I have been paying no attention to the news. Just watched the BBC news.
Mali - Tuareg rebels want their own nation.
The Mali military, supposedly unhappy with the presidents handling of the crisis - stage a coup.
The west African nations impose sanctions on Mali.
The Tuareg rebels use this as an opportunity to lay siege to Timbuktu.
The problem?
The Tuareg leader that I saw was a TURK!!!!!!!
The president of Niger says that he is very worried that these FUNDAMENTALIST will be at his border.
(You DO know what he means by "FUNDAMENTALIST")
Surely Africans could fuch-up a wet dream.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Welcome back MK, long time no see.
Bet it was the "WHITES: ENDEMIC TYR+ ALBINOIDS big deal" thread, that got the juices flowing again.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Actually my take is that this is spill over from Libya exacerbated by drought. This is something that has been brewing since the French who controlled most of North West Africa, and fought the Tuareg, divided up the map to create the countries that they did. Actually what is now called Mali was formerly called French Sudan.
Posted by MelaninKing (Member # 17444) on :
What's happening Mike.
Africans are fukked. They are the remnants of the Africans left behind, and completely clueless about their soon to be displaced futures.
I saw the thread (TYR+) but as you should realize, it's merely yet another example of whites telling half truths, and misinformation.
Mike, Albinism adversely affects brain chemistry as well as Melanin production. The inability to metabolize Tyrosine not only inhibits melanin production, but Dopamine as well. This is why whites/Jews NEED to consume Anti-depressants by the boatload to suppress (Lower) Serotonin to maintain balance between the two (Dopamine/Serotonin). Even still, like any electrical system dependent on a specific difference of potential within tight tolerances, once brought into balance, the dialectic levels of both are far below "Normal" parameters necessary to operate within acceptable specifications. the result: Insanity.
This is what Africans and the rest of the world are attempting to emulate. Abnormal thought behavior exhibited by defective MUTANOIDS.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The Kels already have their own nation. Their confederacy has lasted for centuries. The problem is no one acknowleges the Kel Confederacy and its seven sultanates whose land spans territory in the Euro colonialist carved nations of Mali, Algeria, Libya, and Niger.
All the aforenamed countries have a "Tuareg" problem. The Kels never accepted colonial rule and for them the Euro carved nations are bogus.
Mali for one will never give up the north and its strategic mineral resources and its non- Kel people look back to Songhai to legitimize their rights to the land even though Euros defined the boundaries of modern day Mali.
One solution could be for all the nations with a Kel emirate to accord official, if limited, recognition to the Kel Confederacy as a start toward negotiation. However, Kel cultural values may see verbal negotiation as inimical. They have for centuries relied on armed violence to settle land control disputes, both internally and externally.
Today's conflict is the latest in a continuing bid for dominance between Kels vs Mande & other non-Afrisan speakers documented over the last 1100 years.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Tukuler - I'm not doubting what you say.
I'm just asking how someone like this, got to be a Tuareg. BTW - the Tuareg leader that I saw looked just like him.
Titled on wiki "Tuareg from the Hoggar, Algeria"
Black world to Niggas in Africa - THAT'S A TURK!
Damn they're stupid! Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
A wave of Tuareg military victories is the direct result of instability following a March 21 coup, led by junior officers in the Malian Army. It’s an ironic fact, given that the junior officers who launched the coup did so because they felt the government of President Amadou Toumani Toure was not providing them with the funding, arms, or supplies to defend the country against a resurgent Tuareg rebellion in the north. Now, within the past few days, Tuareg rebels have taken the major garrison towns of Kidal, Gao, and now Timbuktu, raising concerns for Mali’s West African neighbors about the Army’s capacity to retain control of the country.
BAMAKO (Reuters) - Mali's junta leader appealed for outside help to secure the West African country on Friday as separatist Tuareg rebels took the strategic northern town of Kidal and advanced towards new targets further south.
Arms spilling out of Libya from last year's conflict have bolstered a northern rebellion in Mali. President Amadou Toumani Toure was facing rising unpopularity over his failure to halt the rebellion before he was toppled in last week's coup.
But the coup, if anything, has emboldened the rebels, while the coup leaders have been internationally condemned - including by neighbours which on Thursday gave them 72 hours to surrender power or see Mali's borders and bank funding shut off.
"Our army needs the help of Mali's friends to save the civilian population and Mali's territorial integrity," coup leader Captain Amadou Sanogo told reporters at the barracks outside the capital Bamako serving as the president's office.
The rebels, who began fighting for an independent north in January, have seized on the confusion to prepare offensives on the three regional centres in Mali's north. Among their number are Ansar Edine, an Islamist group with loose personal ties to local al Qaeda militants and which promotes sharia law.
The body representing nations in West Africa announced Monday that starting immediately they are closing the land borders with Mali. The landlocked nation of over 15 million imports nearly all its petroleum products from neighboring Ivory Coast, and economists say gas stations could run dry within weeks. The country's account at the regional central bank has also been frozen, meaning that the junta will struggle to pay the salaries of government employees, including the very soldiers whose loyalty they need to retain power.
The United States called on coup leaders in Mali on Friday to step down and allow for elections to take place.
U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner spoke one day after the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) gave the military junta that ousted Malian President Amadou Toumani Toure three days to hand back power to civilians or face "diplomatic and financial embargo."
Seems that no one actually cares if Mali is partitioned by foreign financed invasion. So long as it's a democratic nation when it's done to them. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
As Fela wrote: Head side down, nyash side up.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
The Taureg in Mali are comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds:
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs from Mali have been forced to flee into Mauritania due to fighting between rebel Tuareg groups and governmental forces. UNHCR is distributing food and relief items to the refugees, while water is being trucked in by the authorities. UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unrefugees.org/atf/cf/%257BD2F991C5-A4FB-4767-9 Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
I was in Timbuktu back in November and the guy showing me around was a tuareg, actually a black guy.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by claus3600: I was in Timbuktu back in November and the guy showing me around was a tuareg, actually a black guy.
I don't doubt that, and I wasn't suggesting that all Tuareg are now Turk mulattoes. But when you see Turk mulattoes in important or leadership positions, it does not bode well for Blacks.
In my own musings as to why (as a whole) Africans are so backward, I see their condition in Newton's first law "A body in motion tends to stay in motion, a body at rest tends to stay at rest".
At the dawn of man, Africans were very creative and innovative in taming their environment and providing for a comfortable existence for themselves. As time went on, nothing changed in nature or their environment, so there was never a need for them to change.
Societaly, in the larger kingdoms there was a ruling class and their relations, that we call nobles, and their part-time soldiers. After that everyone had their own plot of land (whither communally or privately and the ability to provide for themselves.
Enter the modern era and the imposition (by Europeans) of the segmented worker (slave?) society. Now people are grouped into political and social-economic segments, where each is no longer able to provide for themselves independently, but rather must depend upon trade amongst themselves (whither that trade be their labor or commodity) in order to provide for themselves. After many years of struggle, Africans are beginning to adjust to this new (for them) world order. And I abuse them to keep them moving.
However one thing that Africans (and apparently all original people) lack is the ability to understand the concept of "Race based allegiance". Certainly Africans understand "Prejudice". Not that long ago, a Somali demanded that I remove a person of Bantu heritage from a group of Somali.
But the best example of original people's innocence to "Racial" thinking is found in American history, and the journals of the explorers "Lewis and Clark".
They tell of an incident where they saw members of the tribe that they were visiting, running like hell toward them. They soon saw why, a rival tribe was attacking. How surprised and relieved they were, when the attackers ordered them to step aside, so that they could kill those dogs of the other tribe. The fact that they were strangers, and White, held no interest to the natives. Of course that "innocence" to "Racial" thinking, led to their ultimate extermination.
Another example of original people's innocence to "Racial" thinking is found with the Arabs; (you all know that I consider them the dumbest Niggers EVER! but for the sake of the narrative). After taking the middle east, they found that they lacked sufficient numbers to hold it, much less expand their conquered territories.
Their solution: Bring in White "Slave Soldiers - Mamluks" by the thousands, and then hundreds of thousands! He,he,he: Damn, how could niggers be THAT stupid? Anyway, as might be expected by "INTELLIGENT" people; The Whites (Mostly Turks), killed their dumb asses, and took over. A scenario that would repeat itself many times.
Out of that brew of divergent interest and race, arose the Turk mulatto. Not forgetting his Central Asian Albino roots, his first order of business was to marginalize and impoverish Blacks. And as we now see, North African Blacks STILL DON'T GET IT! Which leads be to believe that modern North African Blacks must really be Arabs - how else to explain the stupidity of letting Turks into your midst - LEADERS EVEN????
So now, just as southern Africans are beginning to join the modern era, here come the Turks to drive them back into antiquity and poverty.
Which brings up another curiosity: Is there some disease that strikes Africans just as they take-up leadership positions, which causes severe Brain malfunction??
How strange it is that this 64 year old "Jigga-Boo" saw nothing alarming about rebels with Turk leaders, over-running most of his country.
. While younger people like Captain Amadou Haye Sanogo were "Freaking-Out" and willing to do anything to stop them.
.
Stranger still, apparently the president of Niger, understands just how dire a threat it is to have Turk mulattoes in their midst; BUT HE DOES NOTHING!
President of Niger, Mahamadou Issoufou.
. The "Brain-Malfunction" disease has struck the rest of Mali's neighbors, and perhaps all of Africa's Black leaders. So who will save Mali?
Posted by kikuyu22 (Member # 19561) on :
This unfortunate episode reveals an issue common to nearly all Africa which IMO is at the heart of many of our problems-military weakness. Nigeria,the regional and continental giant for example has an airforce whose offensive sharp end consists of one flight of new f-7s,a fifty year old Chinese design.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by claus3600: I was in Timbuktu back in November and the guy showing me around was a tuareg, actually a black guy.
Toureg are mixed group. Some are the original Touregs i.e. the black ones and then the others are the sons and daughters of slaves and African fathers.
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Sad thing is that the Malian military has been penetrated and controlled by the Pentagon. Fact is that coup-maker Sanogo was trained by the U.S.
Point is that the Touareg revolt was aided by arms flowing into the Sahel as a result of NATO's inavasion and destruction of Libya with the aid of heavy-weaponed mercenaries from Benghazi and Qatar. Huge amounts of arms were provided by the West via NATO, Turkey and Qatar to destroy, and some of those arms flowed South.
Note the geography of the situation. Mali does not border Libya as Chad and Niger do.
The real meaning of all of this is that Africa has chosen to ignore what Nkrumah said many years ago. There is need for an African High Command. But the neocolonial fools in charge just don't know or understand the history of pre-colonial and colonial African history.
Sanogo was just not justified in staging a coup. He represents the Malian army. The army should have fought a counter-offensive against the Touaregs by quickly acquiring arms then going on the offensive. Instead he abnegated his duties and staged another one of those nonsense coups in Africa just so he could seize State House and make himself rich through theft. Nothing new there.
The chickens just came home to roost in thus instance. When NATO attacked Libya through its phony UN resolutions the AU instead of mustering up an army to repel the invaders just ran below the bed to hide. Just a pathetic ignorance of geopolitics and African-European colonial history.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Interesting point is that the Touaregs are nomads--a people hardly in need of a nation. Looks more like they want to corner the gold reserves in Northern Mali. There is good money in mining and selling to the rapacious Lebanese and Jews.
In my own musings as to why (as a whole) Africans are so backward, I see their condition in Newton's first law "A body in motion tends to stay in motion, a body at rest tends to stay at rest". At the dawn of man, Africans were very creative and innovative in taming their environment and providing for a comfortable existence for themselves. As time went on, nothing changed in nature or their environment, so there was never a need for them to change.
Humans develop their societies as far as the particular ecological basis will allow. Life in Africa has always been tough, since,in ecological terms, Africa was far more difficult to tame than Europe or Asia. There are various reasons as to why, despite man starting out in Africa, it lags developmentally. As I remember from my MA and reading John Reader's Africa:Biography of the Continent, problems included erratic rainfall patterns and drought; largely poor soils due to the stability of the ancient continental landmass/lack of volcanic activity linked to fertile soils; the fact that the continent is - uniquely - bisected by the equator, so proportionately more of the land mass has a tropical climate that allows pests (e.g. mosquitoes, tsetse flies) to breed year round and spread debilitating diseases (e.g. malaria, yellow fever, sleeping sickness - not to forget bilharzia in the rivers and lakes); from memory, comparatively more effort is required to clear African weeds; and marauding African fauna (e.g. elephants stealing crops) all put a brake on Africa's development. Tropical Africa's population growth rate, until the late/post-colonial era was relatively slow- the ecological factors listed above impacted on the ability of women to reproduce. (Reader does a continental/regional population growth comparison in Biography of the Continent, which, if accurate, shows the extent to which Africa's population growth was hampered compared to what was experienced in other parts of the world.) Without the necessary population growth, hands were tied to food production, meaning that there weren't enough individuals who could be freed up to spend time specialising in other areas. Of course, Kemet, Kush, Mali, etc were the exceptions.
@kikuyu
This unfortunate episode reveals an issue common to nearly all Africa which IMO is at the heart of many of our problems-military weakness.
Nigeria,the regional and continental giant for example has an airforce whose offensive sharp end consists of one flight of new f-7s,a fifty year old Chinese design.
Isn't this an issue that could be described as common to most countries in the world? Even European countries militarily punch below their weight - aside from relying on the Americans to take out Libya's air defence sites, they had to get the Americans to re-ssupply them with munitions once the campaign became prolonged.
Given Africa's economic realities, the military weakness of its individual states is not that surprising.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Claus3600,
One must be careful about what Euro authors like John Read write. Most of these authors are throughly racist in their explanations of the technological development of the African continent.
Reader speaks of poor solis in Africa. Essential nonsense. Africa is a huge continent and just a portion of it like the Congo or Angola has enough rich soil to grow anything that would supply the African continent and beyond.
Reader's comment on Africa's rainfall as being erratic is just nonsense. Traditionally there has always the rainy season and the dry season--which allowed the "growing season" and the "harvest season"--year in year out. Yams, rice an sorghum have always been produced in Africa. If Africans were not healthy and robust how come the whites eagerly sought them out as unwilling labourers for the Americas. And during colonial times who did all that heavy lifting but Africans themselves.
In terms of population, historian Rodney in "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" made the statistical observation that Africa's population was actually comparable to that of Europe before the full force of the Atlantic trade was unleashed.
Again, be careful of what you read. Caveat lector!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by claus3600: In my own musings as to why (as a whole) Africans are so backward, I see their condition in Newton's first law "A body in motion tends to stay in motion, a body at rest tends to stay at rest". At the dawn of man, Africans were very creative and innovative in taming their environment and providing for a comfortable existence for themselves. As time went on, nothing changed in nature or their environment, so there was never a need for them to change.
Humans develop their societies as far as the particular ecological basis will allow. Life in Africa has always been tough, since,in ecological terms, Africa was far more difficult to tame than Europe or Asia. There are various reasons as to why, despite man starting out in Africa, it lags developmentally. As I remember from my MA and reading John Reader's Africa:Biography of the Continent, problems included erratic rainfall patterns and drought; largely poor soils due to the stability of the ancient continental landmass/lack of volcanic activity linked to fertile soils; the fact that the continent is - uniquely - bisected by the equator, so proportionately more of the land mass has a tropical climate that allows pests (e.g. mosquitoes, tsetse flies) to breed year round and spread debilitating diseases (e.g. malaria, yellow fever, sleeping sickness - not to forget bilharzia in the rivers and lakes); from memory, comparatively more effort is required to clear African weeds; and marauding African fauna (e.g. elephants stealing crops) all put a brake on Africa's development. Tropical Africa's population growth rate, until the late/post-colonial era was relatively slow- the ecological factors listed above impacted on the ability of women to reproduce. (Reader does a continental/regional population growth comparison in Biography of the Continent, which, if accurate, shows the extent to which Africa's population growth was hampered compared to what was experienced in other parts of the world.) Without the necessary population growth, hands were tied to food production, meaning that there weren't enough individuals who could be freed up to spend time specialising in other areas. Of course, Kemet, Kush, Mali, etc were the exceptions.
@kikuyu
This unfortunate episode reveals an issue common to nearly all Africa which IMO is at the heart of many of our problems-military weakness.
Nigeria,the regional and continental giant for example has an airforce whose offensive sharp end consists of one flight of new f-7s,a fifty year old Chinese design.
Isn't this an issue that could be described as common to most countries in the world? Even European countries militarily punch below their weight - aside from relying on the Americans to take out Libya's air defence sites, they had to get the Americans to re-ssupply them with munitions once the campaign became prolonged.
Given Africa's economic realities, the military weakness of its individual states is not that surprising.
^Albino nonsense.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Africa as a continent has always been underpopulated relative to other continents. Europe is 1/8th the size of Africa and has almost the same size of population. America is 1/5th the size of Africa and has almost half the population.
That is part of it. The other part is the intentional underdevelopment by which European companies take out all the resources like food, water, electricity, tin, copper, aluminum and so forth to build up their own societies but turn right around and make up all sorts of gimmicks like the swing water pump as substitutes for actual infrastructure in Africa using the same resources. Or the current agricultural scams where most of the best land is used for crop export with all the modern technology and infrastructure to support it, while the worst land with no technology or infrastructure is used to feed Africans, almost guaranteeing continued hunger in various places every year. And the NGOs come in and offer token programs that do nothing but make them rich and leave Africans worse off, like tiny little hand pumps that break 2 months after the NGOs leave or little water spigots driven by solar power that you actually have to pay for in rural areas. What happened to water being free? What happened to the old fricking fashioned hand pump? Or the electricity NGO that is going around putting 2 light bulbs and a cell phone charger in huts or houses that uses a car battery that gets recharged as opposed to wiring up African towns to the electrical grid.... But at the same time all those foreign mining companies and plantations have plenty of electricity flowing from power plants that are purposely not tied to the national grid....
Energy "grid" based on rechargeable batteries: http://egg-energy.com/ (dont even think of refrigerators or any appliances here)
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
They are already spreading disinformation as another way to play up the need for Africom. The Tuareg are not "Gadaffis Mercenaries" There are millions of Tuareg spread all across Niger, Mali, Algeria, Libya, Mauretania and Morocco and most of them probably never had anything to do with Qadaffi. But to hear the Western media tell it, they are all Gadafi mercenaries.....
quote: When Libya's dictator for more than four decades fell victim to the Arab Spring, Col. Moammar Gadhafi's influence didn't end. It is now contributing to increased attacks by rebel groups, the arming of terrorists and a hunger crisis in other parts of Africa.
"This is a setback for the international community which has invested so much money in the past decade in democracy, peace, and security in Africa," said Dr. Mehari Taddele Maru at the Institute for Security Studies based in Pretoria, South Africa.
After Gadhafi's fall, thousands of his soldiers left the country with stockpiles of weapons, including machine guns, ammunition, and shoulder-fired missiles. Maru says at least 2,000 of them were mercenaries who returned to their native countries in sub-Saharan Africa, including Mali, Niger, Mauritania, and Nigeria. . Many have already returned to fighting.
In the West African country of Mali, when ethnic Taureg fighters returned from Libya well armed, it encouraged Taureg separatists to launch a new rebellion against the government in January. While Gadhafi's weapons were no match for the NATO forces that came to the rescue of Libyan revolutionaries, they were far superior to the weapons of the impoverished Malian army. A mutiny by Mali's out-gunned and frustrated soldiers turned into a coup d'etat when they stormed the Presidential Palace in March, erasing more than two decades of democratic rule.
In the chaos that has ensued after the coup, Taureg separatists in Mali have had more success than ever before. On Sunday they seized the last government holdout in the north, the legendary town of Timbuktu. There is now concern a Taureg victory in Mali could inspire another rebellion in neighboring Niger.
"The Tauregs in Niger got funding from Gadhafi. The government of Niger has been able to negotiate with them for peace, but for how long? That is questionable," said Maru.
Gadhafi's fighters and weapons also streamed into other nearby countries in the Sahel region bordering the Sahara desert. It is an area where a major Al-Qaeda affiliate has announced it acquired thousands of Gadhafi's weapons.
"We have been one of the main beneficiaries of the revolutions in the Arab world," Mokhtar Belmokhar, a leader of Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) told Mauritanian news agency ANI last November.
The proliferation of weapons in the Sahel comes at an especially bad time. After another year of drought in parts of Mali, Mauritania, Niger, Chad, and Burkina Faso, aid agencies say millions of people need urgent food assistance, but violence in the region makes it hard- in some places impossible- to help.
"Under these security conditions, we are not able to access the displaced who are living in extremely difficult conditions," said UNHCR spokeswoman Fatouma Lejeune-Kabu about trying to help those forced to flee their homes in northern Mali.
The U.N. estimates about 130,000 people in Mali have been displaced by the fighting between Taureg rebels and the government army.
Maru believes Gadhafi's weapons will spread farther in Africa. Gadhafi supported insurgencies in several African countries including Chad and Sudan. He also voiced support for Islamic separatists in northern Nigeria, and some analysts suspect he had been supporting Boko Haram Islamic militants.
"Those arms can circulate and come into the hands of anyone who can pay for them," Maru said.
The impact of Gadhafi's trained mercenaries and arsenal of weapons will likely be felt on the continent for years.
"Until such time as the root causes of rebel uprisings are addressed, such as marginalization by governments and socio-economic struggle, the demand for arms and rebel movements will continue," said Maru.
The mercenaries are the al-Qaeda forces backed by the United States that overthrew Libya and who are operating in parts of the Sahara supposedly. Ironically enough in precisely the same areas that are home to the Tuareg. I smell a new battleground for Al-Qaeda all created by the West and their intervention in Libya, just like the rise of Al-Qaeda in Somalia came after the Western backed invasions by Ethiopia....
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Originally posted by some fool: In my own musings as to why (as a whole) Africans are so backward, I see their condition in Newton's first law "A body in motion tends to stay in motion, a body at rest tends to stay at rest". At the dawn of man, Africans were very creative and innovative in taming their environment and providing for a comfortable existence for themselves. As time went on, nothing changed in nature or their environment, so there was never a need for them to change.
^^Complete and absolute bullshiit.
Originally posted by claus360 Humans develop their societies as far as the particular ecological basis will allow. Life in Africa has always been tough, since,in ecological terms, Africa was far more difficult to tame than Europe or Asia. There are various reasons as to why, despite man starting out in Africa, it lags developmentally. As I remember from my MA and reading John Reader's Africa:Biography of the Continent, problems included erratic rainfall patterns and drought; largely poor soils due to the stability of the ancient continental landmass/lack of volcanic activity linked to fertile soils; the fact that the continent is - uniquely - bisected by the equator, so proportionately more of the land mass has a tropical climate that allows pests (e.g. mosquitoes, tsetse flies) to breed year round and spread debilitating diseases (e.g. malaria, yellow fever, sleeping sickness - not to forget bilharzia in the rivers and lakes); from memory, comparatively more effort is required to clear African weeds; and marauding African fauna (e.g. elephants stealing crops) all put a brake on Africa's development. Tropical Africa's population growth rate, until the late/post-colonial era was relatively slow- the ecological factors listed above impacted on the ability of women to reproduce. (Reader does a continental/regional population growth comparison in Biography of the Continent, which, if accurate, shows the extent to which Africa's population growth was hampered compared to what was experienced in other parts of the world.) Without the necessary population growth, hands were tied to food production, meaning that there weren't enough individuals who could be freed up to spend time specialising in other areas. Of course, Kemet, Kush, Mali, etc were the exceptions.
Fair points, noted by several other credible scholars. It should also be noted that similar conditions above promoting isolation and lowered population and agricultural production are nothing new, and occur in Europe as well in various areas- such as parts of the mountainous Balkans- a region that gave the English language a word for fragmentation and confusion. In northern Europe, Ireland would be another case- remaining relatively backward until recent centuries. Places like Bulgaria or Ireland compare poorly to France in terms of technology, population, innovation over the span of European history. Britain by the way was in the exact same position, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, until conquest by Roman hegemons drew it into a wider orbit. Africa is thus no special case of backwardness.
The facts you post claus contradict bullshiit "biodiversity" claims about "tropical" peoples supposedly "laid back" with "easy" lives and environments. To the contrary, Africans have had to do it the hard way, without the convenient network of navigable rivers, good harbors, good soils, snow-melt facilitating irrigation etc etc. Europe by contrast has had it easy- with key plant and animal domesticates moving in an East-West climatic axis, easing the spread of new technologies, ideas and people. This is why Europeans have been massive borrowers and copiers from other peoples historically- they have always enjoyed a favorable climatic axis and location.
As one recent web analyst notes: (Stratfor) "The first is the North European Plain, an expansive stretch of lowland extending from the Russian steppe in the east to the Pyrenees in the west. This region is blessed with the densest concentration of navigable waterways in the world. The combination of a fertile, easily traversable coastal plain with seven major rivers guarantees both agricultural surpluses and the ability to move them easily and cheaply. The plain is perfect for trade, communication and technology transfer -- and from those activities the accumulation of massive amounts of capital. Consequently, Northern Europe is home to the densest concentration of wealth in the world.
The second feature -- the Mediterranean Sea -- plays a similar role to the continent's south. Maritime transport on the Mediterranean is far simpler than oceanic transport in Northern Europe; the North Sea is one of the world's stormiest bodies of water. But mitigating that advantage is the simple fact that much of the southern side of the continent lacks a robust coastal plain. So while Southern Europe is still rich by global standards, it is a distant second by the high standards of Northern Europe. The two regions have very little to do with each other geographically, and their relative isolation has spawned a raft of differing political, social and economic cultures.
Europe it should be noted had to wait on outside peoples to introduce such revolutionary developments as writing, metallurgy, major plant and animal domesticates etc, etc etc. None of these things came from Europe. Even Europe's main religion is imported from the outside.
Where tropical Africans have been able to get good locations and/or access to trade routes facilitating a heavier interchange of material, goods and ideas, advanced civilizations have developed, just like everywhere else. We know the roll call- the Nile Valley with its famous transportation and agriculture engine, the Sahara with its flows of trade linking forest and savannah- making some West African kingdoms richer than many contemporary European kingdoms in certain eras (Mali for example), the gold mining hegemons of the south as seen in Great Zimbabwe, etc etc.
Note: "interchange" above also refers to important INTERNAL exchanges between African cultures and civilizations not merely external locations. These internal interchanges were hindered by difficult environmental conditions (contrast with the dense river network and good natural harbors of other locations elsewhere making for easy movement of men, material, technology and ideas, but nevertheless they did occur at different levels over time. The famed Benin bronze works for example are the product of centuries of regional fermet and interchange. Likewise the famed iron-works of the Sudanic zone down into East Africa- a product fundamentally of long-standing indigenous development.
Finally "tropical Africa" geographically does include part of southern Egypt, and slices of Libya and Algeria, a point conveniently forgotten by many in the Western academy, as well as bogus "biodiversity" types.
Posted by kikuyu22 (Member # 19561) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Claus3600,
One must be careful about what Euro authors like John Read write. Most of these authors are throughly racist in their explanations of the technological development of the African continent.
Reader speaks of poor solis in Africa. Essential nonsense. Africa is a huge continent and just a portion of it like the Congo or Angola has enough rich soil to grow anything that would supply the African continent and beyond.
Reader's comment on Africa's rainfall as being erratic is just nonsense. Traditionally there has always the rainy season and the dry season--which allowed the "growing season" and the "harvest season"--year in year out. Yams, rice an sorghum have always been produced in Africa. If Africans were not healthy and robust how come the whites eagerly sought them out as unwilling labourers for the Americas. And during colonial times who did all that heavy lifting but Africans themselves.
In terms of population, historian Rodney in "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" made the statistical observation that Africa's population was actually comparable to that of Europe before the full force of the Atlantic trade was unleashed.
Again, be careful of what you read. Caveat lector!
On soil fertility,Reader is essentially correct. Africa is comparatively infertile compared to Europe. Even the Congo with its incredible green lushness;away from the Eastern regions with its volcanic soils is only a fraction as fertile as Belgium.Looks are deceiving; Most of Africa is similarly plagued with poor laterite soils.
quote:
quote:
Isn't this an issue that could be described as common to most countries in the world? Even European countries militarily punch below their weight - aside from relying on the Americans to take out Libya's air defence sites, they had to get the Americans to re-ssupply them with munitions once the campaign became prolonged.
Given Africa's economic realities, the military weakness of its individual states is not that surprising. Yes,but should a country with billions in oil and a 150 mn people have the airforce of Latvia or Moldova??
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
No, the point is that given the size of Africa there is enough fertile land to grow crops that could be exported to the whole continent.
When you say land is "fertile" the obvious question should be "for what"?
Africa is major producer of cocoa, coffee, tea, palm kernel, rubber tree sap, maize, groundnuts, manioc, sisal, date palms, huge yams, etc. There are areas that just right for rice, fonio, and couscous, etc.
And there are parts of the cooler areas that can grow grapes, apples, and wheat such as South Africa, the Jos Plateau(Nigeria), the Fouta(Guinea), the Ethiopia Highlands, etc.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Africa as a continent has always been underpopulated relative to other continents. Europe is 1/8th the size of Africa and has almost the same size of population. America is 1/5th the size of Africa and has almost half the population.
.
The population of Europe grew rapidly just after abolition of serfdom and the start of the industrial age.
Recall that during "the Black Death" Europe lost some 35-40% of its population.
The population of the U.S. is some 300 million people but Africa's population is 1 billion plus.
The population of the U.S. is not approximately, therefore, "almost half [Africa's] population".
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:In the West African country of Mali, when ethnic Taureg fighters returned from Libya well armed, it encouraged Taureg separatists to launch a new rebellion against the government in January. While Gadhafi's weapons were no match for the NATO forces that came to the rescue of Libyan revolutionaries, they were far superior to the weapons of the impoverished Malian army. A mutiny by Mali's out-gunned and frustrated soldiers turned into a coup d'etat when they stormed the Presidential Palace in March, erasing more than two decades of democratic rule.
.
Just the usual lying Western propaganda. The liars know fully well that the Libyan Touaregs are still in Libya and are being targeted by NATO's mercenaries and its imposed government, the NTO. The Libyan Touaregs are being cleansed from Sabha and other Fezzan towns of Libya.
The fact is that the arms introduced into Libya by NATO and its Benghazi and Qatar mercenaries is what is now being used by reactionary Al Qaeda mercenaries in the Sahel to sow destruction with the aim of introducing the primitive law system of Sharia.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:Africa as a continent has always been underpopulated relative to other continents. Europe is 1/8th the size of Africa and has almost the same size of population. America is 1/5th the size of Africa and has almost half the population.
.
The population of Europe grew rapidly just after abolition of serfdom and the start of the industrial age.
Recall that during "the Black Death" Europe lost some 35-40% of its population.
The population of the U.S. is some 300 million people but Africa's population is 1 billion plus.
The population of the U.S. is not approximately, therefore, "almost half [Africa's] population".
You are right. It isn't half the population. However, America has a higher population density in general than Africa. And so does Europe. And for most of its history Africa has had a very low population density compared to other continents.
However, that is now changing with the population boom that has been taking place in Africa over the last 50 years or so.
quote: Africa's population has rapidly increased over the last 40 years, and consequently, it is relatively young. In some African states, half or more of the population is under 25 years of age. The total number of people in Africa grew from 221 million in 1950 to 1 billion in 2009.
Compare that to the population of the United States which is the 3rd most populated country in the world. In 1950 the population of the United States was 150 million which was almost two thirds the size of Africa in a much smaller space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:In the West African country of Mali, when ethnic Taureg fighters returned from Libya well armed, it encouraged Taureg separatists to launch a new rebellion against the government in January. While Gadhafi's weapons were no match for the NATO forces that came to the rescue of Libyan revolutionaries, they were far superior to the weapons of the impoverished Malian army. A mutiny by Mali's out-gunned and frustrated soldiers turned into a coup d'etat when they stormed the Presidential Palace in March, erasing more than two decades of democratic rule.
.
Just the usual lying Western propaganda. The liars know fully well that the Libyan Touaregs are still in Libya and are being targeted by NATO's mercenaries and its imposed government, the NTO. The Libyan Touaregs are being cleansed from Sabha and other Fezzan towns of Libya.
The fact is that the arms introduced into Libya by NATO and its Benghazi and Qatar mercenaries is what is now being used by reactionary Al Qaeda mercenaries in the Sahel to sow destruction with the aim of introducing the primitive law system of Sharia.
Yes, the overthrow of Libya is simply a prelude of the destabilization of Northern Africa with the long term prospect of European and American intervention and re-colonization, led by France on one hand which is the former colonial power of North West Africa. Sudan and Somalia are already destabilized and it wont take much for it to spread across the Sahara, funded by Americas Wahhabist allies in Saudi Arabia (who no matter how much they support Al-Qaeda have not been targeted by the U.S..... yet). Which makes this whole war on terror simply another farce and pretext for Europeans to keep large areas of the planet destabilized in order to preserve the balance of military, economic and political power in the west. It is like a broke record with the same tune playing over and over again, the tune being going in and attacking the same places and same people again and again and again and again, with new pretexts but the underlying goal is the same.
The only difference in this new phase of the same old game is that the U.S. and Europe have reached their peak economically and are now declining, largely due to the destructive banking systems they helped create in the heydays of colonization and off shoring which has allowed companies to expand and become global and not tied to any one country. That factor is going to make the next 100 years very very dangerous indeed.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Again, be careful of white statistics. There are vested interests involved in undercounting Africa's populations. The population of Africa was NOT 250 million in 1950.
The annual growth rate for Africa--given infant mortality, premature deaths, wars, etc.--since 1950 is approximately 1.5-2.0%. Thus the African population in 1950 would have been approximately 400 million people.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Thank you lamin for introducing a little common sense. Allow me to introduce a little more:
HOW COULD ANYONE HAVE AN ACCURATE CENSUS OF AFRICA, WHEN AMERICANS CAN'T EVEN ACCURATELY CENSUS THEIR OWN MAJOR CITIES??????
Damn some of you are truly silly in trying to spread the Albino mans nonsense.
Logically then, we have to assume that since the Albino man gives Africa a one billion population, the actual population must be at least 1.5 billion, which is the figure that I use.
Arable land in the world
As one can see from the map:
African land is severely "UNDERUTILIZED".
One might then ask the question:
So why is the Albino man spreading the lie that Africans CAN'T feed themselves?
Officially launched at the Clinton Global Initiative meetings in 2011, the African Orphan Crops (AOC) consortium is an effort to improve the productivity of some of Africa’s most important food crops, while making them more nutritious and more robust in the face of weather disasters, pests and disease.
Working together, a collection of governmental and non-governmental bodies, scientific institutes and companies aim to improve the incomes of the 600 million Africans involved in farming, by providing them with surpluses to sell on the market.
Who are members of the consortium? The consortium of partners is led by Mars, Incorporated, the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD) and World Wildlife Fund. Working partners include:
IBM (which is opening five technology centers in Africa) DuPont/Pioneer Hi-Bred World Agroforestry Centre Bioversity International African Academy of Sciences TransFarm Africa (at the Aspen Institute Plant Breeding Academy at the University of California, Davis (UC Davis)
What are Africa’s most important food crops? The crops in question are grown in all parts of Africa, but are referred to as “orphan crops” because they have largely been ignored by science and big seed companies.
This includes, but is not limited to, crops like:
Cassava Palm oil Peanuts Sorghum Millet Ethiopian mustard Groundnut tree
Virtually every small farmer growing food crops for subsistence in Africa is growing a species that AOC will be striving to improve.
The consortium has already begun to sequence winter-thorn acacia, a tree that can be used for nitrogen fixation, carbon sequestration and erosion control. It has edible seeds, and unlike most trees, sheds its leaves in the rainy season, allowing it to be grown among field crops without shading them.
Why is improving yields of African crops important? Per capita food yields have been declining in Africa for decades. As a result, more than one-third of African children suffer stunting (low height for weight), irreversible after age two, with lifetime debilitating neurological effects.
Underweight children are often prevalent in smallholder farming systems, representing 75% of Africa’s underweight children according to the Millennium Project's Task Force on Hunger.
The IPCC reports that by early as 2020, global warming may reduce rain-fed crop yields in some African countries by as much as 50%.This is a daunting statistic as 96% of African agriculture is rain-fed rather than irrigated.
To tackle these complex and pressing challenges, the best place to start improving productivity and nutrition is with crops Africans already use and know how to grow.
It is also likely that the biggest gains will be made in crops that have received the least attention to date from 21st Century plant breeding technologies.
As population and consumption in Africa increase and 21st century technology allows faster improvements of annual crops, tree crops and perennial crops propagated without seeds, demand for these crops is increasing.
The AOC is working to help Africa meet this demand.
“This work will not only help Africans feed themselves and their nations, it will help produce more food without expanding agriculture and in the process destroying precious natural ecosystems. By 2050, we will need to produce twice as much food as we do today. If we are to have any natural habitat left, we will need to freeze the footprint of agriculture.”
— Jason Clay, senior vice president of market transformation at World Wildlife Fund
They want Africans to use "WESTERN" genetically modified seed crops.
Well great you say, they will produce resistant crops, what's the problem?
He,he,he: We ARE talking about the Albino man you know. His altruism is limited to HIM!
For those stupid enough to fall into his TRAP:
EACH YEAR THEY WOULD HAVE TO BUY HIS "SEEDS" AS THESE CROPS ARE NON-REPRODUCING, THEY HAVE TO BE RE-SEED EACH YEAR!
AND IF YOU WERE TO IN SOME WAY, ANGER THE ALBINO MAN, WELL, HE MIGHT "NOT" SELL YOU ANY SEED! Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^For those who might have missed the point above:
If you want to control a Nation, what is the most effective method, Bombing and Killing them, or threatening them with Starvation?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Thank you lamin for introducing a little common sense. Allow me to introduce a little more:
HOW COULD ANYONE HAVE AN ACCURATE CENSUS OF AFRICA, WHEN AMERICANS CAN'T EVEN ACCURATELY CENSUS THEIR OWN MAJOR CITIES??????
Damn some of you are truly silly in trying to spread the Albino mans nonsense.
Logically then, we have to assume that since the Albino man gives Africa a one billion population, the actual population must be at least 1.5 billion, which is the figure that I use.
Arable land in the world
As one can see from the map:
African land is severely "UNDERUTILIZED".
One might then ask the question:
So why is the Albino man spreading the lie that Africans CAN'T feed themselves?
Not to mention it is the same companies who are responsible for ignoring these "orphaned" crops to begin with as they are part of the same consortium of multinational agrobusinesses that dominate the export trade of African crops like coffee, chocolate, tea, flowers and so on. So who is kidding who? At the end of the day the Africans will simply be sharecroppers and slaves working for white NGOs no different than being slaves and sharecroppers working for white multinationals. Same sh*t different package.
I mean how on earth can Africans be starving overall after over 100 years of working sun up to sun down on huge mega plantations all over Africa? And now all of a sudden they don't know how to plant crops and feed themselves? Somebody deserves to be slapped.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Again, be careful of white statistics. There are vested interests involved in undercounting Africa's populations. The population of Africa was NOT 250 million in 1950.
The annual growth rate for Africa--given infant mortality, premature deaths, wars, etc.--since 1950 is approximately 1.5-2.0%. Thus the African population in 1950 would have been approximately 400 million people.
You are asking people who are accustomed to making decisions based off of instinct as opposed to engaging in abstract thought to grasp what you are saying. That is a tall order in today's world. You research and THINK, they google and apply their findings to their foolish emotions.
With that said, I found an article that is related to how fertile Africa's land is link
People don't seem to get it. Africans are at war. At war with leaders who are bed buddies with our enemy and an enemy who is attempting to rape our homeland once again. Unfortunately, after decades of terrible education and indoctrination, people do not have the wherewithal to understand whats happening
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
Extracts from John Reader's 1998 book, ‘Africa: Biography of the Continent’ . The sub-headings are my own -
Comparative population growth ‘It has been estimated that about 1 million people inhabited Africa when the emigrants left the continent 100,000 years ago (see Chapter 10). By AD 200 numbers are said to have risen to 20 million – of whom more than half lived in North Africa and the Nile Valley (and thus would have been part of the Roman Empire population in AD 14), leaving a sub-Saharan population of under 10 million. By AD 1500 the population of the continent is estimated to have been 47 million and in a state of ‘stable biological equilibrium’, with population size fulfilling the potential of the environments that people occupied. Meanwhile, the out-of-Africa population had risen to just over 300 million.
A massive disparity is evident. While the out-of-Africa population grew from just hundreds to 200 million in 100,000 years, and rose to just over 300 million by AD 1500, the African population increased from 1 million to no more than 20 million in 100,000 years, and rose to only 47 million by AD 1500. And yet both groups were descended from the same evolutionary stock. Both groups inherited the talents and physiological attributes that evolution had bestowed during the preceding 4 million years in Africa.
Why did the migrant population grow so much faster? Or, to approach the disparity from another direction, what prevented the African population from achieving similar levels of growth? Since the ancestral stock was identical, the divergent history of the two groups implies that Africa itself was in some way responsible.’ (p3-4)
‘So why did the migrant population grow so much faster? Answer: because they moved out of Africa. By leaving the tropical environments of the cradle-land in which humanity had evolved, the migrants also left behind the many parasites and disease organisms that had evolved in parallel with the human species. Throughout their evolutionary history humans have been opportunists, whose numbers were kept low by environmental factors for much of the time, but whose potential for population growth ensured they would multiply rapidly whenever circumstances permitted. In short, humans are adapted to maximize numbers and colonize new territory. Out of Africa, beyond the reach of the insects and organisms, which had infected generation after generation, the multiplication of human numbers quickly assumed a hitherto unprecedented scale.
Of course, the initial absence or near-absence of organisms capable of living on or inside the human body was a passing phase. In time, as is all too evident, biologically and demographically significant diseases developed among the migrant populations too. But by then they had had more than a head start. Meanwhile, contemporary populations in the tropical African cradle-land remained constrained by debility and disease.’ (p234)
Pests and diseases ‘The hominids...kept away from tsetse fly-infested regions and so never acquired immunity. The strategy avoided the risk of trypanosomiasis, but also denied humans access to almost two-thirds of the potentially food-producing regions of sub-Saharan Africa.’ (p236)
‘While the trypanosomes restricted the growth and development of human populations in Africa by limiting the extent of land area available for them to occupy, the primary effect of other parasites has been to debilitate the people themselves, and thus lower their capacity to produce food. It has been claimed, for example, that where bilharzia is endemic the disease can cause an average loss of 40 per cent of an adult’s capacity to work. A study of sugar-cane workers in Tanzania quantifies the point in more direct terms: workers infected with bilharzia earned at least 11 per cent less in bonuses than those who were not infected.
Bilharzia, known medically as schistosomiasis, has a long record of association with humans. The parasite probably originated in Africa. Eggs of the schistosome fluke were found in the kidneys of two Egyptian mummies from the XXth dynasty (1200BC)...
‘..the power of the pharoahs probably rested on the fact that their subjects spent much of their lives paddling about in bilharzia-infested waters.’(p241)
‘The disease occurs wherever standing water facilitates the propagation of the host snail. It is so commonplace that a brisk haemorrhage from the bladder was regarded as a sign of puberty in boys, analogous to menstruation in girls...’(p237)
‘Hookworms, another parasite that evolved in Africa, are equally capable of debilitating a human population. A Unesco survey revealed an 80 per cent infestation rate among villagers and pygmies in the West African rainforest.’ (p238)
‘Falciparum malaria is the most common form of malaria in the tropics. In endemic zones nearly all children are infected by the time they are two years old.’ (239)
Soils ‘Africa, unlike any other continent, is divided into two almost equal parts by the Equator. Since most of the continent lies within the tropics, it does not experience the wide fluctuations in temperature which typify the climates of Europe and North America. (p98)
‘Relatively high and stable temperatures encourage growth when the soil is fertile and the rainfall is good. But there is a downside: the annual round of warm temperatures, with no seasonal change, means there is no relief from the activities of harmful bacteria or disease-bearing insects such as hard winter frosts bring to temperate climes. Furthermore, the total decomposition of vegetable matter is rapidly accomplished in consistently warm temperatures, leaving no time for the accumulation of humus, with the result that extensive layers of deep fertile topsoil are rare in Africa.
Fertile topsoils represent local concentrations of nutrients, but the overall availability of nutrients (from which that concentration is drawn) is initially determined by the nature of the geological parent material. Ancient granites and cratonic rocks , and the sediments derived from them, are poor in nutrients. Africa is the world’s most ancient and stable land mass...with a greater proportion of exposed granitic shield and cratonic surface than any area of comparable size on Earth. Nutrient-impoverished cratons and granites, basement sediments and sands cover about 90 per cent of African land surface; areas of nutrient-rich volcanic and associated sediments are corresondingly limited, concentrated in particular along the length of the Great Rift Valley in East and Central Africa.’ (p99)
Agriculture, nutrition and reproduction ‘The human population of Africa has never approached the size that the continent seems capable of supporting.
In the view of agronomists at the International Institute of Tropical Agriculture, Africa remains underpopulated even at the end of the second millennium, with a population approaching 900 million. Certainly the food-production potential of the continent has yet to be fully exploited. An FAO survey published in 1991 reported that only 22 per cent of land in Africa suitable for agriculture was actually in production (the comparable figure for south-east Asia is 92 per cent).’ (p243)
‘Three hectares of land (including fallow) is considered enough to feed a family and produce a surplus in any part of Africa where mixed agriculture is a viable, but the amount of labour required to keep that amount of land in protection seriously restrains a family’s ability to satisfy its needs. Pioneers clearing land for cultivation in the East African highlands invested up to 150 man-days of labour in the hectare, according to anecdotal reports. The annual round of planting and tending yam crops at typical locations in south-east Nigeria absorbed an average of 230 person/days per hectare. Weeds are a curse. Cleared ground creates conditions for profuse growth, especially in the humid tropics. In recorded instances, African farmers devote up to 54 per cent of their total labour output to the tiresome business of weeding, a greater proportion than weeds demand of farmers in any other part of the world.’ (p246)
‘A year –long study of energy expenditure among villagers cultivating clearings in the forest flanking the Gambia River in West Africa found that the effort required for some tasks exceeded the workers’ physical capacity by more than 50 per cent. Their body weight rose following the harvest, when food and leisure time were plentiful, but fell steadily when land preparations began again and the workload increased. Food stocks diminished rapidly and were almost exhausted during the period leading up to the harvest, when the workload was most demanding. At any one time in the course of a year the villagers were either enjoying an excess of food or enduring a deficit, hardly ever in balance. (p246)
‘Producing enough food to sustain the existing workforce is the first principle of subsistence agriculture. When production consistently fails to keep a community well-nourished, the seasonal round becomes a vicious circle: weakened by their inability to produce more food, farmers produce less and are trapped in a wearying struggle to prevent the circle becoming a downward spiral.
Nutritional deficiencies are particularly hard on childbearing women, whose pregnancies inevitably span at least one period when food is scarce and their workload high. The interval between births can be up to four years among women living under consistently stressful conditions (see page 118). In terms of a woman’s reproductive effectiveness, extended birth intervals should not simply limit the number of children born, but also ensure as many as possible survive. Even so, evidence from comparable situations in modern times shows that more than 30 per cent of infants probably died before reaching the age of five. The result was that although women married and began bearing children soon after puberty, they raised far fewer to maturity during their reproductive lifespans than was theoretically possible.
Children were precious, and the drive to reproduce became a central feature of African culture and social order.’ (p246)
African fauna: Elephants ‘Farmers...were in direct competition with elephants. Their preferred habitats were the same: medium to high rainfall regimes, soils capable of producing edible vegetation, and access to drinking water. Thus agriculture in Africa advanced at the expense of the elephant’s population size and range. Every hectare cultivated was a hectare lost to elephants. Conversely, since elephants found virtually all human food crops palatable, they inhibited expansion of the farmers’ population size and range.
Early farmers had recourse to spears, arrows, poison, fire, and noise, and they could dig pit-traps, but their capacity to keep a herd of hungry elephants at bay was always compromised by an inadequacy of numbers. In short, elephants compounded the problems of labour shortages and unpredictable environmental circumstances already restraining the development of agriculture in Africa, and from earliest times, were therefore a formidable obstacle to human population growth and expansion on the continent.’ (p255)
‘Lone farmers stood little chance, and if conflict or disease reduced a community’s manpower, elephants rapidly completed its collapse’. (p255)
‘In [colonial] Uganda, firearms and free ammunition were issued to famers, who were encouraged to kill marauding elephants. The policy ran from 1912-1921, when it was deemed to have failed – despite the death of several thousand elephants’. (p255)
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
I'm just asking how someone like this, got to be a Tuareg.
Black world to Niggas in Africa - THAT'S A TURK!
You're one IGNORANT troll. Not every light skinned north african is a turk. The genetic contribution of the turks in North Africa cant be higher than 1 or 2%
This man is a berber
Hmmm, seems I have heard something very similar before.
None of those people look ANYTHING like the original people. BUT they look very FAMILIAR to me, and they ALL seem to be pretty much EXACTLY the SAME.
Hmmm, I wonder how that could be?
Oh ya, Now I remember where I've seen people like that before!
IN TURKEY!!!!
.
Damn, that is very strange, how can the modern Berber, Egyptian, and Arab, look EXACTLY like a Turk?????
Oh yes, I forgot:
THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE! Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
.
So then logically, if the Berbers, Egyptians, and Arabs of the Ottoman look EXACTLY like Turks. Then perhaps the OTHER members of the Ottoman Empire might ALSO look like TURKS!
Lets TEST it!
.
Gee KoKaKoLa, THEY ALL LOOK "EXACTLY" THE SAME TO ME!
Ah, what was your point again? Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Related Content:
Twice-exiled former Ottoman princess dies.
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Neslisah Osmanoglu, an Ottoman princess who married an Egyptian prince and was twice forced into exile when both royal households were abolished, has died. She was 91.
Neslisah Sultan, or Princess Neslisah, died in Istanbul on Monday, according to her nephew, Abdulhamid Kayihan Osmanoglu. He didn't give the cause of death, but new reports said it was a heart attack. A funeral ceremony was being held Tuesday for the princess, who was the oldest member of the Ottoman dynasty.
Neslisah Sultan was born in Istanbul on Feb. 4, 1921, two years before the Turkish Republic replaced the Ottoman Empire, which had ruled Turkey, parts of the Middle East and eastern Europe for 600 years.
Her grandfather, the last Ottoman Sultan Vahdettin, and all other members of the dynasty were sent into exile in 1924, and the princess spent her childhood and adolescence in Nice, France, before moving to Egypt.
"When we were in exile we lived longing for the country," she told historian Murat Bardakci, whose biography of the princess was published last year. "My mother had friends who would go to Istanbul. I would ask them to bring me back a bit of soil from Istanbul, but none did."
Ottoman princesses were traditionally married to members of Muslim royal families, and in 1940, Neslihan Sultan married Egyptian Prince Muhammed Abdel Monem. Prince Monem headed a regency committee that ruled from July 1952 to June 1953, when the new rulers of Egypt turned the country into a republic.
Prince Muhammad Abdel Moneim Beyefendi (February 20, 1899 - December 1/2 1979) was an Egyptian prince and former heir apparent to the throne of Egypt and Sudan from 1899 to 1914. Upon the abdication of King Farouk following the Egyptian Revolution of 1952, he served as Regent for King Fuad II until the declaration of the Republic of Egypt and abolition of the Egyptian and Sudanese monarchy in 1953.
Prince Muhammad Abdul Moneim was born at the Montaza Palace, near Alexandria. His father Abbas II was the reigning Khedive and so Prince Muhammad Abdul Moneim became heir apparent immediately following his birth and was given with title Hereditary Prince. He was educated at Fribourg, Switzerland. Following the Ottoman Empire's entry into World War I, Prince Muhammad Abdul Moneim's father Abbas II was deposed by Britain on December 18, 1914 for supporting the Ottomans in the War. His father was replaced on the throne by his uncle Hussein Kamel thereby bypassing Prince Muhammad Abdul Moneim who was now demoted in the line of succession. He was created His Highness in 1922. Later he would serve as President of the Egyptian Olympic Committee from 1934 until 1938. In 1939 he was appointed President of the Arab delegation to the Palestine Conference in London in 1939.
The royal couple were placed under house arrest, accused of being part of an international plot against the Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser, but acquitted and forced to leave the country.
Exiled for a second time, Neslisah Sultan returned to live in France with her husband.
In 1952, the Turkish government allowed female members of the Ottoman family to return to Turkey, and the prince and princess moved to Istanbul in 1957.
On Tuesday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan praised the late princess.
"She was the poster-child for nobleness who carried the blood of Osman," he said in Parliament, referring to Osman I, the Anatolian ruler who established the Ottoman Empire. "We remember her with high regard and our blessings."
The princess took the surname Osmanoglu, or son of Osman, along with other surviving members of the dynasty.
"When I go out in the streets, I see that all nice things were built by my grandfathers," she told Bardakci. "I therefore cannot help think that they belong to me. I feel like I am a part of this place and that I belong to this land."
Prince Monem, who was born in 1899, died in Istanbul in 1979.
Neslisah Sultan is survived by a son, daughter and a grandson.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Well, its a fact that there were some mixed populations in North Africa before the Turks man. remember moors brought in millions of white slaves into North Africa, which helped to lighten up the area. You also have to remember Greeks, Romans also came in their and there was another Mediterranean group that came in during the time Kemet was an empire. So we can not deny that there has been mixture of various whites in that area. I won't say these whites have ANYTHING to do with Phoenician though, because to my knowledge Phoenicians were described as being black and "Hebrews" are a myth.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Turks are mearly light skinned blacks, what's the difference?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
typeZeiss - You are correct, I "over generalized". That was done purposefully, I have found that too much detail confuses.
Hebrews a myth?
How so?
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: typeZeiss - You are correct, I "over generalized". That was done purposefully, I have found that too much detail confuses.
Hebrews a myth?
How so?
Ah ok,
As for the Hebrews, here is some reading material and a few videos IF you're interested:
From my research I have come to one certainty. David, Solomon, Moses, Amos and Jesus were pharaohs from the 18th Dynasty. The "Hebrews" are actually the Egyptians. There was NEVER a Hebrew or Jewish people as we have come to understand them. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are just dressed down versions of the kemetic religion. I know that might erk a lot of people but that is what my research has led me to. Another good book to read is The Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman
Eventually I will turn my research to the time of Herod. Someone built that site on the temple mount which I would assume was Herod. However, I leave room for doubt in that regard, because everything else surrounding these people seems to be a lie, so who knows.
Also,
YouTube Israel Finkelstein. He is a famous Jewish archaeologist. See what he says about the history of the Jews. He also address those archaeologist who claim to have found stuff when in reality they are taking liberties with history.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Turks are mearly light skinned blacks, what's the difference?
People such as they, are slightly less than 1/2 Black: thus not quite Mulattoes, more akin to Quadroons. Unfortunately, the cutoff for self identifying as Black is Mulatto.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
typeZeiss, now it is YOU who is "over generalizing".
There is a BIG difference between the BIBLICAL Hebrews, and the Habiru. The Habiru were real people, and are well documented.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Turks are mearly light skinned blacks, what's the difference?
People such as they, are slightly less than 1/2 Black: thus not quite Mulattoes, more akin to Quadroons. Unfortunately, the cutoff for self identifying as Black is Mulatto.
Mike what category is the albino on the right?
a) black
b) white
c) mulatto
d) quadroon
thanks, lioness
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Jews being led inton exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC). Oxford University Press, 1998
Assyrian knitting worker
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lioness why why why do you do this
That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans beleived that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to from the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Lioness why why why do you do this
do what put up authentic pictures of an Assyrian carving of jews at Lachish and you prefer different pictures you are more comfortable with?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Naaw you tried to paint the pic with only one brush when You have been here long enough to know you need many hues and brushes for the picture is more complex.. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Naaw you tried to paint the pic with only one brush when You have been here long enough to know you need many hues and brushes for the picture is more complex..
That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!! Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: typeZeiss, now it is YOU who is "over generalizing".
There is a BIG difference between the BIBLICAL Hebrews, and the Habiru. The Habiru were real people, and are well documented.
You don't know what your talking about friend. DO RESEARCH. That term was applied to any number of people. I have done my research, do yours. Or not
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!!
That is from Greek Mythology and the "Aethiopia" they were referring to isn't present day "Ethiopia". That was the term the Greeks applied to all of Black Africa. They even called Egyptians "Aethiop" at times. Just meant black skinned people and Aethiopia was applied to lands controlled/dominated by black skinned people. If you look at old maps of Africa back in the 1800s and 1700s you will see that they called most if not all of Africa Ethiopia at one point. Then in the 70s present day Ethiopia decided to use the term to refer to themselves. Before which time they were known as El Habasha or Abyssinia as it was called by the Europeans
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!!
That is from Greek Mythology and the "Aethiopia" they were referring to isn't present day "Ethiopia". That was the term the Greeks applied to all of Black Africa. They even called Egyptians "Aethiop" at times. Just meant black skinned people and Aethiopia was applied to lands controlled/dominated by black skinned people. If you look at old maps of Africa back in the 1800s and 1700s you will see that they called most if not all of Africa Ethiopia at one point. Then in the 70s present day Ethiopia decided to use the term to refer to themselves. Before which time they were known as El Habasha or Abyssinia as it was called by the Europeans
Just to keep records straight...
In Ityopia, there exists at least two thousand year old written record of the name Ityopia. Any Ethiopian would tell you that the word was not etymologically greek. It is an Afrikan word.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: typeZeiss, now it is YOU who is "over generalizing".
There is a BIG difference between the BIBLICAL Hebrews, and the Habiru. The Habiru were real people, and are well documented.
You don't know what your talking about friend. DO RESEARCH. That term was applied to any number of people. I have done my research, do yours. Or not
Wow! What a succinct and enlightening answer!
Luckily I have boots on.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!!
That is from Greek Mythology and the "Aethiopia" they were referring to isn't present day "Ethiopia". That was the term the Greeks applied to all of Black Africa. They even called Egyptians "Aethiop" at times. Just meant black skinned people and Aethiopia was applied to lands controlled/dominated by black skinned people. If you look at old maps of Africa back in the 1800s and 1700s you will see that they called most if not all of Africa Ethiopia at one point. Then in the 70s present day Ethiopia decided to use the term to refer to themselves. Before which time they were known as El Habasha or Abyssinia as it was called by the Europeans
Just to keep records straight...
In Ityopia, there exists at least two thousand year old written record of the name Ityopia. Any Ethiopian would tell you that the word was not etymologically greek. It is an Afrikan word.
You telling me there are 2,000 year old records with the word Ityopia means nothing. 1. what are the records 2. who wrote them 3. is it before or after the population became Christians?
Anyone can say anything, but what does the data say and how are you interpreting that data? So lets begin, with the names of these records.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!!
you need to go to the original sources rather than regurgitate a Van Sertima slant
The Histories
By Tacitus
Written 109 A.C.E.
Translated by Alfred John Church and William Jackson Brodribb
Table of Contents
Book V
Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete, who settled on the nearest coast of Africa about the time when Saturn was driven from his throne by the power of Jupiter. Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighbouring tribe, the Idaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name. Others assert that in the reign of Isis the overflowing population of Egypt, led by Hierosolymus and Judas, discharged itself into the neighbouring countries. Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbours to seek a new dwelling-place. Others describe them as an Assyrian horde who, not having sufficient territory, took possession of part of Egypt, and founded cities of their own in what is called the Hebrew country, lying on the borders of Syria. Others, again, assign a very distinguished origin to the Jews, alleging that they were the Solymi, a nation celebrated in the poems of Homer, who called the city which they founded Hierosolyma after their own name. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!! [/QB]
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2005 Oct;128(2):466-76. Bioarchaeological analysis of cultural transition in the southern Levant using dental nonmetric traits. Ullinger JM, Sheridan SG, Hawkey DE, Turner CG 2nd, Cooley R. Source Department of Anthropology, Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA. Ullinger.1@osu.edu
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Thank you lamin for introducing a little common sense. Allow me to introduce a little more:
HOW COULD ANYONE HAVE AN ACCURATE CENSUS OF AFRICA, WHEN AMERICANS CAN'T EVEN ACCURATELY CENSUS THEIR OWN MAJOR CITIES??????
Damn some of you are truly silly in trying to spread the Albino mans nonsense.
Logically then, we have to assume that since the Albino man gives Africa a one billion population, the actual population must be at least 1.5 billion, which is the figure that I use.
Arable land in the world
As one can see from the map:
African land is severely "UNDERUTILIZED".
One might then ask the question:
So why is the Albino man spreading the lie that Africans CAN'T feed themselves?
Mikey boy you have already been told that racist epithets are NOT allowed.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
don't be too hard on Mike he works for albinos
also alTakruri aka Tukelur has recently signed on as an Alboinoid is a Valid Racial Catagory Enthusiast in his recent thread:
WHITES: ENDEMIC TYR+ ALBINOIDS big deal
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by DHDoxies:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
So why is the Albino man spreading the lie that Africans CAN'T feed themselves?
Mikey boy you have already been told that racist epithets are NOT allowed.
Doxie dear, do try to keep up.
In ALL my posts, I refer to the Central Asian invaders by their clinical and scientific name - Albinos.
Posted by DHDoxies (Member # 19701) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by DHDoxies:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
So why is the Albino man spreading the lie that Africans CAN'T feed themselves?
Mikey boy you have already been told that racist epithets are NOT allowed.
Doxie dear, do try to keep up.
In ALL my posts, I refer to the Central Asian invaders by their clinical and scientific name - Albinos.
Mike stop being a liar. White people are NOT Asians nor are we albinos. You just use albino as a derogatory term for us out of your hatred for us.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Bioarchaeological analysis of cultural transition in the southern Levant using dental nonmetric traits.
Ullinger JM, Sheridan SG, Hawkey DE, Turner CG 2nd, Cooley R. Source Department of Anthropology, Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA. Ullinger.1@osu.edu
Sooo Lioness, let me get this straight:
With thousands-upon-thousands of skeletons available for examination, these bright Albino boys decided to do TEETH!
Okay then, just EXACTLY WHAT IS "Dental Morphology"?
The analysis of dental morphological trait variation may be used to infer past population history. Like cranial nonmetric traits, dental variants cannot be measured but are scored according to the degree of expression. The Osteoware Dental Morphology module allows fast and accurate recording of data using the trait list and protocol presented in the Buikstra and Ubelaker (1994) Standards, which is a subset of the Arizona State University Dental Anthropology System (Turner et al., 1991).
While text descriptions and images of the ASU series of reference plaques appear in the published literature (e.g. Hillson 1996), scoring dental traits from the original plaques is highly recommended. Contact the School of Human Evolution and Social Change, ASU, General Inquiries for availability: ASUDAS@asu.edu
One data entry screen streamlines accurate documentation Contextually driven scoring boxes and trait category definitions Comments field available for qualitative descriptions
The Osteoware Dental Morphology module consists of a single data entry screen with the maxillary and mandibular traits listed on the right side, and a dental arcade with contextually driven scoring boxes and trait descriptions on the left side. Selecting a trait on the right side provides ‘Help’ text and data entry boxes for each relevant tooth. Clicking the button in the upper right opens a Comments field to enter a more qualitative description of unusual traits or caveats on the documentation itself.
.
Negroes this is how the Albinos come up with the Bullsh1t that they tell you! Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Wrong dumb bunny
It was said claiming albino origins for Euro whites is racism.
I presented sources showing the concept was invented by Euro whites themselves.
Out of three variant proposals for the origins of Euro white skin I don't particularly endorse either of them. The fact of the matter is that some of the genes that make for Euro white skin, eye, and hair colors are the same genes that make for pink to so-called "olive" complexions, blue to hazel eyes, and platinum blonde to light brown hair colors and that's a scientific fact.
My intent was to call bullshit on those falsely calling the albino proposition racist.
Your dumbass needs to ask people what they think instead of hurling accusations what your ignorant ass believes that somebody holds to be true or factual.
After playing fair and giving you the benefit of the doubt time after time you prove yourself a slimy lying snake and I have no respect for you and much less so for the idiotic regurgitations you mindlessly vomit onto these forums.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: don't be too hard on Mike he works for albinos
also alTakruri aka Tukelur has recently signed on as an Alboinoid is a Valid Racial Catagory Enthusiast in his recent thread:
WHITES: ENDEMIC TYR+ ALBINOIDS big deal
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Not gonna go into detail about this because you can GOOGLE what I posted here on it in full but the Aithiopia Cepheus reigned over was no place other than Joppa/Yaffa/Tel Aviv in Palestine/Israel.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Not gonna go into detail about this because you can GOOGLE what I posted here on it in full but the Aithiopia Cepheus reigned over was no place other than Joppa/Yaffa/Tel Aviv in Palestine/Israel.
source for this?
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: typeZeiss, now it is YOU who is "over generalizing".
There is a BIG difference between the BIBLICAL Hebrews, and the Habiru. The Habiru were real people, and are well documented.
You don't know what your talking about friend. DO RESEARCH. That term was applied to any number of people. I have done my research, do yours. Or not
Wow! What a succinct and enlightening answer!
Luckily I have boots on.
I have given you the name of two books and three videos you can go read and watch. You on the other hand have given me opinion. What more am I supposed to do, fly to your house and read the books to you while you doze off to sleep?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Naaw you tried to paint the pic with only one brush when You have been here long enough to know you need many hues and brushes for the picture is more complex..
Israel, living in wickedness and idolatry, was warned by prophets Elijah, Elisha, and Hosea, to repent or face conquest. Prophets and Kings from Judah offered help, and invited them to return to the temple in Jerusalem. These offers they scorned, becoming ripe for destruction.
The Assyrians viciously brought that destruction.
Reconstruction of Nineveh
As we read in the Old Testament of the Assyrians conquering Israel and much of Judah, it is easy to visualize these people as they were pictured at the time in the palaces of the Assyrians. Nineveh is a rich trove of art showing the Assyrian kings and captives majestically portrayed in magnificent bas reliefs. Assyrian art is instantly recognizable because of the pictures of raw strength. Everyone is shown heavily muscled, even the animals.
"King Assurbanipal decked out for the hunts. British Museum.
Assyrian God from Nineveh wall relief. Note the muscular legs in this figure, typical of Assyrian Art.
Boston Museum of Fine Arts."
Captives were treated particularly harshly. The Geneva Convention was not in the thought process of the Assyrians, who believed in spreading fear among the surrounding enemies.
By about 900 BC, Assyria was becoming a fierce war machine, dominating the Near East for 300 years until they were conquered by the Babylonians. Centuries of warfare — as the predominant aspect of their culture — hardened them into a brutal people.
In the temples and palaces, rich with militaristic art, there are no happy scenes of banquets, dancing, feasting, or happy family scenes. All Assyrian art is centered on power.
Tilgath Pileser (also known in the Old Testament as Pul) reigned from 745-727 BC. He warred against Syria and advanced along the Mediterranean, subjugating Phoenicia and Gaza. He conquered Israel in 721 BC, removing the Israelites, and advanced on Judah. Palace art shows captives and vassals paying tribute to the kings.
Tilgath Pileser (Pul), shown in court in his palace, from an artist's reconstruction from a bas relief. 8th C. BC, Louvre
Kings’ sport was shooting lions while riding in chariots. Dying lions and lion hunts figure prominently in palace art. While people were depicted with little emotion, animals were shown with great sensitivity, as we see in this excellent relief of a dying lioness.
Someday, when we get the scriptures from the Ten Tribes, it will be interesting to hear the stories associated with the hardships they suffered under the Assyrians.
Israelite prisoners being marched out of Israel by Assyrian soldiers.
Note dead Israelites at left. From Bas Relief at Nineveh.
After the defeat of Israel, the Assyrians advanced on Judah, moving south, and conquering as they went. Watch fires were set that could be seen from one city to another, so the next city in line could see what was the state of the battle.
After the defeat of Israel, the Assyrians advanced on Judah, moving south, and conquering as they went. Watch fires were set that could be seen from one city to another, so the next city in line could see what was the state of the battle.
One of the most poignant archaeological finds related to this period is an ostracon from Lachish. Ostracon were broken pieces of fired clay or pottery. Relatively indestructible, they were used as message pads.
The Lachish Ostracon #4, found in the ruins of Lachish, ends a long message with the sad words, "and let my Lord know that we are watching for the signal fires of Lachish... for we cannot see Azekiah." Azekiah had been defeated, Lachish was next, and the giant Assyrian siege ramp is still visible. The message was never sent.
Ostracon #4 from Lachish.
After defeating Lachish, the Assyrians moved on Jerusalem in 701 BC, and laid siege to the city. They were smitten by a plague (probably bubonic) and woke up all "dead corpses." (2 Kings 18, 19.) The king, Sennacherib, returned to Assyrian, abandoning Jerusalem, where he was assassinated by two of his sons while worshiping in the Assyrian temple.
Assyrians transplanted conquered peoples to other areas in their large kingdom, rendering them relatively helpless and disoriented. Their leadership was destroyed, and they were in unfamiliar areas, under guard. Other captive peoples were moved into their vacated lands. Some original Israelites were undoubtedly still in the area of Israel, having evaded capture. Mixed with the newly transplanted people brought by the Assyrians, they intermarried and mixed religious beliefs, absorbing elements of both.
When Judah was allowed to return under the Persians they scorned these people with their false religious practices, as they were despised at the time of Christ. They became known as the Samaritans.
Source: Meridian Magazine
End
Nahum, Nineveh and Those Nasty Assyrians
He cleared the Delta of the Cushites (Ethiopians) in 667/666 BC and the Cushite ruler, Taharqa, fled to No-Amon.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Can I get an, Amen?
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the AMEN, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. ( Revelation 3:14-15 )
Amon, or Amen
(the mysterious ), an Egyptian divinity, whose name occurs in that of No-amon. ( Nahum 3:8 ) Amen was one of the eight gods of the first order and chief of the triad of Thebes. He was worshipped at that city as Amen-Ra, or "Amen the Sun."
Bibliography Information
Smith, William, Dr. "Entry for 'Amon, or Amen'". "Smith's Bible Dictionary". . 1901.
Nahum 3:9 "Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite".......? lol
Napata and its Amun sanctuary remained the kingdom’s chief religious center and the premier site of all royal coronations. Well into the Common era, Jebel Barkal was thought to be the main Nubian seat of the god Amun, who conferred kingship upon the rulers of Kush – a kingship believed by its possessors to have descended, in that place, directly from the sun god Re at the beginning of time.
III. A. The Nature of Amun and the Mysteries of Jebel Barkal.(Amen)
It is clear from a complex surviving iconographic and textual record that from early Dynasty 18 the Egyptians assigned Jebel Barkal an outsized religious and political significance because of its peculiar shape. It is perhaps the unique Egyptian religious site that allows us to perceive how Egyptian religious beliefs were influenced by the natural landscape. The isolated hill evoked in the Egyptian mind the Primeval Mound of popular myth, on which Creation was thought to have taken place. “Proof” of the presence here of Amun as Creator was evident to ancient onlookers in the towering, statue-like pinnacle on its south corner (fig. 23), which, when viewed from different angles at different times of the day, suggested to them the forms of many different divine beings or aspects, all of which combined to confirm the presence and protean nature of the god, whose very name meant “Hidden.”
And you didn't even get the whole story. Can you imagine? lol
As I enclose this with; Amen.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I have given you the name of two books and three videos you can go read and watch. You on the other hand have given me opinion. What more am I supposed to do, fly to your house and read the books to you while you doze off to sleep?
Earth to typeZeiss, look around, do you see anyone answering with what is in a book or video? That's a bullsh1ters out.
No, to be taken seriously, YOU have to tell the story, quoting from sources as necessary.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I have given you the name of two books and three videos you can go read and watch. You on the other hand have given me opinion. What more am I supposed to do, fly to your house and read the books to you while you doze off to sleep?
Earth to typeZeiss, look around, do you see anyone answering with what is in a book or video? That's a bullsh1ters out.
No, to be taken seriously, YOU have to tell the story, quoting from sources as necessary.
*chuckle* you should live so long. Get off your lazy ass and read the books and watch the videos or not. Either way I could care less. I will not aid in your laziness
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!!
That is from Greek Mythology and the "Aethiopia" they were referring to isn't present day "Ethiopia". That was the term the Greeks applied to all of Black Africa. They even called Egyptians "Aethiop" at times. Just meant black skinned people and Aethiopia was applied to lands controlled/dominated by black skinned people. If you look at old maps of Africa back in the 1800s and 1700s you will see that they called most if not all of Africa Ethiopia at one point. Then in the 70s present day Ethiopia decided to use the term to refer to themselves. Before which time they were known as El Habasha or Abyssinia as it was called by the Europeans
Just to keep records straight...
In Ityopia, there exists at least two thousand year old written record of the name Ityopia. Any Ethiopian would tell you that the word was not etymologically greek. It is an Afrikan word.
You telling me there are 2,000 year old records with the word Ityopia means nothing. 1. what are the records 2. who wrote them 3. is it before or after the population became Christians?
Anyone can say anything, but what does the data say and how are you interpreting that data? So lets begin, with the names of these records.
The Book of Genesis tells you about this Ethiopia that gave birth to Egypt via the Nile. The source of the blue Nile is Ethiopia. Lake Tana. Blue Nile gives the silt which built and replenishes Egypt. The white Nile which comes from Uganda does not carry silt. The book of Genesis is more than 2000 years old.
Check the book of Kebra Negast, it tells you 3000 years history of Ityopia, in written ancient African script called Geez.
The Book of Enoch, a book that pre-dates the book of Genesis. It tells you about Ethiopia, this Ethiopia in the East, in the midst of sacred Mountains....
I could go on, and get even deeper or academic, but I will leave you to research and grow on your own.
After reading all the books of Babylon lie-braries, you have to learn to read the book inside of you. That is true knowledge.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I have given you the name of two books and three videos you can go read and watch. You on the other hand have given me opinion. What more am I supposed to do, fly to your house and read the books to you while you doze off to sleep?
Earth to typeZeiss, look around, do you see anyone answering with what is in a book or video? That's a bullsh1ters out.
No, to be taken seriously, YOU have to tell the story, quoting from sources as necessary.
*chuckle* you should live so long. Get off your lazy ass and read the books and watch the videos or not. Either way I could care less. I will not aid in your laziness
He,he,he:
You really think that you're fooling someone.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Note we are back with our old friends the Natufians and what do we know about them? that they previously inhabit the Nile valley under the Mashubian culture. just can't get away with the fact that some o dem folks were black folks.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Note we are back with our old friends the Natufians and what do we know about them? that they previously inhabit the Nile valley under the Mashubian culture. just can't get away with the fact that some o dem folks were black folks.
Nice info. But after what I posted it was already a done deal.
However, LA asked you, and you've been nice and kind to cater. Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Back to the thread topic!
U.S. suspends $13 million in aid to Mali.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is suspending at least $13 million of its roughly $140 million in annual aid to Mali following last month's coup in the West African nation, the State Department said on Wednesday.
The suspension affects U.S. assistance for Mali's ministry of health, public school construction and the government's efforts to boost agricultural production.
The United States, which sees Mali as an important partner in regional efforts to combat Islamic extremism, has warned that Mali's political crisis was putting the territorial integrity of the country at risk.
U.S. law bars aid "to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree."
The United States announced the suspension of some aid to Mali a day after calling again on coup leaders to immediately return power to civilian authorities.
"The rest of the assistance will continue but anything that was directly going into the government programs and ministries has to be suspended," State Department spokesman Mark Toner told reporters.
Once one of the most stable democracies in West Africa, Mali has been in turmoil since the widely condemned March 22 coup that emboldened Tuareg rebels to seize half the country in their quest for a northern homeland.
They have been joined by Islamists bent on imposing sharia, Islamic law, across the whole of the moderate Muslim state, making it the latest security concern in a region battling al Qaeda agents and home-grown militant groups such as Nigeria's Boko Haram.
Mali's military rulers on Wednesday postponed a national convention to end a crisis sparked by the coup, which has led to international isolation and allowed the rebels to seize control of the northern half of the country.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^lesson to other Negroes:
Once you have accepted an invaders religion, sooner or later, you will be faced with dealing with the rest of his "Dogma's".
There is also a lesson in who the messenger is:
These are not "Arab" concepts; they are antithetical to all historically known Black societies.
These are the concepts of the primitive nomadic Albino Turk.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Back to the thread topic!
U.S. suspends $13 million in aid to Mali.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is suspending at least $13 million of its roughly $140 million in annual aid to Mali following last month's coup in the West African nation, the State Department said on Wednesday.
The suspension affects U.S. assistance for Mali's ministry of health, public school construction and the government's efforts to boost agricultural production.
The United States, which sees Mali as an important partner in regional efforts to combat Islamic extremism, has warned that Mali's political crisis was putting the territorial integrity of the country at risk.
U.S. law bars aid "to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree."
The United States announced the suspension of some aid to Mali a day after calling again on coup leaders to immediately return power to civilian authorities.
"The rest of the assistance will continue but anything that was directly going into the government programs and ministries has to be suspended," State Department spokesman Mark Toner told reporters.
Once one of the most stable democracies in West Africa, Mali has been in turmoil since the widely condemned March 22 coup that emboldened Tuareg rebels to seize half the country in their quest for a northern homeland.
They have been joined by Islamists bent on imposing sharia, Islamic law, across the whole of the moderate Muslim state, making it the latest security concern in a region battling al Qaeda agents and home-grown militant groups such as Nigeria's Boko Haram.
Mali's military rulers on Wednesday postponed a national convention to end a crisis sparked by the coup, which has led to international isolation and allowed the rebels to seize control of the northern half of the country.
Key point is this:
quote:Mali's military rulers on Wednesday postponed a national convention to end a crisis sparked by the coup, which has led to international isolation and allowed the rebels to seize control of the northern half of the country.
Now the West is supposed to be against AlQaeda and Islamic militants. However, in this case, while I don't agree with coups and their destabilizing effects on African people, it is helping the militants. Much like the West supported the Militants in Libya. So again, this is simply part of a plan and agenda to destabilize Africa using Islamic militants and extremist mercenaries. Keep in mind that all of this goes back to the British and their alliance with the Saudis. Once the Ottomans were defeated in WWI the British decided that having Islamic Extremism was a good way to keep the Ottomans from coming back and the re-emergence of an Islamic super state. Every since then Saudi has been funding and supporting hard core Islamists and the West hasn't said a word but actively supported it. Case in point, Syria. Case in point Somalia, where Saudis allegedly supply most of the funding and of course Libya where the Saudis and Qataris funded the "rebels". And this shows how even going as far back as Islamic Spain, The Byzantine Empire and the Crusades, Muslim political elites are well known for being treacherous and back stabbing going as far to engage in alliances with Christian armies in order to preserve their own power....
And from this time period arose the double headed Eagle as a symbol of the control over both sides of the East and West:
quote:The head on the left (West) symbolizes Rome, the head on the right (East) symbolizes Constantinople. The cross and orb in the claws symbolize, respectively, spiritual and secular authority. Relief from the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople buildings.
Not coincidentally this also became the symbol of the Seljuk Turks who often called themselves the Sultanate of Rum (Rome) or eastern Rome.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo,even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod:
But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accerdited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem reperesents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
The remains found at Lakish:The excavacation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estamated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expidition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.James e Brunson
By inference I'd have to say some body was!!!
That is from Greek Mythology and the "Aethiopia" they were referring to isn't present day "Ethiopia". That was the term the Greeks applied to all of Black Africa. They even called Egyptians "Aethiop" at times. Just meant black skinned people and Aethiopia was applied to lands controlled/dominated by black skinned people. If you look at old maps of Africa back in the 1800s and 1700s you will see that they called most if not all of Africa Ethiopia at one point. Then in the 70s present day Ethiopia decided to use the term to refer to themselves. Before which time they were known as El Habasha or Abyssinia as it was called by the Europeans
Just to keep records straight...
In Ityopia, there exists at least two thousand year old written record of the name Ityopia. Any Ethiopian would tell you that the word was not etymologically greek. It is an Afrikan word.
You telling me there are 2,000 year old records with the word Ityopia means nothing. 1. what are the records 2. who wrote them 3. is it before or after the population became Christians?
Anyone can say anything, but what does the data say and how are you interpreting that data? So lets begin, with the names of these records.
The Book of Genesis tells you about this Ethiopia that gave birth to Egypt via the Nile. The source of the blue Nile is Ethiopia. Lake Tana. Blue Nile gives the silt which built and replenishes Egypt. The white Nile which comes from Uganda does not carry silt. The book of Genesis is more than 2000 years old.
Check the book of Kebra Negast, it tells you 3000 years history of Ityopia, in written ancient African script called Geez.
The Book of Enoch, a book that pre-dates the book of Genesis. It tells you about Ethiopia, this Ethiopia in the East, in the midst of sacred Mountains....
I could go on, and get even deeper or academic, but I will leave you to research and grow on your own.
After reading all the books of Babylon lie-braries, you have to learn to read the book inside of you. That is true knowledge.
So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ? What this means is, that. Book should not be used to prove history when it, itself is historically inaccurate.
As for the kebra Nagast it was not written in ge'ez, at least not originally. It is from a Coptic source and then from Coptic it was out into Arabic.
So again. Modern day Ethiopia and historic Ethiopia have nothing to do with each other. In the imagination of Christians and Rastafarians is does, but once you leave bizarro world and return to reality, the theory doesnt hold.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
In another thread, malibudusul is fantasizing about White slave women. As I explained to him, we already tried that, and it wasn't pretty.
In the beginning this is how Arabs lived.
But then they discovered White women.
Mostly they were sex slaves kept quiet by the "Ever-present" Hashish Pipe.
But some married these White slave women.
Out of those unions came the modern mulattoes of West Asia/North Africa.
But they remember the plight of their mothers.
A dirty, ragged Arab woman, sitting on the curb waiting for business. Location: Casablanca, Morocco Date taken: 1944
Ragged girls in the streets looking for business. Location: Casablanca, Morocco Date taken: 1944
And who put them in that condition.
.
Be wary of those people Negroes, be wary! Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Tukuler - I'm not doubting what you say.
I'm just asking how someone like this, got to be a Tuareg. BTW - the Tuareg leader that I saw looked just like him.
Titled on wiki "Tuareg from the Hoggar, Algeria"
Black world to Niggas in Africa - THAT'S A TURK!
Damn they're stupid!
People that don't wear dark indigo blue veils among the Tuareg in the Ahaggar are derived from the vassal castes and slaves. The fair-skinned ones are the result of intermixture with non-AFricans and especially Khorasanis and Turks from Murzuk and Zeila in the midieval period. That is at least what African manuscripts say.
Most Tuareg groups don't have so many people that look like this which is, of course, why it was put on Wikipedia. In Tuareg in Mali especially that would be rather rare.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
U.S. suspending aid to the Malian government was a bad move due to the close proximity of sleep cells in the Hausa states in Northern Nigeria. Marginalized groups like the Saharawi are likely to joint Al Queda as well to offset their marginal status. The only ally that Amnerica has in this region is Morocco which is not really definite.
I suspect the strategy of Al Queda and other Islamic extremist to going to be to use Islamicized Africans particularly in countries largely ignored by the west. Africa is in a bad perdicament.
Islamic extremism will run rampant in the Magreb and have some spill over into sahelian countries.
Other issues Africans should be concerned with are the following: China's oil/ land grab from Sudan to Angola
Egypt's growing population placing a strain upon the Nile and putting and denying other Nilotic Africa nations water rights. War with Ethiopia is impending and Egypt has a military specially trained to battle in heavily tropical areas if necessary.
In Central Africa there is a precisious mineral called Coltain which hundreds of Congolese/Central Africans die over daily. This is even a bigger problem than the blood diamond trade.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
But this Islamic extremism is nihilistic and stupid because it can go nowhere. Just killing people just for the sake of killing them and justifying such by an obscure ideology.
Just don't see how a coup could help the situation. Instead of seizing State House how about taking off those stupid French unforms and do some actual fighting.
The coup makes just saw the crisis in the North as an excuse to seize the government reins and enrich themselves. Nothing else.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Dana - I started this thread after watching the BBC news, and saw a Tuareg leader like the mulatto above. Knowing that means trouble for Black Africans, I started this thread to inform others.
More from the BBC:
The National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad (MNLA) and Islamist Ansar Dine are the two major Tuareg groups involved in the takeover of the north of Mali.
Other small groups also say they have taken part in the fighting.
Despite having very different aims, MNLA and Ansar Dine have joined forces to fight together from time to time, including in the capture of Timbuktu - but there are serious tensions between them, Martin Vogl says.
The MNLA grouping wants independence for the Tuareg's northern homeland, which it calls Azawad.
A statement released by the MNLA said that now they are in control of the north they will stop fighting and begin their "mission of defending and securing the territory of the Azawad, for the happiness of its people".
Two important figures in the MNLA are the general secretary Bila Ag Cherif and Mohamed Ag Najim, the head of the movement's military wing.
In the ranks of the MNLA are Malian Tuareg who, while in exile in Libya, fought alongside Col Gaddafi's forces as he tried to cling to power in Libya.
Once he was toppled, they returned to Mali - well-trained and with plenty of heavy weaponry.
The other major Tuareg group is the Islamist Ansar Dine led by a renowned former Tuareg rebel leader, Iyad Ag Ghali.
The group has ties to Al-Qaeda's north Africa branch, known as Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb.
Ansar Dine says it has not been fighting for independence - it wants to remain part of Mali but wants to introduce Sharia across the whole country, which is largely Muslim.
Who are the Tuareg?
Sometimes called the Blue People because the indigo used in some traditional robes and turbans dye their skins dark blue
Historically nomadic Berber people who live in the Sahara and Sahel regions of Libya, Algeria, Niger, Burkina Faso and Mali, which they call Azawad
When camels were introduced into the Sahara 2,000 years ago, the Tuareg became the main operators of the trans-Saharan caravan trade in commodities such as salt and gold Lost out when trade witched to the Atlantic Ocean
The Tuareg in Mali say they face discrimination because they are light-skinned and have been neglected by the government in far-off Bamako
They prefer to call themselves themselves the Kel Tamasheq or speakers of Tamasheq - their language which has its own alphabet
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The Kels already have their own nation. Their confederacy has lasted for centuries. The problem is no one acknowleges the Kel Confederacy and its seven sultanates whose land spans territory in the Euro colonialist carved nations of Mali, Algeria, Libya, and Niger.
All the aforenamed countries have a "Tuareg" problem. The Kels never accepted colonial rule and for them the Euro carved nations are bogus.
Mali for one will never give up the north and its strategic mineral resources and its non- Kel people look back to Songhai to legitimize their rights to the land even though Euros defined the boundaries of modern day Mali.
One solution could be for all the nations with a Kel emirate to accord official, if limited, recognition to the Kel Confederacy as a start toward negotiation. However, Kel cultural values may see verbal negotiation as inimical. They have for centuries relied on armed violence to settle land control disputes, both internally and externally.
Today's conflict is the latest in a continuing bid for dominance between Kels vs Mande & other non-Afrisan speakers documented over the last 1100 years.
Rebels
. Looking for stuff on the rebels in Niger. Will post that next.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
THE TUAREG REBELS IN NIGER: from a French blog.
The Revolt of the Blue Men "The worst thing for us is contempt." Threatened by famine, neglected by the power of Niamey, the Tuareg rebels took up arms to obtain a better distribution of wealth generated by oil production and the uranium. Report from our special correspondent in the Tenere Desert.
In the Ténéré, the legendary hospitality of Tuareg, lately, is being challenged. "In war as in war," said the cook, apologizing. His Kalashnikov is propped against a rock to throw coals on which he put his pot. As a child, the mother of erand Mohamed Moussa told him he had French blood. A noncommissioned officer of the colonial army fell, she claimed, under the spell of a beautiful young Touareg. Person does not remember his name or what he became. "If I like cooking, it's probably a little to him that I owe."
the Niger Movement for Justice (MNJ). they were the second group of Tuareg ex-military to join the ranks of the rebellion. The MNJ today boasts more than 700 fighters.
CLEARLY, THESE PEOPLE ARE MULATTOES - BUT WHOSE?
Mouhamad Aouchiki Kriska President of FFR
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Tukuler - Can you PLEEESE make sense of this for us!!!
In North Africa, many of these people declare themselves Berber under the banner of "Amazigh" possibly meaning "free people" or "free and noble men" (the word has probably an ancient parallel in the Roman name for some of the Berbers, "Mazices").
This has apparently so distressed one actual Berber group - the Touareg: that they are now disavowing their Berber heritage, and are instead proclaiming themselves to be ARABS!!
February 4, 2011
Touareg reject allegations of the Congress Amazigh World (Computer translation of the letter)
Link to letter
From: Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata his capacity as Chairman of the Assembly of Mali called "Youth Society North of the Republic of Mali", rejects the allegations of the World Amazigh Congress, that the Tuareg people are Amazigh.
The Assembly of the Republic of Mali Youth North strongly rejects such nonsense and false stories claimed by Congress Amazigh World through the media that the Tuareg of Mali and Niger, are Amazigh, and stresses that this claim is false is not based on a scientific basis.
And that Mr. Belkacem Lyons specializes in chemistry who viewed this trend shameless does not have any historical background to prove this myth, but proven by all history books, trusted that the Tuareg are of Arab descent, and crafts Targi has to do with Arabic calligraphy, this is the asset Targip known since a long time immemorial, and we believe such stories would fall within the Tuareg of the elements of client-related third-party suspicious.
And thus confirm and strongly that we will not allow the Congress of the World Amazigh has nothing to do with us as an intervention in our affairs and talk about our origins, this we, children of the Tuareg in Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu, we are proud Bootanna (Mali and Niger) to which we belong, and our religion, Islam, and declare that our is to achieve security and stability, peace and development in the Sahara for the happiness of our peoples and coexistence with the sons of the tribes of the Sahara, and that this is the position of all the Tuareg, who are struggling to achieve, and to work strenuously for it in every time and place.
Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata President of the General Assembly
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Tukuler - These are Tuareg just to the north in south Algeria. Can you explain why they are so different from those So-called Tuareg further south?
Tamanrasset
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Alot of the Tuareg in Mali probably have connection to nomadic Arabic Sahrawi groups in the Sahara.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Swenet, what about the references in the writings of the Old Testament, Strabo, and Joesphus? All of the following attest to a light and dark skinned population in the ancient Levantine region.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Swenet - Can you say specifically why you dismiss material like this, is it simply because of references to Greek mythical figures?
Tacitus: History Book 5
1. EARLY in this year Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father to complete the subjugation of Judaea, and who had gained distinction as a soldier while both were still subjects, began to rise in power and reputation, as armies and provinces emulated each other in their attachment to him. The young man himself, anxious to be thought superior to his station, was ever displaying his gracefulness and his energy in war. By his courtesy and affability he called forth a willing obedience, and he often mixed with the common soldiers, while working or marching, without impairing his dignity as general. He found in Judaea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th, all old troops of Vespasian's. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied by twenty cohorts of allied troops and eight squadrons of cavalry, by the two kings Agrippa and Sohemus, by the auxiliary forces of king Antiochus, by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbours, and, lastly, by many persons brought from the capital and from Italy by private hopes of securing the yet unengaged affections of the Prince. With this force Titus entered the enemy's territory, preserving strict order on his march, reconnoitring every spot, and always ready to give battle. At last he encamped near Jerusalem.
2. As I am about to relate the last days of a famous city, it seems appropriate to throw some light on its origin. Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete, who settled on the nearest coast of Africa about the time when Saturn was driven from his throne by the power of Jupiter. Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighbouring tribe, the Idaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name. Others assert that in the reign of Isis the overflowing population of Egypt, led by Hierosolymus and Judas, discharged itself into the neighbouring countries. Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbours to seek a new dwelling-place. Others describe them as an Assyrian horde who, not having sufficient territory, took possession of part of Egypt, and founded cities of their own in what is called the Hebrew country, lying on the borders of Syria. Others, again, assign a very distinguished origin to the Jews, alleging that they were the Solymi, a nation celebrated in the poems of Homer, who called the city which they founded Hierosolyma after their own name.
3. Most writers, however, agree in stating that once a disease, which horribly disfigured the body, broke out over Egypt; that king Bocchoris, seeking a remedy, consulted the oracle of Hammon, and was bidden to cleanse his realm, and to convey into some foreign land this race detested by the gods. The people, who had been collected after diligent search, finding themselves left in a desert, sat for the most part in a stupor of grief, till one of the exiles, Moyses by name, warned them not to look for any relief from God or man, forsaken as they were of both, but to trust to themselves, taking for their heaven-sent leader that man who should first help them to be quit of their present misery. They agreed, and in utter ignorance began to advance at random. Nothing, however, distressed them so much as the scarcity of water, and they had sunk ready to perish in all directions over the plain, when a herd of wild asses was seen to retire from their pasture to a rock shaded by trees. Moyses followed them, and, guided by the appearance of a grassy spot, discovered an abundant spring of water. This furnished relief. After a continuous journey for six days, on the seventh they possessed themselves of a country, from which they expelled the inhabitants, and in which they founded a city and a temple.
4. Moyses, wishing to secure for the future his authority over the nation, gave them a novel form of worship, opposed to all that is practised by other men. Things sacred with us, with them have no sanctity, while they allow what with us is forbidden. In their holy place they have consecrated an image of the animal by whose guidance they found deliverance from their long and thirsty wanderings. They slay the ram, seemingly in derision of Hammon, and they sacrifice the ox, because the Egyptians worship it as Apis. They abstain from swine's flesh, in consideration of what they suffered when they were infected by the leprosy to which this animal is liable. By their frequent fasts they still bear witness to the long hunger of former days, and the Jewish bread, made without leaven, is retained as a memorial of their hurried seizure of corn. We are told that the rest of the seventh day was adopted, because this day brought with it a termination of their toils; after a while the charm of indolence beguilded them into giving up the seventh year also to inaction. But others say that it is an observance in honour of Saturn, either from the primitive elements of their faith having been transmitted from the Idaei, who are said to have shared the flight of that God, and to have founded the race, or from the circumstance that of the seven stars which rule the destinies of men Saturn moves in the highest orbit and with the mightiest power, and that many of the heavenly bodies complete their revolutions and courses in multiples of seven.
5. This worship, however introduced, is upheld by its antiquity; all their other customs, which are at once perverse and disgusting, owe their strength to their very badness. The most degraded out of other races, scorning their national beliefs, brought to them their contributions and presents. This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to shew compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies. They sit apart at meals, they sleep apart, and though, as a nation, they are singularly prone to lust, they abstain from intercourse with foreign women; among themselves nothing is unlawful. Circumcision was adopted by them as a mark of difference from other men. Those who come over to their religion adopt the practice, and have this lesson first instilled into them, to despise all gods, to disown their country, and set at nought parents, children, and brethren. Still they provide for the increase of their numbers. It is a crime among them to kill any newly-born infant. They hold that the souls of all who perish in battle or by the hands of the executioner are immortal. Hence a passion for propagating their race and a contempt for death. They are wont to bury rather than to burn their dead, following in this the Egyptian custom; they bestow the same care on the dead, and they hold the same belief about the lower world. Quite different is their faith about things divine. The Egyptians worship many animals and images of monstrous form; the Jews have purely mental conceptions of Deity, as one in essence. They call those profane who make representations of God in human shape out of perishable materials. They believe that Being to be supreme and eternal, neither capable of representation, nor of decay. They therefore do not allow any images to stand in their cities, much less in their temples. This flattery is not paid to their kings, nor this honour to our Emperors. From the fact, however, that their priests used to chant to the music of flutes and cymbals, and to wear garlands of ivy, and that a golden vine was found in the temple, some have thought that they worshipped father Liber, the conqueror of the East, though their institutions do not by any means harmonize with the theory; for Liber established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish religion is tasteless and mean.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Swenet, what about the references in the writings of the Old Testament, Strabo, and Joesphus? All of the following attest to a light and dark skinned population in the ancient Levantine region.
If I'm not mistaken, some of the references you seem to elude to (e.g., Strabo), are examples of what I said earlier, i.e., that such remarks are simply myths being reitorated, giving the false impression that each Greco Roman author who subscribed to that myth, independently validated/came to the conclusioon that there was an actual self governed, settled black presence in Syrio-Palestinia that can be assigned to Phoenecian or Israelite identity.
Can you be more specific about each of the sources you mentioned earlier?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Mike111, I read the first three paragraphs, and already see it's going nowhere. Bold the text you think is the most relevant to you argument. Right now, I'm not in the mood for ''Jupiter fought Saturn this'', and ''some people say Crete that''. Don't make debating you more of a pain than it already is.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Swenet - I see that you and typeZeiss have the same disease: "Talk a lot, but say nothing" and don't like to read. For sure, that makes both of you formidable debaters - in your own minds.
Please feel free to post on the thread topic, if you wish. By its nature, such posts will mostly be opinion, which is right up your alley.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Swenet - I see that you and typeZeiss have the same disease: "Talk a lot, but say nothing" and don't like to read. For sure, that makes both of you formidable debaters - in your own minds.
C'mon mikey boy, you know darn well the closest you ever got to proving a black Levant, was passing two broad faced/nosed MK Egyptian statues for being Syrio-Palestinians.
Oh, and the other time was when you tried to identify a set of black Egyptian priest as Palestinians, even though you were told the glyps surrounding them proved they were Egyptian natives.
Why the need to commit fraud if your case is as solid as you say it is?
The Predynastic Lower Egyptian Maadi remains showed that the inhabitants had tibia that were - on ave - 6.9 cm longer than the remains at Byblos, and the Merimde folks had even more incompatible limb lengths, compared to the same Syrio-Palestinians. That's a hell of a lot of conflicting ancestry for ya.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^He,he,he:
Finally!
You're an Albino boy claiming an Albino Levant.
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.
Damn you Albinos are silly.
let's see what you got besides your mouth Albino boy.
Hint; that's slang for "Show me some Proof!"
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
You've been put to sleep already, why are you still talking? Roll over and take a nap.
Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. Mean femur length in males from Maadi was similar to that recorded at Byblos and the early Bronze Age male from Kabri, but mean tibia length in Maadi males was 6.9cm longer than that at Byblos. At Merimde both bones were longer than at the other sites shown, but again, the tibia was longer proportionate to femurs than at Byblos (Fig 6.2), reinforcing the impression of an African rather than Levantine affinity.
Patricia Smith, 2002
^It should be noted that the limbs of the Pred. Egyptians had other tropical characteristics that distinguished them from their Eastern neighbours; their limbs were more slender.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Swenet - I see that you and typeZeiss have the same disease: "Talk a lot, but say nothing" and don't like to read. For sure, that makes both of you formidable debaters - in your own minds.
Please feel free to post on the thread topic, if you wish. By its nature, such posts will mostly be opinion, which is right up your alley.
*chuckle* This is comical to say the least. You don't seem to be the brightest star in the sky. I have provided you with books by scholars and videos by scholars proving my point. You on the other hand have babbled endlessly based off of opinion.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The high "IQ" kid thinks there's evidence for David et al. lol
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
We must be talking about two totally different Israel Finkelsteins.
"In this iconoclastic and provocative work, leading scholars Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman draw on recent archaeological research to present a dramatically revised portrait of ancient Israel and its neighbors. They argue that crucial evidence (or a telling lack of evidence) at digs in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon suggests that many of the most famous stories in the Bible -- the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua's conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon's vast empire -- reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts."
If I can find some of the videos with him on youtube I will, in them he has said repeatedly there is no proof for any of these people nor their mythological story. I will look at the other stuff you suggested though.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
^ LOL! the signature nonreply. Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
I find it interesting she didn't ask Dr. Finkelstein about his opinions concerning these various Stela. I am going to search to see what I can find concerning his opinion on what they mean. She has a clear agenda as she admits in the end, which could possible be the reason why she didn't ask Finkelstein about his opinion concerning the Stela.
My last bit will be from the book THe Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand
I am not going to type out what it says or photocopy it, basically because its late and I don't feel like it. However if you can make your way to Barnes and Noble or some other book store, that might have it or even the library, I will draw your attention to pages 115 - 122. The title of the section is "The Earth Rebels Against Mythhistory". I will say this. He says, the archeological evidence shows the people in these settlements "judea" and "israel" were polytheist and not some mythical Monotheistic roaming Jews. He also addresses the Stelas you mentioned. There also seems to be some controversy in terms of translation for the Dan Stela. He (Shlomo Sand) doesn't mention that controversy, but one of the videos I provided does and so do some articles on the net.
There are about four more parts to this video. Im tired, don't feel like posting the rest. You will see them on the side when you watch the video, just click them to finish off the series.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
^ LOL! the signature nonreply.
He did reply. Why do you say he didn't? He gave some things he felt were evidence and it was up to me to research it. I still have to dig a little deeper but from what I have seen so far, the "evidence" has a few interpretations that can be applied to them. Which means to me, its not definitive prove for the mythical land of a Jewish people.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
DNA evidence shows that on their paternal side Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from the Middle East, not from Khazars or other indigenous European peoples There is no trace of any Turkic language in the language spoken by Eastern European Jews, Yiddish . An article in Science states that Sand's hypotheses "clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots". According to Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, Ostrer's study "clearly shows a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations."
in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.
Historians divide the world's 13 million living Jews into three groups: Middle Eastern, or Oriental, Jews; Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal; and Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. Although the Bible traces Jewish roots back to the time of Abraham some 4000 years ago, most historians have concluded that the actual Jewish identity dates to only a little over 2000 years ago.
The origins of today's Jews have been less clear, especially those of the Ashkenazis, who make up 90% of American Jews and nearly 50% of Israeli Jews. Ashkenazi Jews settled in Germany in the 9th century C.E. and developed their own language, Yiddish. Some writers, notably Arthur Koestler in his 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe, have argued that the Ashkenazis stem from a Turkic tribe in Central Asia called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. And historian Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward.
Such notions, however, clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots. In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.
Ostrer and his colleagues analyzed nuclear DNA from blood samples taken from a total of 237 Ashkenazi and Middle Eastern Jews in New York City and Sephardic Jews in Seattle, Washington; Greece; Italy; and Israel. They compared these with DNA from about 2800 presumably non-Jewish individuals from around the world. The team used several analytical approaches to calculate how genetically similar the Jewish groups were to each other and to the non-Jewish groups, including a method called identity by descent (IBD), which is often used to determine how closely two individuals are related.
Individuals within each Jewish group had high levels of IBD, roughly equivalent to that of fourth or fifth cousins. Although each of the three Jewish groups showed genetic admixture (interbreeding) with nearby non-Jews, they shared many genetic features, suggesting common roots that the team estimated went back more than 2000 years. Ashkenazi Jews, whose genetic profiles indicated between 30% to 60% admixture with Europeans, nevertheless clustered more closely with Middle Eastern and Sephardic Jews, a finding the researchers say is inconsistent with the Khazar hypothesis. "I would hope that these observations would put the idea that Jewishness is just a cultural construct to rest," Ostrer says.
Other researchers praise the work. It's the largest to date on this question, and using the IBD method to tackle it is "innovative," says geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, says that "this is clearly showing a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations." Nevertheless, says Rosenberg, although the study "does not appear to support" the Khazar hypothesis, it doesn't entirely eliminate it either.
The study does not address the status of groups whose claim to Jewishness has been controversial, such as Ethiopian Jews, the Lemba from southern Africa, and several groups from India and China. But given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture."
Follow ScienceNOW
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
I find it interesting she didn't ask Dr. Finkelstein about his opinions concerning these various Stela. I am going to search to see what I can find concerning his opinion on what they mean. She has a clear agenda as she admits in the end, which could possible be the reason why she didn't ask Finkelstein about his opinion concerning the Stela.
My last bit will be from the book THe Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand
I am not going to type out what it says or photocopy it, basically because its late and I don't feel like it. However if you can make your way to Barnes and Noble or some other book store, that might have it or even the library, I will draw your attention to pages 115 - 122. The title of the section is "The Earth Rebels Against Mythhistory". I will say this. He says, the archeological evidence shows the people in these settlements "judea" and "israel" were polytheist and not some mythical Monotheistic roaming Jews. He also addresses the Stelas you mentioned. There also seems to be some controversy in terms of translation for the Dan Stela. He (Shlomo Sand) doesn't mention that controversy, but one of the videos I provided does and so do some articles on the net.
There are about four more parts to this video. Im tired, don't feel like posting the rest. You will see them on the side when you watch the video, just click them to finish off the series.
Thanks.
I haven't watched the videos, but I will watch them later this day. Finkelstein's position is that the stories surrounding David, have characteristics to them that are suggestive of anachronism, i.e., they contain references to both more recent events, as well as older events.
Examples are, the armour that Goliath was wearing (which is typically Greek, and didn't appear on the scene until much later [four millennia to be exact]), and the depiction of king David as a member of a stalking group of bandits, which, according to Finkelstein, calls to mind Armarna-like scenario's, wherein the Habiru bandits would roam the Levant and harrass settled populations, similar to how they (the Habiru) are depicted in the Amarna letters.
Finkelstein totally dismisses many of the stories that take place in bronze age Israel (3330bc-1200bc), but takes into account that they may contain memories of actual events. If I'm not mistaken, he doesn't say king David was not a historical character (he wouldn't have the evidence), only that the myths that surround him, as well as some of the mentioned place names in which some of the action ocurred, are highly suggestive of being fabricated. He theorizes that the historicity of many biblical references is more or less intact between common era, and the Iron age (sorry, forgot which phase), and that things get more and more questionable, the more one goes back in time.
He considers many of the biblical characters that post date the aforementioned junction (some point in time during the Iron age), to be historical kings and prophets.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
^ LOL! the signature nonreply.
He did reply. Why do you say he didn't? He gave some things he felt were evidence and it was up to me to research it. I still have to dig a little deeper but from what I have seen so far, the "evidence" has a few interpretations that can be applied to them. Which means to me, its not definitive prove for the mythical land of a Jewish people. [/QB]
As you stay longer on this site, you'll notice that Angelina likes to chase posters around and attack them after someone has shut her down intellectually.
She will hunt them down in other threads, like the attention seeking whore that she is, and get back at them, because she's still butthurt from being intellectually owned in some other thread.
Note that she doesn't shun at lying either; to get back at people, she will openly lie if she knows she has no ammunition.
The above, where she says my post is a non-reply, is an example of her being a big fat attention craving liar.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: DNA evidence shows that on their paternal side Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from the Middle East, not from Khazars or other indigenous European peoples There is no trace of any Turkic language in the language spoken by Eastern European Jews, Yiddish . An article in Science states that Sand's hypotheses "clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots". According to Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, Ostrer's study "clearly shows a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations."
in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.
Historians divide the world's 13 million living Jews into three groups: Middle Eastern, or Oriental, Jews; Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal; and Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. Although the Bible traces Jewish roots back to the time of Abraham some 4000 years ago, most historians have concluded that the actual Jewish identity dates to only a little over 2000 years ago.
The origins of today's Jews have been less clear, especially those of the Ashkenazis, who make up 90% of American Jews and nearly 50% of Israeli Jews. Ashkenazi Jews settled in Germany in the 9th century C.E. and developed their own language, Yiddish. Some writers, notably Arthur Koestler in his 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe, have argued that the Ashkenazis stem from a Turkic tribe in Central Asia called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. And historian Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward.
Such notions, however, clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots. In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.
Ostrer and his colleagues analyzed nuclear DNA from blood samples taken from a total of 237 Ashkenazi and Middle Eastern Jews in New York City and Sephardic Jews in Seattle, Washington; Greece; Italy; and Israel. They compared these with DNA from about 2800 presumably non-Jewish individuals from around the world. The team used several analytical approaches to calculate how genetically similar the Jewish groups were to each other and to the non-Jewish groups, including a method called identity by descent (IBD), which is often used to determine how closely two individuals are related.
Individuals within each Jewish group had high levels of IBD, roughly equivalent to that of fourth or fifth cousins. Although each of the three Jewish groups showed genetic admixture (interbreeding) with nearby non-Jews, they shared many genetic features, suggesting common roots that the team estimated went back more than 2000 years. Ashkenazi Jews, whose genetic profiles indicated between 30% to 60% admixture with Europeans, nevertheless clustered more closely with Middle Eastern and Sephardic Jews, a finding the researchers say is inconsistent with the Khazar hypothesis. "I would hope that these observations would put the idea that Jewishness is just a cultural construct to rest," Ostrer says.
Other researchers praise the work. It's the largest to date on this question, and using the IBD method to tackle it is "innovative," says geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, says that "this is clearly showing a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations." Nevertheless, says Rosenberg, although the study "does not appear to support" the Khazar hypothesis, it doesn't entirely eliminate it either.
The study does not address the status of groups whose claim to Jewishness has been controversial, such as Ethiopian Jews, the Lemba from southern Africa, and several groups from India and China. But given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture."
Follow ScienceNOW
I actually saw a very good study done on Ashkenazis. When I get a chance I will post it. Basically what it said was the "rabbinical" class showed relations to "shepardic" jews. Doesn't mean middle east mind you. Shephardics could also be found in Spain, Italy and many other places. However the average Ashkenazis showed DNA that was related to Slavic people, not Sephardic jews. Again when I find the study I will post it.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Typezeiss: So your proof is the bible which is a corrupted book? Are you aware there is no archeological proof for a kingdom of Israel, a Solomon, a David, a Jesus ?
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there actually is extra biblical Syrio-Palestinian evidence for David and some of the other characters mentioned in the bible.
As for the Aethiopian Syrio-Palestinians, the Greco-Roman references to them are obviously mythical in nature, and hence, why there are no stand alone Greco-Roman references to large groups of self-governed settled blacks in that region (to my knowledge, surviving evidence points only to indigenous black Asian bedouins or black immigrants to various Israelite cities), without the reference itself being in some form or shape entangled with the Cepheus myth.
can you provide such evidence, such as books etc? As far as I have read there is NO proof for any of the prophets in the bible. Also, please, I don't want pictures from flickr, can you provide actual scholarly work showing proof for a King David who ruled over Israel. I should add, someone like Josephus is useless, he is well after the fact and a Jew himself, which would necessitate him perpetuating the myth.
You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
I find it interesting she didn't ask Dr. Finkelstein about his opinions concerning these various Stela. I am going to search to see what I can find concerning his opinion on what they mean. She has a clear agenda as she admits in the end, which could possible be the reason why she didn't ask Finkelstein about his opinion concerning the Stela.
My last bit will be from the book THe Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand
I am not going to type out what it says or photocopy it, basically because its late and I don't feel like it. However if you can make your way to Barnes and Noble or some other book store, that might have it or even the library, I will draw your attention to pages 115 - 122. The title of the section is "The Earth Rebels Against Mythhistory". I will say this. He says, the archeological evidence shows the people in these settlements "judea" and "israel" were polytheist and not some mythical Monotheistic roaming Jews. He also addresses the Stelas you mentioned. There also seems to be some controversy in terms of translation for the Dan Stela. He (Shlomo Sand) doesn't mention that controversy, but one of the videos I provided does and so do some articles on the net.
There are about four more parts to this video. Im tired, don't feel like posting the rest. You will see them on the side when you watch the video, just click them to finish off the series.
Thanks.
I haven't watched the videos, but I will watch them later this day. David Finkelstein's position is that the stories surrounding David, have characteristics to them that are suggestive of anachronism, i.e., they contain references to both more recent events, as well as older events.
Examples are, the armour that Goliath was wearing (which is typically Greek, and didn't appear on the scene until much later [four millennia to be exact]), and the depiction of king David as a member of a stalking group of bandits, which, according to Finkelstein, calls to mind Armarna-like scenario's, wherein the Habiru bandits would roam the Levant and harrass settled populations, similar to how they (the Habiru) are depicted in the Amarna letters.
Finkelstein totally dismisses many of the stories that take place in bronze age Israel (3330bc-1200bc), but takes into account that they may contain memories of actual events. If I'm not mistaken, he doesn't say king David was not a historical character (he wouldn't have the evidence), only that the myths that surround him, as well as some of the mentioned place names in which some of the action ocurred, are highly suggestive of being fabricated. He theorizes that the historicity of many biblical references is more or less intact between common era, and the Iron age (sorry, forgot which phase), and that things get more and more questionable, the more one goes back in time.
He considers many of the biblical characters that post date the aforementioned junction (some point in time during the Iron age), to be historical kings and prophets.
Ah ok, see. You said DAVID FInkelstein, I am talkin about ISRAEL Finkelstein. I figured we had two totally different people in mind! Israel Finkelstein believes it all to be a myth and constantly says there is NO proof for a historical Jewish people as outlined in the Bible. He also says when you dig down, not only do you not find material to support the claims but the people living in these areas were polytheist, not monotheist. You have to remember, the current day people calling themselves Jews have a very real reason to lie, other wise they have no claim to that land, and can be seen in their proper light which is thieves with a invented history.
As for the stories, I agree with you 100%, I do believe they relate to other people, just not who we think. I believe those old kings they talk about i.e. David, Solomon, Amos, etc. were Egyptian Kings, not mythical hebrew kings. The story of David and Goliath exactly matches the Story on Sinhue also, another Egyptian story. I believe Moses to have been Akenaton. Especially when you think about the "Aten" which he worshipped and the "Aden" which is mentioned in the bible i.e. Adenai *my lord*.
My point is, the story of the Jews isn't real in that there was no united kingdom, there was no monotheist first people there, its all a lie. Watching one of the videos I posted they claim to have evidence for a Omri which was a king. However the lady in the video seemed to have asked Israel Finkelstein on everything found to get his view from a archeological standpoint but she seems to have forget to ask him about his views on the Stelas and on the findings that supposedly substantiate the story of King Omri. Which makes me think there is something fishy about that tale as well.
As for the Habiru, another problem with that is. If you look at Assyrian documents, Phoenician and Egyptian you get the real picture of who they are. Habiru was a title, if I remember right it just meant bandits or something like that. And it was applied to a NUMBER of unrelated people. A good book on that I believe is the Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman, he has supporting documents that discusses that. If I have time I will look in the book and give you a page number. Will have to be later though.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
He,he,he:
This is going to be GOOD!
Albinos trying to "RE-build" the fantasy of an Albino "ANYTHING" outside of Central Asia.
Have fun kids.
you know what's coming when you have finished producing your ha,ha,ha, "evidence".
But before I send you back to your he,he "research" lets review what you have produced so far.
Quotes from:
The Jew - Prof. Israel Finkelstein - Tel Aviv University.
The Jew - Prof. Shlomo Sand - Tel Aviv University
Another Jew - Sarah A. Tishkoff, PhD. University of Pennsylvania.
A BBC Dcoumentary.
SURELY YOU JEST!
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: He,he,he:
This is going to be GOOD!
Albinos trying to "RE-build" the fantasy of an Albino "ANYTHING" outside of Central Asia.
Have fun kids.
you know what's coming when you have finished producing your ha,ha,ha, "evidence".
But before I send you back to your he,he "research" lets review what you have produced so far.
Quotes from:
The Jew - Prof. Israel Finkelstein - Tel Aviv University.
The Jew - Prof. Shlomo Sand - Tel Aviv University
Another Jew - Sarah A. Tishkoff, PhD. University of Pennsylvania.
A BBC Dcoumentary.
SURELY YOU JEST!
Is english your first language? Are you actually reading whats being said or you just making it up as you go along? Finkelstein and Shlomo arent trying to rebuild ANYTHING. They are tearing down the falsehoods of supposed Jewish history.
The fact that Finkelstein and Sand are Jews gives them credibility in this subject. Those two would have EVERY reason in the world to lie and say there was a kingdom of Israel or a King David etc. However, they have academic integrity and admit there is NO evidence to support a historical Jewish people; who believed in monotheism under mythical God ordained Kings, in a land we now call Israel. The evidence just doesn't support it.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Oh, so you're BOTH saying that Canaan was populated by a diverse grouping of Black people, some locally evolved, some from the south, some from Anatolia, some Anatolian transplants from Babylon, and some Mediterraneans.
Well I am very sorry that I misunderstood you. Please continue on.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: [Ah ok, see. You said DAVID FInkelstein, I am talkin about ISRAEL Finkelstein. I figured we had two totally different people in mind! Israel Finkelstein believes it all to be a myth and constantly says there is NO proof for a historical Jewish people as outlined in the Bible. He also says when you dig down, not only do you not find material to support the claims but the people living in these areas were polytheist, not monotheist. You have to remember, the current day people calling themselves Jews have a very real reason to lie, other wise they have no claim to that land, and can be seen in their proper light which is thieves with a invented history.
As for the stories, I agree with you 100%, I do believe they relate to other people, just not who we think. I believe those old kings they talk about i.e. David, Solomon, Amos, etc. were Egyptian Kings, not mythical hebrew kings. The story of David and Goliath exactly matches the Story on Sinhue also, another Egyptian story. I believe Moses to have been Akenaton. Especially when you think about the "Aten" which he worshipped and the "Aden" which is mentioned in the bible i.e. Adenai *my lord*.
My point is, the story of the Jews isn't real in that there was no united kingdom, there was no monotheist first people there, its all a lie. Watching one of the videos I posted they claim to have evidence for a Omri which was a king. However the lady in the video seemed to have asked Israel Finkelstein on everything found to get his view from a archeological standpoint but she seems to have forget to ask him about his views on the Stelas and on the findings that supposedly substantiate the story of King Omri. Which makes me think there is something fishy about that tale as well.
As for the Habiru, another problem with that is. If you look at Assyrian documents, Phoenician and Egyptian you get the real picture of who they are. Habiru was a title, if I remember right it just meant bandits or something like that. And it was applied to a NUMBER of unrelated people. A good book on that I believe is the Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman, he has supporting documents that discusses that. If I have time I will look in the book and give you a page number. Will have to be later though.
Actually, we are talking about the same archaeologist. As far as I know, there is no other prominent biblical archaeologist that goes by the name of 'Finkelstein'. I did not properly edit my post; the 'David' that precedes 'Finkelstein' was a remnant of an argument I wanted to make about king David, that wasn't fully deleted. My bad, it's removed now.
You should know Finkelstein is not a minimalist (someone who denies the historicity of Israel and the events of the bible). He is of the mindset that the events/characters that are disputed, were documented by one of the many religious sects in ancient Israel, in a much later time period (like I said in my previes post, this was somewhere in the Iron age), and hence, why the accounts that predate this junction of priestly literacy (Bronze age Israelite stories), are not historically reliable, and also biased with religious agenda.
I get the feeling you're not really listening to Dr Finkelstein, and that you're using him to support your own views, like some other poster recently did. I'm going to watch the videos right now, because I'm positive his interviews are entirely consistent with my descriptions of his work. Some other poster recently claimed the same things you have, but there simply is not a quote in existence of him, where he says what you guys are attributing to him.
quote:"In this iconoclastic and provocative work, leading scholars Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman draw on recent archaeological research to present a dramatically revised portrait of ancient Israel and its neighbors. They argue that crucial evidence (or a telling lack of evidence) at digs in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon suggests that many of the most famous stories in the Bible -- the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua's conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon's vast empire -- reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts."
^This discription of his book, that you posted earlier, is an accurate description of his work, but it doesn't gel with what you're saying about his work. It clearly says that he (Finkelstein) offers a revised portrait of ancient Israel (which shows he's not questioning the historicity of ancient Israel). The quote also outlines what exactly is disputed; most of the important Bronze age and early Iron age events. It says it was written down by later authors, and those later authors should obviously be interpretated as ancient late Iron age Israelites.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You said you're familiar with Finkelstein's work, I don't understand how you can read his work, and come out saying there is no historical proof of any of the biblical characters, but anyway, if you want books on the historicity of Ancient Israel, and some of the biblical characters I recommend his work.
If you want direct examples of the existence of biblical prophets/kings, here are historical documents:
-Tel Dan Stele -Mesha Stele -Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
^ LOL! the signature nonreply.
He did reply. Why do you say he didn't? He gave some things he felt were evidence and it was up to me to research it. I still have to dig a little deeper but from what I have seen so far, the "evidence" has a few interpretations that can be applied to them. Which means to me, its not definitive prove for the mythical land of a Jewish people.
As you stay longer on this site, you'll notice that Angelina likes to chase posters around and attack them after someone has shut her down intellectually.
She will hunt them down in other threads, like the attention seeking whore that she is, and get back at them, because she's still butthurt from being intellectually owned in some other thread.
Note that she doesn't shun at lying either; to get back at people, she will openly lie if she knows she has no ammunition.
The above, where she says my post is a non-reply, is an example of her being a big fat attention craving liar. [/QB]
LOL You have no proof of your mythical Jews and you know it. Like all die hard religious fanatics your "sources" are smoke screens. Its really comical to watch your nonreplies. Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: [Ah ok, see. You said DAVID FInkelstein, I am talkin about ISRAEL Finkelstein. I figured we had two totally different people in mind! Israel Finkelstein believes it all to be a myth and constantly says there is NO proof for a historical Jewish people as outlined in the Bible. He also says when you dig down, not only do you not find material to support the claims but the people living in these areas were polytheist, not monotheist. You have to remember, the current day people calling themselves Jews have a very real reason to lie, other wise they have no claim to that land, and can be seen in their proper light which is thieves with a invented history.
As for the stories, I agree with you 100%, I do believe they relate to other people, just not who we think. I believe those old kings they talk about i.e. David, Solomon, Amos, etc. were Egyptian Kings, not mythical hebrew kings. The story of David and Goliath exactly matches the Story on Sinhue also, another Egyptian story. I believe Moses to have been Akenaton. Especially when you think about the "Aten" which he worshipped and the "Aden" which is mentioned in the bible i.e. Adenai *my lord*.
My point is, the story of the Jews isn't real in that there was no united kingdom, there was no monotheist first people there, its all a lie. Watching one of the videos I posted they claim to have evidence for a Omri which was a king. However the lady in the video seemed to have asked Israel Finkelstein on everything found to get his view from a archeological standpoint but she seems to have forget to ask him about his views on the Stelas and on the findings that supposedly substantiate the story of King Omri. Which makes me think there is something fishy about that tale as well.
As for the Habiru, another problem with that is. If you look at Assyrian documents, Phoenician and Egyptian you get the real picture of who they are. Habiru was a title, if I remember right it just meant bandits or something like that. And it was applied to a NUMBER of unrelated people. A good book on that I believe is the Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman, he has supporting documents that discusses that. If I have time I will look in the book and give you a page number. Will have to be later though.
Actually, we are talking about the same archaeologist. As far as I know, there is no other prominent biblical archaeologist that goes by the name of 'Finkelstein'. I did not properly edit my post; the 'David' that precedes 'Finkelstein' was a remnant of an argument I wanted to make about king David, that wasn't fully deleted. My bad, it's removed now.
You should know Finkelstein is not a minimalist (someone who denies the historicity of Israel and the events of the bible). He is of the mindset that the events/characters that are disputed, were documented by one of the many religious sects in ancient Israel, in a much later time period (like I said in my previes post, this was somewhere in the Iron age), and hence, why the accounts that predate this junction of priestly literacy (Bronze age Israelite stories), are not historically reliable, and also biased with religious agenda.
I get the feeling you're not really listening to Dr Finkelstein, and that you're using him to support your own views, like some other poster recently did. I'm going to watch the videos right now, because I'm positive his interviews are entirely consistent with my descriptions of his work. Some other poster recently claimed the same things you have, but there simply is not a quote in existence of him, where he says what you guys are attributing to him.
quote:"In this iconoclastic and provocative work, leading scholars Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman draw on recent archaeological research to present a dramatically revised portrait of ancient Israel and its neighbors. They argue that crucial evidence (or a telling lack of evidence) at digs in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon suggests that many of the most famous stories in the Bible -- the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua's conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon's vast empire -- reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts."
^This discription of his book, that you posted earlier, is an accurate description of his work, but it doesn't gel with what you're saying about his work. It clearly says that he (Finkelstein) offers a revised portrait of ancient Israel (which shows he's not questioning the historicity of ancient Israel). The quote also outlines what exactly is disputed; most of the important Bronze age and early Iron age events. It says it was written down by later authors, and those later authors should obviously be interpretated as ancient late Iron age Israelites.
Ah ok well then I suggest you watch the videos and see what Finkelstein says for himself. He isn't saying what your claiming.
As for me not listening to Finkelstein that's comical. He isn't talking rocket science, its very simple to gather what he is saying.
1. The biblical stories are a myth 2. when you dig down what you find is polytheist NOT some mythical monotheistic people
Its that simple. The current group of people calling themselves Jews can only really date their beliefs back to Herod's time.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Oh, so you're BOTH saying that Canaan was populated by a diverse grouping of Black people, some locally evolved, some from the south, some from Anatolia, some Anatolian transplants from Babylon, and some Mediterraneans.
Well I am very sorry that I misunderstood you. Please continue on.
I am not saying what the people were, in that area. I have no clue. I do believe they were black though. because the Phoenicians, which were described as Ethiop, so I have no problem with saying the people in that area were probably black or at the very least a mixed population of blacks and whites from somewhere else. I really would love to see what the people in "Israel" and "Judea" were racially. I do have a sneaking suspicion they were probably black of some sort. At least during the time of the supposed King David. In one of the videos I posted they found one of the Egyptian Neters in coastal Palestine. And when they dig down to the time of when David supposedly lived, they find nothing but supposed "polytheist" with different statues. It would be interesting to see if these statues are of neters or not.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Thanks;
When using a word that most people would not normally understand, It's considered good manners to define it for them.
The Egyptians did not call their deities 'Gods' but Neters (ntrw). An Apple is still an Apple, even if called something else.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Thanks;
When using a word that most people would not normally understand, It's considered good manners to define it for them.
The Egyptians did not call their deities 'Gods' but Neters (ntrw). An Apple is still an Apple, even if called something else.
I used the word Neter because I do not agree with the term "gods" being used. They were not "gods", they were divine emanations. If you read the book "The Gods of the Egyptians" Volume 1 by Wallace Budge, he explains the problems with the word Neter, and the problems with translating it. He says for lack of a better word, Europeans came up with gods. However they are translating that based on their cultural thinking. Egyptians were Africans and as such, it needs to be translated based on THEIR cultural norms etc. So I don't use the word "gods" to discuss the neters, I feel that word is inaccurate to say the least. They believed in One true God, who was hidden and not understandable. They believed He can only be understood via his attributes/emanations. As such, if you study those emanations you can draw closer to him. Islam has the same concept in relation to the 99 names of Allah. You find the same concept in Ife as well.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
Guys I started a new thread for the history of the jews discussion. I didn't want to continue hijacking this thread
I was going to cut and paste all the discussions but I suck at embedding the quotes. Maybe if ausar can help us out?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^For the record, I do not defend the "Biblical" Canaan, I simply acknowledge that "Someone" ruled those kingdoms. That they were "polytheist" is supported by many sources, including the "reported" contents of the "Dead Sea Scrolls".
The Habiru are well documented as invaders in the Amarna letters.
As to the appearance of the Canaanites, there is abundant artifacts that document their appearance, that's why I was so amused by Swenet's direction.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
^^
Then we are on the same page friend! Although if the people there were Egyptians or believed in the Egyptian religion then I do not call them polytheist. They were monotheist. The Egyptians clearly said they believed in one God (Amen), the same name Muslims and Christians use to close out their prayers too. They also clearly said from Him these divine emanations sprang. I am not very familiar with Christianity in terms of theology, but I do know we in Islam have the same concept i.e. 99 names of Allah. So to call it Polytheism is wrong to me. it is more of the Europeans misunderstanding and misinterpreting African culture and religion.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: DNA evidence shows that on their paternal side Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from the Middle East, not from Khazars or other indigenous European peoples There is no trace of any Turkic language in the language spoken by Eastern European Jews, Yiddish . An article in Science states that Sand's hypotheses "clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots". According to Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, Ostrer's study "clearly shows a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations."
in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.
Historians divide the world's 13 million living Jews into three groups: Middle Eastern, or Oriental, Jews; Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal; and Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. Although the Bible traces Jewish roots back to the time of Abraham some 4000 years ago, most historians have concluded that the actual Jewish identity dates to only a little over 2000 years ago.
The origins of today's Jews have been less clear, especially those of the Ashkenazis, who make up 90% of American Jews and nearly 50% of Israeli Jews. Ashkenazi Jews settled in Germany in the 9th century C.E. and developed their own language, Yiddish. Some writers, notably Arthur Koestler in his 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe, have argued that the Ashkenazis stem from a Turkic tribe in Central Asia called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. And historian Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward.
Such notions, however, clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots. In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.
Ostrer and his colleagues analyzed nuclear DNA from blood samples taken from a total of 237 Ashkenazi and Middle Eastern Jews in New York City and Sephardic Jews in Seattle, Washington; Greece; Italy; and Israel. They compared these with DNA from about 2800 presumably non-Jewish individuals from around the world. The team used several analytical approaches to calculate how genetically similar the Jewish groups were to each other and to the non-Jewish groups, including a method called identity by descent (IBD), which is often used to determine how closely two individuals are related.
Individuals within each Jewish group had high levels of IBD, roughly equivalent to that of fourth or fifth cousins. Although each of the three Jewish groups showed genetic admixture (interbreeding) with nearby non-Jews, they shared many genetic features, suggesting common roots that the team estimated went back more than 2000 years. Ashkenazi Jews, whose genetic profiles indicated between 30% to 60% admixture with Europeans, nevertheless clustered more closely with Middle Eastern and Sephardic Jews, a finding the researchers say is inconsistent with the Khazar hypothesis. "I would hope that these observations would put the idea that Jewishness is just a cultural construct to rest," Ostrer says.
Other researchers praise the work. It's the largest to date on this question, and using the IBD method to tackle it is "innovative," says geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, says that "this is clearly showing a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations." Nevertheless, says Rosenberg, although the study "does not appear to support" the Khazar hypothesis, it doesn't entirely eliminate it either.
The study does not address the status of groups whose claim to Jewishness has been controversial, such as Ethiopian Jews, the Lemba from southern Africa, and several groups from India and China. But given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture."
Follow ScienceNOW
***First historic FACT: there are two kinds of TALMUDS the Babylonian and the Palestinian one (Talmud de-Eretz). The third actually would be the Kebra Nagast.
Opening:
**The earliest certain link with Egypt is 664 B.C., the date of the Assyrian sack of the Egyptian capital at Thebes. Although it is often possible to locate earlier events quite precisely relative to each other, neither surviving contemporary documents nor scientific dating methods such as carbon 14, dendrochronology, thermoluminescence, and archaeoastronomy are able to provide the required accuracy to fix these events absolutely in time.
Study identifies genetic signatures for 3.5 million Ashkenazi Jews
NEW YORK — About 3.5 million of today’s Ashkenazi Jews — 40 percent of the total Ashkenazi population — are descended from just four women, a genetic study indicates. Those women apparently lived somewhere in Europe within the last 2,000 years, but not necessarily in the same place or even the same century, said lead author Dr. Doron Behar of the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa, Israel.
He did the work with Karl Skorecki of the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology and others.
Each woman left a genetic signature that shows up in their descendants today, he and colleagues say in a report published online by the American Journal of Human Genetics. Together, their four signatures appear in about 40 percent of Ashkenazi Jews, while being virtually absent in non-Jews and found only rarely in Jews of non-Ashkenazi origin, the researchers said.
They said the total Ashkenazi population is estimated at around 8 million people. The estimated world Jewish population is about 13 million.
Ashkenazi Jews are a group with mainly central and eastern European ancestry. Ultimately, though, they can be traced back to Jews who migrated from Israel to Italy in the first and second centuries, Behar said. Eventually this group moved to Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries and expanded greatly, reaching about 10 million just before World War II, he said.
Maternal lineages traced
The study involved mitochondrial DNA, called mtDNA, which is passed only through the mother. A woman can pass her mtDNA to grandchildren only by having daughters. So mtDNA is “the perfect tool to trace maternal lineages,” Behar said Thursday in a telephone interview.
His study involved analyzing mtDNA from more than 11,000 samples representing 67 populations.
Mike Hammer, who does similar research at the University of Arizona, said he found the work tracing back to just four ancestors “quite plausible ... I think they’ve done a really good job of tackling this question.”
But he said it’s not clear the women lived in Europe.
“They may have existed in the Near East,” Hammer said. “We don’t know exactly where the four women were, but their descendants left a legacy in the population today, whereas ... other women’s descendants did not.”
Behar said the four women he referred to did inherit their genetic signatures from female ancestors who lived in the Near East. But he said he preferred to focus on these later European descendants because they were at the root of the Ashkenazi population explosion.
1 Department of Haematology and Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia 2 Department of Human Genetics, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel 3 Current Address: Blood Bank, Sheba Medical Center, Ramat-Gan 52621, Israel
"The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms"
The origin of Eastern European Jews, (EEJ) by far the largest and most important Ashkenazi population, and their affinities to other Jewish and European populations are still not resolved.
Studies that compared them by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers to European Mediterranean populations revealed that they are closer to Europeans than to other Jewish populations [1-3].
In contrast, according to the Y-chromosomal haplogroups EEJ are closest to the non-Jewish populations of the Eastern Mediterranean (table 3, figure 4).
"EEJ are the largest and most investigated Jewish community, yet their history as Franco-German Jewry is known to us only since their appearance in the 9th century, and their subsequent migration a few hundred years later to Eastern Europe [4,5]. Where did these Jews come from? It seems that they came to Germany and France from Italy [5-8].
It is also possible that some Jews migrated northward from the Italian colonies on the northern shore of the Black Sea [9]. All these Jews are likely the descendents of proselytes.
Conversion to Judaism was common in Rome in the first centuries BC and AD. Judaism gained many followers among all ranks of Roman Society [10-13]."
The autosomal genetic distance analysis presented here clearly demonstrates that the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin.
The resemblance of EEJ to Italians and other European populations portrays them as an autochthonous European population.
**The demographic histories of three Jewish populations exemplify how different demographic patterns make the uniparental markers more reliable for Iraqi (Babylonian) Jews and Yemenite Jews and less reliable for EEJ. Both Yemenite Jews and Iraqi Jews resemble populations from their regions of origin according to autosomal markers [1,3,30-32].
**Babylonian Jews numbered more than a million in the first century AD [35], and constituted the majority of the population in the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris in the 2nd-3rd centuries AD [36]. Gilbert [37] estimates that by 600 AD there were 806,000 Jews in Mesopotamia, and according to Sassoon [38] it was inhabited by about a million Jews in the 7th century. In the 14th century the estimates for Baghdad alone range from 70,000 to hundreds thousands [38].
*By comparing the structure of the STRs network among the various Ashkenazi populations and among the various European non-Jewish populations they reached the conclusion that a single male founder introduced this haplogroup into Ashkenazi Jews in the first millennium.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Welcome!
The Jewish E Project (formerly Jewish E3b Project) is open to all males in Y-DNA haplogroup E and any of its subclades, who have KNOWN Jewish ancestry on their direct paternal line (your father's father's father, etc).
The E haplogroup has been observed in all Jewish groups world wide. One of its major subclades, E1b1b (formerly E3b) is considered to be the 2nd most prevalent haplogroup among the Jewish population.
According to one major paper, Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi Jewish and host non-Jewish European populations E-M35, which defines the E1b1b1 (formerly E3b1) haplogroup, is considered to be the second highest, next to J, for "Founding Jewish Lineages" in Europe. It is found in moderate amounts in all Jewish populations, from Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Kurdish, Yemen, Samaritan and even among Djerba Jewish groups.
“quite plausible ... I think they’ve done a really good job of tackling this question.”
But he said it’s not clear the women lived in Europe.
“They may have existed in the Near East,” Hammer said. “We don’t know exactly where the four women were,...
They don't know. Given the fact that they are Jews, they would have an interest in "proving" a link. Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^That's quite an assemblage of material that you posted Troll Patrol. But you never said what your point or conclusion was.
In any case, regardless of "Supposed" science.
This is an authentic depiction of the people that we call Hebrews.
So is this:
Close-up of a large wall relief depicting Assyrian King Sennacherib’s Attack and conquest of the Judean City of Lachish - 701 B.C. British museum, London - All.
Closer-up
These people, by appearance and genetics, are the same as the Hebrews.
As to Europe: This self-identified Jewish man could plausibly be called the descendant of Hebrews.
These people could most certainly NOT!
(Hasidom)
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Alot of the Tuareg in Mali probably have connection to nomadic Arabic Sahrawi groups in the Sahara.
Absolutely. At the end of the day this whole fiasco starting with Libya in the North and Somalia, Sudan and Ethiopia in the East is all about the West allying with Arab nations to expand Arab control in North Africa through mercenary proxies, spread destabilization and provide an excuse for additional US troops in African affairs....
Also note this:
quote: The Pan-Sahel Initiative, according to a November 7, 2002, [1] by the Office of Counterterrorism, U.S. Department of State, was "a State-led effort to assist Mali, Niger, Chad, and Mauritania in detecting and responding to suspicious movement of people and goods across and within their borders through training, equipment and cooperation. Its goals support two U.S. national security interests in Africa: waging the War on Terrorism and enhancing regional peace and security." It was in 2005 superseded by the larger-scope Trans-Saharan Counterterrorism Initiative, which in turn was incorporated into the United States Africa Command in 2008.
Wierd how the US already anticipated this as far back as 2008 but now decides to turn its back on one of its former allies when **** hits the fan. But in fact, I would not be surprised if the U.S. helped instigate this coup seeing as it is from the military which is/has received US aid and training. And it isn't just the US either.
quote: Although the timing and nature of the coup in Mali is surprising, that a coup occurred is not surprising. Mali's GDP is around $9 billion. The annual US $167 million in military train and equip investment is a huge sum in relation to Mali's GDP. The overwhelming emphasis on military training, arms transfers, and military assistance, is an incitement to create military governments wherever it occurs. The message is that the military knows how to run things, and you need the military to get things done. It would require robust and independent civilian institutions to counter that. Few developing countries enjoy that luxury. Mali was in a better position to maintain a civilian democratic government than most. The US may have had no direct involvement in the coup, or there may have been some knowledge, possibly even encouragement from US sources. I would hope that is not true, but there are plenty of unfortunate precedents. And Captain Sanogo has received a lot of US training, including at the coup school at Ft. Benning.
So lets think about it. The U.S. spends 167 million training the Malian and other neighboring militaries for incursions from the North and what happens as soon as trouble breaks out? The military stages a coup in Mali and the rebels take over half of the country almost effortlessly. Funny but true. This would be a comedy if it was a movie but it isn't and it is much more sinister than that.
All of this is going as if by script:
quote: As the Tuareg trumpeted the success of a decades-old struggle to "liberate" their homeland, their fundamentalist comrades-turned-rivals began imposing sharia law in northern Mali, leaving an embattled junta looking very vulnerable in Bamako.
The United Nations Security Council called for an immediate ceasefire but proposed no firm action to reverse a sequence that has seen a country hailed as a democratic success story descend into chaos in barely two weeks.
The United States, which had grown increasingly concerned since the collapse of Muammar Gaddafi's Libya scattered weapons across the region, has held talks with Algeria, the most powerful of Mali's seven neighbours.
Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika met General Carter Ham, who heads the US Command for Africa (AFRICOM), in Algiers.
They had in-depth talks on the security situation in Mali, Carter told the Algerian news agency.
Military co-operation and anti-terrorism co-ordination were also discussed. The talks were attended by senior officials from both sides, including Washington's top Africa diplomat Johnnie Carson.
Three of al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb's (AQIM) leaders, all Algerians, were spotted in the Malian city of Timbuktu in talks with Iyad Ag Ghaly, a former Tuareg rebel who recently founded the Islamist group Ansar Dine ("Defenders of Faith").
The group has ordered women to wear headscarves and threatened to cut off the hands of thieves in the city, once the jewel in Mali's burgeoning tourism industry.
The junta in Bamako and local residents have alleged that women are being kidnapped and raped by the city's new masters.
Former colonial power France has voiced fears that while the Tuaregs' territorial claims could be addressed through negotiation, the Islamist advance is a threat to the entire region.
The "rebels" take over Timbuktu (so much for the history and manuscripts), the rest of Mali is in chaos as the military cracks down on the people (but not the rebls apparently, so much for US help fighting terror) and the Arab Al-Qaeda forces consolidate with the "rebels" in Mali. Trust me, if this is correct, this will only get worse and not better and all the elements are in place to make sure it gets worse as by now everyone should see the "war or terror" for what it is .... The only thing missing is the "starving Africans" and the ubiquitous NGOs asking for help... oh but wait, that is there too:
quote: The crisis precipitated by Sanogo's coup also sparked concerns about a regional humanitarian emergency, fuelled by conflict and drought.
More than 200,000 people have been forced from their homes since the Tuareg rebels launched their offensive on January 17.
^^^ Mike you think any of these, Assyrian looking the same as Hebrew, are black people?
.
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: The Jewish E Project (formerly Jewish E3b Project) is open to all males in Y-DNA haplogroup E and any of its subclades, who have KNOWN Jewish ancestry on their direct paternal line (your father's father's father, etc).
The E haplogroup has been observed in all Jewish groups world wide. One of its major subclades, E1b1b (formerly E3b) is considered to be the 2nd most prevalent haplogroup among the Jewish population.
According to one major paper, Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi Jewish and host non-Jewish European populations E-M35, which defines the E1b1b1 (formerly E3b1) haplogroup, is considered to be the second highest, next to J, for "Founding Jewish Lineages" in Europe. It is found in moderate amounts in all Jewish populations, from Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Kurdish, Yemen, Samaritan and even among Djerba Jewish groups.
Haplogroup E is consistently shown to be either the majority or dominant haplogroup for y-chromosomes among afro-asiatic populations across africa, from Somalia & mauritania in the south to the coastal countries on the mediterranean. I've wonder if this wouldn't have been true too for the original speakers of semetic languages in the "near east". If E's prevalence is so consistent among modern pops of afro-asiatic speakers and the other haplogroups came later to join E, then why would the ancient ppl right next door in the "near east" who were evidently not that far related and shared the same lang family not be E also.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ Mike you think any of these, Assyrian looking the same as Hebrew, are black people?
.
Perhaps those Assyrians who wore their hair shorter will answer your question.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
If these curly haired Middle Eastern folk cut their hair they are magically transformed into African types?
ok Mike Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: If these curly haired Middle Eastern folk cut their hair they are magically transformed into Africans?
ok Mike
Oh, you mean that Blacks who wear their hair like THIS:
OR THIS:
Aren't REALLY BLACK!!!!!
Damn, I'm sure they will be Soooo Disappointed! Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
^^
You get cool points for posting the Gordon Parks picture lol!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Lioness is just Tooo silly.
I can only assume that their are no Blacks where she/he/it lives.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^After I said it, it got me to thinking, Ya, just WHERE would Lioness, Cass, and a few others HAVE to live, if they don't know what Black hair looks like.
So I went looking for them:
I think that I found the whole bunch of them HERE!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Taureg in Mali are comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds:
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs from Mali have been forced to flee into Mauritania due to fighting between rebel Tuareg groups and governmental forces. UNHCR is distributing food and relief items to the refugees, while water is being trucked in by the authorities. UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unrefugees.org/atf/cf/%257BD2F991C5-A4FB-4767-9 Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu
lol! I think we should try lightening up a little bit more. Don't you?
African American students "comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds"
TYPICAL Tuareg Kel Adagh guys of Mali
[ Svenskatown
Trolliiiiiin Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Just having a little fun.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: [qb] The Taureg in Mali are comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds:
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs from Mali have been forced to flee into Mauritania due to fighting between rebel Tuareg groups and governmental forces. UNHCR is distributing food and relief items to the refugees, while water is being trucked in by the authorities. UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unrefugees.org/atf/cf/%257BD2F991C5-A4FB-4767-9 Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu
Oromo (Galla)Cushites
There is not a big contrast between Tuareg and other Africans as people like Svenska would like to make it.
Tuareg girls of Burkina Faso
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Get over your fear of blackness Svenska! Black is beautiful!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Taureg in Mali are comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds:
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs from Mali have been forced to flee into Mauritania due to fighting between rebel Tuareg groups and governmental forces. UNHCR is distributing food and relief items to the refugees, while water is being trucked in by the authorities. UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unrefugees.org/atf/cf/%257BD2F991C5-A4FB-4767-9 Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu
dana marniche: lol! I think we should try lightening up a little bit more. Don't you?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
There is not a big contrast between Tuareg and other Africans as people like Svenska would like to make it.
dana, I want to hear you say that of the above two pictures, the top one is not not also Tuareg
dana marniche:________________________________________
.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Lioness - they are called "MULATTOES".
Definition of Mulatto:
Mulatto denotes a person with one white parent and one black parent, or more broadly, a person of mixed black and white ancestry.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Taureg in Mali are comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds:
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs from Mali have been forced to flee into Mauritania due to fighting between rebel Tuareg groups and governmental forces. UNHCR is distributing food and relief items to the refugees, while water is being trucked in by the authorities. UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unrefugees.org/atf/cf/%257BD2F991C5-A4FB-4767-9
Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu
dana marniche: lol! I think we should try lightening up a little bit more. Don't you?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
There is not a big contrast between Tuareg and other Africans as people like Svenska would like to make it.
dana, I want to hear you say that of the above two pictures, the top one is not not also Tuareg
dana marniche:________________________________________
.
You chose the most lightened up photo you could find at the Fassala refugee camp.
BTW although these people are my color - the color of millions of us American Negroes, there are many photos on the web of Tuareg refugees in Fassala that show them darker.
This is in any case what happened when Tuareg and other "Moors" mixed with white slaves. They became less than purely east african in appearance as their genetics clearly show thy have been greatly influenced on their maternal lines. Same as with African Americans except it was due to the masters white masters in most cases.
Thank you for showing off your trolling nature, - as usual.
Malian Tuareg in full color. The men in dark indigo who wear the veil are nobles.
The other difference is that the Tuareg and Moors who are dark brown and more like the also mixed Beja and north Sudanese in appearance then like the mulatto or European - also call themselves "the whites" as the above second video tells us more than once. They are about the color of the Woodabe Fulani and with probably similar hair texture.
Traditionally if a Tuareg man is showing his face then it is usually or often because they belong to a lower caste of people who are only partially Tuareg. This is the usual the case of the fair skinned Tuareg and the same goes with the Songhai vassal caste who wear the white.
Since you like posting black AFricans that have had admixture - this one's for you. Some AFrican Americans.
Here are some Beja too, or African Eritreans.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: You chose the most lightened up photo you could find at the Fassala refugee camp.
I choose two photos, one from a UN article that is of Tuareg refugee women and children and another other of Tuareg rebels. But you had a problem with the skin tone of one of the photos, unecessary
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: BTW although these people are my color - the color of millions of us American Negroes, there are many photos on the web of Tuareg refugees in Fassala that show them darker.
This is in any case what happened when Tuareg and other "Moors" mixed with white slaves. They became less than purely east african in appearance as their genetics clearly show thy have been greatly influenced on their maternal lines. Thank you for showing off your trolling nature, - as usual.
this commentry is unecessary I showed two photos of Turaegs. You had a problem with one for racial reasons therfore you are the troll
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Tuareg in real color.
You imply from this that one of the photos of Turegs is therefore "fake" color Therefore you are again a troll
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The other difference is that the Tuareg and Moors who are dark brown and more like the also mixed Beja and north Sudanese in appearance then like the mulatto or European - also call themselves "the whites" as the above second video tells us more than once. They are about the color of the Woodabe Fulani and with probably similar hair texture.
you're a race loon aka troll aka concerned about "racial" purity
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Traditionally if a Tuareg man is showing his face then it is usually or often because they belong to a lower caste of people who are only partially Tuareg. This is the usual the case of the fair skinned Tuareg and the same goes with the Songhai vassal caste who wear the white.
caste systems are racist
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: BTW although these people are my color
Is this what you are saying now that you are of lower "caste" for your light skin? enough already
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I am so sorry but I failed to see your posting of the northern Malien rebels. Please repost.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am so sorry but I failed to see your posting of the northern Malien rebels. Please repost.
here is the original post from near the top of page 1 of this thread:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Taureg in Mali are comprised of a number of different ancestral backgrounds:
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs from Mali have been forced to flee into Mauritania due to fighting between rebel Tuareg groups and governmental forces. UNHCR is distributing food and relief items to the refugees, while water is being trucked in by the authorities. UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unrefugees.org/atf/cf/%257BD2F991C5-A4FB-4767-9 Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I am sorry. I see no Malien Tuareg rebels. Please repost only the photo you say you posted of them. I am asking for one, and only one solo photo, that being the photo of Malien Tuareg rebels you claim to have already posted somewhere (in this thread?).
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am sorry. I see no Malien Tuareg rebels. Please repost only the photo you say you posted of them. I am asking for one, and only one solo photo, that being the photo of Malien Tuareg rebels you claim to have already posted somewhere (in this thread?).
Yes you are right, I'm surprised dana didn't catch my error here.
Tha above are renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo, not Tuareg rebels
The article's picture above is a little misleading, the title:
Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu.
yet the photo below this headline shows renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo who mounted a coup d’état out of anger at the government's inability to contain the two-month-old Tuareg rebellion in north of the country.
_______________________________________________
Here are some actual Tuareg rebels followed by a few Tuaregs (civilian)
Iddar Ag Ogazide is taking a break from digging and shovelling in 40C Malian Sahel heat. He is happy just to be working. "Today I am a free man, I am longer a slave. I am among men who are the same colour as me who consider me as a man. I earn 1,000 CFA ($2, £1) a day, and that covers my needs," he says
The idea of a salary is something Iddar is just getting used to, having dramatically escaped from his life in the hamlet of Intakabarte, outside Gao, in February this year. According to Iddar, his grandmother was bought as a slave by the Tuareg Ag Baye family, and from then on she was listed as taxable property on the Ag Baye's religious tax form. Iddar says he was inherited by his master, beaten several times, and never received pay or an education. The final straw for Iddar came when his three-year-old son Ahmed was taken away to work for a niece of the Ag Baye family. "I decided I would have to go and get him so I hatched a plan. I told my master that I needed to take Ahmed to his grandparents," he says. "I said we would both return the next day, but we never went back." Iddar was fortunate to find members of the Bamako-based human rights organisation Temedt to help him when he fled to Gao, about 1,200km north-east from the capital, Bamako. Harsh life According to Temedt, there may be thousands of people still living either in slavery or slavery-like conditions in modern Mali.
"The situation has not changed with the arrival of democracy," says Mohammed Ag Akeratane, the president of Temedt. Although the government formally ended slavery in the 1960s after independence, Temedt says it is still practised in the far north of the country between Berber-descended Tuareg nomads and darker-skinned Bella or Black Tamasheq people. It is also believed to exist in other groups such as Songhai and Peul. But many argue that the situation cannot truly be described as slavery. Life is harsh in the Sahara's hinterland - in towns such as Ansongo and Menaka much property and livestock remains in Tuareg hands. Some argue that with few jobs and opportunities, it may be easier for some Bella to live within what is regarded as the protection of a Tuareg family. "For example, I have an encampment and many people have come to live with us, seeking refuge from war and famine," says Mahmoud Ag Hattabo, the Tuareg mayor of Tinahamma near Gao. "They help us with rearing the animals and general work. "But this is not slavery like you would find in the Koran." 'Free to leave' The Malian authorities seem to agree "The Bella people are free to leave their masters if they wish," said a source, who asked not to be named, in Mali's Territorial Administration department. "If people came out to declare openly that they are slaves then of course the state would do something." But for Temedt, which means solidarity in the Tamasheq language of the north, it is time for Mali to face reality. "Slavery is taboo, no-one wants to talk about it," says Mr Ag Akeratane. "Particularly at the level of the authorities they will not accept that it persists." The case of Iddar Ag Ogazide, and several other escapees in Gao, is clear-cut for Anti-Slavery International, a London-based human rights organisation and campaign group which supports Temedt. "Like his parents before him, Iddar was born a slave, a status ascribed to him at birth, and grew up under the total control of a master who exacted labour from him for no remuneration", says Anti-Slavery International's Romana Cacchioli. "In my view Iddar's case is a clear case of slavery." Temedt has instructed a lawyer to work with Iddar to see if he has a case for compensation. But this is difficult because although Mali has signed international conventions against slavery and the nation's constitution states that all men are born equal, there is no domestic law banning the practice. "The difficulty of constructing a case for Iddar demonstrates the need for a law criminalising slavery in Mali," says Mr Cacchioli. former slave "Iddar Ag Ogazide" and wife
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
Traditional names for slaves of the Tuareg are "éklan / Ikelan" in Tamasheq, "Bouzou" in Hausa and "Bella" in Songhai
As the Tuareg moved south on the continent in the 11th century AD, they took slaves as prisoners of war. Most slaves were taken from among sub-Saharan Africans: Songhay - Djerma, Kanuri and Hausa communities, as well rival Tuareg Kels (tribal confederations). These éklan once formed a distinct social class in Tuareg society. Servile groups came in two forms: domestic slaves lived near their owners as domestic servants and herders, and functioned as part of the family, with close social interactions. Additionally, entire communities became servile to aristocratic tribes, conquered in situ, formed by migration of Ikelan families or even other ethnic groups moving into Tuareg controlled communities seeking protection. Sometimes members of rival Kels, defeated in war, were subsumed as lower castes, but usually of higher level than the Ikelan. Servile farming or salt extraction communities, somewhat analogous to European Serfs were gradually assimilated into Tuareg culture, maintained Tuaregs herders during their annual transhumance cycle, or provided trade or farming centers for Tuareg clans. Prior to the 20th century, the Tuareg captured most individual slaves during raids into other communities and in war. War was then the main source of supply of slaves, although many were bought at slave markets, run mostly by indigenous peoples Some Tuareg noble and vassal men married slaves, and their children became freemen. In this sense, éklan formed distinct subsections of a family: "fictive children." Entire Ikelan communities, on the other hand were a class held in an inherited serf-like condition, common among some societies in pre-colonial West Africa, and often having little interaction with "their" nobles though most of the year. French officials following the Second World War reported there were some 50,000 "Bella" under direct control of Tuareg masters in the Gao - Timbuktu areas of French Soudan alone.This was at least four decades after French declarations of mass freedom had happened in other areas of the colony. In 1946, a series of mass desertions of Tuareg slaves and bonded communities began in Nioro and later in Menaka, quickly spreading along the Niger River valley.[12] In the first decade of the 20th century, French administrators in southern Tuareg areas of French Soudan estimated "free" to "servile" Tuareg populations at rations of 1 to 8 or 9.[13] At the same time the servile "rimaibe" population of the Masina Fulbe, roughly equivalent to the Bella, made up between %70 to %80 of the Fulbe population, while servile Songhai groups around Gao made up some 2/3 to 3/4 of the total Songhai population.[13] Klein concludes that roughly %50 of the population of French Soudan at the beginning of the 20th century were in some servile or slave relationship. ___________________________________
Fertility of Malian Tamasheq Repatriated Refugees: The Impact of Forced ... By Sara Randall, Joseph L. Mailman School of Public Health. Program on Forced Migration and Health, Roundtable on the Demography of Forced Migration
profile of our "friends" the Tuaregs
Posted by Goredema (Member # 15729) on :
Lionesses picture is authentic but so is the small-curled hair of Brada-Anansi's picture, they both depict Jews from Lakish. Why should it be indirectly suggested that the latter's picture is not authentic? Perhaps we should all get into the habit of using ALL indentifiable pictures of ancient Jews or, at least, as many as possible.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am sorry. I see no Malien Tuareg rebels. Please repost only the photo you say you posted of them. I am asking for one, and only one solo photo, that being the photo of Malien Tuareg rebels you claim to have already posted somewhere (in this thread?).
Yes you are right, I'm surprised dana didn't catch my error here.
Tha above are renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo, not Tuareg rebels
The article's picture above is a little misleading, the title:
Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu.
yet the photo below this headline shows renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo who mounted a coup d’état out of anger at the government's inability to contain the two-month-old Tuareg rebellion in north of the country.
_______________________________________________
Here are some actual Tuareg rebels followed by a few Tuaregs (civilian)
Iddar Ag Ogazide is taking a break from digging and shovelling in 40C Malian Sahel heat. He is happy just to be working. "Today I am a free man, I am longer a slave. I am among men who are the same colour as me who consider me as a man. I earn 1,000 CFA ($2, £1) a day, and that covers my needs," he says
The idea of a salary is something Iddar is just getting used to, having dramatically escaped from his life in the hamlet of Intakabarte, outside Gao, in February this year. According to Iddar, his grandmother was bought as a slave by the Tuareg Ag Baye family, and from then on she was listed as taxable property on the Ag Baye's religious tax form. Iddar says he was inherited by his master, beaten several times, and never received pay or an education. The final straw for Iddar came when his three-year-old son Ahmed was taken away to work for a niece of the Ag Baye family. "I decided I would have to go and get him so I hatched a plan. I told my master that I needed to take Ahmed to his grandparents," he says. "I said we would both return the next day, but we never went back." Iddar was fortunate to find members of the Bamako-based human rights organisation Temedt to help him when he fled to Gao, about 1,200km north-east from the capital, Bamako. Harsh life According to Temedt, there may be thousands of people still living either in slavery or slavery-like conditions in modern Mali.
"The situation has not changed with the arrival of democracy," says Mohammed Ag Akeratane, the president of Temedt. Although the government formally ended slavery in the 1960s after independence, Temedt says it is still practised in the far north of the country between Berber-descended Tuareg nomads and darker-skinned Bella or Black Tamasheq people. It is also believed to exist in other groups such as Songhai and Peul. But many argue that the situation cannot truly be described as slavery. Life is harsh in the Sahara's hinterland - in towns such as Ansongo and Menaka much property and livestock remains in Tuareg hands. Some argue that with few jobs and opportunities, it may be easier for some Bella to live within what is regarded as the protection of a Tuareg family. "For example, I have an encampment and many people have come to live with us, seeking refuge from war and famine," says Mahmoud Ag Hattabo, the Tuareg mayor of Tinahamma near Gao. "They help us with rearing the animals and general work. "But this is not slavery like you would find in the Koran." 'Free to leave' The Malian authorities seem to agree "The Bella people are free to leave their masters if they wish," said a source, who asked not to be named, in Mali's Territorial Administration department. "If people came out to declare openly that they are slaves then of course the state would do something." But for Temedt, which means solidarity in the Tamasheq language of the north, it is time for Mali to face reality. "Slavery is taboo, no-one wants to talk about it," says Mr Ag Akeratane. "Particularly at the level of the authorities they will not accept that it persists." The case of Iddar Ag Ogazide, and several other escapees in Gao, is clear-cut for Anti-Slavery International, a London-based human rights organisation and campaign group which supports Temedt. "Like his parents before him, Iddar was born a slave, a status ascribed to him at birth, and grew up under the total control of a master who exacted labour from him for no remuneration", says Anti-Slavery International's Romana Cacchioli. "In my view Iddar's case is a clear case of slavery." Temedt has instructed a lawyer to work with Iddar to see if he has a case for compensation. But this is difficult because although Mali has signed international conventions against slavery and the nation's constitution states that all men are born equal, there is no domestic law banning the practice. "The difficulty of constructing a case for Iddar demonstrates the need for a law criminalising slavery in Mali," says Mr Cacchioli. former slave "Iddar Ag Ogazide" and wife
I don't know what this is suppose to mean, but there was (is) slavery everywhere. And there (was) is still slavery in EUROPE till this day and time!
Some Europeans always act so high-pose. lol
The Tuareg composition is ethnographic diverse stretching over large parts of West-Northwest Africa. Tuaregs have a long and old history and are a proud people.
The article seems to speak of an ethno based dispute within the same group, though from different regions. Considering the fact that "Tamasheq" people themselves are Tuareg originating from Adrar des Ifoghas.
Traditional names for slaves of the Tuareg are "éklan / Ikelan" in Tamasheq, "Bouzou" in Hausa and "Bella" in Songhai
As the Tuareg moved south on the continent in the 11th century AD, they took slaves as prisoners of war. Most slaves were taken from among sub-Saharan Africans: Songhay - Djerma, Kanuri and Hausa communities, as well rival Tuareg Kels (tribal confederations). These éklan once formed a distinct social class in Tuareg society. Servile groups came in two forms: domestic slaves lived near their owners as domestic servants and herders, and functioned as part of the family, with close social interactions. Additionally, entire communities became servile to aristocratic tribes, conquered in situ, formed by migration of Ikelan families or even other ethnic groups moving into Tuareg controlled communities seeking protection. Sometimes members of rival Kels, defeated in war, were subsumed as lower castes, but usually of higher level than the Ikelan. Servile farming or salt extraction communities, somewhat analogous to European Serfs were gradually assimilated into Tuareg culture, maintained Tuaregs herders during their annual transhumance cycle, or provided trade or farming centers for Tuareg clans. Prior to the 20th century, the Tuareg captured most individual slaves during raids into other communities and in war. War was then the main source of supply of slaves, although many were bought at slave markets, run mostly by indigenous peoples Some Tuareg noble and vassal men married slaves, and their children became freemen. In this sense, éklan formed distinct subsections of a family: "fictive children." Entire Ikelan communities, on the other hand were a class held in an inherited serf-like condition, common among some societies in pre-colonial West Africa, and often having little interaction with "their" nobles though most of the year. French officials following the Second World War reported there were some 50,000 "Bella" under direct control of Tuareg masters in the Gao - Timbuktu areas of French Soudan alone.This was at least four decades after French declarations of mass freedom had happened in other areas of the colony. In 1946, a series of mass desertions of Tuareg slaves and bonded communities began in Nioro and later in Menaka, quickly spreading along the Niger River valley.[12] In the first decade of the 20th century, French administrators in southern Tuareg areas of French Soudan estimated "free" to "servile" Tuareg populations at rations of 1 to 8 or 9.[13] At the same time the servile "rimaibe" population of the Masina Fulbe, roughly equivalent to the Bella, made up between %70 to %80 of the Fulbe population, while servile Songhai groups around Gao made up some 2/3 to 3/4 of the total Songhai population.[13] Klein concludes that roughly %50 of the population of French Soudan at the beginning of the 20th century were in some servile or slave relationship. ___________________________________
Fertility of Malian Tamasheq Repatriated Refugees: The Impact of Forced ... By Sara Randall, Joseph L. Mailman School of Public Health. Program on Forced Migration and Health, Roundtable on the Demography of Forced Migration
profile of our "friends" the Tuaregs
Hi there fake black woman, it appears you now have a new sport. TRYING TO PROVE who was/ is a slave descendant in Africa!
Some Europeans are truly something! It's always the same story with you! lol
Ironically your friend/ author did not write one sentences on MAMLUKS AND SAQALIBAS!
Plus a lot of what is written there is plain EUROCENTRIC BULLSHIT!
The point is that dana makes up an opposite story in regard to Tuareg Nobles and bonded castes/slaves. She says the bonded castes/slaves were derived from white slaves and are lighter. Not the case. The bonded castes/slaves of the Tamasheq Tureg nobles were darker Africans from further South at a later 11th c stage when Tuareg moved into some more Southern regions. The noble class was also relatively dark but not as dark as the slaves. Some lighter skinned Berbers may have become Tuareg. They go back pretty far to BCE when Phoenicians and Sea People were in the area. The table of nations in Ramesses III can attest the lightness of SOME not all Libyans. Much later ther are also the white slaves of the Barbary Corairs. So there is a very complex ethnic history in the region. he Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. According to observers of the late 1500s and early 1600s, there were around 35,000 European Christian slaves held throughout this time on the Barbary Coast - many in Tripoli, Tunis, and various Moroccan towns, but most of all in Algiers.Slaves in Barbary could be black, brown or white, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish or Muslim. However the Barbary Corsairs sometimes called the Ottoman Corsairs are not the Tuareg. Slavery and caste in North Africa prior to the Barbary is more an outgrowth of traditional tribal culture, local adaptions of ancient Islamic rulings on slavery, and hereditary social stratification in nomad communities, and it has existed in various forms as a fact of life for hundreds of years. It’s quite repugnant nonetheless
Bonded Castes and Slaves As did many other ethnic groups in West Africa, the Tuareg once held slaves (éklan / Ikelan in Tamasheq, Bouzou in Hausa, Bella in Songhai). Tuareg skin color in general is considerably darker than most Mediterranean Berbers, and lighter, in general, than sub-Saharan populations. The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves. These éklan once formed a distinct social class in Tuareg society. Slaves lived near their owners as domestic servants and herders, and functioned as part of the family, with close social interactions. Some Tuareg noble and vassal men married slaves, and their children became freemen. In this sense, éklan formed distinct sub-communities: a class held in an inherited serfdom like condition, common in pre-colonial West Africa. French colonial governments passed legislation to abolish slavery but did not enforce it; this was more in the interest of dismantling the traditional Tuareg political economy, which depended on slave labor for herding, as well as "pacification" of the fiercely resistant Tuareg, than a blanket liberation of slaves.
While post independence states have sought to outlaw slavery, results have been mixed, and old caste relationships remain in many places. According to the Travel Channel show Bob Geldof in Africa, the descendants of those slaves (known as the Bella) are still slaves in all but name. In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.
References 1. ^ "Q&A: Tuareg unrest". BBC. Retrieved on 2008-01-04. 2. ^ a b c d "Who are the Tuareg?". Smithsonian Institution. Retrieved on 2007-11-03. 3. ^ See Rodd 1926. 4. ^ "Charles de Foucauld - Sera béatifié à l'automne 2005". Retrieved on 2007-11-03. 5. ^ Samuel Decalo. Historical Dictionary of Niger. Scarecrow Press, London and New Jersey (1979). ISBN 0810812290. See specific entries for each caste / clan title. 6. ^ o Edouard Bernus. "Les palmeraies de l'Aïr", Revue de l'Occident Musulman et de la Méditerranée, 11, (1972) pp.37-50. o Frederick Brusberg. Production and Exchange in the Saharan Air, in Current Anthropology, Vol. 26, No. 3. (Jun., 1985), pp. 394-395. Field research on the econmoics of the Aouderas valley, 1984. o Samuel Decalo. Historical Dictionary of Niger. Scarecrow Press, London and New Jersey (1979). ISBN 0810812290 o Jolijn Geels. Niger. Bradt London and Globe Pequot New York (2006). ISBN 1841621528. o Michael J. Mortimore. The Changing Resources of Sedentary Communities in Air, Southern Sahara, in Geographical Review, Vol. 62, No. 1. (Jan., 1972), pp. 71-91. 7. ^ o Anti-Slavery International & Association Timidira, Galy kadir Abdelkader, ed. Niger: Slavery in Historical, Legal and Contemporary Perspectives. March 2004. o Born to be a slave in Niger By Hilary Andersson, BBC Africa Correspondent, Niger. o Kayaking to Timbuktu, Writer Sees Slave Trade, More. o The Shackles of Slavery in Niger. o NIGER: Slavery - an unbroken chain. o On the way to freedom, Niger's slaves stuck in limbo 8. ^ ABC News: The Shackles of Slavery in Niger 9. ^ Cantor Arts Center - First Exhibition of Tuareg Art and Culture in America Appears at Stanford Before Traveling to the Smithsonian's National Museum of African Art 10. ^ Tinariwen:Aman Iman CD booklet 11. ^ http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~yusuf/introduction.html • Ghoubeid Alojaly, Karl Prasse, Ghabdouane Mohamed, Dictionnaire touareg-français, Copenhague, Museum Tusculanum, 2003 (2 vols., 1031 p.) - ISBN 8772898445 • Francis James Rennell Rodd, People of the veil. Being an account of the habits, organisation and history of the wandering Tuareg tribes which inhabit the mountains of Air or Asben in the Central Sahara, London, MacMillian & Co., 1926 (repr. Oosterhout, N.B., Anthropological Publications, 1966) • Heath Jeffrey 2005: A Grammar of Tamashek (Tuareg of Mali). New York: Mouton de Gruyer. Mouton Grammar Library, 35. ISBN 3-11-018484-2 • Rando et al. (1998) Mitochondrial DNA analysis of northwest African populations reveals genetic exchanges with European, near-eastern, and sub-Saharan populations. Annals of Human Genetics 62(6): 531-50; Watson et al. (1996) mtDNA sequence diversity in Africa. American Journal of Human Genetics 59(2): 437-44; Salas et al. (2002) The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape. American Journal of Human Genetics 71: 1082-1111. These are good sources for information on the genetic heritage of the Tuareg and their relatedness to other populations.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Patty if you wnat to play games you will have to put up some sources on Ikelan in and Bella and who they are. Otherwise stop crying,
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The point is that dana makes up an opposite story in regard to Tuareg Nobles and bonded castes/slaves. She says the bonded castes/slaves were derived from white slaves and are lighter. Not the case. The bonded castes/slaves of the Tamasheq Tureg nobles were darker Africans from further South at a later 11th c stage when Tuareg moved into some more Southern regions. The noble class was also relatively dark but not as dark as the slaves. Some lighter skinned Berbers may have become Tuareg. They go back pretty far to BCE when Phoenicians and Sea People were in the area. The table of nations in Ramesses III can attest the lightness of SOME not all Libyans. Much later ther are also the white slaves of the Barbary Corairs. So there is a very complex ethnic history in the region. he Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. According to observers of the late 1500s and early 1600s, there were around 35,000 European Christian slaves held throughout this time on the Barbary Coast - many in Tripoli, Tunis, and various Moroccan towns, but most of all in Algiers.Slaves in Barbary could be black, brown or white, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish or Muslim. However the Barbary Corsairs sometimes called the Ottoman Corsairs are not the Tuareg. Slavery and caste in North Africa prior to the Barbary is more an outgrowth of traditional tribal culture, local adaptions of ancient Islamic rulings on slavery, and hereditary social stratification in nomad communities, and it has existed in various forms as a fact of life for hundreds of years. It’s quite repugnant nonetheless
Bonded Castes and Slaves As did many other ethnic groups in West Africa, the Tuareg once held slaves (éklan / Ikelan in Tamasheq, Bouzou in Hausa, Bella in Songhai). Tuareg skin color in general is considerably darker than most Mediterranean Berbers, and lighter, in general, than sub-Saharan populations. The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves. These éklan once formed a distinct social class in Tuareg society. Slaves lived near their owners as domestic servants and herders, and functioned as part of the family, with close social interactions. Some Tuareg noble and vassal men married slaves, and their children became freemen. In this sense, éklan formed distinct sub-communities: a class held in an inherited serfdom like condition, common in pre-colonial West Africa. French colonial governments passed legislation to abolish slavery but did not enforce it; this was more in the interest of dismantling the traditional Tuareg political economy, which depended on slave labor for herding, as well as "pacification" of the fiercely resistant Tuareg, than a blanket liberation of slaves.
While post independence states have sought to outlaw slavery, results have been mixed, and old caste relationships remain in many places. According to the Travel Channel show Bob Geldof in Africa, the descendants of those slaves (known as the Bella) are still slaves in all but name. In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.
References 1. ^ "Q&A: Tuareg unrest". BBC. Retrieved on 2008-01-04. 2. ^ a b c d "Who are the Tuareg?". Smithsonian Institution. Retrieved on 2007-11-03. 3. ^ See Rodd 1926. 4. ^ "Charles de Foucauld - Sera béatifié à l'automne 2005". Retrieved on 2007-11-03. 5. ^ Samuel Decalo. Historical Dictionary of Niger. Scarecrow Press, London and New Jersey (1979). ISBN 0810812290. See specific entries for each caste / clan title. 6. ^ o Edouard Bernus. "Les palmeraies de l'Aïr", Revue de l'Occident Musulman et de la Méditerranée, 11, (1972) pp.37-50. o Frederick Brusberg. Production and Exchange in the Saharan Air, in Current Anthropology, Vol. 26, No. 3. (Jun., 1985), pp. 394-395. Field research on the econmoics of the Aouderas valley, 1984. o Samuel Decalo. Historical Dictionary of Niger. Scarecrow Press, London and New Jersey (1979). ISBN 0810812290 o Jolijn Geels. Niger. Bradt London and Globe Pequot New York (2006). ISBN 1841621528. o Michael J. Mortimore. The Changing Resources of Sedentary Communities in Air, Southern Sahara, in Geographical Review, Vol. 62, No. 1. (Jan., 1972), pp. 71-91. 7. ^ o Anti-Slavery International & Association Timidira, Galy kadir Abdelkader, ed. Niger: Slavery in Historical, Legal and Contemporary Perspectives. March 2004. o Born to be a slave in Niger By Hilary Andersson, BBC Africa Correspondent, Niger. o Kayaking to Timbuktu, Writer Sees Slave Trade, More. o The Shackles of Slavery in Niger. o NIGER: Slavery - an unbroken chain. o On the way to freedom, Niger's slaves stuck in limbo 8. ^ ABC News: The Shackles of Slavery in Niger 9. ^ Cantor Arts Center - First Exhibition of Tuareg Art and Culture in America Appears at Stanford Before Traveling to the Smithsonian's National Museum of African Art 10. ^ Tinariwen:Aman Iman CD booklet 11. ^ http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~yusuf/introduction.html • Ghoubeid Alojaly, Karl Prasse, Ghabdouane Mohamed, Dictionnaire touareg-français, Copenhague, Museum Tusculanum, 2003 (2 vols., 1031 p.) - ISBN 8772898445 • Francis James Rennell Rodd, People of the veil. Being an account of the habits, organisation and history of the wandering Tuareg tribes which inhabit the mountains of Air or Asben in the Central Sahara, London, MacMillian & Co., 1926 (repr. Oosterhout, N.B., Anthropological Publications, 1966) • Heath Jeffrey 2005: A Grammar of Tamashek (Tuareg of Mali). New York: Mouton de Gruyer. Mouton Grammar Library, 35. ISBN 3-11-018484-2 • Rando et al. (1998) Mitochondrial DNA analysis of northwest African populations reveals genetic exchanges with European, near-eastern, and sub-Saharan populations. Annals of Human Genetics 62(6): 531-50; Watson et al. (1996) mtDNA sequence diversity in Africa. American Journal of Human Genetics 59(2): 437-44; Salas et al. (2002) The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape. American Journal of Human Genetics 71: 1082-1111. These are good sources for information on the genetic heritage of the Tuareg and their relatedness to other populations.
THE TUAREG ARE AN ETHNIC PEOPLE GOING BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS LIVING IN THE SAME REGION. THEY DID NOT EMERGE RECENTLY BECAUSE OF A FEW ARABS OR "BERBERS"
WHAT MAKES YOU AND YOUR EUROCENTRIC FRIENDS EXPERTS? LOL
THE BERBER LANGUAGE DESCENTS FROM LIBYO-CHADIC!!!!! NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
BERBERS ARE A YOUNGER GROUP!!!!
YOU EUROS TRY TO SELL A WHITE LIE!!!
YOU FOLKS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE ETHNOGRAPHIC COMPOSITION!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Troll Patty if you wnat to play games you will have to put up some sources on Ikelan in and Bella and who they are. Otherwise stop crying,
Ahh look at this eurcentric piece of trash. Acting as a black woman. LOOOOL
Your european version is IRRELEVANT!
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Berbers as represented by the Tuareg....
....ancient and modern Berbers like the Tuareg
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Troll Patty if you wnat to play games you will have to put up some sources on Ikelan in and Bella and who they are. Otherwise stop crying,
Ahh look at this eurcentric piece of trash. Acting as a black woman. LOOOOL
Your european version is IRRELEVANT!
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
^^^^ you can see the crying when the capitol letters come out Ikelan in and Bella, sweep it under the rug, here's a broom
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Berbers as represented by the Tuareg....
....ancient and modern Berbers like the Tuareg
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Troll Patty if you wnat to play games you will have to put up some sources on Ikelan in and Bella and who they are. Otherwise stop crying,
Ahh look at this eurcentric piece of trash. Acting as a black woman. LOOOOL
Your european version is IRRELEVANT!
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
^^^^ you can see the crying when the capitol letters come out
YES, IT IS INDEED A CRYING SHAME FOR YOU TO POST YOUR EUROCENTRIC LIES. IMPOSTOR BLACK WOMAN!!!!
TELL, WHITE BOY.
Were Africans not able to migrate move/ freely over the continent. Especially the Sahel and Sahara region?
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!! [/QB]
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people).
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Berbers as represented by the Tuareg....
....ancient and modern Berbers like the Tuareg
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Troll Patty if you wnat to play games you will have to put up some sources on Ikelan in and Bella and who they are. Otherwise stop crying,
Ahh look at this eurcentric piece of trash. Acting as a black woman. LOOOOL
Your european version is IRRELEVANT!
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
^^^^ you can see the crying when the capitol letters come out Ikelan in and Bella, sweep it under the rug, here's a broom
LOL, IT appears you cant' answer my question PROPERLY.
Do you think Africans couldn't move freely over the continent?
Why is it on average Tuaregs look like this?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people). [/QB]
What makes you the specialist on people from the Sahel and Sahara, English piece of NBP sh*t!?
If I mention the word retard, you may answer. Otherwise not!
Now go back to your other account. Impostor!
Looking like you? LOOOOL
Even if you would post depiction's of light skinned Berbers or other Northeast or Northwest African you would still find them with a snob noses and full lips. And even with prognathism! Oh .. and curly haired
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Do you think Africans couldn't move freely over the continent?
The Tuareg were nomads and traveled over wide areas, so what, what does that prove?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Do you think Africans couldn't move freely over the continent?
The Tuareg were nomads and traveled over wide areas, so what, what does that prove?
Back to your other account. Good!
It proves that they have an ancient nomadic history in the same region for thousands of years. From before the Holocene period. AS TROPICAL ADAPTED PEOPLE comprised of the same composition!
Your story is based up on a lie, trying to vindicate a false massage!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people). [/QB]
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age. Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people).
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age. [/QB]
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The point is that dana makes up an opposite story in regard to Tuareg Nobles and bonded castes/slaves. She says the bonded castes/slaves were derived from white slaves and are lighter. Not the case. The bonded castes/slaves of the Tamasheq Tureg nobles were darker Africans from further South at a later 11th c stage when Tuareg moved into some more Southern regions. The noble class was also relatively dark but not as dark as the slaves. Some lighter skinned Berbers may have become Tuareg. They go back pretty far to BCE when Phoenicians and Sea People were in the area. The table of nations in Ramesses III can attest the lightness of SOME not all Libyans. Much later ther are also the white slaves of the Barbary Corairs. So there is a very complex ethnic history in the region. he Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. According to observers of the late 1500s and early 1600s, there were around 35,000 European Christian slaves held throughout this time on the Barbary Coast - many in Tripoli, Tunis, and various Moroccan towns, but most of all in Algiers.Slaves in Barbary could be black, brown or white, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish or Muslim. However the Barbary Corsairs sometimes called the Ottoman Corsairs are not the Tuareg. Slavery and caste in North Africa prior to the Barbary is more an outgrowth of traditional tribal culture, local adaptions of ancient Islamic rulings on slavery, and hereditary social stratification in nomad communities, and it has existed in various forms as a fact of life for hundreds of years. It’s quite repugnant nonetheless
Bonded Castes and Slaves As did many other ethnic groups in West Africa, the Tuareg once held slaves (éklan / Ikelan in Tamasheq, Bouzou in Hausa, Bella in Songhai). Tuareg skin color in general is considerably darker than most Mediterranean Berbers, and lighter, in general, than sub-Saharan populations. The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves. These éklan once formed a distinct social class in Tuareg society. Slaves lived near their owners as domestic servants and herders, and functioned as part of the family, with close social interactions. Some Tuareg noble and vassal men married slaves, and their children became freemen. In this sense, éklan formed distinct sub-communities: a class held in an inherited serfdom like condition, common in pre-colonial West Africa. French colonial governments passed legislation to abolish slavery but did not enforce it; this was more in the interest of dismantling the traditional Tuareg political economy, which depended on slave labor for herding, as well as "pacification" of the fiercely resistant Tuareg, than a blanket liberation of slaves.
While post independence states have sought to outlaw slavery, results have been mixed, and old caste relationships remain in many places. According to the Travel Channel show Bob Geldof in Africa, the descendants of those slaves (known as the Bella) are still slaves in all but name. In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.
References 1. ^ "Q&A: Tuareg unrest". BBC. Retrieved on 2008-01-04. 2. ^ a b c d "Who are the Tuareg?". Smithsonian Institution. Retrieved on 2007-11-03. 3. ^ See Rodd 1926. 4. ^ "Charles de Foucauld - Sera béatifié à l'automne 2005". Retrieved on 2007-11-03. 5. ^ Samuel Decalo. Historical Dictionary of Niger. Scarecrow Press, London and New Jersey (1979). ISBN 0810812290. See specific entries for each caste / clan title. 6. ^ o Edouard Bernus. "Les palmeraies de l'Aïr", Revue de l'Occident Musulman et de la Méditerranée, 11, (1972) pp.37-50. o Frederick Brusberg. Production and Exchange in the Saharan Air, in Current Anthropology, Vol. 26, No. 3. (Jun., 1985), pp. 394-395. Field research on the econmoics of the Aouderas valley, 1984. o Samuel Decalo. Historical Dictionary of Niger. Scarecrow Press, London and New Jersey (1979). ISBN 0810812290 o Jolijn Geels. Niger. Bradt London and Globe Pequot New York (2006). ISBN 1841621528. o Michael J. Mortimore. The Changing Resources of Sedentary Communities in Air, Southern Sahara, in Geographical Review, Vol. 62, No. 1. (Jan., 1972), pp. 71-91. 7. ^ o Anti-Slavery International & Association Timidira, Galy kadir Abdelkader, ed. Niger: Slavery in Historical, Legal and Contemporary Perspectives. March 2004. o Born to be a slave in Niger By Hilary Andersson, BBC Africa Correspondent, Niger. o Kayaking to Timbuktu, Writer Sees Slave Trade, More. o The Shackles of Slavery in Niger. o NIGER: Slavery - an unbroken chain. o On the way to freedom, Niger's slaves stuck in limbo 8. ^ ABC News: The Shackles of Slavery in Niger 9. ^ Cantor Arts Center - First Exhibition of Tuareg Art and Culture in America Appears at Stanford Before Traveling to the Smithsonian's National Museum of African Art 10. ^ Tinariwen:Aman Iman CD booklet 11. ^ http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~yusuf/introduction.html • Ghoubeid Alojaly, Karl Prasse, Ghabdouane Mohamed, Dictionnaire touareg-français, Copenhague, Museum Tusculanum, 2003 (2 vols., 1031 p.) - ISBN 8772898445 • Francis James Rennell Rodd, People of the veil. Being an account of the habits, organisation and history of the wandering Tuareg tribes which inhabit the mountains of Air or Asben in the Central Sahara, London, MacMillian & Co., 1926 (repr. Oosterhout, N.B., Anthropological Publications, 1966) • Heath Jeffrey 2005: A Grammar of Tamashek (Tuareg of Mali). New York: Mouton de Gruyer. Mouton Grammar Library, 35. ISBN 3-11-018484-2 • Rando et al. (1998) Mitochondrial DNA analysis of northwest African populations reveals genetic exchanges with European, near-eastern, and sub-Saharan populations. Annals of Human Genetics 62(6): 531-50; Watson et al. (1996) mtDNA sequence diversity in Africa. American Journal of Human Genetics 59(2): 437-44; Salas et al. (2002) The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape. American Journal of Human Genetics 71: 1082-1111. These are good sources for information on the genetic heritage of the Tuareg and their relatedness to other populations.
The slaves among the Tuareg my friend are Iklan and not Tuareg. Nor do they look Tuareg. What genetic specialists have already told you is that Tuareg have been on their maternal side moderately influenced by the genetic impress of various non-African women as are almost all Berbers.
What you don't want to accept is that Tuareg HAVE HAD white women slaves very recently - as all BERBERS.
Commentary on "the Moors" by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.
The idea that Tuareg were influenced by "People of the Sea" is something I myself had wondered some time ago. That was before I discovered how the Tuareg ancestors (Ifuraces, Elamtai/Lamta, Aulimmidden/Lamtuna or Sanhaja, Cadenit, Imakitan/Mucuteni/Ucutamani/Kutama, Imaqqoren/Maghrawa, were described in the time of the Syrian and Iranian Muslim writers between the 11 and 14th century. They are only described as "blacks" with only "a few pale women among them". Did you forget that!
Secondly the recent genetic evidence showing the effects of the female slave trade really only go back to the last 800 years was the final confirmation. All of that leaves out the possibility of Tuareg having originally been white Iberians that mixed with African women or who have been greatly influenced by "Peoples of the Sea".
In fact none of the original peoples called Berbers were.
And yes it is very funny how these European authors either don't bother to read history or have the same problem as you do accepting that Europeans were also slaves in West Africa like North Africa and the Middle East where they were THE MAJORITY. I think it rather likely the latter and hence some people have to be the internet setting them straight. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people).
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid. [/QB]
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia. Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Why is it on average Tuaregs look like this?
[/QB]
They don't. The average Tuareg is still predominantly Caucasoid.
''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
Still though they are pred Caucasoid.
There is really little Negroid (Black) about them...
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people).
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia. [/QB]
It's funny and fascinating how someone who is clearly supporting fascism and a member of a fascist party like the NBP, has the nerve to insult a man like L. Brace.
It's crazy considering the fact I have p[posted this multiple times.
quote:
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sabaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt - such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semai 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980) - show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens.
This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations...... This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005).
In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
Nature 249, 120 - 123 (10 May 1974); doi:10.1038/249120a0
Barbed bone points from Central Sudan and the age of the “Early Khartoum” tradition
D. ADAMSON*, J. D. CLARK† & M. A. J. WILLIAMS‡
*School of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, New South Wales 2113, Australia †Department of Anthropology, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720 ‡School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, New South Wales 2113, Australia
Barbed bone points, typical of those from the early Holocene settlement of “Early Khartoum”, have been found at three sites along the White Nile, south of Khartoum. The form of the fragments and the stratigraphy of the sites throw light on the environment and technology of the early settlements along this part of the Nile.
The site of Beisamoun is located in the western margins of the Hula Basin, c. 10 km south of Qiryat Shemona. A moderate Mediterranean climate and water resources in the immediate vicinity of the site, such as the ‘Enan and Agamon springs, were one of the major factors for establishing prehistoric settlements in this region, one of which was ‘Ein Mallaha, a major Natufian site in the Levant.
They don't. The average Tuareg is still predominantly Caucasoid.
''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
Still though they are pred Caucasoid.
There is really little Negroid (Black) about them... [/QB]
Nobody is interested in your opinion Cassiterides. Did you forget there are AFricans on this forum who know what other Africans look like.
Notice how the lighter skin lower caste vassal Tuareg are rarely shown wearing the indigo veil of the nobles.
Half-caste Tuareg are lower caste Tuareg. Get it! Got it! Good!
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Why is it on average Tuaregs look like this?
They don't. The average Tuareg is still predominantly Caucasoid.
''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
Still though they are pred Caucasoid.
There is really little Negroid (Black) about them... [/QB]
Those last two are clearly mixed and look like Ethiopians
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people).
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia. [/QB]
Loring Brace is a quack. For starters he denies races exist, i'm more interested in what genuine anthropologists have had to say on the matter -
''What little we have from Palestine, mostly scraps of bone and a few teeth, is also Caucasoid. For example, the Mesolithic Natufian skulls and long bones from thet country are those of ancestral Mediterranean's'' - Carleton Coon, Origin of Races, 1962, p. 587
''The little Mediterranean people, whose ancestors were the Mesolithic Natufians of Palestine'' - Races of Man, Sonia Mary Cole, 1965, 2nd ed. p. 59.
''They were of rugged Eurafrican (Robust Mediterranean -Linear Basic White) stock with a dolichocephalic skull and of rather short stature'' - The Neolithic of the Near East, James Mellaart, 1975, p. 38.
The Natufians were Caucasoid, specifically ancestral Mediterranoids.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Why is it on average Tuaregs look like this?
They don't. The average Tuareg is still predominantly Caucasoid.
''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
Still though they are pred Caucasoid.
There is really little Negroid (Black) about them... [/QB]
Hell, you dumb Brit what do you know about the SAHARA AND SAHEL and it's people? lol
The people you show are from the Northern part of the NORTH!
That area has ADMIXTURE FROM EAST EUROPEANS FEMALES. MAMLUKS AND SAQALIBAS!!!! Yet, they still have African affinities! Unfortunate for you, you are too blind to see this! SMH
I have relatives looking like them this!
Your beloved Italian friend Cavalli-Sforza never mentioned any of this. FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. LOL
By the way, his mapping was done when there wasn't even a Human genome.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia.
^Ancient mtDNA analysis and the origin of the Guanches.
Nicole Maca-Meyer, Matilde Arnay, Juan Carlos Rando, Carlos Flores, Ana M González, Vicente M Cabrera and José M Larruga Eur J Hum Genet 12(2):155-62 (2004) PMID 14508507
The prehistoric colonisation of the Canary Islands by the Guanches (native Canarians) woke up great expectation about their origin, since the Europeans conquest of the Archipelago. Here, we report mitochondrial DNA analysis (HVRI sequences and RFLPs) of aborigine remains around 1000 years old. The sequences retrieved show that the Guanches possessed U6b1 lineages that are in the present day Canarian population, but not in Africans. In turn, U6b, the phylogenetically closest ancestor found in Africa, is not present in the Canary Islands.
Comparisons with other populations relate the Guanches with the actual inhabitants of the Archipelago and with Moroccan Berbers.
This shows that, despite the continuous changes suffered by the population (Spanish colonisation, slave trade), aboriginal mtDNA lineages constitute a considerable proportion of the Canarian gene pool.
Although the Berbers are the most probable ancestors of the Guanches, it is deduced that important human movements have reshaped Northwest Africa after the migratory wave to the Canary Islands.
"This shows that, despite the continuous changes suffered by the population (Spanish colonisation, slave trade)"
"Furthermore, after the Conquest, the need of labour led to the introduction of slaves from the Northwest African coast..With time, these slaves were freed and integrated into the island population"
C. Loring Brace et al. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, November 11, 2005
When the Basques are run with the other samples used in Fig. 1, they link with Germany and more remotely with the Canary Islands. They are clearly European, although the length of their twig indicates that they have a distinction all their own.
It is clear, however, that they do not represent a survival of the kind of craniofacial form indicated by Cro-Magnon any more than do the Canary Islanders, nor does either sample tie in with the Berbers of North Africa as has previously been claimed (37, 44-45)...
It all came from eugenic freaks like Alfred Rosenberg, Von Schlegel and Blavatsky with their Atlantic fantasies.
Correct. What's more is that the Guanches are actually a minority and do NOT represent the majority of Canary Island natives who are BLACK.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: There was a black population on the Canary Islands prior to the slave trade and European Invasions...
Mathilda won't talk about this will she??
Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands January 13, 1435
Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.
Yeah I noticed that these Euronuts never mention the dark skinned populations of the Canary Islands that were documented by earlier sources - possibly Phoenicians or Moors i.e. the original Berbers. I remember Ausar had done a good write up on this.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Dana, I can't believe that you are engaging Cass on such nonsense. Doing so gives his nonsense the element of plausibility. Best to ignore him when he gets this stupid.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Yeah I noticed that these Euronuts never mention the dark skinned populations of the Canary Islands that were documented by earlier sources - possibly Phoenicians or Moors i.e. the original Berbers. I remember Ausar had done a good write up on this.
Pardon me, I posted the wrong one.This here is the right one.
It's crazy considering the fact I have posted this multiple times.
quote:
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sabaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt - such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semai 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980) - show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens.
This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations...... This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005).
In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
Nature 249, 120 - 123 (10 May 1974); doi:10.1038/249120a0
Barbed bone points from Central Sudan and the age of the “Early Khartoum” tradition
D. ADAMSON*, J. D. CLARK† & M. A. J. WILLIAMS‡
*School of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, New South Wales 2113, Australia †Department of Anthropology, University of California, Berkeley, California 94720 ‡School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, New South Wales 2113, Australia
Barbed bone points, typical of those from the early Holocene settlement of “Early Khartoum”, have been found at three sites along the White Nile, south of Khartoum. The form of the fragments and the stratigraphy of the sites throw light on the environment and technology of the early settlements along this part of the Nile.
The site of Beisamoun is located in the western margins of the Hula Basin, c. 10 km south of Qiryat Shemona. A moderate Mediterranean climate and water resources in the immediate vicinity of the site, such as the ‘Enan and Agamon springs, were one of the major factors for establishing prehistoric settlements in this region, one of which was ‘Ein Mallaha, a major Natufian site in the Levant.
The Guanches are described as white skinned and red haired in Spanish eye-witness reports.
In the 'Chroniciles of the Conquest of the Canaries', the colour of the skin of the inhabitants of the greater parts of the Canaries is described as white, and the hair as fair, reddish or red (''eubellos rubios, rojos, dorados'').
Berthelot informs us that nearly all of the Guanche mummies he had examined had hair which was red (''Ethnografia y Anales de la Conquista de las Ilas Canarias Santa Cruz de Teneriffe, 1849, p. 239).
''Meyer has himself summarised his ideas and those of Von Luschan concerning the Guanches, whom they believe to have been blonds of white skin, and distinguished from two other types which also inhabited the Canaries'' - Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, 1901, p. 136
'The skin of the Guanches is described by the poet Viana as light coloured, and Verneau considers that the hair was blond or light chestnut.'
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You think AFRICANS CAN'T MOVE/ MIGRATE FREELY!! IT ALWAYS HAD TO BE SLAVERY!!!
The first Negroid migration was the Bantu expansion, they moved from West Africa into North, East, South Africa c. 2000 bc - 1000 ad.
Prior to c. 2000 bc, Negroids were only in West Africa. East & North Africa was fully Caucasoid. Those peoples living there before 2000 bc, looked like ME, nothing like Negroids (black people).
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia. [/QB]
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. Which spread into the Levant, Neareast and East-South Europe. Out of them arose E-V13.
The FUR! lol
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sabaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt - such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semai 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980) - show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens.
This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations...... This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005).
In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Dana, I can't believe that you are engaging Cass on such nonsense. Doing so gives his nonsense the element of plausibility. Best to ignore him when he gets this stupid.
First of all your comment suggestts that he isn't always "this stupid". Secondly the reason I engage at all with people of his or Svenska's sort is only to bring out more information.
I am sure people who really want answers out here have the same doubts that assanine people are bringing up here. Some of their psychological blockage is based on the straight-out distortions of European academics who truly are white supremacists and so need to be addressed.
Case in point is the posting above which talks about black slaves and some imaginary race of "fair skinned" Tuareg. If we were to believe such writings fair-skin such as might be found on the average north Moroccan is common to the Tuareg when it is probably less than 5% of them. Just like it is among us African Americans.
The African American - Head of NAACP
Do we go around proclaiming this is how early AFricans looked because some AFrians in America have mixed with Europeans in recent times.
There thus is some more information that needed to get out.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. Which spread into the Levant, Neareast and East-South Europe. Out of them arose E-V13.
lol
"[/QB][/QUOTE]i am wondering what happened to these picture. This is the first time I have seen these men as pink.
The one from Chatal Huyuk or Anatolia at the top is especially strange looking.
ARe these from a Euronut site or something. lol!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Utter nonsense.
The Guanches are described as white skinned and red haired in Spanish eye-witness reports.
In the 'Chroniciles of the Conquest of the Canaries', the colour of the skin of the inhabitants of the greater parts of the Canaries is described as white, and the hair as fair, reddish or red (''eubellos rubios, rojos, dorados'').
Berthelot informs us that nearly all of the Guanche mummies he had examined had hair which was red (''Ethnografia y Anales de la Conquista de las Ilas Canarias Santa Cruz de Teneriffe, 1849, p. 239).
''Meyer has himself summarised his ideas and those of Von Luschan concerning the Guanches, whom they believe to have been blonds of white skin, and distinguished from two other types which also inhabited the Canaries'' - Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, 1901, p. 136
'The skin of the Guanches is described by the poet Viana as light coloured, and Verneau considers that the hair was blond or light chestnut.'
The above is simply LOOOOOL !
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.
Fernández Domínguez, E. et al.
(2005)
The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region.
The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period.
The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods.
The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.
Description: SUMMARY OF DOCTORAL THESIS The origins of European populations have been addressed from different disciplines, highlighting the contribution of population genetics studies. Shuffle two moments in prehistory in which it has been possible to model the gene pool of populations in Europe: the spread of Neolithic and Palaeolithic period expansions. The ability to recover from bygone population genetics provides a unique opportunity to test the assumptions made in situ from other disciplines. We studied 197 samples from 115 dental and bone individuals 17 archaeological sites Sumerian Neolithic and Middle East, when Meroitic Nubia and Paleolithic era, post-Neolithic and Neolithic of the Iberian Peninsula. We obtained complete sequences of mitochondrial DNA of 244 bp of 35 different individuals, were compared with sequences from the same region of present individuals from 38 populations in Europe, Africa and Middle East. In phylogenetic reconstructions based on Reynolds distance groups of ancient samples are grouped together, separated from the rest of current populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions made from the haplotypes of ancient and modern samples denote that although the majority of ancient mitochondrial variants are not present in current populations sampled, may relate more or less closely with them. The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material. ABSTRACT The origins of the European Populations Studied extensively from Have Been Different disciplines. It is Thought That ancient demic expansions, like occurred After the Late Those Glacial Maximum or DURING the Middle East from neolithic diffussion to Europe. The Possibility to recover DNA from past Populations offers an unique Opportunity to test in situ These hypothesis. 197 It Were Analyzed teeth and bones from 115 individuos Archaeological Sites and 17 Different from Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula. It WAS possible to recover mitochondrial DNA sequences 244pb-35 from Different Individuals. They Were 38 Compared to sequences from European, African and Middle Eastern Populations present-day. Phylogenetic Reconstructions from Reynolds genetic distance Showed That ancient samples clustered together, extant from Clearly Separated Populations. Howeve, based phylogenetic Reconstructions on ancient and modern mitochondrial haplotypes Showed That ancient haplotypes are related to extant ones. Haplotype frequencies and haplogroup in samples from the ancient Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula are Different from Those Clearly present in the Same Geographical Nowadays regions. Haplogroups related to J neolithic expansion to Europe, U3, W and X-are absent in ancient middle eastern sample. There are two possible Explanations to this fact. First, It Could Be That the ancient samples possible Analyzed wont be representative of the Middle Eastern Populations That expanded the neolithic. Second, It Could Be That Those haplogroups Also possible wont Have Been made to them in Europe associated with expansions to neolithic demic. At This work It Were Also Examined technical Several Aspects related to the obtention of genuine ancient DNA and the Influence of Different variables in DNA preservation.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. Which spread into the Levant, Neareast and East-South Europe. Out of them arose E-V13.
lol
quote:i am wondering what happened to these picture. This is the first time I have seen these men as pink.
The one from Chatal Huyuk or Anatolia at the top is especially strange looking.
ARe these from a Euronut site or something. lol!
It is probably due to the lighting in the dark cave/ area
"Rites of the early production cultures" Gímszarvasvadászatot painting, Catal Hülyük, BC 5800th k.
This non-profit educational portal was created and designed for Hungarian public education system. Only education and scientific research can be used strictly for non-profit basis. This site has no commercial Purpose and also provided to the Hungarian school system free of charge. It may be used for the sole Purpose of illustration for teaching or research Scientific Strictly and only for non-commercial Purpose.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Dana, I can't believe that you are engaging Cass on such nonsense. Doing so gives his nonsense the element of plausibility. Best to ignore him when he gets this stupid.
First of all your comment suggestts that he isn't always "this stupid". Secondly the reason I engage at all with people of his or Svenska's sort is only to bring out more information.
I am sure people who really want answers out here have the same doubts that assanine people are bringing up here. Some of their psychological blockage is based on the straight-out distortions of European academics who truly are white supremacists and so need to be addressed.
Case in point is the posting above which talks about black slaves and some imaginary race of "fair skinned" Tuareg. If we were to believe such writings fair-skin such as might be found on the average north Moroccan is common to the Tuareg when it is probably less than 5% of them. Just like it is among us African Americans.
The African American - Head of NAACP
Do we go around proclaiming this is how early AFricans looked because some AFrians in America have mixed with Europeans in recent times.
There thus is some more information that needed to get out.
Cosigned strongly!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Utter nonsense.
The Guanches are described as white skinned and red haired in Spanish eye-witness reports.
In the 'Chroniciles of the Conquest of the Canaries', the colour of the skin of the inhabitants of the greater parts of the Canaries is described as white, and the hair as fair, reddish or red (''eubellos rubios, rojos, dorados'').
Berthelot informs us that nearly all of the Guanche mummies he had examined had hair which was red (''Ethnografia y Anales de la Conquista de las Ilas Canarias Santa Cruz de Teneriffe, 1849, p. 239).
''Meyer has himself summarised his ideas and those of Von Luschan concerning the Guanches, whom they believe to have been blonds of white skin, and distinguished from two other types which also inhabited the Canaries'' - Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, 1901, p. 136
'The skin of the Guanches is described by the poet Viana as light coloured, and Verneau considers that the hair was blond or light chestnut.'
The above is simply LOOOOOL !
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.
Fernández Domínguez, E. et al.
(2005)
The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region.
The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period.
The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods.
The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.
Description: SUMMARY OF DOCTORAL THESIS The origins of European populations have been addressed from different disciplines, highlighting the contribution of population genetics studies. Shuffle two moments in prehistory in which it has been possible to model the gene pool of populations in Europe: the spread of Neolithic and Palaeolithic period expansions. The ability to recover from bygone population genetics provides a unique opportunity to test the assumptions made in situ from other disciplines. We studied 197 samples from 115 dental and bone individuals 17 archaeological sites Sumerian Neolithic and Middle East, when Meroitic Nubia and Paleolithic era, post-Neolithic and Neolithic of the Iberian Peninsula. We obtained complete sequences of mitochondrial DNA of 244 bp of 35 different individuals, were compared with sequences from the same region of present individuals from 38 populations in Europe, Africa and Middle East. In phylogenetic reconstructions based on Reynolds distance groups of ancient samples are grouped together, separated from the rest of current populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions made from the haplotypes of ancient and modern samples denote that although the majority of ancient mitochondrial variants are not present in current populations sampled, may relate more or less closely with them. The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. [i]In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. THESE LINES MAY HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED DURING THE SOLUTREAN THE MESOLITHIC OR NEOLITHIC.
That study is very interesting.
Someone witht the guts to mention sub-Saharan Africans in Spain?! - "...the second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula.'
"In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. THESE LINES MAY HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED DURING THE SOLUTREAN THE MESOLITHIC OR NEOLITHIC."
Looks like they are suggesting population replacement in various regions.
Barranco de las letras painting of Iberia
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. Which spread into the Levant, Neareast and East-South Europe. Out of them arose E-V13.
lol
quote:i am wondering what happened to these picture. This is the first time I have seen these men as pink.
The one from Chatal Huyuk or Anatolia at the top is especially strange looking.
ARe these from a Euronut site or something. lol!
It is probably due to the lighting in the dark cave/ area
"Rites of the early production cultures" Gímszarvasvadászatot painting, Catal Hülyük, BC 5800th k.
This non-profit educational portal was created and designed for Hungarian public education system. Only education and scientific research can be used strictly for non-profit basis. This site has no commercial Purpose and also provided to the Hungarian school system free of charge. It may be used for the sole Purpose of illustration for teaching or research Scientific Strictly and only for non-commercial Purpose.
But what I am saying is the paintings I have seen of this same scene from Anatolia on the internet show the person as dark brown not pink-peach. Thus i am questioning what or who is the culprit.
This is a different picture but from the same cave, no?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Utter nonsense.
The Guanches are described as white skinned and red haired in Spanish eye-witness reports.
In the 'Chroniciles of the Conquest of the Canaries', the colour of the skin of the inhabitants of the greater parts of the Canaries is described as white, and the hair as fair, reddish or red (''eubellos rubios, rojos, dorados'').
Berthelot informs us that nearly all of the Guanche mummies he had examined had hair which was red (''Ethnografia y Anales de la Conquista de las Ilas Canarias Santa Cruz de Teneriffe, 1849, p. 239).
''Meyer has himself summarised his ideas and those of Von Luschan concerning the Guanches, whom they believe to have been blonds of white skin, and distinguished from two other types which also inhabited the Canaries'' - Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, 1901, p. 136
'The skin of the Guanches is described by the poet Viana as light coloured, and Verneau considers that the hair was blond or light chestnut.'
The above is simply LOOOOOL !
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.
Fernández Domínguez, E. et al.
(2005)
The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region.
The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period.
The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods.
The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.
Description: SUMMARY OF DOCTORAL THESIS The origins of European populations have been addressed from different disciplines, highlighting the contribution of population genetics studies. Shuffle two moments in prehistory in which it has been possible to model the gene pool of populations in Europe: the spread of Neolithic and Palaeolithic period expansions. The ability to recover from bygone population genetics provides a unique opportunity to test the assumptions made in situ from other disciplines. We studied 197 samples from 115 dental and bone individuals 17 archaeological sites Sumerian Neolithic and Middle East, when Meroitic Nubia and Paleolithic era, post-Neolithic and Neolithic of the Iberian Peninsula. We obtained complete sequences of mitochondrial DNA of 244 bp of 35 different individuals, were compared with sequences from the same region of present individuals from 38 populations in Europe, Africa and Middle East. In phylogenetic reconstructions based on Reynolds distance groups of ancient samples are grouped together, separated from the rest of current populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions made from the haplotypes of ancient and modern samples denote that although the majority of ancient mitochondrial variants are not present in current populations sampled, may relate more or less closely with them. The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. [i]In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. THESE LINES MAY HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED DURING THE SOLUTREAN THE MESOLITHIC OR NEOLITHIC.
That study is very interesting.
Someone witht the guts to mention sub-Saharan Africans in Spain?! - "...the second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula.'
"In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. THESE LINES MAY HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED DURING THE SOLUTREAN THE MESOLITHIC OR NEOLITHIC."
Looks like they are suggesting population replacement in various regions.
Yes, and of course there is a reason why they call North Africans sand niggers!
The Non-Arab Ethnic Groups of Libya Louis Dupree Middle East Journal Vol. 12, No. 1 (Winter, 1958), pp. 33-44
Snub ... Muhammad Ali's nose indicates a quick-witted person
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
I myself am wondering if "Negroids" like those of of Benin and Dahomey originally started off in West Africa how did they come to play such apart in the Palestinian Natufians in the Mesolithic age.
Just another crackpot Afrocentric lie.
The Natufians were fully Caucasoid.
Loring Brace is not an Afrocentric. i can assure you, Cassiterides. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's not an Englishman like yourself.
You'll have to make up your mind . Are "Negroids" Caucasoids now just because they once lived in Palestine and Eurasia.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. Which spread into the Levant, Neareast and East-South Europe. Out of them arose E-V13.
lol
quote:i am wondering what happened to these picture. This is the first time I have seen these men as pink.
The one from Chatal Huyuk or Anatolia at the top is especially strange looking.
ARe these from a Euronut site or something. lol!
It is probably due to the lighting in the dark cave/ area
"Rites of the early production cultures" Gímszarvasvadászatot painting, Catal Hülyük, BC 5800th k.
This non-profit educational portal was created and designed for Hungarian public education system. Only education and scientific research can be used strictly for non-profit basis. This site has no commercial Purpose and also provided to the Hungarian school system free of charge. It may be used for the sole Purpose of illustration for teaching or research Scientific Strictly and only for non-commercial Purpose.
But what I am saying is the paintings I have seen of this same scene from Anatolia on the internet show the person as dark brown not pink-peach. Thus i am questioning what or who is the culprit.
This is a different picture but from the same cave, no?
OK nevermind I see where they have been lightening up this photos of the early Chatal Huyuk rock art. But I am sure they are going to be sorry they went there soon.
Its onoy a matter of time I guess before they try to turn these below also into peaches and cream.
Chatal Huyuk - black "Caucasoids" of the wannabe pyramidologist Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [qb]
I just don't see what the Euronuts are not getting...
"...and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
---Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. Human Biology, Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
Are Ricaut and Waelkens Afronuts.too? Actually now i am being the stupid one because of course no Euronut is going to every admit that ancient civilization was in fact NEGRO CIVILIZATION.
That inescapable fact is inescapably blocked in their minds as is the fact that people who were THE BULK of the slaves in HUMAN HISTORY were closely related to EUROPEANS. This hurts too much - literally. So in reality I don't blame them. It is a survival tactic, for among those who are the least intelligient and instinctively motivated.
They just need to click there heels together and repeat to themselves - there is no place in early civilization without the Negro, there is no place in early civilization without the Negro, there is no place in early civilization without the Negro and then I bet things should all be fine.
The Negro and civilization "so happy together..."
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Why is it on average Tuaregs look like this?
They don't. The average Tuareg is still predominantly Caucasoid.
''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
Still though they are pred Caucasoid.
There is really little Negroid (Black) about them...
Those last two are clearly mixed and look like Ethiopians [/QB]
Which is a fact, and based on historical accounts correct. Genetically, ethnologically, linguistically etc...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Patty will show you one paternal study by Ottoni et. al but not the other Ottoni studies. Why is that?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
also by Ottoni, et al:
First genetic insight into Libyan Tuaregs: a maternal perspective.
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia.
Troll Patty in light of a more comprehensive look at Tuareg genetics by your source Ottoni et al what do have to say for yourself?
.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
This is perhaps one of the most important statements about the lack of J absent in the Middle Eastern sample.
"'Haplogroups related to J neolithic expansion to Europe, U3, W and X-are absent in the ancient middle eastern sample. There are two possible explanations to this fact. First, it could be that the ancient samples possibly analyzed won't ? be representative of the Middle Eastern populations that expanded the neolithic..."
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Notice how the lighter skin lower caste vassal Tuareg are rarely shown wearing the indigo veil of the nobles.
Half-caste Tuareg are lower caste Tuareg. Get it! Got it! Good!
come on dana what you said is nonsense
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Troll Patty will show you one paternal study by Ottoni et. al but not the other Ottoni studies. Why is that?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
also by Ottoni, et al:
First genetic insight into Libyan Tuaregs: a maternal perspective.
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia.
Troll Patty in light of a more comprehensive look at Tuareg genetics by your source Ottoni et al what do have to say for yourself?
.
You already have posted this white boy.
And I already have responded to this, white boy.
IT'S A HYPOTHESIS THEY SUGGEST. As I wonder who these "mythical females" were, and how they ended up there? What is their history? Go ahead and elaborate.....why did they migrate in North Africa after the Holocene and what is their origin???
-This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
-Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]
Since there is no ancient history of cold adapted Europeans in the Sahara or Sahel region. It's mere a fantasy by some Europeans. Such thing isn't even in the collective mind or historic accounts of Sahara Sahel tradition. If that were to be true, believe me white boy, it would be known! But it's simple NOT!
But fact is the SEX BASE FROM RECENT INPUT of SAQALIBA AND MAMLUK SLAVES! These same people have been taken to Spain as well. As a matter of FACT people from that particular region have been the major component and BULK of enslaved Europeans all throughout history! YET NOT ONE WORD!!!! ?
They never mentioned any of that part this actual RECORDED history, course. Dana just spoke of this peculiar behaviour in a post. And wallah here you have it.
Can't you see you put yourself in a corner, each time you post.
Claim your a African American woman, yet don't know a damn thing about American black culture, hair etc... lol
Only biased, prejudiced thinking and stereotypes is what you are familiar with.
Each time you post about this you are being exposed more, you filthy liar!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: [qb]
I wonder if Tupac Shakur or his father would like the way u are talking about his tribe.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Notice how the lighter skin lower caste vassal Tuareg are rarely shown wearing the indigo veil of the nobles.
Half-caste Tuareg are lower caste Tuareg. Get it! Got it! Good!
come on dana what you said is nonsense
Wearing a blue or light blue turban and living in Morocco doesn't make one Tuareg - just so you know.
Where are the fair-skinned Tuareg wearing blue indigo veils if its nonsense?
BTW - what's nonsensical is your inability to accept what 80% of modern Tuareg still look like.
Like us!
Posting Tuareg of the vassal caste including one that looks like Barack Obama is not going to help you. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Do not be jealous, Svenska.
You also had your veiled people in Circassia somewhere - probably in a harem.
Look you were even in Morocco not just brought into Timbuktu by the Tuareg - The Moors: A Comprehensive Description in the chapter "Slavery among the Moors" says “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords. These, too, are sometimes brought to Morocco, where they fetch high prices, if offered at all to the public ; as much, sometimes, as a couple of hundred pounds or more, of which they are very proud..."
Yes that description was regard to Morocco Svenska not Algeria.
Be proud Svenska - “These women are beautiful in the eyes of all nations; they are sought after in all parts of the world: they bear the sway in all the seraglios of Asia, Africa, and Europe, because they possess that union of pleasing features, that just proportion in all the parts of the body, that freshness, those brilliant colours,..." The Circassians, Miscellany [NJ], Jul 15, 1805: 23
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
^ The retard above hasn't yet realised race is far more than about mere skin pigmentation.
The Tuareg in craniometric analyses cluster with Caucasoids, they are predominantly leptorrhine-mesorrhine, and orthognathic. Their hair texture is also Caucasoid, not nappy haired like Negroids.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ The retard above hasn't yet realised race is far more than about mere skin pigmentation.
The Tuareg in craniometric analyses cluster with Caucasoids, they are predominantly leptorrhine-mesorrhine, and orthognathic. Their hair texture is also Caucasoid, not nappy haired like Negroids.
Actually there is no such ting as "race" numbskull. And no - these Africans with their naturally nappy hair before they put oil on it are not related to you except for formerly having many some slave concubines from Europe.
Are you out of polytechnic school, yet, or did you drop out.
Like this little Tuareg girl from Mali, We can't all be perfect and have your long flowing hair now can we.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ The retard above hasn't yet realised race is far more than about mere skin pigmentation.
The Tuareg in craniometric analyses cluster with Caucasoids, they are predominantly leptorrhine-mesorrhine, and orthognathic. Their hair texture is also Caucasoid, not nappy haired like Negroids.
Says who? A Euronut's website? Elongated hamites and other Watusi-related people don't cluster with YOU! Just remember what Ricaut and Waelkens said. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ The retard above hasn't yet realised race is far more than about mere skin pigmentation.
The Tuareg in craniometric analyses cluster with Caucasoids, they are predominantly leptorrhine-mesorrhine, and orthognathic. Their hair texture is also Caucasoid, not nappy haired like Negroids.
Says who? A Euronut's website? Elongated hamites and other Watusi-related people don't cluster with YOU! Just remember what Ricaut and Waelkens said.
I like to see that paper of what he claims, for myself. If trully so, they probably took some heave admixed Saqaliba or Mamluk descents, or even on of those colonialist descendants from Spain, Portugal or Turkey, in Libya.
You know how these extreme racist work. Trying to show the world their miraculous history. Now claiming Tuaregs are caucasiods. lol
I like to see how a bunch of white women managed to go by foot from extreme cold Europe all the way to Sahara and Sahel Africa. And mix with the indigenous populations.
The Sahel-Sahara region is at least the size of Europe. lol
The landmass Tuaregs cover is at least as large as the entire of South Europe.
Even funnier it get's when you break it down. And see how they claim they have spread into the belt from East to West, from Northeast all the way up to the Sahel. And mixed with everybody their. A landmass as large as Europe itself. Yet, there is no memory of such event by the people. lol
Or another analogy,
The Sahara desert covers around 9,000,000 square kilometers and the overall area is as large as the continental United States. The Sahara desert also has the reputation of being the world's largest hot desert!
This hot desert has annual temperatures that can exceed 30 degrees C. Some of the hottest months have temperatures exceeding 50 degrees C. In the winters, the temperatures drop below freezing points. This itself explains the diverse climates of this hot desert.
So basically a bunch of white women lived in a extreme cold European environment for thousands of years. Then when the ice broke down...they quickly moved to Hot Africa...to a place which was becoming a extreme hot desert zone...makes sense...huhmmm complete sense. lol
They also make movies like Tarzan the King of the Jungle. And many other weird claims.
The Tuareg have slaves and a caste system to this day and historically had been the link between slave trading from slave trading from Central Africa to the Mediterranean. Wake the hell up Niger is one of the world’s poorest countries. Its economy is based on agriculture and subsistence farming, and life is particularly hard in the Ader region, which is in the Sahel and suffers from droughts. Around 85% of the region’s population are illiterate. In the mid-1800s the area was conquered by Tuareg warriors, under whom the economy became increasingly reliant on slave labour. It is estimated that in pre-colonial times up to 30-40% of the population may have had slave or servile status.
I don't care who looks like what, the Tuareg are backward and they exploit other Africans ancient Timbuktu, has been closed to tourists this year (kidnappings) and is now on the verge of being seized by Tuareg rebels, but it goes beyond that. It's important to remember-- though the Western media doesn't ever report it-- that the Tuaregs who are now trying to carve out their own country there, only "gave up" widespread slavery a few years ago and only because of a catastrophic drought. To the Tuaregs this was a temporary imposition and they still hold tens of thousands of people in Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso in slavery. In Mali, the Bella are still slaves to the Tuareg in all but name. Keeping that in mind will help you understand why people are fleeing from the northern part of the country as the Tuaregs advance on cities like Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. In the 1950s, many people in the southern Sahara, mostly Tuareg, did not want to be ruled by Blacks (sound familiar?). The racial divide was an old one, but the French colonizers had nurtured it, even doped it up just before independence. They promised to create a separate Saharan territory expressly for the Tuareg, one that would stay under French rule. When independence came in 1960, and much of the Sahara became Malian territory, many Tuareg considered this a betrayal — the ‘other’ Whites had left them to be ruled by the Blacks. Some have been in revolt, on and off, ever since. This history isn’t pretty, and the racism cuts both ways. The extreme violence with which Mali put down a Tuareg revolt in the early ’60s didn’t help. They might have killed a lot of people, but they didn’t kill the dream. Today’s claims for an independent ‘Azawad’ are based on an old racial rhetoric and a newer nationalist veneer.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You people are bufoons.
The Tuareg have slaves and a caste system to this day and historically had been the link between slave trading from slave trading from Central Africa to the Mediterranean. Wake the hell up Niger is one of the world’s poorest countries. Its economy is based on agriculture and subsistence farming, and life is particularly hard in the Ader region, which is in the Sahel and suffers from droughts. Around 85% of the region’s population are illiterate. In the mid-1800s the area was conquered by Tuareg warriors, under whom the economy became increasingly reliant on slave labour. It is estimated that in pre-colonial times up to 30-40% of the population may have had slave or servile status.
I don't care who looks like what, the Tuareg are backward and they exploit other Africans ancient Timbuktu, has been closed to tourists this year (kidnappings) and is now on the verge of being seized by Tuareg rebels, but it goes beyond that. It's important to remember-- though the Western media doesn't ever report it-- that the Tuaregs who are now trying to carve out their own country there, only "gave up" widespread slavery a few years ago and only because of a catastrophic drought. To the Tuaregs this was a temporary imposition and they still hold tens of thousands of people in Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso in slavery. In Mali, the Bella are still slaves to the Tuareg in all but name. Keeping that in mind will help you understand why people are fleeing from the northern part of the country as the Tuaregs advance on cities like Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. In the 1950s, many people in the southern Sahara, mostly Tuareg, did not want to be ruled by Blacks (sound familiar?). The racial divide was an old one, but the French colonizers had nurtured it, even doped it up just before independence. They promised to create a separate Saharan territory expressly for the Tuareg, one that would stay under French rule. When independence came in 1960, and much of the Sahara became Malian territory, many Tuareg considered this a betrayal — the ‘other’ Whites had left them to be ruled by the Blacks. Some have been in revolt, on and off, ever since. This history isn’t pretty, and the racism cuts both ways. The extreme violence with which Mali put down a Tuareg revolt in the early ’60s didn’t help. They might have killed a lot of people, but they didn’t kill the dream. Today’s claims for an independent ‘Azawad’ are based on an old racial rhetoric and a newer nationalist veneer.
No, you are the bufoon here.
From the start I stated slavery was and is everywhere. But your claim is that darker skinned Tuaregs are merely slaves or slave descendants. And lightskinned are orignal from Europe or Eurasia. This is the problem here, with you and your racist European cohorts (insinuations). It's very typical for western journalism to write and synthesize in a certain way with specific words. It's part of what is called propaganda.
Never will you white folks claim that one group of Europeans wasn't the original population, thou they enslaved another European (white) population. Slavery is still a big thing in Europe. Most from the region, as it was during the entire history. You know.
Now, can you explain why Tuaregs rebelled in Mali or better yet had to flee?
Your interpreting inner conflicts in a weird way, with misinformation.
Lastly, why is it those geneticists don't write in their papers about Saqaliba and Mamluks or colonialist descendants from Spain, Portuagal, Italy, Turkey....?
As if it never happend.lol
It's all totally un-objective.
We even had tens of thousands of Turkish descendants quickly moving out of Libya, fleeing the country going back to Turkey, shortly before the revolution started.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: From the start I stated slavery was and is everywhere. But your claim is that darker skinned Tuaregs are merely slaves or slave descendants. And lightskinned are orignal from Europe or Eurasia.
I never said anything as simplistic as " lightskinned are orignal from Europe".
The Tuaregs are nomadic and are compised of many ethnicties of various skin tones in NA. Ikelan and Bella slave classes derive from Tuareg going South into regions closer to the eqautor where people are darker and less admixted
Iklan (slaves) or former slaves descendants of the captives. The latter, known as Bella in Mali and Bouzou in Niger, are of black or half-cast origin. Today they form a sizeable part of the Tuareg society and, like their former masters, they speak Tamasheq. The lklan, however, are distinguished by a number of categories: The lderfen, often settled and freed for several generations; The lborroliten, half-cast born of marriage between lmrad and lklan. They are freed by their parents; The Iklan-n-Eguef (captives of the dunes), shepherds and cultivators of lmajeren; The tent Iklan, servants living with their masters.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: From the start I stated slavery was and is everywhere. But your claim is that darker skinned Tuaregs are merely slaves or slave descendants. And lightskinned are orignal from Europe or Eurasia.
I never said anything as simplistic as " lightskinned are orignal from Europe".
The Tuaregs are nomadic and are compised of many ethnicties of various skin tones in NA. Ikelan and Bella slave classes derive from Tuareg going South into regions closer to the eqautor wher peopel are darker
Iklan (slaves) or former slaves descendants of the captives. The latter, known as Bella in Mali and Bouzou in Niger, are of black or half-cast origin. Today they form a sizeable part of the Tuareg society and, like their former masters, they speak Tamasheq. The lklan, however, are distinguished by a number of categories: The lderfen, often settled and freed for several generations; The lborroliten, half-cast born of marriage between lmrad and lklan. They are freed by their parents; The Iklan-n-Eguef (captives of the dunes), shepherds and cultivators of lmajeren; The tent Iklan, servants living with their masters.
No, you did not. But the suggestion was in the citations and quotes. That is the problem here. These writers don't write objective. They write from a Eurocentric mindset. In other words propaganda. And we can see this everywhere around the world.
As you did it again, only you don't realize it, perhaps.
The asses of those Europeans was captured because of the bullsh*t they write and claim. They come off as a friend, but it's really subliminal.
Posted by Ausar Amen8 (Member # 20085) on :
Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Mali's President Amadou Toumani Toure (seated in purple) meets representatives of the largest armed group of Tuareg coming back from Libya at the presidential palace in Bamako on December 3, 2011. Malian army coup
Note the differences
_________________________________________ Thousands of Tuareg soldiers in Gaddafi’s employ fled Libya as fast as they could, usually in convoys laden with money and weapons, many returning home to Mali. By the end of 2011, a new rebel group was born, fighting for the independence of “Azawad”, or northern Mali. This isn’t the first Tuareg-led rebellion in Mali or surrounding countries, and it won’t be the last.
The Tuareg rebels are delighted at the chaos in the capital, and have already announced their intention to take advantage. Given that the Malian army is in no state right now to offer any resistance, and that any international support for Mali will dry up in the wake of the coup, it seems the rebels will have the upper hand over the coup-plotters, for now.
All this is bad news for the region as a whole. The government of Niger, especially, will be terrified that the success of a Tuareg rebellion in Mali will embolden the Tuaregs in Niger to do the same thing. The Americans will be worried that al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, already active in the region, will feed off the instability and emerge stronger than ever before. But most serious is the already dire humanitarian situation – the violence in the area, coupled with terrible crops, is creating conditions which could lead to famine if not urgently addressed. Already, hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced, but if the problems do spread to neighbouring countries then they will have nowhere else to go.
The coup in Mali – presuming it succeeds – will be a defining moment for the country and for the region as a whole, and not in a good way. It’s a massive step backwards which the people of the Sahel – already some of the poorest in the world – are in no position to afford.
Posted by Ausar Amen8 (Member # 20085) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I am sorry. I see no Malien Tuareg rebels. Please repost only the photo you say you posted of them. I am asking for one, and only one solo photo, that being the photo of Malien Tuareg rebels you claim to have already posted somewhere (in this thread?).
Yes you are right, I'm surprised dana didn't catch my error here.
Tha above are renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo, not Tuareg rebels
The article's picture above is a little misleading, the title:
Malian Tuareg rebels seize key northern town of Timbuktu.
yet the photo below this headline shows renegade Malian soldiers led by Amadou Haya Sanogo who mounted a coup d’état out of anger at the government's inability to contain the two-month-old Tuareg rebellion in north of the country.
_______________________________________________
Here are some actual Tuareg rebels followed by a few Tuaregs (civilian)
Iddar Ag Ogazide is taking a break from digging and shovelling in 40C Malian Sahel heat. He is happy just to be working. "Today I am a free man, I am longer a slave. I am among men who are the same colour as me who consider me as a man. I earn 1,000 CFA ($2, £1) a day, and that covers my needs," he says
The idea of a salary is something Iddar is just getting used to, having dramatically escaped from his life in the hamlet of Intakabarte, outside Gao, in February this year. According to Iddar, his grandmother was bought as a slave by the Tuareg Ag Baye family, and from then on she was listed as taxable property on the Ag Baye's religious tax form. Iddar says he was inherited by his master, beaten several times, and never received pay or an education. The final straw for Iddar came when his three-year-old son Ahmed was taken away to work for a niece of the Ag Baye family. "I decided I would have to go and get him so I hatched a plan. I told my master that I needed to take Ahmed to his grandparents," he says. "I said we would both return the next day, but we never went back." Iddar was fortunate to find members of the Bamako-based human rights organisation Temedt to help him when he fled to Gao, about 1,200km north-east from the capital, Bamako. Harsh life According to Temedt, there may be thousands of people still living either in slavery or slavery-like conditions in modern Mali.
"The situation has not changed with the arrival of democracy," says Mohammed Ag Akeratane, the president of Temedt. Although the government formally ended slavery in the 1960s after independence, Temedt says it is still practised in the far north of the country between Berber-descended Tuareg nomads and darker-skinned Bella or Black Tamasheq people. It is also believed to exist in other groups such as Songhai and Peul. But many argue that the situation cannot truly be described as slavery. Life is harsh in the Sahara's hinterland - in towns such as Ansongo and Menaka much property and livestock remains in Tuareg hands. Some argue that with few jobs and opportunities, it may be easier for some Bella to live within what is regarded as the protection of a Tuareg family. "For example, I have an encampment and many people have come to live with us, seeking refuge from war and famine," says Mahmoud Ag Hattabo, the Tuareg mayor of Tinahamma near Gao. "They help us with rearing the animals and general work. "But this is not slavery like you would find in the Koran." 'Free to leave' The Malian authorities seem to agree "The Bella people are free to leave their masters if they wish," said a source, who asked not to be named, in Mali's Territorial Administration department. "If people came out to declare openly that they are slaves then of course the state would do something." But for Temedt, which means solidarity in the Tamasheq language of the north, it is time for Mali to face reality. "Slavery is taboo, no-one wants to talk about it," says Mr Ag Akeratane. "Particularly at the level of the authorities they will not accept that it persists." The case of Iddar Ag Ogazide, and several other escapees in Gao, is clear-cut for Anti-Slavery International, a London-based human rights organisation and campaign group which supports Temedt. "Like his parents before him, Iddar was born a slave, a status ascribed to him at birth, and grew up under the total control of a master who exacted labour from him for no remuneration", says Anti-Slavery International's Romana Cacchioli. "In my view Iddar's case is a clear case of slavery." Temedt has instructed a lawyer to work with Iddar to see if he has a case for compensation. But this is difficult because although Mali has signed international conventions against slavery and the nation's constitution states that all men are born equal, there is no domestic law banning the practice. "The difficulty of constructing a case for Iddar demonstrates the need for a law criminalising slavery in Mali," says Mr Cacchioli. former slave "Iddar Ag Ogazide" and wife
Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mali's President Amadou Toumani Toure (seated in purple) meets representatives of the largest armed group of Tuareg coming back from Libya at the presidential palace in Bamako on December 3, 2011. Malian army coup
Note the differences
_________________________________________ Thousands of Tuareg soldiers in Gaddafi’s employ fled Libya as fast as they could, usually in convoys laden with money and weapons, many returning home to Mali. By the end of 2011, a new rebel group was born, fighting for the independence of “Azawad”, or northern Mali. This isn’t the first Tuareg-led rebellion in Mali or surrounding countries, and it won’t be the last.
The Tuareg rebels are delighted at the chaos in the capital, and have already announced their intention to take advantage. Given that the Malian army is in no state right now to offer any resistance, and that any international support for Mali will dry up in the wake of the coup, it seems the rebels will have the upper hand over the coup-plotters, for now.
All this is bad news for the region as a whole. The government of Niger, especially, will be terrified that the success of a Tuareg rebellion in Mali will embolden the Tuaregs in Niger to do the same thing. The Americans will be worried that al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, already active in the region, will feed off the instability and emerge stronger than ever before. But most serious is the already dire humanitarian situation – the violence in the area, coupled with terrible crops, is creating conditions which could lead to famine if not urgently addressed. Already, hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced, but if the problems do spread to neighbouring countries then they will have nowhere else to go.
The coup in Mali – presuming it succeeds – will be a defining moment for the country and for the region as a whole, and not in a good way. It’s a massive step backwards which the people of the Sahel – already some of the poorest in the world – are in no position to afford.
Perhaps you don't know, but the Tuareg in Mali make up a small portion. They aren't in the position to enslave masses of people. They need to keep it on the down...hush hush....but yes, because of the historic events they are being disliked by many Africans, surrounding them.
Tuaregs had to flee from Mali. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
God this person is so stupid..LMAO. Do you even know who the other red skinned people are in your quote??
So now according to lioness Logic the Amharas and Tebou people are not black either...LMAO
We already know what the Noble Taureg look like.
The Songhai etc. who the Taureg are supposed to be lighter than and who they took slaves from Also held slaves, Im sure many POW from defeated Tauregs but I doubt Europeans such as yourself will mention that..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ausar Amen8: Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
No one picture represents the nomadic Tuaregs they are comprised of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. However except for a relaitively light skin tone of SOME Turaegs they do not look like Khosians who typically have wide faces and eyes that can look similar to East Asians
One example of some Turaeg rebels: Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Ausar Amen8: Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
No one picture represents the nomadic Tuaregs they are comprised of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. However except for a relaitively light skin tone of SOME Turaegs they do not look like Khosians who typically have wide faces and eyes that can look similar to East Asians
One example of some Turaeg rebels:
Tuaregs cluster close with Beja type. More like Cushitic. Therefore are E-M81 genetic drifted.
And as you can see one is dark complected and the other light complected. Side-by-side. Fighting for one cause as always has been the case.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: God this person is so stupid..LMAO. Do you even know who the other red skinned people are in your quote??
So now according to lioness Logic the Amharas and Tebou people are not black either...LMAO
We already know what the Noble Taureg look like.
The Songhai etc. who the Taureg are supposed to be lighter than and who they took slaves from Also held slaves, Im sure many POW from defeated Tauregs but I doubt Europeans such as yourself will mention that..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves.
although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves. Some look black African and others, often of higher caste look like non-African Arabs. This is a fact
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: God this person is so stupid..LMAO. Do you even know who the other red skinned people are in your quote??
So now according to lioness Logic the Amharas and Tebou people are not black either...LMAO
We already know what the Noble Taureg look like.
The Songhai etc. who the Taureg are supposed to be lighter than and who they took slaves from Also held slaves, Im sure many POW from defeated Tauregs but I doubt Europeans such as yourself will mention that..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Tuareg refer to themselves as "red-skinned," like most other Saharan peoples including the Maures, Tubu, and Amhara. Slaves were taken as prisoners of war as the Tuareg moved south beginning in the 11th century AD, and many slaves may have originated among Songhay, Djerma and Hausa communities, groups that also held slaves.
although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves. Some look black African and others, often of higher caste look like non-African Arabs. This is a fact
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
I don't think anyone is saying he has no admixture. It's more the correlation of historic events. What, when... how...
The survey of diagnostic markers 4313, 8966, 9148 and 14560 in 50 individuals characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype showed that all of these clustered within the two novel sub-clades H1v1 and H1w identified by initial sequencing of the eight entire mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 control-region motif.
Overall the 64 Libyan Tuareg mtDNAs belonging to H1 (Table S2) were mostly distributed between the clades H1v1 (38%) and H1w(53%), with a minor component (9%) belonging instead to clade H1x. Within H1v1, half of the Libyan Tuareg (i.e. 12 individuals, equal to 50%) were characterized by the transition at np 9148 (sub-clade H1v1a) and half by the transition at np 14560 (sub-clade H1v1b).
-It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades.
Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.
To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples, HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2.
-The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward...
-Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively.
-Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).
-This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
-Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]
.
Ironically, >hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia.
It's an Islamic country. Indonisia wants to impose sharia also.
quote:Originally posted by Ausar Amen8: Not that I know much about what is going on in this thread but I thought I should put in a bit of information that I thought might help, which is that these pictures of Tuareg rebels as they called, are no different looking that numerous Khoisan and some Cape Nguni folk (who are mixed with the Khoi of course): Tuareg man, Mali
You do Not know what you are talking about. The and the San vary in how they look. Some look like Ethiopians actually while the majority have epicanthic folds. And by the way, the Khoi and the San are quite distinct.
Tuareg woman, Mali
Tureg man, Mali
No one picture represents the nomadic Tuaregs they are comprised of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds. However except for a relaitively light skin tone of SOME Turaegs they do not look like Khosians who typically have wide faces and eyes that can look similar to East Asians
One example of some Turaeg rebels:
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks, no matter what they call themselves. Same with the Amharas, Tebu, Sudanese, Fallahin etc who make the same claims.
Heck their The Ancestors of the Taureg, the Garamantes, were compared to Africans living in Modern Day Northern Sudan, probably the Beja clans who still today live in places like Aswan etc.
The closest relatives to the Taureg are the Beja another African people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves.
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia [/QUOTE]
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Do not be jealous, Svenska.
You also had your veiled people in Circassia somewhere - probably in a harem.
Look you were even in Morocco not just brought into Timbuktu by the Tuareg - The Moors: A Comprehensive Description in the chapter "Slavery among the Moors" says “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via braltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords. These, too, are sometimes brought to Morocco, where they fetch high prices, if offered at all to the public ; as much, sometimes, as a couple of hundred pounds or more, of which they are very proud..."
Yes that description was regard to Morocco Svenska not Algeria.
Be proud Svenska - “These women are beautiful in the eyes of all nations; they are sought after in all parts of the world: they bear the sway in all the seraglios of Asia, Africa, and Europe, because they possess that union of pleasing features, that just proportion in all the parts of the body, that freshness, those brilliant colours,..." The Circassians, Miscellany [NJ], Jul 15, 1805: 23
Yup, and the Tuareg are central to trade and always have been traders within the Sahara/ Sahel region. With those surrounding them.
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
Back to reality...
The Tuarags are predominantly Caucasoid
''The Tuarags have Caucasoid features and are tall.. with heavy brow ridges.'' - Ethnological elements of Africa, Robert Gayre, 1966, p. 58
''The physical characteristics of the Tuareg are those of the Caucasian'' - The Tuareg of the Sahara. H. R. Palmer Journal of the Royal African Society Vol. 31, No. 123 (Apr., 1932), pp. 153-166
Though yes, they have some Negroid admixture through recent intermarriage...
''...the Tuareg - have a mixture of African and Caucasoid genes'' - The history and geography of human genes, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994, p. 194
The original Tuareg's however were Caucasoid Berbers.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
lol at this ignorant retarded european Brit above, who doesn't no a damn thing about the analogy and traditions. Nor do those writers he quoted.
NBP supporter with a "being captured, kidnaping fetish" by Tuaregs. What can we expect?
Berbers aren't caucasiod and Tuaregs are certainly not!
Idiotic european nonsense!
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
Berbers are Caucasoid.
''The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a common ancestor'' - Coudray et al. 2008
''The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast were probably Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a distinct population with some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the ability to sail.'' - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Languages, Penguin, 2001, p.122
''The third discrete racial element in Africa is the Caucasoid, which, as indicated earlier, first entered the continent in massive invasions about 15,000 years ago, certainly from Western Asia and possibly also from Europe. The descendants of those invaders who are still fully or essentially Caucasoid are the Berbers.'' - Carleton S. Coon, The Living Races of Man, New York: Alfred A Knopf, 1965, p.115
''After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berbers of Africa.'' - Christiane Desroches Noblecourt, Colette Roubet, Lionel Balout, La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie, Paris, Rech. sur les Civilisations, 1985, p. 383
''Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E and U6, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.'' - Rando et al. 1998.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Berbers are Caucasoid.
''The genetic proximity observed between the Berbers and southern Europeans reveals that these groups shared a common ancestor'' - Coudray et al. 2008
''The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast were probably Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a distinct population with some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the ability to sail.'' - Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Languages, Penguin, 2001, p.122
''The third discrete racial element in Africa is the Caucasoid, which, as indicated earlier, first entered the continent in massive invasions about 15,000 years ago, certainly from Western Asia and possibly also from Europe. The descendants of those invaders who are still fully or essentially Caucasoid are the Berbers.'' - Carleton S. Coon, The Living Races of Man, New York: Alfred A Knopf, 1965, p.115
''After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berbers of Africa.'' - Christiane Desroches Noblecourt, Colette Roubet, Lionel Balout, La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie, Paris, Rech. sur les Civilisations, 1985, p. 383
''Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E and U6, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.'' - Rando et al. 1998.
Berbers aren't cacasoid, THEY DO HAVE ADMIXTURE that of Eurasian females!
They are intermediate. Making up a multiethnic group of people. And also multi-diverse. The name Berber is simply a CLUSTER WORD for many tribes.
From the top of my head. U6 makes up the downstream, North African component: U6: 9.5 %. generally makes up in Berbers due to Moorish connections with Spain! Algeria had some populations with a pretty high frequency of this marker. But in general not!
The downstream and East African genetic drift, North African component: E1b1b (mainly E-M81) 50-90 %!
Depending on the population and region!
Caucasian
1807, from Caucasus Mountains, between the Black and Caspian seas; applied to the "white" race 1795 (in Ger.) by Ger. anthropologist Johann Blumenbach, because their supposed ancestral homeland lay there; since abandoned as a historical/anthropological term. Lit. meaning "resident or native of the Caucasus" is from 1843.
The mountain range name is from Gk. kaukhasis, said by Pliny ("Natural History," book six, chap. XVII) to be from a Scythian word similar to kroy-khasis, lit. "(the mountain) ice-shining, white with snow." But possibly from a Pelasgian root *kau- meaning "mountain."
Berbers are multiethnic and a multimixture!lol
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period
By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr
Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You people are bufoons.
The Tuareg have slaves and a caste system to this day and historically had been the link between slave trading from slave trading from Central Africa to the Mediterranean. Wake the hell up Niger is one of the world’s poorest countries. Its economy is based on agriculture and subsistence farming, and life is particularly hard in the Ader region, which is in the Sahel and suffers from droughts. Around 85% of the region’s population are illiterate. In the mid-1800s the area was conquered by Tuareg warriors, under whom the economy became increasingly reliant on slave labour. It is estimated that in pre-colonial times up to 30-40% of the population may have had slave or servile status.
I don't care who looks like what, the Tuareg are backward and they exploit other Africans ancient Timbuktu, has been closed to tourists this year (kidnappings) and is now on the verge of being seized by Tuareg rebels, but it goes beyond that. It's important to remember-- though the Western media doesn't ever report it-- that the Tuaregs who are now trying to carve out their own country there, only "gave up" widespread slavery a few years ago and only because of a catastrophic drought. To the Tuaregs this was a temporary imposition and they still hold tens of thousands of people in Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso in slavery. In Mali, the Bella are still slaves to the Tuareg in all but name. Keeping that in mind will help you understand why people are fleeing from the northern part of the country as the Tuaregs advance on cities like Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. In the 1950s, many people in the southern Sahara, mostly Tuareg, did not want to be ruled by Blacks (sound familiar?). The racial divide was an old one, but the French colonizers had nurtured it, even doped it up just before independence. They promised to create a separate Saharan territory expressly for the Tuareg, one that would stay under French rule. When independence came in 1960, and much of the Sahara became Malian territory, many Tuareg considered this a betrayal — the ‘other’ Whites had left them to be ruled by the Blacks. Some have been in revolt, on and off, ever since. This history isn’t pretty, and the racism cuts both ways. The extreme violence with which Mali put down a Tuareg revolt in the early ’60s didn’t help. They might have killed a lot of people, but they didn’t kill the dream. Today’s claims for an independent ‘Azawad’ are based on an old racial rhetoric and a newer nationalist veneer.
Romans enslaved other Europeans and exploited them to no end. Yet Rome is one of the pillars by which Western Society is based on. My point is, what's your point? Toureg are black people they have always been black. They enslaved Africans as well as Europeans (which is why some of them are white now).
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
@TrollPatrol
Good post bro, I love how eurocentric researches like to play dumb. MILLIONS of whites, both men and women were enslaved in North Africa hence the mongrelization of the population. Yet they want to attribute to some "ancient" influx of magical, mystical white people. Didn't happen. Whites were enslaves by the MILLIONS, changed the face of North Africa, end of story. Africans do not do things in half measures. We go ALL in and keep doing it until its all gone. So yeah, its only natural for Africans I mean, to have done what they did. It is also only natural for whites to have responded the way they did.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks, no matter what they call themselves. Same with the Amharas, Tebu, Sudanese, Fallahin etc who make the same claims.
Heck their The Ancestors of the Taureg, the Garamantes, were compared to Africans living in Modern Day Northern Sudan, probably the Beja clans who still today live in places like Aswan etc.
The closest relatives to the Taureg are the Beja another African people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves.
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia
[/QUOTE] Man, the Europeans will still some ish, wont they? Liked Egypt, they stole that, like science, stole that from Africa. Liked history of the diaspora, stole and marginalized that as well. Your not careful, if you post to much good information on these boards, they might still you too.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: @TrollPatrol
Good post bro, I love how eurocentric researches like to play dumb. MILLIONS of whites, both men and women were enslaved in North Africa hence the mongrelization of the population. Yet they want to attribute to some "ancient" influx of magical, mystical white people. Didn't happen. Whites were enslaves by the MILLIONS, changed the face of North Africa, end of story. Africans do not do things in half measures. We go ALL in and keep doing it until its all gone. So yeah, its only natural for Africans I mean, to have done what they did. It is also only natural for whites to have responded the way they did.
Yes, they are dishonest folks.
Even up till this and time Spain has occupied space in part of Morocco.
And the name Casablanca speaks volumes.
To claim Berbers as europeans/ whites/ cacasoid is just another crazy claim. Despite of all the admixture they still look like this.
They also had this little Saami theory...
Well check this out.
So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?
Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.
The genetics of the Saami people and their language
(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)
Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.
I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.
The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century
And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.
Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.
quote:Despite of all the admixture they still look like this
No they don't. You clearly know nothing on the racial makeup of Berbers.
The genetic composition of Berbers is as follows:
75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28).
Source: Am. J. Hum. Genet., 68:1019-1029, 2001.
So recent Negroid admixture is only 8%, and recent European gene flow as small as 4%.
The Berbers are majority of indigenous North African Caucasoid stock.
What the average Berber looks like -
Predominantly Caucasoid.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Quite true Cass.
They are called "MULATTOES"!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Despite of all the admixture they still look like this
No they don't. You clearly know nothing on the racial makeup of Berbers.
The genetic composition of Berbers is as follows:
75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28).
Source: Am. J. Hum. Genet., 68:1019-1029, 2001.
So recent Negroid admixture is only 8%, and recent European gene flow as small as 4%.
The Berbers are majority of indigenous North African Caucasoid stock.
What the average Berber looks like -
Predominantly Caucasoid.
YES THEY DO!
HE IS ALGERIAN REMEMBER!!!!!!!
TELL, WHAT IS IS ETHIC BACKGROUND! WHICH BERBER SUBGROUP ? LOOOOOOL
Add he is from the North African COAST!!!
A region where a lot of invasions have taken place!
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
From: Procopius, History of the Wars, 7 vols., trans. H. B. Dewing (Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard University Press & Wm. Heinemann, 1914; reprint ed., 1953-54), II.23-73.
Scanned by: J. S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton. Prof. Arkenberg has modernized the text. In 406 the Vandals advanced from Pannonia by way of Gaul, which they devastated terribly, into Spain, where they settled in 411. From 427 their king was Genseric (Gaiseric), who in 429 landed in North Africa with about 80,000 of his followers.
In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.
During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
At present, they are restricted to some isolates in the south who maintain the Berber language and to some populations in the north who lack an origin language.
Many genetic studies on Tunisian Berber populations demonstrate the heterogeneity of Berbers with respect to European and sub-Saharan African contributions and the mosaic structure of Tunisian Berber populations with an absence of ethnic, linguistic, and geographic effects (Cherni et al. 2010).
Pottery
I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
So in conclusion , to suggest that the Vandals didn't reach the Atlas mountains of Morocco and considering this as impossible or as plausible is highly impeccable. Considering the fact that these groups moved into the mountains to remain secure, this is very well known, at the time of the Arab conquest. It was only 130 years later that the Arabs came in. The Vandals came in the 6th century the Arabs in the 7th. The root of these Germanic Vandal people is eventually at North Europe. There is where they can be traced back to. It also shows how the regions was already destabilized. This also explains the already indigenous Moroccan dark brown complected vs the enslaved Africans from the south into Morocco. Actually facilitated by the Byzantines, Vandal types.
Claiming there is was no trace of them any longer only after 130 years, is simply ridiculous. Knowing that they moved in 80.000 strong. Whiles have stayed there for 3 centuries, until the Arabs came in. Did they all disappear, all of a sudden???
*Also, one should take inconsideration the many converts to Islam by groups such as the Iberians, likely the descendants of the Vandals and others who came into North Africa over time remain there till this day.
Thus I propose; before the invasion by Islam as Moors, into South Europe, we should understand that North Africa was already invaded many times by groups from Europe, shifting the populations demographic and ethnographic physical appearance. Autosomal is evident of the many admixtures within several Berber tribes. Recorded history backs this up. So indeed the admixture makes it very complicated. Saying one berber is fake and the other is not is a bit off the radar. However, they are indigenous to Africa.
* The Northern part of the Atlas area is close to the Mediterranean sea, before one enters the rest of Morocco one needs to enter there first, known as the RIF. Everyone knowledgeable of history knows that the Vandals entered there. There is no discussion about that.
[IMG]http://tinyurl.com/c99m7bk [/IMG]
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
No Mike.
The average Berber is only 8% Negroid and 92% Caucasoid. In certain regions, the Negroid admixture is far less. I do not consider anything below 10% admixture particularly significant, it doesn't much show in the phenotype. Berbers are predominantly Caucasoid, and largely descend from Palaeolithic North Africans...
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 62 - Issue 06 - November 1998
From Table 4, page 545
Caucasoid Sequences
Portugal 97% Moroccan Berbers 96%
Moroccan Berbers are only 4% Negroid on average, nearly the same as the southern Portugese who are 2.7 - 3% Negroid through the recent slave trade.
So Moroccan Berbers are as White/Caucasoid as the Portugese.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: No Mike.
The average Berber is only 8% Negroid and 92% Caucasoid. In certain regions, the Negroid admixture is far less. I do not consider anything below 10% admixture particularly significant, it doesn't much show in the phenotype. Berbers are predominantly Caucasoid, and largely descend from Palaeolithic North Africans...
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 62 - Issue 06 - November 1998
From Table 4, page 545
Caucasoid Sequences
Portugal 97% Moroccan Berbers 96%
Moroccan Berbers are only 4% Negroid on average, nearly the same as the southern Portugese who are 2.7 - 3% Negroid through the recent slave trade.
So Moroccan Berbers are as White/Caucasoid as the Portugese.
IS THIS BOY DUMB OR WHAT????????
YOUR 8% EXAMPLE IS SUB SAHARAN FEMALE!! GO FIGURE, YOU DUMMY!
PAPA = PATERNAL Y-DNA IS EAST AFRICAN GENETIC DRIFT!!! (BLACK AFRICAN DUDES)
African female heritage in Iberia: a reassessment of mtDNA lineage distribution in present times.
Although for haplogroup U6 the documented event that is demographically compatible is the Islamic period (beginning of the 8th century to the end of the 15th century),
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
Hum Biol. 2005 Apr;77(2):213-29.
Pereira L, et al
African female heritage in Iberia: a reassessment of mtDNA lineage distribution in present times.
Although for haplogroup U6 the documented event that is demographically compatible is the Islamic period (beginning of the 8th century to the end of the 15th century),
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
LMFAO, So true man. I mean damn dude, saying the Taureg are white is like saying the Irish are Chinese or the Anglo Saxons are blacks. The Taureg have never been associated with Whites going back to the Greco-Roman eta their ancestors were classified with Africans and said to resemble folks from Northern Sudan.
Then we have all the info from the Islamic period where the Tauregs are all classified as belonging to Ham, Blacks, etc. We even have the words from the Tauregs themselves when they controlled Timbucktu, and had scholars there.
So I find it quite funny that White people are up in here trying to claim the Taureg...LMFAO. Then you notice that these same people claiming the Tauregs are the same folks talking about how Africans live in "Mud Huts" etc, when alot of the Mud Architecture in places like Mali etc. is influenced by the Tauregs and other Saharan Berbers.
If Lioness or Cassite had taken their white Asses to the Saharah prior to colonialism, they'd gotten their heads chopped off or been enslaved..Only to die of Sun Cancer...lol..Ive heard stories about the Dangers white people faced often passing off as Turks and Arabs for their safety.
Like I said we already know what the Noble Tauregs look like. The Leuko-Derm Tauregs are hardly ever Nobles. Even the Intermediate Tauregs resemble blacks, so its just funny to sit back and watch folks who claim to be proud of their white heritage scramble to claim a Bunch of black and Dark skinned Nomadic Africans..lol
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks, no matter what they call themselves. Same with the Amharas, Tebu, Sudanese, Fallahin etc who make the same claims.
Heck their The Ancestors of the Taureg, the Garamantes, were compared to Africans living in Modern Day Northern Sudan, probably the Beja clans who still today live in places like Aswan etc.
The closest relatives to the Taureg are the Beja another African people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] although many Tuaregs are dark mixed looking people, in Mali they often refer to themselves as "whites" see the film I have up, the other thread. I am not saying they are "white" as per American definitions I am reporting what they call themselves.
Look at the matrilinial genetic studies of Ottoni, the significant admixture is clear why are people arguing this?
>hardcore Salafists who want to impose sharia
Man, the Europeans will still some ish, wont they? Liked Egypt, they stole that, like science, stole that from Africa. Liked history of the diaspora, stole and marginalized that as well. Your not careful, if you post to much good information on these boards, they might still you too. [/QUOTE]
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Some Noble Tauregs and Moorish Elite in Mauritania(Descendants of the Sanhadja and Invader Arab Lueko-Derms)
Beautiful Moorish Bidane Singer...
Aziza brahim
Bautiful Mauritanian Moorish Woman and Singer
Dimi Mint Abba(R.I.P)
More Bidanes and Mauritanians
Golly-Gee where are all the White People at??
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
More Mauritanians..
Adrar region..(these people are Tauregs I believe)
Oudane
Northern Mauritania
Coastal Mauritania
Adrar region
One of the men above is named "Keith" the other is a Taureg named Mohammed...Wonder who the Mauritanian/Taureg is and I wonder who "Keith" is..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Taureg from Mauritania(Adrar Region)
Taureg Berber Girl from Ghadames Lybia
Noble Taureg..
Taureg Woman Ghadamis Lybia
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
quote:PAPA = PATERNAL Y-DNA IS EAST AFRIAN GENETIC DRIFT!!!
MOMA = MATERNAL mt-DNA IS PREDOMINANTLY EURASIAN!!!!
The E/E1b1b1 subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), known as the ''Berber marker''.
E1b1b1b (E-M81) originated in north africa 5,600 years ago, the parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.
These are Caucasoid markers.
European countries with the highest frequency of E are:
Albania 27% Cyprus 20% Greece 27% Macedonia 23% Serbia 20%
So 1/4 of most southern Europe is E, from the Neolithic agriculturalists. According Cruciani et al, 2007, E carriers to the Balkans settled between 4000 and 4700 year ago.
These Neolithic agricultiralists we know were Caucasoid.
If E was carried by Negroids, why Greeks, Serbs etc look WHITE? There is nothing mixed race about them, despite 1/4 or more being E.
Please do explain...
Serbians:
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:PAPA = PATERNAL Y-DNA IS EAST AFRIAN GENETIC DRIFT!!!
MOMA = MATERNAL mt-DNA IS PREDOMINANTLY EURASIAN!!!!
The E/E1b1b1 subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), known as the ''Berber marker''.
E1b1b1b (E-M81) originated in north africa 5,600 years ago, the parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.
These are Caucasoid markers.
European countries with the highest frequency of E are:
Albania 27% Cyprus 20% Greece 27% Macedonia 23% Serbia 20%
So 1/4 of most southern Europe is E, from the Neolithic agriculturalists. According Cruciani et al, 2007, E carriers to the Balkans settled between 4000 and 4700 year ago.
These Neolithic agricultiralists we know were Caucasoid.
If E was carried by Negroids, why Greeks, Serbs etc look WHITE? There is nothing mixed race about them, despite 1/4 or more being E.
Please do explain...
Serbians:
THIS is getting HILARIOUS!!!!
E-M81 is a MARKER GENETIC DRIFT FROM EAST AFRICAN BLACK MEN. (meaning they moved from one place to another, so the original marker mutated!)
You yourself are now ADMITTING IT'S MAX 6.000 old.
E1b1b1b (E-M81) originated in north africa 5,600 years ago, the parent clade E1b1b originated in East Africa.
In the MEANWHILE THE TUAREG MARKER IS OLDER BY THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!!
Europeans mostly carry E-V13 which is another marker and genetic drift. I have posted tis info one or two pages back!
"The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively)."
"Trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky)"
"A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe, which is also detected by haplogroup J-M12. "
"The Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup, suggesting either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup. Both E-V13, which is believed to originate in western Asia with its low frequency in North Africa, and E-V65 of North African origin (Cruciani et al., 2007), were not found among Sudanese."
Subtyping of Y-chromosomal haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a) by SNP
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
E1b1b1a, subhaplogrouping for population-of-origin prediction, the distribution of E-M78 and its derived variants was determined in an Italian population sample (n = 326).
—PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a*[as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period. At this time, it was likely the M78 derivative that came about ~ between 19 and 15 ky ago. It was also likely during this period, that some E3b-M35 variants spilled over to the "southwest Asia", which would be identified as E-M34. The E-M78* likely arose somewhere in the bidirectional-migration route between Northeast and sub-Saharan East Africa; this location was likely in the region straddling upper Egypt and Sudan of the eastern Sahara, amongst earlier E-M35 migrants from sub-Saharan East Africa. These M78 bearers were increasingly pressured to move further south due to progressive aridity, possibly as far as Uganda-Kenya and/or Tanzanian general region.
IT ALL CAME FROM N*GGER BLOOD!!
Posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on :
^ Neolithic East African's were not 'Black', they were Caucasoid. They looked like me...
And you failed to answer of course.
If E and its subclades was taken into Europe by these mythical ''black men'' and there was mass fucking with white woman (a sick fantasy of all black men) why are modern Europeans White? Why aren't we looking mixed race with afro's? After all, E is 1/4 or more of the genetic makeup of southern europeans.
So southern euro's are magically 1/4 or more black but look 100% white? lol.
Simple observation debunks your sick fantasy.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You don't know much about Africans or Africa. The Taureg are black and have been seen as such for time-memorial. Its just a recent fad of the Europeans to make the Tauregs "Whites". The Tauregs are blacks,
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Toureg are black people they have always been black. They enslaved Africans as well as Europeans (which is why some of them are white now
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
They are intermediate.
Making up a multiethnic group of people. And also multi-diverse. The name Berber is simply a CLUSTER WORD for many tribes.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
They are called "MULATTOES"!
.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ Neolithic East African's were not 'Black', they were Caucasoid. They looked like me...
And you failed to answer of course.
If E and its subclades was taken into Europe by these mythical ''black men'' and there was mass fucking with white woman (a sick fantasy of all black men) why are modern Europeans White? Why aren't we looking mixed race with afro's? After all, E is 1/4 or more of the genetic makeup of southern europeans.
So southern euro's are magically 1/4 or more black but look 100% white? lol.
Simple observation debunks your sick fantasy.
YOU ARE TRULLY A PISS POT!!!
Open up I need to pie.
What happened to your brown complected Med types? LOL
I win you loose!
I am done, you can close again!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
= Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: [QB] ^ Neolithic East African's were not 'Black', they were Caucasoid. They looked like me...
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I am done, you can close again! [/QB]
None in your photos are remotely European. The top one is Roma. Their ethinic origins are in India...
You basically completely failed in responding on topic, a clear admission of defeat.
You cling to a perverse fantasy which has no basis in fact.
The highest E carriers (20 - 30%) are Greeks, Macedonians and Serbians. So most southern euros are 1/4 or approaching a 1/3 E, as mostly introduced by Neolithic agriculturalists.
If the original E carriers to Europe were ''black men'' as you claim, then modern southern europeans should appear heavily Negroid (up to 1/3) in phenotype. However they don't...
Serbians (some typical Serbian models) -
Do these look black admixed?
Face it, you have lost. Common sense debunks your bullshit. If the e carriers into europe were ''black men'' then modern europeans where e appears the highest (southern europe) should looked mixed race. Yet they don't.
Those neolithic e carrier men who made babies with the indigenous white european females, were still WHITE. If they had been black men, then modern europeans such as the Serbs who are heavily genetically e should not look like the above.
All you have is a sick fantasy which has no basis in fact. You are dismissed.
Posted by JMT2 (Member # 16951) on :
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.
E3b originated in East Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001).
E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).
E3B originated in northern East Africa, and is mostly affiliated with North African and Middle-Eastern Caucasoid populations.
It was taken into Southern Europe by a wave of neolithic farmers.
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sabaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Paragroup E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E*, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I am done, you can close again!
None in your photos are remotely European. The top one is Roma. Their ethinic origins are in India...
You basically completely failed in responding on topic, a clear admission of defeat.
You cling to a perverse fantasy which has no basis in fact.
The highest E carriers (20 - 30%) are Greeks, Macedonians and Serbians. So most southern euros are 1/4 or approaching a 1/3 E, as mostly introduced by Neolithic agriculturalists.
If the original E carriers to Europe were ''black men'' as you claim, then modern southern europeans should appear heavily Negroid (up to 1/3) in phenotype. However they don't...
Serbians (some typical Serbian models) -
Do these look black admixed?
Face it, you have lost. Common sense debunks your bullshit. If the e carriers into europe were ''black men'' then modern europeans where e appears the highest (southern europe) should looked mixed race. Yet they don't.
Those neolithic e carrier men who made babies with the indigenous white european females, were still WHITE. If they had been black men, then modern europeans such as the Serbs who are heavily genetically e should not look like the above.
All you have is a sick fantasy which has no basis in fact. You are dismissed. [/QB]
First of all you have no common sense, you don't posses that ability, you can show who ever you like. Even depigmented types. Cool!
Second, I did not show any European in my previous post. It said Roma, because athletic games were held in Rome, Italy. So there you have it. Again you subconsciously admitted. Or should I say: submitted. LOL
Third, what happened to your Brown Meds?
Fourth, South-East Europeans carry Hg E-V13 a downstream and genetic drift, off. (A different mutation in a different region, giving different appearances). With different Hg mixture and a different composition.
Northwest Africans carry E-M81, paternal, as you can see below.
Up till about 50 years ago, the Tuareg did not see themselves as a unified people, they saw themselves as different families, tribes and clans – nomads from different parts of the desert who often fought against each other.
On a normal day when the conflict is in abeyance, how are relations between Malians and Tuaregs? They normally get on pretty well. Until recently, there were a lot of Tuaregs living in Bamako, the capital. They worked in the Malian administration in various jobs, working for NGOs, government bodies, teaching in the universities. That kind of social mixing was happening in other cities like Segou, Mopti, Timbuktu and Gao as well. But there is a historic enmity as well. Malians sometimes think that the Tuareg are fundamentally racist and possess this ‘slave owner’ mentality. Tuaregs often think that black southerners are racist towards them, calling them the ‘Red Skins’ and other pejorative names. So there is some social tension between them. Having said that, I think that many Tuaregs had made their peace with the idea that they were a part of Mali and that they were just going to have to get on with living in Mali.
Mali’s Tuareg Rebellion By Andy Morgan, March 27, 2012
This interview with Andy Morgan offers a detailed and fascinating look at the background to the Tuareg conflict in Mali. Tracing the unrest back over 50 years, he looks at the outside influences of Muammar Gaddafi, local Al Qaeda groups, Algeria and Mauritania. Could you give us the general picture of what is going on in Mali at the moment? The Tuaregs have been fighting an insurgency against the central power in Mali since the late 1950s but in terms of open fighting, since 1963. So this is a very old story. What we are seeing is the latest chapter, but a chapter with a great many differences. The Tuaregs this time are better equipped, better trained and better led than they ever have been before and as a result they have been able to clinch a series of military victories which have given them control of the northern half of Mali – bar the big cities, such as Timbuktu and Gao, which they haven’t attacked yet although I suspect now with all the confusion that is going on in Bamako they might take their chances in the next 48 hours and do just that.
This time people are referring to a Libyan knock-on effect, with Tuaregs returning from Libya, having fought with Gaddafi, now heavily armed and with a lot of money to spend. Is this a true picture? The answer is both yes and no. The relationship between Gaddafi and the Tuaregs goes back to the 1970s, when Gaddafi had a romantic vision of the Tuaregs as superlative warriors. Gaddafi himself, as everyone knows, had a vision of himself as a liberator of oppressed peoples throughout the world. He took it upon himself to bring the Tuaregs into his fold and he trained them up to be soldiers. This happened particularly in the 1980s. The relationship between them at that time was always very ambiguous, as on the one hand he said that he wanted to help the Tuareg people to win back their homeland, but on the other hand he seemed to do precious little to help make that happen in concrete terms – apart from giving a bunch of young Tuareg men some military training in Libya, who he then sent to fight wars in Chad and Lebanon but not back home in Mali or Niger. They have always had a complex relationship, which I like to compare to the Irish Republican movement and the USA. Libya was a source for money and support but no actual encouragement to reach their goals.
How did the Tuaregs end up working in Libya? The reason why a lot of Tuaregs ended up in Libya is that it is a very oil-rich nation which had a lack of manpower. Not only Tuaregs, but many sub-Saharan Africans ended up working in Libya. Some of those Tuaregs were actually a part of the Libyan army. The Malian press have accused the MNLA (National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad) of being Libyan mercenaries but in reality they weren’t mercenaries but actually regular members of the Libyan army and had been for 20 years. For example the leader of the MNLA, Mohamed Ag Najm, was a colonel in the Libyan army. The story goes, and I need to check some of this but, it appears that there was a very well known Tuareg rebel/freedom fighter/bandit depending on your point of view called Ibrahim Ag Bahanga who was a real thorn in the side of the Malian authorities from 2006 onwards until he was defeated militarily in 2008 and exiled to Libya. There, he started to make connections with all these Tuareg officers in the Libyan army, many of whom were in the same clan and the same tribal group as he was. When the Libyan uprising started in Benghazi and things started to go very wrong for Gaddafi, Ibrahim Ag Bahanga and others persuaded some Tuareg officers in the Libyan army to defect, raid the Libyan army arsenals and take the weaponry back to Mali. I have also heard a rumour, which I have not been able to confirm, that they actually had a meeting with the National Transitional Council, the anti-Gaddafi rebels, to get their blessing for this project.
This seems the perfect way to get them out of the way Yes, exactly, and weaken Gaddafi’s army. So this is what they did, and throughout the autumn and summer of 2011, they were ferrying arms back into Mali. During one of these trips, Ibrahim Ag Bahanga was killed, some people say in a car accident, although he had so many enemies that it seems incredible that he could have died in a mere car accident. So what you have is a group of very experienced Libyan Tuareg soldiers, who had been trained and employed in Libya, now in the north-east of Mali with a great deal of weaponry. From about October 2011 onwards, they basically started preparing the uprising, with long meetings out in the desert where they indulged in a great deal of soul searching about what had gone wrong in previous uprisings, so as to get it right this time. What happened is that they entered into an alliance with a much younger group of Tuaregs, you might say young intellectuals, very Internet savvy young Tuaregs, who set up the National Movement of Azawad, the MNA at the end of 2010. They eventually merged with the MNLA. This was an important move as one of the aspects that was deemed to be lacking in previous uprisings was good communications with the international media, and with the world at large. This alliance, this youth wing, if we can call it that, has been very active on the Internet since the uprising started, posting opinions, press releases and denunciations. This is a completely new development, which has led to there being a propaganda war between Mali and the MNLA, alongside the actual military operations.
When we talk about Tuaregs we are talking about many different tribes, spread over different countries. Some say the MNLA is just a small group of a few thousand fighters. What sort of support does the MNLA have from Tuaregs as a whole? There are roughly 1.5 million Tuaregs, although an accurate census does not exist. They are spread out over 5 countries: Mali, Algeria, Libya, Niger and Burkina Faso. They have a very complex clan and tribal structure, at the top of which you have 5 large confederations which are then broken down into tribes, then clans and families etc. It’s very complex. They don’t all see eye-to-eye and historically they have fought against each other, sometimes very bitterly. The idea of a Tuareg identity is a relatively recent phenomenon. Up till about 50 years ago, they did not see themselves as a unified people, they saw themselves as different families, tribes and clans – nomads from different parts of the desert who often fought against each other. So who are the MNLA? The MNLA are basically led by Tuaregs from the north-east of Mali, especially by two particular clans, called the Iforas and Idnan. The Iforas are the traditional rulers of north-eastern Mali. The Idnan are also a traditional warrior clan, bearing in mind that their society is very hierarchical and each clan had its different role. All of these old structures have been modified and deconstructed over the last one hundred years, but basically these two groups, the Iforas and the Idnan, are very much at the head of the MNLA. Support for the MNLA amongst Tuaregs is quite broad, partly as a result of the MNA’s propaganda and certainly before this latest conflict happened, I got the feeling from talking to various friends, that a lot of Tuaregs felt that at last they had a rebel organisation that was worthy of their cause. However they do not represent all Tuaregs by any means, and even less, all the people living in the north of Mali, where there are quite a number of different ethnicities apart from the Tuareg, including Arabs, Songhai and Peulh. All I can say is that it’s been along time since a rebel movement has enjoyed the level of support that the MNLA have, but this support is by no means universal.
Is there any internal opposition? There is one group that is seemingly opposed to the MNLA and they are called the Inghad. They are the former subordinate or ‘vassal’ class in the old hierarchical structure, subordinate to the more noble Idnan and Iforas Tuaregs. Many of the Inghad were in favour of the Tuareg lands becoming part of the Republic of Mali, as the socialist principles upon which the Malian Republic was built meant that they were freed from their subservient status in Tuareg society. One of the most frequently touted names in this conflict is a Tuareg military commander called Colonel al-Hajj Gamou. He has been the Malian army’s champion in the north-east for quite a number of years and he is an Inghad, from one of these vassal tribes. Ag Gamou has been built up as the defender of the Malian cause in the north. Apart from the Libyan Tuareg presence in the MNLA, there have also been a lot of desertions to the MNLA from the Malian army since December, as the Malian army did comprise a large number of Tuaregs. The actual number of people in the MNLA is difficult to gauge but I am sure that the numbers are growing. What are AQIM’s relations with the Tuaregs? Before this rebellion, the supreme leader of the Tuareg rebel movement was Iyad Ag Ghali, who is an Iforas Tuareg.
He led the rebellion in the early 1990s and was also involved in the 2006 rebellion. But he got religion in the late 1990s, thanks to Pakistani preachers who started visiting northern Mali with the aim of converting the Tuareg to the Salafist fundamentalist view of Islam. In most cases they were unsuccessful, but they did manage to convert Ag Ghali who has, apparently, over the last 10 years, become increasingly extremist. In the run up to this uprising, he went to see the MNLA and offered to be their leader, as he had been in the past, but this time his candidature was rejected. The MNLA have made it absolutely clear on many occasions that they are a secular and democratic revolutionary movement, with the emphasis on secular. Iyad was also apparently rejected as leader of the Iforas clan too. The Iforas are still being led by a very ancient man called Intala Ag Attaher, so despite an imminent succession crisis in the clan, he was turned down as the amenokal, as they call a leader in the Tuareg language. He declared that he wanted to bring shariah law to the Tuareg homelands and most Tuaregs do not want shariah. The role of women is relatively prominent, free and strong in Tuareg society. Tuareg society is not profligate or hedonistic, but it is religiously tolerant and people are free to express their own minds. It is a matriarchal society and very different from Saudi Arabian society, for example.
Was that the end of Iyad Ag Ghali? No, he went on to form a movement called Ansar Al Din, which means the “followers of the faithful”. There are reports that he got together a group of like-minded Tuaregs with similar tribal allegiances and they, it is said, are fighting alongside the MNLA as a semi-autonomous wing of the rebel movement. They were apparently very present in the Aguel’hoc and Tessalit battles. The problem is that their presence has allowed Mali to construct the theory that the MNLA are in cahoots with Al Qaeda. There is also the fact that the Tuareg, probably for monetary reasons, have done odd jobs, a bit of kidnapping, a bit of supplying, guiding and driving for Al Qaeda. It is important to understand that when Al Qaeda arrived in the area in 2007/2008, they destroyed the tourist industry, destroyed the NGO industry and destroyed any kind of outside involvement in the area, which catapulted it into a state of economic crisis. So if someone comes along and says: “I’ll give you $500 to drive this van” or whatever, you can imagine that the temptation is extraordinary.
Is unemployment a big issue in this conflict? What is the social background? The social context is that the north-east of Mali has been more or less forgotten in terms of the general development of the country. The first uprising was in 1963 and for the next 20 years, right up until the next uprising in the 1990s, the area was completely marginalized – it was a no-go area, you couldn’t even visit it. It was basically a military occupied zone. Then in 1991 there was a revolution of sorts in Mali and the dictator Moussa Traoré was thrown out. What is ironic is that the current President Touré came to power in that military coup in 1991 which came off the back of a Tuareg uprising. Since then there have been attempts to develop the north. Rather large sums of money have been thrown at the north, some of which, it has to be said, have been embezzled by unscrupulous Tuareg leaders. However what really angered many of the Tuaregs was that a large chunk of the fund called the PSPDN was being used to build military barracks, and to remilitarize the north. That is one of the reasons why the fighting broke out on 17 January this year. This made them feel it was either now or never, otherwise the military presence was going to become too well-established.
On a normal day when the conflict is in abeyance, how are relations between Malians and Tuaregs? They normally get on pretty well. Until recently, there were a lot of Tuaregs living in Bamako, the capital. They worked in the Malian administration in various jobs, working for NGOs, government bodies, teaching in the universities. That kind of social mixing was happening in other cities like Segou, Mopti, Timbuktu and Gao as well. But there is a historic enmity as well. Malians sometimes think that the Tuareg are fundamentally racist and possess this ‘slave owner’ mentality. Tuaregs often think that black southerners are racist towards them, calling them the ‘Red Skins’ and other pejorative names. So there is some social tension between them. Having said that, I think that many Tuaregs had made their peace with the idea that they were a part of Mali and that they were just going to have to get on with living in Mali.
And what about the neighbours, like Mauritania? Mali has accused Mauritania of actually interfering in Malian affairs by supporting the Tuareg. Is there any truth in these accusations? If you read the Malian press there are constant accusations against various outside entities and countries, such as Mauritania. That particular accusation is based on the fact that the MNLA’s political wing has basically set up shop in Nouakchott, the capital of Mauritania. So the political leaders are based there and there is a suspicion in Mali that there have been high level governmental links between Mauritania and the MNLA. The official statements from the Mauritanian President all say that Mauritania respects Malian territorial integrity and that conflicts must be resolved by peaceful means. Behind the scenes, who knows? That said, I don’t think any country wants to see an independent Azawad. It is too dangerous. They are also suspicious in Mali regarding Algeria, as Algeria considers north-eastern Mali to be its backyard, its own zone of influence. The Algerians have always manipulated Tuareg politics in that area. They did so especially to counteract the influence of Gaddafi when he was in power. So there was something of a fight between the Algerians and Gaddafi as to who was the real friend of the Tuaregs.
What about oil and gas? Is the area strategic in terms of its mineral resources? Yes, one thing that has been happening in the last 5 years is that northern Mali has been explored, and parcelled off as lots for oil drilling. Those lots have already been sold off – and I should say this is where things get very murky and where some serious investigative journalism needs to be done. Total, the French oil company, were involved in the exploration, as were the Qatar Petroleum Company. As we know, both Qatar and France were heavily involved in the overthrow of Gaddafi and many Malian commentators see a conspiracy theory in which France (remembering that France and the Tuaregs did try and set up a Tuareg state back in the ’50s prior to Malian independence which was quashed by the FLN in Algeria and the leaders of independent Mali) have always rued the fact that they lost all their colonies and access to the rich minerals in northern Mali. So many Malians see the Tuareg rebellion as being engineered by the French. In general, the Sahara is very fertile ground for conspiracy theories as it’s so hard to verify anything that goes on there. Even people who know a lot about Al Qaeda are convinced that Al Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb is a creation of the Algerian secret services. Others are convinced they were invited into northern Mali by the Malian government itself in order to be able to delegitimize any Tuareg insurgency. The Sahara plays on the mind. There are also rumours about drug trafficking and that the Malian government and army have had a role in that. Tuaregs too. The whole area is a dream for authors of crime and conspiracy novels.
If the situation deteriorates in Mali surely the French will not sit back and watch it happen? It is difficult to say, it depends what links they have with these young soldiers involved in the coup. It is not clear if the French have any control over them. I am inclined to think the French will try and re-install President Touré – presenting themselves as the defenders of democracy – and bring things back to the way they were. The French are also terrified of the Islamic threat. They have already lived through their Algerian experience so this is nothing new to them, but they will not want Mali to become an Islamic state. One thing that is not talked about very much is the creeping influence of Salafist fundamentalist ideology in southern Mali. This has been happening over the last three years. But as for the big picture, we will have to wait and see how this coup plays out.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
President Amadou Toumani Toure of Mali has formally resigned as part of a deal with coup leaders to end the crisis gripping the West African state.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Posted on Thursday 12 April 2012 - 10:20 AfricaNews Monitoring Team with files from BBC Mali's Dioncounda Traore was sworn in as interim president of the West African country on Thursday after leaders of a March 22 coup agreed to hand back power to civilians. Traore, previously the speaker of the national parliament, was sworn in by Supreme Court President Nouhoum Tapily at a brief ceremony in the capital Bamako.
ECOWAS lifts sanction on Mali Posted on Wednesday 11 April 2012 - 11:56 Buya Jammeh, AfricaNews reporter in Dakar, Senegal The Economic Community of West African States has lifted sanctions against Mali, saying it is convinced the leaders of a military coup are committed to restoring constitutional rule. ECOWAS communications director Sonny Ugoh said the military's efforts have been 'sufficiently strong,' but that the international community stands ready to 'react appropriately' if the deal breaks down. “We want to believe that the military junta can be trusted, and on that basis we have lifted the sanctions. And it would be dangerous for them to renege on their commitment to ECOWAS because I can't possibly see how a member state can live in isolation of its neighbours that's not possible, particularly against the background of the political, the economic and the financial sanctions,” he stated.
Malian President Amadou Toumani Toure submitted his resignation Sunday, weeks after being toppled by the coup. He said he stepped down without pressure and out of love for the country. The former Malian leader is said to be in exile in Dakar, Senegal.
“I think the decision taken by ECOWAS and the international community is the best. It's necessary that Mali continues in the provisions of its constitution of February 1992. As a consequence, I think it's normal and I do it without any pressure at all and I do it in good faith and most of all for the love I have for this country.”
Under a deal reached Friday, former Malian speaker of parliament Dioncounda Traore will serve as president with a transitional government until elections are held. Mr Traore is expected to be sworn in as caretaker president this week.
ECOWAS pledged to help Mali fight the Tuareg rebels who have seized much of the country's north and proclaimed an independent state there following the military coup.
The coup leaders who justified their takeover by denouncing what they said was the former government's ineffectual campaign to suppress the Tuareg rebellion. The junta further rejected the intervention of foreign troops in the rebel-held north - and hinted at his continuing role in ruling the country.
A U.S. State Department spokeswoman said the United States commends the leadership of ECOWAS for brokering the agreement with the junta leaders and fully restoring civilian rule. She said the United States will watch in the coming days to see if enough progress has been made to restore aid.
The U.S. State Department evacuated all Peace Corps volunteers Sunday and offered all non-essential diplomatic personnel flights out of the country. U.S. officials say the situation in Mali remains fluid and unpredictable. It also says there is a threat of kidnappings and attacks against Westerners in the north.
Mali's neighbours all criticized both the military coup and the new “Azawad” state declared by the northern rebels, who got help from the radical Islamist group Ansar Dine.
The self-styled National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad controls the cities of Timbuktu, Gao and other areas in the north. It declared its independence Friday and said its military campaign is over. The heavily armed Tuaregs, formerly based in Moammar Gadhafi's Libya, began fighting in northern Mali in January.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
The root of this conflict is at the Scramble For Africa, just like all the other ethnic conflicts. When Europeans split up traditional African territories into modernday territories.
The Scramble for Africa: Berlin Conference of 1884-1885 to Divide Africa
Tuaregs deserve an independent state with a self ruling goverment.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ The retard above hasn't yet realised race is far more than about mere skin pigmentation.
The Tuareg in craniometric analyses cluster with Caucasoids, they are predominantly leptorrhine-mesorrhine, and orthognathic. Their hair texture is also Caucasoid, not nappy haired like Negroids.
Says who? A Euronut's website? Elongated hamites and other Watusi-related people don't cluster with YOU! Just remember what Ricaut and Waelkens said.
I like to see that paper of what he claims, for myself. If trully so, they probably took some heave admixed Saqaliba or Mamluk descents, or even on of those colonialist descendants from Spain, Portugal or Turkey, in Libya.
You know how these extreme racist work. Trying to show the world their miraculous history. Now claiming Tuaregs are caucasiods. lol
I like to see how a bunch of white women managed to go by foot from extreme cold Europe all the way to Sahara and Sahel Africa. And mix with the indigenous populations.
The Sahel-Sahara region is at least the size of Europe. lol
The landmass Tuaregs cover is at least as large as the entire of South Europe.
Even funnier it get's when you break it down. And see how they claim they have spread into the belt from East to West, from Northeast all the way up to the Sahel. And mixed with everybody their. A landmass as large as Europe itself. Yet, there is no memory of such event by the people. lol
Or another analogy,
The Sahara desert covers around 9,000,000 square kilometers and the overall area is as large as the continental United States. The Sahara desert also has the reputation of being the world's largest hot desert!
This hot desert has annual temperatures that can exceed 30 degrees C. Some of the hottest months have temperatures exceeding 50 degrees C. In the winters, the temperatures drop below freezing points. This itself explains the diverse climates of this hot desert.
No these Euronuts are talking about the hamitic i.e. Eurafrican theory in which black people with long heads and narrow noses that have lived in the Capsian and East African Capsian were somehow more related to Europeans than other blacks in Africans.
Even more of an irony is the fact tha most people living on the coast of north Africa today are not dolichocranic like the Tuareg and the many east Africans or even Sahelians. They are much like their Eurasiatic and NORDIC kinsmen mesocranic peoples which leaves out the possibility which in itself leaves out the plausible that they are connected with ancient Mechtoids and Capsians. WHICH THEY JUST DON'T GET!
They want to make North Africans into something they are not which is pure descendants of ancient Bronze Age or neolithic peoples of North Africa. Like I said if you can not even find a Berber tribe that is referred to as fair complexioned in the Maghreb in the 15th century how is one going to pretend they existed back in the period of the Capsians.
The Egyptian paintings also DO NOT depict any fair-skinned people in Libya really until the Intermediate period and even that is arguable since the paint is coming off a lot of them.
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
Mali: UNESCO chief appeals for protection of Timbuktu’s documentary heritage
16 April 2012 – Reports that rebels have over-run and looted centres containing thousands of ancient books and documents in Mali’s historic city of Timbuktu has led the head of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) to appeal to all relevant authorities to be on the alert against any attempt to traffic items stolen from these centres.
“This heritage must be protected,” Director-General Irina Bokova stressed in a press release issued yesterday in Paris, calling for “concerted action,” including from Mali’s warring factions, neighbouring governments, Interpol, customs organizations, the art market and collectors.
“The citizens of Timbuktu have rallied to protect these ancient documents but they need our help,” she added.
Timbuktu’s centres contain ancient documents dating back to the city’s period of glory between the 12th and 15th centuries that bear witness to the rich history of the city as a cultural crossroads and centre of learning. They cover a vast range of subjects, including religious studies, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, music, literature and poetry.
Ms. Bokova has contacted national authorities in countries bordering Mali to remind them of their obligations under the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. Mali is also bound by the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.
A World Heritage site since 1988, Timbuktu was taken over by rebels on 1 April following their swift progression in the northern part of Mali. Fighting between Government troops and Tuareg rebels that resumed in January has forced tens of thousands of people to leave their homes.
Earlier this month, Ms. Bokova had stressed that the Timbuktu site, along with its 16 cemeteries and mausolea, are “essential to the preservation of the identity of the people of Mali and of our universal heritage.”
quote:Originally posted by Omo Baba: Mali: UNESCO chief appeals for protection of Timbuktu’s documentary heritage
16 April 2012 – Reports that rebels have over-run and looted centres containing thousands of ancient books and documents in Mali’s historic city of Timbuktu has led the head of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) to appeal to all relevant authorities to be on the alert against any attempt to traffic items stolen from these centres.
“This heritage must be protected,” Director-General Irina Bokova stressed in a press release issued yesterday in Paris, calling for “concerted action,” including from Mali’s warring factions, neighbouring governments, Interpol, customs organizations, the art market and collectors.
“The citizens of Timbuktu have rallied to protect these ancient documents but they need our help,” she added.
Timbuktu’s centres contain ancient documents dating back to the city’s period of glory between the 12th and 15th centuries that bear witness to the rich history of the city as a cultural crossroads and centre of learning. They cover a vast range of subjects, including religious studies, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, music, literature and poetry.
Ms. Bokova has contacted national authorities in countries bordering Mali to remind them of their obligations under the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. Mali is also bound by the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.
A World Heritage site since 1988, Timbuktu was taken over by rebels on 1 April following their swift progression in the northern part of Mali. Fighting between Government troops and Tuareg rebels that resumed in January has forced tens of thousands of people to leave their homes.
Earlier this month, Ms. Bokova had stressed that the Timbuktu site, along with its 16 cemeteries and mausolea, are “essential to the preservation of the identity of the people of Mali and of our universal heritage.”
From what I understand the documents talk a lot about the history and secrets of ancient civilization in general.
It will be beyond pitiful if these texts which were in the process of recovery and restoration are lost.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Omo Baba: Mali: UNESCO chief appeals for protection of Timbuktu’s documentary heritage
16 April 2012 – Reports that rebels have over-run and looted centres containing thousands of ancient books and documents in Mali’s historic city of Timbuktu has led the head of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) to appeal to all relevant authorities to be on the alert against any attempt to traffic items stolen from these centres.
“This heritage must be protected,” Director-General Irina Bokova stressed in a press release issued yesterday in Paris, calling for “concerted action,” including from Mali’s warring factions, neighbouring governments, Interpol, customs organizations, the art market and collectors.
“The citizens of Timbuktu have rallied to protect these ancient documents but they need our help,” she added.
Timbuktu’s centres contain ancient documents dating back to the city’s period of glory between the 12th and 15th centuries that bear witness to the rich history of the city as a cultural crossroads and centre of learning. They cover a vast range of subjects, including religious studies, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, music, literature and poetry.
Ms. Bokova has contacted national authorities in countries bordering Mali to remind them of their obligations under the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. Mali is also bound by the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.
A World Heritage site since 1988, Timbuktu was taken over by rebels on 1 April following their swift progression in the northern part of Mali. Fighting between Government troops and Tuareg rebels that resumed in January has forced tens of thousands of people to leave their homes.
Earlier this month, Ms. Bokova had stressed that the Timbuktu site, along with its 16 cemeteries and mausolea, are “essential to the preservation of the identity of the people of Mali and of our universal heritage.”
From what I understand the documents talk a lot about the history and secrets of ancient civilization in general.
It will be beyond pitiful if these texts which were in the process of recovery and restoration are lost.
Sounds like another multi-pronged attack on African people, history and culture. Soon all of these documents will wind up as part of "Arab" north Africa and the African component will be lost. First they attack the indigenous Black Libyans then they magically by some strange chance wind up in Timbuktu of all places and of course the manuscripts being there were just a coincidence. Look how far Mali is from Libya. If this was a "spill over" from Libya then why isn't anything going on in Niger or Chad which are right next to Libya? I smell a rat, ie. international collusion and desire to loot, aided by local traitors and mercenaries of course....
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Very sad to see African people fighting and killing each others over foreign religions.
Very sad to see African people divided along European/Middle Eastern ethnics and religious lines. Even if its through elitists purpose. Its ridiculous and self-defeating. We must reject those foreign imposed religions and promote the knowledge of our ancestral religions.
Ancestral religions are the foundation of all the great civilization in human history. Like the Ancient Kemet/Egyptian civilization, the great Ancient Greek civilization, Ancient Rome, Chinese Dynasties, Great Zimbabwe, Celtic civilization, Aztec, etc. Abrahamic religions are very intolerant toward other people religions, God, deities and belief. Contrary to all other ancestral religions in the world. Labeling them pagans or idol worshipers. Christianity was imposed on Roman people by Constantine for political purpose only at the very late/End of the Roman period. The foundation of the great Roman Republic and Roman Empire was already laid centuries before. A case can be made that it lead to the downfall of the Roman Empire. Leading Europe to the horrible Middle Ages. Only the rejection of the Christian religion for science has led Europe out of the Middle Ages and currently dominate the "religious" thinking in the Western world. Science and mathematics based on Ancient Kemet and the great Ancient Greek civilization!!
We must decolonize our mind African people! We must liberate our mind African people! Ancestral religion unite every African people and all people in the world!
For Ancestral religions followers (from Shinto religion to Buddhism passing by African traditional religions) it is perfectly normal for each people in the world to have their own knowledge and path toward God through their ancestors.
We must liberate our minds!!
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Omo Baba: Mali: UNESCO chief appeals for protection of Timbuktu’s documentary heritage
16 April 2012 – Reports that rebels have over-run and looted centres containing thousands of ancient books and documents in Mali’s historic city of Timbuktu has led the head of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) to appeal to all relevant authorities to be on the alert against any attempt to traffic items stolen from these centres.
“This heritage must be protected,” Director-General Irina Bokova stressed in a press release issued yesterday in Paris, calling for “concerted action,” including from Mali’s warring factions, neighbouring governments, Interpol, customs organizations, the art market and collectors.
“The citizens of Timbuktu have rallied to protect these ancient documents but they need our help,” she added.
Timbuktu’s centres contain ancient documents dating back to the city’s period of glory between the 12th and 15th centuries that bear witness to the rich history of the city as a cultural crossroads and centre of learning. They cover a vast range of subjects, including religious studies, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, music, literature and poetry.
Ms. Bokova has contacted national authorities in countries bordering Mali to remind them of their obligations under the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. Mali is also bound by the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.
A World Heritage site since 1988, Timbuktu was taken over by rebels on 1 April following their swift progression in the northern part of Mali. Fighting between Government troops and Tuareg rebels that resumed in January has forced tens of thousands of people to leave their homes.
Earlier this month, Ms. Bokova had stressed that the Timbuktu site, along with its 16 cemeteries and mausolea, are “essential to the preservation of the identity of the people of Mali and of our universal heritage.”
From what I understand the documents talk a lot about the history and secrets of ancient civilization in general.
It will be beyond pitiful if these texts which were in the process of recovery and restoration are lost.
Sounds like another multi-pronged attack on African people, history and culture. Soon all of these documents will wind up as part of "Arab" north Africa and the African component will be lost. First they attack the indigenous Black Libyans then they magically by some strange chance wind up in Timbuktu of all places and of course the manuscripts being there were just a coincidence. Look how far Mali is from Libya. If this was a "spill over" from Libya then why isn't anything going on in Niger or Chad which are right next to Libya? I smell a rat, ie. international collusion and desire to loot, aided by local traitors and mercenaries of course....
An article backing up my point:
quote: DJENNE-DJENNO, one of the best-known archaeological sites in sub-Saharan Africa, spreads over several acres of rutted fields near the present city of Djenne in central Mali. The ruts are partly caused by erosion, but they’re also scars from decades of digging, by archaeologists in search of history and looters looking for art to sell.
When I was there last fall, a few archaeology students were in evidence. These days, with Mali in the throes of political chaos, it’s unlikely that anyone is doing much work at all at the site, though history and art are visible everywhere. Ancient pottery shards litter the ground. Here and there the mouths of large clay urns, of a kind once used for food storage or human burial, emerge from the earth’s surface, the vessels themselves still submerged.
Now one thing that is odd is how this site is so famous but hasn't been excavated yet. Why not? Sounds like somebody is covering up something. And of course having a rebellion and turmoil is an easy way to provide cover for looting and hiding history.
ECOWAS countries like Nigeria,Ghana,Senegal, Cameroun need to send their armies in Mali to defeat al qaeda and the tribalist Touareg.The balkanisation of Africa into many tribal state will not work.The Mande and Dogon people of Mali are great people in world history they deserve protection.The Ugandan army by itself defeated the alqaeda bastard of Somali,the Nigerian can do the same in Mali.
Mali ex president the retired general Alpha Oumar Konare was very stupid.He allow the Tuareg mercenary of murdered Libyan pres M Kaddafi to enter Mali with their weapon.In the contrary The president of Niger ask the Tuareg to disarm before entering Niger.The Tuareg mercenary of Kadafi were better arm then the Malian army because the ex Malian pres general A O Konare fail to upgrade is army infantry equipment after 12 years in power.
The Timbuktu ancient libraries need to be protected from the crazy alqaeda terrorist that are destroying tomb.
Yes AmunRa African people need to returned to their ancestral religion of Neterism, Orisha, Voodoo, Gnosticism. The European religion of Judaisme, Christianity and Islam are Euro weapons of mass destruction, conquest, enslavement,control and deception.
Posted by brick (Member # 20331) on :
quote:Originally posted by mena7: ECOWAS countries like Nigeria,Ghana,Senegal, Cameroun need to send their armies in Mali to defeat al qaeda and the tribalist Touareg.The balkanisation of Africa into many tribal state will not work.The Mande and Dogon people of Mali are great people in world history they deserve protection.The Ugandan army by itself defeated the alqaeda bastard of Somali,the Nigerian can do the same in Mali.
Mali ex president the retired general Alpha Oumar Konare was very stupid.He allow the Tuareg mercenary of murdered Libyan pres M Kaddafi to enter Mali with their weapon.In the contrary The president of Niger ask the Tuareg to disarm before entering Niger.The Tuareg mercenary of Kadafi were better arm then the Malian army because the ex Malian pres general A O Konare fail to upgrade is army infantry equipment after 12 years in power.
The Timbuktu ancient libraries need to be protected from the crazy alqaeda terrorist that are destroying tomb.
Yes AmunRa African people need to returned to their ancestral religion of Neterism, Orisha, Voodoo, Gnosticism. The European religion of Judaisme, Christianity and Islam are Euro weapons of mass destruction, conquest, enslavement,control and deception.
I AGREE.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Omo Baba: Mali: UNESCO chief appeals for protection of Timbuktu’s documentary heritage
16 April 2012 – Reports that rebels have over-run and looted centres containing thousands of ancient books and documents in Mali’s historic city of Timbuktu has led the head of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) to appeal to all relevant authorities to be on the alert against any attempt to traffic items stolen from these centres.
“This heritage must be protected,” Director-General Irina Bokova stressed in a press release issued yesterday in Paris, calling for “concerted action,” including from Mali’s warring factions, neighbouring governments, Interpol, customs organizations, the art market and collectors.
“The citizens of Timbuktu have rallied to protect these ancient documents but they need our help,” she added.
Timbuktu’s centres contain ancient documents dating back to the city’s period of glory between the 12th and 15th centuries that bear witness to the rich history of the city as a cultural crossroads and centre of learning. They cover a vast range of subjects, including religious studies, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, music, literature and poetry.
Ms. Bokova has contacted national authorities in countries bordering Mali to remind them of their obligations under the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property. Mali is also bound by the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict.
A World Heritage site since 1988, Timbuktu was taken over by rebels on 1 April following their swift progression in the northern part of Mali. Fighting between Government troops and Tuareg rebels that resumed in January has forced tens of thousands of people to leave their homes.
Earlier this month, Ms. Bokova had stressed that the Timbuktu site, along with its 16 cemeteries and mausolea, are “essential to the preservation of the identity of the people of Mali and of our universal heritage.”
From what I understand the documents talk a lot about the history and secrets of ancient civilization in general.
It will be beyond pitiful if these texts which were in the process of recovery and restoration are lost.
Sounds like another multi-pronged attack on African people, history and culture. Soon all of these documents will wind up as part of "Arab" north Africa and the African component will be lost. First they attack the indigenous Black Libyans then they magically by some strange chance wind up in Timbuktu of all places and of course the manuscripts being there were just a coincidence. Look how far Mali is from Libya. If this was a "spill over" from Libya then why isn't anything going on in Niger or Chad which are right next to Libya? I smell a rat, ie. international collusion and desire to loot, aided by local traitors and mercenaries of course....
An article backing up my point: DJENNE-DJENNO, one of the best-known archaeological sites in sub-Saharan Africa, spreads over several acres of rutted fields near the present city of Djenne in central Mali. The ruts are partly caused by erosion, but they’re also scars from decades of digging, by archaeologists in search of history and looters looking for art to sell.
When I was there last fall, a few archaeology students were in evidence. These days, with Mali in the throes of political chaos, it’s unlikely that anyone is doing much work at all at the site, though history and art are visible everywhere. Ancient pottery shards litter the ground. Here and there the mouths of large clay urns, of a kind once used for food storage or human burial, emerge from the earth’s surface, the vessels themselves still submerged. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/arts/design/african-art-is-under-threat-in-djenne-djenno.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all&fb_source=message
Now one thing that is odd is how this site is so famous but hasn't been excavated yet. Why not? Sounds like somebody is covering up something. And of course having a rebellion and turmoil is an easy way to provide cover for looting and hiding history.
You raise an interesting point as to why the site has not been fully excavated yet. Then again the same can be said about other areas of so-called "Sub-Sahara" that are known to have archaeological sites of great interest. Still I wonder if you're being paranoid. I hear of no one who tries to "hide" African history and antiquity. The best that Euronuts are able to accomplish is white-wash such history, still as for the actual local peoples or the government to cover their own history?? I could see it if maybe they were radical Muslims who don't care about their pre-Islamic history.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
France bombs Mali rebels, African states ready troops.
Im glad French stop Al Qaeda from conquering South Mali with their airforce.Im also dissapointed the African nation of West Africa cant protect their backyard against Al qaeda.Why dont the Nigerian, Camerounian, Ghanaian, Senegalese, Gabonese airforces bombard the Alqaeda terrorrist.Why there is no West African troops on the ground in Mali after a year.Thats a shame that in 2012 African countries have to rely on a ex colonial power like France to protect them from muslim Assassin/Hashashin bandit Alqaeda.
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- "...the second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula.'
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