I just thought I would update egypt searchers on something features of the Barbados Penny whose significance appears to have been overlooked for reasons which are obvious in hindsight.
This is my first post so please be tolerant of any violation of ES etiquette.
There are actually two different faces featured on the Barbados Penny. Given that they don't resemble the "official and approved" images of King George and King Charlotte the claims about who they portray tend to be rubbished.
As can be seen from a cursory look they are clearly two different people.
The logical candidate for the first image is King George.
The second one is most definitely Queen Charlotte. The assumption that it had to be the monarch and thus a male has been so strong that the possibility that it could be female was overlooked and it is only one website I saw that noted that possibility.
The facial differences are obvious, but the significance of the other differences have been overlooked.
The first most obvious difference is what appears to be "bumps" at the base of the second one. One website writes that those "bumps" are the "M" in the name of John Milton of the Royal Mint.
quote: Obverse Description: The head of a slave facing left, wearing a coronet and three feather plume; below, I SERVE; artist's initial, M, incuse on neck trucation.
In my view they are not.
They are a device to highlight the fact that the person on that coin is a female. Those bumps are actually what is known in posh circles as "decolletage", or in layman's terms, shoulders and titties, or as some prefer, boobs.
It is a female you are looking at, and they are there to distinguish her from the male in the first image which must be King George.
The other difference is the feathers on the second one. They are larger and closer to the skull as well and are an allusion to Queen Charlotte's "Big Hair" as can be seen from many of her portraits.
For those who think the case made here is rather weak here is another image of her on a brooch. It is a part of the royal collection but I don't have the exact URL at hand
If I have some time I will enlarge it later to silence any nitpicking fools.
Another thing which supports Mike's description of some people as "lying albinos" is that the inscription "I SERVE" is the literal English translation of the the German words "ICH DIEN" which is the Prince of Wales badge. How the curators of the British Museum and some other museum in Australia have managed to miss it simply beats me. Any moderately intelligent British schoolboy knows that, let alone one employed in that kind of role at the British Museum.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Ha,ha,ha,ha:
Very entertaining von Habsburg, will you also be claiming your birthright as a Habsburg?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Kunta Kinteh Island (renamed in 2011) formerly James Island, Gambia
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Ha,ha,ha,ha:
Very entertaining von Habsburg, will you also be claiming your birthright as a Habsburg?
Although not quite THE Habsburg I think the name does lend a specious authority to my arguments, so to speak.
I see you have yet to comment on the reasoning supporting my conclusions, but with both you and Lioness joining in I hope it will turn out to be an interesting thread. I see she has already thrown an indirect jab in your direction.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Kunta Kinteh Island (renamed in 2011) formerly James Island, Gambia
Ever true to type, it looks like you can't pass up a chance to needle Mike.
Perhaps the caption on the first image should read George III rather than James III, but I am yet to see the relevance of the latter two images.
Could you kindly explain them?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Idiots do not deal in thought, rhyme or reason, it hurts their heads. Idiots merely Google, cut and paste.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg: Ever true to type, it looks like you can't pass up a chance to needle Mike.
Perhaps the caption on the first image should read George III rather than James III, but I am yet to see the relevance of the latter two images.
Could you kindly explain them? [/QB]
oops. I goofed, to hasty, don't know where I got onto King James III, the island named after him as well
The divine genetics of aristocracy – family tree shows how the Spanish Hapsburg dynasty interbred to extinction 4 September 2014
What is it about an aristocracy that makes them ‘superior’ to the rest of us? Is it genetic?
On its own merits, any hereditary aristocracy should fall down within a couple of generations. From the earliest human societies the first elite will have possessed a real superiority – usually as warriors and charismatic leaders. When the elite pass power to a second generation, it becomes an hereditary aristocracy.
The lottery of genetics means that there is no guarantee that their descendants will inherit the same traits, so to ensure continuity the hereditary aristocracy must rely on the myth of superior nobility. To do this, an aristocracy will use inherited wealth and unequal opportunities to mask mediocrity within the noble class, while playing up any real ability. However, throughout history, the real boost to the myth of aristocratic superiority has typically been religion.
Modern history’s most famous example of an aristocracy whose own religious myth of superiority led to its own genetic undoing is the Spanish Hapsburg family. The family’s interbreeding over a few generations between 1500 and 1700 led to its extinction.
In the Hapsburg view of the universe, not only did the family have a divine right to rule, it had a divine plan to fulfil – to unify the world to prepare for the second coming of Christ.
To maintain their legitimacy to rule an earthly empire the Hapsburgs employed an army of genealogists to prove their divine descent from biblical and historical figures such as Adam, King David and the Roman Emperor Constantine, as well as claiming a blood relation to Christ himself. Statistically speaking, where these people actually existed, the Hapsburgs would indeed have been genetically descended from them – as would their lowliest kitchen maid and stable boy. Genealogy, however, is all about producing a documented lineage.
The Hapsburgs carried out their divine mission of territorial gain through marriage. By uniting empires, Spain’s power in Europe and the New World peaked under Hapsburg rule. However, to keep their heritage in their own hands and to keep their divine bloodline pure, the Hapsburgs began to intermarry more and more frequently.
Over a 200 year period, 8 out of 10 Hapsburg marriages were either uncle-niece or cousin marriages (up to second cousin). The result was that from 1527 to 1661 the Hapsburgs had 34 children of whom 10 died in their first year and 17 died before the age of 10.
The last Spanish Hapsburg king was Charles II. Because of his highly inbred recessive genes he was physically disabled, disfigured and mentally retarded. The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica citation for him says “there was no room in his nearly imbecile mind for more than childish superstition, insane pride of birth, and an interest in court etiquette.” He was also impotent and produced no children from his two marriages. When he died in 1700 the divine line of the Spanish Hapsburgs died with him.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
Lioness - It looks like you are still on your anti-Mike campaign. Can we stay on topic?
I posted the image stating that the person depicted on it is Queen Charlotte, with the other image below to support my claim.
Are you saying the image on the coin isn't/can't be Queen Charlotte or not?
By the way, are you a naturalista? I thought I'd ask seeing as you are a black woman, and it seems to be a hot topic now and here we have the Queen of England displayed in her naps.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Habsburg - I wonder if you know that the Habsburg family tree posted by Lioness is comprised of recent drawings of individuals, not actual "Authentic" portraits. Albinos make it up as they go.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg: Here we have the Queen of England displayed in her naps.
Here we have the Queen of England displayed in her "Glorious" Naps.
Only Black people can have Naps, whereas just about every Mammal, from Sloth to "Show Dog" From European Albinos to Eastern Mongols - all have "Straight Hair"
As Egmond so elegantly put it:
Blue Blood IS Black Blood! .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by von Habsburg: I just thought I would update egypt searchers on something
The feather crown is actually a heraldic badge, not a feathered crown kings actually wore so the fact that it is shown atop this mans head shows that it is a heraldic symbol And did Charlotte have afro hair or dark skin?
^^^ when the coin or depiction of a king is shown it has their name on it as shown Otherwise the man's head on it a heraldic symbol I'm not sure if the king ever even set foot on Barbados Would a European king have himself on a coin, the reverse with a pinapple? It's ridiculous The Barbados coin at top is not even governemnt minted. It was privately made
In other words do your own research
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Wiki as the prime source?
My,my,my:
Try Googling with a different key word.
Like "Coins for Idiots".
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg: Here we have the Queen of England displayed in her naps.
Here we have the Queen of England displayed in her "Glorious" Naps.
Only Black people can have Naps, whereas just about every Mammal, from Sloth to "Show Dog" From European Albinos to Eastern Mongols - all have "Straight Hair"
As Egmond so elegantly put it:
Blue Blood IS Black Blood! .
the woman is pale and pink moron what you commonly refer to as albino
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Habsburg - I wonder if you know that the Habsburg family tree posted by Lioness is comprised of recent drawings of individuals, not actual "Authentic" portraits. Albinos make it up as they go.
I am very well aware of that. As Mulder would say - "The truth is out there". You only have to look for it.
There is also a distinction between a dynasty and a bloodline. Dynasties come and go, but bloodlines last a lot longer. The Habsburgs originate from older bloodlines which don't even have their origins in Europe.
In the case of the Habsburgs, the last imperial Habsburg, Otto, died in 2011, at the age of 98 and he left 7 children behind. That must mean a fair amount of grandchildren and great-grandchildren
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
No Mike that is what YOU & your Whitey hating, Kill Whitey, Black racist, Black supremacist ilk (Narmer, Fourty2Tribes, Habsburg, Xyyboy, Ironcocksucker, Clyde, Mena7, Mali, Zarahan, Jantavanta, Typezeiss, NonTruthhitman, Doug, Kikuyu,etc) do make it up as you go. Trying to steal other people's history to make your own selves feel better because you don't like the legacy your own ancestors in Africa left you. As I have stated before your's & the ones named above's hatred towards Whites causes you to want Whites not to know who they are, Where they come from, who their ancestors are, for them to think they have no place on earth they belong, have no history, no heritage, no identity, nothing to be proud of as a people, are inferior, have no right to knowledge of self. All while you continuously spew racist epithets in every dang post you make. Funny Mike you sat there and said awhile back you thought the Tudors were the first White royal family in Europe but how quickly you forget, Mary Queen Of Scots' paternal grandmother was Henry VIII's sister LOL.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: No Mike that is what YOU & your Whitey hating, Kill Whitey, Black racist, Black supremacist ilk (Narmer, Fourty2Tribes, Habsburg, Xyyboy, Ironcocksucker, Clyde, Mena7, Mali, Zarahan, Jantavanta, Typezeiss, NonTruthhitman, Doug, Kikuyu,etc) do make it up as you go. Trying to steal other people's history to make your own selves feel better because you don't like the legacy your own ancestors in Africa left you. As I have stated before your's & the ones named above's hatred towards Whites causes you to want Whites not to know who they are, Where they come from, who their ancestors are, for them to think they have no place on earth they belong, have no history, no heritage, no identity, nothing to be proud of as a people, are inferior, have no right to knowledge of self. All while you continuously spew racist epithets in every dang post you make. Funny Mike you sat there and said awhile back you thought the Tudors were the first White royal family in Europe but how quickly you forget, Mary Queen Of Scots' paternal grandmother was Henry VIII's sister LOL.
Hi Warrioress, your voice has been sorely missed in this thread and I was waiting to see when you would join. You are very welcome and are in for a truly Hasbourgeouis treat.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I don't know if even Mike would buy this.
Each coin is clearly and without a doubt the same generic person.
The feather crown is actually a heraldic badge, not a feathered crown kings actually wore so the fact that it is shown atop this mans head shows that it is a heraldic symbol And did Charlotte have afro hair or dark skin?
^^^ when the coin or depiction of a king is shown it has their name on it as shown Otherwise the man's head on it a heraldic symbol I'm not sure if the king ever even set foot on Barbados Would a European king have himself on a coin, the reverse with a pinapple? It's ridiculous The Barbados coin at top is not even governemnt minted. It was privately made
In other words do your own research
Come on Lioness, you can surely do better. So far Mark has not presented an opinion on the points I made.
For arguments sake let us set aside the issue of whether they are official coins of the realm or not. The question is whether they are portrayals or good likenesses of King George, and according to my claim, Queen Charlotte, or not?
Of course one cannot discern a person's complexion from a coin, as a coin can only reflect the colour of the metal it is made off. We are interested in the features, and whether they are in line with those accepted or assumed to be good likenesses of the then King and Queen. The white picture of Queen Charlotte is from the Royal Collection. I don't have the original link (I personally verified it some time ago) but you can right click it in Google Chrome and do an image search.
Let us assume that the images are modelled on some random slaves hanging around London or on the plantation at the time the coins were minted. Are you trying to tell us that in your humble opinion they are images of the same slave, or an amalgam of features from a motley crew of Negroes?
Here are the two images side by side.
These differences must be obvious to you. I am going to call them Charlotte and George.
1. Charlotte has a better defined neck than George who has a rather short neck.
2. Charlotte has a "weak" chin compared with George
3. Charlotte has larger upper lip which extends well over the lower lip. This is even more evident in the picture of "white" Charlotte.
4. Charlotte's is eyelash is very well defined. The eyelash is very notable in that respect. It is clearly feminine.
5. George displays more of a knitted, furrowed brow, when you observe the nose ridge.
6. Note in particular the piece of skin connecting Charlotte's nose to her upper lip, which is even more obvious appears in "white" Charlotte.
The images you are looking at a definitely not those of a Jane and John Doe. They are real features of real living people, and the artist put some work into portraying them faithfully.
Any comments from Celtic Warrioress? Her views are especially welcome.
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
My views Whitey hater are, neither of those coins depict Charlotte or George. I've got a feeling Habsburg is either a current member with more than one account or a former member who came back.
Mike Mike Mike, Dude not all dogs have straight hair hehehehe. Poodles, Pulik, Komondorok, Porties (Ovomit dogs as I call them), Irish Water Spaniels, Bichons,Bergamasco Sheepdogs,Lagotto Romagnolo, American Water Spaniels, Spanish Water Dogs all have curly or corded (Dreadlocked) coats hehehehehe.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
Attn: Lioness and Celtic Warrioress
Here is the Prince of Wales logo.
"I SERVE" is the word for word English translation of the "ICH DIEN" displayed on it.
quote:In his capacity as the head of the principal lobby group representing the interests of the Caribbean plantation owners, he was received by King George III and the Prime Minister, Lord North, and enjoyed ready access to senior politicians in London, where he leased a town house at 4 New Burlington Street from 1798 onwards.
Are you trying to tell us that he would the mock the King and the Queen by equating his slaves with them? That symbol is readily recognized as representing the royal family even today, as it was then.
PS. Lioness I haven't got your reply about your opinions on natural hair. Are we really black?
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: My views Whitey hater are, neither of those coins depict Charlotte or George. I've got a feeling Habsburg is either a current member with more than one account or a former member who came back.
Mike Mike Mike, Dude not all dogs have straight hair hehehehe. Poodles, Pulik, Komondorok, Porties (Ovomit dogs as I call them), Irish Water Spaniels, Bichons,Bergamasco Sheepdogs,Lagotto Romagnolo, American Water Spaniels, Spanish Water Dogs all have curly or corded (Dreadlocked) coats hehehehehe.
But is the image below that of Queen Charlotte?
The curators at the Royal Collection seem to think so. You will admit though it does bear a resemblance to the figure on the Barbados coin, especially the nose and the lips, don't you? Just imagine how it would look if it was, with the discolouration around the nose removed.
Still not convinced? I think the "Glorious Natural" on the coin throws people completely of the scent.
Perhaps you could picture the young white lady on the left with curly hair like this equally "white" lady below. I think it would make the comparison a lot easier.
She happens to be the mother of the handsome young man portrayed below, who is probably described as a slave in some respected publication because he forgot to wear his wig.
By the way, Celtic Warrioress, how does she compare with the granddaughter of Harry Belafonte you panned in this thread - Britain's blue blood has been mixed for centuries Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Habsburg, if you look close, Queen Charlotte's nose in the Miniature is longer & more pointy that in that coin, also she had long hair, the person in that coin had very short hair. BTW, my hair curls like that last lady when it is unbrushed or wet. Also don't forget they had crude CURLING IRONS in that time period as well.
Yes they would do some crap like that, remember during Marie Antoinette & Louie's reign their French subjects were making depictions of Marie as a whore, her top down & skirt open legs spread, boobs, arse & vag showing with a man (not Louie) about to go down on her & all kinds of other vulgar depictions.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Habsburg, if you look close, Queen Charlotte's nose in the Miniature is longer & more pointy that in that coin, also she had long hair, the person in that coin had very short hair.
How much longer and more pointy is the nose in the miniature compared with the one on the coin?
If the lady in the miniature wore a curly afro wig would the comparison be easier for you? Can you picture it in your mind?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ Kings are identified by name on coins, above "Georgius" (King George III, 1771 and 1791
^^^ You will not see an image of a Welsh, English or any other European monarch wearing this Welsh royal badge's feathers
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
quote:Originally posted by von Habsburg:
For those who think the case made here is rather weak here is another image of her on a brooch. It is a part of the royal collection but I don't have the exact URL at hand
Another thing which supports Mike's description of some people as "lying albinos" ...
According to Mike due to her light skin tone Queen Charlotte was clearly an albino
So why is this even a thread???
.
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Nigerian historian Catherine Acholonu believe many of the Ancient Kings of the British isle were black people. In her book Eden in Sumer Catherine Acholonu quote British histian David McRitchie to show many ancient English, Scotish and Irish, Danish Kings were black people.
According to Catherine Acholonu the original aristocracy of Europe was a black aristocracy. The Roman and Norman conquest of England introduced some mulato and white people in the black English nobility.
The Scotish people were called Egyptians (black people). The Scots say they are the descendant of the Ancient Egptians. Ireland is Eri land is name after the Igbo God Eri. African immigrant in Europe were called Moors. Among the Moors of Ancient Europe were the Picts, the Huns, Gypsies, Hungarians and the Gaels/Celtics.
The war between the two ruling house of Great Britain ( England and Scotland) wich peaked in the battle between Queen Mary and vqueen Elizabeth 1 was a war between white rule and black rule of the nation of England. During and after the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 of England therev was a clan of black Northumbria in Great Britain that was not loyal to Queen Elizabeth 1 and her successor King George. Queen Elizabeth 1 paid tribute to the king of black northumbria called black mail or black tribute.
The British language has many words that came from the Celtic languages. the Celtic languages derived from the Igbo language or the Canaanite language. The Druids( Duru Idu in Igbo) were British Isle priest that came from Africa.
According to Mac Ritchie those who bear the last names Kenneth, Kennedy, Murray, Moore, Graham, Douglas, Marshall, Gawain, Duff, Dunn, Gray, Black, Brown and names with the title Mac/Mc are all the descendants of the black population of Ancient Britain.
The Gypsy ( E gypt ian) title of Romani ( derived from Roma from wich derived Rome/Roman) could be a backward spelling of Mor (Igbo Umu Oru).
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Mena7, dude my birth surname is Moore & I most certainly am NOT nor will I ever be Black. Dude who gives a flip what some Black supremacist, Whitey hating Black bitch like Catherine Acholonu has to say. The Celts, Picts, were NOT Black, they were in fact White whether you Black supremacists want to admit it or not.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Mike can I get you approval on these I want to close the topic? These fit your teachings, the king is either kneeling or was short and resembles the Barbados penny. If not please correct my error
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Habsburg, if you look close, Queen Charlotte's nose in the Miniature is longer & more pointy that in that coin, also she had long hair, the person in that coin had very short hair. BTW, my hair curls like that last lady when it is unbrushed or wet. Also don't forget they had crude CURLING IRONS in that time period as well.
Warrioress, Lioness is your best girl friend and supporter on this forum. Why are treating her in this cruel manner?
What if Lioness, in a fit of temporary lucidity and clarity, decided to go on a Natural Hair Journey and get her groove back on some sunny Caribbean island, like Barbados for instance, and returned looking like one of these images of the beautiful woman below, rather than the not particular conscious female displayed in her avatar?
Would you recognize her, greet her warmly and compliment her hair and her deep, rich brown tan, or would you shriek "eek-a-mouse" and ran away like the Negro male in this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06Sl_L5IEU?
Can you imagine how your failure to recognize could traumatize her, utterly destroy her self-confidence and leave her emotionally scarred for life, huh? Could you be so cruel to your Lioness?
Granted, the second one looks slightly airbrushed (an impolitic thing to say to a woman), but then again, you would say they are not pictures of the same woman because the lipstick is redder, and the hair is shorter and not as curly.
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
White Hapsburg
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Habsburg, stop being a cheap imitation Mike, thanks
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Habsburg, stop being a cheap imitation Mike, thanks
Other than using the term "Albino" which for me is more of a fun word, and is an indicator of Mike's view of who white people truly are, I don't see what makes me a cheap imitation of Mike.
I don't agree with Mike on all of his interpretations, but I will give him credit where it is due, as his website and forum topics provide a good deal of eye opening content, about information suppressed and ignored by the educational system and mainstream publications.
Back to subject of this topic, Mike has already formed his opinions, and all I have done is to ask him to reinterpret the image, and new information to support the case for that reinterpretation. It doesn't look like he has formed any premature judgements about it.
I used your avatar to indicate to Warrioress how having straight "white" hair or the semblance of it does not preclude the subject from being black, and how the depiction of the subject in their natural hair can result in the less astute failing to recognize them, but you, an apparently intelligent woman wilfully ignores or misses the point altogether, and makes out her approach to discussions to be superior to that of Mike.
You also may have failed to notice that Warrioress in her own inimitable style, opened the path to that line of discussion by this comment of hers: BTW, my hair curls like that last lady when it is unbrushed or wet. Also don't forget they had crude CURLING IRONS in that time period as well.
She just revealed the possibility that she herself may be of some African ancestry, after all we all know the lengths to which women of all races who have permed their hair go to avoid getting it wet.
The artist who drew the coin probably saw the white female on the left just after she had got caught in the rain. Celtic Warrioress just proved that being white wouldn't preclude Queen Charlotte from being the woman portrayed on the coin. Of course, neither of you have noticed that.
On the subject of "Black" European rulers, here is one you might find interesting.
Maximilien de Hénin-Liétard, graaf van Boussu, Stadtholder of the Netherlands
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Lioness Habsburg IS Mike LOL, I'm pretty sure of it. Dude the person is Lioness' avatar if I'm not mistaken is Michelle Ovomit, yes everyone knows some Black women STRAIGHTEN their hair because they want "White people hair" like Moochelle Ovomit fact is ITS NOT THEIR NATURAL HAIR Habsburg. None of the European royalty were Black. Again that pic NOT of a Black person sorry dude. As I've said many times, go find your own dang history IN AFRICA and leave mine & my people's alone.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Lioness Habsburg IS Mike LOL, I'm pretty sure of it. Dude the person is Lioness' avatar if I'm not mistaken is Michelle Ovomit, yes everyone knows some Black women STRAIGHTEN their hair because they want "White people hair" like Moochelle Ovomit fact is ITS NOT THEIR NATURAL HAIR Habsburg. None of the European royalty were Black. Again that pic NOT of a Black person sorry dude. As I've said many times, go find your own dang history IN AFRICA and leave mine & my people's alone.
Warrioress, why are you being so cruel to yoru main supporter here?
You have brutally and cruelly insulted her avatar. Last time I checked it is her husband who is the President and the one running her show, not Michelle herself. So why are you being so cruel to Lioness on account of her?
Lioness, you see how Celtic Warrioress feels about you inspite of your view of her as your bestie.
With "friends" like that who needs enemies?
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Habsburg, dude Lioness is not my bestie LOL, I don't even know Lioness off this forum nor do I speak to her in pms either. Do I respect Lioness yes, but heck I respected another member here who never posts anymore as well (Truthandrights). I only spoke the truth, if Michelle Ovomit was as proud a Black woman as she claims to be, she'd be rocking that fro or some other African hairstyle & would ensure her daughters did as well.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ Hapsburg, this is corect, stop trying to manipulate ,my posts have nothing to do with Celtic Warriores so this connection you are trying to make is complete fraud
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
On the subject of "Black" European rulers, here is one you might find interesting.
Maximilien de Hénin-Liétard, graaf van Boussu, Stadtholder of the Netherlands
[/QB]
^^^ why are you saying this portait of Maximilien de Hénin-Liétard made in 1592 fourteen years after he died Why are you saying he was a black man ?
. close up of the above
,
for comparison here is an actual black man
damn lightweights in here
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
Lioness you are truly unbelievable. I take it that in the backwoods well stocked with inbred retards where you reside, none of the people below are considered black because they have straight hair.
Above two are courtesy of Mike.
FYI. The woman above is Queen Liluokalani, the last monarch of Hawaii who passed away only as recently as 1917.
I suggest you get yourself a map to see where Hawaii is located in the Pacific Ocean, and ask yourself why black people who were capable of making it to that remote, isolated location, would never be capable of setting themselves up in Europe and apparently never did.
Notice she has the "good hair". It is not a perm.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
On the subject of "Black" European rulers, here is one you might find interesting.
Maximilien de Hénin-Liétard, graaf van Boussu, Stadtholder of the Netherlands
[/QB]
^^ Hapsburg why are you calling this guy black?
On what basis?
Do you just look at old European engravings and at random call people "black" ??
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
Your first argument was that straight hair meant the dude couldn't be black, and when that was debunked, you changed to "there is nothing in the engraving that indicates that he is black"
By the same token, there is nothing in the engraving that indicates he is white, and the same argument can be extended to all monochrome engravings of European people.
In fact there are more gray shading in the engraving of de Hénin-Liétard than in the photo of Queen Liluokalani, so I guess that makes her "white" then, Negroid features not withstanding.
Of course in your world race is not judged according to the duck principle.
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
damn lightweights in here [/QB]
Is it just my imagination or do you share Codfried's predilection for inserting images which are not relevant to the discussion?
Is this a white man, a white woman, a (light-skinned) black man, a black woman or what?
Lioness I am becoming worried for you. How did we get to this image from the question of Queen Charlotte and the Barbados penny? Is it your misogyny which leads you to believe that the person depicted on the coin can't be a female, but must be gay-looking man?
Enlighten me.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg: Is it your misogyny which leads you to believe that the person depicted on the coin can't be a female, but must be gay-looking man?
Enlighten me.
well you're right
I told your dumb ass. If the coin was a specific person and not a generic heraldic symbol then the king or queens name would be on the coin.
I think Mike would agree that there is no reason to think that the person here if male is gay looking. Where did you come up with that?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
By the same token, there is nothing in the engraving that indicates he is white, and the same argument can be extended to all monochrome engravings of European people.
well I guess you're right, this applies to American leaders as well
.
In fact there are more gray shading in the engraving of de George Washington than in the photo of Queen Liluokalani
so I guess his features make him Negroid, as well as Hawaiians
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
Your subconscious seems to have betrayed you again. Apparently you share my opinion that the figure on the right with the short neck must be the male.
I have also added a new word that one or two Egypt Searchers might like to add to their vocabulary.
The word is: Septum
The picture comparing the images of Queen Charlotte I posted earlier might enhance an appreciation of the word.
For such a long term member of forum named Egypt Search I would have thought you would have developed an appreciation for the saying "Denial is not a river in Egypt"
It is amazing how their disappointment at the fact that the image of the nappy-haired young black female they see on a coin is actually the depiction of a previous Queen of the United Kingdom, prevents people from seeing what is right under their noses, literally speaking, based on evidence which is right under their noses, again literally speaking. It sorely undermines their image of Britain, even in the case of black people, with the expectation of Snow White queens and all that. It cannot be, it must not be. It is simply too much for some people to bear. This issue is better discussed in a forum on social psychology. Some soul searching is called for.
Here is the word again : Septum Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
Your subconscious seems to have betrayed you again. Apparently you share my opinion that the figure on the right with the short neck must be the male.
quote me agreeing that the figure on the right with the short neck must be the male.
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
I have also added a new word that one or two Egypt Searchers might like to add to their vocabulary.
The word is: Septum
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
For such a long term member of forum named Egypt Search I would have thought you would have developed an appreciation for the saying "Denial is not a river in Egypt"
I don't use that saying becaues it's extremely played out and corny
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg:
It is amazing how their disappointment at the fact that the image of the nappy-haired young black female they see on a coin is actually the depiction of a previous Queen of the United Kingdom, prevents people from seeing what is right under their noses, literally speaking, based on evidence which is right under their noses, again literally speaking. It sorely undermines their image of Britain, even in the case of black people, with the expectation of Snow White queens and all that.
But ok I guess here the old saying fits, denial is not a river in Egypt, recap of what you are in denial about
1) Royal coins have the king or queen's name written on the coins but the Barbados penny doesn't (you have no answer for this again, right?)
2) While the three plumes are a heraldic badge of the Prince of Wales there is no king depicted in any European art with a crown that has these three feathers sticking up from it (you have no answer for this again, right?)
3) In all paintings of Queen Charlottes her skin tone is quite white and no written document of the period that says otherwise Do we need to go on ??? Look at her damn skin tone and golden brown hair. Mick Jagger is black? Angelina Jolie is black ???
4) The Barbados penny person has nappy short hair Charlotte did not have nappy hair and it wasn't short Again, The Barbados penny person has nappy short hair Charlotte did not have nappy hair and it wasn't short In other words it's clearly not a match to the coin
5) The Barbados penny person has a very thick prominant brow ridge, this is the bulge on the forehead above the eye. It's not feminine and depictions of Queen Charlotte don't have this
6) she had her mother's large round eyes and her father's nose Do we need to go on???
7) Was Queen Charlotte a good person? What, you don't know a damn thing about who she was and what she did in life all you are interested in is her facial features
8) Why do you call yourself "Hapsburg" ?
9) So all the coins in King George III coins in Europe with his name on it are fake, all the paintings are fake (what was the name of that river in Egypt again?) -- but a coin from Barbados that doesn't have his name on it is him, and the only reason is you want it to be that way?
Or could it be that when you educate yourself with Mike's website instead of reading books you enter a nutty fantasy land where up is down and down is up?
Let's end the nonsense>>
. George III & Queen Charlotte (Halfpenny token) - 1794
. Coronation medal of Queen Charlotte, 1761
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
Lioness, I have never understood why so many participants on this forum have so many epithets for you, but now it is obvious to me.
All your responses are straw man arguments, or should I say, straw lioness arguments.
You haven't produced a single counter argument on the the key points I raised. The issue of actually noting the points I made is quite a separate one from accepting the overall conclusion. Why can't you simply focus on the points alone? The conclusions can be discussed later, if at all.
I have pointed out to you that the septum of the figure of the coin, is the same as the septum of the white figure on the miniature. You have refused to discuss it.
If you look at some of the "official" coins of King George you displayed to support your argument, you see that they all display a short neck, compared with Queen Charlotte. Even the 1794 half penny coin you just displayed shows the short neck compared with Queen Charlotte.
Queen Charlotte has a bulge on her throat, which is very evident in the Sir Allan Ramsay portait you displayed. The same bulge is visible in the coronation medal you just posted and it is also visible on the figure on the Barbados penny as well, but is done more subtly on these coins.
You write so much about hair, pretending that you don't know that wigs were the fashion in those days. You pretend not to understand that hair can be styled, and Queen Charlotte's hair is the one the can naturally rise straight of the skull like that, because her hair texture is a black person's hair texture, just like the contemporary Princess Anne.
Obviously you are not bright enough to see what is evident here. As a slave owner, probably with mixed-race bastard children and grandchildren of his own, not to mention those of his forebears, he knew how mixed race people looked like and could see the same traits in lots of British nobility, including the Royal family, and that is why he had no issues depicting the figures with their natural hair. Remember that he had access to the Royal family and the Prime Minister and could see the similarities, and extrapolate from it.
The crux of my argument is below. All I am doing is asking a simple question. The septum on the images below are virtually identical, given that one is on a miniature and the other is a stamp on a coin which has aged. The issue of whether that makes them depictions of the same person, whether Queen Charlotte or not, is an entirely separate matter, and can be debated elsewhere.
Can you give a simple YES or NO answer, as to whether the septums look very similar or not? It will help us judge whether you can debate on a point that has been presented or not, rather than indulge in endless straw man arguments.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
It's also telling that Mike doesn't even support your theory on the crowed person on the Barbados penny
I presented 5 strong counter arguments that this penny depicts Queen Charlotte but because I didn't address you septum obsession you incorrectly write them off as "straw man arguments" I guess anytime you want a specific question answered valid arguments on a claim are all "straw man arguments" A "straw man argument" means if I were to take one of your claims and exaggerate it so that it becomes ridiculous. In other words if I said "Hapsburg thinks all black people have a septum like Queen Charlotte broach but look at these photos of black people that don't" That is a misrepresentation of what you said in an attempt to shoot it down easily. I notice you do this a lot, misrepresenting my point of view. Your belief is that the Barbados penny represents Queen Charlotte That is accurately your belief not a straw man exaggeration or distortion of it. Therefore I have not been using straw man arguments just countering your claim
Now I will address your septum obsession. Forensic specialists don't specify the septum as being highly relevant in identification but I look at it for you.
First I must mention that if you rely too heavily on Mike's website and not other sources also it's limited. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Example, Mike website:
Now either you have already decided the penny is is Queen Charlotte and nothing will change you mind
or you remain open minded
Above we have two versions of the Barbados penny, slightly different, one from 1788 another from 1792. Your proposal is that 1788 is King George and 1792 is Queen Charlotte. Now right there the claim is ridiculous, that they would have the exact same hairstyle, same loop earring (which European kings and queens dont have, nor Charlotte in other portraits) and importantly same crown. Did it ever occur to you that a king and a queen depicted with the same crown could be a problem? That maybe it's a king or a queen not both? Nevermind you want to harp on the septum, ok
This is the point where you need to realize you need to check out Mike's information with other sources for context. - or is that some kind of violation of the Mike's minions code ??
Anyway looking above at the 1792 penny you are interested in the scientific thing to do is to look at other examples of this same penny, maybe some that are less worn.
O.k. lets look at a better condition Barbados penny from the Victoria museum. Notice that with the coin at right from Mike's site the words "I serve" are partially cut off indicating the outer edge of the coin is worn down (letter "S" )
Having a similar septum would prove nothing however when we look at another of the same penny from the same mold we see that what you think is the shape of septum is really a wear effect. In fact in the less worn out coin we see the septum is not what you thought it was. Furthermore look again at the thick bulge above the eye, part of the forehead. Queen Charlotte didn't have that, why do you persist? But the Queen had short hair, right? wrong, show me a painting or engraving with her having short hair
Now before you get mad and try to make up a rationale to retain your hard headed belief take 15 minutes to look at some other coins at random on the internet, see google images.
Look at some U.S. coins, pennies, nickels, quarters Add to the search "heavy wear" Then look at some new ones and compare them to some more worn ones. Look closely at some of the details, anatomy of the face. You are going to see that things that appear to describe the form of the face in more worn out coins are actually a result of the wear
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The gradual abolition off the slave trade or leaving of sugar by degrees 1792 by S W Fores
King George III and Queen Charlotte sit side by side, facing the spectator, behind a circular breakfast-table; two Princesses are on the King's right, Mrs. Schwellenburg on the Queen's left, the figures being three-quarter length. and the surface of the table filling the centre foreground. Princess Elizabeth, in profile to the right, holds out her cup, saying, "Indeed papa, I cant leave of a good thing so soon, I am sure of late I have been very moderate, but I must have a bit now & then." The King, who wears a nightcap and holds a brimming saucer in one hand, a cup whose contents he is spilling in the other, answers, "Poo Poo Poo, leave it off at once, you know I have never Drank any since I was married Lizie." Her sister, on the extreme left, turns her head away in disgust, saying, "for my Part I'd rather Want alltogether than have a small Piece." Queen Charlotte, much caricatured, wearing a plain cap and morning gown, takes tiny pieces of sugar from a basin to weigh them in a small pair of scales, like those used for weighing guineas (cf. BMSat 8117), which she holds between finger and thumb; she grins delightedly, looking at Mrs. Schwellenberg, and saying, "Now my Dear's only an ickle Bit, do but tink on de Negro girl dat Captain Kimber treated so cruelly ha, Madam Swelly & Rum too." Mrs. Schwellenberg (right), grasping a bottle of Brandy in both hands, answers, "oh to be sure I was taken but an ickle at a time, an ickle and often you know & as for de Rum I dont care about it. good Coniac will make shift aha !!" In the shadow between the Queen and her Keeper of Robes is a face gaping at the table, perhaps intended for a younger princess. On the table are a small tea-pot and cream jug on an oval tray, and two piles of muffins. 15 April 1792. Hand-coloured etching
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
lioness, you must be retarded.
All your post shows is that the artist damn well knew about Charlotte´s racial ancestry.
1. The caricature: Nose and Lips ....
2. Her comments of fauz concern about the ¨Negro girl -----¨
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: lioness, you must be retarded.
All your post shows is that the artist damn well knew about Charlotte´s racial ancestry.
1. The caricature: Nose and Lips ....
2. Her comments of fauz concern about the ¨Negro girl -----¨
what it shows is a table of white people (albino according to Mike) discussing how much African slave harvested sugar they wanted to put into their tea
Another cartoon 1792
quote:
George III of England (1738–1820) with his wife Charlotte (1744–1818) and their six daughters at the tea table. The queen tries to persuade the sceptical daughters of the pleasures of drinking unsweetened tea with the following argument:
"You can't think how nice it is without Sugar: - and then consider how much Work you'll save the poor Blackeemoors by leaving off the use of it! - and above all, remember how much expence it will save your poor Papa!"
As we can see by her skin tone she was not even light brown skinned mulatto much less a " Blackeemoor" but she was sympathetic to black people being enslaved by plantation owners supported by her husband King George. However slavery wasn't abolished in England until 1833, 13 years after she died, so this imaginary tea conversation was blowing in the wind
Another thing we have learned from these cartoons is that the coins below obviously don't represent King George or Queen Charlotte...
unless you are insane
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
My last post ended with a simple question. Whether the septums are similar or not, and you still haven't answered it. I even stated that it is possible to answer the question, irregardless of whether it may be interpreted as an admission on your part that the coin depicts Queen Charlotte or not and you still refuse to answer the question.
There are variations of the coin, and this is not the only one that displays the a similar septum and some of them are brand new coins which were never circulated.
Let us take what I mean by straw man arguments. You keep blabbering on about how there is no coin featuring Prince of Wales crown and feathers on the subject's head, and that on real coins the names of the royals are indicated on the coin. Surprise, I never said such coins exist.
I have never said the coins were official currency. What I said was the figures depicted on those coins are Queen Charlotte and Queen George.
What I also mentioned is that the so called experts at one or two galleries and museums refuse to acknowledge in their descriptions of the coins, for the sake of those who don't know, that the Prince of Wales feathers, crown and motto are featured on the coins, irregardless of whether the people depicted are slaves, blacks, whites, royals or whatever.
quote:The front, or obverse, of the coin has the profile of a black African man or woman with a plumed crown above the words 'I SERVE'. Enslaved Africans had worked the sugar plantations of Barbados since the mid-1600s. The crown and plumes are harder to explain. The plumes are usually associated with the Prince of Wales, whose motto is also 'I serve' . This suggests the design was intended to be humorous or satirical.
The people who noticed the Prince of Wales crown and plumes may have considered it satirical, but at least they recognized it and acknowledged it. You of course must know by now that the relationship of Philip Gibbes with King George and the Prime Minister makes that unlikely. What of the so called gallery and museum experts?
Consider this point you made:
quote:Now I will address your septum obsession. Forensic specialists don't specify the septum as being highly relevant in identification but I look at it for you
I never said that the forensic specialists consider the septum as good way of identifying people. What I said was the septums on both the images are very similar. Of course you did not present what I used as the basis for my argument and went used another image. This is what is meant by a straw man argument.
This is all I asked - Do you consider the two profiles similar, could they be of the same person, granted that one of them is an impression stamped on a coin? How difficult can that be? Just look at that image and give your honest opinion.
Why don't you conduct a poll using the picture without giving any clue about the origin of the figures and see the response?
I don't have the time to debate with you endlessly.
I have a few things for you to note if you are capable of committing yourself to genuine enquiry and unbiased research.
I have mentioned the bulge on Queen Charlotte's throat that is very evident in the Sir Allan Ramsay portrait, which also appears on the coin image I believe to be Queen Charlotte.
I also think should you should take a closer look at the black servant in the Queen Charlotte portaits you posted, and compare it with the image on the coin, especially the shape of the cheeks. You might as well compare it with images of all the Hanovers and their descendants, right down to this day.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Every one of your links that shows the 1792 Barbados penny in better condition has a septum dismilar to the broach. On the broach the septum seems to come up on an angle going toward the tip of the nose, on the coin it is a curve which doesn't go out as far where it meet the nose.
For each year there is only one mold to make the coin, therefore the worn out version of the coin which does, yes appear to have a similar septum to, specifically a broach is irrelevant because when we can look at a less worn version of the coin we are looking at how the worn out version would have looked when it was new, capish ? -new, not so similar You are doing a dishonest comparision when you pick an item from the same mold which is in worse condition then another
Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Doxie may be simple and repetitive, but at least she is honest.
Lioness is just insane. Her wilful obliviousness to the fact that the evidence she uses to support her arguments actually supports the opposition case is proof of it.
Even a simple person sees that all the people in the picture have been portrayed in a yellow complexion (rather than the pink of Caucasians), and display wider nostrils and fuller lips than the Caucasian average. The faces of the first three girls are more brown than yellow when compared with the hands. The caricature can only be displaying what must have commonly known back then.
The background is a light green which blends into the yellow. Change the background to blue, like the sky for instance. Give the girls a wider range of hair colours and remove their bonnets and it would all be glaringly obvious, except to Lioness.
Take a good look at ALL the girls. You could forgiven for believing that the cartoonist got a group of black girls to sit for the cartoon, rather than the girls of the Royal family. Consider the 2nd and 4th from the right and picture them with a browner colour. What is wrong with Lioness?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
It's like that thing where certain black folk bleach their skin except it's done to history
pink is the new black
Posted by jantavanta (Member # 20328) on :
I see a deeper insight into paintings and coins .
@Habsburg I recall there was your Nairaland post that showed the real Queen Charlotte to be the one kneeling down.
Before photography, paintings and coins were the only means of representation and had to be painstakingly detailed beyond the untrained observer's resolving ability.
Based on the analysis so far, I accept that one coin represents King George, and the other one, Queen Charlotte.
Posted by jantavanta (Member # 20328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habsburg: [QUOTE]Originally ..........
Even a simple person sees that all the people in the picture have been portrayed in a yellow complexion (rather than the pink of Caucasians), and display wider nostrils and fuller lips than the Caucasian average. The faces of the first three girls are more brown than yellow when compared with the hands. The
Take a good look at ALL the girls. You could forgiven for believing that the cartoonist got a group of black girls to sit for the cartoon, rather than the girls of the Royal family. Consider the 2nd and 4th from the right and picture them with a browner colour. What is wrong with Lioness?
The 2nd and 4th from the right have a backward slant heads. With a browner complexion, they would be black girls.
Posted by jantavanta (Member # 20328) on :
The woman at the table has wide full lips and a protuding chin, reminds me of Millie Jackson.
Posted by GamboGreek (Member # 22910) on :
The guy on the penny is most likely related to the Madoc legend. There are images of Black Native Americans wearing crowns like that. One done by William Rush.
The Prince of Wales's feathers by The British Monarchy, on Flickr
Charlotte on Brooch and Coin Combined
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
