Pigafetta mentions the presence of a negroid people in the southern part of the Americas before the arrival of the Spanish or Portuguese
"they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ... By James Burney pg 21
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Selk’nam tribe, photo Martín Gusinde,1919
The Selk'nam, also known as the Onawo or Ona people, are an indigenous people in the Patagonian region of southern Argentina and Chile, including the Tierra del Fuego islands. They were one of the last native groups in South America to be encountered by migrant ethnic Europeans or Westerners in the late 19th century.
Yaghan people, 1883
The Yaghan, also called Yagán, Yahgan, Yámana, Yamana, or Tequenica, are one of the indigenous peoples of the Southern Cone, who are regarded as the southernmost peoples in the world. Their traditional territory includes the islands south of Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, extending their presence into Cape Horn. They have been there for more than 10,000 years.
Books such as Ebenezer Sibly's Universal System of Natural History in 1794 may include some illustrations depicting indigenous people based on first hand observation and artists making the art on location but may also contain many illustrations that are based on hearsay , second or third hand accounts or as imagined by artists who were never at the location
Looking at the photo here the people look more Asian than African , DNA solves the problem
Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Four Tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia: Inferences about the Peopling of the Americas
Abstract
The four major founder haplogroups in native Americans were analyzed, including new data from four extinct tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia, to look into the relationship between genes and geography. A multiple regression analysis was performed using the haplogroups as independent variables and latitude as the dependent variable. The results show that haplogroups A, C, and D are significantly distributed along a north-south geographic cline. The distribution of haplogroup B, which is absent in northern North America and in extreme southern South America, could be related to other nongeographic variables, such as independent mutations in region V or an intermediate migration. The absence of haplogroup B in Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia also supports the existence of at least two different migration waves in the Amerind group, the first lacking haplogroup B. The Central American Amerind and North American Amerind samples are the populations that least fit the theoretical model. This difference can be related to the geographic characteristics of Central America and the existence of a sharp genetic boundary between the northern Na-Dene and the northern Amerind, respectively. In addition, a neighbor-joining tree was generated from the haplogroup data using the FST distance. The genetic tree shows that the populations are roughly distributed according to their geographic location. Therefore the genetic pattern observed is compatible with different successive migrations along the continent. The north to south direction of the migratory movements can be inferred from the mtDNA diversity data.
___________________________
Haplogroup A is believed to have arisen in Asia some 30,000–50,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup N.
Its highest frequencies are among Indigenous peoples of the Americas, its largest overall population is in East Asia, and its greatest variety (which suggests its origin point) is in East Asia. Thus, it might have originated in and spread from the Far East.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: 1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: 1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
This is because these people were killed off replaced by the people you post in your pictures.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [qb] 1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
This is because these people were killed off replaced by the people you post in your pictures.
When?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Selk’nam tribe, photo Martín Gusinde,1919
The Selk'nam, also known as the Onawo or Ona people, are an indigenous people in the Patagonian region of southern Argentina and Chile, including the Tierra del Fuego islands. They were one of the last native groups in South America to be encountered by migrant ethnic Europeans or Westerners in the late 19th century.
Yaghan people, 1883
The Yaghan, also called Yagán, Yahgan, Yámana, Yamana, or Tequenica, are one of the indigenous peoples of the Southern Cone, who are regarded as the southernmost peoples in the world. Their traditional territory includes the islands south of Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, extending their presence into Cape Horn. They have been there for more than 10,000 years.
Books such as Ebenezer Sibly's Universal System of Natural History in 1794 may include some illustrations depicting indigenous people based on first hand observation and artists making the art on location but may also contain many illustrations that are based on hearsay , second or third hand accounts or as imagined by artists who were never at the location
Looking at the photo here the people look more Asian than African , DNA solves the problem
Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Four Tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia: Inferences about the Peopling of the Americas
Abstract
The four major founder haplogroups in native Americans were analyzed, including new data from four extinct tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia, to look into the relationship between genes and geography. A multiple regression analysis was performed using the haplogroups as independent variables and latitude as the dependent variable. The results show that haplogroups A, C, and D are significantly distributed along a north-south geographic cline. The distribution of haplogroup B, which is absent in northern North America and in extreme southern South America, could be related to other nongeographic variables, such as independent mutations in region V or an intermediate migration. The absence of haplogroup B in Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia also supports the existence of at least two different migration waves in the Amerind group, the first lacking haplogroup B. The Central American Amerind and North American Amerind samples are the populations that least fit the theoretical model. This difference can be related to the geographic characteristics of Central America and the existence of a sharp genetic boundary between the northern Na-Dene and the northern Amerind, respectively. In addition, a neighbor-joining tree was generated from the haplogroup data using the FST distance. The genetic tree shows that the populations are roughly distributed according to their geographic location. Therefore the genetic pattern observed is compatible with different successive migrations along the continent. The north to south direction of the migratory movements can be inferred from the mtDNA diversity data.
___________________________
Haplogroup A is believed to have arisen in Asia some 30,000–50,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup N.
Its highest frequencies are among Indigenous peoples of the Americas, its largest overall population is in East Asia, and its greatest variety (which suggests its origin point) is in East Asia. Thus, it might have originated in and spread from the Far East.
Native Americans carrying mtDNA A does not mean that earlier Fuegians were not Africans. This results, from the fact that Mande speaking people carry mtDNA hg A.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [qb] 1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
This is because these people were killed off replaced by the people you post in your pictures.
When?
. . .The Black Fuegians mainly lived along the coast. They began to decline shortly after they came in contact with Europeans after 1624.
The Selk'nam and other Mongoloid tribes that lived in the Fuegian interior survived into the 19th and 20th Centuries until they were missionized. Most Mongoloid and African/Negroe Fuegians died due to contact with missionaries and European traders.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
Pigafetta also notes that they had men 125 to 140 years old, but that was in Brazil. Were the 9 foot tall giants of Patagonia supposed to be woolly haired?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
Pigafetta also notes that they had men 125 to 140 years old, but that was in Brazil. Were the 9 foot tall giants of Patagonia supposed to be woolly haired?
quote: The Brasílians are thus described by Pigafetta. “They are without religion. Natural instinct is their only law. It is not uncommon to see men 125 years of age, and some of 140. They live in long houses or cabins they call boc, one of which sometimes contains a hundred families. They are cannibals, but eat only their enemies. They are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly. They paint themselves both in the body and in the face, but principally the latter.
--A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ... By James Burney
Yes, it makes no sense to show an illustration of Fuegians of the most southern part of South America when Brazil is in the northern half of South America And if we are to look at Brazil one can go to the Amazon rainforest and there are people there such as the Yanomami who have only had contact with Europeans since the 1940s. Yanomami have also reported seeing uncontacted Yanomami, whom they call Moxateteu, in the Yanomami territory.
We also have Luiza woman
Luzia Woman is the name for an Upper Paleolithic period skeleton of a Paleo-Indian woman who was found in a cave in Brazil. Some archaeologists believe the young woman may have been part of the first wave of immigrants to South America. Nicknamed Luzia (her name pays homage to the famous African fossil "Lucy", who lived 3.2 million years ago), the 11,500-year-old skeleton was found in Lapa Vermelha, Brazil, in 1975 by archaeologist Annette Laming-Emperaire.
her Mtdna haplogroup is D1, and is ancestral to all Modern Mative Americans regardless of her unique skull shape. Then there is the corprolites found in the Paisley Cave they are 14,600 years old and the genetic signatures found in them are mtDNA A2 and B2 that are some of the founders haplogroups and are very common and ancestral to modern Native Americans
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
. Craniometric quantitative analysis and multivariate methods have determined the Native American populations. This research indicated that the ancient Americans represent two populations, paleoamericans who were phenotypically African, Australian or Melanesian and a mongoloid population that appears to have arrived in the Americas after 6000 BC.
The determination of the Paleoamericans as members of the Black Variety is not a new phenomena. Howells (1973, 1989, 1995) using multivariate analyses, determined that the Easter Island population was characterized as Australo-Melanesian, while other skeletons from South America were found to be related to Africans and Australians (Coon, 1962; Dixon, 2001; Howell, 1989, 1995; Lahr, 1996). The African-Australo-Melanesian morphology was widespread in North and South America. For example skeletal remains belonging to the Black Variety have been found in Brazil (Neves, Powell, Prous and Ozolins, 1998; Neves et al., 1998), Columbian Highlands (Neves et al., 1995; Powell, 2005), Mexico (Gonza’lez-Jose, 2012), Florida (Howells, 1995), and Southern Patazonia (Neves et al., 1999a, 1999b).
We don’t have to depend on just paintings to acknowledge the Negro/African presence in America before 1492, we also have the facial reconstructions of paleoAmericans that have resulted from craniometrics that show these people were Blacks. The bioanthropologist Walter Neves’s reconstruction of the first Americans evidenced Negroid features for the Paleoamerican we call Luzia. What made this finding startling was that Neves using the mahalanobis distance and principal component analysis, found that 75 other skulls from Lagos Santa, were also phenotypically African or Australian (Neves et al., 2004).So stop trying to claim there were no Blacks in America before 1492, Blacks had been in America 94,000 years according to Dr. Nieda Guidon before the mongloid Native Americans found in America today arrived in the United States 6000 years ago.
References: Coon CS (1962). The Origin of Races (New York: Knopf).
Dixon EJ (2001). Human colonization of the Americas: timing, chronology and process. Quaternary Science Review 20 277–99.
Gonza´lez-Jose´ R, Hernande´z M, Neves WA, Pucciarelli HM and Correal G (2002). Cra´neos del Pleistoceno tardio-Holoceno tempramo de Me´xico en relacio´n al patro´n morfolo´gico paleoamericano. Paper presented at the 7th Congress of the Latin American Association of Biological Anthropology, Mexico City.
Howells WW (1973). Cranial Variation in Man: A Study by Multivariate Analysis of Patterns of Difference among Recent Human Populations, Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University) 67.
Howells WW (1989). Skull Shapes and the Map: Craniometric Analyses in the Dispersion of Modern Homo, Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University) 79. Early Holocene human skeletal remains from Cerca Grande 497
Howells WW (1995). Who’s Who in Skulls: Ethnic Identification of Crania from Measurments, Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Cambridge. MA: Harvard University) 82.
Neves WA and Hubbe M (2005). Cranial morphology of early Americans from Lagoa Santa, Brazil: Implications for the settlement of the New World. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 102(18) 309–18, 314.
Neves WA and Meyer D (1993). The contribution of the morphology of early South and Northamerican skeletal remains to the understanding of the peopling of the Americas. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 16(Suppl) 150–1.
Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1989). Extra-continental biological relationships of early South American human remains: a multivariate analysis. Cieˆncia e Cultura 41 566–75.
Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1990). The origins of the first Americans: an analysis based onthe cranial morphology of early South American human remains. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 81 247.
Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1991). Morphological affinities of the first Americans: an exploratory analysis based on early South American human remains. Journal of Human Evolution 21 261–73.
Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1991). Morphological Affinities of the First Americans: an exploratory analysis based on early South American human remains. Journal of Human Evolution 21 261-273.
Neves WA, Gonza´ lez-Jose´ R, Hubbe M, Kipnis R, Araujo AGM and Blasi O (2004). Early Holocene Human Skeletal Remains form Cerca Grande, Lagoa Santa, Central Brazil, and the origins of the first Americans. World Archaeology 36 479-501.
Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999). Extra-continental morphological affinities of Lapa Vermelha IV Hominid 1: A multivariate analysis with progressive numbers of variables. Homo 50 263-268.
Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999). Extra-continental morphological affinities of Palli-Aike, Southern Chile. Interciencia 24 258-263, Available: http://www.interciencia.org/v24_04/neves.pdf
Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999a). Extra-continental morphological affinities of Palli Aike, southern Chile. Interciencia 24 258–63.
Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999b). Modern human origins as seen from the peripheries. Journal of Human Evolution 37 129–33.
Neves WA, Powell JF, Prous A and Ozolins EG (1998). Lapa Vermelha IV Hominid 1: morphologial affinities or the earliest known American. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 26(Suppl) 169.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: 1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
because when dealing with history, the older the better Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
Pigafetta also notes that they had men 125 to 140 years old, but that was in Brazil. Were the 9 foot tall giants of Patagonia supposed to be woolly haired?
the difference between that is one cannot not simply look at someone and tell if they are "140 years old" but one can observe if someone has "woolly hair"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: 1883 -1919?
we are talking about original fuegians
Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
because when dealing with history, the older the better
that is simplistic not always true. This case is an example. There are only select illustrators who actually went to these far form Europe places
Many of these European book illustrators never even left Europe!
One exception was John White (c. 1540 – c. 1593) early pioneer of English efforts to settle North America. He was among those who sailed with Richard Grenville to the shore of present-day North Carolina in 1585, acting as artist and mapmaker to the expedition
Mother and child of the Secotan Indians in North Carolina. Watercolour painted by John White in 1585.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
you can't simply just say "So many of these European book illustrators never even left Europe!" as a logical explanation for them getting it wrong.
you need to show where johann ihle made another mistake in depicting a native people racially incorrect for you to have some merit to your argument (and it must be proven correct)
i guess giraffes don't exist either since johann ihle supposedly did not leave Europe
pigafetta does mention the existence of negroid people in the southern portion of the Americas
i say maybe there were blacks or Negroids in the Americas before Columbus but their numbers were very small just like Samuel purchas and many Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors had said
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
i guess giraffes don't exist either since johann ihle supposedly did not leave Europe
Don't be silly. If someone has never been to another place that doesn't mean they then get everything wrong it means they might not be reliable.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
pigafetta does mention the existence of negroid people in the southern portion of the Americas
quote: The Brasílians are thus described by Pigafetta. “They are without religion. Natural instinct is their only law. It is not uncommon to see men 125 years of age, and some of 140. They live in long houses or cabins they call boc, one of which sometimes contains a hundred families. They are cannibals, but eat only their enemies. They are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly. They paint themselves both in the body and in the face, but principally the latter.
--A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ... By James Burney
Correct, in the example you gave he didn't use the word "Negroid"
perhaps it is in the untranslated original Italian ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: The Brasílians are thus described by Pigafetta. “They are without religion. Natural instinct is their only law. It is not uncommon to see men 125 years of age, and some of 140. They live in long houses or cabins they call boc, one of which sometimes contains a hundred families. They are cannibals, but eat only their enemies. They are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly. They paint themselves both in the body and in the face, but principally the latter.
--A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ... By James Burney
I'm trying to find the Italian on this, assuming this is the right text. I looked hard, many mentions of hair often long women's' hair. The above may be different sentences strung together
Thanks for finding that Lioness. Yes, it is a sort of summary rather than a quote. The descriptions of people with long black hair are in the Pacific.
The paragraph beginning "Questa terra del Verzin..." is the one that talks about the houses containing 100 families and people living to 140. (This is in Brazil.) Pigafetta says that the men in large canoes "look as black, naked, and shorn when they are rowing as those from the Stygian marshes." After discussing the origin story of cannibalism he says: "These men paint themselves marvellously with fire, all over the face and body, in various ways, the women also; they are shorn and have no beards, because they pluck them.... They are not wholly black, but olive-coloured; they carry their private parts uncovered; their bodies are hairless, and both men and women always go naked."
Pigafetta uses the same word (olivastri, olive-coloured) to describe the skin colour of people from the Marianas and the Philippines, and the bark of the clove-tree.
He does not mention the skin colour of the Patagonian giants, as far as I can tell, only talks about how they paint their faces. The first one they meet is said to have only a little hair, which is coloured white. Later on he describes Patagonians who have their "hair cut with a shaven pate in the manner of a friar, but longer..."
I cannot find anything about short woolly hair. Maybe someone can come up with a different translation. They sound like regular South Americans.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Don't be silly. If someone has never been to another place that doesn't mean they then get everything wrong it means they might not be reliable."-the lioness
His reliability is that he was a older contemporary
"Correct, in the example you gave he didn't use the word "Negroid""- the lioness
I used the modern word negroid because woolly hair is a negroid feature
"perhaps it is in the untranslated original Italian ?"-the lioness
be careful because pigafetta's work has been edited several times
"I'm trying to find the Italian on this, assuming this is the right text. I looked hard, many mentions of hair often long women's' hair. The above may be different sentences strung together" -the lioness
you have to look for an edition that predates 1850. look up the publishing date
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: Thanks for finding that Lioness. Yes, it is a sort of summary rather than a quote. The descriptions of people with long black hair are in the Pacific.
The paragraph beginning "Questa terra del Verzin..." is the one that talks about the houses containing 100 families and people living to 140. (This is in Brazil.) Pigafetta says that the men in large canoes "look as black, naked, and shorn when they are rowing as those from the Stygian marshes." After discussing the origin story of cannibalism he says: "These men paint themselves marvellously with fire, all over the face and body, in various ways, the women also; they are shorn and have no beards, because they pluck them.... They are not wholly black, but olive-coloured; they carry their private parts uncovered; their bodies are hairless, and both men and women always go naked."
Pigafetta uses the same word (olivastri, olive-coloured) to describe the skin colour of people from the Marianas and the Philippines, and the bark of the clove-tree.
He does not mention the skin colour of the Patagonian giants, as far as I can tell, only talks about how they paint their faces. The first one they meet is said to have only a little hair, which is coloured white. Later on he describes Patagonians who have their "hair cut with a shaven pate in the manner of a friar, but longer..."
I cannot find anything about short woolly hair. Maybe someone can come up with a different translation. They sound like regular South Americans.
what is the publishing date? that work could be edited
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
The one Lioness linked looks like a 1956 edition of a text published in 1928 by an Italian scholar. The spelling has been modernized somewhat but seems fine.
>Here< is a transcription of the original Italian version, in the original spelling, with facing English translation. I cannot find a digitized scans of the original Italian manuscript, I tried the Ambrosian Library website and couldn't find it there. I think it's wildly unlikely that mention of "woolly hair" has been edited out, but you could always fly to Europe and ask to have a look at the original ms.
> Here < is a downloadable digital scan of one of the original 1525 French versions from the Yale library. Knock yourself out if you want to read the whole thing looking for mention of woolly hair! I checked the bits which describe the hair of the Verzin Indians and the Patagonian giants and they match the published Italian version.
I'm inclined to think Burney simply got it wrong in his summary. Anyway, we're going to need a better source for claims of Brazilian negroids.
Maybe someone can figure out what or who Ihle's source was for the savages of Tierra del Fuego? Digging this stuff up is fun but it takes way too long.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: The one Lioness linked looks like a 1956 edition of a text published in 1928 by an Italian scholar. The spelling has been modernized somewhat but seems fine.
>Here< is a transcription of the original Italian version, in the original spelling, with facing English translation. I cannot find a digitized scans of the original Italian manuscript, I tried the Ambrosian Library website and couldn't find it there. I think it's wildly unlikely that mention of "woolly hair" has been edited out, but you could always fly to Europe and ask to have a look at the original ms.
> Here < is a downloadable digital scan of one of the original 1525 French versions from the Yale library. Knock yourself out if you want to read the whole thing looking for mention of woolly hair! I checked the bits which describe the hair of the Verzin Indians and the Patagonian giants and they match the published Italian version.
I'm inclined to think Burney simply got it wrong in his summary. Anyway, we're going to need a better source for claims of Brazilian negroids.
Maybe someone can figure out what or who Ihle's source was for the savages of Tierra del Fuego? Digging this stuff up is fun but it takes way too long.
i will check the french translation
even though james alexander robesrton has stated that the french version has been condensed
There are two other French manuscripts as well, maybe it's from one of those.
I think they are both in the French National Library.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: There are two other French manuscripts as well, maybe it's from one of those.
can you post the links?
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
Don't have any.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
In South America the Blacks were separated into two Negro groups, one the Brazilians were described as "Black" or very dark, and the other Petogonians described as 'olive' skinned, i.e., light brown or yellowish like the Khoisan of South Africa.
This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black".
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Fuegians were probably Khoisan. The Fuegians were not mongoloid Indians.
George Weber noted that: “First, it shows that people similar to those that inhabited the Lagoa Santa area, in central Brazil, and the area of Sabana de Bogota, in Colombia, once had a wide distribution across South America, reaching even the southernmost region of the sub-continent.”
Pigafetta, made it clear the South Americans were both “black” and “olive’, i.e., brownish/yellowish in complexion.
He added: Second, but intrinsically related to the first fact, that the non-Mongoloid morphology already demonstrated to occur in tropical and subtropical areas of South America.
Like the Khoisan, the Fuegian Blacks were described as yellowish, or olive tinged in hue, The only difference between the Khoisan and the Fuegians was the later had long hair.
The Khoisan and Fuegians used the same tools , and built the same houses.
. In addition both groups spoke Click languages.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Fuegians were probably Khoisan. The Fuegians were not mongoloid Indians.
George Weber noted that: “First, it shows that people similar to those that inhabited the Lagoa Santa area, in central Brazil, and the area of Sabana de Bogota, in Colombia, once had a wide distribution across South America, reaching even the southernmost region of the sub-continent.”
Pigafetta, made it clear the South Americans were both “black” and “olive’, i.e., brownish/yellowish in complexion.
He added: Second, but intrinsically related to the first fact, that the non-Mongoloid morphology already demonstrated to occur in tropical and subtropical areas of South America.
Like the Khoisan, the Fuegian Blacks were described as yellowish, or olive tinged in hue, The only difference between the Khoisan and the Fuegians was the later had long hair.
The Khoisan and Fuegians used the same tools , and built the same houses.
. In addition both groups spoke Click languages.
i disagree with the khoisan being related to the fuegians
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Khoisan and Fuegian mothers
.
.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
Journal of Magellan's Voyage Call Number: Beinecke MS 351 (Request the physical item to view in our reading room) Creator: Pigafetta, Antonio, ca. 1480/91-ca. 1534 Language: French Date: ca. 1525
Journal of Ferdinand Magellan's voyage around the world in 1522, written by Antonio Pigafetta, Italian gentleman from Vincenza who survived the trip. Manuscript on parchment (fine) of A journal of Ferdinand Magellan's voyage around the world in 1522, written by Antonio Pigafetta (ca. 1480/91 - ca. 1534), an Italian gentleman from Vincenza who survived the trip. Beinecke MS 351, the text of which is divided into 57 numbered chapters, is the most complete and most handsomely produced manuscript of the four surviving witnesses to the text; the original, probably in Italian, is now lost.
Pigafetta kept a detailed journal, the original of which is lost. However, an account of the voyage, written by Pigafetta between 1522 and 1525, survives in four manuscript versions: one in Italian and three in French. This version, in French, is from the library of Yale University, and is the most complete and handsomely produced of the four surviving manuscripts.
^^ go below larger book image to slider thumbnails move slider slightly to right and click on any page once (dont enlarge yet) notice under larger image a number Go forward or backward to page 9v
to enlarge hit "image view" and click again ( don't select zoom view)
for beginning of Brazil section go two pages backward to 8v
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the original manuscript is lost
Carlo Amoretti seen the original
The one on the left looks abridged
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the original manuscript is lost
Carlo Amoretti seen the original
The one on the left looks abridged
On the above version at left
Pigafetta kept a detailed journal, the original of which is lost. However, an account of the voyage, written by Pigafetta between 1522 and 1525, survives in four manuscript versions: one in Italian and three in French. This version, in French, is from the library of Yale University, and is the most complete and handsomely produced of the four surviving manuscripts.
the original by Pigafetta is lost however the very same Pigafetta who wrote the original version wrote the above as well, in retrospect of his voyage
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Before you complain you should understand what this text says and also look at the pages before and ahead of it before you jump to conclusions
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Before you complain you should understand what this text says and also look at the pages before and ahead of it before you jump to conclusions
The fact that the original is lost (which Carlo amoretti seen) leaves some doubt in its completeness and originality.
If the original is lost, how do World Digital Library know it is complete?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The original is lost where Pigafetta was taking notes on location. However this version is also written by Pigafetta looking back later recollectively. It's a illuminated manuscript with hand painted illustrations and hand written calligraphic writing
Among other things Amoretti modernized the Italian of Pigafetta's text. His edition was the basis for the writings on Magellan's expedition by Jose Toribio Medina and Francis Hill H. Guillemard whose biography of Magellan is still considered the leading work on the Portuguese navigator. Navigation historians and Magellan scholars, among them James Alexander Robertson, Donald D. Brand, and Martin Torodash, fault Amoretti's edition for taking liberties with Pigafetta's text. Robertson accused Amoretti of committing "the sin of editing the precious document, almost beyond recognition." Brand describes the work as "somewhat garbled." Theodore J. Cachey Jr. (The First Voyage Around the World, (1519-1522), An Account of Magellan's Expedition by Antonio Pigafetta, New York: 1995) called Amoretti's edition as having "bowdlerized the text in an effort to 'exposit with the necessary decency the account of some strange customs written by him [Pigafetta] in frank terms which would offend the delicacy and modesty of the reader of good taste." Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
This is Amoretti's translation of the Italian ms into French, not one of the originally French versions. I guess it explains where the woolly hair in Burney and the others comes from, but why did Amoretti put it in?
Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition, which has been criticized for being heavily edited, "in places almost beyond recognition". Even he, in his rather free modernization, doesn't mention woolly hair. He only says "they don't have long hair, nor beards, nor hair in any part, because they pluck it."
The Italian manuscript used by Carlo Amoretti is not lost, it is in the Ambrosiana Library in Milan, and multiple transcriptions have been published, including the one linked above. What is lost is the hypothetical original written by Pigafetta which the surviving manuscripts derive from. Amoretti never saw this original, rather he found the Ambrosiana version, which still exists.
Completeness is with respect to the surviving manuscript tradition, as obviously you can't compare them to a lost original from 500 years ago.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
This is Amoretti's translation of the Italian ms into French, not one of the originally French versions. I guess it explains where the woolly hair in Burney and the others comes from, but why did Amoretti put it in?
Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition, which has been criticized for being heavily edited, "in places almost beyond recognition". Even he, in his rather free modernization, doesn't mention woolly hair. He only says "they don't have long hair, nor beards, nor hair in any part, because they pluck it."
The Italian manuscript used by Carlo Amoretti is not lost, it is in the Ambrosiana Library in Milan, and multiple transcriptions have been published, including the one linked above. What is lost is the hypothetical original written by Pigafetta which the surviving manuscripts derive from. Amoretti never saw this original, rather he found the Ambrosiana version, which still exists.
Completeness is with respect to the surviving manuscript tradition, as obviously you can't compare them to a lost original from 500 years ago.
Pigafetta kept a detailed journal, the original of which is lost. However, an account of the voyage, written by Pigafetta between 1522 and 1525, survives in four manuscript versions: one in Italian and three in French. This version, in French, is from the library of Yale University, and is the most complete and handsomely produced of the four surviving manuscripts.
That's what I posted, from your earlier link pre-Amoretti'
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The original is lost where Pigafetta was taking notes on location. However this version is also written by Pigafetta looking back later recollectively. It's a illuminated manuscript with hand painted illustrations and hand written calligraphic writing
Among other things Amoretti modernized the Italian of Pigafetta's text. His edition was the basis for the writings on Magellan's expedition by Jose Toribio Medina and Francis Hill H. Guillemard whose biography of Magellan is still considered the leading work on the Portuguese navigator. Navigation historians and Magellan scholars, among them James Alexander Robertson, Donald D. Brand, and Martin Torodash, fault Amoretti's edition for taking liberties with Pigafetta's text. Robertson accused Amoretti of committing "the sin of editing the precious document, almost beyond recognition." Brand describes the work as "somewhat garbled." Theodore J. Cachey Jr. (The First Voyage Around the World, (1519-1522), An Account of Magellan's Expedition by Antonio Pigafetta, New York: 1995) called Amoretti's edition as having "bowdlerized the text in an effort to 'exposit with the necessary decency the account of some strange customs written by him [Pigafetta] in frank terms which would offend the delicacy and modesty of the reader of good taste."
"ames Alexander Robertson, Donald D. Brand, and Martin Torodash" Have any of these men seen the original?
it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
This is Amoretti's translation of the Italian ms into French, not one of the originally French versions. I guess it explains where the woolly hair in Burney and the others comes from, but why did Amoretti put it in?
Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition, which has been criticized for being heavily edited, "in places almost beyond recognition". Even he, in his rather free modernization, doesn't mention woolly hair. He only says "they don't have long hair, nor beards, nor hair in any part, because they pluck it."
The Italian manuscript used by Carlo Amoretti is not lost, it is in the Ambrosiana Library in Milan, and multiple transcriptions have been published, including the one linked above. What is lost is the hypothetical original written by Pigafetta which the surviving manuscripts derive from. Amoretti never saw this original, rather he found the Ambrosiana version, which still exists.
Completeness is with respect to the surviving manuscript tradition, as obviously you can't compare them to a lost original from 500 years ago.
Quote from above Amoretti
quote: INTORNO AL GLOBO 19 rammemorare la vittoria riportata sui nímici (a). Femmi tutto If I9 questo racconto Giovan Carvajo (b) noſtro piloto, che quat tro anni era itato in queſto paese . I Brasiliesi sono olivaſtri anzi che neri: vanno ígnudi non coprendo nemmeno le parti sessuali;~ma sidipingono stranamente tutto il corpo e’l volto col fuoco in diverse ma niere; e lo fanno le donne come igli uomini. Non hanno lunga capigliatura, ne’barba, ne’peli in alcuna parte, perchè 'fi pelano (c) . Hanno veſti di piume di papagallo fatte in maniera, che le grandi penne dell’uccello formano dietro un cerchio a ruota (d), che a noſtri occhi era cosa- assai ridicola. Quasi tutti gli uomini (non però* le femmine .e i fanciulli) hanno al labbro di sotto tre buchi dai quali pendono de’ ci
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it
Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source DATE made 1525
no im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work
in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian
For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be pigafetta
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This 1883 picture is of some indigenous Fuegians
Now if there was another group that looked like Africans also there, no remains of such different type of group have been found
If such group that looked like Africans were also there. There is no way of knowing when they got there, if it was 600 years ago or 8,000
An Asian man from Papua New Guinea
a Papua New Guinean, a Bougainville Islander and a Han Chinese – showed that between 4% and 6% of the genome of Melanesians (represented by the Papua New Guinean and Bougainville Islander) derives from a Denisovan population; a later study puts the amount at 1.11% (with an additional contribution from some different and yet unknown ancestor)
The Denisovan or Denisova hominin ( /dɪˈniːsəvə/ di-NEE-sə-və) is an extinct species or subspecies of human in the genus Homo. Pending its status as either species or subspecies it currently carries the temporary names Homo sp. Altai,[1] or Homo sapiens ssp. Denisova.[2][3] In March 2010, scientists announced the discovery of a finger bone fragment of a juvenile female who lived about 41,000 years ago, found in the remote Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains in Siberia, a cave that has also been inhabited by Neanderthals and modern humans.[4][5][6] The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of the finger bone showed it to be genetically distinct from Neanderthals and modern humans
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work
in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian
For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be pigafetta
with this standard you are going to have to throw out most historical documents, certainly all of ancient history. just be sure not to keep only the bits you like.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work
in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian
For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be pigafetta
with this standard you are going to have to throw out most historical documents, certainly all of ancient history. just be sure not to keep only the bits you like.
Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Now if there was another group that looked like Africans also there, no remains of such different type of group have been found"- the lioness julio popper exterminated a large portion of them
possibly killed them off with diseases or warfare
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
There are numerous descriptions of Tierro del Fuego natives before Popper, none of them describe negroids. The only evidence you actually have offered is Ihle's illustration. So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta, but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries
What do you mean by that?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: There are numerous descriptions of Tierro del Fuego natives before Popper, none of them describe negroids. The only evidence you actually have offered is Ihle's illustration. So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta, but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries
What do you mean by that?
i never claimed they were negroid because i never lived back then
"So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy." - capra
I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle. The photo by the German illustrator raises questions about a negroid people in tierra del fuego
As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: There are numerous descriptions of Tierro del Fuego natives before Popper, none of them describe negroids. The only evidence you actually have offered is Ihle's illustration. So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta, but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries
What do you mean by that?
.
. Lying Euronut . This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black", with "wooly hair".
Black was the term used to describe Negro people, as illustrated by Pigafetta. This is a silly debate Pigafetta made it clear the Brazilian males were "so Black", while the females were "olivâtre que noir", light brown instead of "so Black". This is nothing new. Women are usually lighter than males in many populations.
Stop claiming the Brazilians were not Negroes/Blacks.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle.
ah, okay, good.
quote:As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
I've got some stuff to do though, let us know what you find out
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us. " - capra
Don't get mad at clyde winters get mad at Carlo Amoretti because it was him that presented this translation
"I think the two in the BNF are these:"-capra you think or are you sure? but ill read them both and see
if it turns out it is a match we can safely say that the "woolly hair" quote comes from amoretti alone. unless there is some other translation published before him that uses the word "woolly"
the only issue that leaves doubt in this assumption is that carlo amoretti seen the original manuscript which the other manuscripts could have been edited or revised through out the years by copyists
we have to know why did amoretti use "woolly" in his translation.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: ^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle.
ah, okay, good.
quote:As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
I've got some stuff to do though, let us know what you find out
Lying Euronut . This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black", with "wooly hair".
Black was the term used to describe Negro people, as illustrated by Pigafetta. This is a silly debate Pigafetta made it clear the Brazilian males were "so Black", while the females were "olivâtre que noir", light brown in the French translation, or "point bien noir", not very Black, in the original; instead of "so Black" for Brazilian males.
This is nothing new. Women are usually lighter than males in many populations.
Stop claiming the Brazilians were not Negroes/Blacks.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Don't get mad at clyde winters get mad at Carlo Amoretti because it was him that presented this translation
I'm not blaming him for the "woolly hair" part, I assumed it was accurate too. Lioness was the one who went and checked the original Italian! No, it's his claim that only the women were "olive-coloured". It doesn't say that.
quote:"I think the two in the BNF are these:"-capra you think or are you sure? but ill read them both and see
Always better to have more than one person check anyway.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Today the term "black" does not have an greed upon meaning. It is not a scientific term.
In addition in 16th and 17th century Europe you will find instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them. This is unlike classifications in modern America
I don't see instances of old writing where Explorers going into the Americas and remark " they looked just like Africans"
And if you go deep into the Amazon rainforest you can still find people who look like this. So weher are the other types?
HOwever looking at the features, the nose an lips, one cold argue overlaps, very similar to some common African features
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by capra: ^Clyde, we are reading the fucking originals, you clown. It's hilarious you think you can lie to us.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle.
ah, okay, good.
quote:As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy
I've got some stuff to do though, let us know what you find out
Lying Euronut . This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black", with "wooly hair".
Black was the term used to describe Negro people, as illustrated by Pigafetta. This is a silly debate Pigafetta made it clear the Brazilian males were "so Black", while the females were "olivâtre que noir", light brown in the French translation, or "point bien noir", not very Black, in the original; instead of "so Black" for Brazilian males.
This is nothing new. Women are usually lighter than males in many populations.
Stop claiming the Brazilians were not Negroes/Blacks.
the Brazilians were vast majority not black
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Today the term "black" does not have an greed upon meaning. It is not a scientific term.
In addition in 16th and 17th century Europe you will find instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them. This is unlike classifications in modern America
I don't see instances of old writing where Explorers going into the Americas and remark " they looked just like Africans"
And if you go deep into the Amazon rainforest you can still find people who look like this. So weher are the other types?
HOwever looking at the features, the nose an lips, one cold argue overlaps, very similar to some common African features
How do you know this native has no African ancestry?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Identification of Polynesian mtDNA haplogroups in remains of Botocudo Amerindians from Brazil
Vanessa Faria Gonçalves,a,1 Jesper Stenderup,b,1 Cláudia Rodrigues-Carvalho,c Hilton P. Silva,d Higgor Gonçalves-Dornelas,a Andersen Líryo,c Toomas Kivisild,e Anna-Sapfo Malaspinas,b Paula F. Campos,b,f Morten Rasmussen,b Eske Willerslev,b,2 and Sergio Danilo J. Penaa,2
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Identification of Polynesian mtDNA haplogroups in remains of Botocudo Amerindians from Brazil
Vanessa Faria Gonçalves,a,1 Jesper Stenderup,b,1 Cláudia Rodrigues-Carvalho,c Hilton P. Silva,d Higgor Gonçalves-Dornelas,a Andersen Líryo,c Toomas Kivisild,e Anna-Sapfo Malaspinas,b Paula F. Campos,b,f Morten Rasmussen,b Eske Willerslev,b,2 and Sergio Danilo J. Penaa,2
Haplogroups do not tell you your complete genetic makeup
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Don't get mad at clyde winters get mad at Carlo Amoretti because it was him that presented this translation
I'm not blaming him for the "woolly hair" part, I assumed it was accurate too. Lioness was the one who went and checked the original Italian! No, it's his claim that only the women were "olive-coloured". It doesn't say that.
quote:"I think the two in the BNF are these:"-capra you think or are you sure? but ill read them both and see
Always better to have more than one person check anyway.
so far i could not find the "woolly haired" reference in either one of these manuscripts however i did found out that these manuscripts were not originally written by pigafetta but are mere "copies"
"In 1797 Amoretti discovered at the Biblioteca the lost Italian manuscript of Pigafetta on Magellan's voyage, considered by most Magellan scholars as the oldest of four extant manuscripts and the most complete, although there is consensus among paleographic scholars this and all surviving codices are mere copies of an original or originals now deemed forever lost."
proof of this is that the manuscripts do not have the same hand writing
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it
Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source DATE made 1525
no im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work
in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian
For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be
His name is on the title page here:
While the original account in Pigafetta is lost that he made on location on the voyage. It the same man Pigafetta who wrote later another account in recollection of the voyage. Scholars are not in agreement if he wrote the French version himself.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
"A Native Savage of America" Native American carrying a club,
wearing a feathered headdress and short skirt, and armed with an axe. Hand-colored copperplate engraving from a drawing by Johann Ihle from Ebenezer Sibly's "Universal System of Natural History" 1794. The prolific Sibly published his Universal System of Natural History in 1794~1796 in five volumes covering the three natural worlds of fauna, flora and geology. The series included illustrations of mythical beasts such as the sukotyro and the mermaid, and depicted sloths sitting on the ground (instead of hanging from trees) and a domesticated female orang utan wearing a bandana. The engravings were by J. Pass, J. Chapman and Barlow copied from original drawings by famous natural history artists George Edwards, Albertus Seba, Maria Sybilla Merian, and Johann Ihle. These volumes are extremely hard to find even with uncoloured plates, and very rare coloured. The hand-colouring on these copperplate engravings is particularly rich and intense.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: so far i could not find the "woolly haired" reference in either one of these manuscripts however i did found out that these manuscripts were not originally written by pigafetta but are mere "copies"
Thanks. The second one is really painful to read - but yeah I checked too and they both say the same thing, "les hommes sont tonduz et ne portent point de barbe...."
Man, it's an amazing time we are living in, that we random dudes can check frigging 16th century manuscripts without stirring from our desks.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: so far i could not find the "woolly haired" reference in either one of these manuscripts however i did found out that these manuscripts were not originally written by pigafetta but are mere "copies"
Thanks. The second one is really painful to read - but yeah I checked too and they both say the same thing, "les hommes sont tonduz et ne portent point de barbe...."
Man, it's an amazing time we are living in, that we random dudes can check frigging 16th century manuscripts without stirring from our desks.
You seemed to have ignored looking at the best version right here that you yourself first linked in the thread
quote:Originally posted by capra:
> Here < is a downloadable digital scan of one of the original 1525 French versions from the Yale library. Knock yourself out if you want to read the whole thing looking for mention of woolly hair! I checked the bits which describe the hair of the Verzin Indians and the Patagonian giants and they match the published Italian version.
Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
Yeah the Yale one is way nicer but we wanted to check all four of the original manuscripts..
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it
Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source DATE made 1525
no im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work
in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian
For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be
His name is on the title page here:
While the original account in Pigafetta is lost that he made on location on the voyage. It the same man Pigafetta who wrote later another account in recollection of the voyage. Scholars are not in agreement if he wrote the French version himself.
You can't prove that he wrote it or supervised over the writings. this is debated by scholars rather he had a hand in its writing or editing. This version was done by copyist who copied it from the original and perhaps abridged it.
"collation demonstrates, first that the three french manuscripts have so much in common- yet with a number of variants peculiar to one or the other manuscript- that they must all derive by different channels from a single french version, represented by a manuscript not now extant; second, that this version, made by a writer of french language unfamiliar with technical terms in Italian, contained so many undigested italianisms or misrepresentations of italian idioms that it must have been translated, not by pigafetta or even (we must suppose)under his supervision, from an Italian original; and third, the divergence between the surviving french manuscripts (on one hand ) and the italian manuscript (on the other) are too numerous and substantial to permit us to identify ambrosiana manuscript with this original." pg 22 Magellan's Voyage: A Narrative Account of the First Circumnavigation By Antonio Pigafetta translated and edited by R.A. skelton
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra: Yeah the Yale one is way nicer but we wanted to check all four of the original manuscripts..
we can't call them "original"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by capra:
Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition
[url= [url= https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da ]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+d a [/url] l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per +la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta[/url]
This is pertinent section, talking about skin and hair page 19 (also see 17, 18
I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri: vanno ígnudi non coprendo nemmeno le parti sessuali;~ma sidipingono stranamente tutto il corpo e’l volto col fuoco in diverse ma niere; e lo fanno le donne come igli uomini. Non hanno lunga capigliatura, ne’barba, ne’peli in alcuna parte, perchè 'si pelano (c) . Hanno veſti di plume di papagallo fatte in maniera, che le grandi penne dell’uccello formano dietro un cerchio a ruota (d), che a noſtri occhi era cosa- assai ridicola. Quasi tutti gli uomini (non però* le femmine .e i fanciulli) hanno al labbro di sotto tre buchi dai quali pendono de’ ci
Questa gente si dipingono meravigliosamente tutto il corpo e il volto con fuoco in diverse maniere; anche le donne; sono tosi e senza barba, perchè se la pelano. Se vestono de vestiture de piume di pappagallo, con rode grandi al culo de le penne maggiori, cosa ridicola. Quasi tutti li uomini, eccetto le femmine e fanciulli, hanno tre busi nel labbro de sotto, ove portano pietre rotonde e longhe uno dito, e piú e meno di fuora pendente. Non sono del tutto negri, ma olivastri; portano descoperte le parte vergognose; el suo corpo è senza peli, e cosí omini qual donne sempre vanno nudi. Il suo re è chiamato cacich. Hanno infinitissimi pappagalli e ne dànno 8, o 10 per uno specchio; e gatti maimoni piccoli; fatti come leoni, ma gialli, cosa bellissima. Fanno pane rotondo bianco de midolla de arbore, non molto buono, che nasce fra l'arbore e la scorza ed è come ricotta: hanno porci che sopra la schiena tenono il loro ombelico, e uccelli grandi che hanno el becco come uno cucchiaro, senza lingua.
--Notizie del Mondo nuovo con le figure dei paesi scoperti descritti da
ANTONIO PIGAFETTA
vicentino, cavaliere di Rodi
ANTONIO PIGAFETTA PATRIZIO VICENTINO E CAVALIER DE RODI A L'ILLUSTRISSIMO ED ECCELLENTISSIMO SIGNOR FILIPPO DE VILLERS LISLEADAM, INCLITO GRAN MAISTRO DI RODI, SIGNOR SUO OSSERVANDISSIMO.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: You can't prove that he wrote it or supervised over the writings. this is debated by scholars rather he had a hand in its writing or editing. This version was done by copyist who copied it from the original and perhaps abridged it.
So you never should have brought it up in the first place
And you could make the same argument about any writing in a book , maybe the people who printed or hand copied the text changed it -Now you may have to throw out all your argument where you bring up what the Greeks said etc.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: You can't prove that he wrote it
So now you are saying this is not even an editing or translation issue, that Pigafetta whose name is on the title pages of these books may not have even written it, they may have lied when they put his name there. I keep explaining over and over, the original journal is lost but the second text that we are looking at here is also written by Piagetta himself in recollection of his voyage. So it's not like there is no Piagetta account at all
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: You can't prove that he wrote it or supervised over the writings. this is debated by scholars rather he had a hand in its writing or editing. This version was done by copyist who copied it from the original and perhaps abridged it.
So you never should have brought it up in the first place
And you could make the same argument about any writing in a book , maybe the people who printed or hand copied the text changed it -Now you may have to throw out all your argument where you bring up what the Greeks said etc.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: You can't prove that he wrote it
So now you are saying this is not even an editing or translation issue, that Pigafetta whose name is on the title pages of these books may not have even written it, they may have lied when they put his name there. I keep explaining over and over, the original journal is lost but the second text that we are looking at here is also written by Piagetta himself in recollection of his voyage. So it's not like there is no Piagetta account at all
the issue is not if the text is true to its original
my argument is that it may be an abridged version
the issue is the "woolly hair" reference, how do we know it wasn't taken out because all the versions you presented doesn't even describe the hair texture of the natives.
"So now you are saying this is not even an editing or translation issue, that Pigafetta whose name is on the title pages of these books may not have even written it, they may have lied when they put his name there. I keep explaining over and over, the original journal is lost but the second text that we are looking at here is also written by Piagetta himself in recollection of his voyage. So it's not like there is no Piagetta account at all"- the lioness
we can't say he personally wrote the manuscript because the hand writing is not the same on any of the manuscripts.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
can someone find the Biblioteca Ambrosiana manuscript? Ill end the debate if anyone can find that manuscript
its too much controversy around the french version manuscripts
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ whats your point? this is from the french version
i want the Italian manuscript not the 1900 print
[ 11. November 2017, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
This is pertinent section, talking about skin and hair page 19 (also see 17, 18
I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri: vanno ígnudi non coprendo nemmeno le parti sessuali;~ma sidipingono stranamente tutto il corpo e’l volto col fuoco in diverse ma niere; e lo fanno le donne come igli uomini. Non hanno lunga capigliatura, ne’barba, ne’peli in alcuna parte, perchè 'si pelano (c) . Hanno veſti di plume di papagallo fatte in maniera, che le grandi penne dell’uccello formano dietro un cerchio a ruota (d), che a noſtri occhi era cosa- assai ridicola. Quasi tutti gli uomini (non però* le femmine .e i fanciulli) hanno al labbro di sotto tre buchi dai quali pendono de’ ci
_______________________________
we need an accurate translation
___________________________________________ .
.
ANTONIO PIGAFETTA
vicentino, cavaliere di Rodi
ANTONIO PIGAFETTA PATRIZIO VICENTINO E CAVALIER DE RODI A L'ILLUSTRISSIMO ED ECCELLENTISSIMO SIGNOR FILIPPO DE VILLERS LISLEADAM, INCLITO GRAN MAISTRO DI RODI, SIGNOR SUO OSSERVANDISSIMO.
[/QUOTE]
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black. .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The second one is hand written in pen, very interesting
What manuscript is this?
I was trying looking for a navigation tool for a word search, it doesn't look like there are any unless I missed it
Can anybody find the right section? It comes right after Jean Carvajo is mentioned. He is mentioned just twice in the book under various spellings in different versions
Jean Carvajo Johane Carnagio Joao Carvalho
Also "plumes" is mentioned, parrot feathers in this section
I had a hard time trying to find the right section In this second link above
One method is to take some words that are around page 18 and search them in google with Pigafetta's name that might link to one of the versions in a word searchable form on some other website , Once you're there you can look for plume or lèvre (lip in French) and this name Carvajo (use only Carv or Carn ) Then home in on the location and then go back to the other text back and forth to get closer and closer
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.
in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them and anybody else less than pale This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.
Kamayurá man, of an indigenous tribe in the Amazonian Basin of Brazil
Some of these tribes also paint their bodies and it may not always be easy to tell they are painted
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.
in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them. This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.
intersting
Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
There are many theories regarding who was the first European to set foot on the land now called Brazil. Besides the widely accepted view of Cabral's discovery, some say that it was Duarte Pacheco Pereira between November and December 1498[3][4] and some others say that it was first encountered by Vicente Yáñez Pinzón, a Spanish navigator who had accompanied Colombus in his first voyage of discovery to the Americas, having supposedly arrived in today's Pernambuco region on 26 January 1500 but was unable to claim the land because of the Treaty of Tordesillas.[5] In April 1500, Brazil was claimed for Portugal on the arrival of the Portuguese fleet commanded by Pedro Álvares Cabral.[6] The Portuguese encountered stone-using natives divided into several tribes, many of whom shared the same Tupi–Guarani language family, and fought among themselves
Albert Eckhout's painting of the Tupi
Albert Eckhout (c.1610–1665) was a Dutch portrait and still life painter. Eckhout, who was born in Groningen, was among the first European artists to paint scenes from the New World. In 1636 he traveled to Dutch Brazil, where he stayed until 1644, invited by count John Maurice, Prince of Nassau-Siegen.[1] There, he painted portraits of the natives, slaves and mulattos of Brazil in the seventeenth century, besides numerous sketches of plants and animals
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
(my quote removed, repetative-lioness)
there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare
[ 11. November 2017, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.
in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them. This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.
intersting
Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?
It's unnecessary
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
Incorrect
" anzi che" translates to "rather than" or "on the contrary"
meaning they were olive rather than black
"and" is "e", not appearing in that sentence
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare
But there are people even today, deep in the Amazon like the Yanomami who didn't encounter Europeans until the 1940s
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.
in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them. This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.
intersting
Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?
It's unnecessary
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
Incorrect
" anzi che" translates to "rather than" or "on the contrary"
meaning they were olive rather than black
"and" is "e", not appearing in that sentence
then why make the claim?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Something interesting is that if look at Brazil the closest place in the Americas to Africa is around Liberia/Sierra Leone
Ethiopia and Tanzania are some of the furthest places, on the other side of the continent.
Mursi tribe, Ethiopia
Suya tribe, Brazil
It is remarkable how this is in both places.
Ironically the Amazonian lip plates there are associated with oratory and singing (not in Ethiopia though)
I haven't research lip plates much but I would guess that they evolved out of some less extreme modification of the lip
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
This passage also supports the fact the Brazilians were Black.
in old European writing you will find many instances where writers will call Europeans who are only slightly darker than pale "black", the term wasn't specific to "Negroid" of Africa but also included them. This is unlike much narrower classifications in modern America.
intersting
Do you have a reference in Italian where they use neri to describe a European who is known to be white/bianchi?
It's unnecessary
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Here we see "I Brasiliesi sono olivastri anzi che neri". This translates as the Brazialians were Black and Tan.
Incorrect
" anzi che" translates to "rather than" or "on the contrary"
meaning they were olive rather than black
"and" is "e", not appearing in that sentence
then why make the claim?
I have shown it in English writing before but haven't researched Italian. I said that before I realized that the quote was saying olive rather than black instead of olive and black, got to watch those diversions again
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Something interesting is that if look at Brazil the closest place in the Americas to Africa is around Liberia/Sierra Leone
Ethiopia and Tanzania are some of the furthest places, on the other side of the continent.
Mursi tribe, Ethiopia
Suya tribe, Brazil
It is remarkable how this is in both places.
Ironically the Amazonian lip plates there are associated with oratory and singing (not in Ethiopia though)
I haven't research lip plates much but I would guess that they evolved out of some less extreme modification of the lip
The Portuguese did bring slaves from east Africa to Brazil
(not making any claims)
you will have to study the history of these customs to find out the origin
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Highly unlikely, it is these aboriginal Brazilians in the Amazon who were and are most isolated from European colonizers
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Stop lying,who are these tan Europeans as the only way the could've existed is admixture with darker people or these "dark whites" mutated and create the contemporary Euros sense they use they word swarthy to describe dark skin and whites finally acknowledge African people in medieval Europe though they were there earlier it makes no sense they would call people slightly darker than themselves black.
Not brazil but why do these toas Indians look different from the Brazilian Indian as whites state Indians and Africans rarely mixed.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Stop lying,who are these tan Europeans as the only way the could've existed is admixture with darker people or these "dark whites" mutated and create the contemporary Euros sense they use they word swarthy to describe dark skin and whites finally acknowledge African people in medieval Europe though they were there earlier jt makes no sense they would call people slightly darker than themselves black.
Do be ignorant and say I'm lying
Book:John Macky (d. 1726) 'Memoirs of the Secret Services'
^ last line "a black man"
Daniel Finch Earl of Nottingham, Secretary of State
Now apply this standard as someone regarded as black and then look at the Brazilian, then don't because the quote in fact said olivastri anzi che neri
I am not going to allow this thread to divert to European nobility, stick to the topic
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
comment deleted, you can make a separate topic suggesting Africans involved in Nanban trade weren't Africans and then show evidence, off topic
[ 11. November 2017, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal:
Not brazil but why do these toas Indians look different from the Brazilian Indian as whites state Indians and Africans rarely mixed.
Why would one expect people of New Mexico to look like Amazonians?
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Mexico is in the south and up until the late 18th and early 19th century did not see substantial immigration of non Europeans so the only mixing would be with is Africans or Europeans,the video of modern Mayan shows phenotype similarities with the Brazilian Indian. https://youtu.be/i4SWnMJhHAw
My comment wasn't of topic as Spain and Portugal are connected so the implications is easy to understand with my initial comment.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Stop lying,who are these tan Europeans as the only way the could've existed is admixture with darker people or these "dark whites" mutated and create the contemporary Euros sense they use they word swarthy to describe dark skin and whites finally acknowledge African people in medieval Europe though they were there earlier jt makes no sense they would call people slightly darker than themselves black.
Do be ignorant and say I'm lying
Book:John Macky (d. 1726) 'Memoirs of the Secret Services'
Now apply this standard as someone regarded as black and then look at the Brazilian, then don't because the quote in fact said olivastri anzi che neri
I am not going to allow this thread to divert to European nobility, stick to the topic
that is English not Italian
[ 11. November 2017, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Mexico is in the south and up until tke the late 18th and early 19th century did not see substantial immigration of non Europeans so the only mixing would be with is Africans or Europeans,the video of modern Mayan shows phenotype similarities with the Brazilian Indian. https://youtu.be/i4SWnMJhHAw
Please wake up Toas Indians are New Mexico not Mexico, over 1000 miles away
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
That's not the point,the native Americans show a large phenotype variance for a population that 90% of the people were killed and could've only mixed with Africans or Europeans at a certain time in history before immigration as the racial breakdown of Brazil today is whites,pardos,blacks and Indians ,there are minority groups but the black population is larger than the Indians and minority groups combined so that "black" label could not apply to the Chinese looking Indians.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego
Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!
that means look for other authors on the Fuegians
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: (my quote removed, repetative-lioness)
there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare
It is wrong for you to edit this post. It makes one feel you are trying to hide something.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego
Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!
that means look for other authors on the Fuegians
lioness' I know we disagree on most things, But I would like to thank you for the fine research you have done in finding primary data for this topic.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: lioness' I know we disagree on most things, But I would like to thank you for the fine research you have done in finding primary data for this topic.
thanks, it took a while to coordinate sources
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: (my quote removed, repetative-lioness)
there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare
It is wrong for you to edit this post. It makes one feel you are trying to hide something.
I'm am going to have to edit some posts. I said what I deleted "my quote"
the whole thing was a repeat of my own post which was quoted and had a lot of text and images previous to the remark about it, none of it was the questioner's words, those I left alone
I want the thread to look readable without too many repeats of already posted material especially if it was directly before the remark
And If something is too far off topic I might delete it such as Nanban trade in Japan
Even Brazil is not that close to Patagonia
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego
Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!
that means look for other authors on the Fuegians
this goes out to Capra to be exact since she is the one finding all of the primary sources
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
"And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!"-the lioness
maybe the tierra del fuego quote might be in the original Italian manuscript
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"lioness' I know we disagree on most things, But I would like to thank you for the fine research you have done in finding primary data for this topic."-clyde winters
thank capra not the lioness
It was Capra who presented all of the primary sources.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the last point about the tierra del fuego before this debate is finished
Julius Popper states in a speech that some natives of tierra del fuego had woolly hair.
"the central portions of tierra de fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceed six feet. their skin is of a clear copper color, and is soft and oily to the touch. their dark, lusterless, woolly hair falls in tufts around a large tonsure, cut close in the top of the head." Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, Volume 23, Issues 81-84 By United States. Bureau of Manufactures pg 392 https://books.google.com/books?id=eExJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=woolly+hair+terra#v=onepage&q&f=false
[ 11. November 2017, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the last point about the tierra del fuego before this debate is finished
Julius Popper states in a speech that some natives of tierra del fuego had woolly hair.
"the central portions of tierra de fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceed six feet. their skin is of a clear copper color, and is soft and oily to the touch. their dark, lusterless, woolly hair falls in tufts around a large tonsure, cut close in the top of the head." Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, Volume 23, Issues 81-84 By United States. Bureau of Manufactures pg 392 https://books.google.com/books?id=eExJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=woolly+hair+terra
^ this author was "induced to make a translation of Julius Popper"
Exploration of Tierra del Fuego A Lecture Delivered at the Argentine Geographical Institute
Julius Popper
Argentine Tierra del Fuego is inhabited by an aboriginal race, stout, strong, and muscular, whose stature sometimes exceeds six feet.
Their skin is a light copper color, and of a smooth and greasy feel. Around a large tonsure in the middle of the head their dull black hair falls in heavy locks. The oval face is of orthogonal type, the forehead rather narrow, which with the poorly-developed frontal protuberances terminating in prominent and but slightly arched eyebrows, gives to their eyes an expression at once sunken and energetic. Prominent cheek-bones and an almost aquiline nose; a medium-sized mouth, with teeth covered with a yellowish enamel; two or three hairs on the chin, and a pair of hanging and shapeless ears complete a face which reminds one more of the North American Indian than of the Tehuelches, who inhabit the other side of the Straits. Their shoulders are square and strong, their chest broad, and, in the men, prominent and rounded, whilst the women generally have flattened bosoms with flacid, hanging breasts, though I have occasionally seen the latter firm and hemispherical.
Julius Popper (December 15, 1857 – June 5, 1893), also known in Spanish as Julio Popper, was a Romanian-born Argentine engineer, adventurer and explorer.[1] He was the designer of the modern outline of the city of Havana, Cuba.[2]
Known as a modern "conquistador" of Tierra del Fuego in southern South America, he was a controversial but influential figure. Popper was one of the perpetrators of the genocide against the native Selk'nam people.
Julius Popper with a murdered Ona.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Be careful of over-long URLs they make the format too wide
You can use the URL button link function or after the URL is there highlight and delete a lot of the end of it. It's usually still functional, check by clicking it in the pop up preview, then post
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Be careful of over-long URLs they make the format too wide
You can use the URL button link function or after the URL is there highlight and delete a lot of the end of it. It's usually still functional, check by clicking it in the pop up preview, then post
yes that is good, where is your proof that the original lecture was delivered in Spanish without a translator present ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Your proposal here is that in 1887 that the Ona people also known as the Selk'nam were woolly haired and black resembling a typical modern day American black person
^ Ona people 1989
But nobody remarked they looked just like Africans
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes that is good, where is your proof that the original lecture was delivered in Spanish without a translator present ?
The speech was delivered before the Argentine geographical society. julius popper spoke spanish
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"But nobody remarked they looked just like Africans"- the lioness
During this time they would say Negroes not Africans
but many European anthropologist would not even call Abyssinians(Ethiopians) Negroes
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes that is good, where is your proof that the original lecture was delivered in Spanish without a translator present ?
The speech was delivered before the Argentine geographical society. julius popper spoke spanish
If Julius Popper spoke Spanish confidently enough to do a lecture it means that his description "Los Cabellos negros, apagados y lanudos" which translates to
"The black hair, dull and shaggy"
or if you prefer the word " woolly" as the translation for lanudos means that someone can look at a person with unkempt hair like the man above that has been let alone to get frizzy could be termed "woolly"
So this means some people, like Julius Popper interpret woolly hair to include that type of straight hair not kept in combed condition and not exclusively "kinky" afro textured hair that many Africans have
______________________________________________
Dreadlock Techniques for White People
Straight hair can be a lot harder to dreadlock than other hair textures. It does not naturally interlock as easily as kinky, curly or even wavy hair does. It may take some experimentation with a variety of techniques and require lots of patience, but it's possible for a white person with silky, straight hair to have a head full of beautiful dreadlocks.
Wool Hat Method You may have seen people with dreadlocks wearing wool hats or tams. One reason is that they can help people with various hair textures, even straight hair, form dreadlocks naturally. It's important to start with freshly washed, dry hair. Put on your wool hat and rub it in a circular motion against your hair all over your head. This works much better with hair that has some length. Repeat the rubbing motion frequently throughout each day, and you will soon notice hair knots forming. You can gently pull them apart and the sections will naturally become the dreadlocks you want.
Neglect Method When it comes to dreadlock techniques for white people, the neglect or "freeforming" method is quite popular. Some automatically assume that the neglect method of dreadlocking includes not washing your hair, but the oil from your scalp can actually slow down the process. It's also very unsanitary. The neglect method requires more patience than the other techniques. Depending on your hair texture, it can take anywhere from one to three years to for dreadlocks to start forming. Curly hair will probably get faster results. As your hair begins matting and forming dreadlocks, you can either separate them for a neater look or just let them do their own thing.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
what you said is possible ^^^ "los negros del africa tienen cabellos finos, lanudos, cortos, negros y crespados." pg 482 Diccionario de materia mercantil, industrial y agrícola: que ..., Volume 1 By José Oriol Ronquillo y Vidal 1851
The black hair, dull and shaggy or The black hair, dull and woolly
shaggy and woolly are synonyms
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Ona people
This is pretty recent, 1889 Julius Popper gave his lecture in 1897
An 1879 Chilean expedition led by Ramón Serrano Montaner reported large amounts of placer gold in the streams and river beds of Tierra del Fuego. This prompted massive immigration to the main island between 1883 and 1909. Numerous Argentines, Chileans and Croatians settled in the main island, leading to increased conflicts with native Selk'nam.
It doesn't sound reasonable that Europeans in Tierra Del Fuego would not have noted that there were some people there who looked like Indians and another type of people who looked like Africans
Above are people of the Ona tribe, this is the exact tribe Julius Popper had described
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ona people
This is pretty recent, 1889 Julius Popper gave his lecture in 1897
An 1879 Chilean expedition led by Ramón Serrano Montaner reported large amounts of placer gold in the streams and river beds of Tierra del Fuego. This prompted massive immigration to the main island between 1883 and 1909. Numerous Argentines, Chileans and Croatians settled in the main island, leading to increased conflicts with native Selk'nam.
It doesn't sound reasonable that Europeans in Tierra Del Fuego would not have noted that there were some people there who looked like Indians and another type of people who looked like Africans
Above are people of the Ona tribe, this is the exact tribe Julius Popper had described
maybe they were erased from history
who said these were all of his pictures
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I don't have time to check this now
On his first voyage with the HMS Beagle in 1830, Robert FitzRoy picked up four native Fuegians, including "Jemmy Button" (Orundellico) and brought them to England. The surviving three were taken to London to meet the King and Queen and were, for a time, celebrities. They returned to Tierra del Fuego in the Beagle with FitzRoy and Charles Darwin, who made extensive notes about his visit to the islands.
Two views of Jemmy Button from FitzRoy's Narrative (1839)
Orundellico, known as "Jeremy Button" or "Jemmy Button" (c. 1815 – 1864), was a native Fuegian of the Yaghan (or Yámana) people from islands around Tierra del Fuego, in modern Chile and Argentina. He was taken to England by Captain FitzRoy in HMS Beagle and became a celebrity for a period.
In 1830, Captain Robert FitzRoy, at the command of the first expedition of the famous Beagle, took a group of hostages from the Fuegian indigenous people after one of his boats was stolen.[1] Jemmy Button was paid for with a mother of pearl button, hence his name. It is not clear whether his family willingly accepted the sale or he was simply abducted. FitzRoy decided to take four of the young Fuegian hostages all the way to England "to become useful as interpreters, and be the means of establishing a friendly disposition towards Englishmen on the part of their countrymen."[1] He seems to have shown great concern for the four, feeding them before his own officers and crew and intending them to be educated and Christianised so that they could improve the conditions of their kin.
The names given to the Fuegians by the crew were York Minster, Jemmy Button, Fuegia Basket (a girl) and Boat Memory.[1] The original names of the first three were, respectively, el'leparu, o'run-del'lico and yok'cushly. Boat Memory died of smallpox shortly after his arrival to England, and his Yahgan name is lost.
The Beagle arrived back in Plymouth from her first voyage of exploration in mid-October 1830. The newspapers soon started publishing details of the Yahgan visitors and they became celebrities. In London, they met King William IV. Fuegia Basket, a young girl, was given a bonnet from Queen Adelaide herself.
One year later, Captain Fitzroy returned the three surviving Fuegans home, at great expense to himself. He took with him a young naturalist, Charles Darwin, in what was the second voyage of the HMS Beagle.
After initial difficulty recalling his language and customs, Jemmy soon shed his European clothes and habits. A few months after his arrival, he was seen emaciated, naked save for a loincloth, and long-haired. Nevertheless, he declined the offer to return to England, which Darwin conjectured was due to the presence of his "young and nice looking wife" It appears that he and the others had taught their families some English.
In 1855, a group of Christian missionaries from the Patagonian Missionary Society visited Wulaia Bay on Navarino Island, to find that Jemmy still had a remarkable grasp of English. Some time later in 1859, another group of missionaries was killed at Wulaia Bay by the Yaghan, supposedly led by Jemmy and his family. In early 1860, Jemmy visited Keppel Island and gave evidence at the enquiry into the massacre, held in Stanley. He denied responsibility.
In 1863, the missionary Waite Stirling visited Tierra del Fuego and re-established contact with Jemmy; from then relations with the Yaghan improved. In 1866, after Jemmy's death, Stirling took one of Jemmy's sons, known as Threeboy, to England
Fuegians going to trade in Zapallos with the Patagonians from FitzRoy's Narrative (1839)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
First Contact with the “Fuegians” (including Darwin's account)
On December 18th, Darwin had his first encounter with the people of eastern Tierra del Fuego – a people he (and FitzRoy) referred to in general as the “Fuegians”. FitzRoy had encountered “Fuegians” on the first voyage of the Beagle, and in fact, there were currently three on board. (The two Fuegians referenced below – Jemmy Button and York Minster – belonged to a group of people from the west. So although the Englishmen lumped them all together as “Fuegians”, there were (not surprisingly) separate cultures in Tierra del Fuego.) I’ll have more to say in the coming days about the native people of Tierra del Fuego and the tree passengers that FitzRoy was bringing home. But, I suspect there is some value in reading Darwin’s own words about this first encounter in their entirety today.
“Natives of Tierra del Fuego” by Conrad Martens (from FitzRoy’s Narratives)
It is always a bit uncomfortable to hear Darwin compare “savages” with “civilized men”, so I find that I have to remind myself that this was a different time, and although it not appropriate today, it is a part of history. This European viewpoint certainly was part of who Darwin was and how he thought about the world.
Here is Darwin’s first encounter with the people living at the “bottom of the world”. (I’ve broken the entry into paragraphs to make it a little easier to follow on the page.)
quote: “The Captain sent a boat with a large party of officers to communicate with the Fuegians. As soon as the boat came within hail, one of the four men who advanced to receive us began to shout most vehemently, & at the same time pointed out a good landing place.— The women & children had all disappeared.— When we landed the party looked rather alarmed, but continued talking & making gestures with great rapidity.— It was without exception the most curious & interesting spectacle I ever beheld.— I would not have believed how entire the difference between savage & civilized man is.— It is greater than between a wild & domesticated animal, in as much as in man there is greater power of improvement.— The chief spokesman was old & appeared to be head of the family; the three others were young powerful men & about 6 feet high.— From their dress &c &c they resembled the representations of Devils on the Stage, for instance in Der Freischutz.— The old man had a white feather cap; from under which, black long hair hung round his face.— The skin is dirty copper colour. Reaching from ear to ear & including the upper lip, there was a broard red coloured band of paint.— & parallel & above this, there was a white one; so that the eyebrows & eyelids were even thus coloured; the only garment was a large guanaco skin, with the hair outside.— This was merely thrown over their shoulders, one arm & leg being bare; for any exercise they must be absolutely naked.”
“Their very attitudes were abject, & the expression distrustful, surprised & startled:— Having given them some red cloth, which they immediately placed round their necks, we became good friends.— This was shown by the old man patting our breasts & making something like the same noise which people do when feeding chickens.— I walked with the old man & this demonstration was repeated between us several times: at last he gave me three hard slaps on the breast & back at the same time, & making most curious noises.— He then bared his bosom for me to return the compliment, which being done, he seemed highly pleased:— Their language does not deserve to be called articulate: Capt. Cook says it is like a man clearing his throat; to which may be added another very hoarse man trying to shout & a third encouraging a horse with that peculiar noise which is made in one side of the mouth.— Imagine these sounds & a few gutterals mingled with them, & there will be as near an approximation to their language as any European may expect to obtain.”
“Their chief anxiety was obtain knives; this they showed by pretending to have blubber in their mouths, & cutting instead of tearing it from the body.— they called them in a continued plaintive tone Cochilla,— probably a corruption from a Spanish word.— They are excellent mimics, if you cough or yawn or make any odd motion they immediately imitate you.— Some of the officers began to squint & make monkey like faces;— but one of the young men, whose face was painted black with white band over his eyes was most successful in making still more hideous grimaces.— When a song was struck up, I thought they would have fallen down with astonishment; & with equal delight they viewed our dancing and immediately began themselves to waltz with one of the officers.”
“They knew what guns were & much dreaded them, & nothing would tempt them to take one in their hands.— Jemmy Button came in the boat with us; it was interesting to watch their conduct to him.— They immediately perceived the difference & held much conversation between themselves on the subject.— The old man then began a long harangue to Jemmy; who said it was inviting him to stay with them:— but the language is rather different & Jemmy could not talk to them.— If their dress & appearance is miserable, their manner of living is still more so.”
“Their food chiefly consists in limpets & muscles, together with seals & a few birds; they must also catch occasionally a Guanaco. They seem to have no property excepting bows & arrows & spears: their present residence is under a few bushes by a ledge of rock: it is no ways sufficient to keep out rain or wind.— & now in the middle of summer it daily rains & as yet each day there has been some sleet.— The almost impenetrable wood reaches down to high water mark.— so that the habitable land is literally reduced to the large stones on the beach.— & here at low water, whether it may be night or day, these wretched looking beings pick up a livelihood.— I believe if the world was searched, no lower grade of man could be found.— The Southsea Islanders are civilized compared to them, & the Esquimaux, in subterranean huts may enjoy some of the comforts of life.”
“After dinner the Captain paid the Fuegians another visit.— They received us with less distrust & brought with them their timid children.— They noticed York Minster (who accompanied us) in the same manner as Jemmy, & told him he ought to shave, & yet he has not 20 hairs on his face, whilst we all wear our untrimmed beards.— They examined the color of his skin; & having done so, they looked at ours.— An arm being bared, they expressed the liveliest surprise & admiration.— Their whole conduct was such an odd mixture of astonishment & imitation, that nothing could be more laughable & interesting.— The tallest man was pleased with being examined & compared with a tall sea-man, in doing this he tried his best to get on rather higher ground & to stand on tip-toes: He opened his mouth to show his teeth & turned his face en profil; for the rest of his days doubtless he will be the beau ideal of his tribe.— Two or three of the officers, who are both fairer & shorter than the others (although possessed of large beards) were, we think, taken for Ladies.— I wish they would follow our supposed example & produce their “squaws”.— In the evening we parted very good friends; which I think was fortunate, for the dancing & “sky-larking” had occassionally bordered on a trial of strength.” (Dec 18)
FitzRoy describes several of the same things in his Narratives. I will share just one line, that I found particularly interesting. It is a little hard to follow, but I think (if I read it right) he is actually making a somewhat enlightened point for 1832:
quote:
“Disagreeable, indeed painful, as is even the mental contemplation of a savage, and unwilling as we may be to consider ourselves even remotely descended from human beings in such a state, the reflection that Cæsar found the Britons painted and clothed in skins, like these Fuegians, cannot fail to augment an interest excited by their childish ignorance of matters familiar to civilized man, and by their healthy, independent state of existence.” (Narratives, FitzRoy)
The thing that amazed Europeans the most about the Yahgans (and to some degree all the Fuegians) was their adaptations to the cold. Although it rained all the time, and temperatures were often in the 30’s and 40’s, the Yaghan people seemed completely comfortable with virtually no clothes, and often slept in the open and swam in the ocean. I swam in the ocean once in the Gulf of Alaska – I gotta say, it was the coldest water I have ever encountered. And I’ve swam in front of glaciers. It was the Yaghan women who foraged in the ocean – reportedly the men never learned to swim.
Aside from just being more adapted to cold, the Yaghans had several other ways of staying warm. For example, they reportedly coated themselves in animal grease or paint, and tended to squat on the ground reducing their overall surface area. In addition, they built shelters (such as the wigwams Darwin observed) and built fires (even in their canoes). It was these fires, along with signal fires used for communication that most likely gave Tierra del Fuego its name.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"the stature of the fuegians is generally from four feet ten inches to five feet six inches" pg 823 A Gazetteer of the World: Or, Dictionary of Geographical Knowledge, Volume 7
"the central portions of Tierra del fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceeds six feet" -julius popper
I noticed there is difference in their height
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
There were different tribes and are said to have difference in height, some in different locations
including the Ona (Selk'nam), Haush (Manek'enk), Yaghan (Yámana), and Alacaluf (Kawésqar).
Tierra del Fuego ; Spanish for "Land of Fire") is an archipelago off the southernmost tip of the South American mainland, across the Strait of Magellan. The archipelago consists of the main island, Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, with an area of 18,572 sq miles, and a group of many islands, including Cape Horn and Diego Ramírez Islands. Tierra del Fuego is divided between Chile and Argentina, with the latter controlling the eastern half of the main island and the former the western half plus the islands south of Beagle Channel. The southernmost extent of the archipelago is at about latitude 55 S.
The earliest known human settlement in Tierra del Fuego dates to around 8,000 B.C. Europeans first explored the islands during Ferdinand Magellan's expedition of 1520;
This region has a subpolar oceanic climate (Köppen climate classification Cfc) with short, cool summers and long, wet, moderately mild winters: the precipitation averages 3,000 mm (118 in) a year in the far west, but precipitation decreases rapidly to the eastern side. Temperatures are steady throughout the year: in Ushuaia they hardly surpass 9 °C (48 °F) in summers and average 0 °C (32 °F) in winters. Snowfall can occur in summer
Ushuaia is the capital of Tierra del Fuego, Antártida e Islas del Atlántico Sur Province, Argentina. It is commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world.
Ushuaia was founded informally by British missionaries, following previous British surveys, long before Argentine nationals or government representatives arrived there on a permanent basis. Vegetation around the city thus does not resemble typical tundra but is instead heavily forested
Ushuaia's industrial sector, led by the Grundig Renacer electronics factory, is among the largest in Patagonia. On December 29, 2009, the first same-sex couple to marry in Latin America were married in Ushuaia
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Back to Brazilians for a moment to clarify
One of the Amoretti French versions, this one with "woolly hair"
then after, compared to the original Italian untranslated Ambrosiana manuscript of Pigafetta, in old 16th century style Italian
Chacun porte chez soi la portion qui lui est échue, la fait sécher à la fumée, et chaque huitième jour il en fait rôtir un petit morceau pour le manger. J'ai appris ce fait de Jean Carvajo 20, notre pilote, qui avoit passé quatre ans au Brésil.
Les Brésiliens se peignent le corps et surtout le visage d'une étrange manière et de différentes façons, les femmes aussi bien que les hommes. Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux, et n'ont de poil sur aucune partie de leur corps, parce qu'ils s'épilent 21. Ils ont une espèce de veste faite de plumes de perroquet tissues ensemble, et arrangées de façon que les grandes pennes des ailes et de la queue leur forment un cercle sur les reins, ce qui leur donne une figure bisarre et ridicule. Presque tous les hommes ont la lèvre inférieure percée de trois trous par lesquels ils passent de petits cylindres de pierre longs de deux pouces. Les femmes et les enfans n'ont pas cet ornement incommode 22. Ajoutez à cela qu'ils sont entièrement nus par devant. Leur couleur est plutôt olivâtre que noire. Leur roi porte le nom de Cacique.
_____________________________________
English translation:
Each one carries home the portion that has fallen to him, dries it with smoke, and every eighth day he roasts a small piece to eat it. I learned this from Jean Carvajo 20, our pilot, who spent four years in Brazil.
Brazilians paint their bodies and especially their faces in a strange way and in different ways, women as well as men. They have short, woolly hair, and have no hair on any part of their body, because they epilate themselves. 21. They have a kind of jacket made of parrot feathers woven together, and arranged so that the large penises of the wings and the tail form a circle on the kidneys, which gives them a bitter and ridiculous figure. Almost all men have the lower lip pierced with three holes through which they pass small stone cylinders two inches long. Women and children do not have this inconvenient ornament. 22. Add to this that they are entirely bare in front. Their color is rather olive-colored than black. Their king is called Cacique.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: can someone find the Biblioteca Ambrosiana manuscript? Ill end the debate if anyone can find that manuscript
its too much controversy around the french version manuscripts
The Original text of the Amrbosian MS (In Italian, left pages, English Trans. at right ) The title pages here states "the Ambroisan MS" Some of the original handwritten pages can be seen on Getty Images. Below is the verbatim Italian exactly as on those pages
mangiorono et q^lli de que/ti /iche p que/to he venuta tal vzan/a. Non /e mangiano /ubito ma ogni vno taglia vno pezo et lo porta in ca/a metendola al fumo poi ogni 8. Jorni taglia vno pezeto mangian- dolo bruto lado c6 le altre cose p memoria degli /ui nemici Que/to me di//e Johane carnagio piloto q veniua c6 nuy el qHle era /tato in que/ta tera qua- tro anny Que/ta gente /e depingeno marauiglio- /amete tuto iL corpo et iL volto con foco in diuer/i a maniere ancho le done /ono [sono: doublet in orig- inal MS.^ to/i et /en/a barba perche /e la pelanno. Se ve/teno de ve/tituf de piume de papagalo c6 rode grande aL cuUo de Le penne magiore cosa ridicula ca/i tuti li homini eccepto le femine et f anciuli hano tre bu/i ne lauro de/oto oue portano pietre rotonde et Longue vno dito et piu et meno de fora pendente, no /onno del tuto negri ma oliua/tri portano
de/coperte le parte vergonio/e iL Suo corpo e /enza peli et co//i homini q^L donne Sempre Vano nudi iL Suo re e chiamato cacich anno infiniti//imi papagali et ne danno 8 ho lo p vno /pecho et gati
^ This 16th century Italian cannot be clearly translated by modern mechanical translators, above in the book is the James Alexander Robertson translation from the original Ambrosiana manuscript of Pigafetta, MS in Italian at left
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Original Ambrosiana manuscript of Pigafetta, in Italian with English translation at right
Description of Tierra Del Fugians
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Piraha@Brazil & Yahgan@Tierra del Fuego & Tasmanians & Ojibwe all used bark canoes, indicating that they were pioneers to the regions. Wood hull dugout canoes followed at a later period when the hafted adze evolved.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the lioness-"Original Ambrosiana manuscript of Pigafetta, in Italian with English translation at right"
what you presented is not the original manuscript
i want the original Italian manuscript not the printed version or copy
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
you are going to need tickets to Milan
While you're in Europe also stop off in Greece to back up all the Greek stuff you read in printed books and claimed to be what they said
Also, when you look at these things realize anybody could have written these things on paper and signed as so and so
Like the Gettysburg Address supposedly written in Lincoln's handwriting. How do we know that really is his handwriting ?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you are going to need tickets to Milan
While you're in Europe also stop off in Greece to back up all the Greek stuff you read in printed books and claimed to be what they said
Also, when you look at these things realize anybody could have written these things on paper and signed as so and so
Like the Gettysburg Address supposedly written in Lincoln's handwriting. How do we know that really is his handwriting ?
please stay focus we are checking to see if the document was not abridged or edited
none of the documents that you or Capra has shown mentions their hair texture
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you are going to need tickets to Milan
While you're in Europe also stop off in Greece to back up all the Greek stuff you read in printed books and claimed to be what they said
Also, when you look at these things realize anybody could have written these things on paper and signed as so and so
Like the Gettysburg Address supposedly written in Lincoln's handwriting. How do we know that really is his handwriting ?
please stay focus we are checking to see if the document was not abridged or edited
none of the documents that you or Capra has shown mentions their hair texture
I have some browser issues can you see both of these ?
^^^ there are some handwritten pages but I don't know how many. Look into this guetenberg.org and get back to me
_____________________________
The below is not handwritten but look at this again. I'm showing two French versions side by side followed by the Italian side by side with English next to it. These are the same areas of text describing these Brazilians. Notice the key to all this being this same area in the text is one of the two mentions of the pilot in various spellings Iehan Caruagio aka Jean Carvajo aka Johanne Carnagio
and the other key is the plumes of the parrot. That name and the plumes of the parrot are in all of these texts. If you look at the right hand aside of the two French versions we have
FRENCH
"Ils ont les cheveux courts laineux, et n'on de poil sur aucune partie de leur corps parce qu'ils s'épilent."
ENGLISH
"They have woolly short hair, and do not have hair on any part of their body because they are plucked."
^^^ That english is not in the book, I did that on a translator. If you go to the left side which is another French version I have trouble transcribing that I suggest you try it. It's not the same wording but both of these versions are in French.
The place we are looking at in the test is after Johanne Carnagio is mentioned but before the parrot plumes.
Below the two French versions is the old Italian with English also in the book
ITALIAN
Que/ta gente /e depingeno marauiglio- /amete tuto iL corpo et iL volto con foco in diuer/i a maniere ancho le done /ono [sono: doublet in orig- inal MS.^ to/i et /en/a barba perche /e la pelanno.
ENGLISH
Those people paint the whole body and the face in a wonderful manner with firs in various fashions as the women do. The men are [ are: doublet in original manuscript] smooth shaven and have no beard for they pull it out. ________________
So we have what seems to be a similar amount of description but one of the French versions seems to be talking about short woolly hair.
Narrative and Critical History of America, Volume 2 edited by Justin Winsor, 1896
I believe that one of the French versions it is either a mistake, an embellishment or is some condition of straight hair that when short and is either uncombed or has some additive in it,
I say this because I have noticed that these Brazilian indigenous people always seem to have this very straight type of hair and some of these groups have been very isolated from modern people until very recently
You might also consider looking for a handwritten version of the French version where "wooly" hair is mentioned rather than a printed version you found
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
^^^ I don't want to base anything off of a hunch. This subject would not be conclusive to me unless i see the original Italian manuscript.
Did Justin Winsor see the original? Unless he had, he is in no position to say what is a mistake or not.
Amoretti seen the original however.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I don't think the wooly hair quote is a lie as the moors would still be fresh in the minds of the Euros at that time, unless they are referencing a decorative object then I'm inclined to assume they meant hair.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ^^^ I don't want to base anything off of a hunch. This subject would not be conclusive to me unless i see the original Italian manuscript.
Did Justin Winsor see the original? Unless he had, he is in no position to say what is a mistake or not.
^^^ Did you look at these links with handwritten pages on them?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
This quote would not be conclusive to me unless i see the original French manuscript.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
This quote would not be conclusive to me unless i see the original French manuscript.
same here... Do you have any primary sources supporting that pigafetta understood or wrote in french?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
^^^ Did you look at these links with handwritten pages on them?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
^^^ Did you look at these links with handwritten pages on them?
which hand written document are you referring to in the links?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
^^^ Did you look at these links with handwritten pages on them?
which hand written document are you referring to in the links?
is the first link not an image of a handwritten document?
Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
To lioness & Mr. Clyde Winters
The Onawo people found in Patagonia which their picture was taken by Martín Gusinde in 1919, are direct related to the African "Pende people" which live in Ngashi region-Congo. Some of them, left Africa 40 thousand years ago, and settled in Australia. In Australia they became the "Emu" people.
The Emu people of Australia, built large ships designed specifically to cross oceans and high seas, and to deal with large waves. You can see their ancient ships on Australia Rock paintings, which was dated as many thousands of years old. The Emu people of Australia, arrived in Patagonia by ship, by crossing the Pacific Ocean. They became miscegenated after the arrival of Mongoloid people.
In Patagonia the Emu people of Australia became Onawo people. However, the Pende people of Congo, the Emu, of Australia, and Onawo people of Patagonia, which belong to the same African ancestor, still painting their bodies with the same white color, and the same geometric design patterns. Anatomically, they still almost identical, even after thousands of years of interbreeding with different homo species.
Pende=Emu=Onawo.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Linda Fahr: To lioness & Mr. Clyde Winters
The Onawo people found in Patagonia which their picture was taken by Martín Gusinde in 1919, are direct related to the African "Pende people" which live in Ngashi region-Congo. Some of them, left Africa
PENDE, Congo . Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
To lioness
The first picture you posted of Onawo male from Tierra del Fuego, doesn't looks like he has any admixture of Pende people. By he's facial symmetry and anatomy, he looks like he was mixed race of a mongoloid great grandmother with a Dutch sailor, which arrived in the region in 1600s AD.
Now..the Amerindian girl, certainly she is related to Pende people...
By the way...this African Pende male on the picture, is absolutely gorgeous. He has perfect facial symmetry. Beautiful big round eyes, perfect well developed homo sapiens lips and nose....Image the reaction of Neanderthal females, when he first out of Africa, arrived in the Middle East and beyond?...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
Now..the Amerindian girl, certainly she is related to Pende people...
The woman has straight hair. The Pende don't. Many Asians have flat noses and full lips yet are less genetically similar to Africans than are Europeans. Overlapping features between ethnic groups do not predict ancestry
I think you should search and study more about South American tribes, their origins, culture, interbreeding, and their phenotypes.
Tribes of South America, are an admixture of many peoples from Asia and Pacific Islands, which settled in Patagonia, South of South America, and Pacific coastal regions of South America and Africans which arrived from Atlantic Ocean and settle in North of South America and Central America.
The Onawo tribes in question, settled in the Patagonia Region, migrated from Northeastern of China, which were light skinned people. Actually they were white skinned, thick straight dark hair, and characterized by their Epicanthic fold - tight mongoloid eyes feature. And Australoids from the Pacific Islands, which the Pende people were one of their ancestors, including Aborigine Emu tribe from Australia which migrated to Patagonia as well.
There were over a dozen of tribes living in Patagonia region by the time the first European arrived in the 1500s. They were all related. Their phenotypes depended on degree of miscegenation among Australoids and light skineed Mongoloids tribes.
In South America countries of Uruguay, Paraguay and Brazil, pure African descendants of African slaves, married females from light skinned mongoloids tribes.
For example: A female of Mongoloid tribe member, married to an African slave descendant had 5 children. Some of their children born with straight dark thick hair and brown or light skin. Others born with curly or afro hair with black or dark brown skin. Some born with full developed African lips, others born with thin Mongoloid lips, or median size lips. Their eyes also varies in sizes and shapes, as well their heights, and so on...Therefore, before you write and want to imposed your own conclusions, you must acknowledge humans phenotypes results from miscegenations among South American mongoloid, Australoids tribes and Africans.
Now...I think you must updated yourself on DNA results of Australoids people mentioned by S.O.Y keita...because new DNA results from 2016 proved to be otherwise. Beside African Homo Sapiens, Australoids people has DNAs of Denisovan, Neanderthal, and another unidentified hominid. As I wrote about Pende people interbreed with different hominids species in his way out of Africa. Therefore, they are African descents as well.
Pacific Islanders Appear to Be Carrying The DNA of an Unknown Human Species
A third extinct human relative. BEC CREW 25 OCT 2016
Now...I don't want to imposed my theory on anybody, which is, that an unidentified hominid in fact evolved from Orangutan, which is now native of Indonesia and Malaysia.
As a matter of facts, after European geneticists DNA tests in Europe started, they very quickly elevated Orangutan status to primate, and member of humans ancestors.
Observing dark skinned Australoid people with red hair, it was my conclusion.
By the way...Happy Holidays to everybody...I am gone for now...
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by capra: Don't have any.
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
^^^ Did you look at these links with handwritten pages on them?
which hand written document are you referring to in the links?
is the first link not an image of a handwritten document?
Show me
You still have not shown me any primary source where pigafetta understood or wrote in french. The manuscripts you provided were created by copyist.(possibly abridge versions)
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
These are the problems with pigafetta's french manuscripts.
1. The French manuscripts that were presented does not mention the hair texture of the natives of Brazil. As careful historians, we must be sure that these manuscripts are not abridged versions of pigafetta's original work.
2. The writer of the french manuscript is assumed (on this forum)to be pigafetta himself, however we need primary sources to support such a claim. Primary sources that support pigafetta writing in french or that he personally wrote in french to give to monarchs of France.
3. The original Italian manuscript would be conclusive in supporting the 3 french manuscripts. Cross referencing them would be crucial in concluding how identical the french manuscript are to the original Italian. Without the Italian manuscript we cannot conclude that the french manuscript is identical to the original.
4. The french manuscripts are believed by many historians to be mere copies of the original french manuscript.(that is now lost) read page 18 of Magellan's Voyage: A Narrative Account of the First Circumnavigation By Antonio Pigafetta edited by R.A. skelton. (These 3 french manuscripts could be an abridge version of the original french manuscript. Now lost)
The argument is not rather the manuscripts are true to the original. (as the lioness continues to deflect towards) The arguement is rather the French manuscript is an abridge version of the original. As was previously pointed out, hair texture was never mentioned in any of the french manuscripts.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] These are the problems with pigafetta's french manuscripts.
1. The French manuscripts that were presented does not mention the hair texture of the natives of Brazil.
what you presented that did was in French, wtf?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
i want the original Italian manuscript not the printed version or copy
what you presented was printed, wtf ?
You are saying hair texture was mentioned in French, printed in a book and haven't even presented a hand written version of it
Also you don't seem to know what embellishment is, you assume everything is abridgment
Now go off and try to find some handwritten documents, why should I go looking for something you should be presenting ?
Another problem you have is if looking at a hand written document in an old version of a language you might not know how to translate it or know where the relevant potion of text occurs
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] These are the problems with pigafetta's french manuscripts.
1. The French manuscripts that were presented does not mention the hair texture of the natives of Brazil.
what you presented that did was in French, wtf?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
i want the original Italian manuscript not the printed version or copy
what you presented was printed, wtf ?
You are saying hair texture was mentioned in French, printed in a book and haven't even presented a hand written version of it
Also you don't seem to know what embellishment is, you assume everything is abridgment
Now go off and try to find some handwritten documents, why should I go looking for something you should be presenting ?
Another problem you have is if looking at a hand written document in an old version of a language you might not know how to translate it or know where the relevant potion of text occurs
How would you know it was embellished if you have never seen the original?
if you can show the original Italian than this argument would be more conclusive.
we can't say for certain that the woolly description was not in the original.
Carlo Amoretti claims to have seen the original. unless you have evidence from Amoretti himself that the french text had been embellished, you should not say or assume it was.
Even if it was embellished why would he use woolly hair instead of straight hair?
Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
To Mr. Clyde Winters,
As I know you are Historian, I am posting links of the University of Brasilia - Brazil, studies done of South American Amerindian Tribes. Their names, culture, origin, interbreed with other existent tribes already settled in South America by the time of their arrival.
It is mostly related to Tupi-Guarani peoples, which arrived in South America by waves between 4000 and 500 years before European arrival in The America Continent.
Many of these people, left China, Mongolia, Japan India, during their ancient wars among their kingdoms, and foreign invasions.
I also think you would like to know more about Tupi-Guarani people, and their ancestors in Asia. One of their Ancestors is the Ainu people, actually living in regions of Japan and Siberia - Russia, and how they are related by Macro-Jê linguistic.
Japonese Tupi English kabe acapê wall ame ama rain anya anhá darkining arashi arassy storm kashi caxi sweets kuri curi cashew mi mi-mi seeds tataku tataca to snap sumire sumarê wild flowers ai-shuu au-ssub deep affection, profound love agete ajete certainly aranu rana false, wrong arai ara-á restless ari ayri J – ant T – small ao-mi o-bi J – greenish T – green ai-zou a-jó J – garded T – bag, sac ai ai-ai interval
I am adding an extra information of relations between Tupi-Guarani Amerindians tribes in Brazil and South America to tribes living in Philippines, ancient Greeks during 400BC, Cameroon-Africa, the Avar people from North Caucasus, and ancient Sumeria. Tupi-Guarani, is an federation of over hundred tribes which speak related languages, called "Tupi-Guarani".
List of South America Tupi-Gurani tribes related to those ancient peoples.
Kawayan people of Municipality of Bangued - Philippines and their African origins in Bangué Village located in the region Boumba-et-Ngoko - Yokadouma,Cameroon Africa. In this African region are native names such as -Yoko, Yum, Mindoriu, Yaounde and many more.
Monderun, Tupi-Guarani Tribe in Brazil related to Mindoriu - Cameroon.
Mbayae tribe Tupi-Guranai- related to Mbo people of Cameroon - West Africa.
Tupi-Guarani tribe Carios in English Carians also ancient Greek people.
Kadiweus or Caduceus Tupi-Gurani tribe, also related to ancient ancient Greek mythology.
Assurini - Tupi Guarani tribe - related to Assyrians. Is well known that Assyrians were in South America in ancient times.
This is few of South American tribe names, which arrived in South America, by Sea, from the Atlantic, and Pacific Ocean,l and ater on by the Bering Strait.
Interestingly also, is that other Tupi- Guarani tribe in Brazil given name such as Bang-u region name in North Eastern China, with is associate to Africa name Bangue.
Some tribes of Tupi-Guarani people are farmers. Their crops are cotton, corn, potatoes, cassava, nuts, fruits, and so on...Their farming methods are the same as Indians from India.Every year After harvest, they burn their farming lands.
Below is the two links from the Brasilia University.
Manifesto Antropofagico: Tupi, or not tupi that is the question
Tribos Indígenas Brasileiras que falam o Tupi-Guarani http://gestaotupii.blogspot.com/ Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
Ops, I forgot to write about the Tupi-Guranani people called "Ava" which means "Man".
Nowadays the majority of them, are an admixture with other tribes. They are living in Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and Brazil.
The origin of Ava people in South America is unknown. What I knew about them, was that initially they were living in South of Argentina. Then, they migrated north and settled beside other tribes in different regions of South America.
Some of them, still black skinned, large flat face, straight hair, with average height 6'5 tall. They are not ugly, and anatomically proportional. They are naturally arrogant people.
The ones that did not mixed with other local tribes, are living in urban regions. I personally meet few of them. One, was living in Argentina, when he was visiting Rio de Janeiro-Brazil
In South America, in the past, they allied themselves with the Spaniards, against other tribes, and the Portuguese Army. They are known as well as Ava canoeiros, because they construct large canoes which can transport between 30 to 50 people at once.
Amazingly, I meet another one as well in Aberdeen Scotland. At first, I couldn't believe how the same human ethnicity was living in such different regions of the World. The one I meet in Scotland, told me, he was descendant of Asian Avar people, which was originally from North of Mongolia - Siberia, which started migrating west in 300ad, They were allies of the Huns which invaded Europe.
I also meet a community of them in south France. They were living in isolation. The males were very tall, but females were short. They were all dark skinned people, straight hair, arrogant and racists. Seems to me, that the people living in South France, was an admixture, of taller Avar males, with short Indian females, which arrived in the region from west of Pakistan, during Islamic conquest of Central Asia and India.
Therefore, my conclusion is that the black skinned people of South Argentina, which migrated to north of South America, were in fact, an ancient people of Eastern Asia. They were the result of mixed race among tall Africans from the Omo River Valley which migrated to Asia thru Ethiopia long ago, and mixed themselves with mongoloids producing tall males with dark skin and straight hair.
It is possible they left Eastern Asia, during war, or local invasion. Some migrated North, settled in North and Eastern of Mongolia, then later on migrated to Europe thru central Asia with the Huns. Another group went southeastern toward Japan, and from there sailed to South America, where they first settled in South of Argentina, and live as "wild men" in extreme cold weather over 800 years.
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