This is topic Do the Berbers descend of Iberumaurians? in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago" (Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345)
from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927

Where is this based on?

Thanks in advance,
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?
 
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
Last week I was reading in a Bantu Hebrew blog that the Moor, Berber and Touareg people are Moabite and Ammonite from West Asia.Another blog stated the metis Berber are the result of the mixtured of the black Kamite and the white female Turkish slaves of their harem.Cheikh Anta Diop stated the Moors(black) are from Yemen in the Arabian peninsula.

According to the Bantu Hebrew blog the West African are Egyptian, the Kongo and Bantu people are Hebrew, the Horn Africans are Canaanite.

Im open minded but I have to do more research to verify their history.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago" (Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345)
from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927

Where is this based on?

Thanks in advance,

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa 2004

Barbara Arredi,1,2,



Abstract
We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.....


Together, these genetic analyses highlighted the similarity between northeastern Africa and the Middle East and the clear genetic differentiation between northwestern Africa and both sub-Saharan Africa and Europe, including Iberia.....

In contrast, R1b made up 55% of a mixed European sample [Underhill et al. 2000] and was even higher [77%] in the Iberian sample examined by Bosch et al. [2001], whereas E3a predominates in many sub-Saharan areas, being present at 64% in a pooled sample [Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002]. Such a finding is not surprising, in the light of the earlier genetic studies, but has an important implication: despite haplogroups shared at low frequency, suggesting limited gene flow, North African populations have a genetic history largely distinct from both Europe and sub-Saharan Africa over the timescales needed for the Y-chromosomal differentiation to develop.




____________________________________________________

^^^^ I just bumped my older thread titled the same as this article it includes the chart.






lioness productions
 
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?

The traditional idea is that the Berbers descending from The Capsians. The Capsians would have replaced the Mechta-Afalou / North African Cro-magnon. But, if the quoted statement would be genetically prooved. That would than mean that the Capsians would have evolved from the Iberomaurusian/mechta-afalou.
M81 was dated back to -+5600 years ago, this was the time of the Capsian culture, but someone told me that the M81 is redated to 15000 years ago, because of a haplogroup called:V257.
" A newly discovered mutation, V257, combined all the E-M81"
If so, the E-81/V257 would go back to the time of the Iberomaurisians.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?

The traditional idea is that the Berbers descending from The Capsians. The Capsians would have replaced the Mechta-Afalou / North African Cro-magnon. But, if the quoted statement would be genetically prooved. That would than mean that the Capsians would have evolved from the Iberomaurusian/mechta-afalou.
M81 was dated back to -+5600 years ago, this was the time of the Capsian culture, but someone told me that the M81 is redated to 15000 years ago, because of a haplogroup called:V257.
" A newly discovered mutation, V257, combined all the E-M81"
If so, the E-81/V257 would go back to the time of the Iberomaurisians.

read:

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008411

^^^^ full article link in thread, M81, M215 discussed

M257 discussed in second post by Troll

these are all sub clades of M215

M81 is a more recent mutation unique to berbers

Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe. An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other authors, and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.
—Trombetta et al. 2011

 
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
Thanks lioness,
But keep it easy for me, since my "genetic knowlege" is almost zero.

Can someone explain this to me:
What is the impact of Trombetta's discovery on the date / origin of the M81? And how?

Thanks,
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
Thanks lioness,
But keep it easy for me, since my "genetic knowlege" is almost zero.

Can someone explain this to me:
What is the impact of Trombetta's discovery on the date / origin of the M81? And how?

Thanks,

read basic haplogroup introduction:

http://www.familytreedna.com/understanding-haplogroups.aspx

Some people in the forum will date a sub clade wich is a unique mutation to it's related parent haplogroup. It is a misleading simplification. people around here do this a lot. If you trace back any subclade eventually it all leads back to Africa. People do this and then claim any given haplogroup is African, which it is only in a very broad sense that mankind is believed to have originated in Africa

In human genetics, E-Z827, is the name of a major Y chromosome haplogroup. It is defined as the lineage which combines the haplogroups E-Z830 and E-V257, and defines their common ancestry. The former is predominantly found in Eastern Africa, Southern Africa and the Middle East, while the later is most frequently observed in North Western Africa.
age: approx 15,000 years BP

M81 is a more recent mutation believed to be about 5,600 years ago. The geographic origin of M81 is controversial to some extent:

wiki:

E-M81 is the most common subclade of E-L19/V257 and found in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 100% in some isolated Berber populations to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[10][11][12] Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker". Pereira et al. (2010) report high levels among Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina Faso, and 81.8% from Gossi in Mali. There was a much lower frequency of 11.1% in the vicinity of Tanut in the Republic of Niger.

E-M81 is also quite common among North African Arabic-speaking groups. It is generally found at frequencies around 45% in coastal cities of the Maghreb (Oran, Tunis, Tizi Ouzou, Algiers).[13]

In this key area from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean, Arredi et al. (2004) report a pattern of decreasing STR haplotype variation (implying decreasing lineage age in those areas) from East to West, accompanied by a substantial increasing frequency. At the eastern extreme of this core range, Kujanova et al. (2009) found M81 in 28.6% (10 out of 35 men) in El-Hayez in the Western desert in Egypt

Arredi et al. (2004) believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic "demic diffusion" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic language may have been carried either all the way from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". According to Shomarka Keita, a Near Eastern origin of proto-Afroasiatic speakers carrying E-M81, or its ancestral lineage, is inconsistent with the linguistic evidence, which seems to indicate an African origin of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers. Keita argues that there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in the Maghreb, or possibly as far southeast as the Horn of Africa.[14]

[edit]Europe
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 2] it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency around 5%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[15][16][17][18][19] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[19] to 41% (23/56).[20] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[21]

E-M81 is also found in France, 2.70% (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[22][23] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina),[24] and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (especially near Lucera)[18] due to historic colonization during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires or ancient migrations in the Metals Ages through maritime means.

______________________________


I'm going to post the Cruciani/ Trombetta/ La Fratta

Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12


in Egyptology forum

haven't read it yet
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
sighhhhh!!!

Came from? They came from Africa, where else? Good Gad!

Male indigenous North Africans are primarily E1b1b*. Their autosomal SNP put them in Africa. Their FBI CODIS STR markers list them as "negro".

The female are U6 and H1 and L*. All African lineage. Although the jury is out on H1.

 -

 -


 - [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
And what is that clown talking about...??

Quote:

"Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out"
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Quote: ""The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago""

That has been corrected to >90,000ya
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^^ reply as predicted by lioness productions
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Just read the Abstract....I read the entire paper a couple of years ago. Amazing when you re-read things the new insight you get.

I am quickly come to the conclusion that not only was the Levant a major thoroughfare OUT of Africa, and not the Horn, but Iberia and Tunisia also.


Quote: The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 AND 6.8 ky ago.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12


in Egyptology forum

haven't read it yet


 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Weeelll?! what do you expect? You know the answer then why post the question? He! He! He!
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ reply as predicted by lioness productions


 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Weeelll?! what do you expect? You know the answer then why post the question? He! He! He!
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ reply as predicted by lioness productions


when will you be discussing M81?
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Can't help it. It is my technical background. You know...focus on the question asked ie issue at hand.

Title: Do the Berbers descend of Iberumaurians?

Answer: the Berbers did NOT come from Iberia.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Can't help it. It is my technical background. You know...focus on the question asked ie issue at hand.

Title: Do the Berbers descend of Iberumaurians?

Answer: the Berbers did NOT come from Iberia.

The article in the first post says they descend from middle eastern people and yes that is not Iberia despite the name " Iberumaurian"
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The Majority, yes. What those authors are basing it on, however, I don't know. You certainly wouldn't see it in their Y chromosomal haplogroup profile because those lineages died out. Where else did you think Berbers come from?

The traditional idea is that the Berbers descending from The Capsians. The Capsians would have replaced the Mechta-Afalou / North African Cro-magnon. But, if the quoted statement would be genetically prooved. That would than mean that the Capsians would have evolved from the Iberomaurusian/mechta-afalou.
M81 was dated back to -+5600 years ago, this was the time of the Capsian culture, but someone told me that the M81 is redated to 15000 years ago, because of a haplogroup called:V257.
" A newly discovered mutation, V257, combined all the E-M81"
If so, the E-81/V257 would go back to the time of the Iberomaurisians.

Hi Mazigh.

The largest contribution Berbers have received overall is from the Ibero-Maurusians. This view is supported by genome-wide analysis of Berber populations (though not by haplogroup analysis). When you correlate the appearance of Capsian populations with haplogroups, the only haplogroups that dates to this time period are (subclades of) H1, H4 and some others, like U5. These are all Iberian lineages that also spread to the rest of Europe, around the same time.

If the Capsians would have come from the East, then we would expect to see the highest amount of this ancestry in the East, and the lowest amount of this ancestry in the West. This is, in fact, the exact opposite of what we see. Capsian populations don't really look like anything that's in Eastern Africa either (in terms of bodyplan, mandible and cranio-facial phenotype in general), nor did they bring with them typical East African characteristics that were prevalent in Northeast Africa at the time, like ground stones and extensive grain collecting. These behaviours are attested very early linguistically in Proto-Afrasan, so their absence in the Capsian cultures is quite telling.

E-M81 seems to have originated among E-V257 carrying Afrasan speaking groups during/after (not before) their expansion to Northwest Africa. These groups look to have been, among others, Badarian-like cultured populations that introduced certain Neolithic characteristics to the Capsians, and whom also reached Iberia. Capsians also received Neolithic input from Neolithic traditions other than Africans, but that's another subject.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
the Aterian was succeeded by the Iberomaurusian culture, which shared similarities with Iberian cultures. Skeletal similarities have been suggested between the Iberomaurusian "Mechta-Afalou" burials and European Cro-Magnon remains. The Iberomaurusian was succeeded by the Beaker culture in Morocco.

Studies have discovered a close link between Berbers and the Saami of Scandinavia which confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the last ice age
____________________________________________________________

http://www.arch.ox.ac.uk/leverhulme/timeframe/timeframe.html

Oxford Univ

The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. A key question surrounds its appearance in the Maghreb, a semi-arid upland zone on the edge of the Sahara, soon after the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 years ago) and despite evidence for a continuation into the Holocene very little is known either about the later part of this timespan or what processes led to its disappearance after 9000 years ago. An issue rarely commented upon is the apparently synchronous and sudden occurrence of large scale midden deposits in Iberomaurusian contexts in caves across the western Maghreb at around 13,000 years ago. This also seems to have coincided with the appearance of some of the earliest cemeteries.
___________________________________________________

J Hum Evol. 2000 Oct;39(4):393-410.
The Iberomaurusian enigma: north African progenitor or dead end?
Irish JD.
Source
Department of Anthropology, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-7720, USA. ffjdi@uaf.edu

Abstract
Data obtained during an ongoing dental investigation of African populations address two long-standing, hotly debated questions. First, was there genetic continuity between Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and later northwest Africans (e.g., Capsians, Berbers, Guanche)? Second, were skeletally-robust Iberomaurusians and northeast African Nubians variants of the same population? Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed: (1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied.
Copyright 2000 Academic Press.

_________________________________________________
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Published online 2005 March 24.
PMCID: PMC1199377

Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link

Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1

Abstract
The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.

Because of maternal transmission and lack of recombination, the sequence differentiation of human mtDNA has been generated by only the sequential accumulation of new mutations along radiating maternal lineages. Over the course of time, this process of molecular divergence has given rise to monophyletic units that are called “haplogroups.” Because this process of molecular differentiation occurred mainly during and after the process of human colonization of and diffusion into the different continents and regions, haplogroups and subhaplogroups tend to be restricted to specific geographic areas and population groups [Wallace 1995; Achilli et al. 2004].

Only the founders of the sister superhaplogroups M and N [which includes haplogroup R] [Quintana-Murci et al. 1999] participated in the “out of Africa” exit [Cann et al. 1987; Stringer and Andrews 1988; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Underhill et al. 2000; Forster et al. 2001] and were successful in colonizing the rest of the Old World. Superhaplogroup N is globally distributed outside Africa, encompassing virtually all of the western Eurasian mtDNA variation, and embraces haplogroup U, nested in haplogroup R. Haplogroup U has an extremely broad geographic distribution that ranges from Europe and North Africa to India and Central Asia and has a very high overall frequency [15%–30%] [Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004]

To assess the nature and extent of haplogroup U variation, we initially sequenced 28 entire U mtDNAs [see authors' Web site and GenBank] from a wide range of populations. These were selected through a preliminary sequence analysis of the mtDNA control region to include the widest possible range of haplogroup U internal variation. A tree of the mtDNA sequences [fig. 1] reveals that haplogroup U first splits into two major subsets, distinguished by the mutation at nt 1811, and that there is a very large number of independent basal branches. Among these, representatives of all known subhaplogroups [U1–U9] were included. However, subhaplogroup U5 provided a rather intriguing result. A Yakut from northeastern Siberia [27 in fig. 1] and a Fulbe from Senegal [29 in fig. 1] harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions.


To investigate this striking similarity, the portion of the tree encompassing these two mtDNAs was enriched by sequencing 11 additional mtDNA sequences [22–26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 37 in fig. 1] bearing the control-region motif 16270-150, a motif found generally at low frequencies [<2%] in Berber populations and in other African groups [such as the Fulbe] known to have intermingled with Berbers [Rosa et al. 2004]. The motif also shows similarly low frequencies in virtually all European populations, except the Saami of northern Scandinavia, in which it reaches ~48% [Tambets et al 2004]. Because virtually all Saami mtDNAs with 16270-150 harbor the transitions at nts 16189 and 16144 seen in the Yakut mtDNA, three Saami mtDNAs were included among the additional samples.

Seven of the new sequences [one Berber from Algeria, two Italian, one Spanish, and three Saami] clustered into U5b1b, the subclade encompassing the Yakut and Fulbe mtDNAs. The Saami and the Yakut mtDNAs formed a minor branch distinguished only by the transition at nt 16144, the Berber and the Fulbe mtDNAs clustered in a second minor branch also characterized only by control-region mutations, and the Italian and Spanish mtDNAs formed other minor branches.

The average sequence divergence [± SE, computed as per Saillard et al. [2000]] of the 39 coding-region sequences from the root of haplogroup U was 11.4 ± 1.3 substitutions [disregarding indels and pathological mutations], a value which corresponds—according to the mutation-rate estimate of Mishmar et al. [2003]—to a coalescence time estimate of 58.8 ± 6.8 thousand years [ky] for the entire haplogroup U. This value agrees well with the corresponding estimate of 61.6 ± 12.5 ky, based on the hypervariable segment I [HVS-I] mutation rate [Forster et al. 1996], for these 39 mtDNAs. An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the “out of Africa” exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin [Richards et al. 2000]. It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.

Such a recent common ancestry of maternal lineages found in populations living as far as 9,000 miles apart and whose anthropological affinities are not at all obvious is, to say the least, unexpected. Can we provide a reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ~11 ky [Achilli et al. 2004]. Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V [Torroni et al. 2001a]—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami [together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs] [Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004]. Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.

In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.


 -

To investigate this striking similarity, the portion of the tree encompassing these two mtDNAs was enriched by sequencing 11 additional mtDNA sequences [22–26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 37 in fig. 1] bearing the control-region motif 16270-150, a motif found generally at low frequencies [<2%] in Berber populations and in other African groups [such as the Fulbe] known to have intermingled with Berbers [Rosa et al. 2004]. The motif also shows similarly low frequencies in virtually all European populations, except the Saami of northern Scandinavia, in which it reaches ~48% [Tambets et al 2004]. Because virtually all Saami mtDNAs with 16270-150 harbor the transitions at nts 16189 and 16144 seen in the Yakut mtDNA, three Saami mtDNAs were included among the additional samples.

Seven of the new sequences [one Berber from Algeria, two Italian, one Spanish, and three Saami] clustered into U5b1b, the subclade encompassing the Yakut and Fulbe mtDNAs. The Saami and the Yakut mtDNAs formed a minor branch distinguished only by the transition at nt 16144, the Berber and the Fulbe mtDNAs clustered in a second minor branch also characterized only by control-region mutations, and the Italian and Spanish mtDNAs formed other minor branches.

The average sequence divergence [± SE, computed as per Saillard et al. [2000]] of the 39 coding-region sequences from the root of haplogroup U was 11.4 ± 1.3 substitutions [disregarding indels and pathological mutations], a value which corresponds—according to the mutation-rate estimate of Mishmar et al. [2003]—to a coalescence time estimate of 58.8 ± 6.8 thousand years [ky] for the entire haplogroup U. This value agrees well with the corresponding estimate of 61.6 ± 12.5 ky, based on the hypervariable segment I [HVS-I] mutation rate [Forster et al. 1996], for these 39 mtDNAs. An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the “out of Africa” exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin [Richards et al. 2000]. It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.

Such a recent common ancestry of maternal lineages found in populations living as far as 9,000 miles apart and whose anthropological affinities are not at all obvious is, to say the least, unexpected. Can we provide a reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ~11 ky [Achilli et al. 2004]. Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V [Torroni et al. 2001a]—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami [together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs] [Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004]. Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.

In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.

Abstract
The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.

Because of maternal transmission and lack of recombination, the sequence differentiation of human mtDNA has been generated by only the sequential accumulation of new mutations along radiating maternal lineages. Over the course of time, this process of molecular divergence has given rise to monophyletic units that are called “haplogroups.” Because this process of molecular differentiation occurred mainly during and after the process of human colonization of and diffusion into the different continents and regions, haplogroups and subhaplogroups tend to be restricted to specific geographic areas and population groups [Wallace 1995; Achilli et al. 2004].

Only the founders of the sister superhaplogroups M and N [which includes haplogroup R] [Quintana-Murci et al. 1999] participated in the “out of Africa” exit [Cann et al. 1987; Stringer and Andrews 1988; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Underhill et al. 2000; Forster et al. 2001] and were successful in colonizing the rest of the Old World. Superhaplogroup N is globally distributed outside Africa, encompassing virtually all of the western Eurasian mtDNA variation, and embraces haplogroup U, nested in haplogroup R. Haplogroup U has an extremely broad geographic distribution that ranges from Europe and North Africa to India and Central Asia and has a very high overall frequency [15%–30%] [Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004]

To assess the nature and extent of haplogroup U variation, we initially sequenced 28 entire U mtDNAs [see authors' Web site and GenBank] from a wide range of populations. These were selected through a preliminary sequence analysis of the mtDNA control region to include the widest possible range of haplogroup U internal variation. A tree of the mtDNA sequences [fig. 1] reveals that haplogroup U first splits into two major subsets, distinguished by the mutation at nt 1811, and that there is a very large number of independent basal branches. Among these, representatives of all known subhaplogroups [U1–U9] were included. However, subhaplogroup U5 provided a rather intriguing result. A Yakut from northeastern Siberia [27 in fig. 1] and a Fulbe from Senegal [29 in fig. 1] harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions.


To investigate this striking similarity, the portion of the tree encompassing these two mtDNAs was enriched by sequencing 11 additional mtDNA sequences [22–26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 37 in fig. 1] bearing the control-region motif 16270-150, a motif found generally at low frequencies [<2%] in Berber populations and in other African groups [such as the Fulbe] known to have intermingled with Berbers [Rosa et al. 2004]. The motif also shows similarly low frequencies in virtually all European populations, except the Saami of northern Scandinavia, in which it reaches ~48% [Tambets et al 2004]. Because virtually all Saami mtDNAs with 16270-150 harbor the transitions at nts 16189 and 16144 seen in the Yakut mtDNA, three Saami mtDNAs were included among the additional samples.

Seven of the new sequences [one Berber from Algeria, two Italian, one Spanish, and three Saami] clustered into U5b1b, the subclade encompassing the Yakut and Fulbe mtDNAs. The Saami and the Yakut mtDNAs formed a minor branch distinguished only by the transition at nt 16144, the Berber and the Fulbe mtDNAs clustered in a second minor branch also characterized only by control-region mutations, and the Italian and Spanish mtDNAs formed other minor branches.

The average sequence divergence [± SE, computed as per Saillard et al. [2000]] of the 39 coding-region sequences from the root of haplogroup U was 11.4 ± 1.3 substitutions [disregarding indels and pathological mutations], a value which corresponds—according to the mutation-rate estimate of Mishmar et al. [2003]—to a coalescence time estimate of 58.8 ± 6.8 thousand years [ky] for the entire haplogroup U. This value agrees well with the corresponding estimate of 61.6 ± 12.5 ky, based on the hypervariable segment I [HVS-I] mutation rate [Forster et al. 1996], for these 39 mtDNAs. An age of ~60 ky indicates that haplogroup U arose very soon after the “out of Africa” exit. As for U5, its sequence divergence was 8.1 ± 1.8 substitutions, corresponding to 41.4 ± 9.2 ky, a time estimate in full agreement with its proposed proto-European origin [Richards et al. 2000]. It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.

Such a recent common ancestry of maternal lineages found in populations living as far as 9,000 miles apart and whose anthropological affinities are not at all obvious is, to say the least, unexpected. Can we provide a reasonable explanation? The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ~11 ky [Achilli et al. 2004]. Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V [Torroni et al. 2001a]—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami [together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs] [Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004]. Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.

In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I rest my case

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
sighhhhh!!!

Came from? They came from Africa, where else? Good Gad!

Male indigenous North Africans are primarily E1b1b*. Their autosomal SNP put them in Africa. Their FBI CODIS STR markers list them as "negro".

The female are U6 and H1 and L*. All African lineage. Although the jury is out on H1.

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[/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
quote by Lioness: and a Fulbe from Senegal [29 in fig. 1] harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions

several studies confirm U5 in central Africa is ancestral to what is found in Europe.....meaning?
 
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
Thanks for info.

It seems that the antropologists are agreed that the Capsians contributed the most to the Berber group. Traces of the Iberomaurusian (Mechta Afalou) were also found, but seemd to be of secondary impact, so contrary to my quote.

(by the way, Thanks for the link to the DNA tree, Lioness).
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
First off the "Berbers" are not an ancient "clan" or "lineage" that can be directly tied to any ancient African population more than 3,000 years ago because "Berber" is a language not a genetic signature, not a "race" and not a single ethnic group. There are various ethnic groups amongst the "Berbers" just as there are various ethnic groups among all populations speaking a similar language. The problem here is that anthropologists are trying to turn the "Berber" into a mono ethnic entity and then trying to fabricate an ancient history for this entity that does not exist in the way they try and pretend it does, (ie. ancient aboriginal white North Africans).

Any research that tries to tie the "berbers" to populations in Africa more than 3,000 years ago is a fraud as the Berber language is only 2-3,000 years old at best. Therefore, any populations prior to that time have no business being called "Berber". And, more importantly, the populations they are trying to tie them to are likewise separate and distinct ethnic groups with different lineages from different times and different regions. For example, the Libu or ancient Libyans were one ethnic group, the Sea People another ethnic group, the Ribu another, the Meshwesh another, along with the Tjemehu and Tjehenu. There is no evidence that any of these people spoke a "Beber" language or even a proto form of Berber language. Then came the Greeks identified more ethnic groups (which no longer exist in the same way they once did) such as the Gaetules, the Maure (moors), Massilye, lotus eaters and so forth.

It is only later, under the Phoenicians of Carthage can the first evidence of "Berber" languages be said to have been found (2,000 years ago) in the Libyco-berber script. And it is after this time that the first references to "Berbers" as a group are found, primarily in the writings of the Arabs, who identified even more ethnic groups. Which leads us to the Islamic era and the Moorish era with the various confederations of clans that were identified amongst the Berber speakers and during this time not only were there Arab incursions and mixing within these populations but you also had European incursions and mixing, most especially along the coast. And that is followed by the colonial era when new ethnic groups began to be identified like the Kabyle, the Siwa, Ouled Nail, the Tuareg and so forth. And even amongst these groups you have ethnic sub groups and clans, each with their own lineages and histories of mixture with other populations.

So how on earth can you take all these people and ethnic groups with different histories and ethnic backgrounds and try to make them into a single monolithic entity stretching back over 10,000 years? You can't. And the fact is that those trying to do so are purely speaking nonsense historical fantasy. And that is especially true for those trying to claim that the "Berbers" originate with some mythic ancient "Eurasian" population that arrived in Africa bringing Berber language and culture with them, which is not only simply false but OVERWHELMINGLY so as all the facts an evidence point to Berber languages originating in East Africa, traveling to Southern Egypt and into the Sahara from which it went to coastal North Africa. And there is no evidence for Eurasians traveling to North Africa from East Africa and the Sahara. That is just pure nonsense.


Conquered Libu (Libyan) from Ramessid era in Egypt:
 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libu

Also, keep in mind that the Iberomaurisan was strictly limited to the coastal Areas of North Africa. That does not cover ALL of North Africa during that time frame. So it is another example of how Eurocentric anthropologists focus exclusively on the extreme coasts of North Africa versus on the ENTIRE expanse of North Africa, which includes the Sahara when studying the history and population of North Africa, which shows how they try to play up any possible influence from Europe due to the proximity to the North African coast far and beyond its actual significance.

Now keep in mind that the EARLIEST BLADE INDUSTRIES ON EARTH occur in central and eastern Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago (not counting the pre human hominid evidence from millions of years ago) so how on earth can the iberomaurisan be the FIRST tool industry in North Africa?

quote:

The Aterian industry is a name given by archaeologists to a type of stone tool manufacturing dating to the Middle Stone Age (or Middle Palaeolithic). Derived from the Mousterian culture in the region around the Atlas Mountains and the northern Sahara, it refers the site of Bir el Ater, south of Annaba.

The industry was probably created by modern humans (Homo sapiens), albeit of an early type, as shown by the few skeletal remains known so far from sites on the Moroccan Atlantic coast extending to Egypt.

Bifacially-worked, leaf-shaped and tanged projectile points are a common artefact type and so are racloirs and Levallois flakes. Items of personal adornment (pierced and ochred Nassarius shell beads) are known from at least one Aterian site, with an age of 82,000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aterian

quote:

The earliest blade industries in North Africa are called Ibero-Maurusian or Oranian (after a site near Oran). The industry appears to have spread throughout the coastal regions of North Africa between 15,000 and 10,000 BCE. Between about 9000 and 5000 BCE, the Capsian culture made its appearance showing signs to belong to the Neolithic and began influencing the IberoMaurusian, and after about 3000 BCE the remains of just one human culture can be found throughout the former region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_North_Africa

All of this shows that Europeans extend their Eurocentric framework into prehistory by trying to pretend that working stone tools somehow originated in Europe and the Mediterranean and not Africa considering that ALL of the hominid species originated in Africa.

But according to their terminologies you wouldn't know that. And the main reason is because they haven't really done any serious excavations in Africa, especially in the Nile Valley and East Africa to determine the age of stone tools in Africa.

Note the following: (keep in mind the only reason they know about the stone tools in South Africa is because of the white colonies there and the mining they have been doing.)
Blade production 500 thousand years ago at Kathu Pan 1, South Africa: support for a multiple origins hypothesis for early Middle Pleistocene blade technologiehttp://www.academia.edu/1510048/Blade_production_500_thousand_years_ago_at_Kathu_Pan_1_South_Africa_support_for_a_multiple_origins_hypothesis_for_early_Middle_Pleistocene_blade_tec hnologies

quote:

Not long ago, researchers thought that blades were so hard to make that they had to be the handiwork of modern humans, who had evolved the mental wherewithal to systematically strike a cobble in the right way to produce blades and not just crude stone flakes. First, they were thought to be a hallmark of the late Stone Age, which began 40,000 years ago. Later, blades were thought to have emerged in the Middle Stone Age, which began about 200,000 years ago when modern humans arose in Africa and invented a new industry of more sophisticated stone tools. But this view has been challenged in recent years as researchers discovered blades that dated to 380,000 years in the Middle East and to almost 300,000 years ago in Europe, where Neandertals may have made them (ScienceNOW, 1 December 2008).

Now it appears that more than 500,000 years ago, human ancestors living in the Baringo Basin of Kenya collected lava stone cobbles from a riverbed and hammered them in just the right way to produce stone blades. Paleoanthropologists Cara Roure Johnson and Sally McBrearty of the University of Connecticut, Storrs, recently discovered the blades at five sites in the region, including two that date to between 509,000 and 543,000 years ago. "This is the oldest known occurrence of blades," Johnson reported Wednesday here at the annual meeting of the Paleoanthropology Society.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2009/04/02-02.html
 
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
Doug M,

Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic.
Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identic. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".

I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
Doug M,

Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic.
Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identic. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".

I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.

Since there were no Berber speakers during the Capsian period, what you are saying makes no sense.

Who were the first populations to have spoken berber languages and where did those populations originate? That is the ONLY issue I am referring to. People are just randomly lumping any and all populations from any time period together as "Berber" even though the name is a reference to a LANGUAGE that is only about 2,500 years old. And the evidence for that origin lies in the Sahara which is a long way from the homelands of the Capsian culture. So again, I have a problem with folks making up a monolithic entity called "Berber" and trying to tie it to ancient assemblages of different ethnic groups as if they were all of the same ethnic background or not. This has absolutely nothing to do with a Eurasian/African basis for these populations, as opposed to the nonsense that a language spoken by populations with different ethnic backgrounds suddenly can be lumped together as some homogenous entity when they are not. There is no SINGLE ethnic group among the "Berbers". Berbers are a mixed ethnic group, some having more Eurasian genes and others being more Arab mixed, with the predominant lineage and population being purely black African. Trying to pretend that these are all one single ethnic group is NONSENSE.

So again, to get back to the point, what is the earliest unequivocal evidence of Berber languages and where is it found and among what populations?

My point is that the answer to that will show that it THOSE populations who were the first to speak Berber languages along with those speaking proto-berber languages had LITTLE to do with the Capsian culture.

Not to mention that most of those lineages died out anyway and the lineages found in most Berbers are YOUNGER than the Capsian. M81 is not a "Capsian" marker. Now if you can show me how it is, then you will be making some sense. But you can't which is why I am calling you on it.

Here is where M81 originates:
 -

Therefore, on any level this is pure nonsense.

Berber languages, just like the original North Africans all originate in East Africa. Therefore, trying to pretend that some stone age culture in ancient Northern Africa can be exclusively tied to Berber languages as a monolithic ethnic group is NON SENSE.

quote:

Proto-Berber shows features which clearly distinguish it from all other branches of Afroasiatic, but modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 10000~9000 BP, according to grottochronological studies,[2] Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3000 BP. Louali & Philippson (2003) propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) stage around 7000 BP and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) stage as the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages.[3]

In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels;[4] (in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.[5])

The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pasturalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber


Note that even here it is mentioned that Tifinagh and Tamashek as Tuareg Berber languages are considered the OLDEST or most archaic variants of the Berber languages. The Tuareg are tied to ethnic groups in East Africa.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
Doug M,

Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic.
Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identic. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".

I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.

If Mazigh, who is a delusional Turk mulatto, is against it, then I just had to check it out.

This is from Wiki:

Capsian culture.

The Capsian culture (named after the town of Gafsa in Tunisia) was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily. It is traditionally divided into two horizons, the Capsien typique (Typical Capsian) and the Capsien supérieur (Upper Capsian) which are sometimes found in chronostratigraphic sequence. They represent variants of one tradition, the differences between them being both typological and technological.

During this period, the environment of the Maghreb was open savanna, much like modern East Africa, with Mediterranean forests at higher altitudes. The Capsian diet included a wide variety of animals, ranging from aurochs and hartebeest to hares and snails; there is little evidence concerning plants eaten. During the succeeding Neolithic of Capsian Tradition, there is evidence from one site, for domesticated, probably imported, ovicaprids.

Anatomically, Capsian populations were modern Homo sapiens, traditionally classed into two "racial" types: Proto-Mediterranean and Mechta-Afalou on the basis of cranial morphology. Some have argued that they were immigrants from the east, whereas others argue for population continuity based on physical skeletal characteristics and other criteria.


Meyers Blitz-Lexikon (Leipzig, 1932) shows a Corsican man as an example of the Mediterranean type.

 -


Mechta-Afalou

Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa. Mechtoids inhabited Northern Africa during late Paleolithic and Mesolithic (Ibero-Maurusian archaeological culture).

Mechtoids were assimilated during Neolithic and early Bronze Age by bearers of Afrasian languages. The Capsian culture, from the anthropological standpoint, is considered an indigenous development.


They offer this statue of Bencomo, the ruler of Guanches, at Tenerife for the Mechta-Afalou.

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Now then, is there anyone who can argue with me that Albinos and their mulattoes are not delusional liars?

Okay, some may want to claim that they are insane, but I think they know what they are doing.

 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
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.

They look pretty much the same as these Nubian (Sudan) skulls. How about it Mazigh, do you think your people were from Nubia too?

He,he,he:

No man, your people are from Central Asia. There are lots of skeletons of your people there, and you are quite welcome to them. Soon Africans will sent you back to them.



 -  -
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
First off the "Berbers" are not an ancient "clan" or "lineage" that can be directly tied to any ancient African population more than 3,000 years ago because "Berber" is a language not a genetic signature, not a "race" and not a single ethnic group. There are various ethnic groups amongst the "Berbers" just as there are various ethnic groups among all populations speaking a similar language. The problem here is that anthropologists are trying to turn the "Berber" into a mono ethnic entity and then trying to fabricate an ancient history for this entity that does not exist in the way they try and pretend it does, (ie. ancient aboriginal white North Africans).

Any research that tries to tie the "berbers" to populations in Africa more than 3,000 years ago is a fraud as the Berber language is only 2-3,000 years old at best.

There are no Libyco-Berber inscription 2-3ky old written in a Berber language. These incriptions are written in the Mande language.

.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Ancient African Writing systems including Libyco-Berber/Mande

http://www.taneter.org/writing.html


Libyco-Berber Examples of writing


http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Esempi&id=47&lang=en&PHPSESSID=fpxoeogttmuhz
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Doug is right that "berber" is not one ancestry but multiple ancestries of a culture and language,

However people who are primarily hg M81 could be spoken about.
Some Tunisians are as high as 90-100%.
M81 is considered unique to North Africa and set apart from Sub Saharan populations and European populations (except the Saami)

It's interesting the connection with the Nordic aboriginal Saami people (aka pejorative Lapps) They live in parts of far northern Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Kola Peninsula of Russia, and the border area between south and middle Sweden and Norway.
According to xyyman teachings the Saami would be considered light skinned Negroes of the North. (LSNN)
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007496;p=1

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
 -


Sources:

The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908
-G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones

Crania Ægyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography
-Samuel George Morton


^^^ Mike what do you make of this?
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Ha,ha,ha:
I was looking for an article about Black physical diversity to give you, so I wouldn't have to bother, but there was none. Imagine that, 2013 and you Albinos still can't accept that there is NOTHING unique about you - you are merely Albinos, thus you must share phenotypes with your normal relatives. As a result of your inability to accept reality, you still persist in this nonsense about only Albinos having straight hair. Cass has a mental defect, what's your excuse?

Anyway, please save this post so that I won't be bothered by your inane Albino stupidity again.


BLACKS WITH STRAIGHT OR WAVY HAIR:

I'm starting off with this one, just to remind you of where your "Blonde" hair comes from!

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.

I reached the posting limit, but I'm sure that these will do:

So then, please explain why you have such a hard time accepting the reality that your histories and most of you racial pronouncements are lies.

 
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
I think that the remaining Afrocentrists here are too fool to begin with [Big Grin] My excuses.

@The lioness, Don't tell me that the Berbers have multiple ancestors, I said it as first. But you suggest it is a special case of the Berbers. There are no people with one ancestor. But it goes on the principal predator.

I think i should try with the Eurocentrits, I hope they're wiser, and not obsessed with images.

But generally, I do respect the Afrocentrits, and I hope they advance in their cause, but with more logic and sense. Because, they -like as they are now- are hopeless.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^BTW - On the issue of straight hair:

Have you noticed that almost EVERY creature, both great and small: from the disgusting MOLE:

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To the Brown bear:


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living at the Equator or the Arctic, THEY ALL HAVE STRAIGHT HAIR!


Of course they are not so pathetic as some Albino humans.




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The lone exception being "SOME" Africans:

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.

Is it not logical then to assume that because these people have NOTHING in common with the LOWER ORDER Animals, that THEY are the highest form of Human EVOLUTION?
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I think that the remaining Afrocentrists here are too fool to begin with [Big Grin] My excuses.

@The lioness, Don't tell me that the Berbers have multiple ancestors, I said it as first. But you suggest it is a special case of the Berbers. There are no people with one ancestor. But it goes on the principal predator.

I think i should try with the Eurocentrits, I hope they're wiser, and not obsessed with images.

But generally, I do respect the Afrocentrits, and I hope they advance in their cause, but with more logic and sense. Because, they -like as they are now- are hopeless.

Mazigh - Name calling is fine, I myself do it out of disgust.

But did you notice that I substantiate what I say?

I certainly noticed that you could not - substantiate what you say.
 
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
 
My dear friend Mike,
It is how you view it. I came here to ask a question, not to begin a race war. Wether it was black or white, that is the least interesting to me. So, it has no sense to give arguments on things I didn't want to speak about. Supposing you are right, what did then I learn by knowing that some people were black or white? It makes only sense when the aimed answer is limited to color. I can understand this, but it doesn't attrack me.

I know there are also Nazi's, and that causes a vicious circle between afrocentrists and whitecentrists. But at least, it may not be an absession to draw it with you anywhere and anytime.
Best regards
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:


BLACKS WITH STRAIGHT OR WAVY HAIR:


 -



 -

 -

^^^^ Mike, I found these two Blacks who are
as Black or Blacker than your Chinese Black please add to your straight haired Blacks list.

Thanks, lioness,
keep it Black
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
My dear friend Mike,
It is how you view it. I came here to ask a question, not to begin a race war. Wether it was black or white, that is the least interesting to me. So, it has no sense to give arguments on things I didn't want to speak about. Supposing you are right, what did then I learn by knowing that some people were black or white? It makes only sense when the aimed answer is limited to color. I can understand this, but it doesn't attrack me.

I know there are also Nazi's, and that causes a vicious circle between afrocentrists and whitecentrists. But at least, it may not be an absession to draw it with you anywhere and anytime.
Best regards

Mazigh - That sounds very humane and agreeable, but unfortunately the tangible reality is quite different.

I do not post pictures like this as an exercise, I post them to educate ignorant Negroes, who are moved by words like yours.

It is my hope that eventually they will start to realize what these pictures actually mean.


Egypt's parliament.


 -


 -
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Comedian now? Haven't done much research on Saami...my understanding is they are admixed Asians/Europeans. Although I did read their U5 is dissimilar to other modern Europeans

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

According to xyyman teachings the Saami would be considered light skinned Negroes of the North. (LSNN)


 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
deleted
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Comedian now? Haven't done much research on Saami...my understanding is they are admixed Asians/Europeans. Although I did read their U5 is dissimilar to other modern Europeans

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

According to xyyman teachings the Saami would be considered light skinned Negroes of the North. (LSNN)


read 20th post from top of page
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I read from SEVERAL sources before making up my mind. I read..the 20th post about ...3 years ago. Johnny come lately...


My electronic library ...and...paper ...is extensive.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I read from SEVERAL sources before making up my mind. I read..the 20th post about ...3 years ago. Johnny come lately...


My electronic library ...and...paper ...is extensive.

and where has that gotten you?
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
I'm starting to have my doubts that people of the Maghreb origins are Africans.

"North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data (730,000 sites) from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago (approximately 1,200 ya); a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago (approximately 750 ya). Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa."
Source:
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002397
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
That paper was discussed months ago in your thread:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008301;p=1

What is making you have second thoughts now?
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I'm starting to have my doubts that people of the Maghreb origins are Africans.

He,he,he:

This is a good one:

The Maghreb is loosely defined as North Africa west of Egypt.

So you're saying that you doubt that the people who are indigenous to Africa are Africans.

Oh ya, you're a real bright boy.
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
That paper was discussed months ago in your thread:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008301;p=1

What is making you have second thoughts now?

I didn't see it and my thread appeared to be messed up for some reason.

I am having second thoughts because the ancestry for Northwest Africans seems more Eurasian from what I've seen.
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Just search for it by pressing CTRL+F and type in: Henn. Yeah, you're right about the order of posts; they're rearranged. This isn't the first time I've seen this unfortunately. **Sigh**.
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
^^^I didn't personally feel it was discussed in depth.
 
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
^^^I didn't personally feel it was discussed in depth.

Perhaps not. I'm sorry, I can't remember any other threads at the moment where this was discussed. If you want to learn more, google '' site:egyptsearch.com henn et al'' (without the quote symbols) for more ES pages where this paper was discussed.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Long Egyyptsearch Egyptology forum thread on the article


Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008327
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations - Brenna M. Henn

Well yes, or rather Duh.

I am trying to understand why a genetic survey would be used to illuminate and transcribe to text, a history that is already well illuminated in text.

the only reason that I can think of is to obfuscate already well documented history, so that people like Son of Ra would have an opening for this bit of revisionist nonsense Albino and Mulatto logic.

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I'm starting to have my doubts that people of the Maghreb origins are Africans.




In answer to Son of Ra, I give this already well documented history of North Africa.

As always, the Albinos and their mulattoes - who control this information - have been careful to purge all references to the race of North Africans in the translations that they give us, except for this slip-up with "Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. 550 CE" Quote: beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

As can clearly be seen, that was not really a slip-up, it needed to be said so that they could introduce the lie that THESE (see below) Albinos and their mulattoes are indigenous to North Africa.

 -


So then, the following explains how those Albinos and mulattoes above, came to be in North Africa.


Phoenicians

Phoenician traders arrived on the North African coast around 900 B.C. and established Carthage (in present-day Tunisia) around 800 B.C. By the sixth century B.C, a Phoenician presence existed at Tipasa (east of Cherchell in Algeria). From their principal center of power at Carthage, the Carthaginians expanded and established small settlements (called emporia in Greek) along the North African coast; these settlements eventually served as market towns as well as anchorages. Hippo Regius (modern Annaba) and Rusicade (modern Skikda) are among the towns of Carthaginian origin on the coast of present-day Algeria.

Romans

In the spring of 146 A.D. Roman General Scipio Aemilianus sacked Carthage, and burnt it to the ground. Rome decreed that no house should be built nor crop planted there. But a hundred years later, the city was re-founded by Julius Caesar in 44 B.C, and became the capital of the enlarged province of Africa.


589-570 B.C. - a combination of Phoenicians and Minyae/Minyans (Black Greeks) establish the city of Cyrene in Libya.

Persians

In 525 B.C. the Persian army of Cambyses (son of Cyrus the Great), fresh from the conquest of Egypt, overran Cyrenaica, which for the next two centuries remained under Persian or Egyptian rule. After Alexander the Great had conquered Persia and taken it territories, he was greeted warmly by the Greeks when he entered Cyrenaica in 331 B.C. When Alexander died in 323 B.C, his empire was divided among his Macedonian generals. Egypt, with Cyrene, went to Ptolemy, a general under Alexander who took over his African and Syrian possessions.


Hebrews

During the destruction of Israel, the Romans expelled many Hebrews to Libya and other North African points.


The Vandals

The Vandals were an Germanic tribe from Asia, that entered the late Roman Empire during the 5th century, perhaps best known for their sack of Rome in 455. Although they were not notably more destructive than other invaders of ancient times, Renaissance and Early Modern writers who idealized Rome tended to blame the Vandals for its destruction. According to Procopius, the Vandals came to Africa at the request of Bonifacius, the military ruler of the region. However, it has been suggested that the Vandals migrated to Africa in search of safety; they had been attacked by a Roman army in 422 and had failed to seal a treaty with them. Led by their king, Gaiseric, some 80,000 Vandals, crossed into Africa from Spain in 429. Advancing eastwards along the coast, the Vandals lay siege to Hippo Regius in 430.


The Alans

The Alans or Alani were a group of White Asian tribes of nomadic pastoralists of the 1st millennium A.D. They spoke a Scytho-Sarmatian language. In 418 (or 426) the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths in Iberia (Spain), and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans then dissolved. Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").


The Visigoths

The Visigoths (western Goths); were an Asian Albino people, and are the ancestors of the modern Spanish and Portugese. They were one of two main branches of the Goths, the Ostrogoths being the other. Together these tribes were among the Germanic peoples from Central Asia who spread through the late Roman Empire during the Migration Period. The Romanized Visigoths first emerged as a distinct people during the 4th century, initially in the Balkans, where they participated in several wars with Rome. A Visigothic army under Alaric I eventually moved into Italy and famously sacked Rome in 410.

Eventually the Visigoths were settled in southern Gaul as foederati of the Romans, the reasons for which is still a subject for debate among scholars. They soon fell out with their hosts and established their own kingdom with its capital at Toulouse. They then slowly extended their authority into Hispania, displacing the Vandals and Alans. Their rule in Gaul was cut short at the Battle of Vouillé in 507 when they were defeated by the Franks under Clovis I. Thereafter the only territory north of the Pyrenees that the Visigoths held was Septimania, such that their kingdom became limited to Hispania. In 711 or 712 the Visigoths, were defeated in the Battle of Guadalete by a force of invading Arabs and Berbers (the Moors).

Islam

With the coming of Islam, which was "First" spread by Arabs, all North Africans became Arabized in names, just as the Turks had before them. It was during the rule of Abbasid caliph Harun ar-Rashid, that the caliphs began assigning Egypt to Arabized Turks rather than to Arabs. The first Turkish dynasty in Egypt was that of Ibn Tulun who entered Egypt in 868 A.D. The last Black Arab caliph was Abbasid al-Qa'im (reigned 1031–75) he was deposed by the Seljuq Turk Sultan Toghril Beg, after which time, unto today, the realm of Islam was actually controlled by Turks, NOT ARABS! This was reinforced with the coming to North Africa of the Ottoman Turks.


Privateers

Privateering was an age-old practice in the Mediterranean. North African rulers engaged in it increasingly in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century because it was so lucrative, and because their merchant vessels, formerly a major source of income, were not permitted to enter European ports.


These Pirates destroyed thousands of French, Spanish, Italian and British ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.


LIBYA COLONY OF ITALY

In September 1911 Italy engineered a crisis with Turkey charging that the Turks had committed a "hostile act" by arming Arab tribesmen in Libya. When Turkey refused to respond to an ultimatum calling for Italian military occupation to protect Italian interests in the region, Italy declared war. After a preliminary naval bombardment, Italian troops landed and captured Tripoli on October 3.


FRANCE IN ALGERIA - 1830-1962

Using Napoleon's 1808 contingency plan for the invasion of Algeria, 34,000 French soldiers landed twenty-seven kilometers west of Algiers, at Sidi Ferruch, on June 12, 1830. To face the French, the dey sent 7,000 janissaries, 19,000 troops from the beys of Constantine and Oran, and about 17,000 Kabyles. The French established a strong beachhead and pushed toward Algiers, thanks in part to superior artillery and better organization. Algiers was captured after a three-week campaign, and Hussein Dey fled into exile.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As can clearly be seen, there is no mystery as to why we find Albino Central Asian/European, and Levantine genes in North Africa. So as I said to begin, what legitimate purpose could there be for this study? Considering the cost, this could only be a Albino/mulatto attempt to revise history.
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
LOL! White folks want to pretend north Africa was always white and that blacks were NEVER there or if they were there were there long before 10,000 years ago and then got replaced. And this is for 2 reasons. 1) To claim ancient Egypt as non black African 2) To pretend that blacks from Africa did not cross the Mediterranean and settle Europe. By having this "buffer" population in place they get to make up all sorts of nonsense about how black Africans in Africa have been magically isolated from world history, but white Eurasians magigally were able to walk all over the planet and be in every culture and civlization, even long before there was a white person on the planet. Talking about "white" folks before 12,000 years ago doesn't make much sense, and it CERTAINLY doesn't make sense that these white folks were the first to settle north Africa 20,000 years ago.

And this is precisely why the time frame for the so called "back to Africa" migration supposedly occurred in Henn's study 12,000 years ago:
quote:

We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity.

At face value what this is saying is that the entire population of North Africa was replaced by non Africans 12,000 years ago, introducing the "Berber" populations into North Africa and becoming the basis of "Berber" genes in North Africa. But here is the problem with that line of reasoning. First, there were no BERBER languages 12,000 years ago in North Africa or anywhere else and most of the "lineages" they claim are 12,000 year old NON African lineages are actually African.....

Therefore, it is simply B.S., especially since those groups that they try to pretend only recently got to North Africa are populations very far away from North Africa, like Kenya. So what about the blacks in Niger, Mauritania, Chad and Sudan and not to mention those in the South of Libya, Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia or those who have always been in the Sahara. Surely they don't suggest these people only recently got there 1,400 years ago? Again, as has been said over and over again, these fool ass clowns keep trying to pretend that populations along the coast and most susceptible to foreign mixture are representative of ALL of North Africa and that "Berbers" are a "race" defined by certain genes from OUTSIDE of Africa as opposed to a LANGUAGE that originates IN AFRICA, specifically East Africa.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -

^^^^ These are the regions included in the Henn study.
The vast majority of the populaltion have been in the coastal regions. The indigenous populations in these regions have been replaced. However after a few thosuands years whoever is there is consiered indigenous. Example, the American Indians are considered indigenous. yet they are also considered to have migrated to the Americas from Eurasia

_______________________________________________________

 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
LOL! White folks want to pretend north Africa was always white and that blacks were NEVER there or if they were there were there long before 10,000 years ago and then got replaced. And this is for 2 reasons. 1) To claim ancient Egypt as non black African 2) To pretend that blacks from Africa did not cross the Mediterranean and settle Europe. By having this "buffer" population in place they get to make up all sorts of nonsense about how black Africans in Africa have been magically isolated from world history, but white Eurasians magigally were able to walk all over the planet and be in every culture and civlization, even long before there was a white person on the planet. Talking about "white" folks before 12,000 years ago doesn't make much sense, and it CERTAINLY doesn't make sense that these white folks were the first to settle north Africa 20,000 years ago.

And this is precisely why the time frame for the so called "back to Africa" migration supposedly occurred in Henn's study 12,000 years ago:
quote:

We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity.

At face value what this is saying is that the entire population of North Africa was replaced by non Africans 12,000 years ago, introducing the "Berber" populations into North Africa and becoming the basis of "Berber" genes in North Africa. But here is the problem with that line of reasoning. First, there were no BERBER languages 12,000 years ago in North Africa or anywhere else and most of the "lineages" they claim are 12,000 year old NON African lineages are actually African.....

Therefore, it is simply B.S., especially since those groups that they try to pretend only recently got to North Africa are populations very far away from North Africa, like Kenya. So what about the blacks in Niger, Mauritania, Chad and Sudan and not to mention those in the South of Libya, Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia or those who have always been in the Sahara. Surely they don't suggest these people only recently got there 1,400 years ago? Again, as has been said over and over again, these fool ass clowns keep trying to pretend that populations along the coast and most susceptible to foreign mixture are representative of ALL of North Africa and that "Berbers" are a "race" defined by certain genes from OUTSIDE of Africa as opposed to a LANGUAGE that originates IN AFRICA, specifically East Africa.

And also note that the rock art of the Sahara is about the same age as those so-called "Eurasian" lineages in North Africa and all of those were created by BLACK AFRICANS during the last wet phase of the Sahara. So are they claiming these people only just got there 10,000 years ago? And most certainly those populations weren't replaced because the primary populations of the Sahara have been and still are black people.

The Sahara is North Africa.

In fact many of these paintings also cover the period called Capsian and represent what populations were present at the time and none of them can be suggested to be portrayals of "Eurasians".

quote:
The cave paintings found at Tassili n'Ajjer, north of Tamanrasset, Algeria, and at other locations depict vibrant and vivid scenes of everyday life in the central North Africa between about 8000 BCE and 4000 BCE, in the Mesolithic (Middle Stone) age. They were executed by a hunting people in the Capsian period of the Neolithic age (3000 -1900 BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saharan_rock_art
 
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations - Brenna M. Henn

Well yes, or rather Duh.

I am trying to understand why a genetic survey would be used to illuminate and transcribe to text, a history that is already well illuminated in text.

the only reason that I can think of is to obfuscate already well documented history, so that people like Son of Ra would have an opening for this bit of revisionist nonsense Albino and Mulatto logic.

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I'm starting to have my doubts that people of the Maghreb origins are Africans.




In answer to Son of Ra, I give this already well documented history of North Africa.

As always, the Albinos and their mulattoes - who control this information - have been careful to purge all references to the race of North Africans in the translations that they give us, except for this slip-up with "Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. 550 CE" Quote: beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

As can clearly be seen, that was not really a slip-up, it needed to be said so that they could introduce the lie that THESE (see below) Albinos and their mulattoes are indigenous to North Africa.

 -


So then, the following explains how those Albinos and mulattoes above, came to be in North Africa.


Phoenicians

Phoenician traders arrived on the North African coast around 900 B.C. and established Carthage (in present-day Tunisia) around 800 B.C. By the sixth century B.C, a Phoenician presence existed at Tipasa (east of Cherchell in Algeria). From their principal center of power at Carthage, the Carthaginians expanded and established small settlements (called emporia in Greek) along the North African coast; these settlements eventually served as market towns as well as anchorages. Hippo Regius (modern Annaba) and Rusicade (modern Skikda) are among the towns of Carthaginian origin on the coast of present-day Algeria.

Romans

In the spring of 146 A.D. Roman General Scipio Aemilianus sacked Carthage, and burnt it to the ground. Rome decreed that no house should be built nor crop planted there. But a hundred years later, the city was re-founded by Julius Caesar in 44 B.C, and became the capital of the enlarged province of Africa.


589-570 B.C. - a combination of Phoenicians and Minyae/Minyans (Black Greeks) establish the city of Cyrene in Libya.

Persians

In 525 B.C. the Persian army of Cambyses (son of Cyrus the Great), fresh from the conquest of Egypt, overran Cyrenaica, which for the next two centuries remained under Persian or Egyptian rule. After Alexander the Great had conquered Persia and taken it territories, he was greeted warmly by the Greeks when he entered Cyrenaica in 331 B.C. When Alexander died in 323 B.C, his empire was divided among his Macedonian generals. Egypt, with Cyrene, went to Ptolemy, a general under Alexander who took over his African and Syrian possessions.


Hebrews

During the destruction of Israel, the Romans expelled many Hebrews to Libya and other North African points.


The Vandals

The Vandals were an Germanic tribe from Asia, that entered the late Roman Empire during the 5th century, perhaps best known for their sack of Rome in 455. Although they were not notably more destructive than other invaders of ancient times, Renaissance and Early Modern writers who idealized Rome tended to blame the Vandals for its destruction. According to Procopius, the Vandals came to Africa at the request of Bonifacius, the military ruler of the region. However, it has been suggested that the Vandals migrated to Africa in search of safety; they had been attacked by a Roman army in 422 and had failed to seal a treaty with them. Led by their king, Gaiseric, some 80,000 Vandals, crossed into Africa from Spain in 429. Advancing eastwards along the coast, the Vandals lay siege to Hippo Regius in 430.


The Alans

The Alans or Alani were a group of White Asian tribes of nomadic pastoralists of the 1st millennium A.D. They spoke a Scytho-Sarmatian language. In 418 (or 426) the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths in Iberia (Spain), and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans then dissolved. Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").


The Visigoths

The Visigoths (western Goths); were an Asian Albino people, and are the ancestors of the modern Spanish and Portugese. They were one of two main branches of the Goths, the Ostrogoths being the other. Together these tribes were among the Germanic peoples from Central Asia who spread through the late Roman Empire during the Migration Period. The Romanized Visigoths first emerged as a distinct people during the 4th century, initially in the Balkans, where they participated in several wars with Rome. A Visigothic army under Alaric I eventually moved into Italy and famously sacked Rome in 410.

Eventually the Visigoths were settled in southern Gaul as foederati of the Romans, the reasons for which is still a subject for debate among scholars. They soon fell out with their hosts and established their own kingdom with its capital at Toulouse. They then slowly extended their authority into Hispania, displacing the Vandals and Alans. Their rule in Gaul was cut short at the Battle of Vouillé in 507 when they were defeated by the Franks under Clovis I. Thereafter the only territory north of the Pyrenees that the Visigoths held was Septimania, such that their kingdom became limited to Hispania. In 711 or 712 the Visigoths, were defeated in the Battle of Guadalete by a force of invading Arabs and Berbers (the Moors).

Islam

With the coming of Islam, which was "First" spread by Arabs, all North Africans became Arabized in names, just as the Turks had before them. It was during the rule of Abbasid caliph Harun ar-Rashid, that the caliphs began assigning Egypt to Arabized Turks rather than to Arabs. The first Turkish dynasty in Egypt was that of Ibn Tulun who entered Egypt in 868 A.D. The last Black Arab caliph was Abbasid al-Qa'im (reigned 1031–75) he was deposed by the Seljuq Turk Sultan Toghril Beg, after which time, unto today, the realm of Islam was actually controlled by Turks, NOT ARABS! This was reinforced with the coming to North Africa of the Ottoman Turks.


Privateers

Privateering was an age-old practice in the Mediterranean. North African rulers engaged in it increasingly in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century because it was so lucrative, and because their merchant vessels, formerly a major source of income, were not permitted to enter European ports.


These Pirates destroyed thousands of French, Spanish, Italian and British ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.


LIBYA COLONY OF ITALY

In September 1911 Italy engineered a crisis with Turkey charging that the Turks had committed a "hostile act" by arming Arab tribesmen in Libya. When Turkey refused to respond to an ultimatum calling for Italian military occupation to protect Italian interests in the region, Italy declared war. After a preliminary naval bombardment, Italian troops landed and captured Tripoli on October 3.


FRANCE IN ALGERIA - 1830-1962

Using Napoleon's 1808 contingency plan for the invasion of Algeria, 34,000 French soldiers landed twenty-seven kilometers west of Algiers, at Sidi Ferruch, on June 12, 1830. To face the French, the dey sent 7,000 janissaries, 19,000 troops from the beys of Constantine and Oran, and about 17,000 Kabyles. The French established a strong beachhead and pushed toward Algiers, thanks in part to superior artillery and better organization. Algiers was captured after a three-week campaign, and Hussein Dey fled into exile.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As can clearly be seen, there is no mystery as to why we find Albino Central Asian/European, and Levantine genes in North Africa. So as I said to begin, what legitimate purpose could there be for this study? Considering the cost, this could only be a Albino/mulatto attempt to revise history.

Interesting post man.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:


quote:
The cave paintings found at Tassili n'Ajjer, north of Tamanrasset, Algeria, and at other locations depict vibrant and vivid scenes of everyday life in the central North Africa between about 8000 BCE and 4000 BCE, in the Mesolithic (Middle Stone) age. They were executed by a hunting people in the Capsian period of the Neolithic age (3000 -1900 BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saharan_rock_art [/QB]
Wrong Saharan Rock art is oler the oldest periods 5000-8000 years ago, the latest 1,200 years ago
That means it lasted at least 3800 years. There paintings are divided up into sub periods and can be distinguished by things like the appearce of bovine animals , camels and horses which were intoduced at deiffernt times.
Some paintings seem to have figures with steatopygia although this is more associated with the Khosians on the other end of the continent


The Capsian period is from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE.

Anatomically, Capsian populations were modern Homo sapiens, traditionally classed into two "racial" types: Proto-Mediterranean and Mechta-Afalou on the basis of cranial morphology. Some have argued that they were immigrants from the east, whereas others argue for population continuity based on physical skeletal characteristics and other criteria, et cetera.


Given its widespread occurrence in the Sahara, the Capsian culture is identified by some historical linguists as a possible ancestor of the speakers of modern Afroasiatic languages of North Africa which includes the Berber languages in North Africa.

Whatever the origin of Capsian culture is is ends 6000 BC.
Listen up- then what the Mahgreb cultures between 6000 BC and 800 BC when the Phoenicians and Greeks came in?

That's a gap of 5,200 years

Algeria has the major Saharan rock art site in Tassili n'Ajjer, in Southern Central Algeria.
The location was more hospitable in the Sahara green period


Ninety-one percent of the Algerian population lives along the Mediterranean coast on 12% of the country's total land mass. Forty-five percent of the population is urban, and urbanization continues, despite government efforts to discourage migration to the cities. Currently, 24,182,736 Algerians live in urban area, about 1.5 million nomads live in the Saharan area.

99% of the population is classified ethnically as Arab-Berber and religiously as Sunni Muslim 96%, the few non-Sunni Muslims are mainly Ibadis 1.3% from the M'Zab valley.
The Haplogroup J, common marker in Middle-Eastern population is found at near 30% in Algeria, which is one of the most common haplogroup of the country along with E1b1b .

Recent studies on the common J1 Y chromosome suggest it arrived over ten thousand years ago in North Africa, and M81/E3b2 is a Y chromosome specific to North African ancestry, dating to the Neolithic. A thorough study by Arredi et al. (2004) which analyzed populations from Algeria concludes that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E3b2 and J haplogroups is largely of Neolithic origin, which suggests that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East. This Neolithic origin was later confirmed by Myles et al. (2005) which suggest that "contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East"
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Lioness - Stop the Albino nonsense of acting like chronological moments in time can be detected or isolated by genetics.

First of all, there is no way to tell when a particular mutation was created.

Second of all, there is no way to tell what the physical manifestation of a particular mutation looks like, so you can't even tell if it's environment related.

Thirdly, there is no way to isolate individual humans by phenotype as related to genotype.

All in all, this genetics thing is only good for disease studies, and giving Albinos opportunities for historical bullsh1t.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Speaking of giving Albinos opportunities for historical bullsh1t.

According to the Wiki, after the Romans destroyed the second temple and exiled the Hebrews from Jerusalem; about two thirds of the Hebrew population ended up in North Africa - circa 400 A.D.

Circa 700 A.D. the Turkish Khazars converted to Judaism.

When the Turks took control of North Africa from the Arabs, Khazars likely soon followed.

In 711 A.D. A Berber army led by general Tariq ibn Ziyad, invaded Iberia (Spain) and overthrew the White Visigoths (Western Goths): Who were one of two main branches of the Goths, an east Germanic tribe, who over the period of only one hundred years, had migrated from eastern Europe, thru Greece, thru Italy, and finally down into the Iberian peninsula.

Question:

Which Jews, Hebrews or Khazars, followed the Berbers to Spain?


These people are Afars in Ethopia, is the hairstyle of these children a coincidence?


 -
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ this is why we need genetics

To prevent Mike from endless picture spammings and fantasy


The most ancient communities of African Jews known to the Western world are the Ethiopian, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews of North and Middle Africa.

Largely unknown in the West until quite recently are communities of the African Jews such as the Lemba (located in present-day Malawi, Zimbabwe, and northern South Africa). Some among the Igbo of Nigeria, the Annang/Efik/Ibibio of Akwa Ibom State and Cross River State of Nigeria, Cameroon, and Equatorial Guinea) claim descent from East Africa and Jews in Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya and Egypt, which were trading partners from ancient times.

In the seventh century, many Spanish Jews fled persecution under the Visigoths to North Africa, where they made their homes in the Byzantine-dominated cities along the Mediterranean coast. Some, however, moved further inland and proselytized among the Berber tribes. A number of tribes, including the Jarawa, Uled Jari, and some tribes of the Daggatun people, may have converted to Judaism.Ibn Khaldun reported that Kahina, a female Berber warlord who led the resistance against the Arab invaders of North Africa in the 680s and 690s, was a Jew of the Jarawa tribe. With the defeat of the Berber resistance, none of the Jewish communities was initially forced to convert to Islam.Remnants of longstanding Jewish communities remain in Morocco, Tunisia and the Spanish cities of Ceuta and Melilla. There is a much-diminished but still vibrant community on the island of Djerba in Tunisia. Many Jews emigrated to North America in the early 20th century. Since 1948 and the civil war to establish Israel, most other Jews emigrated to Israel, France and Spain.
 
Posted by DHDoxies (Member # 19701) on :
 
quote:


The Vandals

The Vandals were an Germanic tribe from Asia, that entered the late Roman Empire during the 5th century, perhaps best known for their sack of Rome in 455. Although they were not notably more destructive than other invaders of ancient times, Renaissance and Early Modern writers who idealized Rome tended to blame the Vandals for its destruction. According to Procopius, the Vandals came to Africa at the request of Bonifacius, the military ruler of the region. However, it has been suggested that the Vandals migrated to Africa in search of safety; they had been attacked by a Roman army in 422 and had failed to seal a treaty with them. Led by their king, Gaiseric, some 80,000 Vandals, crossed into Africa from Spain in 429. Advancing eastwards along the coast, the Vandals lay siege to Hippo Regius in 430.


The Alans

The Alans or Alani were a group of White Asian tribes of nomadic pastoralists of the 1st millennium A.D. They spoke a Scytho-Sarmatian language. In 418 (or 426) the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths in Iberia (Spain), and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans then dissolved. Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").


The Visigoths

The Visigoths (western Goths); were an Asian Albino people, and are the ancestors of the modern Spanish and Portugese. They were one of two main branches of the Goths, the Ostrogoths being the other. Together these tribes were among the Germanic peoples from Central Asia who spread through the late Roman Empire during the Migration Period. The Romanized Visigoths first emerged as a distinct people during the 4th century, initially in the Balkans, where they participated in several wars with Rome. A Visigothic army under Alaric I eventually moved into Italy and famously sacked Rome in 410.

Eventually the Visigoths were settled in southern Gaul as foederati of the Romans, the reasons for which is still a subject for debate among scholars. They soon fell out with their hosts and established their own kingdom with its capital at Toulouse. They then slowly extended their authority into Hispania, displacing the Vandals and Alans. Their rule in Gaul was cut short at the Battle of Vouillé in 507 when they were defeated by the Franks under Clovis I. Thereafter the only territory north of the Pyrenees that the Visigoths held was Septimania, such that their kingdom became limited to Hispania. In 711 or 712 the Visigoths, were defeated in the Battle of Guadalete by a force of invading Arabs and Berbers (the Moors).

[/QB]

Mike cut the crap you stupid Kill Whitey, White people genocidist, White people hating Black racist POS scum bag, you know good and well the Vandals, Alans & Visigoths did NOT come from fricking Asia nor were they albinos you stupid lying, history stealing, deceptive son of Satan.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:


The Vandals were an Germanic tribe from Asia,


The Alans or Alani were a group of White Asian tribes


The Visigoths (western Goths); were an Asian Albino people,

Germany was originally located in Asia but was moved in the 3rd century to Europe. This is why the Germans have those slanty eyes

-Mike's Magical World of Nolledge
 
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
 
quote:
none of them can be suggested to be portrayals of "Eurasians".
Get your eyes checked.

North African rock art c. 4000 - 2000 BC, include depictions of thin nosed wavy haired figures with white faces and blonde hair:

"Smith (1993, 2005) believes that the appearance of white-faced Proto-Berbers in the Tassili and Acacus rock art can be related to these politically dominating physical types."
- Sahara: preistoria e storia del Sahara: Volume 18 (2007) p. 14

"Thirty-three years after the publication of Tribes of the Rif I saw and photographed cave paintings of blond Europeans" - Adventures and discoveries, Carleton S. Coon (1981), p. 88
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:
none of them can be suggested to be portrayals of "Eurasians".
Get your eyes checked.

North African rock art c. 4000 - 2000 BC, include depictions of thin nosed wavy haired figures with white faces and blonde hair:

"Smith (1993, 2005) believes that the appearance of white-faced Proto-Berbers in the Tassili and Acacus rock art can be related to these politically dominating physical types."
- Sahara: preistoria e storia del Sahara: Volume 18 (2007) p. 14

"Thirty-three years after the publication of Tribes of the Rif I saw and photographed cave paintings of blond Europeans" - Adventures and discoveries, Carleton S. Coon (1981), p. 88

Just as there is always ancient Black art, there are always degenerate White people who will create fake artifacts so as to make the claim that White people were a part of the ancient population. This is of course impossible, except for parts of Central Asia, but that fact has never stopped Whites from pursuing the fantasy. Such a person is the Frenchman Henri Lhote.

In 1933, a French soldier remembered as "Lieutenant Brenans" ventured into a deep wadi in the Tassili-n-ajjer plateau and discovered the rock art. Lhote, a pupil of "the great expert on prehistoric cave art in France" Abbe Breuil, was in Algeria at the time and heard about the discovery. He met the soldier at Djanet, learned all he could, then and mounted an expedition to investigate it. Working with the support of the Musée de l'Homme, Lhote and his associates discovered about 800 paintings, many of which he later made images of with the aid of painters and photographers. These images were presented in 1957 and 1958 at the Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris and were, in the opinion of André Malraux. "one of the most defining exhibitions of the mid-century".

After thoroughly exploring and uncovering many more images, Lhote publicized the hypothesis that the humanoid drawings represented space aliens. In The Search for the Tassili Frescoes: The story of the prehistoric rock-paintings of the Sahara (first published in France in 1958 and in London in 1959), Lhote called one particularly large and "curious figure" as "Jabbaren" and described him as the "great Martian god." The popular press gave much attention to Lhote's hypothesis of a prehistoric close encounter and it was later incorporated into the '"sensationalist claims" made by Erich von Däniken that ancient extraterrestrial astronauts visited prehistoric Earth.

 -


Some of the rock art faked by Henri Lhote;


 -  -


According to the Encyclopædia Britannica a "vivid dance scene" that Lhote discovered in 1956 can be attributed on stylistic grounds to Neolithic hunters that lived in the Sahara circa 6000 to 4000 B.C. Mainstream scientists regard the "great Martian god" and other rock art figures that are similar to it as representations of ordinary humans in ritual masks and costumes rather than the representations of extraterrestrial lifeforms. The value of Lhote's scholarship was also challenged by The Journal of North African Studies, an academic journal affiliated with the University of East Anglia:

Many of the claims of the expedition's leader, Henri Lhote, were misleading, a number of the paintings were faked, and the copying process was fraught with errors. The 'discovery' can only be understood within the political and cultural context of the time, namely the Algerian Revolution, France's attempt to partition Algeria, and the prevailing views of the Abbé Breuil, the arch-advocate of foreign influence in African rock art. The expedition's methods caused extensive damage to the rock art while the accompanying looting of cultural objects effectively sterilized the archaeological landscape. Any restitution process must necessarily include a full recognition of what was done and the inappropriateness of the values.


THE BLACK MAN CREATES AND BUILDS, THE ALBINO FALSELY CLAIMS AND DESTROYS!
 
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
Of course all this reminds one of the desperate attempt by pro-Apartheid white anthropologists to posit the tendentious thesis that "whites arrived in an almost empty South Africa before the 'Bantus' arrived. In fact many are still pushing this fake theory.

And there was this happy white discussion at the finding of a lone "Caucasian Kennewick 'man'" in North America--merely to assuage their feelings that white settlements were recent, ursurping, and murderously violent.

[b] The fact is that blacks in Africa traveled to the 4 corners of Africa long before some left to populate the other continents. Recall that the earliest expansion out of Africa was some 60,000YA, which means that blacks were in Africa for some 120,000-140,000YA before accidentally crossing over into what is now called Arabia and what is now called the Levant. Some also crossed over into Southern Europe[recall that blacks crossed over into far-off lands like Australia, New Zeeland, Tonga, New Guinea, Borneo, etc, by using boats] at places now called Iberia and Italy.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
And there was this happy white discussion at the finding of a lone "Caucasian Kennewick 'man'" in North America--merely to assuage their feelings that white settlements were recent, ursurping, and murderously violent.

Attributing the Kennewick man mock-up to European Albinism was your typical Albino lie which attributes all phenotypes with high nose bridge to European Albinos.

 -

National Park Service (NPS), U.S. Department of the Interior

Report on the Osteological Assessment of the "Kennewick Man" Skeleton
Joseph F. Powell and Jerome C. Rose, March 1, 1999


The most craniometrically similar samples appeared to be those from the south Pacific and Polynesia as well as the Ainu of Japan, a pattern observed in other studies of early American crania from North and South America (Steele and Powell 1992, 1994; Jantz and Owsley 1997). Thus Kennewick appears to have strongest morphological affinities with populations in Polynesia and southern Asia, and not with American Indians or Europeans in the reference samples.


http://www.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/index.htm#non-destr
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Okay, I don't know what any of the above posts have to do with the topic of Iberomarusians.

quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:

Doug M,

Unfortunately, your afrocentrism seems to be chronic.
Now, we all know that anthropologically, the Capsians and Berbers are identical. and that the M81 is called "Berber marker".

I won't wast time on this. It is a dogma, not an idea.

Yet Berbers and especially their Iberomarusian predecessors are African so 'Afrocentric' view or approach would only make sense.

We know from human remains that the Iberomaurusians were a robust people and were falsely classified into a 'type' all their own known as Mechtoid or Mechta-afalou. Explorer addresses this in is blog here.

Do modern Berber descend from the Maurusians? I believe some do. Of course 'Berbers' today are a diverse group with heterogeneous origins. Genetically it's said Berbers at least on the paternal side have a largely neolithic origin except for those males who carry E2. Maternally Berbers are much more diverse though there are certain clues.

'Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa'

Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild, Ene Metspalu, Mait Metspalu, Tuuli Reisberg, Doron M Behar, Sacha C Jones and Richard Villems

BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234

Abstract (provisional)

Background
A Southwest Asian origin and dispersal to North Africa
in the Early Upper Palaeolithic era has been inferred in
previous studies for mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6.
Both haplogroups have been proposed to show similar
geographic patterns and shared demographic histories.


Results
We report here 24 M1 and 33 U6 new complete mtDNA
sequences that allow us to refine the existing
phylogeny of these haplogroups. The resulting
phylogenetic information was used to genotype a
further 131 M1 and 91 U6 samples to determine the
geographic spread of their sub-clades. No southwest
Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered.
U6
and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and
Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-
clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with
their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper
Palaeolithic. The Bayesian Skyline Plots testify to non-
overlapping phases of expansion, and the haplogroups'
phylogenies suggest that there are U6 sub-clades that
expanded earlier than those in M1. Some M1 and U6
sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For
example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages
of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred
expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the
flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry
, whilst U6b
and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.


As for phenotypic features. Again it is often stressed that the Iberomaurusians had robust facial features. Such features still survive today among SOME Berber populations as seen here.
 
Posted by DHDoxies (Member # 19701) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:
Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:
none of them can be suggested to be portrayals of "Eurasians".
Get your eyes checked.

North African rock art c. 4000 - 2000 BC, include depictions of thin nosed wavy haired figures with white faces and blonde hair:

"Smith (1993, 2005) believes that the appearance of white-faced Proto-Berbers in the Tassili and Acacus rock art can be related to these politically dominating physical types."
- Sahara: preistoria e storia del Sahara: Volume 18 (2007) p. 14

"Thirty-three years after the publication of Tribes of the Rif I saw and photographed cave paintings of blond Europeans" - Adventures and discoveries, Carleton S. Coon (1981), p. 88

Just as there is always ancient Black art, there are always degenerate White people who will create fake artifacts so as to make the claim that White people were a part of the ancient population. This is of course impossible, except for parts of Central Asia, but that fact has never stopped Whites from pursuing the fantasy. Such a person is the Frenchman Henri Lhote.

In 1933, a French soldier remembered as "Lieutenant Brenans" ventured into a deep wadi in the Tassili-n-ajjer plateau and discovered the rock art. Lhote, a pupil of "the great expert on prehistoric cave art in France" Abbe Breuil, was in Algeria at the time and heard about the discovery. He met the soldier at Djanet, learned all he could, then and mounted an expedition to investigate it. Working with the support of the Musée de l'Homme, Lhote and his associates discovered about 800 paintings, many of which he later made images of with the aid of painters and photographers. These images were presented in 1957 and 1958 at the Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris and were, in the opinion of André Malraux. "one of the most defining exhibitions of the mid-century".

After thoroughly exploring and uncovering many more images, Lhote publicized the hypothesis that the humanoid drawings represented space aliens. In The Search for the Tassili Frescoes: The story of the prehistoric rock-paintings of the Sahara (first published in France in 1958 and in London in 1959), Lhote called one particularly large and "curious figure" as "Jabbaren" and described him as the "great Martian god." The popular press gave much attention to Lhote's hypothesis of a prehistoric close encounter and it was later incorporated into the '"sensationalist claims" made by Erich von Däniken that ancient extraterrestrial astronauts visited prehistoric Earth.

 -


Some of the rock art faked by Henri Lhote;


 -  -


According to the Encyclopædia Britannica a "vivid dance scene" that Lhote discovered in 1956 can be attributed on stylistic grounds to Neolithic hunters that lived in the Sahara circa 6000 to 4000 B.C. Mainstream scientists regard the "great Martian god" and other rock art figures that are similar to it as representations of ordinary humans in ritual masks and costumes rather than the representations of extraterrestrial lifeforms. The value of Lhote's scholarship was also challenged by The Journal of North African Studies, an academic journal affiliated with the University of East Anglia:

Many of the claims of the expedition's leader, Henri Lhote, were misleading, a number of the paintings were faked, and the copying process was fraught with errors. The 'discovery' can only be understood within the political and cultural context of the time, namely the Algerian Revolution, France's attempt to partition Algeria, and the prevailing views of the Abbé Breuil, the arch-advocate of foreign influence in African rock art. The expedition's methods caused extensive damage to the rock art while the accompanying looting of cultural objects effectively sterilized the archaeological landscape. Any restitution process must necessarily include a full recognition of what was done and the inappropriateness of the values.


THE BLACK MAN CREATES AND BUILDS, THE ALBINO FALSELY CLAIMS AND DESTROYS!

You've got that backwards Mike you stupid White people hating Black racist moronic POS. We Whites build & you Black racist POS's falsely claim & destroy. Once again oh White people hating, kill Whitey, lying, history stealing, wicked, evil, murderous, heartless, inhuman Black racist son of satan we Whites did NOT come from fricking Central Asia nor are we albinos.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Nice going Doxie, I see you added some new ones. It's always good to try and keep the conversation fresh.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
"You got it backwards" she is probably one of the characters created by the moderators. Real extensive vocab...He! He!
 
Posted by DHDoxies (Member # 19701) on :
 
What's the matter Xyyman, you mad because I called you out & exposed you for the White people hating racist you are racist? No need to use proper grammar or my full vocabulary on low life racist cracka haters like you & your ilk LOL ROTFLMBO.


Mike, I see you are not disputing anything I said about you, must be you agree LOL.


Anyhow I will now see my way out of this thread, I only came in because of Mike's posting about the Germanic tribes & the Alans being Asian.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DHDoxies:
I only came in because of Mike's posting about the Germanic tribes & the Alans being Asian.

Asian "AND" Albino!
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago"(Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345)
from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927

Where is this based on?

Thanks in advance,

Good question.

Need the quote's source to answer it since there's no such quote in Arredi2004.

For some book passages on the Maurusian try
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008325
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago"(Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345)
from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927

Where is this based on?

Thanks in advance,

Good question.

Need the quote's source to answer it since there's no such quote in Arredi2004.

For some book passages on the Maurusian try
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008325

Geographical genomics of human leukocyte gene expression variation in southern Morocco

Youssef Idaghdour,
Wendy Czika,
Kevin V Shianna,
Sang H Lee,
Peter M Visscher,
Hilary C Martin,
Kelci Miclaus,
Sami J Jadallah,
David B Goldstein,
Russell D Wolfinger
& Greg Gibson

Population structure of southern Morocco

The Souss region in southern Morocco is home to several million people of two dominant ancestries who live in either cities or rural villages (Fig. 1). The Amazigh Berbers are descendants of the first modern humans who populated north Africa 35,000 years or more ago, and many still live in traditional villages in the low Atlas Mountains. The Arabs, by contrast, moved into southern Morocco between the seventh and eleventh centuries and tend to occupy lowland villages. The cities are inhabited by both groups, often retaining their linguistic and cultural identities.


In June and July of 2008, we collected peripheral blood samples from 284 healthy adults from four locations, including approximately equal numbers of men and women, and of Amazigh and Arabs. Half of the sample was from two high-density, low- to middle-income, urban communities, Anza and Dchiera, located on either side of the city of Agadir. The other half was from two rural villages near Tiznit, 120 km to the south. Boutroch is predominantly Amazigh and remains relatively isolated, whereas Ighrem is predominantly Arab and (on the basis of self-reported information and our observations at the collection site) many of the men, in particular, commute into the cities.


Full study:

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v42/n1/full/ng.495.html


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BERBER MARRIAGE CELEBRATION IN AGADIR, MOROCCO

 -


Morocco, Agadir, the souk, greengrocer

 -

 -




Ancient Walls of Tiznit, Morocco

 -


Berber musicians outside of Tiznit, Dec '09

 -



Training Day for Moroccan Teachers of English in Tiznit, Morocco


 -
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Morocco is a soup of Blacks, Albinos, and Mulattoes. How stupid and lying to say that you can isolate any one group.

(Sorry about the size of the musicians picture, only size that I could find.)



 -  -
 
Posted by DHDoxies (Member # 19701) on :
 
Mike cut the racist epithets towards my people we are NOT Albinos & those people are NOT White.
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Doxie dear, it might help if you told me where the "REAL" Albinos are.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
DHDoxie, there's no point in bothering. It's obvious Mike is afflicted with the same mental disorder as that of white racists. Racism can be like a disease where its victims then emulate their perpetrators. Black racism is nothing more than the reactionary inverse of the original racism of whites. It just as stupid and just as damaging. [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Thanks for sourcing. Now the real context is known.


quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago"(Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345)
from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927

Where is this based on?

Thanks in advance,

Good question.

Need the quote's source to answer it since there's no such quote in Arredi2004.

For some book passages on the Maurusian try
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008325

Geographical genomics of human leukocyte gene expression variation in southern Morocco

Youssef Idaghdour,
Wendy Czika,
Kevin V Shianna,
Sang H Lee,
Peter M Visscher,
Hilary C Martin,
Kelci Miclaus,
Sami J Jadallah,
David B Goldstein,
Russell D Wolfinger
& Greg Gibson

Population structure of southern Morocco

The Souss region in southern Morocco is home to several million people of two dominant ancestries who live in either cities or rural villages (Fig. 1). The Amazigh Berbers are descendants of the first modern humans who populated north Africa 35,000 years or more ago, and many still live in traditional villages in the low Atlas Mountains. The Arabs, by contrast, moved into southern Morocco between the seventh and eleventh centuries and tend to occupy lowland villages. The cities are inhabited by both groups, often retaining their linguistic and cultural identities.


In June and July of 2008, we collected peripheral blood samples from 284 healthy adults from four locations, including approximately equal numbers of men and women, and of Amazigh and Arabs. Half of the sample was from two high-density, low- to middle-income, urban communities, Anza and Dchiera, located on either side of the city of Agadir. The other half was from two rural villages near Tiznit, 120 km to the south. Boutroch is predominantly Amazigh and remains relatively isolated, whereas Ighrem is predominantly Arab and (on the basis of self-reported information and our observations at the collection site) many of the men, in particular, commute into the cities.


Full study:

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v42/n1/full/ng.495.html


 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yet it's interesting that the Sous region happens to be the area where the most black Berbers of Morocco live, which is why many Euronuts in turn make the claim that Sous Berbers are the descendants of "recent Sub-Saharan slaves". [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
DHDoxie, there's no point in bothering. It's obvious Mike is afflicted with the same mental disorder as that of white racists. Racism can be like a disease where its victims then emulate their perpetrators. Black racism is nothing more than the reactionary inverse of the original racism of whites. It just as stupid and just as damaging. [Embarrassed]

Filipino houseboys who owe their station to bending over for the Albino man, should know their place.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I found this: "The Amazigh Berbers are descendant of the first modern humans who populated North Africa 35,000 or more years ago" (Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, et al. A predominantly Neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 2004;75:338–345)
from: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798927

Where is this based on?

Thanks in advance,

The original Afro-Asiatic speakers in general were found all over Northern Africa, Mazigh, something people have known even before genetics. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
I think that the remaining Afrocentrists here are too fool to begin with [Big Grin] My excuses.

@The lioness, Don't tell me that the Berbers have multiple ancestors, I said it as first. But you suggest it is a special case of the Berbers. There are no people with one ancestor. But it goes on the principal predator.

I think i should try with the Eurocentrits, I hope they're wiser, and not obsessed with images.

But generally, I do respect the Afrocentrits, and I hope they advance in their cause, but with more logic and sense. Because, they -like as they are now- are hopeless.

What she means is Berbers have ancestors with origination from many parts of the world - as I am sure you would agree!
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:
none of them can be suggested to be portrayals of "Eurasians".
Get your eyes checked.

North African rock art c. 4000 - 2000 BC, include depictions of thin nosed wavy haired figures with white faces and blonde hair:

"Smith (1993, 2005) believes that the appearance of white-faced Proto-Berbers in the Tassili and Acacus rock art can be related to these politically dominating physical types."
- Sahara: preistoria e storia del Sahara: Volume 18 (2007) p. 14

"Thirty-three years after the publication of Tribes of the Rif I saw and photographed cave paintings of blond Europeans" - Adventures and discoveries, Carleton S. Coon (1981), p. 88

If Coon did see one. Which I doubt -they could very well have been those of the blond people that entered north Africa, Alans (Scythians), Vandals etc.

Why would they have to be indigenous to the area. In any case Coon never saw any blond Europeans or they would have been posted throughout the internet by now.

Unless you are talking about some of those that have been proven fraudulent. But even those hardly have blondish hair. Funny thing is Coon is the one that claimed the Ghomara Berbers who are the fairest skinned Berbers of the Riff claim to have originated further south in the Masmuda population. And unfortunately for Coon, all the early and medieval descriptions of the Masmuda of course refer to them as "black-skinned" people whose complexion scared the daylight out of horses of foreign invaders with their white "gnashing" teeth. [Big Grin]
 


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