David. (there are many variations and the painting is damaged) Irrelevant anyway becasue I have already shown the use of the Seal of Solomon six pointed star sometimes by Muslims in earlier periods
We've had enough of your dribble.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.
The burden of proof is on the person who claims that strings on a harp are supposed Hebrew letters (and doesn't even have a word claimed) It's ridiculous, you can even see a couple of the strings danging off the end of the instrument. The shapes are repeated anyway like nonsense, like this LLLLL CCCCCC end the retardation, thanks Look up an ancient Hebrew expert, send an email If you want to waste your time and mine
Here is the other item in the video:
The ornate soundhole of an Oud misconstrued as a Star of David. (there are many variations and the painting is damaged) Irrelevant anyway becasue I have already shown the use of the Seal of Solomon six pointed star sometimes by Muslims in earlier periods
Again, you, a googling know nothing, who has proven time and again you have no concept of history or even how to use your mind properly, doesn't amount to anything. You said it isn't hebrew, you have done little to prove it, other than by using your demented mind, which is deficient. You have shown that time and again. Your lack of history is staggering. You do know there were jews in north africa and they even fought off the Arab invasion for some time? It isn't far fetched to think there may have been Black Jews in Spain at some point. Googling for five minutes to prove your point will never, and I mean never trump a true command of history.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Image of the Battle of Puig between Christians and Almohade Armies. Note the image of Saint George slaying a Moor in the center:
The symbolism of the flag of Saint George goes back to the fact that the Crown of Aragon had allied itself with the Holy See of the Christian church (in other words, asked for aid from other Christian kingdoms) against the Moors and often whenever they won a battle against the Moors they invoked the image of St. George Matamoros (the moor slayer) as the reason for their victory. The heads of the moors are representations of the heads of dead Moorish kings and/or soldiers.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Note also this later depiction of blacks fighting against Christians in the Monastery of Santa María de Valbuena in Spain (Valledolid)
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Note also this later depiction of blacks fighting against Christians in the Monastery of Santa María de Valbuena in Spain (Valledolid)
I don't know why you would call a picture in heavy shadow "better" than one that is not in heavy shadow.
Clearly in the heavily shadowed 2nd picture we can see both dark skinned individauls and lighter skinned individuals. How can you call this a depiction of blacks? At best the lighter skinned individuals are of unknown ethnicity.
It looks similar to the multi ethnic combination in this 13th century piece from Alfonso X
_________________________________________mourus________________ Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
How can European writers stated that the Moors were white when so many Spanish paintings and Church murals depicted them as black and metis.Great stela of Neter Set nickname Geoge(George) fighting Apophis.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by mena7: How can European writers stated that the Moors were white when so many Spanish paintings and Church murals depicted them as black and metis.
I never heard a European writer say the Moors were white do you have a quote?
Historically "Moor" was not a word that people who got called that called themselves. The Almoravid Moorish armies who invaded Spain were comprised of a mix of Berbers and other Africans and Arabs Some had dark skin others light brown or medium intermixed and called "Moors" by outsiders. Look at Morocco. It's way at the top of Africa as far from the eqautor as the kalahari desert. Look at the San people in the Kalahari, ther are not heavily dark. On top of this nomadic people of North Africa have a long history of being mixed ethnically from before Muhammad was even born The Europeans came up with the term "Moor" and to them it meant any light brown to dark brown Muslim who lived in Africa.
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
The name of George in St George come from Egyptian Neter Set nickname Geoge/Jeoje.The color of Set was blue and red.The red cross was the symbol of Set.Worshiper of Set paint there hair red to honor the sunSet.The name Palestine come from Peleset meaning worshiper or follower of Set(Astrotheology).Doug M nice Stela of Neter Set slaying the dragon Apepsi.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER) Online Encyclopedia Originally appearing in Volume V28, Page 967 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.
quote: ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER) , a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home . They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.) . The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin . The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population .
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moors4.jpg?w=500[/IMG]
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