This is topic What is a true "Arab" ? in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
I have to explain this to some folks.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Medieval Arab genealogists divided Arabs into three groups:

1) "Ancient Arabs", tribes that had vanished or been destroyed, such as ʿĀd and Thamud, often mentioned in the Qur'an as examples of God's power to destroy those who did not believe and follow their prophets and messengers.

All contemporary Arabs were considered as descended from the later two, groups with the ancestors, Qahtan and Adnan.

2) Qahtan "Pure Arabs" of South Arabia, descending from Qahtan.
The Qahtanites (Qahtanis) are said to have migrated from the land of Yemen following the destruction of the Ma'rib Dam (sadd Ma'rib). Semitic peoples either originating in, or claiming genealogical descent from the southern extent of the Arabian Peninsula, especially from Yemen

3) Adnanite
The "Arabized Arabs" (musta`ribah) of center and North Arabia, descending from Ishmael the elder son of Abraham. The Book of Genesis narrates that God promised Hagar to beget from Ishmael twelve princes and turn him to a great nation.(Genesis 17:20) The Book of Jubilees, in the other hand, claims that the sons of Ishmael intermingled with the 6 sons of Keturah, from Abraham, and their descendants were called Arabs and Ishmaelites.Adnan (Arabic: عدنان‎) is the traditional ancestor of the Adnanite Arabs of Northern, Western and Central-Western Arabia,According to tradition, Adnan is the father of a group of the Ishmaelite Arabs who inhabited West and Northern Arabia. Adnan is believed by Arab genealogies to be the father of many Ishmaelite tribes along the Western coast of Arabia, Northern Arabia and Iraq .According to Islamic tradition, the Islamic prophet Muhammad was descended from Adnan.


there is no such thing as "true Arab", that's tribal competative bullshit
(unless Muhammad was not a true Arab (theortically possible))
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
What is a true "Arab"?

HidayaAkade - What a pity that you have such an aversion to research.


Oldest known life-like Arab artifact.









(Those are Dredlocks).

Seen clearer here.















 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
The Turks in Arabia


Muhammad Ali (Pasha): In March 1803 the British were evacuated in accordance with the Peace of Amiens. But the Ottomans, determined to reassert their control over Egypt remained, establishing their power through a viceroy and an occupying army of Albanians. The Albanians later mutinied and installed their own leader as acting viceroy. When he was assassinated shortly afterward, the command of the Albanians passed to his lieutenant, Muhammad Ali. The dynasty that he established would rule Egypt and Sudan until the Egyptian Revolution of 1952.

In Arabia, the domination of Mecca and Medina by puritanical Wahhabi Muslims was a serious embarrassment to the Ottoman sultan, who was the titular overlord of the Arabian territory of the Hejaz and the leading Muslim sovereign. At the invitation of Sultan Mahmud II (1808-39), Muhammad Ali sent an expedition to Arabia that between 1811 and 1813 expelled the Wahhabis from the Hejaz. In a further campaign (1816-18), Ibrahim Pasha, the viceroy's eldest son, defeated the Wahhabis in their homeland of Najd, and brought central Arabia under Albanian control.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
The founder of Saudi Arabia


King Abdul Aziz Bin Abdul Rahman Al-Saud.

(The following is to be taken with a "Grain of Salt").





The founder of Saudi Arabia, King 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abd al-Rahman Al Sa'ud, changed the history of the Arabian Peninsula with a unifying religious faith, deft, inclusive politics, and a courageous and inspiring personality. Reestablishing his family's rule, he laid the cornerstone of a modern nation. 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abd al-Rahman Al Sa'ud was in the sixth generation in direct descent from Sa'ud ibn Muhammad ibn Muqrin, who died in 1725 and from whom the Al Sa'ud and Saudi Arabia take their names.

The founder of the modern state of Saudi Arabia not only recovered the territory of the first Al Saud empire, but made a state out of it. Abd al Aziz did this by maneuvering among a number of forces. The first was the religious fervor that Wahhabi Islam continued to inspire. His Wahhabi army, the Ikhwan, for instance, represented a powerful tool, but one that proved so difficult to control that the ruler ultimately had to destroy it. At the same time, Abd al Aziz had to anticipate the manner in which events in Arabia would be viewed abroad and allow foreign powers, particularly the British, to have their way.

Abd al Aziz restored the family from virtual political extinction by reintroducing the crusading zeal of Wahhabi Islam. Abd al Aziz established the Saudi state in three stages, namely, by retaking Najd in 1905, defeating the Shammar clan at Hail in 1921, and conquering the Hijaz in 1924.

At the time of 'Abd al-'Aziz's birth in 1880 or thereabouts, central Arabia had fallen into political fragmentation, and the Al Sa'ud in Riyadh were engaged in a power struggle with the rulers of the city of Hayil, the al-Rashids. This conflict led 'Abd al-' Aziz's father, 'Abd al-Rahman, to evacuate his family from Riyadh in 1891.

Among Abdulrahman's followers into exile was his teenage son named Abdulaziz, a tall young man who was already distinguishing himself as a fierce warrior for Islam and a natural leader of men. Unable to contain his boundless energy in the confines of Kuwait City, he sought permission from his father to embark on what seemed like a suicidal mission: to head out leading a small force of men in an attempt to retake Riyadh.

In 1893, the Al Sa'ud were invited to Kuwait by its ruler, Shaykh Muhammad Al-Sabah. By now 'Abd al-'Aziz was a young man, conspicuously tall and strong, and he soon became great friends with Shaykh Muhammad's half-brother, Mubarak. After Mubarak seized power from his brother, 'Abd al-'Aziz was invited to attend the daily majlis, or royal audience, at which petitions were presented and grievances heard.

The seizure of Najd by the al-Rashids was a perpetual source of pain to him and his father, to whom he was very close. Najd had been central to the first and second Saudi states, and its loss engendered a deep sense of resolve in 'Abd al-'Aziz to act to recover his patrimony, to restore the Al Sa'ud to the leadership of central Arabia.

In the first phase, Abd al Aziz acted as tribal leaders had acted for centuries. Twenty-one-year-old Abdul Aziz Bin Abdul Rahman Al-Saud left Kuwait in 1901, determined to recapture all of the territory once held by his forefathers and to extend his protection over the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah. In early 1901, 'Abd al-'Aziz joined a raid led by Shaykh Mubarak from Kuwait into the Rashids' territory and took advantage of it to attempt to seize Riyadh. He besieged its fortress and held the city for three months before withdrawing. After that, he immediately began planning for a new offensive.

Taking advantage of the fact that most of the Rashid forces were deployed in a counterattack against Kuwait, he undertook the daring raid in early 1902. In the beginning he was accompanied by 40 men, including members of his family. At the eve of the 5th of Shawwal the number of men accompanying King 'Abd al-'Aziz had increased to 63. Traveling at night and away from the main caravan routes to avoid detection, he reached the city, which was garrisoned by a large hostile force, and recaptured it in 1902 with only 40 men.

Welcomed as a returning leader, he later that day led Riyadh's inhabitants in prayer. Aware of the importance of keeping his grip on Riyadh, he immediately began repairs to the city walls. He also set about gaining the allegiance of the local populace and forged alliances with local tribes to undermine the Rashids' political power base. One of his first tasks was to establish himself in Riyadh as the Al Saud leader and the Wahhabi imam. Abd al Aziz obtained the support of the religious establishment in Riyadh, and this relatively swift recognition revealed the political force of Wahhabi authority. Leadership in this tradition did not necessarily follow age, but it respected lineage and, particularly, action. Despite his relative youth, by taking Riyadh Abd al Aziz had showed he possessed the qualities the tribes valued in a leader.

With Saudi rule firmly reestablished in their ancient capital, Abdulaziz began what turned out to be a 30-year struggle to reunite the tribes and city dwellers into what became the modern Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Ibn Sa'ud was anti-Turkish, but also anti-British, anti-Sherifian, anti-Shammar and leader of the puritanical Wahhabi sect (who rejected all luxury and the worship of saints, including Mohammed). However, he was also anxious to be on the winning side.

By 1905 the Ottoman governor in Iraq recognized Abd al Aziz as an Ottoman client in Najd. The Al Saud ruler accepted Ottoman suzerainty because it improved his political position. Nevertheless he made concurrent overtures to the British to rid Arabia of Ottoman influence.

Ibn Rashid of the Shammar saw an alliance with the Turks as the best way to remain independent from the Sherif and from Ibn Sa'ud of Riyadh. Open conflict between Al Sa'ud and the al-Rashids ended with the death in battle of Ibn Rashid in 1906, and the al-Rashids withdrew to their power base in Hayil, in northwestern Arabia. Often, 'Abd al-'Aziz took wives from the ranks of those he had defeated. Such actions were primarily political, part of 'Abd al-'Aziz's overall strategy of inclusion rather than division. This even extended to the al-Rashids, who continued to skirmish with 'Abd al-'Aziz through the early 1920's. Ever mindful of the need to keep an eye on one's potential foes, 'Abd al-'Aziz later welcomed the surviving members of the al-Rashids into his court, where they remained and were treated well, as befitted their noble status.

'Abd al-'Aziz then turned his attention to other centers of opposition, and over the next few years, he personally led his men to victory on many occasions.

Following the Young Turk coup of 1908, the Ottomans abandoned their pluralistic and pan-Islamic policies, instead pursuing a policy of secular Turkish nationalism. The formerly cosmopolitan and tolerant Ottoman Empire began overtly discriminating against its non-Turkish inhabitants. Arabs in particular were faced with political, cultural and linguistic persecution. During this time, Arab nationalist groups in Syria, Iraq and Arabia began to rally. When the Ottomans entered World War I on the side of the Central Powers in 1914, they arrested many Arab nationalist figures in Damascus and Beirut. Arabs were further threatened by the construction of the Hijaz Railway, connecting Damascus and Mecca, which promised to facilitate the mobility of Turkish troops into the Arab heartland.

Desperate to court him once war with the Turks became a reality in 1914, the British Government engaged in a long-term strategic relationship that benefited both sides: British support aided the Saudis in their efforts to reunify the country, which meant driving the Turks from the region, and the rising Arabian polity that resulted meant that Britain could look upon a friendly government in a part of the world that the British regarded as essential to the defense of the centerpiece of their empire -India.

In 1913 'Abd al-'Aziz marched dramatically onto the international stage, seizing first the Turkish garrison at Hofuf and then the coastal towns of al-'Uqayr and Qatif, thus winning control of the Gulf coast. With this campaign, he brought into the Saudi remit an area that was, by virtue of its oil reserves, to provide unparalleled wealth for his nation in later years.

About this time, the Ikhwan movement began to emerge among the beduin. The Ikhwan movement spread Wahhabi Islam among the nomads. Stressing the same strict adherence to religious law that Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab had preached, Ikhwan beduin abandoned their traditional way of life in the desert and move to an agricultural settlement called a hijra. The word hijra was related to the term for the Prophet's emigration from Mecca to Medina in 622, conveying the sense that one who settles in a hijra moves from a place of unbelief to a place of belief. By moving to the hijra the Ikhwan intended to take up a new way of life and dedicate themselves to enforcing a rigid Islamic orthodoxy. Once in the hijra the Ikhwan became extremely militant in enforcing upon themselves what they believed to be correct sunna (custom) of the Prophet, enjoining public prayer, mosque attendance, and gender segregation and condemning music, smoking, alcohol, and technology unknown at the time of the Prophet. They attacked those who refused to conform to Wahhabi interpretations of correct Islamic practice and tried to convert Muslims by force to their version of Wahhabism. The Ikhwan looked eagerly for the opportunity to fight nonWahhabi Muslims--and non-Muslims as well--and they took Abd al Aziz as their leader in this. By 1915 there were more than 200 hujar in and around Najd and nearly 100,000 Ikhwan waiting for a chance to fight.

Relying on the Ottomans to maintain stability in the Middle East before the war, Britain had earlier disdained a pact with Abd al Aziz, but after Britain's declaration of war against the Ottoman Empire in October 1914, the British sought an alliance with the House of Saud. By a treaty signed in December 1914, the British recognized Saudi independence from the Ottoman Empire and provided Abd al Aziz with financial subsidies and small arms. As his part of the agreement, Abd al Aziz promised to keep 4,000 men in the field against the House of Rashid, which was associated with the Ottomans.

In 1915 Abd al Aziz had various goals: he wanted to take Hail from the Al Rashid, to extend his control into the northern deserts in present-day Syria and Jordan, and to take over the Hijaz and the Persian Gulf coast. The British, however, had become more and more involved in Arabia because of World War I, and Abd al Aziz had to adjust his ambitions to British interests. The British prevented the Al Saud from taking over much of the gulf coast where they had established protectorates with several ruling dynasties. They also opposed Abd al Aziz's efforts to extend his influence beyond the Jordanian, Syrian, and Iraqi deserts because of their own imperial interests.

To the west, the British were allied with the Sharif family who ruled the Hijaz from their base in Mecca. The British encouraged the Sharif family to revolt against the Ottomans and so open a second front against them in World War I. Seeing an opportunity to liberate Arab lands from Turkish oppression, and trusting the honor of British officials who promised their support for a unified kingdom for the Arab lands, Sharif Hussein bin Ali, Emir of Mecca and King of the Arabs (and great grandfather of King Hussein), launched the Great Arab Revolt during the Great War. In 1916, the then Grand Hussein ibn Ali, proclaimed the independence Sharif of the Arabs. Although he initially assumed the leadership of all the Arabs, the lack of allied recognition and opposition from Imam Yahya of Yemen and ibn Saud of Najd, resulted in his recognition as King of Hijaz alone.

In this situation, Abd al Aziz had no choice but to focus his attentions on Hail. Bolstered by Ikhwan forces, Saudi control was extended to the outskirts of Hail, the Rashidi capital, by 1917. This caused problems with the Ikhwan because, unlike Mecca and Medina, Hail had no religious significance and the Wahhabis had no particular quarrel with the Rashidi clan who controlled it.

The Sharif family in Mecca, however, was another story. The Wahhabis had long borne a grudge against the Sharif because of their traditional opposition to Wahhabism. The ruler, Hussein, had made the situation worse by forbidding the Ikhwan to make the pilgrimage and then seeking non-Muslim, British help against the Muslim Ottomans.

When the Ottoman sultan, who had held the title of caliph, was deposed at the end of World War I, the Sharif took the title for himself. He had hoped that the new honor would gain him greater Muslim support, but the opposite happened. Many Muslims were offended that Hussein should handle Muslim tradition in such cavalier fashion and began to object strongly to his rule. To make matters worse for Hussein, the British were no longer willing to prop him up after the war. Abd al Aziz's efforts to control the Ikhwan in Transjordan as well as his accommodation of British interests in the gulf had proved to them he could act responsibly.

After the conclusion of the war, the victors reneged on their promises to the Arabs, carving from the dismembered Ottoman lands a patchwork system of mandates and protectorates. Armed conflict with the Saudis continued after the conclusion of the Great War, eventually forcing Hussein to give up his throne in favour of his eldest son, Ali. King Ali's younger brothers, Abdullah and Faisal, had become Amir of Transjordan (later King of Jordan) and King of Iraq, respectively. While the colonial powers denied the Arabs their promised single unified Arab state, it is nevertheless testimony to the effectiveness of the Great Arab Revolt that the Hashemite family was able to secure Arab rule over Transjordan, Iraq and Arabia.

Turkey's defeat in World War I left a political vacuum that 'Abd al-'Aziz had been readying himself to fill for some time. In 1919 the Ikhwan completely destroyed an army that Hussein had sent against them near the town of Turabah, which lay on the border between the Hijaz and Najd. The Ikhwan so completely decimated the Sharif's troops that there were no forces left to defend the Hijaz, and the entire area cowered under the threat of a Wahhabi attack. By 1920 he had assumed control over 'Asir in the southwest and over the al-Rashid stronghold of Hayil in the north. He was then able to turn his attention to the Hijaz, in which were located the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah and the major port of Jiddah. Abd al Aziz restrained the Ikhwan and managed to direct them toward Hail, which they took easily in 1921. The Ikhwan went beyond Hail, however, and pushed into central Transjordan where they challenged Hussein's son, Abd Allah, whose rule the British were trying to establish after the war. At this point, Abd al Aziz again had to rein in his troops to avoid further problems with the British. The British-brokered 1922 Treaty of Uqair, which defined the boundaries of Iraq and Kuwait, was aimed primarily at containing Saudi expansion into territories ruled by Britain's protegés, a fact that is now often forgotten.

By 1924, when the Ikhwan had conquered the Hijaz, almost all the territory of the present-day Saudi state was under Abd al Aziz's authority. The Al Saud conquest of the Hijaz had been possible since the battle at Turabah in 1919. Abd al Aziz had been waiting for the right moment and in 1924, he found it. The British did not encourage him to move into Mecca and Medina, but they also gave no indication that they would oppose him. So the Wahhabi armies took over the area with little opposition. The Hashemites suffered a major blow when King Ali bin al-Hussein, the eldest brother of Abdullah and Faisal, lost the throne of the Kingdom of the Hijaz to Abdel Aziz bin Saud of Najd. Ali ibn Hussein, King of the Hijaz and Grand Sharif of Mecca, had experienced no success against ibn Saud and was himself forced to evacuate Mecca and Medina on 19 December 1925, so as to avoid bloodshed and profanation of the Holy cities. The loss, which was brought about by a partnership between Ibn Saud and followers of the Wahhabi movement, led to the establishment of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and brought to an end over one thousand years of Hashemite rule in Mecca.

When he became the ruler of Mecca and Medina as well, Abd al Aziz took on the responsibilities of Khadim al Haramayn (servant of the two shrines) and so assumed an important position in the wider Muslim world. Finally, by maintaining his authority under pressure from the Western powers, Abd al Aziz had become the only truly independent Arab leader after World War I. Thus, he had a role to play in Arab politics as well.

Abd al Aziz was careful not to make more enemies than necessary--and he tried to make those enemies he had into friends. One can see this clearly in his handling of his two rivals from World War I, the Rashidi of Hail and the Sharif of Mecca. After conquering Hail, Abd al Aziz reestablished the marriage links that his ancestor, Turki, had first forged between the two families by marrying three of the Rashidi widows into his family. He made a similar effort to gain the favor of the Hashimites after taking the Hijaz. Rather than expelling the family as a future threat, Abd al Aziz gave some of its members large tracts of land, enabling them to stay in the area and prosper.

On September 23, 1932, Abdel Aziz bin Saud proclaimed this territory the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and himself its king.

Abd al Aziz assured himself the continued loyalty of those who had been allied with him by granting them what favors he could. This was difficult, however, because the new Saudi kingdom had little money in its first twenty years. The event that was to change all this was the discovery of massive oil reserves in the kingdom.

Looking for a foreign company to help develop the Kingdom's oil reserves, King Abdulaziz chose not one of the many British firms that were already working in the region - in Iran, Iraq and Bahrain - but an American company, a choice made over the objections of Britain, then the dominant global power. The granting of the oil concession on July 7, 1933, to Standard Oil of California, which would evolve into the Arabian American Oil Company (Aramco), was followed in November of the same year by the establishment of diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and the United States.

In February 1945, King Abdulaziz met separately with US President Franklin D. Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill along the Suez Canal. The main topic of conversation was the future of the Middle East in the post-war era. The meeting between King Abdulaziz and President Franklin D. Roosevelt on Febuary 14, 1945 set the stage for close Saudi-U.S. relations. While Ibn Saud was angered by the United States' acceptance of the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine, he overruled Prince Faisal's call for breaking diplomatic relations with America.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Oil discovered in Arabia in 1932!


The origins of Saudi Aramco lie in the oil shortages of World War I and the exclusion of American companies from Mesopotamia by the San Remo Petroleum Agreement of 1920. The US Republican administration had popular support for an ‘Open Door’ policy, which Herbert Hoover, secretary of commerce, initiated in 1921. Standard Oil of California (SoCal) was among those US companies actively seeking new sources of oil from abroad.

SoCal through its subsidiary company, the Bahrain Petroleum Company (BAPCO), struck oil on Bahrain in May 1932. This event heightened interest in the oil prospects of the Arabian mainland. On 29 May 1933, the Saudi Arabian government granted a concession to SoCal in preference to a rival bid from the Iraq Petroleum Company. The concession allowed Socal to explore for oil in Saudi Arabia. SoCal assigned this concession to a wholly owned subsidiary called California-Arabian Standard Oil Co. (CASOC). In 1936, with the company having had no success at locating oil, the Texas Oil Company (Texaco) purchased a 50% stake of the concession.

After four years of fruitless exploration, the first success came with the seventh drill site in Dammam, a few miles north of Dhahran in 1938, a well referred to as Dammam No. 7. This well immediately produced over 1,500 barrels per day (240 m3/d), giving the company confidence to continue. On 31 January 1944, the company name was changed from California-Arabian Standard Oil Company to Arabian American Oil Company (or Aramco). In 1948, Socal and Texaco were joined as investors by Standard Oil of New Jersey (Esso) which purchased 30% of the company, and Socony Vacuum (later Mobil) which purchased 10% of the company, leaving Socal and Texaco with 30% each. The newcomers were also shareholders in the Iraq Petroleum Company and had to get the restrictions of the Red Line Agreement lifted in order to be free to enter into this arrangement.

In 1950, King Abdulaziz threatened to nationalize his country's oil facilities, thus pressuring Aramco to agree to share profits 50/50.[17] A similar process had taken place with American oil companies in Venezuela a few years earlier. The American government granted US Aramco member companies a tax break known as the golden gimmick equivalent to the profits given to King Abdulaziz. In the wake of the new arrangement, the company's headquarters were moved from New York to Dhahran.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
As Saudi Arabia got richer, the Turk mulattoes who ruled it got lighter


The Saudi Royal Family


 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Demographics of Saudi Arabia:

In 1930 Saudi Arabias population was 2,366,000.

Saudi Arabia's population as of the April 2010 Census was 27,136,977: 18,707,576 Saudi nationals (Nationalized not native born) and 8,429,401 non-nationals. Until the 1960s, most of the population was nomadic or seminomadic; due to rapid economic and urban growth, more than 95% of the population now is settled (Most of the "Real" Arabs - Blacks - are still in the rural areas). Some cities and oases have densities of more than 1,000 people per square kilometer (2,600/mile²). Saudi Arabia's population is characterized by rapid growth and a large cohort of youths.


Who got the Oil Money?

The Royal family numbers about 2,000 with a total wealth of perhaps 1-1.5 trillion.

Here is the top 5 on the Saudi List - these are guesses. (And yes, the Bin Laden family listed is that Bin Laden family).

1–Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Bin Abdulaziz Alsaud, $16 billion.
Prince Alwaleed, a frequent interviewee on CNBC, is the highest-profile businessman in the Middle East and owns chunks of Citigroup, Apple and News Corp., which publishes this Web site. The publication says his net worth used to be $28 billion, but even after losing $12 billion, he still tops the Saudi list.

Of course, that $16 billion compares with Forbes’ $13.3 billion estimate of March. The Prince is clearly on a PR offensive to prove his worth after the Citigroup losses: He invited Forbes to spend a week with him earlier in the year to demonstrate that his wealth was higher and he gave “unprecedented” access to Saudi Business.

2–Mohammad Hussein Al Amoudi, $8.8 billion.
Born in Ethiopia to a Yemeni father, Mohammad Al Amoudi was raised in Saudi Arabia and is one of the largest foreign investors in Sweden and North Africa. He is in oil, mining, agriculture, hotels, hospitals, finance and real estate, mostly through his operating companies Corral Group and Midroc Group. He also bankrolls the national soccer team in Ethiopia.

3–Sheikh Mohamed Bin Isa Al Jaber, $8.5 billion.
Mohamed Al Jaber’s MBI International owns real-estate, oil and food companies throughout the world. It includes Jadawel International, JJW Hotels & Resorts, and the AJWA Group, one of the largest food companies in the Middle East. It also includes Continentoil, and oilfield services and management company with offices in the U.S. and U.K.

4–Nasser Al Rashid, $8 billion.
Perhaps best known for his megayacht, the 344-foot Lady Moura, which, before the Russians came along, was something to brag about. Not much else seems to be known about him, other than that he is an adviser to the Saudi royal family.

5–The Bin Laden Family, $7 billion.
The Saudi Bin Laden Group towers over the Middle East construction business through its Saudi Bin Laden Group. Its Dubai arm is building two new cities in Djibouti and Yemen, along with a bridge to connect them. The company has also started forging ties to China. The company’s founder, Mohammed Bin Laden, left 54 sons and daughters from several marriages. Thirteen of his sons sit on the board of the family’s business—the most prominent being Baker, Hassan, Islam and Yehya. Baker, Mohammed’s second son, is now head of the company.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Illustration showing Mohammed (on the right) preaching his final sermon to his earliest converts, on Mount Ararat near Mecca; astronomical treatise The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries by the Persian scholar al-Biruni; Manuscrits Arabe 1489


Mohammed solves a dispute over lifting the black stone into position at the Kaaba 1307 AD
Miniature illustration on vellum from the book Jami' al-Tawarikh (literally "Compendium of Chronicles" but often referred to as The Universal History or History of the World), by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia,


Mohammed (riding the horse) receiving the submission of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe he defeated at Medina. From the Jami'al-Tawarikh, dated 1314-5.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
[QB] The founder of Saudi Arabia


King Abdul Aziz Bin Abdul Rahman Al-Saud.

(The following is to be taken with a "Grain of Salt").

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___________^^^^_______________^^^^
same man, he was black in his early days


a true arab is one that can't be distinguished from a West African
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
What is a true "Arab"?

HidayaAkade - What a pity that you have such an aversion to research.


Oldest known life-like Arab artifact.

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Wow I didn't know that was the most ancient Arabian life-like artifact. Interesting. I also wonder about the Mada'in Saleh carvings that look like Somali heads or faces. Wondering how old they are.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

TRUE ARAB dana and Mike approved
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 



Some things - like raisin heads - never change. So be satisfied with the result.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

TRUE ARAB dana, Mike and lioness approved
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Illustration showing Mohammed (on the right) preaching his final sermon to his earliest converts, on Mount Ararat near Mecca; astronomical treatise The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries by the Persian scholar al-Biruni; Manuscrits Arabe 1489





Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egyptian captivity.



Mohammed solves a dispute over lifting the black stone into position at the Kaaba 1307 AD
Miniature illustration on vellum from the book Jami' al-Tawarikh (literally "Compendium of Chronicles" but often referred to as The Universal History or History of the World), by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia,





Jesus walking on water




Mohammed (riding the horse) receiving the submission of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe he defeated at Medina. From the Jami'al-Tawarikh, dated 1314-5.




Mary and Jesus.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

TRUE ARAB dana, Mike and lioness approved

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Some things, like raisin heads, never change, so rejoice at the discovery.




 

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Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Bump
 

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Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Bump
 

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Posted by GOMTUU (Member # 19606) on :
 
Indeed, marvelous. We all are children of God,no matter what color of ethnicity might be.
 

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Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Bump
 

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Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
 
The Arabian plate was probably never homogeneous throughout its history.

South Arabian alabaster head from the 1ST CENTURY B.C.-1ST CENTURY A.D.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-south-arabian-alabaster-head-of-a-4722433-details.aspx?intObjectID=4722433


More South Arabian artifacts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTZIeIbNxSE
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Illustration showing Mohammed (on the right) preaching his final sermon to his earliest converts, on Mount Ararat near Mecca; astronomical treatise The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries by the Persian scholar al-Biruni; Manuscrits Arabe 1489


Mohammed solves a dispute over lifting the black stone into position at the Kaaba 1307 AD
Miniature illustration on vellum from the book Jami' al-Tawarikh (literally "Compendium of Chronicles" but often referred to as The Universal History or History of the World), by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia,


Mohammed (riding the horse) receiving the submission of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe he defeated at Medina. From the Jami'al-Tawarikh, dated 1314-5.

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Any group of people can make themselves into the Prophets people if they want to but of course we all know that Central Asians that these paintings were not Arabs. Central Asians are central Asians.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
I have to explain this to some folks.

---

I prefer to use different terminology since anyone that speaks Arabic can be considered an Arab today. If you want to see some the nearly extinct original Arabs who conquered the Syrian, African and Central Asian peoples that Mike and LYIN_SS have posted on this site please visit the link below.



TRUE Shammar Arabs of the Tayyi branch of Qahtan in ARABIA. These original Arabs are protected from the hot sun of the deserts only by their blackish complexions like their ARAB ancestors. The ancestral Saracens wore their hair in braids and dreadlocks and wore skirts to the waist in their fights against the Assyrians. According to Burvkhardt very few fair-skinned Arabs were seen in the desert in his time. But times have obviously changed.

www.afroasiatics.blogspot.com



All early Arab tribes were described as near black to extremely black. As with the Berbers and Amazigh there were originally NO EXCEPTIONS!
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:
The Arabian plate was probably never homogeneous throughout its history.

South Arabian alabaster head from the 1ST CENTURY B.C.-1ST CENTURY A.D.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-south-arabian-alabaster-head-of-a-4722433-details.aspx?intObjectID=4722433


More South Arabian artifacts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTZIeIbNxSE

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Not sure what people like you aren't getting. Of course Sabaeans and other "Ethiopians" absorbed some levant traders in the 1st and 2nd century BC WHICH IS A VERY LATE ERA in Sabaean history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO CIVILIZATION WAS HOMOGENEOUS! AND THAT'S NOT THE POINT. As fate would have it Black is Black and the Sabeans WERE the Ethiopians of the ancient world. Which is why the Qahtan qadi said "a fair skinned Arab" is "inconceivable" and one of tthe 7RARE WONDERS of the world and why Ibn Mandour said lank hair is the hair of a non-Arab while kinky hair is what ARABS have.



Ethiopian or Eritraean woman



Typical high foreheaded early Sabaean princess ancestral to Tigrinya and many other Abyssinian populations.
 

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Posted by GOMTUU (Member # 19606) on :
 
Beautiful woman,African non Caucasian but I guess that must be what albinos think of her in the Alaster figurine as their own.
 

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Posted by GOMTUU (Member # 19606) on :
 
The hippie Jesus rears its ugly head again. Why are present day, Arabs so ugly looking and fat. It must be, laziness on their part since they have servitude do their jobs for them. Fat arses.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 










Bani Rasheed (Rashaida/Rashaayda) men, Hejaz region - Saudi Arabia/Eritrea/Sudan circa. 1930
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Really lioness, you are sooo sad.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Mike idiot, dana has a photo above from the same series

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:










Bani Rasheed (Rashaida/Rashaayda) men, Hejaz region - Saudi Arabia/Eritrea/Sudan circa. 1930

---

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people. Really gets boring after a while although they are purer Arabs then the folks you normally post.

Except for the Yafi here which you lightened up and the second girl from the Shahra or Kathir tribe, most of these look photos only half African and thus are biologically only half Arab. At least the ones I post look at least 3/4s or more Arab.

[/URL]
Arabs of Hudeidah(Biblical Heth or Hittite) in Yemen

Sorry but the original Arabs belonged to the Sudanic world and as Ibn Mandour said in Lisaan al Arab had "kinky" hair not lank hair "of the slaves" and "true Arabs" still do. Not lank hair "like the slaves" of the Arabians in the early Islamic period.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Sorry, but the original Arabs and Ethiopians i.e. black or east Africans were the same people before the former began mixing with Syrian concubines like the Syrian Shammar concubines in the Saudi ruling family [/URL]

Saudi Prince Sa'ad ibn Abdul Rahman (looks so much like my granddad god bless his soul) obviously this prince is purer Arab than some of his brothers.


Ethiopian band members

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_JTF3kn00

The leader singer of this group of singers from Ethiopia looks exactly like this Saudi prince above.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Medieval Arab genealogists divided Arabs into three groups:

1) "Ancient Arabs", tribes that had vanished or been destroyed, such as ʿĀd and Thamud, often mentioned in the Qur'an as examples of God's power to destroy those who did not believe and follow their prophets and messengers.

All contemporary Arabs were considered as descended from the later two, groups with the ancestors, Qahtan and Adnan.

2) Qahtan "Pure Arabs" of South Arabia, descending from Qahtan.
The Qahtanites (Qahtanis) are said to have migrated from the land of Yemen following the destruction of the Ma'rib Dam (sadd Ma'rib). Semitic peoples either originating in, or claiming genealogical descent from the southern extent of the Arabian Peninsula, especially from Yemen

3) Adnanite
The "Arabized Arabs" (musta`ribah) of center and North Arabia, descending from Ishmael the elder son of Abraham. The Book of Genesis narrates that God promised Hagar to beget from Ishmael twelve princes and turn him to a great nation.(Genesis 17:20) The Book of Jubilees, in the other hand, claims that the sons of Ishmael intermingled with the 6 sons of Keturah, from Abraham, and their descendants were called Arabs and Ishmaelites.Adnan (Arabic: عدنان‎) is the traditional ancestor of the Adnanite Arabs of Northern, Western and Central-Western Arabia,According to tradition, Adnan is the father of a group of the Ishmaelite Arabs who inhabited West and Northern Arabia. Adnan is believed by Arab genealogies to be the father of many Ishmaelite tribes along the Western coast of Arabia, Northern Arabia and Iraq .According to Islamic tradition, the Islamic prophet Muhammad was descended from Adnan.

---

Source? We know the above didn't come right out your warped mind.

quote:

---

there is no such thing as "true Arab", that's tribal competitive bullshit
(unless Muhammad was not a true Arab (theortically possible))

---

quote:

---

:

TRUE ARAB dana, Mike and lioness approved

---

I guess you can add me to that list as well.



LOL
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Illustration showing Mohammed (on the right) preaching his final sermon to his earliest converts, on Mount Ararat near Mecca; astronomical treatise The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries by the Persian scholar al-Biruni; Manuscrits Arabe 1489


Mohammed solves a dispute over lifting the black stone into position at the Kaaba 1307 AD
Miniature illustration on vellum from the book Jami' al-Tawarikh (literally "Compendium of Chronicles" but often referred to as The Universal History or History of the World), by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia,


Mohammed (riding the horse) receiving the submission of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe he defeated at Medina. From the Jami'al-Tawarikh, dated 1314-5.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sero:

The Arabian plate was probably never homogeneous throughout its history.

South Arabian alabaster head from the 1ST CENTURY B.C.-1ST CENTURY A.D.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-south-arabian-alabaster-head-of-a-4722433-details.aspx?intObjectID=4722433


More South Arabian artifacts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTZIeIbNxSE

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

^^^ "Real Arabs" must have afros?
Afrolunatic bullshit about hair

.


^^^ you posted this fool, from the same Bertram Thomas series,
same hair type hypocrite

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Except for the Yafi here which you lightened up

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/92278137@N04/9194985218/

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^^this may not even represent hair. It is not certain

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leo Minor:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

^^^ "Real Arabs" must have afros?
Afrolunatic bullshit about hair

---

Look who's talking?! Are you the one who claims "real (pure) Africans" must have kinky hair, and if their hair is loose or straight it must be due to admixture?!
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Olmec were Africans mentality applied to Arabians to promote Islam to black Americans
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


^^^ dana's source the website "Save the True Arabs"

and who is the "true Arab" prototype here in the picture ?

Ali bin Hamud (1884 -1918) the eighth Sultan of Zanzibar
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.

[...]

Although most post-Last Glacial Maximum recolonization events have a typically northward signature,30, 31 our J1e results provide an example of a southward spread during the early Holocene. Although J1e is one of the most frequent haplogroups in the region, haplogroup E-M123 also shows its highest frequency and haplotype diversity in regions of the Fertile Crescent, decreasing toward the Arabian Peninsula.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^ "Real Arabs" must have afros?
Afrolunatic bullshit about hair

---

Real Africans must have Afros?

Eurolunatic, bullshit,
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The Ubaid period (ca. 6500 to 3800 BC)is a prehistoric period of Mesopotamia.
Ubaid artifacts spread also all along the Arabian littoral, showing the growth of a trading system that stretched from the Mediterranean coast through to Oman.



 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

^^^ "Real Arabs" must have afros?
Afrolunatic bullshit about hair

.


^^^ you posted this fool, from the same Bertram Thomas series,
same hair type hypocrite

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Except for the Yafi here which you lightened up

---

I didn't lighten anything you lying psuedo-scholar swine.
I copied the photos directly as is from the link below posted by Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/92278137@N04/9194985218/

---

^^this may not even represent hair. It is not certain

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

quiet you fraud

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leo Minor:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

---

more hypocrisy


dana is a propagandist trying to make black Americans think their roots are in Mecca

---

Nice trolling LYIN_SS yourlyin_ssassinity is getting worse and worse. Why lie and say I said Arabs must have Afros. Why are you angry that the 14th century linguistic scholar said most Arabs have kinky hair while lank hair is the hair of the slaves.


That is not my fault and nor should it be the bain of your existence.lol!
Don't shoot the messenger.

And I'm glad you posted that the man on the book was not an Arabian because Arabians but more like the darker Sahelians, Mande, Nubians and peoples of the horn. Thankfully we can agree on something!
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:




[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leo Minor:




http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2595/92788103.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:


dana is a propagandist trying to make black Americans think their roots are in Mecca

---

Sorry but Persian and Syrian looking people with lank hair do not an ancient Arab make. And thankfully we know from the Syrians themselves that such people were considered to descendants of slaves of the Arabs.

One day you will be able to acknowledge those statements were made by the Syrians themselves. They same people who stated Canaanites were also black.


BTW - Meccans roots were in Africa not vice versa silly.


Love seeing the beauteous Sabean/Tigrinya faces of Ethiopia (ancient Arabia and the horn). Don't you?







Please tone down your hostility while making your points as your trolling might be affected deleteriously.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:^ "Real Arabs" must have afros?
Afrolunatic bullshit about hair

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lyin_ss. Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people.

---

You can try to pretend this Assyrian Bas relief portrays an Arab if you wish to put all true Arabs basically look alike - i.e. different from Iranians and Syrians. Just read the Syrian authors they will let you know.


The Syrian look in style in modern saudi Arabia among royals and the upper class was once considered a sign of slave origins. PERIOD! Sorry if that hurts.

---

.
The Syrian look in style in modern saudi Arabia. was once considered a sign of slave origins. PERIOD! Sorry if that hurts.


Same hair type as what my silly one. Is Bertram Thomas not allowed to post the pure Tayyi Shammar as opposed to the Syrian ones in Arabia that youy always post. What is your problem. lol!

Yes as we can see LYIN _SS, Arabs and Syrians don't look or dress alike or come from like places. One is near black and kinky haired even when it is long and one is light bright yes darn near white and lank or straightish haired like the Syrians and Persians they mainly come from. Sorry for your loss.

And I can guarantee you these Shammar and Yafi in these photos like the other true Qahatan or Arabs like the true Adnani Arabs "tribes of Ishmael" in Iraq all have the same kinky hair.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Tabari said the Kinda Arabs of Sacsac and Sakun were strange looking because although they were black like the Arabs they had straightish hair. That is in Wesley's Black Arabia. Too bad we don't read Arabic, right?
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Mike idiot, dana has a photo above from the same series

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


^^^ dana's source the website "Save the True Arabs"

and who is the "true Arab" prototype here in the picture ?

Ali bin Hamud (1884 -1918) the eighth Sultan of Zanzibar

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Ubaid period (ca. 6500 to 3800 BC)is a prehistoric period of Mesopotamia.
Ubaid artifacts spread also all along the Arabian littoral, showing the growth of a trading system that stretched from the Mediterranean coast through to Oman.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:

[
Nice trolling LYIN_SS yourlyin_ssassinity is getting worse and worse. Why lie and say I said Arabs must have Afros. Why are you angry that the 14th century linguistic scholar said most Arabs have kinky hair while lank hair is the hair of the slaves.

---

get my name right you dumb ho

Why would you even post those girls you can't tell if their hair has been straightened or what the nature of it is, stupid?

If you wanted to show pictures of people who had kinky hair then you should have showed people who have kinky hair in it's natural state, truly dumb

One 14th century linguist's opinion defines a people? Try that nonsense in Arabia or Yemen.
You think Muhammad had a fro?

And "most" does not mean all anyway.

And where is the reference to the original Arabic?
I have pursued this in the past - mistranslation of hair types,

And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch


And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch




And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch




your hair nonsense is mistranslated obscure alternative theory just like your "Israel was in Arabia" theory
you are a quack propagandist


The Zanj say that God did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs......

We Blacks have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood.

Al-Jahiz, 8th c


^^^ referring rebellion of the Zanj.
and Ethiopian Invasion of Southern Arabia before Islam
and also describes black tribes AMOUNG the Arabs.
This is a type of 'virtues of blacks' writing by Islamicized people of African descent reacting to racism by ARABS
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:

[
Nice trolling LYIN_SS yourlyin_ssassinity is getting worse and worse. Why lie and say I said Arabs must have Afros. Why are you angry that the 14th century linguistic scholar said most Arabs have kinky hair while lank hair is the hair of the slaves.

---

get my name right you dumb ho

Why would you even post those girls you can't tell if their hair has been straightened or what the nature of it is, stupid?

If you wanted to show pictures of people who had kinky hair then you should have showed people who have kinky hair in it's natural state, truly dumb

One 14th century linguist's opinion defines a people? Try that nonsense in Arabia or Yemen.
You think Muhammad had a fro?

And "most" does not mean all anyway.

And where is the reference to the original Arabic?
I have pursued this in the past - mistranslation of hair types,

And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch



And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch




your hair nonsense is mistranslated obscure alternative theory just like your "Israel was in Arabia" theory
you are a quack propagandist


The Zanj say that God did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs......

We Blacks have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood.

Al-Jahiz, 8th c


^^^ referring rebellion of the Zanj.
and Ethiopian Invasion of Southern Arabia before Islam
and also describes black tribes AMOUNG the Arabs.
This is a type of 'virtues of blacks' writing by Islamicized people of African descent reacting to racism by ARABS

---

"Dumb ho", "Dumb bytch"? Wow.

Lying _ssaniness, your increasing testiness and now I will have to say utterly trashy talk is puzzling me - are people here on Egyptsearch giving you a hard time or something.You act like you've been bullied on here.

If you had any common sense and I don't think you do you, you wouldn't have assumed I was posting the girls because of their hair. (

I was just admiring their obvious resemblance to the ancient Sabaean princess you posted.

If that's OK with you.

Muhammed with a fro? Actually, no most Arabs wore there hair in cornrows or locks silly, just like other black i.e. Sudanic people with KINKY hair. Although it looks as if the more ancient Arabs wore it in some raisin headed style like the Yemeni statues show.

Why are you posting what Zanj people said about the Iraqis lol! You do know Arabs occupied Iraq but were'nt Iraqi don't you. Only people on the Eurphrates like the Nabataeans were true Arabs and they of course are called by Jahiz and others "black" with big buttocks.

I am sorry for your loss.

Have to tell you its been discovered most of the blacks revolting in Iraq were in fact black but not Zang - mostly the pure ARabs, like the Bahila and other Azd from the Central Arabian deserts.

That's why Jahiz said the Zanghi said the Arabs belong to the blacks not to the red people i.e. whites!

Like it or not.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
BTW - now is that logical or even common sense to call the observations of the major Arabic linguist and Arabic grammarian of Medieval era and of Syrians visiting Arabia an alternative theory.


Please, you can do better than that.

He was just explaining the people in his times in saying that Arabs were mainly black "akhdar" with kinky hair and their slaves weren't.

it is not his fault that people 1000 years later would come to call the descendants of Turks, Syrians and Persians in Syria and Arabia Arabs, is it.


I should think not!
 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Bump
 

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Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Bump
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Once more we have witnessed the destruction of the prejudice notations by lioness. Now, go and make a new "pseudo account" acting as a third person.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
From Arabia we have these descriptions from early Western explorers:

“The inhabitants of this part of Arabia nearly all belong to the race of Himyar. Their complexion is almost as black as the Abyssinians,”-- Baron von Maltzan, 'Geography of Southern Arabia' (1872)

“ [the Hamida are] small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…”-- Sir Richard Burton (1879)

“The people of Dhufar are of the Qahtan tribe, the sons of Joktan mentioned in Genesis: they are of Hamitic or African rather than Arab types…”--Arnold Wilson, The Geographical Journal (1927)

“the most prosperous tribe of all the Hamitic group, possessing innumerable camels, herds of cattle and the richest frankincense country. They resemble the Bisharin tribe of the Nubian desert. Men of big bone , they have long faces long narrow jaws, noses of a refined shape long curly hair and brown skin.”--Richmond Palmer (1929)

“Mahra is the Arab name for the Bedouin tribes who are different in appearance to other Arabs, having almost beardless faces, fuzzy hair and dark pigmentation – such as the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis… Also on “…the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis with parts of other tribes. The language is derived from the language of the Sabaeans, Minaeans and Himyarites. The Mahra with other Southern Arabian peoples seem aligned to the Hamitic race of north-east Africa… The Mahra are believed to be descended from the Habasha, who colonized Ethiopia in the first millennium BC”-- David Phillips, Peoples on the Move (2001)

“European observers have made much of their physical resemblance to Somalis and Ethiopians, but there is no historical evidence of any connections.”-- E. Peterson, 'Oman’s Diverse Society: Southern Oman'

And scholars have long noted:

“Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”-- Charles Hardwick (1872)

“Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full,rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”-- Henry Field, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4 (1902)

“The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, arc known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.”-- F. Lenormant (1922)

“There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”-- Elliot Smith, he Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization (1923)

“In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”-- Handbook of the Territories which form the Theater of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
If there are so many Africans types native to Arabia where are their genetic signatures??
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I don't understand such complicated questions Jari, whatever do you mean? Did you mean what are their genetic signatures?
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Yeah, sorry Im not saavy when it comes to Genetics. Anyway I ask simply because many Genetic studies have Modern Arabs with Signatures that are distant from Africans even in Ethiopia etc. So while I do think the original Arabs were black based on the amount of evidence, what were they Genetically?? J1??
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Yeah, sorry Im not saavy when it comes to Genetics. Anyway I ask simply because many Genetic studies have Modern Arabs with Signatures that are distant from Africans even in Ethiopia etc. So while I do think the original Arabs were black based on the amount of evidence, what were they Genetically?? J1??

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No. J1 is from the Levant like many modern Arabs. Only God knows if genetics have studied the Qahtan people who still look like the Africans they are. I doubt it.

Like the rest of Arabia most Yemenites are also only a mixture of different non-Arab populations with the Arab Qahtan/Falaj tribes.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Actually J1 has its highest frequency in Yemen among those very black African-looking people you speak of-- at up to 80%.



^^ Outside of Yemen, it's highest frequency is in Sudan, and it's presence in both Sudan and the Horn are pre-Islamic and ancient whereas its presence in North Africa and the Maghreb is largely associated with Islamic expansion.

J2 is more associated with northern 'Adnani' Arabs or Mesopotamians since its highest frequency occurs there up to 25%



Then there's original J* which also has a high frequency in both southern Arabia and the Horn with its highest frequency in Soqotra Island.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually J1 has its highest frequency in Yemen among those very black African-looking people you speak of-- at up to 80%.



^^ Outside of Yemen, it's highest frequency is in Sudan, and it's presence in both Sudan and the Horn are pre-Islamic and ancient whereas its presence in North Africa and the Maghreb is largely associated with Islamic expansion.

J2 is more associated with northern 'Adnani' Arabs or Mesopotamians since its highest frequency occurs there up to 25%



Then there's original J* which also has a high frequency in both southern Arabia and the Horn with its highest frequency in Soqotra Island.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mena7:
Base on Assyrian artifacts that show dreadlock Arabs on camel fighting the Assyrian army I think the original Arab of Arabia were a black and brown people of different phenotype from Kush, Abyssinia, Egypt and Canaan. The fact that the Arab language is semitic close to the Canaanite, Aramaic, Hebrew, Abyssinian languages is the proof they have a black origin.

During the renaissance era and during the Ottoman Turkish domination of West Asia the black Arab started to mixed with white Turkish slave and immigrant to West Asia turning themselves into mulato. The Arab today in West Asia are a fixed mulato people. The North African also.

The thing I didn't like about muslim Arab civilization was the interdiction of muslim to make portrait of themselves. the Arabic coins have no portrait of their black and mulato rulers.

According to the Sokoto Empire Sultan Mohammed Bello and ex Libyan President Mouammar Kaddafi part of the Yoruba people of Nigeria are immigrant from the Arabian peninsula. That's mean some of the Arab tribes were Yoruba.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Wow!

Djehuti this is actually news to me. Thanks for the update! Last time i heard about J1 must have been from one of the neo-Nazis on this or on the Dienekes site. I had no idea. Well I guess the advancement of genetics has proven what has been said all along by colonialists and forensics, and will continue to do so.

And this is really powerful evidence.

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quote:

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On the other hand isn't it supposed to have originated in JT which people are saying is derived from Anatolia?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Illustration showing Mohammed (on the right) preaching his final sermon to his earliest converts, on Mount Ararat near Mecca; astronomical treatise The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries by the Persian scholar al-Biruni; Manuscrits Arabe 1489


Mohammed solves a dispute over lifting the black stone into position at the Kaaba 1307 AD
Miniature illustration on vellum from the book Jami' al-Tawarikh (literally "Compendium of Chronicles" but often referred to as The Universal History or History of the World), by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia,


Mohammed (riding the horse) receiving the submission of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe he defeated at Medina. From the Jami'al-Tawarikh, dated 1314-5.

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Hey lioness whats up

those are TURKS they used to be SLAVES to the BLACK ARABS

HISTORICAL DESCRIPTION OF Mohammed

Mohammed was born a.d. 570, four years after the death of Emperor Justinian, He was descended from the tribe of Koreish and the family of Hashem.

Mohammed was not a tall man, but he had such broad
shoulders that he looked like a giant. Mohammed had curly black woolly hair that gave him an excellent appearance. Finally, Mohammed married Kadijah, the rich woman of the city of Mecca, when she was about forty years old.





That is a TRUE ARAB lioness

Lioness These are HABBAN HEBREWS SOUTHERN YEMEN:

The city of Habban had a Jewish community of 450 in 1947, which was considered to possibly be the remains of a larger community which lived in independently in the region before its decline in the 6th century. The Jewish community of Habban disappeared from the map of the Hadramut, in southeast Yemen, with the immagration of all of its members to Israel in the 1950s.


this is what they looked like before the KHAZARS migrated into Israel from eastern Europe in 1950s




lioness see Abdullah I of Jordan in the middle he is NOT A ARAB he is a descendant of the Ottoman Turkish Rule.


now see lioness the 3 BLACK SKIN SUDANESE looking Habban Jewish bodyguards, the brothers Sayeed, Salaah, and Saadia Sofer, .
1922


see the Arabs are supposed to come from Abraham just like the HEBREWS

So in fact if the HEBREWS have BLACK SKIN then the ARABS would also RIGHT? that is common sense
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


OK,

I put up some sveral other dark skinned folks on the previous page


on Muhammad:

________________________________________________________


n one of the earliest sources, Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, there are numerous verbal descriptions of Muhammad. One description sourced to Ali ibn Abi Talib is as follows:

The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, is neither too short nor too tall. His hair are neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long al-masrubah which means hair growing from neck to navel. He is of long eye-lashes, close eyebrows, smooth and shining fore-head and long space between two shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him


Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 5791 Narrated byAli ibn AbuTalib
When Ali described the Prophet (peace be upon him) he said:
He was neither very tall nor excessively short, but was a man of medium size. He had neither very curly nor flowing hair but a mixture of both.

He was not obese, he did not have a very round face, but it was so to some extent.

He was reddish-white, he had wide black eyes and long eyelashes.

He had protruding joints and shoulder-blades, he was not hairy but had some hair on his chest, and the palms of his hands and his feet were calloused.

When he walked he raised his feet as though he were walking on a slope; when he turned round he turned completely.

Between his shoulders was the seal of prophecy and he was the seal of the prophets.

He had a finer chest than anyone else, was truer in utterance than anyone else, had the gentlest nature and the noblest tribe.

Those who saw him suddenly stood in awe of him and those who shared his acquaintanceship loved him. Those who described him said they had never seen anyone like him before or since. Tirmidhi transmitted it.

Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 51.3 The Sunna on Hair
Yahya related to me from Malik that Ziyad ibn Sad heard Ibn Shihab say, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, let his hair hang down his forehead as Allah willed, and afterwards he parted it."
Malik said, "There is no harm in a man's looking at the hair of his son's wife or the hair of his wife's mother."

Sahih Muslim HadithHadith 5750 Narrated byAnas ibn Malik
I saw when the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) got his hair cut by the barber, his Companions came round him and they eagerly wanted that no hair should fall but in the hand of a person.

Sahih Muslim HadithHadith 5773 Narrated byAnas ibn Malik
Qatadah reported: I asked Anas ibn Malik: How was the hair of Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him)? Thereupon he said: His hair was neither very curly nor very straight, and they hung over his shoulders and ear-lobes.

Sahih Muslim HadithHadith 5779 Narrated byAnas ibn Malik
Ibn Sirin reported: Anas ibn Malik was asked whether Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) dyed his hair. He said: He had not become old enough to have white hair. Ibn Idris said that he had a few white hair. AbuBakr and Umar, however, dyed hair with hina' (henna).

Sunan of Abu-DawoodHadith 4179 Narrated byUmm Hani
The Prophet (peace be upon him) came to Mecca and he had four plaits of hair.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.787 Narrated byAbdullah
The Prophet and some of his companions got their heads shaved and some others got their hair cut short. Narrated Muawiya: I cut short the hair of Allah's Apostle with a long blade.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 3.246 Narrated byAisha
(the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Apostle used to let his head in (the house) while he was in the mosque and I would comb and oil his hair. When in Itikaf he used not to enter the house except for a need.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.744 Narrated byIsmail bin Abi Khalid
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.747 Narrated byRabia bin Abi Abdur Rahman
I heard Anas bin Malik describing the Prophet saying, "He was of medium height amongst the people, neither tall nor short; he had a rosy color, neither absolutely white nor deep brown; his hair was neither completely curly nor quite lank. Divine Inspiration was revealed to him when he was forty years old. He stayed ten years in Mecca receiving the Divine Inspiration, and stayed in Medina for ten more years. When he expired, he had scarcely twenty white hairs in his head and beard." Rabi'a said, "I saw some of his hairs and it was red. When I asked about that, I was told that it turned red because of scent."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.748 Narrated byAnas
Allah's Apostle was neither very tall nor short, neither absolutely white nor deep brown. His hair was neither curly nor lank. Allah sent him (as an Apostle) when he was forty years old. Afterwards he resided in Mecca for ten years and in Medina for ten more years. When Allah took him unto Him, there was scarcely twenty white hairs in his head and beard.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.750 Narrated byQatada
I asked Anas, "Did the Prophet use to dye (his) hair?" He said, "No, for there were only a few white hairs on his temples."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.758 Narrated byIbn Abbas
Allah's Apostle used to let his hair hang down while the infidels used to part their hair. The people of the Scriptures were used to letting their hair hang down and Allah's Apostle liked to follow the people of the Scriptures in the matters about which he was not instructed otherwise. Then Allah's Apostle parted his hair.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.280 Narrated byAbdullah bin Abbas
The Prophet used to keep his hair falling loose while the pagans used to part their hair, and the People of the Scriptures used to keep their hair falling loose, and the Prophet liked to follow the People of the Scriptures in matters about which he had not been instructed differently, but later on the Prophet started parting his hair.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.782 Narrated byMuhammad bin Sirin
I asked Anas, "Did the Prophet dye his hair?" Anas replied, "The Prophet did not have except a few grey hairs."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.783 Narrated byThabit
Anas was asked whether the Prophet used a a hair dye or not. Anas replied, "The Prophet had not enough grey hair to dye. I could even count the white grey hairs of his beard if I would."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.784 Narrated byIsraiI
Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said, "My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama." Isra'il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet). 'Uthman added, "If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.785 Narrated byUthman bin Abdullah bin Mauhab
I went to Um Salama and she brought out for us some of the dyed hair of the Prophet.
Ibn Mauhab also said that Um Salama had shown him the red hair of the Prophet.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.787 Narrated byAnas bin Malik
The Prophet was neither conspicuously tall, nor short; neither very white, nor tawny. His hair was neither much curled, nor very straight. Allah sent him (as an Apostle) at the age of forty (and after that) he stayed for ten years in Mecca, and for ten more years in Medina. Allah took him unto Him at the age of sixty, and he scarcely had ten white hairs on his head and in his beard.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.788 Narrated byAl Bara
I did not see anybody in a red cloak looking more handsome than the Prophet. Narrated Malik: The hair of the Prophet used to hang near his shoulders. Narrated Shu'ba: The hair of the Prophet used to hang down to the earlobes.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.791 Narrated byQatada
I asked Anas bin Malik about the hair of Allah's Apostle. He said, "The hair of Allah's Apostle was neither much straight, nor much curly, and it used to hang down till between the shoulders and the earlobes.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.792 Narrated byAnas
The Prophet had big hands, and I have never seen anybody like him after him. The hair of the Prophet was wavy, neither curly nor straight.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.796 Narrated byAbdullah bin Umar
I heard 'Umar saying, "Whoever braids his hair should shave it (on finishing Ihram). You'd better not do, something like Talbid." Ibn Umar used to say: "I saw Allah's Apostle with his hair stuck together with gum."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.799 Narrated byIbn Abbas
The Prophet used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah.

The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.800 Narrated byAisha
As if I am now looking at the shine of the hair parting of the Prophet while he was in the state of Ihram.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.806 Narrated byAisha
I used to perfume Allah's Apostle with the best scent available till I saw the shine of the scent on his head and hair.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
yes lioness why do you prefer to post the paintings of Turmenistan and Uzbekistani origin and commentaries of peoples from Central Asia like Bukhari, and suggest that they are Arabs.

This commentary you like posting sounds much like the western descriptions and portrayals of Jesus and Mary rosy color with long wavy hair.

Could the prophet be the only person in Mecca of such color that wasn't a Coptic (i.e. Byzantine slave). Could he have been the only rosy colored one when all of his surrounding relatives are described as black as night or tar - Including his paternal grandfather son of a Khazraji and mother lines which were from Sulaym and the Atikas of the Azd.

“The Messenger of Allah was of medium stature, neither tall nor short, [with] a beautiful, dark brown-complexioned body. His hair was neither curly nor completely straight and
when he walked he leant forward.” [Al-Tirmidh)

And obviously the hair of the Kinanah is neither straight nor curly is it. I call it kinky.



Ibn Sa'd wrote "Zubayr reported on the authority of Ibrahim
: The Messenger of Allah (s) stretched his left foot,such that the blackness of its exposed part was visible."

The Arabian Prophet was from the tribe of Kinanah who are STILL black lest we forget.

At a certain point even lying _sses have to use logic.

Next thing you'll be telling us that when the Chinese Ma Huan advisor to Zheng Hue wrote that the Arabs of Mecca and Hijaz extending to Jidda were of "very dark purple complexion" you'll be
interpreting that to mean their complexions were so white you could see their blue or purple veins.

Bukhari and other Central Asians often wrote of the Arabs inaccurately because they wanted to put themselves in their place, (much like yourrself) just as the 9th century Rumi once said.

"You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. "

Sorry but like Rumi I am not into Cetral Asian writings - for obvious reasons.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QB]

This guy is just your average much mixed Middle Eastern or Central Asian who does not biologically physically represent the early Arabs of either the tribes of Kedar or Nabit (black), nor the southern Qahtan (black) - and ESPECIALLY NOT the PROPHET or his family.


Boy from the clan of still living clan Kinana b. Khuzaima b. Mudrika who like the still living Hudail bin Mudrika also Kinana by blood from the tribes of Elyas (Elias) - ARE BLACK.

Tribes like the Hudhail and Kinana who were close to the prophet's lineage haven't mixed with non-Arab people i.e. Syrians and Central Asians and intermarry within their own clans.


Blacks or the black African is not called "Arapi' or Arab in Yiddish, Turkish and Greek for nothing. And "Canaanites" were not called blacks for nothing. Neither were the Mauri and Berbers originally called blacks for nothing.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I'd be careful about blanketing all early Canaanites or Arabians as that dark or "very black". Both artistic and historical evidence show that Arabians from the Bronze Age were already diverse in looks and features. I will say that the Israelites in their writings described certain tribes to their south like the Midianites, Kedarites, and others as 'shahhor' in complexion. 'Shahhor' is often translated as 'dark' though in poetry this darkness is likened to "late evening" and "wine". So no doubt they were very dark or black.

Also of relevance...

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html




--The Lancet, Volume 379, Issue 9819, Pages 915-922

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I'd be careful about blanketing all early Canaanites or Arabians as that dark or "very black". Both artistic and historical evidence show that Arabians from the Bronze Age were already diverse in looks and features. I will say that the Israelites in their writings described certain tribes to their south like the Midianites, Kedarites, and others as 'shahhor' in complexion. 'Shahhor' is often translated as 'dark' though in poetry this darkness is likened to "late evening" and "wine". So no doubt they were very dark or black.

Also of relevance...

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html




--The Lancet, Volume 379, Issue 9819, Pages 915-922

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Djehuti - the Israelites were an ancient people who were derived from the Midianites and other Canaanite people. No Israelite every wrote anything about color, any more than any Arab wrote about Muhammad being a white man with blue eyes and long hair. Israelites were an ancient people who had nothing to do with the Septuagint and later Talmudic interpretations, which were mainly Central Asian derived.

UI would be3 careful of believing the picture spams that people have posted claiming people in ancient bas reliefs as Arabs or Arabians. I can assure you many of them ARE NOT.


one famous one that people post said to be a bearded man named Abesha the "Midianite" entering Egypt with his family by early scholars is a good case in point. I am sure most know which painting I am referring to.
Israeli were a people related to the modern Kinanah, Qureish of Arabia whom were known as related to the Lehi and Levites until recent times.

Anyone who has truly researched the subject knows that the Kinanah, Quraysh and Levites or Israel were the same people.

See what A.J. Deus and others are noting:


"The Levite Quraysh should have been Muhammad's supporters against the Ghassanid Saracens, who then lost teh Kaaba to the Quraysh...the Levite Quraysh had a new plan which was later turned into a revelation how to go home to Israel. In order to achieve that they first took revenge against the Ghassanid Saracens because their archenemies had been sitting in the Levites Kaaba." p. 148 The Great Leap Fraud: Sociol Economics of Religious Terrorism Vol. 2.


"The Levite Korahites (alias Quraysh) had dispatched one prophet after another to subvert the Roman Empire's culture to redeem the nation of Israel." p. 20

Yes, being careful is what is lacking in this day time because most people are blogging about things they no very little about.

The modern or ancient Levant should not be confused with ancient Arabia or Israel and their Canaanite (Wadhi Kinawna) forbearers.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ While I don't doubt the Canaanite and other southern ancestry of the Israelites, they also had ancestry from more northern groups as well such as likely the Hurrians.

I generally am in agreement with Tukuler that the ancient Jews were divided into two kingdoms-- Judah and Israel-- the former in the south and the latter in the north, each assimilating different peoples in the area. The Judahites were the ones more black in appearance while the Israelites proper were no doubt lighter due to such light-skinned elements.

Of course I am of the predominant opinion that these ancient kingdoms were in the Levant instead of Arabia or Yemen. But even southern Arabia was not safe from such northern/light-skinned influence!

Recall the Pagani et al. study that talked about light-skin genes and associated Levantine ancestry found in Ethiopia here, and there is a recent study showing that such influence continues farther south in Africa albeit in much smaller frequency as shown here.

These genetic findings confirm what is found in the archaeology and especially skeletal remains-- that Arabia was already diverse due to infiltration of lighter-skinned types from the north already, and that some of this spilled out into Africa!

This fact along with more recent incursions by folks from the north is why you have some Himyarites who like the below:












 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Genetic studies on Jews.


Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews
The term "Ashkenazi" is relatively well defined in these studies; it refers to Jews living or whose "paternal" ancestors immigrated to the following parts of central and eastern Europe: the Rhine Valley, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, former Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Russia, and Ukraine. This excludes the Jews of southern Europe (Balkans, Iberia and Italy). Non Jews in the latter areas are outside the definitions used for estimating the genetic make-up of the ancestral "neighbor" or "host" populations of Ashkenazim.

All relevant Y-DNA studies have concluded that the majority of the paternal genetic heritage among Ashkenazim and other Jewish communities is similar to those found dominating Middle Eastern populations, and probably originated there. A smaller but still significant part of the Ashkenazi male-line population is more likely to have originated from European populations.[citation needed]

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[28] confirmed that the Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." However, when all haplotypes were included in the analysis, the admixture percentage increased to 23% ± 7%.[Note 3] Hammer et al. add that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors." In addition, the non-Jewish components in Ashkenazim and Sephardim are generally South European, specifically Greek.

QUOTE-
Ashkenazi men show low Y-DNA diversity within each major haplogroup, meaning that compared to the size of the modern population, it seems there were once a relatively small number of men having children. This possibly results from a series of founder events and high rates of endogamy within Europe. Despite Ashkenazi Jews representing a recently founded population in Europe, founding effects suggest that they probably derived from a large and diverse ancestral source population in the Middle East, who may have been larger than the source population from which the indigenous Europeans derived.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Y-DNA of Sephardi Jews
The term "Sephardi" refers to significantly different populations from one study to another. It can have a very restrictive meaning and only referring to people speaking Judeo-Spanish (excluding Moroccan Jews) or at the opposite the term Sephardi may designate all non-Ashkenazi populations (excluding Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and the Kurdish Jews). Between these two extremes, all kinds of variations exist.

Investigations made by Nebel et al.[2] on the genetic relationships among Ashkenazi Jews, Kurdish and Sephardi (North Africa, Turkey, Iberian Peninsula, Iraq and Syria) indicate that Jews are more genetically similar to groups in northern Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks and Armenians) than to Arabs. Considering the timing of this origin, the study found that "the common genetic Middle Eastern background (of Jewish populations ) predates the ethnogenesis in the region and concludes that the Y chromosome pool of Jews is an integral part of the genetic landscape of Middle East.

Y-DNA of Jews from North Africa
The largest study to date on the Jews of North Africa has been led by Gerard Lucotte et al. in 2003.[30] This study showed that the Jews of North Africa[Note 7] showed frequencies of their paternal haplotypes almost equal to those of the Lebanese and Palestinian non-Jews.

The authors also compared the distribution of haplotypes of Jews from North Africa with Sephardi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews and found a common origin between these groups.[38] The Jewish community of the island of Djerba in Tunisia is of special interest, making the tradition back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple. Two studies have attempted to test this hypothesis first by G. Lucotte et al. from 1993,[39] the second of F. Manni et al. of 2005.[40] They also conclude that the Jews of Djerba's paternal gene pool is different from the Arabs and Berbers of the island. For the first 77.5% of samples tested are of haplotype VIII (probably similar to the J haplogroup according Lucotte), the second shows that 100% of the samples are of Haplogroup J *. The second suggests that it is unlikely that the majority of this community comes from an ancient colonization of the island while for Lucotte it is unclear whether this high frequency is really an ancient relationship.

These studies therefore suggest that the paternal lineage of North African Jews comes predominantly from the Middle East with a minority contribution of African lineages, probably Berbers.

Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews

A recent study by Inês Nogueiro et al. (July 2009) on the Jews of north-eastern Portugal (region of Trás-os-Montes) showed that their paternal lines consisted of 35.2% lineages more typical of Europe (R : 31.7%, I : 3.5% ), and 37% lineages more typical of the Near East (J1: 12%, J2-M172: 25% ) and consequently, the Portuguese Jews of this region were genetically closer to other Jewish populations than to Portuguese non-Jews.


Y-DNA of Oriental Jews
Lucotte et al. 2003 study found that (Oriental, Sephardic, Ashkenazic Jews and Lebanese and Palestinians), "seem to be similar in their Y-haplotype patterns, both with regard to the haplotype distributions and the ancestral haplotype VIII frequencies." The authors stated in their findings that these results confirm similarities in the Y-haplotype frequencies of this Near-Eastern populations, sharing a common geographic origin."


Y-DNA of Roman Jews
The Roman Jews are as their name suggests Jews were distinguished as originating in the Middle East. Mr. Hammer et al. show their paternal lines are close to those of Ashkenazi Jews, mostly originating from Middle East.


Y-DNA of Kurdish Jews
In the article by Nebel et al. the authors show that Kurdish and Sephardi Jews have paternal genetic heritage indistinguishable. The study shows that mixtures between Kurdish Jews and their Muslim hosts are negligible and that Kurdish Jews are closer to other Jewish groups than to their long term host population. Mr. Hammer had already shown the strong correlation between the genetic heritage of Jews from North Africa with Kurdish Jews.

Y-DNA of the Jews of Yemen
The studies of Shen and Hammer et al. show that the paternal genes of Yemenite Jews is similar to that of other Jewish populations.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Y-DNA of Jews from Ethiopia
A study of Lucotte and Smets has shown that the genetic father of Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) was close to the Ethiopian non-Jewish populations. This is consistent with the theory that Beta Israel are descendants of ancient inhabitants of Ethiopia, not the Middle East.

Hammer et al. in 2000 and the team of Shen in 2004 arrive at similar conclusions, namely a genetic differentiation in – other people in the north of Ethiopia, which probably indicates a conversion of local populations.

A 2010 study by Behar et al. on the Genome-wide structure of Jews observed that the Beta Israel had similar levels of the Middle Eastern genetic clusters as the Semitic-speaking Tigreans and Amharas. However, compared to the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, who are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel had higher levels of Middle Eastern admixture.


A 2012 study showed that while primarily related to the local populations, Ethiopian Jews have very distant genetic links to the Middle East from some 2,000 years ago, and are likely descended from a few Jewish founders. It has been speculated that the community began when a few itinerant Jews who settled in Ethiopia in ancient times, converted locals to Judaism, and married into the local populations.


Comparison with the genetic heritage of non-Jewish populations

The Lembas

The Lemba clans are scattered among the Bantu-speaking tribes in Zimbabwe and northern South Africa. The oral tradition traces the origin of the Jewish Lembas to Saana in Yemen. Some practices seem reminiscent of Jewish practices (circumcision, food law,…). Two studies have attempted to determine the paternal origin of these tribes. The first by A. Spurdle and T. Jenkins dates from 1996 and suggests that more than half of Lembas tested are of Semitic origin.[Note 11] The second study by Mark G. Thomas et al. dates from 2000 and also suggests that part of Lembas have a Semitic origin that can come from a mixture of Arabs and Jews.[Note 12] In addition, the authors show that clans Lemba (Buba clan) has a large proportion of the former CMH.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Genetic studies on Arabs

The Paternal Ancestry across all Arabic countries is Haplogroup J1 especially the its major subclade J1-P58 the haplogroup that spread with Arabic conquest in the 7th century. It was found that Haplogroup J1 occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East and is the prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East. Haplogroup J1e (J-P58) is also associated with a Semitic linguistic common denominator, with the YCAII 22-22 allele state is closely associated with J1e. J-P58 subclade of J1 is single paternal lineage originated in the Near East of high frequency in Bedouins 70% Yemenis 68% Jordanians 55% , 55% of Palestinian Arabs, 48% of Omani People 34% of Tunisians, 35% of Algerians, and its precipitations drop in frequency as one moves away from Saudi Arabia and the Near East. J-P58 include all the J1-CMH haplotypes and is YCAII=22-22 motif, both found in Arabs and J1-Cohanim Jews (descendents of Aaron) The motif YCAII=22-22 characterise a monophyletic clad found in Arabs but less frequent in Ethiopian J1 and rare in Europe and Caucasus. It is now been resolved that the Arabic clade J1-P58,L147.1 that include all J1-Cohanim Jews and all CMH haplotypes and is YCAII=22-22. was the J1 clade that spread far and wide by the Islamic conquest Both Qahtanite and Adnanite Arabs are J1-P58 haplogroup since the Arabs of North Africa like Algeria (known to have Qahtanite lineage from the Arab conquest and Adnanite lineage from Bani Hilal and bani Sulaim migration to North Africa in the 10th century by the Fatimides, yet only E of the Berber and J1 are found in Arabs of North Africa and this J1 is marked by CMH and the motif YCAII=22-22. The J2 in Algerian Arabs is minor 3% and is of the rare J2-M67 of Chechnea rarely found in other Arabic countries and non existant in Arabian Peninsula and Yemen.

____________

Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry



Related. The Y chromosome, bottom right, pegs Jews and Arabs as cousins.

COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK--As fighting continues in the Middle East, a new genetic study shows that many Arabs and Jews are closely related. More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.


The results match historical accounts that some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.


Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. Many of the Jewish subjects were descended from ancestors who presumably originated in the Levant but dispersed throughout the world before returning to Israel in the past few generations; most of the Arab subjects could trace their ancestry to men who had lived in the region for centuries or longer. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just three of many groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years. The study, reported here at a Human Origins and Disease conference, will appear in an upcoming issue of Human Genetics.


Hammer praises the new study for "focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations." Oppenheim's team found, for example, that Jews have mixed more with European populations, which makes sense because some of them lived in Europe during the last millennium.

http://news.sciencemag.org/2000/10/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Jews and Arabs are 'genetic brothers'

Jewish heritage has been maintained


They may have their differences but Jews and Arabs share a common genetic heritage that stretches back thousands of years.


The striking similarities in their biology have just been revealed in a study of over 1,300 men in almost 30 countries worldwide.


Scientists compared the men's Y chromosomes, the tiny structures within cells that carry the genetic instructions that tell a developing foetus to become a boy.


The comparison also showed that Jews have successfully resisted having their gene pool diluted, despite having lived among non-Jews for thousands of years in what is commonly known as the Diaspora - the time since 556 BC when Jews migrated out of Palestine.


Genetic signatures

Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in the Y chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques.


Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors.

The study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese.


These signatures were significantly different from non-Jewish men outside of the Middle East. This means Jews and Arabs have more in common with each other, genetically speaking, than they do with any of the wider communities in which they might live.


Good opportunity


Dr Mark Jobling of Leicester University, UK, one of the authors of the new study, told the BBC: "The kind of DNA we have used to analyse this question is the human Y chromosome. This represents only 2% of our genetic material and it is passed down from father to son.


"This makes it particularly interesting to use in a study of Jewish populations because Jewishness is passed down from the mother to children - it is maternally inherited. So using a paternally inherited piece of DNA gives us a good opportunity to see the signal of mixture with other populations if this has occurred.

"The fact that we don't see it suggests that after the Diaspora these populations really have managed to maintain their Jewish heritage.


Dr Jobling dismissed the idea that the study could have any political implications. "It seems that in many of these situations where groups are in conflict with each other they are likely to be pretty much genetically indistinguishable, and this factor, to the peoples involved in these conflicts, clearly isn't the point and isn't likely to change their behaviour very much."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/742430.stm
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 


Frequencies og haplogroup J1 in Europe and West Asia tend to vary considerably from one regional community to the next. The highest local percentages in Europe are found in Greece, Italy, France, Spain and Portugal and hardly ever exceed 5% of the population. However Italy, France and Spain also have areas where J1 appears completely absent. Even in northern Europe, where the nation-wide frequencies are below 0.5%, very localised pockets of J1 have been observed in Scotland, England, Belgium, Germany and Poland. Larger sample sizes are needed to get a clearer picture of the distribution of J1 in Europe.


J1 can be divided in two main groups: the very large J1-P58 subclade, and the other branches of J1.


J1-P58 (J1b2 on the ISOGG tree, formerly known as J1c3) is by far the most widespread subclade of J1. It is a typically Semitic haplogroup, making up most of the population of the Arabian peninsula, where it accounts for approximately 40% t 75% of male lineages. The dominant lineage in the Arabian peninsula is J1-L147.1, which corresponds to the demographic explosion that followed the Muslim conquest in the 7th century CE.


L147.1 is also the Cohen Modal Haplotype. Roughly half of all Cohanim belong to the L147.1 subclade. In the Hebrew Bible the common ancestor of all Cohens is identified as Aaron, the brother of Moses.


J1-P58 is thought to have expanded from eastern Anatolia to the Levant, Taurus and Zagros mountains and the Arabian peninsula at the end of the last Ice Age (12,000 years ago) with the seasonal migrations of pastoralists. Arabic speakers recolonised the Arabian peninsula in the Bronze Age from the north-west of the peninsula, close to modern Jordan. The rise of Islam in the 7th century CE played a major part in the re-expansion of J1 from Arabia throughout the Middle East, as well as to North Africa, and to a lower extent to Sicily and southern Spain.


J1-L147.1 is the main Arabic cluster as well as the Cohanim haplotype (YCAII=22-22) among Jews.

J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.


J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is mostly a European subclade, although it has been found also in Turkey and in the Arabian peninsula. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.


J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. Some members belong to its subclade L816.


J1-L136 lineages negative for P56 or P58 are generally restricted to Europe. L136 is found in Eastern, Central and Mediterranean Europe. It also probably has a Neolithic origin.

J1-P56 is a minor Arabic cluster found on the Red Sea coast of Saudi Arabia and Yemen. It can be identified by the STR value DYS641=11.

J1-Z1828 is defined by the STR values DYS436=11 and DYS388<15. This is the second most common top level subclade after J1-P58. It is particularly frequent around the Taurus and Zagros mountains and in the Caucasus, but has also been found at low frequencies in western Turkey, Greece, South Italy, Central Europe, France, and the British Isles. The L1189 subclade seems to be mostly European, while the Z1842 subclade is chiefly restricted to the Caucasus, Zagros and Taurus.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Sudan and ethiopia do have J1 or J.that's the confusion.
They have the subclade of J1,CALLED J1 AND those later subclades.
J is only found or Haplogroup J-P209 is only found in the arabian peninsula and Socotra.


Haplogroup J-P209

Ancestor
IJ
Descendants
J-M267, J-M172
Defining mutations
12f2.1, L134, M304, P209, S6/L60, S34, S35


Haplogroup J-M267
In Genetic genealogy and human genetics, Y DNA haplogroup J-M267, also commonly known as Haplogroup J1 is a subclade (branch) of Y-DNA haplogroup J-P209, (commonly known as Haplogroup J) along with its sibling clade Y DNA haplogroup J-M172 (commonly known as Haplogroup J2). (All these haplogroups have had other historical names listed below.[Phylogenetics 1][Phylogenetics 2])


Men from this lineage share a common paternal ancestor, which is demonstrated and defined by the presence of the SNP mutation referred to as M267, which was announced in (Cinnioğlu 2004). This haplogroup is found today in significant frequencies in many areas in order near the Middle East, and parts of the Caucasus, Sudan and the Horn of Africa. It is also found in high frequencies in parts of North Africa and amongst Jewish groups, especially those with Cohen surnames. It can also be found much less commonly, but still occasionally in significant amounts, in Europe and as far east as Central Asia.

Ancestor
J-P209
Descendants
J-M62, J-M365.1, J-L136, J-Z1828


Defining mutations
M267, L255, L321, L765, L814, L827, L1030


Origins
Since the discovery of haplogroup J-P209 it has generally been recognized that it shows signs of having originated in or near West Asia. The frequency and diversity of both its major branches, J-M267 and J-M172, in that region makes them candidates as genetic markers of the spread of farming technology during the Neolithic, which is proposed to have had a major impact upon human populations.

J-M267 has several recognized subclades, some of which were recognized before J-M267 itself was recognized, for example J-M62 Y Chromosome Consortium "YCC" 2002. With one notable exception, J-P58, most of these are not common (Tofanelli 2009). Because of the dominance of J-P58 in J-M267 populations in many areas, discussion of J-M267's origins require a discussion of J-P58 at the same time.


In molecular evolution, a haplogroup (from the Greek: ἁπλούς, haploûs, "onefold, single, simple") is a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor having the same single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) mutation in all haplotypes. Haplogroup J-P209[Phylogenetics 1] is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. Its history since the Iron Age has been tied to the great events and migrations in this area and in particular to the Semitic people.


J-P209 is divided into two main subclades (branches) J-M267 and J-M172.


Distribution
Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2.


There are two J1'S.
The second one is a subclade of the first.

Subclades of the second J1.

Arab dna in africa or arab admixture in africa info below.

Distribution
Africa

North Africa received Semitic migrations, according to some studies it may have been diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Arredi 2004 and Semino 2004). However the Canary islands is not known to have had any Semitic language. There J-M267 is dominated by J-P58, and dispersed in a very uneven manner according to studies so far, often but not always being lower among Berber and/or non-urban populations. In Ethiopia there are signs of older movements of J-M267 into Africa across the Red Sea, not only in the J-P58 form. This also appears to be associated with Semitic languages. According to a study in 2011, in Tunisia, J-M267 is significantly more abundant in the urban (31.3%) than in the rural total population (2.5%). According to the authors, these results could be explained by supposing that Arabization in Tunisia was a military enterprise, therefore, mainly driven by men that displaced native Berbers to geographically marginal areas but that frequently married Berber women (Ennafaa 2011).


Arab dna/or admixture in africa.
J1c3

"In North Africa,It spread to North Africa (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; among Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), J1 first entered Ethiopia with the spread of Semitic speakers[citation needed] Eritrea (11%), Ethiopia (9%), Ethiopia-Amhara (33.3%). J1 also may be found with high frequency in the northern parts of Sudan (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Arabs 45%, Nubians 41%, Copts 39%, Beja 36%), and present with lower frequency in the region of Darfur (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Masalit 6%, Fur 6%). Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males, with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country.


In human genetics, Haplogroup J1c3 (P58) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup which is a subdivision of haplogroup J1c. It was known as J1e until February 2010, when a number of mutations were discovered in the J1 tree that made a change in nomenclature necessary.


Origin
A 2009 study concluded that the haplogroup had a more Northern origin than previously thought. According to this article, the origin of J1c3 is likely to have been in "a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey", spreading southward and towards the Mediterranean. Moreover, the network analysis of J1c3 haplotypes shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with "star burst" expansion in the Arabian Desert. The overall conclusion of the study was that that J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period.


The P58 marker which defines subgroup J1c3 was first identified by Karafet et al. in 2008. From early commercial testing, it appears that its associated Y-STR haplotype range spans many of the haplotypes associated with haplogroup J1, and that the majority of the members of haplogroup J1 will belong to this subgroup, with some smaller P58-negative groups.


J1c3d
The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula., which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.


Arabian Plate
Haplogroup J1c3, defined by the P58 marker is most frequent in Yemen-Saudi (65%) It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant, i.e. Palestinian (38.5%), Syria (30%), Lebanon (25%). In Jewish populations, J1c3 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews, 20.0% of Ashkenazi results, and 12% of Sephardi results.

North Africa
In North Africa, J1c3 first entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic and is common among Semitic speakers, with a frequency of 33.3% among Amharas in Semino et al. 2004. It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period. Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males,[8] with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country. Arredi et al. report Haplogroup J, apart from Haplogroup J2, in 4 out of 44 men tested (9.1%) from a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Mansoura in northern Egypt, and 6/29 = 20.7% of a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Luxor in southern Egypt.


Eurasian Plate
The frequency of Haplogroup J1c3 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries [citation needed] with mainly non-Arabic speaking countries, such as Iran (10.40%) and Turkey (9%). The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East is associated with Middle Eastern traders of the Neolithic who settled in Europe. It is also seen in the Black sea region of Turkey as well as in Dagestan, Russia in the Caucasus. In a study of 259 men of minorities from Iran and Azerbaijan (Roewer2009), 17-marker STR haplotypes resembling those typical for J1c3 were found in Iranian Arabs at 23.9%, and 10.9% in nearby Bakhtiaris. North Talysh (now part of Azerbaijan) had an incidence of 16.3. 11.1% in South Talysh, 7.0% in Gilaki and 4.4% in Mazandarani.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Jewish DNA - Genetic Research and The Origins of the Jewish People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRtc0XaA5k0


For more info.
Genetic studies on Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Edited-
Added info.

Sudan and ethiopia do have J1 or J.that's the confusion.
They have the subclade of J1,CALLED J1 AND those later subclades.
J is only found or Haplogroup J-P209 is only found in the arabian peninsula and Socotra.


Haplogroup J-P209

Ancestor
IJ
Descendants
J-M267, J-M172
Defining mutations
12f2.1, L134, M304, P209, S6/L60, S34, S35


Haplogroup J-M267
In Genetic genealogy and human genetics, Y DNA haplogroup J-M267, also commonly known as Haplogroup J1 is a subclade (branch) of Y-DNA haplogroup J-P209, (commonly known as Haplogroup J) along with its sibling clade Y DNA haplogroup J-M172 (commonly known as Haplogroup J2). (All these haplogroups have had other historical names listed below.[Phylogenetics 1][Phylogenetics 2])


Men from this lineage share a common paternal ancestor, which is demonstrated and defined by the presence of the SNP mutation referred to as M267, which was announced in (Cinnioğlu 2004). This haplogroup is found today in significant frequencies in many areas in order near the Middle East, and parts of the Caucasus, Sudan and the Horn of Africa. It is also found in high frequencies in parts of North Africa and amongst Jewish groups, especially those with Cohen surnames. It can also be found much less commonly, but still occasionally in significant amounts, in Europe and as far east as Central Asia.

Ancestor
J-P209
Descendants
J-M62, J-M365.1, J-L136, J-Z1828


Defining mutations
M267, L255, L321, L765, L814, L827, L1030


Origins
Since the discovery of haplogroup J-P209 it has generally been recognized that it shows signs of having originated in or near West Asia. The frequency and diversity of both its major branches, J-M267 and J-M172, in that region makes them candidates as genetic markers of the spread of farming technology during the Neolithic, which is proposed to have had a major impact upon human populations.

J-M267 has several recognized subclades, some of which were recognized before J-M267 itself was recognized, for example J-M62 Y Chromosome Consortium "YCC" 2002. With one notable exception, J-P58, most of these are not common (Tofanelli 2009). Because of the dominance of J-P58 in J-M267 populations in many areas, discussion of J-M267's origins require a discussion of J-P58 at the same time.


In molecular evolution, a haplogroup (from the Greek: ἁπλούς, haploûs, "onefold, single, simple") is a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor having the same single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) mutation in all haplotypes. Haplogroup J-P209[Phylogenetics 1] is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. Its history since the Iron Age has been tied to the great events and migrations in this area and in particular to the Semitic people.


J-P209 is divided into two main subclades (branches) J-M267 and J-M172.


Distribution
Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2.


There are two J1'S.
The second one is a subclade of the first.

Subclades of the second J1.

Arab dna in africa or arab admixture in africa info below.

Distribution
Africa

North Africa received Semitic migrations, according to some studies it may have been diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Arredi 2004 and Semino 2004). However the Canary islands is not known to have had any Semitic language. There J-M267 is dominated by J-P58, and dispersed in a very uneven manner according to studies so far, often but not always being lower among Berber and/or non-urban populations. In Ethiopia there are signs of older movements of J-M267 into Africa across the Red Sea, not only in the J-P58 form. This also appears to be associated with Semitic languages. According to a study in 2011, in Tunisia, J-M267 is significantly more abundant in the urban (31.3%) than in the rural total population (2.5%). According to the authors, these results could be explained by supposing that Arabization in Tunisia was a military enterprise, therefore, mainly driven by men that displaced native Berbers to geographically marginal areas but that frequently married Berber women (Ennafaa 2011).


Arab dna/or admixture in africa.
J1c3

"In North Africa,It spread to North Africa (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; among Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), J1 first entered Ethiopia with the spread of Semitic speakers[citation needed] Eritrea (11%), Ethiopia (9%), Ethiopia-Amhara (33.3%). J1 also may be found with high frequency in the northern parts of Sudan (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Arabs 45%, Nubians 41%, Copts 39%, Beja 36%), and present with lower frequency in the region of Darfur (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Masalit 6%, Fur 6%). Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males, with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country.


In human genetics, Haplogroup J1c3 (P58) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup which is a subdivision of haplogroup J1c. It was known as J1e until February 2010, when a number of mutations were discovered in the J1 tree that made a change in nomenclature necessary.


Origin
A 2009 study concluded that the haplogroup had a more Northern origin than previously thought. According to this article, the origin of J1c3 is likely to have been in "a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey", spreading southward and towards the Mediterranean. Moreover, the network analysis of J1c3 haplotypes shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with "star burst" expansion in the Arabian Desert. The overall conclusion of the study was that that J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period.


The P58 marker which defines subgroup J1c3 was first identified by Karafet et al. in 2008. From early commercial testing, it appears that its associated Y-STR haplotype range spans many of the haplotypes associated with haplogroup J1, and that the majority of the members of haplogroup J1 will belong to this subgroup, with some smaller P58-negative groups.


J1c3d
The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula., which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.


Arabian Plate
Haplogroup J1c3, defined by the P58 marker is most frequent in Yemen-Saudi (65%) It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant, i.e. Palestinian (38.5%), Syria (30%), Lebanon (25%). In Jewish populations, J1c3 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews, 20.0% of Ashkenazi results, and 12% of Sephardi results.

North Africa
In North Africa, J1c3 first entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic and is common among Semitic speakers, with a frequency of 33.3% among Amharas in Semino et al. 2004. It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period. Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males,[8] with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country. Arredi et al. report Haplogroup J, apart from Haplogroup J2, in 4 out of 44 men tested (9.1%) from a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Mansoura in northern Egypt, and 6/29 = 20.7% of a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Luxor in southern Egypt.


Eurasian Plate
The frequency of Haplogroup J1c3 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries [citation needed] with mainly non-Arabic speaking countries, such as Iran (10.40%) and Turkey (9%). The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East is associated with Middle Eastern traders of the Neolithic who settled in Europe. It is also seen in the Black sea region of Turkey as well as in Dagestan, Russia in the Caucasus. In a study of 259 men of minorities from Iran and Azerbaijan (Roewer2009), 17-marker STR haplotypes resembling those typical for J1c3 were found in Iranian Arabs at 23.9%, and 10.9% in nearby Bakhtiaris. North Talysh (now part of Azerbaijan) had an incidence of 16.3. 11.1% in South Talysh, 7.0% in Gilaki and 4.4% in Mazandarani.


I MADE mistake before,it seem that some folks in northern sudan do have arab admixture and it was not J THAT enter sudan,it was J1 IN J1c3 SUBCLADE FORM.

EARLY J HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ARABS AND THE FIRST J1.

Haplogroup J1c3 IS ARAB.
Most nubians in sudan are still unmixed and most still do not have recent arab admixture from the info above plus 2% do have of later J2,but in egypt most do have arab admixture.

Large number of arab sudanese do have recent arab admixture too and the beja.


Haplogroup J1c3 is a later J1 SUBCLADE.

The first one is black southwest asian in origin,the second J1
and later ONES are not.

There two J1'S,THAT IS WHAT WE OR I was confused about.

This J1 is really the arab-Haplogroup J1c3.


Nubians (Agriculturists; n=39; Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic)

3/39 = 7.7% B-M60 - Nilotic

3/39 = 7.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. North East Africa

5/39 = 12.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa

1/39 = 2.6% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa

4/39 = 10.3% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) Western Asia
Admixture but black in origin.


2/39 = 5.1% I-M170 - Near East
Admixture from turks
This is later subclade from.Is recent and came in with the turks

16/39 = 41.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) - Arabic

Recent arab admixture

1/39 = 2.6% J2-M172 -Arabic
Recent arab admixture

4/39 = 10.3% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Recent admixture but with other blacks from west africa,mostly like hausa.


So about 46% of nile nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

Half of the arabs in sudan would have admixture and half do not.

More info about that below.

Sudan; Nile Valley; Y-chromosome; haplogroups.
quote-
It seems that gene flow is not only recent (Holocene
onward) but also largely of focal nature. Most speakers
of Nilo-Saharan languages, the major linguistic family

spoken in the country, show very little evidence of gene

flow and demonstrate low migration rate, with exception
of the Nubians, who appear to have sustained consider-
able gene flow from Asia and Europe together with the Beja. Both Beja and Nubians lie at entering ports of the Sudan; the Beja in the Red Sea area where past and
where recent settlements of both Turks and Arabs are evident,

Arabs and Nubians occupy a strip along the Nile bordering

bordering south of Egypt, where successive waves of migration and

migration conquest of the Sudan have passed over the millennia
the (MacMichael, 1967; Hassan, 1968).

This is attested by the remarkable presence of the J-M172 chromosome known to be quite frequent in Turkey and the Levant, as known to be quite frequent in Turkey and the Levant, as logroup J-12f2 (Al-Zahery, 2003; Giacomo et al., 2004) and the bondage and genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by compa-
rable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 sub-clade among southern Egyptians (Cruciani et al., 2007).The group that displayed the highest population size in fact was the Gaalien from central Sudan. This group occupies a trading crossroad that extends back to the an-cient Kingdom of Meroe. The Gaalien exhibits a Y-profile
that gives insight into past and recent migrations to the Sudan. Interestingly, they still maintain low frequencies of haplogroup A-M13 and E-M78, which suggests older rooting and relates them to other neighboring popula-tions. Considerable frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups including J-12f2 are also present, consistent with a more recent Arabic oral tradition and descent.Among other groups with a relatively large population size are the Hausa and Copts. Hausa display elevated frequencies of the haplogroup R-P25, which is considered as an evidence for back migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa (Cruciani et al., 2002), although a recent study questions the reliability of this marker being used in singularity (Adams et al., 2006). Other groups with varying frequencies of this haplogroup, like the Borgu and Nubians, appear to have acquired it from Afro-Asi-atic speaking groups through gene flow. We have recently shown that this haplogroup is strongly associ-ated with the sickle cell gene. Both markers might have co-introgressed during the past 300 years to eastern Sahel (Bereir et al., 2007).


Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese:
Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With
Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1*
1Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan
2Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA

Sudan; Nile Valley; Y-chromosome; haplogroups
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
NOTE-
The Gaalien (arabized nubians)only have 40% arab admixture AND 4% european or turk admixture.
So most are still unmixed blacks,but a large number do have outside white admixture.

Arabs/Gaalien (Agriculturists; n=50; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic)

3/50 = 6.0% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a3-V22 North East Africa
5/50 = 10.0% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M 170, J-12f2, K-M9)Western Asia
2/50 = 4.0% I-M170 Near East
18/50 = 36.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
2/50 = 4.0% J2-M172 Arabic
3/50 = 6.0% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) Southwestern Asia
1/50 = 2.0% R1-M173(xR1b1-P25) Chadic
7/50 = 14.0% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
I found this in another forum FROM THIS POSTER CALLED Mortified.


Mortified-

quote:

---

This could explain the prevalence of J1 among the Bejas:

The Rabica and their supporters played a leading role in the
spread of Islam and Arab influence in the Land of the Mines:
After their quarrel with al-(Umar1, they allied themselves with the
Beja, with whom they intermarried extensively. They were thus to
benefit from the matrilineal system of succession (prevelant all
over the Sudan at that time) and inherit the control of the whole
region. A contemporary source (al-Masciidi) states that in 943,
the chief of the Rabica, Bisr b. Marwan, also entitled the <<Owner
of the Mines?) had at his disposal 3000 horsemen from the Rabica
and 30,000 from the Hadariba i.e. the Beja Muslims. A descendent
of this Bisr, called Abui l-Makarim Hibat Allah, was rewarded with
the title of Kanz al-Dawla or the Treasure of the State for his
collaboration with the Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim, to capture
AbM Rakwa, the Umayyad rebel, in ioo6. This title was used by his
successors who became known as Banil l-Kanz and who became a local force whose authority covered much of al-Manls and the Land
of the Mines 1.
In time the produce of the mines decreased gradually until it
stopped completely about the middle of the fourteenth century
and they were smothered with sand. The reasons for this decline
were probably due to the simple exhaustion of the best mines, the
attacks of the Beja and the Arab tribes and also because the
produce did not cover the expenses. Hence those engaged in ming
activities started to search for other occupations further to the
south.
The Arab migration to the Beja country was not confined to
the Land of the Mines, but reached as far as Khor Nubt about
seventy miles north-east of Haiya station, near Sinkat, where
the remains of an Arab colony that dates from 825-94I were
discovered. Its inhabitants were probably engaged in rearing and
trading in camels which played an important role in the conveyance
of goods between the mines, the Nile and the Red Sea Ports

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Note that 15% of sampled Sudanese Copts have B-M60
one of the internal African markers not invovlved in the
OoA expansion.

---

OR
Sudan.
Copts (Agriculturists; n=33; Afro-Asiatic, Ancient Egyptian > Semitic)
5/33 = 15.2% B-M60 - Nilotic.

 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Correction,early J,was in ancient egypt.

Quote-
Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2.
_________________
Time for a wake up call.
To recap briefly.


J was in ethiopia earlier but it's the subclade form.


The arab marker-J1-P58


J1-P58 (J1b2 on the ISOGG tree, formerly known as J1c3) is by far the most widespread subclade of J1. It is a typically Semitic haplogroup, making up most of the population of the Arabian peninsula, where it accounts for approximately 40% t 75% of male lineages. The dominant lineage in the Arabian peninsula is J1-L147.1, which corresponds to the demographic explosion that followed the Muslim conquest in the 7th century CE.

J1-L147.1 is the main Arabic cluster as well as the Cohanim haplotype (YCAII=22-22) among Jews.
This is arab also.
quote-
J1-P56 is a minor Arabic cluster found on the Red Sea coast of Saudi Arabia and Yemen. It can be identified by the STR value DYS641=11.


J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.


J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. Some members belong to its subclade L816.


J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is mostly a European subclade, although it has been found also in Turkey and in the Arabian peninsula. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.


J1c3d
The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula., which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.

Arabian Plate

Haplogroup J1c3, defined by the P58 marker is most frequent in Yemen-Saudi (65%) It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant, i.e. Palestinian (38.5%), Syria (30%), Lebanon (25%). In Jewish populations, J1c3 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews, 20.0% of Ashkenazi results, and 12% of Sephardi results.

North Africa
In North Africa, J1c3 first entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic and is common among Semitic speakers, with a frequency of 33.3% among Amharas in Semino et al. 2004. It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period. Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males,[8] with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country. Arredi et al. report Haplogroup J, apart from Haplogroup J2, in 4 out of 44 men tested (9.1%) from a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Mansoura in northern Egypt, and 6/29 = 20.7% of a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Luxor in southern Egypt.
_______________________________


Looks like the first Arabs and Jews/Hebrews were not black.
Mike and folks like him need to stop stealing other folks identities.
Blacks have thier own and older identities.
The non-sense that blacks were the original hebrews/jews and arabs need to stop,even if there are/were some black arabs and jews,but of course like in any groups some would go ignore the info just like white nubian.

He knows full well nubians the original ones are not white even if a few modern ones are.


Has mike would say-
He-He-He
or
HA,HA,HA.
Info he ignores.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Genetic studies done on modern Arabic-speakers or Arabians have little to do with the ancient and modern black populations that were the first people to call themselves "Arabs".

That is why bringing up genetics is irrelevant, especially when so few studies have been done on the authentic Arabs, i.e. black speakers of Qahtan dialects still occupying Arabia.

The question is who were these people related to and not who they mixed with and converted to Islam, Judaism or Christianity. Djehuti had a good point in that it shows they could have been Afro-Asiatic populations who are perhaps closely related to Arab populations of Sudan and who may have contributed their genetic material to other NON-BLACK inhabitants of Levant or southern Asia at some point in the late Holocene.

First and foremost, genetics done on a geographical basis is pointless, since the people occupying Arabia are historically documented as having come from Turkey, Persia, Africa and Syria in recent times - JUST LIKE IN EGYPT.

If the Egyptians, Arabians and Berbers were not black and kinky haired populations, the early writers from Syria, Persia and Rome. These people have long amalgamated with NON-black people and thus bringing up geographically
and linguistically-based genetic studies about modern populations of these people IS POINTLESS.

We know that the name refers only to a certain group of semitic speakers that were originally only referred to as black BY SYRIANS that includes the BLACK Nabataeans before they spread THEIR BLACK DIALECT now called ARAMAEAN to Lebanon and Syria. That includes the BLACK Kedar or QIDAR from which they sprang originally and who overran North Arabia. They include the still black SUlaymiyyan Howeitat who call themselves descendants of the BLACK NABATAEANS.
That includes the still black QAHTAN or Sabaean tribes of Maddhij, Tayyi, Mahra in modern ARABIA to whom were closely related Kahlan, Azd, Murad, Ruwalla, Ans, Hamdan and Abs before they spread to northern Arabia and Syria and Iraq where they were swamped in NON- ARAB, NON-BLACK populations who now consider themselves "ARABS".

I would like anyone to try and prove that a single Arab tribe today calling themselves "ARAB" was not originally derived from the above named people, or that the original of any Arab tribe named in a Central Asian text was not originally referred to as black.

We know that the Sabaean civilization was occupied by BLACKS both in Arabia and Africa due to the skeletal evidence and only influenced in late times by Sassanid mercahants around the coasts. That doesn't mean ARABS of the Sabaean people were affiliated with Central Asians or any other non-Arab stock.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Edited-

The early J AND EARLY J1 one speakers were black,that's true,but other later J1 speakers WERE NOT,JUST like the early I dna SPEAKERS were black and europe before whites came about but later I DNA FOLKS WERE NOT BLACK BUT WHITE EUROPEANS.

So whites inherited these early dna lineages like J,J1 and I and the dna mutated and theses later subclades FOR Haplogroup I-M170 AND LIKE SECOND J1 and later Mutations/SUBCLADES could be trace back to theses whites,simple.
So EURO-ASIAN whites and blacks are both J1,IT'S JUST ABOUT FINDING OUT WHO J1 BELONGS TO WHO.

Early dna J1 and J could be still found in THE native population in arabia however,i do not if it's the same for early I.


Black never called themselves arabs.
Nabataeans were not black the origianal folks were and you have mention there name above.
Qahtan are not arabs.They were in arabia before arabs.
Sabaean civilization was not arab,it was arabian but not arab,it's like saying ancient egypt was arab just because it's arab today.
Dna does not lie,and arabs and hewbrews are cousins,and were original not black and were white invaders of these original black lands.
Some of the native population became apart of the these invading arabs.
Some of the blacks of arabia were some of the first to become arabized.


Dna does not lie,the dna proof is all over place and the info is above and i am clear now what going on then i was before so i disagree with your post,but you are entertaining sometimes.

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^ Of relevance.



From Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

TreeMix: Who were the West Eurasian ancestors of Ethiopians?
By Razib Khan | December 2, 2012 5:46 pm
One of the primary concerns/questions I had about Luca Pagani’s paper on the genetic origin of Ethiopians is that he found that their West Eurasian ancestor was closer to Levantine than Arabian. I was confused by this because on model-based clustering (e.g., Admixture) when you push down to a fine level of granularity you always see that the Ethiopians cluster with the Yemenis for their non-African ancestry. More precisely, Yemeni Jews are often ~100% component X, which ~50% of the ancestry of Ethiopians.




From what I recall Pagani et al. used haplotype windows which they assigned to Eurasian or African ancestral components, and they compared these to the populations related to the putative ancestral groups. Because Pagani et al. used blocks of the genome, rather than just on specific genotypes, I weight their finding more strongly. But I wanted to double check with TreeMix if the finding in Admixture was peculiar.

So again, I took a ~150,000 SNP set ran it on TreeMix with migration = 5.



Again, you see that the gene flow to the Ethiopians is coming from a position on the tree rather close to Yemenite Jews. One model which may explain this, and still align with Pagani’s findings, is that Arabians themselves are a synthetic population. A “pure” Yemenite Jew may have ancient admixture of African affinity beneath an intrusive element from the north. The parallelism between Ethiopia and Arabia in this model is clear, with the major difference being magnitude of the source population admixture (greater in Arabia), as well as some differences of the target population.

This again reiterates us to be careful of trust first-blush summaries.
_____________________________________________________________

---

quote:

---

Djehuti wrote:

^^ One of those rare occasions you break free of your Eurocentrism to make sense, lioness.

Fact 1. Gene-flow between Ethiopia/Eritrea and Yemen is prehistoric and goes back to OOA times. Thus, even "pure" Yemenites themselves may carry and often do carry African ancestry.

Fact 2. The specific gene or allele-- SLC24A5--is stated by Pagani et al. themselves as not even being native to Yemen but deriving from further north in the Levant. Thus, no surprise the most pristine Yemenis who have little to no admixture are outright black in appearance.

Fact 3. The presence of SLC24A5 in Ethiopia is dated only to at most 1,000 BCE. This is relatively late for ancient Ethiopian history. No doubt many Euronuts will use this as proof that the original Ethio-Semitic speakers were light-skinned folks from the north, however the Geez language and script originated around 2,000 BCE prior to the entry of this gene and even the South Semites of Yemen were dark/black as described by Classical writers and noted from my previous paragraph above.

All the evidence thus far demonstrates that there was a wave or migration from the north i.e. the Levant down through Arabia into Yemen that reached into Africa however such a migration took place well after the advent of South Semitic in Yemen let alone Ethio-Semitic in Ethiopia.

---

The point is Arabia was NOT 'all black' at least by 1,000 BCE. As lioness pointed out, there was already synthesis of different populations--some indigenous others not.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

And edited-
So about 46% of nile sudanese nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
your point is not made anywhere, especially supporting lying _SS!.lol!

You are expressing speculative opinion. We know that the Syrians called Central Arabia and southern Arabia SUDAN! And that the ARABS themselves were most definitely BLACK in the sense that other "Ethiopians" were. Whether there were white Syrians in Arabia it looks as if they were early on absorbed into the predominant black or "Sudanic:" populations as evidenced by the longer kinky hair that the blacks had there from an early period.

BTW - please be aware that there are also Jews in Yemen and Hadramaut that look like Ethiopians, i.e. the original populations were not populations with Syrian or Persian admixture that you posted. Like other populations the Jewish Arabian population has been inundated with diluted strains (so-to speak) since the Babylonian period.






Yes gene flow between Yemen and the Horn goes back to ancient times because we know that during the neolithicn and early Bronze they were a single population and culture, and remained that way until the late Sabean period when they began trading with the Iranic non-black

people that had also intruded into Persia in a rather LATE PERIOD.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
I still largely disagree with and you mixing some facts with incorrect info but anyway everything i had to say i said already above.

The first arabs and hebrews were just not black.


The facts and dna info speak for themselves above and even Djehuti just posted the info recently here and lioness before.

Oh,and yes the first folks in persia were black,that does not mean the original ethnic persians were black because the native folks there never called themselves persians even if the later lived in country called persia later because of white invaders.

So there is nothing left for me to say here but i may come back maybe from time to time because this thread is sometimes entertaining.
Peace.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
I still largely disagree with and you mixing some facts with incorrect info but anyway everything i had to say i said already above.

The first arabs and hebrews were just not black.


The facts and dna info speak for themselves above and even Djehuti just posted the info recently here and lioness before.

Oh,and yes the first folks in persia were black,that does not mean persians were black.

So there is nothing left for me to say here but i may come back maybe from time to time because this thread is sometimes entertaining.
Peace.

---

First off the dna says no more than it does about the origin of the Berbers. All the dna shows is that modern populations are mixed between Syrians and Arabs i.e. indigenous blacks and that Et6hiopians who once lived in Arabia have had some influx or contact with these non-balck populations either within Africa or before they settled back there.

Finally. the Arabs and Hebrews were and are STILL black and for the most part remain under their ancient HEBREW and ARAB names as shown in my afroasiatics.blogpot.

Sorry for the inconvenience.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
I disagree,but your fun and a good sport.Has king would say peace.

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
in the DOCUMENTED histories, until 1400 AD the area of Hijaz was said to be occupied mainly by blacks and fair skinwas "rare" and "a slave attribute". The Nejd (Central Arabia extending to southern Syria) was considered an extension of Bilad as Sudan, like the Yemen. CASE CLOSED!

And Yeah, I am fun! Thats documented as well !
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

And edited-
So about 46% of nile sudanese nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

---

OK and edited - so do 98 percent of the Negroes in America so what does that make them.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:

Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

And edited-
So about 46% of nile sudanese nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

your point is not made anywhere, especially supporting lying _SS!.lol!

You are expressing speculative opinion. We know that the Syrians called Central Arabia and southern Arabia SUDAN! And that the ARABS themselves were most definitely BLACK in the sense that other "Ethiopians" were. Whether there were white Syrians in Arabia it looks as if they were early on absorbed into the predominant black or "Sudanic:" populations as evidenced by the longer kinky hair that the blacks had there from an early period.

BTW - please be aware that there are also Jews in Yemen and Hadramaut that look like Ethiopians, i.e. the original populations were not populations with Syrian or Persian admixture that you posted. Like other populations the Jewish Arabian population has been inundated with diluted strains (so-to speak) since the Babylonian period.






Yes gene flow between Yemen and the Horn goes back to ancient times because we know that during the neolithicn and early Bronze they were a single population and culture, and remained that way until the late Sabean period when they began trading with the Iranic non-black

people that had also intruded into Persia in a rather LATE PERIOD.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Edited-

The early J AND EARLY J1 one speakers were black,that's true,but other later J1 speakers WERE NOT,JUST like the early I dna SPEAKERS were black and europe before whites came about but later I DNA FOLKS WERE NOT BLACK BUT WHITE EUROPEANS.

So whites inherited these early dna lineages like J,J1 and I and the dna mutated and theses later subclades FOR Haplogroup I-M170 AND LIKE SECOND J1 and later Mutations/SUBCLADES could be trace back to theses whites,simple.
So EURO-ASIAN whites and blacks are both J1,IT'S JUST ABOUT FINDING OUT WHO J1 BELONGS TO WHO.

Early dna J1 and J could be still found in THE native population in arabia however,i do not if it's the same for early I.


Black never called themselves arabs.
Nabataeans were not black the origianal folks were and you have mention there name above.
Qahtan are not arabs.They were in arabia before arabs.
Sabaean civilization was not arab,it was arabian but not arab,it's like saying ancient egypt was arab just because it's arab today.
Dna does not lie,and arabs and hewbrews are cousins,and were original not black and were white invaders of these original black lands.
Some of the native population became apart of the these invading arabs.
Some of the blacks of arabia were some of the first to become arabized.


Dna does not lie,the dna proof is all over place and the info is above and i am clear now what going on then i was before so i disagree with your post,but you are entertaining sometimes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ Of relevance.



From Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

TreeMix: Who were the West Eurasian ancestors of Ethiopians?
By Razib Khan | December 2, 2012 5:46 pm
One of the primary concerns/questions I had about Luca Pagani’s paper on the genetic origin of Ethiopians is that he found that their West Eurasian ancestor was closer to Levantine than Arabian. I was confused by this because on model-based clustering (e.g., Admixture) when you push down to a fine level of granularity you always see that the Ethiopians cluster with the Yemenis for their non-African ancestry. More precisely, Yemeni Jews are often ~100% component X, which ~50% of the ancestry of Ethiopians.




From what I recall Pagani et al. used haplotype windows which they assigned to Eurasian or African ancestral components, and they compared these to the populations related to the putative ancestral groups. Because Pagani et al. used blocks of the genome, rather than just on specific genotypes, I weight their finding more strongly. But I wanted to double check with TreeMix if the finding in Admixture was peculiar.

So again, I took a ~150,000 SNP set ran it on TreeMix with migration = 5.



Again, you see that the gene flow to the Ethiopians is coming from a position on the tree rather close to Yemenite Jews. One model which may explain this, and still align with Pagani’s findings, is that Arabians themselves are a synthetic population. A “pure” Yemenite Jew may have ancient admixture of African affinity beneath an intrusive element from the north. The parallelism between Ethiopia and Arabia in this model is clear, with the major difference being magnitude of the source population admixture (greater in Arabia), as well as some differences of the target population.

This again reiterates us to be careful of trust first-blush summaries.
_____________________________________________________________

---

quote:

---

Djehuti wrote:

^^ One of those rare occasions you break free of your Eurocentrism to make sense, lioness.

Fact 1. Gene-flow between Ethiopia/Eritrea and Yemen is prehistoric and goes back to OOA times. Thus, even "pure" Yemenites themselves may carry and often do carry African ancestry.

Fact 2. The specific gene or allele-- SLC24A5--is stated by Pagani et al. themselves as not even being native to Yemen but deriving from further north in the Levant. Thus, no surprise the most pristine Yemenis who have little to no admixture are outright black in appearance.

Fact 3. The presence of SLC24A5 in Ethiopia is dated only to at most 1,000 BCE. This is relatively late for ancient Ethiopian history. No doubt many Euronuts will use this as proof that the original Ethio-Semitic speakers were light-skinned folks from the north, however the Geez language and script originated around 2,000 BCE prior to the entry of this gene and even the South Semites of Yemen were dark/black as described by Classical writers and noted from my previous paragraph above.

All the evidence thus far demonstrates that there was a wave or migration from the north i.e. the Levant down through Arabia into Yemen that reached into Africa however such a migration took place well after the advent of South Semitic in Yemen let alone Ethio-Semitic in Ethiopia.

---

The point is Arabia was NOT 'all black' at least by 1,000 BCE. As lioness pointed out, there was already synthesis of different populations--some indigenous others not.

---

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly.

AS I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that genetics have shown Ethiopians and Ancient Egyptians and FULANI, NUBIANS, Beja and other BLACKS have had intermixture of some sort with Levant people FAR EARLIER THAN THIS.


That doesn't mean there was a population of nay significance of white ARABS in Arabia. Sorry if I am missing something here.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 

quote:

---

AS I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that genetics have shown Ethiopians and Ancient Egyptians and FULANI, NUBIANS, Beja and other BLACKS have had intermixture of some sort with Levant people FAR EARLIER THAN THIS.

---

quote:

---

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly. [Smile]

It true.
It's is gene-
The P56 marker arab,and later this one The P58 arab marker,but you ignored the info.
Early white arab admixture into ethiopia for some.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
I still largely disagree with and you mixing some facts with incorrect info but anyway everything i had to say i said already above.

The first arabs and hebrews were just not black.


The facts and dna info speak for themselves above and even Djehuti just posted the info recently here and lioness before.

Oh,and yes the first folks in persia were black,that does not mean the original ethnic persians were black because the native folks there never called themselves persians even if the later lived in country called persia later because of white invaders.

So there is nothing left for me to say here but i may come back maybe from time to time because this thread is sometimes entertaining.
Peace.

---

quote:

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
EDITED-

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
I still largely disagree with and you mixing some facts with incorrect info but anyway everything i had to say i said already above.

The first arabs and hebrews were just not black.


The facts and dna info speak for themselves above and even Djehuti just posted the info recently here and lioness before.

Oh,and yes the first folks in persia were black,that does not mean the original ethnic persians were black because the native folks there never called themselves persians even if the later lived in country called persia later because of white invaders.

So there is nothing left for me to say here but i may come back maybe from time to time because this thread is sometimes entertaining.
Peace.

---

---

And now that you are back so soon and mention it AGAIN - yes the first Persians called themselves Dahae ans Faras from the ancient Arabs of Dzahhakk and brother Akk (Azd) and the Arab looking Achaenenids came from them not the later fairer-skinned Scythians - just as was intimated by the later Central Asians themselves.

“Shem's third son was Aswad, who begot Ahwaz and Pahlii, of whom the
latter begot Pars…. From the Tarikh - Guzida or Select History of Hamdullah Mustawfi al Qazwini b. 1281 AD

http://archive.org/details/tarkhiguzdao00hamd


Wonder why these historians always got things so confused - don't you?
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 

quote:

---

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:

quote:

---

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly.

---

It true.
It's is gene-
The P56 marker arab,and later this one The P58 arab marker,but you ignored the info.
Early white arab admixture into ethiopia for some.


OH,AND WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE PERSIANS IS THE FACTS.
PEACE.

---

Back so soon? The earliest or first to be called Persians, Moors, Egyptians, Nubians, Semites, Hamites, Japhetites, and Olmecs i.e. favorites of teh Gods were black with kinky hair.

Have fun!


btw - if this P56 marker is originally from the fair skinned Levant populations than it is not an Arab marker.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 

quote:

---

Back so soon? The earliest Persians, Moors, Egyptians, Nubians, Semites, Hamites, Japhetites and Olmecs were black.
Have fun.

---

What could i say?you could be addictive sometimes.
It like eating candy,sometimes it hard to stop.


Early blacks in persia?yes but they were not persians.
Early Moors were black?yes.
Nubians black?yes.
EARLY SEMITES?YES
HAMITES BLACK?YES,BUT WHATEVER,I DO NOT USE THE TERM.

Japhetites?

QUOTE-
The term has been used in modern times as a designation in physical anthropology, ethnography and comparative linguistics. In anthropology, it was used in a racial sense for "white people" (the Caucasian race). In linguistics it was used as a term for the Indo-European languages. These uses are now mostly obsolete. In a linguistic sense, only the Semitic peoples still form a well-defined phylum. The Indo-European group is not now known as "Japhetite" and the group formerly referred to as Hamitic is not now recognized as monophyletic within Afro-Asiatic.

______
Olmecs BLACK?
Some,but mostly blacks from asia,that'swhy african dna is found in some of them,it's asian dna but i think most were black,most likely it was a shared civilization,native american and native american of black asian origin.

I DO NOT REALLY USE THOSETERM FROM THE BIBLE BY THE WAY,AND THE BIBLE HAS TOO contradictions.So i do not use the bible for history.

quote:

---

btw - if this P56 marker is originally from the fair skinned Levant populations than it is not an Arab marker. [Wink]

---

Yes it was or it was white in origin,let's but it that way.


Thanks.
Oh,and peace.

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:

quote:

---

Back so soon? The earliest Persians, Moors, Egyptians, Nubians, Semites, Hamites, Japhetites and Olmecs were black.
Have fun.

---

What could i say?you could be addictive sometimes.
It like eating candy,sometimes it hard to stop.


Early blacks in persia?yes but they were not persians.
Early Moors were black?yes.
Nubians black?yes.
EARLY SEMITES?YES
HAMITES BLACK?YES,BUT WHATEVER,I DO NOT USE THE TERM.

Japhetites?

QUOTE-
The term has been used in modern times as a designation in physical anthropology, ethnography and comparative linguistics. In anthropology, it was used in a racial sense for "white people" (the Caucasian race). In linguistics it was used as a term for the Indo-European languages. These uses are now mostly obsolete. In a linguistic sense, only the Semitic peoples still form a well-defined phylum. The Indo-European group is not now known as "Japhetite" and the group formerly referred to as Hamitic is not now recognized as monophyletic within Afro-Asiatic.

______
Olmecs BLACK?
Some,but mostly blacks from asia,that'swhy african dna is found in some of them,it's asian dna but i think most were black,most likely it was a shared civilization,native american and native american of black asian origin.

I DO NOT REALLY USE THOSETERM FROM THE BIBLE BY THE WAY,AND THE BIBLE HAS TOO contradictions.So i do not use the bible for history.

quote:

---

btw - if this P56 marker is originally from the fair skinned Levant populations than it is not an Arab marker. [Wink]

---

Yes it was.


Thanks.
Oh,and peace.

---

The word black isn't bad. Only in your culture.

Lol! you are the addicted one that is why you can't stop responding.


Hope you enjoyed your holiday!
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:

quote:

---

Back so soon? The earliest Persians, Moors, Egyptians, Nubians, Semites, Hamites, Japhetites and Olmecs were black.
Have fun.

---

What could i say?you could be addictive sometimes.
It like eating candy,sometimes it hard to stop.


Early blacks in persia?yes but they were not persians.
Early Moors were black?yes.
Nubians black?yes.
EARLY SEMITES?YES
HAMITES BLACK?YES,BUT WHATEVER,I DO NOT USE THE TERM.

Japhetites?

QUOTE-
The term has been used in modern times as a designation in physical anthropology, ethnography and comparative linguistics. In anthropology, it was used in a racial sense for "white people" (the Caucasian race). In linguistics it was used as a term for the Indo-European languages. These uses are now mostly obsolete. In a linguistic sense, only the Semitic peoples still form a well-defined phylum. The Indo-European group is not now known as "Japhetite" and the group formerly referred to as Hamitic is not now recognized as monophyletic within Afro-Asiatic.

______
Olmecs BLACK?
Some,but mostly blacks from asia,that'swhy african dna is found in some of them,it's asian dna but i think most were black,most likely it was a shared civilization,native american and native american of black asian origin.

I DO NOT REALLY USE THOSETERM FROM THE BIBLE BY THE WAY,AND THE BIBLE HAS TOO contradictions.So i do not use the bible for history.

quote:

---

btw - if this P56 marker is originally from the fair skinned Levant populations than it is not an Arab marker. [Wink]

---

Yes it was.


Thanks.
Oh,and peace.

---

The word black isn't bad. Only in your culture, maybe!


And of course Olmecs ended up being mixed Asian (probably Japanese or east Asian) and African people after a while, much like the Arabs are now African Asian . They comprised and evolved into the later Mayans.

Sorry if that hurts some people. It doesn't take away Native heritage!

Lol! you are the addicted one. That is why you can't stop responding.


Hope you enjoyed your holiday, Eide Mubarak!
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
No the word black is not bad,i never said that.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT MAYAN INFO BY THE WAY,I WILL LET SOMEELSE RESPOND TO THAT ONE,BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT THE FIRST ARABS WERE NOT BLACK.YOU COULD GO BACK AND READ MY PAST RECENT POSTS.

quote:

---

Lol! you are the addicted one that is why you can't stop responding.

---

I JUST SAID you are sometimes like candy.

Peace.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
No the word black is not bad,i never said that.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT MAYAN INFO BY THE WAY,I WILL LET SOMEELSE RESPOND TO THAT ONE,BUT IT'S CLEAR THAT THE FIRST ARABS WERE NOT BLACK.YOU COULD GO BACK AND READ MY PAST RECENT POSTS.

quote:

---

Lol! you are the addicted one that is why you can't stop responding.

---

I JUST SAID you are sometimes like candy.

Peace.

---

Ummm! When you told me the Qahtan were pre-Arab you lost me and all hope. Because any Arabian will tell you Qahtan equals "Arab of the Arabs". And both Qahtan/Arab and their descendants - the original northern Arabs were the first and last of the Arabs. You are expressing your hopes and wishes. And thats not candy. unlike you I'm not responding to candy as what you are giving is more like sour grapes.

Oh, well.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

Arabs of Yarim near Sana'a as described by the medieval Syrians


Arabs of Iraq as described by the medieval Syrians
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 



Boy of the Banu Kinanah modern Jericho.


"Banu Kinanah (also Bani Kinanah) (Arabic: بنو كنانة‎) (Arabic: بني كنانة‎) are the largest Mudhari Adnanite tribe of western Saudi Arabia in Hejaz and
Tihama. They are descended from Kinanah, who was a grandson of Ilyas (known as Elijah in Jewish and Christian traditions) who was named after the prophet Elijah. Their history goes back to pre-Hijrah times.

Kinanah (or Kinana) was an ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad:..."
brought to you by Wikipedia
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:




Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly.

---

quote:

---

AS I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that genetics have shown Ethiopians and Ancient Egyptians and FULANI, NUBIANS, Beja and other BLACKS have had intermixture of some sort with Levant people FAR EARLIER THAN THIS.

---

quote:

---

That doesn't mean there was a population of nay significance of white ARABS in Arabia. Sorry if I am missing something here.

---

quote:

---

That doesn't mean there was a population of nay significance of white ARABS in Arabia. Sorry if I am missing something here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana
marniche:
The word "Arab" as conceived
of today is a primarily
a nationality born of
Middle Eastern politics
that is not reflective
or related to what was
meant in the ancient
and early Islamic world
when it was used in an
ethnic context almost
exclusively for black
populations in Arabia -
so why use it. I always
try to utilize the word
Arabian or Afro-Arabian
rather than "Arab".

---

It
looks like dana in your past
reply YOU AGREE WITH ME
AFTER ALL.
ABOUT WHAT IS A ARAB.
I THINK THERE IS
MISUNDERSTANDING
GOING
HERE.
You said it yourself here,that
native blacks are not arabs
but arabians,and THEY never
called
themeselves arabs.They had
thier own names and could be
under the umbrella term arabian.
Arabian and arab are two different
things
and the true arabs,the white ones
are trying to steal native arabian

history and should not be allowed to get
away with it.
That was my point all along.
SO you agree with me before.
The nativegroup
is not arab,but arabian.
That was my point,thanks for
saying
in past
or above.
You made you self really clear
there.

There is disagreement however on
when did
the white arab came in arabia
and yemen?
They came Early not later.

Djehuti -

quote:

---

It didn't say anything specifically
about 'white' people, though there
were folks with relatively lighter
skin in Arabia. The skeletal record
in ancient times already shows a
presence of non-tropical or colder
adapted folks so it is not far fetched.
As for just how "significant" their
population is, I don't know.

---

quote:

---

My point exactly. This shows that

Arabia was NOT "all" black during
that time and that there were tribes
of non-indigenes from the north that
infiltrated the peninsula.

---

 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Sabaeans were not arabs,they
were arabian,just like you said.
Anyway when you mention this
group Qahtan,it almost reminds
me of this group or name
Qatabanian.
So sorry i was not paying attention,and
you got me there,but i got you with
your past comments above.


Of course this is not a gotcha game,and
we should help each other out when
mistakes happen.

Anyway back to the point.
One is arab,and the other was
pre-arab,or arabian.
The true or original natives
of the arabian
peninsula.

SO we kinda saying the same thing.
I think overall on this we are on
the same basic page if you still
believe in your past comments
from another thread that i
posted above.


Arabs.
Qahtanite
The terms Qahtanite and Qahtani
(Arabic: قحطا
ن
‎; transliterated: Qahtan or
Qaḥ
ṭān or Kahtan) refer to one of the
main groups of Arab peoples
either originating in, or
claiming genealogical descent
from the southern extent of
the Arabian Peninsula, especially
from Yemen.


Arabians.
One of the four better-documented
languages of the Old South Arabian
(or "Ṣayhadic") sub-group
of South Semitic, Qatabānian
(or Qatabānic) was spoken
mainly but not exclusively in the
kingdom of Qatabän,located in
central Yemen. The language is
attested between 500 BC and 200
AD. Some two thousand inscriptions
are known written in the Ancient
South Arabian Monumental Script,
known as Musnad. These inscriptions
are mainly found in Wādī
Bayhān and Wādī
Ḥārib to the south-east
of Ma'rib, and from the plateau to
the south of that area. Qatabanian
inscriptions increase after the
beginning of the 4th century BC
when the Sabaeans ceased to dominate
the area, and Qatabān became
an independent kingdom. Qatabanian
was spoken in an area across the
kingdom of Qatabān as far
asJabal al-'Awd (near Zafar) in the
southwest, and if we are to believe
the Greek and Latin writers, it went
as far as Bāb al-Mandab on the
Red Sea. At the end of the 2nd century
AD, Saba' and Ḥaḑramawt
finally defeated Qatabān, and the inscriptions ended.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

---

OK and edited - so do 98 percent of the Negroes in America so what does that make them.

---

Oh i did see this.
Black of course but there
are few that do not look
black and many of these
types are not calling themselves
black anyway.

If look black you black,with
admixture or not.


Has for AA AND WHITE ADMIXTURE,
Well 98% is too high,i think
it's about at most 80-70%,of
course not counting recent blacks
from africa and some other places
so the number will go down.

Lamin mentions in past post
it's not even that high.
That another topic.

Keep in mind a few nubians are not

black or black looking.
I seen there picture before.

_______________


Back to the topic.


Has for nubians and beja in the link
below it's said that euro-asian
came later or recent in sudan.

Northern nubia i do not know,
since the dna info is for the lower
nubia region IN egypt but it's not broken
into ethnic groups and modern nubians
or a large number of them in egypt
live in upper egypt and some in lower
egypt.


Egypt is not has detailed or has
clear has sudan.
Sudan or researchers have done a
better job in sudan then egypt went to
comes to dna info.

Maybe they hope that original sudanese
were white and to claim ancient egypt
has white too.
That's why there so much more detailed
dna info east africa then egypt.

Djehuti has a point on this,but i made
this point a long time ago before i
even came here.

They hope to claim all east africa
down to southern africa and other
parts of africa has originally
caucasian.


Of course they failed.


Dna info for Modern egypt.



Dna info for ancient and modern sudan.

Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome
and Mitochondrial DNA Variation,
with Implications to the Peopling
of the Sudan

http://etd2.uofk.edu/view_etd.php?etd_details=4312
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
My point still stands when it comes to hebrews from my past post.


Has for the Nabataeans.

It seem that they were arabs.

The the first folks there
were arabians but i do not
think they ever called themselves
Nabataeans.

THE info says below they were
true arab,so could be not native
or arabian and to me a true arab
is not native to arabia.



The Nabataeans, also Nabateans
(Arabic: الأنبا
ط‎ al-ʾAnbāṭ),
were
ancient people who inhabited the
Southern Levant, their settlements
in CE 37 – c. 100, gave the name
of Nabatene to the borderland between
Arabia and Syria, from the Euphrates
to the Red Sea. Their
loosely-controlled
trading network, which centered
on strings
of oases that they controlled, where
agriculture was intensively practiced
in
limited areas, and on the routes
that
linked them, had no securely
defined
boundaries
in the surrounding desert. Trajan
conquered
the Nabataean kingdom, annexing
it to the
Roman Empire, where their individual
culture, easily identified
by their characteristic
finely-potted painted
ceramics, became dispersed
in the
general Greco-Roman culture
and was
eventually lost.


Origins
The Nabataeans had already some
tincture of foreign culture when
they first appear in history. That
culture was Aramaic; they wrote a
letter to Antigonus in Syriac letters,
and Aramaic continued to be the language
of their coins and inscriptions when
the tribe grew into a kingdom, and
profited by the decay of the Seleucids
to extend its borders northward over
the more fertile country east of the
Jordan. They occupied Hauran, and in
about 85 BC their king Aretas III became
lord of Damascus and Coele-Syria.
Nabataeans became the Arabic name
for Aramaeans, whether in Syria or
Iraq, a fact which was thought to
show that the Nabataeans were originally
Aramaean immigrants from Babylonia.
Proper names on their inscriptions
suggest that they were true Arabs who
had come under Aramaic influence.
Starcky identifies the Nabatu of
southern Arabia (Pre-Khalan migration)
as their ancestors. However different
groups amongst the Nabataeans wrote
their names in slightly different
ways, consequently archeologists are
reluctant to say that they were all
the same tribe, or that any one group
is the original Nabataeans.


Various native homelands were
suggested for the Nabataeans,
such as Northern Arabia and the
North-East of the Arabian peninsula,
based on a probable similarity
between the names of deities
which were worshiped in those areas,
and some similarities between the
inscriptions of some other Arab
groups who inhabited the southern
half of ancient Mesopotamia.


I hope that helps.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
The original folks of southern arabia.

The names are right here to clear up somethings.

History
The ancient Sabaean Kingdom
established power in the early
1st millennium BC. It was conquered,
in the 1st century BC, by the Ḥ
imyarites. After the disintegration
of the first Himyarite Kingdom of
the Kings of Saba' and Dhū
Raydān, the Middle Sabaean
Kingdom reappeared in the early
2nd century. The Sabaean kingdom
was finally conquered by the
Ḥimyarites in the late 3rd
century and at that time the
capital was Ma'rib. It was located
along the strip of desert called
Ṣayhad by medieval Arab geographers,
which is now named Ramlat al-Sab`atayn.

The Sabaean people were South
Arabian people. Each of these
had regional kingdoms in ancient
Yemen, with the Minaeans in the
north in Wādī al-Jawf,
the Sabeans on the south western
tip, stretching from the highlands
to the sea, the Qatabānians
to the east of them and the Ḥaḑramites east of them.

The Sabaeans, like the other
Yemenite kingdoms of the same
period, were involved in the extremely
lucrative spice trade, especially
frankincense and myrrh.

They left behind many inscriptions
in the monumental Musnad
(Old South Arabian) alphabet,
as well as numerous documents
in the cursive Zabūr script.

_________
See they had a script called
south arabian,not arabic.


Nabataeans.
Getting back to this part.
So for above the true arab
part could mean or could interpreted
has native arabian.
If that's the case then most of
the Nabataeans could have been black.

Folks and scholars seem to get the
two mixed up,arab and arabian.

They have called on tv the queen of
sheba a arab. Meaning- not black

She was arabian, a sabean,a true native,
not a arab.

Quote-
Starcky identifies the Nabatu of
southern Arabia (Pre-Khalan migration)
as their ancestors.
However different groups amongst
the Nabataeans wrote their names
in slightly different ways,
consequently archeologists are
reluctant to say that they were
all the same tribe, or that any
one group is the original Nabataeans.


_______

It looks like they could have been
from varied origins,the south,northeast,
north etc..
A mixture of arabian and arabs.
So it's not clear who was the major
group by the time the civilization
came about there,But AGAIN it's said that they are true arabs so that WOULD MEAN TO most were not black or arabian.

So i will not go
that much further with that one.
Others could say what's going on
there.

I WOULD like see the dna info of
course to get a good idea.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Firewall - first of all. the word Qataban and Qahtan are not the same. The word Qataban however has been linked by certain scholars to the Qataa' or Qudaa' tribe of Himyarites who like the Kahlan and other tribes came from the Qahtan.

The word Arab according to most sources comes from the ancestor YARAB or Yarub bin Yashjub bin Qahtan. That is why the majority of historians refer to the Qahtan people as Aab of the Arabs.

I HOPE THAT HELPS!

Qahtan is a generic name traditionally for the ancient Sabaeans an Afro-Arabian people that later settled in the north becoming known as the Nabataeans or Kedar or Adnanites. These people settled in Syria as well and that is how they THE SYRIANS came to adopt their language and become known as Aramaeans.

The original "Aram" land of THE ARABS however was in the far south and had nothing to do with Syria and Lebanon. Let us not also confuse the later Roman or half-Roman inhabitants of Nabataean area with the true Nabataean an Arab people who looked like other Arabs who were not mixed with Syrians or Romans.

When I am talking about Arab I am making a distinction from people who just SPEAK ARABIC and the original ARABS who trace their origin without exception from Qahtan and from whom the Adnanites in fact descended.

When I speak of Nabataean I am speaking of the original group of people for which the word Nabit came to mean black just like the Syrian al- Dhahabi SAID!

The original Nabataean or Nebaoith as they are called in the Biblical book of Genesis were related to Dumah (Adummatu/Thamud and Kedar and Tema or Tayma etc the latter having been the village of the TAYYI.

All of these folks also known as Kedar in late Hebraic sources were considered black, just as the Syrians considered them black.

The present black Haweit'at of Jordan and Petra still claim descent from the Nabataeans or Nabit for which reason the name NABIT HAD COME TO MEAN BLACK.


We know from the skeletal evidence what time the Levant non-Arab people came into Arabia. The original ARABS and the peoples of Nubia and the Horn were THE SAME!

Now if you or anyone else will be kind and lucky enough to please give me the name of one major or minor Arab tribe LIVING TODAY that was not originally referred to as BLACK!

And I will be happy to show you the way they were originally described with the bibliographical source.

Otherwise, as with the BERBERS - you are WASTING MY TIME.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

Black man? To be or not to be.


Now I'd say here is some real eye candy for you. :)lol!


Is this Hijazi man of the tall muscular (obviously) Hawaziin (Rabi'a) Arabs a "non-black" (probable descendant from Ubaid neolithic giants of the Eridu MESOPOTAMIAN civilization)?!

OK - if you say so. After all, black is in the eye of the beholder. It was painted from real life in the 19th century by an Austrian artist, if I'm remembering correctly, visiting Hijaz.


 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:




Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly.

---

It's right above in the article you just quoted me on. The allele is SLC24A5 that help codes for lighter skin, also there are associated SNP haplotypes derived associated with it. I don't have the full study but it is discussed in the very thread I linked above.

quote:

---

AS I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that genetics have shown Ethiopians and Ancient Egyptians and FULANI, NUBIANS, Beja and other BLACKS have had intermixture of some sort with Levant people FAR EARLIER THAN THIS.

---

The study I cited said no such thing since it only deals with Ethiopians. The Egyptians no doubt as they were right next to the Levant though I don't know about Nubians or Beja and definitely not the Fulani who still lived all the way in west Africa during that time.

quote:

---

That doesn't mean there was a population of nay significance of white ARABS in Arabia. Sorry if I am missing something here.

---

It didn't say anything specifically about 'white' people, though there were folks with relatively lighter skin in Arabia. The skeletal record in ancient times already shows a presence of non-tropical or colder adapted folks so it is not far fetched. As for just how "significant" their population is, I don't know.

quote:

---

That doesn't mean there was a population of nay significance of white ARABS in Arabia. Sorry if I am missing something here.

---

My point exactly. This shows that Arabia was NOT "all" black during that time and that there were tribes of non-indigenes from the north that infiltrated the peninsula.

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During what time and what tribes of non-indigenes are you talking about, Djehuti and where did they go? What skeletal record shows fairr-skinned people in Arabia, or wherever your suggesting. We have to be careful when we are claiming things especially without sources. Where did they go and when? I'm not saying they didn't mind you but you are speaking as if you have some proof of non-black tribes in Arabia at 1000BC. And why would they be non-indigenes if they were a "tribe" that infiltrated so early.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:

Black man?

[/URL]
To be or not to be.



 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Well this person disagrees.


Quote-
In modern Saudi Arabia, the original Arabs (the Black ones) have been relegated to the deserts and the tribal areas in the south at the Yemeni boarder. The preponderance of haplogroup "J" in the Saudi Arabian DNA, suggests that these areas were purposefully avoided or severely under-represented when doing the DNA survey. For it is extremely unlikely that these Qahtan and Wayla tribesmen from the Najran area, close to the border with Yemen, would be of haplogroup "J".

Still the use of the word arab is not native and the real arab are the invaders.


Or you look at it this way,they are arabized arabians if they really came from the south and many do not look black by the way,so that tells something.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
The terms Qahtanite and Qahtani (Arabic: قحطان‎; transliterated: Qahtan or Qaḥṭān or Kahtan) refer to one of the main groups of Arab peoples either originating in, or claiming genealogical descent from the southern extent of the Arabian Peninsula, especially from Yemen.

The Qahtani people are divided into the two sub-groups of Himyar and Kahlan, with the Himyar branch as Himyarites and the Kahlan branch as Kahlanis. Another dominant group among the Arab people are variously known as Adnan, Ma'add or Nizar.


Arab tradition maintains that a semi-legendary ancestral figure named Qahtan and his 24 sons are the progenitors of the southern inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula known as Qahtani.

Early Islamic historians identified Qahtan with the Yoqtan (Joktan) son of Eber of the Hebrew Bible (Gen. 10:25-29).[citation needed]


Among the sons of Qahtan are noteworthy figures like A'zaal (believed by Arabs to have been the original name of Sana'a, although its current name has been attested since the Iron Age) and Hadhramaut. Another son is Ya'rub, and his son Yashjub is the father of 'Abd Shams, who is also called Saba. All Yemeni tribes trace their ancestry back to this "Saba", either through Himyar or Kahlan, his two sons.

The Qahtani people are divided into the two sub-groups of Himyar and Kahlan, who represent the settled Arabs of the south and their nomadic kinsmen (nomads). The Kahlan division of Qahtan consists of 4 subgroups: the Ta' or Tayy, the Azd group which invaded Oman, the 'Amila-Judham group of Palestine, and the Hamdan-Madhhij group who mostly remain in Yemen.

The Kahlan branch includes the following tribes:Azd ( Aus and Khazraj, Bariq, Ghassan, Khuza'a and Daws), Hamdan, Khath'am, Bajflah, Madhhij, Murad, Zubaid and Nakh', Ash'ar, Lakhm and Kindah.

__________
Sounds like this group connected thier genealogical to the south.
A made up genealogical to steal arabian history
They are invaders and not true arabians these are arabs


Himyarite are the early arab invaders of the region has well it seems that settled in the south
or these became arabized folks when the whites came in and took over theregion of time,either way.


Arabs are the invaders dana.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
5. The Arab genealogies were written over 2000 years after the birth of Ishmael, and they did not have reliable genealogies past Muhammad’s forefather Adnan.

# Genealogical information was so scarce and unreliable that Muhammad needed a “revelation” to find out he was from Mudar


The Arabic Language
The Arabic Language


Many of them here do not look black too me.
Arab traditional dance of the Tribe QAHTAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rfhhNQK0iY

True arab or whatever,Arabs are the invaders dana.
There is no way to get around this.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Nabataeans were true arabs.

So the they were not black,of course you may have had some arabized blacks in this civilization.

The meaning true arab MEANS invaders.The Qahtan were the early white invaders of southern arabia.These are whites that became known has arab first,that's why they are called true arabs.
Some of the blacks came into this group these arabian nativees became apart of the the true arabs.
Any black in this group were the first that became arabized.
This groups conqured or arabized the northern white invaders of arabia called Adnanite .

Qahtan and Adnanite are the white invaders of arabia and the former was the first to try steal or hook thier history to southern arabia/or yemen.


Yes it could be confusing and hard to take for some,but this looks like the case from what i interpreted.




Qahtan: thin face and slender body and of medium height


Here's photos

Semitic ( Adnan )




Semitic ( Qahtan )

 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
The term arab did not come from southern arabia or the native there.

Himyarite were arabs not arabian,of course there were s blacks living in the kingdom because the southern part was conqured by these invaders.

These were nomads,the blacks of southern arabia were not nomads.Some of invaders THAT CAME TO THE SOUTH became civilized TO A POINT because of the blacks in yemen.


Etymology
The earliest documented use of the word "Arab" to refer to a people appears in the Monolith Inscription, an Akkadian language record of the 9th century BC Assyrian Conquest of Syria (Arabs had formed part of a coalition of forces opposed to Assyria). Listed among the booty captured by the army of king Shalmaneser III of Assyria in the Battle of Qarqar are 1000 camels of "Gi-in-di-bu'u the ar-ba-a-a" or "[the man] Gindibu belonging to the ʕarab" (ar-ba-a-a being an adjectival nisba of the noun ʕarab).

The most popular Arab account holds that the word 'Arab' came from an eponymous father called Yarab, who was supposedly the first to speak Arabic. Al-Hamdani had another view; he states that Arabs were called GhArab (West in Semitic) by Mesopotamians because Arabs resided to the west of Mesopotamia; the term was then corrupted into Arab. Yet another view is held by Al-Masudi that the word Arabs was initially applied to the Ishmaelites of the "Arabah" valley.

In Biblical etymology, "Arab" (in Hebrew Arvi {{he:ערבי}}) comes both from the desert origin of the people (Arava means wilderness) and/or from the concept of mixed people (Arev-rav - a large group of mixed people). The root a-r-b several additional meanings in Semitic languages including "west/sunset," "desert," "mingle," "merchant," "raven" and are "comprehensible" with all of these having varying degrees of relevance to the emergence of the name. It is also possible that some forms were metathetical from ʿ-B-R "moving around" (Arabic ʿ-B-R "traverse"), and hence, it is alleged, "nomadic."

Identity
The early Arabs were the tribes of Northern Arabia speaking proto Arabic dialects. Although since early days other people became Arabs through an Arabization process that could mean intermarriage with Arabs, adopting the Arabic language and culture, or both. For example, the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids which originated from Southern Semitic speaking Yemen made a major contribution in the creation of the Arabic language. The same process happened all over the Arab world after the spread of Islam by the mixing of Arabs with several other peoples. The Arab cultures went through a mixing process. Therefore every Arab country has cultural specificities which constitute a cultural mix which also originate in local novelties achieved after the arabization took place. However, all Arab countries do also share a common culture in most Aspects: Arts (music, literature, poetry, calligraphy...), Cultural products (Handicrafts, carpets, henne, bronze carving...), Social behaviour and relations (Hospitality, codes of conduct among friends and family...), Customs and superstitions, Some dishes (Shorba, Mloukhia), Traditional clothing, Architecture...

# Genealogical: someone who can trace his or her ancestry to the tribes of Arabia – the original inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula – and the Syrian Desert. This was the definition used in medieval times, for example by Ibn Khaldun, but has decreased in importance over time, as a portion of those of Arab ancestry lost their links with their ancestors' motherland. In the modern era, however, DNA tests have at times proved reliable in identifying those of Arab genealogical descent. For example, it has been found that the frequency of the "Arab marker" Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries.


Semitic origin
There is a consensus that the Semitic peoples originated from Arabian peninsula. It should be pointed out that these settlers were not Arabs or Arabic speakers.


Early history
The first written attestation of the ethnonym "Arab" occurs in an Assyrian inscription of 853 BCE, where Shalmaneser III lists a King Gindibu of mâtu arbâi (Arab land) as among the people he defeated at the Battle of Karkar. Some of the names given in these texts are Aramaic, while others are the first attestations of Ancient North Arabian dialects. In fact several different ethnonyms are found in Assyrian texts that are conventionally translated "Arab": Arabi, Arubu, Aribi and Urbi.


The relation of ʿarab and ʾaʿrāb is complicated further by the notion of "lost Arabs" al-ʿArab al-ba'ida mentioned in the Qur'an as punished for their disbelief. All contemporary Arabs were considered as descended from two ancestors, Qahtan and Adnan.


Versteegh (1997) is uncertain whether to ascribe this distinction to the memory of a real difference of origin of the two groups, but it is certain that the difference was strongly felt in early Islamic times. Even in Islamic Spain there was enmity between the Qays of the northern and the Kalb of the southern group. The so-called Sabaean or Himyarite language described by Abū Muhammad al-Hasan al-Hamdānī (died 946) appears to be a special case of language contact between the two groups, an originally north Arabic dialect spoken in the south, and influenced by Old South Arabian.[citation needed][dubious – discuss]

Classical kingdoms
Proto-Arabic, or Ancient North Arabian, texts give a clearer picture of the Arabs' emergence. The earliest are written in variants of epigraphic south Arabian musnad script, including the 8th century BCE Hasaean inscriptions of eastern Saudi Arabia, the 6th century BCE Lihyanite texts of southeastern Saudi Arabia and the Thamudic texts found throughout Arabia and the Sinai (not in reality connected with Thamud).

The Nabataeans were nomadic newcomers[108][dubious – discuss] who moved into territory vacated by the Edomites – Semites who settled the region centuries before them. Their early inscriptions were in Aramaic, but gradually switched to Arabic, and since they had writing, it was they who made the first inscriptions in Arabic. The Nabataean Alphabet was adopted by Arabs to the south, and evolved into modern Arabic script around the 4th century. This is attested by Safaitic inscriptions (beginning in the 1st century BCE) and the many Arabic personal names in Nabataean inscriptions. From about the 2nd century BCE, a few inscriptions from Qaryat al-Faw (near Sulayyil) reveal a dialect which is no longer considered "proto-Arabic", but pre-classical Arabic. Five Syriac inscriptions mentioning Arabs have been found at Sumatar Harabesi, one of which has been dated to the 2nd century CE.

The Hebrew Bible occasionally refers to Aravi peoples (or variants thereof), translated as "Arab" or "Arabian." The scope of the term at that early stage is unclear, but it seems to have referred to various desert-dwelling Semitic tribes in the Syrian Desert and Arabia.[citation needed] Arab tribes came into conflict with the Assyrians during the reign of the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal, and he records military victories against the powerful Qedar tribe among others.



Assyrian horsemen pursue defeated Arabs


# ^ A history of the Babylonians and Assyrians, George Stephen Goodspeed‏. p.54

# ^ Cragg, 1991, p. 13.

# ^ "Arabia on Encyclopedia Britannica". Retrieved July 20, 2012.

# ^ a b Jan Retsö The Arabs in antiquity: their history from the Assyrians to the Umayyads, Routledge, 2003, ISBN 0-7007-1679-3, p. 105, 119, 125-127.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
The origin of true arab is not even in southern arabia or yemen.

The arab white invader identity was form not there but in central arabia.
_________________________


Early history
The Arabs historically originate as a Central Semitic group in the Arabian peninsula. Their expansion beyond Arabia and the Syrian desert is due to the Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries. Iraq was conquered in 633 CE, Palestine between 636 and 640 CE.


Central Semitic languages

The Central Semitic languages are a proposed intermediate group of Semitic languages, comprising Arabic and Northwest Semitic languages (which include Aramaic, Ugaritic, and the Canaanite languages of Hebrew and Phoenician). In this reckoning Cental Semitic itself is one of three divisions of Semitic along with East Semitic (Akkadian) and South Semitic (South Arabian, and the Semitic languages of Ethiopia).


* Sabatino Moscati (1980). An Introduction to Comparative Grammar of Semitic Languages Phonology and Morphology. Harrassowitz Verlag. ISBN 3-447-00689-7.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Native arabians,not arabs.

Old South Arabian
Old South Arabian (or Epigraphic South Arabian, or Ṣayhadic) was a group of four closely related languages formerly spoken in the far southern portion of the Arabian Peninsula. There were a number of other Old South Arabian languages (e.g. Awsānian), of which very little evidence survived, however. All those languages were older than Classical Arabic, which developed around the 4th century.


The Old South Arabian languages were originally classified (partly on the basis of geography) as South Semitic, along with Arabic, Modern South Arabian and Ethiopian Semitic; more recently however, a new classification has come in use which places Old South Arabian, along with Arabic, Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite in a Central Semitic group; leaving Modern South Arabian and Ethiopic in a separate group. This new classification is based on Arabic, Old South Arabic and Northwest Semitic (Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite) sharing an innovation in the verbal system, an imperfect taking the form *yVqtVl-u (the other groups have *yVqattVl); Nebes showed that Sabaean at least had the form yVqtVl in the imperfect.

Even though has been now accepted that the four main languages be considered independent, they are clearly closely related linguistically and derive from a common ancestor because they share certain morphological innovations. One of the most important isoglosses retained in all four languages is the suffixed definite article - (h)n. There are however significant differences between the languages.

The four main Old South Arabian languages were Sabaean, Minaeic (or Madhabic), Qatabanic, and Hadramitic. According to Alice Faber (based on Hetzron's work), together with Ethiopian Semitic languages (such as the contemporary Ge'ez language) they formed the western branch of the South Semitic languages.

Languages

Sabaean: the language of the kingdom of Saba and later also of Ḥimyar; also documented in the Ethiopian kingdom of Da'amot; very well documented, ca. 6000 Inscriptions

# Minaean (also called Madhabian): the language of the city states in al-Jawf − with the exception of Ḥaram − especially the later sparsely populated state of Ma'in (Recorded from the 8th until 2nd century BC). Inscriptions have also been found also outside Ma'īn in the commercial colonies of Dedan and Madā'in Ṣāliḥ, in Egypt and also on Delos. (ca. 500 inscriptions)

Qatabānian: the language of the kingdom of Qatabān, recorded from the 5th century BC until the 2nd century (barely 2000 inscriptions)

# Ḥaḑramitic (or Haḑramitic): the language of Ḥaḑramaut, with an additional inscription from the Greek island of Delos. 5th century BC until the 4th century AD. (ca. 1000 inscriptions)


# ^ Leonid Kogan and Andrey Korotayev: Sayhadic Languages (Epigraphic South Arabian). Semitic Languages. London: Routledge, 1997. Pg. 221.

# ^ Dialekte nach: Peter Stein: Zur Dialektgeographie des Sabäischen. In: Journal of Semitic Studies XLIX/2. Manchester 2004


# ^ Faber, Alice (1997). "Genetic Subgrouping of the Semitic Languages". In Robert Hetzron. The Semitic Languages (1st ed. ed.). London: Routledge. p. 7. ISBN 0-415-05767-1.

# ^ Sabaean inscription (C 325), dated 669 of the Ḥimyarite era (=559 or 554 CE) (Leonid Kogan and Andrey Korotayev: Sayhadic Languages (Epigraphic South Arabian). Semitic Languages. London: Routledge, 1997. pg. 321).
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
These are arabs.
# "Perishing Arabs": These are the ancients of whose history little is known. They include ʿĀd, Thamud, Tasm, Jadis, Imlaq and others. Jadis and Tasm perished because of genocide. ʿĀd and Thamud perished because of their decadence. Some people in the past doubted their existence, but Imlaq is the singular form of 'Amaleeq and is probably synonymous to the biblical Amalek.

# "Perishing Arabs": These are the ancients of whose history little is known. They include ʿĀd, Thamud, Tasm, Jadis, Imlaq and others. Jadis and Tasm perished because of genocide. ʿĀd and Thamud perished because of their decadence. Some people in the past doubted their existence, but Imlaq is the singular form of 'Amaleeq and is probably synonymous to the biblical Amalek.

# "Arabized Arabs": They allegedly originated from the progeny of Ishmael (Ismā'īl), son of the biblical patriarch and Islamic prophet, Abraham (Ibrāhīm), and were also called Adnan.


The several different Bedouin tribes throughout Arabian history are traditionally regarded as having emerged from two main branches: the Rabi`ah, from which amongst others the Banu Hanifa emerged, and the Mudhar, from which amongst others the Banu Kinanah (and later Muhammad's own tribe, the Quraysh) emerged.
_________

Keep in mind some native arabians down the road became apart of these groups.
You know, arabized.

Keep in mind some arabians back then had arab admixture when the arabs overtime came or some arabs just became arabianized.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Nabataeans were true arabs. So they were not black, of course you may have had some arabized blacks in this civilization.

The meaning true arab MEANS invaders. The Qahtan were the early white invaders of southern arabia. These are whites that became known has Arab first, that's why they are called true Arabs.
Some of the blacks came into this group these Arabian natives became apart of the the true Arabs.

Any black in this group were the first that became arabized. This groups conquered or arabized the northern white invaders of arabia called Adnanite.

---

Firewall, you had me fooled: I thought that you were a delusional European Albino, and now I see that you are either a delusional Turk Albino or a delusional Turk Mulatto.

Ha,ha,ha,ha: very funny the nonsense you post.

Idiot: the Nabataeans first appeared in the Southern Levant around CE 37 – c. 100, no one knows who the were or where they came from, but here is a clue: THEY SPOKE ARAMAIC!

Aramaic is the language of the Amorites, of which the Hebrews were a tribe.

The Amorites originated in Southern Anatolia/Northern Syria: They later founded many kingdoms in that area, one was called Aram, (usurping the Phoenicians), they also came to rule Mesopotamia, usurping the Sumerians/Chaldeans.

These people together became known as The Arameans or Aramaeans.

This is what Arameans looked like:






Firewall - WHERE ARE YOUR WHITE PEOPLE???

Ha,ha,ha,ha:

BTW - Does anyone know where these Turk monkeys and their Mulattoes, got the nonsense about Arabian genealogy?
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Mike stick to the europeans.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
I am not white or Mulatto turk,maybe you ARE Idiot.
All your other info is wrong mike by the way.
Has for Arameans.


The Arameans, or Aramaeans, (Aramaic: ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ‎, ארמיא ; ʼaramáyé) were a Northwest Semitic semi-nomadic and pastoralist people who originated in what is now modern Syria (Biblical Aram) during the Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age. Large groups migrated to Mesopotamia where they intermingled with the native Akkadian (Assyrian and Babylonian) population. A large proportion of Syriac Christians in modern Syria still espouse an Aramean identity to this day, though few now speak the Western Aramaic language.











______
Nope mike,these folks are not black.
Idiot.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

During what time and what tribes of non-indigenes are you talking about, Djehuti and where did they go? What skeletal record shows fairr-skinned people in Arabia, or wherever your suggesting. We have to be careful when we are claiming things especially without sources. Where did they go and when? I'm not saying they didn't mind you but you are speaking as if you have some proof of non-black tribes in Arabia at 1000BC. And why would they be non-indigenes if they were a "tribe" that infiltrated so early. [/QB]

---

You missing the point dana.
The real arabs into this part of the world came around 1000b.c.
Over time they took over or conqured the native population of arabia and the southern part and many became arabized.

This is group the arabs of today come from while the black ones come from the native population and other original groups.

The blacks arabs are arabized,not true arabs.
The real arabs are the white invaders.

It's time to face the hard cold facts,and when you do, it will be truly liberating.
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Speaking of europeans,what do you think of this mike?

Black european royalty,MIKE'S FAVORITE SUBJECT.
He-HE-HE.

Modern black european royalty.

Princess Angela of Liechtenstein

Princess Angela of Liechtenstein (3 February 1958) is the wife of Prince Maximilian of Liechtenstein. Princess Angela and her son, Prince Alfons (b. London, 18 May 2001), are the highest ranked black members of a reigning European dynasty.








Maybe mike wants to live in Liechtenstein.

Liechtenstein




palace-of-liechtenstein









Prince Maximilian and Princess Angela have one child:







Princess Angela of Liechtenstein
Black Women: Your PRINCE Will Come - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6oxp7uM_HA
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
I am not white or Mulatto turk,maybe you ARE Idiot.
All your other info is wrong mike by the way.
Has for Arameans.


The Arameans, or Aramaeans, (Aramaic: ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ‎, ארמיא ; ʼaramáyé) were a Northwest Semitic semi-nomadic and pastoralist people who originated in what is now modern Syria (Biblical Aram) during the Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age. Large groups migrated to Mesopotamia where they intermingled with the native Akkadian (Assyrian and Babylonian) population. A large proportion of Syriac Christians in modern Syria still espouse an Aramean identity to this day, though few now speak the Western Aramaic language.









______
Nope mike,these folks are not black.
Idiot.

---

You're DAMN right they're NOT Black:

THEY'RE TURKS AND TURK MULATTOES FOOL!

WHAT HAVE THEY TO DO WITH ARABS - FOOL!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damn you Turk monkeys are stupid, here is a history lesson in pictures fool. (Keep an eye on the hat).




Portrait of the Ottoman (Turkic) Sultan Mahmud II




Also a Turk




Ottoman (Turk) Soldiers.

The Black one is Egyptian.




King of Egypt - Also a Turk.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
BTW Firewall (Getting back to the Arabs):

If you wonder how "Pale" monkeys like yourself came to rule in Arabia:

You can thank this "Murderous" Monkey:


 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Mike and is name calling.
Stick to the topic mike.
Arameans are not turks,but they are white.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Mike and is name calling.
Stick to the topic mike.
Arameans are not turks,but they are white.

---

Damn you're stupid!

Arameans are original people in Anatolia, they have lots of stela. Show me Albinos (Turk or otherwise) who look like that fool.

BTW - I call Europeans and the like Albinos for two reasons:

1) That's what they are.

2) For being such degenerate liars, they do not deserve a euphemism.

I call you a fool because that is what you are.

You post nonsense, and support it with other nonsense, when you support it at all.

Do you really think that deserves respect????
 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Yeah this is turk.




These are the true arabs.
arabiangirl




azimuth -

another thing worth mentioning is that Arabs in middle of Arabian Peninsula had the purest Arabic language than the ones in Yemen and Iraq, because Yemen and Iraq had lots of contact with non-Arab nations such as Africa, Persia and Romans. while the Arabs in middle of Arabia had much less contact thats because middle of Arabia is mainly Desert and was not attractive to non-arabic nations and were more isolated and their language was not affected and kept pure, thats one of the reasons why Arabs from Big cities such as Makkah used to sent their kids to live their childhood in the desert with the bedouin people, to learn the pure Arabic language.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Firewall, just to show you that I am a nice person, I will educate you so that you won't make a fool of yourself again.

The ancients had certain conventions as to how they represented racial types in sculpture.


THESE ARE BLACKS.




THESE ARE WHITES.




THESE ARE MULATTOES.



 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
The Arab marker IS J-P58,THE WHITE ARABS ARE THE TRUE ARABS.


Arameans come from Syria not Anatolia.


Mike is frustrated that's why he has to called folks names.
Like i said i am not white or Mulatto turk or european.
I am NOT ANY OF those MIKE.

His views do not hold up.
It's Pseudo science.

He is a fool.

Anyway debating this here is getting no where and the proof i posted is above for all to see and it's up to them to make thier minds.

There is nothing much i can say so i will leave with this,the original arabs and hebrews were/are not black,and the quicker some black folks get this in heads the better it will be.

Peace.
Bye.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
These are the true arabs.
arabiangirl

---

I'm getting tired of saying this:

DAMN YOU'RE STUPID!

Fool - Arabia is overwhelmingly HOT, HOT, DESERT!



THE UV (Ultra Violet) AT MECCA IS THE MAX. OF 11 or 12 (depending on scale) almost every day of the year.




.


Fool - Please tell me how that girl could have "EVOLVED" in Arabia?
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Anyone with knowledge of who it is that is filling these poor Albino fools, and their Mulattoes heads with the nonsense that they are native to Arabia, please let me know, they need to be stopped. Before you know it, those fools will stop covering up from head to toe, like they absolutely MUST, and boom, they're done for!

Anyone with knowledge of them, please show this picture to them:




.

Tell them that when they can go out into the desert, and live shirtless like this, then they are truly Arabs.

Those that can't, are simply liars and pretenders.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Himyarite

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)


_________________________________________________

Sabaean



Yemen, Sabaean bronze head of a youth, 2nd Century AD
sanctuary of Madrah at Ghayman






British Museum -(detail) Calcite statue of a seated woman



___________________________________________

Qataban coin, South Arabia, Unknown Ruler, Late 2nd - 1st Century B.C.


Qataban coin, South Arabia, Unknown Ruler, Late 2nd - 1st Century B.C.

 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Himyarite

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

Where is this bust located?

---

National Museum of Yemen in Sana'a


.__________________


^^^ Mike notice the hair, does he qualify ?
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

Where is this bust located?

---

National Museum of Yemen in Sana'a

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

Where is this bust located?

---

National Museum of Yemen in Sana'a

---

Give the link please, no telling where that came from. As you can see, it has no historical support.
We know how the Albinos like to make fake statues.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:

Sabaeans were not arabs,they
were arabian,just like you said.
Anyway when you mention this
group Qahtan,it almost reminds
me of this group or name
Qatabanian.
So sorry i was not paying attention,and
you got me there,but i got you with
your past comments above.


Of course this is not a gotcha game,and
we should help each other out when
mistakes happen.

Anyway back to the point.
One is arab,and the other was
pre-arab,or arabian.
The true or original natives
of the arabian
peninsula.

SO we kinda saying the same thing.
I think overall on this we are on
the same basic page if you still
believe in your past comments
from another thread that i
posted above.


Arabs.
Qahtanite
The terms Qahtanite and Qahtani
(Arabic: قحطا
ن
‎; transliterated: Qahtan or
Qaḥ
ṭān or Kahtan) refer to one of the
main groups of Arab peoples
either originating in, or
claiming genealogical descent
from the southern extent of
the Arabian Peninsula, especially
from Yemen.


Arabians.
One of the four better-documented
languages of the Old South Arabian
(or "Ṣayhadic") sub-group
of South Semitic, Qatabānian
(or Qatabānic) was spoken
mainly but not exclusively in the
kingdom of Qatabän,located in
central Yemen. The language is
attested between 500 BC and 200
AD. Some two thousand inscriptions
are known written in the Ancient
South Arabian Monumental Script,
known as Musnad. These inscriptions
are mainly found in Wādī
Bayhān and Wādī
Ḥārib to the south-east
of Ma'rib, and from the plateau to
the south of that area. Qatabanian
inscriptions increase after the
beginning of the 4th century BC
when the Sabaeans ceased to dominate
the area, and Qatabān became
an independent kingdom. Qatabanian
was spoken in an area across the
kingdom of Qatabān as far
asJabal al-'Awd (near Zafar) in the
southwest, and if we are to believe
the Greek and Latin writers, it went
as far as Bāb al-Mandab on the
Red Sea. At the end of the 2nd century
AD, Saba' and Ḥaḑramawt
finally defeated Qatabān, and the inscriptions ended.

---

• al-'Arab ul-'Aribah--South Arabian "Kushites" of the oldest purest civilization and blood lines)
• al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah--Northerners who entered Arabia mixed in upon the southerners adopting language and culture.
• al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah--Foreigners outside of Arabia with no Arab ancestry who after Arab conquests were assimilated and adopted Arab culture.

The Sabaeans would therefore be al-Aribah or Qahtani Arabs of the south while other Quraysh (Muhammad's tribe) would be al-Muta'aribah or Adnani tribes of the north. And then you have folks like Syrian and Iraqi Arabs who are 'Arab' in name and culture only and so al-Musta'rib.
 

---

Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 
Oh,last thing.

I did read any news replies here except lioness.
Don't bother replying mike,i have not seen your recent replies except maybe the word stupid by accident when i was heading toward lioness reply,but that could have been a old reply,who knows.
I am not going back to find out.

To correct something else in the past post.
The real Arabs do belong to the haplogroup J,so i disagree with that they do not,but they belong to the later subclades,just like the white hebrews/jews.
Some blacks could belong to J just like some whites,but like i said before it depend on the J dna we are talking about.

Of course the original J IS BLACK IN ORIGIN AND IT'S SUBCLADE IT SEEMS IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATE OF ORIGIN AND ORIGIN OF AREA IT CAME FROM ,BUT LATER J1 AND IT'S SUBCLADES?NO,NO.

They are white in origin.

So the comment FROM realhistory from the guy/gal does agree with dana,but i disagree with both.


There are some confusion about arabs and hebrews and overtime i sort it out to the point that it is much more clear now to me,but mike and those of his views or of that ilk take advantage of those that have not sort it out or still maybe confused.

He knows that the real hebrews and arabs were not black.


Now a correction from another post of mine.

I MEANT to SAY that the arabs origin is from northern arabia,not central arabia.


This give even more of a idea that they are not true natives of arabia at all,and these white invaders came from outside the area right mike?
Right stupid.


Happy reading mike.

Arabs
Identity
The early Arabs were the tribes of Northern Arabia speaking proto Arabic dialects. Although since early days other people became Arabs through an Arabization process that could mean intermarriage with Arabs, adopting the Arabic language and culture, or both. For example, the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids which originated from Southern Semitic speaking Yemen made a major contribution in the creation of the Arabic language. The same process happened all over the Arab world after the spread of Islam by the mixing of Arabs with several other peoples. The Arab cultures went through a mixing process. Therefore every Arab country has cultural specificities which constitute a cultural mix which also originate in local novelties achieved after the arabization took place. However, all Arab countries do also share a common culture in most Aspects: Arts (music, literature, poetry, calligraphy...), Cultural products (Handicrafts, carpets, henne, bronze carving...), Social behaviour and relations (Hospitality, codes of conduct among friends and family...), Customs and superstitions, Some dishes (Shorba, Mloukhia), Traditional clothing, Architecture...


Zakar-Baal

quote-
Half-right, like I said, Arabic didn't come from Yemen, it came from further north. Thus the original Arabs were not from Yemen. But Saudis aren't Arabised Yemenites, Saudis are the people that spread the language into the peninsula. Before Yemenites spoke Arabic they spoke a southern Semitic language.


The real arabs.


Azamat

quote-
Since when has "Arab" denoted a specific ethnicity, not to mention a racially distinctive group? Maghrebi 'Arabs' look substantially different from Peninsular Arabs, who in turn look different from Levantine Arabs also. Each represent a different racial stock, descended from different populations.

I think that princess Ameerah al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia is attractive, and being a Saudi she is probably one of the "purer" Arabs out there.












The Arab marker IS J-P58,THE WHITE ARABS ARE THE TRUE ARABS.


quote-
Haplogroup J is defined by a DNA marker known as M304. Everyone who carries the M304 marker today descends from a common paternal ancestor who lived roughly 30,000 years ago in the Middle East. Members of haplogroup J-M304 are found throughout Eurasia, the Middle East, and North Africa. Haplogroup J diverges into two main subhaplogroups, J1-M267 and J2-M172, with J1-M267 typical of eastern African and Arabian groups and J2-M172 more dominant in southern European and southwest Asian (Indian) populations.


quote-
The frequency of Haplogroup J drops with increasing distance from its peak in the Middle East (see Figure 6). The highest frequency is found in the Arabian Peninsula, in Yemen (87%) and Qatar (67%). The Levant region, around present day Lebanon, Israel and Iraq, has very high frequencies around 50%. The levels of Haplogroup J continue to drop in the surrounding regions. For example, Anatolia (present day Turkey) has ~40%, the Caucasus ~33%, Iran ~25% and Egypt ~25%. North Africa and East Africa also harbor significant levels (30-40%) of Haplogroup J. While Haplogroup J is found at moderate frequencies in South Europe and regions adjacent to the Mediterranean Sea (5-25%, e.g. Greece ~20%), it is infrequent in North Europe (e.g. 1-5% in UK, Germany and Russia). Haplogroup J is not observed in the Far East (e.g. 0% in China, Korea). It is likely that geographic features helped to create this distribution pattern, where deserts (e.g. the Sahara) and mountain ranges (e.g. the Himalayas) formed barriers and seas (e.g. the Mediterranean) facilitated diffusion.

quote-
Haplogroup J1 appears at high frequencies among populations of the Middle East, North Africa, and Ethiopia (Thomas et al. 1999). J1 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Muslims from Arabia since the 6th century CE.

Haplogroup J1 is most frequent in Arabs of the southern Levant, i.e. Palestinian Arabs (38.4%) (Semino et al.) and Arab Bedouins (62% and 82% in Negev desert Bedouins). It is also very common among other Arabic-speaking populations, such as those of Algeria (35%), Syria (30%), Iraq (33%), the Sinai Peninsula, and the Arabian Peninsula. The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic countries with mainly non-Arabic countries, such as Turkey and Iran, yet it is found at low frequency among the populations of those countries, as well as in Cyprus and Sicily. It entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic with the Neolithic Revolution and spread of agriculture, where it is found mainly among Semitic speakers (e.g. Amhara 33.3%, but Oromo 3.8%). It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 30.1%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004). Researchers believe that marker DYS388=17 (Y DNA tests for STR - Short Tandem Repeater) is linked with the later expansion of Arabian tribes in the southern Levant and northern Africa (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). Haplogroup J1 is found almost exclusively among modern populations of Southwest Asia, North Africa, and East Africa, essentially delineating the region popularly known as the Middle East and associated with speakers of Semitic languages. The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East may be associated with Arabs and Phoenicians who traded and conquered in Sicily, southern Italy, Spain, Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Pakistan, or with Jews, who have historical origins in the Middle East and speak (or historically spoke) a Semitic language, though typically Haplogroup J2 is more than twice as common among Jews. In Jewish populations overall, J1 constitutes 19.0% of the Ashkenazim results and 11.9% of the Sephardic results (Semino et al. 2004)(Behar et al. 2004). Haplogroup J1 with marker DYS388=13 is a distinctive type found in eastern Anatolia (Cinnioglu et al. 2004).


For more info
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_J_28Y-DNA


The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/


Y-chromosomal Aaron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron


Anyway here is some talk about here.
Maybe mike could join and have more fun.


Which Arabs are the REAL true Arabs?


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/40004-Which-Arabs-are-the-REAL-true-Arabs


Thread: Definition of Haplogroup J1


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26703-Definition-of-Haplogroup-J1


Bye.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Himyarite

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)


_________________________________________________

Sabaean



Yemen, Sabaean bronze head of a youth, 2nd Century AD
sanctuary of Madrah at Ghayman






British Museum -(detail) Calcite statue of a seated woman



___________________________________________

Qataban coin, South Arabia, Unknown Ruler, Late 2nd - 1st Century B.C.


Qataban coin, South Arabia, Unknown Ruler, Late 2nd - 1st Century B.C.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Himyarite

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)

---

Where is this bust located?

---

Lioness failed to answer:

That means that I symbolically did this to Lioness:





I did say "symbolically".

Wouldn't touch that.

But perhaps that will teach her to stay out of it when I an correcting one of the Mutts.

Next: Uncle Mikes class # 2 on how to spot an Albino fake.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Himyarite

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)


_________________________________________________

Sabaean



Yemen, Sabaean bronze head of a youth, 2nd Century AD
sanctuary of Madrah at Ghayman






British Museum -(detail) Calcite statue of a seated woman



___________________________________________

Qataban coin, South Arabia, Unknown Ruler, Late 2nd - 1st Century B.C.


Qataban coin, South Arabia, Unknown Ruler, Late 2nd - 1st Century B.C.

---

LYING _SS - I have said again and again that the non-Arab people known as Sassanids and Parthians were mixing with Yemenites in the early centuries AD. Nevertheless the Arabs and the Sassanid Iranians were two separate people and the Himyarites are mainly still a black people represented by the Mahra bin Haidan of the Quda'a branch of the Himyarites.

Sorry for the inconvenience!


BTW all but two of these statues look like the Abyssinians. So what was your point. The Arabs TRIBES i.e inhabitants of Bilad es-Sudan (Nejd, Hijaz and Yemen) were still black.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)



Yemen, Sabaean bronze head of a youth, 2nd Century AD
sanctuary of Madrah at Ghayman




blacks not only in Arabia but in Africa who share those same features-- both facial features and hair texture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Funny thing lioness; I went to the museum site and searched for Dhamar Ali Yahbur, it came back with "0" results, HOW COULD THAT BE????

He,he,he,he,he:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Nabataeans were true arabs.

So the they were not black,of course you may have had some arabized blacks in this civilization.

The meaning true arab MEANS invaders.The Qahtan were the early white invaders of southern arabia.These are whites that became known has arab first,that's why they are called true arabs.
Some of the blacks came into this group these arabian nativees became apart of the the true arabs.
Any black in this group were the first that became arabized.
This groups conqured or arabized the northern white invaders of arabia called Adnanite .

Qahtan and Adnanite are the white invaders of arabia and the former was the first to try steal or hook thier history to southern arabia/or yemen.


Yes it could be confusing and hard to take for some,but this looks like the case from what i interpreted.




Qahtan: thin face and slender body and of medium height


Here's photos

Semitic ( Adnan )




Semitic ( Qahtan )

---

ABSOLUTELY NOT. All Qahtan - Azd Himyarite and all Adnan people were described as black as late as the 10th century. Including these descendants of the one black Anaeza who have absorbed white Georgian and Circassian women concubines.

The present ruling class wasn't called ibn SAUD for nothing.

Don't forget even Tabari refers to Shem as black.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)



Yemen, Sabaean bronze head of a youth, 2nd Century AD
sanctuary of Madrah at Ghayman




blacks not only in Arabia but in Africa who share those same features-- both facial features and hair texture.

---

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Funny thing lioness; I went to the museum site and searched for Dhamar Ali Yahbur, it came back with "0" results, HOW COULD THAT BE????

He,he,he,he,he:

---

As far as I know the National Museum of Yemen doesn't have a website not even one in arabic, go ahead , try to prove the lioness wrong

But Mike, Djehuti says the above could be straight haired blacks so why are you giving me a hard time?

---

He is correct they could be blacks i.e Himyarites who mixed with whites. What does that have to do with the fact that the Himyarites are still black. And yes some of the Mahra have wavy and curly hair.

Sorry for the inconvenience.


BTW - I asked FIREWALL to name me an Arab tribe that wasn't originally called black. The offer is for you too. If MIKE giving you a hard time - you are just WASTING OURS.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firewall:
Oh,last thing.

I did read any news replies here except lioness.
Don't bother replying mike,i have not seen your recent replies except maybe the word stupid by accident when i was heading toward lioness reply,but that could have been a old reply,who knows.
I am not going back to find out.

To correct something else in the past post.
The real Arabs do belong to the haplogroup J,so i disagree with that they do not,but they belong to the later subclades,just like the white hebrews/jews.
Some blacks could belong to J just like some whites,but like i said before it depend on the J dna we are talking about.

Of course the original J IS BLACK IN ORIGIN AND IT'S SUBCLADE IT SEEMS IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATE OF ORIGIN AND ORIGIN OF AREA IT CAME FROM ,BUT LATER J1 AND IT'S SUBCLADES?NO,NO.

They are white in origin.

So the comment FROM realhistory from the guy/gal does agree with dana,but i disagree with both.


There are some confusion about arabs and hebrews and overtime i sort it out to the point that it is much more clear now to me,but mike and those of his views or of that ilk take advantage of those that have not sort it out or still maybe confused.

He knows that the real hebrews and arabs were not black.


Now a correction from another post of mine.

I MEANT to SAY that the arabs origin is from northern arabia,not central arabia.


This give even more of a idea that they are not true natives of arabia at all,and these white invaders came from outside the area right mike?
Right stupid.


Happy reading mike.

Arabs
Identity
The early Arabs were the tribes of Northern Arabia speaking proto Arabic dialects. Although since early days other people became Arabs through an Arabization process that could mean intermarriage with Arabs, adopting the Arabic language and culture, or both. For example, the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids which originated from Southern Semitic speaking Yemen made a major contribution in the creation of the Arabic language. The same process happened all over the Arab world after the spread of Islam by the mixing of Arabs with several other peoples. The Arab cultures went through a mixing process. Therefore every Arab country has cultural specificities which constitute a cultural mix which also originate in local novelties achieved after the arabization took place. However, all Arab countries do also share a common culture in most Aspects: Arts (music, literature, poetry, calligraphy...), Cultural products (Handicrafts, carpets, henne, bronze carving...), Social behaviour and relations (Hospitality, codes of conduct among friends and family...), Customs and superstitions, Some dishes (Shorba, Mloukhia), Traditional clothing, Architecture...


Zakar-Baal

quote-
Half-right, like I said, Arabic didn't come from Yemen, it came from further north. Thus the original Arabs were not from Yemen. But Saudis aren't Arabised Yemenites, Saudis are the people that spread the language into the peninsula. Before Yemenites spoke Arabic they spoke a southern Semitic language.


The real arabs.


Azamat

quote-
Since when has "Arab" denoted a specific ethnicity, not to mention a racially distinctive group? Maghrebi 'Arabs' look substantially different from Peninsular Arabs, who in turn look different from Levantine Arabs also. Each represent a different racial stock, descended from different populations.

I think that princess Ameerah al-Taweel of Saudi Arabia is attractive, and being a Saudi she is probably one of the "purer" Arabs out there.







The Arab marker IS J-P58,THE WHITE ARABS ARE THE TRUE ARABS.


quote-
Haplogroup J is defined by a DNA marker known as M304. Everyone who carries the M304 marker today descends from a common paternal ancestor who lived roughly 30,000 years ago in the Middle East. Members of haplogroup J-M304 are found throughout Eurasia, the Middle East, and North Africa. Haplogroup J diverges into two main subhaplogroups, J1-M267 and J2-M172, with J1-M267 typical of eastern African and Arabian groups and J2-M172 more dominant in southern European and southwest Asian (Indian) populations.


Y-chromosomal Aaron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron


Anyway here is some talk about here.
Maybe mike could join and have more fun.


Which Arabs are the REAL true Arabs?




Bye.

---

In the 7th century a Maddhij leader said according to Ibn Abd Rabbihu in the Unique Necklace a fair-skinned Arab is "inconceivable' or "unthinkable".

Thus, your definition differs from that of the early Arabs.

I wonder why?

Nobody has ever said that Arabs didn't mix with other people FIREWALL so what is your point. You mention the Ghassan and Lakhmid who like their Azd ancestors are described as blacks in meidieval texts.

UR NOT GETTING IT! Arab -speakers of Syrian -J1 and the black populations called Arabs by these Syrians are not the same people. Just look at early the Syrian Arabic historians who tell us so, that fair skinned among SArabs was attributed TO SLAVE ORIGIN.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
FIREWALL -- there are no "WHITE Arabs" only WHITE ARAB-speakers.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Firewall:
[qb] Oh,last thing.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
FIREWALL- What you are not understanding is that ARAB in reality is a nationality today. However you have posted various people and have not informed of what Arab population they are derived from and that is because you do not know anything about Arabs other than those people who just speak Arabic and wear Syrian garb. You do not know, nor do you CARE about the heritage and origins of the original ethnic Arab peoples and their conquest of Syria, Iraq, North Africa and other places.

That is why you and others keep referring to genetics as if that is going to modify the origin of these BLACk peoples who were called Arab for centuries before and after Islam.




Were there ever a black people called Banu Kinaniyya or Canaanites, Firewall?

Or was that just from the imagination of "white Syrians".
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The Phoenicians or Fanikha were described as black and were the same thing as the Amalekites, Firewall. Josephus calls the latter "the Phoenician Shepherds".

Thus the Amalik, A'd or Azd and Phoenicians were the same tall black peoples of Jordan and Hijaz also known as Philistines "remnants of the Anakim of Canaan (Banu Akk (Og) of Wadi Kanawnah of Saudi Arabia.


Philistine
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
If you look at some of the Yemeni people
applying the terms "black' or "white" seems
unecessary and unscientific.

The term "true negro" is often
shot down on Egyptsearch.
Then someone comes in with "true arab"
and it's taken as a legit question.

Also, people who are brown are not
necessarily the product of ancestry
involving a light skinned European/Asian
and an African, not necessarily of so called
"mixed" ancestry
As people settled North of the African
continent some stayed in locations
the were not that far North,
not getting so much sun but also
not so little as someone form up North
therfore they would have a middle skin tone.
So even though they might have a
similar skin tone to a "mixed" peson
or "mulatto" they are not one and are
in fact more numerous than the people who are.



Ali Abdullah Saleh, was President of Yemen for nearly 33 years
was President of Yemen from 1990 to 2012.
Saleh previously served as
President of North Yemen from 1978 until unification with South Yemen in 1990.








Alaa Jarban: One of Yemen's first openly gay men





 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The Phoenicians or Fanikha were described as black and were the same thing as the Amalekites, Firewall. Josephus calls the latter "the Phoenician Shepherds".

Thus the Amalik, A'd or Azd and Phoenicians were the same tall black peoples of Jordan and Hijaz also known as Philistines "remnants of the Anakim of Canaan (Banu Akk (Og) of Wadi Kanawnah of Saudi Arabia.


Philistine
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Picture spamming modern day Middle Easterners of varied pigmentation and origin isn't going to change what the ancient and most medieval Arabs descendants of the real children of Shem and Noah looked like.


"Banu Yafi'i" bin Chesed (Khasdim) of ancient Sabaean Yemen and the hebrew Bible and book of Jubilees.

Yemen was the "India Minor" and Abyssinia was "Middle India" of the ancient world until medieval times (even Marco Polo writes of it). like Arabia in general - both were part of the "Ethiopia" of the ancient world.

Need proof visit www.afroasiatics.blogspot.com
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Bronze statue of Dhamar Ali Yahbur.
"King of Sabat"
(Himyarite Kingdom) late 3rd-early 4th century AD)



Yemen, Sabaean bronze head of a youth, 2nd Century AD
sanctuary of Madrah at Ghayman




blacks not only in Arabia but in Africa who share those same features-- both facial features and hair texture.

---

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Funny thing lioness; I went to the museum site and searched for Dhamar Ali Yahbur, it came back with "0" results, HOW COULD THAT BE????

He,he,he,he,he:

---

As far as I know the National Museum of Yemen doesn't have a website not even one in arabic, go ahead , try to prove the lioness wrong

But Mike, Djehuti says the above could be straight haired blacks so why are you giving me a hard time?

---

He is correct they could be blacks i.e Himyarites who mixed with whites. What does that have to do with the fact that the Himyarites are still black. And yes some of the Mahra have wavy and curly hair.

---

He didn't say "mixed with whites"
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
OK how about mixed with "fair-skinned Eurasiatic people." in any case most Afro-Asiatics i.e. "hamitic" people of the ancient world having rither lived and/or traded since mesolithic times in and with various parts of Asia have been absorbing non-woolly haired non-African types.

Get it. Fulani included! They still use cattle only found in India today.

Black Anatolia (Turkey) pre Bronze Age

I'm sorry you can't stomach that.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Picture spamming modern day Middle Easterners of varied pigmentation and origin isn't going to change what the ancient and most medieval Arabs descendants of the real children of Shem and Noah looked like.


"Banu Yafi'i" bin Chesed (Khasdim) of ancient Sabaean Yemen and the hebrew Bible and book of Jubilees.

Yemen was the "India Minor" and Abyssinia was Middle India of the ancient world until medieval times (even Marco Polo writes of it). like Arabia in general both were part of the "Ethiopia" of the ancient world.

Need proof visit www.afroasiatics.blogspot.com

---

You seem to have a religious orientation in this comment.

Looking at the person on the far right the photo above, I had posted a man on page one who is possibly the same person in a slightly different pose

Here it is again


And your comment after my post was:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Looks like you can only repost pictures of mixed arabs, Lank hair as we remember according to Arabs is a trait of non Arabs and most of the people you post regardless of how dark they are are mixed people. Really gets boring after a while although they are purer Arabs then the folks you normally post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Picture spamming modern day Middle Easterners of varied pigmentation and origin isn't going to change what the ancient and most medieval Arabs descendants of the real children of Shem and Noah looked like.


"Banu Yafi'i" bin Chesed (Khasdim) of ancient Sabaean Yemen and the hebrew Bible and book of Jubilees.

Yemen was the "India Minor" and Abyssinia was Middle India of the ancient world until medieval times (even Marco Polo writes of it). like Arabia in general both were part of the "Ethiopia" of the ancient world.

Need proof visit www.afroasiatics.blogspot.com

---

You seem to have a religious orientation in this comment.

---

Nope I don't care about religion that comment is for those who would like to believe Ham Shem and Japhet represented different peoples of the world.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
on second thought it it very well may be the same person which would mean that one of these photos is not presenting the real complexion of this person. Now wouldn't iT?!
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
That's why I prefer to see people in their true colors.


Like this modern Banu Kinana boy in the Syrian Levantese Jericho - as opposed to the original Yemenite one mentioned in the old Testament - who came from the Hijaz to the region probably in early Islamic or Christian times.

Feel free to let me know which Arab tribe wasn't called black in the ancient world. You have all eternity to let me know.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

---

Indigenous Arab Shammar OF ARABIA in their Arab dress


Arabized Shammar OF ARABIA in their Syrian dress



Wow! Two worlds of people a WORLD apart.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

But Mike, Djehuti says the above could be straight haired blacks so why are you giving me a hard time?

---

quote:

---

He didn't say "mixed with whites"

---

No, I didn't say they were mixed or whether they were either black or white. My point is not to jump to conclusions on their coloring based on their features which is something your lyinass is guilty of all the time, except you are more slick about it where instead of saying anything, you simply post pictures of folks who don't resemble the "true negroid" look and expect folks to agree that this somehow means they were not black.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
I don't get what's the big deal and obsession about Arabs???? They are looked down upon by Indians, Persians, Turks and even Horners...

Who cares about them.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL Yes, it's funny you should mention that.

There seems to be a love-hate relationship between Arabs and the various peoples you mentioned. The reason being is that all those regions with more "sophisticated" civilizations are still resentful about being conquered by the more "barbaric" Arabs, yet many especially the Muslims among the peoples of those regions still feel indebted for bringing Islam as well as other political and cultural changes which they favor today.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Who cares about who looks down on Syrians and Arabs? I personally care about history. I guess that is why most of the non-trolls are here. Or at least I had thought so.


Funny you should be talking about who is looked down upon SON. I think you forgot some people.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Yes, it's funny you should mention that.

---

Seriously I can never understand why on ES there is so many threads about them. Somalis hate them. Hausa people hate them. Berber people hate them(A LOT!). Indians hate them. Persians hate them. Kurds hate them. Turks hate them. Jews hate them. Ethiopians hate them. Swahilis hate them. Pakistanis hate them.

Seriously why are there people on here trying to claim them? What have Arabs done or contributed to? The answer is nothing...

I just don't get it...I thought black people would be ashamed if Arabs were black. I'm not trying to be racist.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

Modern Tihama - ARABIA

Whose them, Son. And whose trying to claim THEM. Somalis and indigenous Arabs though they are black are not Americans and I don't see anyone trying to claim them. Unless you are projecting something!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


Ibn Saud
King Abdulaziz (1876– 1953) the first monarch of Saudi Arabia, the third Saudi State.


As a young man Ibn Saud
King Abdulaziz





Ibn Saud, King Abdulaziz, photo 1911 (age 35)
at left, with other male members of his family


Ibn Saud, King Abdulaziz, photo 1927 (age 51)

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
.


Ibn Saud
King Abdulaziz (1876– 1953) the first monarch of Saudi Arabia, the third Saudi State.


As a young man Ibn Saud
King Abdulaziz





Ibn Saud, King Abdulaziz, photo 1911 (age 35)
at left, with other male members of his family


Ibn Saud, King Abdulaziz, photo 1927 (age 51)

---

Yes LYING_SS - we already know or you have already been told the Anaeaza who come originally from the Bakr bin Wail mixed with the Syrians.

So what is your point?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
[Yes LYING_SS - we already know or you have already been told the Anaeaza who come originally from the Bakr bin Wail mixed with the Syrians.

So what is your point? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Who cares about who looks down on Syrians and Arabs? I personally care about history. I guess that is why most of the non-trolls are here. Or at least I had thought so.


Funny you should be talking about who is looked down upon SON. I think you forgot some people.

---

Actually Dana...I may have some Middle Eastern/Arab in my family.

I have some family members that I don't know of who live in Dubai. Most of my family members(on my mothers side) I know of live in the states and little in Trinidad. Again I may have SOME Arabs in my family. MAY...On my mothers side.

But I don't know much of my Indian side. That side is completely in the dark.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Yes, it's funny you should mention that.

---

Seriously I can never understand why on ES there is so many threads about them. Somalis hate them. Hausa people hate them. Berber people hate them(A LOT!). Indians hate them. Persians hate them. Kurds hate them. Turks hate them. Jews hate them. Ethiopians hate them. Swahilis hate them. Pakistanis hate them.

---

Why would any black person be ashamed of other black people? I just don't get it.

This same sentence can be applied to African Americans too. You forgot "white Nubians" hate them too. So I sure hope you ARE NOT being "racist" - like you say!


BTW - I still would like to find out who "them" is? Since you claim people here are claiming them.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Modern Tihama - ARABIA

Whose them, Son. And whose trying to claim THEM. Somalis and indigenous Arabs though they are black are not Americans and I don't see anyone trying to claim them. Unless you are projecting something!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lyinass,:

---

 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Yes, it's funny you should mention that.

---

Seriously I can never understand why on ES there is so many threads about them. Somalis hate them. Hausa people hate them. Berber people hate them(A LOT!). Indians hate them. Persians hate them. Kurds hate them. Turks hate them. Jews hate them. Ethiopians hate them. Swahilis hate them. Pakistanis hate them.

---

Why would any black person be ashamed of other black people? I just don't get it.

This same sentence can be applied to African Americans too. You forgot "white Nubians" hate them too. So I sure hope you ARE NOT being "racist" - like you say!


BTW - I still would like to find out who "them" is? Since you claim people here are claiming them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
[Yes LYING_SS - we already know or you have already been told the Anaeaza who come originally from the Bakr bin Wail mixed with the Syrians.

So what is your point?

---

my point is you are a fucking bitch [/QB]

---

Boohoo! That was uncalled for LYING _SS you deliberately hurt my feelings/Boohoooo.
Oh good heavens LYING _SS is that the way they talk in Sweden? I had no idea.

BTW - I like your hairstyle. Is that your true color or was it dyed?
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Yes, it's funny you should mention that.

---

Seriously I can never understand why on ES there is so many threads about them. Somalis hate them. Hausa people hate them. Berber people hate them(A LOT!). Indians hate them. Persians hate them. Kurds hate them. Turks hate them. Jews hate them. Ethiopians hate them. Swahilis hate them. Pakistanis hate them.

---

Why would any black person be ashamed of other black people? I just don't get it.

This same sentence can be applied to African Americans too. You forgot "white Nubians" hate them too. So I sure hope you ARE NOT being "racist" - like you say!


BTW - I still would like to find out who "them" is? Since you claim people here are claiming them.

---

You mean why would Arabs be ashamed of other black people? Or African Americans?

---

How would you know have you ever seen a real Arab or are you just talking about the Arabized people like Her Neanderdumbness above.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
Hey Dana do these Tamils look black to you? I think some could pass for African Americans or horner.





I believe Indians especially Southern Indians(Tamils/Dravidians) are descendants of early cushite type people.

I think Southern Indians got their features like straight hair and dark skin from them.

I think the early Iranians may have looked like these Sir Lankans.


These are just my opinions...
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Picture spamming modern day Middle Easterners of varied pigmentation and origin isn't going to change what the ancient and most medieval Arabs descendants of the real children of Shem and Noah looked like.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Yes, it's funny you should mention that.

---

Seriously I can never understand why on ES there is so many threads about them. Somalis hate them. Hausa people hate them. Berber people hate them(A LOT!). Indians hate them. Persians hate them. Kurds hate them. Turks hate them. Jews hate them. Ethiopians hate them. Swahilis hate them. Pakistanis hate them.

---

Why would any black person be ashamed of other black people? I just don't get it.

This same sentence can be applied to African Americans too. You forgot "white Nubians" hate them too. So I sure hope you ARE NOT being "racist" - like you say!


BTW - I still would like to find out who "them" is? Since you claim people here are claiming them.

---

You mean why would Arabs be ashamed of other black people? Or African Americans?

---

How would you know have you ever seen a real Arab or are you just talking about the Arabized people like Her Neanderdumbness above.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Who cares about who looks down on Syrians and Arabs? I personally care about history. I guess that is why most of the non-trolls are here. Or at least I had thought so.


Funny you should be talking about who is looked down upon SON. I think you forgot some people.

---

Actually Dana...I may have some Middle Eastern/Arab in my family.

I have some family members that I don't know of who live in Dubai. Most of my family members(on my mothers side) I know of live in the states and little in Trinidad. Again I may have SOME Arabs in my family. MAY...On my mothers side.

But I don't know much of my Indian side. That side is completely in the dark.

---

Son - I don't have A SHRED of Middle Eastern in my blood.


BTW - all early Arabs were black. I am sorry for the inconvenience.


And Tigers were from India.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
@Dana


Ma'am what is the date of that painting(badass Tiger btw)?

And if the early Arabs were African...Then why is the dominant Y-DNA in Arabian males Haplogroup J?

Ma'am...You must define black. African black or Asian black? There are blacks in Asia who look more African than some Africans but are distant from Africans like this Aeta man.


You may be right. The early Arabians could have been black by todays definitions. But were they related to Africans? Can you prove they were?

Pictures are not going to really tell us anything.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Hey Dana do these Tamils look black to you?

---

Nope! They look like Dominicans or more like what they are - people of INDIA.
And that response is coming from someone who IS relatively recently descended in part from people northern India.


That doesn't mean they aren't in part descended from black Africans like the original Tamil AND ARAB and AFRICAN AMERICAN.



BTW - this lesser modified Tamil girl DOES look black to me. Just like the lesser modified Arabs.

Hope that helps.
 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Bump
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
@Dana

Really???

I thought at least this one!!!


What Northern Indian ethnic group are you? May I ask...My mothers side is Tamil descent. They're recent migrates to Trinidad.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
By the way - there is a Tamil national television host here in the US that I did think was black American for the longest time or else a "horner".


I don't know if you know of the Fox (Fixed) news host Uma Pumaraju.


 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
By the way - there is a Tamil national television host here in the US that I did think was black American for the longest time or else a "horner".


I don't know if you know of the Fox (Fixed) news host Uma Pumaraju.

---

I know of her.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
These Muslim Arab men look like they're planning something.




Meanwhile these Muslim Fulanis look so innocent and peaceful.


I have to say...Out of all Muslims. Muslim West Africans seem like the most peaceful.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

Really???

I thought at least this one!!!


What Northern Indian ethnic group are you? May I ask...My mothers side is Tamil descent. They're recent migrates to Trinidad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

Really???

I thought at least this one!!!


What Northern Indian ethnic group are you? May I ask...My mothers side is Tamil descent. They're recent migrates to Trinidad.

---

I don't know for sure since they apparently came around the turn of the 19th century. Although I do have photos that show my dad's uncles looking exactly like the Multani or Lobhana Jatts that own a lot of the gas stations where I live. They were very tall and handsone I might add.

On the other hand whomever came over obviously had Austric background and possibly some Hazara judging from my great grandmother and her sister's photos- they weren't exactly lookers and was very archaic looking at least to me. (Maybe I shouldn't say that.)

But anyway my grandmother and another of her uncle told me her Indian ancestors came from northwest India before it became Pakistan I guess or Punjab and that they were brought to South Africa as indentured before they arrived here stopping in England on the way. I guess they were among the first "Desis" in the U.S.

I was also told on my dad's father's side that there were also some people brought from the Caribbean as well very black but with straightish hair. I have a feeling they may have also have had some east Indian in them. I just heard about that line though recently. if I have any Dravidian or southern Indians ancestry it would be from that side.

---

Interesting...Most of my family moved from southern India to Trinidad. My mothers side is of Tamil descent, but both her and I don't know much about that side.

Some Southern Indians like Tamils were brought to the Caribbean. So Dravidian people too.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

She definitely could fit in the Abyssinian category. NO?

I think they found out there are more East Indians listed in colonial records too then there were Native Americans. So that probably indicates that many south Indians were absorbed into the American populace beginning from at least the 1600s.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
These Muslim Arab men look like they're planning something.




Meanwhile these Muslim Fulanis look so innocent and peaceful.


I have to say...Out of all Muslims. Muslim West Africans seem like the most peaceful.

---

lol!This seems like big stereotyping, Son. In reality I don't make fun Arabs or really any people as an adult. Besides my son looks kind of Syrian so he has been mistaken for Middle Eastern at times.
Do you know I hear a lot of people making fun of East Indians too and I don't like it truthfully.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
BTW - don't be fooled. Fulani were known not long ago as the most warlike people in Africa. At least that's what the colonialists said.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
@Dana

I know people make fun of East Indians and some times I use to get called terrorist in high school due to being mixed with Indian. Its just that I'm a really immature person.

That picture really does look like they're planning something.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
And don't they still practice Sharia in Hausa Fulani land? i think so. I guess they're peaceful for a reason.lol!
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
BTW - don't be fooled. Fulani were known not long ago as the most warlike people in Africa. At least that's what the colonialists said.

---

I can't believe it. They look so innocent.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I know people make fun of East Indians and some times I use to get called terrorist in high school due to being mixed with Indian. Its just that I'm a really immature person.

That picture really does look like they're planning something.

---

I think everyone is pretty immature on this site. lol! Especially me. I blame Zahi Hawass though. I think I get it from being around him in his lab. Now I can't help it sometimes, safe to say.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I know people make fun of East Indians and some times I use to get called terrorist in high school due to being mixed with Indian. Its just that I'm a really immature person.

That picture really does look like they're planning something.

---

I think everyone is pretty immature on this site. lol! Especially me. I blame Zahi Hawass though. I think I get it from being around him. Now I can't help it sometimes, safe to say.

---

You use to hang around Zahi Hawass???
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
These Muslim Arab men look like they're planning something.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I know people make fun of East Indians and some times I use to get called terrorist in high school due to being mixed with Indian. Its just that I'm a really immature person.

That picture really does look like they're planning something.

---

I think everyone is pretty immature on this site. lol! Especially me. I blame Zahi Hawass though. I think I get it from being around him. Now I can't help it sometimes, safe to say.

---

You use to hang around Zahi Hawass???

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I know people make fun of East Indians and some times I use to get called terrorist in high school due to being mixed with Indian. Its just that I'm a really immature person.

That picture really does look like they're planning something.

---

I think everyone is pretty immature on this site. lol! Especially me. I blame Zahi Hawass though. I think I get it from being around him. Now I can't help it sometimes, safe to say.

---

You use to hang around Zahi Hawass???

---

Yeah - he was a friend for a while but I used to help him translate French texts when he lived in the US and was getting his advanced degree at U of Penn. He was fun to be around though - even if he did make some embarrassing jokes about black Africans. Its a long story that I don't have time to get into.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I know people make fun of East Indians and some times I use to get called terrorist in high school due to being mixed with Indian. Its just that I'm a really immature person.

That picture really does look like they're planning something.

---

I think everyone is pretty immature on this site. lol! Especially me. I blame Zahi Hawass though. I think I get it from being around him. Now I can't help it sometimes, safe to say.

---

You use to hang around Zahi Hawass???

---

Yeah - he was a friend for a while but I used to help him translate French texts when he lived in the US and was getting his advanced degree at U of Penn. He was fun to be around though - even if he did make some embarrassing jokes about black Africans. Its a long story that I don't have time to get into.

---

Wow...Just wow!

I notice people here on ES have connections to important people. SOme of these people being S.O.Y Keita.

Interesting.

---

lol! I used to talk to Keita when I was still at the University of Chicago some years ago. I sent him a bibliography about the hmaitic theory and used to argue with him about the northern Egyptian populations being black. At the time I think he was convinced narrow nose equalled non-black African because of his mentors, but I'm pretty sure he's come to modify a lot of his views now. He is one of the true black American scholars that one can rely on when it comes to African population biology. Along with Kittles and this guy Explorer whoever he is. Explorer may be white for all I know.

I also met Gamal Moktar through him God rest his soul - who unlike Zahi wasn't a bigot or prejudiced against black things and was pretty openminded - although he looked more Turkish then Zahi did.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
@Dana

I thought Keita always thought Egypt as a whole was African. But yes he is a good scholar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfkp4ZWm4U

You seem to be well versed on the Moors and Berbers. Your post about the Moors were good. I don't know much about the Moors and I usually avoid debating about them, because to me their origins seem to complex compared to the Ancient Egyptians.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

Really???

I thought at least this one!!!


What Northern Indian ethnic group are you? May I ask...My mothers side is Tamil descent. They're recent migrates to Trinidad.

---

The girl is of course a mulatto.
Dravidian/Tamil girls look like this:




Mulattoes are particularly annoying and difficult, because they refuse to understand and acknowledge that they are NOT the "original" people. At best they are "Part" original people.
Interestingly, they have no compunction about denigrating their Black side, which WAS the original people.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:


Mulattoes are particularly annoying and difficult, because they refuse to understand and acknowledge that they are NOT the "original" people. At best they are "Part" original people.
Interestingly, they have no compunction about denigrating their Black side, which WAS the original people.

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^Congratulations Albinos, you have made your mulattoes just as measly-mouthed and stupid as yourselves. Doing studies to tell you what just looking around would means that the money must be flowing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I thought Keita always thought Egypt as a whole was African. But yes he is a good scholar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfkp4ZWm4U

You seem to be well versed on the Moors and Berbers. Your post about the Moors were good. I don't know much about the Moors and I usually avoid debating about them, because to me their origins seem to complex compared to the Ancient Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
What Northern Indian ethnic group are you? May I ask...My mothers side is Tamil descent. They're recent migrates to Trinidad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
That word Middle Easterner in the article is rather vague. Hmmm... I wonder what they could possibly mean.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
"black"

"white"

terms that have no scientific value

---

But we do know that negro and sub-Saharan has scientific value for you and other Neanderdumbs and for that matter Howell and some other "scholars", just as "albino" has scientific value for Michael.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
That word Middle Easterner in the article is rather vague. Hmmm... I wonder what they could possibly mean.

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I don't see the confusion:

The Aryans were Central Asians, Modern Europeans are Central Asians, modern middle easterners are Central Asian (mostly Turkic) and native peoples Mulattoes. The line is consistent.

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And therein lies the resolution mulatto. Which in my mind means various combinations of Eurasian and Afro-Asiatic, i.e. the Middleasterner.

Glad you agree.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
"black"

"white"

terms that have no scientific value

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
"black"

"white"

terms that have no scientific value

---

Go away!

That sounds so stupid,

500 years of history, mostly bad, and assholes like this idiot want to make like it never happened.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones.

That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Mike I'm still waiting for that imaginary National Museum of Yemen website you visited
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Dana Marniche

quote:

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones. That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there. [Wink]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I thought Keita always thought Egypt as a whole was African. But yes he is a good scholar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfkp4ZWm4U

You seem to be well versed on the Moors and Berbers. Your post about the Moors were good. I don't know much about the Moors and I usually avoid debating about them, because to me their origins seem to complex compared to the Ancient Egyptians.

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I know a lot about the Moors and Arabs because I researched them writing some articles for Dr. Van Sertima's Journal of African civilization. I remember pleading with him about putting out something on the Moors. i knew he was interested in the subject matter because he used to teach a course at Rutgers where he was mentioningg some things about it. That's how I know that the skeletons of the early Arabs or Arabians and rock art were up until the Bronze age very similar to those found in the Nile Valley and the Sahara. Unfortunately a lot of that material on the Arabians and ancient Asia was taken out by the co-editor who then proceeded to plagiarize some of what I wrote and put it in his own article. (Which I will unfortunately be angry at for the next few lifetimes - knowing me.)
Most of that research was done for a thesis at the University of Chicago and under the counsel of the head of the American Anthropological at the time, Dr. Jane Buikstra. I had also learned something of the Upper Nile valley through independent study there with Bruce Williams who had looked into Ta Seti. I have conversed and met with many people involved in this subject so i know something about what I am speaking of although I may like to joke.

That is why believe me when i say genetics is irrelevent when you don't know the historical movements that have gone on I'm just speaking from the point of view other specializations that are equally as important. one thing is certain if the ancient Arabs were NOT black than NEITHER WERE were the Ethiopians and ancient Egyptians and Saharans who were identical populations on both sides of the Red Sea. That is a major reason why I write about it.
People have to understand Arabia, east Africa and even regions further north and east were at one time populated by related peoples. At no time will genetics ever be able to rule this out unless dna from those ancient peoples or their skeletons is analyzed.
Posting haplotype studies and pictures of modern people who are Arabs only by nationality, language or because they have just some mild amount of ancestry from these ancient groups does not address the issue of who ancient Arabians i.e. the Sabaeans and their later black descendants in the Muslim period the non-Syrian Arabs i.e."Moorish Arabs" were related to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones.

That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Dana

I thought Keita always thought Egypt as a whole was African. But yes he is a good scholar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfkp4ZWm4U

You seem to be well versed on the Moors and Berbers. Your post about the Moors were good. I don't know much about the Moors and I usually avoid debating about them, because to me their origins seem to complex compared to the Ancient Egyptians.

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKAiVIJT448
And this is what I mean by how the use of genetic haplogroups is being distorted again by Neandernuts to write themselves into African amd in fact probably any civilized area of the ancient world.


Because a haplogroup is found in Tut that may have had connection to some ancient European haplotype showing he may or may not have had a white ancestry now the Viking is proven ancestor of pharaoh.

Just shows silliness and desperation of what's going on and has been going on for centuries in so-called Western science.


This Neanderdummy being interviewed is most certainly one of the LYIN __SSES relatives. I Guarantee it. loL!
 

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Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
King Tut being R1b was already proven to be false.
http://www.livescience.com/15388-discovery-channel-tutankhamen-dna.html

Even if he was R1b it was not due to Europeans but Asian migration. R1b is found in both Europe and Africa due to migrating Asians. NOT EUROPEANS.

Didn't you see the DNAtribes results?
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Well Indians did have trade/connections with the Somalis, Ethiopians and Swahili's. But I am not sure about Tamils having African origins. Maybe coming into contact with Africans(Axumite, Somalis) early on?

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Earth to Son of Ra:

Where do you think Dravidians/Tamils came from?

Look at a map:

Moving "Away" from Africa, these people are just "PAST" the Tamils.




Moving "Further Away" from Africa, these people are just "PAST" those that are past the Tamils.




Damn, what the hell do they teach these children in school?
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones.

That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there.

---

Well Indians did have trade/connections with the Somalis, Ethiopians and Swahili's. But I am not sure about Tamils having African origins. Maybe coming into contact with Africans(Axumite, Somalis) early on?

---

Actually I believe the present Dravidians were a mix of African Austric and Iranic people like most of today's Indians, except that their language and some of the people preserve the culture that must have been brought in by Africans. Although everyone ultimately hase come from Africa, African and Austric group have a different culture stratum and origin. Dravidians have many cultural elements that link them strongly to more recent Africans. This similarity also extends to linguistics.

There is physical or biological evidence also to show some of the settlers in the Indus were similar to Nilotic Egyptians and certain Nubian populations at Jebel Moya. Not all Indus people of course were African but some, like some of the Elamites were probably derived from the Afro-Arabians who in term had settled in Arabia from Africa.
There was at least one other group of likely AFrican origin probably similar to the Ubaid man that appears to have settled in mesolithic times in Asia including India. The same group settled in the Natufian culture.
 

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Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
@Mike111

^^^What the hell have they been letting you smoke?
 

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Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones.

That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there.

---

Well Indians did have trade/connections with the Somalis, Ethiopians and Swahili's. But I am not sure about Tamils having African origins. Maybe coming into contact with Africans(Axumite, Somalis) early on?

---

Actually I believe the present Dravidians were a mix of African Austric and Iranic people like most of today's Indians, except that their language and some of the people preserve the culture that must have been brought in by Africans. African and Austric people have a different culture and origin. Dravidians have many cultural elements that link them strongly to Africans. This similarity also extends to linguistics.

There is physical or biological evidence also to show some of the settlers in the Indus were similar to Nilotic Egyptians and certain Nubian populations at Jebel Moya. Not all Indus people of course were African but some, like some of the Elamites were probably derived from the Afro-Arabians who in term had settled in Arabia from Africa.
There was at least one other group of likely AFrican origin probably similar to the Ubaid man that appears to have settled in mesolithic times in Asia including India. The same group settled in the Natufian culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Mike111

^^^What the hell have they been letting you smoke?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
King Tut being R1b was already proven to be false.
http://www.livescience.com/15388-discovery-channel-tutankhamen-dna.html

Even if he was R1b it was not due to Europeans but Asian migration. R1b is found in both Europe and Africa due to migrating Asians. NOT EUROPEANS.

Didn't you see the DNAtribes results?

---

Yes I think I was one of the first ones to see the dnatribes results.

But, OK so this is the r1b study people were talking about?

What a joke. Will have to read the retort though.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
King Tut being R1b was already proven to be false.
http://www.livescience.com/15388-discovery-channel-tutankhamen-dna.html

Even if he was R1b it was not due to Europeans but Asian migration. R1b is found in both Europe and Africa due to migrating Asians. NOT EUROPEANS.

Didn't you see the DNAtribes results?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones.

That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there.

---

Well Indians did have trade/connections with the Somalis, Ethiopians and Swahili's. But I am not sure about Tamils having African origins. Maybe coming into contact with Africans(Axumite, Somalis) early on?

---

Actually I believe the present Dravidians were a mix of African Austric and Iranic people like most of today's Indians, except that their language and some of the people preserve the culture that must have been brought in by Africans. African and Austric people have a different culture and origin. Dravidians have many cultural elements that link them strongly to Africans. This similarity also extends to linguistics.

There is physical or biological evidence also to show some of the settlers in the Indus were similar to Nilotic Egyptians and certain Nubian populations at Jebel Moya. Not all Indus people of course were African but some, like some of the Elamites were probably derived from the Afro-Arabians who in term had settled in Arabia from Africa.
There was at least one other group of likely AFrican origin probably similar to the Ubaid man that appears to have settled in mesolithic times in Asia including India. The same group settled in the Natufian culture.

---

I don't know about Dravidians/Tamils having recent African origins. But I believe Dravidians/Tamils descend from proto Cushite type people. Thats my theory.

I think the early Indus settlers could have looked like Nilotics from the Nile Valley.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Dana Marniche

quote:

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones. That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there. [Wink]

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Was that a long held belief that they were in fact Africans or is it a modern political move to link-up with Western blacks..meaning from their geographical POV Blacks of Africa and the Americas
Btw I do know of African migrants to South East Asia but that's not who were are speaking about.

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Its something Diop and Dravidian scholars came to conclude together probably and of course in the 20th century. that there are too many similarities to be explained away by trade or the same latitude.

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Son of Ra, here is a quote from Mike's webisite:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Indus_Valley_India_2.htm

Aryans and Dravidians, and by extension Europeans and Dravidians, are the same people genetically. This is possible because even thought their respective skin colors are very different; that difference is attributable to Albinism, a genetic defect with does not effect the general genetic make-up of those so afflicted. Thus the Albino child of a Black Dravidian father with Y-dna R1 will still, and also, have Y-dna R1 too.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzbhjZqN51rnawmho1_500.jpg
 

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Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Mike111

^^^What the hell have they been letting you smoke?

---

Stop saying silly things.

---

No.
 

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Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Son of Ra, here is a quote form Mike's webisite:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Indus_Valley_India_2.htm

Aryans and Dravidians, and by extension Europeans and Dravidians, are the same people genetically. This is possible because even thought their respective skin colors are very different; that difference is attributable to Albinism, a genetic defect with does not effect the general genetic make-up of those so afflicted. Thus the Albino child of a Black Dravidian father with Y-dna R1 will still, and also, have Y-dna R1 too.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzbhjZqN51rnawmho1_500.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son Of Ra I have met many Sri Lankans they do in fact self Id as Blacks although non claimed to be African, Africans and their descendants do not have a monopoly on the term Black as self identification ancient or modern.

---

Personally I do know and it is obvious that millions of Tamil people living in Asia have claimed and do claim to have remote African origins and strong African connections especially the ones that follow the Tamil tigers. All you have to do is look at some of the early Tamil and revolutionary writings. And, half the time they were not even the dark skinned ones.

That is why Runoko Rashidi became so popular there.

---

Well Indians did have trade/connections with the Somalis, Ethiopians and Swahili's. But I am not sure about Tamils having African origins. Maybe coming into contact with Africans(Axumite, Somalis) early on?

---

Actually I believe the present Dravidians were a mix of African Austric and Iranic people like most of today's Indians, except that their language and some of the people preserve the culture that must have been brought in by Africans. African and Austric people have a different culture and origin. Dravidians have many cultural elements that link them strongly to Africans. This similarity also extends to linguistics.

There is physical or biological evidence also to show some of the settlers in the Indus were similar to Nilotic Egyptians and certain Nubian populations at Jebel Moya. Not all Indus people of course were African but some, like some of the Elamites were probably derived from the Afro-Arabians who in term had settled in Arabia from Africa.
There was at least one other group of likely AFrican origin probably similar to the Ubaid man that appears to have settled in mesolithic times in Asia including India. The same group settled in the Natufian culture.

---

I don't know about Dravidians/Tamils having recent African origins. But I believe Dravidians/Tamils descend from proto Cushite type people. Thats my theory.

I think the early Indus settlers could have looked like Nilotics from the Nile Valley.

---

Son of Ra - you do realize that Tamils and Dravidic peoples in general came from the north, right. When I say recent I'm speaking in terms of during the Holocene period and within the last 3 to 7,000 years.
What you surmised, is not a theory but a speculation something people have too much of on this site. nevertheless i agree they could have had some ties to the proto-Cushitic or Afro-Asiatic speakers (if that's what you mean). That is at least what some linguistics are starting to suggest.

---

Yeah I mean that.

And I know Dravidians and Tamils come from the north. They were pushed south.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Heaven O people, Glad to see Dana return to schooling the Forum on Real Arabs etc.

All I can say is that what people seem to forget about Tamils and Dravdians, Is that they originate in Upper India and Pakistan.

The Harrappan Civi was created by The Dravdians and Tamils before the coming of the Iranis. I also Remember(Hey Dana school me if I am wrong) That the Dravdians would Dip there children in Sesame OIL to make them Darker. Sadly the very racist Veda scripts claimed Dark skin as Ugly and not something to be proud of. Incomes the Hindu foolishness and the Dalits(African Indians) get labelled as untouchables and can be killed by the higher ranked worthless Hindus if even touched by an Dalit.

Then the Dalits in the early 1950's came together to form the Dalit Panthers and fight for there rights to learn build and support there people. I support them and the siddis As Africans Funny thing is that the Dalit women are probably the most beautiful in India. I have no taste for those "Bollywood" fake women who kiss white mans ass with there love singing about how this indian woman has green eyes and Blue rings around the eyes. Trust me People I have watched 2 indian moves and I could not stop laughing about the script all it was was an glorfying of light eyes and skins, Almost threw up. Give me an Tamil, Sinhalese, Siddi and Dalit ANYDAY. Then theres these disgusting brahim Indians promoting bleaching of skin to Indians etc. Sad country but Nigeria is worse. You hope with time these sad delusional foo fools will see Love for themselves and stand Black and Proud.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Son of Ra, here is a quote form Mike's webisite:

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Indus_Valley_India_2.htm

Aryans and Dravidians, and by extension Europeans and Dravidians, are the same people genetically. This is possible because even thought their respective skin colors are very different; that difference is attributable to Albinism, a genetic defect with does not effect the general genetic make-up of those so afflicted. Thus the Albino child of a Black Dravidian father with Y-dna R1 will still, and also, have Y-dna R1 too.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxzbhjZqN51rnawmho1_500.jpg

---

lol...Wow.


He thinks Europeans comes from Albino Dravidians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Lioness, I see you have found a young nit-wit to give you the hoped for response.

But this is an adult game, my positions are supported by fact, studies, and artifacts: aside from the kids he,he, what have you got to disprove anything with?

---

refer to the article you posted on the previous page. I realize that you have difficulty understanding these articles but that one contradicts your own theory. I'll give you some time to think it over, lioness
 

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Posted by Pulp (Member # 15591) on :
 
Both of these people are Coconuts.
Brown on the outside and white in the inside.




 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
[QB] These Muslim Arab men look like they're planning something.

---

 

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Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :