I believe there was black nobility in England but what I don't get is why they would involve themselves in a slave trade. Probably because of greed because greed is universal.
What about the East India Company? Indians were devastated during that time. Were blacks responsible for the bad treatment of Indians?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Welcome, here.
Probably because of disassociation and dispute.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: I believe there was black nobility in England but what I don't get is why they would involve themselves in a slave trade. Probably because of greed because greed is universal.
What about the East India Company? Indians were devastated during that time. Were blacks responsible for the bad treatment of Indians?
The Black europeans were nationalists, so they would have seen themselves as European, based on the countries they lived in. the only place were Europeans saw themselves as "white", was in the United States. Europeans were able to call themselves white, as they attempted to control African slaves and Black Native Americans. As a result of manifest destiny Europeans organized themselves around the idea of the 'white man', as they expanded across the United States exterminating Black indigenous populations and the mongoloid Native Americans.
Posted by Cedobor (Member # 22800) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Black europeans were nationalists, so they would have seen themselves as European, based on the countries they lived in. the only place were Europeans saw themselves as "white", was in the United States. Europeans were able to call themselves white, as they attempted to control African slaves and Black Native Americans. As a result of manifest destiny Europeans organized themselves around the idea of the 'white man', as they expanded across the United States exterminating Black indigenous populations and the mongoloid Native Americans. [/QB]
But blacks were of nobility at the start of the trade? They were in power
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Black europeans were nationalists
Name one
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Black europeans were nationalists, so they would have seen themselves as European, based on the countries they lived in. the only place were Europeans saw themselves as "white", was in the United States. Europeans were able to call themselves white, as they attempted to control African slaves and Black Native Americans. As a result of manifest destiny Europeans organized themselves around the idea of the 'white man', as they expanded across the United States exterminating Black indigenous populations and the mongoloid Native Americans.
But blacks were of nobility at the start of the trade? They were in power [/QB]
True. But they were British and traced their roots back before the Africa trade. Sadly, even today Black people do not organize around race.
Posted by Cedobor (Member # 22800) on :
So you're saying black people would have enslaved themselves?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: So you're saying black people would have enslaved themselves?
No. What I am saying is that Black Europeans had not come to Britain from Africa, since Roman times. As a result, they would not have identified with Africans.
Posted by Cedobor (Member # 22800) on :
So you're saying the blacks that were in Britain just saw things territorially?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Black europeans were nationalists
Name one
Egmond claimed that David Hume was a Black European. Originally posted by Egmond Codfried
In relation to this painting Egmond wrote that: "This portrait of Hume is an over paint. They changed only the colour; not its contours and he has the contours of a negro; a classical African."
Black European elites were very prejudice and they helped create racism towards Africans. A good example was David Hume who Egmond claimed was a Black European. Hume wrote:
quote:
"I am apt to suspect the negroes and in general all the other species of men (for there are four or five different kinds) to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent either in action or speculation. No ingenious manufactures amongst them, no arts, no sciences. On the other hand, the most rude and barbarous of the whites, such as the ancient GERMANS, the present TARTARS, have still something eminent about them, in their valour, form of government, or some other particular. Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen, in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction betwixt these breeds of men. Not to mention our colonies, there are Negroe slaves dispersed all over EUROPE, of which none ever discovered any symptoms of ingenuity; tho’ low people, without education, will start up amongst us, and distinguish themselves in every profession. In JAMAICA indeed they talk of one negroe as a man of arts and learning; but ‘tis likely he is admired for very slender accomplishments, like a parrot, who speaks a few words plainly."
.
There are some elite AAs who hold such racist ideas about other AAs of the underclass and ghettos who dwell across the U.S.A. We can never forget OJ, saying he wasn't Black, he was O J.
.
Posted by Suliman (Member # 22767) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: I believe there was black nobility in England but what I don't get is why they would involve themselves in a slave trade. Probably because of greed because greed is universal.
What about the East India Company? Indians were devastated during that time. Were blacks responsible for the bad treatment of Indians?
Same reason West and East Africans would capture and enslave other Africans for export.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Black europeans were nationalists
Name one
Egmond claimed that David Hume was a Black European. Originally posted by Egmond Codfried
In relation to this painting Egmond wrote that: "This portrait of Hume is an over paint. They changed only the colour; not its contours and he has the contours of a negro; a classical African."
Black European elites were very prejudice and they helped create racism towards Africans. A good example was David Hume who Egmond claimed was a Black European. Hume wrote:
quote:
"I am apt to suspect the negroes and in general all the other species of men (for there are four or five different kinds) to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent either in action or speculation. No ingenious manufactures amongst them, no arts, no sciences. On the other hand, the most rude and barbarous of the whites, such as the ancient GERMANS, the present TARTARS, have still something eminent about them, in their valour, form of government, or some other particular. Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen, in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction betwixt these breeds of men. Not to mention our colonies, there are Negroe slaves dispersed all over EUROPE, of which none ever discovered any symptoms of ingenuity; tho’ low people, without education, will start up amongst us, and distinguish themselves in every profession. In JAMAICA indeed they talk of one negroe as a man of arts and learning; but ‘tis likely he is admired for very slender accomplishments, like a parrot, who speaks a few words plainly."
.
There are some elite AAs who hold such racist ideas about other AAs of the underclass and ghettos who dwell across the U.S.A. We can never forget OJ, saying he wasn't Black, he was O J.
.
So if people exist that have these features and light skin tone why would somebody assume that the skin tone was over-painted?
Posted by Cedobor (Member # 22800) on :
quote:Originally posted by Suliman:
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: I believe there was black nobility in England but what I don't get is why they would involve themselves in a slave trade. Probably because of greed because greed is universal.
What about the East India Company? Indians were devastated during that time. Were blacks responsible for the bad treatment of Indians?
Same reason West and East Africans would capture and enslave other Africans for export.
There's the story that white europeans ran the slave trade in say North America with all the movies and history lessons on it. When did white europeans take over the slavery of negroes?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Black europeans were nationalists
Name one
Egmond claimed that David Hume was a Black European. Originally posted by Egmond Codfried
In relation to this painting Egmond wrote that: "This portrait of Hume is an over paint. They changed only the colour; not its contours and he has the contours of a negro; a classical African."
Black European elites were very prejudice and they helped create racism towards Africans. A good example was David Hume who Egmond claimed was a Black European. Hume wrote:
quote:
"I am apt to suspect the negroes and in general all the other species of men (for there are four or five different kinds) to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent either in action or speculation. No ingenious manufactures amongst them, no arts, no sciences. On the other hand, the most rude and barbarous of the whites, such as the ancient GERMANS, the present TARTARS, have still something eminent about them, in their valour, form of government, or some other particular. Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen, in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction betwixt these breeds of men. Not to mention our colonies, there are Negroe slaves dispersed all over EUROPE, of which none ever discovered any symptoms of ingenuity; tho’ low people, without education, will start up amongst us, and distinguish themselves in every profession. In JAMAICA indeed they talk of one negroe as a man of arts and learning; but ‘tis likely he is admired for very slender accomplishments, like a parrot, who speaks a few words plainly."
.
There are some elite AAs who hold such racist ideas about other AAs of the underclass and ghettos who dwell across the U.S.A. We can never forget OJ, saying he wasn't Black, he was O J.
.
So if people exist that have these features and light skin tone why would somebody assume that the skin tone was over-painted?
They woulld overpaint the figure to disguise his negro origin. But like the white man below who learned he was Negro, Hume has classic Negroid features. .
If that man is a negro and he is light skinned and the painting of David Hume is similarly light skinned then there would be no overpainting involved
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Black europeans were nationalists
Name one
Egmond claimed that David Hume was a Black European. Originally posted by Egmond Codfried
In relation to this painting Egmond wrote that: "This portrait of Hume is an over paint. They changed only the colour; not its contours and he has the contours of a negro; a classical African."
Black European elites were very prejudice and they helped create racism towards Africans. A good example was David Hume who Egmond claimed was a Black European. Hume wrote:
quote:
"I am apt to suspect the negroes and in general all the other species of men (for there are four or five different kinds) to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent either in action or speculation. No ingenious manufactures amongst them, no arts, no sciences. On the other hand, the most rude and barbarous of the whites, such as the ancient GERMANS, the present TARTARS, have still something eminent about them, in their valour, form of government, or some other particular. Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen, in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction betwixt these breeds of men. Not to mention our colonies, there are Negroe slaves dispersed all over EUROPE, of which none ever discovered any symptoms of ingenuity; tho’ low people, without education, will start up amongst us, and distinguish themselves in every profession. In JAMAICA indeed they talk of one negroe as a man of arts and learning; but ‘tis likely he is admired for very slender accomplishments, like a parrot, who speaks a few words plainly."
.
There are some elite AAs who hold such racist ideas about other AAs of the underclass and ghettos who dwell across the U.S.A. We can never forget OJ, saying he wasn't Black, he was O J.
.
I first saw Egmond Codfried post early 2000, on a Dutch forum. He was not well known or popular. He stated that he had access to dedicated libraries. He also stated that these people all had light complexion, not white but light complexioned and that stood with me ever since. When you read european history more careful and with an open mind it becomes logic these aristocrats had light complexion. Let me put it this way, it was the same ruling class in the Caribbean.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If that man is a negro and he is light skinned and the painting of David Hume is similarly light skinned then there would be no overpainting involved
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: For fun I took a pic of my own skin (arm), for comparison.
.
.
quote:
Wow, you scored 17 out of 36, intermediate
.
.
Fitzpatrick type von Luschan scale
I) 0–6 Very light or white, "Celtic" type
II) 7–13 Light or light-skinned European
III) 14–20 Light intermediate, or dark-skinned European
IV) 21–27 Dark intermediate or "olive skin"
V) 28–34 Dark or "brown" type
VI) 35–36 Very dark or "black" type
This is crazy, I'm dark brown not Black ???
I guess Doug was right it goes strictly by color not by African ancestry, so much for blackness as a basis for unity
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ classic
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ classic
Indeed.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
.
Can David Hume, be related to George Hume?
.
.
Jacobite Gleanings from State Manuscripts: Short Sketches of Jacobites; the ... By J. Macbeth Forbes
The Hume Family is our tie to nobility. I have charts going back as far as Sir Thomas Hume of Hume, eldest son of Sir John Hume. This takes us back to about the year 1000 which is probably further than most of us really care to go. Sir Thomas Hume was thirteenth in the direct male line from Crinian, Lord of the Isles, who was slain in 1045. This line, which is that of the Earls of Dunbar, is given in Paul's Scots Peerage III, Page 239. A rather extensive History of the Hume Family was put together in 1903 by John Robert Hume of St. Louis, Missouri. Most of the early line is extracted from that work. The Hume Family home was Wedderburn Castle in Scotland. It was here in Wedderburn that the Hume who came to America was born. This brief genealogy begins with George Hume who came to America in the early 1700s. Our American line went from George Hume to George Hume II to John Hume to Stanton Hume who married Sarah Breckenridge. Their daughter, Ann Elizabeth Hume married Lemuel James Patterson in St. Louis County, Missouri. This is the connection of the Hume line with my mother's Patterson line, and how they became a part of my direct lineage. GEORGE HUME
George Hume was born at Wedderburn Castle in Scotland on May 30, 1698. Together with his father, Sir George, and his uncle Francis, he participated in the Jacobite rebellion of 1715. The Jacobites were supporters of the Stuart claim to the throne of England after the expulsion of James II in 1688. They supported James son, Prince James Francis Edward. When the Stuarts were defeated in Battle by the English the Humes were stripped of their power and made to pay for supporting the losing side. George's uncle, Sir Francis Hume was banished to the colonies in 1715. Sir Francis died a few years later. After two years in prison, George Hume was deported to join him in Virginia. George's cousin was the Colonial Governor Spottswood in Williamsburgh. Governor Spottswood had remained loyal to the Crown and young George Hume was placed under his care. George Hume arrived in Virginia in 1721 and in 1723 became a royal surveyor. In 1727-28, he laid out the present city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. George served as a lieutenant in the Colonial Troops of Spottsylvania County under Captain William Bledsoe. He produced his commission in open court and took oath on September 2, 1729. This service will entitle descendants to membership in the Society of Colonial Dames and the Society of Colonial Wars. On February 16, 1727 George Hume married Elizabeth Proctor, daughter of George and Mary Proctor. Elizabeth was living in Fredericksburg in Spottsylvania County while George was establishing his reputation as a surveyor here. In 1731 George Hume received his commission as Deputy to the King and with a marriage dower of 2,000 acres he and his family took up residence in Fredericksburg, Virginia. From the ages of 16 to 18, George Washington studied surveying as an apprentice under George Hume in Fredericksburg. George, like all the Humes, was an Episcopalian and was a vestryman in St. George's Parish. George was King's surveyor for Lord Fairfax from 1743 to 1750 in Orange County, Virginia. The latter part of his life was spent in Culpeper where he was surveyor during the 1750s. George Hume died in Culpeper which at the time was in Madison County, Virginia in 1760. George and Elizabeth Hume had six children: GEORGE HUME JR., Francis, John, William, James and Charles Hume. The following is what I know of these children.
The Hume Family is our tie to nobility. I have charts going back as far as Sir Thomas Hume of Hume, eldest son of Sir John Hume. This takes us back to about the year 1000 which is probably further than most of us really care to go. Sir Thomas Hume was thirteenth in the direct male line from Crinian, Lord of the Isles, who was slain in 1045.
It's a good question. I had noticed that two that we had just been talking David Hume and this name George Hume comes up. . According to the book the original document says "black man" but the other listings don't say "man" after "black" and some of those other listings seem to pertain to hair color. Also in old English writing you will find inconsistent usage of the word "black" where they would use it to describe a Europeans classified as "white" today but who had a slight brown tint just less than pale skinned. In addition to this they would apply it in a different context to Africans.
The George Hume in the book is of rebel prisoners shipped from liverpool, 1745
The George Hume you referenced was living in Virginia at the time.
George Hume
But his father was also named George Hume , Sir George Hume but he died in 1720
So, why are we not addressing the African and Middle eastern and even far eastern populations in England during these early days?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: So, why are we not addressing the African and Middle eastern and even far eastern populations in England during these early days?
the topic suggests that there was an indigenous black European nobility that were not recent African or Middle eastern but were direct descendants of the first Europeans. Fencer says that the 1745 jacobite prisoners list I posted is referring to them
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: the white man below who learned he was Negro, Hume has classic Negroid features. .
Clyde in the video it says he's 60% European 21% East Asian & Native American 15% Sub Saharan African 0.8% Middle Eastern & North African
So you consider him to be a "negro" ?
If you watch the video he is not shocked at all by the 15% Sub Saharan African. It is just another of several ancestries they discuss
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: So, why are we not addressing the African and Middle eastern and even far eastern populations in England during these early days?
the topic suggests that there was an indigenous black European nobility that were not recent African or Middle eastern but were direct descendants of the first Europeans. Fencer says that the 1745 jacobite prisoners list I posted is referring to them
This is the topic:
"Black Britain, Transatlantic Slave Trade and the East India Company"
And both instances count here.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: So, why are we not addressing the African and Middle eastern and even far eastern populations in England during these early days?
the topic suggests that there was an indigenous black European nobility that were not recent African or Middle eastern but were direct descendants of the first Europeans. Fencer says that the 1745 jacobite prisoners list I posted is referring to them
This is the topic:
"Black Britain, Transatlantic Slave Trade and the East India Company"
And both instances count here.
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: I believe there was black nobility in England but what I don't get is why they would involve themselves in a slave trade. Probably because of greed because greed is universal.
What about the East India Company? Indians were devastated during that time. Were blacks responsible for the bad treatment of Indians?
^ this is the opening post, a nobility in England would be indigenous. It is not a thread on all blacks in Britain, you have to read the opening post not just the title
Posted by Cedobor (Member # 22800) on :
So would it have been the case that the people running the East India Company were black? What was the population in England like back then? Like percentage of different races.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: So, why are we not addressing the African and Middle eastern and even far eastern populations in England during these early days?
the topic suggests that there was an indigenous black European nobility that were not recent African or Middle eastern but were direct descendants of the first Europeans. Fencer says that the 1745 jacobite prisoners list I posted is referring to them
This is the topic:
"Black Britain, Transatlantic Slave Trade and the East India Company"
And both instances count here.
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: I believe there was black nobility in England but what I don't get is why they would involve themselves in a slave trade. Probably because of greed because greed is universal.
What about the East India Company? Indians were devastated during that time. Were blacks responsible for the bad treatment of Indians?
^ this is the opening post, a nobility in England would be indigenous. It is not a thread on all blacks in Britain, you have to read the opening post not just the title
Sorry, but I don't interpret the O.P. like you do.
Anyhow, Egmond Codfried was right about one thing. All these monarchs were seen as light brown complexioned people. This is what he said early 2000's.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Anyhow, Egmond Codfried was right about one thing. All these monarchs were seen as light brown complexioned people. This is what he said early 2000's.
why are you saying all of the European kings were light brown?
Egmond didn't even say that. He said they were black and the paintings were later over-painted lighter
James II of England
^ this is what you are calling light brown?
Charles V
^ this is what you are calling light brown?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: So would it have been the case that the people running the East India Company were black? What was the population in England like back then? Like percentage of different races.
Ish, try to do something useful, see if you can answer this
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.
Can David Hume, be related to George Hume?
quote:
THE HUME FAMILY
The Hume Family is our tie to nobility. I have charts going back as far as Sir Thomas Hume of Hume, eldest son of Sir John Hume. This takes us back to about the year 1000 which is probably further than most of us really care to go. Sir Thomas Hume was thirteenth in the direct male line from Crinian, Lord of the Isles, who was slain in 1045.
It's a good question. I had noticed that two that we had just been talking David Hume and this name George Hume comes up. . According to the book the original document says "black man" but the other listings don't say "man" after "black" and some of those other listings seem to pertain to hair color. Also in old English writing you will find inconsistent usage of the word "black" where they would use it to describe a Europeans classified as "white" today but who had a slight brown tint just less than pale skinned. In addition to this they would apply it in a different context to Africans.
The George Hume in the book is of rebel prisoners shipped from liverpool, 1745
The George Hume you referenced was living in Virginia at the time.
But his father was also named George Hume , Sir George Hume but he died in 1720
Stop making stuff up . The Jacobite rebellion took place in 1715, not 1745.
[ 31. July 2017, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ I took out the stuff already posted in the thread
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.
.
^ Clyde, did you happen to read the top of this document where it mentions the year?
wikipedia:
Jacobite rising of 1745
The Jacobite rising of 1745 "The Year of Charles") was the attempt by Charles Edward Stuart to regain the British throne for the exiled House of Stuart. The rising occurred during the War of the Austrian Succession, when most of the British Army was on the European continent. Charles Edward Stuart, commonly known as "Bonnie Prince Charlie" or "the Young Pretender", sailed to Scotland and raised the Jacobite standard at Glenfinnan in the Scottish Highlands, where he was supported by a gathering of Highland clansmen.
The Battle of Culloden, oil on canvas, David Morier, 1746.
George Hume, a 'writer' (or secretary) from Edinburgh, was a supporter of Bonnie Prince Charlie’s Jacobite uprising in 1745. He may have been a member of Ogilvy's Regiment. In 1746 he was recorded as being 30 years old, and he was one of 150 Jacobites transported to the Americas in 1747. But the ship was captured by a French privateer, or man-o-war, and the prisoners were all taken to Martinique. What happened to him next? Are you a relative? I’d love to hear from you!
I made a mistake
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Cedobor: So would it have been the case that the people running the East India Company were black? What was the population in England like back then? Like percentage of different races.
Ish, try to do something useful, see if you can answer this
Li, that is too funny.
Try to do something useful, see if you can answer the question people ask YOU, instead of always running away like a coward.
As long as you refuse to answer people properly, you should not make these disgruntled demands.
Posted by A Habsburg Agenda (Member # 21824) on :
Charles V, if he wasn't actually dark brown, totally identified himself as dark brown, what we generally call a proper black.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Anyhow, Egmond Codfried was right about one thing. All these monarchs were seen as light brown complexioned people. This is what he said early 2000's.
why are you saying all of the European kings were light brown?
Egmond didn't even say that. He said they were black and the paintings were later over-painted lighter
Charles V
^ this is what you are calling light brown?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Black nobility in England?
that is equivalent to saying white nobility of Nigeria
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
No its not sense there were Africans genetically in England before Roman time so some becoming nobility is not an impossibility and only white Nigeria would've been albinos.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: No its not sense there were Africans genetically in England before Roman time so some becoming nobility is not an impossibility and only white Nigeria would've been albinos.
I doubt that Africans would rather rule over a resource poor region like England instead of Africa
During the 1500s England's original African population was bred out.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
During the 1500s England's original African population was bred out.
when did it begin?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
During the 1500s England's original African population was bred out.
