quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


The Moors and the Barbary pirates were not black...These groups were Eurasians that made their way into Africa from the 7th Century,

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Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
What an obsession to erase Black people from world history.

Black Moors playing chess


Moors and Christian playing chess
http://www.allposters.com/-sp/A-Moor-and-a-Christian-Playing-Chess-from-the-Altarpiece-of-Ss-Nicholas-Claire-and-Anthony-Abbot-Posters_i6244457_.htmkk

http://www.taneter.org/moors.html

http://www.taneter.org/moors2.html

http://www.taneter.org/moorsheads.html
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
North African History (Excluding Egypt)

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

.


Privateering was an age-old practice in the Mediterranean. North African rulers engaged in it increasingly in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century because it was so lucrative, and because their merchant vessels, formerly a major source of income, were not permitted to enter European ports. Although the methods varied, privateering generally involved private vessels raiding the ships of an enemy in peacetime under the authority of a ruler. Its purposes were to disrupt an opponent's trade and to reap rewards from the captives and cargo.




These Pirates destroyed thousands of French, Spanish, Italian and British ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.





Privateering was a highly disciplined affair conducted under the command of the rais (captain) of the fleets. Several captains became heros in Algerian lore for their bravery and skill. The captains of the corsairs banded together in a selfregulating taifa (community) to protect and further the corporate interests of their trade. The taifa came to be ethnically mixed, incorporating those captured Europeans who agreed to convert to Islam and supply information useful for future raids. The taifa also gained prestige and political influence because of its role in fighting the infidel and providing the merchants and rulers of Algiers with a major source of income. Algiers became the privateering city-state par excellence, especially between 1560 and 1620. And it was two privateer brothers who were instrumental in extending Ottoman influence in Algeria.





TURKISH OTTOMAN RULE


In 1510, a band of Turkish pirates, lead by Khair ad Din, known to the Europeans as Barbarossa (Redbeard), made Tunis their base, with the permission if Bey Mulay Muhammad. The pirates also gained control over other cities on the North African coast, amongst them Algiers. From there they undertook raids against christian ships and coastal settlements; abducted christians were sold as slaves on the markets of North Africa, or held for ransom. In 1516 Aruj moved his base of operations to Algiers, but was killed in 1518 during his invasion of Tlemcen. Khair ad Din succeeded him as military commander of Algiers. The Ottoman sultan gave him the title of beylerbey (provincial governor) and a contingent of some 2,000 janissaries, well-armed Ottoman soldiers. With the aid of this force, Khair ad Din subdued the coastal region between Constantine and Oran (although the city of Oran remained in Spanish hands until 1791).

Under Khair ad Din's regency, Algiers became the center of Ottoman authority in the Maghrib, from which Tunis, Tripoli, and Tlemcen would be overcome, and Morocco's independence would be threatened. So successful was Khair ad Din at Algiers that he was recalled to Constantinople in 1533 by the sultan, Süleyman I (r. 1520-66), known in Europe as Süleyman the Magnificent, and appointed admiral of the Ottoman fleet.





The next year he mounted a successful seaborne assault on Tunis. Barbarossa ousted Mulay Muhammad's successor, Mulay Hassan, and assumed the title of Bey of Tunis for himself (1534).







The ousted Bey of Tunis, Mulay Hassan, plead to Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. who agreed to equip an expedition against Tunis, not only to restore Mulay Hassan to the throne, but also to curb the piracy undertaken from there. A fleet consistying of 62 galleys and 150 other vessels left Barcelona March 29th. The Imperial & Spanish troops, commanded by Genoese Andrea Doria, supported by the Maltese Knights, landed near Carthago, took Tunis and Goletta. Tunis was taken July 21st 1535. Mulay Hassan was restored, and 20,000 christian slaves liberated. The Spanish garrisoned Tunis and Goletta. Mulay Hassan ruled Tunis as a Spanish vassal, and had to agree to end christian slavery and to introduce religious toleration. The expedition also took Bone and Biserta, both of which were garrisoned by the Spanish. The Portuguese navy participated in the expedition.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
lioness you degenerate, is there a point?

Anyway, as you know sundaniya is an African:

Asking an African about history, is like asking a pauper about how to get rich. A virgin about sexual ecstasy etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:

Doxie, I remember when all the excitement was that Egyptian Royalty was Y-dna haplogroup "R1" the "White Mans" haplogroup. Now you're claiming haplogroup "I" as the "White Mans" haplogroup. I sense that this is a "Seed Change" in Albino denial tactics, so please tell me where the haplogroup I stuff came from.
Btw - most of my alleles are I.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
^Lioness, when are you going to figure out that I no longer respond to nonsense?

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My last post was a statements and rhetorical questions not requiring a reply from you. When a reply from you is needed I will give the order.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Classic. A thousand years ago, Mauritania.

Kamal El Mekki.

http://youtu.be/vhtYZPSdJRg


The Lost Kingdoms of Africa. The Berber Kingdom. BBC.

http://youtu.be/sXm70FDMZ58
 

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Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
 
Sudaniya, you are not serious.



Jacopo Ligozzi

Barbary Moor With a Giraffe

Italy (c. 1580s)

Tempera on Paper, 278 x 218 mm.

quote:

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. . . . since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

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quote:

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not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

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The Document

SOFALA

Whereon is a town of the Moors called Sofala, close to which town the King of Portugal has a fort. These Moors established themselves there a long time ago on account of the great trade in gold which they carry on with the Gentiles of the mainland: these speak somewhat of bad Arabic (garabia), and have got a king over them, who is at present subject to the King of Portugal. And the mode of their trade is that they come by sea in small barks which they call zanbucs (sambuk), from the kingdoms of Quiloa, and Mombaza, and Melindi ; and they bring much cotton cloth of many colours, and white and blue, and some of silk; and grey, and red, and yellow beads, which come to the said kingdoms in other larger ships from the great kingdom of Cambay, which merchandise these Moors buy and collect from other Moors who bring them there, and they pay for them in gold by weight, and for a price which satisfies them ; and the said Moors keep them and sell these cloths to the Gentiles of the kingdom of Benamatapa who come there laden with gold, which gold they give in exchange for the before mentioned cloths without weighing, and so much in quantity that these Moors usually gain one hundred for one. They also collect a large quantity of ivory, which is found all round Sofala, which they likewise sell in the great kingdom of Cambay at five or six ducats the hundred weight, and so also some amber, which these Moors of Sofala bring them from the Vciques. They are black men, and men of colour -- some speak Arabic, and the rest make use of the language of the Gentiles of the country. They wrap themselves from the waist downwards with cloths of cotton and silk, and they wear other silk cloths above named, such as cloaks and wraps for the head, and some of them wear hoods of scarlet, and of other coloured woollen stuffs and camelets, and of other silks. And their victuals are millet, and rice, and meat, and fish. . . . The Moors have now recently begun to produce much fine cotton in this country, and they weave it into white stuff because they do not know how to dye it, or because they have not got any colours ; and they take the blue or coloured stuffs of Cambay and unravel them, and again weave the threads with their white thread, and in this manner they make coloured stuffs, by means of which they get much gold.
web page

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KINGDOM OF BENAMATAPA

On entering within this country of Sofala, there is the kingdom of Benamatapa, which is very large and peopled by Gentiles, whom the Moors call Cafers. These are brown men,, who go bare, but covered from the waist downwards, with coloured stuffs, or skins of wild animals; and the persons most in honour among them wear some of the tails of the skin behind them, which go trailing on the ground for state and show. . . . They carry swords in scabbards of wood bound with gold or other metals, and they wear them on the left hand side as we do, in sashes of coloured stuffs, which they make for this purpose with four or five knots, and their tassels hanging down, like gentlemen; and in their hands azagayes, and others carry bows and arrows: it must be mentioned that the bows are of middle size, and the iron points of the arrows are very large and well wrought. They are men of war, and some of them are merchants: their women go naked as long as they are girls, only covering their middles with cotton cloths, and when they are married and have children, they wear other cloths over their breasts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Punos_Rey:

quote:

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. . . . since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

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Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE 
From Herodotus, Strabo, and Procopius of Caesarea [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Wtf??? I posted that passage specifically to cite the Mauretanii were called black skinned. And tf are you talking about you explained it to me at ESR? I was the one posting in the thread that one of the whackjobs made that used that passage to prove indigenous North Africans weren't black and I used the fools own quote to show they were indeed black. Also in THIS post of mine you quoted I posted a picture of a black skinned Moor(in other words an actual Moor) right above it yet I'm the idiot?? Maybe you should take a reading comprehension course before insulting someone else.

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My apologies I did mistake you for the whack job.. ma bad.
 

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Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
https://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/07/29/the-moors-were-ofcourse-black/




Modern Moors or Black North Africans playing chess








Moor playing chess with white European


Moors playing chess

THE MOORS
BLACK CIVILIZERS OF EUROPE

An Introduction

By Maunfu 9

The so-called “Greek Miracle” was never to have a profound effect on European culture. In fact, the record shows virulent persecution of the major Greek thinkers by their own society for teaching concepts which were entirely foreign to their culture. By the 4th century, the temples and places of learning began to be shut down by the emperors of Byzantium. By the middle ages, Europe had sunk back into barbarism. But from the south – again – would come a new age of enlightenment ushered in by black Africans and black Asians from the Arabian peninsula.

As is the custom, these legendary figures have been whitened by academia and their influence erased. Yet it is clear that the sweeping wave of civilization brought in by these sons of Africa saved Europe from its backwardness and created the scientific and cultural foundation which would result in the European Rennaissance.

Over a period of 700 years, 4 superb Moorish dynasties would rule Spain, the Umayad, the Abbasid, the Almoravid and the Almohade.

Origin and Race of The Moors

The Black scholar Wayne Chandler traces the origin of the people called the Moors to an African people known as the Garamante. This civilization stood along important trading routes in the Sahara and existed contemporaneously with other great African civilizations including Egypt of the pre-Christian era. The Moors must be distinguished from the Berbers who were a mixed race people in North Africa resulting from the intermarriage between caucasian Libyans and indigenous Africans. Black Africans had beem called Maures (‘dark’) by the Greeks in antiquity and no distinction had been made between The Moorish tribes which would later invade Spain and their Black African kin. There was also to be an Arab component to these peoples and in order for this to be put in context, the racial composition of Arabia in antiquity must be understood. Much of the Arabian peninsular had originally been populated by Blacks. The area was a colony of the kingdom of Kush. Southern Arabia, in particular, remained black for a considerable period as the Greeks themselves attest.

With the coming of Islam, interaction between Moors and Arabs increased but research into the manuscripts and documents of medieval Europe emphatically demonstrates that the prevailing image of the Mooor – for the period – concerned was that of the black skinned, woolly haired African. The image occurs repeatedly in such famed works as Las Cantigas de Santa Maria , a 13th century manuscript of Moorish musical works translated by Spain’s King Alfonso X (El Sabio), one of the best known of Europe’s acquirers of Moorish texts. Numerous works such as these leave no doubt as to what race of people the term “Moor” referred to in medieval Europe.

Alfonso set up centres in cities such as Toledo for the express purpose of acquiring and translating these texts. There is no question that it was not until centuries later that the distinctions became blurred and the term Moor began to be used for various other ethnic groups as well.

The Conquest of Spain

The Ummayad Dynasty

By the end of the 7th century AD, the Islamic Jihad had swept through the Arabian peninsular and North Africa. It was the Moorish general Tarik-bin-Ziad who was given the task of spreading Moorish holdings northward into the Iberian peninsular. The catalyst for this action was the request by the Greek governor of Ceuta for help in emancipaton from the tyrany of the visigoth king Roderick who then ruled Spain.

Tarik and his black army swept up into Spain and defeated the Visigoths in successive stages – capturing and consolidating Spanish towns from the south includingToledo and Cordoba.

By 715 AD, the Ummayad dynasty had been established.It would rule Spain for over a century until 850 AD although their racial memory hes been erased, the achievements and monuments of the Moors still endure. The great Mosque at Cordoba, the Mezquita is an architectural marvel and is to this day considered one of the most magnificent buildings of the middle ages.

The Ummayad dynasty was followed by the Abbasid an Arab dynasty which usurped the throne in 750 AD. However, in 756 AD, the African Abdurrahmon led an army of African Moors up into the Iberian Penninsula, overthrew the Abbasid and re-established the Ummayad dynasty.

A description of Cordova gives an idea of the cultural excellence introduced by the Moors into Spain. Excerpted from The Golden Age of the Moor (pg 166) , a historian provides the following analysis:

“Cordova had 471 mosques, and 300 public baths……and the number of houses of the great and noble were 63,000 and 200, 077 houses of the common people. There were ….upwards of 80,000 shops. Water from the mountains was…distributed through every corner and quarter of the city by means of leaden pipes into basins of different shapes, made of the purst gold, the finest silver or plated brass as well into vast lakes, curious tanks, amazing resevoirs and fountains of Grecian marble.” The houses in Cordova were air conditioned in the summer by “ingeniously arranged draughts of fresh air drawn from the garden over beds of flowers, chosen for their perfume, warmed in winter by hot air conveyed through pipes bedded in the walls. Bathrooms supplied hot and cold water and there were tables of gold, set with emweralds rubies and pearls. This list of impressve works appears endless; it includes lampposts that lit their streets at night, to grand palaces, such as the one called Azzahra with its 15,000 doors. Rennaissance men like Zaryab.”

White Slavery

Over time, an ugly development in the history of the Moors began: The initiation and growth of the aquisition of white slaves as a prevalent aspect of its culture. The trade was began by a a Jewish element which began to buy and sell captured Slavs and Germans as laborers and concubines. the polygamous tendencies of the Islamic Black Moors encouraged this development and contributed to the lightening of the complexion of the Moorish element over time. It also contributed to a degeneration of values. The Ummayyad dynasty became ripe foe overthrow and in 1031 Christian forces achieved their defeat and brought the dynasty to a close.

The Almoravid Dynasty

The famous era of the Almoravids begins with The Black Muslim leader Ibn Yasin. Originally brought from Mecca, Yasin’s initial base of operations was in the area of Senegal in West Africa. He embarked upon an ambitious effort to convert all of the surrounding area to Islam through force. Over time, the Almoravids (from “Al-Murabitun”) conquered a vast area of west and northern Africa. In 1076, they overwhelmed and brought to an end the mighty Empire of Ghana itself . In 1086 AD, Yusuf Ibn Tashibin became aware of events in Spain, where Christians had long been persecuting Arabs and Moors. Yusuf invaded Spain to aid in its liberation. He is unequivocably described in the Moorish work Roudh-el Kartos as a black skinned African. Other matters back home in Africa however prompted him to return before the conquest was complete. He left his army to aid the Spaniards in their battle but was later informed that the local Spanish governers had left the Moors to do most of the fighting.

Yusuf in fury, ordered their replacement with Moorish rulers and there followed a splendid era of African rule which would not end until 1142 AD

The Almohade Dynasty

In 1145, the last Moorish dynasty came to power. African accomplishment in the penisular reached its apex. But Christian resolve had strengthened, and as Moorish culture grew more and more passive, Christian forces gained courage and began a campaign which recaptured territories from the blacks over the following centuries.
The Almohade dynasty had deep intellectual concerns and encouraged its thinkers and scholars to engage in great debates and expressions of ideas of both theological and secular nature. It is during the reign of this dynasty that the tower of Seville is constructed. And it is during this time that Abu-Al-Walid Mohamed ibn Mohamed ibgn Rashd, known to the West as Averroes established a peerless intellectual body of work in the arts and sciences which is revered to this day.
Ummayad savants and scholars initiated another intellectual revolution by ushering in and promoting:
Land reforms in Spain.
Religious freedom.
Support of the arts and sciences.
A rennaissance in knowledge as the wisdom of the ancient cultures was relearned through the works of the Greeks, Hebrews, Chinese, Persians.Translating all into Arabic.
They were the first to trace the curvilinear path of light through the air.(1100)
They achieved advances in chemistry including the invention of gunpopwder.
Discoveries in Astronomy and on the nature of the earth.
The invention of the Astrolabe and the compass.
The medical use of vivisection and dissection.

The Almohade dynasty was to last until 1230 when Christian forces drove the last Moorish elements out of Spain in successive campaigns. But Europe was to benefit imeasurably from the legacy of these Africans for centuries after the expulsion:

Absence of class system, such that any man (regardless of birth stature) could rise to any rank except that of supreme ruler. This was in marked contrast to the Visigothic Christians who were legendry in their cruelty and usery
The creation of hospitals with running water and the widespread construction of baths. Christian Europe held this rite of bating in contempt for centuries.
Numerous fabulous gardens.
Latrines with running water hundreds of years before the rest of Europe.
Paved streets and street lights. Numerous bookstores and a highly literate populace.
The Moors also took interior decoration to new heights in elaborate building ideas. This compares with the rest of Europe where most structures were barren, artless hulks without the minimum of utilities even for hygiene.

Agriculture

The Moors of Al Andalu (Spain) introduced advanced numerous crops and methods of soil productivity including irrigation, crop rotation and the use of manure. After harvesting, Moorish preservation and drying know-how meant that foods could endure and be edible for several years.

Universities

There were numerous schools and places of learning in Moorish Al-Andalus (Spain).

begining with the Univerity of Cordoba, other great institutions were built in Seville, Valencia, Mallarga and Granada. Like the ancient Greeks under the Egyptians , several of the most prominent European Catholic scholars studied under the African Moors in their institutions in Spain. The Moors translated all great works they could lay their hands on from the ancients into Arabic. This included the knowledge of Egypt, Kush, India, China and the Greece. Western historians point to the Greek component of these documents and attempt to paint the Moors as merely borrowers of Greek intellectual culture. This ignores the fact that Greek knowledge comes directly from Ancient Egypt and that there is convincing evidence that the Moors already possesed similar knowledge of their own from their homelands.

But this was not only limited to higher education. The Moors promoted literacy and the advancement of the general population. Schools were everywhere, many of them free of charge.

Medicine

Again, far in advance of Western Europe, Moorish physicians were specially trained and highly regulated. They practiced surgery and cauterization and understood the importance of cleanliness in the operating environment.

Jose Pimienta Bey notes in Golden Age of the Moor (pg 211):

“Europeans offered no competition with Moorish advances in pathology, aetiology (study of diseases), therapeutics, surgery and pharmacology. Texts were written by Moorish physicians describing surgical technique and instruments that were used; doctors specialized in pediatrics, obstetrics, opthalmology, and in the treatment of hernias and tumors. Imamuddin tells us that Moorish scientists were even importing monkey skeletons from Africa for use in dissection when conditions prevented the use of cadavers.”

For the Andalusan Moor, scholarly endeavor was considered devine. The more one knew of one’s self and one’s World, the more one was sup[posed to know of one’s Creator. The ancient Kemetic creed “Know Thyself” was very much the creed of Andalus……….Rulers such as the Caliph Abd al-Rahman III, spent almost one-third of the state’s income on education. At a time when most Christan monarchs could not even write their own names, the Caliphs of Moorish Spain were often scholars.

The works of a number of Moorish savants were revered, translated and became required texts in the universities which later developed in Europe. These include Generalities on Medicine by Averroes, Solitary Regime by Avempace, Primus Canonis by Avicenna and Al-Tasrif, by Abulcasis, which became the predominant university medical text for Europe’s physicians.

Science

It was the Moorish chemists such as Jabir who discovered nitric, nitro-muriatric and sulphuric acid. They were well versed in the science well before Europe.

Jose Pimienta-Bey notes the proximity of the founding dates of the major European universities to the translations of Moorish works by rulers such as Alfonso X of Spain. These centres of learning relied primarilly on Moorish texts for centuries

The Primary Source for this article is:

The Golden Age of the Moor. Edited by Ivan Van Sertima. Transaction Books, 1992.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
^for an accurate translation we need the original scripture.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^for an accurate translation we need the original scripture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^for an accurate translation we need the original scripture.

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Absolutely:

Translated by someone trustworthy.

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.
This is why I had to learn numerous languages to conduct my research back in the day.

.
 

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Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
All of the above quotes about Mauretanii sound like Albino nonsense.

"Men of Color" - Who in ancient times used those words????

"very white in body and fair-haired" WHO would THAT be????

And who used "Fair Haired" as a descriptor???


Come-on people, try to keep up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
I’ve done further research on the matter and it seems that I was wrong… some of the Moors were black, but it was the Syrian Umayyad dynasty that initially commissioned the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula with an army composed mostly of Berbers and Arabs from Yemen and some black fighters from the Sahel. The Moors were just grunts in the initial thrust into the Iberian Peninsula. The Barbary pirates were not black and so CelticWarrioress was wrong when she tried to lay the crimes of the Barbary pirates at our feet. There is no moral equivalence between blacks and whites. Europeans have decimates hundreds of millions of people on the four corners of the earth and have stolen entire continents and so we can’t be morally equated with them. This was my point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
[QB] North African History (Excluding Egypt)

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

.


Privateering was an age-old practice in the Mediterranean. North African rulers engaged in it increasingly in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century because it was so lucrative, and because their merchant vessels, formerly a major source of income, were not permitted to enter European ports. Although the methods varied, privateering generally involved private vessels raiding the ships of an enemy in peacetime under the authority of a ruler. Its purposes were to disrupt an opponent's trade and to reap rewards from the captives and cargo.




These Pirates destroyed thousands of French, Spanish, Italian and British ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Nobody denies that modern man originated in Africa and colonized every corner of the world tens of thousands of years ago, but you have not presented any evidence suggesting that the Moors commissioned the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula on their own. Provide your answers [with actual evidence] instead of talking nonsense.

PS: I don't believe that Africans couldn't conquer regions outside Africa without the help of others because my people conquered Palestine and Lebanon long before the Moors were sent into Europe by the Umayyad dynasty in the services of the noble message of the Quran.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
lioness

"We"? You're not even black

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

You haven't provided evidence of anything other than crappy, indefinite drawings of Barbary pirates. These pirates were just like the people we see on the North African coast today -- light skin Berbers whose ancestors migrated into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago or Arabs that arrived in Africa in the 7th century.

If there were black pirates among the Barbary Pirates, then they were probably just mercenaries - a numerically insignificant group not worthy of mention.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] Nobody denies that modern man originated in Africa and colonized every corner of the world tens of thousands of years ago, but you have not presented any evidence suggesting that the Moors commissioned the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula on their own.

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That doesn't matter these are allies

After the initial conquest The Almoravids a Berber dynasty from the Sahara spread over a wide area of North-Western Africa and the Iberian peninsula during the 11th century. Under this dynasty the Moorish empire was extended over present-day Morocco, Western Sahara, Mauritania, Gibraltar, Tlemcen (in Algeria) and a great part of what is now Senegal and Mali in the south, and Spain and Portugal to the north in Europe.


Extent of the Almoravid empire, 11th century


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
readable link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TJBBJZ3uBvAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have only read a few of pages so far



 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

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there is no more proof that I am not black than proof that you are black

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quote:

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Morocco is comprised mainly of Arabized berbers, defined as berbers before Islam

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That doesn't matter these are allies

After the initial conquest The Almoravids a Berber dynasty from the Sahara spread over a wide area of North-Western Africa and the Iberian peninsula during the 11th century. Under this dynasty the Moorish empire was extended over present-day Morocco, Western Sahara, Mauritania, Gibraltar, Tlemcen (in Algeria) and a great part of what is now Senegal and Mali in the south, and Spain and Portugal to the north in Europe.


Extent of the Almoravid empire, 11th century

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
readable link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TJBBJZ3uBvAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have only read a few of pages so far

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:


The Moors and the Barbary pirates were not black...These groups were Eurasians that made their way into Africa from the 7th Century,

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---

I'm quite certain that you are not black.



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Clyde - As I had told Brada many times previous, when he brought up Van sertima. I chose never to read the work of past Afrocentrics because in skimming, I found their conclusions to be "Flawed" at best, and often "Made-up".

I'm sure Mr. Williams was sincere in his work, but the thing about White Egyptians as conquering hordes is pure nonsense - unless he is talking "Post Dynastic".

Have you read his work? What is he talking about?
I would hate to declare him a fool.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Clyde - As I had told Brada many times previous, when he brought up Van sertima. I chose never to read the work of past Afrocentrics because in skimming, I found their conclusions to be "Flawed" at best, and often "Made-up".

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Pure nonsense.

Al~Murabitun originated in
Mauritania and Senegal.

What the fact is, is that the
founder of al~Murabitun
disgusted with Zenaga
speakers turned to the
'Gnawa' of northern most
Senegal who were already
Muslim practicing standard
Islam.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
.
The fact that Senegal and Mauritania were conquered and incorporated into these empires is of tremendous importance; it means that blame cannot be ascribed to people that were themselves subjugated by others -- others that instructed them to act under their agency under coercion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
For those who don't know

Al~Murabitun = Almoravid dynasty 1040–1147 AD

---

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
readable link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TJBBJZ3uBvAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have only read a few of pages so far


http://www.ephotobay.com/share/screen-shot-2016-03-25-at-11-43-58-am.html http://www.ephotobay.com/image/screen-shot-2016-03-25-at-11-43-58-am.png

---

quote:

---

"not all of the black african population are gnawa."

---

--Deborah Anne Kapchan

Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.


Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.


E-M81 the Berber CLADE!!!!!!

quote:

---

“Haplogroup E

Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007).

Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004).


Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %). 

Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking.

[...]

Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
From http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-8478.html

Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th
century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs
and Arab influence from the north. The growing Arab presence pressed
the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther
south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th
century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those
remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers.Several groups of Yemeni Arabs who had been devastating
the north of Africa turned south to Mauritania. Settling in northern
Mauritania, they disrupted the caravan trade, causing routes to shift east,
which in turn led to the gradual decline of Mauritania's trading towns. One
particular Yemeni group, the Bani Hassan, continued to migrate southward
until, by the end of the 17th century, they dominated the entire
country. The last effort of the Berbers to shake off the Arab yoke was the
Mauritanian Thirty Years' War (1644-74), or Sharr Bubba, led by Nasir ad
Din, a Lemtuna imam (see Glossary). This Sanhadja war of liberation
was, however, unsuccessful; the [u]Berbers were forced to abandon the
sword and became vassals to the warrior Arab groups[/u].

Thus, the contemporary social structure of Mauritania can be dated from
1674. The warrior groups or Arabs dominated the Berber groups, who
turned to clericalism to regain a degree of ascendancy. At
the bottom of the social structure were the slaves, subservient to both
warriors and Islamic holy men. [u]All of these groups, whose language was
Hassaniya Arabic, became known as Maures[/u]. The bitter rivalries and
resentments characteristic of their social structure were later fully
exploited by the French.


alTakruri notes:
Missing from the essay is the first Arab attack against Ghana
which was utterly smashed. A few Arabs fled back north
across the Sahara but the majority of the invading forces
settled down in the Tagant and the Hodh under suzeriegnty
of Ghana where they became the Honethin (sp?)

---

quote:

---

-Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs and Arab influence from the north.


-The growing Arab presence pressed the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants.

-By the 16th century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.

---

quote:

---

The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.

In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).

First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.

This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.


Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.

A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.

How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.

- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.

- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.

This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.

---

quote:

---

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers

---

Of which Berbers do they speak? "Berbers" seems kind of general. I doubt very much they went by the name "Berber".


Was the author perhaps implying this woman is a slave descendant?





http://afroasiatics.blogspot.com/2014_03_01_archive.html

Or these guys. Are they descendants of slaves? lol



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB]

quote:

---

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers

---

Of which Berbers do they speak?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB]

quote:

---

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers

---

Of which Berbers do they speak?

---

Sanhaja

---

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
According to certain Midieval Arabic writers the Berbers were composed of 70 clans that descended from 5 major tribes which were the Masmuda, Ketama, Sanhaja Zenata and Ghomara.

One translation of Manilius tells us the Berbers of Mauretania were the fairest of all the black peoples (including the Ethiopians, Indi and Egyptians). These were the Mauri whom Jerome and other Romans classified as Ethiopians and whom Platus says were also known as "Niger" or "Nigri".

ZENATA


Tuareg of Mali belong to the of Iforas or Banu Ifren anciently known as the Ifuraces of the Laguaten Mauri a camel riding "Ethiopian" race of ancient Tripolitania in Libya. They still use the same swords menitoned by Corripus.

The "race of Guelaia" including the Bu Ifrur belonged to the Zenata as well. They were among the last remnants of eh pure Zenata in the northern Morrocan area.




"For some strange reason" they are classified by early writers as "the black descendants of Canaan" black race of Ham. Everyone from ibn Qutaybah in the 9th century to Ibn Khaldun of the 14th claimed this. (Of course the allegory doesn't explain the color of modern black Africans Berber or otherwise.) Actually looking at these photos you can see it wasn't strange at all.



Berber of the Shluh

Masmuda of the Shluh and Upper Atlas are called blacks by Abu Shama and by the Iranian Nasr Khosroes 11th c. who designates the Masmuda soldiers in the Fatimid army "the black Africans" "FOR SOME STRANGE REASON".

Masmuda lined the coast of Morrroco in earlier times before the later Zenata arrival.

Modern Ghomara claim descent from the Masmuda.

Most Berbers are still the lightest of "the Ethiopian" races


Berbers in Libya

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB]

quote:

---

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers

---

Of which Berbers do they speak?

---

Sanhaja

---

Sanhaja. lol OK. incase you missed this one:

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

---

--Originally appearing in Volume V28, Page 967 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/YAK_ZYM/ZENAGA_SANHAJA_SENAJER_.html#ixzz3bwEgpvbW


A Thousand Years Ago In Mauritania - Kamal El Mekki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtYZPSdJRg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB]

quote:

---

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers

---

Of which Berbers do they speak?

---

Sanhaja

---

Sanhaja. lol OK. incase you missed this one:

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

---

--Originally appearing in Volume V28, Page 967 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/YAK_ZYM/ZENAGA_SANHAJA_SENAJER_.html#ixzz3bwEgpvbW


A Thousand Years Ago In Mauritania - Kamal El Mekki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtYZPSdJRg

---

So you ask me which berbers and I gave you the answer, yet in your backwards mind I missed something

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
why are you saying I missed something?

---

quote:

---

Ethnic Groups: Six ethnic groups; one primarily Arab-Berber (Maure), remainder black African (Toucouleur, Fulbe, Soninke, Wolof, and Bambara). Numerical proportions of each a source of contention; in 1978 government claimed 70 percent Maure; others said blacks constituted 50 percent or more.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
why are you saying I missed something?

---

It was a recollection of the data, "African America woman". I'm not saying you missed it, I said "in case" you missed it. There is a 50/50% chance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
why are you saying I missed something?

---

It was a recollection of the data, "African America woman". I'm not saying you missed it, I said "in case" you missed it. There is a 50/50% chance.

---

stop being stupid

---

It's you who is stupid one, and you always have been. So you now try to derail the thread. So people will not notice. "Africa American woman". lol

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] why are you saying I missed something?

---

It was a recollection of the data, "African America woman". I'm not saying you missed it, I said "in case" you missed it. There is a 50/50% chance.

---

stop being stupid

---

It's you who is stupid one, and you always have been. So you now try to derail the thread. So people will not notice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
For those who don't know

Al~Murabitun = Almoravid dynasty 1040–1147 AD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] why are you saying I missed something?

---

It was a recollection of the data, "African America woman". I'm not saying you missed it, I said "in case" you missed it. There is a 50/50% chance.

---

stop being stupid

---

It's you who is stupid one, and you always have been. So you now try to derail the thread. So people will not notice.

---

You are a troll, jealous of this conversation and trying to insert yourself into it and trying to provoke me with your "Lols" and "in case you missed this one" bullshit. Mike already warned you

---

You have some nerve, calling people a troll. "African American" woman? You are known as liar and euronut here. Do I really need to recall and reminded you?

Jealous,lol Yeah sure. You took someone else post, ran away with it like a f... thief. Speaking of trolling. lol

Are these people descendants of slaves? lol





See, your nature is hideous. Look at how you fight with tooth and nails when it comes to the history of anyone else, outside of blacks. You go mad over Amerindians, you go mad over Europe etc...

See, you are not what you claim to be, "African America woman". lol

You have a TYPICAL: racist colonial mindset!!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
You have some nerve, calling people a troll. "African American" woman? You are known as liar and euronut here. Do I really need to recall and reminded you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

Are these people descendants of slaves? lol

---

Again you are trolling.
You are asking me if these people are descendants of slaves.
Nobody even mentioned slaves in this thread.
And the question is stupid because how could anybody look at this picture and know if the people in it were descendants of slaves or not? It's just another of your troll attempts to derail the thread with off topic remarks
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
So, do you think he's a descendant of slaves?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Sudaniya,

Bull crap the Barbary pirates were in fact Black so yes their crimes and those of the Moors fall squarely at your feet. Sorry but Blacks aren't innocent angels,you did your share of land stealing,kidnapping,slaughtering,& brutal enslavement of others (particularly Whites). Whites suffered over 1000 yrs of brutality & slavery at your hands and you bunch of weak,pathetic,whiny, cry babies want to complain about a mere 265 odd years under us. I would say you got off pretty dang light if you ask me. Then there's those wanna be White Turkish bastards (they are still to this day luring Slavic women to Turkey with promises of jobs or husbands & selling them into sexual slavery when they arrive), then those slant eyed Mongol bastards all took turns making Whites their bitches & you want to fault us for taking revenge when we got the chance lol. We knew what you Blacks & other non-Whites would do to us again if given the opportunity.

---

The above is all nonsense, but it's comedy gold. Thanks for the laughs. You need psychological help. So in order for blacks to be as blood-soaked as you, the Arabs of North Africa and the coastal Arabized Berbers have to be transformed into black people? The Barbary pirates were Arabs and light-skinned coastal Berbers -- a people that originally came into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula and settled on the North African coast.

The Barbary Pirates were from the North African coast. Pictures of Barbary pirates:















Do they look black to you?
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Their descendants in North Africa:




















It was the Syrian Umayyad dynasty that commissioned, organized and executed the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, and I'm quite certain that Syrians are not black. The Barbary pirates came from the North African coast -- an area the Arabs conquered in the 7th century AD from the light-skinned Berbers... a people that migrated into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago.

The only time black people would have enslaved non-blacks is when we enslaved Western Asian war captives (not women and children) that kept on trying to conquer Egypt, particularly in the Delta. We eventually lost Egypt in the 7th century AD to the very Arabs that enslaved you.

Provide evidence of blacks enslaving and brutalizing Europeans for a thousand years. You claim that the 400 years of killing and enslaving tens of millions of blacks is retribution, so provide evidence.

When you killed over a hundred million native peoples in the Americas and the Caribbean, was that also justified revenge? I suppose the killing of native peoples in Australia and New Zealand was also justified?
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Europeans like the Vikings and the Venetians sold other whites to the Arab Barbary pirates, so the only two groups to blame for the enslavement of 1 million whites are Arabs and whites themselves.


"The Venetians supplied the markets of the Saracens with slaves purchased from the Slavonian tribes which bordered on the Adriatic. Besides, as personal slavery and the traffic in slaves continued in all Mohammedan countries, Christian captives taken by Musselmans were sold in the markets of Asia and Northern Africa, and have continued to be sold till within our own times, when Christian slavery has been abolished in Barbary, Egypt, and the Ottoman empire, by the interference of the Christian powers, the emancipation of Greece, and the conquest of Algiers by the French."
http://www.magnumarchive.com/c/cyclopedia-of-knowledge-volume-4/Slavery-Slave.html
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
sudaniya - First of all:

Damn you're Stupid!

Sorry lioness, sudaniya has supplanted you as the one most deserving of that exclamation.

Is it just me, or does sudaniya sound like lamin jr.?

sudaniya - please do us all a favor, and read some North African history. It will explain those White faces which seem to confuse you so much.

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

Doxie - absorbing everything and saving it up to pounce on the ignorant I see. Albino devil, you're getting scary.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:



Clyde - As I had told Brada many times previous, when he brought up Van sertima. I chose never to read the work of past Afrocentrics because in skimming, I found their conclusions to be "Flawed" at best, and often "Made-up".

I'm sure Mr. Williams was sincere in his work, but the thing about White Egyptians as conquering hordes is pure nonsense - unless he is talking "Post Dynastic".

Have you read his work? What is he talking about?
I would hate to declare him a fool.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The above is all nonsense, but it's comedy gold. Thanks for the laughs. You need psychological help. So in order for blacks to be as blood-soaked as you, the Arabs of North Africa and the coastal Arabized Berbers have to be transformed into black people? The Barbary pirates were Arabs and light-skinned coastal Berbers -- a people that originally came into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula and settled on the North African coast.

---

Eugène Delacroix : Le nègre au turban


"A Moor Wearing a Turban and Armour".
by Karel van III Mander,1625-1670


Mike can you believe this sudaniya character? He claims to come from Sudan yet doesn't know what "Arabized" means
 

---

Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
Very nice Van Mander painting of a Moor.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
So, do you think he's a descendant of slaves?

---

stop it troll

he is potentially a slave master

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
You have some nerve, calling people a troll. "African American" woman? You are known as liar and euronut here. Do I really need to recall and reminded you?

---

You don't know what a troll is. A troll is someone who calls people names unprovoked and they do this to try to get an emotional reaction and take an intellectual discussion into and emotional argument. That is why you are a troll.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

Are these people descendants of slaves? lol

---

Again you are trolling.
You are asking me if these people are descendants of slaves.
Nobody even mentioned slaves in this thread.
And the question is stupid because how could anybody look at this picture and know if the people in it were descendants of slaves or not? It's just another of your troll attempts to derail the thread with off topic remarks

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Sudaniya,

Bull crap the Barbary pirates were in fact Black so yes their crimes and those of the Moors fall squarely at your feet. Sorry but Blacks aren't innocent angels,you did your share of land stealing,kidnapping,slaughtering,& brutal enslavement of others (particularly Whites). Whites suffered over 1000 yrs of brutality & slavery at your hands and you bunch of weak,pathetic,whiny, cry babies want to complain about a mere 265 odd years under us. I would say you got off pretty dang light if you ask me. Then there's those wanna be White Turkish bastards (they are still to this day luring Slavic women to Turkey with promises of jobs or husbands & selling them into sexual slavery when they arrive), then those slant eyed Mongol bastards all took turns making Whites their bitches & you want to fault us for taking revenge when we got the chance lol. We knew what you Blacks & other non-Whites would do to us again if given the opportunity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Sudaniya,

Bull crap the Barbary pirates were in fact Black so yes their crimes and those of the Moors fall squarely at your feet. Sorry but Blacks aren't innocent angels,you did your share of land stealing,kidnapping,slaughtering,& brutal enslavement of others (particularly Whites). Whites suffered over 1000 yrs of brutality & slavery at your hands and you bunch of weak,pathetic,whiny, cry babies want to complain about a mere 265 odd years under us. I would say you got off pretty dang light if you ask me. Then there's those wanna be White Turkish bastards (they are still to this day luring Slavic women to Turkey with promises of jobs or husbands & selling them into sexual slavery when they arrive), then those slant eyed Mongol bastards all took turns making Whites their bitches & you want to fault us for taking revenge when we got the chance lol. We knew what you Blacks & other non-Whites would do to us again if given the opportunity.

---

quote:

---

Slavery in the ancient world and in Rome was vital to both the economy and even the social fabric of the society. While it was commonplace throughout the Mediterranean region, and the Hellenistic regions in the east, it was not nearly so vital to others as it was to the dominance of Rome. As the Romans consolidated their hegemony of Italy and Sicily followed by the systematic conquest of western Europe, countless millions of slaves were transported to Rome the Italian countryside and Latin colonies all over Europe.

...

---

quote:

---

Slave trading


Written sources tell us that the Vikings sold slaves at trading centres, such as Hedeby, and Bolghar on the Volga. Here slaves were traded and exchanged for other products. The buyers might be Viking farmers, who could use slaves in the household, as well as for the hardest and most unpleasant work in the fields. Significant numbers of slaves probably also provided a proportion of the manpower for the great building projects of the Viking Age.

The Vikings were not the only ones who traded in slaves. Slaves were also traded in Western Europe, but here it was not common practice to sell fellow countrymen. The Church was against Christians being forced into slavery by “the heathen” Vikings. One account describes how a monk was so shocked at seeing Christian slaves for sale in Hedeby in 870, that he sold all his possessions and personally bought the slaves their freedom.

Therefore, the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe were for a long period an obvious target for European and Nordic slave traders. It is from this area that the term “slave” originates.

...

---

quote:

---

The 10th century

The Aristocracy - The Anglo-Saxon territory was divided into seven separate kingdoms commonly referred to as the heptarchy. Each kingdom was ruled by a king, the king's sons who were called aethlings and the ruling nobility known as the eoldermen. (Anglo-Saxon village) The basic unit of land was called the hide which was enough land to support one family and varied in size from 40 acres to 4 square miles. Approximately one hundred hides formed the unit known as the 'hundred', and each village or shire contained many hundreds. (another Anglo-Saxon village) For each hundred, one leader known as the 'hundred eolder' was responsible for administration, justice, and supplying military troops, as well as, leading its forces. The office was not hereditary, but by the tenth century the office was selected from among a few outstanding families.

The thane, similar to the knight, stood at the lowest echelon of the aristocracy. Good service by a thane resulted in gifts, the granting of lands, and elevation to eolderman. Members of the clergy held the title of thane as they were considered one of 'God's thanes', and bishops generally held the position of eolderman.

The Middle Class - The middle class was divided into three main classes of freemen, also known as ceorls: The geneatas, a peasant aristocracy who paid rent to their overlord, the kotsetlas, and the geburs, or lower middle class. All ceorls had the right and duty to serve in the fyrd, which was the Anglo-Saxon military. Ceorls won promotion through economic prosperity or military service. If a ceorl possessed five hides of land, he became entitled to the rights of a thane, but could not be elevated to the position of thane or eolderman.

The lower class - At the lowest end of the social strata was the slave or bondsmen, also known as the theow. Although they were slaves or bondsmen, they were entitled to certain provisions, such as grain. The slaves were allowed to own property and could earn money in their spare time which allowed them to buy their freedom. When times were difficult people sold themselves into slavery to ensure they were provisioned.

The early Anglo-Saxon society was organized around clans or tribes and was centered around a system of reciprocity called comitatus. The eoldorman expected martial service and loyalty from his thanes, and the thanes expected protection and rewards from the lord. By the middle of the ninth century the royal family of Wessex was universally recognized as the English royal family and held a hereditary right to rule. Succession to the throne was not guaranteed as the witan, or council of leaders, had the right to choose the best successor from the members of the royal house.

The military organization - As stated above, the military organization was called the fyrd, which consisted of highly trained thanes chosen from each hundred. Thanes became 'professional' warriors because their position within the society depended upon it. In peace time the thanes had to serve one month out of every three in rotation, so there was always a sizeable force on call. Loyalty to a lord was the greatest virtue for the thane, and if their lord or king died in battle, his men were expected to die avenging his death, as it was considered dishonorable to leave the battlefield on which the military leader had been slain. Those who did were executed by their lord's successor for their disloyalty. The Fyrd also served as a police force when not at war.

Religion and the role of the church - (St Alpheges church) (St. Wereburg) Besides the spiritual functions of the church, the Church also fulfilled the functions of a 'civil service', and for the nobility, an educational system. The Church and the government needed men who could read and write in English and Latin to write letters and keep accounts. (illuminated manuscripts) The words 'cleric' and 'clerk' have the same origin, and every nobleman would have at least one priest to act as a secretary.

Economy - The economy of the early middle ages was not cash based. (Anglo-Saxon clothing) Even though coins were minted, their use was not widespread, and most goods were bartered. (jewelry and pottery) Trade relied upon transport to be effective, and water was the preferred method of transport. For this reason, the most successful markets were near rivers.

Slavery was an important part of the Anglo-Saxon economy. Almost all the slaves traded in the early middle ages were captured in raids or warfare. It seems to have been the practice to kill the leaders of the losing army and enslave the local villagers. The English conquest of Cornwall led to the enslavement of many of the indigenous Celts. At the Westminster Council of 1102ce, slavery was abolished.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish you are a complete hypocrite. You recently posted in my thread called "Tukuler what do you make of this? " a Wesley Muhammad video talking about blacks enslaving whites in North Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
So your 1000 years analogy makes no sense at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
So your 1000 years analogy makes no sense at all.

---

I didn't make a 1000 years analogy, jackass

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
sudaniya - First of all:

Damn you're Stupid!

Sorry lioness, sudaniya has supplanted you as the one most deserving of that exclamation.

Is it just me, or does sudaniya sound like lamin jr.?

sudaniya - please do us all a favor, and read some North African history. It will explain those White faces which seem to confuse you so much.

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

Doxie - absorbing everything and saving it up to pounce on the ignorant I see. Albino devil, you're getting scary.

---

Yes, because to be intelligent (like you) I would have to believe in black Chinese, Olmecs, Aztecs, Romans, Vikings, Irish, English and so on.


You can't just dismiss every light skin person in North Africa as a derivative of 16th century white slavery because we have images of light skinned people thousands of years before that event. These light-skinned Libyans appear after the depiction of black skinned Libyans.

Libyans from 3000 years ago:











A Syrian and a Libyan with virtually identical skin tones:



King Juba I -- Berber King



Juba II - Berber king




Massinissa Berber King


 

---

Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
The bust of Juba and the coin are fakes u dummy.

Juba was Black.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Lying Ass

You really are a slippery snake, aren't you? You argued that the Moors were not black in other threads, but you've conveniently spurned your prior beliefs when it suits your anti-black agenda.

I've consistently made it clear that the Almoravids made use of fighters from areas in the Sahel like Senegal and Mali, and so *some* Moors were undoubtedly black -- mercenaries.

"Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries.

Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons
"http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm

Moors



St James slaying Moors



Santiago Slaying Moors






Moorish Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth





Moors







Moorish heads


 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Riffians










We have pictures of light skinned North Africans (like the Libyans depicted on Egyptian Murals) so these people aren't necessarily derivatives of the white slave trade.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Yes, because to be intelligent (like you) I would have to believe in black Chinese, Olmecs, Aztecs, Romans, Vikings, Irish, English and so on.

---

He,he,he:

Yes, you do indeed need to believe in those facts to be considered intelligent.

You're one of those "FAKE" Berbers (Amazigh), aren't you.


Quote: You can't just dismiss every light skin person in North Africa as a derivative of 16th century white slavery because we have images of light skinned people thousands of years before that event. These light-skinned Libyans appear after the depiction of black skinned Libyans.





Compare with this authentic relief from Medinet Habu, the libyans are "DARK" skinned!


 

---

Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
The Albino and Turk mulatto delusion is strong.

They steal other people's history and coopt their identities and then are willing to do anything to maintain the lie and hide proof of the theft.

Mike, there is no doubt that sudaniya would kill you if he could.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Mike

There's nothing "fake" about those Berbers, you racist twit. Light skinned people have lived in Africa for at least 3000 thousand years and really can't be called "fake". I already told you that I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers like the Garamantes, Tuaregs, Siwa and many other black Berber groups.

Their paternal DNA is also African, so you can't disassociate them from Africa.

I'm not a Berber. I'm Sudanese.
 

---

Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
The Albino and Turk mulatto delusion is strong.

They steal other people's history and coopt their identities and then are willing to do anything to maintain the lie and hide proof of the theft.

Mike, there is no doubt that sudaniya would kill you if he could.

---

I assume that you are an African-American or something, in which case I am more African than you because I actually come directly from Africa and have family over there. Why would I want to take a human life?
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
The Albino and Turk mulatto delusion is strong.

They steal other people's history and coopt their identities and then are willing to do anything to maintain the lie and hide proof of the theft.

Mike, there is no doubt that sudaniya would kill you if he could.

---

I assume that you are an African-American or something, in which case I am more African than you because I actually come directly from Africa and have family over there. Why would I want to take a human life?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
The Albino and Turk mulatto delusion is strong.

They steal other people's history and coopt their identities and then are willing to do anything to maintain the lie and hide proof of the theft.

Mike, there is no doubt that sudaniya would kill you if he could.

---

I assume that you are an African-American or something, in which case I am more African than you because I actually come directly from Africa and have family over there. Why would I want to take a human life?

---

.
Actually if you really are Sudanese (which I doubt), you are of a people who know killing all too well.

Sudanese Civil Wars:

The Second Sudanese Civil War was a conflict from 1983 to 2005 between the central Sudanese government and the Sudan People's Liberation Army. It was largely a continuation of the First Sudanese Civil War of 1955 to 1972. Although it originated in southern Sudan, the civil war spread to the Nuba mountains and Blue Nile. It lasted for 22 years and is one of the longest civil wars on record. The war resulted in the independence of South Sudan six years after the war ended.

Roughly two million people died as a result of war, famine and disease caused by the conflict. Four million people in southern Sudan were displaced at least once (and often repeatedly) during the war. The civilian death toll is one of the highest of any war since World War II and was marked by a large number of human rights violations. These include slavery and mass killings. The conflict officially ended with the signing of a peace agreement in January 2005.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

.

So are Moors Black now?

---

quote:

---

CABLE MESSAGES.
MOROCCO.

THE RIFFIAN PIRATES.

RANSOMING PRISONERS.

AN ENGLISHMAN CAPTURED.

LONDON, November 15.

The Italian Government has offered to pay
the chiefs of the Riffian pirates frequenting
the coast of Morocco 30,000 dollars as ransom
foe Italian prisoners recently captured by
them, and the Portuguese Government wilt
eupplement this, som by several thousand
dollars in return for tho release oi their
?objects.

Mr. K. Cunninghams Graham, tata Radical
Bomber for North-vest Lanarkshire in the
British Hooso of Commoaa, who was recently
arrested whilo travellins >? tua Atlas Moun
tains, betweea Morocco, and Tunis, and im
prisoned for 10 days, has now been released.

---

quote:

---

AFRICAN AFFAIRS.

RIFFIAN PIRATES.

THEIR STRONGHOLD
CAPTURED.

London, Nov. 23.

Tfaeeipedition which was recently
orranised at tbe instance of Spain
ax J Italy has captured Arkns, the
strc*glio!d of the Riffs, or Rinian
pirates, in Morocco. The defenders
of this fortified position were com
pletely routed.
[From early tiiues the coast of Morocco
baa been infested vitb Moorish pirates, and,
in the past, mani &c Englishman iiac been
captured and Le'd for ransom, while
wf.icen have bece tt,\& to tbe petty Sultans.
Of lisle yean, tL= 3t«lians and {Spaniards
have suffered n;cr-l. tbeir Email asd poorly
defended vessels f aiiir.g an caay prey to the
fiery Hi&s. litcfc^tly Spain and Italy
offered large tun;; ice the rescue of Spanish
and Italian priscnerr, of whom some thou
sands are fce'd ly the pirates. ArkuB is
some diitar.rc inlLud, in a range of hills
kcoRii as 1-1 Ariu, to which the Bifis have I
retired wiib their cjptnres when in danger j
from the offended pon er«.]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

quote:

---

"The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations (Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

.

So are Moors Black now?

---

Some of them were, but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black. It's a shame that we Africans kill ourselves as frequently and as cruelly as we do, but we cannot be accused of brutalizing and enslaving any other race. That has NEVER happened.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

.

So are Moors Black now?

---

Some of them were, but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black. It's a shame that we Africans kill ourselves as frequently and as cruelly as we do, but we cannot be accused of brutalizing and enslaving any other race. That has NEVER happened.

---

Bull crap. The evidence says different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

There were no eurasian coming from the Iberia, its the other way around. Africans moved into the Iberia, then later that population was reduced, which shifted the demographics. Kel carry the highest frequency of the Berber gene, which is logic.

quote:

---

"The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations (Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms

---

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied


http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2010.490241 

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Bull crap. The evidence says different.

What "evidence"? The Barbary pirates were not black and no historian will help you out with that, so good luck. The Barbary pirates were from the North African coast and the populations of the coast are not black, so deal with it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha:

Doxie, now you know what it's like to deal with a knuckle-head, who keeps REPEATING the SAME nonsense, regardless of EVIDENCE to the contrary.

He,he,he,he:

JUST LIKE YOU DO!!!!

Poetic justice.

---

So says the loon.
 

---

Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
'the populations of the coast are not black, so deal with it.'

......oh boy.....
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Ya, we're getting some real winners these days.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Anyone who bothered to read the bumpede Moor
threads knows these aren't Moors. It's very trying
to rehash this stuff instead of breaking new ground.


 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Break new ground????

Well, most of them can read, that's a start. Perhaps in a few years, some might accidentally stumble onto something new.
But break new ground, as in actual research - out of the question!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Moderns aren't medievals
nor Renaissance art photos
whether either near white or
black. Moorish identity has
nothing to do with all N Afrs
throughout all time.

The only admissible moderns
are Mauritanians. They call
themselves Maurs. They
live in the land of Almorabites
and descend from the tribes of
the Sanhadja Confederation.
They are neither white nor
near white in complexion
like people are on fringe
of the Mediterranean.
They are not 'red ears.'

Ancient Mauretania was in
what's today's northern Morocco
and northern west to central Algeria.

Mauretania was named for
the colour of its inhabitant's
skin. Plug the Greek word Μαύρος
into Google's translator. Don't be
surprised when nigger pops up.

After 711 and centuries of occupation
with miscegenation and conversion
Europe wound up with
* Black a Moors ('black as a Moor)
* Tawny Moors
* White Moors (used as an insult)

Eventually Europeans came to call
any dark-skinned Muslims Moor
as witness even Filipino Moro's.

These are etymology and anthropology facts.
Beliefs are for religion.

Seriously, review all the Moor threads
that is I mean if learning is truly the goal.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No, the Moors were not even near white.


Originally posted October 08, 2011 by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melanophobe7:

---

.

Are you going to show us where those red bearded Eurasitic Kurds or whatever they are you posted are called MOORS or Moro

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No, the Moors were not even near white.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Remember that in the Barbary era white
Euros were selling their own people into
slavery in the Americas. As late as 1858
4000 white orphans were sold, ironically
enough, inside the Free Church in New
York.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

There were no eurasian coming from the Iberia, its the other way around. Africans moved into the Iberia, then later that population was reduced, which shifted the demographics. Kel carry the highest frequency of the Berber gene, which is logic.

quote:

---

"The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations (Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms

---

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied


http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2010.490241 

---

Where did the light-skinned people in North Africa come from if not Iberia? Western Asia? Thanks for that piece, I'll give it a read.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kdolo:
"I believe that these light-skinned Berbers streamed into Africa from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago and adopted the Berber language, culture and customs from black Berbers"

What you believe is irrelevant.
Any Facts ?

---

You mean other than the fact that the Numidian Berbers from thousands of years ago look like the coastal Berbers of today? The Berber language originated in East Africa and so tribes like the Tuareg (who share a common ancestry with Beja) must have transmitted that language to Eurasians coming in from the Iberian Peninsula.

---

.

So are Moors Black now?

---

Some of them were, but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black. It's a shame that we Africans kill ourselves as frequently and as cruelly as we do, but we cannot be accused of brutalizing and enslaving any other race. That has NEVER happened.

---

Bull crap. The evidence says different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What era?

Importation of European women into
Maurusia goes back to the chalcolithic
with the cordial pottery made by Iberian
women. Cardinal workshops were found
in the farthest north of today's Morocco.

Presumably Euro mtDNA goes back to
the final few millennia of the Maurusian
late and epi paleolithic eras.

That far back we really have no idea of
Maurusian colour. The first written notice
of their complexion is by Greeks and is
after Rome city is founded. By that time
Tamazight had moved up from the Gharb
Darfur region of Sudan where it originated
per Behrens and Williamson.

By the time of USA Barbary War Med N Afr
was not predominantly black or heavily
dark-skinned though they were still
numerous until the 19th century,
ttbomr.

Remember that in the Barbary era white
Euros were selling their own people into
slavery in the Americas. As late as 1858
4000 white orphans were sold, ironically
enough, inside the Free Church in New
York.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Troll Patrol,

These people were still Black, still Negros like you,still of your race. Therefore ohh White people hating invader you are every bit as responsible. You like holding all Whites responsible for atrocities committed by some Whites in the past well two can play that game hehehehe.

---

No they were not, you desperate idiot. They were Arabs and light skin Berbers and I showed you the people from where the Barbary pirates were stationed and they're not black. Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD and they started enslaving you in the 15th century.

We lost millions of square kilometers of Africa to the Arab invaders and yet you think that we should feel responsible for their crimes? You still haven't provided the requested evidence. Where is your evidence that black people enslaved Europeans for a thousand years? Where is your evidence that Barbary pirates were black? Provide evidence from reputable sources. And no, your Neo-Nazi websites don't count.


These are Barbary pirate:

A Barbary pirate, Pier Francesco Mola 1650



Stephen Decatur boarding a Tripolitan gunboat during a naval engagement, 3 August 1804



Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.




Picking the favorite -- Giulio Rosati (1858-1917)



Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, the last of the Barbary Pirates.



Painting of a 19th Century Arab slave market. 1884




Painting shows a young pre-teen white European male chained and lead with a black slave to the slave market by their Muslim slave captors.





Slave Fabbio Fabbi 1861-1946



 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Originally posted August 18, 2013 01: by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Applying Myres2011 Balareque2010 & Cruciani2010
to Bekada2013 re her Algerian M412 S116 U152

Myres gives coalescences for two
- M412 __ 8870±1708
- S116 __ 8630±1529

and Cruciani for one
- U152 __ 7.4k (95% CI 5.3k-10.2k).

These dates are all European and Neolithic.
Balaresque goes into the u-sat diversities
but is irrelevant for ascertaining Algeria
vs SW Europe relative age estimate.

From what's available to me the three came
into Algeria sometime after or near the end
of the Neolithic on up to colonial/modern eras.
Which is pretty much what Troll Patrol says.
Nothing indicates no earlier than colonial/modern as per Xyyman.

---

code:

---

 sorry, chart won't xfer, will bump old thread

     |

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

@Sage. I am shooting the breeze while you post that new data on Berbers.

---

Shoot on brother.

Meanwhile a little Maurusian geography and
climate so we can place Maurusia in context.
Note that the Maurusian is limited to a strip
of land between the Atlas and the Atlantic
Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.




20k 14C years ago Africans of littoral Maghreb became
shielded from the west, central, and southern Africans
by the Last Glacial Arid Maximum climate. Note that the
tiny watermelon colored strip labeled Mediterranean scrub
at the very tippy top on this map is the Maurusian industry's
precise location.



This and following climate and geography maps show
when and where spread and migration was facile or
restrictive for gene flow in a respective era of time.

1000 miles of desert buffered the Maghreb proper from
all the rest of Africa in the Last Glacial Arid Maximum.

Some scholars posit Libya and Egypt had cultural
industries similar in aspect to the Maurusian, iirc.

Communication to or from Libya and Egypt via the Mediterranean
coast wasn't easy. Likewise for the Atlantic coast south all the
way to Guinea. The Maghreb had a tiny strip of scrubland at the
very north with semi-desert conditions from there to the Atlas
having extreme desert at its southern foot.

Ocean heights were lower in the LGAM so Iberia was very easy
to get to (maybe Pantelleria on to Sicily too) when compared
to south or eastward flow. No one had to wait for glaciers to
melt to go back and forth across the straits of Gibraltar thus
no end of LGM refugium exit to the Maghreb which was readily
accessible throughout the entire LGM.

Any African phenotypes, cultures, and genes in LGAM Maghreb were
there since before 20k including Kefi's overlooked L mtDNA clades.



A caveat on Kefi is that the remains she assessed were from nearer the end of the Maurusian, circa 11-12k.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Something interesting in Ennafaa 2009 points
to a possibility of indigenous H subclades
[QUOTE]
... a high female permeability has been deduced
from several mitochondrial studies that pointed
to the existence of an important maternal Iberian
input on North Africa [15,19]. Although there is no
archaeological evidence to justify such a demic
flow from Iberia to North Africa, based on the
phylogeographic range, comparative gene diversity
and ages of several mitochondrial haplogroups such
as V, H1, H3, and U5b1b [25,37,26], the presence of
these haplogroups in North Africa is thought to be
the result of a southward expansion of Palaeolithic
hunter-gatherers from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge
after the Last Glacial Maximum. In fact, coalescence
ages for H1 and H3 subclades estimated in this study
are in good agreement with those previously published
and are congruent with these expansions.

---

quote:

---

Coalescence ages for H1 (11 ± 2 ky) and H3 (11 ± 4 ky)
in North Africa point to the possibility of a late
Palaeolithic settlement for these lineages similar
to those found for other mtDNA haplogroups.
. . .
Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes
based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled
additional mtDNA differences between North African
and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older
mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously
thought.

---

code:

---

_________ H1 ____________________________ H3
_________ freq diversity coalescence ____ freq diversity coalescence
NAfrica__ 42%_ 67 ± 6 __ 11,366 ± 2,354__ 13%_ 74 ± 9___ 10,866 ± 4,107
Iberia___ 45%_ 75 ± 3 __ 14,201 ± 2,984__ 16%_ 65 ± 6___ 10,342 ± 2,634

---

Yet 76% of North African H lineages are unique.

If women were the potters cardial pottery seems
an archaeolocical indicator for Neolithic Iberian
phenotype females setting up shop immediately
across the opposite strait.


 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Troll Patrol,

These people were still Black, still Negros like you,still of your race. Therefore ohh White people hating invader you are every bit as responsible. You like holding all Whites responsible for atrocities committed by some Whites in the past well two can play that game hehehehe.

---

Ok, so you are now responsible for every hideous crime and atrocities "a white" has committed.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
sudaniya - you have become a bother. Please join DD'eDeN in the corner - WITH the conical hat.



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.

The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.

The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader

---

You are entertaining questions in the absence of evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that any black North African population engaged in the enslavement of Europeans or anybody else on the offensive in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

What are called the "Barbary pirates" is restricted to specific regions and societies along of the coast of North Africa, specific to to the period from the 16th until the 19th century.

The question is did black North Africans enslave Europeans in North Africa. It's much broader

---

You are entertaining questions in the absence of evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that any black North African population engaged in the enslavement of Europeans or anybody else on the offensive in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise.

---

Again the question is broader and you have added a new caveats:
" on the offensive""
in the services of a State sanctioned commercial enterprise. "


I didn't ask about "on the offensive" or " state sanctioned"
or "commercial enterprise"
and not limited to Egypt.

Excluding Egypt did blacks in the rest of North Africa have European slaves at any point on time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Those caveats are essential because they provide context. Ancient Egypt acquired the vast majority of its slave from West Asian war captives and did not raid for slaves from civilian populaces. There is no evidence that any black North African groups enslaved anyone outside the continent, so our hands are clean. Unlike the Europeans, we are not responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people from the four corners of the earth. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Sudaniya,

How about reading the books, "They Were White & They Were Slaves", "White Gold", "White Cargo", "White Slaves African Masters". Some of those books are about Whites enslaving Whites & others enslaving us as well. Sorry but Blacks were not innocent little angels who never bothered anyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Sudaniya,

How about reading the books, "They Were White & They Were Slaves", "White Gold", "White Cargo", "White Slaves African Masters". Some of those books are about Whites enslaving Whites & others enslaving us as well. Sorry but Blacks were not innocent little angels who never bothered anyone.

---

None of those books contend that the Barbary pirates were black. Disagree? Cite just one sentence from any of those books asserting that the North African Arabs and Mediterranean appearing coastal Berbers were black. I dare you. I double dare you.

Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.

Compared to white people, Africans have been angels in relation to non-Africans.
 

---

Posted by Nehesy (Member # 17252) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.

---

How dare you bring "YOUR OPINION" here without artifactual or textual proof?

Are you supposed to be somebody with special knowledge or something that trumps the proofs provided above?

Lucky for you, I'm in a better mood than usual.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:
Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why are people going along with Celticwarriores and her false claim that the Barbary pirates were black when we know for a fact that they were Arabs or coastal Berbers? Not one historian would agree with the assertion that the Barbary pirates were black.

---

Actually they were mostly Turks (during the dominance of the Ottoman Empire in North Africa), and/or European descent from Italy, Spain, Flemish, French,Greece, England, Germany, Hungary, Slavic areas, Black Sea, Britons etc.

---

How dare you bring "YOUR OPINION" here without artifactual or textual proof?

Are you supposed to be somebody with special knowledge or something that trumps the proofs provided above?

Lucky for you, I'm in a better mood than usual.

---

It's not "my opinion" , it is facts...Plus I really don't care about your mood... :The Barbary Pirates of Algiers , Libya orTunisia were mostly of Turk and European descent. In Morocco the rulers were mostly berbers or native Africans.

- "Les Chrétiens d'Allah" by Bartolomé (and Lucile) Bennassar ==> Best study about their origins

- "Les Barbaresques" by Jacques Heers

- "Captives and Corsairs -France and Slavery in the Early Modern Mediterranean" by Gillian Weiss

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^ MAURITANIE - Un Grand Chef Maure et sa suite (Soudan) - très bon état

MAURITANIA - A Grand Chef Moor and his retinue (Sudan) - very good condition

Sudan
1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, literally "country of the blacks" (originally the stretch of Africa between the Sahara and the equator), from sud, plural of aswad (fem. sauda) "black." In early use also Soudan, from French. Related: Sudanese.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

In Morocco the rulers were mostly berbers or native Africans.

---

Therefore these pictures are legit

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:

:The Barbary Pirates of Algiers , Libya orTunisia were mostly of Turk

- "Les Chrétiens d'Allah" by Bartolomé (and Lucile) Bennassar ==> Best study about their origins

- "Les Barbaresques" by Jacques Heers

- "Captives and Corsairs -France and Slavery in the Early Modern Mediterranean" by Gillian Weiss [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nehesy:
Most of the Barbary Pirates were former European slaves kidnapped in Europe or Christians '

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ MAURITANIE - Un Grand Chef Maure et sa suite (Soudan) - très bon état

MAURITANIA - A Grand Chef Moor and his retinue (Sudan) - very good condition

Sudan
1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, literally "country of the blacks" (originally the stretch of Africa between the Sahara and the equator), from sud, plural of aswad (fem. sauda) "black." In early use also Soudan, from French. Related: Sudanese.

---

Mauritania means "country of the blacks".

Dunce, you get the flow...?


 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Isn't there already threads on the Moors?


Most of them were "Black" Africans.
Golden Age of the Moors anyone?

For all the pictures of "Arab"/Central Asian looking ones, there are more "African" ones.




moors


Moors
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.

---

As with lamin, after a time of listening to nonsense drivel from a "Self" so-call African, one has to wonder if this African is really an African at all.

Note that this fool has just said that Arabs were/are NOT BLACK!

Would an African really say that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".

---

I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!

Stupid Bitch get lost.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".

---

I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!

Stupid Bitch get lost.

---

Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Arabs conquered North Africa in the 7th century AD, so they've been in Africa for over a thousand years... and it is these "Africans" in Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco that enslaved your white people in the 15th century. The "African masters" that they're talking about are Arabs and Iberian appearing Berbers -- not black people.

---

As with lamin, after a time of listening to nonsense drivel from a "Self" so-call African, one has to wonder if this African is really an African at all.

Note that this fool has just said that Arabs were/are NOT BLACK!

Would an African really say that?

---

I'm more African than you'll ever be... but then again, you absurdly claim that you're also partly black European. LOL! The Arabs [before the time of the prophet] were not black. There are black Arabs -- but these are Arabized people, the same way that the Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqis have been Arabized.

---

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/large.aspx?img=images/KhM/3896a.jpg

Head of a Syrian
KhM 3896a
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4906




http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/large.aspx?img=images/KhM/3896b.JPG

Head of a Beduin from Syria
KhM 3896b
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4907




http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/large.aspx?img=images/KhM/3896c.jpg

Head of a Beduin from Syria
KhM 3896c
TILE; NEW KINGDOM

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4908
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Also consider:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781444390537.ch7/summary

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IronLion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] ^ MAURITANIE - Un Grand Chef Maure et sa suite (Soudan) - très bon état

MAURITANIA - A Grand Chef Moor and his retinue (Sudan) - very good condition

Sudan
1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, literally "country of the blacks" (originally the stretch of Africa between the Sahara and the equator), from sud, plural of aswad (fem. sauda) "black." In early use also Soudan, from French. Related: Sudanese.

---

Mauritania means "country of the blacks".

Dunce, you get the flow...?

---

jackass, did you put up as caption or any link to the picture? No
Furthermore it doesn't matter what mauritania means, we are looking at a picture, it's self expalnatory
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Frontispiece from Thomas Pellow's slave narrative (1890)
his captivity began at the age of eleven when sailing abroad in the summer of 1716


Thomas Pellow (1704 – ?) was a British author best known for the extensive slave narrative entitled The History of the Long Captivity and Adventures of Thomas Pellow in South-Barbary…Pellow's chronicles his many adventures spent during his 23-year-long captivity (summer 1716–July 1738) as he was groomed from a young boy into an elite military slave in the Moroccan empire. Pellow's narrative gives a detailed account of his capture of Barbary pirates, his experiences as a slave under Sultan Moulay Ismail, and his final escape from Morocco back to his Cornish origins.

According to Pellow's account, his captivity began at the age of eleven when sailing abroad in the summer of 1716 when his ship was attacked by Barbary pirates after crossing the Bay of Biscay. Pellow travelled with his uncle, John Pellow, who was the ship's captain alongside five Englishman. Pellow and his shipmates were taken captive and delivered to Sultan Mulai Ismail of Morocco as prisoners. Pellow was one of the individuals handed over to the sultan, and consequently, he spent the next twenty-three years as a captive in Morocco.

____________________

Full text of "The adventures of Thomas Pellow, of Penryn, mariner, three and twenty years in captivity among the Moors

http://www.archive.org/stream/adventuresofthom00pelliala/adventuresofthom00pelliala_djvu.txt

I had several Moors and two Blacks for my
companions

The slavery of the times to which
we refer was dismal in the extreme. Compared with the
toil to which thousands of English sailors were put, the
life of the negroes in the Southern States of America was
a pleasure.

Sickness, which soon overtook the whites unused to
such toil in such a climate, was not considered any plea
for relief, and many a poor fellow worked under the
stimulus of the stick until he fell down, and was carried
oflf to die. They were beaten on the slightest provocation
or out of mere wantonness, and the most insulting epithets
hurled at the poor wretches, in any language of which
the drivers happened to have picked up a few words.
The daily toil over, they were housed in damp underground
cellars, or " Matamoras," or in open sheds exposed to
the rain or snow, which in winter sometimes falls to a
considerable depth in Fez and Mequinez, where ice an
inch thick is by no means unknown. Even there they
were not always free of annoyance, by the baser order
amusing themselves by throwing stones and clods of dirt
at them. "Kaffir!" or " Unbeliever," was about the mildest
word addressed to them, and as an Arab generally applies
this term to his donkey in the interval of whacks, the
opprobriousness of the epithet may be imagined.


I was, on some advices
brought to Mequinez from the mountain Ceedehamsoe,
directly again summoned to arms, and with the army
(consisting of one hundred thousand Blacks and fifty
thousand Moors) obliged to march thither ; for that Muley
Abdallah was there, and that he had there about him
a vast army of the mountaineers, which indeed we soon
found far to exceed our numbers.

Yet I did not think fit to lodge in the
town, but retired at nights to a cave about a musket-shot
without, where I had several Moors and two Blacks for my
companions ; and returning again at sunrising into the
town, where, as not altogether caring to rely myself on my
friends, I sought out an employ, and was hired by a baker
to carry his bread round the town to his customers, through
which means I got a sufficient subsistence, all this time
looking sharp out for a vessel ; and though I found several,
yet could I not meet with any so Christian-like commander
as on any terms to carry me with him.

_____


The Moors had, however, no great liking for Ransom or
Christians simply as slaves, though Muley ^^<=*p«-
Ismail, for ostentation's sake, kept great numbers about
him. Negroes were in every respect better servants —
unless the captive happened to be a skilled artificer — and
made no attempt to escape. This, it is needless to add,
the captured Christians never ceased to regard as a possi-
bility. Ransom was therefore what they were detained in
the hope of bringing. The wealthier only could usually
arrange for this being sent from home.

Christian slaves were numerous, and so
it occasionally happened that the runaway managed not to
attract attention. But if caught, the bastinado was about
the mildest punishment he could expect. In Muley
Ismail's day he would most likely have been tortured, or
speared, and his captors been compelled with cruel irony
to pay the Sultan for the loss he had sustained by the
death of so presumptively valuable a piece of property.

_______________


Though now inhabited by the poorest people, it bears
like many houses in that street the traces of former
grandeur. Over the alley passing under it is a Latin
legend : —

" Miserere mei, Domine : a peccato, probo, Debito et morte
SUBITA. Libera ME l.G. 18" —

and from a recess above the second floor projects the
efigy of a Moor, a black naked man, with a turban and
necklace of beads. This was evidently the notion enter-
tained by the Scottish artist of 1618 regarding an African
potentate belonging to the same race as Othello, who even
yet, with a realism to which ethnology lends no coun-
tenance, is represented by a negroised personage. The
tradition attaching to this building is, that early in the
reign of James L, a Scottish girl having bean captured by
a Sallee Rover, became a favourite with the then Emperor
of Morocco. Desirous of utilizing her influence for the
benefit of her brother, she sent for him, and he, proving

___

This short way of marrying his guards the Emperor
frequently put in practice, by often ordering great numbers
of people before him, whom he marries without any more
ceremony than pointing to the man and woman and
saying, " Hadi yi houd Hadi," that is to say, " That take
That; " upon which the loving pair join together, and march
off as firmly noosed as if they had been married by a Pope.
He always yokes his best complexioned subjects to a black
helpmate, and the fair lady must take up with a negro.
But the Moors in general, who are not married by the
Emperor's command, use a great deal of ceremony about it.

I went out immediately to them and asked what
they wanted. They told me, to buy the black by my side ;
and finding them to be very eager for a purchase, I seemed
altogether as indifferent and unwilling about it, by which
I screwed them at last to forty gold ducats.

______

The rise of Muley Ismail — His character a mixture of vice and virtue
and piety and cruelty....

The manner of his eating did not differ from the
ordinary Moors. His other travelling utensils were two or
three guns, a sword or two, and two lances, because one
broke once as he was murdering. Both the swords and
lances were carried with their points upwards. These
were all carried by lusty fellows ; his boys carried short
Brazil sticks, knotted cords for whipping, a change of
clothes to shift when bloody, and a hatchet, two of which
he took in a Portuguese ship, and the first time they were
brought to him, killed a negro without any provocation, to
try if they were good.

Although the natives of his dominions are whites, yet
they are not so much esteemed by him as the blacks and
the copper-coloured, to whom he commits the guard of his
person, and was so fond of their breed, that he took care
to mix them himself, by matching them to the best-com-
plexioned of his female subjects."


Thus he took care to lay the foundation of his tawny
nurseries, to supply his palace as he wanted, into which
they were admitted very young, are taught to worship and
obey that successor of their Prophet, and being nursed in
blood from their infancy, become the executioners and
ministers of their wrath, whose terrible commands they
put in execution with as much zeal and fury as if they had
received them immediately from Heaven.

Alcaydes trembled at the very sight of
them, and the Emperor seemed to take a great deal of
pleasure, and placed much of his safety in them, for they
surrounded him almost wherever he was. They are of all
ranks and degrees ; some were the sons of his chief Al-
caydes, others picked up by chance, or taken from a large
negro town joining to Mequinez,* which the Emperor had
filled with families of blacks and tawnies for his use. If
they were well looked and strong, they needed no other
quality ; some who had relations that were able were fed,
clothed, and lodged by them ; others who had not were
lodged in the outskirts of the palace, in great rooms,
where they pigged an hundred or two together. They
wore only a short and small coat without sleeves, which
did not reach to their knees ; their heads were shaved and
always exposed to the sun, for he affected to breed them
hard. Most, and sometimes all of them, were employed
in his buildings, where they took off their clothes, and
laying them all in a heap, every one took a basket and
removed earth, stones, or wood ; when they had done, he
ordered them to go to his Jew and receive so much soup ;
the next day they appeared gay and under arms.

He beat them in the cruelest manner imaginable, to try
if they were hard ; sometimes you should see forty or fifty
of them all sprawling in their blood, none of them daring
to rise till he left the place where they were lying, and if
they were discountenanced and out of heart at this usage,
they were of a bastard breed, and must turn out of his ser-
vice. I never heard that he killed but three of them, one for
a heinous crime, and two for hiding a piece of bread in the
* Close to the Jews' quarter, but now dismantled.

_____________


The principal officers of the Army of the Blacks assem-
bled together, crying out, " Long live the King ! " and
threatening death and destruction to every one who would
not acknowledge him. Hamet Deby went out from the
palace, to hear what they had to say. They told him they
were deputed by the Army of the Blacks to assure him they
were ready to execute his orders, and if necessary to shed
their blood in his service. The King was so pleased with
this deputation, that he gave these officers two hundred
and twenty thousand ducats to distribute among the Black
Army, and ordered that they should march immediately
against the Alarbes of the province of Duquela, who had
not acknowledged him.


___________


The second day I got thither,
and delivered my charge to Amberk Foolan,* a black, the
then Governor ; and by him the shipwrights were directly
ordered to work, and to be as expeditious as possible.

_____


I punctually
performed, we being all on horseback by four, and without
any hurry got to Mequinez in good season, where I found
Muley Abdallah at the head of an army consisting of
140,000 men, chiefly blacks, ready to march for Old Fez.

___________

(20) The Black Imperial Guard, p. 141.— The Bokhari—
so-called from Al Bokhari, on whose Korannic commentaries
they were sworn — deserve all the esteem in which they were
held during Fellow's time, though they are no longer the
backbone of the army, and by the formation of the "Askar"
or regular force of infantry, organized on a European
model, are, happily, incapable of playing the part of the
Turkish Janissaries or Koman Pretorians which in former
times made them so troublesome. They are, however, still
the Sultan's guard, and a fine powerful body of men.
Fellow, it seems to me, greatly magnifies the number of
the force. When they were most powerful, their headquarters
were at Mequinez, and they numbered from 13,000 to 15,000 ;
but they are now a much less considerable force. Originally
formed from the Sultan's hereditary slaves, brought from the
Western Soudan, their blood is now considerably mixed, but they
have lost little of the physique and courage of their race. In
all the engagements of the Spanish war of 1859-60 they
acquitted themselves like men, badly disciplined and infamously
armed as they were — and are ; and at Isly these courageous
negroes alone awaited the shock of the French. The Arabs and
Berbers made a wild charge, fired off their flint-lock muskets,
and then wheeled about, as their fashion is. But in Muley El
Hassan's opinion they were too much of the nature of a double-
edged tool, for they did not only form a bulwark to the throne,
but when things did not always go their own way were apt to
chop round and change the succession.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.

His personal slave corp can't be
compared to your everyday average
enslaver. The sultan explicitly used
blacks as his civil service. They were
responsible for much of the country's
infrastructure and after the sultan's
death were the throne power for
generations.

"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but
when things did not always go their own way were
apt to chop round and change the succession."

In plain language the succeeding rulers of
Maroc were puppets of these black slaves

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

what about the Moroccans such as Moulay Ismaïl and all his slaves
Were these Moroccan slave owners black? They are not Ottoamns

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.

---

Assuming that there is a primary source supporting his mother being a "negro slave" then he is as black as Obama is.
Obama is considered to be America's first black president.
So if that is the standard then a black ruler enslaved whites in Morocco.
The Western Sahara and the Frontiers of Morocco By Robert Rézette, 1975 says Moulay Ismael's mother was Saharan. That doesn't necessarily mean entirely a deep rooted indigenous African but I don't know what primary sources are on this. I didn't see it in the Pellow book but could have missed it.
Another book says his mother was a "negro slave".
I would have to see a primary source of the period to be convinced.

Below, Moulay Ismail's black guard described as Sudanese:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5l81hwFPvzYC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=






 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Textbooks on evolutionary psychology and biology cite the case of the Sharifian Emperor of Morocco, Moulay Ismael the Bloodthirsty (1672–1727) who was supposed to have sired 888 children. This example for male reproduction has been challenged and led to a still unresolved discussion. The scientific debate is shaped by assumptions about reproductive constraints which cannot be tested directly—and the figures used are sometimes arbitrary. Therefore we developed a computer simulation which tests how many copulations per day were necessary to reach the reported reproductive outcome. We based our calculations on a report dating 1704, thus computing whether it was possible to have 600 sons in a reproductive timespan of 32 years. The algorithm is based on three different models of conception and different social and biological constraints. In the first model we used a random mating pool with unrestricted access to females. In the second model we used a restricted harem pool. The results indicate that Moulay Ismael could have achieved this high reproductive success. A comparison of the three conception models highlights the necessity to consider female sexual habits when assessing fertility across the cycle. We also show that the harem size needed is far smaller than the reported numbers.

---

--Oberzaucher E, Grammer K (2014) The Case of Moulay Ismael - Fact or Fancy? PLoS ONE 9(2): e85292. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0085292

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0085292
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Please, Obama's mum is NW Euro.
Ismail had no NW Euro parent. His
father's impression portrait


The first place to look for Ismail's
mother are our own independent
minded historians like JA Rogers
to build upon what our previous
generations left us as inheritance.

https://books.google.com/books?id=JusKBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=muley+ismael+%22mother

Abbé Dominique Busnot primary enough 4 yr asz?

Beside the above reference we have
this from him on the progenitor

• As far as Moulay-Ismail, this is how Mulay al-Rashid was described at the time: "He is of middle size; his face is long and thin; his beard, forked and white, []his color, almost black with a white mark near the nose" - Abbé Busnot, Histoire de Regne de Mouley Ismael, Roven, 1714

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.

---

Assuming that there is a primary source supporting his mother being a "negro slave" then he is as black as Obama is.
Obama is considered to be America's first black president.
So if that is the standard then a black ruler enslaved whites in Morocco.
The Western Sahara and the Frontiers of Morocco By Robert Rézette, 1975 says Moulay Ismael's mother was Saharan. That doesn't necessarily mean entirely a deep rooted indigenous African but I don't know what primary sources are on this. I didn't see it in the Pellow book but could have missed it.
Another book says his mother was a "negro slave".
I would have to see a primary source of the period to be convinced.

Below, Moulay Ismail's black guard described as Sudanese:

" target="_blank">https://books.google.com/books?id=5l81hwFPvzYC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&[/qb][/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindovermatter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".

---

I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!

Stupid Bitch get lost.

---

Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.

---

No he is right, you are just a complete ignoramus at this point to ignore all the evidence and all the picture and murals depicting black moors, and large numbers of them.

And no the original peoples of the Arabian peninsula were most definitely black. There are even Black Arabs online that are saying this stuff too; so were the original Xia and Shang dynasties. And again there are even Chinese archaeologists and "WHITE EUROPEANS" saying that too.

---

You are a disciple of that nut Mike, so you're in no position to call anyone an ignoramus. I already conceded that *some* of the Moors were black but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black and no one has provided any evidence that they were.

The Zhou, Xia and Shang dynasties were not black and no historian worthy of the name would claim that they were. I know that there are indigenous black people in Arabia like the Mahra, Shammar and the Tihama, and so I'll have to dig a little deeper.
 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR
 

---

Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
 
'the Moors were black but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black and no one has provided any evidence that they were.

The Zhou, Xia and Shang dynasties were not black and no historian worthy of the name would claim that they were.'

Oh boy.....
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR

---

Hum, interesting.


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/user/404/recent
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Ordinarily a troll like Sudaniya would be banned.
But because this is an unmoderated forum, trolls like Sudaniya think they can get away
with trying to obfuscate facts and disrupting the exchange of knowledge and thinking.
It is up to each of us to confront this troll FORCEFULLY!
In time, like all the others, Sudaniya will go away.
 

---

Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mindovermatter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The Barbary pirates were not black and no one has provided an ounce of evidence in support of this nonsense. I provided a lot of pictures of what the Barbary pirates actually looked like and all people could do to counter me is to provide two un-coloured pictures from websites that peddle Mike's usual looney "history".

---

I'm sure that I am not the only one tired of this nonsensical go-round. You make a ridiculous claim, we refute it with proof. You ignore the proof, and go on as before. This bullsh1t ends now!

Stupid Bitch get lost.

---

Yeah, your "evidence" for that is just as flimsy as your "evidence" for black Chinese, black native Americans, black vikings, black Romans, black English, black Germans and so on. You really do require psychiatric attention. You're a loon.

---

No he is right, you are just a complete ignoramus at this point to ignore all the evidence and all the picture and murals depicting black moors, and large numbers of them.

And no the original peoples of the Arabian peninsula were most definitely black. There are even Black Arabs online that are saying this stuff too; so were the original Xia and Shang dynasties. And again there are even Chinese archaeologists and "WHITE EUROPEANS" saying that too.

---

You are a disciple of that nut Mike, so you're in no position to call anyone an ignoramus. I already conceded that *some* of the Moors were black but the Barbary pirates were certainly not black and no one has provided any evidence that they were.

The Zhou, Xia and Shang dynasties were not black and no historian worthy of the name would claim that they were. I know that there are indigenous black people in Arabia like the Mahra, Shammar and the Tihama, and so I'll have to dig a little deeper.

---

Yes they WERE YOU IGNORAMUS TURD BRAIN:

how do you explain this?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/798838/replies?c=17

quote:

---

The Banpo civilian used to be the hybrid of Nordish and Mongolian (like the Finn today).
We all know, the Banpo is the representative civilization of the Northern China Neolithic civilizations, we can infer, many other Chinese civilizations in that time were created by Caucasian or mingled people.

The Hemudu in Zhejiang is the representative Neolithic civilization in Southern China.
But after measuring the skulls detected there, it was extremely amazed that, they're of Negro characteristics!

---

https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/were-the-shang-dynasty-people-black/

quote:

---

Were the Shang Dynasty People Black?
Mike815 writes:

Yes, the Shang Dynasty people in Southern China people may well have been Negritos or maybe Melanesian types. That is well known.

The Australoid -> Mongoloid transition seems to have been later in Southern China and Vietnam than it was in the north, where it occurred much earlier, around 9,000 YBP.

In the South, the Australoid -> Mongoloid transition took place 2,300-4,500 YBP, and many Southeast Asians have not even fully transitioned but are still transitional types moving from Australoids towards Neomongoloids, that is, they are Paleomongoloids. There are figures on the Angkor Watt temples that look very much like Negrito or Melanesian people. These may well have been the basic Khmer type ~3,000-4,000 YBP.

---

Now the two guys saying this above me are "non-black" people, one is "white" the other one is a Chinese person from China. And that's just one tiny example of even "non-blacks" accepting and stating this stuff....


Then there is stuff like this:



















And the above PICTURES DATE AFTER THE XIA DYNASTY! YES IT IS NOW BECOMING AN ACCEPTED FACT THAT THE ANCIENT XIA AND SHANG DYNASTY PEOPLE WERE A BLACK NEGRITO TYPE PEOPLE! YES IT IS A FACT ACCEPTED BY THE MAINSTREAM!

GET OVER IT AND STOP SPEWING YOUR STUPIDITY AND IDIOCY HERE! PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO PLAY US FOR DUMB ASSES YOU STUPID TROLL!
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
The big one is a nice picture from the Harvard library (reading the address) - too bad it doesn't say who the people are.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Tukuler did blacks enslave Europeans on the Berber Coast?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.

His personal slave corp can't be
compared to your everyday average
enslaver. The sultan explicitly used
blacks as his civil service. They were
responsible for much of the country's
infrastructure and after the sultan's
death were the throne power for
generations.

"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but
when things did not always go their own way were
apt to chop round and change the succession."

In plain language the succeeding rulers of
Maroc were puppets of these black slaves

---

If the succeeding Moroccan rulers were puppets of Sudanese slaves could it be said that blacks were the puppeteers of the enslavement of white Europeans?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Which blacks do you refer to?

Define your Berber Coast by its borders.


What do you mean Sudanese?

Which rulers and for how long?

Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th
century cusp to enslave Euros?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.

His personal slave corp can't be
compared to your everyday average
enslaver. The sultan explicitly used
blacks as his civil service. They were
responsible for much of the country's
infrastructure and after the sultan's
death were the throne power for
generations.

"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but
when things did not always go their own way were
apt to chop round and change the succession."

In plain language the succeeding rulers of
Maroc were puppets of these black slaves

---

I'll put this more simply. Above you refer to blacks.

Did blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Blacks?
Not any particular blacks?
Please specify as did I.

Why the shift in goalpost?
Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???


Meanwhile, left unanswered:

quote:

---

Which blacks do you refer to?

Define your Berber Coast by its borders.


What do you mean Sudanese?

Which rulers and for how long?

Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th
century cusp to enslave Euros?

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Who was Moulay Ismail's mother.

His personal slave corp can't be
compared to your everyday average
enslaver. The sultan explicitly used
blacks as his civil service. They were
responsible for much of the country's
infrastructure and after the sultan's
death were the throne power for
generations.

"... they did not only form a bulwark to the throne, but
when things did not always go their own way were
apt to chop round and change the succession."

In plain language the succeeding rulers of
Maroc were puppets of these black slaves

---

I'll put this more simply. Above you refer to blacks.

Did blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Blacks?
Not any particular blacks?
Please specify as did I.

Why the shift in goalpost?
Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???


Meanwhile, left unanswered:

---

I intend the question to be the broader, any blacks, the entire Maghreb

Did blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Until you clarify and specify your question
per the points I queried it is much too open
ended to have any precise meaning and
would be used in entirely inapplicable
circumstances by yourself which is
exactly why you keep dodging:

quote:

---

Blacks?
Not any particular blacks?
Please specify as did I.

Why the shift in goalpost?
Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???


Previously left unanswered:
Which blacks do you refer to?

Define your Berber Coast by its borders.


What do you mean Sudanese?

Which rulers and for how long?

Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th
century cusp to enslave Euros?

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Until you clarify and specify your question
per the points I queried it is much too open
ended to have any precise meaning and
would be used in entirely inapplicable
circumstances by yourself which is
exactly why you keep dodging:

quote:

---

Blacks?
Not any particular blacks?
Please specify as did I.

Why the shift in goalpost?
Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???


Previously left unanswered:
Which blacks do you refer to?

Define your Berber Coast by its borders.


What do you mean Sudanese?

Which rulers and for how long?

Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th
century cusp to enslave Euros?

---

---

Did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

This is a straightforward good and reasonable question.

You seem to want to avoid it.

You are asking diversionary details now, trying to test me and so on. It's irrelevant.

What you are doing now is as if I asked if an apple is a fruit and then you asking me what size of apple am I referring to.
The question is irrelevant to the topic.

You start with the broader them and details come later.

I aks you is there any life on Mars and you say, ":do you mean that walks on two legs or four ?"

That is simply avoidance. Just say you prefer not to answer the question rather than going through these rhetorical games and testings.

If you want people to learn form this thread answer the question rather than using it as an excuse to show off tangental details on the region you know
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
In recent months we have evaluated the term black. So I agree that lioness needs to be more specific. Which blacks do you refer at?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Indeed, blacks inhabit all the lands
bordering the Indian Ocean though
none so exclusively as the bulk of
Africa continent.

I don't at all go for the 'West Africa
forest true negro is the only black'
19th century horseshit currently
floating and championed on ES
thus 'AEs and others aren't black'
neo-Hamiticism pseudo-argument.

We all know the Lioness' game.
None of we a want fe play it.
Tricks are for kids or fools
who fall for them.

Unable to clarify, specify, or qualify
her questions proves the Lioness is
unknowledgable on the matter that
bred her questioning of what I posted.


I have no doubt are learning from
posts that the Lioness wants to
counter with her trivial irrelevant
unfocusing questions. Yes, folk
are learning from them and the
related bumped threads. If not
then let them say so themselves
not illogical grandstanding that's
supposed to goad me into letting
the Lioness of the hook for fronting.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR

---

Hum, interesting.


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/user/404/recent

---

This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.

The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Until you clarify and specify your question
per the points I queried it is much too open
ended to have any precise meaning and
would be used in entirely inapplicable
circumstances by yourself which is
exactly why you keep dodging:

quote:

---

Blacks?
Not any particular blacks?
Please specify as did I.

Why the shift in goalpost?
Berber Coast -> entire Maghreb???


Previously left unanswered:
Which blacks do you refer to?

Define your Berber Coast by its borders.


What do you mean Sudanese?

Which rulers and for how long?

Did Maroc wait until the 17th/18th
century cusp to enslave Euros?

---

---

Did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

This is a straightforward good and reasonable question.

You seem to want to avoid it.

You are asking diversionary details now, trying to test me and so on. It's irrelevant.

What you are doing now is as if I asked if an apple is a fruit and then you asking me what size of apple am I referring to.
The question is irrelevant to the topic.

You start with the broader them and details come later.

I aks you is there any life on Mars and you say, ":do you mean that walks on two legs or four ?"

That is simply avoidance. Just say you prefer not to answer the question rather than going through these rhetorical games and testings.

If you want people to learn form this thread answer the question rather than using it as an excuse to show off tangental details on the region you know

---

Were those black people in the Maghreb not slaves themselves!? Moulay Ismail enslaved blacks, conscripted them and used them for his own purposes, so you can't even begin to equate this with the actions of Europeans that were under no duress when they enslaved millions of black people.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I am not writing anything in this thread for you.
I don't want to convince you of anything and
am quite happy to leave you wallowing in
See no evil Hear no evil Speak no evil
self blissful willing ignorance.

Anyone who can look at that clipping of the
Riffian seaman and deny he is a N Afr black
is beyond rational thought and conversation.



Ditto this picture postcard explicitly labeled Morocco RIF pirates.



Something else is going on beside trying to
ascertain composition elements of Barbary
Corsairs when their black element is like
I see 'em but I ain't gonna blieve 'em!
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Tukuler

What is the provenance of the postcard? I need the year in which it was released and a source affirming its authenticity. The fact that you could only get two pictures (first one indefinite) demonstrates that they were probably just forcefully conscripted just like the slave soldiers in Moulay Ismail's army.

This is what the Barbary pirates looked like -- a handful of "elements" notwithstanding.


A Barbary pirate, Pier Francesco Mola 1650



Stephen Decatur boarding a Tripolitan gunboat during a naval engagement, 3 August 1804



Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.




Picking the favorite -- Giulio Rosati (1858-1917)



Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, the last of the Barbary Pirates.



Painting of a 19th Century Arab slave market. 1884




Painting shows a young pre-teen white European male chained and lead with a black slave to the slave market by their Muslim slave captors.





Slave Fabbio Fabbi 1861-1946


[/QB]
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I don't suffer fools.

I give two previously posted sources,
one stamped NYPL, specific to RIF
Pirates and you come back with
Orientalist art and other pieces
having absolutely nothing to
do with RIF PIRATES.

Yes, that's trolling and I have no time
to feed trolls.


You don't know enslaved one's in
Muslim society at the time under
ddiscussion could and did own
slaves of their own and could
and did command freeborn
ppersons.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR

---

Hum, interesting.


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/user/404/recent

---

This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.

The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.

---

I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I don't suffer fools.

I give two previously posted sources,
one stamped NYPL, specific to RIF
Pirates and you come back with
Orientalist art and other pieces
having absolutely nothing to
do with RIF PIRATES.

Yes, that's trolling and I have no time
to feed trolls.


You don't know enslaved one's in
Muslim society at the time under
ddiscussion could and did own
slaves of their own and could
and did command freeborn
ppersons.

---

No, the pictures I provided relate directly to the Barbary pirates. I have no intention of engaging people that so desperately wish that blacks enslaved Europeans when it was Arabs and coastal Berbers that enslaved Europeans.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR

---

Hum, interesting.


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/user/404/recent

---

This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.

The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.

---

I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.

---

What is so "shocking" about somebody else having a completely different view to myself? This is the first time that I heard of that character, and I dare anyone to match my IP address with that man's IP address. Some idiot comes out and claims that somebody is so and so and people believe it without any evidence? Check my IP address from when I first posted on this site and then check the IP address of Thamm when he first started posting on ESR.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.

---

.
Lying crotch rotted Bitch or Faggot, whichever fits:

You were warned: yet you return here showing portraits painted by your fellow Albinos, intended to make pathetic Albinos like yourself feel at home in a Black world.

Doesn't anyone wonder WHY that one portrait of the (probable TURK) Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud is splattered all over Albino media?

It feeds the Albino fantasy of an Albino world, created by Albinos, for the COMFORT of Albinos!

The Sultan used whoever he thought would be helpful - REGARDLESS of ethnicity!

Here is another Moroccan Ambassador, lets see if Albinos make the same fuss over him.





Haj Abdelkader Perez was a Moroccan Admiral and an ambassador to England in 1723 and again in 1737. On 29 August 1724, he met with king George II and the Prince of Wales. His Spanish family name indicates his descent from morisco refugees.


Now get lost you pathetic degenerate liar.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Anyone wondering WHY the Moroccan Ambassador would be Turkish, may read the Wiki on the Sultan.

Note the fake Albino looking portrait supplied by the Albinos.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_al-Mansur
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, Moorish ambassador of the Barbary States to the Court of Queen Elizabeth I of England.

---

.
Lying crotch rotted Bitch or Faggot, whichever fits:

You were warned: yet you return here showing portraits painted by your fellow Albinos, intended to make pathetic Albinos like yourself feel at home in a Black world.

Doesn't anyone wonder WHY that one portrait of the (probable TURK) Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud is splattered all over Albino media?

It feeds the Albino fantasy of an Albino world, created by Albinos, for the COMFORT of Albinos!

The Sultan used whoever he thought would be helpful - REGARDLESS of ethnicity!

Here is another Moroccan Ambassador, lets see if Albinos make the same fuss over him.





Haj Abdelkader Perez was a Moroccan Admiral and an ambassador to England in 1723 and again in 1737. On 29 August 1724, he met with king George II and the Prince of Wales. His Spanish family name indicates his descent from morisco refugees.


Now get lost you pathetic degenerate liar.

---

You're an idiot, Mike. People should actually be suspicious of you because you make Afrocentrism look like a laughing stock. Your campaign to claim that there were black Chinese dynasties, black Vikings and black Germans is laughable and taints efforts to reclaim ancient Nile valley civilization as a result. You are getting in the way. Unlike you, I'm actually from the Nile valley and your inane campaigns put my attempts to reclaim my heritage into disrepute.

That picture doesn't help you, dolt. It shows an Arab man (not a black man) and so you should take your own advice after taking your meds. You really are crazy.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Say what you will, but the fact still remains - if you post again, you will be attacked again. Please leave the forum.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Indeed, blacks inhabit all the lands
bordering the Indian Ocean though
none so exclusively as the bulk of
Africa continent.

I don't at all go for the 'West Africa
forest true negro is the only black'
19th century horseshit currently
floating and championed on ES
thus 'AEs and others aren't black'
neo-Hamiticism pseudo-argument.

We all know the Lioness' game.
None of we a want fe play it.
Tricks are for kids or fools
who fall for them.

Unable to clarify, specify, or qualify
her questions proves the Lioness is
unknowledgable on the matter that
bred her questioning of what I posted.


I have no doubt are learning from
posts that the Lioness wants to
counter with her trivial irrelevant
unfocusing questions. Yes, folk
are learning from them and the
related bumped threads. If not
then let them say so themselves
not illogical grandstanding that's
supposed to goad me into letting
the Lioness of the hook for fronting.

---

Using your definition of black as you have been did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

That is what everybody wants to know.

If I ask when were camels introduced to Africa are you then going to ask me "be specific what country are you talking about ?" or "what is definition of camel?"
That is a diversionary game

Why don't you just tell me you prefer to not answer the question because you think I'm unqualified to ask it. That's your out
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Indeed, blacks inhabit all the lands
bordering the Indian Ocean though
none so exclusively as the bulk of
Africa continent.

I don't at all go for the 'West Africa
forest true negro is the only black'
19th century horseshit currently
floating and championed on ES
thus 'AEs and others aren't black'
neo-Hamiticism pseudo-argument.

We all know the Lioness' game.
None of we a want fe play it.
Tricks are for kids or fools
who fall for them.

Unable to clarify, specify, or qualify
her questions proves the Lioness is
unknowledgable on the matter that
bred her questioning of what I posted.


I have no doubt are learning from
posts that the Lioness wants to
counter with her trivial irrelevant
unfocusing questions. Yes, folk
are learning from them and the
related bumped threads. If not
then let them say so themselves
not illogical grandstanding that's
supposed to goad me into letting
the Lioness of the hook for fronting.

---

Using your definition of black as you have been did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

That is what everybody wants to know.

If I ask when were camels introduced to Africa are you then going to ask me "be specific what country are you talking about ?" or "what is definition of camel?"
That is a diversionary game

Why don't you just tell me you prefer to not answer the question because you think I'm unqualified to ask it. That's your out

---

To the people of ES there is no "stereotype black". Except for a few like yourself.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR

---

Hum, interesting.


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/user/404/recent

---

This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.

The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.

---

I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.

---

What is so "shocking" about somebody else having a completely different view to myself? This is the first time that I heard of that character, and I dare anyone to match my IP address with that man's IP address. Some idiot comes out and claims that somebody is so and so and people believe it without any evidence? Check my IP address from when I first posted on this site and then check the IP address of Thamm when he first started posting on ESR.

---

The shocking part would have been, the change from here and there.

Most of what that person wrote is false info. As I am responding.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Say what you will, but the fact still remains - if you post again, you will be attacked again. Please leave the forum.

---

I will be "attacked"? Oh my, I'm so scared that a nut will "attack" me. No, think I'll stay and no amount of protestation from our resident crazy person will be convince me to leave.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
Sudaniya = thamm1 from ESR

---

Hum, interesting.


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/user/404/recent

---

This is ridiculous! That idiot stands for everything I oppose. Do an IP check right now. I believe that the ancient Egyptians were black but he clearly does not. I don't believe that the bulk of Egypt's modern population is representative of the ancients, whereas that person does.

The only account I have on ESR is Nilotic and if you check the IP address (please do so) you will see that my account on this forum and my Nilotic account have the same IP address.

---

I know you have a different point of view. That was the most shocking part. But I'll take you for your word.

---

What is so "shocking" about somebody else having a completely different view to myself? This is the first time that I heard of that character, and I dare anyone to match my IP address with that man's IP address. Some idiot comes out and claims that somebody is so and so and people believe it without any evidence? Check my IP address from when I first posted on this site and then check the IP address of Thamm when he first started posting on ESR.

---

The shocking part would have been, the change from here and there.

Most of what that person wrote is false info. As I am responding.

---

It would only have been a "shock" if he and I were the same person. I want an IP address check for both accounts - with the immediate release of the results on this forum.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
[QB] Tukuler

What is the provenance of the postcard? I need the year in which it was released and a source affirming its authenticity. The fact that you could only get two pictures (first one indefinite) demonstrates that they were probably just forcefully conscripted just like the slave soldiers in Moulay Ismail's army.

---

One could argue that no blacks were leaders of the slave trade of Europeans in North Africa.
Now we look to the portrait of Moulay Ismail's father Moulay Al Sharif (Cherif ) ( "Muley Arsheid Zeriff")
His sons include:

Moulay Ismail aka Moulay Ibn Sharif (same name as his father but add, full name Moulay Ismail ibn Sharif)

and

Moulay al-Rashid his half brother

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Please, Obama's mum is NW Euro.
Ismail had no NW Euro parent. His
father's impression portrait

---

^ This is supposed to be Moulay Ali Cherif (Sharif)
(or "Muley Arsheid Zeriff") considered to have been the founder of the Alaouite Dynasty of Morocco.
He is the father. He died in 1659

the artist was a Czechoslovakian named Wenceslaus Hollar
his works number some 2740

The date of the print here as shown in the corner is 1670, eleven years AFTER Moulay Ali Cherif died
and one year after the artist Wenceslaus Hollar visted Tangier

In other words, it is the likeness of Muley Arsheid Zeriff is in the imagination of the artist
Tukuler knows this but didn't tell you


________________________________________________




^^^ This Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif second ruler of the Moroccan Alaouite dynasty.
Again his father is sometimes also called Moulay Sharif but no Ibn or Islmail

He died in 1727

A year before he died the illustration was made, the 1726 German Edition of

A Journey to Mequinez; The Residence of the Present Emperor of Fez and Morocco. On the Occasion of Commodore Stewart’s Embassy Thither for the Redemption of the British Captives in the Year 1721.

by John Windus

Here it is

http://books.google.com/books?id=v15VAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

^ scroll to the first page

Reise nach Mequinetz, Der Residentz des heutigen Käysers von Fetz und ...
By John Windus 1726


Windus was a member of the British delegation, and was sent in 1721 by King George I to the court of the Moroccan ruler Mulai Ismael, to conclude a peace treaty and to rid the English slave. Morocco, heavily involved in the piracy of the North African states towards the Europeans, held at that time caught about 1,100 Christians. Stuart was able to sign a contract in Ceuta, whereupon 296 Englishmen (including 25 captains) have been released. - This book is one of the first travel works that report exclusively on Morocco, with interesting observations about the country and people, life at court, etc. - "No work on Marocco had hitherto Appeared in English, with the exception of the meager, West Barbary '(1671) of L. Addison The description of the manners of the people renders the book, a curiosity ',. pronounced as it what by Boswell "(Cox). - The partly folded several times copper with great views of Tetuan, Alcazar, Meknes (2), a Roman temple ruin and a plan of Fes. The copper engraved portrait of the ruler Muley Ismael missing in the English edition published in 1725. - Gay 1294; Paulitschke 692; Play Fair 342: Cox I, 370 (English edition); Kainbacher 454 ("very rare").
Tags: Morocco, Fez, Meknes


This is a portrait of Moulay Ismail Sharif's half brother Al-Rashid died in 1672

http://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/collection_images/2008BU/2008BU5224_jpg_l.jpg

Moulay Al-Rachid ( "Cherif Muley-Arxid")
(died 1672) by Parisian artist Nicolas de Larmessin made 1661-1689
(I don't know if he visited Morocco)

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/

A collection of portraits of European,
Asian and African royalty, and French ministers of state and nobility. The portraits include:
'Tun-Min, roy de la Chine'; 'Aureng-Zebe, roy des Indes orientales'; 'Xogun,
empereur du Japon'; 'Idalcansi, roy de
Gouzarata ou Camboya'; 'Le Grand Negus - ou Préte-Ian, empereur des Abissins'; 'Le grand roy
Mono-Motapa'; 'Le Grand Mogul, ou l'empereur d'Indostan'; 'L'empereur de Calaminhan'; 'Le Grand Cam, ou empereur de Tartarie'; 'Mustapha Coul-Oglov, Grand Visir';
'Coprogli-Achmet Pacha, Grand Vizir'; 'Le Grand Cherif Mouley Sémein ou Ismael,
roy de Maroc'; 'Ioane Aléxovvitz [&] Peter Aléxovvitz Czars'; 'Cherif Muley-Arxid, roy de Tafilete,
Fez, Maroc...'; 'Alexei-Michaelovits, Czaar et Grand Duc de Moscovie'; 'Le grand
sultan Soliman, IIIe... empereur des Turcs'.


Larmessin's own portrait of Moulay Ismail

Le Grand Cherif Mouley Sémein ou Ismael; Moulay Ismaïl Ibn Sharif





European slaves in the Moroccan slave market




 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^Lioness, it is so good to see you and your fellow degenerate crotch rotted Albino Bitch sudaniya studiously discussing what are OBVIOUSLY CARICATURE Portraits.

Asshole bitches - real people don't look like that!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
real people don't look like that!

---

your comment makes no sense whatsoever, of course people look like that

There is information on the table. All you are doing is having an emotional outburst right now
And the portraits are not even generic, they look like individuals and the portrait by John Windus, Windus was part of a British delegation who visited the court of Moulay Ismail in Morocco.

So fall back, you are not up to this, find some tissues
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
real people don't look like that!

---

your comment makes no sense whatsoever, of course people look like that

There is information on the table. All you are doing is having an emotional outburst right now
And the portraits are not even generic, they look like individuals and the portrait by John Windus, Windus was part of a British delegation who visited the court of Moulay Ismail in Morocco.

So fall back, you are not up to this, find some tissues

---

No you stupid Bitch, REAL people do NOT look like this.





It is a "CARICATURE" done by lying degenerate Albinos like yourself, to make the subject appear to be an Albino!
 

---

Posted by Quetzalcoatl (Member # 12742) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
real people don't look like that!

---

your comment makes no sense whatsoever, of course people look like that

There is information on the table. All you are doing is having an emotional outburst right now
And the portraits are not even generic, they look like individuals and the portrait by John Windus, Windus was part of a British delegation who visited the court of Moulay Ismail in Morocco.

So fall back, you are not up to this, find some tissues

---

No you stupid Bitch, REAL people do NOT look like this.





It is a "CARICATURE" done by lying degenerate Albinos like yourself, to make the subject appear to be an Albino!

---

So, old paintings and drawings you like are "photographically" accurate, even if done by "albinos". But the ones you disagree with are Caricatures. Please define caricature and how it applies to this image?

A real "science" this pictionary.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:




It is a "CARICATURE" done by lying degenerate Albinos like yourself, to make the subject appear to be an Albino!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
So, old paintings and drawings you like are "photographically" accurate, even if done by "albinos". But the ones you disagree with are Caricatures. Please define caricature and how it applies to this image?

A real "science" this pictionary.

---

He,he,he,he:

I don't know why Albinos so love to go around in circles like this.


BUT I DON'T!

Tell you what, post a picture of a HUMAN of any race, who looks like this, and I will concede your point.


As a matter of fact:

Throw this one in too;

give yourself more of a chance.



 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
A caricature is a rendered image showing the features of its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way through sketching, pencil strokes or through other artistic drawings.

The features being exaggerated here are Caucasian features with creamery skin and soft flowing hair - straight or curly and perfect lips. It is the Caucasian Albinos fantasy image of what Caucasian Albinos look like.

Those of you who were here when Cass was here, might remember that he actually believed that those "Air brushed and re-colored" images of Albino women in magazines were REAL!

That same delusional thinking is why Quetzalcoatl so confidently made his statement.

They are all delusional nut cases!
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Channeling the thread: "The White/Albino Mans Fantasy World, and it's ramifications for non-Albinos".

Tell the truth, how many of you non-Albinos, looked at the pictures and though nothing of it - thinking they were real people?

See there: you have been "Conditioned" or perhaps better described as "Programed" to accept Albino nonsense and lie as the truth.

Recognizing it, is the first step in defeating it!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Anybody believing a beardless man
could in fact be the Muslim ruler of
Morocco, a sheriff no less is a
gullible sap.

The same said of ar Rachid is more
than applicable to the Lioness's
examples. As portrait art is
inimical to Islam no Alawide sat for
a portrait. They all at best were drawn
from memory. At least ar~Rachid's
matches written accounts.


Now its tedious going over this old
stuff again and again when we know
and already showed the stance and
attitude of the Lioness's portraits
are European artists blanks with
different faces completing them.

But if any of you have read her thread
on a book about Morocco you know:
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originallly posted September 11, 2013 by Tukuler:

You don't give it
but your source
http://www.sharifian-history.info/
reveals provenance.

quote:

---

"Orient-Malerei" Based On Western Imagery

regarding:

The Noble Sharifians


At first, the reader must be aware that in Section 1: "Reproductions of 17th cent. to 1873 published drawings", are in general imagery pieces of work which rarely reflect a close resemblance to the actual Sultan. The reason for this is easily explained – since such works (from the beginning of Islam to Sultan Sidi Mhd. IV) were strictly forbidden by law (Sharia). Further, it was impossible for any artist to see a Sharif on his own. However, when a Foreign Delegations was received at the Sharifian Court, then such a delegation was sometimes accompanied by an artist, (example: F-Delacroix; GB-Keatinge). During such an occasions the accompanying artist had, but a brief glance at the Sharif from far distance. All of what the artist saw he had to absorb and memorise in his head as otherwise he would have taken an enormous risk by making a sketch on the spot.

---

How is Isma'il described by contemporaneous writers?
Was he indeed a Muslim beardless sultan?


In light of the above quote compare and contrast these two of Mawlay Raschid who was Isma'il's brother.

-----------

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
I asked Tukuler if any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

He was scared to answer

so now I put the question to Mike.
Mike can you answer this so we can move on? It shouldn't be that difficult, not for me, for the benefit of the readership

Did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?
we need a yes or no before information bombs and pictures.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You can't goad me child.

When you show you can get to
the point of my prerequisite I
may myself answer questions
you can ask intelligently not a
'target' broader than a barn.

Besides, a little homework on
Maroc shows the founders'
degree of blackness and
that of their civil servants.
All that's left is to piece
together their regional
governors.

And wasn't it you who posted
the RIF Pirate clipping held by
the New York Public Library
and that picture postcard of
Ruffians at sea?

So no I'm not the simpdimp that'll
further your nefarious designs.

Get lost. Scram.Scat cat
or deal with the subject
matter, readers tire of
you Tukuler this Tukuler
that when it's facts they're
after, facts not twisted by
you.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


And wasn't it you who posted
the RIF Pirate clipping held by
the New York Public Library
and that picture postcard of
Ruffians at sea?

---

yes but my question was

Did any blacks lead the enslavement of Europeans anywhere in the Maghreb?

key word "lead"

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
Were those black people in the Maghreb not slaves themselves!? Moulay Ismail enslaved blacks, conscripted them and used them for his own purposes, so you can't even begin to equate this with the actions of Europeans that were under no duress when they enslaved millions of black people.

---

did blacks make the decisions to kidnap Europeans and enslave them or were they directed to do it by non-blacks anywhere in Africa?
That would have to include ship captains, high ranking naval officers, ultimately sultans
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
^Maybe the lioness should post pictures of the people the lioness describes as black right now. The lioness always posts comparative pictures. So we on this forum have clear sense what the lioness is talking about.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Clear sense?
The Lioness??

Hahahahabajhahahahahahah
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
"clear sense" = "the oakey doke"
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
I would correct everyone in this thread about the origins of the Moors and Berbers, but I believe @Tukuler is already doing a good job.

Most of us seem to forget that for the most part in history Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. The modern day Eurasian population of NW Africa mostly descends from expelled European Muslims and enslaved European females which mtdna supports. They were easily able to become more predominate than the black population similar to how Bantus became more predominate than the native Khoisan population.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I would correct everyone in this thread about the origins of the Moors and Berbers, but I believe @Tukuler is already doing a good job.

Most of us seem to forget that for the most part in history Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. The modern day Eurasian population of NW Africa mostly descends from expelled European Muslims and enslaved European females which mtdna supports. They were easily able to become more predominate than the black population similar to how Bantus became more predominate than the native Khoisan population.

---

This is logic.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
"clear sense" = "the oakey doke"

---

Lioness, do what you do best. Post pictures for clear sense. So everybody knows what you're talking about.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I would correct everyone in this thread about the origins of the Moors and Berbers, but I believe @Tukuler is already doing a good job.

Most of us seem to forget that for the most part in history Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. The modern day Eurasian population of NW Africa mostly descends from expelled European Muslims and enslaved European females which mtdna supports. They were easily able to become more predominate than the black population similar to how Bantus became more predominate than the native Khoisan population.

---

Boy I hate this:

You know NOTHING of the history of the region, yet you want to talk about who the people are.

First learn something;

THEN talk.

Here, read this!

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I would correct everyone in this thread about the origins of the Moors and Berbers, but I believe @Tukuler is already doing a good job.

Most of us seem to forget that for the most part in history Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. The modern day Eurasian population of NW Africa mostly descends from expelled European Muslims and enslaved European females which mtdna supports. They were easily able to become more predominate than the black population similar to how Bantus became more predominate than the native Khoisan population.

---

Boy I hate this:

You know NOTHING of the history of the region, yet you want to talk about who the people are.

First learn something;

THEN talk.

Here, read this!

http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

---

What the heck are you talking about???? Do you have bad reading comprehension?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Please, Obama's mum is NW Euro.
Ismail had no NW Euro parent. His
father's impression portrait

---

I've been going over this again, changed my mind on it

Artist Wenceslaus Hollar went with a diplomatic mission to Tangier in 1669. he was sent by Charles II to document it.
Most of it was landscape and etchings including the above portrait. The later etching were based on in situ drawings.

It is undoubtedly Moulay al-Rachid whom they were visiting. He didn't necessarily draw the sultan in front of him but he was there.
I believe the reason the name "zeriff" is there is because it is just he descendancy from his father

It's Rachid, no doubt in my mind, half brother of Moulay Ishmail



 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:


The Moors and the Barbary pirates were not black...These groups were Eurasians that made their way into Africa from the 7th Century,

---

---

He is partially right.

quote:

---

Shortly after arriving in Morocco, Pellow was forced to convert to Islam. He became a Muslim, learned Arabic, and was assigned a wife from the sultan’s harem, with whom he had two children. He then became a personal slave of Moulay Ismail and had the rare opportunity to experience the court of the sultan, witnessing firsthand his notorious cruelty.

[...]

Pre-Encounter

The Barbary Coast was a term used to refer to the coastal regions of North Africa, which included Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli, and Tunisia. The latter three were regencies or military provinces of the Ottoman Empire. The term ‘Barbary’ originally referred to the Berbers, a people indigenous to North Africa. The British used the term ‘Barbary’ to denote the entire area of North Africa, excluding Egypt. Moreover, the term was used to describe a wide variety of people such as Arabs, Berbers, Moriscos, and others.

---

Captivity and Encounter: Thomas Pellow, The Moroccan Renegade By: Mark Celinscak

http://groups.chass.utoronto.ca/gradart/journal/2008/2008_3_Celinscak.pdf

quote:

---

Barbary Piracy

A study into the effects of Barbary Piracy on England and Cornwall

In 1677 a Falmouth mother wrote a letter to the Bishop of Exeter requesting permission to petition the diocese for the ransom of her son, a slave in Algiers. [1] He was not alone in his plight, and nor was she in her quest to see him returned. Thousands of men, women and children were taken from their ships, and homes and churches on land. The perpetrators were from the Barbary Coast of Africa, and were known as Barbaries, Moors, Turks and Corsairs.

---

http://www.nmmc.co.uk/index.php?/miscellenia/barbary_piracy/
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
@ Sudaniya

quote:

---

Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers.

The Sanhaja, from which sprang the Almoravide dynasty (the founders of Marrakesh) were nomads who in the 11C conquered the desert and much of the region to the south of it for Islam; the Masmouda were quiet farming people who lived in the north and west and in the High and Anti Atlas mountains and it was they who gave rise (from out Tin Mal , S of Marrakesh to the Almohade Dynasty which displaced the Almoravides; the Zenata a sub-group of which the - Beni Marin- swept in from the empty region between the Tafilalet and Algeria to become the great Merinide dynasty, were tough, horse-riding nomads of the cold high plateaux of the interior.

---

http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/kingdom.htm

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

---

--Originally appearing in Volume V28, Page 967 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/YAK_ZYM/ZENAGA_SANHAJA_SENAJER_.html#ixzz3bwEgpvbW


A Thousand Years Ago In Mauritania - Kamal El Mekki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtYZPSdJRg
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

The original inhabitance of the North of North Africa are black Africans.

quote:

---

Zenata (Berber: Ijenaden) are a major old Berber ethnic group of North Africa. They were an umbrella-group encompassing probably hundreds of large linguistically or genealogically related Berber tribes in the north, center and east of Berber North Africa (excluding the Nile valley of Egypt). Zenata Berbers were the founders of several Berber empires, kingdoms and princedoms in North Africa.

---

http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Zenata

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^ I see nothing that says these people are of the Zenata tribe
The picture is from Senegal and this thread is oriented toward the pirates of coastal North Africa and berber tribes are nomadic and far from homogeneous



--Short History of Africa: From the Origins of the Human Race to the Arab Spring
By Gordon Kerr
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Laughable divisionary nonsense above. lol As if fighting each other will discredit the ethnic backgrounds and origin of these groups. smh

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ I see nothing that says these people are of the Zenata tribe
The picture is from Senegal and this thread is oriented toward the pirates of coastal North Africa and berber tribes are nomadic and far from homogeneous

[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/zenata.html] http://www.ephotobay.com/image/zenata.jpg

--Short History of Africa: From the Origins of the Human Race to the Arab Spring
By Gordon Kerr

---

This dumbo doesn't know that Tuareg are also found in Senegal. The Zenata, Sehanja are historically related groups to "Tuareg" and vice versa. lol
All have the same geographical origin.


Gourara or Ghurara Berbers of southwestern Algeria are considered Zenata

http://youtu.be/HaEYYX89SzI








Dance of the "Zanata" Berbers of the Adrar Oasis, Algeria.( Ibn Khaldun referred to the Zanata as the biggest Berber group in North Africa.)



Ancient civilizations in the region all had interference with one another, retarded racist.

quote:

---

Tuareg

Tuareg Berber-speaking pastoralists who inhabit an area in North and West Africa ranging from Touat, Alg., and Ghudāmis, Libya, to northern Nigeria and from Fezzan, Libya, to Timbuktu, Mali. Their political organizations extend across national boundaries. In the late 20th century there were estimated to be 900,000 Tuareg.

The northern Tuareg live mainly in true desert country, whereas the southerners live primarily in steppe and savanna. The Tuareg consist of confederations including the Ahaggar (Hoggar) and Azjer (Ajjer) in the north and the Asben (Aïr Tuareg), Ifora, Itesen (Kel Geres), Aulliminden, and Kel Tademaket in the south. The southerners breed zebu cattle and camels, some of which are sold to the northern Tuareg. Raiding of caravans and travelers was important in pre-European times, as was caravan trading, which declined with the introduction of motor vehicles. Droughts across southern Mauritania, Senegal, Niger, Burkina Faso (Upper Volta), and Chad in the 1970s and ’80s both reduced the numbers of the southern Tuareg and eroded their traditional pastoral way of life.

---

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Tuareg


This is more on your level, retarded racist:

quote:

---

The Sanhája or Senhaja (also Zenaga, Veledi Sanhája, Znaga or Sanhadja; Berber: Aẓnag, Iẓnagen; Arabic (from Berber): صنهاجة Ṣanhājah) were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.[1] Many tribes in Berber areas bore and still bear this ethnonym, especially in its Berber form.

After the arrival of Islam, the Sanhâdja spread out to the borders of the Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century, Sanhaja tribes were established in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja, such as the Kutâma, settled in central/eastern Algeria and northern Niger. They played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Sanhaja dynasties of the Zirids and Hammâdids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.

---

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhaja

quote:

---

ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

End of Article: ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER)

---

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/YAK_ZYM/ZENAGA_SANHAJA_SENAJER_.html


You really try hard. But you are just terribly stupid.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Well, what have we learned thus far?

That the Moors were indeed black!
 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Well, what have we learned thus far?

That the Moors were indeed black!

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[qb] Well, what have we learned thus far?

That the Moors were indeed black!

---

Were there black people who were not just conscript soldiers but were leaders in North Africa who directed the kidnapping and enslavement Europeans?


(I'm asking HidayaAkade not Ish Gebor)
 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[qb] Well, what have we learned thus far?

That the Moors were indeed black!

---

Were there black people who were not just conscript soldiers but were leaders in North Africa who directed the kidnapping and enslavement Europeans?


(I'm asking HidayaAkade not Ish Gebor)

---

You are a sad troll with no life.
You don't have anything better to do than create multiple accounts and antagonize people who want to bring to light African history.

We have proved Multiple times that the Moors were Africans. Using that fact, what do you think the answer is genius?




Moors
Moors
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:

You don't have anything better to do than create multiple accounts and antagonize people who want to bring to light African history.

---

So we have another liar here and she's saying I have multiple accounts. Stop spreading rumors and deception. If you can't deal with research and debate go away.We don't need groupies or cheerleaders
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Some Moors were undoubtedly black, others wern't

/close thread
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:

You don't have anything better to do than create multiple accounts and antagonize people who want to bring to light African history.

---

So we have another liar here and she's saying I have multiple accounts. Stop spreading rumors and deception. If you can't deal with research and debate go away.We don't need groupies or cheerleaders

---

What research, what debate? lol

I gave you facts, that's all there is to it. You can dance around them all day if you want to, it makes no difference.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Some Moors were undoubtedly black, others wern't.


/close thread

---

Your semantics is flaunt. Moors were black, and others in the empire weren't. They were just part of the empire/ dynasties. That doesn't make them authentic Moors in ancient/ classical historical ethnic sense. More so in religious sense.


https://translate.google.com/m/translate#auto/el/black

https://translate.google.com/m/translate#auto/el/moor

quote:

---

Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.

A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.

2. a fish, Agatharch.109.

II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc.
2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.

---

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.LSJ.360954






Thanks for exposing your disingenuous again.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
We have seen the tribal confederation and the spread and dilute.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008837;p=1#000000

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Division of Africa's coast

Geographers historically divided the eastern coast of Africa at large into several regions based on each region's respective inhabitants. In Somalia was Barbara, which was the land of the Eastern Baribah or Barbaroi (Berbers), as the ancestors of the Somalis were referred to by medieval Arab and ancient Greek geographers, respectively. [2][3][4] In modern-day Ethiopia was al-Habash or Abyssinia,[5] which was inhabited by the Habash or Abyssinians, who were the forebears of the Habesha.[6]

[2] F. R. C. Bagley et al., The Last Great Muslim Empires (Brill: 1997), p. 174.

[3]Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi, Culture and Customs of Somalia, (Greenwood Press: 2001), p. 13.

[4]James Hastings, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 12: V. 12 (Kessinger Publishing, LLC: 2003), p. 490.

[5]Sven Rubenson, The Survival of Ethiopian Independence (Tsehai, 2003), p. 30.

[6]Jonah Blank, Mullahs on the mainframe: Islam and modernity among the Daudi Bohras (University of Chicago Press, 2001), p. 163.


http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Zanj

---

This here was too funny, read the real motives and intentions by that hidious individual.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008966

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Well, what have we learned thus far?

That the Moors were indeed black!

---

---

Consigned.
 

---

Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HidayaAkade:

You don't have anything better to do than create multiple accounts and antagonize people who want to bring to light African history.

---

So we have another liar here and she's saying I have multiple accounts. Stop spreading rumors and deception. If you can't deal with research and debate go away.We don't need groupies or cheerleaders

---

A troll telling someone to stop spreading deception?


Sorry, I'm not going anywhere.
But do continue posting research (BullSh!t threads), and getting your ass handed to you on a weekly basis.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
^
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Maestro

You may wanna Sift this for gold flake
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Since this came up again I'm reposting from 10 year old
page 3 and hope this will redirect off-topic traffic away
from my Real Antalas thread on pre-Islamic Maurs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No, the Moors were not even near white.


Originally posted October 08, 2011 by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melanophobe7:

---

.

Are you going to show us where those red bearded Eurasitic Kurds or whatever they are you posted are called MOORS or Moro

---

.

The Hall of the Kings was named after the ten enigmatic individuals
whose figures are illustrated on the dome above the main bedchamber.
For many years the figures were incorrectly thought to depict leading
members of the Nasrid dynasty; till the 19th century the chamber was
known as the Hall of Justice owing to the fact that the figures were
thought to be courtroom judges.

Nevertheless, it is generally understood that the scene is a realistic
depiction of an activity that commonly took place there: a meeting of
dignitaries in the presence of the Sultan or leading members of the Court.

The figures, whose features depict venerable westerners, are seen seated
in traditional fashion and gesturing while having a lively conversation.
They are ceremoniously dressed, bearing swords and wearing belts and Nasrid
style turbans.

Souce: Council of the Alhambra and the Generalife
official keepers and preservers of al~Hambra in Granada.

In fairness, a few Nasrid rulers were predominately
Frankish in blood and sensitive of it they dyed at
least their beards to black. Muslim "Spain" was
diverse and cosmopolitan in many ways.
]

---

 

---

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