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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African
 

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Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 





 

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Posted by Fencer (Member # 22259) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

Right, if you mixed a Chinese person with a Nigerian it would result in a curly haired " mongrel " such as this>


 

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Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

Right, if you mixed a Chinese person with a Nigerian it would result in a curly haired " mongrel " such as this>

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindovermatter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

Right, if you mixed a Chinese person with a Nigerian it would result in a curly haired " mongrel " such as this>

---

Lioness, you idiot he means the albino's from Central Asia.

Also Questioner, the Ancient Greeks were not white because in the U.S census and in the U.S, modern greeks were not considered White and were attacked by racists.

Considering the fact that the ancestors of the Ancient Greeks were black/brown people from Crete called the Minoans, and murals/paintings show numerous black/brown greeks and that they distinguished themselves from White Eurasians from Central Asia, they were most likely not White.

See people like Herodotus and Pliny the Elder to confirm this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Here's my question, It's yes or no, only >

Are the today's Americans white?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Here's my question, It's yes or no, only >

Are today's Americans white?

Since we also live today, this should be easy

Then we can use this answer to prepare us to deal with the ancient Greeks

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

Right, if you mixed a Chinese person with a Nigerian it would result in a curly haired " mongrel " such as this>

---

Modern Greeks are not descendents of the famous Greeks of the antique.

They are a mixture of Slavs, Byzantines and Albanians, settled in by the Ottoman Turkish Empire.... and then the British Empire.

Read between lines....
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Thanks lion:

They purposely avoid true history because that would blow their nonsense out of the water. Btw - add Turks to their mix. Turks always settled in territory that they conquered.
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness
why did you show a picture of a Modern Greek?
i clearly said Ancient Greek
and Chinese are not the only Asians in Asia

im starting to think that you post without thinking

many ancient Greeks also have dark complexion in addition to curly hair

for example in ancient Greek literature it is said that the true skin color of bravery is in between black and white
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness
Do you even know the name of the guy in the picture you posted or about his family history?

just because he lives in Greece doesn't mean his family roots is from Greece
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
why did you show a picture of a Modern Greek?
i clearly said Ancient Greek
and Chinese are not the only Asians in Asia

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

many ancient Greeks also have dark complexion in addition to curly hair

---

(last guy Italian)

^ Did the ancient Greeks look like this

Or this? >


Let's use actual examples rather than terms like "white" and "black", stereotype race terms which have no agreed upon meaning

How about asking a question that is a legitimate observation of skin color, for instance "brown" or "light beige"

So in this post we have 5 brown skinned people. Could many of the Greeks have had brown skin? Yes

/close thread
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
yet you continue to show Modern people
with the last two being a Italian and African american

this is irrelevant to my post

i don't want conjectures or theories please post something about ancient greece
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
if there were cameras in antiquity i wouldn't be asking this question
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness "So then specify which Asians are a better candidate for mixing with Africans to produce Ancient Greeks."

perhaps the ones closest to them (Turks, Syrians, Palestinians etc)
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
why did you show a picture of a Modern Greek?
i clearly said Ancient Greek
and Chinese are not the only Asians in Asia

---

So then specify which Asians are a better candidate for mixing with Africans to produce Ancient Greeks.

(note 4: because they didn't have cameras in ancient Greece)

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

many ancient Greeks also have dark complexion in addition to curly hair

---

(last guy Italian)

^ Did the ancient Greeks look like this

Or this? >


Let's use actual examples rather than terms like "white" and "black", stereotype race terms which have no agreed upon meaning

How about asking a question that is a legitimate observation of skin color, for instance "brown" or "light beige"

So in this post we have 5 brown skinned people. Could many of the Greeks have had brown skin? Yes

/close thread

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

Right, if you mixed a Chinese person with a Nigerian it would result in a curly haired " mongrel " such as this>

---

Yes, we know, you people are pure! sarc/



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

---

Why are you showing Sicilians with African admixture, then try to close the thread, supposedly? How come you have no problem with multiple supposed back migrations to Africa (of whcih in most cases there is no evidence lol smh), yet make such a great deal out of recent African migration into Southern Europe. Why is it so important to you to show Europeans as "pure" and more diverse as Africans? I like to know what's up with that.

This question has been addressed many times by several people already, however it has been responded at by you. All you do is keep on rambling. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


curly hair is a result of mixing with black Africans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
that the ancient Greeks are not white

something tangible or a quote from an ancient Greek to support your claim

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So if the ancient Greeks were of this complexion are they or are they not white?
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
kdolo
who is that on the coin?
Delphus?

Yes. This crowd is oblivious, wilfully
ignorant or pplagiarizing works as
old as Rogers' 1952 Sex & Race
pp. 81 & 292 with 16 Greek coins
3 of Helios
6 of Delphos
3 of Athena
4 random broad featured nappy hair individuals.

I leave it to some astute ES researcher
to post or link the pages via GoogleBooks.
The device I'm using won't let me.

[ 29. November 2015, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness
can you prove that the Ancient Greeks were that complexion?
and can you prove that the ancient greeks had straight hair like the man you posted?
 

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Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
On the coin ?

A Negro
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
they wouldn't put a random negro on a coin

who is this negro?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
that the ancient Greeks are not white

something tangible or a quote from an ancient Greek to support your claim

---

So if the ancient Greeks were of this complexion are they or are they not white?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
in my opinion i say no

---

quote:

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Originally posted by kdolo:
What the hell is this.....20 questions ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
this only proves that the minoans are maternally European

if you look at cretan art work the women are mostly seen as white or light skin while the men are dark skin

http://micro-robotics.com/AHCV/unit/2/Aegean/data/images/img30.jpg

https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/919/flashcards/675919/jpg/bull_mural1323555284572.jpg
http://www.greeceathensaegeaninfo.com/a-greece-travel/a-h-historic-destinations/crete-knossos/minoan-knossos.jpg

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
mindovermatter
that is my point

but what evidence do you have that it was painted over?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
kdolo
who is that on the coin?
Delphus?

---

Yes. This crowd is oblivious, wilfully
ignorant or pplagiarizing works as
old as Rogers' 1952 Sex & Race
pp. 81 & 292 with 16 Greek coins
3 of Helios
6 of Delphos
2 of Athena
5 random broad featured nappy hair individuals.

I leave it to some astute ES researcher
to post or link the pages via GoogleBooks.
The device I'm using won't let me.


BTW sorry to mar your original post,
ain't up to speed yet on this device
OK I effed up so what's new...
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015124a.html

The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily.

Eur. J. Hum. Genet.
Eur J Hum Genet 2015 Jul 15. Epub 2015 Jul 15.
Sergio Tofanelli,

Greek colonisation of South Italy and Sicily (Magna Graecia) was a defining event in European cultural history, although the demographic processes and genetic impacts involved have not been systematically investigated. Here, we combine high-resolution surveys of the variability at the uni-parentally inherited Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA in selected samples of putative source and recipient populations with forward-in-time simulations of alternative demographic models to detect signatures of that impact. Using a subset of haplotypes chosen to represent historical sources, we recover a clear signature of Greek ancestry in East Sicily compatible with the settlement from Euboea during the Archaic Period (eighth to fifth century BCE). We inferred moderate sex-bias in the numbers of individuals involved in the colonisation: a few thousand breeding men and a few hundred breeding women were the estimated number of migrants. Last, we demonstrate that studies aimed at quantifying Hellenic genetic flow by the proportion of specific lineages surviving in present-day populations may be misleading.European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 15 July 2015; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2015.124.


___________________________________________


Archaeologists have long known of Greek colonization of Magna Graecia, the name given to the coastal areas of Southern Italy and Sicily, thanks to artifacts and historical records. Somewhere around the 8th century BC, Greeks came in droves to settle Magna Graecia, bringing with them traces of a civilization that heavily influenced ancient Rome. While the cultural contribution of these Greeks to southern Italy is clear, researchers have argued for years about their biological contribution. New DNA research, though, purports to have solved the mystery: an influx of a few thousand men and a few hundred women in the Archaic period may have been enough to effect Hellenic colonization of Magna Graecia.

Writing in the European Journal of Human Genetics this week, an international team of scientists laid out their case for the origins of people in Magna Graecia. The hypotheses about colonization in this area are drawn from archaeological, historical, and demographic data, but they hardly agree. Lead author Sergio Tofanelli and colleagues explain that there are “scenarios ranging from a colonization process based on small groups of males moderately admixing with autochthonous [indigenous] groups… to substantial migrations from Greece and a Hellenic origin for a significant part of the pre-Roman Italian population.”


Ancient Greek colonies in Magna Graecia and their dialect groupings. (Image in the public domain, via wikimedia commons.)

Previous DNA analyses have been interpreted to bolster various hypotheses as well. Tofanelli and colleagues find fault with these studies of Greek colonization primarily because those studies used specific lineages or haplotypes as markers of colonization, and these contemporary genomes may not accurately reflect the genes that were present in ancient populations. To counter this, Tofanelli and colleagues used both Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA analysis and created demographic models to simulate genetic change over time. In particular, they looked for robust gene signatures for Greek contributions to Italy and Sicily, they tested alternative models, and they looked at the relative contributions of males versus females to find out more about the colonizing population.

Over 800 people native to the areas of Euboea and Corinth, where archaeologists and historians think the first wave of colonizers came from, along with people whose families were native to Sicily and southern Italy, had their DNA sequenced. When the researchers analyzed the Y chromosome data and modeled the typical mutation rate over the centuries, they “recovered a signature of the Greek Contribution to Sicily during the Archaic Period” or between the 8th and 5th centuries BC. More specifically, this wave of colonists likely arrived in East Sicily first and then dispersed into West Sicily and South Italy. “Despite the multiple alternative explanations for historical gene flow,” they write, “it is relevant to stress here that a signature specifically related to the Euboea island in East Sicily was consistently found at different levels of analysis, in line with the historical and archaeological evidence, attesting to an extended and numerically important Greek presence in this region.”

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AGRIGENTO, ITALY – OCTOBER 20: A general view of Temple of Hera in the Valle dei Templi Park of Agrigento on October 20, 2013. Agrigento (Akragas in Greek) was a rich Greek colony, founded in western Sicily in the 6th century BC. (Photo by Tullio M. Puglia/Getty Images)

Historians and demographers have also debated just how large the migration population was when they arrived in Magna Graecia. Walter Scheidel, professor of classics and ancient history at Stanford University, has estimated from a demographic perspective that the founding population was likely around 20,000 to 60,000 males. But if Tofanelli and colleagues’ supposition that East Sicily was colonized first is correct, this “points to the lower end of the size spectrum proposed by historical demographers, with values in the order of thousands [of] breeding men and [a] few hundred breeding women,” they write.

“A settler population of 5,000 males, mating with local women, would have had to grow by more than 1% per year for several centuries,” Scheidel says in response to Tofanelli and colleagues’ conclusions. This is substantial and out of character for the ancient world, particularly considering the ancient Greeks were not polygamous. “Maybe growth rates were higher than we think,” Scheidel suggests, “but their settler numbers seem very small. This would translate to just a few dozen ships full of Greeks, over a considerable period of time, which is problematic. It’s hard for me to see how a few thousand settlers could have produced the large Greek population we see in Sicily a few centuries later.”


5th century BC Greek coins from Tarentum, an ancient Greek colony in the Magna Graecia area of Italy. (Image from the Classical Numismatic Group, used under a CC-BY-SA 3.0 unported license via wikimedia commons.)

The lopsided population that Tofanelli and colleagues reconstruct could also mean that “the migration and settlement process was driven by males,” which is interesting because “this is one of the few cases of sex-biased gene flow skewed towards an increased male instead of female contribution,” the authors conclude. However, the different male and female contributions to the DNA of East Sicilians could instead be related to patrilocality, or the cultural phenomenon where men stay near their birthplace while women leave the group to find spouses elsewhere.

This study is the first to use a full set of haplotypes and therefore provides better coverage of possible DNA links than previous studies. The authors caution, though, against accepting this study at face value, because more DNA studies would be needed to develop stronger conclusions about ancestry. As a study of modern DNA, this paper provides a strong research design, but testing ancient DNA would be even more helpful. Whether or not skeletal collections exist and whether or not those Archaic-period bones would produce collagen of high enough quality to be DNA sequenced, however, are questions that still need to be answered. Tofanelli and colleagues have credibly shown that modern DNA evidence backs up historical and archaeological information about the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia. Ancient DNA work may settle the question once and for all.

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Kristina Killgrove is a bioarchaeologist at the University of West Florida. For more osteology news, follow her on Twitter (@DrKillgrove) or like her Facebook page Powered by Osteons.

1Comment on this story
Print Report Corrections Reprints & Permissions
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
hair is not irrelevant
especially if we are dealing with race

---

If you said the above man is not white then hair is irrelevant to a person's whiteness


.

young Nicole Kidman

She's mixed with black?

.




 

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Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
 
Mike,

I've already answered that question, yes I am White why would I lie about that?
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness
Nicole Kidman could be mixed with black
far back in her family history

i say yes
Britian had quite a few of black slaves brought their via the slave trade

her and all of the other pictures you posted look like typical octoroons

ian Stewart as a child, with his father

COURTESY OF IAN STEWART
http://www.theroot.com/content/dam/theroot/culture/ian_aschild_with_dad.jpg.CROP.rtstoryvar-large.jpg
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
Nicole Kidman could be mixed with black
far back in her family history

i say yes
Britian had quite a few of black slaves brought their via the slave trade

her and all of the other pictures you posted look like typical octoroons

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi 27 February 2010:
A similar article was written up some yrs back

First Genetic Evidence Of Long-Lived African Presence Within Britain

The researchers, led by Professor Mark Jobling, of the Department of Genetics at the University of Leicester, first spotted the rare Y chromosome type, known as hgA1, in one individual, Mr. X. This happened whilst PhD student Ms. Turi King was sampling a larger group in a study to explore the association between surnames and the Y chromosome, both inherited from father to son. Mr. X, a white Caucasian living in Leicester, was unaware of having any African ancestors.

"As you can imagine, we were pretty amazed to find this result in someone unaware of having any African roots," explains Professor Jobling, a Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow. "The Y chromosome is passed down from father to son, so this suggested that Mr. X must have had African ancestry somewhere down the line. Our study suggests that this must have happened some time ago."

Although most of Britain's one million people who define themselves as "Black or Black British" owe their origins to immigration from the Caribbean and Africa from the mid-twentieth century onwards, in reality, there has been a long history of contact with Africa. Africans were first recorded in the north 1800 years ago, as Roman soldiers defending Hadrian's Wall.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070124072328.htm


Alcoholic what the hell are protesting about you didn't bother clicking the link now did you..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/north_yorkshire/8538888.stm

quote:

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Are you man enough to tell your colleague that that is an inaccurate statement and that he needs to retract or revise it? I bet you the answer to that is NO. Why? Because people like you are not about honest scholarship. People like you i.e. Afrocentrists, have a racial-political agenda. This is not about academics for you. This is about a struggle, a cause and, by any means necessary, to see it all the way through until you have gained the victory. Fvck you! I dont have respect for dishonest people.

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Some more stuff from the rich lady's grave

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
neither can you disprove it
show me one curly haired white people who do not belong to haplogroup E

it is no accident that vast majority of curly haired whites live close to Africa
(Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc)

notice all the blacks in lisbon early in its history
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wyH7LQByMk0/UPF_65kXIAI/AAAAAAAADmk/2QFMVL3dPzI/s1600/Netherlandish.jpg

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Nicole Kidman does not belong to Haplogroup E
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
did she take a dna test?
it also said she has Jewish ancestry
Jews in Europe belong to haplogroup E

and i said people not person

haplogroups can get buried in a individual
 

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Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
'i say yes
Britian had quite a few of black slaves brought their via the slave trade'

Are you a moron ??
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
did she take a dna test?
it also said she has Jewish ancestry
Jews in Europe belong to haplogroup E

and i said people not person

haplogroups can get buried in a individual

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

100,000s of Black people have migrated to Spain and England from Africa and the Caribbean and has not changed the genetic profile of whites in Great Britain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


however haplogroups can get buried
for example
Alexandre Dumas haplogroup E would not show up on a DNA test

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the questioner:

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
[QB] the lioness
im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E

---

If you make a claim with no science rreference then the burden of proof is on you.

If you say the moon is made of swiss cheese.
You have to prove it.

You can't say to me "prove that the moon isn't made of swiss cheese"
and if I don't then claim you have proved that it is made of swiss cheese.
You have to provide evidence for your claims, not ask other people to do the proving for you, by saying "prove what I'm saying is not true"
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness
again with your analogies

can we all agree that alot of Jews have curly hair?
along with Nicole Kidman who has jewish ancestry

alot of jews belong to haplogroup E https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewishe3bproject/about/background
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


The Ivory Bangle Lady was between 18 and 23 years old when she died, and stood approximately five feet tall. There is no evidence of a cause of death; but she is believed on the basis of skeletal comparisons to have been from North Africa.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

---

Why are you showing Sicilians with African admixture, then try to close the thread, supposedly? How come you have no problem with multiple supposed back migrations to Africa (of whcih in most cases there is no evidence lol smh), yet make such a great deal out of recent African migration into Southern Europe. Why is it so important to you to show Europeans as "pure" and more diverse as Africans? I like to know what's up with that.

This question has been addressed many times by several people already, however it has been responded at by you. All you do is keep on rambling.

---

I don't give a damn about purity.

the questioner didn't mention Southern Europeans or African migration there, that's all you.

His proposal is that the ancient Greeks were not European

and he uses this old school racist terminology " a mongrel race" and doesn't even realize it [/QB]

---

From where did the ancient Greeks come?

Every person in Africa with some looser hair is mixed with eurasians (caucasoids) who mysteriously traveled back to African dozens of times.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
hair is not irrelevant
especially if we are dealing with race

---

If you said the above man is not white then hair is irrelevant to a person's whiteness


.

young Nicole Kidman

She's mixed with black?

.

---

Yawn, again these pictures. What is it, "purity"?

Richard Simmons born New Orleans, Louisiana.

Nicole Kidman ... ancestry.

And a few other unknown individuals. Who you have resoposted repetetively. smh

Grandure delusions.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


The Ivory Bangle Lady was between 18 and 23 years old when she died, and stood approximately five feet tall. There is no evidence of a cause of death; but she is believed on the basis of skeletal comparisons to have been from North Africa.

---

Why are you afraid to show the source?

http://archaeology.about.com/od/iterms/qt/Ivory-Bangle-Lady.htm









http://museums.depaul.edu/wp-content/uploads//sinclair-bell.jpg
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
did she take a dna test?
it also said she has Jewish ancestry
Jews in Europe belong to haplogroup E

and i said people not person

haplogroups can get buried in a individual

---

Hitler belonged to haplogroup E , his hair was straight

---

I.Q. 42%.


http://forward.com/culture/140721/genes-tell-tale-of-jewish-ties-to-africa/
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
again with your analogies

can we all agree that alot of Jews have curly hair?
along with Nicole Kidman who has jewish ancestry

alot of jews belong to haplogroup E https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewishe3bproject/about/background

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
In case you haven't noticed, the lioness is a white supremacist. At all cost white people are pure and most diverse. It has been the same routine frm the beginning. Every African with loose hair and not stereotypical is supposed a mix with eurasians, no proof needs to be given. Every europan/ eurasian/ caucasoid looking different from the norm is white diversity. This is by any means. lol

---

.
.

Like most claims of the Albinos, it's akin to "slight of hand" using truths of Blacks.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E

i rest my case about curly hair

now back to ancient greeks

---

The DNA of the Khosians is predominantly haplogroup A, haplgropup B and maternally L0d.


These haplogroups are older than E

Any Hg E you find in Khosians is likely due to admixture with bantus

They have the tightest curled hair on the planet

As Africans left Africa they evolved into different types.
So in the transistion you might have looser curled types, such as the Jews as you mentioned, some with their Jew-fros

So this is not regarded as "mixed" as if they have two different founder parents at some point of different "races"

The people of Oceania, the Andaman Islanders near India, Negritos in the Philipines are not E carriers but many of them look African and many of them have afro type hair or some near variant of it, curls
They are not African. They have been out of Africa for 60,000 years and can be distingushed from Africans by genetics.

You shouldn't make an assumption like any European who has curly hair has ancestors who were haplogoup E carriers because you have no evidence to support that,

there are specific genes that cause curly hair and little is known about them

The only thing reaosnable to ask is

"Do any European males have curly hair but do not belong to Haplogroup E ?"

Instead of assuming something before investigating.

There are other forums where people could answer that quickly but I don't have the resources to, so at this point I can't answer that

These other forums are not Egyptsearch but I will post this question as a new thread in Egyptology and see if anybody can answer
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them?
or
are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African

---

If typical European/American racial social constructs are used,
the Greeks are mixed race people. Many have a double standard in this
area. If some Eurasian DNA appears somewhere in Africa, they pronounce the Africans
to be "mixed." But if African DNA shows up in Europe they are quick to
change the subject, or downplay the very same application of
their "Mixed race" model. This double standard is alive and well and
does not seem to be vanishing anytime soon.

Here is a repost from an old ES thread: Again note- NO ONE
is saying Greeks are not European, or that things like HLA are the ONLY
line of evidence connecting Africa to Greece. It is only
ONE line- there are several others- about 6-7 in fact. Each has strengths
and weaknesses. Again the issue is Greek connections with Africa
not if "the Greeks be black." That is a strawman some put
out as a diversionary tactic to downplay any connections between
Greeks and Africans. Get people "debating" the strawman and
much relevant info can be conveniently dismissed or ignored. Its a
deliberate tactic. Also note below diversionary tactics trying
to tie in any discussion with Jew-Palestinian debates. These are irrelevant. There are several other related threads on ES.
Check them out for more details. Below is only one.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=002474

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM OLD ES THREAD:

Modern Greeks would not have the IDENTICAL mix as ancient Greeks. Other studies do
not show identical results to HLA gene data. There are differences, but
the main idea is to show that there is some relatedness between Greeks
and Africans. WHy then aren't many running around talking about Greeks being "mixed"?
This double standard is a central point.
-------------------------------------------------


1-- Distribution of African Haplogroup E in Europe appears in several
Greek or southern European populations




2-- Certain Greek samples using HLA gene data cluster with Africans.
This pattern does not mean all Greeks are identical to Africans or "come from Africa."
The data is in:
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127





Villena attracted controversy because various data on Greeks-Macedonians-
Africans seemed to genetically link Jews and Palestinians more closely than seemed
politic. This info was withdrawn for political reasons, and
offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups.
Some use this to claim that the Greek data above was
"withdrawn." False. It is alive and well and
appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study:
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127
Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing
to do with it, and are a separate dispute.

Bear in mind that while HLA has its limitations it is used by other
scholars in DNA affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the
Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies)
for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic
groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited?
Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the
only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of
evidence linking the peoples.


3-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are
related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations. Note we
are talking Greeks and Africans.




4-- It is true that the data being used is highly
variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese
clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched
as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain
arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data
in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese
and south African blacks grouping together in
relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.




5-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African
traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits)
in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted
but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence
of "negroid" traits from early times:
quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2
was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as
a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly
complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis."
There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be
described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic
diagnosis of Negro crania... "
-- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.

"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F)
average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a
little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid
development of the incisor region.."
-- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971

"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other,
very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a
nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the
'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin."
--The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium:
proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997

"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have
been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today,
short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow
complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean
was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types,
some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed,
almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..."
-- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)


------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia-------
QUOTE:
"The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals.
It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's
"Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia."
-- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.




6-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits
are also found among the Greeks and various Africans
and some skeletal/cranial studies find African
elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example)
QUOTE:

"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."

-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564





7-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, Africans again having a wide range of features

QUOTES
"THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...
It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed."
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".


"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138

L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."

"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '

"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

-------------------------------

8.. ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS


QUOTE:
"Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the
YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or
(III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East
and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup
found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes).
SPecifically, Europeans contain the E3b subhaplogroup, which
was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and
currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa..
It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may
recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."

--T. Frudakis. 2006. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA
Well according to genetic analyses the Greeks are close to 1/4th black carrying 23% African paternal lineages.

---------------


9-- African DNA in Sardinia- sardinia dna


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Critique of critique of HLA studies. The "critique" made by some is
to proffer shaky strawmen made by alleged "Afrocentrists" that can then be
"refuted." BUt no credible observer claims that all Greeks are Africans.
We all know that Greeks are primarily European, just as Ethiopians are primarily African.
The only point at issue is that there is clearly documented gene mix and cultural flow
between Greece and Africa from ancient times. HLA studies are ONE link in
that documented chain of evidence. And if "mixed race" models are to be deployed
to describe African diversity, then their use is likewise justified in
describing EUropean diversity as "mixed race." Eurocentrics no longer get'
to play the standard hypocritical ONE-WAY labeling game.


VARIOUS OBJECTIONS

The minimization ploy- Cystic fibrosis
The cystic fibrosis finding is admitted but minimized with dubious
sleight of hand. Objectors and their supporters hold that Dörk et al. did find an
African-type of cystic fibrosis mutation in Greeks, however this
mutation was extremely rare; it was detected only in three Greek families.
WHat they conveniently leave out is that the Greek families were part of a
batch of 17 samples under detailed analysis. 3 out of 17 is approx 18%,
but they attempt to make it appear as if it is only 3 families out of all
of Greece where the cystic fibrosis mutation occurs. See Dork ref.
Dörk T, El-Harith EH, Stuhrmann M, et al. (August 1998).
"Evidence for a common ethnic origin of cystic fibrosis mutation 3120+1G-->A
in diverse populations". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63


The mysteriously missing African samples to "refute"
Objectors and their servitors then tout a 2000 study by Richards that
found "very little" African gene flow in Greece, but in
fact, Richards's study specifically EXCLUDED African samples.
Objectors and their supporters further proffer Maaspina 2000 as another
example, saying that the "only African" DNA trace in a Greek
sample was hg "A" at less than 1%. The only thing that they
conveniently forget to tell the reader is that the African
samples were mostly Arabized types from Egypt, not sub-Saharan
Africa, crucially East Africa/Ethiopia where an apples to apples
comparison could be done.


The non-sequitir "comparison"
The Objectors also cite a study by A. Petlichkovski on Macedonians
showing where "sub-Saharans" groups away from
the Macedonians thus allegedly "contradicting" Vilenna.
Again they conveniently leave out that the samples
of Petlichkovski were NOT from the same area of
Africa as Vilenna's Ethiopians, his main group
that clustered with Greeks. The sampling was not
an apples to apples comparison. Interestingly enough,
Petlichkovski's study groups Egyptians with other
African populations.



More "missing" Africans to "refute"
The Objectors continue their sleight of hand by proferring
another study by Weale 2001, but this study concerned Armenians
and had NO African samples. Other claims by the Objectors attempt
to use an obscure Siberian haplotype as some sort of "stand in" for
Africans but indeed the studies proffered for Greek-African comparisons
are notable for the ABSENCE or minor use of African samples.


The nugatory "North African" markers
Semino 2004 is used by assorted objectors to argue a Medit Supreme line,
alleging that the Greeks show little of the "North African marker" J-M267,
essentially setting up a strawman true type to "refute." But in fact Semino's
Greek samples showed significant amounts of E-M78, a haplotype itself originating
in East Africa per Semino. Objectors usually fail to mention this.
J-M267 is important to them however, because the Dork cystic fibrosis
study found a link with Saudi populations which have much J-M267. But what
Objectors and their supporters conveniently leave out is that other studies
of Saudis such as Amero 2008, found almost 14% of the Saudi samples
to have sub-Saharan DNA markers, confirming Dork's view of long-standing
Africa-Arabia gene flow. Hence it is not merely "North African" J-M267
that could cause a link with the Greek and Africans, but long-standing African
markers. The link shows up in people who are African or African influenced
like Saudis or African-Americans.


Curious charts
The Objectors also proffer a critique by JObling of Vilenna's sub-Saharan tracers,
but Jobling did not dispute the presence of such African alleles only
how they were used in creating a chart, since their origin was known
before the study. But such is standard procedure in other DNA studies
run by European race category proponents. Only this time, it showed
the Greek- African links rather than the usual "true type" segregation format.


The "three wise men" critique- claim a part is the whole -to "refute"
Objectors also refer to criticism of Vilenna by "three respected geneticists"
Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch. But the three men
over no detailed rebuttal of Vilenna's results, only "puzzlement" over
how Greeks link with Africans and how Japanese could be in the mix.
They express puzzlement on how: "Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians
and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the
Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans."

But the "three sages" misrepresent Vilenna with a touch of strawmen. Vilenna
is not referring to ALL Greeks but part of them, as seen in samples from
the Aegean and near Athens. The "all Greeks" charge is bogus, just as
the "identical Japanese" is similarly bogus. The three sages conveniently
fail to mention that HLA genes, in association with certain rheumatoid arthritis
MEDICAL conditions, can show similarity across several distant populations,
and thus accounting for why Japanese would share certain arthritis
conditions with South African San. Doesn't mean there was historic gene flow between
them- this would require some archaeological evidence as well- which Greeks
and Africans do have present. The similarity only shows that the gene mutations
involved in the particular rheumatoid arthritis conditions may hit both peoples
in a similar way.
( Rimoin and Emery 2006 Principles and practice of medical genetics).


HLA limitations

While HLA has its limitations it is used by other scholars in DNA
affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the
Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies)
for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic
groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited?
Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the
only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of
evidence linking the peoples.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The above does not mean that there are no weaknesses in using HLA to
study populations, but neither does it mean that HLA cannot be used
as one of SEVERAL lines of confirmatory cross evidence on the issue
of links between Africa and Greece.


THE DOUBLE STANDARD:
Gene frequencies are sometimes touted as "racial" markers-
i.e. high frequencies of certain genes in "Eurasian" areas
enables the population to be labeled as "Eurasian."
But the same method is, curiously, too often, suddenly not applied when
African gene data is involved. Hence high frequencies
of certain genes in Africa do not earn them the "African"
label when there are overlaps into Europe and the
so-called "Middle East". Many who speak expansively
of "mixed races" in Africa suddenly maintain a mysterious
silence when the concept is extended into Europe.
Suddenly numerous sub-divisions, obfuscations and
"qualifications" enter the labeling picture - the
standard modus operandi of Euro-centric hypocrisy
and double standards.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 


^^If European racial constructs are consistently applied ACROSS THE BOARD,
then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids,
one-third African, two-thirds Asian.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E

i rest my case about curly hair

now back to ancient greeks

---

The DNA of the Khosians is predominantly haplogroup A, haplgropup B and maternally L0d.


These haplogroups are older than E

Any Hg E you find in Khosians is likely due to admixture with bantus

They have the tightest curled hair on the planet

As Africans left Africa they evolved into different types.
So in the transistion you might have looser curled types, such as the Jews as you mentioned, some with their Jew-fros

So this is not regarded as "mixed" as if they have two different founder parents at some point of different "races"

The people of Oceania, the Andaman Islanders near India, Negritos in the Philipines are not E carriers but many of them look African and many of them have afro type hair or some near variant of it, curls
They are not African. They have been out of Africa for 60,000 years and can be distingushed from Africans by genetics.

You shouldn't make an assumption like any European who has curly hair has ancestors who were haplogoup E carriers because you have no evidence to support that,

there are specific genes that cause curly hair and little is known about them

The only thing reaosnable to ask is

"Do any European males have curly hair but do not belong to Haplogroup E ?"

Instead of assuming something before investigating.

There are other forums where people could answer that quickly but I don't have the resources to, so at this point I can't answer that

These other forums are not Egyptsearch but I will post this question as a new thread in Egyptology and see if anybody can answer

---

As I said this is a person who will spend an amazing amount of time to push and iterate a Eurocentric agenda.

We know for a fact the Khoisan are oldest people to populate the world. But this racist euronut will dismiss it at any cost. This is typical Eurocentric behavior, you'll find all over the net. The irony is in it that this person hardly understands the complexity of genetics. As soon as we speak of mutations and drifts this person gets upset.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009325;p=1#000004


"The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites)."







"Instead of assuming something before investigating."

This comes off as someone mentally ill. With all those magical unsupported and supposed back migrations to Africa.


Btw, lol @ the below.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


^^If European racial constructs are consistently applied ACROSS THE BOARD,
then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids,
one-third African, two-thirds Asian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


^^If European racial constructs are consistently applied ACROSS THE BOARD,
then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids,
one-third African, two-thirds Asian.

---

So Europeans are 1/3 African

But Asians are not African at all

Just saying, not judging

---

SMH Zarahan this one all yours, guillotine move. DE* YAP.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
stop Trolling, thanks
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
stop Trolling, thanks

---

quote:

---

The regional distribution of an ancient Y-chromosome haplogroup C-M130 (Hg C) in Asia provides an ideal tool of dissecting prehistoric migration events. We identified 465 Hg C individuals out of 4284 males from 140 East and Southeast Asian populations. We genotyped these Hg C individuals using 12 Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 8 commonly used Y-short tandem repeats (Y-STRs), and performed phylogeographic analysis in combination with the published data. The results show that most of the Hg C subhaplogroups have distinct geographical distribution and have undergone long-time isolation, although Hg C individuals are distributed widely across Eurasia. Furthermore, a general south-to-north and east-to-west cline of Y-STR diversity is observed with the highest diversity in Southeast Asia. The phylogeographic distribution pattern of Hg C supports a single coastal 'Out-of-Africa' route by way of the Indian subcontinent, which eventually led to the early settlement of modern humans in mainland Southeast Asia. The northward expansion of Hg C in East Asia started approximately 40 thousand of years ago (KYA) along the coastline of mainland China and reached Siberia approximately 15 KYA and finally made its way to the Americas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
In case you haven't noticed, the lioness is a white supremacist. At all cost white people are pure and most diverse. It has been the same routine frm the beginning. Every African with loose hair and not stereotypical is supposed a mix with eurasians, no proof needs to be given. Every europan/ eurasian/ caucasoid looking different from the norm is white diversity. This is by any means. lol

---

.
.

Like most claims of the Albinos, it's akin to "slight of hand" using truths of Blacks.

---

quote:

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjf0qKdzmrc

"AND WITHIN EACH OF THESE GROUPS THERE IS AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF DIVERSITY,[...] THE DIVERSITY IS INDIGNIOUS TO AFRICAN POPULATIONS":

Tracing Family Trees, And Human History, With Genetics

---

quote:

---

According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect.

---

quote:

---

Khoisan hunter-gatherers have been the largest population throughout most of modern-human demographic history

The Khoisan people from Southern Africa maintained ancient lifestyles as hunter-gatherers or pastoralists up to modern times, though little else is known about their early history. Here we infer early demographic histories of modern humans using whole-genome sequences of five Khoisan individuals and one Bantu speaker. Comparison with a 420 K SNP data set from worldwide individuals demonstrates that two of the Khoisan genomes from the Ju/’hoansi population contain exclusive Khoisan ancestry. Coalescent analysis shows that the Khoisan and their ancestors have been the largest populations since their split with the non-Khoisan population ~100–150 kyr ago. In contrast, the ancestors of the non-Khoisan groups, including Bantu-speakers and non-Africans, experienced population declines after the split and lost more than half of their genetic diversity. Paleoclimate records indicate that the precipitation in southern Africa increased ~80–100 kyr ago while west-central Africa became drier. We hypothesize that these climate differences might be related to the divergent-ancient histories among human populations.

[...]

Yet Khoisan populations have maintained the greatest nuclear-genetic diversity among all human populations3, 4, 5 and the most ancient Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA lineages6, 7, implying relatively larger effective population sizes for ancestral Khoisan populations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
thank you so much for answering my question directly

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E

i rest my case about curly hair

now back to ancient greeks

---

The DNA of the Khosians is predominantly haplogroup A, haplgropup B and maternally L0d.


These haplogroups are older than E

Any Hg E you find in Khosians is likely due to admixture with bantus

They have the tightest curled hair on the planet

As Africans left Africa they evolved into different types.
So in the transistion you might have looser curled types, such as the Jews as you mentioned, some with their Jew-fros

So this is not regarded as "mixed" as if they have two different founder parents at some point of different "races"

The people of Oceania, the Andaman Islanders near India, Negritos in the Philipines are not E carriers but many of them look African and many of them have afro type hair or some near variant of it, curls
They are not African. They have been out of Africa for 60,000 years and can be distingushed from Africans by genetics.

You shouldn't make an assumption like any European who has curly hair has ancestors who were haplogoup E carriers because you have no evidence to support that,

there are specific genes that cause curly hair and little is known about them

The only thing reaosnable to ask is

"Do any European males have curly hair but do not belong to Haplogroup E ?"

Instead of assuming something before investigating.

There are other forums where people could answer that quickly but I don't have the resources to, so at this point I can't answer that

These other forums are not Egyptsearch but I will post this question as a new thread in Egyptology and see if anybody can answer

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
Y DNA and mtDNA does not determine race and yes he did deal with it

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
thank you so much for answering my question directly

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For all the premade block of text he put up he did not put up Y DNA and mtDNA frequenices of the Greeks. That would be the first thing to do to analyze this question

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
i never said E was the only haplogroup that causes curly hair but it is the only haplogroup that causes European hair to curl due to recent mixture

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
mike111
prove it wrong

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
mike111
all "white" ethnic groups who have curly hair have haplogroup E
for example Greeks, Italians, Sicilians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Jews etc etc

if you are so smart then prove it wrong

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
mike111
well then my statement remains true until proven other wise

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:


im aware that there is alot of fake Greek artifacts

classical Greek art looks fake to me
it doesn't look like something that would exist during that time

for example

does this bronze statue really look like its 2300 years old?
be honest

The Marathon Youth, 4th-century BC bronze statue,

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Antikythera Ephebe
The Antikythera Ephebe is a bronze statue of a young man of languorous grace that was found in 1900 by sponge-divers in the area of the ancient Antikythera shipwreck off the island of Antikythera, Greece. It was the first of the series of Greek bronze sculptures that the Aegean and Mediterranean yielded up in the twentieth century which have fundamentally altered the modern view of Ancient Greek sculpture.[1] The wreck site, which is dated about 70–60 BC.
The Ephebe, dated by its style to about 340 BC, is one of the most brilliant products of Peloponnesian bronze sculpture.
The Ephebe, which measures 1.94 meters, slightly over lifesize, was retrieved in numerous fragments. Its first restoration was revised in the 1950s, under the direction of Christos Karouzos, changing the focus of the eyes, the configuration of the abdomen, the connection between the torso and the right upper thigh and the position of the right arm; the re-restoration is universally considered a success.

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
this only proves that the minoans are maternally European

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
lets look at the Y-DNA of Minoans:


European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 485–493. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201769; published online 31 January 2007

Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau

Abstract

The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau – a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island. The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans.


" target="_blank">http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html[/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:

Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)

Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent. This expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE) from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia, rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant (which appears to be linked rather to haplogroups G2 and E1b1b). A second expansion of J2 could have occured with the advent of metallurgy, notably copper working (from the Lower Danube valley, central Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia), and the rise of some of the oldest civilisations.

Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthaginian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All the great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men.

There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia). The Hattians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaaites, and Carthaginians all had bull deities (in contrast with Indo-European or East Asian religions). The sacred bull of Hinduism, Nandi, present in all temples dedicated to Shiva or Parvati, does not have an Indo-European origin, but can be traced back to Indus Valley civilisation. Minoan Crete, Hittite Anatolia, the Levant, Bactria and the Indus Valley also shared a tradition of bull leaping, the ritual of dodging the charge of a bull. It survives today in the traditional bullfighting of Andalusia in Spain and Provence in France, two regions with a high percentage of J2 lineages.


The world's highest frequency of J2 is found among the Ingush (88% of the male lineages) and Chechen (56%) people in the Northeast Caucasus. Both belong to the Nakh ethnic group, who have inhabited that territory since at least 3000 BCE. Their language is distantly related to Dagestanian languages, but not to any other linguistic group. However, Dagestani peoples (Dargins, Lezgins, Avars) belong predominantly to haplogroup J1 (84% among the Dargins) and almost completely lack J2 lineages. Other high incidence of haplogroup J2 are found in many other Caucasian populations, including the Azeri (30%), the Georgians (27%), the Kumyks (25%), and the Armenians (22%). Nevertheless, it is very unlikely that haplogroups J2 originated in the Caucasus because of the low genetic diversity in the region. Most Caucasian people belong to the same J2a4b (M67) subclade. The high local frequencies observed would rather be the result of founder effects, for instance the proliferation of chieftains and kings's lineages through a long tradition of polygamy, a practice that the Russians have tried to suppress since their conquest of the Caucasus in the 19th century.

Founder Effects:

In population genetics, the founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. As a result of the loss of genetic variation, the new population may be distinctively different, both genotypically and phenotypically, from the parent population from which it is derived.


Outside the Caucasus, the highest frequencies of J2 are observed in Cyprus (37%), Crete (34%), northern Iraq (28%), Lebanon (26%), Turkey (24%, with peaks of 30% in the Marmara region and in central Anatolia), Greece (23%), Central Italy (23%), Sicily (23%), South Italy (21.5%), and Albania (19.5%), as well as among Jewish people (19 to 25%).

One fourth of the Vlach people (isolated communities of Romance language speakers in the Balkans) belong to J2, considerably more than the average of Macedonia and northern Greece where they live. This, combined to the fact that they speak a language descended from Latin, suggests that they could have a greater part of Roman (or at least Italian) ancestry than other ethnic groups in the Balkans.

Middle-Eastern and European J2a

J2a's strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of J2 in the peninsula.

The Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particularly strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians played a more decisive role than other peoples. This makes sense considering that they were the first to arrive, founded the greatest number of cities (including Gadir/Cadiz, Iberia's oldest city), and their settlements match almost exactly the zone where J2 is found at a higher frequency in southern Andalusia.

The Romans probably helped spread haplogroup J2 within their borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%), which bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire (once concessions are made for the Germanic invasions that appear to have lowered the frequency of J2 between Belgium and Switzerland).

The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). J2a-M319, one of the principal J2 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%).

Indian J2a

Within India, J2a is more common among the upper castes and decreases in frequency with the caste level. This can be explained by the assimilation of local J2a (and R2) people from Bactria and Pakistan by the R1a Indo-European warriors who descended from the Volga-Ural region of Russia (Sintashta culture) and established themselves for a few centuries in southern Central Asia, immediately north of the Hindu Kush (including the Oxus civilization) before moving on to conquer the Indian subcontinent. J2a would have reached Bactria with the expansion of Neolithic herders from the Middle East who then blended with the indigenous hunter-gatherers belonging chiefly to R2.

J2b: Neolithic Balkans and Indo-Europeans

J2b has a quite different distribution from J2a. J2b seems to have a stronger association with the Neolithic and Chalcolithic cultures of Southeast Europe. It is particularly common in the Balkans, Central Europe and Italy, which is roughly the extent of the European Copper Age culture. Its maximum frequency is achieved around Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro and Northwest Greece - the part of the Balkans which best resisted the Slavic invasions in the Early Middle Ages.

The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is also found in the Pontic Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Its very low frequency in the Middle East though suggests that, unlike other J2 lineages it was not disseminated by a demic diffusion of the Neolithic lifestyle.

In many ways the distribution of J2b2 and its subclades is strongly reminiscent of G2a3b1 and its subclades. The most likely hypothesis is that both haplogroups colonised the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic, either crossing the Caucasus from eastern Anatolia or, more probably, expanding east from the flourishing cultures of 'Old Europe' (Thessalian Neolithic). J2b2 and G2a3b1 would have integrated the local R1a population, and later been joined by a larger contingent of R1b lineages coming from the North Caucasus (see R1b history).

Nowadays J2b2 is found chiefly in south-east and Central Europe, but also in Russia and among the upper castes of India. All these elements reinforce the hypothesis that J2b2 and G2a3b1 were two minor lineages spread within an R1a-dominant population during the Indo-Aryan invasions of South Asia approximately 3,500 years ago.

Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2, G2a3b1 and R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 and G2a3b1 in Europe but not in South Asia.

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quote:

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http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

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And yet the Minoans (2000 - 1400 BC )
are not the first or only Greeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization

The oldest evidence of inhabitants on Crete are preceramic Neolithic farming community remains that date to approximately 7000 BCE.[13] A comparative study of DNA haplogroups of modern Cretan men showed that a male founder group, from Anatolia or the Levant, is shared with the Greeks.

The Mycenaean conquest of the Minoans occurred in Late Minoan II period. The Mycenaeans were a military civilization. Using their functional navy and a well-equipped army they were capable of an invasion. Mycenaean weaponry has been found in burials on Crete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece

Mycenaean Greece refers to the last phase of the Bronze Age in Ancient Greece (c. 1600–1100 BCE). It represents the first advanced civilization in mainland Greece, with its palatial states, urban organization, works of art and writing system.


Mycenaean Greece perished with the collapse of Bronze-Age culture in the eastern Mediterranean. Various theories have been proposed for the end of this civilization, among them the Dorian invasion or activities connected to the “Sea People”. Additional theories such as natural disasters and climatic changes have been also suggested. The Mycenaean period became the historical setting of much ancient Greek literature and mythology, including the Trojan Epic Cycle.


During this period, the Mycenaean centers witnessed increased contacts with the outside world and especially with the Cyclades and the Minoan centers in the island of Crete.[1][23] Mycenaean presence appears to be also depicted in a fresco at Akrotiri, on Thera island, which possibly displays many warriors in Boar's tusk helmets, a feature typical of Mycenaean warfare.

Marching soldiers observed by a female figure, in a krater of c. 1200 BC in Mycenae.

Collapse (c. 1250–1100 BC)

In c. 1250 BC, the first wave of destruction has been witnessed in various centers of mainland Greece for reasons that cannot be identified by archaeologists. In Boeotia, Thebes was burnt to the ground, around that year or slightly later. Nearby Orchomenos shared the same fate, while the Boeotian fortifications of Gla were deserted.[54] In the Peloponnese, a number of buildings surrounding the citadel of Mycenae were attacked and burnt.

The reasons that lead to the collapse of the Mycenaean culture have been hotly debated among scholars. At present, there is no satisfactory explanation for the collapse of the Mycenaean palace systems. The two most common theories are population movement and internal conflict. The first attributes the destruction of Mycenaean sites to invaders.[63]
The hypothesis of a Dorian invasion, known as such in Ancient Greek tradition, that led to the end of Mycenaean Greece, is supported by sporadic archaeological evidence such as new types of burials, in particular cist graves, and the use of a new dialect of Greek, the Doric one.

Despite nearly 200 years of investigation, the actuality of the Dorian invasion has never been established.

The first widespread use of the term "Dorian invasion" appears to date to the 1830s. A popular alternative was the "Dorian migration".

6th-century cup from Laconia, the very center of the classical Dorians, representing Nike, the goddess of victory, attending upon a Spartan warrior.

The Greek Dark Age or Ages and Geometric or Homeric Age (ca. 1100–800 BC) are terms that have regularly been used to refer to the period of Greek history from the presumed Dorian invasion and end of the Mycenaean palatial civilization around 1100 BC, to the first signs of the Greek poleis in the 9th century BC.

With the collapse of the palatial centres, no more monumental stone buildings were built and the practice of wall painting may have ceased; writing in the Linear B script ceased, vital trade links were lost, and towns and villages were abandoned. The population of Greece was reduced,[5] and the world of organized state armies, kings, officials, and redistributive systems disappeared. Most of the information about the period comes from burial sites and the grave goods contained within them.

However these small tribes began to form one of Greece's greatest political achievements: the 'polis', meaning the city-state, which is what the word 'politics' is derived from. From around 800 B.C. trade flourished between the communities as market places were built up in the villages, and they began working together to form defensive units and fortifications.
In this way the Greek people developed to have strong city-states as their political centers.


The Archaic Period in Greece refers to the years between 750 and 480 B.C., more particularly from 620 to 480 B.C. The age is defined through the development of art at this time, specifically through the style of pottery and sculpture, showing the specific characteristics that would later be developed into the more naturalistic style of the Classical period. The Archaic is one of five periods that Ancient Greek history can be divided into; it was preceded by the Dark Ages and followed by the Classical period. The Archaic period saw advancements in political theory, especially the beginnings of democracy, as well as in culture and art. The knowledge and use of written language which was lost in the Dark Ages was re-established.

Classical Period (500-336 BC) - Classical period of ancient Greek history, is fixed between about 500 B. C., when the Greeks began to come into conflict with the kingdom of Persia to the east, and the death of the Macedonian king and conqueror Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. In this period Athens reached its greatest political and cultural heights: the full development of the democratic system of government under the Athenian statesman Pericles; the building of the Parthenon on the Acropolis; the creation of the tragedies of Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides; and the founding of the philosophical schools of Socrates and Plato.

Hellenistic Period (336-146 BC) - period between the conquest of the Persian Empire by Alexander the Great and the establishment of Roman supremacy, in which Greek culture and learning were pre-eminent in the Mediterranean and Asia Minor. It is called Hellenistic (Greek, Hellas, "Greece") to distinguish it from the Hellenic culture of classical Greece.
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness
my arguement was its realism not its race
it looks too advance for that time

before we verify everything you posted

How do we know it was not sculpted in the renaissance?


ill admit im proud of you
you actually are addressing my question instead of posting irrelevant pictures
perhaps i need to hurt your feelings more often
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness
my arguement was its realism not its race
it looks too advance for that time

before we verify everything you posted

How do we know it was not sculpted in the renaissance?


ill admit im proud of you
you actually are addressing my question instead of posting irrelevant pictures
perhaps i need to hurt your feelings more often

---

Perhaps you should take classes in classical art?
 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
How on earth do these threads even exist? The Greeks were undeniably European - linguistically, genetically and culturally related to other Europeans before Africans. Why would anyone want to appropriate Greek history and heritage? We have our own history in the Nile Valley
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
ish gebor "Perhaps you should take classes in classical art?"

modern scholars base classical art off a theory
the renaissance art work was similar to what they called "classical art"

how do we know "classical art" is even "classical?"
the very word classical is dealing with class which is someones social status
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ish gebor "Perhaps you should take classes in classical art?"

modern scholars base classical art off a theory
the renaissance art work was similar to what they called "classical art"

how do we know "classical art" is even "classical?"
the very word classical is dealing with class which is someones social status

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Wow you solved a problem in 5 minutes, that otherwise takes 4 years of training. Which that set of skills you can easily become an art curator.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
How on earth do these threads even exist? The Greeks were undeniably European - linguistically, genetically and culturally related to other Europeans before Africans. Why would anyone want to appropriate Greek history and heritage? We have our own history in the Nile Valley

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I have no idea? But these folks here defenitly cane from Asia minor.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
How on earth do these threads even exist? The Greeks were undeniably European - linguistically, genetically and culturally related to other Europeans before Africans. Why would anyone want to appropriate Greek history and heritage? We have our own history in the Nile Valley

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He,he,he,he:

Another one?

sudaniya - Either you are an extremely ignorant Negro, or you are another silly Albino faking Black: like lioness, who has fooled us for years (wink,wink).

On the off chance that you are really a Negro, please read the linked material before posting again.

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1.htm

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1a.htm


http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_2.htm


http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_2a.htm


This link deals with skeletons:


http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/By_the_bones.htm
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

the Ancient Greeks were white and called themselves white.

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Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
 
^^False, there is no record of the Ancient Greeks calling themselves White.

Infact when Whites showed up in Northern and Central Europe, the Greeks saw them as an entirely separate race.

Therefore the Ancient Greeks could not have been white!
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mindovermatter:
^^False, there is no record of the Ancient Greeks calling themselves White.

Infact when Whites showed up in Northern and Central Europe, the Greeks saw them as an entirely separate race.

Therefore the Ancient Greeks could not have been white!

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The Project Gutenberg Etext of Anabasis by Xenophon
Translation by H. G. Dakyns

Xenophon the Athenian was born 431 B.C. He was a pupil of Socrates. He marched with the Spartans, and was exiled from Athens. Sparta gave him land and property in Scillus, where he lived for many years before having to move once more, to settle in Corinth. He died in 354 B.C. The Anabasis is his story of the march to Persia to aid Cyrus, who enlisted Greek help to try and take the throne from Artaxerxes, and the ensuing return of the Greeks, in which Xenophon played a leading role. This occurred between 401 B.C. and March 399 B.C.


[3] I.e. "chestnuts."

The Hellenes (GREEKS) breakfasted and then started forward on their march, having first delivered the stronghold to their allies among the Mossynoecians. As for the other strongholds belonging to tribes allied with their foes, which they passed en route, the most accessible were either deserted by their inhabitants or gave in their adhesion 30 voluntarily. The following description will apply to the majority of them: the cities were on an average ten miles apart, some more, some less; but so elevated is the country and intersected by such deep clefts that if they chose to shout across to one another, their cries would be heard from one city to another. When, in the course of their march, they came upon a friendly population, these would entertain them with exhibitions of fatted children belonging to the wealthy classes, fed up on boiled chestnuts until they were as white as white can be, of skin plump and delicate, and very nearly as broad as they were long, with their backs variegated and their breasts tattooed with patterns of all sorts of flowers. They sought after the women in the Hellenic army, and would fain have laid with them openly in broad daylight, for that was their custom. The whole community, male and female alike, were fair-complexioned and white-skinned. It was agreed that this was the most barbaric and outlandish people that they had passed through on the whole expedition, and the furthest removed from the Hellenic customs
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
MORE FROM XENOPHON

The Project Gutenberg Etext of Hellenica by Xenophon
Translation by H. G. Dakyns

I.e. at Ephesus.

But contempt for one's enemy will infuse a kind of strength in battle. So the Spartan leader argued; and with a view to its production he ordered the quartermasters to put up the prisoners who had been captured by his foraging bands for auction, stripped naked; so that his Hellenic soldiery, as they looked at the white skins which had never been bared to sun and wind, the soft limbs unused to toil through constant riding in carriages, came to the conclusion that war with such adversaries would differ little from a fight with women. Dascylium (near modern day Ergili, Turkey)
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Doxie, did you see this?

He,he,he,he,he.
 

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