This is topic FORGET ANCIENT EGYPT FOCUS ON YOUR HEBREW ORIGINS INSTEAD in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
Think about this folks. Our ancestors were slaves to the ancient Egyptians for four hundred years. The Egyptians did horrible things to those ancestors similar to what happened to the slaves during the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade.

Glorifying ancient Egypt is no different to black people glorifying the white people that enslaved, raped, and burnt to death their ancestors from Africa.

THINK about it people! What good is ancient Egypt to us? Forget about ancient Egypt. Let us focus on our Hebrew origins instead. Furthermore, thanks to the book: "The Call To The Hebrews," you can actually prove your Hebrew origins. Something you can never do with ancient Egypt. So why bother? Lets focus on our Hebrew origins. That is who we are.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
Take a look at the following images. It is a crime to forget our ancestors who went through such great suffering.


 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Energy that's not Assyrian pottery but early Kemetian similar to Narmer's palette and why would Hebrews make better ancestors than Kemetians anyways,plus if I am not mistaken those figures were lower pre-unified Kemetians themselves not Hebrews,they were being conquered or assimilated by folks from the south pressing northwards,a messy deal it was in any case.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
Brada history based on ancestry needs to be proven. Failing that we risk glorifying people who were oppressors and deadly enemies to our real ancestors. That is a terrible shame and makes us look stupid.

When you say we are kemetians, can you prove it? If not, why dwell on it? It makes no sense whatsoever to dwell on ancestry that one can not prove. That is my point.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
But hardly anyone here is claiming direct Kemetian ancestry in the same way as one claim Ashanti,Zulu,Malian,Twa, or any other off course I am saying this as a diasporan Black of general African decent and not Continental African.
 

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Posted by Fruity Reed (Member # 15917) on :
 
I yes I am a continental African who can locate his origin to a village but still... I embrace whatever African cultures I find intriguing, beautiful and just go with whatever I happen to be feeling.

That's the beautiful thing about Alkebulan, you can have it however you want it, you can switch it up if your particular locale bored you to death.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Another strange character. What about that website or blog you were building . . .bro?

BTW - MOST of us are NOT claiming we are direct descendants of the AEians. At least not me. Most likely my immediate forefathers were slaves from the Western part of Africa. Maybe even Mozambique, since I carry L2a1a.

But that doesn't negate the fact that AEians were indigenous Black Africans. And we are related through genetics,PN2, culture and more distant origin.

We have a lot more in common with AEians than the people who came from the Asian Steppes.
 

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Posted by Fruity Reed (Member # 15917) on :
 
Indeed. As I stated in previous post, the beautiful thing about Africa is the variety. And most African cultures will accept any civilised human beings to become natives with them through intermarriage.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
But hardly anyone here is claiming direct Kemetian ancestry in the same way as one claim Ashanti,Zulu,Malian,Twa, or any other off course I am saying this as a diasporan Black of general African decent and not Continental African.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Another strange character. What about that website or blog you were building . . .bro?

BTW - MOST of us are NOT claiming we are direct descendants of the AEians. At least not me. Most likely my immediate forefathers were slaves from the Western part of Africa. Maybe even Mozambique, since I carry L2a1a.

But that doesn't negate the fact that AEians were indigenous Black Africans. And we are related through genetics,PN2, culture and more distant origin.

We have a lot more in common with AEians than the people who came from the Asian Steppes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fruity Reed:
Documentation is the problem. The masses can only study what has been documented and AE is the best thus far in Africa.

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quote:

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Oh but Brada we do. Why come here and waste hours on discussions on ancient Egypt if one does not feel any connection with Kemet? In fact this whole post is denouncing the countless hours we spend discussion Kemet and not Africa in general. If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming kemitian descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former Slave Coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the Slave Coast and discuss Kemet instead? The people of of the former Slave Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

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Didn't say we had no connection to Kemet but this site was made for things primarily related to Kemet as it is called EgyptSearch.com and like Fruity said documentation maybe a problem, But I think most African and African descendant folks here focus on Kemet because they view it as the ground zero if you will in reclaiming general African history and studies from centuries of Eurocentric mis-appropriation,more damning in my view is the focus on any non African civilization in favor of everywhere else of late.

But you are right about the fact that other civilization and regions in Africa get the short thrift,for hard as I and a few others have tried very few here have any deep interest in what happened in other regions of Africa.
 

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Posted by Fruity Reed (Member # 15917) on :
 

 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fruity Reed:
^ I see what you mean (in your previous post). Very interesting .

I think it's the images and symbolism. They remind us of something we can't seem to pinpoint... they remind me of a lost story, an intriguing story, something old, priceless, timeless and beautiful but somehow forgotten.

It's like seeing pictures from past times when you were having a good time...and it's not that you don't remember those times, you do...but there seems to be some sort of "it happened so long ago I can't remember the details" amnesia...

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And you know what is even more sad, the Hebrews were Africans. Fellow Africans with a glorious and documented history we unwittingly ignore. Did you know until the Suez canal divided Africa from the Middle East, most of (Palestine) Israel was part of the African mainland. Now white Europeans (Ashkenazi Jews) have moved in there and are busy making it their own. If we do nothing that part of Africa will be lost to we the TRUE descendants of the Hebrews for good.

We need to claim back what is ours. We can start by opening discussions on the Hebrews and let more black people know about our true ancestry.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Well if you want to reclaim the Levant and Arabia as part of greater Africa,there may well be geographical/geological even historic/cultural justification for doing so. the problem is the majority of the folks who resides in those regions today.

 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
This is who we are. The following is an image of the Ewe ( pronounced Erverh) people of the former Slave Coast celebrating the Hogbetsotso festival. The festival is the EXODUS story as it is recorded in the Bible, and this festival is the commemoration of the peoples' main history. Erverh is the proper name of the ancient Hebrews.


 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
This is from a Ghana site so take it for what it's worth but this is what "they" said about the Hogbetsotso festival

Hogbetsotso Festival
The Anlo Ewes, an ethnic group on the eastern coast of Ghana, are believed to have settled in Notsie in Togo when they first migrated from Southern Sudan. Legend has it that they escaped from the tyrannical ruler of Notsie, Ago-Koli, by walking backwards. In order to commemorate the exodus and the bravery of their traditional rulers who led them on the journey, the people created this annual ""Festival of the Exodus"". There are many ceremonies associated with the festival, including a peace-making period where all outstanding problems are supposed to be resolved. This is a purification ceremony of the traditional stool and a period of general cleaning when the villages are swept and rubbish burnt. This cleaning ceremony begins at the Volta Estuary and goes on for days until it finally reaches the Mono River in the Republic of Benin. An essential aspect of the festival is a durbar of Chiefs and the people. Chiefs dress in very colouful regalia and sit in state to receive homage from their subjects. Dancing, singing and general merry-making go on throughout the festival. The main durbars always take place on the first Saturday of November in Anloga, 15km west of Keta, a two and half hour drive from Accra.
http://www.ghanaexpeditions.com/regions/highlight_detail.asp?id=&rdid=112

Now I don't know if the local elders and folks agree with the above or not, but what if both type of exodus became merged in local tradition.

Btw this also gave lie to those who claimed no connections happened between the river valleys.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Energy - Many people complain about the lack of threads about sub-Saharan Africa, but do nothing about it. So what you are doing is great in that regard, but I really don't understand the Hebrew connection, could you please detail the history of this connection.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Now I don't know if the local elders and folks agree with the above or not, but what if both type of exodus became merged in local tradition.

Btw this also gave lie to those who claimed no connections happened between the river valleys.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Energy - Many people complain about the lack of threads about sub-Saharan Africa, but do nothing about it. So what you are doing is great in that regard, but I really don't understand the Hebrew connection, could you please detail the history of this connection.

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Funny you should say this Mike. I come here to Egyptsearch to look for you and what else you have unearthed. I like the way you eschew speculation as others do but rather deal with FACTS by showing images of the past. Others who are jealous of your work call it picture spamming but my brother believe me, YOU to me are a godsend. The way you can dig up ancient images of people and artefacts is what we need to prove our ancestry in Africa. And thus by extension prove the ancestry of our brothers and sisters in the Americas. You are not even aware of the valuable work you do. Just keep going, my brother, don't stop. You dig up the images, and people like me will fill in the blanks/links with our oral traditions to tell the story of the black race.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 


This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Jews being led inton exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Oxford University Press, 1998

quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
Why come here and waste hours on discussions on ancient Egypt if one does not feel any connection with Kemet? In fact this whole post is denouncing the countless hours we spend discussing Kemet and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming kemitian descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former Slave Coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the Slave Coast and discuss Kemet instead?

The people of of the former Slave Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

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Why come here and waste hours on discussions on Israel if one does not feel any connection with Israel? In fact your whole post is denouncing the countless hours Energy spends discussing Israel and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming Hebrew descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former slave coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the West Coast and discuss Israel instead?

The people of the West Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.





 

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Posted by Fruity Reed (Member # 15917) on :
 
^^ South,



 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
Why come here and waste hours on discussions on Israel if one does not feel any connection with Israel? In fact your whole post is denouncing the countless hours Energy spends discussing Israel and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming Hebrew descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former slave coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the West Coast and discuss Israel instead?

The people of the West Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
You got it wrong there Lioness, I talk about the HEBREWS, which is who I am. I don't spend even a second discussing Israel.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
You got it wrong there Lioness, I talk about the HEBREWS, which is who I am. I don't spend even a second discussing Israel.

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Jerusalem appears in the Bible 641 times with its Hebrew name and 26 times in its Aramaic name, "Yerushalem"
What modern day country is the location of ancient Jerusalem in?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

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Where is your evidence to the contrary of the eye witness accounts of what the Hebrews wrote?

By saying the Hebrews aka the Erverhs were a bunch of liars you are saying your black ancestors were a bunch of Liars. That is a HUGE claim. I hope you have evidence to back up that statement.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
Think about this folks. Our ancestors were slaves to the ancient Egyptians for four hundred years. The Egyptians did horrible things to those ancestors similar to what happened to the slaves during the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade.

Glorifying ancient Egypt is no different to black people glorifying the white people that enslaved, raped, and burnt to death their ancestors from Africa.

THINK about it people! What good is ancient Egypt to us? Forget about ancient Egypt. Let us focus on our Hebrew origins instead. Furthermore, thanks to the book: "The Call To The Hebrews," you can actually prove your Hebrew origins. Something you can never do with ancient Egypt. So why bother? Lets focus on our Hebrew origins. That is who we are.

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^^Agreed. The following information offers much on
"Hebrew" origins.




Recent studies find the ancient Egyptians had a
tropical body plan like sub-Saharan 'black' Africans
and were not cold-adapted like European type
populations. Tropical body plans also indicate
darker-skin.


QUOTE:
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians
had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by
Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7
(a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths;
data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the
Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the
Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early
Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than
predicted from femoral length. Despite these
differences, all samples lie relatively clustered
together as compared to the other populations."
(Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient
Egyptian stature and body proportions". American
Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.


a 2008 Study puts the ancient Egyptians closer to
US Blacks than whites:

Quotes:

"Intralimb (crural and brachial) indices are
significantly higher in ancient Egyptians than in
American Whites (except crural index among
females), i.e., Egyptians have relatively longer distal
segments (Table 4). Intralimb indices are not
significantly different between Egyptians and
American Blacks... Many of those who have studied
ancient Egyptians have commented on their
characteristically ''tropical'' or ''African'' body plan
(Warren, 1897; Masali, 1972; Robins, 1983; Robins
and Shute, 1983, 1984, 1986; Zakrzewski, 2003).
Egyptians also fall within the range of modern
African populations (Ruff and Walker, 1993), but
close to the upper limit of modern Europeans as well,
at least for the crural index (brachial indices are
definitely more ''African'').. In terms of femoral and
tibial length to total skeletal height proportions, we
found that ancient Egyptians are significantly
different from US Blacks, although still closer to
Blacks than to Whites.


Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old
Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals,
and workers and high officials in our sample found
no statistically significant differences among them.
Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for
differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians
over a wider temporal range. In general, recent
studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians
support scenarios of biological continuity through
time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and
qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from
Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the
presence of a few outliers but concluding that the
dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous
and that the affinities observed indicate overall
biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic
through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.

Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive
summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies
and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods.
She found that the earlier samples were relatively
more homogeneous in comparison to the later
groups. However, overall results indicated genetic
continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early
Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic
diversity within the population, suggesting an
indigenous process of state formation. She also
concluded that while the biological patterning of the
Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent
temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the
stature estimation formulae developed here may be
broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian
populations.."
("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new
technique based on anatomical reconstruction of
stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff,
Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman,
Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008,
Jun;136(2):147-55


Older limb studies find the same:

"In this regard it is interesting to note that limb
proportions of Predynastic Naqada people in Upper
Egypt are reported to be "Super-Negroid," meaning
that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion
of tropical Africans.....skin color intensification and
distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people
have been long-term residents of the tropics." (C.L.
Brace, 1993. Clines and clusters..")


"An attempt has been made to estimate male and
female Egyptian stature from long bone length using
Trotter & Gleser negro stature formulae, previous
work by the authors having shown that these rather
than white formulae give more consistent results with
male dynastic material... When consistency has been
achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are
founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs
are even longer in relation to the proximal segments
than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions
are termed "super-negroid"...

Robins (1983) and Robins & Shute (1983) have
shown that more consistent results are obtained from
ancient Egyptian male skeletons if Trotter & Gleser
formulae for negro are used, rather than those for
whites which have always been applied in the past. ..
their physical proportions were more like modern
negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that
were relatively long compared with the trunk, and
distal segments that were long compared with the
proximal segments. If ancient Egyptian males had
what may be termed negroid proportions, it seems
reasonable that females did likewise."
(Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986. Predynastic Egyptian
stature and physical proportions. Hum Evol
1:313-324. Ruff CB. 1994.)





The ancient Badarians were quite representative of
ancient Egyptians as a whole and showed clear links
with tropical Africans to the south. They have been
sometimes excluded in studies of the ancient
Egyptian population, which shows continuity in its
history, not mass influxes of foreigners until the late
periods.

Quotes:
"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian
sample has been described as forming a
morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and
other southern (or \Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935,
1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal,
1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric
trait studies have found this group to be similar to
other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry
and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly
different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967).
Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has
suggested that the Badarian population is at the
centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006),
thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity
across Egyptian time periods. From the central
location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the
current study finds the Badarian to be relatively
morphologically close to the centroid of all the
Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to
exhibit
greatest morphological similarity with the temporally
successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological
distinctiveness
of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also
been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).

These results suggest that the EDyn do form a
distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with
other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2)
suggests that although their morphology is
distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other
time periods. These results therefore do not support
the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939;
Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the
Egyptian state was not the product of mass
movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile
region, but rather that it was the result of primarily
indigenous development combined with prolonged
small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military,
or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state
formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous
process, but that it may have occurred in association
with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile
Valley. This potential in-migration may have
occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A
possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed
through increasing control of trade and raw
materials, or due to military actions, potentially
associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a
corridor for prolonged small scale movements
through the desert environment.
(Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity
or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient
Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)



Ancient Egyptians most related to other Africans
and are part of a Nilotic continuity rather than
something Mediterranean or Middle Eastern

"Certainly there was some foreign admixture [in
Egypt], but basically a homogeneous African
population had lived in the Nile Valley from ancient
to modern times... [the] Badarian people, who
developed the earliest Predynastic Egyptian culture,
already exhibited the mix of North African and
Sub-Saharan physical traits that have typified
Egyptians ever since (Hassan 1985; Yurco 1989;
Trigger 1978; Keita 1990.. et al.,)... The peoples of
Egypt, the Sudan, and much of East African Ethiopia
and Somalia are now generally regarded as a Nilotic
continuity, with widely ranging physical features
(complexions light to dark, various hair and
craniofacial types) but with powerful common
cultural traits, including cattle pastoralist traditions.."
(Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review," 1996 -in
Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, Black
Athena Revisited, 1996, The University of North
Carolina Press, p. 62-100)


African peoples are the most diverse in the world
whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial
methods. Attempts to deny this are rooted in racism
and error. African people, particularly
SUB-SAHARAN Africans, vary the most in how
they look, more so than any other population in the
world.

"Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic
regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals
into regional aggregates. This method can potentially
bias results if there are differences in population
substructure within regions, since increased variation
among local populations could inflate regional
diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional
diversity is to compute the mean diversity within
local populations. Both methods are applied to a
global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57
measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local
populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan
Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia,
and the Americas. Each region is represented by
three local populations.

Both methods for estimating regional diversity show
sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of
phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic
studies."
(Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional
Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population
Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number
5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)

"The living peoples of the African continent are
diverse in facial characteristics, stature, skin color,
hair form, genetics, and other characteristics. No one
set of characteristics is more African than another.
Variability is also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to
which the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously
restricted. There is a problem with definitions.
Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural factors,
like language, that exclude developments that clearly
arose in Africa. For example, sometimes even the
Horn of Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is
excluded because of geography and language and the
fact that some of its peoples have narrow noses and
faces.

However, the Horn is at the same latitude as Nigeria,
and its languages are African. The latitude of 15
degree passes through Timbuktu, surely in
"sub-Saharan Africa," as well as Khartoum in Sudan;
both are north of the Horn. Another false idea is that
supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were peopled after
the emergence of "Europeans" or Near Easterners by
populations coming from outside Africa. Hence, the
ancient Egyptians in some writings have been
de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the
definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted in racism
and earlier, erroneous "scientific" approaches." (S.
Keita, "The Diversity of Indigenous Africans," in
Egypt in Africa, Theodore Clenko, Editor (1996),
pp. 104-105. [10])



Modern DNA studies find even though some
African peoples look different, they are genetically
related through the PN2 transition clade of the
Y-chromosone. Haplogroup E links numerous
peoples together even though they don't look exactly
the same.

"But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2
transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the
boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true
breeding populations across a great geographical
expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors,
hair forms and physiognomies have substantial
percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form
closely related clades with each other, but not with
others who are phenotypically similar. The
individuals in the morphologically or geographically
defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private'
distinct lineages restricted to each of them." (S O Y
Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human
variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)


"Recall that the Horn-Nile Valley crania show, as a
group, the largest overlap with other regions. A
review of the recent literature indicates that there are
male lineage ties between African peoples who have
been traditionally labeled as being ''racially'' different,
with ''racially'' implying an ontologically deep divide.
The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines
a lineage (within the YAPþ derived haplogroup E or
III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last
glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern
humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This
mutation forms a clade that has two daughter
subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215
(or 215/M35) and M2) that unites numerous
phenotypically variant African populations from the
supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions.."
(S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric
craniofacial variation at the individual level: A
comparative study using principal component
analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679-689, 2004.)
keita2004neanalysis.htm

"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and
genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct
ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using
mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers
consistently indicate that Africa is the most
genetically diverse region of the world." (Tishkoff
SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African
populations: human evolution and complex disease.
Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)


DNA of some modern Egyptians found a genetic
ancestral heritage to East Africa:
"The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58
individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34
individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an
ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing
the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP
markers. This sedentary population presented
similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and
L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the
West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H
to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency
(17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and
phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna
population with other Egyptian, Near East and
sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and
Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that
the Gurna population was not isolated from
neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that
the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an
ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East
African population, characterized by a high M1
haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the
Egyptian population may be the result of further
influence of neighbouring populations on this
ancestral population."
(Stevanovitch A, Gilles A, Bouzaid E, et al. (2004)
Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary
population from Egypt.Ann Hum Genet. 68(Pt
1):23-39.)

Tishkoff et al on Africa having the most genetic
diversity:

"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and
genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct
ethnic groups and languages (see online link to
Ethnologue). Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA
and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that
Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the
world(TABLE 1).However,most studies report only
a few markers in divergent African populations,
which makes it difficult to draw general conclusions
about the levels and patterns of genetic diversity in
these populations (FIG. 1). Because genetic studies
have been biased towards more economically
developed African countries that have key research
or medical centres, populations from more
underdeveloped or politically unstable regions of
Africa remain undersampled (FIG. 1). Historically,
human population genetic studies have relied on one
or two African populations as being representative of
African diversity, but recent studies show extensive
genetic variation among even geographically close
African populations, which indicates that there is not
a single 'representative' African population."
-- Tishkoff NATURE REVIEWS | GENETICS
VOLUME 3 | AUGUST 2002


"Genetic studies that attempt to recover the
biological history of the species have generally found
that there is a split between their restricted African
samples and "the rest of the world." These
approaches conceptualize human population history
as a series of bifurcations with each node being
relatively uniform. The "Africans" usually used are
either the short statured Aka or Mbuti, Khoisan
speakers, or West African stereotype s, in keeping
with a socially, not scientifically constructed concept
of African. Studies using individuals as the unit of
analysis evince a different pattern. A select subset of
Africans called the "group of 49" forms a unit versus
the rest of humankind. However the latter individuals
("rest of humankind") also includes non-East African
sub-Saharans. Hence there is no "racial" split. As has
been stated, the idea that human variation can be
described as being structured by subspecies(races)
that are treated as lineages is fundamentally false. In
actuality, also, although averages are used, the gene
studies usually give us histories that are not
necessarily the same as population histories."
Writing African History Chapter 4, Physical
Anthropology and African History, Shomarka Keita
University of Rochester Press p.134

Continent wide African DNA linkages
"The most extensive pan-African haplotype (16189
16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the
L2a1 haplogroup. This sequence is observed in West
Africa among the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in
North Africa among the Maure, Hausa, Fulbe, and
others; in Central Africa among the Bamileke, Fali,
and others; in South Africa among the Khoisan
family including the Khwe and Bantu speakers; and in
East Africa among the Kikuyu. Closely related
variants are observed among the Tuareg in North and
West Africa and among the East African Dinka and
Somali."
(-- Bert Ely , Jamie Lee Wilson , Fatimah Jackson
and Bruce A Jackson. (2006). African-American
mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in
multiple African ethnic groups. BMC Biology 2006,
4:34)

"It is of interest that the M35 and M2 lineages are
united by a mutation - the PN2 transition. This PN2
defined clade originated in East Africa, where various
populations have a notable frequency of its underived
state. This would suggest that an ancient population
in East Africa, or more correctly its males, form the
basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic
populations - and their subsequent descendants in the
present day."
(--Bengston, John D. (ed.), In Hot Pursuit of
Language in Prehistory: Essays in the four fields of
anthropology. 2008. John Benjamins Publishing: pp.
3-16)



Egyptian Y-chromosome haplotypes show
preponderance is with African clusters not Europe or
the Near East


Other DNA quotes from S.O.Y. Keita
See: http://www.geocities.com/keitadnaquotes.htm


Recent DNA studies of the Sudan show genetic
unity and linkage between the Sudanic, Horn,
Egyptian, Nubian and other Nilotic peoples,
confirming earlier skeletal/cranial studies and
historical data. (Yurco (1989, 1996), Keita
(1993,2004, 2005) Lovell (1999), Zakrewski (2003,
2007) et. al). Of note is that DNA data shows that
some peoples linked to one of the oldest Egyptian
populations, the original Copts, have a significant
frequency of the B-M60 marker, indicating early
colonization of Egypt by Nilotics in the state
formation period.

QUOTES:

"Haplogroup E-M78, however, is more widely
distributed and is thought to have an origin in eastern
African. More recently, this haplogroup has been
carefully dissected and was found to depict several
well-established subclades with defined geographical
clustering (Cruciani et al., 2006, 2007). Although this
haplogroup is common to most Sudanese
populations, it has exceptionally high frequency
among populations like those of western Sudan
(particularly Darfur) and the Beja in eastern Sudan...
Although the PC plot places the Beja and Amhara
from Ethiopia in one sub-cluster based on shared
frequencies of the haplogroup J1, the distribution of
M78 subclades (Table 2) indicates that the Beja are
perhaps related as well to the Oromo on the basis of
the considerable frequencies of E-V32 among Oromo
in comparison to Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2007)...

These findings affirm the historical contact between
Ethiopia and eastern Sudan (1998), and the fact that
these populations speak languages of the Afroasiatic
family tree reinforces the strong correlation between
linguistic and genetic diversity (Cavalli-Sforza,
1997)."

"Genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in
southern Egypt is indicated by comparable
frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 subclade
among southern Egyptians."
[Hassan et al. Y-chromosome variation.." Am J. Phy
Anthro. v137,3. 316-323

"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting
Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in
Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living
record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant
frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of
a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably
by Nilotics in the early state formation, something
that conforms both to recorded history and to
Egyptian mythology."
Source:
(Hisham Y. Hassan 1, Peter A. Underhill 2, Luca L.
Cavalli-Sforza 2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim 1. (2008).
Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese:
Restricted gene flow, concordance with language,
geography, and history. Am J Phys Anthropology,
2008.
Volume 137 Issue 3, Pages 316 - 323)


Older research notes the physical makeup of the
original Copts, now confirmed by recent DNA data
above:
"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a
visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations,
and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt,
whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have
shown that the Negroid element was stronger in
predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early
movement northward along the banks of the Nile,
which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia
Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")


Haplogroup E3A and E3B represent more than 70%
of the Y-chromosones on the African continent, with
varying proportions found in different parts of the
continent. In some African populations for example,
E3B exceeds 80%. Migrations out of Africa, are
responsible for the spread of E3b to Europe.
Non-Africans thus acquired a sub-set f African genes
through this migration.


"In Europe, the overall frequency pattern of
haplogroup E-M78 does not support the hypothesis
of a uniform spread of people from a single parental
Near Eastern population... The Y chromosome
specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most
common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in
sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is
rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in
northern and eastern Africa. On the whole, these two
clades represent more than 70% of the Y
chromosomes of the African continent. A third clade
belonging to E3 (E3c or E-M329) has been recently
reported to be present only in eastern Africa, at low
frequencies.. The new topology of the E3 haplogroup
is suggestive of a relatively recent eastern African
origin for the majority of the chromosomes presently
found in sub-Saharan Africa."

"In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several
distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene
flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b
lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of
E-M78d chromosomes from eastern Africa into and
out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the
E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East.
Later events involved short-range migrations within
Africa (E-M78? and E-V6) and from northern Africa
into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78ß), as well as an
important range expansion from the Balkans to
western and southern-central Europe (E-M78a). This
latter expansion was the main contributor to the
present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe."

(Cruciani, F, et. al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis
of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes
Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out
Of Africa, Am J Hum Genet. 74(5): 1014-1022.)


Somalis link much more heavily with African
populations such as those in Kenya and Ethiopia than
Middle Eastern or European ones according to DNA
evidence. Eurasian genes only accounted for about
15% of the mix among Somalis, typically associated
with recent Arab influence. On such key common
DNA markers as E3b1, Europeans only weighed in at
5%, and Middle Easterners at approximately 6%.
The overwhelming link of Somalis- over 85% of the
total is with Africans. Kenya and Ethiopia are located
in "sub-Saharan" Africa.

"The high frequency (77.6%) of haplogroup E3b1
was characteristic of male Somalis. The frequency of
E3b1 was significantly lower in Ethiopian Oromos
(35.9%), Ethiopian Amharas (22.9%), Egyptians
(20.0%), Sudanese (17.5%), Kenyans (15.1%),10
Iraqis (6.3%), Northern Africans (6.1%), Southern
Europeans (0.5-5.1%) and sub-Saharan populations."
(Sanchez et al.,(2005) High frequencies of Y
chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1,
DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males, Eu J of
Hum Genet (2005) 13, 856-866)



Simplistic "race percentage" models
are dubious in Africa which has the
highest genetic diversity in the world.
That diversity proceeded from deeper
sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E.
Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All
other populations, including Europeans
and "Middle easterners" carry this
diversity which was built into Africa to
begin with. Africans thus don't need any
"race mix" to look different. Their
diversity is built-in and supplied the
whole globe. Any returnees or
"backflow" to Africa looked like
Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996,
Holliday 2003).

"These studies suggest a recent and
primary subdivision between African and
non-African populations, high levels of
divergence among African populations,
and a recent shared common ancestry of
non-African populations, from a
population originating in Africa. The
intermediate position, between African
and non-African populations, that the
Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in
the PCA plot also has been observed in
other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993;
Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due
either to shared common ancestry or to
recent gene flow. The fact that the
Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of
the sub-Saharan African haplotype
diversity and that the non-African
populations have a subset of the diversity
present in Ethiopians and Somalis makes
simple-admixture models less likely;
rather, these observations support the
hypothesis proposed by other
nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al.
1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998)
that populations in northeastern Africa
may have diverged from those in the rest
of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history
of modern African populations and that a
subset of this northeastern-African
population migrated out of Africa and
populated the rest of the globe. These
conclusions are supported by recent
mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al.
1999)."
[Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short
Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu
Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus:
Implications for Modern Human Origins.
Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]


Data on Ethiopian peoples like the
Oromo are underreported even though
they make up the largest group
percentage wise in the Ethiopian
population, (50%) and are often pooled
with others, hiding and obscuring their
overall contribution to the Ethiopian
gene pool.

"This difference, not revealed in the
study by Passarino et al. (1998), in which
the Oromo were underrepresented, might
reflect distinct population histories."
(--Semino, et al. (2002). Ethiopians and
Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the
Human Y..")

"These data, together with those
reported elsewhere (Ritte et al. 1993a,
1993b; Hammer et al. 2000) suggest that
the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion
without substantial genetic admixture
from Middle Eastern peoples and that
they can be considered an ethnic group
with essentially a continental African
genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5):
1197-1214. "A Back Migration from
Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported
by High-Resolution Analysis of Human
Y-Chromosome Haplotypes)

"An earlier generation of anthropologists
tried to explain face form in the Horn of
Africa as the result of admixture from
hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,”..
but that explanation founders on the
paradox of why that supposedly potent
“Caucasoid” people contributed a
dominant quantity of genes for nose and
face form but none for skin color or limb
proportions." --CL Brace, 1993

[Afrocentric critic Mary Leftokwitz
says Egypt was peopled by persons from
sub-Saharan Africa:

"Recent work on skeletons and DNA
suggests that the people who settled in
the Nile valley, like all of humankind,
came from somewhere south of the
Sahara; they were not (as some
nineteenth-century scholars had
supposed) invaders from the North. See
Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of
Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge
History of Africa (Cambridge,
Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol
I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies
and Comments on Ancient Egyptian
Biological Relationships," History in
Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
(Mary Lefkotitz (1997). Not Out of
Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an
Excuse to Teach Myth as History. Basic
Books. pg 242) [/QB][/QUOTE]


In Black Athena Revisited, Lefkowitz
finds similarity between Egyptians and
Sudanics and recommends the work of
conservative anthropologist Nancy
Lovell for more research on the
subject.

Quote:
"not surprisingly, the Egyptian skulls
were not very distance from the Jebel
Moya [a Neolithic site in the southern
Sudan] skulls, but were much more
distance from all others, including those
from West Africa. Such a study suggests
a closer genetic affinity between peoples
in Egypt and the northern Sudan, which
were close geographically and are known
to have had considerable cultural contact
throughout prehistory and pharaonic
history... Clearly more analyses of the
physical remains of ancient Egyptians
need to be done using current techniques,
such as those of Nancy Lovell at the
University of Alberta is using in her
work.."


Lefkotitz cites Keita 1993 in Not Out
of Africa. Here is Keita on the Jebel
Moya studies?

"Overall, when the Egyptian crania
are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish)
versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya,
Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the
Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are
the most appropriate comparative
regions which would have 'donated'
people, along with the Sahara and
Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking
to these regions for population flow (see
Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed
less overall affinity to Palestinian and
Byzantine remains than to other African
series, especially Sudanese." [/img]
S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments
on Ancient Egyptian Biological
Relationships," History in Africa 20
(1993) 129-54


Hereis the work of the anthropologist
so strongly recommended by Lefkowitz,
Nancy Lovell:


"There is now a sufficient body of
evidence from modern studies of skeletal
remains to indicate that the ancient
Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians,
exhibited physical characteristics that are
within the range of variation for ancient
and modern indigenous peoples of the
Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general,
the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and
Nubia had the greatest biological affinity
to people of the Sahara and more
southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, "
Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in
Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of
Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and
Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and
New York: Routledge, 1999) pp
328-332)

and

"must be placed in the context of
hypotheses informed by archaeological,
linguistic, geographic and other data. In
such contexts, the physical
anthropological evidence indicates that
early Nile Valley populations can be
identified as part of an African lineage,
but exhibiting local variation. This
variation represents the short and long
term effects of evolutionary forces, such
as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural
selection, influenced by culture and
geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, "
Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in
Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of
Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and
Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and
New York: Routledge, 1999). pp
328-332)

Obviously, this shows that the Egyptians
were completely white, and how foolish
the Afrocentrists are to reject this notion.
After all Afrocentric critic Mary
Lefkowitz recommends Lovell's
research..


The same Nancy Lovell recommended
by Lefkowitz studied dental traits among
some high status persons of the key
Egyptian Naqada group and found that
they resembled the peoples of Nubia.

T. Prowse, and N. Lovell "Concordance
of cranial and dental morphological traits
and evidence for endogamy in ancient
Egypt"
American journal of physical
anthropology. 1996, vol. 101, no2, pp.
237-246 (2 p.1/4)


A biological affinities study based on
frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in
skeletal samples from three cemeteries at
Predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the
results of a recent nonmetric dental
morphological analysis. Both cranial and
dental traits analyses indicate that the
individuals buried in a cemetery
characterized archaeologically as high
status are significantly different from
individuals buried in two other,
apparently non-elite cemeteries and that
the non-elite samples are not significantly
different from each other. A comparison
with neighboring Nile Valley skeletal
samples suggests that the high status
cemetery represents an endogamous
ruling or elite segment of the local
population at Naqada, which is more
closely related to populations in northern
Nubia than to neighboring populations in
southern Egypt.


Lefkowitz warns against Eurocentric
"racial" analysis as to the Egyptians and
Nubians.

Quote:
"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted
in two skin tones, black and dark brown.
These tones do not necessarily represent
actual skin tones in real life but may
serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer
from the next in a row in which the
figures overlap. Alternatively, the
brown-skinned people may be of Nubian
origin, and the black-skinned ones may
be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The
shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb
paintings, which varies considerably, may
not be a certain criterion for
distinguishing race. Specific symbols of
ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying
race in Egyptian representational art,
again, is difficult to do- probably because
race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that
is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians)
was not a criterion for differentiation
used by the ancient Egyptians...


Northern Egypt shows more physical
variation than the south, but not
necessarily as part of any significant 'race'
mix, but local, built-in variation. They
were closer to southerners than any other
peoples. In comparisons with "Middle
Eastern" populations of the same ancient
period, the Egyptians link more closely
with other Africans than the Middle
Easterners. Africans vary in how they
look because they have the highest
built-in molecular diversity to begin
with.

QUOTE(s):
"..sample populations available from
northern Egypt from before the 1st
Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi
Digla) turn out to be significantly
different from sample populations from
early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a
lack of common ancestors over a long
time. If there was a south-north cline
variation along the Nile valley it did not,
from this limited evidence, continue
smoothly on into southern Palestine. The
limb-length proportions of males from
the Egyptian sites group them with
Africans rather than with Europeans."
(Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy
of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p.
52-60)


"Individuals from different geographical
regions frequently plotted near each
other, revealing aspects of variation at
the level of individuals that is obscured
by concentrating on the most distinctive
facial traits once used to construct
''types.''The high level of African
interindividual variation in craniometric
pattern is reminiscent of the great level of
molecular diversity found in Africa."
(S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast
African metric craniofacial variation at
the individual level: A comparative study
using principal component analysis. Am.
J. Hum. Biol. 16:679-689, 2004.)

Quote on northern Egypt analysis- the
Qarunian (Faiyum) remains (c. 7000
BC)
"The body was that of a forty-year old
woman with a height of about 1.6
meters, who was of a more modern racial
type than the classic 'Mechtoid' of the
Fakhurian culture (see pp. 65-6), being
generally more gracile, having large teeth
and thick jaws bearing some resemblance
to the modern 'negroid' type." (Beatrix
Midant-Reynes, Ian Shaw (2000). The
Prehistory of Egypt. Wiley-Blackwell.
pg. 82)



Modern studies show diversity in how
people look is heavily based on distance
from sub-Saharan Africa, not merely
climate. In genetically diverse Africa,
broad-nosed people live on the cool or
cold mountain slopes of East Africa or
the hot, dry Sahara, and narrow-nosed
peoples like many Fulani like in the wet
tropics of West Africa.
Yellowish-skinned San tribes live in the
hot zones of Southern Africa.

"The relative importance of ancient
demography and climate in determining
worldwide patterns of human
within-population phenotypic diversity is
still open to debate. Several
morphometric traits have been argued to
be under selection by climatic factors, but
it is unclear whether climate affects the
global decline in morphological diversity
with increasing geographical distance
from sub-Saharan Africa. Using a large
database of male and female skull
measurements, we apply an explicit
framework to quantify the relative role of
climate and distance from Africa. We
show that distance from sub-Saharan
Africa is the sole determinant of human
within-population phenotypic diversity,
while climate plays no role. By selecting
the most informative set of traits, it was
possible to explain over half of the
worldwide variation in phenotypic
diversity. These results mirror those
previously obtained for genetic markers
and show that 'bones and molecules' are
in perfect agreement for humans."
(Distance from Africa, not climate,
explains within-population phenotypic
diversity in humans. (2008) by: Lia Betti,
François Balloux, William Amos,
Tsunehiko Hanihara, Andrea Manica,
Proceedings B: Biological Sciences,
2008/12/02)


Analysis of skeletal and cranial
remains reveals that the ancient
Egyptians of the early Dynastic and
pre-Dynastic phases, link closer to
nearby Saharan, Sudanic and East
African populations than Mediterranean
and Middle Eastern peoples. Greeks,
Romans, Hyskos, Arabs and others were
to appear later in Egyptian history.
Craniometric studies generally place
ancient Upper Egyptian populations
closer to the range of tropical Africans in
the Nile Valley and East Africa than to
Mediterraneans, or Middle
Easterners.

QUOTE(s):
S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments
on Ancient Egyptian Biological
Relationships," History in Africa 20
(1993) 129-54


"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are
evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish)
versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya,
Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the
Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are
the most appropriate comparative
regions which would have 'donated'
people, along with the Sahara and
Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking
to these regions for population flow (see
Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed
less overall affinity to Palestinian and
Byzantine remains than to other African
series, especially Sudanese." (Keita
1993)

"When the unlikely relationships [Indian
matches] and eliminated, the Egyptian
series are more similar overall to other
African series than to European or Near
Eastern (Byzantine or Palestinian)
series." (Keita 1993)

"Populations and cultures now found
south of the desert roamed far to the
north. The culture of Upper Egypt,
which became dynastic Egyptian
civilization, could fairly be called a
Sudanese transplant."(Egypt and
Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction.
Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by
Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut
Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 )

"Analysis of crania is the traditional
approach to assessing ancient population
origins, relationships, and diversity. In
studies based on anatomical traits and
measurements of crania, similarities have
been found between Nile Valley crania
from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years
ago and various African remains from
more recent times (see Thoma 1984;
Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and
Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of
crania from southern predynastic Egypt,
from the formative period (4000-3100
B.C.), show them usually to be more
similar to the crania of ancient Nubians,
Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups
from the Horn of Africa than to those of
dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or
modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The
Geographical Origins and Population
Relationships of Early Ancient
Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore
Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press,
1996, pp. 20-33)


"There is no archaeological, linguistic, or
historical data which indicate a European
or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to,
the Nile Valley during First Dynasty
times. Previous concepts about the origin
of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being
somehow external to the Nile Valley or
less native are not supported by
archaeology... In summary, the Abydos
First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal
a notable craniometric heterogeneity.
Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S.
(1992) Further Studies of Crania From
Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of
Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian
Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant
Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
87:245-254)"

"The predominant craniometric pattern in
the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern'
(tropical African variant), and this is
consistent with what would be expected
based on the literature and other results
(Keita, 1990). This pattern is seen in
both group and unknown analyses...
Archaeology and history seem to provide
the most parsimonious explanation for
the variation in the royal tombs at
Abydos.. Tomb design suggests the
presence of northerners in the south in
late Nakada times (Hoffman, 1988) when
the unification probably took place. Delta
names are attached to some of the tombs
at Abydos (Gardiner, 1961; Yurco, 1990,
personal communication), thus perhaps
supporting Petrie's (1939) and Gardiner's
contention that north-south marriages
were undertaken to legitimize the
hegemony of the south. The courtiers of
northern elites would have accompanied
them.

Given all of the above, it is probably not
possible to view the Abydos royal tomb
sample as representative of the general
southern Upper Egyptian population of
the time. Southern elites and/or their
descendants eventually came to be buried
in the north (Hoffman, 1988). Hence
early Second Dynasty kings and Djoser
(Dynasty 111) (Hayes, 1953) and his
descendants are not buried in Abydos.
Petrie (1939) states that the Third
Dynasty, buried in the north, was of
Sudanese origin, but southern Egypt is
equally likely. This perhaps explains
Harris and Weeks' (1973) suggested
findings of southern morphologies in
some Old Kingdom Giza remains, also
verified in portraiture (Drake, 1987).
Further study would be required to
ascertain trends in the general population
of both regions. The strong Sudanese
affinity noted in the unknown analyses
may reflect the Nubian interactions with
upper Egypt in predynastic times prior to
Egyptian unification (Williams,
1980,1986)..." (S. Keita (1992) Further
Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern
Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First
Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple
Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN
JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL
ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)


"When the Elephantine results were
added to a broader pooling of the
physical characteristics drawn from a
wide geographic region which includes
Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near
East quite strong affinities emerge
between Elephantine and populations
from Nubia, supporting a strong
south-north cline. (Barry Kemp. (2006)
Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a
Civilization. p. 54)


Gene flow into the Nubian area during
the Neolithic was not from reputed
"wandering Caucasoids" but from
tropical, Sub-Saharan types.

"Prior to the Neolithic, populations of
the Nile Valley in Nubia are very robust,
and, because of a gap in the fossil record,
it is difficult to connect them to later
populations. Some have postulated a
local evolution, due to diet change, while
others postulated migrations, especially
from the Sahara area. But between 5000
and 1000 BC, many cemeteries have
supplied a large amount of skeletons, and
the anatomical characters of Nubian
populations are easier to follow-up.
Twenty-seven archaeological samples (4
at 5000 BC, 5 at 4000 BC, 10 at 3000
BC, 3 at 2000 BC, 5 at 1000 BC), and
10 craniofacial measurements, have been
considered. While cerebral skull is fairly
stable, facial skull displays several regular
modifications, and specially a reduction
of facial and nasal heights, a broadening
of the nose, and an increase of
prognathism, while bizygomatic breadth
is unchanged. These features illustrate a
trend towards a growing resemblance
with populations of Sub-Saharan Africa
living in wet environments. However,
paleoclimatological studies show that
Nubia experienced an increasing
aridification during that period. It is then
unlikely that such a morphological
change could be related to any local
adaptive evolution to environment.
Random drift is also unlikely, because the
anatomical trend is relatively uniform
during these millennia. It then seems
more plausible that these changes
correspond to the increasing presence of
Southern populations migrating
northward."
-- Froment, A. (2002) Morphological
micro-evolution of Nubian Populations
from, A-Group to Christian Epochs:
gene flow, not local adaptation. Am J
Phys Anthropol [Suppl] 34:72.

Afrocentric critic Froment also notes:
"Black populations of the Horn of Africa
(Tigré and Somalia) fit well into
Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain,
Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte
ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie,
Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)

Afrocentric critic C. Loring Brace's
2005 study groups ancient Egyptian
populations like the Naqada closer to
Nubians and Somalis than European,
Mediterranean or Middle Eastern
populations. Brace's study shows that the
closest European linking with Africans in
Egypt or Nubia are Middle Stone Age
Portugese and Neolithics, OLDER
populations more closely resembling
AFRICANS than modern Europeans.
Early Neolithic populations, like the
Nautifians, in what is now Israel, show
sub-Saharan 'negroid' affinities. (Brace,
et al. The questionable contribution of
the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to
European craniofacial form, Proc Natl
Acad Sci U S A. 2006 January 3; 103(1):
p. 242-247.)




"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo,
Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with
each other and a bit less closely with the
Nubian sample, both the recent and the
Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely
with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of
Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the
Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of
Israel. When those samples are separated
and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1,
there clearly is a tie between them that is
diluted the farther one gets from
sub-Saharan Africa" (Brace, 2005)

"The surprise is that the Neolithic
peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age
successors are not closely related to the
modern inhabitants, although the
prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat
more apparent in southern Europe. It is a
further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic
Natufian of Israel from whom the
Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has
a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa...
Interestingly enough, however, the small
Natufian sample falls between the
Niger-Congo group and the other
samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot
produced by the first two canonical
variates, but the same thing happens
when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not
shown here) are used. This placement
suggests that there may have been a
Sub-Saharan African element in the
make-up of the Natufians (the putative
ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), ..
When canonical variates are plotted,
neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon
as was once suggested. The data treated
here support the idea that the Neolithic
moved out of the Near East into the
circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe
by a process of demic diffusion but that
subsequently the in situ residents of those
areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene
inhabitants, absorbed both the
agricultural life way and the people who
had brought it." (Brace, 2005)


Both skeletal/cranial and DNA studies
by other authors confirm that some
Neolithics did not derive from the Near
East. They most likely resembled African
populations. Hence comparisons using
older European Neolithics versus
Africans are comparisons with older
prehistoric Europeans who looked more
like Africans, than modern 'white'
Europeans, as shown by Brace (2005),
and Hanihara (1996) also, who states
"Early West Asians looked like
Africans."

"The absence of mtDNA haplogroup J in
the ancient Portuguese Neolithic sample
suggests that this population was not
derived directly from Near Eastern
farmers. The Mesolithic and Neolithic
groups show genetic discontinuity
implying colonisation at the Neolithic
transition in Portugal." (CHANDLER,
H.; SYKES, B.; ZILHÃO, J. (2005) -
Using ancient DNA to examine genetic
continuity at the Mesolithic-Neolithic
transition in Portugal, in ARIAS, P.;
ONTAÑÓN, R.; GARCÍA-MONCÓ, C.
(eds.) - «Actas del III Congreso del
Neolítico en la Península Ibérica»,
Santander, Monografías del Instituto
Internacional de Investigaciones
Prehistóricas de Cantabria 1, p.
781-786.)

"Early Europeans still resembled modern
tropical peoples - some resemble modern
Australian and Africans, more than
modern Europeans.. Nor does the picture
get any clearer when we move on to the
Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of
modern Europeans. Some were more like
present-day Australians or Africans,
judged by objective anatomical
observations." (Christopher Stringer,
Robin McKie (1998). African Exodus.
Macmillan, p. 162)


Early Europeans, as recently as
6,000-9000 years ago, looked somewhat
like Africans in terms of retained
'tropical' characteristics. Cold adaptation
was to bring about several physical
changes over time from the initial Out of
Africa migrations to Europe. Retained
traces of 'tropical' characteristics,
indicate a "large African role in the
origins of anatomically modern
Europeans." (Holliday and Churchill
2003).

"Body proportions covary with climate,
apparently as the result of climatic
selection. Ontogenetic research and
migrant studies have demonstrated that
body proportions are largely genetically
controlled and are under low selective
rates; thus studies of body form can
provide evidence for evolutionarily
short-term dispersals and/or gene flow.
Replacement predicts that the earliest
modern Europeans will possess
"tropical" body proportions (assuming
Africa is the center of origin), while
Regional Continuity permits only minor
shifts in body shape, due to climatic
change and/or improved cultural
buffering. .. results refute the hypothesis
of local continuity in Europe, and are
consistent with an interpretation of
elevated gene flow (and population
dispersal?) from Africa, followed by
subsequent climatic adaptation to colder
conditions." (Holliday, Trenton (1997)
Body proportions in Late Pleistocene
Europe and modern human origins.
Journal of Human Evolution, Volume 32,
Issue 5, 1997, Pages 423-447)


".. while the Late Upper Paleolithic and
Mesolithic humans have significantly
higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial
and crural indices than do recent
Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e.,
cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat
paradoxical retention of "tropical"
indices in the context of more
"cold-adapted" limb length is best
explained as evidence for Replacement in
the European Late Pleistocene, followed
by gradual cold adaptation in glacial
Europe." (Holliday, Trenton (1999)
Brachial and crural indices of European
Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic
humans. Journal of Human Evolution.
Volume 36, Issue 5, May 1999, Pages
549-566)


"Stature, body mass, and body
proportions are evaluated for the
Cheddar Man (Gough's Cave 1) skeleton.
Like many of his Mesolithic
contemporaries, Gough's Cave 1 evinces
relatively short estimated stature (ca.
166.2 cm [5' 5']) and low body mass (ca.
66 kg [146 lbs]). In body shape, he is
similar to recent Europeans for most
proportional indices. He differs,
however, from most recent Europeans in
his high crural index and tibial
length/trunk height indices. Thus, while
Gough's Cave 1 is characterized by a
total morphological pattern considered
'cold-adapted', these latter two traits may
be interpreted as evidence of a large
African role in the origins of anatomically
modern Europeans." (TRENTON W.
HOLLIDAY a1 and STEVEN E.
CHURCHILL. (2003). Gough's Cave 1
(Somerset, England): an assessment of
body size and shape, Bulletin of the
Natural History Museum: Geology,
58:37-44 Cambridge University Press)


More data showing early Europeans
were tropically adapted types like
Africans
"Body proportions are under strong
climatic selection and evince remarkable
stability within regional lineages. As
such, they offer a viable and robust
alternative to cranio-facial data in
assessing hypothesised continuity and
replacement with the transition to
agro-pastoralism in central Europe.
Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural
indices in a large sample (n=75) of
Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late
Neolithic and Early Bronze Age
specimens from the middle
Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were
compared with Eurasian and African
terminal Pleistocene, European
Mesolithic and geographically disparate
recent human specimens. Mesolithic
Europeans display considerable variation
in humero-clavicular and brachial indices
yet none approach the extreme
"hyper-polar" morphology of LBK
humans from the MESV. In contrast,
Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age
peoples display elongated brachial and
crural indices reminiscent of terminal
Pleistocene and "tropically adapted"
recent humans. These marked
morphological changes likely reflect
exogenous immigration during the
terminal Fourth millennium cal BC.
Population expansion and diffusion is a
function of increased mobility and
settlement dispersal concomitant with
significant technological and subsistence
changes in later Neolithic societies during
the late fourth millennium cal BCE."
-- Gallagher et al. "Population continuity,
demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in
central-southern Germany: the evidence
from body proportions." Homo.
2009;60(2):95-126. Epub 2009 Mar 4.




Early West Asians looked like
Africans. Thus any ancient returnees or
"backflow" from West Asia back to
Africa is by people who look like
Africans to begin with. Brace 2005
shows this as to Europeans. Hanihara
1996, demonstrates this below as to
West Asians (i.e. 'Middle easterners').
Also see above.

quote:
"Distance analysis and factor analysis,
based on Q-mode correlation
coefficients, were applied to 23
craniofacial measurements in 1,802
recent and prehistoric crania from major
geographical areas of the Old World. The
major findings are as follows: 1)
Australians show closer similarities to
African populations than to Melanesians.
2) Recent Europeans align with East
Asians, and early West Asians resemble
Africans. 3) The Asian population
complex with regional difference
between northern and southern members
is manifest. 4) Clinal variations of
craniofacial features can be detected in
the Afro-European region on the one
hand, and Australasian and East Asian
region on the other hand. 5) The
craniofacial variations of major
geographical groups are not necessarily
consistent with their geographical
distribution pattern. This may be a sign
that the evolutionary divergence in
craniofacial shape among recent
populations of different geographical
areas is of a highly limited degree.
Taking all of these into account, a single
origin for anatomically modern humans is
the most parsimonious interpretation of
the craniofacial variations presented in
this study."
(Hanihara T. Comparison of craniofacial
features of major human groups. Am J
Phys Anthropol. 1996
Mar;99(3):389-412.)



Older studies often show
misclassification or exclusion of Nile
Valley remains deemed 'negroid'.
Although clearly of the "African" type,
such remains were frequently relabeled
"Mediterranean."

"Analyses of Egyptian crania are
numerous. Vercoutter (1978) notes that
ancient Egyptian crania have frequently
all been lumped (implicitly or explicitly)
as Mediterranean, although Negroid
remains are recorded in substantial
numbers by many workers... "Nutter
(1958), using the Penrose statistic,
demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari
crania, both regarded as Negroid, were
almost identical and that these were most
similar to the Negroid Nubian series from
Kerma studied by Collett (1933).
[Collett, not accepting variability,
excluded "clear negro" crania found in
the Kerma series from her analysis, as did
Morant (1925), implying that they were
foreign..." (S. Keita (1990) Studies of
Ancient Crania From Northern Africa.
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY
83:35-48)


Different features among Africans,
particularly EAST AFRICANS, like
narrow noses are not due to different
"race" mixes but are part of the built-in
physical diversity and variation of
African peoples. Narrow noses appear in
the oldest African populations for
example, in Kenya's Gamble Cave
complex. East Africans like Somalians or
Kenyans do not need any outside race
"mix" or migration to make them look
the way they do.

QUOTE(s):
".. all their features can be found in
several living populations of East Africa,
like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi,
who are very dark skinned and differ
greatly from Europeans in a number of
body proportions.. There is every reason
to believe that they are ancestral to the
living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither
of these populations, fossil and modern,
should be considered to be closely
related to the populations of Europe and
western Asia.. In skin colour, the Tutsi
are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse
direction to that leading to the
caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a
similar case: on an average the lips of the
Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu."
[Jean Hiernaux, The People of Africa
(1975), pgs 42-43, 62-63)

"In sub-Saharan Africa, many
anthropological characters show a wide
range of population means or
frequencies. In some of them, the whole
world range is covered in the
sub-continent. Here live the shortest and
the tallest human populations, the one
with the highest and the one with the
lowest nose, the one with the thickest
and the one with the thinnest lips in the
world. In this area, the range of the
average nose widths covers 92 per cent
of the world range: only a narrow range
of extremely low means are absent from
the African record. Means for head
diameters cover about 80 per cent of the
world range; 60 per cent is the
corresponding value for a variable once
cherished by physical anthropologists,
the cephalic index, or ratio of the head
width to head length expressed as a
percentage....."
- Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa"
1975 p.53, 54

"Prehistoric human crania from
Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia
Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities
in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are
reassessed using measurements and a
multivariate statistical approach.
Materials available for comparison
include series of Bushman and Hottentot
crania. South and East African Negroes,
and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial
measurements taken on these series are
utilized to construct three multiple
discriminant frameworks, each of which
can assign modern individuals to a
correct group with considerable
accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are
classified with the help of these
discriminants, results indicate that several
of the skulls are best grouped with
modern Negroes. This is especially clear
in the case of individuals from
Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and
Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests
post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift
and surrounding territory by
"Mediterranean" Caucasoids, as has been
claimed. Recent linguistic and
archaeological findings are also
reviewed, and these seem to support
application of the term Nilotic Negro to
the early Rift populations." (Rightmire
GP. New studies of post-Pleistocene
human skeletal remains from the Rift
Valley, Kenya. Am J Phys Anthropol.
1975 May;42(3):351-69. )

"....inhabitants of East Africa right on the
equator have appreciably longer,
narrower, and higher noses than people
in the Congo at the same latitude. A
former generation of anthropologists
used to explain this paradox by invoking
an invasion by an itinerant "white"
population from the Mediterranean area,
although this solution raised more
problems than it solved since the East
Africans in question include some of the
blackest people in the world with
characteristically wooly hair and a body
build unique among the world's
populations for its extreme linearity and
height.... The relatively long noses of
East Africa become explicable then when
one realizes that much of the area is
extremely dry for parts of the year." (C.
Loring Brace, "Nonracial Approach
Towards Human Diversity," cited in The
Concept of Race, Edited by Ashley
Montagu, The Free Press, 1980, pp.
135-136, 138)

"The .... excavations at Gogoshiis Qabe
(Somalia) uncovered eleven virtually
complete and articulated primary
burials...Closest morphological affinities
are with early Holocene skeletons from
Lake Turkana, Kenya...and Lake Besaka,
Ethiopia.."
(S. Brandt, (1986) The Upper
Pleistocene and early Holocene
prehistory of the Horn of Africa. Journal
African Archaeological Review. Volume
4, Number 1, Pages 41-82 )

"The role of tall, linearly built
populations in eastern Africa's prehistory
has always been debated. Traditionally,
they are viewed as late migrants into the
area. But as there is better
palaeoanthropological and linguistic
documentation for the earlier presence of
these populations than for any other
group in eastern Africa, it is far more
likely that they are indigenous eastern
Africans. ... prehistoric linear populations
show resemblances to both Upper
Pleistocene eastern African fossils and
present-day, non-Bantu-speaking groups
in eastern Africa, with minor differences
stemming from changes in overall
robusticity of the dentition and skeleton.
This suggests a longstanding tradition of
linear populations in eastern Africa,
contributing to the indigenous
development of cultural and biological
diversity from the Pleistocene up to the
present."
(L . A . SCHEPARTZ, "Who were the
later Pleistocene eastern Africans?" The
African Archaeological Review, 6
(1988), pp. 57- 72)




Africa is the most genetically diverse
region in the world with the original man
being from East Africa according to
conservative scholars:

"Africa contains tremendous cultural,
linguistic and genetic diversity, and has
more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups
and languages.. Studies using
mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear
DNA markers consistently indicate that
Africa is the most genetically diverse
region of the world." (Tishkoff SA,
Williams SM., Genetic analysis of
African populations: human evolution
and complex disease. Nature Reviews
Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)

" In other words, all non-Africans carry
M168. Of course, Africans carrying the
M168 mutation today are the
descendants of the African subpopulation
from which the migrants originated....
Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the
ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East
African Man." (Linda Stone, Paul F.
Lurquin, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes,
Culture, and Human Evolution: A
Synthesis, Wiley-Blackwell: 2006, pg
108)


The Natufians, early inhabitants of the
Sinai - Israel- Palestine area, and reputed
pioneers of several Neolithic agricultural
and technological developments, appear
to have had "Negroid" affinities.
Important Natufian sites include Mt.
Carmel, Jericho and several others.


"Against this background of disease,
movement and pedomorphic reduction of
body size one can identify Negroid
(Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose
and prognathism appearing in Natufian
latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in
Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers,
probably from Nubia via the unknown
predecesors of the Badarians and
Tasians....". (Biological Relations of
Egyptians and Eastern Mediterranean
Populations during pre-Dynastic and
Dynastic Times. J. Lawrence Angel.
Journal of Human Evolutiom. 1972:1, 1,
Pg 307)

"The Mushabians moved into Sinai from
the Nile Delta, bringing North African
lithic chipping tecniques."
("Pleistocene connections between Africa
and Southwest Asia: an archaeological
perspective. O. Bar-Yosef. African
Archaeological Review. 5 (1987) Pg 29)

"It is a further surprise that the
Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from
whom the Neolithic realm was assumed
to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan
Africa... Interestingly enough, however,
the small Natufian sample falls between
the Niger-Congo group and the other
samples used... This placement suggests
that there may have been a Sub-Saharan
African element in the make-up of the
Natufians (the putative ancestors of the
subsequent Neolithic.." (C.L Brace, et.
al. 2005. The Questionable contribution
of the Neolithic...)


Early inhabitants of the general
Natufian Israel area show limb
proportions suited to tropical peoples-
similar to sub-Saharan's homeland

"However, the real revelation came when
Erik [Trinkhaus] inserted his data on the
Cro-Magnons of Europe and the
Skhul-Qafzeh skeletons from Israel into
the equations. In this case, he got a
figure of 85 percent for the
shinbone-thighbone ratio. Not only were
they unlike the Neanderthals, but these
people actually fell at the other extreme
in their readings on the limb
thermometer. The predicted average
temperature of origin for folk with an
85% shin-thigh fraction, indicating much
longer extremities relative to trunk length
- was about 20 degrees higher than the
Neanderthals', suggesting a subtropical-
if not tropical- homeland!" (African
Exodus By Christopher Stringer, Robin
McKie, McMillan: pg 79-83)

Recent study shows ancient Egyptians
physically more like tropically adapted
Black Americans than White Americans,
confirming older studies that show
today's Egyptians in general are closer to
US blacks than Northern Europeans, and
Southern Europeans as well.


QUOTE(s):
"We also compare Egyptian body
proportions to those of modern
American Blacks and Whites... Long
bone stature regression equations were
then derived for each sex. Our results
confirm that, although ancient Egyptians
are closer in body proportion to modern
American Blacks than they are to
American Whites, proportions in Blacks
and Egyptians are not identical...
Intralimb indices are not significantly
different between Egyptians and
American Blacks. ..brachial indices are
definitely more 'African'... There is no
evidence for significant variation in
proportions among temporal or social
groupings; thus, the new formulae may
be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian
remains." ("Stature estimation in ancient
Egyptians: A new technique based on
anatomical reconstruction of stature."
Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff,
Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan,
Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am
J Phys Anthropol. 2008,
Jun;136(2):147-55

The 1993 'Clines and Clusters' study
by C.L. Brace, et. al. has been used to
minmize or downplay the realtionship
between Egypt and its African neighbors.
For example it:

--Created an "African" or "sub-Saharan"
group, but excluded the Maghreb
(including parts of the Sahara and Sahel),
the Sudan and the Horn area (Ethiopia
and Somalia) even though these latter
two are BELOW the Sahara, and thus
"sub-Saharan".

--Excluded the Badari, and Naqada I and
II, key Egyptian groups, thus obscuring
the Sudanic/Saharan character of
numerous early samples, noted in several
earlier analyses.
Ignored the formative range of the
Saharans on Egypt, from the megaliths
and cattle cults of the Nabta Playa to
early mummification practices was
ignored.

--Excluded the Nubian population of the
Badari and early Naqada period,
including the rich remains of the well
documented Qustul culture, near the
present Sudanese-Egyptian border, again
obscuring the close relationship between
the two peoples.

--Created a vague "Bronze Age"
grouping of Nubians, and a "modern"
group of medieval samples, an era long
after the dynasties and when Nubia had
experienced more gene flow of that and
the later Arab incursions, beginning in
the 700s. Sampling thus ignored the early
Badari/Naqada Nubians, jumped the 25th
Dynasty era, and shifted to the medieval
era in the age range of the Arab
conquests.
Used Somalian samples that were
modern, and thus within the range of
recent gene flow (such as the Arab era),
particularly on the coast.

--The result was a "comparison" finding
that the ancient Egyptians had no
relationship "at all" to other
"sub-Saharan" peoples and were
relatively distant from the Nubians and
Somalians. peoples. This finding has been
undermined by the subsequent research
of several scholars, including limb
proportion studies.

QUOTE(s):


"However, Brace et al. (1993) find that a
series of upper Egyptian/Nubian
epipalaeolithic crania affiliate by cluster
analysis with groups they designate
"sub-Saharan African" or just simply
"African" (from which they incorrectly
exclude the Maghreb, Sudan, and the
Horn of Africa), whereas post-Badarian
southern predynastic and a late dynastic
northern series (called "E" or Gizeh)
cluster together, and secondarily with
Europeans. In the primary cluster with
the Egyptian groups are also remains
representing populations from the ancient
Sudan and recent Somalia. Brace et al.
(1993) seemingly interpret these results
as indicating a population relationship
from Scandinavia to the Horn of Africa,
although the mechanism for this is not
clearly stated; they also state that the
Egyptians had no relationship with
sub-Saharan Africans, a group that they
nearly treat (incorrectly) as monolithic,
although sometimes seemingly including
Somalia, which directly undermines
aspects of their claims. Sub-Saharan
Africa does not define/delimit authentic
Africanity." (S.O.Y. Keita. "Early Nile
Valley Farmers from El-Badari:
Aboriginals or "European"
Agro-Nostratic Immigrants?
Craniometric Affinities Considered With
Other Data". Journal of Black Studies,
Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)


Brace carefully excluded the Badari- a
key native pre-dynastic group that led
into the dynasties, and suggested possible
European immigration to ancient Egypt.
Keita put this to the test and found that
the excluded group matched up more
closely with Africans than Europeans.

"An examination of the distance
hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to
be more similar to the Teita in both
analyses and always more similar to all of
the African series than to the Norse and
Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and
Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is
found with the Zalavar and Dogon series
in the 11-variable analysis and with these
and the Bushman in the one using 15
variables. The Badarian series clusters
with the tropical African groups no
matter which algorithm is employed (see
Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did
the Badarian sample affiliate with the
European series."(S.O.Y. Keita. Early
Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari:
Aboriginals or "European"
Agro-Nostratic Immigrants?
Craniometric Affinities Considered With
Other Data. Journal of Black Studies,
Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)

More on the biased and skewed 'true
negro' model

"Another example of the use of a socially
constructed typological paradigm is in
studies of the Nile Valley populations in
which the concept of a biological African
is restricted to those with a particular
craniometric pattern (called in the past
the 'True Negro' though no 'True White'
was ever defined). Early Nubians,
Egyptians, and even Somalians are
viewed essentially as non-Africans, when
in fact numerous lines of evidence and an
evolutionary model make them a part of
African biocultural/biogeographical
history. The diversity of 'authentic'
Africans is a reality. This diversity
prevents biogeographical/biohistorical
Africans from clustering into a single
unit, no matter the kind of data." (The
Persistence of Racial Thinking and the
Myth of Racial Divergence, S. O. Y.
Keita, Rick A. Kittles, American
Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 99,
No. 3 (Sep., 1997), pp. 534-544)

"..presents all tropical Africans with
narrower noses and faces as being related
to or descended from external, ultimately
non-African peoples. However,
narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations
have long been resident in
Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin
need not be sought elsewhere. These
traits are also indigenous. The variability
in tropical Africa is expectedly naturally
high. Given their longstanding presence,
narrow noses and faces cannot be
deemed `non-African."(S.O.Y. Keita,
"Studies and Comments on Ancient
Egyptian Biological Relationships,"
History in Africa 20 (1993), page 134 )

"Another example of the use of a socially
constructed typological paradigm is in
studies of the Nile Valley populations in
which the concept of a biological African
is restricted to those with a particular
craniometric pattern (called in the past
the 'True African' though no 'True White'
was ever defined). Early Nubians,
Egyptians, and even Somalians are
viewed essentially as non-Africans, when
in fact numerous lines of evidence and an
evolutionary model make them a part of
African biocultural/biogeographical
history. The diversity of 'authentic'
Africans is a reality. This diversity
prevents biogeographical/biohistorical
Africans from clustering into a single
unit, no matter the kind of data."
---Keita and Kittles. "The Persistence of
Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial
Divergence." American Anthropologist
99, no. 3 (September 1997): 534-544

Hair and the 'true negro'
"Strouhal (1971) microscopically
examined some hair which had been
preserved on a Badrarian skull. The
analysis was interpreted as suggesting a
stereotypical tropical African-European
hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is
grossly no different from that of Fulani,
some Kanuri, or Somali and does not
require a gene flow explanation any more
than curly hair in Greece necessarily
does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the
only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S.
O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and
Comments on Ancient Egyptian
Biological Relationships," History in
Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)


Sampling bias and the true negro. In
some Nile Valley research sampling bias
persists such as drawing samples from
the far north of Egypt, boscuring the
region's genetic complexity. The
stereotypical "true negro" type is still
used to artifically separate related
peoples and obscure a fuller, more
accurate picture of African genetic
diversity. Sampling bias appears both in
DNA studies (noted by Keita) and in
cranial studies (noted by Egyptologist
Barry Kemp).

QUOTE(s):


Keita on DNA studies drawing samples
from the far north, an area with more
foreign settlement and gene flow

"However, in some of the studies, only
individuals from northern Egypt are
sampled, and this could theoretically give
a false impression of Egyptian variability
(contrast Lucotte and Mercier 2003a
with Manni et al. 2002), because this
region has received more foreign settlers
(and is nearer the Near East). Possible
sample bias should be integrated into the
discussion of results." (S.O.Y. Keita,
A.J. Boyce, "Interpreting Geographical
Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation1,"
History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 )

Egyptologist Barry Kemp on the
worldwide CRANID database that used
northern samples near the Mediterranean
as "representative" of the ancient
Egyptians, and classifying them in a
"European" direction, while excluding
key historic sites further south..

"If, on the other hand, CRANID had
used one of the Elephantine populations
of the same period, the geographic
association would be much more with the
African groups to the south. It is
dangerous to take one set of skeletons
and use them to characterize the
population of the whole of Egypt."
(Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of
a Civilisation, Routledge: 2005, p. 55)




Modern anthropology shows that the
ancient Egyptians are well within the
range of tropical Africa, contradicting
older research in the 1990s that sought to
deny any relationship. The anthropologist
below, Nancy Lovell was recommended
by Mary lefkowitz in Black Athena
Revisted.


"There is now a sufficient body of
evidence from modern studies of skeletal
remains to indicate that the ancient
Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians,
exhibited physical characteristics that are
within the range of variation for ancient
and modern indigenous peoples of the
Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general,
the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and
Nubia had the greatest biological affinity
to people of the Sahara and more
southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, "
Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in
Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of
Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and
Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and
New York: Routledge, 1999) pp
328-332)


One of the oldest remains from Upper
Egypt, shows strong sub-Saharan
affinities, and early northern Egypt also
shows sub-Saharan affinities through
cultural traits- the 'Nubian complex' of
technology and production.

"The morphometric affinities of the
33,000 year old skeleton from Nazlet
Khater, Upper Egypt are examined using
multivariate statistical procedures.. The
results indicate a strong association
between some of the sub-Saharan Middle
Stone Age (MSA) specimens, and the
Nazlet Khater mandible. Furthermore,
the results suggest that variability
between African populations during the
Neolithic and Protohistoric periods was
more pronounced than the range of
variability observed among recent
African and Levantine populations."
(PINHASI Ron, SEMAL Patrick (2000).
The position of the Nazlet Khater
specimen among prehistoric and modern
African and Levantine populations.
Journal of human evolution. 2000, vol.
39, no3, pp. 269-288 )

"..Middle Paleolithic and the transition to
the Upper Paleolithic in the Lower Nile
Valley are described... the Middle
Paleolithic or, more appropriately,
Middle Stone Age of this region starts
with the arrival of new populations from
sub-Saharan Africa, as evidenced by the
nature of the Early to Middle Stone Age
transition in stratified sites. Throughout
the late Middle Pleistocene technological
change occurs leading to the
establishment of the Nubian Complex by
the onset of the Upper Pleistocene."
(Van Peer, Philip. Did middle stone age
moderns of sub-Saharan African descent
trigger an upper paleolithic revolution in
the lower nile valley? Anthropologie. vol.
42, no3, pp. 215-225)


Dental studies provide evidence that
the ancient Egyptian population
maintained a high degree of continuity
into the early, mid and late Dynastic
periods. A key ancient group, the Badari,
found to link to tropical African metrics,
was excluded by such studies as Brace
(1993) but dental research shows they
link well with later pre and Dynastic
populations. J. Irish's 2006 dental study
examined the ancient Badarian people
excluded by Brace and found that they
were a "good representative of what the
common ancestor to all later predynastic
and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be
like." His dental results show that:

QUOTE:

"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah
[the Western Desert- Saharan region] is
closest to predynastic and early dynastic
samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis,
and Badari.."

the Badarians were a "good
representative of what the common
ancestor to all later predynastic and
dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"

"A comparison of Badari to the Naqada
and Hierakonpolis samples .. contradicts
the idea of a foreign origin for the
Naqada (Petrie, 1939; Baumgartel,
1970)"

Evidence in favor of continuity is also
demonstrated by comparison of
individual samples. "Naqada and
especially Hierakonpolis share close
affinities with First-Second Dynasty
Abydos.. These findings do not support
the concept of a foreign dynastic ''race''"

"Thus, despite increasing foreign
influence after the Second Intermediate
Period, not only did Egyptian culture
remain intact (Lloyd, 2000a), but the
people themselves, as represented by the
dental samples, appear biologically
constant as well."

(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the
Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities
Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic
Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006
Apr;129(4):529-43.)


Africans have the highest dental
diversity
"Previous research by the first author
revealed that, relative to other modern
peoples, sub-Saharan Africans exhibit the
highest frequencies of ancestral (or
plesiomorphic) dental traits... The fact
that sub-Saharan Africans express these
apparently plesiomorphic characters,
along with additional information on
their affinity to other modern
populations, evident intra-population
heterogeneity, and a world-wide dental
cline emanating from the sub-continent,
provides further evidence that is
consistent with an African origin model."
(Irish JD, Guatelli-Steinberg D.(2003)
Ancient teeth and modern human origins:
an expanded comparison of African
Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental
samples. Hum Evol. 2003
Aug;45(2):113-44. )





Ancient Egyptian civilization was
indigenous with continuity among its
peoples, not an influx of Middle
Easterners, Europeans or other outsiders
like Arabs until relatively late in
history

QUOTE(s):
"Some have argued that various early
Egyptians like the Badarians probably
migrated northward from Nubia, while
others see a wide-ranging movement of
peoples across the breadth of the Sahara
before the onset of desiccation. Whatever
may be the origins of any particular
people or civilization, however, it seems
reasonably certain that the predynastic
communities of the Nile valley were
essentially indigenous in culture, drawing
little inspiration from sources outside the
continent during the several centuries
directly preceding the onset of historical
times..." (Robert July, Pre-Colonial
Africa, 1975, p. 60-61)


"overall population continuity over the
Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high
levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby
suggesting that state formation occurred
as a mainly indigenous process."
(Zakrzewski, S.R. (2007). "Population
continuity or population change:
Formation of the ancient Egyptian state".
American Journal of Physical
Anthropology 132 (4): 501-509)

"the peoples of the steppes and
grasslands to the immediate south of
Egypt domesticated cattle, as early as
9000 to 8000 B.C. They included
peoples from the Afroasiastic linguistic
group and the second major African
language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf,
Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al.
1982). Thus the earliest domestic cattle
may have come to Egypt from these
southern neighbors, circa 6000 B.C., and
not from the Middle East.[148] Pottery,
another significant advance in material
cultural may also have followed this
pattern, initiatied "as early as 9000 B.C.
by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who
lived to the south of Egypt. Soon
thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites,
almost 2,000 years before the first
pottery was made in the Middle East."
(Christopher Ehret, "Ancient Egyptian as
an African Language, Egypt as an
African Culture," in Egypt in Africa,
Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana
University Press, 1996, pp. 25-27)


X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies
show some to be linked physically to
Nubian types, and some documented
royal officials are clearly "Negroid' like
Pepi-seneb, an eminent scribe c. 2745
BC. Some royal New Kingdom mummies
also show melanin frequencies consistent
with Negroid origin.


"In terms of head shape, the XVIV and
XX dynasties look more like the early
Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with
low vaults and sloping, curved
foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty
skulls are shaped more like modern
Nubians with globular skulls and high
vaults."
(An X-ray atlas of the royal mummies.
Edited by J.E. Harris and E.F. Wente.
(The University of Chicago Press,
Chicago, 1980.) Review: Michael R.
Zimmerman, American Journal of
Physical Anthropology, Volume 56,
Issue 2 , (1981) Pages 207 - 208)

"While the Upper Nile Egyptians show
phenotypic features that occur in higher
frequencies in the Sudan and southward
into East Africa (namely, facial
prognathism, chamaerrhiny, and
paedomorphic cranial architecture with
specific modifications of the nasal
aperature), these so-called Negroid
features are not universal in the region of
Thebes, Karnak, and Luxor."
(Kennedy, Kenneth A.R., T. Plummer, J.
Chinment, "Identification of the Eminent
Dead: Pepi, A Scribe of Egypt," In
Katherine J. Reichs (ed.), Forensic
Osteology, 1986.)


German Institute for Archaeology
-excavation of the tombs of the nobles in
Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of
the noble specimens:
"The basal epithelial cells were packed
with melanin as expected for specimens
of Negroid origin."
(Determination of optimal rehydration,
fixation and staining methods for
histological and immunohistochemical
analysis of mummified soft tissues",
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005,
80(1): 7_/13)
Nubians are no "prequisite" for dark skin
in ancient Egypt.

Nubians were ethnically the closest
people to the Egyptians. Conflict
between the two were typical clashes
between kingdoms without the simplistic
"racial" models drawn by some 20th
century writers.

Quote 1:
"The ancient Egyptians referred to a
region, located south of the third cataract
the Nile River, in which Nubians dwelt as
Kush.. Within such context, this phrase is
not a racial slur. Throughout the history
of ancient Egypt there were numerous,
well documented instances that celebrate
Nubian-Egyptian marriages. A study of
these documents, particularly those dated
to both the Egyptian New Kingdom
(after 1550 B.C.E.) and to Dynasty XXV
and early Dynasty XXVI (about 720-640
BCE), reveals that neither spouse nor
any of the children of such unions
suffered discrimination at the hands of
the ancient Egyptians. Indeed such
marriages were never an obstacle to
social, economic, or political status,
provided the individuals concerned
conformed to generally accepted
Egyptian social standards. Furthermore,
at times, certain Nubian practices, such
as tattooing for women, and the unisex
fashion of wearing earrings, were
wholeheartedly embraced by the ancient
Egyptians." (Bianchi, 2004: p. 4)


'It is an extremely difficult task to
attempt to describe the Nubians during
the course of Egypt's New Kingdom,
because their presence appears to have
virtually evaporated from the
archaeological record.. The result has
been described as a wholesale Nubian
assimilation into Egyptian society. This
assimilation was so complete that it
masked all Nubian ethnic identities
insofar as archaeological remains are
concerned beneath the impenetrable
veneer of Egypt's material; culture.. In
the Kushite Period, when Nubians ruled
as Pharaohs in their own right, the
material culture of Dynasty XXV (about
750-655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian
in character.. Nubia's entire landscape up
to the region of the Third Cataract was
dotted with temples indistinguishable in
style and decoration from contemporary
temples erected in Egypt. The same
observation obtains for the smaller
number of typically Egyptian tombs in
which these elite Nubian princes were
interred. (Bianchi, 2004, p. 99-100)

- Robert Bianchi ( 2004). Daily Life of
the Nubians. Greenwood Publishing
Group


One of Egypt's greatest dynasties, the
12th, originated from dark-skinned
Nubian stock, according to conservative
Egyptologist F. Yurco (1989). The 12th
Dynasty ruled approximately 1000 years
BEFORE the well known "black" 25th
Dynasty.
Quote 2:

"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.)
originated from the Aswan region.4 As
expected, strong Nubian features and
dark coloring are seen in their sculpture
and relief work. This dynasty ranks as
among the greatest, whose fame far
outlived its actual tenure on the throne.
Especially interesting, it was a member of
this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy
(riverine Nubian of the principality of
Kush), except such as came for trade or
diplomatic reasons, should pass by the
Egyptian fortress at the southern end of
the Second Nile Cataract. Why would
this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban
other Nubians from coming into
Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian
rulers of Nubian ancestry had become
Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they
exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and
adopted typical Egyptian policies."

- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient
Egyptians black or white?', Biblical
Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5,
1989)


"Among the foreigners, the Nubians were
closest ethnically to the Egyptians. In the
late predynastic period (c. 3700-3150
B.C.E.), the Nubians shared the same
culture as the Egyptians and even
evolved the same pharaonic political
structure."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient
Egyptians black or white?', Biblical
Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5,
1989)


Ancient Egyptian religion closer to the
religion of African regions than to
Mesopotamia, Europe or the Middle
East

QUOTE(s):
Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed.
Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian
Religion" , pg 506-508
"A large number of gods go back to
prehistoric times. The images of a cow
and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon
(Horus), and the human-shaped figures
of the fertility god (Min) can be traced
back to that period. Some rites, such as
the "running of the Apil-bull," the
"hoeing of the ground," and other
fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the
hippopotamus hunt) presumably date
from early times.. Connections with the
religions in southwest Asia cannot be
traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be
regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis,
or whether Hathor is related to the
"Great Mother." There are closer
relations with northeast African religions.
The numerous animal cults (especially
bovine cults and panther gods) and
details of ritual dresses (animal tails,
masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of
African origin. The kinship in particular
shows some African elements, such as
the king as the head ritualist (i.e.,
medicine man), the limitations and
renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide),
and the position of the king's mother (a
matriarchal element). Some of them can
be found among the Ethiopians in Napata
and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic
tribes (Shilluk)."
(Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed.
Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian
Religion" , pg 506-508)


Egyptian dynastic civilization based
from the 'darker' south (Upper Egypt)
not the north (Lower Egypt)

QUOTE(s):
"While not attempting to underestimate
the contribution that Deltaic political and
religious institutions made to those of a
united Egypt, many Egyptologists now
discount the idea that a united prehistoric
kingdom of Lower Egypt ever existed."


"While communities such as Ma'adi
appear to have played an important role
in entrepots through which goods and
ideas form south-west Asia filtered into
the Nile Valley in later prehistoric times,
the main cultural and political tradition
that gave rise to the cultural pattern of
Early Dynastic Egypt is to be found not
in the north but in the south.":
The Cambridge History of Africa:
Volume 1, From the Earliest Times to c.
500 BC, (Cambridge University Press:
1982), Edited by J. Desmond Clark pp.
500-509

"..the early cultures of Merimde, the
Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are
essentially African and early African
social customs and religious beliefs were
the root and foundation of the ancient
Egyptian way of life." (Source: Shaw,
Thurston (1976) Changes in African
Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in
African Studies since 1945. p. 156-68.
London.)




Egyptian state founded from the
south, and indigenous in character.
Egyptians dominated Palestine in some
eras.

"What is truly unique about this state is
the integration of rule over an extensive
geographic region, in contrast to other
contemporaneous Near Easter polities in
Nubia, Mesopotamia, Palestine and the
Levant. Present evidence suggests that
the state which emerged by the First
Dynasty had its roots in the Nagada
culture of Upper Egypt, where grave
types, pottery and artifacts demonstrate
an evolution of form from the
Predynastic to the First Dynasty, This
cannot be demonstrated for the material
culture of Lower Egypt, which was
eventually displaced by that which
originated in Upper Egypt. Hierarchical
society with much social and economic
differentiation, as symbolized in the
Nagada II cemeteries of Upper Egypt,
does not seem to have been present,
then, in Lower Egypt, a fact which
supports an Upper Egyptian origin for
the unified state. Thus archaeological
evidence cannot support earlier theories
that the founders of Egyptian civilization
were an invading Dynastic race from the
east.."

"Egyptian contact in the 4th millennium
B.C. with SW Asia is undeniable, but the
effect of this contact on state formation
is Egypt is less clear... The unified state
which emerged in Egypt in the 3rd
millenium B.C. however, was unlike the
polities in Mesopotamia, the Levant,
northern Syria, or Early Bronze Age
Palestine- in sociopolitical organization,
material culture, and belief system. There
was undoubtedly heightened commercial
contact with SW Asia in the 4th
millennium B.C., but the Early Dynastic
state which emerged in Egypt is unique
and religious in character."
(Bard, Kathryn A. 1994 The Egyptian
Predynastic: A Review of the Evidence.
Journal of Field Archaeology
21(3):265-288.)

"From Petrie onwards, it was regularly
suggested that despite the evidence of
Predynastic cultures, Egyptian
civilization of the 1st Dynasty appeared
suddenly and must therefore have been
introduced by an invading foreign 'race'.
Since the 1970s however, excavations at
Abydos and Hierakonpolis have clearly
demonstrated the indigenous, Upper
Egyptian roots of early civilization in
Egypt.

Contact between northern Egypt and
Palestine was overland, as evidence in
northern Sinai demonstrates.. Israeli
archealogists suggest that this evidence
represents a commercial network
established and controlled by the
Egyptians as early as EBA Ia, and that
this network was a major factor in the
rise of the urban settlements found later
in Palestine EBA II. Naomi Porat's
technological study of ceramics from
EBA sites in southern Palestine clearly
demonstrates that in EBA Ib strata many
of the pottery vessels used for food
preparation were probably manufactured
by Egyptian potters using Egyptian
technology but local Palestinian clays. In
EBA Ib strata there are also many
storage jars made from Nile silt and marl
wares, which must have been imported
from Egypt. Not only did the Egyptians
establish camps and way stations in
northern Sinai, but the ceramic evidence
also suggests that they established a
highly organized network of settlements
in southern Palestine where an Egyptian
population was in residence."
(Ian Shaw ed. (2003) The Oxford
History of Ancient Egypt By Ian Shaw.
Oxford University Press, page 40-63)



Much older scholarship shows cultural
similarities between ancient Egypt and
the rest of Africa, contradicting claims of
Middle Eastern inspiration.

--Specific central African tool designs
found at the well known Naqada, Badari
and Fayum archaeological sites in Egypt
(de Heinzelin 1962, Arkell and Ucko,
1956 et al). Shaw (1976) states that "the
early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum,
Badari Naqada I and II are essentially
African and early African social customs
and religious beliefs were the root and
foundation of the ancient Egyptian way
of life."
Pottery evidence first seen in the Saharan
Highlands then spreading to the Nile
Valley (Flight 1973).
Art motifs of Saharan rock paintings
showing similarities to those in pharaonic
art. A number of scholars suggest that
these earlier artistic styles influenced
later pharaonic art via Saharans leaving
drier areas and moving into the Nile
Valley taking their art styles with them
(Mori 1964, Blanc 1964, et al)

--Earlier pioneering mummification
outside Egypt. The oldest mummy in
Africa is of a black Saharan child
(Donadoni 1964, Blanc 1964) Frankfort
(1956) suggests that it is thus possible to
understand the pharaonic worldview by
reference to the religious beliefs of these
earlier African precursors. Attempts to
suggest the root of such practices are
due to Caucasoid civilizers from
elsewhere are thus contradicted by the
data on the ground.

--Several cultural practices of Egypt
show strong similarities to an African
totemic clan base. Childe (1969, 1978),
Aldred (1978) and Strouhal (1971)
demonstrate linkages with several
African practices such as divine kingship
and the king as divine rainmaker.

--Physical similarities of the early Nile
valley populations with that of tropical
Africans. Such connections are
demonstrated in the work of numerous
scholars such as Thompson and Randall
Mclver 1905, Falkenburger 1947, and
Strouhal 1971. The distance diagrams of
Mukherjee, Rao and Trevor (1955) place
the ancient Badarians genetically near
'black' tribes such as the Ashanti and the
Taita. See also the "Issues of lumping
under Mediterranean clusters" section
above for similar older analyses.

--Serological (blood) evidence of genetic
linkages. Paoli 1972 for example found a
significant resemblance between ABO
frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the
black northern Haratin who are held to
be the probable descendants of the
original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975).

--Language similarities which include
several hundred roots ascribable to
African elements (UNESCO 1974)

--Ancient Egyptian origin stories
ascribing origins of the gods and their
ancestors to African locations to the
south and west of Egypt (Davidson
1959)

--Advanced state building and political
unity in Nubia, including writing,
administrative apparatus and insignia
some 300 years before dynastic Egypt,
and the long demonstrated interchange
between Nubia and Egypt (Williams
1980)

--Newer studies (Wendorf 2001,
Wilkinson 1999, et al.) confirm these
older analyses. Excavations from Nabta
Playa, located about 100km west of Abu
Simbel for example, suggest that the
Neolithic inhabitants of the region were
migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa, based
on cultural similarities and social
complexity which is thought to be
reflective of Egypt's Old Kingdom

--Other scholars (Wilkinson 1999)
present similar material and cultural
evidence- including similarities between
predynastic Egypt and traditional African
cattle-culture, typical of Southern
Sudanese and East African pastoralists of
today, and various cultural and artistic
data such as iconography on rock art
found in both Egypt and in the Sudan.



Assorted demic diffusion theories
holding a mass influx of Europeans or
Middle Easterners to Africa bringing
cattle and agriculture to the natives is not
supported by credible evidence.
Indigenous development is most
likely.

"Furthermore, the archaeology of
northern Africa DOES NOT SUPPORT
demic diffusion of farming from the Near
East. The evidence presented by
Wetterstrom indicates that early African
farmers in the Fayum initially
INCORPORATED Near Eastern
domesticates INTO an INDIGENOUS
foraging strategy, and only OVER TIME
developed a dependence on horticulture.
This is inconsistent with in-migrating
farming settlers, who would have
brought a more ABRUPT change in
subsistence strategy. "The same
archaeological pattern occurs west of
Egypt, where domestic animals and,
later, grains were GRADUALLY
adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the
established pre-agricultural Capsian
culture, present across the northern
Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this
continuity, it has been argued that the
pre-food-production Capsian peoples
spoke languages ancestral to the Berber
and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic,
placing the proto-Afroasiatic period
distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P."

Source: The Origins of Afroasiatic
Christopher Ehret, S. O. Y. Keita, Paul
Newman;, and Peter Bellwood
Science 3 December 2004: Vol. 306. no.
5702, p. 1680


When claims of massive European or
'Mediterranean' migrant influx to ancient
Egypt before the Hyskos/Greek/Roman
era are analyzed research data
conclusively debunks them.
Quote from "Early Nile Valley Farmers
From El-Badari"


Male Badarian crania were analyzed
using the generalized distance of
Mahalanobis in a comparative analysis
with other African and European series
from the Howells?s database. The study
was carried out to examine the affinities
of the Badarians to evaluate, in
preliminary fashion, a demic diffusion
hypothesis that postulates that
horticulture and the Afroasiatic language
family were brought ultimately from
southern Europe. (The assumption was
made that the southern Europeans would
be more similar to the central and
northern Europeans than to any
indigenous African populations.) The
Badarians show a greater affinity to
indigenous Africans while not being
identical. This suggests that the
Badarians were more affiliated with local
and an indigenous African population
than with Europeans.
(S.O.Y. Keita. "Early Nile Valley
Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or
"European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants?
Craniometric Affinities Considered With
Other Data". Journal of Black Studies,
Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)







The Sahara and the Sudan seem to
have provided a major source for the
genesis of Egyptian civilization
contributing many of its unique
elements.

QUOTE(s):
"a critical factor in the rise of social
complexity and the subsequent
emergence of the Egyptian state in Upper
Egypt (Hoffman 1979; Hassan 1988). If
so, Egypt owes a major debt to those
early pastoral groups in the Sahara; they
may have provided Egypt with many of
those features that still distinguish it from
its neighbors to the east."
Journal of Anthropological Archaeology
17, 97-123 (1998), "Nabta Playa and Its
Role in Northeastern African Prehistory,"
Fred Wendorf and Romuald Schild.

"Over the last two decades, numerous
contemporary (Khartoum Neolithic) sites
and cemeteries have been excavated in
the Central Sudan.. The most striking
point to emerge is the overall similarity
of early neolithic developments
inhabitation, exchange, material culture
and mortuary customs in the Khartoum
region to those underway at the same
time in the Egyptian Nile Valley, far to
the north." (Wengrow, David (2003)
"Landscapes of Knowledge, Idioms of
Power: The African Foundations of
Ancient Egyptian Civilization
Reconsidered," in Ancient Egypt in
Africa, David O'Connor and Andrew
Reid, eds. Ancient Egypt in Africa.
London: University College London
Press, 2003, pp. 119-137)


"Sub-Saharan" genetic elements found
as far afield as the Turkish and Greek
regions

F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008).
Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine
Population and Eastern Mediterranean
Population Movements Human Biology -
Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008,
pp. 535-564

"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene
northward migration (from Africa to the
Levant and to Anatolia) of these
populations has been hypothesized from
skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace
2005) and from archaeological data, as
indicated by the probable Nile Valley
origin of the "Mesolithic"
(epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found
in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This
migration finds some support in the
presence in Mediterranean populations
(Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.;
Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the
Benin sickle cell haplotype. This
haplotype originated in West Africa and
is probably associated with the spread of
malaria to southern Europe through an
eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et
al. 2004) following the expansion of both
human and mosquito populations
brought about by the advent of the
Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003;
Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This
northward migration of northeastern
African populations carrying sub-Saharan
biological elements is concordant with
the morphological homogeneity of the
Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003),
which present morphological affinity with
sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972;
Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the
Neolithic revolution was assumed to
arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and
subsequently spread into Anatolia and
Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first
Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze
Age Mediterraneans and to some degree
other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans,
show morphological affinities with the
Natufians (and indirectly with
sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972;
Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a
process of demic diffusion accompanying
the extension of the Neolithic revolution
(Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."

"Following the numerous interactions
among eastern Mediterranean and
Levantine populations and regions,
caused by the introduction of agriculture
from the Levant into Anatolia and
southeastern Europe, there was,
beginning in the Bronze Age, a period of
increasing interactions in the eastern
Mediterranean, mainly during the Greek,
Roman, and Islamic periods. These
interactions resulted in the development
of trading networks, military campaigns,
and settler colonization. Major changes
took place during this period, which may
have accentuated or diluted the
sub-Saharan components of earlier
Anatolian populations. The second
option seems more likely, because even
though the population from Sagalassos
territory was interacting with
northeastern African and Levantine
populations [trade relationships with
Egypt (Arndt et al. 2003), involvement
of thousands of mercenaries from Pisidia
(Sagalassos region) in the war around
300 B.C. between the Ptolemaic
kingdom (centered in Egypt) and the
Seleucid kingdom
(Syria/Mesopotamia/Anatolia), etc.], the
major cultural and population
interactions involving the Anatolian
populations since the Bronze Age
occurred with the Mediterranean
populations form southeastern Europe,
as suggested from historical and genetic
data."

""In this context it is likely that Bronze
Age events may have facilitated the
southward diffusion of populations
carrying northern and central European
biological elements and may have
contributed to some degree of admixture
between northern and central Europeans
and Anatolians, and on a larger scale,
between northeastern Mediterraneans
and Anatolians. Even if we do not know
which populations were involved,
historical and archaeological data
suggest, for instance, the 2nd millennium
B.C. Minoan and later Mycenaean
occupation of Anatolian coast, the arrival
in Anatolia in the early 1st millennium
B.C. of the Phrygians coming from
Thrace, and later the arrival of settlers
from Macedonia in Pisidia and in the
Sagalassos territory (under Seleucid
rule). The coming of the Dorians from
Northern Greece and central Europe (the
Dorians are claimed to be one of the
main groups at the origin of the ancient
Greeks) may have also brought northern
and central European biological elements
into southern populations. Indeed, the
Dorians may have migrated southward to
the Peloponnese, across the southern
Aegean and Create, and later reached
Asia Minor."


Ancient Egyptian language is part of
the Afrasian or Afroasiatic group which
has its origins in Africa, and together
with other archaeological evidence firmly
makes it an African culture. Acording to
mainstream research:

QUOTE(s):

"Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in
ways and to an extent usually not
recognized, fundamentally African. The
evidence of both language and culture
reveals these African roots. The origins
of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas
south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian
language belonged to the Afrasian family
(also called Afroasiatic or, formerly,
Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the
earliest Afrasian languages, according to
recent studies, were a set of peoples
whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000
B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to
far northern Somalia in the east. They
supported themselves by gathering wild
grains. The first elements of Egyptian
culture were laid down two thousand
years later, between 12,000 and 10,000
B.C., when some of these Afrasian
communities expanded northward into
Egypt, bringing with them a language
directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian.
They also introduced to Egypt the idea
of using wild grains as food."
(Christopher Ehret (1996) "Ancient
Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt
as an African Culture." In Egypt in
Africa Egypt in Africa, Theodore
Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press)


"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language
group known as 'Afroasiatic' (formerly
called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest
relatives are other north-east African
languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's
cultural features, both material and
ideological and particularly in the earliest
phases, show clear connections with that
same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt
was an African culture, developed by
African peoples, who had wide ranging
contacts in north Africa and western
Asia." (Morkot, Robert (2005) The
Egyptians: An Introduction. Routledge.
p. 10)

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ANCIENT EGYPTIANS AND HAIR
----------


Mummification actices and dyeing of
hair
Hair studies of mummies note that color
is often influenced by environmental
factors at burial sites. Brothwell and
Spearman (ref in Fletcher's works-1963)
point out that reddish-brown ancient
color hair is usually the result of partial
oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other
causes of hair color "blonding" involve
bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the
mummification process. Color also varies
due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing
hair with henna. Other samples show
individuals lightening the hair using
vegetable colorants. Thus variations in
hair color among mummies do not
necessarily suggest the presence of blond
or red-haired Europeans or Near
Easterners flitting about Egypt before
being mummified, but the influence of
environmental factors.
--------

Egyptian practice of putting locks of
hair in mummy wrappings.

Racial analysis is also made problematic
by the Egyptian practice of burying hair,
in many "votive or funerary deposits
buried separately from the body, a
practice found from Predynastic to
Roman times despite its frequent
omission from excavation reports."
(Fletcher 2002) In examining hair
samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is
needed to determine what is natural scalp
hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair
extensions to natural locks. Tracking the
exact source of hair is also critical since
the Egyptians were known to have
placed locks of hair from different
sources among mummy wrappings. (The
Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher,
HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96; Joann
Fletcher, ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HAIR
AND WIGS, THE OSTRACON THE
JOURNAL OF THE EGYPTIAN
STUDY SOCIETY, VOLUME 13,
NUMBER 2; SUMMER 2002)
------------------------------------------------
-------------


Hair for wigs often obtained through
trade not mass waves of "Caucasoid"
migrants.

The use of wigs made of varying hair
also complicates attempts at 'racial'
analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that
many Egyptian wigs have been found
with what is defined as straighter
'cynotrichous' hair. This however is
hardly a marker of massive European or
Near Eastern presence or admixture.
Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often
eschewed their own personal hair,
shaving carefully and using wigs widely.
The hair for these wigs was often
obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair
itself being a valuable commodity ranked
alongside gold and incense in account
lists from the town of Kahun." Egyptian
trading links with other regions is well
known, and a prized commodity like
straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have
been easily obtained via the Sahara,
Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean
contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war
captives or casulaties from Egypt's
numerous conflicts.
------------------------------------------------
-------------


Red-headed Ramses- routine for
genetic variability in Africa not
"whiteness"

Rameses came along comparatively late
in Egyptian history, when outsiders
toEgypt like the Hyskos were increasing
in the region. Detailed microscopic
analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985)
identified some of the hair of Egyptian
Pharoah Rameses II as being a
yellowish-red. Such a finding should not
be surprising given the wide range of
physical variability in Africa, the most
genetically diverse region on earth, out
of which flowed other population
groups. Indeed, blondism and various
other hair shades are not unknown in
East Africa or Nubia, particularly in
children, nor are such hair color variants
uncommon in dark-haired or dark
skinned populations like the Australians.
(Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic
variability in Africa, a red-haired
Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses'
reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over
1,500 years after the Egyptian state had
been established, and after the Hyskos
interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like
the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans,
Arabs etc would add their own genetic
strands to the nation's mix. Whatever the
blend of genes that occurred with
Rameses, his hair offers little supposed
"proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt.
If anything, X-rays of several royal
mummies by mainstream scientists show
that the Egyptians pharoahs and other
royals had several uncomfortable
'Negroid' leanings.
(http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeo
ples/xraymummies1.htm)
------------------------------------------------
-------------


Red hair can be readily produced by
dark-skinned populations- just check out
Australia and pheomelanin

The finding of Rameses "red" hair also
deserves further scrutiny. The analysis
found evidence of dyeing to make the
hair yellowish-red, but some elements
were untouched by the dye. These
elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout's
study, were established on the basis of
the presence of pheomelanin, a
red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin
and hair of humans. However,
pheomelanin can also be found in persons
with dark brown or even black hair as
well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most
natural melanins contain sulfur, which is
typically associated with pheomelanin. In
scientific tests of melanin, black hair
contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3%
lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red
hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in
Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al.
1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair
discovered on Rameses is well within the
range of human variation for dark haired
people, whatever the exact gene
combination that led to the condition.

As noted above, such variation began
with ancient African populations. Most
red hair is found in northern and western
Europe, especially in the British Isles,
and even then it appears in minor
frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the
population. It is unlikely such
populations had any major contact or
influence in the ancient Nile Valley. The
analysis on Rameses also did not show
classic "European" red hair but hair of a
light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired
or dark-skinned populations are quite
capable of producing such yellowish-red
color variants on their own, as can be
seen in today's east and northeast Africa
(see child's photo above). Nor is such
color variation unusual to Africa. Native
dark-skinned populations in Australia,
routinely produce people witn blond or
reddish hair. .

The analysis also found Rameses' hair to
be cymotrich or wavy, again a
characteristic quite within the range of
overall African or Nile valley physical
and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic
type of straight hair was thus not
established for Rameses. Hence the
notion of white Europeans or red-headed
Caucasoids from other areas flowing into
ancient Egypt to add hair variation is
dubious. Inflows occurred during the
Greek and Roman eras but reddish or
brown hair is within the range of African
variation. Genetic studies (Tishkoff
2009, 2000) show Africans have the
highest diversity in the world.
Skeletal/cranial studies confirm the
pattern. Relethford (2001) shows that "..
methods for estimating regional diversity
show sub-Saharan Africa to have the
highest levels of phenotypic variation,
consistent with many genetic studies."
(Relethford, John "Global Analysis of
Regional Differences in Craniometric
Diversity and Population Substructure".
Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5,
October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara
2003 notes that [significant]
"..intraregional diversity are present in
Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient
Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair
variations easily fall under this pattern of
built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as
the above noted cultural practice of using
wigs with hair from different places
obtained through trade.


-----------------------


Joann Fletcher, ANCIENT EGYPTIAN
HAIR AND WIGS, THE OSTRACON
THE JOURNAL OF THE EGYPTIAN
STUDY SOCIETY, VOLUME 13,
NUMBER 2; SUMMER 2002

The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann
Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94,
96

Brothwell. D., and R. Spearman 1963
The hair of earlier peoples. In: Science in
Archaeology. D. Brothwell and E. Higgs,
eds. Thames and Hudeon, London, p.
427-436

Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair
Samples of Mummies from Semna
South, American Journal of Physical
Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262)

Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern
Africa," American Journal of Physical
Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990


Hair Styles and History, by Cyril Aldred,
The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Bulletin, New Series, Vol. 15, No. 6
(Feb., 1957), pp. 141-147)

L. Balout, C. Roubet and C.
Desroches-Noblecourt, and was titled La
Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution
Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).

Formation and Structure of Human Hair:
Biology and Structure, By Pierre Jollès,
Helmut Zahn, H. Höcker, Birkhäuser,
1996, pp. 200-225


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NUBIA AND EGYPT- Nubians and
Egyptians were so close in various eras
that they were virtually indistinguishable



“The ancient Egyptians referred to a
region, located south of the third cataract
the Nile River, in which Nubians dwelt as
Kush.. Within such context, this phrase is
not a racial slur. Throughout the history
of ancient Egypt there were numerous,
well documented instances that celebrate
Nubian-Egyptian marriages. A study of
these documents, particularly those dated
to both the Egyptian New Kingdom
(after 1550 B.C.E.) and to Dynasty XXV
and early Dynasty XXVI (about 720-640
BCE), reveals that neither spouse nor
any of the children of such unions
suffered discrimination at the hands of
the ancient Egyptians. Indeed such
marriages were never an obstacle to
social, economic, or political status,
provided the individuals concerned
conformed to generally accepted
Egyptian social standards. Furthermore,
at times, certain Nubian practices, such
as tattooing for women, and the unisex
fashion of wearing earrings, were
wholeheartedly embraced by the ancient
Egyptians." (Bianchi, 2004: p. 4)


'It is an extremely difficult task to
attempt to describe the Nubians during
the course of Egypt's New Kingdom,
because their presence appears to have
virtually evaporated from the
archaeological record.. The result has
been described as a wholesale Nubian
assimilation into Egyptian society. This
assimilation was so complete that it
masked all Nubian ethnic identities
insofar as archaeological remains are
concerned beneath the impenetrable
veneer of Egypt's material; culture.. In
the Kushite Period, when Nubians ruled
as Pharaohs in their own right, the
material culture of Dynasty XXV (about
750-655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian
in character.. Nubia's entire landscape up
to the region of the Third Cataract was
dotted with temples indistinguishable in
style and decoration from contemporary
temples erected in Egypt. The same
observation obtains for the smaller
number of typically Egyptian tombs in
which these elite Nubian princes were
interred. (Bianchi, 2004, p. 99-100)

- Robert Bianchi ( 2004). Daily Life of
the Nubians. Greenwood Publishing
Group


Integration of Nubian and egyptian
elites in some eras


"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.)
originated from the Aswan region.4 As
expected, strong Nubian features and
dark coloring are seen in their sculpture
and relief work. This dynasty ranks as
among the greatest, whose fame far
outlived its actual tenure on the throne.
Especially interesting, it was a member of
this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy
(riverine Nubian of the principality of
Kush), except such as came for trade or
diplomatic reasons, should pass by the
Egyptian fortress at the southern end of
the Second Nile Cataract. Why would
this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban
other Nubians from coming into
Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian
rulers of Nubian ancestry had become
Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they
exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and
adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient
Egyptians black or white?', Biblical
Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5,
1989)


The pharaohs that forbid the
movement of certain Nubian tribes into
Egypt were themselves of negroid origin
according to conservative mainstream
Egyptologist Frank Yurco..

Quote:

"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.)
originated from the Aswan region. As
expected, strong Nubian features and
dark coloring are seen in their sculpture
and relief work. This dynasty ranks as
among the greatest, whose fame far
outlived its actual tenure on the throne.
Especially interesting, it was a member of
this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy
(riverine Nubian of the principality of
Kush), except such as came for trade or
diplomatic reasons, should pass by the
Egyptian fortress at the southern end of
the Second Nile Cataract. Why would
this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban
other Nubians from coming into
Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian
rulers of Nubian ancestry had become
Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they
exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and
adopted typical Egyptian policies."

- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient
Egyptians black or white?', Biblical
Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5,
1989)

Applying a consistent 'race' model that
interprets war between Egyptians and
Nubians as 'racial' the Egyptians also
pursued 'racial' wars against whites from
the Middle East.


[IMG]http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wo
men/edwards/pharaohs/207.gif[/IMG]
RAMESES II. SLAYING THE "whites"
BEFORE RA, THE TUTELARY
DEITY OF THE GREAT TEMPLE OF
ABÛ-SIMBEL..


THE DISCOURSE OF AMEN-RA,
LORD OF THRONES.

Thou hast struck off the heads of the
Asiatics, and their children cannot escape
from thee. Every land illuminated by thy
diadem is encircled by thy might; and in
all the zone of the heavens there is not a
rebel to rise up against thee. The enemy
bring in their tribute on their backs,
prostrating themselves before thee, their
limbs trembling and their hearts burned
up within them."

Campaign against "white" Mittani in
parts of Lebanon:

"He is a king valiant ... Naharin which its
lord had deserted out of fear ... I hacked
up its towns and villages and I set fire to
them ... I carried off their inhabitants ...
also their herds of cattle ... I felled all
their plantations and their fruit trees ...I
had many vessels ... built on the
mountains of God's Land in the
neighborhood of the Lady of Byblos ...
then on that mountain of Naharin, my
Majesty erected my stela, carved out of
the mountain on the western side of the
Euphrates.."

Conquest against and tribute from
"white" Palestine:

"Tribute of the princes of Retenu, who
came to do obeisance ... to the souls of
his majesty... Now every harbor at which
his majesty arrived was supplied with
loaves and with assorted loaves, with oil,
incense, wine, f[ruit] ---- abundant were
they beyond everything ...


Tribute from 'white' Lebanon:

The chieftains, lord of Lebanon,
construct the royal ships in order that
people may sail south in them to bring all
the marvels of the "Garden" to the
palace. LPH. ... The chieftains of Retjenu
(Retenu) who drag the flagpoles by
means of oxen to the shore, it is they
who come with their dues to the place
where his majesty is, to the Residence in
...... bearing all the fine products brought
as marvels of the south and being taxed
for tribute annually as (with) all
bondsmen of his Majesty."


Operations against more 'white'
'Troglodytes':


"Then my Majesty made them take their
oaths of allegiance as follows: never
again shall we do anything evil against
Menkheperre (another name for
Thutmose III), may he live forever ...
Then my Majesty had them set free on
the road to their cities*). They went off
on donkeys for I had seized their
chariotry. I captured their inhabitants for
Egypt and their property likewise." [W.
Helck transl. by B. Cummings (1982),
`Urkunden der 18. Dynastie', `Egyptian
Historical Records of the Later 18th
Dynasty']

"His majesty proceeded northward, to
overthrow the Asiatics (Mntyw-Stt). His
majesty arrived at a district, Sekmem
(Skmm) was its name. His majesty led
the good way in proceeding to the palace
of `Life, Prosperity, and Health (L.P.H.,'
when Sekmen had fallen, together with
Retenu (Rtnw) the wretched, while I was
acting as rearguard." [Breasted,
`Records', Vol. I, Sec. 680]
Time of Seti the Great - Presentation of
Syrian Prisoners and Precious Vessels to
Amon

"Smiting the Troglodytes, beating down
the Asiatics (Mn·t·yw), making his
boundary as far as the `Horns of the
Earth', as far as the marshes of Naharin
(N-h-r-n)." [Ibid., Vol. III, Sec. 118;]

"Slaying of the Asiatic Troglodytes
(Ynw-Mn·t·yw [Menate, Manasseh]), all
inaccessible countries, all lands, the
Fenkhu of the marshes of Asia, the Great
Bend of the sea (w'd-wr)."


Booty seized from "white"
Caananites:

".... 340 living prisoners; 83 hands; 2,401
mares; 191 foals; 6 stallions; ... young ...;
a chariot, wrought with gold, (its) pole
of gold, belonging to the chief of
`M-k-ty' (as the land around Jerusalem
was called); .... 892 chariots of his
wretched army; total, 924 (chariots); a
beautiful suit of bronze armor, belonging
to the chief of Jerusalem; .... 200 suits of
armor, belonging to his wretched army;
502 bows; 7 poles of (mry) wood,
wrought with silver, belonging to the tent
of that foe. Behold, the army of his
majesty took ...., 297 ...., 1,929 large
cattle, 2,000 small cattle, 20500 white
small cattle." [JBRE, `Records', Vol. II,
Sec. 435; See also the following
sections.]


Tribute from "white"
Assur/Assyria
"The tribute of the chief of Assur
(Ys-sw-r): genuine lapis lazuli, a large
block, making 20 deben, 9 kidet; genuine
lapis lazuli, 2 blocks; total, 3; and pieces,
[making] 30 deben; total, 50 deben and 9
kidet; fine lapis lazuli from Babylon
(Bb-r); vessels of Assur of hrrt- stone in
colors, ---- very many." "Tribute of the
chief of Assur: horses ---. A ---- of skin
of the M-h-w as the [protection] of a
chariot, of the finest of --- wood;
190(+x) wagons --- --- wood, nhb wood,
343 pieces, carob wood, 50 pieces; nby
and k'nk wood, 206 pieces; olive oil,
------.." [BREASTED, Vol. II, Sec. 446,
449]


"Whites" put to slave labor in
Egypt.

from Project Guttenberg full text of:
A HISTORY OF EGYPT FROM THE
EARLIEST TIMES TO THE PERSIAN
CONQUEST
BY JAMES HENRY BREASTED,
II, 760-1, 773. 2 II, 761.

Inscription
"the Asiatics of all countries came with
bowed head, doing obeisance to the fame
of his majesty."


book text:

"Thutmose's war-galleys moored in the
harbour of the town; but at this time not
merely the iceaUh of Asia was unloaded
from the ships; the Asiatics themselves,
bound one to another in long lines, were
led down the gang planks to begin a life
of slave- labour for the Pharaoh (Fig.
119). They wore long matted beards, an
abomination to the Egyptians ; their hair
hung in heavy black masses upon their
shoulders, and they were clad in gaily
coloured woolen stuffs, such as the
Egyptian, spotless in his white linen robe,
would never put on his body.

Their arms were pinioned behind them at
the elbows or crossed over their heads
and lashed together ; or, again, their
hands were thrust through odd pointed
ovals of wood, which served as
hand-cuffs. The women carried their
children slung in a fold of the mantle
over their shoulders. With their strange
speech and uncouth postures the poor
wretches were the subject of jibe and
merriment on the part of the multitude ;
while the artists of the time could never
forbear caricaturing them. Many of them
found their way into the houses of the
Pharaoh's favourites, and his generals
were liberally rewarded with gifts of such
slaves; but the larger number were
immediately employed on the temple
estates, the Pharaoh's domains, or in the
construction of his great monuments and
buildings."

Ancient Egyptians warn against
cowardly, treacherous "whites"
comparing them to destructive thieves
and reptiles.


"The Instruction for King, Merikare
takes a similar tone for peoples in the
north (Lichtheim 1973: 10404):

Lo the miserable Asiatic (white),
He is wretched because of the place he's
in:
Short of water, bare of wood,
Its paths are many and painful because of
mountains.
He does not dwell in one place,
Food propels his legs,
He fights since the time of Horus..
He does not announce the day of combat,
Like a thief who darts about a group.."

"Asiatics (whites) are both cowardly and
pitiful, leading a marginal existence,
constantly fighting but with nothing ever
settled. They are also sly and ultimately
treacherous, attacking without warning.
This passage characterizes Asiatics as
both primitive and threatening.. In this
case, the passage reflects Egypt's
combination of colonial domination and
outright military conflict.."

Merikare goes on (Lichtheim 1976:
103-104)

"The Asiatic is a crocodile on its shore
It snatches from a lonely road,
It cannot seize a populous town."

"Along the same lines, the Prophecy of
Neferti (c. 1950 BC) portrays Asiatic
immigrants as a flock of rapacious birds
descending on Egypt, taking advantage
of civil wars of the First Intermediate
Period (c. 2150 - 2050 BC) to infiltrate
parts of the rich Egyptian delta
(Lichtheim 1973: 141):

A strange bird will breed in the delta
marsh,
having made its nest besides the people..
All happiness is vanished,
The land is bowed down in distress,
Owing to those feeders,
Asiatics who roam the land..

From: --Stuart Tyson Smith. (2003)
Wretched Kush: ethnic identities and
boundaries in Egypt's Nubian empire.
Routledge, pp. 28-31
=========================

Recent DNA study shows Berber roots foundational in
africa and African populations with deep-rooted African
DNA lineages not merely migration from the outside/

"Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene
flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia...
The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*,
which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern
sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our
results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan
gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b.
This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to
Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel
the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics
on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that
sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced
several complex population processes after the occupation
of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results
reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic
root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued
to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa."

-- Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in
Tunisian Berber Populations
Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)

"Our findings are in accordance with other studies on
Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant
Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup
E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North
African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in
Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the
Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that
the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was
a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest
Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the
Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001)."

--Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in
Tunisian Berber Populations Frigi et al., 2010
----------------

Conservative Egyptologist Frank
Yurco, shows that the 12th Dynasty was
of the negroid type, of Upper Egyptian
and Nubian origin. The 12th Dynasty is
one of Egypt's greatest, and was in place
approximately 1000 years before the
25th dynasty. Yurco also shows that the
Nubians were ethnically the closest
people to the Egyptians.


Quote:

"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.)
originated from the Aswan region. As
expected, strong Nubian features and
dark coloring are seen in their sculpture
and relief work. This dynasty ranks as
among the greatest, whose fame far
outlived its actual tenure on the throne.
Especially interesting, it was a member of
this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy
(riverine Nubian of the principality of
Kush), except such as came for trade or
diplomatic reasons, should pass by the
Egyptian fortress at the southern end of
the Second Nile Cataract. Why would
this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban
other Nubians from coming into
Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian
rulers of Nubian ancestry had become
Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they
exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and
adopted typical Egyptian policies."

- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient
Egyptians black or white?', Biblical
Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5,
1989)


"Among the foreigners, the Nubians were
closest ethnically to the Egyptians. In the
late predynastic period (c. 3700-3150
B.C.E.), the Nubians shared the same
culture as the Egyptians and even
evolved the same pharaonic political
structure."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient
Egyptians black or white?', Biblical
Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5,
1989)
-----------------------------
Emergence of Haplogroup M
occurred among dark-skinned tropical
peoples
– QUOTE:

"Macaulay's research team analyses the
Orang Asli, the aboriginal inhabitants of
the Malay Penisula, while Thangaraj and
colleagues focused on the Andamese
islanders, called 'Negritos' (for the
characteristic phenotype of dark skin),
both groups performing a large number
of complete mitochondrial sequences in
order to clarify the origin of these
populations. They discovered that both
Orang Asli and Andaman islanders
harboured ancient mtDNA lineages,
belonging to the founder haplogroups M,
N, and R, with coalescence ages of
~44,000 to ~63,000 years, which were
considered the legacy of an early
diffusion of modern humans out of
Africa. Thus, there was a single rapid out
of Africa dispersal (~70,000 years ago)
involving a founding group of
individuals harbouring the L3 mtDNA
haplogroup and starting from the Horn
of Africa towards the Persian Gulf and
further along the tropical coast of the
Indian Ocean to Southeast Asia and
Australasia. During this coastal
migration, haplogroups M, N and R
evolved and the ancestral L3 was lost.
Moreover, this scenario is strongly
supported by palaeoenvironmental
evidence, confirming that a northern
migration would have been impossible
during the glacial period extending from
~70,000 to 50,000 years ago."


Haplogroup M not found much in
Europe or the Middle East, but in Africa,
M1 appears
- QUOTE.

"The richest basal variation in the
founder haplogroups , N and R is found
among the southern stretch of Eurasia,
particularly in the Indian subcontinent
(Figure 1), suggesting a rapid
colonization along the southern coast of
Asia.. Western Eurasians, in contrast
with Southern Asians, eastern Eurasians,
and Australasians, have a high level of
haplogroup diversity within the
haplogroup N and R, but lack
haplogroup M also entirely (Figure 1)...
Although Haplogroup M differentiated
soon after the out of Africa exit and it is
widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and
India) and Oceania, there is an
interesting exception for one of its more
than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this
lineage is mainly limited to the African
continent with peaks in the Horn of
Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi .
(2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the
Sciences and in the Humanities.
Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50


Misleading "Eurasian" label flagged
by some scholars
- QUOTE:
"The historical linguistic data reported
earlier would apply in the case of
maternal lineages as well.. it is not likely
that the "northern" genetic profile is
simply due to "Eurasians" having
colonized supra-Saharan regions from
external African sources. It might be
likely that the greater percentage of
haplotypes called "Eurasian" are
predominantly, although not solely, of
indigenous African origin. As a term
"Eurasian" is likely misleading, since it
suggests a single locale of geographical
origins. This is because it can be
postulated that differentiation of the L3*
haplogroup began before the emigration
out of Africa, and that there would be
indigenous supra-Saharan/Saharan or
Horn-supra-Saharan haplotypes. More
work and careful analysis of mtDNA and
the archeological data and likely
probabilities is needed. Early hunting
and gathering paleolithic populations can
be modeled as having roamed between
northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an
asymmetrical distribution of various
derivative variants over a wide region,
giving the appearance of Eurasian
incursion."
--Keita, A, Boyce, A. (2005) Genetics,
Egypt, and History... History in Africa,
32, 221-246

------------------------------------------
------

“..the M1 presence in the Arabian
peninsula signals a predominant East
African influence since the Neolithic
onwards.“ -- Petraglia, M and Rose, J
(2010). The Evolution of Human
Populations in Arabia:


Conservative mainstream Oxford
Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt shows
ancient Egypt derived from an African
cultural sub-stratum

[QUOTE:]

[i]"The evidence also points to linkages to
other northeast African peoples, not
coincidentally approximating the modern
range of languages closely related to
Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group
(formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These
linguistic similarities place ancient
Egyptian in a close relationship with
languages spoken today as far west as
Chad, and as far south as Somalia.
Archaeological evidence also strongly
supports an African origin. A widespread
northeastern African cultural assemblage,
including distinctive multiple barbed
harpoons and pottery decorated with
dotted wavy line patterns, appears during
the early Neolithic (also known as the
Aqualithic, a reference to the mild
climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this
time resembles early Egyptian
iconography. Strong connections
between Nubian (Sudanese) and
Egyptian material culture continue in
later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper
Egypt. Similarities include black-topped
wares, vessels with characteristic
ripple-burnished surfaces, a special
tulip-shaped vessel with incised and
white-filled decoration, palettes, and
harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show
strong similarities to modern African
cultures including divine kingship, the
use of headrests, body art, circumcision,
and male coming-of-age rituals, all
suggesting an African substratum or
foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

-- Source: Donald Redford (2001) The
Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,
Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p.28

Ancient "Middle Easterners" lack the tropical body proportions of ancient Egyptians

QUOTE:

"There is long-standing disagreement regarding
Upper Pleistocene human evolution in Western
Asia, particularly the Levant. Some argue that
there were two different populations, perhaps
different species, of Upper Pleistocene Levantine
hominids. The first, from the Israeli sites of
Qafzeh and Skhul, is anatomically modern. The
second, from sites such as Amud, Kebara, and
Tabun, is archaic, or "Neandertal" in morphology.
Others argue that this is a false dichotomy and
that all of these hominids belong to a single,
highly variable population. In this paper I
attempt to resolve this issue by examining
postcranial measures reflective of body shape.
Results indicate that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids
have African-like, or tropically adapted,
proportions, while those from Amud, Kebara,
Tabun, and Shanidar (Iraq) have more
European-like, or cold-adapted, proportions. This
suggests that there were in fact two distinct
Western Asian populations and that the
Qafzeh-Skhul hominids were likely African in
origin - a result consistent with the
"Replacement" model of modern human origins.

"What we can say, however, is that in
the Holocene, humans from southwest
Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted
body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and
Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975). In
addition, while Levantine winters today
are generally characterized as mild
(Henkin et al. 1998), they are
nonetheless quite often cold, with
frequent snowfall—for example, the
winter of 1992 was particularly cold and
snowy in Israel (Vishnevetsky and
Steinberger 19%). Given that the
Holocene is a warm phase, yet recent
Levantine humans do not exhibit a
tropically adapted morphology, there is
little reason to assume that in the
(generally colder) Pleistocene epoch,
natural selection alone could result in
tropically adapted morphology in the
region.

Thus, the discovery of tropically adapted
hominids in the region would therefore
likely indicate population dispersal from
the TROPICS, and the most logical
geographic source for such an influx is
Africa. In this regard, Trinkaus (1981,
1984, 1995) and Ruff (1994) have
argued that the high brachial and crural
indices, narrow biiliac breadths, and
small relative femoral head sizes of the
Qafzeh-Skhul hominids suggest an
influx of African genes associated with
the emergence of modern humans in the
region."

---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the
Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western
Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series,
Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68


---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the
Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western
Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series,
Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
Holliday, T. 2000. Evolution at the Crossroads. Amr Anthr, 102. 54-68
==========================


"Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and
Merimde group them with African rather than
European populations. Mean femur length in males
from Maadi was similar to that recorded at Byblos
and the early Bronze Age male from Kabri, but
mean tibia length in Maadi males was 6.9cm longer
than that at Byblos. At Merimde both bones were
longer than at the other sites shown, but again,
the tibia was longer proportionate to femurs
than at Byblos (Fig 6.2), reinforcing the
impression of an African rather than Levantine
affinity."

-- Smith, P. (2002) The palaeo-biological
evidence for admixture between populations in the
southern Levant and Egypt in the fourth to third
millennia BCE. in E.C.M van den Brink and TE Levy, eds.
Egypt and the Levant: interrelations from the 4th through the
3rd millenium, BCE. Leicester Univ Press: 2002, 118-28
--------------------------------------------------------------


 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova - I see you doing this kind of post all the time now. Is it that you are trying to destroy other peoples threads? or is it that you are just too simple-minded to format your posts properly?
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Energy:
^^ I hope you know who the authors of the Bible are. Moses the founder of the nation started it off. His writings was followed by that of the Levites (members of Moses' tribe) who God appointed as shepherds of the Hebrews. These wrote the bulk of the Bible. Thus by claiming these were a bunch of Liars, you are inadvertently saying the Hebrews were a bunch of Liars. A statement, which as I pointed out is discrediting your own recorded history. Because the Bible is THE BLACK MAN'S HISTORY BOOK.

I don't think the Bible writers lied anywhere in the Bible because what they wrote was not very flattering about themselves.

But having said that, you might know something that I don't and since we are here to learn from one another I am happy to look at the evidence that PROVES my black ancestors who wrote the Bible were liars.

---

quote:

---

This treatment of the Patriarchal stories can serve as a model for the reading of Exodus. In this case too, the attempts to locate the events in the thirteenth centure B.C.E. in the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II, have faced insurmountable difficulties. There is no such an event in any New Kingdom Egyptian source, and there is no trace of the early Hebrews in Egypt. The northern coast of Sinai was protected by formidable Egyptian forts that could have easily prevented an escaping people from crossing the desert; there is no trace of Late Bronze remains in the rest of the Sinai peninsula, not even in a place like Kadesh-barnea, where the Israelites are supposed to have camped for a long time; and Canaan of that time was an Egyptian province, administered by Egyptian garrisons where fifty Egyptian soldiers were enough to pacify an area according to the Amarna letters. Finally, many of the placs mentioned in the story of Exodus and the wandering in the desert were not inhabited before the eighth or even seventh century B.C.E.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:


This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Jews being led inton exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Oxford University Press, 1998

quote:

---

Originally posted by Energy:
Why come here and waste hours on discussions on ancient Egypt if one does not feel any connection with Kemet? In fact this whole post is denouncing the countless hours we spend discussing Kemet and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming kemitian descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former Slave Coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the Slave Coast and discuss Kemet instead?

The people of of the former Slave Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

---

Why come here and waste hours on discussions on Israel if one does not feel any connection with Israel? In fact your whole post is denouncing the countless hours Energy spends discussing Israel and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming Hebrew descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former slave coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the West Coast and discuss Israel instead?

The people of the West Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

---

Apparently West African scholars don't feel you, girl, because they have learned the European colonialists rhetoric was not quite accurate. West Africans were not just confined to one locality, but the product of many peoples of diverse and long heritages coming together. National heritage which is based on limited time period should not be used to suppress history and ancestry.

Catherine Acholonu-Olumba - authored books claiming Ibo dialect and culture has close links to Sumerian, Dravidian and early Mesopotamian culture. This is a claim of other "West African" scholars, too .


Furthermore the people of Ghana and other people u have displayed above always claimed descent from much further east even past Egypt. Because various portions of each of these people have always been linked together. The Negroid people of Mesopotamia and China have been linked with those of Nubia and western Africa long before the Cushitic so called non-Negroid blacks were. That is why u find the Benin haplotype and other sickle cell spread so far east as Oman and India.

It is too bad some on here don't appear to understand that AFrica is indeed just a continent but in any case the geographic landscape of Africans once extended well into Asia.


There is no question the Lachish people, just like the modern Kahin Jewish inhabitants Khaibar Arabia today and the smaller Beja types were the same African grouping that once occupied Egypt so I don't know what u were trying to prove with that photograph.



"This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Jews being led inton exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot" (701 BC)


Ababda Beja woman

Do you even know where Lachish is located?!


Lachish men taken by Assyrians

Can't win can u!

What people like yourself are not getting is that between 15,000 years ago and the late Bronze Age most of the known cultured world was comprised of black African affiliated peoples of the same type that now occupy south of the Sahara.

There is a reason why the Sumerians called themselves Sag gigga and why the Dravidian culture and Indonesian culture has hundreds of cultural connections to Africans. Why Akkad was founded by Nimrod son of Cush. Why Greeks Romans and Syrians claimed Arabia and Canaanites were black and said Osiris - who is still a major deity in black Africa - founded colonies from Africa to Nysa or what was then northern India. Why the Chinese texts state their founding culture Shang had black and oily skin. And why the proto-type of Stone Henge is found in the Nubian desert thousands of years EARLIER than in Britain with black skeletons! And why Moors were called black as pitch in early Europe in many documents, and why early Scandinavian records document small black people in their lands. And why Olmecs built 15 ton stone heads wearing cornrows and placed them atop THEIR pyramids with internal dimensions similar to those in Africa! And why Lemba have the closest affiliation to the Kohen.

Fact: Black tropically affiliated Africans were the predominant people of the world until recently.

That in truth is why you find undeniable links between the Dravidians and modern Africans. Why Fijians claim descent from early Africans, why the roots of early Polynesian culture r fnow established to be in Vanuatu-Tonga area and why early Polynesians and Fijians rulers look like they did - AFRICAN.

Most of the people of the ancient civilized world were indeed blacks of various sorts. This is an undeniable if unwelcome truth that even many European scholars are accepting - AGAIN.

Join the crowd. Why the h_ _ _ are u asking sub-Saharan Africans to give up their plainly documented ancient roots when nationalists around the world r claiming blacks contributed nothing to those cultures and did nothing in the world and are fit only for slavery.

If they have the most ancient and widespread civilizations on the earth y should they be asked to forget that or confine themselves to one region.

If u are really black - which I doubt - u need to get over ur Svenskaesque NeoNazified attitude toward ur own people!
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
But hardly anyone here is claiming direct Kemetian ancestry in the same way as one claim Ashanti,Zulu,Malian,Twa, or any other off course I am saying this as a diasporan Black of general African decent and not Continental African.

---

Oh but Brada we do. Why come here and waste hours on discussions on ancient Egypt if one does not feel any connection with Kemet? In fact this whole post is denouncing the countless hours we spend discussing Kemet and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming kemitian descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former Slave Coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the Slave Coast and discuss Kemet instead?

The people of of the former Slave Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

---

LOL.This is a silly thread. Everyone knows that the people in West Africa formerly lived in Nubia and Egypt. As a result, it is proper to study ancient Egypt as our ancestral home.

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


Inyotef 1

Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.

In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.

He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.

Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.

Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage.
It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.

We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr

• Tutsi
  Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
  
  Akan
  Akan - the name of a god
  Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
  
  Fante
  Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
  
  Hausa
  Hosa - a singing god
  
  Yoruba
  Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
  Ouruba - Great God of soul
  
  The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...

---

It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.

Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.


During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.

Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.





Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph


I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.

Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.


Mentuhotep




Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.


MIDDLE KINGDOM


It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.

The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.

Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.

It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.

The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.

Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization


.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Egypt a Pan-African Civilization

Over the years Diop and other researchers have identified linguistic evidence that ancient Egyptian and Black African languages are related. This suggest that speakers of these languages formerly lived together.

It has been pointed out that the ancestors of the Egyptians originally lived in the Sahara.


There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.

The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).

Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).

This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.

If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.

Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.

The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.

A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.

Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.

A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.

Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.

DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.


Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.


We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.

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Originally posted by Wally:

• Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
  
  Tutsi
  Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
  
  Akan
  Akan - the name of a god
  Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
  
  Fante
  Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
  
  Hausa
  Hosa - a singing god
  
  Yoruba
  Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
  Ouruba - Great God of soul
  
  The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they (authors of the bible) admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said; basically the Hebrew people didn't care.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

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Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr (updated)

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god
(The Sahidic Coptic word for 'to sing; song' is Hos. Note: There are also towns in Ethiopia & Angola named 'Hosa'.

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

Fulani
The word for Fulani in Wolof is Pël, from this the French derived Peul
Paal - a Kushite god; a form of Ra

Twi (an Akan linguistic group)
Twi - the name of a god

Oromo
Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people in the Oromo language
Orma ; Oromo - the name of a god

Edo
Edo - name of a god; also a city in Keme

The Bini, the original people and founders of the Benin empire (aka, Edo empire)
Binni - a phallic god
...

With the possible exception of the Tutsi and the Oromo, African Americans are genetically descendants of all these ethnic groups...

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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Originally posted by Energy:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
But hardly anyone here is claiming direct Kemetian ancestry in the same way as one claim Ashanti,Zulu,Malian,Twa, or any other off course I am saying this as a diasporan Black of general African decent and not Continental African.

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Oh but Brada we do. Why come here and waste hours on discussions on ancient Egypt if one does not feel any connection with Kemet? In fact this whole post is denouncing the countless hours we spend discussing Kemet and not Africa in general.

If like you said focus in not necessarily claiming kemitian descent, then why not discuss other African civilisations in equal measure? Even better, why not discuss the people of the former Slave Coast in Africa who we know were our real ancestors. Why do we pointedly ignore the Slave Coast and discuss Kemet instead?

The people of of the former Slave Coast are our known ancestry. Lets talk about them for a change please.

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LOL.This is a silly thread. Everyone knows that the people in West Africa formerly lived in Nubia and Egypt. As a result, it is proper to study ancient Egypt as our ancestral home.

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Geologists are of the opinion that the eruption of the Santorini volcano at Santorini is the basis of the twelve plagues depicted in the Exodus. Post eruption, a vast neighborhood might have endured sufferings and tribulations like deluge, drought and firestorm etc. Not even cities located on higher platforms could escape the wrath of the devastating earthquakes.
Molten magma ash in all likelihood would have completely blackened the atmosphere.

Scientists believe that most of the twelve plagues occurred as a consequence of the volcanic activity. The mention of darkness in the Bible may be without doubt ascribed to the molten ash and pumice on the surface. Even the stormy winds were blowing to the southeasterly direction where Egypt was located.

Furthermore, according to renowned archaeologist Charles Pellegrino, high velocity dust storms were supposed to have rained down in Egypt from the dust clouds, thereby turning days into nights.The Exodus story also mentions about plague and devastating fire upon Egypt. Charles Pellegrino compares the Santorini eruptions with that of Mount St. Hellen in Oregon as a burning example of what the Santorini eruption might have been like.

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Originally posted by Swenet:

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This treatment of the Patriarchal stories can serve as a model for the reading of Exodus. In this case too, the attempts to locate the events in the thirteenth centure B.C.E. in the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II, have faced insurmountable difficulties. There is no such an event in any New Kingdom Egyptian source, and there is no trace of the early Hebrews in Egypt. The northern coast of Sinai was protected by formidable Egyptian forts that could have easily prevented an escaping people from crossing the desert; there is no trace of Late Bronze remains in the rest of the Sinai peninsula, not even in a place like Kadesh-barnea, where the Israelites are supposed to have camped for a long time; and Canaan of that time was an Egyptian province, administered by Egyptian garrisons where fifty Egyptian soldiers were enough to pacify an area according to the Amarna letters. Finally, many of the placs mentioned in the story of Exodus and the wandering in the desert were not inhabited before the eighth or even seventh century B.C.E.

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The quest for the historical Israel, p52
-David Finkelstein

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr (updated)

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god
(The Sahidic Coptic word for 'to sing; song' is Hos. Note: There are also towns in Ethiopia & Angola named 'Hosa'.

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

Fulani
The word for Fulani in Wolof is Pël, from this the French derived Peul
Paal - a Kushite god; a form of Ra

Twi (an Akan linguistic group)
Twi - the name of a god

Oromo
Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people in the Oromo language
Orma ; Oromo - the name of a god

Edo
Edo - name of a god; also a city in Keme

The Bini, the original people and founders of the Benin empire (aka, Edo empire)
Binni - a phallic god
...

With the possible exception of the Tutsi and the Oromo, African Americans are genetically descendants of all these ethnic groups...

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Originally posted by Swenet:

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Originally posted by Energy:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

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Where is your evidence to the contrary of the eye witness accounts of what the Hebrews wrote?

By saying the Hebrews aka the Erverhs were a bunch of liars you are saying your black ancestors were a bunch of Liars. That is a HUGE claim. I hope you have evidence to back up that statement.

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I don't think you understad what I've just said. I said the authors of the bible were a bunch of liars, not that the entire Hebrew nation consisted of liars. I also said that they weren't considered the spiritual leaders they made themselves out to be, so again, my beef is with the authors, not with the Hebrews in general.

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Thanks for your posting Swenet. I posted something that like this before from Finkelstein and of course got some backlash. In fact the reason u don't find any evidence of Hebrew Exodus from what is today called Egypt, is because ancient Hebrews of Genesis and Exodus i.e. the Canaanites, were located in southwest Arabia.


They moved into Syria many centuries later.

The hundreds of names of the villages, rivers and clans of the Biblical Israel, Canaan and Kush are found in southwest Arabia and contiguous regions in Ethiopia. That is where the ancestors of the Lemba and other Africans lived before returning to Africa and also heading northward in the 2nd millenium as Meluhha or Amelekites (when "the Canaanites spread abroad"). Mitzra was never the name of what is today called Egypt until after the Hyksos period, it was a region in southern Arabia. Their leaders also didn't call themselves "Pharaohs" (Faraun) which is also the name of an Arabian chief or chiefs.

The story of teh Exodus is very much part of the ancient Yemenite tradition of the flight from Marib (Meriba Exodus 17)and refers to the Sabir African Arabian culture that spanned regions in Tihama and East Africa. Moses there is called Amr Muzaikiyya and his wife Zarifa is Ziphorah.

Kemit and Sinai had nothing to do with the Biblical exodus. It is statistically impossible that 85 - 90% of all the place names mentioned in the Bible should be found in this region from Yemen to Jizan (See The Bible Came from Arabia) and the are around Mecca and u only find a small handful maybe a couple dozen at the most found within the confines of modern Israel/Palestine. Of course Zionists and supporters, i.e. Christian fundamentalists tend to want to discard that evidence.


Even Kush was the area that included Mecca further south into the Yemen and across the Red Sea in Africa. These the Hebrews or Ibarim were one and the same people, and hence the name Baribari or Berber Cushites.

Ibn Mudjawir knew about "a tradition that at least the southern Tihama (from Mecca southwards) was called Kus (Ibn Mugawir, Tarikh 83) by some ..." The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads p. 231 fn 52 by Jan Retso, (2003). Parentheses are the author's, not mine.

Kus, Canaan and Israel were of course contiguous places in the Hebrew Bible
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
That the Hebrews were Culturally unoriginal and insignifigant and that their "Chosen People" Bullcrap is a bunch of fables and myths.

Remind me again why anyone would want to claim to be a Hebrew??

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Originally posted by Energy:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
That the Hebrews were Culturally unoriginal and insignifigant and that their "Chosen People" Bullcrap is a bunch of fables and myths.

Remind me again why anyone would want to claim to be a Hebrew??

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i Still don't get your point.

The way you are carrying on reminds me of a child calling someone names. Say for example, you keep taunting me that my father is a drunk. My response would be; "So what?" It does not change the fact he is still my father.

So I ask you again; WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

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The Linguistic Methods of Chiekh Anta Diop By Clyde Winters

Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people.
C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991)
For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes
Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the
African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991)
claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop.
Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia
to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone.
In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that:
"An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.

COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that
"The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words.
Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.

HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels.
This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and
Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail
his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father.
Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans
and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items:
Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam

OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical
proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'

Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
Yoruba wa Fonge wa
Bini ya Mpongwe bya
Manding ya,dya Swahili (Ku)ya
between t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and
g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
Here we have shown the methods Anta Diop has used to rediscover the long and great history of Africans in Africa and the world. This methods allow us to reconstruct the Paleo-African culture formerly practiced by Africans in Africa, Asia and the Americas.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Another strange character. What about that website or blog you were building . . .bro?

BTW - MOST of us are NOT claiming we are direct descendants of the AEians. At least not me. Most likely my immediate forefathers were slaves from the Western part of Africa. Maybe even Mozambique, since I carry L2a1a.

But that doesn't negate the fact that AEians were indigenous Black Africans. And we are related through genetics,PN2, culture and more distant origin.

We have a lot more in common with AEians than the people who came from the Asian Steppes.

---

Think about this. NOWHERE, I repeat NOWHERE on this planet will you find people set up discussion boards or forums and discuss other peoples' history. They discuss their own.

Even in Africa you will not find the indigenous people discussing each others history. For example, you will never find Yoruba set up a forum to discuss Fulani history, or vice versa. It just wouldn't happen and no people in Africa carry on like that. It is just ridiculous behaviour.

Lets not pretend otherwise, there is a reason we dwell on Kemet. We talk about Kemet because we feel a connection. A connection we can't prove. Thus, dwelling on something we can't prove is just stupid. Until an African people come up and show conclusively they are descendants of the ancient kemetians, it is pointless dwelling on them.

On the other hand, can we prove our Hebrews roots? Yes we can! So why ignore what we can prove and dwell on what we cant?

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Tutmoses III (Djehutimes) & Sidney Poitier


Egyptian Princess & Michael Jackson


Barack Obama & Ikhnaton --- Michelle Obama & Queen Tiye


Ikhnaton - Barack Obama

the hieroglyph reads "Barak (praise...)"
...

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

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Where is your evidence to the contrary of the eye witness accounts of what the Hebrews wrote?

By saying the Hebrews aka the Erverhs were a bunch of liars you are saying your black ancestors were a bunch of Liars. That is a HUGE claim. I hope you have evidence to back up that statement.

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I don't think you understad what I've just said. I said the authors of the bible were a bunch of liars, not that the entire Hebrew nation consisted of liars. I also said that they weren't considered the spiritual leaders they made themselves out to be, so again, my beef is with the authors, not with the Hebrews in general.

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Thanks for your posting Swenet. I posted something that like this before from Finkelstein and of course got some backlash. In fact the reason u don't find any evidence of Hebrew Exodus from Egypt, is because ancient Hebrews of Genesis and Exodus i.e. the Canaanites, were located in southwest Arabia.


They moved into Syria many centuries later.

The hundreds of names of the villages, rivers and clans of the Biblical Israel, Canaan and Kush are found in southwest Arabia and contiguous regions in Ethiopia. That is where the ancestors of the Lemba and other Africans lived before returning to Africa and also heading northward in the 2nd millenium as Meluhha or Amelekites (when "the Canaanites spread abroad"). Mitzra was never the name of what is today called Egypt until after the Hyksos period, it was a region in southern Arabia. Their leaders also didn't call themselves "Pharaohs" (Faraun) which is also the name of an Arabian chief or chiefs.

Kemit and Sinai had nothing to do with the Biblical exodus. It is statistically impossible that 85 - 90% of all the place names mentioned in the Bible should be found in this region from Yemen to Jizan (See The Bible Came from Arabia) and the are around Mecca and u only find a small handful maybe a couple dozen at the most found within the confines of modern Israel/Palestine.


Even Kush was the area that included Mecca further south into the Yemen and across the Red Sea in Africa. These the Hebrews or Ibarim were one and the same people, and hence the name Baribari or Berber Cushites.

Ibn Mudjawir knew about "a tradition that at least the southern Tihama (from Mecca southwards) was called Kus (Ibn Mugawir, Tarikh 83) by some ..." The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads p. 231 fn 52 by Jan Retso, (2003). Parentheses are the author's, not mine.

Kus, Canaan and Israel were of course contiguous places in the Hebrew Bible

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

---

Where is your evidence to the contrary of the eye witness accounts of what the Hebrews wrote?

By saying the Hebrews aka the Erverhs were a bunch of liars you are saying your black ancestors were a bunch of Liars. That is a HUGE claim. I hope you have evidence to back up that statement.

---

I don't think you understad what I've just said. I said the authors of the bible were a bunch of liars, not that the entire Hebrew nation consisted of liars. I also said that they weren't considered the spiritual leaders they made themselves out to be, so again, my beef is with the authors, not with the Hebrews in general.Thanks for your posting Swenet. I posted something that like this before from Finkelstein and of course got some backlash. In fact the reason u don't find any evidence of Hebrew Exodus from Egypt, is because ancient Hebrews of Genesis and Exodus i.e. the Canaanites, were located in southwest Arabia.


They moved into Syria many centuries later.

The hundreds of names of the villages, rivers and clans of the Biblical Israel, Canaan and Kush are found in southwest Arabia and contiguous regions in Ethiopia. That is where the ancestors of the Lemba and other Africans lived before returning to Africa and also heading northward in the 2nd millenium as Meluhha or Amelekites (when "the Canaanites spread abroad"). Mitzra was never the name of what is today called Egypt until after the Hyksos period, it was a region in southern Arabia. Their leaders also didn't call themselves "Pharaohs" (Faraun) which is also the name of an Arabian chief or chiefs.

Kemit and Sinai had nothing to do with the Biblical exodus. It is statistically impossible that 85 - 90% of all the place names mentioned in the Bible should be found in this region from Yemen to Jizan (See The Bible Came from Arabia) and the are around Mecca and u only find a small handful maybe a couple dozen at the most found within the confines of modern Israel/Palestine.


Even Kush was the area that included Mecca further south into the Yemen and across the Red Sea in Africa. These the Hebrews or Ibarim were one and the same people, and hence the name Baribari or Berber Cushites.

Ibn Mudjawir knew about "a tradition that at least the southern Tihama (from Mecca southwards) was called Kus (Ibn Mugawir, Tarikh 83) by some ..." The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads p. 231 fn 52 by Jan Retso, (2003). Parentheses are the author's, not mine.

Kus, Canaan and Israel were of course contiguous places in the Hebrew Bible

---

In fact the reason you don't find any evidence of Hebrew Exodus from Egypt, is because ancient Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians and masters do not have a habit of recording information about their slaves. It is that simple.


Let me ask you this. If we go back and look at the history of America during the Slave Trade, do you think white people would have any writings to say all those grand buildings they live in were built by the black slaves from Africa? Of course not!

My point is; oppressors don't bother with those they oppressed let alone write about them. They see these are beneath them. Thus you will find all those like the Babylonians and the Assyrians who also enslaved the Hebrews did not write anything about them either. What we have from their records of the Hebrews were written when the Hebrews were a powerful nation in their own right. However, after conquering the Hebrews and they became their slaves, both the Assyrians and the Babylonians never mentioned Hebrews again in their records. They simply forgot about them. That is the lot of the slave. No one mentions them in History.

The Hebrews for the most part of their time in ancient Egypt were slaves to the Egyptians thus it is not surprising the Egyptians failed to mentions them in their records.

The Hebrews on the other hand mentioned what they went through. Same way as Caribbean and African-Americans are those who tell the world of the atrocities of the Slave trade. Left to the White enslavers, much of what we know of the brutalities of slavery will never be known because the oppressor does not write about their slaves.

Going by your logic, then we can say, because the Slave owners did not leave any records about the African slaves. We have to take every everything Caribbean and African-Americans say about slavery with a pinch of salt. You catch my drift?

Masters do not write about their servants in their history books. That is a fact. It is very simple logic and when you study world history you find this is the case across the board. Thus for the ancient Egyptians not having much to say about their Hebrew slaves does not mean the slave did not exist in Egypt. The Egyptians simply did not bother to mention their slaves because that is simply how the cookie crumbles.

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The Hebrews were slaves to the Mitzraim/Muzir in Mitzrah (better known as (Mudar in later Arabic writings)this refers to an Afro-Arabian people and region not to the later Egypt in Africa which was in fact not called Egypt in the time of Muzaikiyya a man of Canaanite i.e. South Arabian/Ethiopic stock who married Midianite (YoKshan/Kushan) south Arabian stock later called Ghassan.

Egypt is not the word used in the original Torah texts. The word was Mizrah/Musri. The Greek Septuagint distorted a lot of the original name locations. There is also little proof of the place Israel found through archeological evidence in Syria at that time, either. It refers to a place south of Mecca where several peoples and places still known as Yasir'il are still found, and where the names of the majority of Israelite and Canaanite villages are also retained.


Philistine of Medinet Habu -

In the Bible Philistim are in the Bible said to be remnant of the Anakim of Canaan and at the same time the Caluhim who are Mitzraim.
Canaanites are still in their original land (western Yemen) but left for Syria and the Aegean in the middle of the 2nd millenium B.C. Their later remnants were called Phoenicians named probably named after the still extant village of Fenikha in the Yemen. Thus Herodotus brings the Canaanites from the Eritraean Sea.

Amlukh (Meluhha or Amalekites) are apparently still located there in Hadramaut as well. The Philistim, Amalekites, Anakim, Emim, Nephilim, Rephaim were all related very tall people. In post-Islamic texts the Emim are called Banu Umayma or Umama and the Nephilim are undoubtedly the Banu Nifal all closely connected to the peoples of the Wadi Dawasir and Wadi Beisha where are still the "tallest and blackest of the Arabs".

If u want to understand more about your ancestral past I would suggest u look into the writings of Bernard Leeman and Kamal Salibi who have discovered what most Europeans both Jewish and otherwise - don't want to hear.
 

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Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
 
@Energy
It has not been proven historically by anything outside mythological references that the Ancient Egyptians enslaved Hebrews whereas there is definite evidence of chattel enslavement of the peoples of the African diaspora. One thing i can say is despite what the Hebrews supposedly went through the Hebrews remained Hebrews by keeping their faith, knowledge and heritage. When giving the chance they chose to flee from their oppressors and formulate their own land. When it comes to (some) Africans they lost their faith, knowledge and heritage. When giving the chance they chose to integrate with their oppressor, stay in his land and become him. There is no comparison.

Furthermore this forum is labeled Egyptsearch.com so primary focus and knowledge exchange on Egypt is to be expected. Surely you knew this when you signed up on to this forum? Another important thing to mention is the legacy of Ancient Egypt / Kmt belongs to black people. You asking black people to simply dissociate themselves from parts of their heritage is equivalent to you asking the Chinese to dissociate themselves from parts of their heritage. We as black people are the manifestation of our heritage. Our identity bears our mark. If people view the Ancient Egyptians and do not see our mark then thats their problem and not ours. Its natural to develop a close kin-relationship with those or things you have the most common with. Its basic human nature. We are the following of those who came before us as black people this alone means we can't simply throw away or forget parts of our heritage for the sake of others. Doing so will only cause us more problems in the long run of our existence.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
@Energy
It has not been proven historically by anything outside mythological references that the Ancient Egyptians enslaved Hebrews whereas there is definite evidence of chattel enslavement of the peoples of the African diaspora. One thing i can say is despite what the Hebrews supposedly went through the Hebrews remained Hebrews by keeping their faith, knowledge and heritage. When giving the chance they chose to flee from their oppressors and formulate their own land. When it comes to (some) Africans they lost their faith, knowledge and heritage. When giving the chance they chose to integrate with their oppressor, stay in his land and become him. There is no comparison.

Furthermore this forum is labeled EGYPTsearch.com so primary focus and knowledge exchange on EGYPT is to be expected. Surely you knew this when you signed up on to this forum? Another important thing to mention is the legacy of Ancient Egypt / Kmt belongs to black people. You asking black people to simply dissociate themselves from parts of their heritage is equivalent to you asking the Chinese to dissociate themselves from parts of their heritage. We as black people are the manifestation of our heritage. Our identity bears our mark. If people view the Ancient Egyptians and do not see our mark then thats their problem and not ours. Its natural to develop a close kin-relationship with those or things you have the most common with. Its basic human nature. We are the following of those who came before us as black people this alone means we can't simply throw away or forget parts of our heritage for the sake of others.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Energy:
[qb]

---

In fact the reason you don't find any evidence of Hebrew Exodus from Egypt, is because ancient Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians and masters do not have a habit of recording information about their slaves. It is that simple.


Let me ask you this. If we go back and look at the history of America during the Slave Trade, do you think white people would have any writings to say all those grand buildings they live in were built by the black slaves from Africa? Of course not!

My point is; oppressors don't bother with those they oppressed let alone write about them. They see these are beneath them. Thus you will find all those like the Babylonians and the Assyrians who also enslaved the Hebrews did not write anything about them either. What we have from their records of the Hebrews were written when the Hebrews were a powerful nation in their own right. However, after conquering the Hebrews and they became their slaves, both the Assyrians and the Babylonians never mentioned Hebrews again in their records. They simply forgot about them. That is the lot of the slave. No one mentions them in History.

The Hebrews for the most part of their time in ancient Egypt were slaves to the Egyptians thus it is not surprising the Egyptians failed to mentions them in their records.

The Hebrews on the other hand mentioned what they went through. Same way as Caribbean and African-Americans are those who tell the world of the atrocities of the Slave trade. Left to the White enslavers, much of what we know of the brutalities of slavery will never be known because the oppressor does not write about their slaves.

Going by your logic, then we can say, because the Slave owners did not leave any records about the African slaves. We have to take every everything Caribbean and African-Americans say about slavery with a pinch of salt. You catch my drift?

Masters do not write about their servants in their history books. That is a fact. It is very simple logic and when you study world history you find this is the case across the board. Thus for the ancient Egyptians not having much to say about their Hebrew slaves does not mean the slave did not exist in Egypt. The Egyptians simply did not bother to mention their slaves because that is simply how the cookie crumbles.

---

Bernard Leeman also believes the Hebrews came back into Africa and were known as the Berbers. Hence the Baribari or Zaghawa or Gara/Jarawa peoples, Agau or Zaghwe and other related groups spread across Africa and the Sudan claiming descent from Habesh and the Hebrews. Many peoples across Africa are of partial descent from these Wangara traders. The tradition of early rulers of Ghana, Songhai and the Sudan being Hebrew is due to them.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
As for these taller groups such as Philistines and Amalek (Melukhha in Assyrian), colonial documenters like Robert Gordon Latham p. 83 in Descriptive Ethnology Vol. II London mention the Amalek in the 1859 century still living with the tribe of 'Ad in the environs of the Mahra (the latter were otherwise called Rhamanitae by Greeks - Biblical Ra'ama. Mahra one of many of the early "Hebrew" descendants or descendants of Eber/Abir groups occupy Hadramaut, Oman and Somalia today.

Abir is an ancient Yemenite tradition is the father of Thamud or Samud from which comes the name of the Mahra tribe of Samudayt.

In the Hebrew Bible Amalek is a descendant of Eliphaz (El Afsah) a Canaanite while Ad, in Arabian tradition ancestor of the Amalekites takes his name from Adah who in Hebrew tradition is mother of Eliphaz.

George Bury recounts this Afro-Arabian tradition in 1915, “The first concrete fact in the history of the Yaman is the birth of Joktan son of Eber, B.C., 2246. I identify Eber with Heber the pophet, or Hud as the Arabs call him, who preached to the Adites and warned them of the Divine vengeance...This is said to have overtaken them in the form of a raging simoom along the western margin of what is now called the Rub al Khali or the Empty Quarter…But to return to Joktan or Kahtan as the Arabs call him. He was a native of Hadramaut valley but settled in Yemen and introduced architecture and agriculture among the pastoral and tent dwelling tribes."


"Kramer supposes that Meluhha was identical with Ethiopia, Bibby that it was identical with India, Weidner that it has to be sought in southern Arabia..." The peoples named Meluhha were undoubtedly occupants of each of these areas. (See Foreign Trade in the Babylonian Period 1960 p. 159.)

Furthermore each of those regions were at one time called Ethiopia.

This thus is all Afro-Arabian tall pastoral Ethiopian historical tradition of the ancient "Ethiopians" of Herodotus that also needs to be recognized for what it is - True history of "Canaanite/Hebrews/Kushites" in Meroe in north and south Arabia and the Indus Valley. They were already both African and Arabian in chalcolithic or neolithic times as shown by the rock art of Rub al Khali in which these elongated pastoral "Negroids" are represented.
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
We have many depictions of the Jews/Israelites left by the Assyrians.

They don't look Negroid.

Here is Jehu (King of Israel) from the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III -



Jehu is the one kneeling. He's got straight-wavy hair -

close up:



Good luck finding a negro with hair like that.

Israelites -





Thin prominent noses, straight hair...

Statues of woman from Judah -



What exactly is negroid about these?
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Thanks for that piece of new info Zarahan it proves what earlier anthropologistpaleolithic Cro-magnon were in fact "Negroid" related to tropical Africans. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Thanks for that piece of new info Zarahan it proves what earlier anthropologistpaleolithic Cro-magnon were in fact "Negroid" related to tropical Africans. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
You got it wrong there Lioness, I talk about the HEBREWS, which is who I am. I don't spend even a second discussing Israel.

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Jerusalem appears in the Bible 641 times with its Hebrew name and 26 times in its Aramaic name, "Yerushalem"
What modern day country is the location of ancient Jerusalem in?

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Lioness I know Hebrew is synonymous with ancient Israel. Unfortunately the Hebrews are not in their homeland. European impostors live in their land now and claim to be Israel. However, these Jews in Israel do not claim to be Hebrews. Thus, we have to be careful not to confuse the present occupants of Israel with the real Hebrews. The Hebrews were a race of people who are currently spread all over Africa and the Americas. Hence, the reason I don't waste time discussing Israel but focus on the Hebrews. By discussing the Hebrews and not Israel, I separate the two and show they are not one and the same. Hope you understand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cassiterides:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Thanks for that piece of new info Zarahan it proves what earlier anthropologistpaleolithic Cro-magnon were in fact "Negroid" related to tropical Africans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Thanks for that piece of new info Zarahan it proves what earlier anthropologistpaleolithic Cro-magnon were in fact "Negroid" related to tropical Africans. [/QB]

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Cro-Magnons were orthognathic, thin nosed and wavy-straight haired. They were proto-Caucasoid.

What do the experts say?

Jantz and Owsley (2003) -

''Upper Paleolithic crania are, for the most part, larger and more generalized versions of recent Europeans.''

Howells (1997) -

''And the Cro-Magnons were already racially European, i.e., Caucasoid. This has always been accepted because of the general appearance of the skulls: straight faces, narrow noses, and so forth.''

=

Zaharan is a self-hating negro who hates Negroid racial traits and is *obsessed* with claiming black africans can have thin noses and straight hair. So although Cro-Magnons were thin nosed, straight-wavy haired with no prognathism - like White Europeans, Zaharan continues to spam Cro-Magnon were black/tropical african despite the fact all their racial traits were white. [/QB]

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LOL. Here is Cro-Magnon man he does not look caucasoid.


 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

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Cylde, would it be correct to say that the woman on the left is a descendant of albino Cushites that were trapped in caves?
What accounts for her features? Of which African tribe is she an albino version of?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Kushites were not trapped in the caves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Kushites were not trapped in the caves.

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If not Kushites, who are the African ancestors of the woman in the above photo?

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Khoisan.


.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Interesting, thanks
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Clyde as usual is lying.

Scientific reconstructions of Cro-Magnon -







They are proto-Caucasoid/White.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
"Sigh" there you guyz go again!! an interesting conversation started by Energy only to be side tracked by irrelevancies from a Troll with folks who know better, now while playing kickatroll in the balls is good fun lets keep it in his own threads but try to discard him in ours.

Back on topic we can all agree that Some of the Hebrews came out of the African house their language suggest this and at-least some of their remains do.

The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to from the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expedition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson:

Pliny The Elder-Roman Naturalist....

That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that that people of Western Judea was Africiod:

But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.

So how dark or lite, narrow featured or broad is not the issue, the issue is does it make sense to choose one over the other especially for a multi ethnic multi regional black person of African decent who ancestors may vary from Ashanti to Madagascans.
 

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Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
 
I agree with you -Just Call Me Jari- and i have another point about the hebrew myths.I get my african history info from history books that have proven info,not blogs,but sometimes you have to know what else it out there but i am do not waste my time on that stuff anymore,but when i saw this thread i said to myself should i open it?i did,but next time i will try to avoid a thread like this in future,but since i am here let me say this.

I ONCE saw a youtube video that said the meroe was created by arabs and it's of arab origin,the culture etc
what non-sense.


One thing i am clear on,the early ghana,songhay rulers were not not hebrews.They were mande and songhai.The Zaghawa are not not hebrews. Sudanese rulers were not hebrew in origin either and meroe was just a kushite city. I used to have long debates about this on the richard poe forum before it was locked .


The Zaghawa (also spelled Zakhawa) are an ethnic group of eastern Chad and western Sudan, including Darfur.
The Saharan languages are a small family of languages spoken across parts of the eastern Sahara, extending from northwestern Darfur to southern Libya, north and central Chad, eastern Niger and northeastern Nigeria. Noted Saharan languages include Kanuri, Tedaga, Dazaga, and Zaghawa. They are a part of the proposed Nilo-Saharan family.


There seems to be another origin story,but of course it's non-sense.


Theories about Origins
There are two views concerning the foundation of Kanem. The majority view based on previous scholarship is that the state was founded by local Zaghawa. According to recent research by historian Dierk Lange, the Kanem state was founded by immigrants from the Near East, however, due to its novelty this view is not yet widely accepted.

State founding by immigrants from the collapsed Assyrian Empire: c. 600 BCE

The information contained in the prologue and the first section of the Girgam provides evidence for the founding of Kanem by refugees from the collapsing Assyrian Empire: the names of biblical patriarchs point to Israelites, the names of ancient Mesopotamian kings indicate Babylonian contributions and the names of the last Assyrian kings bear witness of immigration in consequence of the fall of Assyria.[3] The royal titles offered by the Girgam and the origin-chronicles support the idea of mass immigration of various people formerly dominated by the Assyrians in consequence of the destruction of the Assyrian Empire by the invading Babylonian and Median armies in 612 BCE. The theory is further strengthened by linguistic and archeological evidence. Writing in the ninth century, the celebrated Arab historian al-Ya'qubi seems to refer to this migration on the basis of Central Sudanic oral traditions when he describes the dispersion of people from Babylon which led to the foundation of Kanem and other states in West Africa. Another theory proposes that the lost state of Agisymba (mentioned by Ptolemy in the middle of the 2nd century CE) was the antecedent of the Kanem Empire.

State founding by local Zaghawa: c. 700 CE
According to the majority scholarly opinion, the empire of Kanem began forming around 700 CE under the nomadic Tebu-speaking Zaghawa. Comparison of the information provided by the Dīwān and by Arab geographers shows that the Zaghawa were forced southwest towards the fertile lands around Lake Chad by political pressure and desiccation in their former range. The area already possessed independent, walled city-states belonging to the Sao culture. Under the leadership of the Duguwa dynasty, the Zaghawa would eventually dominate the Sao, but not before adopting many of their customs. War between the ruling establishment and the Sao continued in Bornu up to the late 16th century.


Agau, also spelled Agaw, an ancient people that settled in the northern and central Ethiopian Plateau; they are associated with the development of agriculture and animal husbandry in the area. The term Agau also refers to any of several contemporaneous groups that are either culturally similar or linked by a Cushitic language base. The Jewish Falasha (or “Black Jews”) are believed to have descended from the Agau, and they retain some of the old Agau words in their religious vocabulary. Agau dialects are spoken in the mountainous region of Simen northeast of the City of Gonder and in the area southeast of Gonder. Awiya, a dialect spoken south of Lake Tana, is believed to contain the strongest similarities of any of the dialects to the ancient Agau language. Amharic also has many Agau elements and influences.


___________________________


Baribari is a place with a very small population in the state/region of Upper East, Ghana which is located in the continent/region of Africa.


These folks are not hebrews but i can't find what ethnic group/s they come from when i type the name.

_____________________________________
The Jarawa or Jrāwa were a Berber Zenata tribal confederacy that flourished in northwest Africa during the seventh century CE. Under l-Kahna, they led the Berber resistance to Arab invasion in the late 600s.
Kahina

al-Kāhina (Classical Arabic for "female seer"; modern Maghreb Arabic: L-Kahna, Berber: Dihya or Kahya, Romanized name: Kahina) was a 7th century female Berber religious and military leader, who led indigenous resistance to Arab expansion in Northwest Africa, the region then known as Numidia, known as the Maghreb today. She was born in the early 7th century and died around the end of the 7th century probably in modern day Algeria.

Kahina's disputed origins and religion

Over four centuries after her death, Tunisian hagiographer al-Mālikī seems to have been among the first to state she resided in the Aurès Mountains. Just on seven centuries after her death, the pilgrim at-Tijani was told she belonged to the Lūwāta tribe.When the later historian Ibn Khaldun came to write his account, he placed her with the Jrāwa tribe.

According to various sources, al-Kāhinat was the daughter of Tabat, or some say Mātiya[3]. These sources depend on tribal genealogies, which were generally concocted for political reasons during the 9th century.

Accounts from the nineteenth century on claim she was a Jew or that her tribe were Judaized Berbers, though scholars dispute this[5]. According to al-Mālikī she was said to have been accompanied in her travels by what the Arabs called an "idol", possibly an icon of the Virgin or one of the Christian saints,[6] but certainly not something associated with Jewish religious customs.

The idea that the Jrāwa were Judaized comes from the medieval historian Ibn Khaldun, who named them among a number of such tribes. Hirschberg and Talbi note that Ibn Khaldun seems to have been referring to a time before the advent of the late Roman and Byzantine empires, and a little later in the same paragraph seems to say that by Roman times "the tribes" (presumably those he had listed before) had become Christianized.[7] In the words of H. Z. Hirschberg, "of all the known movements of conversion to Judaism and incidents of Judaizing, those connected with the Berbers and Sudanese in Africa are the least authenticated. Whatever has been written on them is extremely questionable."[8] Hirschberg further points out that in the oral legends of Algerian Jews, "Kahya" was depicted as an ogre and persecutor of Jews.

al-Kāhinat may have been of mixed descent: Berber and Byzantine Christian, since one of her sons is described as a 'yunani' or Greek.

Ibn Khaldun records many legends about al-Kāhinat. A number of them refer to her long hair or great size, both legendary characteristics of sorcerers. She is also supposed to have had the gift of prophecy and she had three sons, which is characteristic of witches in legends. Even the fact that two were her own and one was adopted (an Arab officer she had captured), was an alleged trait of sorcerers in tales. Another legend claims that in her youth, she had supposedly freed her people from a tyrant by agreeing to marry him and then murdering him on their wedding night. Virtually nothing else of her personal life is known.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Kenndo one must be careful of having knee jerk reaction to the fact that Jews/Hebrews were in any part of Africa,after all we accept that Christians, Muslims and perhaps even Buddhist in this case Meroe were present,however that does not mean that every Tom,Dick and Harry were Jews or connected to them in any meaningful way,everyone of the large civilizations in Africa attracted folks from near and far we have to keep reminding ourselves that South of the Desert civilizations were not isolated the Songhai Jews are an example Askia Mohammed forced them to convert,and it doesn't mean they looked like most Western Jews but were Blacks like their non Jewish neighbors.


Larabanga Mosque dates from the 13th cenury in present day Ghana now if Muslims were doing business that far south at that time why is it so difficult to believe Jews were not present given the fact they had no beef with Muslims or the people who control the area at that time,Christians would have been different that bad taste in every ones mouth called the Crusades plus Muslims invading Christian lands in Europe would have been problematic.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
Come on Brada, why bother responding? Didn't you notice the guy did not say anything of substance worth responding to? You should simply have IGNORED him. This is an intellectual debate where people deal with facts, not opinions. Did you see kendo offering any intellectual argument as to why people who are called Erverh in Africa can not be Erverh? He did not because he can't. Read his post again, all he has said is express his EMOTIONS. Peoples' history are not based on FEELINGS. They are based on cold hard FACTS. And that is completely missing in whatever Kendo had to say. To take him seriously, he has to come up with arguments to refute how the Erverh people of the Slave Coast can not be who I say they are. So far, I haven't see anything remotely close to that line of approach in his post.

As for Jari or whatever his name is; the less said about him the better. The fact that there are Black people called Erverh seem to drive him out of his mind with anger. Again read his posts. All he has resorted to are personal insults on myself and shout about what terrible people the Hebrews were. Which led me to ask him; "And so what? Does the fact that my father being a certain way stop him being my father?" I doubt if he even understood the question I put to him. The guy is a DUNCE.

Remember we are discussing millions of real people in West Africa and no amount of emotional drivel is going to change the fact of who they are.

These people Kendo and Jari are simply wearing their emotions on their sleeves and spewing pure drivel. Nothing anyone says will convince them, because they have already made up their minds before looking at the evidence. So why bother? The thought of black people being the REAL Hebrews whose writings created civilization as we know it today, drives them mad with anger.

Those two don't belong to this debate. IGNORE them and hopefully they will get the message and move on.

The following is who we are in West Africa. Our EXODUS festivals celebrate our history. Similar festivals are celebrated by our people annually all over West Africa. Thus no amount of huffing and puffing from Jari and co will change an IOTA of our history and culture

ANLO CELEBRATING HOGBETSOTSO (EXODUS) FESTIVAL IN SOUTH EASTERN GHANA

 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The Hebrews who wrote the bible were a bunch of liars and considered a fringe of their own society, BY their own society, much like how we look upon groups like Jehova Witnesses and Mormons. Even they admit as much in all their tales of how the Hebrews didn't listen to what they, cough cough, I mean Yahweh said.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the exodus never happened, and they lied about their victories over Syrio-Palestinian and African populations. They were no force to be wreckoned with. Thats why everytime they are mentioned in a REAL historical document wherein they're mentioned (ie, outside of the bible), someone is detailing how they just put the smackdown on them.

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Where is your evidence to the contrary of the eye witness accounts of what the Hebrews wrote?

By saying the Hebrews aka the Erverhs were a bunch of liars you are saying your black ancestors were a bunch of Liars. That is a HUGE claim. I hope you have evidence to back up that statement.

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I don't think you understad what I've just said. I said the authors of the bible were a bunch of liars, not that the entire Hebrew nation consisted of liars. I also said that they weren't considered the spiritual leaders they made themselves out to be, so again, my beef is with the authors, not with the Hebrews in general.

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Thanks for your posting Swenet. I posted something that like this before from Finkelstein and of course got some backlash. In fact the reason u don't find any evidence of Hebrew Exodus from what is today called Egypt, is because ancient Hebrews of Genesis and Exodus i.e. the Canaanites, were located in southwest Arabia.
They moved into Syria many centuries later.

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quote:

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As for Jari or whatever his name is; the less said about him the better. The fact that there are Black people called Erverh seem to drive him out of his mind with anger. Again read his posts. All he has resorted to are personal insults on myself and shout about what terrible people the Hebrews were. Which led me to ask him; "And so what? Does the fact that my father being a certain way stop him being my father?" I doubt if he even understood the question I put to him. The guy is a DUNCE.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
And if you were really interested in Authentic Ancient Jewish presence in Africa, you would be all over the the Nile Valley and Kush. There was a Jewish community as far south as Elephantine and also in Modern Ethiopia. So its plausible many of the Egyptians and Ethiopians you love to bash are more authentic Hebrews than you are and further there is a Text that says Kush and Pathros explicitly as harboring Hebrews in the last days..


10 “ And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Mizriam,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
Zephaniah...
1 The word of the LORD that came to Zephaniah son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, during the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah:
8 Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD,
"for the day I will stand up to testify. [a]
I have decided to assemble the nations,
to gather the kingdoms
and to pour out my wrath on them—
all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed
by the fire of my jealous anger.


9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples,
that all of them may call on the name of the LORD
and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

10 From beyond the rivers of Cush
my worshipers, my scattered people,
will bring me offerings.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Good Find, whats even worse is that the Hebrews were obsessed with Egypt. The "Exodus" event was nothing but a ritual mockery of the Gods of Egypt and of the essence of Egypt.

http://www.padfield.com/2002/egypt_1.html

Also it seems some of the plagues were inspired by the effects of the eruption of Santorini..

quote:

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Geologists are of the opinion that the eruption of the Santorini volcano at Santorini is the basis of the twelve plagues depicted in the Exodus. Post eruption, a vast neighborhood might have endured sufferings and tribulations like deluge, drought and firestorm etc. Not even cities located on higher platforms could escape the wrath of the devastating earthquakes.
Molten magma ash in all likelihood would have completely blackened the atmosphere.

Scientists believe that most of the twelve plagues occurred as a consequence of the volcanic activity. The mention of darkness in the Bible may be without doubt ascribed to the molten ash and pumice on the surface. Even the stormy winds were blowing to the southeasterly direction where Egypt was located.

Furthermore, according to renowned archaeologist Charles Pellegrino, high velocity dust storms were supposed to have rained down in Egypt from the dust clouds, thereby turning days into nights.The Exodus story also mentions about plague and devastating fire upon Egypt. Charles Pellegrino compares the Santorini eruptions with that of Mount St. Hellen in Oregon as a burning example of what the Santorini eruption might have been like.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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This treatment of the Patriarchal stories can serve as a model for the reading of Exodus. In this case too, the attempts to locate the events in the thirteenth centure B.C.E. in the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II, have faced insurmountable difficulties. There is no such an event in any New Kingdom Egyptian source, and there is no trace of the early Hebrews in Egypt. The northern coast of Sinai was protected by formidable Egyptian forts that could have easily prevented an escaping people from crossing the desert; there is no trace of Late Bronze remains in the rest of the Sinai peninsula, not even in a place like Kadesh-barnea, where the Israelites are supposed to have camped for a long time; and Canaan of that time was an Egyptian province, administered by Egyptian garrisons where fifty Egyptian soldiers were enough to pacify an area according to the Amarna letters. Finally, many of the placs mentioned in the story of Exodus and the wandering in the desert were not inhabited before the eighth or even seventh century B.C.E.

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The quest for the historical Israel, p52
-David Finkelstein

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The authors of the bible were liars and they lied about alot of the populations that crossed them. Instead of doing it like men, and battling it out, the authors of the bible, being a relatively powerless fringe sect of their society, took revenge by taking to their pens and fabricating lies about the populations they hated, or even their own hated rulers. They fabricated the story of Esau to get back at the Edomites, they fabricated the story of the curse of Cham to get back at the Canaanites, they fabricated the story of Lot's incestous relationship with his daughters to get back at the Moabites and the Ammonites.

They took lying to a whole nother level.
 

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Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
 
Brada-Anansi i agree with you but this
Energy guy from the stuff i read from him just goes to far.


I found something about jews in western sudan. because i was looking at this info a few weeks ago before this thread started.

In the 8th century, the Radanites, a group of multi-lingual Jewish traders who traversed the known world by land and sea, including crossing the Sahara, settled in Timbuktu and its environs. [Note: This previous statement provides no accurate reference.] Further, Manuscript C of the Tarikh al-fattash describes a community called the Bani Israeel that in 1402 CE existed in Tirdirma, possessed 333 wells, and had seven princes:

It is also stated that they had an army of 1500 men. Other sources say that other Jewish communities in the region were formed by migrations from Morocco, Egypt, and Portugal. When the Scottish explorer Mungo Park traveled through West Africa in the late 18th century he was informed by an Arab he met near Walata of there being many Arabic speaking Jews in Timbuktu whose prayers were similar to the Moors. Some communities are said to have been populated by certain Berber Jews like a group of Kal Tamasheq known as Iddao Ishaak that traveled from North Africa into West Africa for trade, as well as those escaping the Islamic invasions into North Africa.


Islamic era
In the 14th century many Moors and Jews, fleeing persecution in Spain, migrated south to the Timbuktu area, at that time part of the Songhai Empire. Among them was the Kehath (Ka'ti) family, descended from Ismael Jan Kot Al-yahudi of Scheida, Morocco. Sons of this prominent family founded three villages that still exist near Timbuktu -- Kirshamba, Haybomo, and Kongougara. In 1492, Askia Mohammad I came to power in the previously tolerant region of Timbuktu and decreed that Jews must convert to Islam or leave; Judaism became illegal in Mali, as it did in Catholic Spain that same year. This was based on the advice of Muhammad al-Maghili.
As the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526:
"In Garura there were some very rich Jews. The intervention of the preacher (Muhammid al-Maghili) of Tlemcen set up the pillage of their goods, and most of them have been killed by the population. This event took place during the same year when the Jews had been expelled from Spain and Sicily by the Catholic King."
Leo Africanus further wrote:
"The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods."

Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour, with his brother Yitzhaq, came from Morocco in 1859 to be a trader in Timbuktu. At the time of Rabbi Serour's bold enterprise, direct trade relations with the interior of west Africa (then known to them as Sudan) were monopolized by Muslim merchants. Non-Muslims were precluded from this trade because Arab merchants were determined to forestall encroachments upon their lucrative business.




Rabbi Mordechai Aby Serour circa 1870s - 1880s. Last Rabbi of Timbuktu.




Former Timbuktu house and synagogue of Rabbi Mordechai Aby Serour used circa 1870's - 1880's.


__________________________________


Energy i was making a point,SO I WAS NOT REALLY TALKING TO YOU ABOUT THIS.I do not believe the the early rulers of the songhay,ghana kingdom or early sudanese rulers were hebrew or jewish or arab.
Has for Wangara they are mande.I JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT POINT CLEAR.

Yes there were jews in africa,but were most hebrew? and i do believe a large number were not OR MOST WERE NOT,plus they were not large in number.


quote-


Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used. Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion; those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent); and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion.


I know this is a senstive topic that's why i was going to ignore this topic.

My last point on this.


Energy another thing there is a difference,you could be a jew,but are you really hebrew?hebrew is a ethnic group.There are hebrews that are not jewish or do not believe in their own faith just like they are arabs that are not muslim.


ANOTHER thing telling blacks to forget about egypt,mande,akan or OTHER african cultures/groups is just non-sense and it's not going to work,that's my other point Energy.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
The authors of the bible were liars and they lied about alot of the populations that crossed them. Instead of doing it like men, and battling it out, the authors of the bible, being a relatively powerless fringe sect of their society, took revenge by taking to their pens and fabricating lies about the populations they hated, or even their own hated rulers. They fabricated the story of Esau to get back at the Edomites, they fabricated the story of the curse of Cham to get back at the Canaanites, they fabricated the story of Lot's incestous relationship with his daughters to get back at the Moabites and the Ammonites.

They took lying to a whole nother level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
The authors of the bible were liars and they lied about alot of the populations that crossed them. Instead of doing it like men, and battling it out, the authors of the bible, being a relatively powerless fringe sect of their society, took revenge by taking to their pens and fabricating lies about the populations they hated, or even their own hated rulers. They fabricated the story of Esau to get back at the Edomites, they fabricated the story of the curse of Cham to get back at the Canaanites, they fabricated the story of Lot's incestous relationship with his daughters to get back at the Moabites and the Ammonites.

They took lying to a whole nother level.

---

I don't know you IQ level but so far you are not doing very well. I am beginning to wonder whether you even understand the topic under discussion. FYI this debate is not about the authenticity of the information in the Bible. Heck this debate is not about the Bible at all. The conversation is about the Hebrews as an ethnic group. Do you understand the difference?

We are talking about the Hebrew people and the fact that the people of the former Slave Coast carry the name Hebrew as well as their oral history and traditions support the fact they are the direct descendants of the Hebrews in The Bible. This means most Caribbean and African-Americans are Hebrews since most of the slaves to the Americas came from the Slave Coast. Have you got anything to add to that and leave your hatred of the Bible outside where it belongs?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Understood Kenndo, and I was making reference to the possibility of Buddhist present in Meroe not Islamist as reported by a certain Greek named Philostratus.

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Understood.

That was my mistake,i edited my reply.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Slave Coast is the name of the coastal areas of present Togo, Benin and western Nigeria, a fertile region of coastal Western Africa along the Bight of Benin. Most slaves in the United States came from the Senegambian region --not slave coast. These slaves were mainly Yoruba, Akan and etc..

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Slave Coast is the name of the coastal areas of present Togo, Benin and western Nigeria, a fertile region of coastal Western Africa along the Bight of Benin. Most slaves in the United States came from the Senegambian region --not slave coast. These slaves were mainly Yoruba, Akan and etc..

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Very few Akans were slaves Clyde. The Akans ruled their neighbours and sold them into slavery. For example the Akwamu a branch of the Akans ruled a large sway of Eweland (pronounced Erverhland) and the people were their slaves and subjects.

One undeniable fact with slaves is they end up adopting the names and language of their masters. In time it is difficult to differentiate between master and slave if they look the same. What separates them for anyone to know who-is-who is their history. Thus you may have slaves in the Americas with Akan names but that does not mean they are Akans. And the history shows that Akans enslaved the Ewes (Erverhs) and everybody else. Thus to say Akans were slaves you have to show who enslaved them. Certainly not the Erverhs. And that is a fact.

We even have Portuguese records that testify Akans BOUGHT slaves from the Slave Coast from the Portuguese to use as farm hands. Thus, to claim Caribbean and African-American are Akan slaves would need PROVING and you will find very few Akan history books would support your supposition.

It is amusing to hear Caribbean and African-Americans claim Ashanti ancestry. The Ashantis are Akans. Ashantis were the main Slave traders in West Africa. They went to war simply to capture their fellow blacks and sell them into slavery. For African-Americans and Caribbean to say they are Ashanti, they have to explain who sold the Ashanti into slavery. You will find no such history exist. One or two Ashanti prisoners of war would have ended up in slavery, but to claim blacks in the Americas came from Akans means millions of Akans would have been captured and sold into slavery. That simply did not happen.

With regard to the Yoruba. They are part of the Ewe (Everhs). The name Ewe and Yoruba are names coined by Europeans. Thus, they are new or recent names. Before the advent of the Europeans in West Africans affairs, the people of the former Slaves Coast (which Yoruba is part of) were simply known as ERVERH.

With regard to the slaves from SeneGambian region. You need to understand how far the Ewe (Erverhs) were spread across West Africa. Our oral history says we were the masters of the Songhai empire. This claim is corroborated by ancient Arab writing of Mohammed Bello and other Arab scholars. In fact the whole Fulani Jihad that fed the slave trade was the Fulanis wars to free their lands of the Ewe (Erverh). Thus, Mohammed Bello and others testify the people they the Fulani sold into slavery were their enemies which were mainly Ewe (Erverh).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
The authors of the bible were liars and they lied about alot of the populations that crossed them. Instead of doing it like men, and battling it out, the authors of the bible, being a relatively powerless fringe sect of their society, took revenge by taking to their pens and fabricating lies about the populations they hated, or even their own hated rulers. They fabricated the story of Esau to get back at the Edomites, they fabricated the story of the curse of Cham to get back at the Canaanites, they fabricated the story of Lot's incestous relationship with his daughters to get back at the Moabites and the Ammonites.

They took lying to a whole nother level.

---

I don't know you IQ level but so far you are not doing very well. I am beginning to wonder whether you even understand the topic under discussion. FYI this debate is not about the authenticity of the information in the Bible. Heck this debate is not about the Bible at all. The conversation is about the Hebrews as an ethnic group. Do you understand the difference?

We are talking about the Hebrew people and the fact that the people of the former Slave Coast carry the name Hebrew as well as their oral history and traditions support the fact they are the direct descendants of the Hebrews in The Bible. This means most Caribbean and African-Americans are Hebrews since most of the slaves to the Americas came from the Slave Coast. Have you got anything to add to that and leave your hatred of the Bible outside where it belongs?

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LOL, how do you go from desperately wanting to see evidence of the biblical authors being liars, to angrily accusing me of having low IQ, and not sticking to the topic?

Must've hit a sensitive chord there.

Also, your topic was a cry baby call to all ES members to stop discussing Egypt related matters, and to embrace the their Hebrew ancestry. How that fits with my initial post?

Since a lot of the bible is stolen, fabricated and based on lies, there is no Hebrew ancestry to acknowledge, and there is no Egypt to get mad at, for a slavery that never occurred.

My posts are perfectly on topic, stop crying.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
questions for Energy:

1) Is it right to assume that Israel is your spiritual homeland and origin regardless of who's there now?

2) what about Ben Ammi Ben-Israel?
(spiritual leader of the African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem, a group that developed in Chicago, Illinois among the African-American community. Claiming to be a lost tribe of Israel, most of its members have lived in Dimona, Israel since the late 1960s.)
Is he and his followers real Hebrews?

3) what kind of approximate proportion of Africans who live in Africa do you believe are of the Hebrew race? Most, some or a small amount ?

4) what kind of approximate proportion of Africans who live in America do you believe are of the Hebrew race?
Most, some or a small amount ?

5) do you believe some native Americans are of the Hebrew race?


thanks, lioness
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Nyam to eat
koo to look as in koo-deh look there


Male
Female
Sunday Kwesi Quashie Quasheba
Monday Kwadwo/Kojo Cudjoe/Kujo Juba
Tuesday Kwabena Bene Cobena
Wednesday Kweku Quaco Cooba
Thursday Kwau Quaw Aba
Friday Kofi Cuffe Fiba
Saturday Kwame Quamin Mimba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFhFADkIY8
Names common to both Jamaican and Akans

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quote:

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Originally posted by Energy:
Come on Brada, why bother responding? Didn't you notice the guy did not say anything of substance worth responding to? You should simply have IGNORED him. This is an intellectual debate where people deal with facts, not opinions. Did you see kendo offering any intellectual argument as to why people who are called Erverh in Africa can not be Erverh? He did not because he can't. Read his post again, all he has said is express his EMOTIONS. Peoples' history are not based on FEELINGS. They are based on cold hard FACTS. And that is completely missing in whatever Kendo had to say. To take him seriously, he has to come up with arguments to refute how the Erverh people of the Slave Coast can not be who I say they are. So far, I haven't see anything remotely close to that line of approach in his post.

As for Jari or whatever his name is; the less said about him the better. The fact that there are Black people called Erverh seem to drive him out of his mind with anger. Again read his posts. All he has resorted to are personal insults on myself and shout about what terrible people the Hebrews were. Which led me to ask him; "And so what? Does the fact that my father being a certain way stop him being my father?" I doubt if he even understood the question I put to him. The guy is a DUNCE.

Remember we are discussing millions of real people in West Africa and no amount of emotional drivel is going to change the fact of who they are.

These people Kendo and Jari are simply wearing their emotions on their sleeves and spewing pure drivel. Nothing anyone says will convince them, because they have already made up their minds before looking at the evidence. So why bother? The thought of black people being the REAL Hebrews whose writings created civilization as we know it today, drives them mad with anger.

Those two don't belong to this debate. IGNORE them and hopefully they will get the message and move on.

The following is who we are in West Africa. Our EXODUS festivals celebrate our history. Similar festivals are celebrated by our people annually all over West Africa. Thus no amount of huffing and puffing from Jari and co will change an IOTA of our history and culture

ANLO CELEBRATING HOGBETSOTSO (EXODUS) FESTIVAL IN SOUTH EASTERN GHANA

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Originally posted by asante:
How are you gonna say that there were very few akan slaves that went to Jamaica and America? Most of all the slave revolts in the Americas were done by the akan, the maroons still speak and practice the akan language and culture.

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Originally posted by asante:
but the ewe people claim to be from the imaginary land of mu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUDrLCB0wQk

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Originally posted by Energy:

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Originally posted by asante:
How are you gonna say that there were very few akan slaves that went to Jamaica and America? Most of all the slave revolts in the Americas were done by the akan, the maroons still speak and practice the akan language and culture.

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Asante this is an open discussion therefore, we are are here to learn from each other. If you have any evidence that Akans were slaves I will dearly love to hear it. Heck it will give me some ammunition to rub my Akan friends faces in the mud anytime this topic comes up in our local discussions.

All I am asking for is this history that says so and so Africans were masters of the Akans and sold them into slavery. That is not too much to ask; is it? If you say the Akans were slaves, just tell me who enslaved them. That is all I am asking.

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Originally posted by Swenet:

The authors of the bible were liars and they lied about alot of the populations that crossed them. Instead of doing it like men, and battling it out, the authors of the bible, being a relatively powerless fringe sect of their society, took revenge by taking to their pens and fabricating lies about the populations they hated, or even their own hated rulers. They fabricated the story of Esau to get back at the Edomites, they fabricated the story of the curse of Cham to get back at the Canaanites, they fabricated the story of Lot's incestous relationship with his daughters to get back at the Moabites and the Ammonites.

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
They were slaves to each other,for there was constant civil wars amongst the clans why was there an Ashanti and Fanti federation war. P.O.Ws or captives got sent to the coast there were also wars between the Ga and Ashanti, and so on.

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Originally posted by the lioness:
Energy I have been asking reasonable questions about our Hebrew origins, not syaing you're wrong or a liar people like the other people
I assume you're not certain about some of my questions, or that it's secret?

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Originally posted by the lioness:
questions for Energy:

1) Is it right to assume that Israel is your spiritual homeland and origin regardless of who's there now?

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2) what about Ben Ammi Ben-Israel?
(spiritual leader of the African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem, a group that developed in Chicago, Illinois among the African-American community. Claiming to be a lost tribe of Israel, most of its members have lived in Dimona, Israel since the late 1960s.)
Is he and his followers real Hebrews?

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3) what kind of approximate proportion of Africans who live in Africa do you believe are of the Hebrew race? Most, some or a small amount ?

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4) what kind of approximate proportion of Africans who live in America do you believe are of the Hebrew race?
Most, some or a small amount ?

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5) do you believe some native Americans are of the Hebrew race?

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Originally posted by cassiterides:
Physical Descriptions of King David of Israel:

''So he sent and made him come in. Now he had red hair and beautiful eyes and pleasing looks. And the Lord said, Come, put the oil on him, for this is he.''
- 1 Samuel 16:12

And when the Philistine, taking note, saw David, he had a poor opinion of him: for he was only a boy, red-haired and good-looking

- 1 Samuel 14:42

Negroids don't have red hair, only white people do. The Israelites were not black.

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Originally posted by cassiterides:
Physical Descriptions of King David of Israel:

''So he sent and made him come in. Now he had red hair and beautiful eyes and pleasing looks. And the Lord said, Come, put the oil on him, for this is he.''
- 1 Samuel 16:12 (BBE)

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Originally posted by cassiterides:

And when the Philistine, taking note, saw David, he had a poor opinion of him: for he was only a boy, red-haired and good-looking

- 1 Samuel 14:42 (BBE)

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Originally posted by Energy:
So how do you explain the fact we are called Hebrews. How do you explain how our history is the same as the exodus story in the Bible? How do you explain our culture and traditions are the same as that of the Hebrews in the Bible? How do you explain our suffering wherever you find us on this planet? A phenomena that is in line with Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26?. How do you explain that we are spread around the world as the Bible prophecy predicted? And how do you explain the fact the EVIDENCE says we are the walking talking Hebrews but WE ARE BLACK? [/QB]

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Originally posted by cassiterides:
Black people do not fufill any of the prophecies.

Shall we go through them?

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By all means. SHOOT!
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
The throne of David to be perpetuated forever ( II Sam. 7:13; I Chron. 22:10; Psa. 89:36; Jer. 33:17,20) -

''David will have a descendant sitting on the throne of Israel forever''

''his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun''

''I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Current_monarchies

There are 44 monarchies left in the world.

Here's the map -



Countries in blue have a monarchy.

All countries not shaded blue cannot be Israel as they don't have a monarchy.

A key marker of Israel and fufillment of Biblical prophecy is a monarchy - ''David will have a descendant sitting on the throne of Israel forever''.

Black Sub-Saharan Africans as you can see by the map don't have monarchies left.
 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
LOL! You said you wanted to go through the prophesies. So stop clowning.

Read again my post, which you challenged. I clearly mentioned Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26. Those are the scriptures that spell out the condition the Hebrews will find themselves in if they turned their back on God. What has what you are posted got to do with it? Where EXACTLY does the Bible say an identifier of the Hebrews is royalty? The Bible says very clearly they will be in a state of DEGRADATION.

Consider the following from Deuteronomy 28 and tell me if the slaves in America did not suffer these atrocities.

25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

Do you know any people that have all of the above continuously happening to them apart from black people?

Anyway with regard to David's line being on the throne forever. The Royal family still exists in West Africa. I know because I am part of it.

WHAT NEXT HAVE YOU GOT? BRING IT ON!
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

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Originally posted by asante:

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Originally posted by Energy:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Slave Coast is the name of the coastal areas of present Togo, Benin and western Nigeria, a fertile region of coastal Western Africa along the Bight of Benin. Most slaves in the United States came from the Senegambian region --not slave coast. These slaves were mainly Yoruba, Akan and etc..

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Very few Akans were slaves Clyde. The Akans ruled their neighbours and sold them into slavery. For example the Akwamu a branch of the Akans ruled a large sway of Eweland (pronounced Erverhland) and the people were their slaves and subjects.

One undeniable fact with slaves is they end up adopting the names and language of their masters. In time it is difficult to differentiate between master and slave if they look the same. What separates them for anyone to know who-is-who is their history. Thus you may have slaves in the Americas with Akan names but that does not mean they are Akans. And the history shows that Akans enslaved the Ewes (Erverhs) and everybody else. Thus to say Akans were slaves you have to show who enslaved them. Certainly not the Erverhs. And that is a fact.

We even have Portuguese records that testify Akans BOUGHT slaves from the Slave Coast from the Portuguese to use as farm hands. Thus, to claim Caribbean and African-American are Akan slaves would need PROVING and you will find very few Akan history books would support your supposition.

It is amusing to hear Caribbean and African-Americans claim Ashanti ancestry. The Ashantis are Akans. Ashantis were the main Slave traders in West Africa. They went to war simply to capture their fellow blacks and sell them into slavery. For African-Americans and Caribbean to say they are Ashanti, they have to explain who sold the Ashanti into slavery. You will find no such history exist. One or two Ashanti prisoners of war would have ended up in slavery, but to claim blacks in the Americas came from Akans means millions of Akans would have been captured and sold into slavery. That simply did not happen.

With regard to the Yoruba. They are part of the Ewe (Everhs). The name Ewe and Yoruba are names coined by Europeans. Thus, they are new or recent names. Before the advent of the Europeans in West Africans affairs, the people of the former Slaves Coast (which Yoruba is part of) were simply known as ERVERH.

With regard to the slaves from SeneGambian region. You need to understand how far the Ewe (Erverhs) were spread across West Africa. Our oral history says we were the masters of the Songhai empire. This claim is corroborated by ancient Arab writing of Mohammed Bello and other Arab scholars. In fact the whole Fulani Jihad that fed the slave trade was the Fulanis wars to free their lands of the Ewe (Erverh). Thus, Mohammed Bello and others testify the people they the Fulani sold into slavery were their enemies which were mainly Ewe (Erverh).

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How are you gonna say that there were very few akan slaves that went to Jamaica and America? Most of all the slave revolts in the Americas were done by the akan, the maroons still speak and practice the akan language and culture.

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Originally posted by Energy:
WHAT NEXT HAVE YOU GOT? BRING IT ON! [/QB]

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Originally posted by cassiterides:
Physical Descriptions of King David of Israel:

''So he sent and made him come in. Now he had red hair and beautiful eyes and pleasing looks. And the Lord said, Come, put the oil on him, for this is he.''
- 1 Samuel 16:12

And when the Philistine, taking note, saw David, he had a poor opinion of him: for he was only a boy, red-haired and good-looking

- 1 Samuel 14:42

Negroids don't have red hair, only white people do. The Israelites were not black.

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Negro please, people ain't impressed with your hot air. You talk big but have nothing to back it up. Les' see, exaactly how are these bible authors 'lying' as you say? show us some proofs as to these 'lies'.

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If the authors were a 'fringe sect' how come Moses is the most honored prophet in Jewish history, and is revered by most of today's Jewish people, and is honored even in Christianity and Islam? How then exactly is Moses 'fringe'? you are so full of crap.

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What would a punk ass like you know about 'battling it out'? You supposed to be gangsta?

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This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you."
-Deuteronomy 2:25

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^But of course, such scriptures wouldn't constitute propagandic fabrications/lies, used inflate the ego's of the members of this sect, would they? Of course not.

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So you are saying thing then than the hebrews didnt 'battle it out' or moses didn't 'battle it out' with various enemies? On what basis do you come up with this crap claim?

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Again my 'gangsta', all we hear is your crapulent hot air. where is your evidence? who were these hated rulers they 'fabricated' against, and show proofs of these 'fabrications'

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hey fabricated the story of Esau to get back at the Edomites' ]
How so my 'gangsta', where is your proof? what parts are fabricated and what true? show the fabrications by biblical text, rabinnical text and archaeology

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they fabricated the story of the curse of Cham' ]
Puhleeze. can you demonstrate where moses made this curse on 'cham?' show moses saying this curse.

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'they fabricated the story of Lot's incestous relationship with his daughters to get back at the Moabites and the Ammonites.']
damn you are dumb. you keep talking about these fabrications, but let's see your evidence, not opinion. opinion don't count. Put up or shut up.

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You keep claiming all this lying and fabrication yet when called on your BS you punk out. Where are the textual criticisms andhistorians that can back up what you believe?

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This is one of the stupidest explanations. Edomintes, Moabites etc don;t have to exist as anything 'official' for them to be recognized by the Hebrews as tribal enemies.

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you are ducking my question, which is about par for the course for you. Again, if it were such a 'fringe' sect how come Moses is the most honored prophet in Jewish history, and is revered by most of today's Jewish people, and is honored even in Christianity and Islam?

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How then exactly is Moses 'fringe'?

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Every national leader exhorts the troops, whether it is by religion or by charisma.

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This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you."
-Deuteronomy 2:25

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So what? this is nothing unusual with other people. In Socrates time a bunch of the leading philosophers complained about how they were disregarded, and the waywardness of the youth, etc. in Roman time, the priests of various temples blamed impiety for defeats, not paying due homage to the gods etc. None of that is anything unusual.

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ha ha nice try.... are you serious? Read the history of Assyria, where enemies were cursed, the gods invoked against them etc, how opponents were condemned as weak or treacherous and deserved to be wiped ut etc.. Read the history of Rome and see what they said against Carthage. Then read what happened to the opponents of Assyria and Rome. You are trying to create all this big drama against the bible,

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You simply have let the self generated drama blind you. Dig it. THe bible authors did not have to be physically around. They reported on persons and groups in the past. Can't you grasp this simple, basic fact? Everyone knows Moses wrote his books after events that had long taken place, reporting on what had gone before. If Abraham encountered the king of Sodom, then that was what moses wrote about. He did not have a tine machine to be 'around' at that time. You cannot even grasp such basics in your self-generated fury ar judaism and christianity.

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Such works as the well know MacArthur's Quick Reference Guide to the Bible, and Battle for the Beginning by John Macarthur offers several historical and textual proofs. What I don't see is you providing anything but hot air to back up your claims.

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You do not even know what you are talking about, nor are you familiar with routine bible texts. Moab and Ammon are not direct descendants of Terah, nor is Israel, nor are the Midianites. . Nor are Ishmaelites. Aside from this elementary error you make,

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Originally posted by Swenet:
I don’t need to prove that the people West (Israelites), East (Ammonites and Moabites), and South (Edomites) of the Jordan river, Southwest of Judah (Midianites) and Southeast of Judah (Ishmaelites) didn’t originate from a single Mesopotamian man who lived ~2000bc (Terah).

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there is no rule saying that other groups did not take up the tribal names above as part of an extended clan system. Several groups could call themselves "Ishmaelites" for example though having only distant links.

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Of course there is a rule saying that other groups did not take up such tribal names. That rule is the biblical authors’ own explicit admission that the world was repopulated anew from ~2500bc. In the view of the biblical authors, in the time of Abraham, there were no populations other than those mentioned in table of nations, dummy. When the biblical authors discussed nearby populations in Abrahams time, such incipient groups are listed as ’’descendants of Esau’’, ’’descendants of Lot’’, which further refutes your silly notion of ’’there is no rule saying other groups didn’t assimilate’’.

Back to the point of all of this; since the Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites and Israelites were not recent offshoots of a Mesopotamian man that lived ~4000 years ago, the patriarchs of each of those populations couldn’t have been one big family, and hence, the Hebrews couldn’t have been aware of intimate Ammonite/Moabite/Edomite patriarchic history, unless they fabricated it.

The curse of Canaan is another example of history that magically made its way to the memory of biblical authors, but not to the memory of other, surrounding populations, with much more ancient and elaborate traditions of ethnography/writing. Of course, the fact that they hated those populations, and thus, had motives for fabricating such events, has nothing to do with it, right?

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and the same Christianity you condemn now will stand as a judgment against you in a day to come. It is only a matter of time.

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Isn’t that an eye for an eye? That’s a very Christian thing to say.

 

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Posted by Energy (Member # 16438) on :
 
One question Swenet, if the exodus story is a hoax as you claim, where did our ancestors get it to pass down to us? Look at the image below. Those people are celebrating their EXODUS history passed down the generations. Are all those millions lying and your Finkelstein (who was not even an eye-witness and just expressing an opinion) the only one telling the truth?

ANLO CELEBRATING HOGBETSOTSO (EXODUS) FESTIVAL IN SOUTH EASTERN GHANA
[/qb][/QUOTE]
 

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Posted by Fruity Reed (Member # 15917) on :
 
.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Energy:


ANLO CELEBRATING HOGBETSOTSO (EXODUS) FESTIVAL IN SOUTH EASTERN GHANA
[/qb]

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Originally posted by Energy:
cassiterides quick reply.

Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 clearly tells of Israel's condition if they fall away from God's grace. They will be scattered around the world and suffer many tribulations.

Just as the prophesy stated the Israelites fell away from true worship and God visited upon them the Assyrians and the Babylonians who drove them from their homes and the Hebrews lost their lands and are scattered around the world. The prophecies continue as we speak because the scriptures tell us the suffering will continue until they are gathered back as God's people.

Are you going to address that and stop fooling around?

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LOL. Your entire 'identity' is based on the fallacious idea somehow black people suffer (when they never have)...

same old race card...



Can you explain how black people suffer, or ever have?
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Energy is a Fring liar and propagandist who plays the victim mentality n order to claim to be a Hebrew, his whole argument rests on Deut 28:68..

I totally dismantled this argument here..

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005416;p=1#000000

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28:68 Into Egypt - Which was literally fulfilled under Titus, when multitudes of them were carried thither in ships, and sold for slaves. And this expression seems to mind them of that time when they went over the sea without ships, God miraculously drying up the sea before them, which now they would have occasion sadly to remember. By the way - Or, to the way. And the way seems not to be meant here of the usual road - way from Canaan to Egypt, which was wholly by land, but to be put for the end of the way or journey, even the land of Egypt, for to this, and not to the road - way between Canaan and Egypt, agree the words here following, whereof I speak unto thee, thou shalt see it, (that is, Egypt) no more again. No man shall buy you - Either because the number of your captives shall be so great, that the market shall be glutted with you; or because you shall be so loathsome and contemptible that men shall not be willing to have you for slaves. And this was the condition of the Jews after the destruction of Jerusalem, as Josephus the Jew hath left upon record. Let us all learn hence, to stand in awe and not to sin. I have heard of a wicked man (says Mr. Henry) who on reading these threatenings, was so enraged, that he tore the leaf out of his bible. But to what purpose is it, to deface a copy, while the original remains unchangeable? By which it is determined, that the wages of sin is death: yea, a death more dreadful than all that is here spoken!

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There were several movings of them into Egypt after that time; an Heathen historian F23 tells us, that not a few thousands of Jews went into Egypt and Phoenicia, because of the sedition in Syria after the death of Alexander; and where, it seems, in process of time, they became slaves: for we are told by Josephus F24, that 120,000 slaves were set free by Ptolemy Philadelphus; but what is chiefly respected here is their case in the times of the Romans, and by their means. Now when Jerusalem was taken by Titus, those above seventeen years of age were sent by him to the works, or mines, in Egypt, as the same historian relates F25; and after their last overthrow by Adrian many thousands were sold, and what could not be sold were transported into Egypt, and perished by "shipwreck", or famine, or were slaughtered by the people F26 whereby this prophecy was literally and exactly fulfilled, and which is owned by the Jews themselves. Manasseh Ben Israel F1 observes, that though Vespasian banished the Jews into various countries, Egypt is only mentioned by way of reproach, as if it had been said, ye shall go captives into the land from which ye went out triumphant:

here are the references...


F23 Hecataeus apud Joseph. contr. Apion, l. 1. sect. 22.
F24 Antiqu. l. 12. c. 2. sect. 1.
F25 De Bello Jud. l. 6. c. 9. sect. 2.
F26 Hieron. in Zech. ii. fol. 120. I.
F1 De Termino Vitae, l. 3. sect. 3. p. 131, 132.
F2 De excidio Urb. Hieros. l. 5. c. 47. p. 645.
F3 Ib. p. 680.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/deuteronomy-28-68.html#z

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Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

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“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

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France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

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Originally posted by Energy:
I clearly mentioned Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26.

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