quote:

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Originally posted by malibudusul:
I know.
The black natives of europe
were called that?
The word Moor is always associated with black Muslims who invaded
europe.

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This topic is complicated and can be confusing.

In European history books even old ones they don't name black people as native to Europe.

When the Muslims invaded Spain the Europeans called them "Moors" This included all Muslims who lived in North Africa including Black African Muslims. Arabs and Berbers.
Sometimes Moors were described as "pitch black" but Moors are not always described as pitch black. Some were brown and even light brown.
In Mauretania today they call some people "white Moors" and other People "black Moors" The ones they call "white moors" are not white like North West Europeans. They are brown and light brown sometimes yellowish brown


President of Mauretania
"white Moor" or "beydane"


"black Moor" or "haratin"

In old European writing they called the invaders of Spain "Moors"

But they also started calling anybody from Africa "Moors"

It depends on the writer

There is no record of native black people in Europe in the historical civilization period. They were calling African "Moors"

There are some prehistoric skeletons found in Europe from periods like 25-30,000 years ago.
The people came from Central Asia.
You can't tell skin color from skulls like that and they are not mummies just bare bones.
Scientist say some of these skulls look like a combination of Austrailian Aboriginee and African.
How many of these people lived in Europe nobody knows. They found small numbers of these skelteons and they are hard to find some like the Grimaldi are from caves.

What happened in Europe was that the Ice age came and around 15,000. The theory is that Europe became so cold that first people living there either died or left Europe, some returning to Africa or the Middle East. Later, around 10,000 years ago some people from the Mid east went into the Turkey region and then into Southern Europe. Others went into North Europe also from Central Asia like the first people of Europe but amny thosands of years later a different people.

The civilization period of Europe is maybe 5000 years old.
Writing in Europe dates back to maybe 3500 years ago.


In medieval times in Europe starting around 410 Ad there were very few black people in Europe, maybe in the hundreds.
Some were slaves others traders

Th largest population was in al-Andulus, the Muslim Span, who came in in the 8th century, thousands, some black some mixed and also other Muslims.

The Europeans did not use their term "Moor" strictly.
Sometimes they meant any Muslim living in North Africa or Spain but at other times it meant any African, like Ethiopians who had nothing to do with the invasion of Spain
The Arabs and Turks bought some black slaves from Ethiopia and sold them to the Middle East and Europe. Some of them coverted to Christianity and became freemen. These are the black people you see in the paintings.
 

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Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
 
Muurs of the eastern and southern seas:

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/negritoes-of-philipines-moors-of-the-eastern-and-the-southern-seas-oguejiofo-annu/
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness

quote:

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It is not a synonym for any Muslim. It is for Muslims who lived in North Africa. The Ottoman Turks for example ruled Islam and were Muslim but not called Moor

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The term was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existance..and it generally denote a Black person oft an exceptionally dark-skinned person..yes later it came to cover Muslims but not exclusively so.
 

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Abu'l-Walid Ibn Rushd, also known as Averroes (1126-1198)


This is a black muslim.
is proven.

so now we know how were the
black Muslims

they use a bonnet
or something



Blacks natives from europe wear a white headband

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Lioness

quote:

---

It is not a synonym for any Muslim. It is for Muslims who lived in North Africa. The Ottoman Turks for example ruled Islam and were Muslim but not called Moor

---

The term was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existance..and it generally denote a Black person oft an exceptionally dark-skinned person..yes later it came to cover Muslims but not exclusively so.

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1) lets see some primary source text where this is shown to prove it

2) were the ancient Egyptians. ancient Libyans and Shaka Zulu moors?
 

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Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
 
Egyptians were called:

Ta-muuris, the original Muurs (the Holy Blacks) or Kememuur aka Kememu (the Black ones).

All the Blacks of North Africa were called Muuritanians or Libu

The Zulus are Muurs, because they claim origins from North African and the Egyptians

Any Muur questions?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malibudusul:
Abu'l-Walid Ibn Rushd, also known as Averroes (1126-1198)


This is a black muslim.
is proven.

so now we know how were the
black Muslims

they use a bonnet
or something



Blacks natives from europe wear a white headband

---

original flag of Sardinia

original coat of Arms Sardinia



later version blindfold changed to headband



Saracens killing Christian prisoner, a 14th-century miniature

Saracens raids

Starting from 705–706, the Saracens from North Africa (recently conquered by the Arab armies) aatcked the population of Sardinia in the following centuries is scarce. Another massive Saracen sea attack in 1015-16 from Balearics, led by Mujahid , the saracen's attempt of invasion of the island was stopped by Sardinian Giudicati with the support of the Fleets of Maritime Republics of Pisa and Genoa. Pope Benedict VIII asked the aid of the maritime republics of Pisa and Genoa in the struggle against the Arabs.

Peter of Aragon being presented the heads of four defeated Moorish kings
 

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
the word "Negro"
was used in XIII century



Astrological symbol for the stone Almagnitaz. Lapidario of Alfonso X the Wise. XIII century. Parchment. 118 fols. Escorial, Real Monasterio, Biblioteca, Cod. H. I. 15, fol. 97v (detail). Hickey & Robertson, Houston/The Menil Foundation.

http://www.imageoftheblack.com/gallery.html
 

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Lioness these images show black natives from europe!
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malibudusul:
the word "Negro"
was used in XIII century



Astrological symbol for the stone Almagnitaz. Lapidario of Alfonso X the Wise. XIII century. Parchment. 118 fols. Escorial, Real Monasterio, Biblioteca, Cod. H. I. 15, fol. 97v (detail). Hickey & Robertson, Houston/The Menil Foundation.

http://www.imageoftheblack.com/gallery.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by malibudusul:
Lioness these images show black natives from europe!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IronLion:
Egyptians were called:

Ta-muuris, the original Muurs (the Holy Blacks) or Kememuur aka Kememu (the Black ones).

All the Blacks of North Africa were called Muuritanians or Libu

The Zulus are Muurs, because they claim origins from North African and the Egyptians

Any Muur questions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mena7:
.

Lioness you write your picture is of Peter of Aragon being presented the head of four Moorish kings.In Mike realhistoryww.com he stated the black heads was Peter of Aragon.

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Mike does not say that. He says that the man sitting at left with the crown is Peter of Aragon.
Below is the version on his site





http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Crests/History_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire_2.htm
_________________________________________________


Peter I went to war with the Moors one of the battles was called the Battle of Alcoraz.
The Almoravid Moor's heads were chopped off and presented to Peter I.
Notice the shield is just the red cross. Later they used that red cross and added the Moors heads on it to communicate to the Moors the they were head choppers
 

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
Thank, mena.

We all are Moors!


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malibudusul:
Thank, mena.

We all are Moors!

---

The Moors are the ones who helped supply European and Black slaves to the Ottoman Turks.The black males were sometimes used as slave soldiers and others had their balls cut off so they could protect the white female harem slaves but not lust after them.

slaves of the Turks: Harem Guards


Jéan Léone Gérôme Title: Eunuch Guarding a Door

Ernst, Harem Guard



Eunuchs May Outlive Other Men
Stephanie Pappas, LiveScience

It's a life-extending strategy most men probably won't want to pursue, but new research suggests eunuchs live longer than non-castrated guys.

Historical Korean eunuchs — men who had their testicles removed in order to secure high positions in the palace hierarchy — outlived their non-castrated counterparts by as much as 20 years, the study finds. The results will be published tomorrow (Sept. 25) in the journal Current Biology.

In animals, castration tends to lengthen life span, likely because male sex hormones aren't great for the health. Testosterone is an immune-system suppressor, for example, and can also increase the risk for cardiovascular disease.

But in humans, results have been mixed as to whether castration lengthens life span. One study on patients in a mental hospital found that it does, while another on castrated and non-castrated male singers found that it does not. Nevertheless, researchers have theorized that testosterone's effects may be the reason women outlive men on average. Other research has suggested a genetic explanation for this life-span gap. [7 Ways to Live Past 100]

In the new study, Inha University researcher Kyung-Jin Min and his colleagues scoured the historical records from Korea's Chosun (or Joseon) Dynasty, which ran from 1392 to 1910. Until 1894, castration was a way for men to gain access to political power and prestige in the dynasty. Eunuchs could achieve official ranks and marry and adopt girls and similarly castrated boys in order to maintain a family lineage. Eunuchs and male royal family members were the only men allowed to stay overnight in the royal palace.

In fact, eunuchs were used in many ancient empires to guard royal harems, given that they could not impregnate an emperor's queen or mistress, according to "Hidden Power: The Palace Eunuchs of Imperial China" (Buffalo NY: Prometheus, 1990). Without children of their own, eunuchs were also thought to be more loyal and less likely to attempt to establish their own family dynasties.

By comparing an 1805 genealogy of eunuchs and their families with other court documents, Min and his colleagues were able to determine the life spans of 81 eunuchs. They then compared those life spans with those of non-castrated men of similar socioeconomic status living at the same time. These men were members of three prominent families, most of whom were martial officers or civil administrators.

They found that the average life span for a Korean court eunuch was about 70 years, plus or minus 1.76 years. That was 14.4 to 19.1 years longer than their average non-eunuch contemporaries, who tended to live between 50.9 and 55.6 years.

The differences couldn't be explained by a cushy palace existence, the researchers wrote, because most eunuchs only went to the palace when on-duty and lived outside it. In fact, male members of the royal family, who spent all their time in palaces, had the shortest lives, making it to about 45 or 47 years of age on average.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness

quote:

---

quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Lioness

quote: It is not a synonym for any Muslim. It is for Muslims who lived in North Africa. The Ottoman Turks for example ruled Islam and were Muslim but not called Moor

The term was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existance..and it generally denote a Black person oft an exceptionally dark-skinned person..yes later it came to cover Muslims but not exclusively so.

1) lets see some primary source text where this is shown to prove it

2) were the ancient Egyptians. ancient Libyans and Shaka Zulu moors?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:


The term (Moor) was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existance..and it generally denote a Black person oft an exceptionally dark-skinned person..yes later it came to cover Muslims but not exclusively so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
all Blacks were Moors but all moors were not actually Black whats so hard to understand about that.

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1) what distinguishes a black Moor from any black African?


"These Moors are black, and some of them tawny; some of them speak Arabic " -Duarte Barbosa


Below two people that could pass for Moors:



[/QB]

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lion half jokingly touched on some thing with his West Muur land comment in another thread,for In Jamaica an exceptionally dark-skinned person was/is often teased as a Blackie Moor,and while I need to look into how Westmoreland got it's name,it does not seemed to have gotten it's name from anyone in particular just an English re naming of the Spanish Savanna-la-Mar

The parish was named Westmoreland in 1703, because it was the most westerly point in the island. Savanna-la-Mar, a town by the coast, replaced Banbury as the capital in 1730.

However a town of self-liberated Blacks under no supervision from any Englishmen (as they would have been shot or hacked to death on approach)was named Moore's Town litterally town of the Moors

The Maroons and Moore Town Colonel C. L. G. Harris

When the famous navigator, Christopher Columbus, reached Jamaica on May 4, 1494, he found Arawak Indians there--gentle, peaceful aborigines. These people were put to unaccustomed hard work, and this resulted in a dramatic decrease in their numbers. At this point a plea was made on their behalf by Bartholome de las Casas, who asked the Spanish authorities to replace them with African workers; he claimed they were better suited for such strenuous labor. What "the Apostle of the Indians" failed to understand was that slavery was an evil irrespective of the tribe or nation involved. His advice was accepted, and soon men and women were wrenched from their homeland in West Africa to become slaves in Jamaica.

On May 10, 1655, a British military force under Admiral Penn and General Venables landed in Jamaica and captured it. At the end of the action the black bondsmen took themselves to the mountains, where they made their pledge never to be slaves again--a pledge destined to remain secure in a sanctum of inviolability--and soon war between them and the British became inevitable. After more than 80 years of warfare, they were approached by the British on a mission of peace. And so in 1739, a peace treaty was drawn up. By virtue of the treaty, they received among other benefits tax-free lands in different parts of the island where succeeding generations have since lived continuously. These are the Maroons of Jamaica.

The Moore Town Maroons are considered special in comparison with their counterparts in other sections of Jamaica, and the following are some reasons for this, not necessarily in order of their importance:

The acreage of land they own exceeds by far that of any other such community.

The Maroon language, Kromanti--an equivalent of the Asante Twi of Ghana- is better known among them than in the other communities.

Their wizardry with the ambush--the camouflage created by Grandy Nanny and her warriors--is to this day a concept unattainable by others.

In the manufacture of their drums, only material actually grown in their territory is used--apart from the goatskin, on occasion.

Their Kromanti Dance is one of inherent seriousness; it is never frivolous, even when done for the sole purpose of entertainment.

No colonel or chief (these terms are interchangeable) of Moore Town has ever sought the office--each has been taken unawares when asked to accept the position; on every occasion there has been election by acclamation.

From almost every sector of the world messages extolling their warm hospitality are constantly being received by the Maroons of Moore Town.

The community of Moore Town was founded by the legendary Grandy Nanny, now a Jamaican National Hero--the greatest Maroon leader ever to set foot on Jamaican soil--from whom descended the most notable line of families in its population.

Often in interviews the question has been asked of me, "What does it mean to you to be a Maroon today ?" When it is considered that Grandy Nanny, Kojo, Accompong and others of our leaders prevailed against the forces of a kingdom that ruled more than a quarter of all the lands on earth, then the pride of their Maroon posterity can be understood and appreciated. Yet these physical victories gave rise to other victories of deep moral, psychological and spiritual significance which increased that pride and its concomitant thankfulness a hundredfold. If the Maroons had been defeated, meaningful black resistance to the indignity and cruelty of African slavery would have ended--at least for a season--and so even today the cries of the tortured might still have been heard on the plantations, in the dungeons and from myriad village squares across the world. The knowledge that the Mother of my fathers, from her base in little Jamaica, burst asunder the prison bars of black bondage means more to me than life itself. It is like a sacrament taken daily as I kneel in humility at the feet of Nyankopon (The Creator) in the peaceful evening hour. Nyame adom (Thank God), I would not change my Maroon heritage for occupancy of the White House nor the grandeur of the British throne.

It is most important to understand that these people brought language, culture and extra-sensory attributes from Mother Africa some five centuries ago which survived the vicissitudes of existence in what was once a 'strange land'--an inhospitable environment--and they are dedicated to the preservation of all that is best in their past. And though extremely poor in terms of dollars and cents, they refuse to be mendicants or ciphers in a ruthless political game. Thus our vast potential for the greater good of humanity awaits the coming day when some wise, decent gentleman or lady will join us in developing our assets to his or her benefit and ours.

The Maroon Story--an odyssey of courage and endurance--is sublimely inspirational in testifying to the fact that mortals may, by fixity of purpose, strength of character, and constancy of faith, rise from the purely physical plane where circumscription is dominant, to the yet unexplored heights of the spiritual, where the horizons are illimitable; where wonders are wrought; where there is communion and fellowship with the souls of departed heroes, and angels minister to the needs of men; whence the armies of bondage are broken and overcome.

This inspiration reflects eternal sunshine on the faces of men and women kneeling at the feet of The Infinite as they prepare to offer their lives, if necessary, for that freedom without which life is depth.

L.G. Harris has been Colonel of the Moore Town Maroons since 1964 and for many years also served as Principal of the All-Age School in Moore Town. The author of a number of books and articles on the Jamaican Maroon heritage, he is also a poet whose work has appeared in The Daily Gleaner and a number of other publications.

http://www.folklife.si.edu/resources/maroon/educational_guide/60.htm
Incidentally I have kin folks from the area.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
"These Moors are black, and some of them tawny; some of them speak Arabic " -Duarte Barbosa


Below two people that could pass for Moors:





^^^^ the above persons would probably be called black by earlier writers. They didn't use words for brown and some of the languages did not even have a word for brown in earlier times. Even today Will Smith is regarded as black even though he is clearly brown and not pitch black. Modern Americans reserve the term black for people of African ancestry. Ancient writers did not and the other man who is tawny could be called a Moor meaning black if he was Muslim and living in Africa at the time.
There is also a term "blackamoor"

"tawny" is a word that only goes back to the 14th century

_________________________

tawny (n.)
"tan-colored," late 14c., from Anglo-French tauné "associated with the brownish-yellow of tanned leather," from Old French tané (12c.), pp. of taner "to tan hides," from Medieval Latin tannare (see tan).

__________________________

Also note Barbosa doesn't say "tawny Moors"
he says " Moors are black some of them tawny"

And I've been saying this for two years here


.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness you asked for and got your answer no need to picture spam,Barbarosa's voyage was only a few decades after the re-conquesta so your 800yrs after Islam point is mute.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

The term(Moor) was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existance ..and it generally denote a Black person oft an exceptionally dark-skinned person..yes later it came to cover Muslims but not exclusively so.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Lioness you asked for and got your answer no need to picture spam,Barbarosa's voyage was only a few decades after the re-conquesta so your 800yrs after Islam point is mute.

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quote:

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Duarte Barbosa was born in 1480. Muslims came into existence in the 7th century. The first invasion into Africa was in 647

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Lioness

quote:

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Duarte Barbosa was born in 1480. Muslims came into existence in the 7th century. The first invasion into Africa was in 647

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Yes and ended in 1492 with the Moorish capital of Granada captured; Boabdil gives up the city to Isabel of Castile and Ferdinad.

Like is said a few decades after the re-conquesta.

Much shorter in time span actually from the end of WWII or even Vietnam is to us.

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quote:

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the request was for a source of usage of the word "Moor" before Islam which began around 609-632 before 609 AD because you said the term(Moor) was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existence

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Loiness

quote:

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the request was for a source of usage of the word "Moor" before Islam which began around 609-632 before 609 AD because you said the term(Moor) was attested to well before anything called a Muslim came into existence

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How many times are you gonna ask answers to questions that was already posted over and over again?
For the last time here.

“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

- Martial, VI, 39.

“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.”
Claudian.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=4#ixzz2KNcRha4Z

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^^^ English translations, we need the line in latin

I'm not playing with you
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness you can look that up yourself as at best I was a bad Catholic and pig latin won't do..for while I can find it, most of it will be meaningles to me as Chinese being spoken rapidly.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/juvenal/6.shtml

_______________________________

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

tantum artes huius, tantum medicamina possunt, 595
quae steriles facit atque homines in uentre necandos
conducit. gaude, infelix, atque ipse bibendum
porrige quidquid erit; nam si distendere uellet
et uexare uterum pueris salientibus, esses
Aethiopis fortasse pater, mox decolor heres 600

____________________________________


^^^^ only Aethiopis is used on those lines
"Maurus" or Mauri the latin later the word Moor deriving form doesn't appear

Now look at 331-340, same poem, that is where Mauri is used:

si nihil est, seruis incurritur; abstuleris spem
seruorum, uenit et conductus aquarius; hic si
quaeritur et desunt homines, mora nulla per ipsam
quo minus inposito clunem summittat asello.
atque utinam ritus ueteres et publica saltem 335
his intacta malis agerentur sacra; sed omnes
nouerunt Mauri atque Indi quae psaltria penem
maiorem quam sunt duo Caesaris Anticatones
illuc, testiculi sibi conscius unde fugit mus,
intulerit, ubi uelari pictura iubetur 340

rough translation:

If you have nothing to be guilty of slaves; away hope
of the servants, He came and He was hired aquatic; This man, if
is asked, and there are no men, there is no delay by it
to prevent laying on the buttocks are expedient.
Would the old rites and public at least 335
should be kept free from such rites, but all the
Moors and Indians knew what FEMALE HARPIST'S penis
larger than are two Caesar Speeches criticizing Cato
yonder testicles conscious so we fled,
Padua, where the picture is ordered 340 uelari

(funny sh!t)


^^^^^ how do we know because this word Mauri is used that the Numidians/anceint Mauretanians are the same people who would become the Almoravid Moors who invaded spain?
You can see how the ancient poems are not exactly history texts, they are poems. Also note how "Indi" supposedly Indians is used in the same breath as Mauri. That is odd.

here is the location of the Almoravid the Lamtuna and the Gudala, which were nomadic Berber tribes of the Sahara traversing the territory between southern Morocco, the Niger river and the Senegal river.



the ancient mauri are here



^^^ ancient Mauritania did not go down the West coast like that.
(section 25 purple = ancient mauritania )

Not to be confused with the modern countries of Mauritania and Mauritius.
Mauretania (spelled with an E instead of I)

Mauretania was part of Ancient Libya during antiquity, situated west of Numidia. It corresponded to the Mediterranean coast of what is today Morocco and western Algeria.
The province was finally lost to the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb in 698

The point is that the term Moor is used differently in different periods it could be applied to various people and as you brought out Barbossa said in the 15th ce:

"These Moors are black, and some of them tawny; some of them "

so I don't know what the argument is about.

there is a long period between the end of ancient mauritania and the Almoravids therefore it's hard to say that they were Numidian Mauri of the Roman province Mauritania



By the time of the Golden Age of the Moor thyere were signifcant influxes of Arabs who mixed and were also called Moors by Euroepans. The term has no precision.
In my opinion it is best to reserve for the Almoravids


The first known historical king of the Mauri is Bagas, who ruled during the Second Punic War. The Mauri were in close contact with Numidia. Bocchus I (fl. 110 BC) was father-in-law to Jugurtha.

Mauretania became a Roman client kingdom of the Roman Empire in 33 BC. The Romans placed Juba II of Numidia as their client-king.

Bocchus (Greek: Βοκχος, Bochos) was a king of Mauretania about 110 BC and designated by historians as Bocchus I. He was also the father-in-law of Jugurtha, with whom he made war against the Romans. He delivered Jugurtha to the Romans in 106 BC.


Mauretania. Bocchus II. 49-33 BC. AE 18, 3.12g. (9h). LixObv: Bearded head of king right; Punic

Bocchus II of Mauretania


Jugurtha
(Ca. 160-104 BCE) King of Numidia 113-104 BCE.


^^^^ These are Mauri

because the later much later word "Moor" is derived form that we cannot assume that "golden Age" Moors who invaded Spain are the same Mauretanians of the Roman provinces that is why scholars don't use Moor and Mauri interchangably even though there is a relationship between the words, they may overlap as people but that overlap could be very little

Howver the tradition is just to call anybody you want "Moor"

That is why the term is no good. It was not applied by the Almorvids to themselves. yet they are who are most famous for being called Moors because they invaded Spain and set up an Islamic culture and they were known to be radical fundamantalists
Did those people say they were descended from Bagus and Bocchus?

You have to expand your knowledge on ancinet Numidians/Mauretanians and Almoravids and not just retread dana in Van Sertima over and over again as the only source.

Who are the people that invaded Spain? They were the Almoravids, people of North West Africa added to by and influx of Arabs and inpired by a pilgimage to Mecca.
Ancient Mauritania is not the location of modern Maritania.
The Almoravids led by Morrocans and tribes going down into what is now called Morocco and Mauritania.

The ancient Mauri hundreds of years older were located not in the modern mauritania spelled with an I location they wer located in what is now called Tunisia/Libya.

Now move up in time to African slaves who were brought into the Mid East and then to Europe and Indian in the 15th century.
Many Europeans then started calling these people "Moors" in writing even though they were ofeten from Ethiopia or Zanzibar had nothing to do with the invaion of Iberia or Al-Andulus or the ancient mauri/Numidians
The word got applied to any African at that point.

So if you prefer you can do the same and say all Africans are Moors. I prefer not to.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Mauri atque Indi
so Mauri here was used along with Indi from the Red Sea..with is interchangable with Nigri meaning Black.kinda like Ethiopian but in this instance they are sailing down the Red Sea from Mimphis which would put the Black Indi in either Africa proper or Arabia felix.




and for you from his Egyptian city
comes sailing the gallant of Memphis, and the black Indian from the Red Sea; nor do you shun the
lecheries of circumcised Jews.

Pharia Memphiticus urbe fututor

navigat, a rubris et niger Indus aquis ;
nee recutitorum fugis inguina ludaeorum, 5

nee te Sarmatico transit Alarms equo.
qua ratione facis, cum sis Romana puella,
BOOK VI. LXXVII-LXXX

even Artemidorus l when he won in the contest, why
do you like to be the load of six Cappadocians ? You
are laughed at, and are much more a spectacle, Afer,
than if you were to walk naked in the midst of the
Forum. Similar would be the sight of an Atlas 2
with a small mule to match him, or a black elephant carrying a Libyan of the same hue Do you want to know how offensive your litter is ? Even when dead you ought not to be carried in a litter and six. 3
tarn fortis quam nee cum vinceret Artemidorus,

quid te Cappadocum sex onus esse iuvat ?
rideris multoque magis traduceris, Afer, 5

quam nudus medio si spatiere foro.
non aliter monstratur Atlans cum compare ginno

quaeque vehit similem belua nigra Libyn
invidiosa tibi quam sit lectica requiris ?

non debes ferri mortuus hexaphoro. 10
http://archive.org/stream/martialepigrams01martiala/martialepigrams01martiala_djvu.tx

And I am not a one book reader I sight Snoweden as well as Rogers and others..btw I ididn't want to do this sh't as it makes my freaking eyes tears up,there are other stuff on there but all that damned scrolling in a dead language..but you produced so should I.


And how about some morphological variety..we can't tell just how lite or dark your coins are

But we know what they folks looked liked in reality..Ethiopian and Axumite coins.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The topic was hwta does "Moor" mean your answer here seem to be "anybody with darks skin" , Ethiopians, Indians etc,
So why is the invasion of Iberia the Goden age of the Moor. Why isn't the Egyptian empire whicha lasted 5000 years, India or Axum the golden age of the Moor?
Now Moor means including India and East Africa?


This is a Moor?


Phoenician Scarab


^^^^ please don't put up stuff like this without captions

It seems to be from Ibiza




In 654 BC Phoenician settlers founded a port in the Balearic Islands, as Ibossim (from the Phoenician iboshim dedicated to the god of the music and dance Bes). It was later known to Romans as "Ebusus." The Greeks, who came to Ibiza during the time of the Phoenicians, were the first to call the two islands of Ibiza and Formentera the Pityûssae (Greek: Πιτυοῦσσαι, "pine-covered islands").With the decline of Phoenicia after the Assyrian invasions, Ibiza came under the control of Carthage, also a former Phoenician colony.

After the fall of the Roman empire and a brief period of first Vandal and then Byzantine rule, the island was conquered by the Moors in 990, the few remaining locals converted to Islam and Berber settlers came in. Under Islamic rule, Ibiza came in close contact with the city of Dénia—the closest port in the nearby Iberian peninsula, located in the Valencian Community—and the two areas were administered jointly by the Taifa of Dénia.

Ibiza together with the islands of Formentera and Menorca were invaded by the Norwegian king Sigurd I of Norway in the spring of 1110 on his crusade to Jerusalem. The king had previously conquered the cities of Sintra, Lisbon and Alcácer do Sal and given them over to Christian rulers, in an effort to weaken the Muslim grip on the Iberian peninsula. King Sigurd continued to Sicily where he visited King Roger II of Sicily.[citation needed]

The island was conquered by Aragonese King James I in 1235. The local Muslim population got deported as was the case with neighboring Mallorca and the mainland Levant. New Christian colonists were brought in from Girona. The island maintained its own self-government in several forms until 1715, when King Philip V of Spain abolished the local government's autonomy. The arrival of democracy in the late 1970s led to the Statute of Autonomy of the Balearic Islands. Today the island is part of the Balearic Autonomous Community, along with Majorca, Minorca and Formentera.


Phoenician Scarab


Classical Phoenician Scarab Corpus

'Classical Phoenician scarabs' were made in Phoenicia in the period of the Achaemenid Persian empire, from the later sixth century to the mid-fourth century BC. Beside the Etruscan, they are the last major production of scarab seals of antiquity. They are made of green jasper, the colour probably being of as much importance as their intaglios since it enhances their amuletic value.

Most of the 1500 examples known have been found in the west Phoenician (Punic) cemeteries of Carthage, Sardinia and Ibiza (Spain), but there are many also from the east Mediterranean. It was long held that all were western products but it is more likely, on many other grounds, that they were made in the Phoenician homeland. They served as jewellery, as offerings in tombs and sanctuaries, and for their primary function of sealing. Many were given precious metal mounts.

The subjects of the intaglios are the most eclectic of any medium of the period. They include Egyptianizing (the common stock of Phoenicia for many years), Levantine (more Syrian in style and subject) and Hellenizing (mainly following late archaic Greek subjects and styles, whence many have been called Greco-Phoenician). But there are also many Miscellaneous, and much overlapping of categories, which are simply for the convenience of scholars and not to be taken as reflecting on use or provenience. To each category in the catalogue given here is appended a select list of scarabs with the same subjects in other materials (with X numbers) some of which are also illustrated; these appear to be of the same period and from the same sites but not the same workshops.

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what is your point in posting this scarab? It is from the Phoenician period of Ibiza,
late 6th c BC to mid fourth c. BC


Context:
other Phoenician coins from Ibiza

http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/gems/scarab/scarab.htm

^^^click each numbered catagory for photos


above pic + joined heads section

also see sections
heads
negro
+ all the sections
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness

quote:

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The topic was hwta does "Moor" mean your answer here seem to be "anybody with darks skin" , Ethiopians, Indians etc, So why is the invasion of Iberia the Goden age of the Moor. Why isn't the Egyptian empire whicha lasted 5000 years, India or Axum the golden age of the Moor? Now Moor means including India and East Africa?

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