Originally posted by xyyman:
Nothing...??
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Where am I going with this? Can we really distingish or diffrentiate ancient Greeks and Africans?
quote:"likely a"
Originally posted by kdolo:
"Mask of Agamemnon" is most likely a fake made by Schlieman.
The bronze ??? Looks a little too clean......
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
, I mean, Europeans lie!!!!quote:^^^ this article says " My evidence is circumstantial"
Originally posted by kdolo:
[qb] The Mycenae Agamemnon mask is a fake.....everybody knows that....
A Bronze age king with handle bar mustache like.......Schliemann's!!! Ridiculous.
http://archive.archaeology.org/9907/etc/calder.html
quote:that is total bullshit
Originally posted by kdolo:
The other....too clean to be an ancient bronze....another fake.
quote:
Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
E-mail correspondence re-iterating some of the points he made in one of the lectures I've attended. I spoke with him afterwards.
quote:Irish.
Who is "he"?
quote:You don't know anything about the statue or it's condition
Originally posted by kdolo:
Clean....no pits, crannies, dents, etc.......too smooth...too clean...
It is a fake.....maybe even an expert restoration "based on" the original....
Schliemann's mask .... that is obvious.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
<<< If you can't make your point w/o name calling then fuhgeddaboudid >>>
quote:
Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
quote:Irish.
Who is "he"?
Nov 2014.
quote:Apparently so.
Can we really distingish or diffrentiate ancient Greeks and Africans?
quote:Man am I tired of this kind of bullshit.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Nothing...??
quote:Man am I tired of this kind of bullshit.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Nothing...??
quote:You can easily tell the fake sections of the piece vs the "retouched" added portions.
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Nothing...??
BTW ancient Minoans were not Greeks.
quote:There was also a lecture with 200-300 people in attendance...
TR referenced Irish,through "personal" email.
quote:
Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
quote:There was also a lecture with 200-300 people in attendance...
TR referenced Irish,through "personal" email.
quote:Hey, if you don't want to listen and ramble inanities to yourself in cyberspace then that's up to you.
Come on young man. You still haven't given me anything. 100 or 5000 people or emails, dont mean shyte. What you are saying was published?
quote:Hahaha,nice thread xyman.don't also forget they added white people in North African rock paintings..white people are degenerate liars..but what is funny one of the rock paintings I saw ones shows white people wearing medieval clothing style(they are so stupid).
Originally posted by xyyman:
Nothing...??
quote:Hahaha,nice thread xyman.don't also forget they added white people in North African rock paintings..white people are degenerate liars..but what is funny one of the rock paintings I saw ones shows white people wearing medieval clothing style(they are so stupid).
Originally posted by xyyman:
Nothing...??
quote:
Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
Yawn.
quote:Hey, if you don't want to listen and ramble inanities to yourself in cyberspace then that's up to you.
Come on young man. You still haven't given me anything. 100 or 5000 people or emails, dont mean shyte. What you are saying was published?
The Greeks were a distinct people in Africa.
The End.
quote:One of this idiots favorite picks to defend Europeans diversity,
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Dodobird, those are females
^^^^ this is male and female of the same ethnic group
.
quote:http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008651;p=1#000000
Originally posted by the lioness,:
World Skin Tone Chart
-also depending on amount of time a population has been living at a particular latitude
quote:Emile Gilliéron père (Swiss, 1850–1924), Electrotype reproduction of the gold "Mask of Agamemnon" from Mycenae, ca. 1906. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Dodge Fund, 1906 (06.224)
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:^^^ this article says " My evidence is circumstantial"
Originally posted by kdolo:
[qb] The Mycenae Agamemnon mask is a fake.....everybody knows that....
A Bronze age king with handle bar mustache like.......Schliemann's!!! Ridiculous.
http://archive.archaeology.org/9907/etc/calder.html
that means it's not proof
quote:that is total bullshit
Originally posted by kdolo:
The other....too clean to be an ancient bronze....another fake.
do you know that sometimes statues are cleaned ?
You don't know anything
quote:http://australianmuseum.net.au/image/mask-of-agamemnon
The gold Mask of Agamemnon was discovered in 1876 by Heinrich Schliemann during his excavations at Mycenae in Greece. It was found covering the face of a body in a burial shaft (grave V, Grave Circle A).
Schliemann supposedly telegrammed a Greek newspaper when he first saw the mask with the line "I have gazed on the face of Agamemnon". In fact, he never identified it as belonging to Agamemnon (the legendary Greek leader during the Trojan War who tradition says was buried at Mycenae), but it became associated with the hero as it was the finest of 5 funerary masks found in the graves of Mycenean leaders.
The mask dates to about 1550–1500 BC, about 300 years earlier than the traditional date for Agamemnon.
The mask is displayed in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens and a replica is housed at Mycenae.
quote:http://www.greeka.com/peloponnese/mycenae/agamemnon-mask.htm
However, modern researchers and archaeologists are of the opinion that the mask dates from an era much before the life and reign of Agamemnon. Whatever the case is, this mask is crafted out of pure gold and such masks were put on the faces of deceased kings and royal people.
quote:so you are of the opinion that skin tone has no relation to a popualtion's long term proximity to the equator ?
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:The dolo get's to a point where it just becomes ridiculous. [/QB]
Originally posted by the lioness.
World Skin Tone Chart
-also depending on amount of time a population has been living at a particular latitude
quote:I am of the opinion that what you type and fetch as truth is mostly pure B.S..
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:so you are of the opinion that skin tone has no relation to a popualtion's long term proximity to the equator ? [/QB]
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008651;p=1#000000
Originally posted by the lioness.
World Skin Tone Chart
-also depending on amount of time a population has been living at a particular latitude
The dolo get's to a point where it just becomes ridiculous. [/QB]
quote:--María Cerezo et al.
In this study, we investigated the most likely origin of haplogroup L lineages of African origin in Europe. Given the criteria of autochthony used coupled with the results yielded by the analysis of ancestry based on AIMs, we could rule out (at least in our samples) the bias that recent immigrants could have introduced in the results.
A large proportion (65%) of the African-European mtDNAs investigated could be attributed to modern and well-documented demographic routes that existed during the Romanization period, the Arab conquest, and the trans-Atlantic slave trade. However, there is strong evidence pointing to the fact that the remaining 35% of the L-European mtDNAs stand as modern witnesses of sporadic population movements occurring between the two continents that might have begun as early as 11,000 yr ago (Fig. 5). These contacts were not only restricted to North Africa, but connected sub-Saharan regions to Europe directly via coastal routes or first crossing North African territories toward the Mediterranean Sea.
Previous studies (Achilli et al. 2005; Ottoni et al. 2010; Pereira et al. 2010) provided evidences of mtDNA flow from Europe toward North Africa during the Holocene; thus, North Africa would represent the Southern African edge of post–Last Glacial Maximum expansions spreading from European refugee. Here, we show, for the first time, genetic evidence signaling prehistorical movements in the opposite direction, from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe. It is likely that most of the signals in the nuclear genome of this ancestral gene admixture between African immigrants and local Europeans had been erased by historical recombination and genetic drift. Therefore, as demonstrated in the present study, the mtDNA genome (and perhaps the Y chromosome) (Capelli et al. 2009) is the source to rescue the echoes of prehistorical sub-Saharan movements into Europe.
Diagram showing the coalescence ages of L-European lineages and their 95% C.I. (see also Supplemental Table S2) and the estimated frequencies in Europe over the total number of existing L mitochondrial genomes from Europe.
The pie charts on the left indicate the frequency distribution of African haplogroups in Europe; the color circles within the map indicate the distribution of entire genomes in Europe clustered in main haplogroups. The pie charts on the right show the admixture components of L-European lineages in Africa.
Spatial haplogroup distribution of sub-Saharan African lineages in Europe based on control-region data. (A) Macro-haplogroup L; (B) haplogroup L1b. Green crosses in A indicate the sampled regions (see also Supplemental Data S1).
However the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
Results
The phylogeny of European haplogroup L mitogenomes
The phylogenetic relationships of the 56
novel and 13 previously reported L mi-
tochondrial genomes from Europe are
reported in Supplemental Figure S1. Sev-
eral novel minor L haplogroups that are
not present in Africans (or in African-
Americans) were detected. This finding,
together with the fact that these haplo-
groups show a certain level of molecular
divergence, suggests that these branches
could have evolved within Europe. One of
the most singular European haplogroup
L subclades is L3d1b1a, defined by the
stable diagnostic transversion A8014C
(Soares et al. 2009). We found L3d1b1a
exclusively in Italy (five subjects from
Tuscany, Umbria, and Campania) (Supplemental Table S1), thus most likely it evolved in situ. All individuals carried different haplotypes suggesting local divergence dating back to 3.6 kya (95% C.I.: 2.2–5.1) (Supplemental Table S2).
Malyarchuk et al. (2008) recently proposed that the subclade L2a1k, defined by the mutational motif G6722A-T12903C- C16218T-T16519C, could have originated in Europe ;10,300 6 5150 yr ago. We have built a maximum parsimony tree using all available L2a1 entire mtDNA sequences (Supplemental Fig. S2; Supplemental Table S3). Our data provide further support to the finding of Malyarchuk et al. (2008) because we did not observe representatives of L2a1k in our collection of African sequences (n = 2426). We also searched L2a profiles carrying the diagnostic con- trol-region variant C16218T in a large survey of African control-re- gion sequences (>13,700), but no potential L2a1k candidates were observed. However, it is important to note that variant C16218T could be a misleading diagnostic marker for L2a1k. Two of our samples from Benin and Cameroon carrying this variant were completely se- quenced and attributed to different clades, L2a1c8 and L2a1d (Sup- plemental Data S1; Supplemental Fig. S2). The TMRCA for L2a1k of 10.6 kya (95% C.I.: 9.9–11.3) is very similar to the previous estimate (Malyarchuk et al. 2008).
L1b is by far the most common L-African lineage in Europe, 49% according to complete mitogenomes (a total of 34, of which 30 are newly reported here), and 23% according to control-region data. Previous studies mainly based on control-region sequences (Salas et al. 2002) showed that haplogroup L1b is most frequent and diverse in West-central Africa (Fig. 1).
To further evaluate haplogroup L1b mtDNAs, we collected 73 L1b entire genomes (mainly from Africans and African-Americans) from the literature and GenBank, which together with the 30 novel sequences from Europe sum to 103 (Supplemental Table S4).
The phylogeny of the 103 L1b mitogenomes is provided in Figure 2. The vast majority of the non-European lineages were
sampled in North America (African-Americans and Hispanics; n = 40) and West-central Africa (n = 13), the latter being the most likely source for the majority of the L1b mtDNAs in America (Salas et al. 2005). Control-region data indicate that L1b haplotype di- versity is highest in East Africa, but the values of nucleotide diversity and the average number of nucleotide differences are highest in Western Africa (Bight of Biafra) (Supplemental Table S5). Demographic movements from sub-Saharan Africa could have spread L1b to the North (;1% and ;5% in Northeast and Northwest Africa, respectively).
Given the phylogeny, the frequency, and the diversity pat- terns observed in Africa for L1b, it is likely that this haplogroup arose in West Africa, from where it moved to other African and non-African locations. There is a subclade of L1b defined by the transition A16289G (Fig. 2) and named here L1b1a2a, which could have originated later in East Africa (represented by three divergent sequences from Ethiopia: GenBank accession numbers EU092952, EU092942, and EU092950). L1b1a2a could have moved from East Africa to the North downstream the Nile shores toward Egypt (repre- sented by the complete genome EU092775). The immediate ancestral node, L1b1a2 (Fig. 2), is represented by a single mitogenome observed in Israel (the Bedouin sequence EU092672) (Behar et al. 2008). There are two representatives of L1b1a2a in Spain (one of them in Galicia; Northwest Spain), which could have arrived during the period of the Atlantic slave trade or the Arab invasion of the Iberian Peninsula.
We have also identified a new subclade of L1b1a, here named L1b1a9, characterized by the transversion G185C and the transi- tion T14040C (Fig. 2). In contrast to most of the L1b subclades, L1b1a9 has a clear North African and Mediterranean distribution. It perhaps originated in Northwest Africa (as represented by the Moroccan Jew sequence EU092667) and afterward moved to different European Mediterranean locations (mainly Iberia and Italy). Two L1b1a9 sequences were found in Iberia (Galicia and Cata- lonia), three in the Italian Peninsula, and one in France.
quote:so you are of the opinion that skin tone has no relation to a population's long term proximity to the equator ?
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I am of the opinion that what you type and fetch as truth is mostly pure B.S..
Originally posted by the lioness,:
so you are of the opinion that skin tone has no relation to a populaltion's long term proximity to the equator ?
quote:--María Cerezo et al.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The pie charts on the left indicate the frequency distribution of African haplogroups in Europe; the color circles within the map indicate the distribution of entire genomes in Europe clustered in main haplogroups. The pie charts on the right show the admixture components of L-European lineages in Africa.
Spatial haplogroup distribution of sub-Saharan African lineages in Europe based on control-region data. (A) Macro-haplogroup L; (B) haplogroup L1b. Green crosses in A indicate the sampled regions (see also Supplemental Data S1).
However the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
where is your scientific evidence modern Egytptians are heavily admixed with Europeans. Notable Greeks and Romans.
quote:This is not about my opinion. It's about what your post exactly represents, isn't it?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:so you are of the opinion that skin tone has no relation to a population's long term proximity to the equator ?
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I am of the opinion that what you type and fetch as truth is mostly pure B.S..
Originally posted by the lioness,:
so you are of the opinion that skin tone has no relation to a populaltion's long term proximity to the equator ?
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:--María Cerezo et al.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The pie charts on the left indicate the frequency distribution of African haplogroups in Europe; the color circles within the map indicate the distribution of entire genomes in Europe clustered in main haplogroups. The pie charts on the right show the admixture components of L-European lineages in Africa.
Spatial haplogroup distribution of sub-Saharan African lineages in Europe based on control-region data. (A) Macro-haplogroup L; (B) haplogroup L1b. Green crosses in A indicate the sampled regions (see also Supplemental Data S1).
However the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3337428/
quote:This desperate loon lioness, who operates under different names, likely doesn't understand that there were no planes back then. There was only a few ways to get out of Africa, on foot by small populations. One of them was the hub of Northeast Africa, known as Egypt. Of course this wasn't the only hub.
Originally posted by xyyman:
where is your scientific evidence modern Egytptians are heavily admixed with Europeans. Notable Greeks and Romans.
quote:--Eliška Podgorná et al.
The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
where is your scientific evidence modern Egytptians are heavily admixed with Europeans ?
quote:here's a Mathilda post from 2008
Originally posted by xyyman:
Maybe someone can help me out here. The idea came to mind in that thread on ”foreign ancestry in modern Egyptians”.
DJ (the ahem) made statement but as usual cannot back it up. So…I could not find any study.
What is the percentage of EUROPEAN ancestry in modern Egypt. A lot of posters repeatedly state that Egyptians were infiltrated by Greeks, Romans, Persian etc. We got the Ottoman Turks out of the way.
So …are there any studies isolating “Romans” and “Greeks” IN Egypt. Notabley along the male lines. Since female hg-H is resolved.
quote:You over estimate the amount of knowledge it takes to guess right on something like this.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:"likely a"
Originally posted by kdolo:
"Mask of Agamemnon" is most likely a fake made by Schlieman.
The bronze ??? Looks a little too clean......
and
"looks a little too"
are not proof of anything
so stop the nonsense, thanks
-and you don't know anything about ancient art to even make these guesses
quote:You also know nothing about the condition of ancient statuary and whether or not looking at photos on the internet is even a legitimate way of analyzing them.
Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:You over estimate the amount of knowledge it takes to guess right on something like this.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:"likely a"
Originally posted by kdolo:
"Mask of Agamemnon" is most likely a fake made by Schlieman.
The bronze ??? Looks a little too clean......
and
"looks a little too"
are not proof of anything
so stop the nonsense, thanks
-and you don't know anything about ancient art to even make these guesses
quote:This should be fun...
For your information Joel Irish said no such thing. Do you want to know why?
quote:Irish said:
So I ask again. Can we distinguished ancient Greeks from Africans?
It seems like they left no genetic trace in Africa. Am I wrong?
quote:Oh come on, you're looking absolutely ridiculous. You really are.
Did you write that yourself? Come on man...I need sources ...not a "personal" email.
quote:It was "long winded" but we finally got there!
Originally posted by kdolo:
"they were the SAME black people carrying AFRICAN PN2.
aha !!!
same/similar fucking people !!
quote:
Originally posted by kdolo:
xyyman,
can you summarize it all please. For Doxie's sake ???
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman
Oh! And to address the Romans. The LATEST DNA study also confirms the Etruscans came from the "south" and not from Anatolia. Babujani et al refused to use the words black Africa. He used the word "south". Now tell me what lies south of Estrustia besides the Sea ...and Africa. lol!
Greek...Romans...Africans
quote:the leader of the study is
Originally posted by kdolo:
can you provide the study on the Etrsucans ....
quote:
We could obtain amplifiable DNA from 14 Etruscan specimens. Four of them, from Tarquinia, were analyzed in 2004 but were still unpublished. Ten samples come from 18 initial bone samples (each represented by two fragments of the right tibia) from a 3rd century BC multiple burial in Casenovole, Southern Tuscany.
quote:
Comparisons with 52 modern populations in the TUS and EUR datasets (listed in Table S2) show that 11 of these sequences are shared with at least one of 4,910 individuals from Western Eurasia and the Southern Mediterranean shore (Table S1).
quote:____________________
We obtained 18 bone samples (each represented by two fragments of the right tibia) from a multiple burial from Casenovole, Southern Tuscany, near Grosseto.
quote:
Abstract
The Etruscan culture is documented in Etruria, Central Italy, from the 8th to the 1st century BC. For more than 2,000 years there has been disagreement on the Etruscans’ biological origins, whether local or in Anatolia. Genetic affinities with both Tuscan and Anatolian populations have been reported, but so far all attempts have failed to fit the Etruscans’ and modern populations in the same genealogy. We extracted and typed the hypervariable region of mitochondrial DNA of 14 individuals buried in two Etruscan necropoleis, analyzing them along with other Etruscan and Medieval samples, and 4,910 contemporary individuals from the Mediterranean basin. Comparing ancient (30 Etruscans, 27 Medieval individuals) and modern DNA sequences (370 Tuscans), with the results of millions of computer simulations, we show that the Etruscans can be considered ancestral, with a high degree of confidence, to the current inhabitants of Casentino and Volterra, but not to the general contemporary population of the former Etruscan homeland. By further considering two Anatolian samples (35 and 123 individuals) we could estimate that the genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia date back to at least 5,000 years ago, strongly suggesting that the Etruscan culture developed locally, and not as an immediate consequence of immigration from the Eastern Mediterranean shores.
quote:
Only assuming very high mutation rates, at least twice as large as estimated in Henn et al. [13], was it possible to obtain separation times less than 5,000 years (Figure S7B). With both Anatolian samples, any degree of gene flow after separation between the ancestors of Tuscans and Anatolians resulted in more remote separation times
quote:
As for the Etruscans’ origins, ancient DNA is of little use, because pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture, cremated their dead [1], and hence their genetic features are unknown. DNAs from modern humans and cattle in Tuscany show affinities with Near Eastern DNAs, which was interpreted as supporting Herodotus’ narrative [2], [6], but in these studies modern Tuscans were assumed to be descended from Etruscan ancestors, in contrast with ancient DNA evidence [5]. The claim that systematic errors in the Etruscan DNA sequences led to flawed genealogical inference [2], [7] is not supported by careful reanalysis of the data
quote:_____________________
As also suggested by the analysis of skull diversity [26], contacts between people from the Eastern Mediterranean shores and Central Italy likely date back to a remote stage of prehistory, possibly to the spread of farmers from the Near East during the Neolithic period [27], [28], but not necessarily so (we only estimated a minimum separation time between gene pools). At any rate, these contacts occurred much earlier than, and hence appear unrelated with, the onset of the Etruscan culture (Figure 5). We conclude that no available genetic evidence suggests an Etruscan origin outside Italy. While their culture disappeared from the records, the Etruscans’ mtDNAs did not; traces of this heritage are still recognizable. However, most current inhabitants of the ancient Etruscan homeland appear descended from different ancestors along the female lines, as clearly shown by the analysis of the urban (Florence) sample. Genetic continuity since the Etruscan’s time is still evident only in relatively isolated localities, such as Casentino and Volterra.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman
Oh! And to address the Romans. The LATEST DNA study also confirms the Etruscans came from the "south" and not from Anatolia. Babujani et al refused to use the words black Africa. He used the word "south". Now tell me what lies south of Estrustia besides the Sea ...and Africa. lol!
Greek...Romans...Africans [/QB]
quote:so, xyyman mentioned an article where one of the authors is named Babujani. You asked for the link and I put it up
Originally posted by kdolo:
Lioness,
That study is typical Euro babble......
It doesnt say anything....
quote:xyyman's latest theory is that while modern European females may have come from the Yamanya steppe culture (by the way not located in Central Asia but located in the European side of Russia) he thinks modern European males are descendants of North Africans, that caucasians originate in North Africa
Originally posted by xyyman:
A good example of "doublespeak" is that new paper by Haak on the Steppe IndoEuropean language. On the surface it looks like he is saying the Indo-European people came from the Steppes. But buried within the Supplementals he made it clear that modern European males did NOT descend from the Steppe Yamanya!! Classic doublespeak. Now, did he lie in the paper? Definitely not. But he lead us on, and the Euronuts dream was fulfilled if they are stupid enough only to read the Abstract and not the Supplementals.
I know these people. I know their MO.
I work on the scientific field. I know the internal conflict they are battling. One of the biggest SIN and shameful acts is falsifying data. Their "work around " is skewing the sampling. Ie deliberately leaving out sample groups although it makes absolute sense to include the said group.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
A good example of "doublespeak" is that new paper by Haak on the Steppe IndoEuropean language. On the surface it looks like he is saying the Indo-European people came from the Steppes. But buried within the Supplementals he made it clear that modern European males did NOT descend from the Steppe Yamanya!! Classic doublespeak. Now, did he lie in the paper? Definitely not. But he lead us on, and the Euronuts dream was fulfilled if they are stupid enough only to read the Abstract and not the Supplementals.
I know these people. I know their MO.
I work in the scientific field. I know the internal conflict they are battling. One of the biggest SIN and shameful acts is falsifying data. Their "work around " is skewing the sampling. Ie deliberately leaving out sample groups although it makes absolute sense to include the said group.
quote:quote me where I'm lying
Originally posted by xyyman:
@Lioness, there you go. What is up with you white males and your obsession with lying ?. I always contend MTDNA hg-H is of African origin. See all my discussion on R. Kefi. smh.
The modern white European male origins is still needs to be resolved.
I will repeat here again , "Europeans are a subset of Africans". Depigmented ones
The unfortunate thing is, my gut is telling R1b1a2-M269 also has a recent African origin.
Why? The geographic pattern of this Haplogroup in Europe, it's sibling R1a and the pattern of the upstream clade on the African coasts and Sardinia .
quote:^So you are retracting this?
Originally posted by xyyman:
The end game is to confirm Greek presence in Egypt.
Central Asians
I 2nd guess anything written by Europeans especially in "their" history books. Science don't lie....it can be twisted or misread.
quote:Mathilda wrote a lot of bullshit! Doesn't make it true!
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:here's a Mathilda post from 2008
Originally posted by xyyman:
Maybe someone can help me out here. The idea came to mind in that thread on ”foreign ancestry in modern Egyptians”.
DJ (the ahem) made statement but as usual cannot back it up. So…I could not find any study.
What is the percentage of EUROPEAN ancestry in modern Egypt. A lot of posters repeatedly state that Egyptians were infiltrated by Greeks, Romans, Persian etc. We got the Ottoman Turks out of the way.
So …are there any studies isolating “Romans” and “Greeks” IN Egypt. Notabley along the male lines. Since female hg-H is resolved.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/egyptians-are-not-arabs-they-are-egyptians/
quote:The La Braña 1 mtDNA haplotype was an U5b2c1
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:xyyman's latest theory is that while modern European females may have come from the Yamanya steppe culture (by the way not located in Central Asia but located in the European side of Russia) he thinks modern European males are descendants of North Africans, that caucasians originate in North Africa
Originally posted by xyyman:
A good example of "doublespeak" is that new paper by Haak on the Steppe IndoEuropean language. On the surface it looks like he is saying the Indo-European people came from the Steppes. But buried within the Supplementals he made it clear that modern European males did NOT descend from the Steppe Yamanya!! Classic doublespeak. Now, did he lie in the paper? Definitely not. But he lead us on, and the Euronuts dream was fulfilled if they are stupid enough only to read the Abstract and not the Supplementals.
I know these people. I know their MO.
I work on the scientific field. I know the internal conflict they are battling. One of the biggest SIN and shameful acts is falsifying data. Their "work around " is skewing the sampling. Ie deliberately leaving out sample groups although it makes absolute sense to include the said group.
From another recent article:
^^^ As we can see Haplogroup U domiates the Pre-Neolithic at 74%
And in another article the breakdown of Haplogroup U>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/
Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
quote:--Carles Lalueza-Fox et al.
This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. Using Approximate Bayesian Computation, a model of genetic continuity from Mesolithic to Neolithic populations is poorly supported. Furthermore, analyses of 1.34% and 0.53% of their nuclear genomes, containing about 50,000 and 20,000 ancestry informative SNPs, respectively, show that these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.
[...]
Indicate that La Bran ̃ a specimens (Figure 1) belong to the U5b haplotype (16192T-16270T).
Figure 2 - Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654,below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome. The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n5=112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n5=113).
This pattern confirms that the La Brana 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.
quote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm
Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote:--Frigi et al., 2010
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311. We have collected sequences from the literature that fall into this cluster. From these sequences we have built a median-joining network by specifying the transversion at np 16114 and the deletion at np 16166 (Rando et al. 1998). The populations are scattered over the network; six nodes are shared between sub-Saharan and northwest African populations. The structure of the network can roughly be described as a double star with one of the centers being the ancestral haplotype. These nodes are separated at np 16293 (transition), testifying to an expansion event that involved both central sequence types. The age of this expansion is calculated as 16,000 years.
[...]
There were eight different haplotypes, and all were unique. Most of these haplotypes are phylogenetically divergent, indicating unrelated introduction to Tunisian populations from western or eastern sub-Saharan populations. Indeed, taking into account the Tunisian sequences belonging to haplogroup L2a from Sejnane, Zriba, Kesra, Matmata, Sned, and Chenini-Douiret, we obtain a divergence age of about 28,000 ± 8,900 years, which is the same age calculated for this haplogroup including all the described sequences. However, we noticed two pairs of related haplotypes in the Kesra population, where we detected a local evolution of the L2a cluster, suggesting that this haplogroup could have been introduced earlier in Kesra.
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). However, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies reflect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
quote:http://digital.csic.es/handle/10261/93059
The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia
Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.
The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.
quote:LOL @ the euronut straw man arguments. As soon as it became appearent that the lineage arose from inner Africa, sub Sahara, this hideous liar retreated and started to call it spam. Well, ... your typical racist euronut behavior got locked into my trap!
Originally posted by the lioness,:
people ignore Troll Patrol, he's gotten emotional and he's in full spam mode posting random charts and quotes which don't answer xyyman's question>>
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
where is your scientific evidence modern Egytptians are heavily admixed with Europeans ?
quote:
This is more focussed on the Egyptians around Luxor, where old upper Egypt was located. A recent DNA study by Cruciani that focused on the Y chromosome E-M78 revealed that it was ‘born’ in North East Africa , not East Africa as previously thought. This means, that an Egyptian with an m78 Y chromosome has had a male line ancestry reaching back to the Pleistocene inhabitants of Egypt; as far back as the Halfan culture about 24,000 years ago.
quote:--Eyoab I Gebremeskel1,2 and Muntaser E Ibrahim1
Archeological and paleontological evidences point to East Africa as the likely area of early evolution of modern humans. Genetic studies also indicate that populations from the region often contain, but not exclusively, representatives of the more basal clades of mitochondrial and Y-chromosome phylogenies. Most Y-chromosome haplogroup diversity in Africa, however, is present within macrohaplogroup E that seem to have appeared 21 000–32 000 YBP somewhere between the Red Sea and Lake Chad. The combined analysis of 17 bi-allelic markers in 1214 Y chromosomes together with cultural background of 49 populations displayed in various metrics: network, multidimensional scaling, principal component analysis and neighbor-joining plots, indicate a major contribution of East African populations to the foundation of the macrohaplogroup, suggesting a diversification that predates the appearance of some cultural traits and the subsequent expansion that is more associated with the cultural and linguistic diversity witnessed today. The proto-Afro-Asiatic group carrying the E-P2 mutation may have appeared at this point in time and subsequently gave rise to the different major population groups including current speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralist populations.
[...]
Y-chromosome haplogroup tree
The Y-chromosome haplogroup tree has been constructed manually following YCC 2008 nomenclature20 with some modifications.35 The tree (Supplementary Figure S1) contains the E haplogroups of Eritrean populations from this study and those reported in the literature.22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 Genotyping results for E-V13, E-V12, E-V22 and E-V32 reported for Eritrean samples and elsewhere23, 27 were retracted to E-M78 haplogroup level. All the analyses in this study were done at the same resolution using the following 17 bi-allelic markers: E-M96, E-M33, E-P2, E-M2, E-M58, E-M191, E-M154, E-M329, E-M215, E-M35, E-M78, E-M81, E-M123, E-M34, E-V6, E-V16/E-M281 and E-M75.
[...]
- Median-joining (MJ) network. Network manipulated to fit the geography of the extant populations. MJ network was constructed using E haplogroup frequencies. Group represented by ITAL contains all the Italian samples pooled. Populations’ descriptions are given in Supplementary Table S1.
- NJ tree based on FST values generated from Arlequin 3.11. Population names are as given in Supplementary Table S1. Population life style: circle – agriculturalists; square – pastoralists; triangle – nomads; inverted triangle – nomadic pastoralists; diamond – agro-pastoralists. The populations are colored according to their language family: red – Afro-asiatic; blue – Nilo-Saharan; green – Niger-Kordofanian; yellow – Khoisan; black – Italic and Basque.
[...]
Interestingly, this ancestral cluster includes populations like Fulani who has previously shown to display Eastern African ancestry, common history with the Hausa who are the furthest Afro-Asiatic speakers to the west in the Sahel, with a large effective size and complex genetic background.23 The Fulani who currently speak a language classified as Niger-Kordofanian may have lost their original tongue to as sociated sedentary group similar to other cattle herders in Africa a common tendency among pastoralists. Clearly cultural trends exemplified by populations, like Hausa or Massalit, the latter who have neither strong tradition in agriculture nor animal husbandry, were established subsequent to the initial differentiation of haplogroup E. For example, the early clusters within the network also include Nilo-Saharan speakers like Kunama of Eritrea and Nilotic of Sudan who are ardent nomadic pastoralists but speak a language of non-Afro-Asiatic background the predominant linguistic family within the macrohaplogroup.
[...]
The Sahel, which extends between the Atlantic coast of Africa and the Red Sea plateau, represents one of the least sampled areas and populations in the domain of human genetics. The position of Eritrea adjacent to the Red Sea coast provides opportunities for insights regarding human migrations within and beyond the African landscape.
[...]
The subclades of the network some of which are associated with the practice of pastoralism are most likely to have taken place in the Sahara, among an early population that spoke ancestral language common to both Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic speakers, although it is yet to be determined whether pastoralism was an original culture to Nilo-Saharan speakers, a cultural acquisition or vice versa; and an interesting notion to entertain in the light of the proposition that pastoralism may be quite an antiquated event in human history.17 Pushing the dates of the event associated with the origin and spread of pastoralism to a proposed 12 000–22 000 YBP, as suggested by the network dating, will solve the matter spontaneously as the language differences would not have appeared by then and an original pastoralist ancestral group with a common culture and language50 is a plausible scenario to entertain. Such dates will accommodate both the Semitic/pastoralism-associated expansion and the introduction of Bos taurus to Europe from North East Africa or Middle East.55 The network result put North African populations like the Saharawi, Morocco Berbers and Arabs in a separate cluster. Given the proposed origin of Maghreb ancestors56, 57, 58, 59 in North Africa, our network dating suggested a divergence of North Western African populations from Eastern African as early as 32 000 YBP, which is close to the estimated dates to the origin of E-P2 macrohaplogroup.30, 60 It can be further inferred that the high frequency of E-M81 in North Africa and its association to the Berber-speaking populations25, 30, 32, 60, 61 may have occurred after the splitting of that early group, leading to local differentiation and flow of some markers as far as Southern Europe.30, 60, 62
quote:--Hisham Y. Hassan, Peter A. Underhill, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza, and Muntaser E. Ibrahim
E-M78 subclades
The distribution of E-M78 subclades among Sudanese is shown in Table 2. Only two chromosomes fell under the paragroup E-M78*. E-V65 and E-V13 were completely absent in the samples analyzed, whereas the other subclades were relatively common. E-V12* accounts for 19.3% and is widely distributed among Su- danese. E-V32 (51.8%) is by far the most common sub-clades among Sudanese. It has the highest frequency among populations of western Sudan and Beja. E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups.
[...]
The Fulani, who possess the lowest population size in this study, have an interesting genetic structure, effectively consisting of two haplogroups or founding lineages. One of the lineages is R-M173 (53.8%), and its sheer frequency suggests either a recent migration of this group to Africa and/or a restricted gene flow due to linguistic or cultural barriers. The high frequency of sub-clade E-V22, which is believed to be northeast African (Cruciani et al., 2007) and haplogroup R-M173, suggests an amalgamation of two populations/cultures that took place sometime in the past in eastern or central Africa. This is also evident from the frequency of the ‘‘T’’ allele of the lactase persistence gene that is uniquely present in considerable frequencies among the Fulani (Mulcare et al., 2004). Interestingly, Fulani language is classified in the Niger-Congo family of languages, which is more prevalent in West Africa and among Bantu speakers, yet their Y-chromosomes show very little evidence of West African genetic affiliation.
It seems, however, that the effective size of the pastorlists and nomadic pastoralists is generally much smaller than groups of sedentary agriculturalists life style. This is intriguing in the sense that one would expect nomadic tribes to be more able to admix, spread, and receive genes than their sedentary counterparts.
quote:^ Consinged! Btw, you've got mail.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Europeans are depigmented Africans. Forget what you have READ over the last 200years people
====
$35!! Would like to get my hands on it...
The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia!!!!!
Quote:
The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian ORIGIN for the FIRST colonists have been summarized.
The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.
quote:Again, Northeast Africa ("Egypt") was just one hub for out migratting populations. Egypt as a state or civilization didn't exists. But the gene-pool asrose at the sub Sahara. As was shown already a few times before. Ignorant nitwit.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:^So you are retracting this?
Originally posted by xyyman:
The end game is to confirm Greek presence in Egypt.
Central Asians
I 2nd guess anything written by Europeans especially in "their" history books. Science don't lie....it can be twisted or misread.
Now you are saying Europeans are 75% African and only 25% Central Asian
(also keep in mind the Yamna culture is not Central Asia, not in the various countries ending in "stan" but is in the European side of Russia)
So if Europeans are 75% African then they are potentially highly related to the ancient Egyptians, this is what you are leading up to
quote:you say Europeans are 75% African
Originally posted by xyyman:
Europeans are depigmented Africans. Forget what you have READ over the last 200 years people
quote:A better phrase would be how do they relate to other Africans?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:you say Europeans are 75% African
Originally posted by xyyman:
Europeans are depigmented Africans. Forget what you have READ over the last 200 years people
and modern Egyptians are 82% African
to about what percent are modern Egyptians descendants of ancient Egyptians ?
quote:So if their J2 is 18%
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] @Lioness. Well, to tell the truth, if we go by the DNA TRIBES database comparison with the Amarnas modern Egyptians are NOT closely related to the AEians.
Analysis of the modern Egyptians show they are the most admixed of ALL Africans. The only foreign admixture coming through J2 from Turks.
quote:As Doug explained before. Depending on where samples are being taken you will have a different outcome. And I agree with Doug wholeheartedly on that. What Obama has to do with this is beyond me.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:So if their J2 is 18%
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] @Lioness. Well, to tell the truth, if we go by the DNA TRIBES database comparison with the Amarnas modern Egyptians are NOT closely related to the AEians.
Analysis of the modern Egyptians show they are the most admixed of ALL Africans. The only foreign admixture coming through J2 from Turks.
That means the rest of of their DNA, 82% is African
That means modern Egyptians are 32% more African than Barack Obama who is about 50% African (50 + 32 = 82%)
The Amarna period lasted about 20 years. Due to the policies of Akhenaten the kings of the Amarna period were striken from the Egyptian record.
But assuming that dynastic Egyptians prior to the Amarna had DNA similar to the Amarna
and keeping in mind you say that modern Egyptians are largely African (82%) you also say that according to DNA Tribes modern Egyptians are not closely related to the Amarna
that means that if the Amarna represent dynastic Egyptians generally and modern Egyptians are largely African (82%) yet not similar to them then modern Egyptians are largely Africans foreign to Egypt
So where did they come from? What other part of Africa?
And where in the history of Egypt after the Amarna is there a mass migration of foreign Africans into Egypt?
