This is topic OVER PAINTS in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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[Nicolaes van der Meer]

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[Cornelia Vooght]


http://www.franshalsmuseum.nl/collectie/bekijk/42/ajax

17th Century Frans Hals portraits of Nicolaas van der Meer and his wife Cornelia Voogt were discovered to be over paints, over other portraits. Face and hands showed the use of prussian blue which was in common use only after 1720.

The over paints were done on the varnish layer. So they form a seperate layer over the original painting. They could thus be removed.

The Mauritshuis catalogue speaks about portraits with a full brown portrait underneath, but does not know the meaning of this.

Many Dutch portraits on view show a dark brown under painting, as if the original brown complexion was over painted with a pink layer, but still leaving room for the older traits to show through. The hair shows added blond strands added to give the person a fairer aspect. There are others which have a thick pink covering, defacing the portrait, as if done under duress.

Apparently, next to the portraits which were whitened at the conception, there are portraits that show the true dark complexions, which signaled nobility. These were whitened later. Perhaps as late as 1933-45 when Hitler and his scientist 'aryanlized' European history. It's hard to tell, due to his impressionistic style, but many Rembrandt's look like overpaints. Some very crudely done.

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[Constantijn Huygens by Michiel van Mierevelt]

This seemed like a over paint to me as I stood for half an hour on a chair to study it at the Huygens Museum.

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[A copy of a portrait by Mierevelt of Grotius]

Some Dutch portraits are known only as copies, the family never making the original public. In case: a Mierevelt portrait of Hugo Grotius.


http://collectie.museumrotterdam.nl/objecten/10521-A

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[Alida van Overschie, Grotius' mother, by Miervelt (1619), probably another overpaint]

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[Maurits Huygens, brother of Constantijn Huygens by Rembrandt: shows why his brother's portrait is of interest and why the Huygens Museum refuses to exhibit this portrait along with the rest of the family.]
 
Posted by kikuyu22 (Member # 19561) on :
 
Egmond,in your research do you tell the Ice People your true intentions to discover black European nobility or are you forced to be circumspect?
How do they respond ,generally?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


Grisaille


Grisaille is a classical oil painting technique in which and underpainting in grey or brown is made as a first stage to establish light and dark areas of the painting.
The grisaille layer is then allowed to dry and thin trasparent layers of colors (called glazes) are built up over it in stages, drying between each stage. The naked eye is unable to see the separation of the layers including the grisaille because each layer is directly on top of the previous layer. Some of thes layers can only be seen with x-ray photography techniques.

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.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kikuyu22:
Egmond,in your research do you tell the Ice People your true intentions to discover black European nobility or are you forced to be circumspect?
How do they respond ,generally?

The people who have ownership over these over paints have themselves conceded that they are over paints and not the normal using of a dark underpaint. They have discovered complete brown portraits. But white supremacy seems to keep them from digging further.

The Ice people as you call them are not te be bothered by my blue blood is black blood theory as it freaks them out.

Interestingly I had visited the Huygens Museum with my Ugandan friend, jet black, nilotic, and two Dutch ladies overthere were impressed with the Maurits Huygens painting, and wondered along with me why it is not shown at their museum. One said, she could see my point. Further contact with a person really in charge became hostile. At some bureau they keep records off all dutch painting I was cursed out by some fishwife.

So I stay clear.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
quote:
Originally posted by kikuyu22:
[qb] Egmond,in your research do you tell the Ice People your true intentions to discover black European nobility or are you forced to be circumspect?
How do they respond ,generally?

The people who have ownership over these over paints have themselves conceded that they are over paints and not the normal using of a dark underpaint. They have discovered complete brown portraits.
The technique is called grisaille.
A complete portait is made in one color, grey or brown. After it dries color is overpainted in trasparent layers.(Egmond has discovered oil painting technique)

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Egmond, look this!
Black boy

Family portrait with five people
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http://blog.daum.net/haewon-5/7392729
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^^

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Mulatto
Joao Fernandes Vieira (Faial [1], c. 1613 - Olinda, 1681) was one of the main Portuguese military leaders in the struggle for the expulsion of the Dutch in Pernambuco.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Fernandes_Vieira


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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Egmond, The black boy
is on the right
after the girl
difficult to see
must broaden
and adjust the brightness
the display
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
FAKE! [Mad]
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True Robin Hood [Smile]

A Young Archer by Govaert Flinck
This small, oval painting was
created in about 1640
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[Big Grin]

http://www.andrewgrahamdixon.com/archive/readArticle/382
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
The white dutch people who wrote about the unexplained over paints know about legitimate underpainting, and they are not afrocentrist.

That's why their research does not go any further to explain why a portrait was painted ON TOP OF THE VARNISH LAYER.

If it was a grisaille underpainting they would have said so. Brown was mentioned, a brown and complete portrait.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
The white dutch people who wrote about the unexplained over paints know about legitimate underpainting, and they are not afrocentrist.

That's why their research does not go any further to explain why a portrait was painted ON TOP OF THE VARNISH LAYER.

If it was a grisaille underpainting they would have said so. Brown was mentioned, a brown and complete portrait.

Where is brown mentioned? Not in your link:

_______________________________________________

Portrait of Nicolaes van der Meer Woutersz
Frans Hals (Antwerp ca 1582 - Haarlem 1666)
1631, panel, 128 x 100.5 cm

Nicolaes van der Meer and Cornelia Vooght Haarlem were a prominent couple. Van der Meer (ca. 1574-1637) was brewer, ships, more than once mayor and officer of the militia. In his role of captain, he was also portrayed by Frans Hals at the civic guard from 1616. The couple were portrayed in two separate paintings, which belong together. The wall on one portrait seemed to be walking on the other. Traditionally hangs the portrait of the man left and the right woman. Frans Hals painted in his long career, many of these pendant portraits of men and women.
With these two portraits is something strange going on. X-rays showed that the faces of Nicolaes Cornelia and other portraits are painted over. Why this happened is unknown. Perhaps the client does not or no longer satisfied with their portraits, perhaps, no subsequent owners (the portraits remained long in the family) to adjust the portraits.
The armorial bearings on both paintings are later additions, probably 19th century. The dye Prussian blue in the arms occurs, only came into general use after 1720. And a drawing the portrait of Cornelia Vooght, made ​​by Johan van Sprang in 1762 is not for the shield


________________________________________________


.


.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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[Medici]

This is one of the few brown complexioned oil paintings on the web: there should be many more, hidden away in family vaults.
A recent number of Hola! magazine showed aristocratic ladies posing in the family castle, and a lot of really dark looking ancestors on the walls. So there is more, not everybody succumbed to the preasure to whiten the ancestors, or the later generations just took them out of storage.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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New
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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Hogo Grotius and his wife, Maria Rijgersberg

Could not find his brother Willem de Groot (?) with great Ubangi lips. There are so many versions of Grotius' portrait, it's hard to tell what he might have looked like. But white he ain't.

I have offered the two Frans Hals over paints and I have also spoken about the catalogue of the Mauritshuis Museum in The Hague, mentioning 'over paint'yet the underpaint was a complete portrait. Not naming these portraits.
 
Posted by kikuyu22 (Member # 19561) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
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Hogo Grotius and his wife, Maria Rijgersberg

Could not find his brother Willem de Groot (?) with great Ubangi lips. There are so many versions of Grotius' portrait, it's hard to tell what he might have looked like. But white he ain't.

I have offered the two Frans Hals over paints and I have also spoken about the catalogue of the Mauritshuis Museum in The Hague, mentioning 'over paint'yet the underpaint was a complete portrait. Not naming these portraits.

Egmond,come on!! You know we live for your discoveries here on ES. Tell us,which other portraits have been whitened? What's the need of research if you don't reveal your conclusions?.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kikuyu22:
Egmond,come on!! You know we live for your discoveries here on ES. Tell us,which other portraits have been whitened? What's the need of research if you don't reveal your conclusions?. [/qb]

there is no need to ask such a question. Egmond teaches that prior to 1789 Europe was run by blacks. Black nobles commisioned all the artwork in this period. Therefore any artwork prior to 1789 that depicts white people in anything other than serfdom has been whitened. That's how you can tell. 1789
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kikuyu22:
quote:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
 -

Hogo Grotius and his wife, Maria Rijgersberg

Could not find his brother Willem de Groot (?) with great Ubangi lips. There are so many versions of Grotius' portrait, it's hard to tell what he might have looked like. But white he ain't.

I have offered the two Frans Hals over paints and I have also spoken about the catalogue of the Mauritshuis Museum in The Hague, mentioning 'over paint'yet the underpaint was a complete portrait. Not naming these portraits.

Egmond,come on!! You know we live for your discoveries here on ES. Tell us,which other portraits have been whitened? What's the need of research if you don't reveal your conclusions?.
whitened portraits:

an original portrait of a person described as black or brown of complexion, rendered as a white person

a copy of a portrait which shows the brown and black complexion, but copied in pink. Some portraits are described, we know they exist, but have never been seen by researchers. Some portraits are only know as copies, while the original has never been revealed.

an overpaint, where a pink face is painted on top of the brown and black face, on top of the original varnish.

Charles II Stuart was called The Black Boy, and described as a tall black man: any portrait which shows a white man is a whitened portrait. The use today is revisionist, to hide there was a black noble elite.

This theory is all mine, because I'm the only person in the whole world who compares portraits with descriptions.

Over paints can be very cleverly done, they look like the white face was there from the beginning. Others are very crude, a defacement really, with a thick opaque pink layer.

That families would deface price-less portraits shows there was pressure to conform to some new order. The same goes for portraits which are not shown to outsiders: what keeps owners from showing their priceless art works by famous painters?

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The beheading of van Oldenbarnevelt: in the left corner there is Hugo Grotius (De groot) looking very dark and prognasthic

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Van Oldenbarneveldt by Miereveldt: over paint?
I had this idea that van Miereveldt painted his customers as they were: brown and black of complexion. So the originals we are shown today are overpaints.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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Susanna Hoefnagel by Van Mierevelt: mother of Constantijn and Maurice Huygens

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Maurits Huygens by Rembrandt

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Constantijn Huygens and his wife.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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[Pince Maurice of Orange, son and successor of William I of Orange]

At present an exhibition about Van Mierevelt.
I believe he painted his clients with their true brown and black complexion, so all the original portraits they show us, which look white; are over paints. After I looked at the catalogue, I saw amazing overpaints, like in the style of Vincent van Gogh, and no questions asked.

The portrait of Constantijn Huygens by Van Mierevelt shows a strange kind of wear, like the pastel overpaint is coming of. Perhaps a overpaint can be simply recognised as a face painted on top of the varnish layer.

These observations must be readily visible by anyone who examines these paintings, but because of revisionism, this is never mentioned.

The portrait of Hugo Grotius is only known as a copy, the original never revealed by its owner. Why? So portrets which proof my theory are still there, but kept hidden. Then if they exist whites can be brown skinned as well, why not show them?

The reason why there are many very different images showing the same person might have to do with patent rights, for depicting a person in a certain way. The images were somewhat imaginery, making not so hot looking people looking hot.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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Painter Liotard

Over paint?
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
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Overpaint?
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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


melanin value measure 3.20  -

melanin value measure 3.28  -
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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Maria van Reigersberg by Bailly, wife of Hugo Grotius.

Obviously a bad over paint, and she has an afro.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
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Willem van Tuyll van Bulkensteyn

Obviously a horrible over paint.
Images like these I call defaced, and shows there was pressure to amend these portraits. Sometimes the families themselves wielded a brush, ending in results like this, because a proper over paint would cost a lot of money.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=006387#000003

Everybody who discusses paintings should read this info.

It's estimated that there is only 20% left of all the portraits made during the Golden Age of Holland.
I can imagine why some portraits were distroyed. No firm facts for now. I once read that Jo(h)an Raye had all his family portraits destroyed. Why?

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=Anthonis+Mor+van+Dashorst+-&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=12708l12708l0l13748l1l1l0l0l0l0l69l69l1l1l0&gs_l=serp.3...12708l12708l0l13748l1l1l0l0l0l0l69l69l1l1l0 &bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=994&bih=569&ix=sea&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=FcNPT4nlL4vu-gaoscS6Bg

Paintings by Anthonie Mor
According to a Mauritshuis catalogue they have a detailed brownish under painting. I suppose this is a true portrait of the brown and black complexioned elite.

catalogue: page 332http://www.kunstboekwinkel.nl/kunstboeken/detail/1400_1600_renaissance/portraits_in_the_mauritshuis_1430_1790.html

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X-ray

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William I of Orange
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Egmond
I think alessandro medici
was a mulatto.
Do you think his family was
all black?
Should have some white.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
Egmond
I think alessandro medici
was a mulatto.
Do you think his family was
all black?
Should have some white.

Egmond passa a regra de uma gota. Se a pessoa tem a menor quantidade de preto em que eles são negros, em vez de mulato
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
I'm doing
this question because
I'm trying to be as realistic as possible
I'm running away from distortions
Entrusca was predominantly black
After the whites came
then one can not say that Rome was predominantly black
may be that there was a white king
or queen.
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
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Maria van Reigersberg by Bailly, wife of Hugo Grotius.

Obviously a bad over paint, and she has an afro.

if background of a picture is so dark that you can't even see the hair, if you concentrate you can see the afro (or whatever type of hair you choose to imagine)


However if you have a good quality picture you can see what's really going on befoer the lights were dimmed

Maria van Reigersberg

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
we have
analyze the racial composition of each kingdom
and see also demographics: where are the whites
and where are the black
example in the Empire binzantino
How was the relationship of whites with blacks?
The whites with their culture of central asia
must have been
segregated to assimilate the culture of blacks
I think they are the "witches"
we see in movies.
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Egmond what you
think
of painting the archer?
Must be a famous archer? ^^^^
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
.Golden Age
.20%

I did not know.
So for sure
this picture (archer) is one of the
rare paintings that remain.

"Govert (or Govaert) Teuniszoon Flinck (January 25, 1615 – February 2, 1660) was a Dutch painter of the Dutch Golden Age."
 
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
THIS IS A BLACK WOMAN!
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Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
THIS IS A BLACK WOMAN!
 -

A gorgeous painting. They think he was using some lenses to achieve the blurred look of objects in front with the little, shiny light balls, considered something linked with viewing through a lenz.

I consider all Vermeers as over paints. He painted the elite with their brown or black skins. As you know anybody with Black ancestors, who show some signs of Blackness, are considered Black. I also look for signs of self-identification: as Black. These people would not be hired as newsreader for the Dutch televison today. The norm is blond, with blue eyes, especially as they are reporting on muslims trowing bombs, they must stare into the camera with their blue eyes so the whites understand that whiteness is under threat.

The Black elite was a very small minority, and the whites they made noble must have been even smaller. The whites in power during the Ancien Regime were like Kofi Annan, doing the white mans murderous bidding in Syria. He has a white wife, and his son was implicated in some oil scandal during the Iraq crises. These white nobles were part of the Black rule, not against. The opposition was the learned high bourgeoisie. They compared the Moor to an ape. The whites were to repressed to even think about freeing themselves, so the philosophers of the Enlightenment were Blacks as well.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
Egmond what you
think
of painting the archer?
Must be a famous archer? ^^^^

The archer symbolises blue blood, in two ways. As a Moor. And as an Archer, as the hunt was a great privilege for the nobility.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
we have
analyze the racial composition of each kingdom
and see also demographics: where are the whites
and where are the black
example in the Empire binzantino
How was the relationship of whites with blacks?
The whites with their culture of central asia
must have been
segregated to assimilate the culture of blacks
I think they are the "witches"
we see in movies.

I have defined the era 1100-1848 as reversed apartheid. anything you understand of white supremacy today, but in reverse. They have learned apartheid from the Black nobles.

As I'm setting out to change the world, I have formulated a theory as a weapon, but I find some less rational souls undercutting this with false claims about whites sharing power with Blacks. I have shown with many sources that the whites were shoe leather till 1848. How do superior people share power with shoe leather? Do whites share power with Blacks today? No, the blacks in high places are houseniggers. During South African apartheid Blacks were killed by Black policemen, by orders of white superiors.

I have made an comparison with the caste system of India. How will that ever change, as it's also linked to the religion.

There is so little erudition and rationality on this forum.

I have been reviewing all movies and tv series made about Jane Austen and her books. Very different from my own analyses. Some are amusing. The people in power do not like to see anything changed, so its all about romance, while she was an political activist and a lesbian.

http://www.essentialvermeer.com/lost_vermeer_self_portrait_baron_rolin/self-portrait_comparison.html


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The Procuress by Vermeer, self-portrait on the left: looking Black, the very Black looking, dark skinned woman in the middle.
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
Egmond
I think alessandro medici
was a mulatto.
Do you think his family was
all black?
Should have some white.

They could not be white, they might have been fair. They were a fixed, mulatto nation, intermarrying, who self-identified as Black and saw the whites as their shoe leather: hardly human. Still one takes care of ones cattle, no?

Will go home and make pizza. Dough ready in the fridge, will de-stone black olives, cut up roasted pepper, and add salted anshovy. Two cheeses.

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
I can not just believe
someone says "europe was ruled by blacks until the 19th century"
I can not believe without proof
Proofs Is necessary!
 
Posted by Egmond Codfried (Member # 15683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
I can not just believe
someone says "europe was ruled by blacks until the 19th century"
I can not believe without proof
Proofs Is necessary!

What, do you not like my pizza?

It took about 30 minutes before I could eat. It came out beautiful with less grease then usual. I ate half and slept like a log till 23.05, in time to catch the radio news program till 24.00. Next I was sleepless and started sorting out my papers. Plan to make a third part edition of my letters and small articles, in a serie named The Vijand van de Neeger. In this way I get rid of all scraps of papers I have floating around. Even interesting post by others will be included, so later generations can find out who I was. I found that the Royal Library did not catalogue part two, although mentioned in my list of publications, and not available for the public. Set out to correct this.
 


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